Our Family Is Not A Product — Matt & Abby on TikTok Fame, Building a Brand, & Being Unplanned

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Our Family Is Not A Product — Matt & Abby on TikTok Fame, Building a Brand, & Being Unplanned"

Episode: 50
Release Date: June 25, 2025
Guests: Matt & Abby
Host: Jinger Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo

---

1. Introduction to Matt & Abby

In this milestone 50th episode of The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast, hosts Jinger and Jeremy Vuolo welcome special guests Matt and Abby, two influential podcasters known for their authentic and engaging content. The episode delves into Matt and Abby's journey from high school sweethearts to social media sensations, exploring the dynamics of building a brand while maintaining personal integrity.

Jeremy (07:32): "Matt and Abby, welcome. We're excited to have you on our podcast."

---

2. Early Relationship and Young Marriage

Matt and Abby share their poignant love story, which began in middle school during a summer theater production of Mary Poppins at The Muny in St. Louis, Missouri. Their bond deepened over the years, leading to a decision to marry young.

Matt (13:20): "We decided that we'd get married while we were still in high school."

Abby (16:00): "We are spending a third of our lives together. My life with this person feels ancient."

Their marriage was marked by youthful enthusiasm and a shared vision for their future, balancing education and personal commitments.

---

3. Transition to Social Media and TikTok Fame

Initially, Matt and Abby ventured into creating YouTube content, posting videos about their daily lives and hobbies. Their breakthrough came unexpectedly when their TikTok dances went viral, catapulting them to over a million followers within a few months.

Matt (31:18): "By August 2020, we had a million followers on TikTok."

Abby (31:41): "Our TikTok dances blew up, transforming our side hustle into a full-time endeavor."

The pandemic provided them with additional time to focus on content creation, leading to rapid growth and monetization through platforms like YouTube AdSense.

---

4. Building a Brand with Authenticity

Matt emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and authenticity in their content, which resonated deeply with their audience. This genuine approach fostered a strong community that supports and relates to their personal stories.

Matt (32:48): "People connected to our vulnerability and authenticity. They saw us for who we truly are."

Abby (33:23): "Our community grew because we were real and shared our genuine experiences."

However, with fame came challenges, including negative feedback and the pressure to maintain a consistent public image.

---

5. Balancing Public Content with Private Life

As their online presence grew, Matt and Abby grappled with the balance between sharing their lives and preserving their privacy. They discuss the evolution of their content strategy, moving from open sharing to more curated and private disclosures.

Abby (37:51): "We’ve learned to keep certain aspects of our lives private to protect our family's well-being."

Matt (43:55): "I'm figuring out who I am as a father and what to share while protecting my family."

They highlight the necessity of setting boundaries to ensure their content remains a healthy reflection of their lives without compromising personal relationships.

---

6. Navigating the Challenges of Public Sharing

The couple recount instances where their openness led to unintended consequences, such as public disagreements aired on their platforms. They reflect on the impact these moments had on their personal lives and relationships, emphasizing the importance of resolution before sharing publicly.

Matt (52:04): "We publicly discussed an argument that, in hindsight, we should have kept private."

Abby (52:50): "Sharing our struggles has built community, but it’s crucial to handle sensitive topics with care."

Their experiences underline the delicate balance between vulnerability and privacy, advocating for thoughtful sharing that prioritizes relationship health over audience engagement.

---

7. Parenting in the Public Eye

Matt and Abby discuss the profound impact of parenthood on their public personas and content creation. They share strategies for maintaining their children's privacy while still engaging with their audience, ensuring that family moments remain authentic yet protected.

Abby (44:42): "We have structured our content to ensure our kids' privacy is maintained while still sharing precious moments."

Matt (54:00): "Balancing fatherhood with our online presence requires intentional boundaries and prioritizing family time."

They emphasize the joy and challenges of raising young children amidst the demands of maintaining a public brand, highlighting the importance of routine and intentionality in their daily lives.

---

8. Lessons Learned and Future Outlook

Reflecting on their journey, Matt and Abby share valuable lessons about prioritizing family, setting boundaries, and the importance of authenticity in building a sustainable brand. They discuss their future plans, focusing on family growth and evolving their content to better reflect their current life stage.

Matt (61:28): "You can't be the best at everything. Prioritizing what truly matters helps prevent exhaustion and stress."

Abby (63:02): "Every day is a new discovery in our family of four, and we cherish these moments immensely."

Looking ahead, they express a commitment to continuing their authentic storytelling while safeguarding their family's privacy and well-being.

---

9. Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt gratitude towards Matt and Abby for sharing their candid experiences and insights. Jinger and Jeremy commend their guests for their resilience and dedication to maintaining authenticity in the face of fame.

Jeremy (66:24): "We're rooting you on from Los Angeles as you navigate life in Arizona."

Ginger (66:36): "Thanks for hanging out and being on the podcast. See you next time!"

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Matt (31:18): "By August of 2020, we had a million followers on TikTok."
• Abby (33:23): "Our community grew because we were real and shared our genuine experiences."
• Matt (43:55): "I'm figuring out who I am as a father and what to share while protecting my family."
• Abby (44:42): "We have structured our content to ensure our kids' privacy is maintained while still sharing precious moments."

---

Key Takeaways

• Authenticity Resonates: Matt and Abby's genuine sharing of their lives fostered a strong, supportive community.
• Balancing Privacy and Public Life: Setting clear boundaries is essential to protect family privacy while engaging with an audience.
• Evolving Content Strategy: As their lives changed, so did their content approach, emphasizing the importance of adaptability.
• Lessons in Vulnerability: Openly sharing struggles can build community but requires careful consideration to maintain personal and relational integrity.
• Prioritizing Family: Despite the demands of social media, Matt and Abby prioritize their roles as parents and partners, underscoring the importance of family over digital presence.

---

This episode offers an insightful look into the complexities of building a personal brand in the digital age while striving to maintain authenticity and protect one's privacy. Matt and Abby's candid conversations provide valuable lessons for anyone navigating the intersection of personal life and public persona.

Transcript

[Jeremy]

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[Matt]

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[Jeremy]

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[Abby]

Everyone who works at Starbucks full or.

[Ginger]

Part time gets stock in our company.

[Abby]

Which means that when Starbucks succeeds, our people do too.

[Ginger]

At Starbucks, benefits, like company stock, are just the start.

[Matt]

TikTok dances were huge at the time, so we made a YouTube video behind the scenes of us attempting viral TikTok dances. That was the title YouTube video. Is Abby and I doing these dance trends?

[Abby]

That's the day we downloaded TikTok.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And we didn't have it before then.

[Ginger]

Crazy.

[Matt]

For whatever reason, those TikTok videos blew up. One of them got over a million views. We started TikTok in April of 2020, and by August of 2020, we had a million followers on TikTok.

[Abby]

It was the most out of character day of my life.

[Matt]

I was kind of like, I've never done this before. What do I do? And. And then it just.

[Abby]

He had also never dated anybody.

[Matt]

Never dated.

[Abby]

He had never dated or kissed anyone.

[Matt]

Kissed each other on the first date. Yes.

[Abby]

Even some of my friends that they were shocked. They were like, no way. You kissed him on the lips? Like on the lips. It was.

[Jeremy]

What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Ginger and German podcast. And we're excited because we have some guests in house with us.

[Ginger]

Yes. Guys, you are gonna know who these people are.

[Jeremy]

They've really pioneered. Well, before we introduce them. I don't really have a formal introduction.

[Abby]

Drum roll, please.

[Jeremy]

They are the premier podcasters.

[Ginger]

Yes, they are. Right now, they are top tier. They're so much fun, and we're super excited to have them in studio.

[Jeremy]

Matt and Abby, welcome.

[Matt]

Oh, my God.

[Abby]

You gassed us up way too much.

[Matt]

You hyped us up so much there.

[Abby]

Come on.

[Jeremy]

You guys will believe this, but that introduction, we just wong it.

[Abby]

Really?

[Jeremy]

Yeah. Is wong a word?

[Matt]

You wong it?

[Jeremy]

We winged it.

[Abby]

That was. I'm flattered. I'm flattered.

[Jeremy]

Yeah. You're welcome.

[Ginger]

It's so fun. Thanks for coming on our podcast, guys.

[Jeremy]

Here in Los Angeles, we are. And you're at our house.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Abby]

Matt. Matt stepped in human poop today. Should I say welcome to lunch?

