Inside the Secret World of the Hutterites

Summary

The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast Episode: Inside the Secret World of the Hutterites (May 20, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this captivating episode, Jinger and Jeremy Vuolo welcome their friend Michael Wirtz, who shares his incredible story of growing up in – and eventually escaping from – a Hutterite colony in South Dakota. The discussion delves into the Hutterite community’s complex mix of faith, tradition, cultural control, and the challenges of breaking free to embrace a new spiritual life. Michael offers a firsthand account of the secretive, tightly knit, and often misunderstood world of the Hutterites, revealing both its beautiful simplicity and its suffocating legalism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to the Hutterites

• Historical Roots & Structure

  • Hutterites are a communal Anabaptist group tracing their roots to the Reformation and the Anabaptist movement with Zwingli. Their migration journey included fleeing persecution, time in Ukraine, and eventual settlement in South Dakota and Canada. (04:52–06:25)
  • There are three main groups: Darius Light, Leah Light, and Shmita Light—the differences are often visible in dress and practice. (03:48–04:45)
  • Language is central: they speak a unique low German dialect—a spoken-only language—alongside High German and English. (04:45–06:25, 14:37–15:47)

• Community Life

  • Colonies are highly agricultural and self-sufficient, making their own clothes, growing food, and preserving traditions through strict cultural roles. (08:24–10:00)
  • The average colony contains about 75–150 people, roughly 25 families, spanning multiple generations. (20:51)

2. Authority, Unity, and Control

• Leadership Structure

  • Each colony has one or two “preachers,” or “boss men,” who control both spiritual and material resources—permission is required even for dentist appointments. (01:00–01:19, 12:15–13:35)
  • Leadership and voting are restricted to baptized men; women hold no decision-making power. The community accountant (“householder”) is always male. (12:31)

• Enforced Communalism

  • All money is pooled; no personal bank accounts exist. Even pocketed clothing is regulated to prevent hidden money—removing back pockets from men’s pants became symbolic. (01:21–01:43, 29:32–30:02)
  • Economic “side hustles” are kept secret from leadership, feeding an atmosphere of hiddenness and hypocrisy. (30:02–32:17)

  “Nobody has their own bank account. There’s only one, really. And one person controls the inflow and the outflow.”
  —Michael Wirtz (01:00)

  “At least in my colony, you couldn’t even have back pockets because that was associated with carrying your wallet.”
  —Michael Wirtz (01:21)

3. Tradition, Faith, and Legalism

• Religious Life & Schooling

  • Education is conducted in the colony, initially by hired teachers and then by a “lera” (schoolteacher), always a baptized man. Bible verses and German hymns are memorized, with a strong emphasis on a cappella singing—musical instruments are generally forbidden, though secretly practiced by some families. (17:30–19:54)
  • Days are highly structured: communal meals, divided by gender and age, followed by rigorous spiritual and work routines. (20:05–20:48)

• External Religion and Hidden Struggles

  • The community’s focus on unity crowded out the transformative message of the gospel, leading to a rigid, performative religious culture where open discussion of doubts or theology was discouraged or hidden. (06:54–07:22, 19:54–20:05)

  “What ruled the day, as long as nobody found out, you could kind of do whatever you want. …That's obviously just rife with hypocrisy.” —Michael Wirtz (19:41)

4. Cultural Isolation vs. the Outside World

• Relationship with Outsiders

  • Outsiders are referred to as “English Alight” (i.e., English people), regardless of their actual language. (14:05)
  • Some contact with modernity exists—colony members may have vehicles, restricted internet, and computers for work. Still, cultural values sharply differentiate Hutterites from non-members. (27:32–28:36)

• Colony Politics and Splits

  • Colonies occasionally split when they become too large, dividing assets and families. Politics, nepotism, and favoritism play significant roles in determining someone's standing or opportunity in the community. (24:16–26:05)

  “Colony politics are very real... If you were on the right side, if you had the right bloodline ... things would go well for you.” —Michael Wirtz (25:03–25:13)

5. Spiritual Disillusionment and Escape

• Questioning & Secret Spiritual Growth

  • Michael’s longing for true assurance of salvation led him to clandestinely access Christian radio, notably discovering teaching from Chuck Swindoll and others, which planted the seeds for his conversion. (41:04–46:57)
  • The system discouraged questioning, but a growing “movement” of young people started to seek outside influences. Michael’s spiritual hunger led to clandestine Bible study and eventually a personal encounter with the gospel.

  “What became the tipping point...I had my own private access to radio...they just shared the gospel each and every day. …I was so hungry for what I wasn't getting in the colony.”
  —Michael Wirtz (43:52–45:25)

• Leaving the Colony

  • Michael’s preparation involved securing a job, a home with his sister, and a secret escape at night—symbolic of leaving “Egypt.” He chose an in-person farewell with family instead of the typical runaway letter, reflecting maturity and care. (52:44–58:34)

  “This was April 30, 2001. ... My signal to him was that I'd have a flashlight and I would flash it on and off, and then he'd know it's me coming through the field. It was an alfalfa field at the time.” —Michael Wirtz (52:48–55:01)

6. Life on the Outside: Healing and New Beginnings

• Adjusting to Freedom and Faith

  • After escaping, Michael was welcomed by his sister and her husband and quickly became part of a gospel-believing church community. He later attended seminary, married, and now has two daughters, serving in ministry and hospitality at his church. (58:50–61:08)

  “Today I serve at my church... and I feel like the richest man alive because I have two beautiful little girls... Life is so good in Jesus.”
  —Michael Wirtz (58:50–61:08)

• Lingering Bonds and Ongoing Care

  • Despite leaving, Michael maintains care for his mother and prays for family members still in the colony, painfully aware of the emotional and spiritual complexities involved. (61:36–62:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On community control:
  “They're not just a herald of God's word... They also control everything. So boss man is actually way more appropriate.”
  —Michael Wirtz (13:21–13:35)

• On hypocrisy:
  “As long as nobody knew about it, he's okay. And that's how you would classify a lot of things...you would keep your money on the side, like, side hustles. ...That's how you would be able to afford some of those things.”
  —Michael Wirtz (31:23–32:17)

• On music and secrecy:
  “My dad was okay with us having instruments… we would just keep the windows closed… only the people that we knew could be trusted … There was this undercurrent of knowing.”
  —Michael Wirtz (18:41–19:54)

• Spiritual realization:
  “I just wanted to be real before God because I couldn't fake it before him ... And here was the real truth that I heard—illegally, if you will.”
  —Michael Wirtz (43:03–45:25)

