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The Jamie Kern Lima Show
Success Leaves Clues! Incredible Women’s Stories & The Power of Yours w/ Norah O’Donnell Pt 2
01:22:47
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- [00:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Interviewing every single living president, sitting down intimately with them. Is there any observations you've had that they maybe all have in common?
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Norah O'Donnell
Oh, Jamie, these are really good questions. A full sense of. It's like something you can almost smell
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Jamie Kern Lima
when you are prepping for an interview. Let's take the recent one with Donald Trump. How do you prep for that?
- [00:26]
Norah O'Donnell
The press is a check on power. Another journalist texted me as soon as that interview aired on 60 Minutes and said, Bravo, that's the toughest interview in the world.
- [00:38]
Podcast Narrator
Welcome to the worldwide premiere of Norah o' Donnell in her first ever podcast interview. Coming up in this incredible part two
- [00:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
episode, how has a president saying fake news impacted journalists and impacted your experience?
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Podcast Narrator
You know her from her iconic history making interviews on CBS and 60 Minutes.
- [01:06]
Norah O'Donnell
What are you doing as president to end the shutdown?
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Podcast Narrator
To being one of only three women in our history to solo anchor the primetime evening network news. And today, for the first time ever, she's agreed to be the one getting interviewed. And I am so honored, excited, and truly so grateful that she is here in person with you and me today for her first ever podcast interview.
- [01:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
Have you had a world leader that you've sat down with try to tell you what questions you can and can't ask or try to edit it afterwards?
- [01:44]
Norah O'Donnell
I have not personally ever been in this situation. Have I felt pressure? Sure. But have I ever been in the situation where I had to compromise my integrity? No. And when and if that happens, I will speak publicly about it.
- [02:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
So no one said you have to cut this out or edit that out?
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Norah O'Donnell
No.
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Jamie Kern Lima
That you interviewed?
- [02:06]
Norah O'Donnell
No. No, never.
- [02:13]
Jamie Kern Lima
I think there's a. A newer feeling out there. Or maybe it's a newer fear that the media is being censored now or edited. Yeah.
- [02:30]
Norah O'Donnell
Not in my work.
- [02:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you believe the guardrails of democracy, of our Constitution, will hold?
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Norah O'Donnell
The president deserves credit for shutting down the border. He ran on that. People elected him for that and he's largely shut down the border. Now the question, I think for voters, is this now an overreach and will the president's party be voted out of Congress as a result?
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Jamie Kern Lima
Interviewing so many of the world's leaders. Have you ever been scared in an interview?
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Norah O'Donnell
Yes.
- [03:07]
Jamie Kern Lima
Have you ever sat across from someone and just knew they were lying through their teeth?
- [03:13]
Norah O'Donnell
Sure, of course. I met with a senior man at CBS and he said to me, and I felt the blood like rush up my neck and I blurted out and said, do you ask men that question? And I got in the car and I called my husband I said, that guy is a jerk. And he was like, oh, first of all, it's illegal for them to ask you that. I said, I'm not taking the deal unless you pay me the same amount as the man on that show. Because I knew he was the highest paid person on the show. And they said, we can't do that. I said, why not? And they said, well, because he's, you know, this person. I said, well, then I don't want the job. So I got paid the same.
- [04:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Will you ever run for office? You're hearing it here first. You're hearing it here first.
- [04:07]
Norah O'Donnell
There needs to be more women in power and there needs to be more women in political office. The moment we're cynical and give up, the moment I stop asking tough questions or stop doing investigative work, then we're in trouble. CBS is a great organization made up of really strong journalists who work really, really hard.
- [04:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you ever feel any pressure to share your opinion or to give commentary or. None at all?
- [04:33]
Norah O'Donnell
No. And I don't. I mean, I mean, sometimes I'm on podcasts where people start asking, I don't
- [04:39]
Podcast Narrator
know what you're talking about.
- [04:40]
Norah O'Donnell
I have no idea.
- [04:42]
Podcast Narrator
And over her decades long distinguished career, award winning journalist Norah o' Donnell has also made it her mission to shed light on untold women's stories. Now, in honor of America's 250th birthday, she's focusing that passion on American heroines who helped change the course of history. In her brand new book, we the Women, the Hidden Heroes who Shaped America, we the Women presents a fresh look at American history through the eyes of women, introducing us to inspiring patriots who demanded that the country live up to the promises made 250 years ago in the Declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights,
- [05:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
that among these are life, liberty and
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Podcast Narrator
the pursuit of happiness. Since the signing of that document, Nora says the pressing question from women has been, why don't those unalienable rights apply to us?
- [05:43]
Jamie Kern Lima
I have to say, when you get this book home and read it for
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Podcast Narrator
yourself, it will ignite a strength and conviction in you that for me feels, feels so exciting and so needed. I am such a believer that we can learn from and be inspired by and borrow courage from other people's stories. Nora o' Donnell has flown across the country to be here with you and me today in her first ever long form sit down interview where she's the one in the hot seat. And I am so excited for this conversation and for this worldwide premiere of Nora o' Donnell on the Jamie Kern Lima Show. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima show podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. And can you take two seconds and hit the subscribe or follow button on the app you're listening or watching on? It truly means the world to me. You can also get inspiration from me right to you for free in your inbox. Just join my newsletter community@jamiekernlima.com and this incredible podcast episode. It's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know who might need some inspiration today. Perhaps a boost in their self belief or some belief in their own story
- [06:57]
Jamie Kern Lima
and the power of it. Because what you're about to hear can
- [07:00]
Podcast Narrator
truly impact mine, yours and their life too.
- [07:04]
Norah O'Donnell
Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
- [07:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oprah, how have you defied the.
- [07:11]
Norah O'Donnell
Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation. When you listen, it feels like a hug.
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Podcast Narrator
First Lady Michelle Obama.
- [07:20]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie, you are going so deep. I have never had this in depth conversation.
- [07:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
I've actually never said that out loud
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Norah O'Donnell
to anybody in an interview before. You know how to get there. Your brain and your spirit and your heart is like wow.
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Podcast Narrator
Melinda French Gates.
- [07:39]
Norah O'Donnell
When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her.
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Podcast Narrator
Megan, Duchess of Sussex. I wasn't expecting that one.
- [07:49]
Norah O'Donnell
I could see the light around her. She's infused with light.
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Podcast Narrator
Maria Shriver.
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Norah O'Donnell
I never made that mistake again.
- [07:57]
Podcast Narrator
Imagine overcoming self doubt. Learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
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Norah O'Donnell
Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life.
- [08:13]
Jamie Kern Lima
Jamie Ker Lima.
