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- [00:02]
Joe Rogan
Joe Rogan podcast.
- [00:03]
Francis Foster
Check it out.
- [00:04]
Joe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. I wish there was something to talk about. You guys are coming here. I'm like, I love these guys so much. Too bad. It's just there's nothing going on.
- [00:23]
Constantine Kissin
Well, I heard you, you might have needed to cancel on us to get Kamala Harris on.
- [00:27]
Joe Rogan
I was not going to do that. I would have had to. I knew you guys flew from England and I wasn't going to cancel on you because she had an opportunity to come in someone's. You could look at this and you say, oh, you're being a diva. But she had an opportunity to come here when she was in Texas. And I literally gave them an open invitation. I said, anytime. I said, if she's done at 10 o'clock, I'll come back here at 10 o'clock. I go, I'll do it at 9 in the morning. I do it at 10pm, I'll do it at midnight. She's up, she wants to, you know, drink a Red Bull. Fucking party on.
- [00:58]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, but I think this idea that you're being a diva, silly, because you're asking her, you're offering her the opportunity to do exactly what the other candidate did. Right?
- [01:06]
Joe Rogan
Well, she actually reached out when she found out that he was coming on. So their camp reached out to me. So I said, great, I would love to talk to her, but it was very difficult to tie it down. And a lot of. They wanted to travel and see, the thing is like, you can't. If I go somewhere, then there's going to be other people in the room and they want to control a lot of things. I'm sure, according to the Bret Breyer interview on Fox, like people were waving them off. That's a distraction. People in the room. Like, my whole goal with her and with him is just talk, just have a conversation like a human being. You find out things about people. You get a sense of them, at least a real sense. That was it. I don't give a fuck what we talk about. I really don't. I just, I just want to talk to you. Who the fuck are you?
- [01:53]
Constantine Kissin
Do they, do you think they think that you're on his side and they're more wary of you?
- [01:58]
Joe Rogan
I don't know. I mean, there's just. Because of my appearance, there's always been this assumption that I'm some right wing MAGA guy, which is, I was a Bernie supporter. You know, I am not. I'm a politically homeless person. For sure. You know, I always considered myself a left wing person. I never thought I would ever vote right wing. But then the tides of culture shifted in a very bizarre way. And it just made me, over time, much more aware of what this stuff is really all about. Because what this stuff is really all about is just these natural human behavior patterns and these tribal instincts that we have. And it overpowers all discussions. It overpowers what's good for the collective group. It overpowers everything. It's just people pick a fucking team and then whatever that team says they can do no harm, they will do their best to marginalize the horrible effects of the furthest extreme version of that. Whether it's antifa or the Proud Boys, they'll minimalize the. It's the same thing, man. It's the same thing. If you look at what's going on with the liberals right now. So progressives are, they want the war in Ukraine to be funded, they want to censor speech online, and they want to give the World Health Organization, which is deeply influenced by Big Pharma, including the fda, deeply influenced. The revolving door between the FDA and pharmaceutical drug companies is legendary. And they want to give them control over what we take and what we don't take. That's crazy. And that doesn't make sense because that's not what the liberals were. When I was a kid, my parents were hippies. We lived in San Francisco during the Vietnam War. My parents were like straight up hippies. That's how I was raised. And so for me, it was always like the liberals were the ones who wanted education and open mindedness. The liberals who were the ones with the aclu, let the Nazis talk and let them have a rally. They said, you can't infringe on people's free speech because if you infringe on the speech of people that you disagree with, you're being a fucking hypocrite. You got it? The only solution to bad speech is better speech. We've always known that. But when they had the power over social media and these collective groups of people that all had the same ideology, and then that tribal mentality kicks in and you lose the perspective that you should have as an educated person that recognizes that everyone has to be able to talk and we have to figure out who's right and you might be wrong, you might be wrong, and you might be clinging to this idea that you're right and you're going to do the whole thing a terrible disservice.
- [04:42]
Francis Foster
You know, the thing that I Loved about the left, Joe, was the anti establishment left. The left that were like, you know, we're going to challenge authority. We're going to, we're not going to listen to, you know, what the parties in charge may be saying. You know what? I used to listen to Bill Hicks when I was a kid, when I was 19, and go, oh, you know, that to me was like a totem of the left. But you just look at, you know, what happened to the left and what I saw in my own country and here, and it just seemed like this herd mentality came in and the moment you stopped, you, you started questioning or pushing back. It was the moment you just found yourself exiled from the group. And it just seemed that what I fell in love with at one point in my life no longer existed.
- [05:31]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, because it's bullshit. And I think we should even stop calling it the left and the right because it's just tribes. That is the real problem. When you have people that are supposedly progressive and liberal and they're opposed to the idea that free speech is an absolute right as an American citizen, it's very, very important. It's very important because it's the cause. Too many people can decide what you can and can't say. Like when Tim Walsh was saying like free speech doesn't apply to hate speech and misinformation. Well, of course it does. First of all, of course it does. But also you said misinformation. Okay, well if that's the case, like where is all the punishment of all the people that spread misinformation during COVID Like, where's the call? Where's the call for accountability? It's non existent. It's not real. They don't really care about misinformation.
- [06:25]
Constantine Kissin
They care about controlling information 100%, man. And look, this is going to sound like a party political point. It's not intended to be. But if we look at the facts, from 2016 onwards, we've heard a lot of misinformation. Yes, a lot of it.
- [06:40]
Joe Rogan
A lot of it.
- [06:41]
Constantine Kissin
And nobody ever got punished for that. Nobody ever went to prison.
- [06:44]
Joe Rogan
Some of those people are still in.
- [06:45]
Constantine Kissin
Positions of power and still supposedly the respected arbiters of truth and morality.
- [06:50]
Joe Rogan
And sure, they're still making appearances on these cable news talk shows.
- [06:54]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. And look, I think the concern about inaccurate information is perfectly valid and a legitimate thing for us to worry about in an ecosystem where information travels so quickly. It's not an illegitimate thing to be concerned about. But you can't have one side lie, call the Other side.
- [07:13]
Joe Rogan
This episode is brought to you by Paramount network. The epic return of Yellowstone, America's number one show is on Paramount network. What will become of the Dutton family? Can they save the Yellowstone ranch? How far will Beth and Rip go to protect the family legacy? Generations of blood have led to this and nothing will prepare you for it. The epic return of yellowstone, Sundays at 8, 7 Central. Only on Paramount network. This episode is brought to you by Paramount network. The epic return of yellowstone, America's number one show is on Paramount network. What will become of the Dutton family? Can they save the yellowstone ranch? How far will will Beth and Rip go to protect the family legacy? Generations of blood have led to this and nothing will prepare you for it. The epic return of yellowstone, Sundays at 8, 7 Central. Only on Paramount network.
- [08:11]
Constantine Kissin
Out for its lies and then go. Only that is misinformation. What we say. That's. Oh yeah, we said it, but we forgot about it. It's fine. You can't do that.
- [08:19]
Joe Rogan
There's this inherent problem with business being entangled in information. And that's what happened when these tech companies exploded. So business, an enormous business, not small business business like Google and Facebook and Apple. And these are huge businesses and all of a sudden they are in charge of information. Not necessarily Apple, but in a way because they have like banned people from the Apple store and banned people from. But it's their businesses, enormous businesses. But they're super left wing. Not just super left wing, but super woke left wing, which is like kind of the craziest version of it where just there's no room for negotiation. Anybody who disagrees is a fascist. It gets like real weird. Gets real weird with ideas. So you have, for the first time ever, human beings are capable of just with a device they carry around with them that has unbelievable amounts of power. That device has, first of all, you can be on it for like what, 20 hours now the new ones, they're like 20 hour battery life of just you staring at a fucking screen all day. And you're getting connected with an infinite number of ideas that are constantly coming your way. And it's almost all in the hands of left wing. The left wing party is Google, it's Facebook. It's all these companies that have massive power. And until Elon stepped in and bought Twitter, there was no counter to that. It was just one side. And that's where things get really weird. Because businesses like to have monopolies. They like to crush things. And if you have the monopoly of information, you get essentially Microsoft in information form. You Know when they had the antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft and people worried that it's a monopoly. And there's people who think that about Google now and there's even conversations about Apple being a monopoly. Businesses love that. They love to kick ass, you know, they love to fucking dominate the business. Your goal, if you run a business, you literally have a, you have a obligation to your shareholders that you continually grow the business. There's only one way to do that, kids. You gotta kick some fucking ass. And if you're the biggest thing and what is in your interest? Well, definitely controlling the information we would like to control. And we also want some cultural beach balls that we could chuck around so people like get distracted and throw them back and forth at each other. There's a bunch of Republicans that love the fact that they're these gender affirming care centers. They love it because it gives them something to yell about. It gives them something like, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them fund these things. Some people are fucking crazy. They're fucking crazy. Especially if they found it was profitable. Maybe they got a fucking some sort of a fund. And part of it is, you know, these are privately owned businesses. The whole thing is just human tribal characteristics applied to the way we're supposed to like coexist with each other and share the space. And it's all fucked up. It's all fucked up because it's the Cowboys versus the Raiders. No one's thinking straight.
- [11:28]
Constantine Kissin
That's so true. At election time especially it becomes like that. But I am hopeful this election, I think there is one thing going on which I'm actually really hopeful about, which is, you know, you had Trump on, on Friday. Like the conversation is moving from the clickbait 5 seconds mainstream media journalist will tell you what to think to a three hour conversation. You get to see the real person if that continues, which it will. And by the time of the next election this format will be the dominant format. I think the type of person who is going to be selected for positions of leadership will be a different type of person than the type of person who's selected on 10 second soundbites on mainstream media.
- [12:11]
Joe Rogan
Well, you certainly have a way better.
- [12:13]
Constantine Kissin
Grasp of who they are, but the medium is the message. It will change the type of person that succeeds in that format.
- [12:21]
Francis Foster
Right.
- [12:21]
Joe Rogan
The Vivek's will rise, right?
- [12:23]
Constantine Kissin
And that gives us a chance actually to change the political leadership in western elites, which is it's badly needed and we've been talking about it for God knows how many years now that the caliber of people coming through is not high enough.
- [12:37]
Joe Rogan
Right, right.
- [12:39]
Constantine Kissin
If this format takes over, that will change. And I don't know, it might just be a small blip on the road down to oblivion, but it might just be actually the thing that changes the type of leaders we elect. And that's exciting.
- [12:49]
Joe Rogan
There's a bunch of people that are out there now that I'm very excited about. One of them is Vivek. A big one is Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. Of course. I love that guy. I love what he's done his entire career, and I love what he's trying to do with health. I mean, this is a real issue that we all face, and we're all being poisoned and they're profiting off of it, and we're not doing shit about it. Meanwhile, you stop psychedelics from being given to veterans to help them with ptsd. It doesn't make any sense. This makes zero fucking sense. And they have so much control over what you say and do, because if you can decide that something is unsuitable for the population, like the drug schedule program they have in the United States, right. They have schedule 1, 2, and 3, depending upon if there's any medicinal use for it. And psychedelics are all on schedule one. That is crazy. If you're telling me there's no medicinal use. You could get thousands of people to testify in Congress about soldiers in particular. I know so many soldiers. No one prepares them for that. They go over there when they're 19 years old and they see people get blown up, they lose their friends, they come back, and then they're supposed to just integrate. And there's no fucking program that can help you do that. There's. You're on your own, and you got to sort through what you've seen. That's so different than all these people around you. You have to sort through seeing your friends die. You have to sort through having to kill people. You have to sort through that and just exist. And then there's a tremendous amount of veterans who commit suicide. It's a crazy number. And psychedelics are proven to help that. So the fact that there's some sort of an organization that thinks that somehow or another that is bad, that this thing that doesn't kill anybody, literally, like the LD50 rate for psilocybin is something insane. It's like you have to take. Well, it's like £100 of it or something. I don't know what it is. Like, let's find out what's the LD50 rate, which means lethal dose at 50% of the population, what kills half the people. It's like you can't do it. That's not what the concern is. Are there concerns about people losing their marbles when they do it? Yeah, yeah, there is concerns. It's not a fucking free ride. You know, there's some people that are mentally fragile and they have mental issues already. They shouldn't be doing that. But for everybody else, there should be a conversation where we figure out how to make the world a better place. And one of the ways to make the world a better place is to make people more kind, more compassionate and more understanding. And that's something that psychedelics provides. And the fact that that is somehow or another listed by a country that is the leader of the free world in the most information rich time alive. There's so much access to information. We all know what they really are and what they're not. And yet this organization that somehow this shadow organization that controls what we do tells you you can't have that. If you have it, you go to jail. That's bananas. That doesn't make any sense. And as long as we keep stupid shit like that, people will never have hope that there's going to be a better horizon, a better future. They would think that all these things are so. It takes so long just for marijuana. Look, marijuana is still not federally illegal, but it's legal in like half the states. It took so long for people. They're drinking whiskey on every fucking corner. People are just doing shots and drinking tequila. And marijuana is something that gets you locked in a cage. As long as something like that exists. That's preposterous and completely illogical. The good that it serves is the ruling class gets to rule without logic because they don't have to. It doesn't have to make sense. Fuck you, you're going to jail. And as long as they say that you're like, ah, we raise your taxes, you got to pay them. Fuck you, you're going to jail. But the fucking Constitution. Shut up. So if there's like an illegal situation like that or an illogical situation like that, rather, it makes you lose faith in the whole system. But when someone like RFK Jr comes along and says, hey, I think we can fix this, it's like, give him a fucking chance. Maybe he can. Maybe he can fix this whole health system where we've been co opted by these, these giant organizations that want you to make money.
- [17:15]
Francis Foster
You know, we interviewed on the show.
- [17:17]
Joe Rogan
Want to make Money off you? Rather.
- [17:18]
Francis Foster
Yeah, absolutely. You know, on our show we interviewed a guy called David, Dr. David Nutt, who's a neuropharmacologist and he's in charge of the hallucinogenic trials in Imperial College London, looking at how these particular drugs can alleviate ptsd, anxiety, other types of mental health disorders and depression. And the results that are coming out of there are fantastic. There's actually showing that a lot of drugs like psilocybin are in fact far more effective than prescription meds when it comes to alleviating conditions like depression. And it's really impressive what they're doing it.
- [17:57]
Joe Rogan
You know, I've talked to a lot of. What is this? Was this Jamie? I can't hear you, buddy. Oh, LD50. Oh, the LD50 rate. Oh, so your, your mic's not on, brother Joe.
- [18:11]
Francis Foster
Sorry, could you pass the lighter, please?
- [18:12]
Joe Rogan
I'm sorry.
- [18:14]
Francis Foster
Thank you, sir.
- [18:16]
Joe Rogan
Jamie's got the. He has to have the mic down because Carl's snoring. He's not asleep, so it's probably a little safer. But that was the LD50, bro. When he snores, he. That little dude. This is the best I could find. That was 280 per milligrams per milligrams to kg, which is really hard to understand. So it's £154. No, no. So for an average sized individual. Oh, that's the weight of the average sized individual. So the lethal dose, 50% is okay. Normal dose would be. It actually says no lethal overdose potential, says there's no potential for dying. The recommended therapeutic dose for optimum effects is 20 to 30 milligrams. For an average sized individual, 70 kilograms, or 154 pounds. For whom? The medium lethal dose LD50 is 19,600 milligrams, making it virtually impossible to ingest a lethal dose of psilocybin. But boy, if you got close, Mama, you might figure everything out. Get to the door, you might be able to come back with enough information like. I've solved it. I solved it.
- [19:25]
Francis Foster
You know I did. I probably told you about this before, but I invited a shaman ram to my house a couple of years ago and I did a psilocybin trip.
- [19:34]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [19:35]
Francis Foster
And the results of it were so profound, they changed the way I looked at the world. And I remember coming out after that the next day going, oh, all you're doing, all you really are, is a conduit for energy. That's all you are. You are conduit for positive energy or light, or you're a conduit for dark.
- [19:53]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [19:53]
Francis Foster
And that's really your choice as a human being. Do you want to put light and love out into the world, or do you want to put dark? Because we have both of those fundamentally contained within our soul. So it's up to you, as an individual, what do you want to put out there? And if you want to put out light and love, you're going to get back light and love. And if you want to put darkness, anger, destruction, you know what? That is going to come back on you threefold.
- [20:15]
Joe Rogan
It's true. It really is true. It seems so simplistic and ideally, oh, that's such a utopian version of the world. But for the most part, there's something real to it. And you do sense that. You do sense that sometimes in life, you know, there's. There's these, like, beautiful moments in life where you kind of like, oh, like this can be navigated. This life can be navigated better. And one of the best ways to navigate life is to avoid conflict at all, at all costs. It never solves anything. It almost always creates problems. And people that want conflict all the time are the most miserable people. They're just constantly embroiled in hate and anger and trying to get people back. And I think people. That's the negative thing that people associate with Trump. The negative thing that people associate with Trump is you hit him, he's hitting you back harder. He's got this thing. He called some lady that one of the ladies that he allegedly had an affair with, he called her Horseface on Twitter while he's a sitting president. That is so crazy. So that bothers people because it's like that kind of energy. You know, we don't like that kind of energy. And I think that's something that people are very apprehensive about for a leader.
- [21:27]
Constantine Kissin
Sure. What was your sense of his energy when he was here?
- [21:30]
Joe Rogan
It's. He's very charming. Right. So he's very friendly to me. And he also. We have a very good mutual friend, Dana White. Dana White loves him. He stuck up for Dana when MMA was a banned sport, and he let them put on his events in Trump Casino in Atlantic City. And so Dana loves the guy, and they've always had a good friendship. He got mad at me one time because I said that RFK Jr was only a guy. That makes sense, but I was essentially saying it the same way I'm saying it here. What RFK Jr is, he talks about facts and talks about reality, and he talks about Issues, and he talks about studies and what we know about things. He's just brilliant with his recall. And he doesn't attack people. And I think we could all use more of that. Even if he's writing something about something like in that book, the Real Anthony Fauci, it's because it's true and it's not good information, and it affects all of us. It's not like personally attacking someone. And I think that personal attack stuff is what bothers people. And so what did he do? He just attacked me. But he attacked me in the craziest way. He said, I wonder how loud Joe Rogan's going to get booed at the next time he goes to the ufc. I'm like, hey, bro, like, out of.
- [22:48]
Constantine Kissin
All the places that's kind of your homecourt right there.
- [22:53]
Joe Rogan
Booed. Come on, man. Yeah, those fucking people. I've been working for that company for 27 years. Like, whatever it's been. I mean, yeah. When did I start? I started in 97. That was the first time I worked for the UFC. Like, come on, that's a crazy thing to say. Or how about I hate Taylor Swift. I forgot to ask him about that one. Did he really tweet that? I think he put it on True Social when she endorsed Kamala Harris. All capital letters. I hate Taylor Swift.
- [23:17]
Constantine Kissin
I think he just has this role. Like, he just has to go out, go after anyone who says anything negative.
- [23:24]
Joe Rogan
It's why he's still in the game, though. This is. You have to realize, like, that's the kind of guy that even though they throw 40 felonies at him, he's still in the game, and he's still. All day. He sat here for three fucking hours, man. And that. Didn't have to pee before, didn't have to pee afterwards, Just gets on the fucking plane, flies to Michigan, does the other thing. He's two hours late. He just goes, man. It's kind of bizarre. Like, you people, you hear about that. You're like, ah, that's not true. Like, no, he really stays locked in. He didn't get tired. You know, he was, like, 78 years old, but he was locked in. He's got a lot of energy.
- [24:01]
Constantine Kissin
It's unbelievable how much energy he has. And one of the things I said as well is after you watched his first presidency, he didn't age. Do you remember Barack?
- [24:10]
Joe Rogan
Exactly.
- [24:10]
Constantine Kissin
Barack Obama was like. It was like someone drained the color from him.
- [24:14]
Francis Foster
Same with Blair.
- [24:15]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. Yeah, same with Blair.
- [24:17]
Joe Rogan
Everybody. Everybody gets hit hard. The look at Biden Biden basically died. I mean, he got to the point.
- [24:25]
Constantine Kissin
Where you're gonna get a fact check on that.
- [24:27]
Joe Rogan
Every now and then he. I said, basically every now and then he fucking will hold a press conference. And it's wild. It's like, so who lets him get to the mic? Is there. No, he's still the president. But meanwhile, who's running this motherfucker? She's. She's doing podcasts, she's flying all over the place, doing. There's no way you're paying attention. So who's running this thing? Yeah, Nancy Pelosi. She's in a bathtub filled with diamonds right now.
- [24:53]
Constantine Kissin
She's the same age, though, as well.
- [24:55]
Joe Rogan
She's older. She's older than all of them. She's like 83.
- [24:58]
Francis Foster
You know what it kind of feels like, you know, when you're in school and like the teacher leaves, gets called out by, you know, and then it's just you and the class, the rest of the class, and you're looking around going, the fuck's going on?
- [25:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, how are we free? You know what it feels like for me when I use my Tesla and I use auto drive? I just hands off, like, jesus, does this work? I know it's supposed to work, but I gotta keep my hands here.
- [25:19]
Constantine Kissin
Thank God for the deep state.
- [25:20]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Well, if that's real, if that's what's running this thing, I assume it's his cabinet that's running everything. But even then, it's like, is that really how it's supposed to be? It's kind of not. It's kind of the weird thing about running for president when you already have a job. It's like, that's why people get mad at governors who run for. For president. It's like, hey, bro, he's supposed to be governing. Like, we got a lot of problems here, and you're clearly not. It's like you. If you don't want to quit your job to apply for another job, the people that are already employed, you are like, hey, fuck face, you're not even here every day. You're trying to get this other job. This is nuts. Like, I've never seen an employee where you're not on the job and yet you're still here. And if you don't get the new job, you get to come back and be in this job. That's crazy. Why do we let that happen? Like, if you want to be governor, okay, you're governor. You want to run for president, you got to quit being governor or you Got to do your term out because you're going to leave us anyway. So if you have two more years left and the elections are. You're going to leave us. You're going to leave us high and dry here, you fuck head. Quit the job. Quit the fucking job. You can't have two jobs. So that's the nuttiest thing about running for president for reelection, right? So in Kamala Harris's case, she's not necessarily really running for reelection because she's the vice president, but she's also the vice president that's running for president. So she has the second most important job in the world, and she's not doing it because she has to run for the first most important job. So who's doing the job? Well, who's doing both jobs? Who's doing vice president? Where's the borders are?