• On leaving:
  “I ran away in the middle of the night. And that's who I am today. To them, I'm one of the runaways.”
  —Michael Wirtz (58:06–58:34)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Michael begins describing colony leadership and permissions | | 03:23 | Explanation of “runaway” or “Wicklaufer” and internal colony terms | | 04:45 | Hutterite language and migration history | | 08:24 | Self-sufficiency, daily routines, and family life | | 12:15 | The householder/accountant office and male-only power | | 14:05 | “English Alight” – term for outsiders | | 17:30 | Education, language, and role of music | | 19:41 | Hypocrisy and hidden rule-breaking | | 20:51 | Colony demography and size | | 24:16 | Colony splits and internal politics | | 29:32 | Clothing restrictions and forbidden pockets | | 31:23 | Side-hustles and hidden earnings | | 33:27 | Parallels drawn to Bill Gothard’s fundamentalism | | 41:04 | Spiritual hunger, clandestine radio, and early faith journey | | 52:44 | The escape: April 30, 2001, planning & execution | | 58:50 | Life now: church, seminary, marriage, and ministry | | 61:36 | Care for family still inside and ongoing prayers |

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Final Thoughts & Tone

The conversation is honest and respectful. Michael shares with warmth and humility, while the hosts ask insightful questions connecting the Hutterite experience with broader themes of religious legalism, control, grace, and freedom. There’s a notable sense of empathy for those still inside such communities—and a celebration of the beauty and liberation found in the gospel.

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For listeners: This episode offers an eye-opening look into a rarely discussed community, challenging assumptions about faith, unity, and the human search for authentic spiritual life. Michael’s story is both sobering and deeply hopeful, resonating with anyone who’s wrestled with legalism, secrecy, or the courage to seek something more.

Transcript

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[Michael Wirtz]

Each colony has at least one or two preachers, we call them, that are kind of the boss. So everything goes through them. If you need to leave the colony to go to town for even just a dentist appointment, you have to ask permission. Nobody has their own bank account. There's only one, really. And one person controls the inflow and

[Ginger]

the outflow is that the preacher.

[Michael Wirtz]

Everybody eats together. The men on one side, the women on the other side. And you sit by age for the men. At least in my colony, you couldn't even have back pockets because that was associated with carrying your wallet.

[Jeremy]

So what, you couldn't have a pair of Levi's or what?

[Michael Wirtz]

You couldn't have a pair of Levi's. You could wear the Levi's, but you would have to take the pocket off. Take the pocket off. That's what my mom would have to do.

[Jeremy]

Take us to the night that you actually escaped.

[Michael Wirtz]

This was April 30, 2001.

[Jeremy]

In the studio today is our friend Michael Wirtz, and he has an incredible story. He grew up in the Hutterite community, and I'm just telling you, get prepared for your mind to be blown.

[Ginger]

It was actually super fascinating. There were a lot of things that he shared that we were really caught off guard by and found interesting. So I know you guys are going to love this episode. Let's jump right in.

[Jeremy]

What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. And this week, we have our good friend Michael Wirtz in the house. Michael, thanks for coming on.

[Michael Wirtz]

It's good to be here. Where do I look?

[Jeremy]

Actually, you. Look at us.

[Michael Wirtz]

At you.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Michael Wirtz]

Don't look over there.

[Jeremy]

And if you want to talk to the people, just look right in the camera.

[Ginger]

That's otherwise, you can just talk to us.

[Michael Wirtz]

Talk to you. That's what I felt like I needed to do, but I should have asked for you. I'm so sorry.

[Jeremy]

Oh, you're good, brother. We are excited because you've got a fascinating journey out of the Hutarite community.

[Michael Wirtz]

The Hutterite community.

[Jeremy]

That's right, the Hutterite community.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yes.

[Jeremy]

I remember. So we worked together years ago at the church, but we've always just kept in touch. We just see each other. We go to the same church for those listening. And I remember years ago, I don't remember where we were or what we were doing. But you shared your story with me,

[Michael Wirtz]

like the quick hallway version of the story.

[Jeremy]

Yes, but I've remembered it for years, and it was such a fascinating journey. So tell us a little bit, because you ended up. What you would say is you're an escape or a runaway.

[Michael Wirtz]

A runaway. An actual runaway or a wittklaufe in. Because we speak our own language. So Wicklaufer would be like this low German dialect. And that's the title that I have today, even, really.

[Jeremy]

Okay, so start us. Take us to the beginning, where you were born, this community. Because I'm imagining so many people haven't even heard of the Hutterite community. So take us back to the start and tell us a little bit about your upbringing.

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, yeah. So I grew up in South Dakota and the Hutterite phenomenon, if you want to call it that. There's tons of communities in South Dakota. They're very agricultural. There's also tons of communities in Canada. And then there's different flavors of Hutteritism. There's three different types, if you will. They call them leiter, which means people in German. And so there's Darius Light, there's Leah Light, and there's Shmita Light. And the main difference between them, there's like, these nuances of literally how the women dressed. So as you can tell, like, the way that we dressed was really important to them because it became the identity of the Hutterites. But when I was born, I knew none of that. We were just people that spoke our own language. I learned English when I was in grade school. When I turned five, I started learning it. Really? Yeah.

[Ginger]

And so you're saying you speak your own language, but there's German. It's from German descent, but it's like a dialect of German.

[Michael Wirtz]

Exactly. So they. They migrated from I believe they started as part of the. Going all the way back to the Reformation with Zwingli. You can dig all the way back there.

[Jeremy]

So their roots in the Anabaptist movement.

[Michael Wirtz]

Exactly, the Anabaptist movement. And they, they ran into a lot of issues. They were out by the church, by the official church in the Germanic area and they got pushed over to modern day Ukraine because they found asylum with Catherine the Great. So that's way back when. And then they ran into, I guess into a lot of hardship, like financial hardship. So they actually disbanded for like 40 years or so. And when they heard the promise of land and the opportunity of, of America, that pulled them around. In the 1850s when my ancestors kind of, they migrated from there through Ellis island and they settled in the Dakotas and they had a vision there to really make sure that their vision of unity was what's going to set them apart. So nothing's going to threaten that. So the community became really important. The way that they lived became really important. It became their identity. And even me reflecting back now as a believer, it's actually what to the detriment of good theology and scripture and the gospel and the Bible. Because all that was part of their background as reformers. Like they actually had rediscovered the centrality of scripture. They rediscovered the truth and the beauty of the gospel. And so a lot of them actually believed that. So like their roots were really good and sound and you would even argue based, like foundationally based, but because unity became the central focus for them and if you pull that thread, you'll see how it becomes really dangerous. Interesting. Yeah.

