The Dangerous Theology Behind These Scandals

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast

Episode: "The Dangerous Theology Behind These Scandals"

Date: April 22, 2026
Hosts: Jinger Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and theologically engaged episode, Jinger and Jeremy Vuolo confront the recurring scandals and abuses associated with Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP)—an organization that heavily shaped Jinger’s upbringing and worldview. Triggered by recent headlines involving a member of Jinger's family, they examine why such scandals keep surfacing in communities tied to fundamentalist teachings, focusing specifically on how dangerous or wrong theology breeds secrecy, shame, abuse, and ultimately, devastation. Using biblical texts, personal testimony, and direct critique, they trace the devastating real-world impact of legalism, isolationism, shame-based purity culture, and asceticism within Gothard’s system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scandal Cycle: Why Does It Keep Happening?

• Host Reflection:
  • Jinger and Jeremy acknowledge that many outsiders and even survivors wonder why abuse scandals persist within particular subcultures linked to authoritarian religious leaders like Bill Gothard.
  • Jeremy underscores the urgency: “Ideas have consequences, and if you have wrong theology, it can have devastating consequences.” (04:07)
• Personal Touch:
  • Jinger, referencing her family's recent public struggles, shares that even they were shocked by fresh allegations. The wounds, she notes, are reopened with each headline.
• Distinguishing Christianity from Cultish Systems:
  • Jeremy insists: “Just because you say [something] is Christianity doesn’t make it true... When you see the fruit it produces is anything but what Jesus promises... it’s proven not to be wisdom.” (06:08)

2. What Was Bill Gothard Teaching?

• Movement Roots:
  • Jinger briefly outlines Gothard’s program, rooted in the 60s–70s, promising that adherence to his “seven basic life principles” guaranteed success and protection.
    • “A lot of families were well-meaning... they thought, ‘I’m going to protect my family by putting up these very concrete rules for my kids... to shield our kids from the outside world.’” (07:13)
• The Role of Fear and Isolation:
  • Jeremy points out: “People banked their souls on it... And then decades later, it produced bad fruit... now lives are crumbling.” (08:05)
  • Jinger describes a culture where fear, especially of misstepping or breaking rules unwittingly, pervaded daily life. (14:32)

3. Theology, Accountability, and Abuse

• No Excuses for Abusers:
  • Jeremy clarifies that theological failures do not remove personal responsibility for abuse: “Everyone is responsible for their actions... The sword of justice is given to the government to punish evildoers. That’s Romans 13.” (09:08)
• Explaining Contributing Factors:
  • However, Jeremy unpacks how theology and culture can enable abuse: “They don’t come out of a vacuum... there are contributing factors.” (09:31)
  • Jinger and Jeremy highlight Gothard’s tendency to minimize or excuse abusers while blaming victims, especially women.

4. Asceticism, Isolationism, and the Problem of ‘Out There’ Sin

• Bad Theology About Sin:
  • Jeremy critiques Gothard’s belief that sin is “out there” in the world and can be avoided by hyper-isolating. He notes:
    • “Gothard and his adherents literally believed: we need to isolate ourselves physically...we are going to separate ourselves...like the Amish.” (13:16)
  • Jinger adds, “You have to have a way to keep [kids] keeping the rules. And the tactic that was used was fear—not a proper fear of God, but one that was always looking for ways that God was going to smite you.” (14:32)
• Consequences of Isolation:
  • Jeremy warns, “What it actually cultivates is secrecy within the home, isolation. But you combine that with... They miss the reality that sinfulness... is a heart issue, not an out there issue.” (15:42)

5. Purity Culture and Its Harm

• Rules and Shame around Sexuality:
  • Jinger recounts the layering of “courtships” and long-term “single service commitments” as legalistic traps, and the strict rules around dating, touching, and modesty.
  • Jeremy: “These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.” (Colossians 2:23 quoted at 30:27)
• Victim-Blaming:
  • Jeremy reads from actual Gothard material which blames victims of abuse for “immodest dress” or being outside parental authority.
  • Jinger: “That is so insane. And it’s on the victim. He puts all that on the victim because you caused that person to do that crime.” (35:59)

6. How Real Christianity Approaches Sin and Holiness

• A New Heart, Not New Rules:
  • Jeremy, using Colossians and Ezekiel, argues that genuine Christianity promises inner transformation, not external rule-keeping:
    • “The promise of the Christian faith isn’t set up all these barriers and rules… No, I’m going to give you a new heart.” (30:26)
• Paul’s Model: Living in the World, Not Fleeing It:
  • Using the church in Corinth as an example, Jeremy shows that Paul never told Christians “leave Corinth” (the epicenter of immorality), but rather urges them to remember their union with Christ. (39:41)
    • “He never says, ‘leave Corinth’... Instead, over and over, he appeals to the reality that they’re united to Jesus.” (40:40)

