B (3:57)

Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

A (4:01)

Oprah, how have you defied the odds?

B (4:04)

Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation.

A (4:09)

When you listen, it feels like a hug. But your brain and your spirit and your heart is like wow. Melinda French Gates. When I look into Jamie's eyes, I.

B (4:20)

Feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her.

A (4:24)

I could see the light around her. She's infused with light. Imagine overcoming self doubt, learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

B (4:39)

Jamie Kern Lima is her name.

A (4:41)

Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life.

B (4:43)

Jamie Kern Lima.

A (4:48)

Jamie, you're so inspiring.

B (4:50)

Jamie Kern Lima.

A (4:54)

I am so excited for this conversation. Chris Appleton, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

B (4:59)

Thank you for having me.

A (5:01)

So excited you're here.

B (5:02)

So excited. I was so looking forward to doing this.

A (5:04)

I don't know if I've ever talked so much with someone before.

B (5:07)

We've done a whole podcast on the.

A (5:09)

Way and we've done a whole podcast before the show and I love that we are in our bright colors today.

B (5:15)

I know. Bringing a little bit of brightness to sunny la. Although it wasn't sunny yesterday, it's been the rain. Honestly, it takes me back to my London days.

A (5:24)

Oh yeah, I know. Which is unusual for California. But I love green's actually my favorite color on the planet.

B (5:29)

Wow.

A (5:29)

So watching bright green.

B (5:30)

Yeah. And.

A (5:31)

And today I was channeling. You have so many clients, but these pink pants are good. American. Khloe Kardashian. I was like, okay, perfect for our interview. I've actually never met Chloe, but I love. Is she.

B (5:43)

Yeah, in my head.

A (5:44)

In your head.

B (5:45)

I love her. She's the sweetest.

A (5:47)

Well, you know, one thing we were just talking about right before cameras started rolling is we were talking about when we were little kids, you and I. And I was saying, you know, I was sitting in my living room watching Oprah on TV and just having this whisper. Like, one day I'm going to meet her. Which made no sense to anyone. I was like, in the middle of Washington state. Didn't know nobody, knew nobody. But I just had, like, that whisper. And you were saying when you were a little kid growing up, you had this kind of. And I want to ask you this question off the top for anybody listening right now who maybe feels like they have a whisper or a knowing that maybe where they're at right now isn't where they're going. Isn't where they're going or isn't it? Can you share about that kind of feeling or that whisper you had as a little boy that said, I think my future is gonna be different than where I'm at right now?

B (6:33)

Totally. I mean, it's actually. It's come up a lot in therapy. That's when this sort of situation. I had some hard times in my life. I've always believed in therapy. I like doing therapy. I think it's a healthy thing to do, you know, to be a better version of yourself. But I remember there was a particular situation where my therapist, John, who's a great guy, he was saying, you know, I wanna go back. I wanna go back to some sort of memory. And I had this distinct memory. I was only 6 years old, and I've one of five kids, so big family, middle England and very working class. And my parents also had a lot of trauma from a young age, which they carried. And I've realized that in later life, that trauma gets passed on and you know how to kind of break those. But at the time, I didn't. So life, to me, just seemed what it was, which was pretty. I describe it as gray. You know, it's not very sunny in the uk. It was always kind of rainy, and life felt hard. We were really poor, you know, we. I remember feeling hungry as a kid all the time. We didn't have food in the cupboards. My parents did the best they could, but I remember this distinct memory where I was looking outside the window, and I just remember in my stomach feeling like there was more to life and that I'd have a different experience in life. Whereas, you know, it was expected that you, you know, got married, had kids, settled down, work hard, you know, know nine till five. I always felt very different to that. And this actually came up in my therapy session because it was about, like, kind of connecting back to that child. And I remember initially I was thinking, oh my God, this is so ridiculous. I was like, my God, this is. This is crazy. But guys, this is real work. Like, this is kind of brutal work, but it's the best work I've ever done where you actually return back to your younger self. And in doing that, I remember I was literally in hysterics, crying. I was sobbing. I was like, what did you do? I don't even know what you did. But coming back to yourself and like, reconnecting to yourself is one of the most powerful things you can ever do. And it honestly changed my whole life. And the really sad part about it is, is that I realized in that moment that I had actually abandoned myself for so many years, adult years of my life, because I was ashamed of, you know, who I was. Not blending in, not being, you know, what everyone says is normal, being different, you know, whatever that meant with my dyslexia. Cause at school I didn't really learn like everyone else. I was very articulate, but I wasn't very good on paper and sort of writing things down from the board. So I was told I was stupid. You carry that. So I felt from a young age I was stupid. And then also sort of sexuality wise. Well, I got a job in a hair salon at the age of 13. I did my mom's hair at the age of nine. It was the first time I felt good at anything. So we used to, used to watch TV and see these glamorous stars. And it's funny that I work with them now, but at the time I used to think like, wow, they look like they've got it all together. My mom, who was, you know, very working class and, you know, didn't have much glamour in her life. I wanted to do her hair and make her look like a Hollywood star. So she'd stand up and look in the mirror after. And I saw this reaction and it was a physical reaction. You know, she would sit up, her shoulders would go back, and she didn't recognize what was reflecting in the mirror. She was used to seeing this version of herself that life had told her she was. So when she had this kind of glamorous up to, she kind of changed the way she stood. And I remember thinking, wow, this is like my superpower. I'm going to do this. This is something I'm good at, and I'm going to be the best at it. So I think because I had a job at a young age, at the age of 13, in a salon, again, it wasn't normal. So the kids at school would be like, well, you do hair. What? Why? Why that you guys don't do hair, so you're gay. So I very quickly got labeled as gay and, you know, stupid. And I was just sort of determined to prove everyone wrong. But in doing that, that's the moment that I actually left myself. You know, that's actually when I abandoned who I truly was or any discovery of that, because I was at an age where I hadn't really figured out who I was. But I think what the reader will find in this book is so many people have those moments in childhood where they are told they're the quiet one, you're the shy one, you're the, you know, you're. You're the pretty one, or you're the. You're the serious one. And we carry these, whatever it is. I mean, obviously there's a lot of worse situations, but we carry this for our whole lives without even realizing. And in the book, what it's going to enable people to do is actually really stop and see themselves. Because we're looking the mirror every day, you know, several times a day, and we just. We see that person staring back and brushing her teeth or doing a hair, whatever we're doing. Not many people actually stop, look in the mirror and really, truly look at themselves and take it all in and actually see if they're aligned with this kind of visual representation internally and externally. You know, a lot of people aren't. They aren't connected. They don't really know how they got there. They don't know why they have the haircut they have. They don't know why they have the style they have. And it's kind of like they were told, you know, as a kid, like, oh, you have bangs, you need bangs. You've got a big forehead. Or, you know, you can't be blonde because you, you know, your sister's a blonde, you're a brunette. That's in a visual sense. But we're also told things like, you know, you're the quiet one, you're the. You're the stupid one, your sister's the clever one. And these are all things that we just carry. And. And in the book, people will find a way to really, truly see a new version of themselves, to understand that reinvention is possible at any age.

A (12:01)

Yes.

B (12:02)

And you can make your comeback.

A (12:04)

Yes. So, so in Chris's new book, your Roots don't define you. I've read it cover to cover and the book is so great because a, it shares a lot of your story in ways that I think everyone reading can relate to and almost see themselves. Right. Maybe different circumstances, maybe different experiences, but parts that we can all connect with. And then also there's a lot of takeaways I shared with you. When we were walking over here, there were moments where I'm like, oh, this is why. One of the many reasons why Chris is on the show. I'm like, I need, I needed to, I needed this when I read your book, I was like, I needed this right now. And though when I, whenever I feel moments like that, I get so excited because, you know, everyone's time is so precious if they're going to pick up a book. I want to make sure that like they leave that book going, wow, I'm so glad that I read this. Like, I feel more of who I am and I love to, you know, people's, I think Persona of you if they've only seen you on Instagram might be that or on social media and all the channels, maybe that your life is perfect and you never feel self doubt and that you're, you know, and you are around the most famous people in the world, all of the most glamorous people. So what I love about your book and what I love about how vulnerable you are and how real and raw you are is that I think that it gives you everybody insight into, oh, wow. It's not that I'm not enough to do my own dreams. It's that we all share this commonality of the same doubts and insecurities and we have different journeys on how do we, you know, redefine ourselves or how do we make our own comeback? And one question I want to ask you is most people watching right now or listening are going to go, oh yeah, Chris Appleton. Or maybe they've seen you with all of the biggest stars in the world. Have you ever worked with a celebrity ever that does not have self doubt or unworthiness or insecurities?

B (14:12)

No. Yeah, absolutely not. And it's funny because I think people think that like celebrities are superheroes and they're not real people.

A (14:21)

Right.

B (14:21)

You know, but they are. The difference is, and this is something I've learned over time is we all have Those doubts and insecurities, but in part of healing and knowing who you truly are, you still have them and you still get triggered. But you learn ways to be able to come back to yourself and you recognize you're like, I'm just doing that thing, and you can re center yourself and be back in your, like, adult body. So a lot of it is just reverting back to old stories and memories and things we've been told. But again, in the book, that's what you'll find from experience, like personally from working with celebrities, from working with women in the salon or a model on the Runway, or a cancer patient that lost their hair, ways to be able to come back to yourself and know who you truly are and be, you know, happy with that. And like I say, live an authentic real life that you truly are happy. In so much of my life, I was not really aligned. I think probably on the outside I looked aligned visually, but on the inside, absolutely not. And I think when you don't have that alignment, so many things in your life are just off. And I, I think I've honestly got to a place in my life through a lot of pain and a lot of insecurity and self doubt and fear where I truly am at peace with myself. And I think that reflected in the relationships I got into it, reflected into my financial decisions, family, even friend groups. But all of those things made a difference to my everyday choices. And I never wanted to be alone. I couldn't be alone, because being alone was the one time that I faced myself. And I made a career out of making everyone look in the mirror and truly see themselves. And that was so powerful. I remember doing it in the salon when I was, you know, 15 years old and doing it with Kim Kardashian or Jennifer Lopez, where you truly get to see someone, get them to see the best in themselves and bring that out. And it's really powerful. And it's not just visual change. It's a, you know, inside. It's an internal change where you hold yourself the way you stand. The one thing I never did was look in the mirror myself. I never truly stopped and looked because I was so afraid to do that. I was so ashamed to do that because of past experiences led me to abandon that person. It was easier to do it for other people. So I made a really great career out of it. But I think personally I was actually really unhappy. So, you know, this is the, the one time in my life that I really come kind of full circle in healing. And the book was really powerful to help me do that. It really helped me face a lot of those old pasts and moments that I felt ashamed of. And I mentioned to you on the way over, this book actually wasn't the book that I originally wrote.

A (17:02)

Yeah.

B (17:03)

I wrote a very different version. A version that maybe people expected, you know, the polished Hollywood version. And I just remember sitting there and I was like, this isn't real. This isn't also who I am anymore. This isn't. I have found alignment. And what I really want to do, and I think what I feel passionate about is helping others, and I wanted to show other people. All right, well, you don't look like Kim or Ariana or JLo, but this is how. Because it really is so easy when you know how. And it starts by looking in the mirror and stopping and actually truly looking. And that's probably one of the hardest things people can do.

A (17:40)

It's so. Yes. And everyone listening right now. Like, I just want you to just think about this for a moment. When's the last time you actually just looked at yourself in the mirror? Like, looked in your own eyes even?

B (17:51)

Yeah.