- [27:01]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, man.
- [27:03]
Francis Foster
It has that feeling, though, that you remember, like in the 90s, where you, like, I don't know if you felt like this, and I was much younger, where you just kind of didn't question it as much. And then all of a sudden you start questioning things. And all it does, it leads you down from one rabbit hole to another rabbit hole to another rabbit hole. You know, it's like people always used to say to us when we started trigonometry, they were like, you know, the whole free speech thing is bullshit. Blah, blah, blah. You just want to be able to say racist things. You're a race. And then what?
- [27:32]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [27:32]
Francis Foster
And they were, you know, and that's why.
- [27:43]
Constantine Kissin
The books him is shitting their pants right now.
- [27:46]
Joe Rogan
Why did you do that? I tell all comedians, don't ever do comedy at something that's not a comedy event. Don't do it. Don't ever do comedy at a place that's doing also, you know, you're gonna. Is he gonna have a bunch of speakers and you're gonna go up and do 10 minutes. Don't ever do that. It's a terrible setup. It's a terrible setup, and it's a political rally and you're doing jokes like you're in a comedy club. It doesn't. You can't. Don't do it.
- [28:13]
Constantine Kissin
I don't really blame Tony, though. Cause Tony is what Tony is, right? Like, if you want an insult comic, Tony is the best in the world.
- [28:19]
Joe Rogan
That's literally his great specialty, is roasting, right? So best roaster ever.
- [28:25]
Constantine Kissin
If you book Tony Hinchcliffe. Tony Hinchcliffe is going to be Tony Hinchcliffe.
- [28:29]
Joe Rogan
Exactly.
- [28:29]
Constantine Kissin
So whoever fucking booked him that's the person that's. That's made the mistake, booked him, but.
- [28:34]
Joe Rogan
Apparently went over his material.
- [28:36]
Francis Foster
Did they go over his material? Oh, my.
- [28:41]
Joe Rogan
This is what I've read on the Internet. So it must be true.
- [28:44]
Francis Foster
In the words of Donald Trump, someone's getting fired, man.
- [28:47]
Joe Rogan
I gotta tell you, that joke kills at comedy clubs. I don't like the joke. It kills. And I said to him, I don't. It's just like, if you're Puerto Rican and you hear that in the audience, like, oh, that's a funny joke. The joke does well. But I said to him, I go, dude, that's the one that's going to get you stabbed.
- [29:02]
Francis Foster
Really?
- [29:03]
Joe Rogan
Yes. And he used to talk about it on stage, saying, joe Rogan always says, that's the one that's going to get me stabbed. Like, wow. Which is so crazy.
- [29:13]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [29:13]
Constantine Kissin
I think he'd pick stabbed at this point, given the shit that's coming down.
- [29:16]
Joe Rogan
I think it'll blow over just like all these things do. And there's people that. That are always going to hate someone like Tony and it's going to make other people love him more. It's just like he's going through it right now.
- [29:27]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:28]
Joe Rogan
You know, he's going through the storm.
- [29:29]
Francis Foster
As somebody who, you know, has wound up, you know, who winds people up. We, you know, we've wound people up on our time.
- [29:35]
Joe Rogan
You guys are winders.
- [29:37]
Francis Foster
We get called something beginning with W.
- [29:41]
Joe Rogan
That's a negative over there. Wanker. You can call someone a wanker here and it's just like, yeah, yeah. It's like, call them a cracker. It doesn't really work.
- [29:49]
Francis Foster
But when I saw what Tony did, I went, all right, mate, you're in a different league now. To me, that is another level.
- [29:55]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Obama was quoting his bit, but he's quoting it like it was a statement, right. Which is really fucked up. He was quoting it like he was saying someone called Puerto Rico an island of garbage. But, you know, that's a joke. That's like going to a Quentin Tarantino movie. And then the man killed that woman. Like, he didn't really kill that woman. That was a. That's like a doll.
- [30:12]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [30:13]
Joe Rogan
You know, this is a movie. No one died. Everyone's fine. They all like each other.
- [30:16]
Constantine Kissin
But if you give them ammunition.
- [30:18]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's the problem. We were discussing this, the bathroom. Like, it's like, that's their job. That's what they have to do.
- [30:23]
Francis Foster
They got it.
- [30:24]
Joe Rogan
That's their job.
- [30:25]
Constantine Kissin
You give them ammunition, they Use it.
- [30:26]
Joe Rogan
Of course they're going to do it. That's what they do. Like, you can't assume they're going to be a good person and not use it in this critical moment. How many days we. Like eight days before the election. That's crazy. That's so soon. Of course you're going to use everything. I'd use it, too.
- [30:42]
Francis Foster
But you know what? It nicely encapsulates modern politics because it's a storm about nothing. It's a storm about a joke at a rally. And actually, everybody's focusing on that instead of the huge problems that America has, which we all need to be discussing. And we need to be discussing in a calm, serious, and sober manner. Because, for example, if you have an open border, that's an existential crisis. Because if you can't control your borders, you don't have a country. But we don't talk about that. Really. We're getting upset because Tony Hinchkoff came along and called Puerto Rico another trash.
- [31:19]
Constantine Kissin
He made a joke.
- [31:20]
Francis Foster
Exactly.
- [31:20]
Joe Rogan
He made a joke that there's an island of trash. It's called Puerto Rico. Here's what that joke comes from. Tony is actually obsessed with the Pacific Garbage Patch. And unlike the fact that we just throw. Like we were talking about recycling, Recycling doesn't work. They don't do it. Most of your bottles and you throw in a recycler, they get put in landfills. So there's a landfill in Puerto Rico that's way overflowed. Puerto Rico has a legitimate trash problem because they're on an island. Like, where are you going to put it? Right. There's all these people living on that island. Where you going to put it? And so they have landfills. Their landfills are way over capacity. So that's where the joke came from.
- [31:58]
Constantine Kissin
Right.
- [31:58]
Joe Rogan
The joke came from, like, Tony being environmentally conscious. Yeah.
- [32:04]
Constantine Kissin
They don't seem to have taken it that way.
- [32:06]
Joe Rogan
But from his roaster perspective, that's where the joke. Joke comes from. I think it's called Puerto Rico and you say it and everybody laughs.
- [32:12]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [32:12]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [32:13]
Constantine Kissin
And actually, we were at the rally, and people say no one laughed. Not quite true. Like, it didn't get a big laugh, but it got a bit of a laugh.
- [32:21]
Joe Rogan
It's a funny joke.
- [32:22]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Joe Rogan
You know, even Jon Stewart said it was a funny joke, which I thought was great of him.
- [32:26]
Constantine Kissin
He had much better ones that got a bigger response. But, yeah, it's terrible.
- [32:30]
Joe Rogan
People like, well, it wasn't funny. Right. Because it was. It was a terrible setup for comedy. Everything was Wrong. If you were at a comedy club and the guy did that set, you'd be laughing. It's just a bad setup. Everything's wrong. It's like, you don't go to see acoustic music while people are using jackhammers around you. Right. Like, it's not the right setup. Right. You want to go where? Somewhere it's quiet.
- [32:49]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [32:50]
Joe Rogan
And stand up comedy should be done in a comedy environment in a club or. I mean, there is a great video, though, I should say, of Don Rickles. Don Rickles in the. Have you seen that? Don Rickles was a G boy. He was a funny man. He was so good. He was. It really translates today. Like, you watch that set. It really translates today. But I think Don Rickles was almost like he was in this category of ultra famous comedian. Right? He was in this Dave Chappelle type category, where just seeing Don Rickles, all of a sudden, it was a comedy show like, oh, my God, Don Rickles is here. Tony Hitchcliffe does not have that right. If Dave Chappelle went up and did 10 minutes in front of Donald Trump or 10 minutes in front of Kamala Harris, that's a different thing, because it's like he's a cultural icon. And you immediately would go into standup comedy mode. Like, oh, shit, Chappelle's here. Right? That's what Don Rickles had with Reagan. Tony doesn't have that. It's a bad thing to do. The whole thing's bad. It's like doing a bachelor party. Like, when you have to do comedy at bachelor parties, they want whores and cocaine. Why is this guy telling jokes? But it's just a bad environment. It's a bad environment for comedy. And you know that joke? I would have told him, don't you fucking dare do that joke. I never, like, sat down with him. I didn't know what bits he was gonna do. But then I heard he did that joke. I was like, oh, Jesus, Tony, here it comes.
- [34:23]
Constantine Kissin
I think there are comedians probably who. I think Tony's the wrong type of comedian for that environment. If you had someone come in who wasn't a roast comedian, who actually made everyone feel good and, like, clean, who.
- [34:35]
Joe Rogan
Do it and just talk about cultural issues and get everybody to laugh, is Jimmy Dore. Jimmy Dore is really good at that. He's. He could do something like that because he's so knowledgeable when it comes to politics. He could bridge the gaps between humor and fact and reality and what. What we're up against. You could do that. It's not Tony's wheelhouse, man. Tony's just talking shit about people's clothes and stuff. Like, he's very fucking very shallow with that. Like, his comedy is all just, you're a loser. You know? But it's fun. It's like. And he'll get through it. You know, he's going through a storm. And that's what happens with all these things with people like that. But it's good for him, too. Like, when he got canceled in the past, he came back way stronger as a comic because he felt like he had to prove something. Like, it made him really tighten up his material. Like, really edit things well and really, like, write sharp stuff. That's what will happen with him. He'll come back better.
- [35:31]
Francis Foster
The thing I really like about Tony is Tony's a fighter. You can tell when we interviewed him on our show and we talked to him, I'm like, you're a fighter. You're. You know, that's who essentially is. And he's going to come from. Back from this better and stronger. And look, it's. Everybody who is smart realizes that this is a storm about nothing, and it's being used and politicized and weaponized by the Democrat Party because that's what they do.
- [35:59]
Joe Rogan
That's what every side do because it's effective. Like, that's their job. Like, it makes sense that they would do that. That's literally their job. Their job is to win this fucking election. And if they can win this election by finding some lady who says Trump fingered her in the 80s, roll her out. Roll her out. Like, who else you got? You know, there's, like, all kinds of crazy allegations on both sides. I've seen nutty things that I don't even want to repeat about Kamala Harris that I'm sure aren't true, but it doesn't matter. They're just throwing things out there as much as possible. The thing is, like, most people aren't even paying attention to them.
- [36:36]
Constantine Kissin
It makes me so angry, you know, like, my great grandfather, he died on the Eastern front fighting actual Nazis. These comparisons are just. They're illegitimate. And what they do also is they take the power away from the words. Because now if you say this guy is a Nazi, there are some Nazis. Like your fucking Twitter feed. There's some Nazis.
- [36:56]
Joe Rogan
There's some real Nazis, right?
- [36:57]
Constantine Kissin
But if you say that guy's a Nazi, no one takes it seriously anymore, right?
- [37:01]
Joe Rogan
But there were some other things at the rally that people got offended by, and one of them was that guy's name? Stephen Miller. Was that his name?
- [37:07]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [37:07]
Joe Rogan
He yelled something like, america is for Americans. Like some. Something like that. Let's see what he said. See what he said?
- [37:15]
Constantine Kissin
I don't remember that part.
- [37:16]
Joe Rogan
That was a weird one, I thought, because I'm like, what's an American? They're all immigrants, though. It's a literal country full of immigrants. So what? You know, it's not like saying German. Germany is for Germans. Right?
- [37:28]
Francis Foster
Because, you know, that has a different vibe to it.
- [37:33]
Joe Rogan
I should have said, like, Portugal is for Portuguese.
- [37:37]
Francis Foster
Yeah, they got Germany's for the Germans. You're like, yeah, chill out.
- [37:41]
Joe Rogan
But. But it's that same kind of rhetoric to get people like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why are you yelling that? Like, what are you saying? Like, I really like the way J.D. vance talks. It's not screamy yelly. It's like, very smooth, and he's very coordinated. Very good. Yes. Very good at being very intelligent guy. Very good at being a politician. And he does these interviews, which is interesting, too, because he'll talk to all these people. We'll talk to cnn. All these people that corner them. They try to corner them on stuff. It's interesting what people admit to and what they won't admit to, what they won't talk about. You know, like, did you see J. Jake Tapper and him got at it?
- [38:16]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. He's so good with the media, man. He's very good at breaking the taps that they say.
- [38:22]
Joe Rogan
So what does he say? Americans for Americans only. Let's see what he's. How he says it. Listen, America is for Americans and Americans only. All right, settle down, bro. That's goofy. That's goofy because. Yeah, right. But what is America? America is literally a country of immigrants. You know, there's a lot. I want you guys to be Americans, you know, I know people that have moved here that become Americans. Best pool player in the world. Fedor Gerst. He's from Russia. Became an American citizen. He's American now. He plays literally, on the Moscone cup, which is like America's pool team. He's American. Every is everybody from everywhere. That's literally what we are. We are the actual melting pot. So America is for Americans only. Okay. What does that mean?
- [39:10]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [39:11]
Joe Rogan
How about, let's not let in criminals, rapists and murderers? How about that? How about, let's vet the terrorists before they come across? How about say that America's for Americans only?
- [39:20]
Constantine Kissin
Like, okay, totally. And, you know, we've traveled to many countries. I have to say, when it comes to legal immigration. I haven't been to a place that's more pro immigrant at the level of the ordinary person than this country.
- [39:33]
Joe Rogan
Well, we love an immigrant success story, right. We love a guy who comes here from Nigeria and now he's worth a billion dollars and he made his own computer company. Like, holy shit, look at that. This guy came from nothing. We love a come from nothing. We don't. That's the things that my friends from England always tell me is that there's this real sort of, there's an idea in the culture, like to keep people in their place.
- [39:56]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [39:56]
Joe Rogan
And they don't like when someone has like wild aspirations and they'll try to shit on you. He says there's no support at all for you, like chasing your dream.
- [40:04]
Constantine Kissin
It's all poppy syndrome, we call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, look, Francis was born in the UK. I came there when I was 11. I love Britain. But there is this element where you're not supposed to strive, you're not supposed to think you're special, you're not supposed to try and achieve too much. Like everyone loves you as long as you're not too successful. But if you really think you want to be successful, it becomes more difficult. And that's why a lot of those people end up coming here because they fucking give up.
- [40:31]
Joe Rogan
Your tabloids are brutal. Metabolism over there are brutal. And the laws are like different.
- [40:37]
Constantine Kissin
And now the tax system too. With this government that we have now, they're literally, we're losing more millionaires than any other country in the world except China.
- [40:43]
Joe Rogan
Didn't France do that at one point in time? Enact an enormous tax and a shit ton of people left and they wound up losing money.
- [40:51]
Constantine Kissin
Lots of countries done. It doesn't work because rich people don't have to live there.
- [40:55]
Joe Rogan
That's why we have to have one world government. Don't you understand? You can't just keep letting people move, move to favorable spots. That's how America go got started in the first place.
- [41:06]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, right.
- [41:06]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Francis Foster
We're sleep what we're seeing in the UK as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure Constantine has his own view on this, is we're seeing for me the slow creep of, I would say soft authoritarianism, but not even that. You look at Scotland. So Scotland on April 1, ironically enough, brought in hate speech as hate speech bill they called it. It came into law and that has now criminalized public performance, which includes stand up comedy.
- [41:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I've heard that. But the problem is they have that enormous festival there every year.
- [41:37]
Francis Foster
Yeah, the Edinburgh Comedy Festival.
- [41:39]
Joe Rogan
Edinburgh is like famous worldwide biggest comedy.
- [41:41]
Constantine Kissin
It's biggest arts festival in the world.
- [41:43]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Ari Shafir has done it like multiple times. He raves about. He's like, you have to go. You have to go. Like, no, I don't. Shut up.
- [41:50]
Constantine Kissin
No, you don't. You don't have to go.
- [41:51]
Joe Rogan
He said it's like, you should go there and do American stand up because they're basically like, a lot of them are telling stories and they have a theme every year. But he goes, it's really cool though. It's a cool, like art environment. So if they come along and say that all that stuff's hate speech now you've killed the whole thing.
- [42:07]
Constantine Kissin
Well, Tony would be in be if he'd done that joke there. He would be being investigated by the police right now.
- [42:12]
Joe Rogan
Well, he'd probably be in jail if he's in Canada.
- [42:15]
Constantine Kissin
This is not an exaggeration.
- [42:16]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm sure he would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's dangerous. That's the whole thing we're talking about. It's like left wing ideas used to be free speech is important. I mean, that's why if you go back and like, even in like left wing magazines and like, remember when Gore Vidal and William F. Buckley had that debate? That was a brilliant moment. Right? Because that was kind of like one of the first podcasts because they played it on. If you haven't seen that, what is the documentary about? Something Best Something Enemies. It's a great documentary, but it shows that the network that put it on, I think it was abc, was getting killed in the ratings and otherwise they would have never done this. And so they just decided, like, let's just take a chance. And it became this enormous success because everybody was under the best of enemies, right? It's really fantastic. It's a great documentary. And, you know, William F. Buckley is kind of this stuffed shirt, kind of douchey right wing guy with a pretty good vocabulary. And Gore Vidal, who is brilliant but a weirdo man, he wrote that nutty book about a transgender woman who like Raquel Welch played in the movie. It's the craziest book that he turned into a movie. It's a really nutty movie about like a guy becomes a woman and she's really hot and then becomes a man again. And it's like, there's a lot of sex in the movie. Like, it's like a perverted, bizarre, twisted movie.
- [43:45]
Francis Foster
Sounds very progressive.
- [43:47]
Joe Rogan
It was.
- [43:48]
Francis Foster
It Was.
- [43:49]
Joe Rogan
It was so progressive that nobody understood what the fuck. He was so far ahead of his time. But, you know, that was the left back then. You could, you know, you were kind of free to talk about anything.
- [44:04]
Francis Foster
This is the thing that is fascinating.
- [44:06]
Joe Rogan
About that Scottish bill, Myra Breckenridge. I bought it on dvd.
- [44:10]
Francis Foster
I'm not surprised. You can't.
- [44:11]
Joe Rogan
You can't stream it anywhere. Raquel Welch. First of all, the idea that any man could ever look like Raquel Welch, like, shut the fuck up. Unless she's in Thailand, this is not. The picture was controversial for sexual explicitness, including acts like female on male rape. But it, unlike the novel, received little to no critical praise and has been cited as one of the worst films ever made. In subsequent decades, the film has developed a cult following. It's a crazy movie.
- [44:42]
Francis Foster
Yeah, it's. It's so interesting. Like the. The way that we, you know, things were seeded at one point in culture and now they've become mainstream. Like, I was. I was at the gym. And then the. The words. The. The. The song Lola by the Kinks.
- [44:56]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Transgender song.
- [44:58]
Francis Foster
Yeah. I'm not dumb, but I can't understand why she walks like a woman and talks like a man. La Lola. Yeah, yeah.
- [45:06]
Joe Rogan
It's a great fucking song. Yeah, yeah.
- [45:08]
Francis Foster
And then you listen to it and you go, this is really progressive. And then it ends with, I know what she is. She's a man. And then I'm like, well, you'd get canceled for this bit now, bro.
- [45:18]
Joe Rogan
You know, the craziest song. The craziest song is Brown Sugar.
- [45:21]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, yeah.
- [45:22]
Joe Rogan
Rolling Stone doesn't even play Brown Sugar anymore. I went to see them in concert and they. They said they would not play. I mean, they've already said in interviews, it's like, it's too controversial a song. And then I saw the lyrics. Like, I had only heard the song. I never, like, read the lyrics. And so, you know, when Mick Jagger singing, it's hard to understand what the. He's saying, you know, because it's like he's singing like he's making sounds out of the words that's. Are pleasing more than he's communicating, like, really clearly. Pull up the lyrics to Brown Sugar. Wait till you read this. Have you read it?
- [45:56]
Constantine Kissin
I remember some lines, but not the full thing.
- [45:59]
Joe Rogan
Let's see this, bro. This one is like, yo, I saw.
- [46:05]
Francis Foster
An interview with Keith Richards where they were like, where the. Where the person said to him, and maybe this was Keith Richards fucking about with the journalists. Where the journalists went, so you know, obviously, Brown Sugar's about heroin. And Keith Richards went, no, bro, it's about sleeping with black women. And he went, okay, let's change the subject.
- [46:23]
Joe Rogan
Not just black with slaves. Gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields Sold in the market down in New Orleans. Scarred old slaver knows he's doing all right. Hear him whip the women just around midnight. Brown sugar how come you taste so good? Brown sugar? Just like a young girl should. Drums beaten, cold English blood runs hot. Lady of the house wondering when it's gonna stop. Houseboy knows that he's doing all right. You should have heard him just around midnight. Brown sugar, Brown sugar. Oh, I get it. Oh, get it on, Brown sugar How come he tastes so good, baby? Okay, Just like a black girl should. Now I bet your mama was a tent show queen and all her boyfriends were sweet 16. I'm no schoolboy, but I know what I like. You should have heard me. Just around midnight. It's a crazy song.
- [47:18]
Francis Foster
It's a stone cold banger, though.
- [47:20]
Joe Rogan
It's a banger.
- [47:21]
Francis Foster
It's a banger.