7. The Damaging Aftermath

• Tangible Effects on Women:
  • Jinger vulnerably describes her inherited shame: “I just wish I didn’t have any shape at all... I thought, that’s how I’m gonna honor God.” (38:15)
  • Jeremy counters: “God made you with a body. It’s beautiful. You don’t have to put a box around it.” (37:57)
• Perpetuating Abuse:
  • The effects of making women responsible for men’s actions foster secrecy, shame, and failure to process healthy sexuality.
  • “You can’t get rid of women in your life. So it becomes blame against them, and then it actually results in... there’s a shame that comes with the woman who’s almost ashamed that you have a body.” (37:24)

8. Final Biblical Appeal: Return to Christ, Not Rules

• Central Message:
  • Jeremy’s summary: “You want to battle sin in your life... you need a new heart... Bill Gothard is not a Christian. He did not teach Christianity, and the result is devastating. Are there Christians among [followers]? Yes. But that is not Christianity.” (44:41)
• Hope and Call to Action:
  • “If you don’t like the fruit that you’re seeing amongst those who claim to be Christians, go to Christ himself and you’ll see the fruit. You’ll see the truth.” (46:59)
• Jinger’s Gratitude:
  • “I think this has needed to be said for a long time and I'm glad that you have the clarity to say it right now.” (45:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jeremy: “Ideas have consequences, and if you have wrong theology, it can have devastating consequences.” (04:07)
• Jeremy: “Just because you say [something] is Christianity doesn’t make it true... It’s proven not to be wisdom.” (06:08)
• Jinger: “A lot of families were well-meaning…they thought, ‘I’m going to protect my family by putting up these very concrete rules... to shield our kids from the outside world.’” (07:13)
• Jeremy (on Colossians 2:23): “These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion... but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.” (30:27)
• Jeremy (quoting Gothard material): “A result of defrauding by immodest dress, indecent exposure…” (35:59)
• Jinger, on body shame: “I just wish I didn’t have any shape at all... I thought, that’s how I’m gonna honor God.” (38:15)
• Jeremy: “You want to battle sin in your life… you need a new heart.” (44:41)
• Jeremy (on returning to the source): “If you don’t like the fruit... among those who claim to be Christians, go to Christ himself and you’ll see the truth.” (46:59)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00 — The recurring question: “Why does this keep happening?”
• 04:00 — Jeremy lays out the podcast's thesis: Theology shapes everything.
• 06:00 — Defining false Christianity vs. true Christianity.
• 07:13 — Jinger outlines Gothard’s seven basic life principles and motivations for joining the movement.
• 13:16 — The dangers of isolationism and fear-based religion.
• 14:32 — Jinger describes the pervading atmosphere of fear and legalism.
• 30:26 — Deep dive into Colossians 2 and why rules don’t change the heart.
• 35:59 — Reading Gothard’s teaching on victim-blaming in abuse.
• 38:15 — Jinger’s testimony about inherited body shame.
• 40:40 — New Testament examples: Paul, Corinth, and Christ-centric transformation.
• 44:41 — Jeremy’s final theological summary and clarification that Gothard’s teachings are not Christian.
• 46:59 — Call to listeners: Go to the original sources—Scripture and Christ Himself.

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Tone and Style

The episode is deeply empathetic, urgent, and honest, combining Jeremy’s theological depth with Jinger’s vulnerable personal testimony. The hosts express righteous anger at destructive theological systems, heartfelt compassion for survivors, and unwavering hope in the transforming message of Christianity.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a thorough understanding of the episode’s content, especially those considering the interplay between theology, abuse, and healing.

Transcript

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There's a question that keeps coming up, and I think rightly so. People are asking, why does this keep happening?

[B]

I think that this has needed to be said for a long time.