A (17:51)

And just actually, like, without distractions, without whatever. Without seeing something you think is wrong or. Da. Da. Just actually, like, really see yourself. Okay, you just said something I think is so powerful. You said many things. Powerful. But one thing you just said, because a lot of us think, like, oh, one day when I get that thing, then I'll be happy. One day when I sell my company for, you know, a billion dollars, then I'll be happy one day, you know, and you have, you know, I can only imagine. And I love that you actually share insights in the book. Your roots don't define you. Out now. Everyone go grab your copy. It's so good you share, you know, all of your journey of getting those big clients. But you just said something, even though you were doing everything that looked incredible on the outside. Right. That. When was it? Because we're gonna dive deep into some of the things that you share in your book. But for you, Chris, when was it? How many years months ago would you say it was that you actually feel like you are completely in alignment with the person you're born to be and fulfilled, and you feel good.

B (19:00)

I think, being honest, maybe two years ago, after I went for a very public divorce, I think I really wanted to change the situation that I kept finding myself into. And I found myself wanting to sort of, you know, always help people, always try and, you know, look for the best, whether it was a friendship or A relationship or just generally people in my life, I was always trying to sort of help fix, like, I can love is enough. You know, we can make things work and never really sort of truly being comfortable, comfortable, like I say, with being on my own.

A (19:35)

And.

B (19:35)

And I realized that, I think, really coming back to yourself and being able to, you know, I say, love myself. I didn't really like that phase phrase because I felt like loving yourself felt somewhat indulgent and kind of like maybe a bit hippie dippy. I don't know. It felt to me a little bit kind of cheesy. But to be honest with you, I didn't love myself. Like I said, it wasn't aligned on the outside, and on the inside, it didn't match. So I really wanted to change things. I wanted to change the, you know, past things I'd learned about, you know, the type of people that I'd be friends with or in relationship with. I wanted to break that pattern. So it was a time of really getting to my lowest point.

A (20:18)

Yeah.

B (20:19)

Where I was like, I want to make a change. And again, this book is for anyone that feels like there's more. Like, is this it? Anyone that looks in the mirror and thinks, is, is this it? Yeah, something doesn't feel right. I felt like I was meant to do more. Whether it's your marriage, whether it's your relationship with, you know, friends or finances or, you know, just literally the way you look. It could even be with the hairstyle that you, you know, why have I still got this hairstyle? You know, anyone that's ever questioned themselves, this book is going to plant a seed that once it's planted, you can't unseed, and it's gonna grow. And change doesn't happen overnight.

A (20:56)

Yeah.

B (20:57)

It took me years to figure it out. And it can be brutal because you have to look at yourself. And that's sometimes, like I say, the hardest thing to truly do. It's easy to look at other people, judge other people, make a pin, you know, but to actually sit and look at yourself, that's tough. But in doing it, you'll never unsee it. It doesn't go. You want to get to a better place, you know, And I think that's really powerful.

A (21:17)

And you're more, you know, there's more. Can be just like, I want to feel fulfilled or I want to feel joy. I want alignment. Because you had everything that the world celebrates. You had, like, everything that people strive for their whole career. You had everything. And you also had everything on the outside. That looked like you had everything, yet you felt a little different on the inside. Like oh this like like not happy, not not fully fulfilled, not fully in alignment. And then sharing that really just two years ago, getting to that point place and going through that painful moment that you just mentioned and then getting to this place of alignment. And I think that what's so beautiful is we need to pause for a super brief break and while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today, to keep going, to remember that they matter, and to feel less alone and more enough more connected, more inspired, inspired and more worthy. In life you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you, it's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecarnlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show Notes do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your Life. It's called 5 Ways to Overcome Negative Self Talk and Build Self Love and it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life, one filled with self love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to Stop overthinking and learn to Trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together. I think that what's so beautiful is is when we use all the things that we've gone through and then we've made it through them, then help others make it through those things and get to that point. And what I love about your book is it's so much more than just a biography. Although biography is enough. An autobiography is enough. You, you share so many beautiful things about your story, but you give us tools, you give us tips, you give us concrete things on you know you shared earlier every person you've ever worked with. You've never worked with someone who doesn't have self doubt or insecurity or feel unworthy. And it's like okay, well what do they do to go from that feeling back to the truth? Which is right like who they are and and and kind of their the power that's in them and that high vibration. We've all felt that high vi and our eyes sparkle and we're feel like we're floating and we're unstoppable and that's a Very different feeling than when our mind tells us the lies about how we're not enough and all of that. It's like, okay, well, how do you go from that to the other? And I love in your book that you share tools about that. So one of the things is you talk about our inner hater, our inner critic.

B (27:26)

And isn't it funny how that voice is so loud?

A (27:30)

Why is it so loud?

B (27:31)

Why is it so right?

A (27:34)

And everyone listening to Chris and I right now, if you're watching this, think about that voice has a hater.

B (27:39)

And what does it say?

A (27:41)

Yes. What does it say? Right.

B (27:43)

Tell you what mine says if you tell me what yours is.

A (27:45)

Yes.

B (27:45)

Do you know what usually happens? Who tell you when it happens the most?

A (27:48)

When?

B (27:49)

Because I said to you, I keep going on about looking in the mirror. When you sit in a stylist chair. You go to the salon, you sit in the chair, you sit down, you look in the mirror, and most people start to be like, this. Is this the lighting bad in here? Look old. God, Christmas really did a number on me. This one eye is smaller than the other eye. And geez, if I put weight on my gray hat, it just goes savage. Not many people sit down and go, wow, I look fabulous.

A (28:15)

I look good.

B (28:16)

Damn, I look good. I better get up and leave. They're just like, oh, my God, why is my hair thinning? You know, we just rip ourselves apart. Like, you know, you can see people in the. In the chair looking at. Because the mirror is just there. And you can't really, but you just end up looking. And, you know, you're usually waiting for your stylist to come up. That's why they say the stylist chair is like a therapist chair. It truly is. Because it's the one time that you actually stop and really look at yourself. Most people go, ham with that hater inside. It's loud and it's clear. This book is going to not stop that voice, and I want to be clear about that. But what it is going to do is if the volume is at a 10, it's going to take it down to a 2, and you're going to be able to come back to yourself and be like, I'm doing that thing I do. I know that's old things, old traumas, old beliefs, and you can come back to your adult self. You know, you can come back to yourself and be like, actually, those smile lines, you know, show that I've had a happy life, you know, and I'm fulfilled. You know, you start to put a positive spin on things rather than always going to the negative. And if you do it often enough, it changes a lot.

A (29:13)

You talk about with our inner hater, our inner critic, that we can fact check it. Like, you talk about three things that your personal hater says and how you fact check it. So will you share how you do that in your life and how the person listening and at home can do that when they're. That inner critic starts to get loud and say, oh, you're not enough. You don't have what it takes. You're too young, you're too old, you're not smart enough. On and on and on and on.

B (29:39)

Absolutely. I mean, it's literally never. The voices are always going to be there. You know, it just is part of life. It's part of our story. And it's not about deleting your past. It's not about pretending it didn't happen. Because I think for a long time that's what I did. It doesn't actually ever leave you. I think, you know, it's all part of you, but you just get to recognize that those triggers are just old triggers. And you learn techniques to be able to come back to yourself. Like these smile lines. I hate these smile lines. I'm like, they drive me mad. I hate these, like, lines that are always there. But in actual fact, when I think about actually shows that I smile a lot and I laugh a lot more than, you know, maybe people see. And I love that about myself. I think laughter is one of the, the best forms of medication or, you know, that you can actually have releases, endorphins. It makes you feel great. And I'm so happy to be able to carry that in my life. It's small things like that that you can just change the narrative. Like, God, I look old and I don't want to, you know, smile or ever show a happy face. In actual fact, I'm happy. I smile and that's nice that they're there. It doesn't mean that you need to necessarily change it. It just means that you can, you know, reassure yourself and come back to, you know, what the truth is, rather going go into sabotage mode and completely ripping yourself apart. And trust me, that voice can be brutal. And you probably speak to yourself way harsher than anyone else has ever spoke to in your life. Yes, I have a little, a little, a little secret though, something I do. It's quite personal, but I actually go back to that little boy at the age of six when he was sitting at the window because in that moment when I felt different and I felt not sure, I was so afraid of that feeling because it wasn't welcomed, that I went on autopilot and I started to become everything that people told me to be, you know, straight, even though I hadn't delved into sexuality. But like, you know, I like girls, you know, stupid. Well, I'll fake it till I make it, you know, I just got really far away from who I truly was or even allowing myself to develop. What I really needed in that time was someone just to say to me, you know, you're enough. And I think a lot of people need to hear that. A lot of people just want to hear that they're enough and they're doing a great job. I never heard that I was. It wasn't any, you know, I didn't have bad parents. It's just always one of five kids and life was hard. They were trying to provide for us. A lot's changed over that time. And I think in those moments of insecurity, I go back to that little boy and the adult me will just. I'll hear those words, you're enough. And in that time, it's so self soothing. Anyone laughing, watching this, I'm telling you, that was really real. If you actually come back to yourself and you go back to that young memory and you can just reassure yourself you don't need the outside validation, you can come back to yourself. That's really what got my feet back on the ground. It puts me back in my adult body. My feet are on the ground. I can feel my hands on this sofa. And I'm here, you know, it just stops me floating away into wonderland of negativity. And sometimes that's all we needed to hear, was that we're enough, you know, and we're doing a great job.

A (32:49)

You're doing a great job.

B (32:49)

And in actual fact, what makes you different now will be your superpower when you're older. Just trust me. You know, that would have made the whole difference. But I never heard that. And unfortunately, I abandoned most of my adult life being someone that I was told to be, someone that society said I should be. A lot of people do that. A lot of people go into, you know, jobs because their parents told them that's what they should do. Or, you know, like I say, relationships and marriages or even just the hairstyle you choose. A lot of people don't even know. I used to have clients that would come in the salon and I'd sit them down and I'd say, You know, so tell me about you. Tell me about your hair. Well, okay, well, I'll tell you. You know, and I've always wanted to be blonde. And, you know, I have this aspiration. And I said, well, why don't we kind of go light and, oh, no, no, I know I can't go blonde. I can't go blonde. And I was like, well, why not? And they were like, what? I can't. You know, And I said, who told you that? And they're like, well, I know. I just know I can't, you know, and it was probably from years ago. Someone once said something to them they've carried their whole lives. And when you start to break these things down, I saw it happen, you know, with these clients when I worked in the salon. And you break down these boundaries and these walls that they've put up. And it's so empower. It's so empowering, you know, when women would come in and they would just be there for hours, and they were so loyal. And then, you know, I realized when I did that with cancer patients, women that lost their hair, strong, confident women would come in and they were like rabbits in headlights because they'd lost their identity that got taken away from them with their hair. You know, it was telling the world they were ill. And they would say to me, they would rather lose their breasts than their hair. And that was really powerful to. To me. So I'd work on wigs and, you know, give them these, These. This look that they felt like they could go out and they felt like they could face cancer. You know, they felt like they could be strong. They felt like they could take it head on. People really take for granted how much your identity and your outside says about you, you know, and the book goes in great detail about alignment on the inside, but also a lot of women that say to me like, I don't care. I don't care about my hair. I don't care about the way I look. You know, my hair's just my hair. And I'm like, We were also saying something with that, though. You know, you're also saying that you don't care. You know, you're also putting that out to people and, you know, that's the message you want to portray, then that's great. But there is just small ways that you can just make sure that you're truly, you know, aligned internally with your intentions and what you want out of life and how you present yourself. So, you know, it touches both bases, but it's a lot Less about external and a lot more about internal, because that's where a lot of the work really, you know, makes a difference. It really is the magic part.

A (35:27)

Talk about the impact of saying I'm fine.

