Forgiving Family Abuse & Escaping Religious Hypocrisy: Stephen McWhirter’s Story | Ep. 85

Summary

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Summary: Forgiving Family Abuse & Escaping Religious Hypocrisy — Stephen McWhirter’s Story

Podcast: The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast
Episode Date: March 4, 2026
Guest: Stephen McWhirter (Singer-songwriter, author of "Radically: How Knowing Jesus Heals Our Brokenness")
Hosts: Jinger Vuolo, Jeremy Vuolo

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Overview & Main Theme

This episode explores the deep complexities of forgiveness, particularly in the context of family abuse and the hypocrisy often encountered in religious upbringings. Stephen McWhirter shares his dramatic life story — from experiencing abuse within a Christian household to drug addiction and ultimately spiritual redemption. Through his narrative, the hosts and Stephen unravel what it truly means to forgive those who've hurt you, how to disentangle faith from abusive or hypocritical authority figures, and how God’s grace operates in the messiest circumstances.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stephen’s Upbringing & Trauma

• Religious Hypocrisy and Family Abuse

  • Stephen’s father was an evangelist, preaching publicly about Jesus while being violently abusive at home.
  • This duplicity led Stephen to deeply resent both his father and God, which set him on a destructive path.
  • “My dad was an evangelist... I would watch my dad get up, preach about Jesus, but behind closed doors, I would watch him physically, violently abuse my mom for my entire childhood.” (02:44, Stephen)

• Impact on Faith and Self-Destruction

  • Stephen turned to drugs and rebellion, distancing himself from everything associated with his father’s faith.
  • “My heavenly father and my earthly father were the villains in my story.” (04:10, Stephen)

2. Encountering Grace and Redemption

• Turning Point With God (06:43-07:09)

  • Stephen describes a transformative moment reading Lee Strobel’s "The Case for Christ" at 3 a.m., surrounded by drugs, when he tangibly felt God’s presence despite not believing change was possible for him.
  • “God, I can’t do it... and in that moment... I believe the Holy Spirit spoke... ‘Steven, you won’t do it. I’ll do it.’” (06:57, Stephen)

• Immediate Transformation

  • After this, Stephen’s life rapidly changed from addiction to worship leadership.
  • “I went from addiction to redemption, from meth addict to basically a worship leader like a year later.” (10:06, Stephen)

3. Wrestling With God as Father

• Healing Father Wounds
  • The episode addresses how abuse from an earthly father distorts one’s view of God. Stephen admits this was a point of struggle, but found healing when experiencing God’s true nature.
  • “When I got saved, knowing the Lord in that way was like, hi, I’m God and I’m actually good.” (13:28, Stephen)

4. The Radical Call to Forgive

• Acting on Forgiveness (15:59–18:03)
  • Stephen shares how he felt God ask him to forgive his father, calling it “the hardest thing” he’s ever done.
  • The initial moment of forgiveness was deeply awkward, but led to emotional breakthroughs for both Stephen and his father.
  • “It’s one thing to just say to God, ‘Oh, I forgive them.’ It’s another thing to act on that forgiveness in a way where you show you believe it.” (15:59, Stephen)
  • “My mom tells me that night, my dad wept all night, thinking, is it possible that God could restore what I destroyed?” (17:54, Stephen)

Memorable Moment:

• Stephen tells the moving story of being alone with his dying father and expressing true forgiveness at his bedside:
  • “I lean in one last time with tears in my eyes, man. And I said, dad, I love you and I really do forgive you. And he breathes his last breath and leaves this world.” (20:54, Stephen)

5. The Challenge and Nature of Forgiveness

• Separating Forgiveness From Reconciliation

  • Stephen and hosts stress that forgiveness doesn’t require continued intimacy or even reconciliation; it means releasing a real debt, just as Jesus did for us.
  • “Forgiveness doesn’t always mean reconciliation for us on this side of eternity... I may not let them back... but I can forgive them and love them like Jesus.” (21:44, Stephen)

• On the Power (and Difficulty) of Forgiveness

  • Many listeners are initially “bothered” by his story, feeling that forgiveness is unjust for deep wounds, but Stephen reframes it as receiving and giving mercy.
  • “The idea of letting someone off the hook feels unjust... and that’s because you’re not getting what’s just, you’re getting what is mercy.” (24:28, Stephen)

• Ongoing Process

  • Forgiveness is often a daily, repeated surrender.
  • “77 times 7... I’ll probably have to keep doing it till I’m in heaven with Jesus.” (27:13, Stephen)

6. Repentance and Confession

• Repentance as Freedom, Not Shame
  • Stephen discusses how biblical repentance is always connected with God bringing good, yet people often hide in shame instead of turning towards restoration.
  • “Every time repentance is mentioned in the Bible, there’s something good that God is trying to do.” (25:14, Stephen)

7. Disentangling Faith From People

• Deconstructing vs. Disentangling
  • The hosts discuss how faith must rest in Christ, not in fallible leaders, recounting Jinger’s own journey leaving a movement tied to an abusive and false teacher.
  • “Was your faith built on a person or was it built on the person of Jesus?” (30:14, Stephen)

8. Restoration and Legacy

• Restoration (Despite Consequences)
  • Stephen is clear his relationship with his father was never perfect, but there was real restoration and evidence God can use broken stories for good.
  • “I am his son. And here I am today telling a story that brings people to Jesus... God writes the best stories.” (35:56, Stephen)