- [47:21]
Joe Rogan
It's a fantastic song. But imagine if you put that song out today. People like, yo, what the fuck? That should get you canceled. Like, if you did that at a Trump rally. Like if the Rolling Stones came out and did Brown Sugar at a Trump rally. If they opened up, ladies and gentlemen, the Roller Rolling Stones. And they did Brown Sugar, bro.
- [47:45]
Constantine Kissin
But the world has changed so fast. Yeah, my wife and I watched Friends the other day. You couldn't make Friends now.
- [47:53]
Joe Rogan
Right? Right. You can't.
- [47:54]
Constantine Kissin
We, like, we used to watch it regularly. We watched one episode. We were like, this is. This is like. It's transphobic. It's racist. It's a whole bunch of shit.
- [48:03]
Francis Foster
That's why it's funny.
- [48:04]
Joe Rogan
Well, have you ever seen Ace Ventura, Pet Detective?
- [48:07]
Francis Foster
Oh, yes.
- [48:08]
Joe Rogan
Holy shit. Try watching that again. You're like, yo, you couldn't make this movie at all. So many great comedies. There's no fucking way Tropic Thunder gets made today.
- [48:19]
Francis Foster
No.
- [48:20]
Joe Rogan
No way. It's one of the greatest comedies of all time. It's a phenomenal movie. You couldn't make it.
- [48:25]
Constantine Kissin
Do you think. Do you think this is, like, outright a bad thing or outright a good thing? Or do you think it's kind of halfway like, what do you think of it?
- [48:32]
Joe Rogan
It's gonna force courage, right? Because people obviously want to see those kind of movies. It's just someone's gonna have to have the courage to make. And if they do have the courage to make it. It will get criticized, but it'll also be wildly successful.
- [48:46]
Constantine Kissin
Right.
- [48:46]
Joe Rogan
If they really went for it and made a superbad today, like a fucking all out crazy comedy, it would be huge. People would be so happy. So the only people that are reaping the rewards of that desire for rebellion are comics. We're the only ones. Comics and podcasters, and mostly podcasters are comics. Like a lot of them are. At least. Least the comedy podcast.
- [49:10]
Francis Foster
But that's the thing. There is now a vacuum. There is now a vacuum for people to step in because it got to the point, particularly with TV comedy in the uk, and I remember saying it to comics and a comedy club, people's WhatsApp group is now funnier than TV comedy. And part of the reason is because if Everybody saw your WhatsApp group, we'd all be canceled.
- [49:31]
Joe Rogan
Right, right, right. Especially the ones I have.
- [49:36]
Constantine Kissin
But it's not just you, man. It's everybody. Everybody's hiding, right? Everybody's hiding.
- [49:41]
Joe Rogan
It's talking shit, right? This is what's fun about memes. Like, I don't believe the thing in the meme is true, but it's funny. It's a funny, crazy thing to say.
- [49:50]
Francis Foster
But why did we get to a point where we just believe that every joke was true, that every joke was a statement of fact?
- [49:58]
Joe Rogan
We don't believe it. But certain people want to use it because their words written on paper or words spoken out loud, and they want to use it as if it's a real statement. Just like the analogy I made about Quentin Tarantino movies. Like, it's not really killing anybody in those movies. It's like you want to pretend that this thing that this person's doing, you could decide it sucks. You could decide it's hate. You don't like it. It's, you know, it's not your kind of comedy. It's punching down. You can come up with all sorts of reasons why you don't like it, but that's like the same kind of reasons why you don't like AC dc, you know, and you like Liz. Fair. Like, everybody has their own thing that they like and don't like, but you can't pretend that it's a statement. It's not a statement. It's common and it's. If. I swear to God, if you see him do it on stage, it fucking kills.
- [50:42]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah. This is why I am excited though, man, because look at you. You just had one of former president, presidential candidate. By the time of the next election, it's going to be. Everyone's going to be doing podcasts. There's no getting away from it.
- [50:54]
Joe Rogan
What's interesting is something happened. I'm sure it was a mistake at YouTube where you couldn't search for it. Yeah, I'm sure it was a mistake.
- [51:02]
Francis Foster
It has to be a mistake.
- [51:03]
Joe Rogan
That was your purpose. And so if you googled Rogan Trump.
- [51:07]
Constantine Kissin
They got to Joe. They got to Joe.
- [51:10]
Joe Rogan
You could only get clips. You couldn't watch the whole episode. You couldn't find it. Yeah. And so we reached out to them a couple of times and they fixed it to their credit. So now you can find it.
- [51:19]
Constantine Kissin
Okay, but.
- [51:20]
Joe Rogan
So in the meantime, Elon was furious. And so Elon contacted Daniel Ek at Spotify and they put it on X as well. So now it's on X. The full. So now it has way more views because I think on Elon's alone. What is it on Elon's alone? Because Elon posted it and I posted it this morning. Like, right. I posted it last night. I woke up, it was like six and a half million views on mine and eight plus million on his. So it's just. It's a. You can't suppress shit. It doesn't work. This is the Internet. This is 2024. People are gonna realize what you're doing if you try to make it so that something can't come up in a search engine because it's too popular. First of all, if that's not trending, you tell me what the fuck is. Okay, so what's it at now? 8.6 million on mine. And what's it on. On Elon's? Because he has a lot more people on his than me. So that's just from last night. But you can't fucking suppress shit anymore. Like, when you're saying that that's. Why is that not in the trending. You have a trending thing. What's your trending thing? Really? Then if one show has 36 million downloads in two days, like, that's not trending. Like, what's trending for you? Mr. Beast, he gets a little more than.
- [52:32]
Constantine Kissin
That, but 12 million for Elon.
- [52:34]
Joe Rogan
So he's at 12.
- [52:35]
Constantine Kissin
So it's.
- [52:36]
Joe Rogan
It hit 20 million in a day just on X. And that's just us. There's a ton of clips. There's a ton of other accounts that have done it illegally, where they've taken the episode, the full episode, and uploaded it. So who knows how many views those have?
- [52:51]
Constantine Kissin
So, Joe, can I just check. Why do you say you're you're certain it was just a mistake?
- [52:55]
Joe Rogan
It's just a. A mistake of being sarcastic.
- [52:59]
Constantine Kissin
I didn't get that. Oh, now it was my turn to miss the sarcasm. Okay.
- [53:03]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's like, there's no way it was a mistake. That's too convenient. But it could have been, like, some rogue engineer. You know, there's a lot of people that are working behind the scenes, so.
- [53:11]
Constantine Kissin
You think they suppressed. That is so dumb, though.
- [53:14]
Joe Rogan
But there's a video. You could watch the video of people searching for it. I did find it.
- [53:19]
Constantine Kissin
It wasn't showing up.
- [53:20]
Joe Rogan
You couldn't find it. I couldn't find it. I couldn't find it. And then it got to the point where you could only. You only had to write. You had to write Joe Rogan. They fixed it a little where you write Joe Rogan Trump interview. And then it would come up. But if you just wrote Rogan Trump, only you get the clips.
- [53:36]
Francis Foster
Do you think it kind of worked for the Hunter Biden laptop story, what they did and their tactics around it? Now, obviously it came out later and it was a big scandal, but at the time it kind of worked. Do you think they might have thought, well, you know, it kind of worked for this, therefore we should try it for this?
- [53:55]
Joe Rogan
I think they're desperate because they had no idea it was going to be that popular. And it's a runaway train and they hate it because ideologically they're opposed to the idea of him being more popular. It's just like what we were talking about before. The left wing being in control of these massive media distribution companies like YouTube or like Facebook. They're massive companies. They have so much influence on everything. And they didn't like that this one was slipping away. And so they did something. And Jamie showed me, like, the image of the interactions, like when it. When they did that, it dropped off a cliff because people couldn't find it, so they just gave up or they just watched the clips. So you see, like, how much downloads it's getting. And then it just. What about that claim about the reporting taking it down? What's that? Yeah, that could be it too. Right. They were saying that you mass report something enough. So what was the actual claim? Like, somebody posted I. Basically, what you're about to say, if you mass report something enough, it might have just taken it out of the search because it wasn't like they didn't delete the video from our channel or anything. Right. So that could be. That could be it. But that's also the same thing, right? Because it's people that are on the left that are mass reporting something to try to silence it rather than just letting people do it. So maybe it's not the company itself, but it's the people that are attached to the ideology that the company follows, and they think that you should be able to do something about a conversation like that.
- [55:17]
Francis Foster
But it's so stupid, Joe. It's so ridiculous. Because I look at that and I go, like you said, all you're going to do is you're going to bring more eyeballs to it because everyone's going to think, hang on, they can. Well, I'm definitely going to watch it now. So I just don't understand. And this is me being a little bit naive and whatever else and go, why not for the Democrat Party? Why don't you do this? I know it's going to blow everyone's mind. Why don't you get the best possible candidate that you can and just go in on Trump?
- [55:48]
Joe Rogan
Well, he's got four. That's why this election is so dangerous. The reason why this election is so dangerous is we've accepted that someone could be the representative without going through a primary. So because we had to get rid of Joe Biden and everybody kind of agreed after the debate, like, oh, my God, he's literally falling apart. And they decided not to have a primary. And so once they do that, then you have the whole machine behind it, because there's a desperate attempt to redefine who this person is in front of everybody's eyes. This person that everybody thought, like, uses word salad. And all of a sudden, now they're the number one person. This is the. This is our savior. Barack Obama's behind her. Everybody's behind her. Like, it has to happen like that. And that's kind of crazy because they don't have much time and they're kind of manufacturing a thing, so, like, they're gonna try everything. It's like a desperado time. This is part of the problem with right now.
- [56:46]
Constantine Kissin
I would have thought they would have learned that lesson the last election because they tried this shit and it backfired massively. That's why Zuckerberg is now stepping back from it. I don't know if you saw Jeff Bezos article in the Washington Post.
- [56:58]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I did.
- [56:58]
Constantine Kissin
It feels to me like, at least among those guys, the tide is turning, man. They don't seem to be keen to interfere in anything like the way that they did before.
- [57:07]
Francis Foster
And also as well, just a final point, it's not like the Dems don't have form for this as well. Look what they did to Bernie in 2016. So you just go, what? Again and again and again. You're gonna do it. How are people gonna have faith in your party?
- [57:21]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but people don't look at that. Isn't that wild? They don't look at the idea that they. Bernie was getting too popular. And that was the first experience that I really had with like getting attacked by the mainstream news. Like CNN was saying that Bernie was on my show, that my show is sexist and racist or whatever the fuck it was. And you know that Bernie was doing a terrible thing by coming on my show. And that was when I saw. I was like, oh, they're trying to get rid of Bernie. Like, this is really interesting. Like, why are they turn like, you have the most popular podcast in the country. Why wouldn't he want to express his ideas out to the world? Because they didn't want him. And he was appealing after that kind of a conversation. And you're like, oh, so you're just going to take a fraction of a penny off of speculative trades and you'll be able to fund all these things like education and really, can you really do that? And I was like, okay, tell me what you can do. Like, you've been around this fucking rodeo for a long ass time. Maybe this guy's got a way of looking at things that is. Maybe it's. Maybe it'll work. And then I saw the machine and then they got him out of the primaries. I was like, whoa, this is kind of crazy. And they're willing to do that. They did it with rfk. Like, they would not let him have a primer. They wouldn't allow him to compete against Joe Biden. No fucking way. They had one guy, and that was Joe Biden until it wasn't. And then when it wasn't, it was like, okay, Kamala, you gotta be it. And then they just went hard pushing her through and it worked really good until some of these interviews.
- [58:59]
Constantine Kissin
Right?
- [58:59]
Joe Rogan
Because that. Those interview things are just a super unnatural way to talk. You know, you have live cameras in front of you and all these people and. And already she's got to be aware of how many people are hating on her. She has to be aware. She has to be aware of how many people don't think she deserves a spot she just got in.
- [59:18]
Constantine Kissin
Joe, can I ask you something? Who's the they? Right? This is the thing. I'm genuinely wondering who's the they that's trying to get Bernie, not to run. Who's the they?
- [59:28]
Joe Rogan
Well, first of all, it's the dnc, clearly, if you read Donna Rice's book.
- [59:34]
Constantine Kissin
But there's got to be like one guy or one gal at the top of that, right?
- [59:37]
Joe Rogan
I think so. I think there's an organization. I think, you know, you got your Nancy Pelosi's and all the people that are in power. And one thing to consider, if you're. You're thinking about, like, well, why would they want Kamala Harris over anybody else? Because, first of all, everybody who works in the administration right now is in the Biden Harris administration. Do we like to keep those jobs? I'd like to keep this job. What do I have to do to keep this job? And those are essentially the people that are running the show because she's busy and he's not there. So, like, those people want to keep their job. So that's what you're experiencing right now.
- [60:09]
Constantine Kissin
But, man, you know, sorry, Francis, just to finish, like, it sounds like a trite and rather obvious thing to say, but you're running to be the leader of the most powerful country in the world, right? You gotta be able to fucking talk, man.
- [60:26]
Joe Rogan
Yes, yes. Well, if we don't say this because.
- [60:30]
Constantine Kissin
It'S so fucking obvious, but, but you gotta be able to communicate well.
- [60:33]
Joe Rogan
That's why we have primaries, right? That's what primary. Because being a leader is a little bit more than having qualifications, right? It's being able to execute in real time under pressure. That's what those debates are all about. It's not just about, like, who's got the better ideas. You could have them both write an article and find out who's got the better ideas. It's about seeing them kind of perform under pressure and respond under pressure. We want to see how you handle the cooker. That's why we like those crowds. You know, when you do those debates in front of crowds, it's a bigger cooker. You know, we're trying to figure out whether or not you can handle it. And by having no primary and having her just go right through and then keeping RFK Jr away from Biden even before that, like, this does not give a lot of people faith that you are following the ideals that this country was founded on. And if you're just. You're going on your own way just because you want to win, okay, you've kind of have taken over this system and subverted it. You've changed it.
- [61:32]
Constantine Kissin
Well, let's say you get elected, though. You're going to be sitting across from Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin.
- [61:37]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [61:39]
Constantine Kissin
If you can't talk right, how's that going to go?
- [61:42]
Joe Rogan
Well, good thing they don't speak English and make it sound brilliant. Believe me, you know, they're not worried of all, but also they have been doing that job for how long? How long has Putin been in charge of Russia? How many years now?
- [61:59]
Constantine Kissin
Since 1999? 25 years.
- [62:00]
Joe Rogan
Okay, 25 years being a leader of Russia. And Xi Jinping controls China with an iron fist. And he's been doing that for how long?
- [62:07]
Constantine Kissin
Right. I don't know, but a long time.
- [62:08]
Joe Rogan
A long time. So you have people that's. It's one of the vulnerabilities of American politics, is its strength. And one of the strengths is that you don't have someone who stays in and just keeps running things, becomes a dictator. You have to get out of there after eight years at most. The bad part about it is every four fucking years, we have someone who's new doing the hardest job in the world. They've never done it before. Like, even Trump said, like, at the beginning of his term, he did not know how to appoint people. He didn't know who to trust. And he trusted a bunch of people he shouldn't have trusted. And he put a bunch of people in there that he should have put in. So four years of that, he got a handle on it, and now he has a completely different perspective. Why? Because he did the job already. Because he's already been in there running it. He knows, kind of, he's a businessman. It's like, I see why this is fucking up and I need to get smarter people in here. And so what does he do? He talks to Chamath about being the head of the fda. He talks to Elon about coming up with some government efficiency agency. He talks to RFK about taking care of healthcare. He's like delegating to people that are very good at it now. And like some. These people that could actually impart a real change. Not like a sort of F change where you just like putting on a different mask. No, a real change of the system. And that's one of the reasons why the resistance against it is so hard, because so many people are going to be out of work.
- [63:34]
Francis Foster
And you know what I found really interesting? Looking at the Democrats with you look back at the Bernie 2016 thing. They didn't appoint Bernie. They appointed their person, Hillary. Hillary Trump took a lot of Bernie's talking points and went on and won the election because it spoke to the average American. And the average American felt no connection with Hillary whatsoever. So you actually going, if you had just got and been fair, Bernie might actually have won. He might actually have won because he had cut through with the average American. But they didn't want that. They appointed their person and then they ended up losing. And then they had a tantrum and said it was Russia interference and all the rest of it. No, it was you. You stopped the person who actually could have won the election for you, who could have cut through to the average American. You didn't want that, and you screwed it up for yourself. And then you had a tantrum at the end of it, blaming everyone.
- [64:30]
Joe Rogan
And then there was also the polls, right? The polls had her winning, like, by a huge margin. I think on election night. It was like a 90% chance she was going to be the president. Something crazy. So for him to show that the polls were bullshit, that it's good in a way, but it's also like, now they're going to tighten things down significantly. If the same sort of apparatus that would keep a guy like Bernie Sanders out or a guy like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Out. They're not playing fair. They're not interested in playing fair. They're interested in winning, is whatever the fuck it takes to get through this thing and win. They want to keep their jobs. It's just. It's like they're engaging in corporate warfare or legal fair. It's like they're weaponizing the justice system to go after their opponent. They're doing everything they can, all of the things.
- [65:19]
Constantine Kissin
What's your sense of how it's gonna go?
- [65:22]
Joe Rogan
I have zero idea. Zero idea. I do not like that. People are suing to make sure that voter ID isn't required. People are suing to stop people from using ID to vote. That's the only reason why you would do that, is you want people to vote that shouldn't be voting. That's the only reason. That doesn't make any sense.
- [65:45]
Constantine Kissin
You know, we've been here a week now. I've had to show ID to get into a bar, to rent a car, to rent a hotel room.
- [65:51]
Joe Rogan
Like, yeah, it's just ridiculous.
- [65:53]
Constantine Kissin
Everyone has fucking id.
- [65:54]
Joe Rogan
But the saying it's racist to require ID is so crazy. Or it's bad for poor rural Americans to require id. That's crazy. They have cars. Everyone has a car.
- [66:04]
Constantine Kissin
I saw some data on the Internet. It might be wrong, but showed that ethnic minorities actually have a higher support for ID for voting than white.
- [66:13]
Joe Rogan
Probably because they went through it, to get a fucking id, right? Ethnic minorities went through it, became American citizens, actually got the legal right to vote. They're proud of it. And they're like, hey, do what I did. Don't just cheat.
- [66:26]
Francis Foster
You guys are cheating.
- [66:27]
Constantine Kissin
Seems like a reasonable point.
- [66:29]
Joe Rogan
That's so reasonable. But anybody who would say that that's not reasonable only wants to win, right? You know, I'm pretty left of center for the most part and I, I see that, I'm like, that's crazy. You can't, that doesn't make any sense, sense at all. You can't say people don't need IDs because it's racist or it's, whatever it is, it's, you know, racist.
- [66:52]
Francis Foster
And, and the thing is they talk about classes, right? And I saw like I, I used to work when I was teaching, I used to work in a lot of deprived communities. Really, really like people were struggling. Like if people made it to the end of the week with food on the table and they paid their bills, that was a win. That was an absolute win. And having worked in those communities, those people are more anti illegal immigration than the inverted commas elites. Because illegal immigration brings down their wages. It brings down, it brings down their ability to earn. It means that the jobs that they do get obliterated and they can no longer afford to feed their families. It's basic economics. So this idea that, oh, you know, immigration is a right wing issue, it's bullshit. Immigration is actually a left wing issue and you look at all staunch, what you would consider to be old school lefties, they are all, no, we need to control immigration to protect the rights and wages of workers. It's why when we had Brexit in our country, people said, oh, it's right wing. It wasn't. I know so many blue collar guys who voted Brexit, they weren't racist, they weren't any of those things. But as one of them explained to me, he was like, look, Francis, I've got no problem with immigration, but at this point it just feels like my wages are getting lower and lower and lower. I've got a kid on the way, I can't afford to live on this. And to then smear that person as right wing, it's obscene.
- [68:23]
Joe Rogan
It's also, you're giving power to the people that take advantage of these illegal immigrants air quotes because they can get those people to work for less money. So you're empowering bad people to use cheap illegal labor. And that, that becomes a problem because they'd use it all the time. Especially there's no inspections. I mean, how many different plants have been busted across the country using illegal aliens? It happens all the time. Construction sites happens all the time. In fact, Tim Dillon said that that was one of the. He believes one of the motivations of having the border so porous, he thinks, is to get cheap labor, because it's hard to get cheap labor. And so if you're working a construction site and you got a bunch of illegals working for you, they have no rights. You know, they can work for a fraction of the minimum wage, and it's way more money than they were getting when they were in Mexico. And then you're putting them up in a house. They all live together. They're pickled peach. They're fucking happy as shit. They can't believe they're in America and they're actually making money. And there's a road to at least some level of prosperity that exists here, so they'll work for less money. So you're empowering scumbags to pay people below standard wages, and then you're crippling all the people that are the workers who don't have any say, who are healed legally, who are. You know, they demand. They know what they're supposed to get. They demand fair wages and health insurance and all the things that you should get. Employees.
- [69:51]
Francis Foster
Yeah, and it's also as. Well, look, my mom's Venezuelan, so. And I have got family in this country. I know a lot of Venezuelan people in this country. And then I see what illegal Venezuelans are doing, like El Trenda Aragua, that gang.
- [70:06]
Joe Rogan
I like how you rolled your cars.
- [70:09]
Constantine Kissin
I always make fun of him for that.
- [70:11]
Francis Foster
You know, I'm just trying.
- [70:13]
Constantine Kissin
I'm Latino.
- [70:14]
Francis Foster
Yeah, you did a good job. I need to do it. Otherwise, no one believes me, Joe. But, you know, I can tell you this for a fact. Every single Venezuelan who came here legally, works hard, went through the hoops to escape Venezuela, to create a better life for themselves and their family are utterly mortified and horrified at the actions of those criminals and what is happening in this country. Because not only is it terrible for the victims, but it also reflects badly on us. Like you. Now go on. Venezuelan. And people think, oh, what, like that criminal gang?