[Jeremy]

I think there's going to be themes because I know very little about them, but there's going to be themes that are consistent with other cults or. I don't want to ask you about that, but other groups where they're trying to maintain unity and so they exercise control even at the sacrifice of other good things. Like you're saying in this part, like even the Bible is sacrificed at points or certain important doctrines in order to maintain unity, which quickly becomes maintaining control.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yes. Yeah. And so like me growing up, I never knew that this is me reflecting back. It's kind of like the age old 2020 vision. It becomes clear as you reflect back. But living in it, I had no idea. So like I was discovering these things as I guess as the Lord was revealing it at the right time to bring me to himself in the cont. In that context. But yeah, but they. Where was I? I'm sorry, I lost my thought you

[Jeremy]

were talking about the community and how they came over. I think it's fascinating. We forget, like America's big and we forget there are these communities within our American culture, like the Amish, who have just maintained their own, like anonymity and own unique like language and people group. And they're amongst us, but we don't see them. And so, you know, out of sight, out of mind. But the Hutterites are existent and continue to this day with this own unique culture and language within.

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh yeah, like they, like I mentioned earlier, they have their own dress code. So so like me growing up and they make everything themselves. So they're very self sufficient. Like my mom and my sisters, I grew up in a family. I was number eight of nine and I had six sisters. So small family, small family. Christmas time was awesome, actually. Mealtimes are awesome. You had to always fight for your second helping and you become very sufficient there too. But you grow up there and you're very self sufficient. So my mom and my sisters would always make our clothes. They would keep our house clean. They would, they would cook their own food, they would have their own garden, they would do tons of canning or getting ready for the winter. And there's a lot of things that are really beautiful about that life and very simple. And everybody had their place and their role. Like the men usually worked in the field and the ladies would take care of the home and they'd make sure that meals were provided. So they were very much role driven. And there was even a structure. Like usually each colony has at least one or two preachers, we call them, that are kind of the boss. So everything goes through them. If you need to leave the colony to go to town for even just a dentist appointment, you have to ask permission, really, because. And it kind of makes sense in that economy, right, where everything is shared. That's one key feature. Nobody has their own bank account. There's only one, really. And one person controls the inflow and the outflow.

[Ginger]

Is that the preacher? We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about poncho.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

Oh, constantly.

[Ginger]

It's actually, it's something that you've been able to gift to people too.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about Cure.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

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[Michael Wirtz]

Now back to the episode that is a specific office. It's usually the English version, is called a householder. But he's really the accountant of the community and he controls the purse strings, if you will. But it's supervised by.

[Jeremy]

Is it always a man?

[Michael Wirtz]

It's always a man. So the way that things work as part of their roles is only the baptized men have a Vote. They have a vote, a voice in the colony affairs. And then only the men hold those types of offices, whether it's accountant or field manager or field officer, if you will. He has oversight of all the agriculture. And then there's usually a second preacher who's there to help, like an associate pastor equivalent for us, but he's the assistant, so he fills in whenever. The eldest pastor. I shouldn't call him the eldest preacher. The boss would be incapacitating.

[Jeremy]

Why don't you want to say pastor?

[Michael Wirtz]

I don't know, because I have a particular understanding of pastor.

[Jeremy]

I think they haven't earned that title because of their.

[Michael Wirtz]

It's just very different. I feel like I need a new category. Because they're not just a herald of God's word, which is what a pastor is, and a shepherd of God's people. They also control everything.

[Jeremy]

They're the boss.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, they're the boss. So boss man is actually way more appropriate. And. And then everybody else just does what the boss does.

[Ginger]

Okay, so I have a question then.

[Jeremy]

I have about 40 questions.

[Ginger]

I mean, I have a lot of questions.

[Michael Wirtz]

You have no idea how many cans of worms I just opened up, like,

[Ginger]

around the money issue. I'm just thinking, wow, like, are. Are a lot of them pretty wealthy because of, like, are they selling stuff to, say, the outsiders? I don't know what you would call people outside, like, the Amish one. Yeah.

[Michael Wirtz]

All English alight.

[Ginger]

Okay.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah. Because we speak English, and so we just call them. Oh, those are English Alight. It doesn't matter what language you speak English alight.

[Jeremy]

Is that a. What's alight?

[Michael Wirtz]

Light is just people in German. So English A light. So it's English people.

[Jeremy]

Is it like, English A, L, E, I, T. Like, how would you, like, spell that out?

[Michael Wirtz]

So English would be E, N, G, L, I, S, H. Sorry.

[Jeremy]

For the spelling bee here.

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, man, I. I don't know, because it's actually not a written language. That's the weird part.

[Jeremy]

Well, what, you're just opening another can of worms?

[Michael Wirtz]

What do you mean it's not a written language? So we grew up speaking low German, which is just a spoken dialect of German that originated from the Austrian Tyrol region of the then Ottoman Empire when they migrated to the Ukraine. You're going way back. I know. I'm telling you, like, it's incredible. It's historic. Like the. So I grew up speaking that language, but it's not written. So Once you turn 5, then you start going to German school and English school. And in German school, You learn how to read and write and memorize German. So you learn the German script, the Alphabet, so you can. And that's what's known as High German, or better today you would call it standard German. Like what would people would speak on TV or learning reading the history books, like the academic German. So it's a little bit more understood and a little bit more universal than our dialect. But I would speak to a modern German speaker today. They can still understand my dialect, which always really surprises me because I didn't realize that.

[Jeremy]

Can you say a few things?

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, man. My German actually has kind of suffered. So Boskini is so. It wasn't. I'm a little bit at a loss now. My German has left me a little bit. And so it's funny when I try to say something in German to like my mom, because I'll still go visit.

[Jeremy]

Sure.

[Michael Wirtz]

I've lost the touch.

[Jeremy]

She just looks at you with that

[Ginger]

look of you chasing me. It's okay, you can say whatever.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

I think most of our listeners would be like, wow.

[Michael Wirtz]

But then you're gonna get a few

[Jeremy]

comments and going, he actually mispronounced.

[Michael Wirtz]

He's lost it. Yeah, he's lost.

[Ginger]

Interesting.

[Michael Wirtz]

So, like, my mom would look at me as kind of funny and. And rightly so, because I. I've lost a little bit of that. And so I speak this version where it's like English and German together. But as you spend time, it comes back.

[Jeremy]

But it's like when Ginger goes back to Arkansas and then all of a sudden the next three weeks, just like that, it's y', all this, y', all, and do what?

[Ginger]

I definitely fall into that. I don't say, do what, do what? That was the one I can't get to.