9. The Story Behind “Come, Jesus, Come” and Longing for Christ’s Return

• Writing the Song (36:27–41:39)
  • “Come, Jesus, Come,” now a celebrated worship anthem, was written in a moment of personal longing for Christ’s return — not as a commercial endeavor, but as authentic worship.
  • The song’s viral popularity was rooted in genuine longing for hope, not promotion.
  • “I just wanted to be sober. I just wanted to be okay and my life not fall apart. What is God doing with people?” (41:29, Stephen)

Notable Quotes:

• “The closing words of scripture are not insignificant. And yet how often are we praying for the Lord to end it? We're so consumed with the here and now.” (44:09, Jeremy)
• “We see the cross referenced and mentioned 28 times. It references and mentions the return of Jesus 318 times.” (45:21, Stephen)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the radical nature of forgiveness:
  • “One of the most powerful things we can do on this side of eternity... the most Jesus like thing, forgiveness. It is super powerful.” (00:53, Stephen)
• On true justice and mercy:
  • “You’re not getting what’s just, you’re getting what is mercy. You're getting what is grace.” (24:28, Stephen)
• On legacy and God’s providence:
  • “I cannot believe that you used my life the way you did when I shouldn’t even be alive.” (42:47, Stephen)
• On hope after tragedy:
  • “That’s real restoration. That is kingdom restoration. That’s not just a... self-help book. This is what Jesus does. It's wild.” (42:59, Stephen)

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Essential Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Content Summary | |-----------|----------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Introduction | Framing the episode on forgiveness and religious hypocrisy | | 02:44 | Stephen’s early story | Evangelist father, secret abuse, and impact on faith | | 06:43 | Spiritual turning point | Encounter with God while in addiction | | 13:28 | Reframing God as Father | Wrestling with God’s goodness after abuse | | 15:59 | Forgiving his father | The awkward, radical act of forgiveness | | 20:54 | Forgiveness at father’s deathbed | Emotional closure, the reality of forgiveness | | 21:44 | Nature of forgiveness | Forgiveness vs. reconciliation explained | | 25:14 | Repentance | Biblical understanding of repentance and freedom | | 30:14 | Deconstructing/Disentangling faith | Building faith on Christ, not flawed leaders | | 36:27 | "Come, Jesus, Come" story begins | Inspiration and viral journey of the song | | 41:29 | Reflections on God’s providence | Surprise at how God repurposed Stephen’s story for good | | 44:09 | The importance of longing for Christ’s return| Shifting perspective from earthly concerns to eternal hope | | 46:43 | Closing insights | The restorative, merciful nature of God’s kindness |

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, raw, and faith-filled. Stephen’s vulnerability results in both humorous asides (relating to “redneck” Louisville culture, or the awkwardness of forgiveness), and sobering, emotional recollections—replete with laughter, tears, and worship. The hosts echo his authenticity, sharing their own painful and liberating journeys with religious systems and forgiveness.

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Takeaways

• Forgiving deep personal wrongs, especially by family, is grueling — but pivotal for real freedom.
• Forgiveness is an ongoing act; it's not synonymous with restored relationship or trust.
• True faith must be disentangled from abusive or charismatic authority figures and centered on Christ.
• Restoration is possible even for the most broken stories, and God delights in redeeming what seems irredeemable.
• The hope of Christ’s return sustains and reorients believers through the pain of the present.

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Further Resources

• Book: "Radically: How Knowing Jesus Heals Our Brokenness" by Stephen McWhirter
• Song: “Come, Jesus, Come” (look for versions by both Stephen and CeCe Winans)
• Jinger Vuolo’s Book: "Becoming Free Indeed"

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For anyone wrestling with family trauma, religious hurt, or the idea of forgiveness, this episode offers hard-fought wisdom, moving personal testimony, and hope in the power of restoration.

Transcript

[A]

Today we are talking about forgiveness. What it looks like to forgive family members who have hurt you. How do you hold on to Jesus in spite of a religious upbringing that was filled with hypocrisy and abuse? We've got a very special guest who's actually gonna help us talk about all of that. We've got Steven McWhirter in the studio. Steven, thanks for being here.

[B]

Yeah, man, it's good to be here. You guys are so sweet.

[C]

Here you had an earthly father who had not displayed that love and care. Did you wrestle with the view of your heavenly father? Right.

[B]

When I could say it, I knew God was calling me to do the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and that was to forgive my dad. Now, it's a nice idea, right? It sounds very Christian. Doing it is a totally different thing. My mom tells me that night my dad wept all night thinking, is it possible that God could restore what I destroyed? Wow. And one of the most powerful things we can do on this side of eternity, the most Jesus like thing, forgiveness. It is super powerful.

[A]

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. And today we are talking about forgiveness. What it looks like to forgive family members who have hurt you. We're talking about how do you hold on to Jesus in spite of a religious upbringing that was filled with hypocrisy and abuse? This is gonna be a very powerful, poignant episode. And we've got a very special guest who's actually gonna help us talk about all of that. You may know him from his mega hit, Come Jesus, Come. He's just come out with a book, Radically How Knowing Jesus Heals Our Brokenness. We've got Steven McWhirter in the studio. Steven, thanks for being here.

[B]

Yeah, man, it's good to be here. You guys are so sweet. This is great.

[C]

Thank you for coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Coming all the way from Louisville, Kentucky.

[C]

You have to say Louisville.

[B]

Yes, you do, right?

[C]

You say it.

[B]

We're so redneck. When everyone says it correctly, we correct them. You know?

[C]

I love it, man.

[A]

Your story is a powerful one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And honestly, there's a lot of. Well, I'll say this. I think Ginger's story intersects a lot in, you know, her experience. Much of the same. But then her response to religious hypocrisy was pretty radically different than yours, and yet the same theme throughout. And so we're excited for this conversation. Why don't you introduce yourself a little bit to our audience, Tell them a bit of your bio.