- [08:17]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima. We have had a lot of leadership changes at CBS and that has been challenging not only for me, but I know for my colleagues. And I think with so many leadership changes, people are fearful about what the future means. And look, anything I can do, I will do because I am so. I think the role of the press is so incredibly important now always. CBS is a great organization made up of really strong, strong journalists who work really, really hard. We have some great programs as you know, but for some reason there seems to be a lot of attention on the leadership changes at cbs. And I honestly, I try and focus on what I can focus on which is my work and I don't mean to at all mean to like, avoid your question. I'm not at all. I just have been. I've actually dealt with a lot of different leadership changes. And through it all I've said I can only control what I can control, which is the work that we do and the quality of work that we have and the integrity our team has. And, you know, it's like blinders on. Do the work, head down. That's my motto. My dad always says just keep plugging along. The quality of your work speaks for itself. Keep plugging along.
- [09:48]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you feel like journalism as a whole is under attack?
- [09:51]
Norah O'Donnell
Of course, yes, absolutely. And you know what? That's unfortunate. I think also too that there's people are confusing what is the media and what are journalists. So, you know, a lot of people can be part of social media who are not, you know, who are, you know, doing opinion.
- [10:18]
Podcast Narrator
Yes.
- [10:19]
Norah O'Donnell
Or other things. That's different than being a journalist. Right. Where we have very strict standards and practices that we certainly try and follow. You know, where our reputation, integrity lives on through different administrations, through all sorts of different people. So, you know, I think that people get confused about what the media is versus what a journalist. Like that. I sort of the type of journalism that I do and that we do at CBS News. So, you know, and the work that we should do should be. We should try and carry it out in the way that builds the most trust. And that's certainly what, you know, I try and do and work with people who feel the same way with just
- [10:59]
Jamie Kern Lima
the fragmentation of information just everywhere. Like you said, the fire hose coming at us. I mean, there's so many people now taking health advice or medical advice or this or that from people. They have no idea what they're talking about. They're just really good at talking about it. It's just everywhere. And journalism, much like would you go if you have, God forbid, a health issue and you go to a doctor or a surgeon to handle it, you don't go to someone who's really great
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Podcast Narrator
at talking about it on the Internet
- [11:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
and has an opinion about it, but has actually never done the thing that they're talking about. And to your point, many years ago, long before I was an entrepreneur, I worked in television news and one man band reported. And our standards, even at the small markets that I was in, I made it up to Portland, Oregon, which I guess that's a great market, a bigger market, but the standards were so high, if we got one fact wrong or if anyone said an opinion, I mean, it was a huge deal. There's A correction made or you could get fired. I mean, it was the standards of integrity of excellence. They're so high. When you're a journalist and you have been in this position across multiple administrations, how has a president saying that everything is fake news impacted journalists and impacted your experience?
- [12:22]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, look, I mean, again, because I've been involved in political journalism and covering White Houses, the press always has somewhat of a contentious relationship with figures in power. That is true. Has it become more contentious? Yes. Is journalism under attack? Yes. Is truth under attack? Yes. Is it my job still to try and show up and ask tough questions every day?
- [12:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [12:54]
Norah O'Donnell
And trying to continue to report the facts? Yes. And that's what I try and do. You know, I also think there is a role for journalists in this, too, which is to make sure that we get the facts right, too. And I see so many journalists out there every day doing the hard work to present the facts. And so whether it's through great research or fact checking or video evidence, you know, journalists are doing the work. And that's what makes. That's what makes freedom of the press a really important job. And I do want people to trust and have trusted sources of the media. We're in the business of information, not affirmation. But that doesn't mean that can't exist. I mean, a newspaper has the hard news in the front and has opinion on the editorial page, and I read both, and different newspapers have different editorial pages. And I watch cable channels that tend more conservative, and I watch cable channels that tend more liberal. I watch it all. I do, because I am listening all the time. I'm listening all the time to try and make sure that I ask the right questions of the people in power. The best thing I can do is that someone who's attacked the press or who doesn't trust the media or whatever says, that was a really good interview or I learned something from your interview that I didn't know before.
- [14:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
Have you had a world leader that you've sat down with try to tell you what questions you can and can't ask or try to edit it afterwards?
- [14:40]
Norah O'Donnell
So this is a good. This is a good question, and I think it will help clear up some misunderstanding. I think people think that we give somebody the questions in advance, which would be against standards. And so we never do that. We never do that. Now, do people try and influence, like, I mean, do the press people call up the producers and say, are you going to ask about this? Are you going to ask about that? You know, we say, well, we're going to ask whatever's in the news that day, you know, but we certainly don't, you know, give questions in advance. But there's certainly, you know, both sides certainly try and influence that. But I've. Me, personally, no, except I'll tell you a funny story. For 10 years, I had been trying to get the interview with Pope Francis, and I'm not joking. The night before, one of the producers involved, who had quit smoking, then picked up smoking back again because they'd gotten a call from the Vatican saying they're asking for us to give them the questions. And we said, we don't do that at cbs. And they said, well, then the interview's off. Now, when you're in Rome, crews have come in from all over the world. It's a very expensive operation. So this producer started, you know, lit up a cigarette because, you know, and I said, you know what? Let me take care of this. And I met. Went and met with that person and this Vatican official, and I had faith that I could fix it. And I meant a conviction that if I explained exactly what it was, and I said, what's the issue? This is going to be great. Tomorrow we're going to talk about Pope Francis legacy, you know, And I just had a nice conversation, and interview was back on. So we never gave up our integrity, and it never became really much of an issue. So that's just an effort at communication. But I have not personally ever been in this situation. Have I felt pressure? Sure. But I've ever been in the situation where I had to compromise my integrity. No. And when. And if that happens, I will speak publicly about it.
- [16:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
So no one said, you have to cut this out or edit that out?
- [16:57]
Norah O'Donnell
No.
- [16:58]
Jamie Kern Lima
That you interviewed?
- [16:59]
Norah O'Donnell
No. No, never.
- [17:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
I think there's a newer feeling out there, or maybe it's a newer fear that the media is being censored now or edited. Yeah,
- [17:24]
Norah O'Donnell
not in my work. I can't speak for everybody that's, you know, everybody that's doing a taped interview or a live interview or whatever it may be. But for me, I can speak about myself, and I have not been pressured to do that.
- [17:41]
Jamie Kern Lima
While we have this opportunity, I would love, Nora, for you to speak your truth on the importance of the freedom of press. Because I think a lot of people are getting this confused now, and they think, oh, I'm all for freedom of speech, but, oh, everything's fake news. And I think the average American is busy. They're trying to afford their groceries right now and figure out, okay, do I pick between my insulin medication or my kids activities, they're so busy that it's so easy to get lost in all the noise of going yeah, okay I'm for freedom of speech, but oh yeah, I hear things. The importance can you explain from your perspective? And obviously there's so many stories and we the women that talk about the power of your voice, whether it's you listening or watching us right now at home. Your voice, your story. But freedom of the press? Why to the everyday American is it so important we protect that?
- [18:42]
Podcast Narrator
We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today, to keep going, to remember that
- [18:59]
Jamie Kern Lima
they matter, and to feel less alone
- [19:00]
Podcast Narrator
and more enough, more connected, more inspired and more worthy. In life you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results. Like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you, it's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more. Especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show Notes do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your Life. It's called 5 Ways to Overcome Negative Self Talk and Build self Love and it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life, one filled with self love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams. You can grab your free guide to Stop overthinking and learn to Trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together.