B (35:30)

Oh, my God, I hate that word so much. Jamie. If someone says I'm fine, I'm like, let's talk, come on. Because it's such a facade. The four letter word is. It might as well be called fake. It's just. It's not real to me. If someone says to me, if I'm dressed and I say, what do you think? And they're like, you're fine. I'm like, oh, I better go change. Fine is just this middle of the ground kind of facade that we put up, which, you know, I guess at times is appropriate, but, you know, your grandma might have died. How are you doing? I'm fine. And it's just really not kind of a true reflection of who we are or where we're at. So I think if for me, the word fine is just an unsafe way of putting out to the world that, you know, it's a fake facade. And I think a lot of my life I've pretended to be fine. You know, I think I've wore that my whole life. And in actual fact, now I'm so much more, you know, in tune to who I am. So it's not about going into great detail. I don't need to tell you, you know, I've had a terrible morning. But you can just be more realistic about where you're at in your life and be more present with who you are rather than this fine. It's. It. It's just such a. It's a facade to me. And I think because I spent so much of my life in a facade space, you know, and I felt how unhealthy that was, right to not be aligned. That word for me is kind of bad.

A (36:56)

Now, I think too, when we're sort of like numbing our way through life or doing all that, we just like find kind of our default, right? In your book, you go into the word fine a lot. And I think, yeah, and I think a lot of people are going to have aha moments when they read that part of your book. Because I think if, if. If we sort of like do some self reflection and go, okay, do I describe my current job as fine? Do I describe my current.

B (37:23)

It's just a settle, you know?

A (37:24)

Yeah, it's all right.

B (37:25)

Yeah, don't make a. Don't worry, but don't look at me. It's like, that's what it's like. Don't look, don't look at me. I don't. I'm fine.

A (37:32)

It's just.

B (37:32)

I'm fine. It's, it's just not. I just want to get a mirror and hold it up to the person and say, let's talk about it. You know, let's, let's, let's break it down. Let's get in touch with the way we feel. You gotta feel, you know, and so many people avoid feeling, and it just gets you to a bad place in your life. You know, you, life happens and, you know, it's great to be able to use techniques and tools to be able to deal with that.

A (37:55)

Yes. Versus feel versus finding them and feel nothing.

B (37:58)

Band aid.

A (37:59)

Yes.

B (38:00)

Just not real.

A (38:00)

Yes.

B (38:01)

Let's treat the problem. Let's. Let's deal with it.

A (38:03)

Talk about the power of envy.

B (38:05)

Oh, I mean, it's something we all have.

A (38:09)

Yeah.

B (38:09)

I have to be honest, I've had it a lot in my life. I think envy is, when used wrong, it can be really dark and jealousy can be really consuming and in actual fact have a very negative effect on you. Making you feel less than making you feel not good enough make you feel bitter. I mean, I think we see a lot of that online in people's. I mean, sometimes I read these comments and I'm like, oh my God, what, what, what was. I mean, I read something about someone the other day, a client, and I was like, oh my God, it was awful what they wrote. And I was like, geez, how sad is that person to say? Because it was so. It was something about they wish this person had cancer. So it was really awful. And I was like, wow, that person must be very unhappy to wish something like that on someone else. And I think envy can be a real poison and a real dark thing, But I think when used in the right realm, it can be very powerful. So I think for me, I, you know, learned to change envy into really kind of getting inquisitive about what I was envious about. What is it that. What is it? What is it about what they have that I would love to be a part of or that I aspire to? And I would actually use it then as an inspiration and a motivation to be able to work towards something that, you know, I really wanted to.

A (39:30)

Right.

B (39:31)

And for example, with the book, I've. I've seen people bring out books before and you felt envious, like, oh, God, now they're bringing out a book. Now they're doing this, whereas in actual fact, I was looking at like, well, how did they bring out a book? How did they go from doing what they were doing, you know, doing makeup and now they're bringing out a book. How did they. How did it become a New York Times bestseller? How did they get this accolade? And I would look at those steps they made, and no one gets a shortcut in life. It's a lot of work. But what I really wanted to do is actually look at how that work, you know, happened and how they went about it and use it as a motivation. And I think when used well, envy can be an incredible useful tool in your life. And I think it's just being able to put that positive spin on it and instead of taking it as a negative, actually using it as a positive and going towards it, going towards envy and actually embracing it and embracing the person. And then I think in that it gives you gratitude because it makes you feel sort of grateful for, you know, where you're at in your life and also where they're at in their life. And I think it kind of just evens the ground rather than feeling this, you know, kind of scale of less than and more than and stuff.

A (40:37)

Right.

B (40:37)

It really, it senses you. It's very powerful.

A (40:39)

Yeah. And so if, you know, you feel envy instead of going, oh, I feel awful, or I'm not enough. I don't have what that person has, or I. Whatever you're like, oh, actually that's an indicator of something I want. So now let me figure out how to get it.

B (40:51)

You could say I'm envious of, like, some of the people I work with. I mean, Kim is an incredible. I mean, she has like.

A (40:57)

We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going, to remember that they matter, and to feel less alone and more enough, more connected, more inspired, inspired, and more worthy. Who you spend time around is so important, as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show Notes I am so excited for this book.

B (42:21)

You know why? Because it's going to save so many people. It's going to save people.

A (42:28)

Were the your new beautiful book Worthy? Get this book.

B (42:33)

This book. I'm telling you. It's a book that can change anybody's life who picks it up. Anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough didn't measure up. Something's missing in your life. I have to tell you. It's powerful. It's happening. It's worthy.

A (42:50)

Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you. I went from struggling waitress facing non stop rejection to founder of IT Cosmetics, a billion dollar company by learning how to overcome self doubt and believe I am worthy of my hopes and dreams. And I'm sharing how you can too in my new book how to believe you are enough and transform your life. If you're ready to truly trust yourself and break through that barrier of self doubt and know that where you come from or even where you are right now doesn't determine determine where you're going, then Worthy is for you. It's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough. It's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be. And it's time to believe that you are worthy of it. Because in life we don't become what we want, we become what we believe we're worthy of. Join the Worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of Worthy Anywhere books are sold. Then head to worthybook.com now for free gifts including my five part course on becoming unstoppable and my 95 page worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the book into your real life. Right now.

B (44:19)

Worthy is groundbreaking.

A (44:21)

Yo Worthy.

B (44:23)

You are Worthy. This book is gonna change lives.

A (44:26)

This book literally will teach you how to actually feel worthy so that you can have the strength, you can have the confidence.

B (44:32)

The lessons in this book and the strategies will change your life. You will never be the same again after you read this book.

A (44:38)

Jamie's book Worthy is a must read. It is going to inspire you empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve. Jamie's book, Worthy, is incredible. The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com and now more of this incredible conversation together.

B (45:03)

You could say I'm envious of, like, some of the people I work with. I mean, Kim is an incredible. I mean, she has, like, skims. She did the reality show initially, and then she, you know, went into the skims, becoming a lawyer. I also see her as an amazing mom. She now is acting, and she's an incredible person. I've never felt envy, though. I've only ever felt, wow, how does she do it? I'm gonna watch.

A (45:29)

Yeah.

B (45:29)

You know, I watch how she does it and how she copes it and how she navigates all these situations. And she's such an inspiration to me. So empowering to me. But that goes right back to when I used to work at Fashion Week, and I, you know, saw the head stylist, and I was there passing pins, you know, just really not doing much. But I would look and I'd be like, how is that person, the top person? How did they walk? How did they talk? How did they talk to the models? How do they coordinate the team? What is it about them that makes them special? What about. What is it about them that makes them stand out? And I'll just be a sponge, and I would just absorb that information, and I think, you know, looking at envy, if you. If you challenge it in the right way, it can be very powerful and very motivating.

A (46:10)

Success leaves clues, and I love Chris Appleton, that you are sharing so much of who you are and why you are the way you are, and even just what you just shared just now, how, when you're back at Fashion Week handing out pins, you're actually intrigued by why is that person the top person? Or you're working with Kim and you're like, wow, she's doing all of these things.

B (46:30)

Yeah.

A (46:31)

And I think this is really. I think this is, you know, it's. It's almost never an accident. Almost never an accident when someone's really successful. When you think about your story and your upbringing that you share in, your roots don't define you, and sharing how the circumstances you were in and the environment that you were in and the pros and the cons and all that, but the odds of you being where you're at right now, the odds of you accomplishing the dreams that you've had, the odds of you building enough sophistication to have every, just about every celebrity in the world want to work with you and trust you. The odds of any of that happening are one in a zillion. Right. And so, and so for anybody watching or listening, one of my favorite things in the world to do, like you just talked about handing out pins and going, why is that person the top person? When I was reading your book, your Roots Don't Define youe. And now the blessing of having this conversation with you, it's, it's. Every person can get so much out of it in their own life by going, huh? How did Chris Appleton go from this little six year old boy staring out a window, having these different kind of whispers to then going through all the same types of struggles we all go through, which is like, who am I? And, and, and how do I live in alignment with that? And what about these hard times and what about these feelings of not being enough? And I don't want to be alone. A lot of people don't want to be alone. Right.

B (48:05)

And what's the being alone thing is so powerful.

A (48:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (48:09)

I have not wanted to be alone my whole life and I've got myself into so many terrible situations because of it.

A (48:14)

Yeah.

B (48:14)

I've been alone now for, you know, the longest time in my life and it's been the happiest because I'm truly content with it. I'm fine. I like it. I like me. I didn't like me for so long.

A (48:25)

I love that you talk about that. And again, because we're in such a different world even now than we were five years ago and it is so easy for everyone to, you know, you have millions and millions and millions and millions of followers on all your social channels and it's easy for them to go on there and go, oh my gosh, you know, and maybe they feel alone in their own feelings of not enoughness, or maybe they don't love themselves. And for you to share that journey and to say that you didn't love yourself and now that you do, and I think that what so many of us don't realize is we can. Only, we can. Whether you think of the relationships in your life, your friendships, your romantic relationships, like when you look at all the data behind it, we can only love someone else to the extent of the depth that we truly love ourselves. And until we get that, it's like, oh, wow, it's kind of what you said earlier. A lot of us think like, oh, self love is a cliche or it's flippant or whatever, but it's like, oh, no, no, that's actually where it's at, really learning that you are enough and loving yourself. And then it's like, oh my gosh, like for me, I'm such a better parent now having gone on that journey. I'm such a better partner, I'm such a better friend. It just changes every aspect of your life. And for you. You say your roots are showing whether you want them to or not, but you are not talking about hair.

