← The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast
The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast
Jinger, Jessa, & Joy: Duggar Sisters on Miscarriage, Baby Loss, and Grieving with Faith
01:17:06
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- [00:00]
Ginger
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Jeremy
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Ginger
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- [00:06]
Jeremy
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- [00:11]
Ginger
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- [00:12]
Jeremy
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- [00:45]
Joy
We went in for our 20 week anatomy scan and gender reveal. I had actually talked to Mama and I was like, hey, I don't know. Like, I haven't felt the baby kick in a while. Like, I had, I just started feeling at 17 weeks, she put the Doppler on my belly and like right away, like her face just completely sunk.
- [01:05]
Ginger
There were people that would try to rationalize, like, oh, well, like somebody had said, like, oh well, God probably just wants you to focus on the babies that you have, you know, or, you know, like, maybe God's telling you this is like, it's time to be done.
- [01:19]
Jessa
No, today's episode, we have Ginger's sisters Jessa and Joy on as guests and it's gonna be a heavy episode. We talk about miscarriage, loss. They go through their journey of losing their little ones at different stages in their lives. But it's gonna be a powerful episode. Honestly, I think it might be the most powerful episode we've done that will really encourage and help so many.
- [01:43]
Jeremy
Yeah, it was super difficult to talk about a lot of those things, but we know that many of you have reached out and have said that you've experienced lot loss or miscarriage. And so in that we wanted to discuss this and my sisters were so gracious to sit down with us and to share their heart. And I think that this definitely is going to be an episode that resonates with many. So let's get into it.
- [02:13]
Jessa
What's going on, guys? We're back for another episode. The Ginger and Jeremy podcast.
- [02:17]
Joy
We are back.
- [02:18]
Jeremy
We're in Arkansas still. So today we have two of my sisters, Jessa and Joy, on the podcast with us, and, yeah, we're excited to have them on, and we're gonna be talking about a little bit of a heavier topic today. And before we get into that, though, we wanna, like, get a quick update on where they are in life right now. So, Jess, what's happening in your life right now?
- [02:46]
Ginger
Busy season. Five kiddos. The oldest three in school now. And so, yeah, just living life day by day, trying to keep our head above water, it seems like.
- [02:57]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [02:58]
Ginger
Yep. And a little one due at the end of July.
- [03:01]
Jeremy
So exciting. We cannot wait to meet this little one. It's amazing. Joy, what are you up to?
- [03:07]
Joy
It's definitely a busy season. I've got the three kids. Gunner just turned 2, which is crazy.
- [03:12]
Ginger
Crazy.
- [03:13]
Joy
Homeschooling the same. We're doing summer schedule now, but we've just been really busy with Austin's work and then just activities outside of that.
- [03:23]
Jeremy
Awesome.
- [03:23]
Jessa
That's incredible. Well, you guys are both returning guests to the podcast, so thanks for coming.
- [03:27]
Jeremy
Yes, welcome back.
- [03:28]
Ginger
Thanks for having us back on.
- [03:29]
Jeremy
Super fun.
- [03:30]
Jessa
And like Ginger said, we did want to get into a topic that I think. Well, I think would be really helpful for our listeners because each of you have experienced and walked through not only the joys of motherhood, but then also you've experienced losses and loss in motherhood, specifically with miscarriage. And it's such a prevalent thing that happens with women around the globe. I was just looking up some of the statistics on miscarriage, and it's like 15% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, but that's of those that they can track and recognize. So there's probably a lot more even before someone recognizes they're pregnant. So I thought, you know, as we think about your journeys. And then, Jessa, you were just saying in your church, you. You have loved ones who are walking through it. Obviously, we've all walked through it. But then there's people coming to my. Into my mind right now who are walking through it or have just recently. And so the three of you having such, I think, a really helpful perspective, like a theological grounding. You know, the three of you have your hopes set and rooted in Christ. You've walked through it together to some degree or other. And you've had a good community, like a church around you as you've gone through that. So I thought you have a lot to offer to speak to our audience collectively on this topic.
- [04:56]
Jeremy
Yeah. So we kind of wanted to just talk about those stories and share as much as you want to on this topic, because I know it's not easy to talk about at times. Like, there's. There's some of that where you feel like maybe if it was a little while back, it's not there. There's. It's. You have. Life has gone on as there are those seasons that slow down and there still is that pain when you remember that sweet loved one. But everyone else's lives around you continue to go on, and your own life does. But at the same time, there's still that memory and that loss that you've experienced and will always carry and remember.
- [05:36]
Jessa
And I think in that vein, a lot of women struggle with it silently because maybe they do feel like everybody's moved on, and then they don't want to be seen as well. You just won't let go, or you can't just get past this. And they don't want to keep bringing it up, how they're struggling. And so we want to kind of open the door in this conversation to working through that and to hear how each of you have worked through it in different ways as very. You have a lot of similarities, you know, your sisters, but then you have a lot of differences, too, in your personalities and life's trajectory and all that. So why don't we start with. And, I don't know, Ginger, if you want to start, or whoever would want to kick us off, but take us back to that moment when you first realized that something was wrong in your pregnancy and kind of bring us into that.
- [06:24]
Jeremy
And I think that, yeah, mine was at probably six and a half, seven weeks along. I just announced to the family we had a big gathering on Zoom because we were in la. And I was super excited because I was like, I'm going to share with the family that we're expecting number two. And right after we did this gender reveal, it was like, I mean, not gender reveal, like, this pregnancy announcement. We did, like, a whole gingerbread theme, and the gingerbread mom was, like, pregnant. It was super cute. Yes, I remember that. Yeah, it was super cute. And it was a special moment, like having all the family here that we were expecting. And then it quickly changed because later that night, I started having some complications, some spotting, and I realized I was just like, oh, it's probably fine. It's just because I know some people have that and we'll be fine. But for me, it wasn't. And it ended up that was the night when it kind of all turned into, like, just like, what's happening? Because I Didn't expect that to happen. And I think there's a certain level of, like, excitement that you feel and joy, and you just kind of think everything's going to be fine. Because I've never. You know, the other pregnancy was perfect, and I should be able to just be fine. And so with that, though, I think it was just. There was so much pain. And, like, you have some physical pain, but then at the same time, it's like, what's happening? And then the what ifs start to come into your mind. Like, is this going to be the last pregnancy I'm able to carry? Because just not knowing, you don't know what's happening. And so it's scary. And then I didn't have family close by. And so there was that. That side of, like, I feel like when I had Felicity, even though it was just my first, like, having my mom there was comforting, and not having anybody close by was something that I felt. Like how. Like, it just feels different. Cause I had Jer as my support. But you also kind of want your mom or sister there.
- [08:31]
Jessa
And it's like, I was there, too.
- [08:32]
Jeremy
Yeah. And it's something that. It's just hard. So I don't know, like, walking through that pain and then having to tell everyone the next day what was happening, I called mom immediately. Like, what do I do? Do I go to the hospital? And there was just so much pain and sadness wrapped around that. And following that miscarriage, I remember thinking, well, if I get pregnant again, is this going to just happen over and over? And there's fear that you face. And I think we want to get into that in a little bit. But that was my story of how early it was early on. And at the same time, there's such loss because you realize it's a sweet human life, that God's given you that gift of carrying the baby for however long it was. Felicity was so excited. We were so excited. Everyone was excited. And then you experienced loss. And so for me, it wasn't as. Maybe even as difficult or traumatic in the same way as others.