[Matt]

We were in downtown la and I get out of the vehicle of the Uber and I step in something squishy, and immediately I'm like, oh, no, Did I just step in dog poop? And then I think for a second and I. I think I'm in downtown la.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

And you are more.

[Matt]

There are more humans pooping on the street here than dogs.

[Ginger]

It's for sure.

[Matt]

It was.

[Abby]

It was very bad as it is. And, yeah, I was like, between the two of us, it would have been better if I stepped in it because. No, yeah, because Matt. Matt. Matt was pooping anything like that. He literally shut down. I was like, what's wrong?

[Jeremy]

Can I just say something about that. That dynamic we. The other day, Ginger, whenever I have to change a diaper, it's like. I'm like, I can't do it. You know? Like, I go into this hole and I'm covering my face, and she's like. She's like, come on, just do it. But then anytime she has to take the trash out, she has the same reaction. And I'm like, it's just trash.

[Ginger]

I get so disgusted taking the trash out.

[Matt]

Really?

[Ginger]

So disgusted. It's like I just touch it. I wash my hands, like, five times, and diapers. I'm like, I do it every day.

[Abby]

What it is.

[Ginger]

Right.

[Jeremy]

I don't want to be around it. What is that?

[Matt]

I don't like poop. You know, I'm not a big poop.

[Abby]

I mean, I'm not a fan.

[Ginger]

Well, the thing is. Okay, so you walked up to our front door and you were like, okay, we're. You know, you're about to come in, and you're like, I'm gonna just take my shoes off here outside the door. And I said, you're welcome. But then at first I was, well, you can set them right inside the door so you don't get snakes in your shoe. And then you're like, no, no. And I was like, okay, something happened, and Abby told me. And I was like, okay, thank you for doing that for us, because we'll check your. We'll check your shoes for snakes later. But we don't want that in our house.

[Abby]

We're just going to leave them here. That's nasty.

[Ginger]

We'll just.

[Matt]

I need to throw those away. They're from target. They were 20 bucks.

[Ginger]

Oh, no.

[Matt]

I think at this point.

[Ginger]

Order a pair tonight.

[Jeremy]

The soul support you need, brother. Oh, yeah. Abby, should I do an advertisement?

[Abby]

Please do, because you have me sold.

[Jeremy]

So this was all an elaborate plan to advertise my Cozy Earth slippers.

[Abby]

Those look nice.

[Jeremy]

For 20% off, use code. Ginger.

[Abby]

You can tell those are nice.

[Jeremy]

They're very comfortable.

[Ginger]

All right.

[Jeremy]

Okay. Wait. Wait a second. I have more. Are you guys a shoeless home?

[Matt]

Oh, no. Okay. So I would like to be. I would love to be a shoeless household.

[Ginger]

I.

[Matt]

But nobody. Nobody will abide by the rules. Same nobody. So at this point, I've just given up.

[Jeremy]

Same, bro.

[Ginger]

You abide by the rule.

[Abby]

No, I'm sorry. I. I tried for a little bit. If it would make you feel respected, I will try harder next time. But, like, it is something. I'm like, how many times do I need something upstairs? And I just want to run and, like, their kids are already in the car, and I'm like, am I really gonna stop? Take my shoes off. Do, do, do, do, do. Go upstairs. Go do what I need. Go backstairs do. Put my shoes back on. Go back outside.

[Jeremy]

Are you going over carpet when you got upstairs?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

With your shoes on?

[Matt]

Carpet with shoes on, dude.

[Jeremy]

Wow.

[Matt]

It's a little nasty.

[Ginger]

Yeah. See, that's the side where I do think about the carpet. I take my shoes off just briefly.

[Abby]

It's just our steps.

[Ginger]

But if I'm running upstairs just one time, that's fine.

[Abby]

One time.

[Ginger]

So that's the challenge. We have this too. It's tough to figure out what to do when you talk about it when you see all those reels about how disgusting it is.

[Matt]

Oh, you're tracking everything from outside into your house. But okay. If we bought a robotic vacuum to help keep our floors cleaner, but then somehow it came broken, and we returned it, and we never got another one. So at this point, we still have dirty floors. Yeah, it's nasty too, because my feet will turn. Turn black. Oh, shit.

[Ginger]

That's what I was nervous about when y' all came into our house today. Cause I was like, I didn't mop before you came. Seriously, I vacuum.

[Jeremy]

Here's the thing. If you buy. You bought into this concept, you wouldn't be having to mop. You wouldn't feel that urge to mop.

[Ginger]

It's true. I would never mop the floor. I like that.

[Jeremy]

We just have clean floors.

[Abby]

Okay. We can. We can try this again. Matt even bought a special doormat that says, like, little hands touch these floors, please. It has, like, a rhyme.

[Matt]

Oh, that's cute.

[Jeremy]

I bought it.

[Matt]

I got it from Amazon.

[Abby]

He was really trying.

[Jeremy]

You've tried every angle, brother. I respect it.

[Matt]

I wanted to put up a sign that said, like. Like, shoes off, please. If not, you will be, like, shot, and then have, like, a Nerf gun on it.

[Jeremy]

Like, I like it.

[Matt]

And then it's like, if you have your shoes on in my House, I'm going to shoot you with a Nerf bullet.

[Jeremy]

So you like it. You've tried your children's health, You've tried the manipulation. I mean, you've gone every angle.

[Matt]

I've given up. I've given up.

[Ginger]

Do you have a shoe rack? A little shoe rack next to the door?

[Abby]

Do you have a shoe rack?

[Matt]

We do, yeah.

[Abby]

Oh, but you know, who leaves their shoes not in the shoe rack the most of anyone in this family?

[Matt]

Gotten a lot better.

[Ginger]

He's leaving it for people who come for the guests.

[Abby]

Exactly. He's leaving space. No, he's really tried everything. You really gave it a good effort.

[Jeremy]

I think the solution is house slippers.

[Ginger]

That's what he said. And I was like, but isn't that gross?

[Jeremy]

No. Because people putting them on, slippers that never go outside. You only wear them in the house.

[Ginger]

Yeah, Other people are wearing them.

[Jeremy]

No, no, no, no, no. You have your own.

[Ginger]

Because, I mean, I wear these inside.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, no, you wouldn't wear someone else's house. Good, mate.

[Ginger]

Okay.

[Jeremy]

Anyhow, hey, welcome to the podcast.

[Abby]

Glad you're here having us. It's beautiful in here.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

Aw, thanks. So, really, I do do want to say, though, Matt. I've called Matt so much so often as we were launching this podcast. This is our 50th episode, by the way.

[Abby]

Congratulations.

[Matt]

Wait, that's amazing.

[Jeremy]

So we're only 100 episodes behind you.

[Matt]

Have you guys been doing, like, more than one a week?

[Jeremy]

No, we've been doing one a week. Yep.

[Matt]

I didn't realize you guys have been doing it that long. That's amazing.

[Abby]

Crushing it.

[Ginger]

Crazy.

[Jeremy]

We started. I think so this is how it actually started for us. It was a week or two before we moved into this house. We started the podcast, but originally there was. We had someone come in to film the podcast, and we recorded two episodes. Those did not get recorded. There's a malfunction on the.

[Matt]

Oh, no.

[Jeremy]

So, okay, no problem. So we came back the next week. We were still at our old house. Recorded two more. Those did not get recorded.

[Matt]

Oh, shoot.

[Jeremy]

It was really fun. So we had a very bumpy start.

[Ginger]

We could have been at 55 about now, maybe 57. I don't know.

[Jeremy]

And so the first ones we actually recorded were in this house, even though we started probably two weeks before we moved here.

[Abby]

That was the dress rehearsal.

[Ginger]

Tried probably better that way.

[Matt]

That actually happened to us. We had to do a podcast twice. Somebody wanted to interview us, like in the very early days of doing TikTok, and recorded the whole thing and it didn't work. So then we like, we redid it. Yeah.

[Ginger]

Oh, my goodness.

[Matt]

It happens, man.

[Jeremy]

To get the energy back to redo that.

[Matt]

But fingers crossed. I don't know how this, knock on wood, somehow we've never had that happen for us, right?

[Jeremy]

Not really.

[Ginger]

Really?

[Matt]

Yeah. We've never had to redo an episode, so that's great. And so every time, though, I'm always like, looking at the.

[Jeremy]

Okay. But that's why. That's what I was going to say was I've called you so many times to ask your counsel on even if it's tiny things like microphones and those kind of things all the way up to like format and guests and how we do this thing and the grind. And you guys both have been so helpful in paving the way for us to launch this thing as well. So we're super grateful for you guys. Just your friendship.