[B]

Yeah. You know, for you and I, Ginger, it's not a club you want to be in, but, you know, we're in that club a little bit. But yeah, you know my story, my dad was an evangelist. So we grew up in church camp, right? And I would watch my dad get up, preach about Jesus, but behind closed doors, I would watch him physically, violently abuse my mom for my entire childhood. And it's wild because he got up and preached, but people were still saved because God's gracious and he's kind. That's just something I keep thinking about still today is like, why was. Why did his. Why was his ministry successful if he was like that? It's because God's good despite somebody's brokenness. But, you know, for me, at a young age, my dad, and because of all that, I was like, if God's good, he's not real, you know, I don't want anything to do with him. He can't be good, rather. And I don't want anything to do with this Jesus guy. And I just remember going down this path of just crazy addiction and rebellion because my heavenly father and my earthly father were the villains in my story. And I mean, like, 11 years old, man, I was smoking, drinking. By the time I was 15, it was cocaine, pills, I'm selling drugs. By the time I was 16, I was a full out crystal meth addict. Or 17, rather. I was a full out crystal meth addict and I was using every day for so many years. And during that time, I was the guy who hated Jesus, hated Christians. Would have cussed you out or tried to knock you out if you mentioned Jesus. I mean, I always say try, because I was a methodic, so I weighed like 100 pounds, right? So if I threw my whole body at you, you might have got a paper cut, you know what I mean? But I was. I hated Christians, so I was that guy, man. If you'd have met me, you'd have been like, if there's ever an enemy of the cross, it's this guy, right? And. But people were praying for me because it works. Prayer works. It's crazy. People were praying for me. My mom was praying for me, man. Like, my mom would pray for me as I'd leave the house, her and my grandma literally, not knowing if I'd come home alive. Like, just wild. But, you know, people praying. Somebody came and offered me this book called the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. You guys, I don't know if you've ever met Lee. He's such a Great. Such a great guy. Good friend now. But somebody came and offered me Lee's book. And having told you just how much I hated Jesus, this is probably the most miraculous part of the story. Because I didn't, like, cause a scene and kick somebody out of my house. I was like, cool, whatever. Give me a stupid book, right? And threw it in the bedroom. Fast forward. It's three o'clock in the morning. I'm in this room. I have drugs on the side table next to me. Nobody's playing a piano softly and quietly in the corner, making everything sound more spiritual, right? But it's the kindness of. I always say this is a kindness of a very real, very powerful, very kind, very loving God to meet a wounded evangelist son in a place like this, right? And as I'm reading this book about Jesus in this super, what seems like a conducive environment, right? I just remember knowing he was in the room. Do you know what I mean? Like that, like, you just know he's there. You just know. And I'm like, God, I want to give you my life. I think I believe Jesus, right? But there's no way. There's no way. I all have known for so long, there's no way I can quit all this addiction, all this darkness, all this anger, all this depression that I've known for just, like, over at this point, I think I was coming up on, like, 12 years of addiction that I'd been in. So I couldn't imagine who I was. Like, there was no other version of me that I could see. I remember being up for three or four days at one point during this time and having a moment where I went, oh, I'm going to die young, but I'm not going to quit. So it is what it is. That's a pretty dark place to end up at, but that's where I was. So. And I said, God, I can't do it. He knew I meant it. He knew I wanted to, but I couldn't. And in that moment, in a thought more powerful than words, I believe the Holy Spirit spoke something into me that changed me for the rest of my life. And it's this, Steven, you won't do it. I'll do it.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

Now back to the episode.

[B]

I didn't know it then, but I know it now. And this is Ephesians 2:8, right? You're saved by grace. This isn't something you can boast about, but it's a work of God. He does it. And there is something that we can do. John 6:29 says, the only work the Father asked of us is to believe. And basically that's what I did. Like, I took God at his word. I believed him. Like, I believe I'm breathing air. Like, that kind of belief. And I gave him my life. I fell to my knees, gave my life to Jesus in that room. Ugly, crying on the floor, boogers coming out of my nose, you know, gave my life to Jesus. Went from addiction to redemption, from methadic to basically a worship leader like a year later. Because very simple, I'll say something like, for most Christians is like a mon duh, but it's this. God's real. God's real. Jesus is Lord, it's all real. And I found that out in that room. And that was it. So there I was. And I literally went from this life to. All of a sudden, here I am, I'm a worship leader. What's happening?

[A]

How did the music, like, did you grow up in a musical family? Were you a talented musician?

[B]

How did that play in. You know what's wild? My last name, McWhorter in Scottish means. And there's an old family crest from Scott, and there's still McWhorter Castle and all this in Scotland, but it means son of the harpist, which is crazy. There's like an old. There's a harp at the top of this, like 1500 year old crest that says Ti di lamis. God we praise thee. It's crazy. So I'm glad I'm just not son of the doormaker.

[A]

All those Scottish names have such deep meaning.