[C]

There are contributing factors. And when it comes to the theology that was promoted, and then you look at Gothard's life and you look at the over 30 accounts of accusation brought against him. I mean, it was like rampant abuse. And then when it comes to a subject like sex, they're given and this is another skewed perspective. It's unclean, it's impure, it's not to be spoken of, it's pushed out. But you know, what it actually cultivates is secrecy within the home. Isolation. And so Gothard got it completely wrong. And so generations of children are being raised thinking, if I can rely on the human flesh and, and my own ideas and, you know, severity to my body, I'll be pure and holy. And then all of these desires come up and they don't know how to deal with them. And then they become so severe, they spend their life in jail because they've never gotten to the root of the issue, which is you need a new heart. Welcome back to another episode of the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. And today we are taking up a topic which we've actually kind of circled around the last few weeks. And in light of recent headlines and everything that we've seen with your brother Joe, which has reopened some wounds of past experiences, past headlines, there's a question that keeps coming up, and I think rightly so. People are asking, why does this keep happening? We don't have every answer for that. We were just as caught off guard with that news as anyone else regarding Joe. And yet ideas have consequences. And for the last several years, you've been very outspoken, I think together we have been, about the dangerous theology of Bill Gothard and the Institute of Basic Life Principles, which was deeply impactful to your family and built a lot of how life was approached. And I think this is another opportunity to say it's pivotal that we're very careful what we believe, who we listen to. Theology has consequences, and if you have wrong theology, it can have devastating consequences. And I think some people might say, ginger, sorry, I'm dominating this intro again, but so jump in whenever you feel

[B]

like you want to jump in.

[C]

But I think some people would say we don't need to get theological right now. This isn't a theology thing. No, no, no. How you view God directly impacts how you view yourself, which impacts how you view sin, which impacts how you view evil, which impacts how you view sexuality, which impacts how you view loving one another, stealing life together. In community worship, all of life is impacted by your ideas. Ideas have consequences. And Bill Gothard had dangerous teaching about who God is. It's teaching that you're still, you know, from time to time, you find yourself, like, unraveling still in your own heart. He had dangerous teaching about what a man is, what a woman is for, how to approach life and godliness and how to pursue holiness, what is salvation. Dangerous ideas, and they have consequences. It was Jesus who says, wisdom is justified by her deeds. So Matthew 11, I think it's Matthew 11, actually. I can check it here. But the religious leaders are calling Jesus a drunkard and a glutton. And he doesn't say, yeah, the Son of Man came eating and drinking. They say, look at him, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. Jesus doesn't go, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I don't like to eat, or I don't drink wine. Or he goes, wisdom is justified by her deeds. What I am will be evident in what I do and the fruit that's produced in my life. And so I guess I'm saying all this to say it's good and right that people look at the claims of a teacher who says, I speak for God, like you often say, but didn't really, and go, you claim to speak for God. You claim that this is Christianity, which I would argue is not Christianity at all.

[B]

There are some Christians in it, yes, there are a lot of Christians probably in it, yes. But it does not make that Christianity.

[C]

And here's the interesting thing, and I Think some of our viewers might be surprised to hear this. We're going to go to a passage, there's multiple, but specifically one which very explicitly says, that's not Christianity, it has nothing to do with Christ. Christianity is consumed with Christ. So even though a teacher like Bill Gothard might say, and its adherents, this is Christianity, no, son, just because you say that doesn't make it true. And when you see the fruit of it produces anything but what Jesus promises it will produce. Jesus promises life. Jesus promises peace, gentleness, self control. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control. And against such things there is no law. When you see as a pattern in a movement, the opposite wisdom is justified by her deeds or she's. It's proven to not be wisdom.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think for anybody who's listening, who is never heard of, Bill Gothard doesn't know what we're talking about at all. Bill Gothard had what we'd say now, like a movement, I guess, in the 60s and 70s where he came around saying that if you follow his rules, these basic principles. Yeah, seven basic life principles, that your life is going to be a success and if you don't, then it's going to be one disaster after another. And a lot of families were well meaning when they entered that setting. They thought, okay, I'm going to protect my family by putting up these very concrete rules for my kids to keep them safe, to keep them in, to have friends that are going to be identical to us, that will shield our kids from the outside world almost and let them be a light to the nations.

