The Secret to Your Best Life! Ignite Hope & Embrace the Miracle of Being Alive with Nicole Avant!

Summary

The Jamie Kern Lima Show

Episode: The Secret to Your Best Life! Ignite Hope & Embrace the Miracle of Being Alive with Nicole Avant!
Host: Jamie Kern Lima
Guest: Nicole Avant
Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply inspiring episode, Jamie Kern Lima sits down with Nicole Avant—award-winning producer, philanthropist, former US Ambassador, and bestselling author of Think You'll Be Happy?—for a conversation about overcoming self-doubt, living with gratitude, and navigating both triumphs and unimaginable loss. Together, they explore how to ignite hope, stay grounded amid chaos, and remember to truly live, even during life’s hardest moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intuition, Energy, and Discernment in Relationships

Timestamps: 00:00–03:36; 33:04–36:08

• On discernment and reading people: Nicole explains how her experience as a waitress sharpened her intuition for people’s energy and intentions.
  • "My energy reader is really good. Energy speaks volumes more than words because vibration tells me everything." —Nicole (00:14)
• Both reflect on how serving others built a 'detector' for authentic versus transactional relationships.
• Jamie relates with her own experience as a waitress, underscoring how service roles foster discernment and empathy.
• ATM Analogy: Nicole compares relationships to an ATM—some people make deposits, others just withdrawals (10:14–11:47).
  • "If you look at yourself like an ATM, some people are always going to make deposits, some only going to withdraw. You want more people depositing." —Nicole
• Quote: "At the end of the day...who I've been looking for? It’s me, you know?" —Nicole (11:48)

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2. Losing Yourself and Reconnecting to Self

Timestamps: 09:08–14:04; 12:47–14:47

• Many women, especially in their 20s, begin losing touch with their intuition while caretaking for others.
• Nicole shares: "You lose yourself, then you feel so guilty… You miss yourself. Your spirit, your soul. There’s nothing wrong with taking care of everyone—but you must take care of yourself, too." (12:47)
• She describes the sadness and exhaustion of self-betrayal when her own needs were always last, and the process of reclaiming her intuition and self-worth.
• Jamie underscores: "A lot of people...don't even know who they are anymore, how to hear their own intuition..." (12:10)

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3. Anchoring in Gratitude and Living with Intention

Timestamps: 19:52–24:45; 40:04–43:06

• Nicole talks about the importance of appreciating the simple things in life daily, even if it’s a ten-minute morning routine of gratitude.
• Her mother’s experience—never taking a weekend to herself for 50 years—illuminates the generational patterns women inherit (14:04–19:52).
• Nicole calls for carving out time for oneself, no matter how small: "Whatever you can do for yourself, 10 extra minutes in the morning—it makes the biggest difference in the world." —Nicole (19:52)
• The ongoing theme: Life is a privilege and should be honored through intentional living and self-care.

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4. The Evolution of Friendship & Connection

Timestamps: 25:56–30:00

• Nicole discusses how her friendship circle has evolved; childhood friends have become more important, and she values both male and female energy.
• COVID brought her back to her core tribe—people who feel like home, who ground her.
• She reflects on the importance of purposeful, soulful connections that are not based on fame or superficiality.

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5. The Foundation Laid by Childhood and Family

Timestamps: 29:03–31:07; 43:06–47:00

• Nicole’s parents instilled competition, resilience, and perspective in her from an early age—making her ready for wins and losses.
  • "You need to learn how to compete. How to lose, even after you’ve tried your best… that is going to happen to you in life." —Nicole, relaying advice from her mother (29:03)
• Jamie praises Nicole’s family for preparing her for the road, not the other way around.
• Nicole reflects: "My mom was very focused on happiness, the difference between being a happy soul versus being happy all the time." (67:36)

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6. Faith as an Anchor

Timestamps: 50:01–52:34; 56:22–57:23

• Both discuss the necessity of faith or being anchored in something greater than oneself, especially in the face of loss or when roles and external identities shift.
• "If you’re not anchored in anything, you’re floating all over and have no discernment… My faith has kept me sane, grounded, focused." —Nicole (40:04; 56:22)
• Jamie notes how faith shapes resilience, especially when former sources of meaning (roles, titles, fame) are lost.

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7. Turning Tragedy into Purpose: The Loss of Jacqueline Avant

Timestamps: 61:17–67:36

• Nicole shares the devastating loss of her mother in December 2021 and how her mother’s last words, "Think You’ll Be Happy," became both a personal mantra and the title of her memoir.
• The aftermath was a crucible for faith, resilience, and leadership—Nicole describes rising up for her family, stepping into the matriarchal role, and choosing to stand in faith:
  • "You sat up like this phoenix. There was this spirit within you taking over—a light." —Nicole, as described by her husband Ted (61:52)
• Her story is a testament to grace under tragedy and the importance of honoring, not avoiding, grief.

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8. Healing Parent-Child Relationships & Intergenerational Wisdom

Timestamps: 86:54–91:36

• Nicole shares a moving story about confronting her mother about not being emotionally expressive with "I love you"s:
  • "She said, this is my first time doing this too. I showed you love with my actions. I did the best that I could." —Nicole (88:53)
• Jamie shares her own story of healing an early wound with her birth mother, emphasizing vulnerability and asking for what you deeply need, no matter your age.
• The conversation underscores the importance of honest conversations, owning needs, and understanding that parents are imperfect humans too:
  • "Everyone's trying to be better...My mom did better than her mom. If it’s evolving, you’re in a good place." —Nicole (91:58)

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9. Choosing and Declaring Commitment in Relationships

Timestamps: 78:38–82:04

• After loss and massive change, Nicole and her husband Ted declared, out loud, their intention to stay together no matter what—a conscious, courageous act:
  • "We are staying together, no matter what. If we didn't declare it and look at each other in the eyes, anything could’ve really happened...It’s a decision.” —Nicole (79:32)
• Jamie reflects on how this kind of declaration creates safety and lasting commitment through even the hardest times.

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10. The Power of Vibration and Mindset

Timestamps: 70:03–73:22

• Nicole’s mother taught her the 'radio station' analogy for vibration: that you can change your internal state by changing your thoughts, words, and what you tune into.
• “You have to think of yourself as a radio station—what are you emitting? If you don’t like it, change your thoughts, change your words.” —Nicole (70:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I want people to walk away feeling hopeful or inspired...Because life is a privilege and living is a privilege." —Nicole Avant (06:09)
• "If you lose yourself, then you feel so guilty. You miss yourself. Your spirit, your soul. There’s nothing wrong with taking care of everyone—but you must take care of yourself, too." —Nicole Avant (12:47)
• "My faith has kept me sane, my faith has kept me grounded, my faith has kept me focused." —Nicole Avant (40:04)
• "The seeds I plant today—that’s my garden six months or a year from now." —Nicole Avant (24:45)
• "Think You’ll Be Happy.” Those were her last words to me...She was very big on happiness, and she knew the difference of being a happy soul versus a happy person all the time." —Nicole Avant (67:35)
• "You can’t have growth without challenge. You can’t learn about boundaries until someone tests yours." —Nicole Avant (51:21)
• "This is my first time doing this, too." —Nicole Avant, quoting her mother, on the experience of being a parent (88:53)
• "After loss, we declared: we are staying together, no matter what. It’s a decision." —Nicole Avant (79:32)

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Important Timestamps by Segment

• Intuition & Discernment: 00:14, 33:04, 40:04
• ATM Analogy (Relationships): 10:14, 11:47, 23:31
• Losing and Reclaiming Self: 09:08, 12:47
• Generational Patterns & Gratitude: 14:04, 19:52
• Friendship Evolution: 25:56
• Preparing Kids for the Road: 43:06
• Faith as Anchor: 40:04, 56:22
• Tragedy & Resilience: 61:17, 67:36
• Matriarch Moment: 73:35–74:50
• Commitment in Marriage: 78:38–82:04
• Parent Healing Conversation: 86:54–91:36

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Flow and Tone

The conversation is heartfelt, honest, and empowering, blending deep vulnerability with wisdom. Nicole brings gravitas and grace, offering actionable insights and hard-won perspective, while Jamie is open, supportive, and unafraid to share her own journey, mirroring the audience’s voice.

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Core Takeaways

• Discernment and energy are vital in every relationship.
• Root yourself in gratitude and faith to weather life’s storms.
• Prioritize your health, soul, and self-worth to serve others better.
• Declare and choose the relationships and life you want, especially in hard times.
• Embrace honest, vulnerable conversations to heal intergenerational pain.
• Accept and move through hardship by first facing reality—then deciding how to show up.
• We are all a work in progress, and it’s never too late to reclaim your joy or make amends.

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Final Thought

This episode leaves listeners with a clear message: Even in the darkest moments, you can choose hope, resilience, and deep gratitude for the miracle of being alive. Through faith, self-awareness, and a willingness to live—messy, honest, and all in—you can ignite the best in yourself and become a light for others.

Transcript

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I'm just gonna say it. You are undeniably one of the most powerful women in Hollywood. How do you practice discernment over people's intentions when you meet them?

[Nicole Avant]

I usually know within. My energy reader is really good.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And I think energy speaks volumes more than words because vibration tells me everything. I was a waitress too.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You were a waitress too? I knew that.

[Nicole Avant]

I was a waitress too and I was in the service business. When you serve others and you're not paid anything and you're constantly in the position to serve other people and they could be treating you horribly, it gives you, it gives you a detector.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Every day I pray God brings the right people in my life and has the wrong ones leave 100%.