- [09:31]
Jessa
It was around eight weeks, would you say?
- [09:33]
Jeremy
It was probably. It was like seven. Seven weeks. And so with that, there's that side, I think, where a culture just often wants to excuse it as nothing and say it doesn't. It's not a baby. And they don't look at life as important at that stage. But I think that we realize as Christians that every life matters from the moment of conception. Every life is precious. And it is a gift and something that we are blessed to carry. And so anyhow, pivoting now to either one of you girls who ever wants to talk about your story and the loss, you know, and when in that moment that you experience the loss, like.
- [10:17]
Joy
I said, go ahead.
- [10:18]
Jeremy
Next. Yeah, we wanna take a break from this episode to tell you about every plate.
- [10:23]
Jessa
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- [10:37]
Jeremy
Oh yeah, you get restaurant style deliciousness delivered right to your door. And they have recipes like crispy Buffalo Ranch chicken and cheesy Mexican street corn hash. So those are just a few of the ones that I'm gonna mention now. But we love it because in the season of life we're in, we have little kids, there's a lot happening and it's just so nice to be able to get those ingredients to your door and you can make a meal very quickly.
- [11:04]
Jessa
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- [11:16]
Jeremy
Incredible.
- [11:17]
Jessa
A meal. Go to everyplate.com podcast and use code ginger j I n g e r199. That's ginger199. To apply that discount to get started. And it's applied as a discount on the first box. Limited time only. But you guys will want to take advantage of this offer. We want to tell you about Brooklyn Bedding. We've upgraded our mattress to Brooklyn Bedding and it really is an upgrade. It's been such a great change. Easy sleeping through the night. The most comfortable sleep. Like I've said before, it's actually changed our evening routine because if we try to watch a movie in bed, we're out after the first five minutes.
- [11:55]
Jeremy
Fall asleep because the bed is so comfortable.
- [11:57]
Jessa
If you want a bed that will make you fall asleep Fast, go to BrooklynBedding.com and you've gotta check these out.
- [12:03]
Jeremy
Brooklyn Bedding handcrafts every mattress in their Arizona factory. So no middlemen, no gimmicks, just top tier quality, honest pricing and real American craftsmanship for better night's sleep.
- [12:15]
Jessa
Yeah. And you have a 120 day trial. So if you don't like it, they'll return it. They'll come pick it up hassle free or they'll replace it.
- [12:23]
Jeremy
You're not going to want to return it, though, because I'm telling you, we got our bed, and now Jeremy's parents, they were in town visiting, and they want to try out our bed because they were. They heard so much about it.
- [12:34]
Jessa
They're literally laying down on our bed to try and figure out which one they want to get.
- [12:39]
Jeremy
We got to figure out what firmness, what we want. So, yeah, you guys need to go.
- [12:43]
Jessa
To BrooklynBetting.com and use our code, JJ. It's real simple. Just JJ for 30% off site wide. So your pick of the litter 30% off site wide. BrooklynBetting.com use our code JJ.
- [12:55]
Jeremy
Now back to the episode.
- [12:58]
Ginger
I experienced two different losses. And so my first was very early. I was, like, five weeks along, had just gotten a positive pregnancy test and hadn't told anybody. And Ben and I kind of had waited with some of our babies until we were out of the first trimester before telling people. And some of that was like, well, what if something went wrong? Or whatever. So we had traveled for a wedding, and it was right before the start of the wedding that I went to the bathroom, and there was just so much blood. And it was like. It was terrible. I mean, the timing, everything. Like, I came out, and I was just, like, devastated. I was crying. And then we're about to go into this wedding, and you feel like to some degree, you kind of have to pull it together because you've traveled and you're here, and, like, just practically, you have to, like, run to the drugstore and get some pads or whatever, like, just very. And. And then you're like, that's my baby. And you didn't get to say goodbye or whatever. And so it was hard. I think in some ways it was almost worse that we hadn't announced because people would say things unknowingly, like. Like asking, like, when are you gonna grow your family? Like, when are you gonna have another baby? Or something like that. And they don't know. And so I think to some degree, it's like, you know, you don't let those things get to you, because obviously, it was our choice to not. To not say that we were expecting beforehand. But then you don't really want to go into, like, oh, we were expecting and we lost a baby. So that was challenging anyway. But then with our. With our second loss, we were further, further along. But we did go ahead and announce, like, as soon as we got a positive pregnancy test, I think we kind of decided, like, you know what? It's better, like, even if Something does go wrong, people know, and people that are closest to you know, and you can have that. That support and people to be there in maybe a more meaningful way if they know what you're going through. And so that did kind of change my perspective on announcing earlier. But, yeah, with our second loss, things are going along pretty well. Up until, I would say I was about 12 weeks, and I hadn't had any signs or symptoms that anything was wrong. And then. But I. Like, in hindsight, it's like you look back and you see different things, and you're like, I should have known something was off because my. Like, I'm usually sick for the first trimester, and my morning sickness had tapered off earlier than normal. And then also, just, like, practical things, like, I was still wearing my regular jeans, and people were like. Like, I just had a friend tell me a few days before, like, you're so small, you don't even look pregnant. Whereas usually, like, by 12 weeks, I would have, like, a little pooch or have to, you know, start pulling out some of my maternity clothes or whatever. But I was just. I just thought, like, oh, well, I'm just, like, being really active and, like, eating really well. And, like, I just didn't. I chalked it up to that. But then, yeah, so I had called and scheduled my appointment for a gender reveal ultrasound when I was 14 weeks. We were, like, two weeks out from that. And then right after that, I had, like, the smallest amount of spotting. And so I'm googling, like, is this normal? Is this okay? And then that was it. Like, nothing else. And so I was like, oh, it's probably nothing. It's probably. I'm probably fine. I probably just overdid it or something. But then it just. I couldn't let it go. Like, I just. I had this, like, concern, like, this check in my heart, like, I should get this, like, looked into. And so I went ahead and called and made an appointment for an ultrasound the next day. And so we went in, Ben and I went in, and I suspected that something could be wrong. And sure enough, as soon as the ultrasound started, the lady said that the baby didn't have a heartbeat and had. And hadn't had a heartbeat for several weeks. So it was a missed miscarriage. Which means, like, you don't really have the signs and symptoms that something has gone wrong and your body hasn't really caught up. Because I was still feeling, like, a little bit nauseous or having some of those symptoms. But, yeah, so. But not just, like, full on like knowing this is a miscarriage. And so, yeah, that was really hard. There was like lots of different layers to that. Just like, no, like we made it to the second trimester. You're supposed to be safe once you get there. Like, that's, that's the safe zone. And then having gone through for me, what's the most difficult part of the pregnancy is that first trimester when I'm so fatigued and feel so bad and I'm so sick. And now I'm just getting to the part where it's like the easier part, you know, like the middle part. And then the baby's gone and there's no heartbeat and then having to make the decisions of what to do next. And there was a winter storm coming through town that weekend and we had to go to the doctor. And then we were there, like at the hospital for a while. And yeah, just all the, all of the emotions surrounding that. Plus, to make things worse, I forgot to cancel my gender reveal ultrasound. So then like two weeks later, they're, they're like calling me like, oh, are you just running behind for your appointment? And I'm like, oh, actually I need to cancel. And they're like, oh, you need to give 24 hours notice. Which was really, I mean, that's on me. I'm not blaming them, but it was just like so many different factors of, like, you're grieving that all over again. Like, oh, man. Like this would have been, you know, all the milestones and you know that probably more than anything, just being even further along and having gone through all that you went through, like grieving those things, you know, that would have been.