[C]

And here's where those ideas are so devastating is a lecture in front of an audience isn't just a lecture in front of an audience. It's why Jesus, or James, the half brother Jesus says, not many of you ought to become teachers because you'll be held to a stricter judgment. People looked at Bill Gothard's teachings and bet their lives on it. And they said, if we follow this man who said at points, I've got the key to the Christian life. And then it wasn't Christ the key, it was his rules, which we'll see are unbiblical. But people banked their souls on it, and they banked the souls of their children on it. So they said, we're going to raise our kids in accordance with these teachings. And then decades later, it produced bad fruit. And decades later it was exposed as false and lies and lives are crumbling. Now, I'll say This, you know, in reference to this direct topic regarding your brother, everyone is responsible for their actions. So none of this is an excuse to say, oh, but the theology was poor, therefore someone's not responsible for their actions. No, we fully, as the Bible teaches, the sword of justice is given to the government to punish evildoers. That's Romans 13. So if you ever hear a Christian like Bill Gothard, actually, who would try to go easy on perpetrators of horrible

[B]

abuse, you said a Christian like Bill Gothard, but you're not saying he, oh,

[C]

he claims to be a Christian. Right. So he's saying, I'm a Christian. And then he says, oh, but we shouldn't punish abusers. I could go to anywhere in the Bible and I'll show you the opposite. Judgment is given to the government to punish evildoers. And so in, in talking about the theology, we're not creating an excuse and say, oh, however, I will say this. Young men specifically, but everybody but young men specifically, they're, they, they don't just come out of a vacuum behaving a certain way. There are contributing factors. And when it comes to the theology that was promoted, and then you look at Gothard's life and you look at the over 30 accounts of accusation brought against him and his brother and others in that teaching where, I mean, it was like rampant abuse. In this form of abuse, you start to go, okay, something that they're believing, teaching, living by is producing this and it's not good.

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[B]

Now back to the episode.

[C]

And so like we kind of said at the start, we're not claiming to have every answer of everything. And yet we can examine the teachings and how it is so negatively affects people. And I really think it begins here, having a wrong understanding of sin, thinking that sin is something out there that we need to shield ourselves from. But it's the big bad world that if we can isolate ourselves enough, we'll be safe. And here's the thing is some people could think of that as a philosophy, but they would struggle to see it borne out because we live amongst each other in the big bad world. Right. Gothard and his adherents literally believed like, oh no, we need to isolate ourselves physically. Like we need to all separate cut off Internet, no television, no secular music. We're not going to dress like the world. We're not going to eat like the world, we're not going to drink like the world, we're not going to spend time with the world. We are going to separate ourselves. Kind of like the Amish that we talked about with my dad.

[B]

Yeah, there were so many similarities. And that's where he thought, if you can just get your kids in this safe place, teach them these rules. And not just teach them the rules, but you have to have a way to keep them keeping the rules. And the tactic that was used was fear and fear of God, but it wasn't a proper fear of God because there's an awe and reverence of God realizing how powerful he is. But it was a different fear. It was one that was looking for ways that God was going to smite you or take you out if you misstepped. Even for one, like disobeying one of Bill Gothard's rules that he made and not knowing that you disobeyed a rule.

[C]

Yeah. If you put yourself under a worldly influence, God's going to punish you by just unleashing hell on you. You're going to have.

[B]

You could be in a car accident. It's very superstitious, like something could happen. So he would tell stories of, you know, a business deal that someone did. And he would tell some of these stories. His, his other friend would also tell stories.

[C]

Jim Simmons. Yeah, he was good at those stories. Those, those ones. I remember listening. So I listened to the whole financial freedom seminar. It's 20 lectures over 20 hours. And they get you with these stories and you're so moved by it. And I'll never forget the one where a guy bought a strip mall and was. It was like a really good investment and he didn't go into debt for it and he was leasing it out to these businesses and all of a sudden he was. Businesses started to tank and he was on the verge of bankruptcy and he's trying to figure out what, you know, what it was. One of the businesses had a liquor license and he didn't know he was violating a principle and so God was punishing him for that. So he got rid of that client and then everything went better. And you go, wow, this anecdote of, you know, near disaster, that is not how God works. Right. And that's a made up rule, by the way, from Gothard or Jim Simmons. But they have this view of sin that like, you have to isolate yourself from what's big and bad out there and protect yourself under this umbrella of authority. In the home. And then there everything will be safe so we won't be invaded by the world. We don't need Internet, we don't need tv, we don't need, you know, a purple haired barista who's gonna, you know, bring worldliness into my life. And everything's pushed out and in there there's safety. But you know, what it actually cultivates is secrecy within the home, isolation. But you combine that with this, and this is the major theological miss there. They miss the reality that sinfulness or human rebellion against beauty and goodness is a heart issue, not an out there issue. And so it's like the Amish where you go, wow, the Amish must be really holy because they are so cut off from any bad influences. And then you get an insider's perspective, like my dad, who's served for two decades amongst the Amish, and you go, oh, there's dark, dark, dark deviants amongst the Amish. Where did it come from? Did someone have a cell phone? Did someone have Disney? Did someone have Disney plus? Because somehow it got in there. No, it was always there. It's called the heart, which is why Christianity is a heart religion. It's dealing with a transformation of the heart. But this view actually has a name. It's called asceticism. So Bill Gothard was an ascetic and he approached holiness and salvation through an ascetic lens, which is this belief that we can attain holiness and purity by setting up external boundaries, removing bad influences from our lives. Does that make sense? So it's literally let's all live together, cut off outside influence and together we'll be safe. And it never works.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't. Because when you are relying on the, you're relying on yourself really, and you're propping yourself up with these mammy rules, well, it's just a matter of time before that's all going to come crumbling down. And that's where the difference between that and Christianity is that when you are walking with God, the spirit of God is working within you and causing you to walk in his ways.