B (49:54)

No, no, I'm just talking really about who you are. You put it out there every day to the world. And even if you don't think you're making a statement with your appearance, you are, because not making a statement is making a statement. And you know, let's face it, people take think of anyone, think of Marilyn Monroe. What do you think? You think blond hair, you know, bombshell, you know, you think of, I don't know, Kim Kardashian, brunette, you know, rich hair and you know, kind of, you know, reality. Then went into a businesswoman, entrepreneur. All the things JLo. You think of the sun kissed hair and pops of color. Chapel, you know, she has the red, fiery red hair. Most people have an identity. Anna Wintour, you know, editor of Vogue, you know, the Bob. Everyone just talks about the Bob. Your identity is so powerful and it says so much about you even if you're not trying to. And I think what people will find in the book is be able to really find an alignment with that outside identity and bring out not only the best version of themselves, but one that truly aligns with their inside and truly is who they are. Not a version of themselves they were told to be. And you know, I've said before, I think a lot of my life, I was living a life that I was told to be. Might have looked like I had it together on the inside side, but I really didn't. And it was a really sad place to be. I couldn't be alone, I couldn't be on my own. And, and it was very, it was a very sad time in my life. And I think people underestimate the power of our identity. And you know, like I said, I saw it the most when I worked with cancer patients that lost their hair because these really strong women, like really confident women would come in and they would, they were like hazy. They, they couldn't see. They kept looking in the mirror and they couldn't see what was going back, you know, what was reflected back. They couldn't absorb It. They couldn't see that person without the eyebrows, without the hair. They were like, I. I don't know who I am. I don't know. I look like this ill person. And they kept getting reminded that every time they look in the mirror. Now, I work with wigs with celebrities and stuff, you know, as a, you know, fun part of my job to create different looks. But back then, it was about giving someone their identity. And, you know, I'd work on these wigs and personalize them. And because back then, they were. They weren't like they are now. They were very superficial, and people didn't really want to wear them because it also looked like they were wearing a wig. So I'd make them more natural. And I remember doing these wigs and giving them. It was like emotional medicine. It was like, you know, people go for chemotherapy. This was like an emotional, you know, IV of confidence, of strength of being able to mentally come back to themselves rather than floating away from themselves. You know, when this thing is taken over their body and they're not in control, it. It brought them back to themselves. And I think that's really powerful. And I think, you know, there's a lot of strength in being able to be mentally strong during such a difficult time like that. So I saw how powerful that was doing it with cancer patients. And, you know, so for when people just say, well, I don't really care about the way I look, I think that's not always, you know, necessarily true when you've truly looked in the mirror and know who you are and where you want to get to and making sure you're aligned. So for anyone that's ever asked if there's anything else, is this enough? Is this how they end up looking like this? You know, I don't hate this. I hate this job. I don't like this marriage, or, you know, why do I always get myself in these friend groups that I'm always unhappy in? Anyone that wants to ever change that, you know, there's usually something that's not aligned and, you know, whether it's an external, internal thing, it's about changing those things so you are aligned and you can be fully, truly yourself. It's very empowering.

A (53:53)

You know, a lot of people, I think, still don't know who they are or realize that. You Talked about being 13, being in the hair salon, and having kids at school go, you know, are you gay? Are you this? Are you that? And when. And you share so beautifully your journey in your book. Your roots don't define youe about your journey of knowing you are gay and about all that. What age do you think you knew?

B (54:30)

It's really hard to go back to that time even now, because I never was really allowed to discover it. So before I'd even had a sexual experience. When someone's calling you something in a really negative way, you don't want to be it at school. You just don't want to be different. So before I'd even had chance to discover gay or what that meant, I shut it down and was like, oh, I'm not that. That sounds terrible, you know, I don't want to be that. That sounds awful. And the brain's really powerful. It's really powerful how you can convince yourself. And I was so hard on myself. That's what I've realized also throughout my life, I've been so hard on myself that I went through my whole life not even allow myself to look left or right. And I just stayed fully focused on being something, just being something better than what I was. And what looked like the answer was success, being financially secure. So I ran and I put my running shoes on and I was sprinting towards something that seemed like the answer whilst trying to have a facade of being this person that I should be, you know. And it wasn't until I was 26, nearly 27. I met them over my kids when I was 19. I'd always had girlfriends at school. Relationship broke down around the age of 26 and I started to sort of go out. My career changed, I was going out a lot more and I had different experiences. So around the age of 27, I remember one night at the end of the night, I was going up the stairs and this guy tried to kiss me. Was. We'd been around all night and I remember thinking like, oh, that was weird. But I didn't really think much of it. And I was always around kind of gay guys because, you know, in. In the beauty industry there was. There was gay guys there. So I didn't really think much of it. I was just like, oh, that was weird, Whatever. I was drunk, you know. And then we became friends. He didn't live in the uk, so we would speak on the phone and I guess it was the first time I allowed myself to have a friendship with someone that was gay. You know, I never had a gay friend before and just talking to someone that seemed normal seem, you know, bad or, you know, just seemed like a nice person. So that was the first time I kind of took footsteps into discovering what that was about and Then, you know, I started to have feeling towards them, and. But I very quickly shut that off. I very quickly got scared of that when it started to get like. It felt like there could be something more. So that ended, and I kind of just stopped. You know, it was only phone calls, but I just. I was like, no, no, no. This is. This is. This is all that bad stuff that people, you know, told me about. And I remember when. A little deeper. When I was sort of 10, my mom sat me and my brother down, and she spoke about sexuality. And back then, not. People didn't really know a lot about sexuality. And she told me about this thing called gay, and these men get HIV and die. And, you know, back then, that's kind of what people knew, you know, like, Princess Diana shook someone's hand without gloves, and it made. That had hiv, and it made worldwide news because everyone thought they could just catch it. And, you know, it was like a disease, you know, And I remember just being very scared of all that as well. I was like, no, I can't be a part of that. But I think or I felt that being gay meant. You got that just. It kind of came with being gay, you know, And I was like, no, no, I'm good. I kept coming back. I was like, no, I'm good. I know what I'm doing. I have my family, and I love that. I loved being a dad. I loved.

A (58:18)

You know, because at this point, you were with Kate.

B (58:20)

Yeah, our relationship had broken down, kind of breaking up. It was that kind of awkward period, and we were kind of trying to figure out our friendship, and we had two kids, which, you know, obviously are always my number one goal. So I. I kind of very quickly thought I just was having a bit of a midlife crisis, I think. You know, I think with the relationship breaking down, sometimes you do things that, you know, we. We saved the revenge haircut. You know, I think I was just going through something, but I think once I actually allowed myself to delve into looking into the mirror, because that's what I was really doing. I was actually just looking at myself. You know, I think it's the time when people do go for a breakup, but you kind of do look, you do want to change something. Once I'd seen myself, I couldn't unsee myself. So once I think I kind of stepped my, you know, toes into the water. I. I kind of couldn't. I tried to get away from it, and I just ended up coming back to it. That's when it got really hard because People like to think they know. And I realized that when something's a secret people want to know the answer to. You know, people can get very, very mean about it. And so there was conversations going around, and I knew I had to kind of say, I'm gay. Once I'd met someone and I started to have a friendship and a relationship, and I realized I was gay, I had to sort of also just be open about that without really understanding what it meant for me or how I got to this place. And everyone said, well, you must have always knew. And I was like, but I didn't. I was so happy with Kate. We had a great relationship. I wasn't thinking of guys when we had sex. I wasn't watching gay porn or going off to meet men. I just didn't. My brain never went there, but it wasn't until I'd experienced it that I was like, oh. But then I hated it. I didn't want. I was like, oh, this feels like a. I felt like I was one of it. Felt like a disease. I felt like a cancer. I wanted to cut it out of me. You know, if I could have physically taken it out, I would have. And I was like, wait, why can't I just go back to the way I was? I was fine. I had it all together. I was good.

A (60:21)

Yeah.

B (60:21)

But I couldn't. I couldn't return to it.

A (60:22)

You say in your book, you say you pray God would cut the part out of you that was gay. Yeah, Cancer.

B (60:28)

And I used to lay every night I had a picture of my kids, and I just used to lay with that. I just. I just so desperately wanted it to go away and for me to wake up and it'll be gone. Like, I just was like, why is this here? Now all of a sudden, and I can't control it. It felt like it was just consuming me. I was like, how do I. How did this happen? I couldn't understand it, because I hadn't. I guess it was the beginning of me actually finding myself. And I think the night that I told my kids was the hardest, because the number one thing as a parent you don't want to do is ever hurt your kids. That's all you want to do is protect them. You know, if someone says that something to your kids at school, you want to go up there and sort that kid out, who was it? Tell me who said something? You know, someone pushed someone at the playground. I'd be like, which one? You know, like, you know, you just want to protect your kids, but if you're the one bringing them pain. What was so hard about that night was I really went back to when I was a kid and I wasn't just bullied. It was so aggressive. You know, people would spit on you, they'd jump you from the back, just fully get beaten up. My mum. I'd have to call the police. And I hadn't done anything. I was just with my friends. I just was. You know, I'd get the bus and I'd go into town and do my. Do my job in the salon and come back and people just. They didn't like it. I was different. So they found that that was something to shame and something to bully. And I felt like telling the kids that night that I was gay, basically, was gonna bring that shame onto them and make them different. And they would experience what I experienced at school. I survived it. I don't know how, but it was so dark, you know, it was. It was. It was really painful. And I just felt like I was just this problem. I just felt like I needed to be deleted. I just. It's the only way I could describe it. And, you know, that night was the darkest moment of my life. And I went off, I told the kids. And I can actually say that for a long time. I couldn't say the words. I guess I actually couldn't get the words out. And I think a lot of men that come out can relate, or women or whoever it is, can relate to not being able to say it because I hadn't done all the work to be able to say it. Just to say it just felt. Felt like I was saying I'm. You know, something terrible. So, anyway, we told the kids and I just remember the confusion on their face. And I just thought, God, I've changed their lives forever and I've ruined their lives. I just felt like I was absolutely the worst person. And I got in the car and I drove away and I just went on autopilot. I drove, I drove, I drove and I checked into this hotel and I still had the picture of the kids. I remember that's the only thing I'd kept with me. And I just laid there and I just. I, yeah, that's. I. I felt a lot of shame around this, but I. That's the night I tried to end my life, you know? And I genuinely believe that it would be better for the kids to have a dad that was dead than to have a dad that was gay. And I was prepared to make that sacrifice to protect them. I just didn't Want them to ever have anything like what I went through. And I laid there and I closed my eyes and I just held the picture of them. And, Well, they found me. And then it was actually Kate, the mother from my kids. She traced my call and don't remember a lot after that. It was really confusing. I was in the hospital for a while. And I remember when I came around here in my family and I laid there and I distinctly remember feeling different because I couldn't have hated myself anymore. Like, I couldn't have tried to run away from myself anymore or abandon myself or not truly see myself. No one could have said anything that I didn't feel. And in that moment, I thought, well, I tried to kill myself, and it didn't work. I don't think you could get much lower than that. So if I'm going to be here, what about if I just stop and I just look and I just surrender? And it wasn't loud. It was quiet. But in that moment, I thought, what about if it was, this is just who I am, and I don't know what's next, but why don't I just start here? And in that moment, I remember, like, there was something I'd never felt in my life, which was just like my shoulders went down, you know, Like, I think I'd been like that my whole life. And, like, I had my eyes closed, and, you know, I opened my eyes and I. I didn't know what was next. I definitely didn't have the answers. But I decided to start, you know, And I was like, well, this is who I am, and I'm gonna go on this journey, and anyone that wants to come along with me is welcome. And anyone that can't do that, I'll. I'll respect and understand that. But if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna be me. And that was the beginning.

A (66:13)

When you say you just decided to surrender and be like, this is who I am. Like, surrender to who? Or what?

B (66:22)

I think, surrender to that little boy that I left at 6 years old. Surrender to him, come back to him and go, you know what? I see you, and you're good enough. This. You're enough. And surrender to the bullies. Surrender to the. The labels that I was labeled with. Surrender to the what society told me to be and how to act, how to go through my life. But more importantly, I think it was. It was surrendering to myself and allow myself to be seen, allow my. Myself to look in the mirror. And I didn't necessarily feel proud. I didn't necessarily feel happy with my reflection. I didn't necessarily feel like I knew that what I was looking back at me, but I was like this. This is who I am. And I think that was the beginning of the real. The real Chris Appleton, the real me, the real authentic me. And the journey was long after, and plenty more things happened along the way, but that was probably the moment that I actually came back to myself. And, you know, the sad part is so many people go through their whole lives and they've abandoned themselves.

A (67:47)

Yeah.