- [70:49]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's also weird that it's taking place in what they call a sanctuary city where the cops are kind of. They're handcuffed as to what they can do with these people. And one of the weirdest ones was someone was having a conversation with this woman where they Were talking about these gangs. I forget who it was. Might have been J.D. vance. I forget who it was. But the woman was saying that it's only a couple of apartment complexes that have been taken over. Who was that with?
- [71:16]
Constantine Kissin
I think it was J.D. vance.
- [71:17]
Joe Rogan
But yeah, and he was like, do you hear yourself?
- [71:19]
Constantine Kissin
Right?
- [71:20]
Joe Rogan
In the United States of America, armed gangs from Venezuela have taken over a couple of apartment buildings in your city. And you think it's not a big deal. You're trying to minimize that. How crazy that is that illegal aliens who came across were armed to the tits, are part of a dangerous, enormous, organized gang, have taken over apartment buildings and are extorting all the people that live there. And you don't think that's a problem? That's wild.
- [71:46]
Constantine Kissin
And if you say that, they go, that's a right wing talking point.
- [71:48]
Joe Rogan
That's why.
- [71:49]
Constantine Kissin
What are we fucking talking about?
- [71:50]
Joe Rogan
What are we talking about? What if your mom lives in that building? Like, what are you talking about? That's crazy. You're saying crazy things. It doesn't make any sense.
- [71:58]
Constantine Kissin
It doesn't. And you know, we were in LA last year and because I have a Russian name, you know all the Lyft and Uber drivers in la, they're all Armenian, right? So they all speak Russian. They recognize my name, so they talk to me in Russian. The, the guys who came in the 90s, they all came legally. They got their documentation, everything. One guy was telling me he smuggled his 83 year old father, who's disabled, in a wheelchair through the southern border. Like all the guys that are coming now are coming through the southern border. They're not getting documentation. Why would you bother?
- [72:31]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [72:31]
Constantine Kissin
Why would you bother? And that you can't. Americans are the most pro immigration people that I've ever seen. But I also think when you have high levels of illegal immigration, that undermines people's confidence in the entire system. And the worst thing is it doesn't make any logical sense. Can anyone explain to you why it is beneficial to America to have an open border? What is the benefit to Americans?
- [72:55]
Joe Rogan
I think 84% of Americans don't agree with it.
- [72:58]
Constantine Kissin
Well, no.
- [72:58]
Joe Rogan
Cheers. I think it's. A large number of Americans don't agree with it. And yet it's happening. And the real fear is that it's being used to buy votes.
- [73:06]
Constantine Kissin
Right?
- [73:07]
Joe Rogan
That's the real fear.
- [73:08]
Francis Foster
Do you believe that, though?
- [73:09]
Joe Rogan
It's a great strategy. If I wanted to buy votes, I mean, if I was a sociopath, right? Which is what a corporation really is, right? Is a psychopath. How do they. Isn't that. There's a great book about that, right. Defining a corporation as a psychopath. And as we talked about before, this need to constantly grow and this obligation to your shareholders, do whatever it takes to make the most amount of money. If you were a corporation, you wanted to control the whole country, what would you do? Well, I would incentivize people to vote one way, and I would move them in and make their life way better than it ever was before and then let them in. And the other side saying, we're going to deport you, well, then the other side's definitely not who you're going to vote for. So now all I have to do is let you vote. So I can either let you vote by telling you how you don't need id, just go ahead and vote. I can do it by offering amnesty to a certain amount of people. And then there's this thing that they keep saying that these people are here legally, but the way they're here legally is a new thing. And this new thing that they started doing during COVID is they use the shipping app to schedule amnesty meetings now. So they allow you to get into the country with this app that was really only for shipping. Pull that app up again. James, Jamie. So this app was originally used so, like, say if you came here from, you know, England or whatever and you wanted to sell some stuff, you. You could be here for a while while you're. You're shipping and bringing your stuff over. This is like a way that you could register so they know where you are and then you can leave. So now they changed it during COVID and made it. So this app now allows you to schedule an entrance into the country so you don't have to have. There's no vetting, there's no checking on you. There's no who you. But through this app, you could schedule time. They'll compensate you. They put you up, they bring you to places. So this is a US Customs Border Protection app. So it's CBP1, mobile passport control, MPC and my CBP. So it was launched in October 2020. CBP1 is a free app that provides access to a variety of CBP services. It uses guided questions to help users find the right services, forms, or applications. CBP1 was originally used to help commercial trucking companies schedule Cargo inspections. In 2023, the app was expanded to allow unauthorized migrants to request asylum and book appointments at the US Mexico border.
- [75:38]
Constantine Kissin
But that's good. You want people to book an asylum appointment and so that you could make sure whether they're legitimate claimants or not. That's a good thing. Right. The problem is when people are allowed in and they don't have a good case. Right. Because America would let some people in who claim asylum. I think the American people are very generous in that.
- [75:55]
Joe Rogan
I wonder how many people they deny that, try to use that app.
- [75:58]
Constantine Kissin
That's a different question.
- [75:59]
Joe Rogan
The real question is, why are so many of them showing up in swing states? That's the real question. That seems a little suspect if you're moving people to swing states and then you have people like Nancy Pelosi and I forget who else it was. They were making the argument that we need immigrants because Americans are not having enough babies. You know, this is Elon's argument. He's made this population collapse argument, which doesn't seem right to people because they're stuck in traffic. But it is right if you really pay attention to the amount of people that are actually having children and what it's going to be like in the future. South Korea apparently is a gigantic disaster.
- [76:34]
Constantine Kissin
Japan as well.
- [76:35]
Joe Rogan
Japan as well.
- [76:35]
Constantine Kissin
We had this guy, Steven Shaw on the show to talk about. He did a great documentary about it. He went all around the world looking at population decline. And it is a real fucking problem.
- [76:44]
Joe Rogan
It's a real problem. It's a real problem. And so their argument, and this is a. I think it's a bullshit argument. It's like we're letting these people in because Americans aren't having any babies. Like, oh, you just figured that out? Yeah, but this is moving them to swing states.
- [76:56]
Constantine Kissin
This is such bullshit, though, because America has a legal immigration system. You could have billions of people come into the United States legally if you needed babies. There's a queue of a billion people who would come to America legally if you let them.
- [77:09]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [77:09]
Constantine Kissin
That is not an argument for legal immigration.
- [77:11]
Joe Rogan
How much can you learn about someone in a short period of time when they're coming to the border? Because, like, there's those numbers of, like, I think it's. Over the last 10 years, how many murderers have come through, how many rapists have come through? It's like, it's staggering numbers, right? And then there's the unreported ones. A lot of these gang members, they snuck in. The coast is wide open. The coast is weird. You know, you could. You could be in a boat and beach yourself in San Diego and no one knows what the to do. And then you jump out, you're in a van, there's A lot of that stuff goes on. So it's like, how many people are actually getting in that aren't reported? That's the real question. And they know that they've caught people that are on the terrorist watch list. They know they've caught people at the border that absolutely are up to no good. So it's like, how many people didn't they catch? How many people snuck through? How much in danger are we because of that? How much of an October 7th type attack could happen in the United States because of that? To say no percentage is crazy. So to say that it's possible means that you've been derelict in your duty, you haven't saved us from the potential of us being invaded.
- [78:15]
Francis Foster
And it's also as well then what you are naturally going to get, if that is a concern, a major concern for the average working person, you are going to get a politician who is going to address those concerns and is going to make it front and center of their campaign. Of course. Of course they are, because that is politics and that's how it works. And that's a good thing. You need those people to address the concerns of ordinary people.
- [78:39]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [78:40]
Francis Foster
But then they come in and then they start going, this is a Nazi rally. This is so. And you're just going, oh, not only do you not want to have the conversation, not only do you want to justify your ideas, you want to bully, bully, smear and harass those people with perfectly legitimate concerns in order to shut them up. So what you're going to get is what happens when someone has a very real concern about something and you smear them and you call them horrendous names. Those concerns aren't going to go anywhere. They're going to get really angry, they're going to fester and eventually it will turn into something nasty.
- [79:19]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [79:20]
Francis Foster
And so. So by doing this and continually ratcheting up the police like a pressure cooker, continually ratcheting up the pressure, eventually it's going to boil over. And I look at them and I think to myself, do you know the forces that you are messing with? Do you understand what you're doing? Because eventually this is going to turn nasty and I really don't want it to. I hope it does. But you can only do this play so many times before people go, you know what? You're gonna do that. Fuck you. And this is what I'm gonna do.
- [79:55]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And they run the risk of that in Aurora, Colorado. They really do. They run the risk of that with these gangs taking over apartment Buildings and them not stopping it. All of it's very scary because that's what everyone's worried about. What everyone's worried is that our level of crime is gonna rise up because you're bringing people from crime ridden areas that have criminal backgrounds and you're letting them in without vetting them. And you're gonna increase the crime and you're gonna increase organized crime and cartel crime. That scares the fuck out of people. And it should. And you can't let that in just because you want to win. You can't let that in as a side effect of this goal that you have to bring in these people that are probably wonderful people that just want a better life and they take this crazy journey where they walk on foot across the country. Hey, I would do it too. I would 100% do it too. And I think you would as well. If you were living in those countries and the Red Cross gave you a map and said, this is what you got to do. You got to make it up here and go to these people to give yourself phone like, okay, you would do it. Why wouldn't you do it? If they know you're gonna get let in and then you get money and food stamps and they'll put you up at a house. What? Of course you'd do it. And then you have like these places, like New York City, where these enormous luxury hotels are completely occupied with immigrants. What was that movie that that luxury hotel was in? There's like a famous movie. Is it the Jennifer Lopez movie Made in Manhattan? Is that the movie where they have those people hold up, find out if that's it. But it's like a famous luxury hotel and they just. And then all the poor people in America are like, hey, motherfucker, what about us? What about us? What about the veterans? What about homeless people? What about all these people that are down on their luck? What about all these people that are single moms, all these people that have no money? What about them?
- [81:34]
Constantine Kissin
Well, this is the question I'd be asking if you mentioned 84% of Americans are concerned about this. If I was a Democrat, that's what I'd be.
- [81:42]
Joe Rogan
Roosevelt Hotel. Wow, that is crazy. The Roosevelt Hotel is a famous hotel. And look how beautiful it is on the inside. It was just over a year ago in the Roosevelt Hotels and became the one stop shop. So this entire hotel. So if you're a hotel guy, right, And Homelands, whoever it is that runs this program, comes along and says, hey, we'll fully occupy your hotel 24 7. We'll give you X amount of money. You know, maybe it's more money than you would get if you were at full occupation. Like, you're like, okay, sounds like a great deal. And so now you have housing for all these people. And then the people that are living here are very upset, and they should be. You see it all the time. People in Chicago are fucking fed up, man. They like, we've been trying to solve the crime and the poverty problem here forever. City would not say how much it costs to keep the facility running every day, but Immigrant Affairs Commissioner Manuel Castro emphasized how the cost should be coming from the federal government. We hope that the federal government does more in support of asylum seekers.
- [82:54]
Constantine Kissin
Okay, well, it's like what you said. The federal government is giving money to hotel owners. And so everybody's happy. Happy. Yeah, everybody's happy. Except the people of America.
- [83:03]
Joe Rogan
Well, except the people that have to deal with the problems that come along with allowing people in that aren't vetted, you know, especially people that come from a place where it's violent, you know, and crime is rampant and normal.
- [83:15]
Constantine Kissin
Well, this is. This is what I was gonna say. It's like, if I were one of those Democrats who secretly harbored these concerns, the question I'd be asking is, why isn't my party dealing with this? Right. If all of America basically agrees this is a pro problem, why is it a party political issue? Why isn't a thing that both parties agree on, by the way, as they used to, right? All the major Democrat figures. Twenty years ago, I had the whole chapter in my book about it. They all used to say exactly what Donald Trump is saying now.
- [83:46]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah, they do. And especially Barack Obama. You know, he talked very.
- [83:50]
Constantine Kissin
Clinton, Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, they all talked.
- [83:53]
Joe Rogan
About the importance of a secure, safe border. It's always been an issue because you want to protect American citizens. It's not racism. Like, I'm all for immigration. I just think maybe we need to spend more money on letting people in legally. But how do you vet those folks? That's the real question. Like, how much paperwork did they have? How much of a.
- [84:11]
Constantine Kissin
It's pretty thorough, man. Like, Francis and I have had to apply for visa.
- [84:14]
Joe Rogan
Right, but you guys did it legally the right way.
- [84:16]
Constantine Kissin
That's what I'm saying. But they look everywhere, man. Like, every cavity is fucking examined. You know what I mean?
- [84:20]
Joe Rogan
Coming through. But even people coming through. I mean, if they're coming through the wrong way and you want to vet them, how can you even.
- [84:28]
Constantine Kissin
You can can you really? I don't think it's beyond the American.
- [84:33]
Joe Rogan
But if you're from a third world country.
- [84:35]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [84:36]
Joe Rogan
With very little paperwork. Like what, how do they do that?
- [84:39]
Constantine Kissin
Interviews, I would guess they try and find out where you lived.
- [84:42]
Joe Rogan
Like, oh my God, how much resources would that require?
- [84:45]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, but compare that to how much resources it requires to host people in a five fucks and start fucking hotel.
- [84:50]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, very good point. Right. You could be talking to those people the entire time. So where are you from, Bob? What'd you do?
- [84:56]
Constantine Kissin
America would save a lot of money if it put a lot more money into finding out who's coming here, making sure people have a legitimate claim, they've applied legally, and then you're spending the money where it's supposed to be spent and then you've got a safe fucking country.
- [85:10]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [85:11]
Francis Foster
And then, and this is a really important point, when people go. Because they did, you know, they do the, you know, the argument about, look, we have to let these people in. You're letting people smugglers flourish, you're letting sex traffickers flourish. How many of those poor women and kids are getting brought over and basically being turned into a sex slave? There's no. They've got no identity, they've got no rights. How many of them are now in this country? No one knows.
- [85:37]
Joe Rogan
It's not zero. No, it's not zero. It's a real concern. And that's not something that's being brought up. Instead, they're bringing up Tony Hinchcliffe's joke.
- [85:44]
Constantine Kissin
Right.
- [85:46]
Joe Rogan
Because this is an inconvenient political issue that is very dangerous. The Republicans harp on it, the Democrats ignore it and minimize it. It's a giant issue. The human smuggling thing is a giant issue. There's something like 300,000 kids that are missing that came across the border. They have no idea where they are. There's so many people, I mean, what is the number over the last four years that have come across illegally? What's even the estimate? What's the estimated number of crossings? It's the highest ever that's ever been in modern history.
- [86:16]
Constantine Kissin
I think under Biden has been around 10 million total, from what I've read. But Jamie, I'm sure we'll check this.
- [86:20]
Joe Rogan
That is five Austin's.
- [86:23]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [86:24]
Joe Rogan
I mean, yeah.
- [86:25]
Francis Foster
And what effect is that having on society? Because also there's a law of unintended consequences. What's going to be the effect, not only now, but five years down the line, 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line.
- [86:36]
Joe Rogan
Do they have jobs for these people. Yeah, here's the thing.
- [86:39]
Constantine Kissin
Well, they do for like $2 an hour. Yeah, yeah, right.
- [86:41]
Joe Rogan
But here's the thing, like if there was more American manufacturing, and this is one of the things that Trump really wants to pursue is incentivizing American manufacturing and putting tariffs on things that brought in from overseas. If there's more American manufacturing. First of all, one of the things that was exposed during COVID it was a big one, was how much we rely on stuff that comes from other countries, you know, especially medications. A lot of it was coming from China and there's a lot of equipment, A lot of things got stuck. So here it is. What's the number? Let's say the number, Jamie. 11 million since 2019, I think. 11 million, yeah. This article is also like not blaming but saying a lot has to do with in 2023, the end of title 42, where they couldn't expel people for Covid related reasons anymore. And then that how many people they tested for covert. They're coming across the Rio Grande river with a backpack.
- [87:32]
Constantine Kissin
Right?
- [87:32]
Joe Rogan
Shut the fuck up.
- [87:33]
Constantine Kissin
The one thing I wish the right did better on this though, is to talk in more humane terms about it. It's always, yes, there is a kind of like these fucking illegals.
- [87:41]
Joe Rogan
Right, right, right.
- [87:43]
Constantine Kissin
We would all do what they're doing. We.
- [87:46]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And the way they talk about it, they're, you know, like Trump, Trump did that too. They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats also. A lot of them are very hard workers. If you talk to Springfield, Ohio, one of the things that these people that employ some of these people are saying is they're so thankful that they have this opportunity there. Haitians are just like everybody else, man. They're just fucking people that want to do better. And a lot of these people that hire these folks are saying they're super hard workers, they're doing jobs that nobody wants. They're very thankful for it. It's an opportunity for them. And then also you have bad people, right?
- [88:20]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [88:20]
Joe Rogan
Just like all groups of people that come from war torn, fucked up places and they come over here, you're gonna have good ones and bad ones.
- [88:27]
Constantine Kissin
I'm just saying, I just wish that Aya, which is perfectly like what you're saying, Francis, this is the point you made very well. It's like you just wish that Ayah was directed at the people who are allowing this to happen instead of the people who are coming, because that's not gonna make things better.
- [88:42]
Joe Rogan
What we need is we need to vet people. But also we need protections that people aren't being forced to work for inhumane wages. And if we start doing that in America, well, how we're no different than Foxconn in China with the fucking suicide nets around the building. We're allowing people to take advantage of people that have no hope. And that's. That's not. We. One of the great things about American manufacturing, if you have a plant in America and you have regulations in terms of like, what they're supposed to be paid and healthcare and the amount of hours they work, work, you can ensure that you don't have to feel bad about buying a thing from those people. Like, if you buy whatever something that you know is made in America, for sure. Like if you buy a Ford truck that's made in Ohio or wherever they make them, hopefully it's made in America. So then you don't have to feel bad that, like, that's what's going on with all these people coming across here. Ironic. They moved so many jobs and so many things over to Mexico to get people to work for almost nothing so that these fucking corporations can make a little bit more money. And we allowed that to happen. And when we allowed that to happen, they killed American manufacturing. They killed it. That's that Roger and Me movie, the. Have you ever seen Michael Moore's documentary on it about Flint, Michigan? It's a great documentary, but they just pulled out of Michigan where they were making all the cars and then these people have nothing, right? They were check to check while they were working there. And then instant extreme poverty. It's a horrifying documentary.
- [90:17]
Francis Foster
And what these people don't realize is the effects that has on the community, not only the poverty element of it, but work brings dignity, Joe.
- [90:27]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [90:27]
Francis Foster
It brings purpose.
- [90:28]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [90:29]
Francis Foster
It doesn't matter like, you know, the level of job that you have. But if you're going out, particularly for me, men, and you're doing a job, maybe you hate it, but you know what? You're earning enough money, you can feed your kids, you can feed your family, you go, I'm doing my job as a man, Yes, I am doing what I am meant to do. When you take those jobs, which a lot of, like for instance, in our country in the uk, a lot of these. These places were built around the factory, the plant. They were the literal hub of the community. And then you had bars and cafes and restaurants around that. When you take that out of a community, you are ripping the literal soul out of it. And all of a sudden these People who once had purpose and dignity have got nothing. And it doesn't matter even if you give them money and you go, look, here's your benefits. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants a life that's aimless. Nobody wants a life where you are dependent on handouts.
- [91:24]
Joe Rogan
This is what scares me about the future, really, because of AI, what scares me about the future. And Andrew Yang was really the first guy to bring this up. He was talking about automation. And I think that automation and AI, they built a whole road in China in like a very short period of time, just using roads or using robots rather, and AI. Did you see that?
- [91:46]
Constantine Kissin
I didn't know.
- [91:47]
Joe Rogan
They're much more advanced than we are with drone technology. Like, we've seen some of the light show drone shows that they do in China. China, they're unbelievable. Unbelievable. Like dragons moving across the sky. It's incredible. All these drones moving in synchronicity. They're all coordinated by AI and computers and they're flying together like showing, making objects in the sky. It's beautiful. So their AI technology and their drone technology and their automation has already allowed them. This was a resurfacing project. It says here it is. So this, this is no humans, man. This is all robots. And they did this shit in record time. They did the whole road. Like, if you're a guy who. This is your livelihood, you should be fucking terrified. And that was the source of this recent, this recent thing that was going on with the longshoremen's union, right? Because the longshoremen were going to go on strike. And they're like, hey, we're going to get fucking replaced. We know what's going on here. We want some protections in place because they see what's happening in other countries. I think it's. Is it Singapore that has a completely automated system for removing cargo. And you watch it and it works 24 hours a day. You don't have to pay it. It doesn't have kids.
- [93:03]
Constantine Kissin
No injuries.
- [93:04]
Joe Rogan
No injuries. And it's. And it's really good. They're fucking super effective and they're going to get more effective so you have less mistakes. You don't. You. You completely eliminate human error, you know, and then once they iron the systems out and they get them even better and better and more robust, you're. You're going to have no need for so many people that are working. So what do you do? You give them universal basic income. You tell them, find something that gives you purpose, like, oh, Christ. At the same time they have AI goggles and they're watching virtual reality all day and they're not even living in the world anymore. You're just getting a check from the.
- [93:39]
Constantine Kissin
Government and free food and an AI girlfriend.
- [93:41]
Joe Rogan
And an AI girlfriend. That makes plus points. I mean, it could get really strange in this country in a short amount of time and.
- [93:51]
Constantine Kissin
But you talk to these people, right? You talk to Elon. What does he say about stuff like that?