- [19:21]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [19:21]
Ginger
Thanks for sharing this.
- [19:25]
Jessa
We want to take a moment to talk to you guys about Herbs House Coffee.
- [19:28]
Jeremy
Yeah. I'm telling you guys, if you haven't tried Herbs House Coffee, I know it's tough to find the perfect coffee. It can be super confusing. And Herb's House is the solution for you.
- [19:40]
Jessa
Yeah. The coffee companies have been getting really pretentious and giving us all these complicated, like, tasting notes, things like pear skin and forest floor, and you're sitting there going, I just want a good cup of coffee. Herbs House has gotten to the bottom of it, actually. They're going to take the guesswork out of your daily routine with approachable, crowd pleasing blends and a simple online coffee quiz that you can take to help you discover what your favorite coffee is.
- [20:05]
Jeremy
You guys need to take that quiz. And the cool thing about Herb's House is that this company is family owned and they're from Dallas, Texas, and incredible people with a mission to deliver craft quality coffee that's accessible and approachable. Guys, we had it this morning. We have it every morning. We have family in town. I'm serving it to them this morning and they all love it.
- [20:25]
Jessa
All right, I've got a confession to make. I was downstairs reading my Bible. I got down before Ginger and I was going to go make coffee, but then I thought, now in the next five minutes, Ginger will be down and she'll make a cup. And you came down, you roasted some Herb's House, and then brought me a cup of coffee. And it was a little moment. I thought, man, that was sweet. But honestly, it was like the highlight of my morning.
- [20:45]
Jeremy
Aww, that's great.
- [20:47]
Jessa
They've actually developed a special blend, Shepherd's Blend, which supports causes that we're both passionate about, with 50% going to support ministries, doing work around the world. So Herbs House, they've really got it dialed in. They're not just serving coffee, they're serving a mission. So Herbs House is excited to extend the special offer to our podcast community. Only get 15% off your first three orders, plus a free gift when you sign up for monthly coffee box membership.
- [21:12]
Jeremy
Go to herbshousecoffee.com and build your coffee box. And use my code Ginger or Jeremy at checkout to claim this offer exclusively for our listeners of the podcast.
- [21:23]
Jessa
Yeah, that's code Gingeror Jeremy at checkout for 15% off your first three orders, plus a free gift with your monthly box from Herb's House Coffee. Okay, guys, you might notice if you're watching right now, that my hair is a mess. That's because I'm missing one of my favorite things. Not anymore. It's a hat. Look at this.
- [21:42]
Ginger
Wow.
- [21:42]
Jessa
I put on a hat.
- [21:43]
Ginger
Wow.
- [21:44]
Jessa
I love hats. But not only a hat. This hat is from Range Leather. And their leather products are incredible, and we want to tell you about them.
- [21:55]
Jeremy
Oh, yes, we do. American handmade leather bags and accessories. They're made in a workshop in Wyoming.
- [22:02]
Jessa
Every single piece is put together in this workshop. The quality control is incredible. So much so, they give you a lifetime guarantee. Look.
- [22:12]
Jeremy
That's insane.
- [22:13]
Jessa
Leather products have been, like, exploding recently, and so you don't know what's good, what's bad. I've gotten hats where I'm like, oh, that looks cool. Online. You get it. It's not. Range leather is legit. It's a lifetime guarantee. They're using real leather, high grade leather, and they're putting it on there by Hand. I mean, the shop is happening.
- [22:31]
Jeremy
Yeah. And they have collaborations for custom stamped leather accessories. And it's a Christian owned and run business. And it's amazing. I mean, a lot of our friends all rave about range leather.
- [22:42]
Jessa
In fact, this is a good ranchers hat. And good ranchers is doing a ton of products with range leather because it's just so high quality. Okay, so go to rangeleather.com, use code ginger J I N G R for 15% off. That's rangeleather.com use code ginger for 15% off.
- [22:59]
Jeremy
Those would make some great gifts.
- [23:00]
Jessa
Big time.
- [23:01]
Jeremy
All right, now back to the episode.
- [23:04]
Joy
So with our second. Our second pregnancy. So we had. We had waited a year to get pregnant after I had Gideon because I had had emergency C section. And so we were at the point where we were, like, very ready, very excited to have another one. And we found out we were pregnant. And it, like, everything, like, it was a great pregnancy. I felt great. And we went in at 10 weeks and got my first ultrasound. And baby just looked great. Like, I have the video still and I watch it a lot. Just kicking around little arms and legs. Heart rate was great. And then we went in for. We went in for our 20 week anatomy scan and gender reveal. We decided it was really last minute. We had went in, we were like, I had actually talked to mama and I was like, hey, I don't know. Like, I haven't felt the baby kick in a while. Like, I had just started feeling at 17 weeks, like 16 and a half, 17 fell on the baby kick. And I was like, I haven't felt anything really in a while. So I. I want to go just make sure everything's okay. And we're gonna do a gender reveal. Go ahead. And just Austin and I find out, like, I think that would be special because with Gideon, our first, we didn't find out till he was born. So I was really excited to go in and find out the gender this time around. And so we dropped off Gideon with my mom and then we went to the ultrasound and the. We sat down, she was getting all of our details, and she. She put the doppler on my belly and like, right away, like, her face just completely sunk. And she was like, I'm so sorry, but there's not a heartbeat. And yeah, just that, like, shock feeling of what. What's happening. Like, you just. That's not what I was expecting. I guess looking back, I did have kind of a gut feeling of something may not be right. But also, I'm Like, I don't want to over exaggerate. Like, I don't want to read into things. And it was like, I just remember feeling so numb leaving the ultrasound. And she, like, she went ahead and did all the measurements to see, like, how big baby was and how much amniotic fluid was. And so, like just sitting there knowing I'm getting ultrasound, like processing that the baby's not alive anymore, and just wondering, like, what does the roadhead look like? I was so scared. And I immediately called mom on the way home and told her what had happened. And she obviously was heartbroken because she had been through. You know, mom has been through loss before. And I just remember Austin and I driving home and we just were just. I don't know, I guess numb is the word. Just. I didn't know how to feel, what to feel. Just completely at a loss. And it was. It was a really hard. It was a really hard road. And so we went ahead and scheduled. It wasn't until a week later that we went into the hospital and delivered Annabelle there. And that was extremely hard, having to go through the whole delivery process. And I. I'm so thankful that I had mama there that had been through it before. I had. Jill was there, Carlin had flew into town, and I had a really good support team. But even with all of that, it was extremely difficult. And just your. Like you were saying, Ginger, your body, it doesn't even matter at what gestation, your body still thinks that you're pregnant. And so even if you're mentally struggling physically, your body is struggling because it's like, what is. It's wrecked your system. It's like, what's going on? And so even if you're six weeks, five weeks, your body still has all of those pregnancy hormones that are going through it. And so it takes a long time physically for your body to recover from that. Anyway, so we went and delivered, and then a week later, or I guess it was that. It was the couple days later when we got discharged, we had her burial and her little funeral ceremony. Thanks for sharing that, girls.