[Nicole Avant]

I same prayer.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Do you all the time, right now in your life, are you truly remembering to love, live? Do you truly feel the day and feel the gratitude for the miracle of your life? Or have you gotten, perhaps unknowingly so busy, so distracted, or maybe even so numb with routine and responsibilities, it's left you feeling disconnected from yourself, from your body, from the feeling of true gratitude for the miracle of being alive. Today we're talking about grace, grit, gratitude, and how to remember to live with one of the most inspirational, iconic, legendary women I know. Nicole Avant, Ambassador. Avant is an award winning producer including of the academy award nominated film 6888, entrepreneur, philanthropist, former US Ambassador to the Bahamas and author of the best selling book think you'll be happy? A spirit lifting memoir on how to turn pain into purpose, how to live with gratitude and how to face down tragedy and turn it into love. She and her husband, co CEO of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, live in Los Angeles and her impact and work has touched people all around the globe. Nicole Avant was raised surrounded by some of the most extraordinary legends of our time and her parents, entertainment mogul the black godfather Clarence Avant and legendary philanthropist Jacqueline Avant turned their home into a place of refuge and inspiration for a generation of notable icons and culture shifting artists. In December 2021, an unthinkable tragedy struck. Her mother, Jacqueline was fatally shot by a home intruder. In her incredible memoir, think you'll be happy? Nicole turns the pain of her family's loss into the fuel that pushes her forward. Think you'll be happy? Her mom's last words to Nicole provides a roadmap for anyone working to remain positive and anchored in hope. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima show, podcast, family, and for everyone, part of this right now, can you do me a big favor? If you like the show and you like the guests that I bring you, please, please hit the subscribe or follow button on the app that you're listening or watching on. It truly means the world to me and thank you. And I just wanna remind you, this episode, it's not just for you and me. Please share it with every single person that you know. Because what you're about to hear will change your life and theirs.

[Nicole Avant]

Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Oprah, how have you defied the odds?

[Nicole Avant]

Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation. When you listen, it feel like a hug. But your brain and your spirit and your heart is like, wow.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Melinda French Gates.

[Nicole Avant]

When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I could see the light around her.

[Nicole Avant]

She's infused with light.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Imagine overcoming self doubt, learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

[Nicole Avant]

Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Nicole Avant. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you for having me. I'm gonna take you everywhere. I love this introduction.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I am so excited you are here.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here too. Really.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I remember the first time we met at a friend's birthday and you had shared that you listened to an episode of the show and we just connected and I just remember having this knowing you would be in my life. I didn't even know like much of anything at that point. You are someone who is so tremendously powerful, inspirational, impactful, kind, faith filled, loving, generous friend. When I talk to pretty much everyone about you, those are the things that they say and done extra research for this interview. And so I'm just, I'm excited. And I know you know so much of your journey up into this point is filled with so many stories, so many incredible moments, so many legendary moments. So we'll touch upon some of those. And I'm also so excited to talk about right now and everything going forward, so.

[Nicole Avant]

Me too.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I'm just so. I'm so excited you're here.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You say studying history growing up helped you decide who you wanted to be in the world, which I'm so excited to dive into that because I think that's so profound when you say that studying history growing up helped you decide who you want to Be in the world. My first question to you right now, Nicole, is who are you in the world right now?

[Nicole Avant]

That's a very good question. I don't even think about who I am. I know that I want to be a person that brings goodness into the world. I think of myself. The most important thing that I know about myself every day is to remind myself that I am a good soul. My intention is to be a good soul. I'm just a good person, not a positive person, not a really good soul. And when I traveled around the world, when I would read world history and I would think about all the heroic people, you read about all the tragedy tragedies through history, but I was always focused on the people who came into the tragedy and tried to transmute it and try to transform it into something better, something good, make it light filled. They went into the darkest places. And I'm always focused on the people who run into the darkness versus running away from the darkness or creating the darkness. And so for me, I always wanted to be a person who was light filled, a person who would focus on the light, stay in the light, even in darkness. So, yes, I've had to learn along the way. You know, sometimes I would get into spaces that were uncomfortable or unkind and I would shrink and I would dim my light. Don't be so this, don't be that. And then. But I would always go back to, no, that's not what any of those people did. So I'm not doing it either. I just. I will stay. Me and everyone else can stay who they are. Fine, no judgment. But I am going to use discernment. And I am going to move through my life like that. But if I have a life force, I know what I want my life force to be in the world. So I want people to walk away feeling hopeful or inspired or listened to or I like to laugh a lot. But I do enjoy life because I think that life is a privilege and living is a privilege. And just the idea of being alive and being here, knowing that we have a finite amount of time, gives me the reason to show up the way I wanna show up and do the very best that I can. But be very proud of myself even when I don't get it right. Proud of learning, proud of growing, proud of, well, I used to be like that. And I may not be exactly where I want to go, but at least I'm better than I was before. Or I could be in the present moment, I'm like, wait, I know better. And I used to Be this way. And it was really great. You know how some people always say, what would you tell your younger self? That question all the time. And for me, I always think I would tell my younger self. Nicole, don't change anything. I loved my 8 year old self. I loved my 10 year old self. I loved my 12 year old self. I mean, I. And I noticed when I got into my 20s, a lot of her went away.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Really?

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah. Yeah. What way? It just. I started thinking about what other people were thinking. I stopped listening to my intuition. I stopped listening just as soon as the first gut feeling came in. And then I would take that gut feeling and then go ask 20 people, what do you think about this feeling? Well, they didn't get the feeling. Everyone's intuition is not connected to everybody else's intuition. So it took me a long time to get back to that person that just. I heard that message. Yeah, I heard that in my heart. I heard that in my spirit. I just got it. So I need to honor that.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And stay in tune with that and not be so busy where I forget to disconnect. Oh, I don't have time to meditate. I don't have time to pray. It's two seconds. I just, you know, I just did everything else. So of course, you know, it's just managing time, making time, but getting back to that part of myself where I trusted myself. Mm.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

So you disconnected from that starting in your twenties and when did you reconnect where you felt like, oh, I Trust myself, late 20s.

[Nicole Avant]

I made a very big turn. And I remember being in this relationship and I. And it wasn't fulfilling, but the person was very kind and compassionate. But I had to learn that you can be with a kind and compassionate and fun person. But that is still energetically not a match. It can still drain you. It can still. And I was getting pulled on and pulled on and I was exhausted all the time, and I was never like that. And so I made this turn where I thought, you know, I need to stop asking myself, why do I keep attracting these type of people? And then ask myself, no, why am I attracted to this type of person? Not why are they coming into my life. I have, you know, people have lots to give. So lightworkers all the time will say, I don't know why I attract all these people that just drain me. And I said, because they're trying to plug in. You know, they want to plug in and get things. But it's always like the atm. I always try to tell my kids. I said, you know, if you look at yourself like an atm, you have to realize with people, some people are always going to make deposits or mostly deposits, and some people are only going to withdraw. And you have to figure out the balance here. Some people are going to do both. But you want more people depositing. You don't want someone only coming to you when they have a problem, when they're angry. Will you fix this? Will you do that? They won't take responsibility for their life. You. And then they want you to take responsibility. And then all of a sudden, you have no energy for yourself, for your intentions, because you're exhausted.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

And so it's. It's that knowing it's getting back to self. It's. It's becoming the hero of my journey again. And that I would always go outside of myself. And then I'm always. And at the end of day, you realize. I'm sure you did, too. Oh, I'm. What I. Who I've been looking for. It's me, you know?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. You know, I think. I think about every person listening right now. And this is going to be new for a lot of people, I think. I think. And I think it's going to ring true in a really strong way. I think there's a lot of people that I think were raised to just somehow. And it starts in their 20s, for a lot of women especially, they start taking care of everyone else, and then they think, okay, well, you know, if that person's happy, then I'm. Then. Then I'm good. Or if my kids are happy, then this is. And that. And then they don't even know who they are anymore. How to hear their own intuition, how to hear their own knowing, how to have discernment 100%.

[Nicole Avant]

You lose yourself. You lose yourself, and then you feel so guilty and sad because you miss yourself. That's where the sadness comes in, because you miss yourself. You miss that part of you that. Your spirit, your soul. And there's nothing wrong with everything you just said. Taking care of kids, being a good friend, being a good wife, all of these things. But you must take care of yourself so that you can give and be those things to other people. But you can't forget yourself. And I realized, Jamie, I was betraying myself. I was betraying my soul. I put everybody else in front of me. Everyone's dreams in front of everybody's. Everything before me. And then I realized it wasn't that I was just exhausted. I was also very sad because I betrayed myself. Mm.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Okay. So we're Gonna dive into so much about. Oh my goodness. So much about. So much.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I remember reading in your incredible book, think you'll be happy, which everyone needs to grab right now. We're gonna link it in the show notes. It's phenomenal. Phenomenal. And also the new paperback with the forward. Yeah, I'll get into that. But I'm remembering a part. Where is it? Did your mom not have a weekend to herself for 50 years?

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Okay, so I want to call this out because what you're saying right now, I already. I know when I feel it in my body that people at home are like, okay, I want to make that shift. I want to, you know, I want to prioritize myself. But maybe they saw a different. Something different growing up. And your mom, who is of course legendary, iconic, all the things people dream of being. And also to not take a weekend to herself in 50 years. So for you to see that, because she's pouring into everyone else, taking care of everyone else, doing all the things, and then how do you see that and then also decide for yourself to not maybe do that exact thing forever.