- [23:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
Freedom of the Press. Why to the everyday American is it so important we protect that?
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Norah O'Donnell
Well, the freedom of the press is enshrined in the Constitution. It's the First Amendment and the press is a check on power. And the way the Constitution was set up was the three branches of government where Congress and the Judiciary and the Executive branch would be a check right on power. And then the Bill of Rights came, which by the way the secret muse of the Bill of Rights was woman by the way, Mercy Otis Warren. This was anti federalist right. There shouldn't be so much protection in the federal government. So let's have a Bill of Rights that protects immigration, individual rights and the very first Amendment includes freedom of the press so that we can be a check on the powerful, that we can help inform the electorate. And since the beginning of time in American democracy there have been pamphleteers who are opinions on different sides, and the press has been threatened over time. Are we at a moment now where the press is, the freedom of the press is under attack. Absolutely. You don't need me to tell you that. That's clear. But is the press out there doing their job every day? Yes. Are they fighting in court to make sure that they can still do that? Yes. So I'm incredibly hopeful about that. You know, and, you know, in this particular administration and President Trump White House press corps is still in there every day. Are they getting pushback? Yes. Are they still in there shouting questions every day? Yeah, they are getting access and asking tough questions. Is there pushback from the administration? Sure, that's. That's healthy. Does it get uncomfortable at times? Yeah. Do the press get threatened? Yeah, that's bad. But it's hard. It's really hard for journalists. But I see a lot of journalists doing great work and trying to do it with integrity. And, you know, the work I'm trying to do is the toughest interviews in the world. And that people, no matter what their political view, will learn something from it and be able to respect it.
- [25:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
Thank you for what you do.
- [25:47]
Norah O'Donnell
It's an honor and a privilege. It really is. And it is an honor and a privilege, and I don't take it
- [25:57]
Jamie Kern Lima
lightly. What you just said is so important. I have five families. I'm adopted. I think about, you know, you know, I waitressed at Denny's. I think about all the people I've come in contact with in my life. My family votes. They all vote very different. They all disagree on issues. And the thing I love most about it is I get to understand. I'm like, how in the world could you believe what you believe? And they'll tell me all about it. But I love it because I feel like I get a. Of sense. Sense of understanding, like you said earlier, people that don't agree with what I agree on, and I think the message of the importance, which may seem so obvious to you, but so many people are inundated with information. It's been a whole long time since they've even been thinking about the Constitution or their rights. And, you know, the importance, with everything going on in our world right now of the reminder of the importance of the freedom of the press being a
- [26:54]
Norah O'Donnell
check on power and not by just my own viewpoint. Constitutionally, yes. Right. This was part of the founding of America. So that's not just my view. I mean, that is. The freedom of the press is enshrined in the Constitution as a check on the powerful and that's where we get information. Think about all the great investigative reporting that has been through time that has exposed abuse, whether it's in the Catholic Church, you know, which I grew up in, or whether it's government abuse of power, or whether it's stuff that's carried out, war crimes over time, or US Involvement in wars overseas where blood and treasure is spent, or over how our veterans are treated. All that great investigative work, or all the investigative work that our team has done about sexual abuse and assault in the military that women face that led to real change in the US Military. So that work continues. When you are a check on power, there comes a lot of pushback with that. It's not easy.
- [28:05]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Norah O'Donnell
But I do think a lot of people watch the news. They do. And read the news and are interested in the news, and it helps inform them, and they. And why? Because people care about what's happening in the world.
- [28:18]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [28:19]
Norah O'Donnell
They care about their communities. They care about their own paychecks. And I think that's ultimately a good thing. And I hope that certainly, again, I can only speak for myself, is that I try in the roles that I've had, whether it was anchoring the morning show or anchoring the evening news or. Now my job at 60 Minutes or the stories we do for Sunday morning, is to report the news in the fairest way possible.
- [28:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [28:46]
Norah O'Donnell
Without pulling any punches.
- [28:48]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you ever feel pressure, now that some networks. I know, there's the front of the paper, hard news, the back. That's opinion. And do you feel like a lot of those lines have been blurred? And do you ever feel any pressure to share your opinion or to give commentary or. None at all.
- [29:07]
Norah O'Donnell
No. And I don't. I mean. I mean, sometimes I'm on podcasts where
- [29:11]
Jamie Kern Lima
people start asking, I don't know what you're talking about.
- [29:15]
Norah O'Donnell
I have no idea. No. Because I really. I mean, honestly, I think a lot like you, Jamie. Like, I'm from a military family. I grew up in Texas. My best friends live all over the country, have voted lots of different ways.
- [29:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
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Norah O'Donnell
I talk to so many people, you know, whether they're business owners. I travel the country so much. I travel the world. And so I really do, again, because. So listening is so important. I can really, I do honestly feel like I hear people. So it's not my job to have an opinion. It's my job to ask tough questions and maybe help lead people in a way that helps them explore their own beliefs or their own views. It's my job to help try and Present the facts as best as we can, present them. Information that exists. And I do believe in the power of facts.
- [30:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
When you are prepping for an interview, let's take the recent one with Donald Trump. When you're prepping for an interview like that, how do you prep? How do you prep for that?
- [30:18]
Norah O'Donnell
It's a great question because as a friend of mine who's another journalist texted me as soon as that interview aired on 60 Minutes and said, bravo, that's the toughest interview in the world. And I prep for an interview like that every day because I read three hard copies of newspapers I'm constantly reading online. I'm talking to people, whether it's on Capitol Hill, Republicans, Democrats, talking to people all the time. So I'm prepping every day for the biggest interviews in the world. But we only had a 48 hours notice for that interview. I actually happened to be outside of Seattle when I got the call. Can you be in Palm beach in 48 hours for an interview on Halloween? So I have to have a reservoir of knowledge. And then there's an incredible team at 60 minutes and my team and we get into a room and try and get to, you know, in a limited amount of time that you have, try and touch on what are the toughest issues of our time, the domestic ones, the foreign policy issues, and present them in a way that provides information and facts, not assumption and bias. I think if you were to look really closely at the way I ask a question too. I think in particular the question that I asked about immigration tactics, I asked in a way, I said, people are watching mothers being thrown to the ground, windows being punched through. Are you okay with those tactics? And the President said, yes, I am. But we showed the pictures of what people are seeing. I asked him if it was okay that families of veterans, landscapers and others were being round up people who were not necessarily criminals and that you can watch that exchange. So as much as you can in a question, if you can present the facts, and that's, I think, a way to do it, an interview of that nature.
- [32:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
In all the interviews you've done, a couple fun questions to ask you. So you've interviewed every living president. And I'm so curious because you know how earlier I was able to say, like, oh, your eyes lit up when you talked about Gail, or, you know, you just, it's in person special because you feel that person's heart. You feel if you trust them. And so interviewing every single living president, sitting down intimately with them, is there any observations you've had that they maybe all have in common or that there's something about them in a room that feels like different or special or a through line or an observation. So curious about this.