[Michael Wirtz]

I don't know what that means.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, that's a big thing. Hey, you gotta. When I go to Arkansas or Oklahoma, everybody there, if they don't hear you, instead of saying, excuse me or what's that? They go, do what do I. Oh, do what?

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, I might have to add that.

[Ginger]

That's okay. I have a question though, about the school. So you said that at 5, I mean, kids are gonna be educated in English and in high German, but is this in like a one room schoolhouse? Like, how many people are in your community? And is this outside education or is it all within your Hutterite community?

[Michael Wirtz]

It used to be private. It used to be a private school where we would hire our own teacher that would take us through the basic curriculum, like the classical education, arithmetic, reading, writing, Art, all those different things. And my teacher was incredible. She's since passed away, but she took us under her wing, and she always introduced us to all kinds of things. But she was hired by the colony, and they would pay for her salary for the 9, 10. So they would follow the academic school year. And then added to that, there'd be somebody that's elected us to the office of lera, or school teacher. A man who's baptized. The man who's baptized. That's very important for them, who would be commissioned to teach the children. And that ranges anywhere from, like, memorizing Bible verses, memorizing German songs, because that's. Singing is a really key factor for the colony. It's like, very much part of colony life where you sing together and you sing a cappella, because there's.

[Ginger]

I was wondering if the musical instruments are.

[Michael Wirtz]

No music. Musical instruments were essentially. I guess they were deemed, as I was gonna say outlawed, but they were basically decommissioned. And my family. I hope I'm not getting anybody in trouble, but my family, my dad was okay with us having instruments. And so some of my siblings actually learned the guitar, but we'd have to keep it secret. And we would just keep the windows closed. And whenever we would gather and we would sing. So to make sure that nobody would find out, and only the people that we knew could be trusted with that information were invited. So there was kind of like this. This undercurrent of knowing. And I guess one way to say it is a lot of times with such strict rules and structure, what kind of rule the day, as long as nobody found out, you could kind of do whatever you want. So with that, I mean, it goes into all kinds of life where if you just keep it hidden, then you can do whatever you want. And so that's obviously just rife of hypocrisy.

[Jeremy]

And that's classic external religion. Classic just focused on what people can see, what behaviors. But it's not after true transformation of the heart.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah. And so, like, they had. They were very religious, so we were learning Bible verses. We were learning songs that when you read them and you understood them. Now, when I read them, I understand them. They're incredibly rich. Theologically. They're straight out of Luther. Like, he actually wrote a lot of those songs when he got converted. So theologically, incredibly sound. Right. And they would go to church every day. So, like, every day, their day is super structured for the adults and the children, too, once you turn 5, but below 5, it's not as structured. So, like, at 7am is breakfast. And you got to show up for the whole.

[Ginger]

Does everybody eat together?

[Michael Wirtz]

Everybody eats together. The men on one side, the women on the other side. And you sit by age.

[Jeremy]

So how many people are in this community?

[Ginger]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michael Wirtz]

Generally the community runs from 75 to maybe 150 people, which is usually about 25 families old and young because it's very generational.

[Ginger]

We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about Momentum.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

And it actually tastes good. That's the other thing. We've had plenty of healthy shakes with good ingredients. And sometimes I get on that train for a while, but I just, I got to hop off because I'm like, I can't keep drinking this or I can't keep eating that. Momentum is delicious. And so I actually look forward to drinking it. Honestly, Momentum was one of those things. We didn't realize that we needed it until we got into it. And we absolutely love it. So here's what you need to do. Go to momentumshake.com momentum m o m e n t u m shake.com ginger and simplify your supplement intake. Get Momentum today and they'll send you a free, free welcome kit and travel collection. We got that. It's a $70 value. It's great, it looks good, it's robust. You'll love it. That'll get you started. Live longer, live better with momentum. Go to momentumshake.com ginger okay, pocket hose is the number one expandable hose in the world. And let me just tell you, like any guy in his mid-30s who's a homeowner or just loves, you know, caring for a lawn. I've had some experiences with pocket horses, with hoses.

[Ginger]

Oh, yeah, those water hoses that you take all the way across the yard and they get, they get caught on things and then you end up forgetting it's there and they fall apart. They crack.

[Jeremy]

I still have a hose that I bought from Home depot. I thought it was this really cool gadget. I literally didn't use it one time and I've probably had it for four years. Pocket hose. I love this thing.

[Ginger]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

It retracts.

[Jeremy]

Retracts is the word when you turn the water off. It's great. It's not an eyesore. It wraps up easily. What do you want me to say about a hose? It's fun to use.

[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

Now back to the episode.

[Michael Wirtz]

And then what they do is they, they're very agricultural. So there'll be a colony that is kind of reaching its capacity. People wise. Because you can only sustain a community at a certain level and they understand that where getting, it's getting too big, it's getting too crowded, you need too many assets to manage. So they'll just split off, divide the assets, buy another colony somewhere else, and then basically plant a new colony.

[Jeremy]

Do you have a choice if you're going to be a part of that or not?

[Michael Wirtz]

It depends. So like you, it depends on how the leaders of the colony decide to split. There's a few different ways they do it by lot. They do it by. Sometimes you can kind of like tag yourself to another family member, another member, another brother, because they divide it by how many men are baptized and what their skill set is. So to make sure that at least because they're essentially sharing the load of manufacturing, carpentry, livestock, even depending on what the focus of the new colony is. So they really try to make sure that it's a fair transition. But obviously with that there's a lot of room for error and a lot of human involvement. A lot of times money's the water and in the colony. Me growing up there too. Like politics, like the colony politics are very real. And we can totally go into that. But it was really like if you were on the right side, if you had the right bloodline, if you were connected to the right family, then things would go well for you. If you were not, then things wouldn't if you were. And so it all depends on what your relationship is to the 1%.

[Jeremy]

What does it look like for things not to go well for you?

[Michael Wirtz]

Well, my. My dad. This gets where. A little personal. My dad, was he. When he joined the colony? No, when he moved to the colony I grew up in. It's called Sunset Colony. Our mother colony was Glendale Colony. And we moved to Sunset. My mom and my dad, they got married, they had children there. And then they decided to. Which I thought was always kind of odd. My dad decided to connect with the preacher that I grew up with. His name is Joshua Preacher Josh. So he decided to connect himself to that. And somehow he ended up at Sunset. And I don't quite understand it because all my aunts and uncles stayed in Glendale on both sides of my. Of my mom and my dad. And then when that mother colony split again, then all my dad's siblings went to the new colony, but he didn't stick together with his family, which I thought was strange.