[Abby]

So nice.

[Jeremy]

And also we do mimic your thumbnails.

[Ginger]

We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about zocdoc.

[Jeremy]

Yeah. If you're anything like me, I will rather deal with an unknown medical condition in my life than the hassle of booking a doctor's appointment. Oh, yeah, Seriously, I fear the hassle of booking a doctor more than whatever's happening to my body. That's unknown. But not anymore, because ZocDoc is the solution. It's incredible.

[Ginger]

Oh, yeah. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, we're Talking about over 100,000 in network doctors that you can locate and book that suit you. So if you've ever been in a doctor's office and are just going, I don't like the feeling of this place or man, this just makes me uncomfortable. Well, don't worry about it. Go find a new doctor and use ZocDoc.

[Ginger]

So stop putting off those doctors visits and go to Zocdoc.com ginger to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, that's sockdoc.com ginger zocdoc.com ginger z o c-o c.com ginger we want to.

[Ginger]

Take a break from this episode to tell you about Cozy Earth.

[Jeremy]

Yeah. One of the things we haven't actually talked about with Cozy Earth is the difference they make during hot nights. Oh, yeah, it gets hot out here in California and obviously we've got the AC running and all of that, but it can't be too cold for the baby. Those sheets are so comfortable, so light. You feel cool. You feel breathable.

[Ginger]

Yeah, they definitely have a cooling effect, which is what I love. And they're so buttery soft. We've told you about them so many times. Literally, we had guests come, and almost every person who stays in our guest room asks us about the sheets, to the point where I actually sent some guests home with the bed sheets because they were so comfortable, and, I mean, they needed Cozy Earth bed sheets.

[Jeremy]

And that night, we also had guests on the podcast, which you're gonna see soon, who asked to do the Cozy Earth ad with us because they stayed with us for a couple days. They had them on the bed and said, hey, we got this one. And so you'll see that coming up in an episode.

[Ginger]

It's impressive.

[Jeremy]

But go to cozyearth.com and use code ginger. J, N, G, E, R for 40% off. Check out their clothes. Check out everything else. Cozyearth.com use code ginger.

[Ginger]

Now back to the episode.

[Jeremy]

So you're.

[Matt]

Dude, you're too kind. No, I felt bad because I gave you some advice one time, and I think you, like, used it, and then the thumbnail didn't perform, and I was like, dang it. I led. I led Jeremy astray.

[Ginger]

Miss. That's great.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, you're just. We're just testing stuff and, you know, see what happens. But we've been grateful for you guys, and I want to hear. So there's a lot in your story to go into, because we've got. You guys got married very young, and I think that has to do with the origin of the podcast name.

[Ginger]

Yeah, we actually really want to hear about.

[Jeremy]

We want to hear that. We want to hear about the name of the TikTok fame going viral, how all that stuff started. You guys have such an interesting life, and what's really cool is I love how curious you guys are. Like, somebody once said, interested people make interesting people, and if you never quote, you'll never be quoted. You know, things like that, where what they're getting at is the people who are most interesting and most fascinating are those who are interested in others. And you guys have displayed that with all the guests you have on and the conversations you have and the things you're exploring, but we want to hear about your story. So let's start. Where do we want to start? Oh, let's begin. Young marriage, meeting together.

[Ginger]

How did y' all meet?

[Abby]

You want to take it?

[Matt]

Sure. Yeah. So I. I first. I first met Abby when we were in, like, middle school, basically. I mean, we Were. Yeah, we were eighth grade, going into high school that summer. This is the summer of 2013. We were in a production of Mary Poppins together.

[Abby]

We were theater kids.

[Matt]

Yeah, we were theater kids. And it was at this regional summer theme theater in St. Louis, Missouri, called the Muny. It's all outdoors. It's actually the oldest and largest outdoor musical theater in America. So it has some history there. And so we were fortunate to be in this youth ensemble where we got to act alongside people who do Broadway shows and all these Broadway performers. So, anyway, we meet and we are just friends. And I mean, at least on my end, I didn't think of Abby as more than a friend. I found out later that I guess she thought of me as more than a friend at that point. But it wasn't until the summer before my senior year of high school that I was talking with Abby and just realized, oh, my gosh, this girl's beautiful, and she's so much fun to talk to. And my 18th birthday's coming up. I've never asked a girl out on a date before. I'm going to ask her out on a date. And not only that, but have her go with me on my birthday to, like, you know, go to Chick Fil a and see a movie and go on a hike. And so that's what I did. I was like, it's my. Yeah, dude. It was my golden birthday.

[Ginger]

Wow.

[Matt]

Yeah. I turned 18 on June 18, and it was, you know, that was the start.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

Oh, by the way, happy birthday.

[Matt]

Thank you. Yeah. Today's my birthday.

[Jeremy]

Literally today.

[Matt]

This was nine. This is our nine years ago today.

[Abby]

Nine year anniversary.

[Matt]

Gotcha. Nine years.

[Jeremy]

Wow.

[Abby]

Of being together, not married.

[Jeremy]

Wow.

[Ginger]

That's wild. Oh, my goodness.

[Jeremy]

Wait, so that means he's 27.

[Matt]

I'm 27.

[Jeremy]

Yeah. He's 27.

[Matt]

27, dude. Isn't that crazy? Here's the thing. Here's what's really trippy. Okay. It's been nine years since that day. Think about the fact that, like, that much time before my 18th birthday, I was 9, you know, like, that was the midpoint. 18 was the midpoint of, like, 9 and 27, which is so. I feel so freaking old.

[Abby]

We spent a third of our life together. My life with this person, like, ancient.

[Ginger]

So let's just not go so.

[Jeremy]

You're not old, bro. You're not old. You're a spring chicken.

[Ginger]

You are so young.

[Jeremy]

We are young.

[Abby]

We are young.

[Jeremy]

You're very young. You just put us in the grave.

[Matt]

I've never heard someone Say spring chicken. That's hilarious.

[Abby]

You never heard that?

[Jeremy]

Just popped out the egg. Brother. You are. Okay, so your 18th birthday. That's a big date.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Did you just, like, react, Abby? Like, what was your reaction? Did you just say, oh, yeah, I'm totally going on a date with you? I've been waiting for this.

[Abby]

Okay, so our moms were, like, kind of friends because this was a children's. Like, a youth ensemble. We needed our moms in eighth grade, we needed our moms to drop us off. You know what I mean? And you had to, like, they had a lot of, like, systems in place. So, like, there was a lot of adult, like, supervision here. And so they. Our moms kind of became friends before we were, like. I was just crushing from afar. And he actually kind of became like a. Like, a legend almost among me and my friends. Like, they're like, is this Matt Howard real? Because I live two hours away in a small town, and my mom was a teacher, and obviously I had off for summer break, and this was only a summer theater because it's outdoors in the Midwest. And so that was the only reason I was able to, like, this was able to be a thing for me. And so my mom would come down for if I got in a show, and we would spend, like, a few weeks in St. Louis. And so, like, I would come back to my hometown. I'd be like. Like, Matt Howard. Like, I would bring it up because I had never dated anyone. Like, I had, like, talked to some boys, but it was nothing ever serious. And I was like, I'm just waiting for Matt Howard, like, as a joke, because I never, ever thought that that would be ever anything. I was also, like, mortified at the thought of even flirting with you. Like, I was, like, so quiet, so shy. I was like, if this is ever gonna be a thing, which I didn't think it was, I was like, he's gonna have to come to me because I can't. Like, I'm too nervous. And it was also just, like, my personality. So when I texted my girlfriend that Matt asked me on a date, which also, there was some confusion around that, because it's one of those things where you were not being the most clear because we were so young. Like, it was like. And it was also kind of dirty times, like, you want to get ice cream sometimes? Okay, it's kind of vague, right? Like, it's like, is it just me and you or, like, other people coming? Because we had, like, other friends and stuff, and then you backpedaled.

[Matt]

Well, I think I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I was like, am I taking her on a date? Am I just trying to hang? I think at first I was trying to hang with you, and then the people that I invited to the hang bailed. And I'm like, okay, this is a date. I'm taking you on a date. It's just gonna be me then.

[Abby]

He did say that.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I made it very clear.

[Abby]

He picked me up.

[Matt]

I was kind of like, I've never done this before. What do I do? And. And then it just.

[Abby]

He had also never dated anybody.