- [27:58]
Jeremy
I mean, that is, I think you describing those stories and just sharing. It's like, it's hard to go back and talk about those things because there's the pain that feels so raw when you're in those moments.
- [28:12]
Joy
And like.
- [28:15]
Jeremy
Yeah, it does take you back there. And just. I appreciate how you guys are willing.
- [28:20]
Joy
To open up and talk about it.
- [28:21]
Jeremy
Because I think there's so many of my friends who have been through loss even similar to you all And I think that when you're able to open up and talk about it, it can help. And at the same time, I want to get into, how did you cope with that? How did you process what happened? And, like, were there things that were helpful for those who maybe haven't walked through miscarriage? Were there things that were not helpful? What was. I mean, it can look different for each person because I remember, for me, in that season, it was crazy because I felt like I was still so new to my community. And that was one of the first things I remember was my friend Kenzie. She came over. I didn't know her, like, extremely well at that point, and I was just building community there. And she heard about the miscarriage and came over and sat with me for two, maybe three hours. I don't know how long it was. It felt like a long time. And she just sat there. We didn't have to talk. I was, like, feeling bad. I was still nauseous. I was still having to go to the bathroom, and there was so much happening, but she just sat there. And that meant the world to me. And I just could not believe that somebody would take the time out of their day. She has three kids of her own and would just come sit with me. And I think that those little things, like, somebody else brought me a meal.
- [30:02]
Joy
And.
- [30:04]
Jessa
Val came over and did all the.
- [30:05]
Jeremy
She just came over and took care of the kids. Like, yeah, Felicity at that point. But she took care of Felicity. And I was just able to relax for that whole period of time because I didn't have. There's a side of it where you just feel like I should. Especially, I think so early on in the miscarriage, I felt kind of strange, like, working through it because it feels different because it's so early. And I was like, well, why is it still hard when I'm so early along? But I still. Like, you have all the things, like you said, you're still nauseous from that early morning sickness and then needing to go to the bathroom because it's like there's so much happening still. You know, you're passing the baby and all those things, and it's like there's so much that is like you're just processing and still. Yeah, that numbness that you said. I think no matter what stage, it's harder when you're. You're further along in that sense and then. But you still feel that numb, like, shock, just utter shock. And so what?
- [31:12]
Jessa
Yeah, well, that was a question I was going to ask all of you. Was. Was there something that surprised you about how you responded or didn't respond or what you were feeling or joy? You had mentioned your mom had gone through it with Jubilee. Shalom. And I don't know if she'd experienced other loss as well, but did you think you'd respond a certain way and then found yourself responding a different way? Or what was. What was your. Yeah. Did it shock you how you responded in those moments?
- [31:41]
Joy
For me, it was. I guess I never had thought about it. Like, how am I gonna respond if something happens?
- [31:49]
Ginger
I.
- [31:50]
Joy
For me, I guess everybody would say, oh, you're so strong. You're handling this so well. And inside, like, you know, you're freaking out. Like, you're like, I just. I don't know what's going on, but I do remember, and it wasn't. And I kept telling everybody, I was like, it's not me. And that's the one thing I look back on, and I'm like. Even in, like, the darkest days of my life, I look. I still look back at that, and I'm like, there was an unexplainable peace and comfort. Not that what I'm going through is okay, you know, but, like, the peace and the comfort that God gave during that time of that, he just. He just was like, it's gonna. You're going to be okay. You're gonna come out on the other side of this. I. And just the visual, I guess, for me, of the visual of God holding Annabelle and, like, in the arms of Jesus is what we put on her tombstone. But in just that visual, for me, I guess, gave me a whole other view of it. And so for me, it's not that, oh, I had this great response to it, but it was. I was so, I guess, in awe of how much comfort God gave in that season that I just wouldn't have ever thought that I could have had, if that makes sense. So it wasn't, like, something that I had done or a response that I chose, but I really feel like God gave me that grace and the comfort that I needed in that season.
- [33:24]
Jessa
Wow.
- [33:25]
Jeremy
And how about you, Jess? What would you say was. I mean, going back to even what things were helpful around that time, how are you processing everything in that season?
- [33:38]
Ginger
Well, I remember after mom lost Jubilee, how when they had gathered us together and they were telling us how she and dad had said, like, we praised the Lord in the good times, and we praised the Lord in the hard times, and, like, quoting those words of Job after he had lost everything, his children and Everything the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. And so I definitely wasn't able to say it right away, but that is something that definitely, their example in that came back to my mind, you know, a day or two later as I was grieving through that process. And I was able to say that, like, God is. God is still good, you know, even in the hard times, God is still good. And I think a huge comfort for me was that I did have little ones to be able to hold, because so many of my friends have gone through loss, like, with a first baby, and, you know, they come home from the hospital and that's. They're all alone. And so that's something that when I came back home, I definitely, you know, I took my little ones in my arms and I held them, and I was so thankful to have that comfort. And I think another layer is people don't always know maybe what to say. People. I mean, a lot of people do want to be there for you when you're grieving and when you're going through a hard time, they may not always know what to say or what to do, and that's okay. Like you had said, like, somebody coming to sit with you. I had that. You know, somebody came and sat with me for a while while I just went through all the. What did I do wrong? And I wasn't taking my vitamins, and I was painting a room before I miscarried. And, like, probably those tombs were so toxic, and I didn't know. And, like, just all the. You know, and they're like, you don't have to bear this. Like, this is. You cannot say this was your fault. Like, just, like, being there just to comfort me, to, like, put their arms around me. That was so. That was so comforting. Somebody gave me also a book by John MacArthur.
- [35:46]
Jessa
Safe in the arms.
- [35:47]
Ginger
Safe in the arms of God. And that was really comforting as well. Another mom who had lost a baby full term, like, when she was, like, nine months pregnant, she had given me that. And so that was really comforting. Those were things that meant a lot. You know, people just. Sometimes you don't even have to say anything, or if you do probably just say, I love you, I'm praying for you. You know, those kinds of things. There were people that would try to maybe rationalize, like, oh, well, like, somebody had said the least helpful things. Here's the things you don't say. Like, oh, well, God probably just wants you to focus on the babies that you have, you know, or, you know, Maybe God's telling you this is like, it's time to be done.
- [36:33]
Joy
No.
- [36:34]
Ginger
Or saying things like, well, a lot of times when you miscarry, it's because there was something wrong with the baby. They probably wouldn't have made it anyway. And I'm like, I do not need to hear that right now.
- [36:46]
Jeremy
That is.