[Ginger]

That is odd.

[Michael Wirtz]

And I've tried to pull that string, but I haven't been able to find things out.

[Ginger]

How far away are these colonies though? Are they like.

[Michael Wirtz]

They could be really far apart. Neighbors like 12 miles away. Just enough so that there's land. Or they could be and like Glendale and sunset were like 90 minutes away, which felt like forever when I had to go visit grandma.

[Ginger]

Do you guys drive?

[Jeremy]

Yeah, I was gonna.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, we drive everywhere. Yeah. They would have the colony vehicles that you could go visit family in other colonies and make it a weekend too.

[Jeremy]

So it's not like. Do you have a computer, Internet, tv?

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, yeah. So like we. Internet is only designated for the job that you have. So if you have a job that requires it, you would have Internet, computer, the same. So like for example, my brother in law used to be in charge of milking cows or they've actually done away with that herd. But he needed it for his work, to keep record and to connect with vendors to sell the milk to the market. And I don't know the ins and outs of everything he had to do, but he had a computer with Internet so he could actually do all that and email and that sort of thing, but it was actually relegated just to his uncle or his office, his job that was assigned to him by the committee that runs the church.

[Jeremy]

And boss man determines, like, okay, Frederick, you get a computer.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah. So it's bossman plus all the elders of the colony. You would call them elder equivalent.

[Ginger]

Yeah, well, I'm kind of curious with that too, because, like, the instruments. How did you guys get instruments if you have a community? Like, money's all together there.

[Jeremy]

Oh, yeah.

[Ginger]

How in the world did you get instruments?

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, there's a whole subculture of how you. So nobody has. Nobody's supposed to have, like a wallet when you and I leave your house. Phone, keys, wallet. Like, that's like the rule of thumb, right? When you're leaving your house, you don't have any of that. Well, you have your phone. They have phones now. But me growing up, you didn't have a cell phone because it wasn't quite as prevalent. But like a wallet you're not allowed to have. You would have a driver's license. Yes, but not a personal stash. So they would even go as far as for the men. At least in my colony, you couldn't even have back pockets because that was associated with carrying your wallet.

[Jeremy]

So you couldn't have a pair of Levi's or what?

[Michael Wirtz]

You couldn't have pair of Levi's. You'd have to. You could wear the Levi's, but you would have to take the pocket off. Take the pocket off. That's what my mom would have to do.

[Ginger]

And then stitch the pockets in the front to not have a pocket.

[Michael Wirtz]

The pockets in the front are okay.

[Jeremy]

I thought your modesty. Standards and stuff. Clothing was.

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, you have no idea.

[Jeremy]

Well, give us an idea. This is. That's wild. The back pocket, brother.

[Ginger]

Is it like just money that they're holding on to that they just never turned in to the pocket?

[Michael Wirtz]

So, like, they would have these side products, these side hustles, if you will. So like my dad, he was actually an incredible mechanic. But. So that was his assigned office at the colony. Like, he was the mechanic. 700 transmissions. He would take it apart, he would put it together. I never understood he was the mechanic. I never was. It was not part of my genes.

[Jeremy]

When I got into the electric vehicle,

[Michael Wirtz]

bro, I know I do have a

[Ginger]

transmission out there that could need to be replaced.

[Michael Wirtz]

Again, he could take it apart and fix it for you, but. And then on the side, what he would do is he would. He would actually fix clocks and watches. And so he had. He. He was really There's a lot of things that I admire about my dad, and one of the things was he was really friendly to our neighbors who are not. Who are English Alight. And he would build connections and he'd build. He would. He would fix their clocks and they would always tip him. And he would not turn that money in. Technically, if he was a good hud, Right. According to the books, he should have turned it in, but because he didn't feel the need to, he just kept that.

[Jeremy]

What is his standing with the community?

[Michael Wirtz]

Well, he since passed away, so. He passed away. Oh, man. Over 20 years ago. Yeah. So he would just find ways of. Know where he needs to be obedient and where he doesn't have to be, and then be just okay with it because as long as nobody knew about it, he's okay. And that's how you would. That's how you would classify a lot of things. So my dad did that. I grew up that way, too, because it's part of how you think where I just need to make sure that these groups of people don't find out because they're a way to connect it to the boss. And that's how we could get into trouble. That's crazy. And so it was a lot of us versus them type of thing, but unspoken us versus them anyway. So it's. Yeah, that's wild. But. So, yeah, you would keep your. You would make your money on the side, like, side hustles. You would keep it, and that's how you would be able to afford some of those things.

[Ginger]

But would you have other families over to your house then? Or would you guys just have like a hidden thing under the floorboard? Your dad probably built.

[Jeremy]

He could build that.

[Ginger]

You know, like, do you put the instruments away?

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, everybody. So, like, you would live it. You would put it in your closet, and when people are over, they knew not to go into your. Your private area of your home. So it'd be a living space and. And you would just entertain guests there and you would. You would keep it hidden for the people, like behind a little bit of a lock.

[Jeremy]

And have you ever seen M. Night Shyamalan's the Village?

[Michael Wirtz]

I have. When I watched it, I'm like, oh, my goodness. I feel like he visited my colony because there were so many parallels to our experience where we had no idea. The only difference for us is that we knew we were living in the 20th century, 21st century, because we would leave the colony. We just had to ask permission. But the idea of it being really closed in from the outside world and knowing that it's us versus the English Allied and we needed to keep it that way because they don't know any better and we have the truth. That became like a really key identity point.

[Ginger]

That's fascinating. I was just thinking there's so many parallels there to even Bill Gothard's teaching that I grew up under, because he would kind of look at his. Even the outreach that we had. So we were on tv, we were around a lot of people who did not believe the same as us. But also it was like that, like, we are going to share with these people. They just don't know. They just don't have the truth yet. But as soon as they see it, you know, they'll be helped by us. And so having that perspective of like, just like, we're so in our own world and this is the safety there. There's a safety of, like, that community being so tight. You're going to stay there. So even if you go out for a little bit, you know, to share with them, then you're going to be fine.

[Jeremy]

Are non Hutterites going to hell?