[C]

Ezekiel 36.

[B]

It's different than this. Like you're trying. And yes, Christians do fall and fail. It doesn't mean that they're sinless Christians. We are not sinless, we are sinful people. But there's a difference because it's not us just fighting, you know. Well, we are fighting, but we're like not striving for that in our own strength.

[C]

Right?

[B]

But it's, it's through the work of Christ in our hearts and the love of Christ constrains us 100%.

[C]

That. That's it. And so here's the thing that. And okay, let me just apologize to our listeners. I'm talking a little bit, a lot, a bit today, and I really. I don't want to. I don't want to talk, talk, talk like crazy. But I like it when you talk. Well, I like it when you talk. So that we have a. We have, we're at an impasse. But there I do have a sense like this has kind of been, like, welling up inside of me. And the text that has really been, like, exploding has been the book of Colossians, specifically Colossians chapter two. Because what hurts me or any Christian really, is to see headlines and for people to go see. That's what Christianity produces and to know, no, it's Christianity's the opposite of that. So a little Bible chat here. But Colossians is this incredible New Testament book written by the apostle Paul. And he begins this book writing to these Christians in Colossae who had all of these heresies coming amongst them. They had Bill Gothards walking amongst them who talked really smooth. He talks about that. And they had really plausible explanations for how to do the Christian life. And he actually warns them. He says in verse, in chapter two, verse four, I don't want anyone to delude you with plausible arguments. He says, in Christ, are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden. And so he starts the book by saying, Jesus is supreme. He. He's the Son of God. He is God in the flesh. He's the creator of the universe. The opening chapter of Colossians is just like a tour de force of who Jesus is. But he says all this because he says, some people are coming amongst you and they're talking and it seems to make sense, but everything they say, I mean, listen to what Paul says. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. If you want a Bible verse that calls out Bill Gothard, that's it.

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[B]

And you probably were like, I actually was thinking, wait, you just said that? That's pretty crazy. Because I always looked at him as a Bible teacher, and he was somebody that I thought, wow. Like, I probably would have thought he was a prophet sent from God to tell us these teachings. And I wasn't a charismatic somebody who just believed everybody was a prophet who told me a word from God. But I would have looked at him more because he has all the answers to life's problems. And it seemed so, like, real to me that his principles were going to work. And I would see people with, you know, like, young people who are rebellious in families, and I would be like, it's such a pity because I know what's wrong with them. And I could diagnose all these problems. I had all of it memorized. Like, I knew the answer for every problem. And if it was marriage issues, if it was financial issues, I knew that, oh, they probably have debt, or they maybe they didn't honor God in this way or that way. And I could look at people's lives and really judging them based on what I thought I knew about their life because of how their life was breaking down. They probably didn't follow all the principles correctly.

[C]