- [33:09]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, Jamie, these are really good questions. You know, I think it takes a certain person to become president of the United States. Campaigning for President of the United States is really hard. And I've been watching it since 2000, because my first I covered a little bit of Bill Clinton. I was still. When I was at Georgetown, I went and was an intern and, you know, went to go see him in office and then covered the tail end of his presidency, but was really started covering, you know, George W. Bush in 2000 and a lot of that contest and on since then, have watched a lot of these candidates on the road. It's the hardest job in the world, being President of the United States. It's tough campaigning. And so it takes a certain person to run for president of the United States. What do they all have in common? A firm belief in themselves. Mm. Yeah. I think anybody that runs for president has a firm belief in themselves and their ideals and ideas.
- [34:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
And do you feel that? Like that?
- [34:14]
Norah O'Donnell
Absolutely. In person, a full sense of confidence and self assuredness unlike anything else in the world. Yeah, it's like a. It's like something you can almost smell.
- [34:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
Wow.
- [34:32]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah,
- [34:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
that's interesting. You know, I don't watch a ton of sports, but, you know, when, like, basketball players are about to do the free throw and you almost like, sense if they're gonna miss it or not, it's sort of like the opposite of that, I would imagine.
- [34:45]
Norah O'Donnell
And that's not to say that only men have that. Yeah, because another instance, other than candidates for president who succeed, and sometimes there are some candidates who run for president that instantly I can sense that it's not there. But Malala Yousafzai, you know, I wanted that interview with Malala Yousafzai, who is someone who I deeply admire, who was nearly assassinated speaking up for the rights for girls to have education in Pakistan, where to this day, half of the girls and women in Pakistan do not have the right to an education. There are 120 million girls across the world who do not have access to education. And Malala is a hero advocating on their behalf. I wanted that first interview with her. Diane Sawyer gets the interview. I got the second interview. It's okay. I'm happy for Diane. But Malala, when I sat down with her, you know, and she's still a teenager, had been nearly assassinated. I got that sense of Courage from her. It was like there was an aura around her. It was like a light. And I asked her at the time, because the Taliban still wanted to assassinate her, and I said, are you still afraid? And she said, why should I be afraid if someone is afraid of me? Oh, yeah. And that's like, wow. So it's not, is it the lack of fear? Is it the lack of, I don't know, his incredible sense of bravery and courage? But Malala had it, has it, you know, And I think a lot of the, you know, major party nominees for president have this enormous sense of self, and that's why those of us in the press try and ask tough questions, because the presidency has enormous power.
- [36:39]
Podcast Narrator
Yeah.
- [36:39]
Norah O'Donnell
Has enormous power.
- [36:43]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you believe the guardrails of democracy, of our Constitution, will hold?
- [36:50]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes, I do. Are they under threat? Yes. And, you know, I think that's why people are following the news very closely and whether the guardrails still exist. But again, it's not only the three branches of government which happen to be in one party's control right now. However, there are midterms coming up, and generally the electorate, America ends up putting a check sometimes if they don't like the direction of whatever, the presidency. That's actually one of the oldest things that we know as political reporters is a lot of times president will come in, they'll get their party in power in Congress, and then by the midterm, guess what? The party gets voted out in Congress because they want to check on the presidency. Americans do like divided government. They vote for it. They do. But another check is the power of the press and information. And the one interesting thing, too, we've seen is the numbers of participation at the polls actually going up. And I think that's a hopeful thing. As more and more people get engaged.
- [37:57]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you worry about tactics like ICE preventing that?
- [38:02]
Norah O'Donnell
It's something to watch, I think a real. I don't know, you know, that in particular, you know, as a journalist, I am watching why President Trump is building the new largest law enforcement organization. That's ice.
- [38:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [38:20]
Norah O'Donnell
To what means the border? Is the president deserves credit for shutting down the border. He ran on that. People elected him for that, and he's largely shut down the border. Now, the question, I think, for voters is this now an overreach, and will the president's party be voted out of Congress as a result? Will the government be shut down in a meaningful way because of that? And I think that's a real question.
- [38:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
Will you ever run for office?
- [38:55]
Norah O'Donnell
No, I have absolutely. Why do.
- [38:57]
Podcast Narrator
Why do you ask that?
- [38:58]
Norah O'Donnell
That's so interesting. I live in D.C. we don't really have. We have taxation without representation, as our license plates say.
- [39:07]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, a Texas girl.
- [39:09]
Norah O'Donnell
I am a Texas girl Yeah, I am a Texas girl.
- [39:13]
Jamie Kern Lima
When I saw you give your Gracie speech when you won the Gracie Award this year, I was like, I just had this overwhelming feeling that you should run for office. Very strong feeling, like sitting there in the audience. I think I may have asked you that when I met you, actually. Interesting, because we met briefly. Are you gonna run for office? Just like a feeling.
- [39:34]
Norah O'Donnell
Look, I don't, you know, my job as a journalist and to ask tough questions. I'm so interested, obviously, in all of the people that I cover and get to talk to and interview. Do I love the American country? Yes. Do I love and respect people that are involved in public service? Yes. Yeah. And I hope that the way that I cover them shows that respect. Because it's a really hard job and it's really hard to run for office no matter what party you're in. And we should think about that too, because we want good people in public service. I do think we want more nurses, teachers, construction workers, baristas, business people, podcasters. You know, we want a representative democracy. And it's not actually because there are not enough women in office. And so you'll hear I don't express my personal views or opinions about anything. But one thing that I do believe
- [40:33]
Podcast Narrator
is we need to pause for a super brief break and while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today, to keep going, to remember that
- [40:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
they matter, and to feel less alone
- [40:52]
Podcast Narrator
and more enough, more connected, more inspired and more worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free week weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecarnlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you if you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools Joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.
- [41:55]
Norah O'Donnell
I am so excited for this book. You know why? Because it's going to save so many people. It's gonna save people. Were the your new beautiful book worthy? Get this book. This book. I'm telling you. It's a book that can change anybody's life who picks it up. Anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough didn't measure up. Something's missing in your life. I have to tell you. It's powerful. It's happening. It's worthy.
- [42:26]
Podcast Narrator
Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you. I went from struggling waitress facing non stop rejection to founder of IT Cosmetics, a billion dollar company by learning how to overcome self doubt and believe I am worthy of my hopes and dreams. And I'm sharing how you can too in my new book how to believe you are enough and transform your life. If you're ready to truly trust yourself and break through that barrier of of self doubt and know that where you come from or even where you are right now doesn't determine where you're going,
- [43:07]
Jamie Kern Lima
then Worthy is for you.
- [43:10]
Podcast Narrator
It's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough. It's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be. And it's time to believe that you are worthy of it. Because in life we don't become what we want. We become what we believe we're worthy of. Join the Worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of Worthy Anywhere books are sold. Then head to worthybook.com now for free gifts including my five part course on becoming unstoppable and my 95 page worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the book into your real life right now.