[Michael Wirtz]

That's a tricky question. Because they believe in God's grace. So they think that the good English Allied could go to heaven, I guess. But it's really hard to get a clear answer. But a person like me who's left the colony or somebody like my sisters who they've gotten baptized and then they leave, they're essentially anathema, meaning, like, they are completely, from their view, completely apostate. For me, I'm just a lost vessel. And whenever I go back, they originally now not so much anymore, because it's been like 25 years for me since I've been gone. So for me, they just kind of have accepted the fact that I'm just a runaway and I'll never come back. But in the early years, guaranteed, every single time I'd have a conversation with older, kind of like, more established men in the community who try to essentially their version of evangelism to pull me back. And usually their evangelism was, you should come back to where God planted you because it's not an accident that you were born there. Which I actually completely agree. Because God always plants you where you're at because he wants to teach you and that's part of who you are. But, like, they'll use that as a come back and you shouldn't leave number two, come back so you can take care of your mom. Because that's a really key factor. Because it's my responsibility as her son to actually care for her and to care for the widows and the orphans. That becomes a really key identity point for them because the lifestyle does that. And so they use that as a

[Ginger]

pull, especially with you being one of the only. You have one other brother, one other brother who's living with all the sisters. So that would be where as a man, they probably put that on you.

[Michael Wirtz]

They do put it on me. So like they. And even that I understand now. I work through and I see the responsibility. Thankfully, my mom, I know is very well taken care of in her physical needs. I'm really concerned for her spiritually. She believes the Bible, so she believes the gospel and she believes in Jesus. But because of the lifestyle is so legalistically, I would even argue and push for oppressive that it erodes the confidence that you can have in Christ. And it's really sad. It's so heartbreaking because when we study scripture and we encounter Christ and we see him for who he is, we're set free from the darkness of our sin and the guilt that our sin and the weight, because it's all absorbed in Christ and we embrace him and we're actually freed. And it's not just a theological argument, it's an actually experiential argument. And we live in that freedom. And that's Paul's argument that we've been set free by him. But there's my mom and my family who are literally in bondage to that system. So it becomes dark very quickly. And so like issues of depression, issues of doubt, issues of assurance. If you're a true believer in Christ, all those, you never find an answer because the lifestyle is. It just crowds in and you're always struggling with am I good enough before God? And you're stuck.

[Jeremy]

There are the Hutterites, a cult

[Michael Wirtz]

from the outside looking in. They act like a cult because their truth is warped and their understanding of the gospel is not the gospel of scripture, even though they would argue that it is. It's not the facts of the scripture, of the way that scripture outlines it and how Jesus taught us. It's not about Christ. Their gospel is not about Christ. It's about living on the colony. And that's what saves you. And so it's a complete drift from their original moorings where they stand. I would actually qualify them more as an apostate church where they had true biblical doctrine that they had embraced that was part of their tradition. But their tradition won over and so they essentially reverted back to the church that they broke away from the Catholic Church, and they're just another version of that because they lost Christ and they lost the Gospel. How did you escape?

[Jeremy]

Because you've got a crazy story of literally escaping this community, as far as I remember it. Tell us that story.

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. It was my own Egypt moment. It really felt like that I had no parting waters, but it felt incredible. So I grew up believing all that, thinking this is where God planted me. This is where I was born. I didn't know anything else. But growing up, I. I personally always struggled with how can I be saved? How can I be good enough to be assured of my salvation? Because I would read the Bible, I would know what Easter's about, but I struggled with that. And then parts of it, you kind of get used to the struggle, too, because it's always there. And you. Excuse me. You realize that maybe that's just all that life is. But. But you kind of just. Are. You kind of coast along, right? But as I. As I got older, maybe, like, I started to hit, like, in my teen years and stuff like that, I started to question things more. And my. My dad's relationship with the boss, I started to see that more as it was really negative and how it affect my dad. And I'm like, dad, why don't you just do something about it? Why can't you rise up against the man, if you will? Because as a teenager, that's the answer to everything. Like, you just rise up and you fight for what you believe to be right. And I didn't quite understand where my dad was at because he effectively, in his mind, he knew his place, that he couldn't do anything about it. He just had to stomach it. But I didn't understand that. So what that did is it made me really bitter, and. And I just wanted the colony to fail. And then from there, I would grasp at anything that would help me prove my point that the colony is wrong. And I needed to escape because I was looking for justification to leave, because a lot of guys did.

[Jeremy]

How did they, like, the Amish, have rumsprunge, where they're given this time to go out in the world and then decide if they want to leave? Do you have an option? Or do you literally. Is it you're in or you're an escapee, you're you.

[Michael Wirtz]

They don't have a specific name for it like the Amish do, but they. They're just. It's a little bit softer. They just call us runaways. And then a lot of times, within Three years, the guys return, and sometimes the guys and girls. More guys leave than girls, but they kind of get tired of the world, and then they come back. That happens a lot. For me, it was. It was different because I wanted something more than the colony, and I wanted something. I didn't just want to leave because I wanted to go make money and see what the world offers. I wanted to prove that the colony was wrong and it was a wrong lifestyle, because I hated the fact how it affected my family and therefore how it affected me and the bitterness that I felt and the way that I felt. I wanted to. I just wanted to see it be wrong, whatever. So from my standpoint, while I was growing up, too, there was kind of a movement of people who. Of young people who were starting to question what our theology was. And they found different influences from, like, different preachers that were teaching scripture and preaching the gospel. And some of them actually became believers. And from those believers, I would connect to them. We'd have conversations with them. We'd even look at scripture with them. And they were trying to understand the Bible. But the way that the elders kept talking about them is that they called them heretics. And from my standpoint, I was like, where's the heresy? If you believe scripture and you embrace that, where's the heresy? Where's the heresy? Was my concern. But through that journey, I basically got introduced to the gospel through them. But what became so, like, this was me in the colony, like, maybe when I was, like, 16 or 17, when I read my journals now, I can kind of track the things that I was wrestling with. But what became, like, the tipping point, if you will, Part of me growing up was because I wasn't allowed to listen to radio, at least in public. I had my own private access to radio. And a lot of people think that I got introduced to Pastor John. Pastor John MacArthur then, but I didn't know him till college. So I found a Christian radio that was streaming out of Minnesota, and the guy daily just shared the gospel, what he learned about in scripture, and. And basically showed what the Christian life looks like, connecting back to what the Bible says each and every day. Like, it was a lifestyle. It was a lifestyle that you can live by. And here was an English elite doing what we were claiming to do. And I knew I was a hypocrite, and I knew all the people around me were hypocrites. They were just going through the motions. They're having the best naps during church time, and I was one of them. Yeah. And, like, you would go to church, you would rest, you would go through the motions and you would go to work and foul language would come out of your mouth. And there was no separation. These are brothers in the colony. So hypocrisy everywhere, and I was one of them. But I wanted. I didn't want to be a hypocrite. I wanted to be real before God because I couldn't fake it before him because I couldn't answer that question myself. Like, how do I stand? How do I stand before God? And he. This guy from. I think it's called Praise fm, this tiny radio. They just share the gospel each and every day in tidbits. And I remember, I don't know exactly when I became a believer, but I remember looking forward to the teaching time. I think it was Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Like he was on at 7:00pm and, and whenever I could, like, maybe like once a week, I had access where I could do it. I could get access to that lesson. Dude, I was so excited about it because it finally. And I didn't understand what this meant and what it was, but there was this connection and this draw that can't explain. Except now looking back, I knew it was the Holy Spirit, like pulling me towards the truth and towards Scripture and giving me exactly what I needed, what I was so hungry for, that I wasn't getting in the colony. Yes, I was going to church, but it was all kind of in High German that nobody really talked to. It was inaccessible to me and nobody cared that it was. It was because we're just going through the motions. And here was the real truth that I heard illegally, if you will. Like, I even went as far as. Because when I turned 15, they gave me a tractor because I started working in the field because that's what young guys do. And there's all kinds of stories of how dangerous I was with these tractors. I don't know how they entrust a 15 year old, but they did. We won't get into that, but one of the things that was part of it. So my second year into being in the field, they called me a stip boy. They bought a new tractor. It was an 8200 John Deere tractor. A beautiful tractor. It was a beautiful big cab. Of course there was a radio mounted in there. But because we're Hutterites, of course, we take it out and they leave a gaping hole there. So what I do is I cover the hole and I hide a lock and key. But inside that hole I mount my own stereo that I can Quickly take with me home. So I gotta keep it secret. Because, remember, as long as I keep it secret, I'm fine. I'm not breaking any rules until somebody finds out.