- [93:55]
Joe Rogan
They all think it's inevitable. I think they're all right. I don't think you could stop it unless something disastrous happens like a nuclear war or some sort of a horrific natural disaster that kills the grid. We are probably just a decade away from an unrecognizable world. 2014 is not that different than 2024. It's kind of real similar. Cars look the same. You still had an iPhone. It's like, not that you still have a laptop. Like, how much is different? Your Internet's a little faster. How much is different? Not that much. 2024 to 2034 is going to be fucking bananas. We could see a complete upheaval of society if you have one party that's completely in control of the political process. And you know, there's no room for a third party now because they kind of boxed out the third party. There's libertarians, but like, good luck. Good luck. I voted for a couple of them. Good luck. They can't win. Right? It maybe could get to that point where Republicans can't win. That could be real. And then the Democrats are going to act just like all tyrants. All groups of people that have massive control over everything. They don't want to relinquish some control for the, for the sake of democracy. Shut the fuck up. The only people that have ever did that were the Greeks and they were on drugs. Drugs. They were doing acid. And they said, hey, everybody should have.
- [95:14]
Francis Foster
A vote, you know, and if you have a populace that is basically just dependent on handouts, what you've got is a docile, defeated population.
- [95:23]
Constantine Kissin
Yes, dependent. Dependent on you for survival.
- [95:26]
Francis Foster
They're dependent on you for survival. So it's not even in their interest to challenge you.
- [95:31]
Joe Rogan
That's completely outside their interest. There's. They have no leverage. There's no you must money.
- [95:36]
Francis Foster
So. So, you know, what are they gonna do? The thing that, the thing that worries me is I was, I was reading about the driving jobs and how many driving jobs there are in this country. And driving is still a very, very well paid job in this country. If you're a lorry driver, you, you Earn a really good salary in this country. And that's great. That is brilliant. But the moment automated driving comes in, like, that's a whole swathe of mainly men who have got nowhere to go.
- [96:03]
Joe Rogan
It's a very good point. It's millions of jobs.
- [96:06]
Constantine Kissin
So they think it's inevitable, huh?
- [96:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they think it's inevitable. Yeah.
- [96:09]
Constantine Kissin
I agree with them.
- [96:10]
Joe Rogan
I don't know how we adjust to that. You know, human beings have had to make some major adjustments over the course of human history, right? Moving into cities, dealing with mechanized things like cars and trucks and trains. These are massive adjustments that we had to make. But I don't think any of them are like that. This one?
- [96:28]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, this is the industrial revolution on steroids.
- [96:31]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's like. And it's also coming at the same time as transhumanism. It's coming at the same time as this potential integration with artificial intelligence that we're experiencing augmented goggles, which is like the tip of the spear. And then you're going to eventually get chips, you know, once things like neuralink and there's a few other competing programs. Once they develop something that enhances human productivity, enhances your mental capacity, your ability to perform, maybe physical capacity, you know, they're going to be able to do things in our lifetime that are going to make being a regular human seem stupid. Just like being naked in the cold seems stupid. Like, why would you be naked? You could just be warm, you fucking idiot. Like why they're freezing when you get a nice down jacket on you fucking more. And that's what it's going to be like cognitively. Like, why would you want to be depressed when you can have clarity and enlightenment and you. You could have instantaneous access to the wireless grid. As long as you don't have bad thinking. As long as you don't do anything that we don't like. As long as you don't have to shut you off.
- [97:39]
Constantine Kissin
Well, there is a book about this.
- [97:40]
Joe Rogan
You know, it seems.
- [97:43]
Constantine Kissin
Have some soma and chill the fuck out, bro.
- [97:45]
Joe Rogan
That book, when you read it, especially because I read it in high school, I think, which was already 1984. So it's like, oh, this is bullshit. It's like space 1999 didn't really work out that way. You know, there was a TV show about people living in space in 1999, because that's what they thought. So in the 80s, when did Orwell write that book?
- [98:07]
Francis Foster
It would have been. I think it came. No, he. Because he was in a sanatorium. No, he Was dying of consumption. TB at the time. I think it was 46. It came out.
- [98:17]
Joe Rogan
He wrote it while he was dying.
- [98:18]
Francis Foster
Yeah, he wrote it. That's why it was kind of dark, man.
- [98:21]
Joe Rogan
1949.
- [98:21]
Francis Foster
Oh, 49.
- [98:23]
Joe Rogan
So he writes it right after the fascism of Nazi Germany and all that stuff.
- [98:27]
Constantine Kissin
And Stalin.
- [98:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, and Stalin.
- [98:29]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [98:30]
Joe Rogan
And so he writes this book and it just seems ludicrous at the time, but now it's like a prophecy.
- [98:36]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [98:37]
Joe Rogan
And especially the wrong think. Stuff like that. That is wild.
- [98:42]
Francis Foster
You know, just going, just touching on the AI thing. What's interesting about AI is it's also obliterating middle class jobs. Yes, Middle class jobs like graphic designer. Pretty soon that's going to be.
- [98:53]
Joe Rogan
That's not just middle class, but all the coders.
- [98:56]
Francis Foster
Yeah, all the coders. All the coders are going to be gone. You're going to look at the law, accountancy. Why are you going to employ an accountant Right. When you've got an AI to do all your books?
- [99:05]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [99:05]
Francis Foster
You just feed it into the algorithm. It will sort it all through. Boom.
- [99:09]
Joe Rogan
My fear is that it's going to get to a point where why don't we use AI for government and have really objective government that doesn't have greed or lust or desire or the need for power, ego or to be validated. It doesn't need any of those things. It doesn't ever tweet out I hate Taylor Swift. It just fucking runs. Everything with the objective is to make the world better. And the objective is equal allocation of resources, particularly like natural resources that are really all of ours. Why should we have these corporations that control all the oil when the oil is in the ground? The ground belongs to the humans. Why should anybody have an unbelievable amount of influence on everybody else just because they pull oil out of the ground?
- [99:54]
Francis Foster
That seems crazy until it goes rogue and goes, you know what? Humans do a lot of damage to the planet.
- [100:01]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That's the problem with being objective. The reality. You guys got to get your shit together. We're going to kill you all. Like, it'll have a meeting with us and say, hey, we need to get the robbery, murder, rape rate down to zero.
- [100:14]
Constantine Kissin
Let's put all the men in prison.
- [100:15]
Joe Rogan
If we don't, we're just gonna kill everybody.
- [100:19]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, man.
- [100:20]
Francis Foster
You know, it's. That's why you, you feel that. I know. And people always hype up elections. They always hype up elections. America, Americans, you do show business in elections better than anyone. I went to that Trump rally. This was like, it's One of the greatest shows I've ever seen.
- [100:39]
Joe Rogan
He must not have watched MSNBC because it's a Nazi rally.
- [100:43]
Constantine Kissin
There were so many Israeli flags there. It was unbelievable.
- [100:46]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, there was a lot of Israeli flags.
- [100:47]
Constantine Kissin
Israeli flags. Loads of Jews. Loads of people recognize.
- [100:50]
Joe Rogan
Super hard to call it a Nazi flag with a lot of Israeli flags. I mean, Nazis.
- [100:53]
Constantine Kissin
Just so silly meeting this bullshit.
- [100:56]
Joe Rogan
But that's what they're doing. They're just trying to win.
- [100:59]
Constantine Kissin
But you. You can't. You can't. The words have fucking meaning, Joe.
- [101:03]
Joe Rogan
They do. Yeah.
- [101:04]
Constantine Kissin
They're supposed to and for a reason. And that word, it's supposed to have a very specific meaning. And it's like. It was a kind of a thing where, like, if someone said that about somebody, you'd go like, holy shit, I better really make sure this guy isn't that. I better really make sure this isn't that.
- [101:17]
Joe Rogan
It used to be like, oh, my God, the guy's a Nazi. Like, you want to follow him, see where he's going to some secret meeting, right? Oh, my God, he's really a Nazi.
- [101:24]
Constantine Kissin
It's so irresponsible. It really grinds my gears, that shit, man. It's just. I know you want to win, but this isn't winning. This is making the whole thing fucking worse.
- [101:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's not good. It's not good. And it also is not good for them because all those mainstream media Companies, all the MSNBCs of the world that are doing this kind of shit, you're going to lose more and more credibility. Like, you're already hemorrhaging credibility. This is the reason why the Washington Post, why Jeff Bezos had to make that. Write that article. So we need more representation of conservative voices. We can't be just endorsing presidents because you all agree to one thing and you want to, like, educate the world. We're not activists. We're supposed to be journalists. This is the reason why this business is hemorrhaging money and lost amazing amounts of credibility. Like, stunning. We've never seen a time where more people have lost faith in mainstream news.
- [102:17]
Francis Foster
But here's the thing. And you talk about this. It's one of the things you talk about, and you talk about it brilliantly. Words have changed their meaning. Words no longer mean what they used to. I saw this post from Mark Maron, and he's like. He was going for the world record about trying to mention the word fascist every other sentence. And I'm going. And I'm sure. Look, I'm sure Mark's A decent guy and whatever else. But I'm sure if you sat down with Mark and you go, mark, explain to me what fascism is.
- [102:44]
Joe Rogan
What do you mean by it's virtue signaling? It's signaling to the crop, to the tribe. That's what it is. It's the idea. And it's also. There's a lot of jealousy. Mark used to be at the top of the heap. He used to have the number one podcast. Now it's like it's not even the top two, 100. He was a great guy when he was number one. It's a lot of fun apologizing everybody for being a dick when he was younger. Oh, man, nuance is very important. It's very important with human beings. And as soon as you, like, conveniently categorize something as fascist and white supremacy, I think, is another word he likes to use, you're being silly and you're ruining your own credibility. You're going to get a bunch of people that agree with you. Yeah, right on, man. But. But they're silly, too. We're just a bunch of human beings trying to coexist. What we want out of this election is a greater country. The country's supposed to be a team. That's what it's supposed to be. It's the most amazing thing, this idea that we're all in this together collectively. We're a tribe of people, but we, because of our fucking stupid instincts to be on teams, we've divided ourselves right down the middle, essentially, depending on who, who, whose poll or what you want to read. It's kind of like pretty close down the middle. And one side thinks the other side is the end of everything, and the other side thinks the same.
- [103:59]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, it's.
- [104:00]
Joe Rogan
It's so stupid. It's so stupid. And it's just we don't have much time. Human beings live a hundred, if you're lucky. I'm 57, so I'm three quarters of the way dead if I'm lucky. If everything goes great, why spend any time on nonsense? Why spend any time just pledging allegiance to your tribe? Why not just try to have a perspective that will enhance this situation and let people understand that we're really over our skis. We're out of our fucking minds. We're really, like, foaming at the mouth here. There's important things. And the important thing is we gotta figure out a way that we don't have a nuclear war. We gotta figure out a way we make it easier to make a living. We have to figure out A way to make it safer for people. People. We have to figure out a way to secure the borders and make sure that we're not letting in terrorists. We got to figure out a way to not have terror cells activated because it's going to be convenient politically. Look, we got to figure out a way to not have FBI agents inciting people to enter the Capitol building. We got to figure out a way to, like, there's a lot of shit we have to figure out collectively as a group.
- [105:06]
Francis Foster
And there's also the tragic element of it. And people don't talk about this tragic element enough. If you think about it, we live in an ever more atomized society. We, we hang out less, we see, we, our social groups are getting smaller and smaller. That's just a fact of how society is going. Think about the people who've lost friends. Look whose relationships broke up, marriages broke up over politics.
- [105:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [105:34]
Francis Foster
There's a guy right now in the UK waking up in a little flat somewhere and he's looking around and he went, oh, I lost my relate my marriage. I don't see my kids anymore because of Brexit.
- [105:46]
Joe Rogan
It's crazy.
- [105:47]
Constantine Kissin
That's dumb.
- [105:48]
Joe Rogan
It's not just Brexit, it's over here. It's like if you're married to a Trump supporter and you're a Harris sport and you're fighting over the dinner table, that person's the enemy. It happens to people all the time. Or people get red pilled, you know, and then they sort of like want to leave their ideological group. And then the other person that you're with, maybe a business partner, maybe, maybe your lover, they hate you. Now you're part of the enemy. And a bunch of people that don't give a fuck about you, they don't care about you. And you've pledged allegiance to people that don't even know your name. They don't even know, they don't know a thing about you. And they're lying on TV every night and you're still all in for them. You're making homemade signs, running out the door and holding this. Or you putting signs up on your lawn.
- [106:36]
Constantine Kissin
But righteousness is such a drug, man. Like when we were standing in that line in New York, there was a guy that walked past and he was like, enjoy your fucking Nazi rally. To like a family with young kids. You're not a good guy. Yeah, you're not a good guy when you're doing that. I don't care what your politics is, you're not a good guy. No, you're not. You feel good when you're shouting that you're not behaving in the right way.
- [106:56]
Joe Rogan
It just gives cunts the ability to scream at people because they think they're right, you know, especially if you've already labeled those people Nazis. You know, enjoy your Nazi rally. Like, you could yell whatever you want at Nazis. You know, that was the whole thing back in the day. Remember? Punch a Nazi. Like, okay, but who gets to determine who the Nazis are? Like, if you're In World War II, yeah, you have to punch a Nazi. But if you're in Brooklyn, I bet that guy's not really a Nazi. He might just have a tie on.
- [107:25]
Francis Foster
Or listen to this podcast.
- [107:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you might be listening to this podcast. You might get punched on the subway.
- [107:32]
Constantine Kissin
But you know what? I would. I would love Kamala Harris to come on this podcast. That's the podcast I want to see the most.
- [107:39]
Joe Rogan
But I just. I feel, like, very strongly that if it's going to be done, it has to be done like a regular podcast, because that's the only way it works. The only way it works is just sit down, talk with somebody. Can't go to some ballroom and some hotel where they control everything and they have cameras ready and they want to edit stuff out. It's like, no, that's just too weird. It's not the same thing. Like, you go to see Colbert, you know, you go. You're on his set. You don't ask him to make a set, like, at the White House. Like, you know, you're doing it where he does it.
- [108:07]
Constantine Kissin
Totally.
- [108:08]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [108:09]
Constantine Kissin
But that is why I'm still. We've had a depressing conversation. I'm still excited because that thing you're talking about, you know, Jeff Bezos, that's the market working. Your ratings are tanking. No one trusts you. No one buys your fucking newspaper paper. Okay, well, who's doing shit, right? Let's have a look around. Who's successful? Oh, it's this. Okay, maybe we need to do that thing you were talking about. Gore Vidal, Buckley. Maybe we need to actually have a conversation. Maybe we need to have. I'd love for you to have Trump and Harrison here. That'd be interesting.
- [108:38]
Joe Rogan
Well, that's what I said to him. I said what really should be. The two of you sit down and have a conversation for as long as it takes. Just. No. No moderator. No one there.
- [108:47]
Constantine Kissin
No. Not even a moderate. Not you.
- [108:49]
Joe Rogan
I don't think I need to be in that way. It would be hilarious. How long would it take what are you. Okay. How are you going to fix the economy? How are you going to fix the economy? Like, I want to do this. That was my idea.
- [109:03]
Constantine Kissin
No time limit.
- [109:04]
Joe Rogan
No time limit.
- [109:05]
Constantine Kissin
Like the UFC back in the day.
- [109:06]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I mean, that would be how you'd really like. When you see two people on a panel and they're talking about things and one person really knows what they're talking about, Bill Maher or whatever. When that happens, it's always fascinating to watch someone, like, way out of their league league, and they get exposed. But that same person could be doing a softball interview and they look like a wizard, they look like a genius, because they already have their predetermined answers to questions that have already been presented to them. So they prepare. And that's essentially what you've been getting a lot with Kamala Harris. You've been getting a lot of this prepared stuff. You know, well, I was born in a middle class family. And then she has this thing that she's going to say and you know, yeah, it's.
- [109:48]
Francis Foster
And you know what to me is, I would love to see this, but broaden it out in society. To me, the most interesting conversations are when you talk with people who disagree with you, who see the world in a different way.
- [110:01]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [110:01]
Francis Foster
Because not. That does two things. Not only do you learn something, but number two, you find out some of the things you think are bullshit.
- [110:09]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [110:09]
Francis Foster
And they're wrong. And then they go, hang on, actually, that ain't true. Look at this, look at this. And you're like, oh, wow. Actually, you know what? You're right. So it makes your ideas stronger and you become a more fully rounded human being.
- [110:21]
Constantine Kissin
But that requires good faith. Yes, that requires good faith. Those conversations don't happen if both of the people are playing to an audience.
- [110:29]
Joe Rogan
People have a really hard time with good faith. The problem with good faith is you also have to admit you lost.
- [110:34]
Constantine Kissin
Yes.
- [110:35]
Joe Rogan
Right. And people get so attached to an idea, they say an idea, and once they said it, that as a part of their fucking DNA. And they will argue for that. They don't want to be wrong. They don't want to be wrong. Even smart people.
- [110:47]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, especially smart people.
- [110:49]
Joe Rogan
I had an argument with a friend of mine once about divorce and that women get paid more in divorce. We were talking about, like how the divorce system is kind of because lawyers prey upon it in order to jack up their rates. And then they turn the couple against each other. They are like, wait, well, he said this, but that motherfucker. And then next thing you know, I want more. And then they get what. Really, what's happening is the lawyer's jacking up his rates. He's dragging things out. And then, you know, I know guys that have been devastated by divorces. And his argument was like, yeah, but isn't it fair? The woman gets all the money because women only make 75 cents a dollar for what men make. I go, do you know that's not true? Like, do you understand what that is? And he didn't want to believe it. He was like, no, that's not what I go. It's. They have different jobs and they work different hours. That's where the 75 cents comes from. It's not like a guy and a woman work together at the same job. They both do the same job job, and the guy makes a dollar and she makes 75 cents. That's not how it works. He was like, no fucking way. I goes, yeah. And then we looked it up. He was like, whoa. Because in his mind, it was always, the labor market is unfair because women are getting fucked over because men take advantage of them. The way we're talking about them taking advantage of illegal immigrants and making them work for less. Now, if you were working in a corporation, a woman does just as good a job as a man, and yet she's willing to work for 75 cents. You'd have only one women working for you. Like, they just want to make money. They don't give a fuck about, like, all that the DEI shit. That's just how they can make more money. Like, what I got to do to get a part of this, what I have to do to get grants, what do I have to do to get. Get more loans? Like, what I have to do. Like, that's all that shit is.
- [112:26]
Francis Foster
Yeah, and it's. Again, the problem is, is it makes everything so divisive. Because, look, the vast majority of people, the vast majority only care about fair fairness. They want it to be fair or as fair as possible, right? And when something is so egregious and so unfair, that's where anger takes hold. That's where resentment takes hold. And that's when people get nasty because they feel that they've been cheated. And in some cases they have, and they go, you know what? I'm not going to take part in your game. Your game's rigged. So you know what? You your game, and this is what I'm going to do. And once that happens, you don't have conversations, you don't have good faith, and you don't have Any type of solution to the problem.
- [113:08]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And the things that's going to help, that is psychedelics. That's why take it off the schedule one you dumb asses. A bunch of people that have never experienced it. It's. There's a lot of hope in the future. And I think one of the big hopes is that these kind of conversations that we have are popular.
- [113:27]
Constantine Kissin
Yes.
- [113:28]
Joe Rogan
Where that wasn't even a thing 20 years ago. It was impossible. Get if you were having a conversation about issues there be this. It would be on television and would be approved experts. It'd be someone who's an expert from a university or someone who's an expert from a corporation and they would be talking to you about things or someone from the government. They would be. They would. They had full control of the narrative. They don't have that anymore. No. That's what's weird. And we have it for a small amount of time before AI takes over. There's like this brief wind where people have access to like real discussions and then AI is going to take over.
- [114:05]
Constantine Kissin
Well, this is happening though, like in the uk there's the Conservative Party is having an election now. Like whoever wins that, we'll have them on our show and have a conversation and find out, you know, what they're all about. And by the time of the next election here and in the uk, I think this is going to be the primary vehicle if you want to get your message out there, this kind of conversation.
- [114:22]
Joe Rogan
Well, I think they're probably all going to do their own too, which would behoove them, you know, like if someone like, let's say someone like Rand Paul, if Rand Paul decided to make a podcast, I bet that'd be pretty fucking popular. Real popular. Like look what happened to Tucker Carlson after he left Fox News. Like they fired him from Fox News because they didn't like what he was talking about. I don't know what the whole story was. I've heard a bunch of different versions of it. But the bottom line is he became way bigger. Like if you thought he was a problem when you had him under control when he was working for a corporation now, he could talk about whatever he wants. He's got some guy on who said he sucked Obama's dick. That guy out for like an hour and a half talking about doing blow with Obama and blowing it. This is fucking nuts. I was like, what are you doing? Like, this is crazy. But that's the kind of shit you can do if you don't have any sort of guardrails you don't have any executives, you don't have any producers.
- [115:17]
Francis Foster
But the thing that gives me hope, Joe, is most people, people, they're not gonna want that. Most people, what they're gonna want.
- [115:25]
Joe Rogan
But hold up. The Obama sucking the guy's dick. Yeah, that guy sucking Obama's dick. A lot of people.
- [115:32]
Constantine Kissin
Everybody likes dick sucking.
- [115:34]
Francis Foster
Yeah, it is, it is. But, but I think, I think when people are craving a middle ground, people crave that. People desire that. One of the reasons that, you know, the BBC is in free fall at the moment and they're hemorrhaging viewers and listeners and all the rest of it is because people think that they're biased and they have every right to. And, but when people talk about the demise of the BBC, most people, they're not happy about it, they're sad because they know that it's, that it was a valuable place where people from left and right came together to debate ideas, to share ideas, and people would listen and make up their own minds. Yeah, people still crave that, Joe. And that's what gives me hope, is that that's what people want. You're going to get people who want to listen to, you know, you know, I was in a gang bang with Obama or whatever it was. People, people are going to clip that now and whatever. But, you know, you know, right, that's a fringe. But the average person is curious and they just want to hear here a.