- [43:56]
Jamie Kern Lima
Worthy is groundbreaking.
- [43:57]
Norah O'Donnell
Yo Worthy. You are Worthy. This book is going to change lives.
- [44:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
This book literally will teach you how to actually feel worthy so that you can have the strength, you can have the confidence.
- [44:08]
Norah O'Donnell
The lessons in this book and the strategies will change your life.
- [44:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
You will never be the same again after you read this book.
- [44:15]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie's book Worthy is a must read. It is going to inspire you, empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve. Jamie's book Worthy is incredible.
- [44:28]
Podcast Narrator
The gifts are going away but they're all free right now on worthybook.com
- [44:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
and
- [44:35]
Podcast Narrator
now more of this incredible Conversation together.
- [44:39]
Norah O'Donnell
I don't express my personal views or opinions about anything. But one thing that I do believe is there needs to be more women in power and there needs to be more women in political office. And I think, as you see, as I get, Tina, the end of the book, I talk about how both Republican women and Democratic women in Congress helped change the laws that affect our lives on a daily basis. If you have ever taken parental leave as a male or a female, that's because of a female member of Congress. If your daughter participates in sports with equal funding, Title ix, that's because of women in Congress. If you are able to get a credit card and open a bank account, which happened in the 70s, hello. That was the work of Republican and Democratic women together. I mean, can you imagine not being able to open up a mortgage, Jamie? Like, not being able to open up a bank account? That's happened in the 70s. Like, hello. So what? More so I don't. I want people to believe in the power of their ideas, the power of their agency to change the world for the better. Because the moment we're cynical and give up, the moment I stop asking tough questions or stop doing investigative work, then we're in trouble. When the press stops doing their job, when, you know, the good ideological battles end, then we're in trouble.
- [46:05]
Jamie Kern Lima
You are the kind of person we need to vote for. No, I'm serious. You.
- [46:10]
Norah O'Donnell
You look at you and you run my campaign.
- [46:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
You look at your career, and you have been inside power. You've been inside the White House. You've been inside all of the rooms. You have decades of politicians on all sides turning to you because they trust you and you do the right thing. You know, you do the right thing. And we need more of that.
- [46:35]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, thank you. Well, I try to also assume that I don't know the answer. I think in everything that we look at, in every person we meet and every person that we interview, we go into. And again, my whole team that I work with, great group of people, we go into an interview, we read their book, study what they've said, and we don't ask something that assumes anything, because, as I tell my kids, because when you assume something that makes sense, ask
- [47:04]
Jamie Kern Lima
out of you and me.
- [47:08]
Norah O'Donnell
So I do try and keep an open mind and listen really. And I think the best leaders in any field are people that listen intently, try to compromise. Leading is not easy. You can't always please everybody, but they at least listen and make people feel heard. Right.
- [47:30]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know, you talk a lot about the power of Your team and the people around you. And I think that's just a side note. I think that's also something in we, the women. You talk about some of the four star women in the military, across the different branches of the military. And you talk about how for various reasons, some of them aren't present now from firings and things like that. And I think, I think on a side note, just off the top of my head, listening to you talk about the power of your team at CBS, I think is so important. I think that another risk in our country right now is you have people that have spent their entire careers across multiple administrations, Republican and Democrat, that have done phenomenal things for national security, and they're just out. And I think that my prayers, they get back in somehow. That is my prayer.
- [48:25]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, one important note on that, because I think it's a really important point that you bring up. Remember that the federal government is made up of political appointees and non political appointees. Most people who serve in government are non political. Right. Which is that they've been across administrations and you need those people for the continuity of government because they remember how things like the Social Security Administration works or the IRS or Veterans Affairs. Right. Because they've got that knowledge base. Then there's always a changeover that happens with political appointees. And so that's not, though, supposed to happen in the military. Right. The Secretary of Defense is a political appointee that serves as the civilian advisor to the President of the United States. But under that, the military is apolitical. Is supposed to be apolitical. And those, you know, that's an oath to the Constitution that they serve and first and foremost. So there's always a political head at the Secretary of Defense level. But the military, those are non political appointees.
- [49:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
As a Catholic, being raised a Catholic, were you nervous interviewing Pope Francis?
- [49:38]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes, and I don't normally get nervous on a lot of these interviews, but, you know, Pope Francis was pretty much the biggest interview in the world because never has the Holy Father given a long interview like that to an American journalist on camera. Pope Francis was also 87 years old and we were doing the interview through translation, but he was so warm and so generous and so smart and took every question. And I asked him about sex abuse in the Catholic Church. I asked him about surrogacy because the Catholic Church does still not approve of surrogacy. And I said to him, I have many friends who have gone through cancer or other things and want to have a child through surrogacy. Can you change your rules on that? He said, I hear you, I hear you. I asked him about women in the Catholic Church because I believe women are the backbone of the Catholic Church. There are hundreds of thousands of nuns who do a lot of the work in the Catholic Church, in Catholic hospitals, in schools. I mean, they're the front line of caregivers to the poor and needy across the world. He took my questions, but he said he's not going to, you know, allow the ordination of women. But that's okay, because one of the things I think too, as a member of the press is asking the question itself is important, meaning they are hearing that that's on the concerns of people.
- [51:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [51:04]
Norah O'Donnell
And sometimes when you do get in power, you might surround yourself with a lot of like minded people. And so taking questions from the press is important because they can hear other things that perhaps they're not hearing now. That wasn't the case with Pope Francis, I'm sure, you know, but I wanted to make sure in the limited time that we had with him, to talk about why he was such an extraordinary leader of the Catholic Church, but also should the Catholic Church change? And he took those questions.
- [51:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
Have you ever, I mean, interviewing so many of the world's leaders, have you ever been scared in an interview?
- [51:43]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes. And not, you know, there are different degrees of being scared. I don't mean scared for like my own life, but scared to get it right. You know, I have two interviews with the Crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman. And when I interviewed him first, it was a groundbreaking interview because of course, the crown prince talked about how Islam, there's nothing in the Quran that requires a woman to cover their face. That was big news, been certainly to the Middle east or other parts of South Asia where to believe that the Quran says that women have to cover their face or shouldn't be allowed to drive or all these other things. So that made big news then. He is accused of the murder of a Washington Post columnist, Jamal Khashoggi. I had then had the interview after that where I went into his palace and asked him, first question. Did you order the murder of Jamal Khashoggi? First question. There were some people that said, you know, I think you should warm up the interview. Don't ask that as your first question. You know, that's. You can't just go in there and just ask him that question. I said, no, I can. We're here in Saudi Arabia. I asked for the interview and we're here. I'm going to ask that question And I'm glad I did, because guess what? They released the transcript, and the interview was clean on my part. I always assumed that, you know, whatever I say is going to be public. And that was the first. That was why I was there. And he is a powerful figure and should answer that question. And he answered it the way he answered it. But it might have been one of the more interesting interviews in my lifetime.