[B]

Could have been son of the tax guy. No, no. But I've. I've been singing since I was a little kid.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Just doing it. There's. There's some pictures of me singing in revivals, like in a little suit coat. Right. You know, and you got the microphones with the big, like, red or yellow screen guards on them. You're like Beulah land. Right? But no, but a thousand percent, that's what you're seeing.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's what I grew up doing. But, you know, it was obviously in my teens, I. I ran from a lot of that. And I was in metal bands, like, screaming my head off every night, watching people beat each other up in front of you on stage. And that was. Yeah, that's what I. That's what I grew up around then once I became a believer. I remember when I got my first job at a church, I'd only been saved like a year. Never underestimate how hard up a pastor is for a worship leader, because ex meth addict will take you. You sound good. We'll put you there. But they gave me a list of songs I was allowed to play, and they were mostly hymns. But the coolest one at that time was. I can only imagine. You know what I mean?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. When you go from what I went to screaming and all that, but you actually encounter the Lord like I did, you're happy to sing those songs because you believe he's real. It's not about cheesy. It's about, oh, my gosh, I get to sing to you.

[A]

It's the weight of those truths.

[C]

And I love hearing what you said about, like, even when the Lord, like, reached into your hardened heart and you are so anti God, anti running to him, because you saw the hypocrisy of what you grew up in that whole system. It had betrayed you, but God had not betrayed you. He was there in the midst of it. And I love how you said even the circumstances of your conversion.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You were in a place where no one else could reach you. And yet God, it was offensive to

[B]

some people, I would imagine. Yes.

[C]

But it's like you said, the music wasn't on, Nothing was perfectly lined out. You had your drugs next to you. You were pursuing that life, and God just completely reached in and grabbed you out of that. And I want to ask you a question. How did your view of God change in that moment? Because here you had an earthly father who had not displayed that love and care. And did you wrestle with the view of your heavenly Father because of that?

[B]

Yes, I think a lot of us have. You know the thing like in the United States where people say, Daddy, God, and everybody gets uncomfortable. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, I still do. I don't tell him that, though. Yes, I think it's fine, too. I think our problems with it are our problems, like, because Abba is like this super intimate, that kind of thing. I think we all have some views of a broken father or something. It's just this weird dynamic for us because everybody has a. Like, you know, cannot. You cannot over. And I'm preaching the choir. You can't overest, like, under, you know, how significant a father's role is in your life or a parent's role is in your life. It's wild. And with that, you know, when I got saved, knowing the Lord in that way was like, hi, I'm God and I'm actually good. It was like, cool. I can't wait to get to know you, because I did not believe that about you. And, yeah, the wild thing is, you know, when I got saved. Let me just say this. Like, when you get saved, you give your life to Jesus. We're like, yay. That's it. It's really at the beginning, that's the Start of life. And it's like a pebble in the ocean that begins to become like a tsunami of grace and redemption that starts hitting areas of your life that you never imagined. Because for me, getting saved that night, it was okay, awesome. If I could just be sober and stop burning my life down around me and just be okay, that would be great, right? But see, with God, he wants to bring the kingdom through your life. It's crazy. And with my dad at this time, when I got saved, my dad hadn't touched my mom, like, physically abusive or anything like that in almost 12 years at that point. I think now I'll just say, I wish my mom would have left my dad. I won't lie. I wish she would have left him. In this book, you'll see that I was definitely for that. She did not. She stayed with him. And she even said recently we were talking, she's like, I probably should have. I'm sorry I didn't. But. But it's really been wild, this whole process of writing this book, right? And here I am in this moment, and I don't condone it, right? And if you're not safe, get safe. If you hear this, right? But right when I get saved, I knew God was calling me to do the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and that was to forgive my dad. Now, it's a nice idea, right? It sounds very Christian. Doing it is a totally different thing. And meaning it is a totally different thing. It's one thing to just say to God, oh, I forgive them. It's another thing to act on that forgiveness in a way where you show you believe it. I go to my dad, this is not something you'd put in a movie. Totally awkward, you know what I'm saying? And it was, hey, my daddy's in the quintessential lazy boy dad chair, right? And I'm like, hey, we need to talk real quick to drive to their house. And he, you know, I said, hey, I just wanna say I forgive you. He looks at me like a deer in headlights, like reality is cracking. And he just goes, oh, thank you. I mean, there's like no bird on my shoulder or beam of light shooting in. It's like the most awkward moment. I'm just like, okay, cool, I did it. All right, bye. And I get my car to drive off.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And I'm like, but God did something beyond what I could see in that moment, right? Fast forward. My fiance, which is my wife now, at the time, was like, hey, she was watching me to see if I meant it. Right. Give my life to Jesus. So she got saved pretty soon afterwards

[A]

because she was in the addiction with you.

[B]

She was in the bed that night as I was reading that book. Wow. I actually ended up moving out, staying on a friend's couch.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Because she was like, are you insane? What is going on? I was like, I think the consensus among her and friends are, are you high? What's going on? Right. But she was like, hey, I feel like your dad should baptize us. I don't know if that's the Lord, but I feel like he's supposed to. I'm like, this is insane. I hate this idea. Okay, fine. So on our way to get baptized, my wife and I get in the biggest screaming cussing match you've ever seen. On our way to get baptized, mind you. And we knew that, like, something was trying to keep us right from going. So we ended up going, we get baptized. My dad baptizes. My mom tells me that night, my dad wept all night, thinking, is it possible that God could restore what I destroyed?

[C]

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[A]

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[A]

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[C]

Now back to the episode. Wow.

[B]

And fast forward more. My wife's like, hey, I want your dad to perform our wedding ceremony. I'm starting to think this marriage is not going to work out.

[A]

But

[B]

she's a problem now.

[A]

Jesus saved you. He really saved your wife.