B (67:48)

They've never actually gone. Who am I? Is this truly my decision? Was this really my decision of how I am and who I am and my surroundings? Or was this sort of part of who I was told to be and told what to be like and told what success is? You know, because the truth is that success, that goal, when I put my running shoes on, being successful, being financially secure, that seemed like the answer. And I got it. And I realized I was still so unhappy. I was still so unhappy. I still get into situations that were really bad for me, and I didn't want to be alone. I did it because I didn't want to be alone. I didn't want to face it. And, you know, that was really scary because I was like, wait. I always thought this was the answer.

A (68:47)

When you say the time you say you prayed God would cut that part out of you that was gay like a cancer. Do you believe? And then you finally decided to surrender and embrace who you truly are.

B (69:00)

Yeah.

A (69:00)

Do you believe God made you gay?

B (69:04)

I think, yeah. I mean, I think I was just born that way, you know, I think it's just who I was. I think it's who. I think we all inherently are very individual human beings. Although we'll have similarities to other people. I think society tells us and confuses us what we should be or what's right or what's wrong. And there's lots of different types of variation and just moments along the way. I remember as a teenager, maybe another time that I would discovered looking into being gay. We went to a gay club, but I actually had a girlfriend at the time. And we were in this gay club, looking around, digging in, and I remember this gay guy was at the bar and he turned around to me and he's like, you don't belong here. And I remember thinking, oh, yeah, you're right, I don't. Yeah, I don't belong here. You know, that stayed with my whole life. I don't belong here. You know? It confirmed. Yep. No, I'm you know, all these little moments, it would just be something someone once said, and it might have unfortunately been your parents or a sibling or, you know, usually people closest to us that we've carried. And again, that's what people will find in the book is these really small things we've carried our whole life. And they're really paralyzing.

A (70:12)

Yes.

B (70:13)

You know, we just excuse it. We're just like, oh, you know, that's just who they are. They didn't mean anything by it, but we're carrying it, you know.

A (70:22)

And that question, I think, like, for every person listening right now and watching, like, if you just think to yourself, like, who am I before the world told me who to be? Like, who am I truly? And one of the many things I think is so powerful about this conversation, about your new book, your roots don't define you, is you're still saying, even after I got all those things that the world told me to be and achieved what I thought success was, and you sort of have everything where you're like, why am I still unhappy? And it's the moment when you've kind of risen to like, okay, this is who I truly am. And then you start doing the work of understanding, okay, now this is my identity. This is who I am. But starting to do the work of, why is it I don't want to be alone? Okay, let me figure that out. Why is it? And it's sort of this, like, life journey of really being and embracing who you truly are that you're now feeling alignment. And I think that what's so beautiful and powerful about this is that, you know, for every person listening, no matter their circumstances, no matter where they're at on their journey, or what success might look like for them, or what financial freedom might look like for them, or all those things, of course, impact our lives. But really, to achieve fulfillment and happiness and meaning, it's like, it's only possible if you are who you truly are, who you truly are. And I've had so many people around me in my journey in life that maybe don't know who I truly am. And when they don't, it doesn't feel good anyway. Like, you want real friends that really, like, love you for who you are and want the best, the best for you, you know, and just like, cherish that, of course.

B (72:03)

Well, you know, you've obviously had incredible success. Yeah. And you seem such a well grounded person. So from someone that doesn't know everything, like, you seem like you have it all together. But, like, was there A point in your life that you found yourself or found who you truly were or kind of came back to yourself. Like, do you feel like, you know, coming from backgrounds where, you know, we weren't privileged and incredibly hard and, you know, I guess getting to that point of success and realizing, oh, success doesn't fix everything. Like, have you had that aha moment, you know, where you looked in the mirror maybe?

A (72:40)

Oh, yeah, I've had a few. I continue to have them. One of the, you know, one of the moments I shared with you earlier when I realized, you know, when the first time I had lunch with Oprah and it was like a lifelong dream and, you know, and she gives me her cell number, says, call me anytime, come.

B (72:55)

Incredible.

A (72:56)

And I don't call her for four years. Right.

B (72:59)

She doesn't have some.

A (73:00)

Right. And then she doesn't answer when I call her. And thankfully she has now. But I think, Chris, I think having that aha moment where I realized, oh, I have not called Oprah for four years because deep down inside I didn't believe I was worthy of being your friend and then starting to do the work. Cause I know that's a lie. Like, number one, I am a kick ass friend. Number two, I know that's a lie. So it's like, okay, I had to start doing the work of going, okay, I, I'm confident in my career. I just built a billion dollar business. All these things around me that the world says should make me feel enough. I have those. I've worked my ass off. Like, I've done every job on the planet. Like when I was a Denny's waitress, I was like, I was trying to be the best Denny's waitress.

B (73:45)

The fact that you were a Denny's waitress makes me love you even more.

A (73:48)

I can listen. I got stories. I got stories and. But you know, I was confident in a lot of areas deep down inside because I didn't feel like I was, I was sabotaging things I didn't think I was worthy of.

B (74:00)

Totally. And then look at how things change when you did.

A (74:03)

Yeah, exactly. It's a child, you know, Oprah, to be the first guest on this show. I remember her sitting across from me just like you are right now. And I remember sitting in this chair going, that almost never happened had I not done the work on going, how do I understand why I can have all these things on the outside, but deep down inside, feel like I'm not enough? And we see this manifest in friends. You have friends. I have, where you're like, oh, My gosh, they have everything. Why are they dating? This person treats them horrifically over and over. It's because, yeah, you can have confidence in all these areas, but if you don't have deep self worth, which is totally different, you keep accepting it. Yeah. Yeah. You hit a ceiling to the level that you believe you're worthy of. And so for me, it's been like. And what I love about your book so much. Yeah. Your roots don't define you. You talk about that journey of. Of almost lifting that ceiling and going, okay, this is who I am. How do I embrace who I am? And what do I do when I have those moments that tell me I'm not worthy or make me go back to those things? And so for me, I've had many of them. But I sat across from Oprah and I'm like, this almost didn't happen. Like, I almost doubted myself out of my own destiny.

B (75:14)

Isn't that wild?

A (75:15)

It's so easy to do.

B (75:16)

Do you know, I had that moment once where I tell you now, if I had made a different decision, I wouldn't be here now. I wouldn't have done that book. I wouldn't be sitting in front of you. I wouldn't have worked with any of the clients I've worked out, and I'd still be in Leicester, in middle England. I probably would never have braved to leave the salon I originally worked at. And it was actually when I first moved to America, I got the call to do Christina Aguilera's hair on the Voice, and I was like, great. Because basically I'd been here for four months, had moved to America on a win because, you know, JLO reached out to me and said, could I do her hair for her Vegas tour? And I remember thinking, who? Well, how does JLO know Chris Appleton? So I deleted the email. I thought, oh, this is trash. This is like a joke. You know, it's like, you've won a million pounds. Ring this number.

A (76:04)

Yes. Yes.

B (76:05)

You know, I was like, oh, this is stupid. But then I got another email, and I was like, how does she know who I am? And then I realized, I was like, well, social media had just started. So I started to use social media to show my work. And I guess people look. People are always, you know, looking at social media and checking people's work out. So I decided to move to America. I thought, maybe I can do this. Maybe I could go to the next level. But then I moved here, and I didn't do anything for through, I think, maybe four months. And I remember Kate, the mother of my kids, who, you know, we remained best friends, she said to me, chris, if you don't make this work, you're gonna have to come home. Because I had financial responsibilities. And, you know, I'm off here in America living my dream. Not really. I mean, a lot of people go to America and not Hollywood, land of dreams, and not, you know, I was had to work. So I got the Voice. Christina Aguilera. Let's go. And I remember I was in the car and I was on my way to do her hair, and I was so nervous. I felt paralyzed with fear. I was like, she's Christina Aguilera. She's an icon. She's a legend. Who the am I like, Chris? I'm like, she's gonna see right through me. So I remember speaking to Kate and she said, look, Chris, if you don't make this work work, you're gonna have to come home. And it kind of stayed in my head. So I got to the Voice and there was like three hours for glam, which is a great amount of time to do some good work. So I sat outside the trailer, and the makeup artist went in, and I didn't. So I thought, okay, well, I'll just wait a little bit. So, you know, usually sitting down waiting isn't great for anxiety because it just grows. And I'm thinking, oh, God, I'm such a loser. There's probably someone else already in there. I'm probably one of. I'm such a joke. He's probably already got someone. Like, I'm probably not even gonna do her hair. Like, well, I'm just so stupid. She. You know, as we're going through all these things in my head, an hour went by and I'm still not in. So I'm like, wow, you know, this is. She's probably. I might be just touching her up. You know, I didn't really know what was happening. The last 20 minutes before the live show, she called me in. So I went into a trailer, and I was thinking, her hair's probably gonna look great because it's only 20 minutes, so what else is there for to, you know, there's only touch up time. So I went in and I was like, hi, you know, and she said, oh, hey, you know, what do you want to do? And I was like, oh, my God, you do need your hair doing. You know, it was ready. She needed the headwind. So I was like, okay.

A (78:08)

Well, nothing was done on her hair yet.

B (78:10)

No, nothing's held on her hair. So I was like, in my head, I was like, well, what I'd like is three hours. But, you know, things happen and they're doing interviews or do, you know, she's pulled in different places. So I had 20 minutes and that was it. So as I prepped all these hair pieces and I thought, you know, this wig would look really good, like this hair piece. And it was like kind of cooler. It's like a Hollywood wave and it would be quick. And I said, oh, you know, a confident Chris. I'm like, we could try this week. And she said, I don't like wigs. And I was like, yeah, of course you don't. And then I think, why would you like anything I've got to do? And I say, she sees me, she sees me. She sees that little kid Chris with just a dream of hoping to do something, you know, I used to try and make my mum like a Hollywood star. Who the hell am I to be here? She can see me, you know, she can see me doing my mum's hair as a kid. And I felt so small. So I did that thing that hairdressers do where they kind of just. It's kind of. They move your hair around, they just kind of keep touching your hair and they're usually trying to figure out what's going to go on and what's going to happen. I was just praying that something was magically going to happen with her hair. And then it was the one moment I've had in my whole career. Never had it again, but it was like the clouds parted. It was the weirdest thing. And I remember this fear was like coming in through my chest and it made my hands feel numb and my legs feel weak. And I just remember feeling so small, like it joke. And I remember Kate's voice. And Kate was someone that always believed in me, even though we'd been through so much. You know, Kate, your kids, mom. Yeah, of my kids. She always believed in me, even when I didn't. And I remember her voice and Chris, if you don't make this work, you're gonna have to come home. And I thought about my kids and it just kind of put me back into like my adult body because I was definitely going back to 12 year old Chris feeling not good enough. Feeling like, you know, just insecure, scared, ashamed. And I came back to myself and I thought, you know, I know what I'm doing. At that point I was 31, I learned so much about hair. I'd prepped for hours, had all these beautiful pieces and I knew I was good at it because, remember, I used to work at the cancer patients and I used to, I got that. I got them really good. So I said, you know, you never tried one of mine, so why don't we try one? She said, all right. So I put one on her hand. Dinner. She said, oh, so I like it. And the stylist kind of looked over and she said, it looks good. So I had 10 minutes by that point, you know, and I did air. I put it on, left the hairline out and off. She ran on to the live show, and there she is sitting in front of the whole world. Because then you've got the next thing, which is social media, and everyone can have an opinion on it.

A (80:39)

Yeah.