[Matt]

Never dated.

[Abby]

He had never dated or kissed anyone.

[Matt]

Kissed each other on the first day. Yes.

[Abby]

It was, like, the most. It was the most out of character day of my life. Like, literally going on a date, kissing a guy, like. But I had been crushing on him for so long. I was like, yeah, if I get this opportunity, like, I am not going to waste it. But the kiss was so funny. We talk about this because it was so, so awkward. So, so awkward.

[Matt]

He.

[Abby]

We took us to a scary movie just so we could, like, sit close. And then, like, it was just.

[Jeremy]

Good plan, man. Good plan.

[Abby]

He did. He really planned this out.

[Matt]

I feel like I would have been. If. If I would have grown up, like, in. In your community, I would have been like, the rebel. Like, did you know he kissed on the first date? I feel like that was so.

[Abby]

Even my friends, that they were shocked. They were like, no way. You kissed him on the lips. Like, on the lips.

[Matt]

Not on the cheek. On the lips.

[Abby]

It was the tiniest little peck. And we were like. It was so. But I remember that day so vividly. It was very out of character of me, like, to go on a date even. Like, I wasn't really, like, thinking. I was very logical about everything. I was like, what are the odds? I date someone in high school, and then we go to the same college, and then we still sit like. I was like, it's not gonna work out. Like, that doesn't make sense. I'll just wait. And then look. We just debunked everything that I believed about that. But so funny. So we kind of dated long distance for our first year.

[Jeremy]

Did you guys know? Was there something after that first date where you were like, this girl might be the one, or was it like, we'll take it slow, like normal? Or is there just something, a spark where you guys were like.

[Abby]

Immediately, I was like, I'll. I'll ride this out as long as he's willing to. Like, I Was like, I'm locked in. And I feel like you were more like.

[Matt]

I think. I think. Well, straight up, we were just making out a lot, like, in the first. In the first couple, like, weeks of the relationship. And I was like, this is awesome. I love having a girlfriend. I love having a girlfriend. And then eventually it was one of those things where we were seniors in high school. We had to make a decision on we like this thing going to keep going on. And we just.

[Abby]

We could only talk then for a long time, which was good.

[Matt]

We basically decided that we were gonna get married while we were still in high school.

[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

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[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

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[Jeremy]

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[Ginger]

Now back to the episode.

[Matt]

Wow. Yeah. Cause, I mean, if you're gonna go to college together, that's kind of a.

[Jeremy]

Wait, you decided while you were in high school that you'd get married or that you'd get married while you were in high school?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Ginger]

No, no.

[Abby]

That we're gonna get married? No.

[Ginger]

Okay.

[Matt]

I told my parents that I was gonna get married while I was in high school just to kind of freak him out and see what they would say. But I wasn't actually serious. We didn't actually get married married until after our sophomore year.

[Jeremy]

Got it. Which is still early.

[Matt]

Yeah. 20 and 21 engage at 19. I turned 20, like, a couple days before I proposed. So we were both basically teenagers when all that happened, which is so crazy.

[Ginger]

To think about, you know, that's insane. Okay, so how much time elapsed, you said for that year, you talked, but how, like, I mean, at what point did you pop the question? And was it like, you. You saw it coming, or was this something where it was just kind of out of left field?

[Abby]

No, we knew.

[Ginger]

Okay.

[Abby]

It was like. Well, I didn't know the, like, timing he was going to do it, but we had done, like, pre engagement counseling. Like, we had, like, talked about this a lot. It was two years after we started dating that he proposed.

[Matt]

And I was. I was reading books by Dave Ramsey in those days, because I was realizing, if I'm going to.

[Abby]

We read a lot of books.

[Matt]

I'm going to marry this girl. That means we're all on our own financially. There's going to be no help from, you know, mom and dad to pay our bills. So I got a job within, like, the first week of being in college because I needed to start making money. And so it was just. It was all about, okay, how do we get married? And I was very vocal to everybody in our community in college about marrying Abby. Everybody knew that I was gonna marry Abby.

[Ginger]

That's awesome.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

So what did you study in college?

[Matt]

Initially, it was actually theater. We were both in the acting program.

[Jeremy]

You went to different schools?

[Matt]

Same school, Went to college together.

[Abby]

Same program for the first semester.

[Matt]

And after a semester, we switched our majors because we wanted to prioritize our relationship over our careers.

[Ginger]

Wow, that's super cool. I feel like, from a young man like Abby, you looking at him and just seeing him get all of these things lined out. I don't know, like, was that motivation always there from when you were younger that you just wanted. You felt, like, that drive to get into work, you know, and, like, provide, or was that something where you guys were like. I mean, it just. It. Did that motivate you, thinking, okay, I want to get married young. I want to have kids right away. Or were you guys even, like, talking about those things early on legitimately?

[Matt]

I just became obsessed with Abby and just wanted to marry her. It was never an idea to get married young.

[Abby]

Same for me. I was like, I'll probably get married in my 30s, which is still young, but, like, quite a bit different than 20, for sure. But we just fell in love.

[Ginger]

I love it when you know, then why wait? And that's the side of it where I feel like, it's so sweet to see you guys. And, I mean, I want to get into, like, how quickly you had kids. Yeah, Everything that took off there. Because that was just kind of a wild ride for you.

[Abby]

Totally.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Well, it's one of those things. Abby and I had this discussion before we got married, before proposing. It's like, yeah. How? We're both 19. How long do you want to wait to have kids after we get married? Oh, two years. And to me, I'm like, two years. That's, like, so much time. We haven't even. We barely been together for two years. So I'm like, yeah, two years. So after we've been married for two years, Abby's like, okay, time to have kids. And I'm like, oh, what? Like, I'm like, that went by so fast. And then she just goes, it's time.

[Abby]

No, I was, like, ready before I was even.

[Matt]

Abby wanted to have babies in high school. Man, she loves babies.

[Jeremy]

Wow.

[Matt]

But no, it was one of those things where, you know, she got her IUD out, and then it was just, like, right away, boom, baby. And then we were pregnant, so it happened really fast.

[Ginger]

Wow.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

That's insane.

[Abby]

It was. Yeah. I feel like Matt was like, all right. I said two years. And I was like, great, let's do it. And then we had cad Griffin.

[Matt]

And then Abby was like, by the way, for a lot of people, like, you know, it doesn't happen right away. So it could be. It could be six months. It could be a year. Which is true because we had friends that it took a while.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so I thought, okay, yeah, we're going to start trying now. Might be like a year from now that we get pregnant. And it was just like, oh, here we go. This is crazy.

[Jeremy]

I mean, obviously, that's a huge adjustment, having kids in a young marriage. Did you see a shift in your relationship? Were there challenges that immediately presented themselves?

[Abby]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

No, it was really. It was pretty easy.

[Abby]

No.

[Matt]

People always talk about parenting being so hard, and for us, it's just been a walk in the park.

[Jeremy]

You had it all sorted out?

[Abby]

No, certainly not. I feel like we. I mean, we had been together by the time we had Griffin. We'd been together for almost five, four years.

[Matt]

Wait, Griffin?

[Abby]

Which isn't a super long time, but I feel like what caused. I mean, I think that we experienced what anyone would probably experience in their marriage in a major.

[Matt]

Well, Griffin was born.

[Abby]

Life change.

[Matt]

Like, literally the. No, he. Oh, my gosh. He was born before our third wedding anniversary.

[Abby]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Matt]

Three days before our third wedding.

[Abby]

Three days before our third wedding anniversary.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So it Was like, pretty. Almost like three years today. Pretty much.

[Abby]

So like five years together.

[Matt]

No, that would be. That would be six years together.

[Abby]

Six years together. I don't know. It's been. I don't know.

[Matt]

We dated two years, were engaged for a year, then did two years of marriage with no kids, and then started trying. Got pregnant right away and so, yeah.

[Abby]

Stayed together for six years.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Abby]

But I feel like that's a long. That's a good amount. Having the kid, obviously, is a major life change, especially for the lifestyle we had. We've been doing social media, so then we are, like, controlling our own days. The most flexibility you could ever have, hanging out one on one, literally all day, every day, but then also, like.

[Matt]

Posting every single day about everything going on in our life to where there was absolutely no privacy at all for. For our lives. And it's crazy to look back. Like, we. We've had. We've had some, like, disagreements before on our podcast and like, we probably shouldn't have aired that. Like, like, we've been. We've been so real and so just like authentic and vulnerable.