[B]

Behind every good man Is a terrifying woman. My wife is amazing, but she's like, yeah. So my dad performs our wedding ceremony. Crazy. What's going on? My dad now, at this point of us talking today, has been dead over 11 years or more from cancer. He passed from cancer when my dad was in hospice. I don't know if you guys are familiar with a lot of hospice situations when you're going to the moment of, you know, cancer at hospice and you go into, like a coma, basically, you're unresponsive. And people. People tell you at the hospital, doctors and hospice, they're like, hey, they're just hanging on for weeks, right? Like this. And they're like, hey, you need to tell them it's okay to go. And usually people, they pass very soon after that. I remember I'm the only person in the room. My dad, you know, where Peter says to Jesus, he says, how many times should I forgive my enemies, Lord? Seven times seems like quite a bit. And Jesus is like, no, seven times 77 times. Like, just don't, don't stop. Do it. Complete and ongoing, probably, right? Maybe. But I'm thinking about that I'm in this room and I'm watching my dad just struggle to breathe. And I'm alone with him. And we've been telling him for like a week and a half, it's okay, you can go like that kind of stuff. And I lean in one last time with tears in my eyes, man. And I said, dad, I love you and I really do forgive you. And he breathes his last breath and leaves this world. And I knew in that moment it stuck with me ever since 1 the realness of God, like my dad's soul left his body. Like, you know, it. Like, it was the most surreal moment. And here's what I know. One of the most powerful things we can do on this side of eternity is. Is Jesus the most Jesus like thing is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, believing what he can do, power through us, all that forgiveness, it is super powerful. Now, forgiveness doesn't always mean reconciliation for us on the set of eternity, which is crazy because with Jesus, we're reconciled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What? Right? Yeah. But forgiveness is a real debt. Like somebody owes you Ginger. Like somebody owes you Jeremy. Right. And my dad owed me, owed my mom for sure. And I have the ability to take that debt and rip it up like Jesus did mine. Yeah. Now, the reconciliation part that may not happen is in the sense of I may not be friends with them ever again. I may not let them back. You know, I'm not gonna let Them be around my family if they did something terrible. But I can forgive them and love them like Jesus. And that's crazy because I believe for a lot of people there is something super powerful and just so massive kingdom that God wants to do through people's lives that's literally on the other side of forgiveness. And for some, on the other side of repentance, which

[C]

that's really wise.

[A]

I mean, you're hitting something massive. A lot of people think forgiveness is dependent on the person asking. And we do see that in Luke 17, Jesus says, if anyone asks for forgiveness, forgive them. And so some people will use that as an excuse of like, well, they haven't asked. Sure, I'd forgive them if they'd ask. And they don't realize that their refusal to forgive them even before they are repentant is destroying them. That's something you write about, that's something you've talked about, is how forgiveness impacts you. And they forget in Mark, chapter 11. And this is this crazy, radical forgiveness that you're talking about with Jesus. Jesus says, whenever you stand to pray, if you have anything against anyone, forgive them.

[B]

Yeah. Which is like, even in the Lord's Prayer. What's one of the things he says? Like, that's a fundamental thing. It's the forgive us or dead, as we forgive those who've wronged us.

[A]

He's assuming you've done it.

[B]

Oh, well, he's be right. He's batting a thousand in that case, you know.

[A]

Well, no, but he's assuming like, he's saying, look, pray this way. Forgive us as we've forgiven those. Meaning you have forgiven those.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, he's going, stephen, you've forgiven your dad. Right. Like, you've forgiven those who've hurt you, which is so not. It's so supernatural.

[B]

Seems like how many people have read my book already that have come to me and said, that really bothered me. Yeah. Wow. Your dad. But it also challenged and made me realize because they all have something. We all have something. Yeah. The idea of letting someone off the hook feels unjust.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's because you're not getting what's just. You're getting what's mercy. You're getting what is grace.

[A]

Preach, brother.

[B]

And that doesn't mean I have to, you know, keep being best friends with them or. Yeah, okay.

[C]

Talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Here. Here's something I will just say real quick, too. There are some people that have wronged someone who have done the hurting. Okay. We were in San Quentin recently in the prison with these People for life. You know, we met this guy, Bruce Davis. He was literally Charles Manson's right hand guy. Right. Just crazy. These are people that have done some pretty terrible things. Repentance. When we hear the word repentance, especially in the church today, the first thought is, you know, this canceled kind of idea of, oh, if people find out the terrible, awful, disgusting thing that I did, they'll never talk to me again. I'll lose everything. Hide it. Because we don't know what repentance means in the Bible. Every time repentance is mentioned in the Bible, like there's something God good, something good that God is trying to do. If my people who are called my people will turn from their wicked ways. Repent, turn, go the other way. I will hear their prayer. I will heal their land. All this kind. That's good. Go on. Acts 3, 19:20, Peter is preaching. He says, repent so that the time of refreshment will come from the Lord. We're so afraid of something being taken from us. We don't trust the Lord. We're so afraid about what we're going to lose or the opinions of people that we forget that what we're doing is we're hiding and we're running into death. Nonstop thinking, it's going to be fine. We just keep hiding. We'll just keep hiding. We'll just keep hiding. It'll go away. I'm saved by grace. Yes, you're saved by grace. You're a son, you're a daughter of the living God, but you're still destroying your life here on this earth in the lives of people around you. By hiding and not turning towards life and watching.

[C]

We know better than God.

[B]

God can do. Yeah, it's wild.

[C]

That's so wise.

[A]

Yeah, it is the heart of the gospel. As we've been shown mercy, we show mercy. I'm fascinated. You said people who've heard your story have revolted by it initially because somebody

[B]

hurt them very badly.