[Nicole Avant]

It was tough because when I married Ted, my husband, when I married Teddy, obviously my husband, when I married Teddy, he came, you know, he had two children, Tony and Sarah. They were 12 and 14 at the time, so lots of fun for me. And all of a sudden everything was the schedules just for, you know, this soccer, this baseball, this karate, this over and over homework, and then, you know, this, that, this, that all of a sudden, as all mothers go through. And then, you know, I'm with Ted and he has his big job and I. And all of a sudden I was thinking, right, right. And then, you know, we used to live near an elementary school that I used to go to. And I would see all the mothers early Saturday morning for the soccer and this and that. And I remember calling my mom one day and I said, oh my God.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment and share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this information can truly change your life and this theirs. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy. How to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, Build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for [e-mail] or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. [e-mail] or in the link in the show notes. Do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your Life. It's called 5 Ways to Overcome Negative Self Talk and Build self Love. And it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life. One filled with self love resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to Trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together.

[Nicole Avant]

We used to live near an elementary school that I used to go to, and I would see all the mothers early Saturday morning for the soccer and this and that. And I remember calling my mom one day and I said, oh, my God, I owe you an apology. I know you owe you a huge thank you because you never really. You never got a break. She's. Well, when you have children, where are you going? What do you, you know, I mean, yes, I might have traveled here and there for, you know, to go see my mother saying. But she said, you're always on. You have to be ready. You. You're a mother. You have a responsibility. You have things. So that's why I always say to people, if you can't physically be by yourself and you say, go away for a week. You know, a lot of people can't do that. They can't just leave for hours or whatever. But if. But I started waking up a little earlier, carving out a little more time for myself. Whatever it is that you can do for yourself, I don't care if it's 10 extra minutes in the morning. It makes the biggest difference in the world. It makes the biggest difference in the world because there's just no. Life gets many times a lot bigger as you get older. And when you do bring other people into your life, their life becomes a part of your life. And then your children's lives become a part of your life. And all of a sudden then you could feel very lost of, wait a minute, wait a minute. But it's also the greatest blessing to. To nurture and raise. And, you know, I look at Tony and Sarah, now they're 28 and 30 and thriving. And I'm so happy that the time I invested and the time that Teddy and I put into them and everything, and now we see that. But it was. It's a lot for women. And I think that the idea of dis. Anchoring from our soul and our needs and our. And just our sanity. We need our sanity. You know, it's if, you know, it says in scripture, if we have. If we're given power and love and a sound mind and we find ourselves out of power and out of love and not in sound mind, then you gotta get back and anchored in spirit. We have to get back and anchored in the divine. We have to get back. And for me, it's about. Even if it's five minutes in the morning, Jamie and I do it every night, but I started doing it morning and night. I appreciate my life. I appreciate being alive. I appreciate the fact that I have running water. I appreciate that I could take a bath. I appreciate that I could do. And then I realized as I was saying all these things that I can do, many of the things I wasn't doing, you know, So I have to just. So it's the idea of really getting back to being alive, what it takes to be alive, the energy it takes to be alive, but also reminding yourself that as we were saying about my mom, I mean, yes, she was alive and she was happy, and she loved being a mother and a wife. But when she said those words to me, nicole, I haven't had a real weekend in 50 years. I mean, you know, she's like, you're 53. Your brother's 51. I mean, what are you thinking? I'm married. I mean, where am I going? And she said, and I didn't come from that generation where you guys. Now, you'll say, you know, I need a day, and maybe you'll go away and you fight it out with your husband, but you go. She said, but I was born in 1940. We didn't have that. Mm. We didn't really get to do a lot of that. Mm.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I love what you shared, too. Getting up earlier, also, the ATM analogy. There's gonna be so many people listening right now. They're gonna just stop for a minute and think about their friends.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

People they spend time around, Are they making withdrawals over and over and over and over and over and over? Or are they. Like. When you're around them, do you feel like. Like you just feel. Feel like they made a deposit into your soul, or does it not feel that way? Exactly. And that's a really good.

[Nicole Avant]

And it helped me so much when I learned that. I thought, oh, and I still have the people in my life, but they do not have the same access. It just. The relationship changed. It didn't even have to be a conversation. I just kind of, you know, pull it. Just. You figure it out. But all of a sudden, you know, if you don't have your energy, if you don't have the gasoline to move in life and to do whatever you need to do and it's based on someone else's energy that's taking from you. When you really start to think about it that way. And as soon as you choose to prioritize yourself and prioritize, and not in a selfish way, but prioritize your soul, your energy, your life force, because it's such a gift. And the more you remind yourself, like, my time on earth is a gift. I don't know how much time I have. We all think we do.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

We don't know. So as often as we can, let's try and make the most of it. And yes, people will need us at times. Yes, people will really be pulling on us, but that's if they really need you. But I'm talking about the kind of just noise. There was so much noise, Jamie, in my life. There was so many, oh, did you hear this or did you? And it was just. Everything was just pulling me down, and I don't want to be like that. And you really. We all are responsible for who we want to be in the world, how we want to show up, what we want to give. But at the end of the day, my choices of how I spend my time, who I spend my time with, who gets managed, those are my choices. And those seeds that I plant today, that will be my garden in two months, that six months, a year from now. And so I have to focus on the seeds that I'm planting. My words, my actions, my energy, my thoughts. What am I doing today? Because it is gonna show up. And then the only person I can turn around and really be either really proud of or really upset is me. It's because it's my energy. Mm.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

What does your friendship circle look like right now? And has that changed over the years?

[Nicole Avant]

It has changed a lot in a really good way. And I have friends. You know, what I love is that my best. Best friends are from five years old. We still. We all grew up in Los Angeles together. We went to camp together. We did all the. We fully grew up together. And then, you know, maybe lost touch, but we always come back. And from COVID Something happened in Covid where I noticed, oh, my gosh, the people. I wanted my tribe, and it was my tribe from childhood that I wanted. And many of us are still in Los Angeles, so they've come back, which is great. And then I've really built a great circle of friends that are creative and smart and of service and very focused on the being. Very focused on being purposeful and not superficial purposeful, but really purposeful. And. And they're not. It's not about always being famous or fancy or this. It's just really being anchored in their souls. And so they. They show up. And I love my friends. I love being with my friends, and I love my girlfriends. And I also have a lot of male friends. I was a tomboy when I was growing up. I've always had more guy friends than girlfriends. Yes. And I noticed I'd started slipping away from the guy friends, and I was always so focused on my girlfriends because everyone kept saying, there's nothing like girlfriends, which is true. But for me, I realized, oh, wait, no, but my guys have been around for a long time, and they've protected me for a long time, and they have kept me aware of things and alert and just even about myself or when I became too hard or I was becoming, you know, they would call me, like, where's your grace? Where's. Where's the Nicole who could be tough, but who could also have a little grace? And, you know, a lot of women weren't saying that, but the men in my life were. But very supportive, very loving, and I need the male and female energy. For me, it's very, very important. And the male energy, I think we've all kind of pushed away, and it's only about female power. And for me, I'm like, no, power is power and good is good and light is light, and it doesn't matter. It's everything. So it feels good.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I know that about you. And I think I've done my research, by the way.

[Nicole Avant]

So that was a full. I mean, I. I didn't wear. I mean, I'm only in dresses and skirts now, but I didn't wear a dress. I mean, there's a prom picture of me where I had my soccer cleats on underneath. And my mom was horrified, so she didn't even take a full. Full length. She only took it from the calf up because she was like, take off those cleats.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And I said, I don't want to wear heels. I don't want to wear this stuff. But I loved sports. She put me in sports.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And I was so happy. I went to Olympic Boys and Girls Club. And my mom at the time was like, listen, it was right when they separated boys and girls sports. And she said. And it was the birth of girls sports. And she said, you need to learn how to compete. You need to learn how to be uncomfortable. You need to learn how to lose. You need to know what it feels like to win. And you also need to learn what it feels like to lose even after you've tried your best, because that is going to happen to you in life. You will try your best at something and do everything right and study your hardest and. And walk into that presentation and give the best presentation. And there will still be people who think, not right. Not right for me. Not good enough. Not this. And she said, I don't want you to be shocked when you get there. And so she thought, you know, competing in sports from a young age, and it definitely helped me for sure.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. Did it help you not fear it?

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

So much of my youth, especially with meeting new children, if I went to camp, for example, like this camp, sleep away camp, I was, oh, Mom, I don't want to go. What if I make no friends? What if, what if, what if, what if, what if? Yeah. And she'd turn around, what if you do make a lot of new friends? What if you do love your counselor? What if you do? So she would always give me the flip side, and she'd always say, nicole, you have an imagination. All of us have an imagination. It's working at all times, 24 7. You may not think it is, but you're always just like you said, what if no one likes me? What if I don't get along with the counselor? What if no one chooses me to be on the team? That is your imagination working. She said, now use it and flip it and imagine that you do make friends, or you make one friend or you do. So it was a really great gift that she gave me about remembering that I had an imagination and to imagine the best outcome, even if you don't get the best outcome, but try to imagine the best outcome, because what are you gonna do? Sit there and just create the worst thing?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Right, right. I love that, and I love that way of explaining it. I'm gonna use that for wonder and wilder.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. That's really, really good. Cause my daughter's at the age where she's starting to say things like that, being new to school, you know, and that kind of thing. We're doing an Easter party, and she. Which you're invited to, and adults, too. And she says, what if, like, you know, what if none of the kids from school come, like. So she's starting to ask those kind of questions. That's so beautiful, because earlier we were talking about planting seeds. You're like, would I plant the seed now? I'm going to have to answer that in a month. And those are. I love reading about and also seeing some of the Seeds your parents planted into you and kind of what they've blossomed into.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. And, you know, when you talk about discernment, you talk about friends, deposits versus withdrawals. My best friend, I was a waitress at Denny's. She was a waitress at the steakhouse across the street. It was way nicer. And we met in college. And my two closest friends, actually, I've been friends with long before any of the cosmetics successes or any of that. After. After the. You know, after we sold our business and after that was public everywhere and l' Oreal disclosed the purchase price, all the things that happen. I found that meeting new people was always a little bit different. And I always had to really try to. I still wanted to have an open heart, but it's different. You. I'm just gonna say it. You are undeniably one of the most powerful women in Hollywood. First of all, your husband Ted is co CEO of Netflix. How do you practice discernment over people's intentions when you meet them?