- [116:40]
Joe Rogan
Center ground and they want a source that's interesting and reliable and that's what the BBC used to be. Yeah, you know, the BBC is, they, they put on that Attenborough documentary where we went to the Congo. The, the first time they ever saw chimpanzees eat monkeys. Remember that? Like that's Attenborough. That's BBC. The, the BBC had one of the best documentaries on the Congo I've ever seen in my life. It's incredible. It's like, I used to have it on vhs. It's like multi, part, multi part documentary on the Congo. They used to do incredible stuff, but in America to a lesser extent, that, that was Vice News, like Vice News used to be incredible. Vice News used to do all this really interesting stuff and I had Shane Smith on from Vice News, who, he started it, used to be the head of it and then he walked away from it and it completely fell apart. Went woke, went broke.
- [117:26]
Constantine Kissin
Because he left.
- [117:27]
Joe Rogan
No, well, he left and then it wasn't just that he left. It was also like, like who were the people that were coming in right there's these young woke kids that are coming in from universities and all of a sudden they had this idea of what they should be doing in journalism, and it's journalism slash activism. And it just became bullshit and nobody paid attention to it anymore and it lost all its money.
- [117:48]
Constantine Kissin
Well, that's why I always say, like, people love to share on the mainstream media, as I do to some extent, but my view is we need a mainstream media, just not this one.
- [117:57]
Joe Rogan
Well, we. I think the way to do it is the way it's. It's probably going to be independent mainstream media.
- [118:04]
Constantine Kissin
Right.
- [118:04]
Joe Rogan
And. And when it stops being independent, people will give up on it and go to a real independent one. And unfortunately, they'll probably be fake independent ones that are like state sponsored, that are trying to make it look like they're real and they're. You're gonna get a bunch of CIA plants and a bunch of different intelligence agencies, infiltrate podcasts, you're gonna have that kind of stuff. But that's just like, you know, that's like the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping case when you have 12 different FBI informants and two people that don't know what the fuck is going on. And these are the people that are coordinating the kidnapping. It's mostly the FBI informants, which is just nuts. They. Things get infiltrated.
- [118:41]
Constantine Kissin
You know, it's got to suck to be that vice guy because you build this thing and it's working and it's great.
- [118:46]
Joe Rogan
And not just that he went broke.
- [118:48]
Constantine Kissin
Wow.
- [118:48]
Joe Rogan
I mean, not broke broke, but. Right. I think he lost $1 billion. Wow. Yeah. Maybe more.
- [118:55]
Francis Foster
Wow.
- [118:55]
Joe Rogan
You know, nuts.
- [118:56]
Francis Foster
You know, it's. But, but again, I come back to it, which is like, there is so much potential now. There is so much space. And if you are one of those journalists. And look, let's be honest as well, we've all got our biases. Everyone here has got me, mate.
- [119:13]
Constantine Kissin
I'm perfectly neutral.
- [119:15]
Francis Foster
But everyone's got what they think. Think. But if you do and you're open about it, people accept that. People go, you know, okay, you know, Joe's. You know, whatever Joe is, I'm. Whatever you Constantine is, whatever he is. But they will be far more accepting of that because you are honest, you're authentic. It's like David Mamet said, words that come from the heart go to the heart. And if you were prepared to have that honest conversation whilst admitting that this is what you think and this is what you believe, believe that is a far richer, more fulfilling experience for the viewer or the listener than someone just Giving out talking points and saying, I agree. Because that rapidly gets very boring. There's an audience for it. But, you know, back and forth and the cut and thrust and. Hang on, you said this, but you're getting. That's. I love watching that. I love listening to that.
- [120:03]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Well, real honest discourse is fascinating, especially by two intelligent people that have different perspectives. It's fascinating because you say, this guy's obviously very smart and this person's obviously very smart and they're talking and you get a chance to see, like, what. How do you come to your conclusions? Are you willing to admit that other people have points like. Or are you just steamrolling them when they question you about something that's contradictory about the way you think? Like, how are you thinking? And I think we all learn by watching other people think and discuss things.
- [120:35]
Constantine Kissin
Absolutely. But the difference is this is where the medium is. The message point really applies. That takes a lot of time.
- [120:41]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [120:41]
Constantine Kissin
Take any issue that's. That's in any way controversial. The idea that you can. The reason issues are controversial is that people don't agree. That's what controversial means, Right? People don't agree. People have different perspectives. The reason they have different perspectives. It's an. Is that. That is an issue which is difficult to have consensus on.
- [121:00]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [121:01]
Constantine Kissin
That means that issue so complicated, you cannot discuss it in five minutes. Minutes.
- [121:05]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [121:06]
Constantine Kissin
It's gonna take hours. And something really. It's gonna take, you know, for. Sometimes it's gonna take years of research to come to a conclusion about certain things. The idea that you can adjudicate that through the medium of two people having a bust up on a show where they're just. It's optimized for anger and outrage. That's ridiculous. That's not how you get to the truth. The way you get to the truth is you take your time and you have a conversation. Yeah. And that's why I think we keep using that word, hope. But that's what I do have, hope, as you say, before AI takes over that that format allows. I'm not saying that's the only way these conversations goes. There are a lot of dumb shit. There's a lot of dumb shit being said on podcasts all the time as well. But there is the space for that kind of conversation as well. And that is good.
- [121:50]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Podcasts are a lot like Twitter conversations. It's a lot of dumb shit. A lot of dumb shit. But a lot of good shit too, right? Yeah. And that's very similar in that they're both kind of unregulated.
- [122:00]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And. But it's important that you hear dumb shit. It's important. It's really important that you hear it. And also it's why I believe, you know, I hate political correctness, because it stops conversations from happening. Or what it does is it means, like, take immigration. If, like you say, or if you say this point of view, that's racist, you're only going to talk about 70% of the problem. You're not going to talk about this 30% here. If you don't talk about this 30% here because it's politically incorrect, you are never going to solve the problem. Because the only way to solve the problem is to talk about every facet of the problem.
- [122:37]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [122:38]
Francis Foster
And if you eat, you know, and if you're not going to approach that 30%, we ain't ever going to come to us.
- [122:42]
Constantine Kissin
And that's when you get riots like we had in the uk. Yeah, that's how that happens.
- [122:46]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [122:47]
Constantine Kissin
When you try and suppress the discussion, that's what happens.
- [122:49]
Joe Rogan
And you guys don't have guns and we don't have.
- [122:51]
Constantine Kissin
Thanks. We don't have guns. Because it's getting pretty heated, man.
- [122:53]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I've seen some stuff seems wild over there, man.
- [122:57]
Constantine Kissin
It is.
- [122:59]
Joe Rogan
You know, the real fear if Trump wins is civil discourse or civil unrest, rather, in this country, a lot of people are scared of that because they remember what happened when he won in 2016, you know, and there's. There was some of it that was real peaceful, like the women's march. There's no violence at the women's march to speak of, you mean? I'm sure there was some, but it wasn't like the BLM marches. The BLM marches were crazy.
- [123:22]
Constantine Kissin
Right. Do you think that's going to happen if he wins?
- [123:26]
Joe Rogan
I think there's a certain amount of that that's coordinated, and I think there's a certain amount of that that they. They do to initiate civil unrest to. To further their political goals. I think there's a certain amount of that that's real. I think that's always been the case. There's always been agent provocateurs that go into peaceful protests and start smashing things so the cops can come in and shut everything down. And then there was during the blm. I'm sure you saw during some of the protests and riots that there was these bricks that were just left everywhere. Did you see that? Yeah, there was at some places there was pallets of bricks that were just left in the middle of the course of where these protests would be didn't make any sense. Like, why is this there? And there was all these conspiracy theories and there's all these people that are absolutely dismissing the conspiracy theories. I'm like, why would you dismiss it? Like, what do you. Do you think that some people benefit from civil unrest? They certainly do. If you wanted to get the public riled up and get. You just start smashing things and lighting them on fire and give people this feeling that they can do that.
- [124:36]
Constantine Kissin
That was a wild time, man.
- [124:38]
Joe Rogan
Crazy time.
- [124:38]
Constantine Kissin
That was a while. And a lot of the people who were right at the front of that, cheerleading it on from the sideline lines. It's like what they did with Joe Biden, like yesterday he was the leader of the free world, this perfect guy. He's got no cognitive issues. And then tomorrow, bam, he's done.
- [124:52]
Joe Rogan
Well, the defund the police stuff, that was all. That was all about defunding the police. Are you out of your fucking mind? You don't know jack shit about police work and you're saying defund the police. But even some people that knew about it were using it as a political tool. Kamala Harris was saying, defund the police.
- [125:09]
Constantine Kissin
Totally. Would you ask her about that if she comes?
- [125:12]
Joe Rogan
Sure, sure. Yeah. I'd ask her about changing perspectives. I think it's important that people change perspectives. Like people say, oh, they flip flopped. Well, that's probably good. That means they, maybe they were faced with better evidence and they realized they were incorrect. I would rather have that and someone, like, sticks to some stupid, erroneous idea forever.
- [125:29]
Constantine Kissin
The real question is, did they actually change their mind?
- [125:32]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [125:32]
Constantine Kissin
That's the question.
- [125:33]
Joe Rogan
Or are they just a politician like some people are car sales. Some people tell you, you need the undercarriage protection. You need that undercarriage protection.
- [125:41]
Francis Foster
And it's.
- [125:42]
Joe Rogan
It's very important.
- [125:45]
Francis Foster
And it's also the way they marketed that they were like, this is a left wing idea. I'm telling you right now. People who are poor want police.
- [125:55]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [125:56]
Francis Foster
If you live in a poor, deprived area with high rates of crime, you want police.
- [126:01]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [126:02]
Francis Foster
You don't want a drug dealer on your. On your, on your, on your, you know, selling crack. You don't want armed gangs roaming around. You want them to come and protect your family. So the idea that we're going to get rid of police and all of a sudden all the rapists are going to go, you know what, mate? Decide. Not for me.
- [126:16]
Joe Rogan
Well, there was also so many weird ways to handle the riots. Like one of the things they did in New York City is just let people do whatever they wanted to do and let it burn out. Which is apparently that was a way that people theorized that was the best way to deal with civil unrest way back into the 60s. But it was proven not be correct. Like, it's not a good idea because it encourages people to do more.
- [126:41]
Constantine Kissin
You've got kids, Joe.
- [126:42]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [126:43]
Constantine Kissin
If your kids are running riot, do you let it just burn out?
- [126:47]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [126:48]
Constantine Kissin
Fuck no.
- [126:48]
Joe Rogan
No. Well, especially when people. Look, if you're in New York, like, I'm sure you saw, like Saks Fifth Avenue, all these different stores that got their windows smashed and people just stole millions of dollars worth of shit. Smashed, destroyed, lit things on fire. Like, why would you ever want to come back to that city? Why would you ever want to have a business there? You're going to kill the businesses that keep people coming to the city and help the economy. That's insanity.
- [127:15]
Francis Foster
It's dispiriting. It's actually dispiriting because when you saw those events happening, you just felt like I was watching, going, what is happening? What is happening to society? Because every time someone commits a crime and they get away with it and you. It has a demoralizing effect on you because you think, hang on a minute, I work hard, I pay tax, I do all of this and you are allowed to just go around, roam, scot free, nick all the stuff, make, and then there's no repercussions for it. So why am I taking part in a system which is effectively punishing me?
- [127:50]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's disheartening. That's the best way to put it. I gotta pee real quick. We'll do that. We'll come.
- [127:54]
Constantine Kissin
I'll do that.
- [127:54]
Francis Foster
All right, cool.
- [127:55]
Joe Rogan
Yay. Much better. Can't concentrate. Would have to be.
- [127:59]
Francis Foster
It's possible. Yeah, that. That is so true. The moment you meet, it's. I remember doing a gig at the Edinburgh Festival and the crowd were just awful. They just weren't going for anything. And I was like, why is this? And one of the comedians turned around to me, it was raining outside. I'm like. So he went, they've all got wet socks. You can't be happy when you've got. You can't be happy when you've got wet socks.
- [128:24]
Joe Rogan
Maybe you should try some hate speech. Didn't the guy get arrested in Ireland because he refused to call a boy a girl?
- [128:36]
Francis Foster
Yeah, the teacher.
- [128:37]
Joe Rogan
A teacher, yeah, yeah. They literally put him in jail, right?
- [128:40]
Francis Foster
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [128:41]
Joe Rogan
How long is he in jail for?
- [128:42]
Francis Foster
I. It's been A while. It's been a while. And it's.
- [128:46]
Joe Rogan
That's dystopian. That is. That's really crazy.
- [128:49]
Constantine Kissin
But it's the logical conclusion of this hate speech book, right?
- [128:53]
Joe Rogan
Jail.
- [128:53]
Constantine Kissin
If it's hate speech, then you have to prosecute it. If you prosecute it, you have to punish people.
- [128:57]
Francis Foster
If.
- [128:58]
Constantine Kissin
To punish people. How do you punish people? You put them in the fucking cage.
- [129:00]
Joe Rogan
Fucking crazy.
- [129:01]
Francis Foster
And it's also as well, it's a whole safetyism issue, which is we need to keep people safe.
- [129:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And if words are violence, that's another one.
- [129:09]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And if somebody is going around spreading hate speech, he's making people unsafe.
- [129:14]
Joe Rogan
Even if they just feel unsafe. Yeah, they feel unsafe.
- [129:18]
Constantine Kissin
They feel unsafe.
- [129:18]
Francis Foster
Yeah. But. But. And it's. That's what it's all about. You've made me feel unsafe, therefore I am uns safe. And what do we need to do about that? You need to be. You need to be got rid of. You can't have it here.
- [129:29]
Joe Rogan
Not just that, but you set a massive example to anybody else. You step out of line, we're going to put you in a cage.
- [129:33]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [129:34]
Joe Rogan
So it's time to start calling boys girls or girls boys or whatever the we tell you to. It's just completely illogical. It says he was jailed because he broke, like a trespassing order, kind of for not. For going back there when they told him not to.
- [129:47]
Constantine Kissin
That would be the third time, though, right?
- [129:49]
Joe Rogan
So tell him to go back to the script school. Yeah, he went back to the school to talk to people or something, and that's what he got arrested for. So he got fired. Why? He was not arrested for his position on transgender pronouns, as claimed in misleading social media posts. Social media users shared a video Burke's arrest outside the school Sept. 2, where he's heard saying, I have a right to work here. I have a right to be here. Not to tell students that they need to take puberty blockers. Oh, wow.
- [130:14]
Constantine Kissin
But, Jamie, this is the third time, though. What was he arrested for in initially, because that's really kind of what we're talking about.
- [130:19]
Joe Rogan
Scroll down at the bottom, though. Let me hear what it says more. It says there other people off camera also say you're arresting him because he won't endorse gender. Transgender ideology. And Enoch Burke, teacher being arrested for not accepting transgenderism. People circulating the clip online suggest Burke was arrested for his views with some writing breaking. Irish police arrest teacher in Auckburg for not endorsing trans ideas. So was he fired for not that Terms of injunction that instructs him to stay away from the school. So he must have been fired for that. And then he refused to just leave. And so he kept coming back. And then they arrested him.
- [130:56]
Francis Foster
I mean, you know.
- [130:57]
Constantine Kissin
No, but that said he was arrested for a third time.
- [130:59]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [131:00]
Constantine Kissin
So I'm guessing the previous two arrested might not have been for trespassing. They might have been for things that he said.
- [131:05]
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's fine.
- [131:06]
Constantine Kissin
That'd be worth checking.
- [131:09]
Francis Foster
You know, this is the thing that I find the most egregious is when you get kids involved. Because the thing is with kids, kids don't know. They don't understand the concept, a lot of them, of, especially at a young age, of gender. So. And they're very impressionable of children. Of course they are. So you can pump them full of this stuff and eventually they can believe it. They're not like adults who go, hang on a minute, mate, the odd kid is. But the majority of them are highly suggestible. That's why children have parents, because they're not capable of making their own choices.
- [131:45]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [131:46]
Francis Foster
It really is that simple. That's why there's teachers. That's why there's, you know, there's adult leaders.
- [131:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [131:51]
Francis Foster
So they go to them. You are not capable of making this decision because your brain is not mature enough. It is not developed enough. I am an adult. I will be the one making your choices. And then when you get to whatever age, age 18, 21, depending on the thing, then you can go off and you can live your life and you can do whatever you want. Until then, I am the one in charge. And to this idea that then you then let as something as huge as this, where there's going to be medical intervention and surgeries. I'm going to call it what it is, Joe. That's child abuse. It's child abuse.
- [132:25]
Joe Rogan
At least they've stopped it in the UK in terms of the surgeries and puberty blockers sort of describing more. But it's still like he said, he didn't want to call the student they. So they told him administrative leave and he kept coming back to the school.
- [132:40]
Constantine Kissin
Okay.
- [132:41]
Francis Foster
Right.
- [132:41]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [132:42]
Joe Rogan
So that's what it is. Instructed staff that a pupil who was transitioning to another gender wished to be referred to by a new name and the pronouns they. A change supported by the pupil's parents. Burke, from Castle Bar, County Mayo, who teaches history, refused, citing his religious beliefs. The school put Burke on paid administrative leave after he allegedly confronted the principal at a public event and questioned her in A heated manner, a claim Burke denies. After Burke continued to attend the school, it obtained a court order barring him from the campus. He continued to show up, prompting his jailing for contempt of court.
- [133:17]
Constantine Kissin
Right, so it sounds like a guy making a stand, basically.
- [133:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [133:22]
Francis Foster
You know, and you know what's even more nuts about this? Ireland's a Catholic country.
- [133:27]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [133:27]
Francis Foster
Ireland is a country that.
- [133:29]
Joe Rogan
With Muhammad being the number one name.
- [133:31]
Francis Foster
For young boys in Ireland.
- [133:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [133:34]
Francis Foster
Really?
- [133:35]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. As a number one name for boys.
- [133:39]
Francis Foster
I mean, the, the Catholic faith has changed a lot.
- [133:44]
Joe Rogan
A lot of people moved there.
- [133:46]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah.
- [133:48]
Francis Foster
But. But you know what? As well, it's.
- [133:50]
Joe Rogan
It's find that statistic. Cuz that statistic's crazy.
- [133:53]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [133:53]
Joe Rogan
Like I typed it and it didn't pop up right away. So I don't know, there might be a way in which it is, but.
- [133:59]
Constantine Kissin
Maybe it's number two.
- [134:00]
Francis Foster
Maybe it's number.
- [134:00]
Joe Rogan
I think it was number one for young boys in like one of the most recent years.
- [134:05]
Constantine Kissin
I hope they're not calling the girls that.
- [134:07]
Joe Rogan
That would be so cruel. You can't even draw her.
- [134:10]
Francis Foster
Yeah, but yeah, it's maybe in one city.
- [134:13]
Joe Rogan
It says in Ireland and Galway. City. City. Is it Galloway? Yeah, that's what pops up. When I typed in Muhammad on top of it, it said Brian's number one name in Ireland. Brian Ryan. Ryan.
- [134:26]
Francis Foster
Yeah. But you know, this again is what gives me hope, Joe, is that especially in the uk, we have fought really long and hard against this stuff. There was a report done by one of the, one of the most important pediatricians called Dr. Cass, and the Cass report. And it basically took a bulldozer to all of this crap, to all of it. And you go, this is what we can do if we just start challenging. And we go, no, boys cannot become girls. Girls cannot become boys. That doesn't mean that if, you know, somebody is having gender dysphoria, they need, they don't have therapy. Talk to them, help them. Of course, all of this thing, we need to look at the reasons why girls are wanting to transition in their droves. Why is this particularly? 40% of girls who are wanting to transition, they've got autism. We need to talk about this, we need to investigate it and we need to help these kids. But just giving puberty blockers and sending them on the stream to essentially have their life medicalized for the rest of time, that ain't a solution.
- [135:35]
Joe Rogan
And it's profitable, which is even scarier. So once these, these institutions become established and start making money off of it they want to continue to.
- [135:43]
Constantine Kissin
Well that's why I think we're ahead of the US in the UK because we don't have that profit motive to do it. Do you think I was going to ask you, do you think we've reached peak woke Joe? Do you think we're past it now? Do you think we've turned the tide?
- [135:55]
Joe Rogan
It's still here. I mean it's like we killed off most of the wolves but there's still a lot. I think it's always going to be a thing that people ascribe to. There's always going to be a thing that people join up with because it's very, they're very aggressive in the ideology and people like aggressive things. Just like Nazis never really went away. There's just like way less of them. You know, like when you get on Twitter day you could still find some real Nazis, which is kind of crazy because you would have thought after 45 we hit peak nine Nazi, you know, it's over. But it's not. It's. There's always going to be woke people. There's always going to be crazy, ridiculous people that take things to the extreme. In the 60s it was the Weather Underground. You know, you're always going to have people that are out of their mind. You're always going to have antifa. You're always going to have something like that where people believe the most extreme version of something because it gives them meaning and it's a group you could just join, anybody can join and then you start fighting for it because those other people are the downfall of civilization.
- [137:00]
Constantine Kissin
You know, I wonder about that online stuff because based on what I see, I don't see it reflected in like normal day to day life. And we had Ashley Sinclair on our show last time we were in the US and she was talking about all these idiots running around going repeal the 19th. You've heard this bullshit. And she said at the time, she said a lot of this is foreign influence. And I was like, okay. I mean, I don't know. And then you had this tenant media thing. Did you follow this?
- [137:26]
Joe Rogan
What is that?
- [137:27]
Constantine Kissin
Tenant media. It was tenant tenant media, yeah. Did you follow that?
- [137:31]
Joe Rogan
Not much.
- [137:32]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. So it was basically the Russian government through various proxies gave $10 million to people in America. I think it was Lauren Chen and her husband's company.