And his principles were plausible. Plausible means, like, yeah, they make sense. So you hear those used to make sense. But you could see, like, logic, the logical clearance, like, okay, if A is true and B and C. But what Paul's warning of is going to, yeah, there can be smooth talking cats who are up in a pulpit in a stadium filled with 10,000 people, but just because it's plausible. He says it's philosophical, but it's empty and it's deceitful and it's according to human tradition, not according to Christ. I realized that, you know, as I was listening to all those Bill Gothard teachings, here's this proposed teacher. He's got, you know, hundreds of hours of teaching, and I listened to 60 plus of those hours, and I'm going, where's Jesus? Like, where's Jesus isn't in any of this. And when he says something like, I've got the key to unlock the Christian life. And then he goes on to say, anything but Jesus, you go, you might have a key to something, but it ain't the Christian life. Because the Christian life is about Christ. And that's Paul in Colossians. He, he's obsessed with Jesus and he goes, it's got to be according to Christ. And so this is where it gets really interesting. Paul goes on to say he's talking about Jesus, but he actually goes on to address the issues of sin, even sexual deviance and disobedience, like he names it. He's going to, in chapter three, talk about sexual morality, impurity, passion, evil desire, covetousness, idolatry. He says on account of these things, the wrath of God is coming. Think of evil desire and everything that entails. Paul's being graphic but. Well, he's being pointed but not graphic. He's saying, oh yeah, we're going to deal with that. Now how do you battle evil desire? Well, at the end of chapter two, listen to this, he says, if with Christ you die to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations, do not handle, do not taste, do not touch, referring to things that all perish as they're used according to human precepts and teachings. That's Gothard.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. He would, he would often have so many rules, even around courtship. So there were courtships instead of traditional dating. And he even had times where he would tell people, okay, you like he, he pushed a single service commitment, which is where you are committing before God to stay single, to not date, to not court anybody for a certain number of years. So some people would be like 2 years, 5 years, 10 years long commitments people would make, which is just completely wrong. And they would make these commitments and then have to hold to it. And then he would be like, okay, now when you're courting, you have to follow all these rules for purity. And in the Christian life, like we are all about purity because God's word speaks to that. But there's a difference in the rules based thinking. This is what's going to keep you safe, this is what's going to keep you from falling into sin is by having these external rules. So have a chaperone at all times

[C]

and don't hold hands until you're engaged,

[B]

don't kiss until you're married.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Whatever it was. Now some of those may have not been his exact rules. They were from other people that adapted them.

[C]

But the, the meth Method.

[B]

Method, Methodology.

[C]

The method. Methodology. Methodology.

[B]

It's a long word. Surprised you got that one out combined

[C]

like three or four. The methodology. Methodology, Methodology. There it is.

[B]

It's the method.

[C]

Yeah, the method. I'll stick with the method. Yeah, now I can get that. The method was one of and like the aesthetic. Relying on rules to keep me pure. Don't taste, don't handle, don't touch. Now listen to what Paul says. When I say he hits it like spot on. He hits it spot on. These have indeed an appearance of wisdom. This is Colossians 2:23, an appearance of wisdom in promoting self made religion, which is what Gotthard is, and asceticism and severity to the body. But they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. So he says it appears really wise to go. If we disconnect from the Internet, have no technology, live alone and aren't impacted by the world, we will be holy. Hey, pretty good case for that. You know what? I think that could be the way it looks good. Don't taste, don't handle, don't touch. And Paul says, can I just give you a tip? Has no power in stopping the indulgence, the craving of the flesh. Again, heart issue, Evil passion comes from here. Jesus says it's not what goes into a man that defiles him, it's what comes out of the man. For out of the mouth speaks the intentions of the heart, which is why Christianity, you quoted Ezekiel 36 earlier. I will give you a new heart. I will put right desires in you. I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, to be careful, to obey all my commands. The promise of the Christian faith isn't we're going to set up all these barriers and rules that are going to suppress desire and conform you to Jesusness. No, I'm going to give you a new heart. Obedience from the heart. Read Romans 6, Romans 8, obedience from the heart, where I want to serve God. And so if you want to understand what false ascetic religion is, whether it's an IBLP cult or the Amish or any other form of asceticism that says if I can only get rid of every bad influence around me, I'll be holy. Paul says, yeah, it appears wise has no power. So then you say, well what does have power? Chapter three, verse one. If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. He's talking about the old you is dead, the new you is raised with Christ. When Christ, who is your life, appears, you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you? Sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire. Oh, so we are called to put earth, evil passions to death? Yes. How? Not by cutting off Internet access, but by setting your mind on Christ. And so here's where it comes back to the practical. You have young people who are growing up in a culture and a society in a theology that is telling them those evil passions, and out there, you suppress them, you ignore them, you have nothing to do with them, and by that you'll attain purity. And then when it comes to a subject like sex, they're given, and this is another skewed perspective, it's unclean, it's impure, it's not to be spoken of, it's pushed out. And then when you look at the subject of modesty, this is a whole other subject, the ascetic approach to sexual morality. With modesty, you know what it says? The woman and her body is the source of lust. And so if you can't get rid of the women, you cover them up. And if they're not covered up, it's their fault that the man falls into sin. And I'll prove this to you from Gothard's own teaching. This is his teaching on this, available on the Internet. It's called counseling regarding sexual abuse. And it's talking to, how do you counsel a young woman who's been abused and the whole thing is skewed. He shows the parts of our being, body, emotions, will, mind, spirit. And he says which is the most important? And he's trying to get the person to deduce, well, my spirit is most important. My body really doesn't matter that much. So if my body is damaged in that way, it's the least. It's the least significant part of me. So it's downplaying the crime. Right. Which is why you could see a response to it being like, yeah, it's not a major deal, because that's the least important part about you. Your body's going to go into the ground. It's your spirit that's valuable. But then listen to this. Why did God let it happen? A result of defrauding by immodest stress, indecent exposure, being out from the protection of your parents, being with evil friends.