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah. Oh, that's such a. It's so funny you ask that. It's perfect timing because we just. I just was at a birthday party, and it was so great. But I noticed my discernment really kicking in. Or I noticed what my energy was attracted to and what it really was like, oh, wait a minute. What is this? But there was a gentleman standing next to me, and it's my friend's husband. And I didn't realize at the time I was just ordering my drink, and he was ordering his drink. And then I was talking to a girlfriend. But I heard over and over, yes, please. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yes, I would love a straw. Thank you. And it was a male voice. And I thought, who is this? Because it was so refreshing that someone. And this person is very powerful, extremely successful. And I'm listening to everybody else. No one's saying please. No one's saying thank you. No one's looking at the server. So I was looking around, and I'm thinking, hmm, Right. Okay. I usually know within my energy reader is really good.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And I think energy speaks volumes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

More than words. Because vibration tells me everything. And so when I've just decided now, you know, usually I discern by. I see how people treat other people. Like I was saying, that gentleman at the bar and how he was treating the server, the bartender was so powerful to me that actually told me everything I needed to know about him. I didn't care about anything else. I didn't care about how much money he has in the bank. I didn't care about how powerful he was. I didn't care about who he was in the world. I cared about how he treated another human being in that moment and that other human being who could absolutely do nothing for him. And it was such a great way for me to realize, right, this is a really good soul. That's a good soul. And now, you know, because I grew up in the entertainment business and I think because I saw so a lot of goodness, but also a lot of fake people and a lot of people who were just only transactional. And it's, it's a lot. And, And I feel for a lot of young people coming up in the business and becoming famous because you don't know right from left or who's pulling and everyone's pulling on you. But I think I got fortunate growing up in the business and my parents keeping me very grounded. And the way they did that was they made me work. So I. There was no question that I was not working. So I was a waitress, too.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You were a waitress too? I knew that I was a waitress too.

[Nicole Avant]

And I. And I. I was in the service business quite a bit. And I liked it. Yeah. And. But it was good for me because I would see the way. And I did the same thing with our daughter Sarah, as soon as she turned 16, 17. I'm like, okay, you're getting a job and she was a waitress. And when you serve others and you're not paid anything and you're constantly in the position to serve other people and they could be treating you horribly, it gives you.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment and share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this information can truly change your life and theirs. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you if you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and Love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. [e-mail] or in the link in the show notes.

[Nicole Avant]

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[Jamie Kern Lima]

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[Nicole Avant]

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[Jamie Kern Lima]

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[Nicole Avant]

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[Jamie Kern Lima]

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[Nicole Avant]

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[Jamie Kern Lima]

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[Nicole Avant]

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[Jamie Kern Lima]

The gifts are going away but they're all free right now on worthybook.com and now more of this Incredible conversation together.

[Nicole Avant]

When you serve others and you're not paid anything, and you're constantly in the position to serve other people, and they could be treating you horribly, it gives you a detector. I really do believe it. I think that a lot of people now are, oh, my kid, just only gonna do internships. They only do internships. And they only do internships where I know the people. There's not a lot of growth there. There's just not. You have to learn how to function and adapt and adaptability. And I think, you know, for me, it's. I just play on energy, and then I go into the judgment and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna judge, but I'm gonna discern of, okay. That's not an energy that I really wanna connect with a lot. But we're in the same room, so I'm gonna be me. But the idea of. I see people, Jamie, just give their power away, give their energy away to people that could care less. But they really do believe that. That they look at people, you know, that saying that I forget. There's some pastor who says, it's so great. I think it's Stephen Furtick. He's like, you know, there is a throne. There's somebody on it, and it's not me, you know, And. And. But so many people live as if they are on the throne, and every one must come to them. So for me, I think knowing who I am, knowing who I am in spirit, loving the divine, that for me, reminds me and keeps me grounded and focused. And I think I've seen people who aren't connected to anything, that it just. You can. And then you'll fall for anything, you know? And so I think just being rooted and grounded in truth, rooted and grounded in the divine, rooted and grounded in spirit, then whatever comes at you, you're anchored in something that is unshakable. But when you're not anchored in anything, you're floating all over the place and you have no discernment. You don't know who's telling the truth. You don't know what this person. You don't know anything. Yeah, that's. That's. That's what I see. So that's helped me a lot, is my faith has kept me sane, my faith has kept me grounded, my faith has kept me focused. My faith has. Has gotten me on track. It doesn't mean I've never gone off track, but it gets you back on track. You know, my mom used to say, mom, my goodness, we're not in the army. You're treating us like this. She says, listen, you're in my army, and it's called home training. And you will thank me when you're an adult. And I now, as an adult, I'm like, oh, wow, right? Thank you. You know, the thank you notes all the time. Of course, you write a thank you note. What is wrong with everybody taking that one extra step of everything she taught me? She would always say, you know, everybody wants a really great society. Everybody wants a peaceful society, but they don't want manners. They want good manners. Can't have you can't. It's one or the other.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Tell me about good manners. Tell me about good manners.

[Nicole Avant]

The good manners. I mean, you know, for my mom, a big thing for her was. And my dad, of course. Cause he's Southern. So, yes, I grew up in Los Angeles. And yes, I grew up in the entertainment business, but with a very Southern father. He was North Carolina, very backwoods North Carolina. And my mom is from New York. And if I had stationary, I was writing a thank you note at all times. But her thing was everything. If I encountered anybody, yes, please. No, thank you. Look at the person, finish the sentence. Nicole, how are you? Fine. And she'd say, no, fine, how are you? Finish the sentence. But manners are. You can't really. If you don't have good manners, then I don't really know where we go without them. Because. Because good manners really are just showing respect to whomever is in front of you. That's the point of having good manners. Whether the person gives them back to you or not is not the point. The point is to, like. We all have that saying, with all due respect. Well, what we're saying to that person is, with all due respect, everybody is worthy of respect. We don't always get it, but it doesn't mean you're not worthy of it. That's another lesson I had to learn. When people were disrespectful, I thought it was always me and what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And that, you know, as. As I think we talked about once, you know, that. Or all of our friends talk about this coat of shame that people like to wear. It's like, no, I'm taking this coat of shame off. I didn't even do anything wrong. You know, shame on you for being the person. I'm wearing the coat of your shame. What sense does that make at all? But we do that as humans. We do that as humans.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

You know.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know, when you share that you waitressed and you sold shoes. Oh, I sold shoes, worked at the dry cleaners. Here's the thing I want to call out that I love so much about some of the choices your parents made is because you were raised also Hollywood royalty, right? Hollywood realty. None of these things needed to happen, and they were lesson after lesson. Another one of the things I love so much about. Think you'll be happy your book is just seeing the lessons, seeing how the learnings they taught into you, the seeds they planted, and then how they've blossomed. I was at an event recently where they were talking about how important it is to prepare your child for the road. Don't prepare the road for your child. And we're kind of in this. This day and age, like you said, you know, only do the internship with people I know, and, you know, all the things. And we're sort of like trying to prepare the road for the child. But then they don't know how to handle stuff. They don't know how to deal with it. When someone wants to put their coat of shame on them, or they don't know how to handle tough times, or they're afraid of failure, they're afraid of rejection. And there's so many things you talk about that it's like, you know, your mom sending you out into the world. Like, okay, you're waitressing, you're learning about people. You. Then you and Ted, you know, having your daughter waitress, your son, and having those real life lessons that you're able to sit here and actually know what things feel like in your soul and your spirit. When someone is, you know, divinely supposed to be someone you connect with, or you kind of feel it in your body. Like, you know, I'm imagining, you know. Cause my husband Paulo and I do this for each other a little bit. But do you and Ted, like, do you ever feel like you have to protect him or he protects you when someone comes up and you just know, like, they want something?

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I bet it happens all the time.