[A]

Yeah. So how. What counsel have you given to people of, no, you've got to forgive. And we've seen those compelling images, like the guy going to the courtroom and saying to his daughter's killer, I forgive you. But then there is that line of, like, now I'm not gonna have this guy, when he's out on bail, babysit my kids. Right. Like, what's the balance of forgiveness and relationship?

[B]

Well, I can't make somebody do something. Here's the one thing I know about forgiveness. People that are going through this deep wound, you can't Just set them down and go, now. Do it. Forgive right now. Go do it. Here's all the reasons why I wish it was that easy. But, I mean, I do hope they read this. And I believe if they read this or they read the Bible, you know, if you don't read my book, read the Bible, please. But I think they'll get stirred towards it. But, you know, they still have to go to the Lord and go, God, I want to forgive these people. Help me know what it means to 77 times 7 keep coming to you and forgiving these people and letting this go. Like I said, you know, I said that to my dad as he passed, and I said it to him one last time on this side of eternity with him in it. But I think it'll be 77 times 7 times. I'll probably have to keep doing it till I'm in heaven with Jesus. And that's okay, because I do want there to be reconciliation. But wounds are funny things, right? But God's really good. He's really kind, and he's really good at dealing with this stuff. And in a world where there's all these different opinions on how to do it, Jesus way feels really upside down, feels really unjust to a broken world, to a world that goes, no, you can't forgive. Jesus 100% loves your greatest enemy. Jesus 100% loves the vilest human that's ever been on this planet. That's what makes the gospel and the grace of the good News so offensive, man.

[C]

That's so powerful. I kind of want to keep. Keep heading that direction, what you talked about. And also I want to ask you, because in that forgiveness in those wounds, how was it for you when you walked back into a church for the first time, having grown up with your dad being an evangelist and walking into those doors, was it hard for you to, for one, sit under the preaching of the gospel and wondering, wait, is this person who's teaching me, are they living it out? Was that a challenge for you or being in a church setting again with other believers? How did you handle that?

[B]

No, actually, you know, if I think back on that moment again, I had such a wild encounter with the Lord where I was like, oh, my gosh, he's good. I mean, I was like a crazy person. Going to people around me, I was like, it's real. It's all real. You know, everybody's like, okay, buddy, get away from me. You know, like. But that's what it felt like, man. I mean, so when I was in those churches, I Wasn't really thinking about all that. I know that sounds. I'm not trying to say that you wouldn't. I just wasn't. I think that came a little later, after I settled into it all. You know, there's this. I feel like my whole story has been holding on to that 3 o' clock in the morning moment and that what God did and not getting so complacent in sometimes church culture where it's just, you come to church, come on, blah, blah, blah, do the thing. And there was a moment where that kind of sunk in. And I caught myself going, that I don't know about this guy, or blah, blah, blah, or who knows what. And today that's very easy. There's a lot of people getting caught doing terrible things in ministry and all this kind of stuff. And I think the thing for people in that is like, was your faith built on a person or was it built on the person of Jesus? Because I hear all these people that go, oh, this super famous pastor fell, or this person did this thing, and now I've left the faith. I don't want anything to do with it. You hear these things going down. That's because the whole ministry has built so much on this one person, not Jesus, that when this terrible thing happened, the foundation just crumbled. But if the foundation is built on knowing Jesus, whatever comes, it's like, okay.

[A]

That's why Ginger wrote Becoming Free. Indeed. Literally, in this movement of deconstruction, where people are going, that guy's false, or whatever, they're abandoning Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Ginger proposed disentangling.

[C]

Yeah, definitely. Like, because I think that the setting I was raised in, we had a teacher who claimed to speak for God, but he didn't. And he was accused of a lot of horrible things. And I had just grown up listening to his teaching all of my life. And a lot of my friends ran away from me.

[B]

There's no way that really happened.

[C]

And all of that. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Story is old enough to tell.

[C]

But a lot of people, just a lot of my friends, they just walked away from everything completely. Because ultimately you're right. They were putting their trust in this person instead of looking to Christ. And so even in sharing our stories, it's one of, yes. You want to point people beyond that, beyond that person. Because we realize we are gonna fail, we're gonna fall. But if we're in Christ, that he's gonna keep us and we're gonna keep walking. Even if we're falling, we're failing as sinful humans. We have to realize that about even a church situation. Yes. The more you settle in, you're like, oh, wait, we're all sinners here, but we're looking to somebody greater, looking beyond ourselves into Christ.

[B]

I mean, I don't know. I think there is the. Your new creation. They said it, you know, the old has gone, that has come. Your new creation. There is that sinking in, letting that sink in. But I also think some of this is as simple as. There are really not great people out in the world abusing systems and abusing people and taking advantage and doing things.

[A]

And in the.

[B]

They're everywhere because people are everywhere. And some of them are in the church. We shouldn't be surprised. It just seems more noticeable because of what it represents. Right. So I think that ultimately, is it that simple? But also, you know, hey, as you can see, God is very good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In his time, you know, like, people just think we'll hide, we'll get away. I don't know about you, I don't see that going very well. Like, people are. Everything that people try to hide, it never turns out okay.

[C]

Yes. Is the mercy of God to expose them in that. And some people will go to their grave having not been exposed for what they've done or their intentions. But we do know, and we know in scripture, that they will stand and give account before God. Each one of us will. And I think that that's. That's where I think, even with forgiveness, like you said, there's that side of us that wants the justice now. We want it today. We want them to give account now. But we have to trust that God knows the hearts of men and he will ultimately reconcile all things to himself in the end. And realizing that we have to be patient. We have to even, like you said, for our hearts to today trust that his words are true, that we have to forgive now.