- [36:47]
Ginger
That is, regardless if any of those things might be true, that is not helpful. But the people who were just there to be there for you, like another friend, she's just like texted me the night that we got back from the hospital and said, I'm gonna drop something on your doorstep. And she just brought over a bouquet of flowers and a rotisserie chicken. And it wasn't like she went out and got like a five course meal. And I sat there looking at that and I was like, this is so practical. Like a little ray of sunshine on my countertop and protein and fuel us. Like, that's. It was so practical. But it also showed me it doesn't have to be always huge or elaborate. It can just be the little things that you're doing to show somebody you're there for them and that you care for them. And I think those were things that were very meaningful.
- [37:34]
Jessa
One of the things you brought out in your initial grieving was you've got all of these thoughts swirling through your mind about the loss and then immediately having to deal with the practical, like going to CVS across the street before a wedding, and so for loved ones to come alongside. And I think this is so helpful for people because you all have experienced loss, but then you also have people in your life who are experiencing loss. And to come alongside them in such a sweet way to say, you know, hey, I'm just here to sit with you. I can be a soundboard for you if you'd like. But then also to provide a rotisserie chicken just goes so far. Because those practical needs don't stop, especially if you've got other littles. They still need dinner, they still need Mac and cheese, they need to be put down for bed. And one of the things that was on my heart even as we were talking about this episode was there's a lot of mothers out there who've experienced loss or are experiencing losses who maybe don't even have the support of a husband or the support of a close, tight knit church community. And so they really feel ultra isolated in that. How would you. Well, I guess encourage people who see someone like that in their life to go and support them, because it's an Isolating experience. I imagine going through it.
- [38:58]
Joy
Yeah, I mean, it's already, there's going to be, even if you have a community, there's going to be that almost loneliness feeling of like you lost a part of you, a part of your family. And so I can't imagine not having community outside of just that. Like, that is dark. And it's hard to go through even if you have community. And so if you do, like, I think because I have gone through loss and my sisters have and my mom has, I've seen the way that people loved on me and it, whenever I hear of somebody going through something dark, it gives, I have the empathy because I've been through that to be able to go. And even if, like you said, not even saying something sometimes and just being there or just showing up and saying, hey, I'm gonna drop something on your doorstep, or hey, I'm gonna, if you have kids, I'm gonna give you an activity for your kids to do. Let's bring a splash pad or a coloring book or something for them to keep busy so you can have five minutes. I think that it is so important to have community and you have to build that. And it's not. You don't do it. You don't build community so that they'll, you know, so they'll do something for you. But you do want to reach out to people as Christians to help carry the load, help, comfort, help, because you do want that. Whenever you want to treat other people the way you want to be treated, really. And so if there's a time that you've been, and it may not even be lost, but like, if it's, you have somebody that you've lost in your life, a loved one, what meant most to you, you can go and reach out and do that to other people. And I think something that I've noticed is when I was going through it, I would, people would say, hey, how are, how are you doing? Like, oh, I'm good. And instead of actually accepting help, I would say, oh, I'm good. And I think on the receiving end, I need to be more honest with people and say, today's been a really hard day, or this week's been really hard for me. But then on the giving end, I try not to ask open ended questions anymore. So if somebody's going through something hard, don't just ask them, hey, how are you doing? Or hey, can I get y' all anything? Let me know if you need anything. I try to say, hey, I'm gonna bring a meal on this day. Does that work for you? Or hey, I'm going to do this rather than asking them. Because then it puts the pressure on them. And obviously I think you can feel it out with the certain person. Like, there may be people that really don't want you in their space, but if it's somebody that you're comfortable with not asking those open end questions where it puts the pressure on them to think more or to have to ask you again. Because I think that's why saying, hey, let me know. Just say, hey, I'm going to do this on this day. And then it gives them the ultimatum to either say, no, please don't, or. That would be amazing. Thank you, Troy.
- [41:55]
Jessa
That is so helpful. I'm thinking of Victoria and others, actually. Barb, there's people in our life who, even if it wasn't like it was this latest pregnancy, actually when you gave birth to Finn, which is okay, you're recovering. And Victoria would text us when she's five minutes down the road having left and said, hey, there's something on your doorstep.
- [42:15]
Jeremy
Yeah, that was so sweet. She left me.
- [42:17]
Jessa
She didn't even give you the opportunity to say no.
- [42:19]
Jeremy
And then she came and like, she came and cleaned my house for like, I don't know how many hours. And those little things mean the world. Because I would always say, oh, I don't wanna put you out. Cause I know you have a kid or your life is so busy, and I, as much as I want the help, and I feel like I'm just like, ugh, I could really use that. I keep thinking of everything that they're doing in their lives. And I would never want to, like, accept it. Because that means they're gonna have to drive an hour to my house or they're gonna have to drive 30, 40 minutes. Get somebody to hang with their kid while their husband works or whatever it is. But at the same time, if they're offering, there's that, like, it means so much. Those things mean the world.
- [43:00]
Joy
Community is all about. Yeah, that's what.
- [43:03]
Jessa
And you build that community when you're not in those moments of darkness.
- [43:07]
Jeremy
And by being real, connecting with people, I think that's something that's huge. It's so hard to do, especially in Christian circles. It's like to let somebody into your life is uncomfortable. And I think all of us could probably say, like, in those deepest, darkest times when you don't know what to do, and it's like you're at your wits end. You're like, I don't care how you see me right now. My house is a mess. I don't know what to do. I'm broken. And that's the time when I think, true, you can see, like, I don't have anything to offer you in this moment. There's nothing that you're gaining from coming to serve me, but there is, because there's their joy of letting them serve you. And we can either push that community away or allow them to be blessed by serving you as well and to not. I think there's also a side where we could all see where there are times where people take advantage of that. Yeah. But in true community, where you're like, okay, no, I really do need your help right now. It's not like this is going to be forever. Yeah. You're going to be able to give back. It's not like you're just taking nonstop, like you said. But that beauty of that's what the church is for. That's what community's for. And, like, I think that for each of you, I don't know what you would say, too, in those moments. Like, was there something that encouraged you? The Lord used to encourage you. Was it a first? Was there a song that came to mind in those deepest, darkest times? Because it doesn't just end right away. Joy was reminding me the other day. I was just. We were talking about somebody who had experienced great loss, and she just said it was super sad because here this family is. They walked through great loss. And she said the sad part was hardly anybody got to meet their little one because of the way that their little one was there, but was away from community, having been in a hospital during the time of her life. And so she said she texted her the other day and was just. Just saying, like, I want to make sure that I'm reaching out to her now because that has passed. A lot of people will forget about the pain and the loss that she walked through. And that was just such a great reminder of, like, she's only, you know, barely removed from that. Like, it was a recent loss and yet a month in, everybody moves on, and they're not gonna take you a meal. And she has to walk through that.
- [45:32]
Joy
Day in and day out.
- [45:32]
Jeremy
So I think that was encouraging. Like, how did you process through? And you said, God giving you the comfort? Like, what were some things that the Lord used to comfort you in those seasons?
- [45:44]
Joy
For me, I had a few songs that really meant a lot. So there's a song that all the way My Savior Leads Me and I would just play that on repeat. And I just remember, like, God, God knows the pain I'm going through, and he's going to be here to comfort me. And I think I really leaned heavily on that because I was like, if I could go down a dark road, I could go down this dark hole and feel like I couldn't get out if I didn't lean on Christ and say, God knows the pain I'm going through. He's gonna get me through it. There's light at the end of the tunnel. And I just remember listening to that song over and over again. And then Austin would play scripture, and if I would. I mean, I'm very. Just an open dialogue. So I'm just like, here's all the thoughts I'm thinking. And he'd be like, okay, this is truth and this is a lie, and don't believe this, and here's this. And just kind of have an open dialogue with him of what I was thinking and the. The. I guess the lies that I might have been believing or, you know, just things like that, that really helped me.