[Nicole Avant]

All the time? Yeah, all the time. And, you know, then. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thank you. Okay, great. But Ted is very. He can see things that I can't see sometimes. And I do the same for him. It's like you and Paula, and it's important to have that partner or that friend, that person that can see or pick up on that we might miss the intentions of someone or. But going back to your point about the. I just love what you just said because the preparation on being human, this is on being human. We're on the planet Earth. Things do not just conform to your liking for anybody. And so the idea that there are so many, there's a new generation of. Of people, young people, that have zero idea of how things really work, or not in tune with their feelings because they haven't been allowed to feel anything in order to protect them from feeling bad. But then they have nothing. And they're not robots. These are human beings, and they're going to get their feelings hurt and people aren't going to be nice to them, and people are not going to be fair or just or what have you, but you have. They have to learn how to be in that, and they have to learn how to hopefully choose not to want to be like that. But the Earth is hard. It's beautiful. Life is beautiful, and life is a gift. But life is also hard. It's a blessing, and it's also very challenging. I wouldn't change it for the world. I love being alive, but I would be lying sitting here and to anyone listening that life is. Oh, it's just so great. And it's always so perfect and it's always so wonderful, and you get exactly what you want. I don't care how much you. How many affirmations you say, how many good intentions you put out. Yes. Do those things work? Sure, it's great. I do them every day. Does life still throw you a curve ball sometimes here or there? Yes. And we have to be ready for those curve balls because they are showing up. And. And you just have to look at life and know that they're showing up. You know, I went to Children's Hospital one day and I walked out. I walked in with, I can't believe this person did this. And I can't believe this person. Just silly, stupid things.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

I walked out of Children's Hospital. I'm thinking, oh, my Lord. Oh, my gosh. I'm looking at these parents looking at their children, not knowing how long their children are going to be alive, thinking about them working three jobs, and then they come and see their children who. Or their child who's, you know, got, you know, tubes all over, and just shifting perspective, just reminding you, this is why we all need to tread lightly, walk as gently as guys. I don't know what's going on in everyone's life. I. I don't. I used to be a huge per. I used to be the person that was always on the horn, like, hurry up, get. You know, and then you realize as you get older, like, you don't you know? We just don't know. We don't know. I don't know everyone's story. I know this much of everyone's story when I meet someone and I'm making a judgment, I'm making a judgment on this much of that person's story, because that's basically all I know.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know, I love that you're already talking about faith in your life. And one thing I want to call out right away. I think we probably have both had friends that have been in incredible, whether it's a job title or a big thing where they're known for something. And I dated a pro athlete when I was much younger, and it was the first time I ever witnessed someone that didn't actually ever have to learn how to make friends because everyone just wanted to be around. And I was like, wow, this is fascinating. And then I've seen people lose that thing that was the source of sort of like external significance. And in the course of that, lose a whole lot of who they thought were friends. And if they don't have that grounding identity in something, you know, in my life, faith of who you are and also just the awareness and ability to do your best to discern and who is supposed to be my life. Like, every day I pray God brings the right people in my life and has the wrong ones leave 100 I same prayer. Do you?

[Nicole Avant]

All the time. Yeah, I do. I really do. I always say, you know what, God, if this person is, I'll take a lesson, you know, and look, we need people in our lives that do challenge us.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And that do bring us pain, because that's when the soul grows. You can't have growth without a challenge. You can't have growth. You can't learn about boundaries until someone tests your boundaries. You can't learn about your worth, really, until we know it. But then when people start really tapping on it, like you've said so many times, it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute. And I've seen the same thing, Jamie. So many people who've never had to do anything because everything came to them. And so they were grounded in nothing, and they were anchored in nothing. And when you. Not when you're not anchored. And then the tides come. We've seen it, and it's disastrous. Most of the time, it's disastrous. And so that's why I try. I do the same thing. I always say, oh, you know, thank you for bringing the right people into my life. Thank you for removing under grace with ease hopefully as many as possible. The ones that are meant to leave, please, you know, and whatever lesson I was, I was supposed to receive, I will look at it and take the lesson because I always want the blessing, but I also want the lesson because I need to grow. You can't grow without the lessons.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

So true. I remember, you know, being so proud, and I am to this day, and my team, we built a team of over a thousand people growing at cosmetics. And I was like, these are my ride or die. These are my family. Like I said, just love them. I'm also aware that when you're the boss and it's also a different relationship. And I'll never forget when we sold the company to L', Oreal, I stayed on as CEO. I gave him my word, I would say for three years. And I still was working 100 hour weeks. So we doubled the size of the business. First two years post acquisition, everything's going great. And what started shifting was now l' Oreal decided who got promotions, who got raises. Stuff started changing, shifting. And it was the first time where there were people I thought, oh, they're my. And they started a couple, not a lot. A couple of people started completely changing because now I wasn't determining their salary, their raises, if they got a huge, you know, jump to a big position. And I watched it and I'm like, oh, wow. And at first I was really heartbroken. I was heartbroken. I felt like, oh, that wasn't a real. Not that it's a friendship, but it wasn't. You know, I thought it was a sort of ride or die loyalty.

[Nicole Avant]

Sure.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And I was like, whoa. And you know, we've all had experiences like that in different ways in our life. And the more I have them, the more I try to tune in and go, okay, how did that feel? Let me see. Could there have been other signs leading up to it or that person maybe was that way? Because I'm in this position at the time and then I'm now not in a different position.

[Nicole Avant]

And.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And so it's kind of like the whole transactionality, people are their real friends versus deal friends and just. Right. And just getting more tuned into it. But in that experience, had I not been grounded in faith and I just been about maybe what power seemed to look like in that environment, that would have been really hard. It would have been really hard.

[Nicole Avant]

And I've seen that. I've seen that happen to a lot of girlfriends where they had their friends, they built a big company, same thing. And the ones that were rooted In. Grounded in faith. Even my friend, thank God she was rooted and grounded in faith. But then I had other friends in the same position. Not rooted and grounded in anything. Thought everything came from herself. Thought she was the, you know, the creator of the universe.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

And when it all came and everyone would just leave and she had nothing.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And no one.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And it's heartbreaking.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

You know, you've probably seen.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I'm imagining a lot of people who get fame in, whether it's the music industry or acting or any other industry, and then if that ever goes away.

[Nicole Avant]

Oh.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And they're not grounded.

[Nicole Avant]

They're not grounded. They have. You know, they think it's gonna. You know, my mom always used to say, also, I used to go to this surfing camp and my mom used to say. I said, mom, I was under this wave and I thought I was never, ever going to come up. It just kept coming over and over. And she said, yes, but you always come up. But what did it teach you? You have to ride the wave. And there are waves in life, you know, you've got to ride. And some are going to be really smooth and cool and you're going to love it. And then some are just going to take you down. And I have seen the people who just only focus on the pretty, shiny object, and they think that the pretty, shiny object is going to stay there forever or that status is going to stay there forever or a title is going to be that for. It changes. Things change. Life moves, People go away. Things happen. And then, like we said, and then there's. And all of a sudden it's there. In quicksand.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

They're in the sand. And they built a foundation in the sand. You cannot build. You cannot do that. It's just. It's not stable. And the only thing that's stable for me is my faith. It's the only thing that I can depend on. It's the only thing that's not going to change on me. The truth doesn't change. The truth is truth. So the good news is that it doesn't change on me. It's not going to be like, guess what? Just joking. Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know, have you always had strong faith? Have you ever doubted it?

[Nicole Avant]

When I was younger, I would doubt things because I think. As I think a lot of us did, maybe, maybe not you. But when I was younger, because I never understood that bad things could happen to good people because I didn't understand what faith was. So when I was younger, I said, oh, I have faith in anybody. Who has faith. That means that nothing bad happens to you. And if you have faith in God, then everything's gonna be okay, because God's gonna handle everything. Well, yes, the divine will handle everything, but it still doesn't mean that, you know, bad things happen to good people every single day.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

And you could be a child, you could be an adult, you could be white, you could be black and brown. Yellow doesn't matter. And we have to remember that. And so, you know, it rains on the just and it rains on the unjust. And we have to remember those things and still decide who do we want to be? Which side do I want to be on? It's not about being perfect. It's not. Of course we're going to make mistakes. We all miss the mark. But my mom would always say, I'm trying to teach you everything. And I'm strict on you. Not because I don't think you're going to not make a mistake. I know you'll leave home base. She used to call it home base. I know you'll go off in the wilderness and do things that you regret, but you will have a home base to come back to. That's the danger. If I don't create the truth, if I don't create a place that you can come back to, that you can reground and reroute yourself. That's where it gets dangerous. And I do see that a lot of the people I know in the business, film, television, athletes, especially athletes, they get older and, you know, and they don't play as well and they're not on the team anymore and they go through something. And again, the people that I've noticed that are rooted and grounded in faith, are rooted and grounded in something outside of themselves and serve other people. It's usually many athletes I know who've done really well. It's usually they. They create organizations that have to do with children and putting children in school and scholarships. It's always giving back and they come right back up. It's very interesting.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes. Because your identity is bigger than just that thing.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

This is applicable to every person. I mean, everybody could be the person that's, you know, worked at the bank for 20 years, loses their job. And if it's like you're not rooted and grounded, or you somehow get kicked out of a friend group or the PTA turns on you. I don't know, just whatever. Like we all have these exact experiences. And I'm just thinking too, Nicole, that, you know, with your book, think you'll Be happy. Oh, my gosh. Don't even get me started on. I feel like, of course, it's this. And inspiring memoir. A course for anybody going through grief or. Or. Or wanting more grit and grace and gratitude in their life. I mean, it's so powerful. It's so moving. Also, what I was just thinking right now that keeps coming to me is. And this is separate. I. I don't know that this is even what the book was intended to do, but holy moly. This is an incredible parenting guide. And. And what I say by that is, there are so many things your dad has said. Hysterical, by the way. I love when someone loves Jesus and drops F bomb. Oh, yeah, that's a whole other thing. I love it. But, like, there are just so many just. Just seeds in here. I'm taken as a mama, and I am planting them in my kids. So this is like a whole other. Whole parenting guide. I mean, there are so many things in here that are so good, and there's so many things you've come out with and said that surprised me and also are gonna resonate so strongly with people, even just about things like progress in our country, things about victim mentality. And so I'm excited to dive into that. And I really, you know, I've, of course, watched so many just powerful interviews you've done, and there's some out there that dive really deep into the book, and I want everyone to go pick up. You'll be happy. Because no interview could do the book justice. I mean, you have to read it. And for anyone hearing about the book for the first time, can you just share what happened December of 2021?