[Ginger]

Wow.

[Michael Wirtz]

So it was through that where I actually sometimes would. That the Lord used, where I could have access to really good teaching and listen to Praise FM for hours on end and actually really be introduced to the gospel and realize that I need to leave because I'm not in the true church.

[Ginger]

And at what point did you have a conversation with anybody in the community? As you're learning all this? Are you just. Is this more of an internal wrestling between you and God, between the hypocrisy and what you see as truth? Is there a point where you actually opened up and communicated any of that with people in the community?

[Michael Wirtz]

We had our group of friends that we could share with. Like, there were my. In my. In my peer group that we could. And then when I mentioned there's this kind of, like, this movement that started happening, so we'd have visitors that come, so we connect with them. And while all this is going on, there's members of my family that also leave the colony. They got married and left, and they became part of a good church. And so they had a really good influence on me so I could talk to them. And ultimately, that's how I ended up leaving was my connection with my older sisters and then being able to get plugged into their church. So, like, there were people in my life that I could connect to, but the struggle was still also private, because that's one of the features where you don't really talk about those issues. You don't talk about theology. You don't talk about what you're wrestling with. You don't talk about those things to people in the colony. You just. It's very. It's very personal.

[Jeremy]

That's one of the things which is weird, but that's one of the things that I think is so important for even our listeners. Like, we've talked about it. Ginger's written about it. In Bill Gothard's setting, there's not an openness, but I've even experienced it in some Christian settings where you feel this performative drive. So everything's gotta be great, especially if you're in leadership. And we've said this before. Like, there's one time a pastor friend of mine called me, and we were in the car, we were engaged. I said, hey, Mac, how you doing? He said, oh, it's been a tough week. And, like, went into some things and she was, like, shocked that it wasn't, I'm doing great. And there was this honesty. But a lot of people in religious contexts feel that now. There's also this drive to go the other extreme. Like, we're all just a mess, and so everything's a mess. You go, wait, hold on a second. Like, there can be resolve and God can care for you and take you to a place of peace where you're not just this constant mess. And yet that overreaction is coming from this constant pressure and manipulation to always present a front. And then you're actually really wrestling to stuff because life is hard and major decisions need to be made, and you have no outlet. You can't confess it to anybody. You can't share it with anybody. So you hide it and it just festers. Whether that's the anxiety, whether it might be sin, you're battling doubt, struggles, whatever. There's no platform in a lot of religious settings to just be real.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jeremy]

Because of the fear of recourse. And so it keeps you quiet, suppressing, which is going to explode, and it's either going to shut you down and shrivel you up or you're going to rebel against it at some point. But there's got to be an expression of the human struggle. And it just seems like for you, it was like this. No, it's all got to be internal and dealt with.

[Michael Wirtz]

Like, on the outside, I knew how to be a good little Hutterite, meaning, like, I knew exactly what to do. The formula worked on the outside because it was clear and it was not reinforced, like, explicitly, but it's kind of like that implicit lifestyle and expectation. And the main driving force is like, what is everybody else going to think? That became the defining factor for so much reality in the church. And if you can hide it, then you're fine. So that's where that hidden reality. And it's kind of crazy, like, now, even thinking back, I can't believe people live like that and they choose to, because there's, like, there's colonies where there's certain sin that is just really, like, you just list it off and it's just okay. And it's all kind of. All kinds of even gross sins that we talk about. The list that Paul talks about is actually there in the colony, and it's done by people who are supposed to be leaders in the colony. And you're just like, oh, my goodness, this is insane. But what's heartbreaking, too, is God's word is so accessible to people. Like, it's meant to be understood. What's confusing is the people. The people that are reading it and supposed to be the teachers are the ones that are confusing. They're the ones that shroud it. But God's word is clear.

[Jeremy]

That's so good.

[Michael Wirtz]

It's so good. Like I can actually be this guy who only has an 8th grade education because I never went to high school. I can go read the Bible in my own language. And for me it was English. I was more comfortable reading English. I can go read it and I can come to understand the gospel because it's a spiritual thing and it's meant to be like God designed it to be understood. It's when humans in there and this, for me it was this system that kind of like inserted itself so it shrouded the truth. And now people are thinking that they're saved and like 95% and it might even be generous. Like they don't know the gospel and they die in their sins thinking that they can rely upon God's grace, but they have nothing of Christ. And your heart just breaks.