- [46:58]
Jeremy
That's so good.
- [47:00]
Jessa
How did. What role did your husbands play in coming alongside of you in those moments? Ben? Austin, as you look back, you know, we have all these outside support, and the women in your life, you as sisters too, supporting one another. What did that look like for the husband? How would you encourage a husband for Austin?
- [47:21]
Joy
I think I honestly, I feel selfish looking back now, because I'm like, I was the one going through the loss, but I remember quite a kid, it dawning on me, like, a couple weeks later. I'm like, this was his baby, too. And I remember he just was trying to be strong for me, but there were many moments where he just kind of lost it and just was crying.
- [47:51]
Jeremy
And.
- [47:57]
Joy
Looking back, I'm like, I wish I would have been more supportive for him, too, but he was really strong for me when I wasn't. And I think, like I said, just, I'm very. I'm very with him. Just like, here it is. Let me throw up on you. Here's all the thoughts, here's all the fears, here's all the what, like, why is God doing this? Questions. And he just was constantly, here's the truth, here's God's word, here's. Let's play this song. Like, he's a great DJ when it comes to, like, spiritual encouraging music. Like, I. There were so many times where I'm, like, just talking and he would play a song, and it would be just truth about who God is. And so I think for me, he was a huge rock in my life during that time and just constantly pointing me back to Christ. And I do feel like after I realized, you know, I need to be comforting to him too. I feel like we worked through it together and healed together.
- [49:05]
Ginger
Yeah, I would say Ben was very, very much the same. Just always with the, like, the songs, the spiritual encouragement and just stepping away from work and being like, this is my priority. I need to be here. We did have a lot of help being close to family here in Arkansas. Mom was definitely there to help us out with the kids and go to the hospital with us, especially with the second loss being a little further along and. Yeah, but he would just take the kids and be like, rest and he was a shoulder to cry on. And like you were saying with the song, I had a song too that meant a lot to me and I still cannot hear that song to this day without instantly being brought to tears in some ways just remembering that season, but then also God's faithfulness through it. And so, yeah, that was definitely a rock as well.
- [50:08]
Jessa
You mentioned your mom. What an incredible woman.
- [50:11]
Jeremy
She's amazing.
- [50:12]
Jessa
She is there for every single one of her children when you're giving birth, when in the midst of loss and she just drops. I mean, if you were to say, how should you respond to help, to support, to love others in their moments of need? She's the paradigm.
- [50:30]
Ginger
Yes.
- [50:30]
Jessa
Or she forgets herself and just gets lost in serving.
- [50:34]
Ginger
Yes.
- [50:35]
Jessa
And I don't know how she does it for all of her children.
- [50:39]
Joy
That's incredible. You feel like there's probably like 100 of her around.
- [50:43]
Jeremy
Because I often wonder, I'm like, even with little things, you know. And you'll call her up at midnight. I've called her so many times, I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do. What's happening with this little one or with myself or something that's happening. And she just always has an answer. So calm and just servant minded in that and knowing all that she's sacrificed and gone through. She doesn't ever talk about her herself or her pain and. And there's. There is that selflessness that you see and it's just incredible. And I wanted to ask too, okay, so shifting a little bit how both of you have gone through great loss and then walked into the joy of life after miscarriage and being able to walk through pregnancy again and in God's kindness to deliver healthy babies and to experience that. But I want to talk about for just a second, how did you handle the fear and anxiety of walking into a pregnancy following such great loss?
- [52:00]
Ginger
I think it is scary. I think it's hard to allow yourself early on to feel excited when you see that positive pregnancy test because you feel like you're bracing yourself. You're like, this may go how it went last time. And, you know, I've had friends who have had back to back losses, and it is just devastation upon devastation. And so I feel like my losses were separated. They weren't back to back. But I definitely felt that until I was past the marker of where I lost my last baby, it was very hard for me to feel, like, really emotionally invested or to, like, get attached because I was like, any second this could be gone. You're terrified. I mean, just like, basically every time you go to the bathroom, you're like, is there blood? Like, am I. Am I losing this baby? And so that's like, the hard side. I think, like, some of the benefits for me after having gone through a loss were that I was a lot more grateful. I took a lot less for granted, and I was definitely less. I still. I still would complain a little bit about pregnancy aches and pains, but I would. You know, I would take a second and be like, but I'm. But I wouldn't want it to be any other way. You know, when those pregnancy symptoms of, like, nausea or whatever, like, went past into the second trimester with one of my babies, I was like, this is going on really long. But then I thought, but it stopped short with the other baby that I lost. And, like, I wouldn't have it any other way. Like, I'm thankful. You're thankful even for, like, hard aspects of pregnancy, because it's. You're still. Your baby's still there and you're still pregnant, and you're. You're. I feel like it just caused me to be so much more grateful and to cherish life even more. And so those were definitely some of the benefits.
- [53:53]
Joy
Mm.
- [53:55]
Jessa
Did you have some of the same fears, Joy?
- [53:57]
Joy
Yeah, definitely. I think with. With I. I would have this, like, battle in my mind almost of, like, I'm so scared, Like, I'm not gonna get excited. But then I would go to the other side of, like, well, I don't need to be controlled by that. I need to be like, God's given us this life, and it's not in my control, so I'm going to trust him. And then the next day I'd be like, but what if this happens? And so it was constant, I think the whole pregnancy just back and forth. And I think once I did have more peace of mind once I passed the 20 week marker. But even past that, I'm like, well, I heard of this story and like, but then Austin would remind me, he's like, now being pregnant and having fear and anxiety is not good for the baby that goes to the baby. So he would remind me and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna be anxious. But then I would have to ask God to help me over and over because it wasn't something that I just got and was passed. Like, I think it was just a battle the whole time. And I think every pregnancy, that I may say the two pregnancies after, I think it's just been something I have to keep giving back to God of. Like, I'm not in control of this. Only God knows and I need to do what I can to obviously take care of my body and the baby. But past that, it's God's.
- [55:18]
Jeremy
And I love, I love how you said that too. I think there's that level of trust with anything in life. As of part believers, we have the hope of Christ knowing that, okay, whatever he allows to come our way, good or bad, that we have to trust Him. That can look like in finances, it can look like in, you know, relationships and with every area. And this is another area that feels. Can feel so different because it's like, well, there's so much you feel like you can do or maybe didn't do, right? Because we feel like there's some level of control, but there's really. Ultimately it is the same as any other area. God is in control of that. So we just allowing ourselves to find that rest and trust. And I want to talk about now looking back at that, at those losses. How, how have you processed everything in hindsight, seeing God's goodness and faithfulness throughout that season, even as you move on, but there still is that side where you don't, because you will have a memory that will come up or there will be something that reminds you. And how have you seen the faithfulness of God and even growing in trust in the Lord through that trial, through those trials that he's allowed.