B (80:39)

So I was like taking pictures of the screen, I think, I think it looks good. And she came off and she had a little break. And Christina, she just looked over at me and she went, everyone likes your wig. And then she carried on talking to the contestant. And in that moment, I knew I'd done it. I was like, oh, my God. If I had have given into that fearful moment that was literally growing through me, I would never have been there because I wouldn't have done the work. I would have done some rubbish hairstyle because there was no time. She wouldn't have booked me again, nothing. Whereas, you know, I did what I did. People watched it, the hair was different, people liked that. And then we had a great relationship, but did different looks. People recognized that I was posting on social media. The Voice is a great outlet that people get to, you know, it was just this like, kind of knock on effect. But that was definitely a defining moment in my career where I definitely wouldn't be here now if I would have given in to all of those old beliefs I had. And that's why I wanted to write this book and be really honest about it and share some of those real, real stories where I really didn't have it all together. And I really felt that fear that people feel. But the difference is I decided to come back to myself and I, I. And I kind of quietened that voice and I go ahead.

A (81:57)

Yes, that's so powerful.

B (81:59)

But we all had them.

A (82:00)

We all have those moments before.

B (82:02)

How many nose. You know, you've got a great life, you've worked very hard for it. But like, how many no's have you had? How many times do we get knocked down? Yes, it's how you pick yourself up and move to the next step is really something that I'd be proud of, is that I'm more proud of being able to pick myself back up and move on.

A (82:19)

Yes. So good. That's one of my favorite moments you actually talk about in your new book. Your roots don't define you. It's that moment because every one of us can relate to it. And there's been moments where you feel that whether it's your younger self or your insecure self or your self doubt and you want to just shrink and you want to go back to that place. So in that moment, you're sitting there with Christina Aguilera when your first biggest moments in your career. And you could have easily, especially, you know, she has a confident Persona. I'm imagining I haven't met her before.

B (82:46)

But, you know, she's also worked with everyone. The best hairstylist in the world.

A (82:51)

And she says, I don't like wigs. And you could have just shrunk down and gone, okay, back to that. And you had this moment where you said, clouds parted ways. You return to who you are, and you say, you haven't tried my wigs. Yeah, that moment. Right, Chris? It reminded me so much. I remember we were talking earlier about. About when IT Cosmetics sold to l'. Oreal, and there were a lot of people don't know this, but a lot of meetings we took with l', Oreal, they said no for years. And a lot of people just know the fairytale outcome or they read the headlines. And I remember I would tell them, we will be your most successful acquisition in l' Oreal history. Like, I would tell them that. And I just. I had to sum it up every ounce of belief, but I believed it was true, but it was so kind of bold. But it reminds me of your moment where you're like, you haven't tried my wigs. You tried my wigs. And it's the difference. We all have that. The difference between, like, what do we know is true and in our power, about who we are, that's in alignment versus, like, what's so tempting to shrink back into dim our light.

B (83:50)

It's easier to go small.

A (83:52)

Yes.

B (83:52)

Easier salon chair and rip yourself apart.

A (83:56)

Yes.

B (83:56)

Than to actually say, do you know what? Actually, I like these things. You know, these things are the part of the me. And, yeah, it doesn't mean you don't want to aspire to be better or evolve, but this is where I'm at.

A (84:06)

And a lot of people, I think, are scared to go into their power because they're so scared of what other people think. And I want to ask you about that especially because of the world that you live in with. Oh my gosh, your, your popularity on social media, your, you know, you have so many high profile clients where you probably have to do protect their image and there's so much going on. How do you handle, and this is for everyone now because I think Chris about, you know, remember for years there was people maybe in our families or people you'd be around where if someone was taking a photo they didn't want to be in the photo they don't want to be. Now it's like every person, no matter your profession, you're online, you're getting reviewed, you're getting, you know, if you're a doctor, a lawyer, maybe you were never public facing before. Now you are because everything's online and people are writing reviews and people are not used to having to handle other people's opinions. And I remember growing up like if you were, if someone was upset about something, they had to write a letter to complain and send it into the company. Now it's instant, it's on social, it's everywhere. How do you handle that? And I'm asking for every person listening because this is now everybody's challenge. It's like, okay, how do you handle when other people are sharing their opinions or their critiques or their whatever might happen? And in a similar question, you working with some of the biggest stars in the world, what are tips you've seen where they had that help them handle this type of stuff and not let it, you know, make them play small or shrink.

B (85:36)

I mean, I think just for me, maybe, maybe 10 years ago, I would have been very different. I think it would have really bugged me and I would probably get quite obsessed with the comments and the negative stuff and really focus on it. But I think in just in doing the work and knowing who I truly am and be proud of that. Yeah, I can now. It's really weird. I, I don't really find it a problem. I kind of like it when there's a different conversation, different point of view. I mean some people just say horrible stuff and I'm just like, whatever, you must be unhappy. But like, yeah, I don't mind a conversation. I'm okay with that because I know what I'm doing. I'm putting myself out there and I'm going to get an opinion. I know I've had times where things have gone viral. I'm like, oh my God, get this taken down. Like, I can't the, the comments like, because all you see is the negative. You don't ever see that. You know, just like, yeah, it could be 100 great comments. One bad one, you, like, focus on it. But, you know, that's also part of being viral or having these moments is there's going to be a mixture of opinions. That's kind of what makes something take off. So I just try and see the pros of it all and that, like, I chose to, you know, put myself out there, and I choose to put my work out there. So there is going to be a conversation regardless. So I kind of just try and embrace it rather than, you know, get uptight about someone saying something that I don't want to hear. I. I think truly that's because, like, I know who I am.

A (86:50)

Yeah.

B (86:51)

And I'm all right with that. But like I say, there's a part of my life in my past where I wouldn't have been.

A (86:56)

Yeah.

B (86:56)

And it would have led me to want to change myself, manipulate myself into something that people wanted me to be or see or even do the type of hair they want to see or that person or that one person that lives in, you know, bum wherever, like, want to sit. You know what I mean? Like, I would try and I would get disheveled, but now I don't. I'm just more centered. I'm like, oh, that's. It's interesting. Okay. That's someone's opinion. Nice. You know, we all have them. It's great. It's a debate, you know?

A (87:21)

Yeah.

B (87:22)

I try and just. I just try and be a part of it. I don't know. I don't. I don't. I don't find that a problem.

A (87:27)

Doesn't bother you.

B (87:28)

And I think the people that, you know, I work with, I probably like what learned from the best. Because also, it's like that. If you imagine every celebrity, listen to every bad thing that's being said about them, there would be. You want to be able to leave the house?

A (87:40)

Yeah.

B (87:40)

I think it's them truly know the. Who they are. They know who they are. They've sensed it. They've weathered the storms, and they've come out the other side. And, you know, when you've done the work, it does make you a stronger person. Do you know what it's like?

A (87:50)

Yeah.

B (87:51)

It's like going to the gym. Yeah. It's like going to them. You're a little stronger, you know, You're a little stronger. You're not as weak. You know, you can. You can. You can take a little bit more weight, you know, because you've done the work.

A (88:01)

Yeah.

B (88:01)

You didn't go once or twice. You've been going consistently for years, and you built up some stamina and, and, and you respect. There's a level of respect you have for yourself as well. And again, these are just little tricks and tips that are in the book that people can take away and be able to have that as well. You know, those powerful. I guess I say small, but it's actually very powerful because social media is huge and it's everywhere, you know, and it's a big part of our lives, but when used well, it can be a real advantage.

A (88:28)

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. A lot of people struggle with it now, and you look at even mental health and you look at all of it, but just. It's wild, you know, I'm grateful and blessed to have a lot of different people on the show that maybe vote different from each other or love different or pray different or whatever it might be. And I've had a few guests where I was anticipating it, but whoa. The attacks from social, you know, depending on who I might have on. I've had people on here who, you know, are Democrat and I've had people Republican. I've had people who all different things, and it kind of doesn't matter. Just about with every episode, you hear a million great things, and then you hear people that are upset about something, and that's normal. But I've also had celebrities on that come with huge opposition. Huge opposition. And that's been really interesting. And I've gone through. And sometimes when you have people on your show, they just assume that if they don't like that person, then they don't like you either. And so that's been interesting. And I've even had guests on where the attacks are so much that then the bot attacks start happening where it's like tens of thousands of comments and you realize, oh, they're not real, they're actually bots. And it's wild what's happening out there, but it's kind of everywhere. And it's similar to what you say about going to the gym and getting stronger and stronger. I think that the me of 10 years ago would have like, sobbed my eyes out if someone that I have on the show, if all of their haters are attacking me. And now I just think, like, okay, what's the intention for this show? You know, it's help people feel less alone, more enough, more inspired, more empowered. Did that conversation do that? Yes. Like the intentions there that, you know, all of it. I know Who I am. I'm so grounded in faith. But it's, it's. It can be hard, especially when people.

B (90:15)

Are writing, I mean, going to step further. That even press, when people write press about you and that stories are not true or people are saying things about you that you're like, well, you know, that. That's not. I don't know about that. That's not my lie. You know, but people. And then people read it and they make that perception of you.

A (90:30)

Yeah.

B (90:30)

You know, that can be frustrating. But also, again, it's just about knowing who you are.

A (90:35)

Yeah.

B (90:36)

And it's just noise, really. It's just noise.

A (90:39)

Yeah, it's noise. And I think so much about, you know, kids and, you know, your kids age, like, younger generation. My prayer is that they all learn that fast. They all get that strength fast.

B (90:51)

You know, I'm really proud of my kids because I would be worried sometimes with every. I mean, we have a very real relationship. Obviously, I'm a younger dad and they've been through a lot and they live in America now. They came to Hollywood. That was, you know, their choice. And there was actually a situation recently at Christmas where I was really taken back. Families can be really hard work. And, you know, going back to the uk, I actually just brought a house in the UK in a different area from where I lived as a child. For a long time, I couldn't even go back to England. I would land in England. I'd be in the car, journey on the way over, and I would literally be having a panic attack. I. I didn't know what was happening, but I was like, I can't be here. I've got to get back to the life I made in America. Because when I moved to America, it was the first time I could say, hey, I'm Chris Appleton. And people were like, well, nice to meet you. It wasn't like, oh, that was Chris Appleton. That was straight and he had kids and now he's gay and he was, you know, in England, it was always this rumors and conversation. I always just felt like people were talking about me. I was like, I felt shame, but I could be me, you know, I could start off a new life. So when I was in America, I felt like I had that. When I came back to the uk, I felt like I was going back to that guy. And I was like, oh, my God. I just felt like I needed to get out. I literally couldn't be there to come back and actually buy a place in the uk, you know, and start a new story. And a new journey is very healing, you know, very full circle for me, because it is my roots. I want my kids to have a place there still. And my family, you know, my. Actually, my mum lives there and, you know, my dad and I wanted them to have a different life as well. And it was just a really proud moment. Anyway, I was going back and, you know, families are interesting. And I guess it was a time where I realized how much I'd grown, but not everyone chooses to. And there was dynamics that happened that I was just really triggered by, and I didn't even realize. I actually. My friend Delaney, who was with me, she also works with me, she said, oh, I've never seen you like that. Because I was like. Someone said something and it took me back to when I was like 12 years old and I was at a table and I just. My head was down and I didn't say anything and I was very quiet, but I was like. Felt like I was taken back. And we all can be things. People can say certain words that will just trigger us, whether it's, you know, I don't know about aging or weight or, you know, the financial situation. But anyway, I remember after it kind of ended up in a bit of a. I ended up leaving. And I think I need to get back. I need to. I need to leave. I don't want to be around this. And I didn't leave because I came back to myself. The old me would have ran and just left and gone back to America. But in actual fact, I was like, you know what? No, this is where I'm at in my life. I'm very proud of that. And if these people can't. If it can't be respected, then I'm going to put a boundary in place. And it's just like, you know, if you can't respect my wishes, then, you know, you're not welcome, basically. And that for a long time, for me, felt, because I always just excuse things. It's like, oh, so who they are. It's just who they are. This is what they do, you know. But I didn't realize, actually it wears on you. And it's not, you know, people have to have a response, take responsibility and accountability. But in actual fact, one of the most sort of amazing moments of my whole Christmas was my daughter Kitty came up to me and she's. She was there and she said, dad, you know, I love you, but I just want you to know this particular person, I want to just draw a line there. And I'm going to Put a boundary up that I don't want to interact with that person anymore. They've never been great with me. I've always tolerated it for you. But after this, you know, encounter, that's, you know, something that I just want you to respect. And I was so proud that a young 21 year old, you know, girl could have that respect for herself, quite rightly by the way and you know, respectfully just communicate that it wasn't an argument or, you know, it wasn't a fight or anything. It was very quiet and calm and I was like, wow, you know, she's learned something from, from me and my mistakes, which I'm really proud of. So, you know, that was very proud of my kids.