[A]

That's the ultimate confidence to be able to like Stephen, as you're even recounting your experience with your father, and I can't even imagine. Well, I would say this. The fact that he was abusive towards your mom, you probably would have had an easier time forgiving if it was just towards you. But the fact that it was towards your mom. Yeah, but to know, like, God, God is judgment is in his hands. But the incredible thing with your dad is you would say he had a restored relationship. Like he came.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, was it perfect? No, I talk about that in the book. I'm not trying to sugarcoat everything like that. Everything was great. No, it was not. But there was some restoration and there was some good that God brought.

[A]

Do you think he, like, came right with the Lord between him and the Lord?

[B]

Yeah, I do. Yeah, totally. But at the same time, sometimes there's the, you know, I'm a sinner saved by grace, or I'm a son of God. Now, really, that's what I like to say. Right. I'm a new creation. Yep. Somebody said once, you know, you can be a new creation covered by the righteousness of Jesus, but then you can act in a way on this side of attorney that's contrary to that, end up in jail. I'm still a child of God restored in the righteousness of Jesus, but I'm in the consequences of this world, like, where I live. I mean, the consequences of my actions. Right. So from my dad, there was consequences to his actions.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

But I am his son. And here I am today telling a story that brings people to Jesus. I get to see thousands come to Christ through my life, through my story. That's amazing. God writes the best stories.

[A]

Yeah, he does.

[B]

Even with my dad. And that wouldn't have happened.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like. Right, so. Yeah, it's really good, man. I mean, it really is. It's good.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, sorry. Were you gonna say something?

[C]

Well, no, I was gonna want to shift into Come, Jesus, Come.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The song that you wrote. Because that's something that every time I listen to it, like, I do get emotional. It's one of those that really, I think. Okay. And I hate being.

[A]

Are you getting emotional now?

[C]

Well, I hate being emotional, but it happens. But like, songs, honestly, when it's a song that's so powerful, like, Come, Jesus, Come. We all have our hearts longing for that. And to hear it sung so beautifully. Our girls sing it all the time. Like, it comes on the radio, I feel like every two to three days and we're listening to it and. Look at that. I need tissues. Are there tissues there? Oh, they're here.

[B]

No, no, no. We want people to see you cry as you talk about the song I wrote.

[C]

But it's. No, but I. I want to hear about that.

[B]

The Lord writes how.

[C]

Yeah, but how. How did you write that? What was the inspiration behind Feel inspired?

[A]

Like, did you feel like the Lord was.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't say that. Like, there are a lot of songs that we hear. And singing, like, people just got in a writer room. What are you gonna do? I don't know. Okay, let's write a song. And then God, Jesus, powerful. When you hear the story, you're like, what? They just were like, cool. Nobody believed in. They just left the room.

[A]

Sure, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Yep. But that was not this song. My wife and I sat in our basement six years ago during the pandemic, and we had Revelation 22, chapter 22 open. And we were weeping, just weeping and praying and worshiping. And we started to. Do you know the Revelation 22:20 says, Jesus goes, behold, I'm coming soon. And right after that it says, come, Lord Jesus. And my wife and I begin to, for the first time, really understand what it means to long for Jesus to return. You know, even before that, it says the Spirit. And the bride said, come. That's this calling for people to come, but it's also calling for us to join with the spirit of God to long for Jesus to return. And I wanted that for the first time ever. And I was learning what it means to be like, oh, when I love people better here in this world now, towards that day, right? It's so much more powerful. I build things that matter more here and now in the side of eternity, towards that day when I long for him to return. It's not that you're so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good. It's Colossians 3. Set your mind above for Christ to see. You're only so heavily minded, you're more earthly good, right? And I was starting to understand that. So my wife and I wrote that first verse and stuff that sometimes will fall to my knees and pray, Come, Jesus, come, let today be the day. All that kind of stuff. It was really not, this is a hit song. We're writing songs, people are gonna sing. And Allah, it was real and it was a moment. We brought it later to some friends of ours, Hank Bentley, Brian Fowler, love them. They're so great. And we finished the song, as we know today. And that was back in 2020. And I remember I had a record deal at that time with somebody or a publishing songwriting deal and everything. And I wrote the song and I won't say who the. Don't go look it up. Doesn't matter. Forgiveness is important. No, but listen, you know, I took the song to them. I said, man, I feel like God's breathing on this. And I've recorded a version. I feel like God's going to use it. And they're like, yeah, we pass. And they ended up letting me go for my deal, like, two weeks later. God's good. He knows what he's doing. I was like, okay, fine. I don't know. I feel like God's on this. So for four years, I sang the song to Jesus and we would put, like, snippets on social media and TikTok and Instagram and all that. And one day, just an acoustic version of me with a guitar just went viral. And it wasn't people going, cool singer Grace. It was people longing for Jesus return, like, for real. It was giving people legitimate hope. And it really is something the spirit is meant, like, in us. It's something we're literally made to do. And so not long after that, Caleb started playing my version and all this kind of stuff. And then, you know, we find out Cece Wine's doing. I've never actually talked to her. I've never met her.

[C]

So crazy.

[B]

Somebody was like, cece Winan's doing this song you wrote. I was like, wow. Which is great. She's awesome. She just won a Grammy with it.

[C]

Wild.

[B]

Crazy.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But I can't help but think, like, it's wild. Six years of just worshiping Jesus and praying God, like, uses this thing not to build my platform, but to build his kingdom. Right?