[B]

That is just. That is so insane. And it's on the victim. He puts all that on the victim because you caused that person to do that crime.

[C]

Because the source of their evil passion.

[B]

I remembered seeing that the source of

[C]

their evil passion is your body, and you didn't cover it up. It's on you. So it makes young men who are deviant in their behavior victims of the woman's body. When you go, it's exactly the reverse. Right. But you would get to that when you go, if sin's not in here, it must be caused by an external factor. The woman's body is the cause. Jesus goes, nope, it's the heart. Your heart is the cause. We have sinful hearts, and so we've got to deal with the heart. And the only way to deal with that is by Christ giving you a new one. So it's this Christ obsession that ought to be cultivated, this looking to Christ as our Savior and our sanctifier, not looking around for excuses and then trying to cut those off. And the sad reality is you can't get rid of women in your life. And so it becomes blame against them, and then it actually results in. And you and I have talked about this a lot. There's a shame that comes with the woman who's almost ashamed that you have a body.

[B]

Yeah. Ashamed of, like, it's. It's crazy. I think that was one of my big insecurities, too. I. I was. I struggled with that. I think I just wish I didn't have any shape at all, you know, Any form or shape. Because I was like, that's just. Then I could feel more comfortable.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, just not having to worry about, like, even curves that are natural for every woman to have.

[C]

I remember telling you, like, ginger, you have a body.

[B]

You're like, it's fine.

[C]

God made you with a body.

[B]

It's beautiful.

[C]

You don't have to put a box around it.

[B]

Yes. And I remember being so insecure about that because I felt like I just basically wanted to wear a potato sack. Because I thought, that's how I'm gonna honor God.

[C]