A (94:53)

Yeah.

B (94:53)

You know, in a new generation of people that know that, you know, you can make a difference. But I think sometimes actually, you know, over the age of 20 and again, this will relate to a lot of people with the book is a lot of people think it's too late. They're like, well, I'm in it now, you know, I'm 30, I'm 40, I'm 50 or I'm 60, I'm 70. Listen, it's never too late. When you're dead and in that ground, that's when you can give up. But until that point, you can make a change. You can make you come back and it's never too late. Look at Kris Jenner.

A (95:21)

Yes.

B (95:22)

You know, she had that new face. She fully owned it. And she went out there and you know, the best part is she was just having a good time. She wasn't trying to break the Internet, it just broke, you know, it just, you know, she we these new hairstyles, her hair was a bit long, she have different looks and she had the face and she's having a good time, you know, and I think that came across and people kind of love that. You know, it's never too late. And she wasn't trying to hide her old self or say that face wasn't much. She was just, oh yeah, my face. You know, she's very honest and open about it. I love that. But it's just never too late. Whatever your choice is, you know, whether it's a facelift or if it's a divorce, whether it's, it's just to change, you know, your hairstyle is possible. You just have to know how to start. And a lot of people don't know. That's the biggest question. People say I don't know how to change. Where do I start? And I think What I am very proud of with the book is we put steps in there to actually help people start and, you know, have fun along the way, you know, so it doesn't feel so heavy.

A (96:14)

She wrote the forward to your book, right?

B (96:17)

Sweet. How fucking great. Chris Jenner wrote my forward for my books.

A (96:21)

Yes.

B (96:22)

Young Chris would be very. 12 year old Chris would be incredibly proud. Yeah, I mean, I have to say also, you know, Kim, Chris, you know, Drew also wrote forward. They've all been incredibly giving and grateful and I'm very honored, you know, and still, it's still quite overwhelming, as I'm sure it was, you know, when you were talking about Oprah or something, where these icons and people that were so inspirational to you are, you know, so kind back. But I've learned to accept it now and, and I'm, I'm proud of that. And, you know, I'm proud of something that I can deliver to people, which I genuinely believe it will make a big difference.

A (96:58)

So I have to ask you this. For years I would meet someone and they go, don't look at my makeup to me.

B (97:05)

Oh my God. And I'd be like, everyone says that.

A (97:06)

I'm like, oh, I promise you, I'm.

B (97:08)

Not looking at your makeup.

A (97:10)

I promise. Because I would associate. I would just say, for me, I would associate, work with it. I was doing 100 hour weeks for a decade. I was like, oh, no, I promise you, I'm not even slightly interested in looking at your makeup. I promise. And I used to. It's funny, I learned that dentists, I guess dentists, like, they hate when people show them their teeth at like cocktail parties. Like, look at this problem. And the last thing they want to see is someone's teeth. But I'm curious about that for you. And then I'm going to ask you, how do we know our best cut and color for us? Because most people have no idea. How do we figure that out? But when you meet someone, do you notice their hair? Like, do you notice and do you. So for example, this morning, so I did no glam today. I had no glam. Right. I just did my own makeup and did my own hair. And I'm thinking Chris Appleton is coming on my show. I have probably. And the woman who does my hair, I love her. So if it ever doesn't look good, it's on me. It just means I haven't gotten back to her in time. And. But anyhow, I'm thinking about, I'm like, I'm like, is Chris going to come on my show and be like, oh, my gosh, her hair. And then I flash back to how forever people would say to me, don't look at my makeup. I'm not looking at your makeup. Also, when we're friends in real life, you'll see, most of the time, I'm a hot mess with my hair. Not done all the things real. But do you notice people's hair when you meet them? Like, do you actually notice, like. Or do you just not.

B (98:40)

I think it depends. I think if you're in a very personal situation.

A (98:43)

Yeah.

B (98:43)

You maybe will, you know, you'll maybe glance, but not in a, you know, judgmental way. Just notice, like, oh, your hair. Like, for example, when I saw you today, I thought, oh, your hair looks a little darker than when I'd seen you before. And maybe a picture or, you know, because again, we just take these moments, these little seconds of moments, and we.

A (98:58)

We.

B (98:58)

We get an idea of someone.

A (98:59)

Yeah.

B (99:00)

So, no, simply that. But a lot of people, they'll come up to me like, oh, my God, don't look at my hand. I'm like, oh, I'm not.

A (99:05)

Everyone says to you, right?

B (99:08)

Oh, my God, don't look at me. And I'm like, oh, okay. And. But then they love to say, you know, if you could do anything, if you could do anything, what would you do? You could do anything. I'm like, maybe, I don't know, Consultation. People love to do that. Tell me. I have this. My hair's thinning, and I need to, you know, people love. I don't know. Hair is just. People love to talk about it. But I like that it's fun that people like to kind of get into it, because it's a big part of, you know, the way we look.

A (99:32)

Do you have. And you talk about this in. In your book. Your roots don't define you, but do you feel like you have this ability to look at anyone and go, this is how they would look. Their most beautiful version of themselves for who they are. Like, their. Their energy, their essence, their personality, their spirit. Like, this is how. And you can see. See it. And you would do it.

B (99:53)

Yes. And I don't know why I have it, and I don't. It's just always been there. When I. I saw it when I was nine years old, I did my mom's hair.

A (99:59)

Yeah.

B (100:00)

And I just remember feeling like it was like a superpower. I think what it is is the difference with me. I remember when I worked in a salon, the people be sitting in that chair, and it's the chair. It's the chair. You're in the chair and you're in the mirror.

A (100:11)

Yeah.

B (100:11)

And you're vulnerable. Okay. So then people walk over. The hair stylist walks over and I saw some hair stylists would walk over and they'd stand behind them, which isn't very personal. I think it's nice to come around and talk to the person.

A (100:22)

Yeah.

B (100:22)

Make eye contact. But they would stand in the mirror like. So what we're doing today, same as usual. And the, you know, so someone might be looking for a hope of someone to see them and. Yeah, okay, sure. Yeah, same as usual. Because, you know, I'm fine. It's fine.

A (100:38)

It's fine. Your favorite word.

B (100:39)

Can hate the word fine. Whereas I would sit down, make eye contact. So tell me a bit about you. You know, I'd start the conversation, tell me who you know, who are you? What do you do? What do you love? You know, what are you? Passionate out. I try and get a bit of their personality, you know, and then we'd look at things that you look at, which goes into the book, like skin tone.

A (100:55)

Yes.

B (100:55)

Eye color.

A (100:56)

Yes.

B (100:56)

But most importantly for me, personality was really underestimated. Now if you think about personalities, and I talk about this in the book, you've got different types. So you got some types of clients that are like a whisper client, some that are like a talk client and some that are like a scream. So if you think about whisper client, it may be someone that generally keeps their hair the same color, you know, doesn't like to make too much fuss, has regular trims, likes their hair to be healthy, but doesn't engage in trends, etc, but then you might have someone that is a tall client which will follow trends, like to keep up with the latest look, but nothing too outside their realm. You know, think of maybe someone like Jennifer Anderson. You know, she, she has sort of a variation of lengths. The height, sometimes a little blonder, sometimes a little darker, but it's never like, like short back. And you know, it's, it's always relatively Jennifer Anderson. If you, if you say Jennifer Anderson's hair, you could describe it, you know, but she'll keep up with the latest looks, you know, and it's beautiful. And then you've got like your. And also that works with her skin tone or eye color that all complements. But then you look at someone like a scream client, which is maybe someone like, think of like a Lady Gaga. She will do things that are so extreme it doesn't necessarily need to suit her Eye color or suit her skin tone, but it suits her personality. And she will wear that. That she doesn't care about her eye color and her skin tone. She'll change that with the makeup to make it work with the hair. You know, she's telling a story. She doesn't want to follow the trend like the Talk client does. She wants to set the trend. So there's these different type of personalities where the rules change, but once you know the rules, you can bend them. And in the book, that's what people will get, is they'll get to know who they are, what type of client they are, and then what actually works for them. But if they want to change it, they can, you know, but you got to first of all, know the rules.

A (102:36)

Yeah. And I love in the book. So when you get your copy home, by the way, it's available right now, grab it. Your roots don't define you. You can get it anywhere books are sold. Amazon. You can do the audiobook, which is great. Awesome.

B (102:47)

The audio is funny. If you want my British voice.

A (102:50)

Your British voice.

B (102:51)

Oh, my God. That was an interesting week in the booth of talking to everyone. I tried to imagine the person in front of me. It's just very personal.

A (103:00)

Yeah.

B (103:00)

I tried to connect with them.

A (103:01)

And did you do throat coat tea or anything like that?

B (103:04)

I had everything but throat coats, coffees. Like, it was just like a keep me going, keep me alive. Because I'm so really trying to put my heart and soul into, you know, talking about my life, work, the people I work with. I wanted to give them the credit that they deserve, you know, like working with celebrities, talking about them and, you know, some of the behind the scenes of that, but also talking about some of the darkest moments in my life, but also some of the funniest moments of my life and, you know, the highs and lows of it all. But I really actually wanted to go back to what it was all about, which was connecting to that person. That's the reader.

A (103:33)

Yes.

B (103:33)

Making sure they leave with something.

A (103:34)

The reader's gonna get so much out of this book. That's what I love. So. So if you're at home right now going, okay, well, I want to be sitting across from Chris Appleton and ask him the question everyone asks him, which is, okay, what would you do in this book you talk about, okay, if you have an oval face shape, if you have a square shape, you know, if you have round shaped face, here's hairstyles that work for you. You know, here's skin tone and eyes what sort of color and texture. So what I love is, if you can't meet Chris Appleton in person yet, you're helping everyone understand for them, how do I figure out sort of the.

B (104:06)

Most.

A (104:08)

Beautiful version of who I am, Right? In our essence or in our personality type or in our face shape or eye color or skin tone. And so that's in there, I was saying this to you when we were walking over here, is that I love so much that, you know, you go so deep into so many of your own personal stories, and you also, as well, give the reader really great hair tips and really great insights into all of that. So then I'll ask you for me, because people are going to write in and ask me, so what would you say I should do for to my hair? To be like, what would you do?

B (104:39)

Anything.

A (104:39)

I could do anything.

B (104:40)

Well, first of all, that would be.

A (104:41)

The best that you would say, like, oh, that's the most complimentary.

B (104:44)

First of all, I think you look beautiful. I think you have great hair, and I think you have a great aesthetic. I think you like you. You look confident, you come across. You know, you make, like, great eye contact. I think it's more about your hair type being like, what's. What do you love about your hair? Like what? What do you love? Like what? When do you feel your best self? Like, do you feel great when you have, like a bombshell? Blah. Or do you like it quite flat with not too much volume? Like, do you know what kind of makes you feel good in the feeling?

A (105:10)

You know what? You're gonna be mortified when I tell you this. So when I went on qvc, listen.

B (105:14)

Let me tell you, the things I've.

A (105:15)

Seen, the things you've seen.