- [53:39]
Jamie Kern Lima
What does your body feel like when you ask that? Um,
- [53:45]
Norah O'Donnell
actually, power, the power of the ability to ask tough questions like that is pretty awesome.
- [53:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
Did you have any fear when you asked it?
- [53:56]
Norah O'Donnell
I don't remember. Fear, no. Because I had prepared.
- [54:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Did you pray before you went in?
- [54:02]
Norah O'Donnell
I think I did, yeah.
- [54:04]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. Have you ever sat across from someone and just knew they were lying through their teeth?
- [54:11]
Norah O'Donnell
Sure.
- [54:14]
Podcast Narrator
Of course.
- [54:16]
Norah O'Donnell
In fact, that happens more often than you might think. Yeah. And not just with people in power, politicians. With other people, too.
- [54:23]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [54:23]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, yeah. People have different ways of kind of being fibbers.
- [54:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [54:27]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. They can fib their own story. They can fib their record. You know, people are good at fibbing. Well, guess what? Journalists are good at research and facts.
- [54:36]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [54:36]
Norah O'Donnell
And so we always go in, making sure. Look, you're allowed to say what you want to say, but I follow back up with facts. Or a follow up. I'm listening. Say. Well, actually, this is actually our understanding of this issue. That's not, you know what. And I put facts behind it. That's not what XYZ says, you know, in a clear way, so that the viewer at home. It's not my view, it's what the facts are. Can I try and present that as clearly as I can? Do I always get it right? No. But I'm trying to do the best job I can because at the end of the day, it's not about a confrontation.
- [55:05]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [55:07]
Norah O'Donnell
It's. It's about trying to bring information and help people learn something about really complex issues.
- [55:13]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [55:14]
Norah O'Donnell
War and peace, government, power.
- [55:18]
Jamie Kern Lima
Mm. Do you feel like you can. Do you get intuition that tells you someone's lying or like you can sense their body language?
- [55:25]
Norah O'Donnell
Not intuition, I hope. It's built on just knowing the issue.
- [55:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
Right, yeah. Done your research?
- [55:30]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah.
- [55:32]
Jamie Kern Lima
Have you ever left an interview and felt like this negative energy or like dark energy or like. Like you've. Like Taylor Swift. You gotta shake it off. Like something's just like. What is that? Have you ever had that happen?
- [55:44]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, gosh, I'm sure. But I mean, honestly, Jamie, I'm so focused on. And in fact, my producers have said this. That, like, if I'm sitting, waiting for someone, you know, I, like, apparently go into a major zone.
- [55:56]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. Yeah.
- [55:57]
Norah O'Donnell
And I don't. I want to be viewed as impartial.
- [56:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [56:01]
Norah O'Donnell
And I try my best to be both. Impartial, factual, full of integrity, trustful, bringing information to that interview that. That truly is my main focus. That a lot of times, some of that other stuff swirls past. But, I mean, I've met and interviewed a lot of people, so I've seen a lot.
- [56:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oh, my goodness. So you're good at not letting it penetrate you. Whatever their energy might be.
- [56:24]
Norah O'Donnell
I think I'm getting better at. Over time.
- [56:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. I've had it happen one time, and this podcast is only a year old. One time. I had it happen. Great interview. I don't know that anyone will be able to tell this, but I left. I literally called my therapist. I'm like. I feel like I'm, gonna. Like, I'm gonna get sick. Like, something was not. Yeah. Like, I just. I don't know what happened, Nora. I don't know if it was, like, spiritual. I don't know what it was, but it was this kind of, like, dark energy. I debated even releasing the interview or not because I was like, I don't know what this is, but something doesn't feel right. Interesting. Yeah. And you know, my show, my hope is everyone listening to you already know. This is already. This is already accomplished in this interview that they're gonna just feel inspired and less alone and more. Enough and more and especially excited to get we the women and read about all these other women's stories. But also hearing your story. Let me just say this. You don't tell a lot of your story in this book. It just in this interview, like. Like already learning about even more. About who you are, about your integrity, about what you things with, about how serious you take things, about how you've talked about really freaking complicated, difficult and delicate topics. And just seeing, like, your strength and your genius has been a gift that so many people listening are going to be so inspired by.
- [57:42]
Podcast Narrator
But anyhow.
- [57:43]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, no, I appreciate you saying that because it's. I don't want the press to be attacked.
- [57:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [57:50]
Norah O'Donnell
Not personally or as a profession. So I don't talk about myself because I don't want to be the story. I want people to focus on the work and the subject. And I do. And this is part of the humility I think I learned, too, from my parents, which is just. It's not. It's not about you. It's about the work. And I truly have tried to try to carry that out. I don't want people doubting me or the integrity of my work. I want people focused on the quality of, of the work. And it's not easy.
- [58:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
I think it's like a fine line. When Robin Roberts sat here and talked about her, you know, being so scared to come out as being gay because she's also Christian and thought she would be shunned. And she, you know, I think her sharing, in my opinion, that her heart and her soul is so beautiful. And I don't think, I don't think that bleeds over into her job as a journalist. You know, I think, I think or when Anderson Cooper talks about grief or, and I don't know him personally, but I think it's so beautiful. I will just say my opinion to get to know. Also, just like your personal views on integrity and that Jeff, your sweet husband Jeff, leaves you love notes and how you, the morals and values you're instilling in your kids and how you always ask. There's a lot of times in my life I didn't ask. And I'm so. It's only really been maybe the last 20 years. I ask, I ask, I ask with it. Cosmetics. I ask, I ask, you know, and I just think that's so powerful. Like, and so many of us don't ask. Like, so many women listening right now, they don't ask for the raise, they don't ask for the promotion. They don't ask the guy they've had a Crush on for 15 years now if he wants to be more than just friends or the girl. They don't ask. And there's just so many things by you sharing these parts of who you are that, you know, I think in my opinion they're not even anywhere near a journalistic line. They're more about like, oh, wow, here's a kick ass woman that I can also be even more inspired by.
- [59:58]
Norah O'Donnell
I so appreciate you saying that because I think it's. I know it sounds hard to believe, but I truly, in writing this story and reading about these women, I do feel like I'm unlocking something about the power of my own voice and the power of my own story. And I haven't told all my stories yet. I do have the title from my memoir.
- [60:23]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you?
- [60:24]
Norah O'Donnell
But I haven't written it yet.
- [60:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
You're hearing it here first. You're hearing it here first.
- [60:29]
Norah O'Donnell
It's called Every Second Counts. Because I mean, I literally have not written this yet, but it's because literally at the end of the evening news, the show's only like 19 minutes long. It's 30 minutes. But then the commercials. But then at the end, we would try and squeeze in all this news, and then we'd come back for the last block and they'd be like, you have seven seconds to say goodbye. And I'd be like, I can't do it in seven seconds. They're like, you have seven seconds. So in my mind, every second counts. Which is a story about one, my professional career. But also your personal life.