- [56:40]
Joy
For me personally, I feel like it was. That was one of the biggest faith growing. And you hear the word faith thrown around. And I think it was a time where my faith actually like had to dig deeper and it was faith put into action. It wasn't just the word and oh yeah, I believe in God, and oh yeah, Whatever. Like, I. I went through that, and I feel like God used it. That was something for good that came out of that, was for me to really trust God and not. Not know why. I don't know why that happened, but I can. I can look at that and say, I grew through this. I grew through that. Like, what are some. What are some positive things that happened? And even just something that we talked about when we got pregnant with Evelyn. We. We got pregnant with Evelyn about six months after, and we wouldn't have been able to have Annabelle and Evelyn. So for me, looking back and saying, obviously, like, we. It hurt to go through that loss, but if we. You know, we. We. We wouldn't have Evie today if we hadn't have lost Annabelle. And so just, I guess, for me, instead of God was really gracious to help me not to get bitter at him through that. And just to. And I think it's community and support that we had to help us to look at the positive side of things. And so that was something that I can look back, and I'm like, we have Evelyn. Like, God knew we needed her in our family here on Earth. And anyway, that was something that was comforting for me.
- [58:30]
Jeremy
Jess, anything to add there?
- [58:33]
Ginger
I mean, in some ways, it makes heaven sweeter. Think about one day being able to be reunited with these little ones and, you know, other family members who have gone on before. And I remember after Jubilee's passing with some of the younger sisters, they were trying to process Jubilees in heaven, and they had had a conversation. Mom wrote this one down, talking to a lady who had just lost her mother. And I believe it was Jordan who was saying, like, your mom's up there with my little sister. And. And, like, it's so real, like, when you see little ones talking about heaven and their sibling and all that. But it's so much. There's so much truth in that. And I think that's a comfort to know. Like, we will be reunited with the ones we've lost. And so that's a hope that we hold onto. And I remember one mom who had gone through a loss. I don't remember if she told this to me, or she was just sharing this as part of her experience, but she was saying that it had comforted her to know that the first thing her baby saw when it opened its eyes was the face of Jesus. And, you know, spared from the pain and the suffering of this world. Obviously, we wouldn't make that choice, but there is so much beauty in knowing that our little ones are in the presence of the Lord. And so that's comforting.
- [60:16]
Jessa
I'll never forget the moment my cousin Nikki called me on a Monday morning, or I called her on a Monday evening actually, because on the Monday morning her little six year old had a seizure and died in bed. And so I called her and I said, hey, cuz, how you doing? And I'll never forget what she said. With tears, her voice breaking up, she said, hey, cuz. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but blessed be the name of the Lord, which is job 1 21. And some of you have mentioned it already today, and it's that confidence of Job who, for those of you who are familiar with the book, the Lord is taking every. He's stripping him of everything he owns, including his 10 children. His friends turn on him, his wife turns on him, his riches, his possessions are taken. And yet Job's knee jerk response is to bless God. And it says at the end of the book, after Job goes through this tribulation, that the Lord restored the fortunes of Job and gave him twice of all that he had. And then it goes through and you think, okay, his possessions are back. He had 10 more children. And yet if you think carefully, you go, but he lost 10 children. And so no parent is going, oh, but look, I've got 10 more. No, you lost 10. And so as you wrestle with that, you go, God, what do you mean you restored all of the fortunes of Job? Well, what he did was, and this is what I believe, if you read the book of Job and see how Job interceded for his children's souls, that he now has 20 children with him in glory. And so God truly did double. Now you need a different vantage point than just our earthly temporary vantage point of the stuff we have on this life or the relationships in this life. And you have to look beyond to eternity. But you think of job. He's got 20 children with him in glory. The Lord doubled his fortune. And just as you even say that, you know, Ginger and I, we didn't know the gender of our baby, but we named our baby Halleli Grace. And thinking one day we'll meet Halle, which means praise in heaven. And as much pain as we're going through in the experience of this broken world, to have an eternal perspective, you know, I think a lot of people listening to this will go, how can you hope in a God who allows that? And here these painful experiences are drawing you closer to God and closer to his love. It's like it's just second nature for the three of you to speak of his goodness and his kindness and his faithfulness. But I think a lot of people will wrestle with that, going, how can you trust a God who will take the life of a child? And yet when you see that God's ways are not our ways, he is infinitely more wise. And you see it through an eternal lens, an eternal perspective, and get outside of our temporary experience of pain and realize, I don't know why God is doing everything he's doing, but I know he's good and his plan is good. So whatever he's doing, it's for our good, it's for his glory, even the taking of those little ones to think of your child. We are living our whole life fighting to hold onto the hope of seeing one day seeing Jesus Christ and your little baby beat you to it. They're there, they've seen him, they've been held in his arms, safely in his arms. And it gives us that confidence that I don't know why he's doing everything he's doing, but I know he's good. And I would urge just, you know, as we're thinking conscientiously of people who are listening from different walks of faith or different perspectives in life or different amounts of faith, the alternative, you know, if you want to shake your fist and say, I refuse to believe in a God that would allow brokenness to happen in this world, well, then your alternative is, well, all you've got is darkness. There is no redemption. I think Joy, you said it earlier, maybe it was Jessa, that for you, you know, there's light at the end of this tunnel and that's the hope of the Christian, Is that everything? That's why in Revelation it says every tear will be wiped away. There will be no more pain because it's not always going to be broken like this. There is going to be restoration, there is going to be redemption, there is going to be a joy filled reunion with your children. And so for the Christian that grounds us, that establishes our hope. And although maybe I would love to hear your perspectives on this just for a moment, but help the women who might be struggling in their doubt. So maybe they hear that and honestly, maybe they look at the three of you and I know your sister Jill has gone through this as well and others very close to you. So Jill's out of town, so she couldn't be here to have this conversation. But they might look at the strength of your faith and compound their own guilt because maybe they've been angry at God, maybe they're Going through it and they're going, well, then I must not even be saved. Because, you know, look at these sisters. They're not doubting for a moment. And like you said, like, so resolved. And you, what would you say to them in their doubt, in their struggle with is God good? Because he allowed this.
- [66:17]
Ginger
You do go through the whole range of emotions. It's not like you just block it out and you're just like, oh, I'm good with it. I mean, obviously it's a choice to praise God in the hard times, but it's a process to get there and everybody's timeline is different. But you definitely do ask those questions. It is hard. And you do ask the why. Like, why God? Why this baby? Why me? Why us? Why are we walking through this? Why would you take this little one home? Like, just. You do walk through all of those questions. And I think that is a part of the grieving process. It's not instantaneous.
- [67:00]
Jessa
And that's okay.
- [67:01]
Ginger
Yeah, and that's okay. I mean, if you look at the psalms, you see David wrestling with God, like, why, oh Lord? And he looks at, you know, the state of the world around him. Why, why this brokenness? Why this heartache? And there's always some kind of a conclusion at the end where he brings it back. But I will praise God.
- [67:24]
Jessa
It's that decision. But Ginger and I talked about this the other day, those psalms, okay, it's 18 verses and you can read it in three minutes. Yeah, but that was borne out over a three year experience for David. And so his conclusion comes at the end of this trial. But that doesn't mean he's going to why God? Okay, well, I trust you and praise you in a five minute devotional, which is what we want to kind of encapsulate and go, if I don't walk out of my morning devotion the day after experiencing this loss, joy filled and praising, then I'm not.