[C]

And what I love about it, too, is, though, that depth of the song. Just talking about how we've been waiting so long. And when you think about it, you're waiting for him to, as you go on to talk about, like, to wipe every tear, you know, right every wrong. And that's something that when we look at the brokenness and the pain that you've experienced, each one of us have experienced, and we do want that, and there's that longing. And I think that's where the song really ministers to us. Because, yeah, it's so powerful because there's so many who are hit with that. But when you are reminded of that reality, like you said, you're living then in light of his return of eternity.

[B]

You know, it's crazy because I think about all these things that have gone on with it and, like, how God's used it. And I go, what in the world? But at the end of the day, it's just about him wanting his people to cry out for him to come. But I even go back over 20 years ago, I'm in this bedroom, 3 o' clock in the morning. Now, this didn't happen. But imagine, okay, Jesus is like, Stephen, in 20 some odd years, you're going to write your story down. And the guy whose book you're reading in this bed, Lee Strobel, he's going to write the foreword to your book, and I'm going to use you to write a song that is going to cause my church to long for me to return. I just wanted to be sober. I just wanted to be okay and my life not fall apart. What is God doing with people? And what is does. I mean, it's like, that's an incredible thought. I'm gonna blink and be in his presence. We're gonna blink and be in his presence, and nobody's gonna go, oh, this is Stephen. He wrote the song Come Jesus, Come.

[C]

This is.

[B]

Blah, blah, blah. They want a Grammy. Nobody's gonna do that. Everybody's gonna go, oh, my gosh, Jesus, yes.

[A]

Fall down at a speed.

[B]

I was like, why did I care what anybody thought? More than you? And I in a million years cannot believe that you used my life the way you did when I shouldn't even be alive. Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

That's an incredible.

[B]

That's real restoration. That is kingdom restoration. That is not just a here's a self help book. No, this is what Jesus does. It's wild.

[A]

That's an incredible thought. And it's one that when we look back on God's providence and how he uses these moments, we could have never written these stories. Like, these are supernaturally written stories. And to see the song. So Come, Jesus, come.

[B]

I'm sorry, it's the same for you. Like, God's using your story. God's using you in the same way. And you'll, you know, everybody looks back and goes, what? Yeah. Why? What is going on?

[C]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There's a reason. You know, there are hit songs or books that explode, and for whatever reason, they've nailed the algorithm of what people like. But then you get these pieces of art or this literary work that it just resonates so deeply and it explodes. And like, to see. Come, Jesus, come. 100 million plays to have you won Grant the Dove? Obviously, Cece won the Grammy, but you won song of the year, Gospel Song of the year with the Doves last year.

[B]

There you go. And I only ordered the dove. So my wife is a songwriter on Come Jesus, Come.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She is not like a songwriter. She's written two songs with me, so she likes to say half my catalog is Dove winning songs. She's like, not the kind of person. Like, she's just like, not a. She's just her mom and a. She's amazing. Yeah. And so I only ordered the Dove for her. So I've got like, her dove coming. I'm gonna be like, eh, this will air after she gets it. But anyways, I love it.

[A]

But there's amazing, but there's make her

[B]

look like a real narcissist.

[C]

She'll be like, put it down. Put it like this.

[A]

But it's because there's these pieces that come along, you go, oh, I get that. Like, you think about that, bro. You have the closing words of scripture are not insignificant. And yet how often are we praying for the Lord to end it? We're so consumed with the here and now. Right. But to go, Lord Jesus, I feel

[B]

like what I've got going on here is a pretty big deal. Maybe you could just wait Jesus to come back till we get back.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Whatever it is we're doing, it's crazy the way we think like that about

[C]

stuff, a thousand percent.

[B]

But you know, I'll say this, this is how big of a deal the return of Jesus is. Okay, ready? We see on top of churches everywhere, crosses and the cross, Right. Thank you, Jesus for the cross, by the way. It's the blood. It's amazing. But in the Bible, it references and mentions the cross 28 times, which is a lot. Thank you, Jesus for that. But it references and mentions the return of Jesus 318 times. That is the most talked about thing in the New Testament, if you pay attention. It is crazy how many things we take out of context. That is all wrapped around the disciples longing to see their friend again. Like their friend, like they knew him and they wanted to see him again. And there's a reason why. Paul says in Philippians 3, 20, he says, we are not citizens of this earth, but this world, but we are citizens in heaven and we eagerly, eagerly anticipate the return of our Lord. That doesn't make us just sit down here and go, okay, I'm ready to go. No, it makes us go, wow. Everything I'm doing here is so important. Everyone I meet is so important. It's wild. Yeah, yeah, Incredible.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

Stephen, this book and your story

[B]

makes

[A]

me think of Romans 2:4. The kindness of God is meant to lead you to repentance. Like it's God's kindness that draws us. And your story is a story of Jesus kindness. Thank you for hanging out with us.

[B]

Yeah. This is so fun.

[C]

For sure.

[A]

This is a blessing. I mean, it's a blessing to us. But I'm so excited for everyone who hears this, who is familiar with your story, or if they aren't, get radically restored, Go listen to Come Jesus, come put it on repeat. Steven, you're the man, bro. Thank you for sharing your story so openly and sharing.

[B]

I love how you just said get radically restored. It's not just about the book, but, like, literally, get radically restored.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. And I need you to sign this, too. For me to sign this?

[B]

Yeah, I'll sign.

[C]

For our daughter, Felicity.

[B]

I'll sign.

[C]

Me, too, though, because she loves your song about. And so, unfortunately, she's not here today. Otherwise, I, you know, she would love to meet you, so.

[B]

Oh, that's great.

[C]

Silence before you leave.

[A]

You're the man.

[B]

Thanks, guys.

[A]

Thanks for hanging out.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Bless you.