- [60:55]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [60:55]
Norah O'Donnell
Thinking about your life. Every second counts can be anxiety producing.
- [61:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes. But I love that title.
- [61:03]
Norah O'Donnell
So there's more to the story about the Pope interview that I've never told publicly, but that'll come next time there and then. And there's stories of me, you know, and I'm happy to share this one with you now. You know, when I joined CBS News, I was asked to be the chief White House correspondent, and I wanted to be a 60 Minutes correspondent. And the head of 60 Minutes, the chairman at the time, said, well, great, but we don't just make 60 Minutes correspondence. But you can come be our chief White House correspondent and you can pitch stories. And I said, great. Then I met with a senior man at cbs and I thought, oh, this is going well. And he said to me, well, how are you going to be chief White House correspondent with three kids at home? And I felt the blood, like, rush up my neck. You know when you get nervous and someone's neck turns really red? And I felt that. And I blurted out and said, do you ask men that question? And I got in the car and I called my husband. He said, how'd it go? And I said, that guy is a jerk. And he was like, oh, first of all, it's illegal for them to ask you that. Fast forward. I didn't let that person's doubt about me ever affect what I believed I could do. But people are all the time trying to put their doubt on top of you all the time. But you call your husband or you call your friend and say, don't let that guy. You can handle it. You can have three kids at home. You can cover the White House.
- [62:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
You're okay.
- [62:30]
Norah O'Donnell
But when I was covering the White House, I was then asked to go become the anchor of the morning show with Gayle King and Charlie Rose. And when they came to me and they said, we need an answer immediately. And I said, well, I don't have to give you an answer immediately. And they said, here's the deal. And I said, I'm not taking the deal unless you pay me the same amount as the man on that show. Because I knew he was the highest paid person on the show. And they said, we can't do that. I said, why not? And they said, well, because he's, you know, this person. I said, well, then I don't want the job. So I got paid the same. Now, not all my negotiations go that way, but if you don't ask for what you want or know what you're worth at that particular moment, sometimes you're not always worth the same or equal. Someone may be much more experienced or they do deserve the top job. So it doesn't always work. But in the times that you know that you are worth it, you have to ask for it. And sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't. Every once in a while it turns out okay. Then there are lots of stories where it doesn't.
- [63:53]
Jamie Kern Lima
That is amazing.
- [63:54]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah,
- [63:57]
Jamie Kern Lima
I can tell just which, by the way, let me just say this again, how tremendously honored and grateful I am that you're here, that you're having this conversation. You're allowing me to ask you questions. Learning that you've never done a long form sit down interview where you're.
- [64:12]
Norah O'Donnell
It's hard. It's hard for me to talk about myself. So thank you, Jamie.
- [64:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
But I can tell there are also so many more things you shared, which is why I'm excited also, for Every Second Counts. But I want to talk about we, the women, because, you know, the hidden heroes who shaped America. I just. The best way I can describe for me the power of this book is I believe we can borrow each other's courage. I believe that when we think about how do I build a toolbox of things that give me strength? Right? Because, you know, you are blessed. I am blessed to have friends I can call or a husband I can call and can pour into me when I need to be reminded of who I am and all that. And I also think, though not everyone has that, and also even those of us that do have that, we can also pull from other women's stories and we can pull from their experiences and we can look back and go, oh, that happened there. Oh, okay. This is not just me. I'm gonna press forward. I'm not gonna let this hold me back, and I'm not gonna let the fact that I feel like I don't fit in a room or belong in a room. Let me keep, you know, keep me from walking in that room and there's just so many lessons in here that, you know, I wish I had heard earlier, I wish I had learned earlier. And I'm so excited for this book. We, the women, and I said this earlier, but I think it's the perfect gift for every girl, every woman, every sister, every aunt, every grandma, every daughter, every neighbor's kid, like every teacher. It's just such a beautiful book. You can tell you poured three years into it with a whole team of incredible women like Julie Morse and so many others that poured into it with you. And I think it's such a gift. And you divide the book into sections. And for the person listening, you know, or watching us right now, can you share what they should expect when they get this home and in your hope, what this will do for them?
- [66:20]
Norah O'Donnell
I hope that it inspires you and every reader. I hope that the stories of women sort of remind you of yourself or maybe someone in your family. Stories of sort of bravery, grit, determination, failure, rejection, being the first right, being denounced because you're the first in doing something. Dr. Mary Edwards Walker is the first army surgeon during the Civil War. I mean, she's the only woman in America to this day to have received the Medal of Honor. They tried to take it away from her and she refused to hand it back. But the other really interesting thing about being an army surgeon during the Civil War too, she wore pants. She was one of the first women ever to be known to wear pants. And she said, famously, I don't wear men's clothes. I wear my own clothes. So in every way, too. Revolutionaries are different in a lot of ways. I mean, I think she wore pants because she was out on the battlefield as a surgeon. Right. It didn't make sense to be wearing a skirt out there too. But I hope people find inspiration in these stories of like, just because you may feel doubted, whether it's self doubt or the doubt that other people try and place on you that push through, whether it's the story in a book, a story in history, or a friend, family member, faith leader, find someone who is going to believe in you. We don't always have to believe in ourselves. Yes, that's important. But sometimes it helps to have someone believe in it with you. And I must say, Jamie, too, your book Worthy is so good. I mean, it has helped me. It helped me explore and explain the stories of these women in ways that I think are relatable to more people. And I think as I wrote you too, when you wrote at the beginning of your book to imagine a world of women who feel worthy. If we woke up every day and women felt they were worthy, what would that world look like? Gosh. Dee Myers wrote a book, why Women Should Rule the World, many, many years ago. She was Bill Clinton's press secretary. And I always thought we should write a book, say, how to teach our girls how to rule the world. Because, yes, women should rule the world alongside men, too. Men and women should rule the world. But women are not ruling the world. They should. But I think the next question is how to teach our girls how to rule the world. And that's making them believe that they're worthy. It's making them see stories of other women in history who didn't have laws to support them, didn't have the same educational rights, and yet somehow had so much grit and determination to try and change America and make it live up to the ideals in the Declaration of Independence.
- [69:30]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know what I wonder when you describe that feeling you have in person of every living US President, you felt of that they're just absolute belief. I wonder if you were in the room with some of these women in the past 250 years, if you would feel that, that same sense. And I just wonder, how do we get every girl and woman to feel that, like, unwavering belief in themselves?
- [69:58]
Norah O'Donnell
I think we're still a long way from there.
- [70:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [70:02]
Norah O'Donnell
I think that in order for women to get ahead, they have to get along. And so there's a lot of women's power and ambition that is held back by the current, you know, the current system. And I'm not sure I'm fully explaining what that means, but in some ways, I think women are holding back their power
- [70:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
themselves or from each other.
- [70:30]
Norah O'Donnell
No, I think it's being held back, you know, just the way we're taught. Yeah. Hold back our power and our expression.