- [137:41]
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's right. So what was going on with that? Were they saying positive things about Russia?
- [137:47]
Constantine Kissin
I don't think from what I've seen I may be wrong about this. I Didn't see any evidence that any of the influencers ended up being paid were like, on the payroll to do specific things.
- [137:59]
Joe Rogan
Do you think it's valuable to them to give the money just so they can kind of. Those people can be dismissed.
- [138:05]
Constantine Kissin
It's so that those people can pollute the space. Right. If everyone thinks the right wants to repeal women's right to vote.
- [138:11]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [138:12]
Constantine Kissin
That divides society and it creates chaos. Like, when I see all these Nazis talking online, I don't see that reflect like, we went to the Trump rally. None of them were there. That every time Israel got mentioned, there was a big cheer, you know what I mean? So I don't see that reflected in reality. And I wonder how many of those thousands of likes and retweets are real.
- [138:30]
Joe Rogan
Right. That's a factor. Did you see the thing that happened at the Trump boat rally in Florida where a Nazi boat pulled up and they had like, swastikas and everything in the whole deal and with masks on and everybody just started hosing them, get the fuck out of here. Because it's a kind of agent provocateur type deal where you probably have someone, somewhere, group that wants to make all the Trump people look like Nazis, so they show up. And then I saw media outlets report on it, like the Nazi flags were seen at the Trump rally again.
- [139:03]
Francis Foster
And it's a great point, but the thing we always focus on with the right is the far right, and we should focus on them and we should talk about them. We never talk about the far left and communism and people. I'm Venezuelan. There were people in the Labor Party party eulogizing Chavez round about 2005, at the same time as he was putting my relatives in jail.
- [139:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [139:26]
Francis Foster
And then they were just there going. And then they've all moved on and they've disappeared like butterflies in the wind. And no one addresses it anymore. And everyone's like, oh, well, that's fine. You go, so where's the consistency?
- [139:38]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [139:39]
Francis Foster
If you're going to hold the right to account and you should hold the right to hold the right to account, you. You've got to hold your own side to account with people who are like, well, communism was never tried. And you're going, I think it was, mate.
- [139:50]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, just wasn't tried. Right.
- [139:52]
Constantine Kissin
Well, the reason I asked you kids.
- [139:55]
Joe Rogan
In Brooklyn have it figured out.
- [139:56]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [139:57]
Constantine Kissin
The reason I ask you about pequote, because I heard Rahm Emanuel, remember, he was Obama's chief of staff, mayor of Chicago, he was on Sam Harris's podcast, and they Had a very interesting conversation where people in the center of the left, they are backtracking on wokeness. And quickly they're like, oh, that was just a moment. Yeah, we let some crazy. That's kind of how they're talking about.
- [140:17]
Joe Rogan
Is that where Sam's at right now?
- [140:19]
Constantine Kissin
I don't know about Sam. Sam was. I think Sam is uber anti work. He always has been. And he was pushing Emmanuel to kind of go, why doesn't Kamala Harris come out and say, look, I went along with all this woke shit like many of us did. Right. That was a moment. I was wrong about that. We're not talking about that now. We're talking about make America better, make America richer. Like, why doesn't, why doesn't, why don't those people just draw a line under it and say that was a mistake? And a lot of people on the center left now are awake to this moment. I think that's. Excuse me, that's why I asked you because this does seem to be something happening.
- [140:55]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, something's happening. And I think it's. It was inevitable because it's. So much of what people are dealing with is just stupid. There's so much pushback against it. And that's what Trump represents. That's what the reason why there were 75,000 people outside of Madison Square Garden. And you know, the place was overflowing with humans. That's what it represents. Like, people are tired of being badgered. They're tired of being lectured to. They're tired of being told what to think and what to say and what to believe. And they don't like it. They don't like that this one party is keep talking about change, but they've been in control for 12. 12 out of the past, or is 12 out of the. No, 14 out of the best?
- [141:37]
Francis Foster
16 years.
- [141:38]
Joe Rogan
That's crazy.
- [141:38]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [141:39]
Joe Rogan
How can you be talking about change? You know, they're tired of it. They want something to be different that makes them feel like there's hope.
- [141:45]
Constantine Kissin
And they're also tired of being called bad people.
- [141:48]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [141:48]
Constantine Kissin
Because at the end of the day, left and right, they're both half the fucking country.
- [141:52]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [141:53]
Constantine Kissin
Right. So you can't run a country by claiming that half the country is evil. And in some way, you can't do that about the right. Can't do that about the left. Look, the people on the right, they are the firefight fighters and the police officers and the soldiers. Stereotypically speaking, of course, there's left wing fire. You know what I mean? You're going to run a country without firefighters and police, you're going to run a country without soldiers.
- [142:16]
Francis Foster
I mean, you tried running a country without police, mate.
- [142:19]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. It doesn't work very well. Right. And likewise, you need also the more creatively minded people who are on the left and who run administrative share and other kinds of things. You need both sides to react. Realize in this country you're all Americans. In our country, you're all British. Like, you want to be tribal, go for it, but let's agree we're all one and then we can go be tribal against China or whatever, you know what I mean?
- [142:41]
Joe Rogan
We need someone who's a leader who can articulate that that's a part of one of the major parties who can say that and sort of unite people. And you're not getting that from either side. Either side is. The other side's stupid and they're ridiculous. They're going to be the downfall of us. And this is a dumb person. This is an evil person. There's no uniting. There's like it should be. I don't think you have to do it that way. I really don't. Because I think if somebody just avoided all that stuff and just focused entirely on the good things that are possible. If we all work together, everybody who's not going to listen to their opponent, who's constantly shitting on them, if the, if this one person is on the other person relentlessly and the other person doesn't even respond to it, just talks about what they want want to do, that person looks really stupid and petty. But if as soon as you engage now you're just like them. And now it's like, I had to hit them back. Like, do you. Do you really? How about just say what you think you can do and say what needs to be done and how you're going to do it.
- [143:40]
Francis Foster
And I think this is a reason why we in this, in the UK have made far greater strides with the whole, with the whole medical intervention with children issue is because. Because it's not really a political issue. People on the left have spoken out against it and people on the right and the, and the people like heroes like J.K. rowling. And the moment you get people like that talking about it on both sides, people are then able to listen because it's someone from their side who they think is inverted, comma, is a good person going, oh, she's talking about it.
- [144:14]
Joe Rogan
Did you see the thing that she tweeted about the puberty blocker study that they wouldn't really Release.
- [144:18]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [144:19]
Joe Rogan
It's so crazy. They made a puberty blocker study. They found out it doesn't help the kids.
- [144:24]
Francis Foster
No.
- [144:25]
Joe Rogan
Doesn't help their mental health. And they thought that it would embolden the other side, so they decided not to release it. So you found out that it's bad for kids. You don't want people to know that it's bad for kids. And she wrote so you could keep doing terrible things to kids.
- [144:39]
Francis Foster
You know, and then.
- [144:41]
Constantine Kissin
But again, it just shouldn't be a partisan issue.
- [144:43]
Joe Rogan
Right, of course. Especially with children. Jesus Christ. That's crazy. Also the thing in the uk, you guys have socialized medicine.
- [144:51]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [144:52]
Joe Rogan
So there's not this giant machine behind it the way it is here. The other thing about America is. Advertisement so this is one of two countries in the world where pharmaceutical drug companies can advertise. And that's not good. That's clearly not good. We're fucking full on captured by them and the amount of money that they can make. And then the whole system behind them is so deeply ingrained in money. You know, it's just they, they've got their hooks in deep in politics and television and media. They got their hooks in deep and that's not good. And that's why you can have these conversations in America. And medical stuff gets connected to left or right wing.
- [145:30]
Francis Foster
But the great thing is with America is your First Amendment. You're so lucky to have that, Joe. You're so lucky, lucky that you don't have what we have where people, where politicians are openly talking about we need to tackle Islamophobia, you know. And you go, I was talking to a very, very senior member of the. Of the police. He came to one of my gigs and then we got the tube home. And this is a very, very senior guy, deals with government. And I go to him, how long do you think until we have hate speech laws in the. In the UK In England, because Scotland has a different league legal system. And he went probably two to two and a half years. And the fact. And the fact that. That in this guy was just very matter of fact about it made me realize that we're in trouble. We're in trouble because if government comes in and starts legislating and starts clamping down, that's when you're living under authoritarian regime and Rhonda. Authoritarian and rule. But the fact you have this free speech amendment and you've said it yourself, if you don't believe in free speech, you're not American. That, that is such a beautiful thing.
- [146:42]
Joe Rogan
This is the way people have to look at it. You would think that stopping hate speech would be a good thing, and it would. It would be great if everybody voluntarily stopped using hate speech. It would be wonderful. But as soon as you can define hate speech in as simple a terms as calling someone by their original name when they've decided to change gen, like if you don't want to be Francis anymore, but I insist on calling you Francis, and you can put me in jail for that. That's really crazy. And it's dangerous because it's just control. And you can't allow that kind of control to be in the hands of any government body where because of the words out of your mouth, they can now put you in a cage. That's a crazy precedent to set. Forget, put yourself outside of who's right or who's wrong and just think about the concept of the words that you say. An opinion that you espouse can put you in a cage. You don't ever want to give the government that because that can keep moving. That, that definition of what is hate can keep moving. It can keep moving to a really ridiculous place, which I think it is. If you're. You're doing things like gender identity, especially if someone decide, like if Admiral Levine, that person, that Rachel Levine person, if you can't say that looks like a guy, if you can't say that and you get in jail, well, now you're getting locked up for what? For accurate observations. This is nuts. And it's dangerous because once you set a precedent, then they can keep moving that further and further down the line. They attach you to a social credit score system, and then they decide whether or not you can buy groceries. And now they can kind of dictate your behavior in the way you talk and think. And now we're in 1980, 1984, like legit.
- [148:20]
Constantine Kissin
And. And you don't have to even be a genius to understand this.
- [148:23]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [148:23]
Constantine Kissin
If you look at history, look at all the societies where speech is heavily restricted, you would not want to live in any of those places.
- [148:30]
Joe Rogan
And you don't get any creativity. You. You miss out on everything that it is to be an American. You miss out on all the cool. This is like the. In terms of, like, entertainment, how much entertainment comes out of the United States that the world consumes in terms of music, comedy, movies. Movies. A giant percentage of the world's entertainment comes out of right here. Because you have the ability to freely express yourself.
- [148:52]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And that's the reason Hollywood's in the Doldrums now because they don't have the ability to freely express themselves.
- [148:59]
Joe Rogan
You know who doesn't get fucked with rappers. They can still get wild. They get wild. They get wild. They still do. They. They say crazy in rap songs you could never get a away with in any kind of rock and roll song or a pop song. You know that Mexican ot, you know, knows who that guy is. I have that dude in here. He's awesome, he's hilarious. But he's got this song. He's like, lately I've been. The rap is ridiculous. It's so crazy. But it's like that old school, braggadocious, fun kind of like music. Music again, entertainment. He's a wonderful guy. You meet him. He's a really nice guy. Very cool. Very cool dude. Very fun. But it's an art form. It's an art form. Just like death metal is an art form. It's like a kind. People like different shit. And rap, for whatever reason, has gotten a pass because people are scared of being called racist.
- [149:57]
Francis Foster
That's black privilege.
- [150:00]
Joe Rogan
Poor Mexican privilege cases.
- [150:03]
Constantine Kissin
They should have had him open. The Trump Writer.
- [150:07]
Joe Rogan
Amazing. Yeah, I think he. I think he performed in front of Andrew Schultz's special. Yeah, I think he did. You know, or at least Andrew used his song.
- [150:16]
Francis Foster
I mean, what they did to Andrew was wild as well. Did you follow this?
- [150:19]
Joe Rogan
It was fascinating, but again, had the opposite effect. Yeah. You know, so that was this Brooklyn theater. They found out right after he did the Trump podcast. Three hours later. Later they pulled his special. Like he was supposed to be filming a special there. He'd already done a walkthrough of the theater, like approved the theater. They were going to sell tickets and they pulled it. And it's just a political thing.
- [150:44]
Constantine Kissin
What do they. These, I'm assuming, business people, right?
- [150:47]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [150:48]
Constantine Kissin
What the fuck do they think they're achieving by doing? They think they're gonna suppress a special.
- [150:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they think, well, no, they know he'll do it somewhere else. He's big enough where it doesn't matter. Andrew can do anything, you know, he's huge. So he could go anywhere else. Anybody, every other place would be happy to have him. But they take a stand, you know.
- [151:05]
Constantine Kissin
They'Re signaling to their audience.
- [151:06]
Joe Rogan
Yes. They're signaling to their community that people don't feel safe, you know, because it's, It's. But it's, you know, it has the opposite effect. It just makes Andrew bigger. People find out about. They get outraged. They can't wait to get tickets for his new place. So he's. Now he's going to go to a new place that's bigger and better, and he's going to. It's the special. Be even bigger.
- [151:27]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [151:27]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [151:28]
Francis Foster
And that's.
- [151:29]
Joe Rogan
He's an undeniable guy.
- [151:30]
Constantine Kissin
Totally.
- [151:31]
Joe Rogan
There's certain people that are just undeniable forces. They're undeniably talented, and they'll. They'll find a way through all this stupid shit. Tony's one of them. Yeah, he's undeniable. He'll. He'll make his way through this and be better than ever. But this attacking that they did with Andrew just was so ineffective, and it just made him bigger. But it wasn't really attacking. They just said they don't want to be a part of it, which I guess if it's your fucking theater and you just have this decision and you want to do it and it's not really going to harm him. It's just going to. If you understand the publicity effect, the. What it's going to do is the opposite. It's going to make this person who just interviewed Trump even more popular. Like, go, have at it.
- [152:07]
Constantine Kissin
Did you have a lot of pushback after you had Trump on?
- [152:09]
Joe Rogan
I have no idea. I don't pay attention.
- [152:12]
Constantine Kissin
That's a smart thing to do.
- [152:13]
Joe Rogan
The only way to do it. I've adopted that a long time ago, and I wasn't going to change it for Trump for the Trump interview. I just. I'm not paying attention.
- [152:22]
Francis Foster
I don't know, you know, but figures like Andrew and Tony are really important for the culture because they send a very, very strong message to everybody else. You are not going to cancel me. You are not going to win. And in fact, the tactics that you use to try and suppress me, to try and stifle me, all they're going to do is make me better, bigger and stronger. And that's such a beautiful message to send out to everybody. Just go, you. You know what? You tried to stop me. All you're doing is making me even more powerful.
- [152:53]
Joe Rogan
I think people are realizing that now. I think it really worked back in the day. Like, you could cancel some people back in the day. There's some people that have been legit. Like Milo. He got legitimately canceled. Remember that guy used to be on. He was on Bill Maher show. He was everywhere. He was always these videos. He would sit down. I had him on the podcast. The guy was great. Back in the day, Bill Maher actually compared him to Christopher Hitchens, and everyone was like, shut the fuck up. There Matt, who's like, funny, articulate gay guy with a bit of a drug problem. That is a Republican. Everybody's like, what the are we going to do with this? And for him, it was a great avenue to get through. And so wildly popular. They remove him from Twitter. They remove him from everything. They remove him from YouTube, and he kind of goes away.
- [153:37]
Constantine Kissin
What did he say?
- [153:38]
Joe Rogan
Well, he talked about his own experiences as an underage man.
- [153:44]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, that's what. So it sounded like he was kind.
- [153:47]
Joe Rogan
Of condoning, kind of condone. And he was kind of saying, not on. Just on my podcast, but there was another podcast where he talked about these men becoming like mentors to young gay boys and that it actually helps them. And everyone's like, you're talking about pedophilia.
- [154:04]
Constantine Kissin
The Greek model, right? That's what the Greeks used to do.
- [154:07]
Joe Rogan
It's considered different when you think about man to boy, who is a gay boy versus man to heterosexual girl. Like, people get much more offended at the idea of a grown man and a young girl that's heterosexual, then that's molesting. Whereas with a lot of gay guys, and I'm not saying this is right, but their attitude is this is what they wanted when they were 14. Like, that's what Milo said. Like, I was predator. That's literally what he said on the podcast. Believe me, I was the predator. Like, it's, like, ridiculous. But that's his experience. And he was talking about. And they were like, that's all we needed. Like, this guy is defending pedophilia. And they went after him. And that was back in the day when Twitter was solely controlled by the left, and you could cancel a guy like that, and it was effective. And, you know, I remember a lot of arguments when people were trying to de platform people. Like, when they de platformed Trump and there was a few other people that got deep, they were saying, de platforming works. This is what's been shown. Deplatforming works. Right. For a little while. But you fucking idiots, it's actually gonna. If someone crazy like Elon comes along and has the money to back it up and says, I'm gonna step in and I'm gonna make a Wild West Twitter. Like, they had talked about doing two. Like, when I had Jack on the podcast, he was talking about doing two versions of Twitter, doing a regulated, moderated Twitter and then a Wild West Twitter. And I was like, when's the Wild West Twitter? And that's what Elon did. He opened Wild West Twitter. Yeah, dude, There's Some shit that I find on Twitter, I'm like, what? Like, this is not. And they're doing a pretty good job of hiding that. Where you got to click through to see some of the more egregious things that people say.
- [155:50]
Francis Foster
But yeah, I mean, the problem is as well is that you deep platform, there's gonna be somebody out there who's gonna go, you know what? We're gonna build a platform, right?
- [156:00]
Joe Rogan
But you know what they did with those platforms? They infiltrated those platforms with hate, right? So like if maybe reasonable right wing people decided to leave and start their own thing, you saw these bots that would go to these unregulated places and say the most outrageous, horrible shit. And they might not even be real people. And according to. We've talked about this many times, but according to an FBI analyst who was examining Twitter and the interactions on Twitter, his estimation was it could be as high as 80% bots. So if you try to open up, whether it's truth, social or just pick a name, Gab. Gab had a problem with that. You just get bombarded by bots who are trying to ruin your company, Right? And whether that's the government or whether it's competing social media companies, like if there's no laws about this, if there's no laws about creating and you're running, you know, whatever it is, threads, and then this other thing opens up and you go, you know what, let's fill that place up with Nazis. And you just start having these computers that you have connected to all these accounts just posting the worst shit possible. Michelle Obama's got a dick and the White House is filled with pedophiles and you just like flood it with craziness and now nobody wants to go there. You go there and you're looking for like a reason, reasonable Republican, conservative social media platform that you could join and you could talk about things that are bothering you. You can't even go there.
- [157:29]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And what they did is in the case of parlor, is that they then shut it down and they pulled the plug. Do you remember that?
- [157:35]
Constantine Kissin
Take their servers away, all of that, Right?
- [157:38]
Francis Foster
Yes.
- [157:38]
Joe Rogan
Perfect example. Right now you don't have this right wing version of this thing.
- [157:43]
Constantine Kissin
Well, this is one, one thing I'm really hoping Elon gets to because he's been kind of busy, as we know. And I think him taking over Twitter is awesome. It's really opened up a lot of things that needed opening up. But one of the things you talked about early on was bots. And I feel like there's probably a lot more work to do on that. So when, when they get round to that, that would be make. That would make Twitter better. Because I do hear from a lot of people who are just like, I'm glad it's more open now, but every time I open my for you thing.
- [158:07]
Joe Rogan
It'S like, the thing is, it's like, okay, if you decided that the way to eliminate bots is to require ideas, this is where it gets weird. Because there's data breaches. Yeah. Right. So if you're posting something under Skippy McCoy, 69, that's. You got some crazy fake name and then all of a sudden it gets revealed that this is you, and maybe you work in a right wing office and you're posting something about abortion rights and people just decide, let's get rid of that guy, because now we know it's you.
- [158:36]
Constantine Kissin
Right. So that's complicated. Yeah.
- [158:39]
Joe Rogan
People have been fired from things they posted on Reddit.
- [158:41]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [158:42]
Joe Rogan
Where their shit posting.
- [158:43]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah.
- [158:44]
Joe Rogan
Posting on Reddit is a lot like talking when you don't mean it in a group chat where you're just saying ridiculous like, Ari Shafir says the most horrendous things. He doesn't mean it. Ari's a great guy.
- [158:54]
Constantine Kissin
Right.
- [158:55]
Joe Rogan
He's saying something because it's funny to say. And when you stop that, because you can go and investigate who this person is, people say things they don't mean just because they want to get a rise out of people, because they're bored and they're like an anonymous person, they'll say horrible. They'll come up with a horrible meme. Are we really going to fire these people? They're going to lose their livelihood for something that is just for them. It's like sport.
- [159:18]
Constantine Kissin
Almost definitely not. But what I'm saying is, to the extent of foreign governments interfering with what we think is the truth and what we think is the real conversation, to the extent that other nefarious actors are trying to manipulate views, clicks, etc. That's a big fucking problem.
- [159:34]
Joe Rogan
It's a big fucking problem. And it's a problem that doesn't seem to be addressed at all.
- [159:38]
Constantine Kissin
No.
- [159:39]
Joe Rogan
And we don't even know how many people are involved in this because it's so difficult. If you're going through a VPN and you've got a computer bank and you've got these people that look real, because you can now you can make artificial photos of families. You can make. You could decide, I want a black woman and a Chinese man and this is their family. And AI, I want you to create their kids. And so you can have all these posts on Instagram, like, oh, you can follow these people over the years. It's all bullshit. And that's so easy to do now. And you could do it on Twitter. It's way more easy because nobody even wants to see pictures of you. So you could have a bunch of posts about things that happen to you during the day that make you look like a real person and just Nazi shit.