[Abby]

I don't watch it back, so I have no idea.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

What went down to where it's like, we've really put out a lot of stuff onto the Internet.

[Jeremy]

Tell us about that. Because you guys are of the generation that grew up with social media.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Abby]

Not exactly. I don't feel like we did, though.

[Matt]

I mean, we were watching Charlie bit my finger when we were 8 years old.

[Abby]

That's true. But I feel like it's so different now.

[Jeremy]

Sure. For sure. It's changed a lot.

[Abby]

Yeah. Like, when we were in high school, it was like, no one really put posted things on like Instagram or.

[Jeremy]

When would you. What years were you in high school?

[Matt]

Like, I can.

[Abby]

2017.

[Matt]

I graduated. Yeah, we graduated in 2017. Like, we didn't have.

[Abby]

Just before it.

[Matt]

We didn't have TikTok Brain Rot back in the day. You know, we would watch some funny little videos on YouTube. The. The blueberries. Blueberries. Oh, and the lady. Remember the Blueberries thing that. Am I the one?

[Abby]

I thought that. Where's the chapstick?

[Matt]

Where's the chapstick? That was huge. Fred. I used to love watching Fred on YouTube.

[Abby]

I mean, do you know any of these things?

[Matt]

No. Like the annoying orange Charlie the unicorn.

[Jeremy]

Nope.

[Matt]

The cat Charlie the unicorn. Oh, my goodness.

[Abby]

So it wasn't the same as. It was like, it wasn't like, it wasn't like a, you know, an addictive thing.

[Jeremy]

Like it was so much more compulsive. Yeah, but you guys. I mean, you jumped on the TikTok train. When did. What was your. Yeah.

[Ginger]

How did you start? Were you just bored one night? Started doing dance videos. Put it up.

[Matt]

Okay. Basically, what happened? Long story short, I grew up making videos as a kid for, like, every school project, because when I was 12, I had a tumor on my back that got removed, and I couldn't walk for a while, and I was stuck in a hospital bed, and I couldn't sing and dance and perform. Like, I. I grew up performing my whole life. So my creative outlet was video, and I started learning how to edit and do all that. So in high school, I worked on the TV station for a high school to make stories and edit video and do all that. Took a break from it in college and started noticing Abby watching YouTubers where they were vlogging their life and storytelling their life. It was like making a documentary out of their own life. And I thought, babe, these people, this is, like, their job. They. They just, like, storytell on YouTube and they get paid. Like, I didn't even know that was a thing. And I thought, man, if there's any way we could ever do this, because at the time, we were working at a pizza restaurant together in Springfield, Missouri, and sharing a car because it was the only place that would hire us both at the same time. It was like a new pizza restaurant. So we were sharing a car, working together. And I'm like, I want to work with you. I would love to just be with you as much as possible, because it's. Again, I was obsessed. I'm still obsessed with Abby, but I was obsessed with Abby. Like, to a crazy, Just.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so anyway, started posting YouTube videos in 2019, right after we got married. Nobody watched them. I was sharing them to my Facebook page. My parents would share them to their Facebook pages to try to get me a couple extra views. Maybe we'd get 100 views on these videos. And then when the pandemic hit, we had a bunch of extra time on our hands, and I thought, okay, we.

[Abby]

Both lost our jobs. I was a substitute teacher, and he had an internship. And so we were like, well, we're still in college at this point, so we still had school, but we also were married, so we had bills to pay. And so you can keep going. I just wanted to say that because that was kind of like, the motivation. Like, that was like, we had all of a sudden, so much more time and, like, this weird, really unique opportunity to, like, go all in on something because we had a little bit of savings that were like, we don't have to jump to another job. Also. Finding another job at that time would have been pretty challenging. And so, yeah, so we just lived.

[Matt]

Off our savings for a little bit while we were trying to make YouTube videos. And TikTok dances were huge at the time. So we made a YouTube video behind the scenes of us attempting viral TikTok dances. That was the title we got to do this. We submitted I need to see how they do it. The YouTube video is Abby and I doing these dance trends.

[Abby]

That's the day we downloaded TikTok.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And we didn't have it before then.

[Ginger]

Crazy.

[Matt]

For whatever reason, those TikTok videos blew up. One of them got over a million views. And this is. This is coming from two people that were getting a hundred views on YouTube at the time. So it was very clear that we should keep dancing on TikTok and posting those. And for whatever reason, people liked it. Dude, at the time, we all knew it was this Chinese app. I didn't know if those numbers were real. Yeah. I was like, is this even real? This says a million, but it's fake, right? I didn't know.

[Ginger]

That's insane. Yeah.

[Jeremy]

So, I mean, do you feel like you being theater kids contributed to that?

[Matt]

Like, I think so.

[Abby]

I think it was more so the fact that Matt could dance. Like, yeah, I. We're not, like, any kind of outstanding dancers. Like, but I think it was the fact that, like, Matt could dance and was, like, also just, like, so willing and, like, into it, where I feel like most people had to, like, drag their husbands to do or, like, boyfriends to do stuff. Like, you were so into it.

[Matt]

No, I think a big part. I. Look, I think we make a big team, a good team, but I think Abby is hilarious. And I think her personality is so addictive. And so when we started. When people started discovering our YouTube channel because of TikTok, and when people started watching our TikToks that weren't just dances, they were, you know, cute reaction videos or vlogs, I think it was people realizing what I realized when I married Abby, which is, this person's amazing. I think she's fun. I want to be her friend, you know? And so I think that was a big part of the growth.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, for sure.

[Jeremy]

At what point did it become a job for you? Like, at what point did you guys realize, hey, we could actually make good money off of this?

[Matt]

That was the weird thing, dude, is for me, it was always. I just wanted it so badly to be a side hustle. So it was really frustrating when I was working basically a full time job and getting paid nothing.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So it was really weird how it went from absolutely no pay to within. We started TikTok in April of 2020, and by August of 2020, we had a million followers on TikTok. So at that, by that point, there was enough people going over to our YouTube channel because it was really hard to monetize on TikTok at the time that we were able to support ourselves just on our YouTube channel from AdSense.

[Abby]

It felt real to me after, like that December I graduated from college and then I was like, okay, either I get a job right now, like I was going to be a teacher. Like, I either go get a teaching job or like, we really lean into this. So I feel like when I just decided to just like not apply for a teaching position was when I was like, all right, guess this is what we're doing. We'll ride this out for as long as we can. And we had like the most flexibility you could have at that any stage of life. I was like, well, down the line we'll probably have house payments, we'll have kids, we'll have all these other things like we had. So it was so low risk at that point to like enter it. And so that's kind of was kind of like the perfect storm, I guess. I don't know. Of everything to happen. It never. It still doesn't feel real though, at times. I will be honest. Like even years down the line now I'm like, oh, yeah, that's so cool that this is like what we get to do.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, it's interesting. Like the TikTok and the content that you initially blew up on had no. There was no, like insight into your personal life. Like for you to go and there's a song and you guys dance and people love it. When did it transition to you opening the door to the world into your life and marriage? Which eventually led to a podcast which is now. That's like a 45 minute to 2 hour deep conversation where people are listening in. But what was that?

[Matt]

It's funny because we were sharing our personal life on YouTube, but nobody cared in 2019 when we were getting 100 views. If that.

[Jeremy]

Are those videos still up?

[Matt]

They are still up. You can go back and watch. They're all.

[Jeremy]

We got to clip them in here.

[Matt]

You totally should, dude. All right, we're here. We're in Chicago. We're doing a Vlog. I am handling this camera with. With one hand, even though I wanted to bring my tripod, but Abby told me not to. She thought it looked weird. I will say it did look weird to me holding that thing, but here we are. But, yeah, nobody cared. And for some reason, when art. Yeah. We started going viral on TikTok, people started to care more and more. And then the wedding video that I put out before TikTok was ever a thing that started to get viewership because people thought it was cool that they could watch our wedding video, which I edited myself and my cousin recorded on the camera that we used to start our first. Our YouTube channel. So I think what we noticed early on was people really connected to our vulnerability and authenticity. And so we're like, this is cool. Like, there's a community of people that just like us for us. And I guess we'll just keep doing that. We'll just keep being us. And putting out videos about our life. Moving to Hawaii, eventually finding out we were pregnant with our. Our first kid, and then moving to Arizona, buying a house. We kind of documented all of that. It's like we have this documentary of our life on YouTube.