- [70:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [70:36]
Norah O'Donnell
But that has changed. And I note in the last chapter of my book, which I call my lifetime, the last 50 years, I mean, who was the highest grossing concert of all time? Taylor. I mean, talk about someone who is unabashedly powerful and is the poet of our generation. You know, look at the movie Barbie, Greta Gerwig and that incredible script and the message that it delivers. That was a blockbuster push, billion dollar movie. So there's something there, do you think,
- [71:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
with Michelle Obama recently, with everyone in the universe asking her if she's gonna run for president, why hasn't she run for president? And she just finally, I think it had it and said, you all are not ready for a woman in office. Do you think the country's ready for a woman to be president?
- [71:34]
Norah O'Donnell
I do, I do. And I think that as we have more and more women in elected office, well, that progress has not been steady. It's been slow. You know, someday there will be, whether it's a female governor, a female member of the military, that they're going to run for president. We did just have two female party nominees, you know, in the last 10 years, Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris. So I think we need more women in the Republican Party, more women in the Democratic Party reaching for the highest and hardest glass ceiling to crack that. And everyone should check how we cover women in power and the way we talk about them.
- [72:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oh, yeah.
- [72:27]
Norah O'Donnell
I mean, yeah. And whether it's in business or in the media or in politics, I mean, I see the bias. I see the bias.
- [72:44]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. It's crazy. You don't even want to know the conversations I get into with my five families when they start talking about a female candidate appearance or this or that. And I'm just like, you would never in a million years talk about the male candidate's appearance. Like when you're assessing, are they great for president? Like, it's just, it blows me away, just the biased everywhere and well, you
- [73:06]
Norah O'Donnell
know, it as a businesswoman, I mean, a highly successful entrepreneur.
- [73:10]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:11]
Norah O'Donnell
We should all be in check and check. Our, the, the men we love in our lives, they're biased too. Yeah, women in our lives too, who may have that same bias about women in power and check that bias and be aware of it. But when women support women, great things happen. When men also support those women, you know, the world will change.
- [73:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
You can do any podcast you choose to do. You can do any interview in the world you choose to do. And you've interviewed everyone in the world. Why are you doing this podcast as your first ever long form podcast? Why are you here? Why did you say yes to this?
- [73:55]
Norah O'Donnell
Because I met you and I admire you and you asked and I've seen the quality of your work and I know what you're trying to do is change people for the better. And I'm all in on that, 100%. Like the emoji. Absolutely 100%. I am in with everything you are doing about positivity, about being worthy, limiting self doubt. I want women to realize their full potential. I am lucky. I get to work with some really powerful women and I see it less in younger women. I do think they are have as much self doubt maybe as my generation does. And I have teenage daughters and I mean they are ready to take on the world. And that makes me really hopeful. But I admire you so much, Jamie, and the quality of your work is superb. And the fact that you've done the interviews that you've done with so many powerful people, especially women, and shedding light on whether it's their lives or menopause, recently, that thing crushed it. Making our lives better. The health and wellness of women and our communities. Thank you.
- [75:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm glad I asked. I'm glad I asked you to come.
- [75:33]
Podcast Narrator
See, I asked, and I feel very
- [75:36]
Jamie Kern Lima
honored, and I'm so grateful. And your work is incred. And I want to say this. We, the women, we, the women, we are going to link to it. It's out everywhere. Books are sold. There's also the audiobook. I love doing both. I love the audiobook and the hard copy. Yes.
- [75:54]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. And I just taped the audiobook. And I mean, I made myself cry a number of times during it. Not made myself cry. I just cried. I mean, I could like some of the stories. I'm just like, I.
- [76:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
How.
- [76:07]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, I have nothing to complain about in life. Like, women have had it tough.
- [76:14]
Jamie Kern Lima
This book is a visceral experience. And I think if you're someone at home right now that just feels kind of like you're numb to everything or you're maybe just like, want your hope ignited or you almost want to feel again. You know, I just think that so many of these stories, like, you're saying you're crying, recording the audiobook, but so many of them are just. You have a visceral experience with them. And also, I think that in my opinion, it is impossible to read we the Women and not walk away. Just inspired. Inspired. And also stronger. I felt stronger. I felt stronger. And like, okay, we've got this. Okay, we're gonna go. We're gonna make it through this. You know, we're gonna come through this. We're gonna come through it stronger. And. And we've got this. And so I think I'm excited. I'm excited for everyone to get it in their hands and to get it home. And, you know, a friend of mine, John Maxwell, said he always reads a book twice, and he said the first time he highlights it, and the second time it highlights him. And I love that so much. And I think of that with this book because it'll be one of those books that again, I was talking about having it on my coffee table, right? And you just want to pick it up whenever. You just need a boost. That day or, you know, you're just like, okay, I'm going to stop scrolling Instagram and I need to feel alive again. Let me take five minutes and read, you know, about a woman in history who's really done incredible things under, who's really defied the odds.
- [77:41]
Norah O'Donnell
Thank you. You know, Well, I brought my copy of Worthy, which you'll see not only do I highlight, there's highlight and underline and post it notes. And then the post it notes have
- [77:50]
Podcast Narrator
at the top of it the topics.
- [77:53]
Norah O'Donnell
So you'll see I use multiple forms of annotation on my books. Yeah. So that I remember it. So that it like seeps in and stays with me.
- [78:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes. Yes. Nora o', Donnell, this is amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for flying all the way here to the studio. This is a blessing and a gift to everyone who gets to experience this with you and me today. And I'm just, I'm excited for all the feedback, all the stories, all the stories people are gonna share about we, the women when they get at home because I feel like every one of us can see parts of ourselves, like you said earlier in these stories. And congratulations on an incredible book.
- [78:28]
Norah O'Donnell
Thank you so much, Jamie, and thank you to your incredible team. Thanks for all that you do. Thank you.
- [78:35]
Podcast Narrator
Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can impact and
- [78:42]
Jamie Kern Lima
change their life too.
- [78:44]
Podcast Narrator
And if you love today's episode, please click the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're
- [78:49]
Jamie Kern Lima
listening to it on or watching it on.
- [78:51]
Podcast Narrator
And if it added value to your life, if you could, please give it a rating or review. I love a great 5 star review.
- [78:57]
Jamie Kern Lima
I would be so, so grateful.
- [78:59]
Podcast Narrator
And again, share it with everyone you believe in. Maybe it's another person in your life
- [79:03]
Jamie Kern Lima
who could benefit from it or someone
- [79:04]
Podcast Narrator
you know who's making a change in their career or marriage or health or just trying to get in touch with their story and the power that's inside of them. Share it with your community online who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today.
- [79:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Before you go, I want to share
- [79:27]
Podcast Narrator
some words with you that couldn't be more true. You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy.
- [79:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your
- [79:38]
Podcast Narrator
wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of
- [79:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
the Jamie Cran Lima show here. I hope you'll come as you are
- [79:48]
Podcast Narrator
and heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy, you are loved, you are loved and I love you and I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do. If you fully believed in you, it's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecarnlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.