- [67:56]
Ginger
I'm a failure.
- [67:57]
Jessa
Yeah, I'm a failure. No, no, no. The realness of those psalms is these are years of the psalmist's lives. Their ultimate conclusion is the goodness of God. Just like the three of you sitting here with some objectivity are going, God is good and we can look back and through the tears, we see the hope. Yeah, but it's not in a moment.
- [68:19]
Joy
No, I definitely had. And it wasn't, oddly enough, it wasn't through that time. Like, it wasn't in that exact, like, right after I lost the baby, it was a couple years later where I went through something Else that was dark. And I asked those hard questions. And I think it was. I had to, like you said. And like. Like Jessa said, the psalms, like, looking back on my life and saying, I can ask God why? And I can say, God, are you. Are. What are you doing? Are you even real? Do you even love me? I can ask all these questions, but it wasn't. I can look back on things in my life and say, there's no other explanation in my life. There's no other explanation for this comfort or this peace that God gave me in that season, but God, like, there's nothing else. And so that's what I look back to. And so. And I think even in the dark season of asking God those questions, I think something that I really appreciate, Austin told me, he's like, you can ask these questions, Joy, but do not ask the questions and just keep going on and get bitter. He's like, ask the questions and search it out. If it's praying, if it's worshiping God, if it's reading his word. He said, that's what, you know, David in the Bible, like, he asked these questions, but then he goes back and he searches God's word. He remembers all that God has done. And so I think, for me, yeah, I don't want people to think that, oh, it was all great and roses. And we went through it, and it was hard, but we made it on the other side. Look, there are dark days, and I think you have to look for those answers.
- [70:02]
Jessa
Looking for those answers. The disciples doubted Jesus, and he knew it. In John chapter six, he preaches to the crowds, and they all abandon him. And he looks at his disciples in the eye and says, are you going to leave, too? And Peter's response is, where else would we go? You have the words of eternal life. Well, he thought through it. Should we go? And then. So it's one thing to ask God questions, why and how and what are you doing? Good. And then you think through them, though, and you say, well, what's the alternative? There is no God, and this globe is spiraling out of control, and all we've got is darkness. Well, that's not a helpful alternative to God's reality. And so as you think through it, you ultimately conclude with, well, where else could we go? There's he is. You know, it's like the Psalm 23.
- [71:01]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [71:01]
Jessa
I'm in the valley of the shadow of death, and yet his rod and his staff, they comfort me and they guide me. Even in the darkness, he's with me. What A beautiful hope that is for the Christian man. Thanks for. I mean, this has been a tough conversation, but I. I know this is a conversation that will minister to so many. So thank you for being open and vulnerable in that way. I know that's not easy to do all of you.
- [71:31]
Jeremy
Yeah. Thanks, girls, for sharing your stories. And I think. I just think of so many people who, like you said, are walking through this, and I just pray it will be helpful. So thanks for being willing to share.
- [71:44]
Jessa
Yeah. I can't help but sit here and admire each of you as you share your stories and your perspectives, having been able to witness, obviously, with Ginger, you know, very personally, that loss and to see how the Lord has guided her and strengthened her and us in that loss. But then for the two of you as well, it's beautiful to see what the Lord's done and doing and to encourage others that it's not your strength. It's the three of you. Jill. No one else, your mother would say, this is because of how brilliant and resolved and strong I am. It's weak women, weak men, leaning on a strong Lord and Savior who sustains, like you said, joy. So insightfully, you felt like this is supernatural. There's something carrying me through this experience. And the Lord uses means, and so, you know, find community. Find.
- [72:51]
Jeremy
Yeah. And on that to close it out, too. I think something that we can do is when we're not in those situations, we can ultimately, like, start to lean into fear. Like, oh, my goodness, how would I ever be able to have the grace for that moment? And I think that that's the thing that probably all of us would say, regardless of what the trial and struggle is, because we've all been through major trials, and God gives you that grace for the trial that he's walking you through. And so I think that for somebody who's prone to fear, I know that's.
- [73:22]
Joy
A big struggle for me.
- [73:23]
Jeremy
I would often hear stories and be like, oh, my. I don't know, Lord, would I trust you through this? Would I be able to get through it? And ultimately, we can't live our lives in fear. We want to live in the joy of the present. And what God's allowed us to have those seasons of joy and reprieve, and then when we walk into a season of trial, also just realizing he will give you that supernatural grace to lean on him, to trust him through it, he carries us through. And so I think, like you're saying, it is the work of the Lord to carry us through those hard times as well. As the good times and to be able to look at the brighter future ahead as we trust in Jesus, it's just the journey of life and trusting him.
- [74:03]
Joy
And so I did want to say something that I appreciated. Somebody had shared with me when I had lost Annabelle. They had told me that I just felt like I'm going to have to move on with my life now. Like, you know, you recover physically, you stop, you know, bleeding, you. You have to kind of move on. And they told me they're like, I went through a loss, and it took me a long time. There's no. Like, there's no set timeline of, okay, you need to be okay after this timeline. And so when I've talked to other people, I have shared that with them. Of, hey, it took me six months. I felt like I was in a cloud for six months. Just. I felt like I was in a fog. And, you know, it's postpartum. Like, your body, one. Your body's going through kind of a shock, and then. And that timeline's gonna be different for people. But I think as a mom, if you're going through loss, don't put yourself on this. I have to bounce back. I have to trust God and just act like nothing's going on. And obviously, like, there were. The joy and the grief were there together. And I felt like there were days where I was like, I can't be happy because I just lost my baby, but I also have my husband and my son here. And so that's something I wanted to just say is there's. There's going to be days where you can have joy and you can, but then the next day, maybe really hard with just. You're hit with that grief again. And so there's no. There's no set timeline of, oh, I have to.
- [75:35]
Jeremy
I have to, you know, be better.
- [75:37]
Joy
I have to act like I'm okay. And it took me a while, and I appreciated somebody sharing that with me when I went through my loss.
- [75:45]
Jessa
That's so helpful.
- [75:46]
Joy
Very good.
- [75:46]
Jessa
So wise. Reach out to a loved one who's. Who's struggling. Reach out to someone, you know, in your community, in your church. You. You ladies have given really wise advice for how to endure suffering and also how to come alongside those who are suffering. So thank you. Well, guys, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for listening. It's a heavy episode, but I think a helpful one. So praying for you all. Grateful for you all, and we will see you next. Hey, this is Chess from the Wandering Heart.
- [76:23]
Joy
And this is our house from our new album Deja Vu. We have all been here before Our.
- [76:30]
Ginger
House is a very, very, very fine.
- [76:35]
Joy
House with two cats in the yard Life used to be be so hard it's all the classics, you know, including Teach youh Children.
- [76:46]
Jessa
Teach your children well Their father's health.
- [76:54]
Joy
Did slowly go by and carry on.
- [76:59]
Jessa
Rejoice, rejoice We have no choice but.
- [77:05]
Ginger
To carry on.
- [77:08]
Joy
Be sure to check out Deja Vu by the Wandering Hearts wherever you stream your music.