[Nicole Avant]

So December of 2021, I received a call from my husband middle of the night, and his words were, nicole, get up and get to the hospital. Your mom's been shot. And of course, you know, it's 2 in the morning. I'm discombobulated. I'm like, what? What are you talking about? What are you talking about? What? And I didn't even think she was talking. Where was she? And then I said, no, she wasn't. I'm thinking I'm dreaming. And I said, yeah, I just talked to her. Yeah, six hours ago. I just talked to her.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And I got to the hospital again, not knowing what had happened, not knowing that there was, you know, a robbery gone bad. And I got to the hospital, and I'm waiting with my father. And, you know, and then, long story short, we get the news that, you know, she crossed over, and she did not make it through surgery. And it just. As you can imagine, you know, I was 53, and I. My mom was 81. And I thought in that moment, Jamie, I just. Just. It's interesting because the way my husband describes it, you know, my brother was at the end. I remember it. Alex wailed, wailed, wailed like. Like a wounded animal. His girlfriend got very quiet, trying to console him. Then my father was next to me. He fell into me. My dad was 90 and a half. He was almost 91. He falls into me. But Ted says, nicole, you sat up like this Phoenix. You just rose. He goes. And I knew in that moment, he goes, there was this spirit within you that was taking over that. But it was covering in light. But okay, I became the matriarch. I became Jacqueline Avon. I became. Oh, my God. I'm the matriarch of my family. Oh, my goodness. And in the worst tragedy, everyone was scared. Everyone's confused. But I remember. I remember just saying, okay, I'm standing in my faith. I'm standing in my faith. Okay? I just. Okay, I don't understand what's happening. But I noticed I had to keep talking to myself and say. And I would just, you know, I praise the Lord, his mercy endures. For I would say, it's so interesting how you go back to childhood prayers, memories, things, and just trying to move forward and stand, you know. And I had a night, like I said, I had an almost 91 year old who just became widowed. And I don't have anything for that. I'm like, okay, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So that is what happened on December 1, which took me down a whole different journey. And it definitely challenged my faith, but made it so much stronger. And then that's how I just. And then think you'll be happy. Like we said, my mom, six hours before that, we were talking about with sweet potato pie that my dad took home from Thanksgiving. Cause that's what my father would do, is bring me a gift and then take it home with him. He's like, well, no one touched it, so I'm taking it home. And my mom was so mortified and pissed off. And we would laugh about this cake pie. And I was like, mom, okay, enough with the pie. But you know what's interesting about discernment and energy? I was writing my mom a text, and I was a little snarky. I was being a little sarcastic when I was writing her back. And I was like, oh, my God, you, lady with you and this pie, relax, calm Down. I was trying to be funny, but it was a little sarcastic hand on a stack of Bibles. I heard my intuition immediately, Holy Spirit immediately said, do not send the text. She's not going to think it's funny. So I delete, delete, delete. Then I rewrote the text, center it. Sent her her favorite emojis. And when I look back on that, because I don't have any regrets with her, because I was able to clean up a lot of, you know, we were able to talk through a lot of stuff. But had I sent that text and had that been the last thing that I said to my mom with the tone, would have. Would have just destroyed me, would have just broken my heart over and over and over again. And so I'm bringing that up for any listener to say. When you hear your intuition tell you something, listen to it. It doesn't mean intuition isn't logical. It's not linear. It doesn't make sense all the time. But it always has your back. It really always has your back. And I learned it in the hardest moment. And I look back at that text, I'm like, oh, thank God I took the sarcasm out. Thank God I took. And thank God I listened. Literally, I put the phone down. I was about to hit, and just, you know, you hear it in your heart. Don't send that. Don't send that. And you know, now I know. And it's in the book where my mom's friends were saying she had a weird feeling that day. She just was feeling a little off. She, she. She just. She knew something. She just didn't know what she was dreading. She knew. I thought it was. It was a school shooting that day in Michigan, in Oxford, there was a terrible shooting. And I thought, this is what it is. And I called my dad. I said, dad, Mom's taking a nap. Because if you look at the news, there was another school shooting. And for the. I'm telling you, Jamie, that's the one thing that she really was so disappointed in our country and just who we are as a people, not laws, as people. Because she said, nicole, I was born in 1940. I'm telling you, in 81 years, I never, ever thought ever that we'd be, every month, children going in and killing their classmates every somewhere. She just, she said that's the one thing that just really shocked her where she, you know, there was just such a disconnect in humanity. There was such a disconnect of children at home, children with their parents, where are their families, how no one knows anything. She just was so disturbed by that. And it's interesting that it was that day that that happened. And then the next morning, she was gone. Just gone.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And you're talking to her about the pie?

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

She's telling you to get it.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I think you'll be happy.

[Nicole Avant]

Think you'll be happy, she said. I said, mom, okay, I'll get the pie. I send the text, and then she writes right back, okay. Think you'll be happy. And when I again, when I look back now, or when I looked back at that as I was writing this, of course those were going to be her last words to me, because my mom would always. She was very big on happiness, and she knew the difference of being a happy soul versus being a happy person all the time. There is a difference. You're not going to be happy every single day. That doesn't mean that's not when you're happy. But being a happy soul, being a grateful soul, being a soul that's thankful and appreciative, that leads to joy, that leads to delight. That's what she meant by happy. And also she meant, think happy thoughts. Think positive thoughts. Think constructive thoughts. Happiness is also about constructive thoughts. Not just, oh, everything's gonna work out the way I want to when it's gonna happen. Oh, but think constructive thoughts about yourself, about other people, about what you want to see in the world. But be constructive. Because she was so big on choice, Jamie. She was always, you have a choice. You could be negative. You could be positive. Pick one. Pick you get every two, every second, you get to choose, no matter what happens. And that's why after she was killed and taken away from us the way she was, I thought, wait a minute. She lived 81 years and great years, and she did so much for so many people and was so strong. I'm not going to have. When everyone Googles Jacqueline Avon. Oh, it's only going to be Jacqueline Avon was murdered at 81 years old during her home invasion. No, she was so much more than that. And I'm going to talk about it, and, yes, that will still come up. But there's so much more now. And people get to know her through this book and her parenting skills and her life lessons that she shared with me and that I wanted to share with readers and. Because life is messy and it's complicated and. But after Covid, I just thought, you know, and I shared a birthday with my mom.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

And so we had that very.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

March 6th, March 6th, my sister's birthday.

[Nicole Avant]

Right.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah, you're, you know, and you say, you know, the lessons you're sharing. It's like, now I'm sharing these lessons with my kids, with my, you know, it's so powerful. Your mom was big on vibration.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Right. Can you share about, like, the radio station analogy?

[Nicole Avant]

Oh, yes. She'd always say to me, nicole, you know, if you look at yourself as a radio tower and think about when you're in the car with me and you say, I don't want to listen to KROC anymore, I want to listen to KISS fm, she said, all we do is turn it off. And you don't, you have no, you're not controlling what happens, but you, you change the knob and the knob tunes into a different vibration and then you get KISS versus KROC versus, you know, whatever. And her point was, you have to think of yourself as a radio station and what you're emitting, what are you putting out. And if you don't like it, change. Change your thoughts, change your words. And as soon as you change your thoughts and your words, your vibration is going to change. And when your vibration changes, I, for example, I would be the most prepared in journalism class. I would do this. But if I wasn't sleeping a lot. Yeah. If I worked all night, if I was on the phone, I was talking about nothing to my friends the next day, even though I was intellectually prepared and I knew everything and I knew how to present, my vibration was low because I was talking about nothing, gossiping about nothing, doing nothing. And the vibration. So what I was tuned into, Tuned into friends that were not going on the same path as me. Yes. Tuned into just low vibration things. And then my vibration was down. So her whole point was, at least have the intention to have the highest vibration possible for the day. And however you're going to get there, it's. If it's through music, if it's through dance, if it's. And when I say dance and music, I don't mean you have to go join a dance class or take music lessons. Sometimes you turn on the radio, you dance for two seconds in your room, your vibration is going to change, you know, so, so she was, she. And she was so right about that and music. Because growing up in the music business and being around artists, when I was in the studios listening to music and watching people write music and the engineers, everybody putting the song together and just the vibration that they wanted, I noticed, like, wow, this really, this really is real. This is. And that's why we can listen to A song I can ask you, you know, if you. Any song in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and if we play it, we'll remember which boy we had a crush on, you know, which party we were at or somebody hurt my feelings. And this, you know, and I was at the park. We remember things through music.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

Isn't it fascinating?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know, what I just think is so profound, too, is how, you know, we're in 2025, so many people are just hearing about this idea of vibration for the first time. Your mom is teaching you these when, you know, Oprah was the very first guest on the show and we talked about how wild it is that, you know, the first time she was ever talking about the word mindful. And the whole country's like, what's happening? And there was sort of this backlash or remembering your spirit, different things on your show. And it just like now, you know.