And here's where, again, ideas have consequences. Anthropology is the term for the study of man. Right. Or the study of person. You know, what modesty, the purity culture of modesty actually does is deduces a woman to a singular purpose as a sexual object. That's what you're for. And so you've got to cover yourself up, and you go, that's not what a woman is for. It's not even what her body is for. She's an image bearer made in the image of God to reflect him and in all of his beauty and his. His attributes of creativity. And the design of the imago day stamped upon the woman, she is not deduced to an object. But that sort of teaching sees the woman as a threat, and so it suppresses the woman. And it also suppresses the, the. The. The young man's processing of desire. Because hormones are real. They're not talked about. They're not talked to about it. They're told that's dirty and wrong and it's just suppressed. And here's the danger. And this is where the adults in the room fail the children when they don't adequately approach that subject. Because we are sexual beings and we need to be. We need to have an understanding of. Of what's pure and holy and right about how God made us and what's to be avoided. Because there's God's the one who made us that way. But when that's suppressed, I'll tell you what happens. Those young men don't stop asking questions. They just go different places for answers. And where do they go when they are isolated and alone? And so you've got major implications of this theology start bearing down very practically in dangerous ways. And so you start asking, why is this a pattern? Well, because there's a belief system right now that does not mean every young person reacted in a deviant way at all, even by majority, but it does give insight into how that could create a pattern, because theology matters. And let me just say this, and this is sort of like from a biblical perspective. So I'm a preacher, right? Like I'm a Bible, a student of the Bible. And it's my first filter when I'm viewing things. So I don't mean to be so preachy. You know, I think this may be not an average podcast for us, but there's like the nail in the coffin of Gothard's theology and approach to this is the church in Corinth. Corinth was a Grecian city which was known for its debauchery. It was like Vegas on steroids, like Sin City, you know, to the point where people would refer to. If you were like, really debaucherous, they'd go, you're a Corinthian. And the reason for that is there was cult prostitution. So immorality was baked into the religion. It's just how they did everything. So you're coming home for dinner to your family, and you stop by the temple to worship and engage in immorality. Your wife doesn't bat an eyelid. It's like, yeah, that's our religion. The Corinthians were a pagan society which was known for rampant immorality. And then Corinthians hear the Gospel and churches form and they have issues. Paul has to actually work through some serious issues with them. In the churches, they're suing one another, they're getting drunk at the Lord's Supper. There's all sorts of immorality. And yet one thing Paul never says to the Corinthians, which would have, according to Gothard or the ascetic, solved everything. He never says, leave Corinth. He doesn't. I mean, it would have been a very simple solution. Hey, Corinthians, you're struggling with immorality and drunkenness. Get out of the most debaucherous city in the ancient Near Eastern world. What are you crazy? Why would you still be there? Instead, over and over and over and over, he appeals to the reality that they're united to Jesus. So when he's dealing with the cult temple immorality, he doesn't say, well, you live around the corner from the temple. That's not the problem. The problem is not the external influence. He says, why would you join Jesus Christ to your immorality? Don't you know you're one with Jesus? His appeal to them is Paul's same appeal to the colossians. In Colossians 3, you're joined to Christ because Christ has the power to transform from within. That's why Jesus said of his disciples, as he's praying to his Father before his crucifixion, he says, father, I do not ask that you take them out of the world. Keep them in the world. They're my hands and feet. They're the light of the world. Keep them from the evil one. But light shines in the darkness. Light doesn't gather with all of the light and avoid the darkness. And so Gothard got it completely wrong. And so generations of children are being raised thinking, if I can rely on the human flesh and my own ideas and ascetic, you know, severity to my body, I'll be pure and holy. And then all of these desires come up and they don't know how to deal with them. And then they become so severe, they spend their life in jail because they've never gotten to the root of the issue, which is you need a new heart. You need to Be transformed by the person of Christ who offers you, through the gospel, the reality that you're a sinner. You cannot save yourself. But Jesus Christ, in his life, death and resurrection, did what you couldn't. He bore the penalty for sin on your behalf. And by you putting your faith in him, you're united to Jesus. You are made new. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come. You want to battle sin in your life. You, you want to battle addiction. You want to battle arrogance and pride and evil passion. You need a new heart. That's Jesus message. So for a guy to stand up and say he's a Christian and have any other message than that, it's devastatingly sad that people would take him at his word and say he's a Christian. He's not a Christian. Bill Gothard is not a Christian. He's not a Christian teacher. He did not teach Christianity and the result is devastating. Are there Christians amongst? Yes. He used the Bible enough that genuine Christians could go, oh, there's something there for me. But that is not Christianity.

[B]

That was good, babe.

[C]

Ah.

[B]

I'm like, you have a lot to say and it's very good and helpful. I think that this has needed to be said for a long time and I'm glad that you have the clarity to say it right now.

[C]

Well, it's been something that you've been bold and courageous, insane over the years as well. And at the end of the day, this is motivated by love, not just for our immediate circumstance, with family or whatever. This is the hope of the world. This is the hope that Jesus came to offer. That's why he entered the dirt that he created and walked amongst us and fed the hungry and healed the sick and raised the dead and preached an offensive message that you can't save yourself. And although leaders come in and take and distort his message for their own propping up and their own gain and their own exploitation of people doesn't invalidate Christ himself. And that's where I would just hope, you know, we're doing this little 40 minute podcast or whatever. This is an ocean of truth. The Bible speaks to your situation. Now I'm talking to the listener like where you are is speaks. Read Romans 1. If you want to read about America in 2026, read Romans 1. Read the letters to the Corinthians, read the Book of Colossians. You want to understand our world, Read the Gospels and you'll go, oh, yeah, this is us. It speaks to it. And so this isn't a victim of the Bible's not a victim to what some philosophical deceivers want to make it. You have it in your hands. You can go to the source and see what it says and you'll actually discover it. Calls these guys out. Read Second Peter. There are books dedicated to exposing false teachers. Read the letter that Jude wrote to the church. It's all there. And so that's my hope and passion is that this would like wet people's appetite to go, okay, who is Jesus really? And what did he really say? Because if you don't like the fruit that you're seeing amongst those who claim to be Christians, go to Christ himself and you'll see the fruit. You'll see the truth.

[B]

Yeah, that was so good.

[C]

Well, Ginger, sorry that I dominated that one. And sorry to the listener. I get sick of my own voice. I know you're here for Ginger's voice. So am I. But grateful for you guys tuning in and thanks for your prayers and support. Yeah, we want Christ to be glorified and we want his name magnified and his hope proclaimed to the ends of the earth, really. Okay, well, there you have it. Thanks for hanging out guys. We'll see you again, hopefully next week.

[D]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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