[Ginger]

Yeah, that's super cool. I feel like you, many years down the road, will be able to look back at those and, like, have the best home video footage ever for your kids. And also, like, I love what you said. Like, the vulnerability side. You guys do, you know, such a good job of, like, just being real. You're just yourselves. Like, when you interview guests on your podcast or share your life on Instagram, it's just the daily stuff. And some people would think, oh, wow, like, that's so mundane, the things that you're doing. You know, like, your kid colored on the wall. I saw, like, yesterday on Instagram, and you're like, what do I do? And so it's like, I like Matt's pleas for help. It's so great.

[Jeremy]

You're like, my favorite genre of your social media content is Matt, like, pleading for help.

[Ginger]

I love it, but it's so normal. It's like everybody can relate to it because that happens to them too. It's like, you know, those moments are sweet. And at the same time, I'd imagine, like you said, you have those conversations. At what point do you say, okay, I love sharing my life? And then are there those moments where you're like, okay, let's just keep this moment just for us as a family as well?

[Abby]

All the time.

[Matt]

Totally. I've been. You talk.

[Abby]

I've been talking No, I like what you're saying.

[Matt]

I want to hear you talk. You're way better talker than me.

[Abby]

No, but I think that's something that we've had to learn, obviously. I shouldn't say obviously, but I feel like through. Like, through error, we haven't done. Like, there's been times where, like, yeah, like Matt said, like, that was probably a little too soon, like, to talk about something. And I think we had a guest on John Deloney a few weeks ago on our podcast, and he said something really, that I resonated with because, like, this is what we've been doing, but we didn't really know how to put words to it. But, like, more recently is, like, not talking about things until it's, like, we've resolved them, healed from them, whatever it is. Because I think it's good to be vulnerable. I mean, I feel like that word is overused in a way, but, like, the sense that, like, we're not putting on any kind of front and, like, we're not also going to. Social media gets criticized a lot for being like, you know, highlights reel. So you have to do that. Find that balance there. And. But also, there's, like, certain times where it's like, okay, if your marriage is more important than, like, you know, you have to be ready. You'd be right within yourselves before you're, like, putting this out there for everyone. And I think we've made mistakes in that area before, and I feel like now we have a really good system for communicating those things. And so now it's like a really quick thing. It's like, oh, what are we gonna talk about? Okay, this. This is a. I don't know. I think it's a little too soon. It's like, all right, move on. Or we even, like, said it by accident, like, okay, great, we have the power of editing. I didn't feel, as I said that was okay to talk about, but in hindsight, I feel like it's a little bit, like, maybe toes the line. Or we can ask our friends, like, does this seem a little bit. So we have a lot more, like, open conversation, dialogue around those things now. And, yeah, I feel like people would be shocked that I would say. I feel like my personal life is rather private, but also, everyone has their own gauge, right? Like, I'm a pretty open person in general, but I don't feel like I'm ever. I feel like we have a pretty. What we want to be private is private, for sure.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

That's an interesting dynamic with reality tv. And now social media is not making your relationships, your marriage, your parenting a commodity. Because in this world you are the product.

[Abby]

Totally.

[Jeremy]

Like she grew up and to the watching world, she's a product. So all of the companies are going, we want to advertise with the Duggars because of all the eyeballs. And so if something happens that's dramatic with an 11 year old, that's a bad attitude, that's gonna be good on tv, well then all of a sudden these relationships become commodity and it becomes income. And so then you're wrestling with, oh man, that'll make good tv. But what you're saying, the that all is a relationship, you know, or a conversation or a real life issue. That is your life. And so how have you guys thought through like, and you said it really well just now, Abi, like the conscientiousness thinking to guard that. But there's an aspect where you go, we don't want to sell our relationships, we don't want to sell our life. And yet there's a motivation at least, well, as we look at why we do what we do on social media of saying, hey, we want to share the hope of Jesus or we want to encourage others who are going through similar things. So there's good motivation. But then there's this balancing act of saying, but we don't want to turn things into a product that shouldn't be. Does that make sense?

[Abby]

Totally.

[Matt]

That makes total sense. Yeah. I think initially for us, the goal that I wanted to share, your intentions could be different. But yeah, there was the aspect of wanting to get to do something creative together and it would be a lot of fun to make videos. I think making videos is a lot of fun. But I wanted to share our story of being the rebels, being the two teenage kids that decided to get married in college.

[Jeremy]

And isn't that funny that that's the rebels now?

[Abby]

Yeah, like the most by the book people.

[Matt]

I don't know but I mean like nobody, none of our friends were even dating at that time. So I was like, I want to share this story because it's unique. And then, okay, now we are married. It's like, okay, let's share the story of two people that have lived in the Midwest their Entire lives, moving 4,000 miles away to an island where you have to drive an hour to go get groceries, you know, so it was just like there was this Hawaii era of our relationship and then it was like the new parent thing. But I think for me my experience would be different than Abby's that was the hardest one. Like, I hadn't really thought through my life past moving to paradise and being married with my best friend. Like, I hadn't really thought about parenthood. And so I'm like documenting everything as it's happening. And just until recently, I've really started to just not share as much and to take more time for me and have more privacy and be like, okay, who am I now? What's my identity? Like, how do I be the best dad for my kids? Who is Matt Howard as a father? And I've been figuring that out because, you know, I. I want to continue to put out good things into the world, but then I also need to protect.

[Jeremy]

Right.

[Matt]

Myself and protect my family at the same time.

[Ginger]

I love that. Yeah. How have you guys thought to do that with your kiddos? Because I think on your social media you share more. So like the back of their head, right? Like not as many close up shots of their face. And like, how have you sought to juggle all that? Because it is different once you have kids. And then you're thinking, wait, like how are we going to steward this platform? Like, what do we want to show people? Because it's sweet to like show precious moments with your kids that you're having. And then also there will be times where it's like meltdowns and like chaos and everybody's about to pull their hair out. And so how have you guys juggled that, like, with kids? Because you are filming so much and you're sharing so much of your lives.

[Abby]

Ultimately, we want. We had like so many conversations between the two of us about it. And it's always evolving too, because I feel like nothing is like staying stable online either. So it's like this is a continuous conversation. But like, ultimately we want people to follow our pages for us if they choose to follow. And not because of our kids for several reasons. And also I think people would be surprised. Like, it may seem like it's like we're always recording, but the truth is it's very, very structured. Like the amount, like when is like we literally call it work. Obviously it doesn't look like work to the most. Like people working like a 9 to 5. We have like our work hours and then we have our. And usually our kids are not present and then, well, they're in the house, but they're not like. Cause we don't show them. So yeah, it's very structured. So it's like really clear. Like, okay, five o'. Clock. It's like dad and mom come down the stairs. And, like, I spent all morning with them. So it's like. It's like we have their hours and there's nothing outside. Like, they're never. How am I explaining this?

[Matt]

Oh, you're doing a great job. I mean. I mean, used to. We. We didn't have structure to it. Yeah, Structure to our days and now.

[Abby]

Or boundaries.

[Ginger]

So good.

[Jeremy]

So talk about boundaries. What do you mean, boundaries? Because you work at home, right? Or you have a studio or something. But are you talking about boundaries with your phone? Are you talking about boundaries with your mental engagement? Are you talking about boundaries with, like, playtime with the kid? What do you mean by boundaries?

[Abby]

We really. It's like, when we're not working, we're not working. Like, that's. It's really hard. Especially, like, from the way Matt's brain operates. It's really hard to, like, dabble in anything. Like, it's like he's all in or all out. And for me, I'm like, I just don't want my kids to see me. Like, if I don't have to. If I'm able to put this boundary up, then I for sure want to. To, like, have the phones away. We don't just, like, have cameras out. Like, they would break them 1,000%, but, like, all that stuff is away. And then, like, if we need to revisit it after bedtime, we can. But actually, even now, we don't do that either. And it's just us time. Like, so. So I think, yeah, boundaries means, like, literally no phones. We'll text, like, family members and friends and stuff. Like, send a text or, like, FaceTime people when the kids are around. But it's not like we're, like, making videos or like, yeah, I love that stuff like that. It's really. It's been really, really refreshing, honestly, because it felt like a. For a while. Social media can feel all consuming if you let it be. And it felt good to, like, reclaim, like, some boundaries.

[Ginger]

That's amazing. Yeah.

[Abby]

And that's happened for, like, a year now. So it's been. We're really.

[Ginger]

That's great. That's so good.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

How did the unplanned podcast start?