B (105:17)

I'm never gonna be surprised. It's gonna take a lot to make me feel shocked.

A (105:20)

It's so funny. So I found out I was adopted in my late 20s. I had no idea.

B (105:23)

Okay. I'm shocked.

A (105:24)

Eventually.

B (105:24)

Oh, that's a big one. You know, it's funny, isn't it? Every kid, I always thought I'm adopted. I always said that to my kids. I thought, I'm adopted. I felt like I wasn't like my brothers or sisters. Wow. When you found that out and you had no idea.

A (105:34)

No idea.

B (105:35)

Wow. Okay.

A (105:35)

And I went on this five year search for my birth mom. We eventually met, long story. But anyhow, one of the things I've learned now that my birth mom's in my life, she's like, you'll never get gray hair. She's like, we don't get gray hair. I'm like, huh? And I never have. I've never had gray hair. I don't know. But what I was gonna say is, you know Steve Jobs, how he wore the same black shirt, black pants every day for. So when I was building IT cosmetics for a decade, like, I was doing 100 hour weeks for a decade, I wore the same black pants, black shirt every single day. I had like 30 of them. And I was then going on QVC, right? 250 times a year doing live shows. So there was times I'd walk in the building, we wouldn't leave for 36 hours because we'd have a today's special value. I was working so much, Chris. I did nothing well in my life except work. And I literally did not do my hair. I'm not even kidding you. I didn't color my hair or really cut it for years. And every day I go on QVC with a bun that I did myself. And all that mattered was like, the makeup.

B (106:31)

The makeup. But also, you know, what you do and you're selling your product. It's all about.

A (106:37)

I was like, about to collapse for almost a decade, and I was like, okay, I can't even think about what I wear. I can't think about doing my hair. Like, everything took a back burner to, how do I keep this company alive? How do I grow it, how to. So for the longest time, I didn't even do my hair. And then. And. But anyways. And so for me, it's never been a thing where I used a lot of time toward it.

B (107:01)

So you've never actually found that one style that you're like, I don't think so. Wow, I love that. Is there any hair icons you have? Do you have any hair icons that you're like, oh, I love. I always, you know, you always love the way they have their look.

A (107:13)

I love watching people that do great things with their hair, like, try different stuff, like when. If Kim goes platinum or if she goes long. And like, I love watching all that. I also know behind the scenes of how much talent and work goes into a look. Do you know what I'm saying? And so I watched that. I'm like, wow. Because when you talk about three hours for hair for someone, for the voice, they probably don't understand, what would you do in three hours? But a lot of times, like, when you see someone walking the red carpet, like, that was a full day of prep to get to that amazing look or that. That moment. And. And the way My life, the way I've chosen so far for my life to unfold has always been about what do I trade time for? And to build that company the way I built it. Or now to on this podcast. Oh, my gosh. You don't even want to know the hours I put into this. But then I'm trying to juggle through.

B (108:04)

But also, it reflects.

A (108:05)

Okay, what do I trade?

B (108:06)

Such a fantastic job.

A (108:07)

Thank you.

B (108:08)

Just from a small person on the outside watching from afar, like, you've done an incredible job.

A (108:13)

Well, you know, I.

B (108:14)

But anyway, in answer to your question.

A (108:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (108:16)

I would definitely. You have such a beautiful personality, and it's quite a bright personality. I think it would be nice to be. To brighten it. Yeah. Like, some pops of color. Some pops of, like, blonde. Like, creamy blonde, just to, like, brighten it up around your face. You've got beautiful blue eyes, and you've got lovely olive skin, so that would be much more. It would flatter you, but I think also more va, va, voom. Like, a little bit more volume, so maybe some layer and maybe like, a little shorter in the length just to give it, like, a little bit more of a pop. You've got, like, such a vibrant energy, I think, that comes across when I've seen you, but in person, even more, in fact, infectious. So I think I would just want to enhance what you already bring out and probably what you do with your makeup as well, because, like, your makeup is really sort of beautiful, like, the cheeks and the lip, and I think the hair color could complement that, but it already looks great. It would just be polishing the. You know. Yeah, the diamond.

A (109:02)

I love that. I'm excited for everyone to get your book home because you are so specific about, okay, for your face shape. Here's what to do for your eye color, for your skin tone. And a lot of people wonder, and I think that's what so many of us do if we do go to the salon. And Right. We're like, okay, just keep it the same. Just trim it the same. Just kind of like, that kind of thing. Or there's people at home that do their own hair. They buy their hair dye at the store. They do their own hair. And I love that. That's one of the many benefits in your book, is going into that and talking about, how do you figure that out for yourself and how you described the moment with your mom or the moment in a salon where someone all of a sudden loves how they look. That's a great feeling when you just sort of Like.

B (109:43)

Like, it's so powerful.

A (109:44)

Yeah.

B (109:44)

And you think about, like I said, like, you know, we talk about different types of haircuts you do. And, like, you know, the breakup haircut, it's always the one with the red flags, because usually people want a fast cut way to cut away the pain they're in. You know, they want to cut away that memory because hair holds memories. That hairstyle was, you know, significant to that relationship. You know, he loved my hair like that, or that's how I had my hair. And people want to look in the mirror and they want to see something different. They want to see a healed version of themselves.

A (110:10)

Yeah.

B (110:10)

So sometimes the breakup haircut is a fast way to do that. And there's so much more emotion goes into the hair choice you've got, like, for you, you were saying, you know, honestly, time. I didn't really have time to, you know, put that energy into my hair as about, you know, doing your company and stuff. So it wasn't necessary. You know, you weren't necessarily using your hair to your advantage to sort of, you know, complete the look. Like, now maybe you're in a different place where you're, like, more inquisitive about that. Like, it's all to do with timing, but also, your hair just says so much about you that people maybe take for granted. But I just didn't want to write a book that was just about that because there's. That's only scratching the surface.

A (110:46)

Yeah.

B (110:46)

Because if you really want change, you have to get a little deeper. And that's why, like I said to you, I rewrote the book originally. This. This wasn't the original book. It was a very different version.

A (110:54)

Yeah.

B (110:54)

But this is actually something I'm proud of because it's. It's just real. And it actually. It kind of makes my Instagram look like it's a lie. It just makes, like, my Instagram look like a whole lie. Because it wasn't a true reflection of who I was or where I'm at. It was a very small percent of my life. But, you know, you don't realize people think they know you from that.

A (111:10)

Yeah.

B (111:11)

And I was like, well, to make people feel like they can relate, I think I have to really open up and be raw and really take away this kind of polished surface. Okay. We know the celebrities, we know these fancy places, or, you know, life looks great. Let's. Let's take that away and get real. Because we've all had those dark moments. We've all. We've all Got those insecurities. And I feel proud that I've learned some techniques and some ways to get to a better place, especially with working with some of the amazing people I've worked with. I mean, I'd be a fool not to be a sponge and absorb that. And I feel like everyone deserves to know a bit of that magic.

A (111:42)

You know, you and I were talking about this before the podcast that, you know, we were talking about launching a book. And I was saying when I launched Believe it or when I launched Worthy, my two books, that I went on a lot of podcasts, and I realized really quickly, oh, that person hasn't even read my book. The host of the book. And I get it. People are so busy. They're so busy. I get it. It's almost impossible.

B (112:00)

Well, some people said, they're read mine. I'm like, it's not even out. What do you mean?

A (112:05)

Right, right. And I would have this conversation. Yeah. No, but it's like, I get it. It's so rare to go on a podcast where they've read your book. And on this podcast, Chris, I have to read that person's book cover to cover, and I have to believe it'll add value. You know what I mean? Because I'm not doing this show to make money. I'm doing it as an offering to the world. I want people's lives to be better. I want them to, you know, be who they're born to be. I want them to feel the way you make people feel when they read your book. And so what I want to say is, I left your book going, oh, my gosh, I needed that for me, personally, in my life, I was like, I needed that. Like, I actually feel, in this way, sort of my own inner light, kind of like, igniting. By the end of your book, I was, like, fired up. I was even fired up to care about my hair, by the way. But it was more than that. It was about authenticity. It was about even the reminder that what we see on Instagram is a tiny piece of someone's life.

B (113:03)

Totally.

A (113:04)

And, you know, I think. I think the me of 10 years ago would have been like, the me who didn't call Oprah back for four years would have been like, oh, Chris Appleton's wig.

B (113:13)

Guys, can you imagine if she didn't call Oprah?

A (113:16)

I know, right?

B (113:17)

But can you imagine if I didn't do Christine Aguilar and pull that wig.

A (113:19)

On and say, you haven't tried my vagabond?

B (113:21)

This would be real. Yeah. Sometimes your life is One decision away. It's as simple as that.

A (113:26)

And it's that decision to go into that person, that. That truth of who you are versus Demi, like the me of 10 years ago would have been like, chris Appleton is way too cool to come on my show. Like, I would have. I would have had that whole conversation with myself. Right? And it's because. But. But I know so much better now, right? I know. And you and I have both had this experience where we've had the blessing of meeting tons of our, you know, people that before, we maybe only saw on television or we grew up watching in love. And I've had the same experience you've had where I can't name a single person I've met where I would say that they also don't have self doubt or also don't have, you know, insecurities. It's every one of us. And what I love that's so beautiful about how open and raw and vulnerable you are in your book, your Roots Don't Define youe, is that you come away going, oh, I'm okay too. I'm doing a great job too. Oh, Chris and I, we're the same. Oh, I can have my dreams happen too. Oh, this thing that ended horrifically and it was just two years ago. That's okay. We're all human and we're all on this journey together. And I love that you say, you know, there's a reason the rear view mirror is a lot smaller than the windshield. And there's so many just beautiful stories about not giving your past any more of your future. Totally something you say that I wrote that quote down from your book because I was like, that's so good. There's just so many beautiful moments in this book. Your roots don't define you with Chris Appleton. Transform your life. Create your comeback. Anything else you want to share with the person who's like, okay, what should I expect when I get this book home or when I download it on Audible?

B (115:10)

I think a journey of discovery, you know, and it's for anyone that has ever just said to themselves, is, is this it? Is this enough? If anyone's ever questioned that or if anyone has ever just felt like it's fine, everything's fine. Anyone ever used the word fine, Read the book. It's just about being a better version of yourself. So it'll make you laugh or make you cry. And I, I think, you know, make you maybe walk away with a few industry insights, a few secrets. I've had the privilege to work with some of the most famous women in the world. World. I've also worked with the most, you know, regular nine to five women in the world. I've worked with supermodels on the Runway. I've worked with cancer patients and people that have, you know, had a lot of loss. And universally, I've seen something work and a recipe work with every person I've worked with and that's put into the book to be able to help other people feel worthy, feel seen, feel enough and be able to make that change that maybe it's small, maybe it's. It's big, but maybe it's one that needed to be made.

A (116:09)

So beautiful. Chris Appleton, thank you.

B (116:12)

Thank you so much for having me. You're the best. And honestly, I have to say, even sweeter in real life than you are on, you know, from a distance, which is always nice to see. Yeah, you're lovely and you've done a great job. So thank you for having me. It was honestly something I was so looking forward to.

A (116:28)

Thank you. Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person that you know because it can impact and change their life, too. And if you love today's episode, please click the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value in your life, if you could, please give it a rating or review. 5 stars is really good. I would be so grateful. And again, please share it with everyone you know and everyone you believe in. Maybe another person in your life who could benefit from from it. Maybe they're making a change in their career or their marriage or their health or just need that boost of self belief. You can also share it online in your community because there's someone who is going to need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this. So thank you so much and thanks for joining me. Before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it's an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Cran Lima show here. I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your college falling and stay as long as you like because you belong here. You are Worthy, you are love. You are loved and I love you and I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you if you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.