[Jeremy]

So anyway, yeah, take us to the night that you actually escaped.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, so. Oh yes. So this would be. This was April 30, 2001. April 30, and I did a little bit of precursor work. So in order to leave, you need to have to. We live in a world that like you need to work. And so you needed a place to live, you needed work lined up and you needed a place to land on your feet. So that usually meant you had to rely upon a family that had already left. For me, it was easy. Like I had my sister and her husband, Mike and Clara, and they were, they had really three young boys at the time. My sister was pregnant with her fourth and they're like, yeah, we'll take her in. Take you in. So the way that it happened is like I was struggling with. I was already a believer and I was struggling with my place in the colony. Like I was struggling because I didn't have any discipleship. And I can say that now because I didn't know back then. I just felt like I couldn't grow and I was looking for growth. And so it came to a point as I literally prayed, lord, move in this place, so bring more Christians around me or take me out of this place. Place. And that was my simple prayer, dude. Literally three days later, my, my brother in law reaches out to me and says, michael, I heard you wanted to leave the colony. I'm like, I've never shared that with anyone. That's really. I was really surprised because that's kind of. That's a really private struggle that I had. And I don't know. Like, I. I think he just sensed it. So he was trying to see how I was doing. And he knew I was a believer. And he. Because he's intuitive. And so I'm like, dude, how did you know? I'm like, yes, that has been my prayer. And he's like, well, just so that you know, I've spoken with my boss and he has a place for you and you're able to stay with us until you get on your feet. I was blown away. I'm like, what do I do? I'm ready. Because this is directly an answer to prayer. And what normally happens when you leave, A guy will just leave a letter for his family and he leaves it there wherever, and then they find it once there, maybe the next day when he leaves. What I did, I wanted to have a conversation with my family because I didn't feel like it was the right way to do because it was more than just me going out into the world. I think it was the Lord actually leading me to that next step because it was an answer to prayer. And so I actually met with my mom and dad and my sisters, and they were heartbroken because they didn't want me to leave. But I explained it and they accepted it. And so I'm looking back, I'm so thankful that I did that, that I had the. I was only 18 at the time. And the fact that I did that is kind of a miracle, too, because. Anyway, so having my job lined up, a place to stay and also a means to leave, I really wanted to. Not just. Sometimes what you do, you just get picked up in broad daylight. You just time it right when you know nobody's going to be present and you just. They come pick you up. But I wanted to leave discreetly. So maybe too discreetly, thinking back. But I probably overthought it, which is. That's okay. So I had my new boss. He said he would come pick me up. So we timed it for 11pm to be picked up about a half a mile away. And my signal to him was that I'd have a flashlight and I would flash it on and off, and then he'd know it's me coming through the field. It was an alfalfa field at the time. Yeah. And so I was so discreet, dude. And it was overdone. It really was.

[Ginger]

Well, I guess because people may try to stop you or Talk you out of it, right? Is that part of it?

[Michael Wirtz]

That's part of it. And I didn't want the shame of leaving too. I think I just wanted my family to know and that's it. And then let the chips fall where they may. So, like, I don't know if it was. Yeah, they would. It would be that. But I'm not sure. I just overthought it. And I had the fear of manning me, so maybe that was that too, where I didn't know how I'd react if somebody tried to work me, work me to stay. Maybe they would talk. That might be it. Yeah.

[Ginger]

Talk you out of it?

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah, talk me out of it. And I didn't want that. So I'm like, no, this has to be in the COVID of darkness. So I did that. And I had. I had 20 bucks in my pocket. I had my black pants on with no back pockets because that's.

[Ginger]

You had nowhere to put your money.

[Michael Wirtz]

I had nowhere to put my money. I put in my front pocket. That's what we do.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Michael Wirtz]

It's so funny. I had a black T shirt on and a black bag, and so I was completely camouflaged and I walked out. He picked me up at 11, 11:30, and. And now it's so funny. Like, I will have even less now, but I would have nightmares that I actually went back. And because what you normally do once you leave, they usually send a delegation of usually your family members and maybe like another brother that's in the colony, they will come for the runaway to. To beckon him to come back after a few days when they've had their time to. To. To realize they can't adjust. And my dad did that. But it was pretty firm for me that I needed to stay. And, yeah, by then, anyway. Yeah, so that's what it was like. I was literally picked up in the middle of the night and I ran away. So I decided, you know what? I'm just going to embrace the meme. I'm going to be the runaway. And that's what I did. I ran away in the middle of the night. And that's who I am today. To them, I'm one of the runaways. Yeah.

[Jeremy]

And share with us just briefly as we close here, what does life look like for you today? Because now you have a beautiful family. You got married, you have two children, you serve in the church. Where's Michael at today?

[Michael Wirtz]

Oh, yes. So the Lord in his kindness. As soon as I left, I was able to be part of a bit of a church that believed the gospel. I had a boss that lived the gospel. His name is Lud, and I'd never seen that before. And as I reflect back on the Lord's faithful kindness all the way through, as soon as I left, it's just true today. So today where I serve is I'm at my church, and I was able to graduate from the seminary and then stay on at the church. And I help lead our events and hospitality team here at the church. And so we. I get to work with Jeremy when he throws his awesome events from the university, from the U. Go Mustangs. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And so, like, we help him, like, so we do, like, events for sister ministries, but, like, also weddings, memorials, like the normal church events as well. We just want to make sure they're excellent, the guests are well cared for, and then we also do conferences. So we make sure those are. Those are well put together and organized, and I get to play a part in that. And so the Lord also provided my bride. And I feel like, dude, I feel like the richest man alive because I have two beautiful little girls. They're my little princesses. And one of them is three, and the other one is six months, and they love each other, but they're all of three in six months. And so you can imagine what life is like at home. And my wife Amor, like, she's such a sweet. It's been so sweet to see her just grow as a mommy and be able to be alongside them. And just life is so sweet. God is so good. And it connects back to his wisdom, Being able to live it out in the context of a local church that loves the Lord, loves the church, loves the truth, and loves each other, bro. Like, it's. Life is so good in Jesus. And that's the part where growing up on the colony, all the way to being involved in our church, God is so good, and it's his wisdom, it's his beauty that I'm able to experience this side of heaven. I'm the richest man alive. That's my argument. Yeah.

[Ginger]

It's amazing.

[Jeremy]

What a story. Michael, thank you for sharing it with us. It's a fascinating world that you've come from, and I know it'll be fascinating to so many people, but also enlightening. And it's a beautiful story of God's grace. And you've been exemplary. I think that's been a big theme in how even Ginger has handled certain aspects of her journey. Wanting to be respectful and yet hold firmly to the truth. There's something really powerful and beautiful about that.

[Michael Wirtz]

Yeah. I do pray for. I pray for my family. My heart goes out to my family that believes the Scriptures, and they believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior, but yet they have all that baggage. And so if you can pray for them, I know there's more faithful, but there's a small remnant of believers that are on the colony still, and a lot of people don't believe. And that's the heartbreak that the Lord would work. Yeah.

[Jeremy]

Michael, thanks for hanging out.

[Michael Wirtz]

Absolutely. My pleasure.

[Jeremy]

And thank all of you for tuning in again. We will see you next week with another show. Take care.