[Abby]

Very similar story there.

[Matt]

Pregnant by surprise, unplanned pregnancy. And that happened to be at the same time that we were wanting to start a podcast. We didn't really know. We were like, what should we call the podcast? What's the podcast going to be about? And then, yeah, that happened. And we're like, well, I guess we could just talk about what's going on in our crazy life right now? Because we did not expect for this to happen. So we. I think you came up with the name. You were the one that came up with the name. The unplanned podcast. Yeah, it was Abby. Yeah.

[Abby]

And honestly, the motivation was along similar lines. We were coming to the point where our firstborn was like six months old, and we were like, I don't know, we were starting to, like, think critically about what it would look like to have a career on social media that is about our lifestyle and with a kid. And like, I think it was like, okay, we need to slow this train down, because we don't really. There's a lot of unknowns here. And so then we were like, what's a way that we can still share our lifestyle? Because we loved the community we had built doing that. And we felt so. There were so many benefits from it, and we felt so much encouragement from it. So, like, how can we have that same type of community and same space that has that, like, separation, that degree of separation. And I feel like we found that with, like, podcasting.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And it's been such a blessing in that way because, like, you talk, you have conversation, and then done. Whereas, like, YouTube up to that point had been like, you know, you're showing your entire day.

[Jeremy]

Right.

[Abby]

So, yeah, it was really. And then we were like, this is such a fun time too, because we're about to have a whirlwind with having two babies 13 months apart. And the more we opened up about, like, this happening in our lifestyle, I felt like we were crazy. I was actually really afraid to tell our friends and family that we were pregnant with our second child. We waited a minute because I was like, they're gonna be judging us because I'm low key judging us. Like, this is really close together. Like, okay, they're like, this is.

[Jeremy]

They're thinking we're just gonna have 19 kids.

[Abby]

No, literally, I'm.

[Jeremy]

No, we're on track. You were on track.

[Abby]

Seriously, we are off. We are off the train now. But, yeah, but then the more we talked about, they're like, same, like, same 15 months apart, 13 months apart. And they're like, they're sending messages of hope. They're like, now they're 21 and 22 and they're best friends. Like, it was really cool. And so that was like, a really fun, exciting way to kick it off too. And we're like, we knew we were going to need a change too, because with having two little kids, we're like, we. Something's going to have to shift.

[Jeremy]

Right. I was just thinking, like, as open and vulnerable as you are, which I think is a reason so many people follow. I mean, people have their reasons, but all the different reasons, but one of them has to be just how open and vulnerable you are. But has that ever backfired on you guys? Have you ever felt like, man, I wish we weren't so open?

[Matt]

Oh, so many times. So many times. I think that really started to happen probably about two years ago. It was like the first time that happened. I mean, yeah, I think just like the. When. When you're a little guy and, like, you're up and coming in anything, I think people just want to root for you. Like, it doesn't matter if I'm. If I'm watching sports. I want to root for the underdog. Like, it's fun to see the little guy win, and then once the little guy wins, they're no longer the little guy, they're the winner. And then you want to see someone, like, beat them. You want to see the person who used to be the little guy lose. And so I think after we had had, you know, success and all that, I just think there were probably people out there that didn't like us. And also, I think I am so far from perfect. Perfect. Like, I've said stupid stuff on podcasts before. I've. I've said things that didn't. Like, the wording was bad, you know.

[Abby]

And it didn't even represent how you truly felt. But it's just like.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And so hours of you talking.

[Jeremy]

The Bible says, with many words, transgression is unavoidable.

[Abby]

There you go.

[Jeremy]

One of our prayers. You know, as we're sitting here doing. Doing podcasting, where you talk for an hour and a half. That's a lot of words.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

We say, lord, help us not to say dumb stuff or help us to speak in a way that edifies people.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

Encourages or the people.

[Ginger]

Yeah. And even with, like, the best of intentions, I think what you're saying, too, is, like, you. There will always be critics.

[Jeremy]

There's always angles.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

There's been situations where you're like, oh, like, that's not what I said. That's not what I meant. Or you posted something and you're like, I wish I could just take this down right now.

[Abby]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt]

But I mean, like, with that. With that being said, though, I think one of my regrets was we had, like, we basically publicly talked about an argument we had in our marriage right after the Birth of our second child. And I like, there's things that I did then that I like, regret. And also just perception can get so messy when people are like the he said, she said thing happens. And then something that you did can turn into something that's way bigger than it actually was. And so I just wish that we would have probably had more privacy in that situation. But I was thinking about, hey, if we're vulnerable with this, maybe it'll encourage other people to know that they're not alone.

[Jeremy]

Sure.

[Abby]

And I will say the amount of people. So it's like, yes, there's that side of it, but the amount of people. I literally had face to face conversations with so many women about that episode. Specifically because the postpartum, I always say, me, on day two after having a baby, my record shows I'm going to be psycho. Like, it's just, that's what the record is going to show. And it's going to be the emotions like here and there and here and there and specifically around breastfeeding. Like, it's going to bring out a level of crazy in me that I didn't even know I was capable of. And it's just that history that is history. It's probably going to be the future. You know what I mean? Like, and so the amount of women are like, literally me and my husband had that exact same thing because we both have the same goal, obviously. Not that we're like hashing out this thing, but like, this is probably the thing that we think about the most. Have been like, oh yeah, done that differently. But is like, you both want to see that your child is fed and safe and happy and content. We both had those same goals and we had complete opposite methods for going about that and like directions and you can't predict how you're, how that's going to go until the baby is out and you're like, okay, they're hungry, they're crying. And the way that the crying will react bring like light up reactors in both of you because it's like your child is needing something and they're sending an alert system to you. So yes, in hindsight, for our marriage sake, yeah, probably that was like not the best move actually. Certainly could have would have done that differently in hindsight. But I will say the good sides, I've had so many good conversations with other women that made me feel way less crazy. They're like, oh my gosh, no, that day two, or when it comes to breastfeeding or when it comes to like the baby and you, like, have had this child in your body and meeting all their needs, and all of a sudden they're out and your husband's trying to take care of it. You're like, no, I do this. This was my thing. Like, I did this for nine months. Like, that has been really. That's been really, really cool, too, in community building as well. So there's two sides of that coin.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

I think you would testify to some of the hardest moments where Ginger. Whether it's writing a book or whether it's a podcast. Right. And then when you hear the stories of how people are helped.

[Ginger]

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think there's that side of when you open up and share. There are so many comments. Like, you'll have the haters who come out. They're always there waiting for something to jump on. But then you have so many people who can relate. And I think that that's where it's tough to find that balance when you're in the public space, because you don't want to only show the good. Because then people are like, goodness. Like, is your life just perfect? And there's a side where we need more reality, where people are able to step into your life and see the hard moments as well. Because then they do know that they're not alone. But there's that healthy balance. Right. Like, you struggle and wrestle through it every day.

[Jeremy]

I like what you guys said about resolution earlier, because the counterbalance to. Or the reaction I should say to the picture perfect Instagram. Like, we've all had those trends where you look at their Instagram and you go, oh, my goodness, this couple is aspirational. Like, if only. And then you get the post that says, we're divorcing, and you go, what? Like, I thought you had the picture perfect life. From everything I was seeing, you guys have the perfect life. Well, clearly that was just this facade. And so people respond to that and go, don't just give us the perfectly curated photos. We want what's real. So then you swing the pendulum and then you just get what's real. And so people start, like, boasting in the mess. We're just a mess, and everything's a mess. And how real we are. Oh, yeah, that doesn't help. Because we don't want to be a mess. We want to get out of the mess. We want redemption here. And so I like what you guys said about, hey, we're not going to discuss it until there's resolution. That'll actually help someone.

[Abby]

I think we would Be a good place now to talk about, not, like, rehashing our disagreement, but I think there's a healthy way to be. Like, yeah, we were not seeing eye to eye at this time. Like, it was a hard time. My hormones were all over the place. I think we're at a good place now. Whereas, like, at the time, it's hard to know when you're in it. You're like, wait, I'm not. I'm going through something. And I didn't even real. Like, I don't quite realize it, but I feel like now we, like, would be in a good place to, like, talk about that, and it would be like, okay, yeah. Because I do feel like it can get performative in both ways. And that's something we really, really actively avoid.

[Jeremy]

When Ginger, like, post speaker, postpartum, went through a long time of. Of postpartum depression, really. Right. And in the midst of it, in those months, neither of us are. Know exactly how it's going to resolve or I'm trying to help her. She doesn't know where she needs help. Well, two, three years on, we can talk about it in a way that's.