[Nicole Avant]

People can't get away from it because.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

They'Re saying mindfuls everywhere. And I think about. And that's just another reason, one of the many reasons I love your book so much and why I'm excited to talk about it, why everyone listening is gonna get so much value out of it.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Because these seeds, these learnings, these lessons, these things that, you know, I think are really inspiring. And you just said something, Nicole, I want to touch on where you explained when you learn the news that your mom passed and your brother's wailing and your 90 and a half year old dad leans onto you and you realized in that moment, I think you said you felt your mom almost take over your body in the book and you realized in that moment you're the matriarch. I just think about so many people listening who have had a moment like this, and it may not be that someone had passed. It may be that they realize in their 30s, oh, wait, I'm having to take care of my kids and also my parents for the first time. Oh, wait, I'm now having to take care of my in laws and myself somehow. And, you know, my niece or we have this moment where things shift in our life and we realize we're the matriarch.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

What was that like for you? Like, how did that feel and what's your insights to navigating that?

[Nicole Avant]

I felt very confused. I felt very heavy. I felt, I felt untethered a little bit like unanchored. Unanchored and. But I also felt a sense of, in a positive way, a sense of. You know, my dad always used to say, loved to say, you know, it Is what it is. What are you gonna do about it? It is what it is. And I felt myself in that moment. Okay, do not deny. My mom always used to say, you can't pretend it didn't happen, Nicole. You can't pretend it didn't happen. And I heard her in that moment, just, this has happened. So first, let's accept what's happened. First. You have to, just because you're in shock, you're in trauma, you're interested. But the insight I have about it is, you know, I mean, I know everyone says, and it's so cliche, but it's true. Perspective is everything. And the perspective I had was, okay, we're just going to stand in the truth and not deny anything. And it may not be what I. Obviously it was not what I wanted. It was not what I expected, you know, for the 30 year old out there who's now taking care of in laws that they didn't expect that to happen or you don't expect a child to get sick. You don't expect to have to work three jobs, four jobs to take care of this sick child. There's so many things that happen unexpectedly and that feel like such burdens and it doesn't mean that they aren't. But how we choose to look at it is makes all the difference in the world. And honestly, accepting what is before you even decide how you're going to do anything else, accepting what is. Because my dad would always say, when I would say, why do you mean by that? He said, it is what it is. Not trying to push you away. I'm trying to say, accept whatever situation, be truthful about what happened. And then out of the acceptance, you make a decision on how you're going, your next move, your next play. And he was trying to teach me, Jamie, that when you're in constant spinning and constant. I can't believe this happened. I can't believe this happened. I can't believe this happened. He goes, good luck trying to make a good decision out of that good luck. He's like, you gotta, you have to just look at it. You have to look at it for what it is. And like I said, you know, it's whatever life throws at you. It's like, okay, okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to do my best and be my best and make the best even out of the worst situation possible. I mean, I started pretending I was Pollyanna because Pollyanna never said pretended that things were okay. She looked for what to be glad about in the worst situation. That's the Pollyanna story. She didn't fake anything. This terrible thing happened. What do I have to be thankful for in my life? What do I. What can I say? I appreciate what, for me, it was. I have. Okay. This is terrible that this happened to my family. It's terrible that it happened to my father, but I have my father. Oh, my gosh. And I live here, and he can get to come home and live with me. And now we're going to eat every meal together, and my dad and I are going to start over together. And all of a sudden, it became, I get to do this. This is this. But this is how we're going to move forward. And that's what I told my dad. I don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. I have zero idea what just happened to us. But I do know that we're on this earth together. We have a little time left. I don't know how much time I have with you. But, dad, you're not alone. We're gonna make the best out of this. And this is what family is. This is what we do. And you've been here for me all my life through the ups and downs. And now I'm here for you in your worst moment.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And your dad came to live with you and Ted, and when you were going through the initial grieving process, the whole start of it all. Will you tell me? Because this is, I think. I think this moment where you and Ted were so declarative. Oh, yeah, right. The moment where you and your husband, Ted, said, made the declaration, we are going to stay together. Because what a lot of people talk about is that, you know, when all these shifts happen in life, it can take a toll on everybody.

[Nicole Avant]

Anybody. And I know exactly. I've read the statistics. You've read the statistics. We all know when tragedy strikes, many families fall apart.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

When it struck mine, I can see how. Because you're just so shattered in so many ways, and you're trying to pick up the pieces and put yourself back together, let alone somebody else.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

So that's why Ted and I just looked at each other. I said, listen, this is good. I don't know what this road is going to look like, but I do know that I am dedicated to you. I do know that you're dedicated to me. And we now have to declare to each other that no matter what happens, we are staying together. No matter what. Because I knew if I didn't declare it, I knew if we didn't say it and look at each Other in the eyes that anything could have really happened and anyone would have understood. It's such a life changing moment and a shift in your spirit and a shift in your energy. My father came to live with us in the house Ted was never expecting. You know, my parents come live with us. I mean, my parents have lived in the same house for 56 years. And, you know, they were so full of life. And, you know, we knew they weren't living forever, but no one expected a tragedy, and no one ever expected that we'd have any of them come live with us. That was a whole new situation. And Ted, God bless him, was really great with my father. I mean, they had a great relationship, thank God, but it got much deeper. And Ted had a good relationship with his father, but he always says, you know, he kind of said, I think in his forward, he didn't. His dad didn't really understand the business he was in, and my dad did. And so they had so much to talk about. And so all of a sudden, living with my father, it was a master class on life all over again from Clarence Avant. And for Ted, he was like, give it to me, tell me. And he could come home and say, this is what happened at Netflix today. Can you believe this stuff? And my competitors are saying this, and my dad's like, this is what you do. And then I remember when this happened to me in 1968, and this happened to me, and it was so great for all of us. So there was. There was a shift that was made, but we had to lean into it.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And then, like you said, we declared to each other, we are staying together no matter what. And there will be ups and downs and times where we are just not connected. And you're not gonna understand my grieving process and you're gonna just. I need you to. You don't have to understand it, but I need you not to crap on it. I need you not to say, don't be like that. Cause a couple of times he's like, you gotta get over that. No, no, no, no. Let me just get through this the way I get through it, and you get through it the way you're gonna get through it.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I took this away from the book. That moment with you and Ted just declaring, we're deciding we're gonna stay together no matter what, through this, whatever happens. And for me, it was this huge, I guess, aha moment where I thought about moments in my marriage and I thought about things I've gone through, and I've thought about times in the past 15 years, where I'm like, this could go either way. This could go either way. And I just thought, this is really powerful and profound because sometimes couples make it, or hope makes it or faith makes it, by, like, hanging on one more day and believing for one more day. And what I love about what you and Ted did was it's a decision. Oh, yeah, we're gonna make this through. And we're declaring. We're gonna get through this. We don't know what's coming. It might be a windy road, it might be tough. It might not be. But we're just gonna declare right now. We're staying together through this. The safety that gives you, even on a bad day, or even, like, for me personally, that would give me. I would probably be less feisty. I'd be like, all right, whatever the bat. You know what I mean? And I just thought, wow. Like, that's one of the things. One of the many reasons I'm excited for this conversation, but also for every person listening to get think you'll be happy, is because for me personally, just the number of lessons I took away from it because we learned so much through the power of other people's stories. Right? Yes. And other people's lessons are like, whoa.

[Nicole Avant]

That's why I put all the lessons in the book, because I thought, you know what? This is an offering.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

I'm not gonna make this. Not gonna sugarcoat my life. I'm not gonna pretend that I was the perfect wife, perfect daughter, perfect. This. My mom was the perfect mom. This is the time for healing. And my mom would have wanted that.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

So I could feel my mom while I was writing. I said, oh, Mom, I want to tell this story about our birthday, and I want to tell the story about how you. I said, you know, you didn't do this. You didn't. You know, I wanna. And then when I declare it to her, well, it's complicated. Until it's not complicated. And now I'm saying it's no longer complicated. It was right after Covid.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I want to talk about that. This is really, really big because, you know, in our conversation today, and in Remembering to live.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Remembering to live.

[Nicole Avant]

Remember to live.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I feel like just about everybody who's listening, who's watching us right now is gonna think about their life right now. When I share this story and when I ask you to share this about your mom. When I was, you know, I was adopted, and I didn't know I was adopted. It was kept a secret until I was 29. Long story. I mean, I searched for my birth mom forever, finally found her. All the things, learned that, that. That her mother held me the day I was born, and then. But never my birth mom. And. And I was adopted. And the parents that raised me, I. I'm closer to my mom. She's passed now, but the mom that raised me, my mom, nine. I'm closer to her than any person in the world. Like, I just. And I would not change a thing. Meanwhile, fast forward, I have the gift of meeting my birth mom and getting to know her. She's in my life now. And I realized that it always kind of bothered me that she never held me. And with this idea, which is something that's almost embarrassing to say out loud, or you think, oh, no, I'm a educated, badass, powerful woman. Why would it bother me that my birth mom never held me? And Nicole, just with this story I'm about to have you share and also the intention of our whole conversation today, which is like, remember to live. I decided to remember to live. And I told her. I told her we were together at the beach house and. And I was 41 at the time. 47 now. And I said to her, like, will you hold me like a baby? And my birth mom is half my size. Okay, Half my size. I'm 41. I climb on her lap. She held me like a baby, and we both just sobbed. And it was this moment for us of, like, I felt like I let her see me without trying to, you know, be the. Be whatever I thought she would want me to be. And there's a lot of us that feel like, oh, I kind of wish my parent had done this, or I wish my mom or my dad did this differently. And then maybe we ignore that need because we don't want to. We feel like, oh, but I should just be grateful for whatever it might be. And so will you share about what you shared with your mom?