[Ginger]

Like, yeah, like, I talked about it with people in my close community because that's what I was wrestling through. But I also didn't know what I was going through because it was so dark and so weird. And then on the other side of it, I was like, wow, that was a crazy season. It was so. There was so much happening. And then I opened up and talked about that a lot more recently because even going into having this third pregnancy here with Finn, I was struggling through it again. Just like that fear that starts to come in, like, oh, no, is this gonna happen again? And so I wanted to talk about that with people because I know that it's so real. And like you said, so many emotions are raging, and there's so much happening in that season when you have a new little one. And so. But in that moment when I was there, I wouldn't have talked about it as much because I was just, like, so confused myself as to what was happening. And so I think that's really why it's the resolution side of it. It's not like you always have to wait until that point. But if there's so much conflict and so much is happening in that season, then I think that's wise just to kind of like, okay, let's ride this one out. Let's see where this ends. Is there going to be an end?

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

What's happening here? And then talk about it later?

[Abby]

Yeah, totally.

[Jeremy]

Do you guys like where your story's taken you now? Or would you go back and change things if you could? Or. I mean, as you look back on the decisions you made as a young.

[Abby]

Couple, are you talking about like social media or like.

[Jeremy]

Yeah, like social media. Like these decisions to enter that world, to be vulnerable, to open your life, open your life up. Like going back and Talking to what, 21 year old Matt?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jeremy]

Now would you say, hey, make those same decisions?

[Matt]

Like, do you like, oh, my goodness, yeah. I mean, hindsight is 20 20, right? So looking back, you can see every single thing you did along the way that was wrong. But I mean, this is cliche, but I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it. I think you can, you can just go into this state of insanity trying to think through every single little thing you could have done differently to make things perfect now. But I think at the end of the day, even if, even if we had, like done everything right and I made no mistakes in the past, like, where am I going with this right now? I'm just, I'm just not a perfect dude. Like, I just, I can't expect for myself to be perfect. And so I just need to learn from the mistakes that I have made. And I think, I think that at least the season I'm in right now is just really taking on the role of fatherhood and what it means to be a dad and what it means to love my kids and what it means to spend intentional quality time with them when before I was all thinking about our business and the social media and storytelling and it was all things that I really loved while still being.

[Abby]

One of the most active fathers. Like, seriously.

[Jeremy]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But now it's like, I truly have put all that below the fatherhood thing, you know, and the husband thing, because those things are so much more important.

[Abby]

I will say too, this whole process, like, it really has you think critically about where your identity lies and like, who, who am I? Who are we? What. What do we stand for? What are we? Like, that has been something that has, like, it's like fast tracked, that process. I would say like 100x.

[Matt]

Oh yeah. You can't be the best at everything. You can't be the best dad and husband while you're being the best podcaster and YouTuber and TikToker or what, Whatever. Insert blank, right? Whatever it is that your aspirations are outside of being a family man or family woman, you cannot be the best at everything. And having that expectation is Just gonna exhaust you and stress you out. And so I think what I'm realizing is you just have to have your priorities straight. And there's a time, right. Like, let's say someone is okay. If I was in the position right now where we are really struggling to put food on the table for our kids and I need to work, you know, 80 hours a week so that we can just provide for our kids, yeah, that would be totally okay for me to. Maybe I wouldn't be spending quality time with them, but I'd be making sure that we're providing food and support for them. But that would just be for a season. Right. So I think in life, you just have to. You have to really think through what actually matters. And if you have a season of grinding, okay, that's fine. But that comes to a close eventually.

[Ginger]

Yeah, that's wisdom right there.

[Jeremy]

What are some of the biggest lessons that this season of life is teaching you with parenting? I mean, because you've got. How old are your kids right now?

[Abby]

One and two.

[Jeremy]

Two. So that's. What's that? Are we good? Oh, hey, baby girl.

[Abby]

Alex said it's okay, but.

[Ginger]

Oh, yeah, you know what?

[Abby]

Evie wants you to.

[Matt]

Oh, really?

[Ginger]

Okay, thank you.

[Jeremy]

Okay, we'll. We'll wrap up in a couple minutes. Okay.

[Abby]

So Alex said it's okay to ask. Oh, yes, that's fine. That's great. Thank you.

[Jeremy]

Okay, tell her we'll be down in a couple minutes.

[Ginger]

We'll come quick.

[Matt]

Aw, that's so sweet. You guys are so much better at this that I'm like. I'm trying to come up with, like, a coherent sentence over here while I'm talking about.

[Jeremy]

Oh, no. Well, I sometimes ask very long questions. Mark has told me to shorten my questions. I'll go on, like, a six minute question. The person's like, what's the question? Yeah, it is, right? It's helpful. So at this stage in life, you got a one and a two year old. You guys are learning all the lessons. We're right there with you. We're just a couple years in terms of the age of the kids. But what's next for Matt, Abby? What's next for the Howards? Yeah, what's. What's the next few years looking like for you guys?

[Abby]

Gosh, I feel like we're just in a season where every single day we're just, like, soaking it up. And I can, like, truly tell you, every single day is just so fun with our kids right now. They're in, like, we have, like, our Little routine. I feel like they the best. The thing that I'm learning the most from them is how to speak to their like, their level. I think about, like I told Matt, I'm like, think about a day when a dumb, dumb sucker isn't going to change. Like tears, like literal meltdown sadness from something happening or a toy getting broken to like literally the peak joy in the world. So I'm like, this is only for a short season, that this will fix everything. This little tiny sucker. And so we're just like, I don't know the silly things. It's really, really fun and they love a routine. So I feel like a lot of our days kind of do look the exact same, but it's really fun. What would you say that?

[Matt]

Yeah, I think you said it perfectly. We're just in this season of discovering what it is to be a family of four. And we just finished a pool in our backyard. So I've been working on swimming with my 2 year old and he just like, he gets out of the pool and he's just beaming. He's so proud of himself for being able to jump off the edge and then swim back and pull himself out. And it's just so cool to watch the development take place for both of our boys. So I, I just love, I mean and watching Abby be a mom, oh my goodness, it's. She is the best mom to our kids.

[Abby]

I say watching Matt be a dad too. They, they literally look at Matt like I'm like, you have the advantage we have boys. Like you are their hero and you can just see that. It's so cool. It's really fun. It honestly like makes you fall in love even more. Just seeing like your kids interact with your like, ah, it's, it's just a feeling I never thought like I was like, I know it's gonna be good, but it's like, it's like actually even better.

[Matt]

Yeah. And our one year old actually let me read books to him now. He actually wants to sit in my lap and just read book.

[Abby]

After he used to not be able to sit still.

[Matt]

Couldn't sit still two seconds a couple months ago. But now he is obsessed with books.

[Abby]

It's really cute.

[Ginger]

That's so fun.

[Jeremy]

It's a sweet season.

[Matt]

I love it.

[Abby]

It's really sweet.

[Jeremy]

We are so grateful for you guys. You guys are such dear friends and so happy for you. We're rooting you on from out here in Los Angeles as you guys are in the heat of Arizona. Dang.

[Ginger]

I don't know how you do it there.

[Jeremy]

We'll be praying for you this summer.

[Ginger]

Thank you.

[Abby]

Thank you. We'll see you in the fall, maybe. Maybe winter.

[Ginger]

For sure.

[Jeremy]

Thanks for coming out. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[Ginger]

Yay.

[Abby]

Thank you guys so much.

[Jeremy]

It's always a pleas 50th podcast.

[Matt]

Let's go.

[Abby]

What an honor.

[Jeremy]

Yeah. You guys are the best.

[Abby]

Awesome.

[Jeremy]

All right, well, guys, thanks for hanging out. And what do we do? Like and subscribe. Right.

[Abby]

Thanks.

[Ginger]

We'll see you next time.

[Jeremy]

See you next week.

[Matt]

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[Jeremy]

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[Abby]

If you've ever thought work could be better than this, you're right.

[Matt]

We were taught work had to look one way, grind harder, climb the ladder, keep your head down. But it doesn't have to be like that.

[Abby]

We're Amanda and Lizzie, partners in life and work.

[Matt]

And we host.

[Abby]

Host.

[Matt]

You got a minute?

[Ginger]

A weekly podcast about how people actually experience work.

[Matt]

We talk through what's hard, what's working, and what might actually make a difference.

[Abby]

Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.