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah, it was kind of, you know, my mom, as great as she was, and she did everything for us. Packed my lunch every day, took me to school every day, every practice, travel, this, that, everything. But there was a part of her that just. She wasn't super, super affectionate. I'd get hugs and kisses, but she wasn't. All my friend's parents, they'd get out of the car to go to school. I would hear as I'm walking to class, love you. Love you. You too, mom. See you later. I'm like, hey, you know, And I knew my mom loved me, but I'm like, why aren't you saying, I love you? Why aren't you doing this? And so I remember saying this to her at one of our lunches, and she. Our birthday lunches. And she said, you know, Nicole, I showed you my love through my actions. That. That's the way I love. Like, I. You know, but. But of course, it was like, well, I did this. Didn't I do this? Well, didn't I do that for you? Didn't I do this? And I said, I know everything you did. I'm just saying, just like, kind of you. I felt a little bit like I know I'm this powerful woman and this and that. I just want to know why didn't you say this? Or why didn't you do this? And it's interesting because my mom's attitude was, I think all of you forget or all of us, all humans. She said, you know, this is my first time doing this, too. And I was. A light bulb went off, and I went, oh, right. She goes, that's the first time I went. I grew up and became a mom. This is the first time I'm doing this, doing the best I can here, you know, And I learned what I did for my mom and for my grandmother, but I'm doing the best that I can. And I just. I realized in that moment that I wasn't. I was so focused on what I. What she didn't do or what I thought she didn't do or what I thought she didn't give me versus what she did. But also that we just. Like, you needed that hug. You needed. You needed to be held.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

We need things. And I love that my mom was able to say thank you for telling me this, because I want to apologize, because I did pinch your heart. I. I did hurt you at times. Never intentionally, but I. I know that I did. And I'm happy that we're having this conversation now. Yeah. Because without, again, it's on being human. It's being alive. It's having conversations, even if they're difficult. It's trying, at least the intention of having a conversation to say, listen, you may not understand this. It may mean nothing to you, and it's okay if it means nothing to you, but I'm saying this for me, just so I can. So I can validate it in my heart that I said it. You could say I'm crazy, You could say, I disagree, but I'm saying it for myself. And it was so great because it was healing for both of us. I was able to express my Feelings. And she was able to say, I never thought about it that way.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And you're right. And she didn't even say, you're right. Just, I never thought about it that way, and I did not mean this, and thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

How old were you when you told her?

[Nicole Avant]

I.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And how old was she?

[Nicole Avant]

I was. I was in my. Well, I just finished that book. I was so into Louise Hay, and you could heal your life. And I loved that book so much. So I read that at 24. And so my mom was in her 50s at the time. She's 28 years older, so whatever that equals. And she said, you know, she's the one who gave me the book. She's the one. And then I. Of course she felt that I turned on her. She gave me all these lessons through that book, but it was. It was such a good moment, again, of validation, but it brought us closer together because she said, I didn't know this about you. You never really expressed it as a child. And then I was able to hear her say, you know, and I've thought about things, and I am now 80, you know? And then when we had the final conversation, she goes, I'm 81 now. And we've gone through Covid. And believe me, everybody who sat home, she said, I just rewound my life. And I had time to sit and think, and I had time to reflect. And all of a sudden it was like, ooh, ooh, maybe, you know, let me. Let me. Let me have. Let me. Let me sit with Nicole and check in on her and. And see how she's doing.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

You know?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. I love what you said so much. She said so much. Cause I actually think right when you said that, I'm like, so many people are gonna heal in this moment where you said that. She said, this is my first time being a mom.

[Nicole Avant]

It's my first time.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

It's my first time.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And it's like, when you think about your parents that way, we all think.

[Nicole Avant]

They'Ve lived a thousand years.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Right. They just should know everything. How did they not do that to me?

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah. Why did you not. How did you not fulfill that need? Yes. But I really think. And when she said it, it was right. You're not a dinosaur. Right. You haven't been here forever. You just got here.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

And this is what you're doing. And as she said, she said, listen, I didn't get everything from my mom. My mom was a great, a good, very good person. She was never Home. She was working. She was doing this. And she was. But she had me do this. She said, everyone's trying to be better. She said, my mom did better than her mom. Her mom, she said, so as long as it's evolving, yeah, you're in a good place if it's, you know. And it was a good lesson for me too, of, oh, right, I've held you on this. I've put you on this throne that you are the know all and be all and you can never make a mistake. And how dare you not understand something. And granted, I know that everyone who's listening, there's different levels, you know, of things. So I understand that. But I'm not saying, you know, for example, like, you know, God forbid you have a mom that, you know, abuses you physically, emotionally. I'm not talking about that. That's. That's a whole different beast.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Right.

[Nicole Avant]

But it's still. We're all human. Yeah, we're all human.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

When your dad moved in with you and Ted, was it. Am I remembering right? Did Ted's dad pass away like a week before your mom?

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Nicole Avant]

I was literally planning my father in law's funeral in Arizona, and I was doing the menu. I remember that day. It's also why my mom and I were texting instead of on the phone, because she called me. I said, mom, I've got to finish Grandpa Ted's. I've got to finish the menu. Or I don't know if we're serving lasagna or steak or this or that. I go, I'm getting flowers and she's okay. And I said, I'll text you later. And then that was our text exchange. But he had passed about 12 days before my mom, so we were already in grief, we were already in sadness. And I was very close to my father in law. I loved him so much. Just beautiful Greek American, just gorgeous, kind, funny, solid man. And it was. I felt the hole in my heart when he passed away because it was sudden, it wasn't tragic. Thank God, you know, he was in his 80s. Thank God, you know, he took a shower, he had a good dinner, he put on his pajamas, he went to sleep and he never woke up. And. But does it mean that it's not hard? Because of course, you know, we hadn't talked to him and it's still shocking. And so I wasn't able to travel. My mom died on a Wednesday. We were burying the memorial for my father in law was that weekend and I had just moved my father and I said, ted, I can't even be with you. I can't. But I called our daughter Sarah, and I said, sarah, you're going to have to step it up for me. You have to step it up. And she was so fantastic. She's like, what do you need? I said, just be me. Just do whatever I do. Just get there and handle everything, because I've got to be here with Clarence. And by the way, I was in an investigation. I mean, it was. The police were at my house all the time. It's a whole thing. So I was in that mode. But again, you know, with life, you don't know. And you hope to be as sane and grounded as possible when these things do happen, even if it's a death that is calm and peaceful and a transition that was coming anyway, it's still work. I always tell people. And then there is the business of death. Right. There's a whole planning this, that It's a lot.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

It's a lot.

[Nicole Avant]

And it takes a toll on you, as you know.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes. Yeah. You know, Ted writes in the foreword in the forward, I think you'll be happy that when you all started having dinner with your dad every night, he used that same word. He said, it's like a masterclass every day. How was that for your relationship with your dad? And can you tell us a little about him? And I want to hear about, I want to hear about his, your dad's book title idea.

[Nicole Avant]

Oh, God. Can I say that on your show?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You sure can.

[Nicole Avant]

Oh, gosh. Well, my dad, to say the least, was a character. I mean, he was, I mean, like a man of faith that can drop an F bomb every two seconds, which he did.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Nicole Avant]

But he was very determined and very purposeful. And Clarence Savant was born in 1931 in the backcountry woods of North Carolina. And at the worst time, one of the worst times in our history. So no rights and deep, very, very heavy segregation where he was, and Jim Crow laws and the Ku Klux Klan, you know, rampant at that time. And my dad would say to me, I said, you know, he was picking cotton at 5, tobacco by 7, working 60 hours, just working as a child. You know, that's what they did. He said, that's what he did. There was no choices about anything. And I said, why were you, how did you, how did you end up not being so angry? And not. He said, you know what? Doesn't mean I wasn't angry. I just don't focus on it. I just, I, I, I, I knew I was alive I didn't know how long I had and I was going to make the best out of whatever I had. I was just going to make the best out of it. Whatever it was, I was going to make the best out of it. So if I had only ended up, you know, because he was everything. He was a busboy, he was this, he was a janitor. He goes, if I ended up a janitor, I was going to be the best damn janitor the anybody had ever met in their lives, period. And so he always had that attitude. And then he became very successful at one thing after another, always in the right place at the right time, became very successful in the music industry. And music is what brought us back together. Because music has actually saved my life many, many times. I mean, when I've been, when I've been at my lowest, different points in my life for various reasons, music gets me out of a strange mood, a sad mood. Music makes me think, it makes me feel a different way. I get very emotional when I listen to certain types of music, which is good because it lets it all out.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

This conversation with Ambassador Avant is so powerful. We made it into more than one part. If you're ready to raise your vibration, ignite your courage, solidify your faith, and turn your dreams into your destiny, just wait until you hear part two of this conversation. I have to say, it's one of my all time favorite conversations I've ever had on the podcast and it's coming up in the next episode of the Jamie Kerr and Lima Show. Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person that you know because it can change their life too. And if you love today's episode, please click the Follow or subscribe button for the show on the app and give it a five star review rating. And again, just share it with everyone that you believe in. Share it with another person whose life it could benefit. Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today. Before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Here I hope you'll come as you are, heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy, you are loved, you are love and I love you and I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for [e-mail] or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you flip Fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you if you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. [e-mail] or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.