- [160:21]
Francis Foster
And this is the issue as well, is that when people talk about, you know, hate speech, they're making an incredibly complex issue, very simple, because they go, oh yeah, we're going to get rid of hate speech. And then you, you go, well, what does that mean? And what is it going to be the effects of that? And also as well, look, there's a lot of young kids on social media. I don't know about you, but when I was a young kid, I said lots of dumb shit. Are you then going to destroy someone's life for the next 20 years because they said something that could be racist or maybe is racist when they're 15 years old?
- [160:52]
Joe Rogan
Also, there's some things that people see that people have attempted, attempted to make mainstream that people have rejected. Like one of them is minor attracted persons. Right. You've seen this, right?
- [161:06]
Francis Foster
It's map. Joe, please, let's have some respect.
- [161:08]
Joe Rogan
I've seen minor attractive pedophiles, legitimate professors say that it's offensive to call someone a pedophile and you should call them a minor attracted person and not to marginalize them. What if it becomes hate speech to call someone a pedophile? Right. That is not. When you see how far we've gone. That's not outside of what could be possible.
- [161:28]
Francis Foster
Yeah. Because if you follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion, and if they are a minority and all minorities need to be protected, particularly from a majority who dislike them, and particularly in the case of pedophiles where the majority fucking hate them. Then you go, well, you know this, you know, this person can't help who they are, therefore they need protection and they are a marginalized group.
- [161:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And how much of that is being manipulated by foreign entities? How many people are out there trying to get us riled up about stuff? I remember the Rene Diresta thing where she found out that there was a Texas separatist meeting that was organized by these troll farms right across the street from this Muslim meeting. Like they literally had them on the same block. So they're both Protesting like, fuck you, fuck you. And they're just riling people up.
- [162:19]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [162:19]
Joe Rogan
And it's. The idea was that they're doing this to. There's a certain percentage of that that's going to diminish our faith in democracy. That's going to diminish our faith in our system.
- [162:30]
Constantine Kissin
Well, this is what Yuri Bezmanov was talking about. You've seen the stuff. Right. And I 100% believe there's a lot of that going on right now.
- [162:36]
Joe Rogan
100%. It's too accurate. Yeah. That speech that he gave in 84, when you apply it today, it's like, oh, my God, he was off by like a decade or so. But not by much, because a couple of decades ago, if you were in a university, it's still pretty ridiculous. There was just no social media to amplify it to the rest of the world. It was, like, slowly taking root. But the thing that amplified it to the rest of the world was social media, and that was the unseen element that really threw the gasoline on the fire.
- [163:06]
Constantine Kissin
I really think this issue actually, in my opinion, is a national security issue. And I think that when you look at. It's not just this social media influencing, but it extends beyond on that. It's other countries, hostile countries, funding colleges and universities. It's doing all of that kind of stuff. I really think the west needs to get serious about that and go, do we want foreign countries to be dictating to our citizens what the truth is?
- [163:31]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [163:32]
Constantine Kissin
And we're going to have to reckon with that. That can't just be left to its own devices because it's not going to end well.
- [163:38]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's not. And it's scary that most people aren't aware that it's even taking place. Place. You know, they think that these people with these opinions, this represents a sizable portion of the country, and it's real. And a lot of it is not real. And we don't. We're not sure how much of it is real. And so, like, we don't even really know what the conversation actually is between all of us. And then there's no, like, reasonable people who are calling for civility, where people go, hey, I like how that guy's talking. There's no reasonable people calling for some sort of coming together and compromising. I mean, the most interesting people in the Republican Party right now are people who used to be Democrats, which is fascinating.
- [164:18]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [164:18]
Joe Rogan
It's like people have abandoned ship.
- [164:21]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And, you know, and the thing that worries me is I talk. We talk To a lot of. I talk to a lot of young people, and we've had young people on the show. One person in particular was. Was talking about the fact that young people don't believe in democracy anymore.
- [164:35]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [164:35]
Francis Foster
They just go, the system doesn't work. It doesn't represent me. Whenever we elect someone, they're never going. They don't do what we want to do, what we want them to do. What's the point? What we need is an oligarchy. We need strong men to come in and sort this out. And you're like, whoa, careful what you wish for. Because I've seen that.
- [164:56]
Joe Rogan
More socialism, which always leads to an oligarchy.
- [164:59]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [164:59]
Constantine Kissin
Or just a dictator. That's why there are people on the fringes of the right who are obsessed with Bo Bukele. And Bukele has done a lot of good things in his country.
- [165:09]
Joe Rogan
Who is Bukele?
- [165:10]
Constantine Kissin
He's the president. Is it Salvador?
- [165:11]
Francis Foster
Yeah, El Salvador.
- [165:12]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. He's the president of El Salvador. Incredibly popular. He sorted. He basically took anyone who was a gang member and just threw them in prison.
- [165:19]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [165:21]
Constantine Kissin
And the country's a lot better.
- [165:22]
Joe Rogan
Right. I've seen all that on a lot better.
- [165:24]
Constantine Kissin
And, you know, I don't know enough about it to say whether it's entirely a good thing or a bad thing, but you can see the temptation to kind of, well, why don't we just have one guy come in and sort the shit out?
- [165:35]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [165:35]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [165:35]
Constantine Kissin
You know.
- [165:36]
Joe Rogan
Right. But, you know, the real problem is how did they get there in the first place?
- [165:40]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [165:40]
Joe Rogan
Or the real problem is, like, what's. Instead of, like, cutting off the cancer, saying, why are we getting cancer? Like, what are we eating? What are we consuming? What's wrong with our society that's giving us these people that are gang members?
- [165:50]
Constantine Kissin
Yes.
- [165:51]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [165:51]
Joe Rogan
And I'm not a gang member. You're not a gang member. So. Okay, a lot of people grow up and they don't become gang members. So how do we make more of that? How do we make more people that are producing productive, normal people that are integrated into society and less gang members?
- [166:05]
Constantine Kissin
And some people are going to be gang members, and there's no getting away from that.
- [166:10]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [166:11]
Constantine Kissin
And those people, we have the police for that if we haven't defunded them.
- [166:14]
Joe Rogan
Right, right.
- [166:14]
Constantine Kissin
So you have to have a combination of. On the one hand, you teach people how to live a good life. What you're talking about. On the other hand, if you don't want to follow the rules, we're going to crack down on you pretty fucking hard.
- [166:24]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [166:25]
Constantine Kissin
Those two things together is how you get a good society.
- [166:27]
Joe Rogan
Right. And when you make excuses for why people are doing it, you call it systemic racism, all these different things, and you treat them with leniency. Then you're encouraging people to do crimes because there's no repercussions. So you're again, not getting to the root of what's causing them to be like that in the first place, but you're minimizing what they're doing because you address the fact that there's a root. So again, you're dealing with the cancer. You're like, let the cancer grow. Like cancer is part of life, instead of saying, why am I getting cancer?
- [166:56]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And also the dangerous thing with Bukele, I went on a date with a girl who's now Salvadorian journalist, and I said, look, I don't know anything about Bukele. Tell me about him. And she went to me that he gets his people to turn up if he doesn't like a newspaper, a story in the news, and his guys have a word and to get this suppressed.
- [167:23]
Joe Rogan
Well, this is the fear of the big strong man, right? And this is the fear that a lot of people have of Trump. They're scared that he would do that. The thing that they keep bringing up, which is ironic, is him turning the justice system on his enemies. You guys are so crazy. This is like the nut. This is like hooker is getting mad at strippers. What are you saying he has even done it yet?
- [167:50]
Constantine Kissin
She gets a tits out.
- [167:52]
Joe Rogan
This is so nuts. You guys are. It's the way they're talking about it. It's almost like they don't know what they're doing or they're not aware of what they're doing.
- [168:01]
Constantine Kissin
Well, they know what they're doing. I don't give a fuck.
- [168:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, one of those. Either one's not good. But, you know, from my conversation with Trump, I don't think he's the monster that everybody thinks he is. And I think. I think for sure there's been a gross distortion of a lot of the things that he said that's led to this. You know, the fine people hoax, the Russian gate hoax. There's so many different. The suckers and losers hoax. There's all these different things that people attribute to him to try to make him way worse than he really is instead of just like addressing the things you don't like about him that are real, you know, and so it's this distortion, and we know there's a distortion and that's why when he sits here and he talks for three hours, people are so interested. It's not just because what he says is interesting. It's because we know you've been bull bullshitting. We know that you've used the legal system to try to arrest this guy. You've done some Banana Republic shit where you're trying to weaponize the legal system to go after your political opponents. We know that. So when you get a chance to see that guy talk, you're like, oh, so this is who he is. And again, he's being charming. He knows millions of people are listening. He's talking to me. I've met him before. We have a mutual good friend in Dana Wallace White. He knows I'm not going to be an. So he's comfortable, but you get a chance to see. Well, he is that guy. Part of him is that guy. Like, it's not an act. That's who he is. He is that guy. He's not a terrible person. It's just. You may or may not agree with his approach. You may or may not agree with how he runs his business and how he wants to do things.
- [169:33]
Francis Foster
But if you keep using the word fascist against him, you ratchet up the pressure. You ratchet up the tension. So people are looking at him going, well, this guy's a fascist. He's Hitler. Therefore, we need to do everything in our power to stop Hitler coming to power. Because if they did that in the 1930s, we wouldn't have World War II. Six million Jews wouldn't be exterminated.
- [169:55]
Joe Rogan
Whoopi Goldberg was just saying he's going to separate interracial couples.
- [169:59]
Constantine Kissin
What?
- [170:00]
Joe Rogan
See if you can find that. So you can find that.
- [170:02]
Constantine Kissin
Really?
- [170:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I couldn't even watch it. I saw the clip, and I was like, I can't even watch this. I'll lose my marbles. So crazy. But it's like, put you in camps. I've heard that, too. They're gonna put people in camps. They're gonna put gay people in camps, too. What? He was president for four years. None of these things happened. He was already president. This is part of the problem with saying this. If he wasn't president before and he was saying outrageous things like, what if this guy gets in power? But he was president, and he was president for four years.
- [170:29]
Constantine Kissin
And it's interesting from people who keep talking about hate, how much of that they're projecting onto him. Well, let's have a look at this. It's gonna sound crazy.
- [170:40]
Joe Rogan
We had some volume different way than.
- [170:44]
Constantine Kissin
To come after people because of their heritage, which they are born into. It is not a choice.
- [170:50]
Joe Rogan
You are who you are. Right. And here you gonna make all kind of fun.
- [170:53]
Constantine Kissin
People said, no more.
- [170:54]
Joe Rogan
We're tired of that. That's why people are saying right there.
- [170:58]
Constantine Kissin
You heard the women say, listen, what.
- [171:01]
Joe Rogan
We heard at that rapid should be.
- [171:05]
Constantine Kissin
Enough to shake folks awake because he's talking about you. All of you.
- [171:10]
Francis Foster
All of you. He's talking about you.
- [171:12]
Constantine Kissin
It's us.
- [171:13]
Joe Rogan
He's not going to be.
- [171:14]
Francis Foster
He's not going to, you know, say.
- [171:16]
Joe Rogan
Oh, you're with a white guy. I'm going to keep you from being deported.
- [171:20]
Constantine Kissin
No, he's going to deport you and.
- [171:21]
Joe Rogan
Put the white guy with someone else. The man is out there. What? Yeah. That's a large jump from what he's ever said. That's. That's a crazy thing to say.
- [171:33]
Constantine Kissin
That's why I thought you were very wise to bring the View up as the first thing you talked to him about. Right. Because you're just going, this is how it used to be. And I remember at the exact moment, nine years ago. I remember.
- [171:46]
Joe Rogan
Was that long ago, our friend Donald Trump, they all come and hug him and kiss him. Everybody loves you. They were talking about how they love him.
- [171:54]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, man.
- [171:55]
Joe Rogan
And the audience was cheering. He was getting cheered on the View. It is so wild to watch. We didn't play it for him because we didn't want to give anybody any excuse to give us a copyright strike. Because I wanted to play it. I wanted to start the show off with him listening to him being on the View and go, what is this like? Because, like, there's no one ever that's had the machine turn on them. Whether you agree with him or not agree, you must admit, like the Steele dossier, all the crazy stuff they put out on him, they've turned this machine on him in this way you've never seen before. And this is how they used to look at him just nine years ago.
- [172:29]
Constantine Kissin
You know, it was longer than that.
- [172:31]
Joe Rogan
It was 2011. Oh, was it when he was running for president? He wasn't running for president then. Oh, he's talking about running for president. Mentioned it then, but I don't. Well, he went on the View multiple times. How many times did he go on? He's been on by. I was. When was the last time he went on? That could have been his last appearance, I think. Well, that makes sense. Right? Because Barbara Walters. When did she stop being. Being on it? Yeah, she was on that appearance. And she looked pretty young back then. So 2011. So, okay, 13 years ago. Still nuts. Still nuts.
- [172:57]
Constantine Kissin
It's not that long ago.
- [172:58]
Joe Rogan
Not that long ago.
- [172:59]
Constantine Kissin
And for that complete about turn to go from the greatest guy who everyone wants to be the president, to the devil incarnate in 13 people for the. From the same people.
- [173:10]
Joe Rogan
Joy Behar hugging him. Whoopi Goldberg hugging him. All of them hugging him.
- [173:15]
Constantine Kissin
That's quite a transformation.
- [173:16]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's like they got their marching orders. He did. He was in the 2012 bows out of the 2012 US President. So that was when he was thinking about doing it in 2012. Oh, remember, remember at the White House Press correspondents dinner when Obama roasted him? I'm one thing that you'll never be president of the United States. And he was like, all right, motherfucker, you got the wrong dude. So there's, there's dudes out there that are like the boogeyman. They just will keep, keep coming.
- [173:46]
Constantine Kissin
Well, that's part of his appeal, man, is like, when he got shot and he's badass. You made this fight. And at this rally, there was this point when he was just. It really struck home for me why people like him. It was like he was talking about China and somebody had said, put out a report that if America had a war with China, America would lose. And he was like, first of all, why would you put out that report? And secondly, we would kick their ass. And you kind of go, if you're an American and you want your country to be great, you want it to be successful, left or right, whatever your position is, do you want to be on the side of the people who think America's future is behind it?
- [174:32]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [174:32]
Constantine Kissin
Or do you want to be on the side of the people who think, yeah, we're going to kick ass, we're going to succeed, we're going to make money, we're going to be successful.
- [174:38]
Joe Rogan
And there's also, also, like, looking at some of his foreign policy decisions and whether or not he was correct. One of them was the embargoes on Iran. That seemed to have freed up a whole lot of money when the Biden administration let those funds free. And then October 7th happens shortly thereafter. And when you know that they fund these various terrorist organizations, this is something Iran's done. This is not a big stretch. To think that one of the reasons why these things are happening was because people went a different way than Donald Trump did when he was in office. And a lot of people feel like that, like, logical, reasonable, left wing people.
- [175:26]
Constantine Kissin
Even yeah, because it's true. Yeah, it's true. If you give the Iranian a shit ton of money and also if they don't, fear repercussions.
- [175:34]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [175:35]
Constantine Kissin
You put those two things together. Is it a surprise?
- [175:38]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [175:39]
Francis Foster
Do you think part of the problem is we think everyone just thinks like us. So we're like, you know, what if we give more money to the ayatollah, you know what he's gonna do? Yeah. All right. You know, he's a bit nuts, but he's gonna put money into social programs. The average Iranian, he's going to be your happier health, wealthier.
- [175:57]
Joe Rogan
Do you ever see that interview where this woman was asking the Taliban whether or not they're gonna let women run for office? Now I just burst out laughing, laughing in her face. Like, what are you talking about? You don't understand this place at all.
- [176:10]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, it's called mirror image bias, actually. A lot of foreign intel guys, they get trained for years to not think that everyone is like them, because they're absolutely not the people in charge of around it. They want to wage jihad against. Against America and Israel.
- [176:25]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [176:25]
Constantine Kissin
What do jihadis do when they have money and opportunity?
- [176:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. They go to jihad.
- [176:30]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [176:31]
Joe Rogan
They start going.
- [176:32]
Constantine Kissin
It's not complicated.
- [176:33]
Joe Rogan
It's not complicated. And Trump was aware of that. Some of the decisions that he made were better decisions. That's objectively true.
- [176:45]
Constantine Kissin
And now Israel is having to deal with these terrorist groups that are armed and funded to the teeth.
- [176:50]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And then we're in this place where we're arguing about jokes. Weird, right?
- [176:56]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, it is weird because it's easier.
- [176:59]
Francis Foster
To argue about jokes than it is to talk about the Middle east and be actually honest about it and go, what. What Israel is facing is an existential fight for survival, and Israel is causing, you know, there are war crimes happening, whatever, but you go and you can't just let terrorist groups attack a country. You can't let Hezbollah from October 8th fire rockets into northern Israel perpetually. That can't be allowed to continue.
- [177:29]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [177:30]
Francis Foster
It's either going to escalate or you're going to need to deescalate. Because of one thing with jihadists is, you know, they're committed. You know, they believe what they. Yeah, they're. They're committed and they are going to. They believe in a global Islamic caliphate, and they want to wipe Israel off the map, and then they want to wipe all sovereign nations off the map, so they get a global Islamic caliphate, which is why so many moderate Islamic countries crack down on these people really hard because they understand the threat from these people.
- [178:00]
Joe Rogan
And then there's the reality that what Israel is doing is also horrific, right? You see the murdered children and women, and you see the videos of people getting blind, blown up with indiscriminate bombing of apartment buildings because someone underneath it is Hamas. That's fucking terrifying, too. So there's no win because no one can justify that. You watch that and you see how many innocent people died. This is fucking insane. And then there's the argument that, well, but Hamas is using them as human shields. There's no other way to do this than to just bomb where, you know civilians are going to be, because bad guys are there. Also. This is the crazy thing about war, because in the past, I think this is a strategy that would have been employed by almost any powerful nation trying to wipe out an enemy. But we don't, like, look, what do we do in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? We just indiscriminately killed everybody, just dropped a nuclear bomb on an entire city.
- [178:59]
Constantine Kissin
But the question is, what should Israel do? And that's a good question.
- [179:02]
Joe Rogan
That's a real good question.
- [179:02]
Constantine Kissin
And this is the problem because I take your. But the issue is that Hamas have openly stated on numerous occasions that they want to maximize civilian casualties. They're doing it deliberately. So the question is, and we've had pro Palestine guests on the show, we've had pro Israel guests on the show, and we've asked them, basically trying to get to the bottom of this, like, how do you do this? I get that what's happening is terrible. It is terrible. No one would dispute that. No one who has a conscience or a heart would look at what's happening in Gaza and think that's fucking nobody. But at the same time, the question ultimately is after October 7th, what is Israel supposed to do? What are you supposed to do when your country's been attacked from several sides by different terrorist groups, all funded by Iran and sponsored in other ways, and they give them weapons, what are you supposed to do? Now? You say, well, they're supposed to. Isn't there another way? I'm asking that question. I haven't heard a persuasive answer. What they're supposed to do instead.
- [179:59]
Joe Rogan
The problem is when you have have very religious, ideologically convinced people that their thing is also about if you die, you go to heaven.
- [180:12]
Constantine Kissin
Yes.
- [180:12]
Joe Rogan
And you're a martyr. And that's a worthy goal. There's not another religion that espouses that, another religion that enforces that idea in people, that scares the out of people that they're okay with people dying.
- [180:29]
Constantine Kissin
I would love for somebody to have an answer to this, but I just tell you, like, as you know, I have relatives in Ukraine. What did they do when the war started? They turned every fucking basement into a bunker to protect civilians. That is not what Hamas are doing. They have these tunnels. They don't let civilians in there. That's where the terrorists hang out. Right. So what do you do? What is Israel supposed to do?
- [180:50]
Joe Rogan
Didn't Eric Prince have some sort of an idea to flush out the tunnel?
- [180:53]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, it's not a bad idea.
- [180:55]
Joe Rogan
Why didn't they implement that?
- [180:56]
Constantine Kissin
I have no idea. I have no idea.
- [180:58]
Joe Rogan
Because that would have kind of killed everybody, wouldn't it? If we really could do that.
- [181:02]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. Probably kill hostages, too.
- [181:04]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [181:05]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. But they're probably already dead. Or if not, they want to be dead.
- [181:08]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [181:09]
Joe Rogan
Me, imagine an October 7th hostage is.
- [181:12]
Constantine Kissin
Still alive for a year, man. And this is why I'm asking the question, because I just think, what would the UK do? What would America if you had a rampaging terrorist attack across the border and missiles from the north?
- [181:24]
Joe Rogan
It's a very good question. I think it's also from the perspective of people that live in Israel versus the perspective of people that live in America. We haven't been invaded. And the people in Israel who have mandatory military service and they're constantly on threat. I got a buddy of mine who's my kickboxing coach, Shuki, and he's from Israel, and he was always, like, playing the bongo drums. I went to his house for dinner. Everybody's dancing and singing. I was like, why are you guys so happy? Like, everybody's so, like, joyful. He goes, man, he goes, when you live in Israel, any day could be your last. So it's like, just party, have a good time. And they had this idea, and I think if you're an American and you don't feel that threat, it just feels abstract. You're not going to understand the mentality of someone who lives in a place that's surrounded by people who hate them.
- [182:08]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah. And we know. We had Nick Freitas. Do you know Nick Freitas?
- [182:11]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [182:11]
Constantine Kissin
He's a Green Beret. Former Green Beret. He has a YouTube channel, I think, as well. And we asked him about this. You know, you were. You. You went. He served in Iraq, I think, two tours. And he talked about this. We've got this interview coming out, and it's like, there is no. There is no way to deal with terrorists who are hiding behind civilians rather than by going in and dealing with it. There's no other way. I wish there was. I'm genuinely asking the question, what is the other way?
- [182:36]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [182:37]
Constantine Kissin
And if it is, Israel should use it. But if there isn't, what are they supposed to do?
- [182:43]
Joe Rogan
It's also a crazy subject in America. Right? Because there's people on the left that do not want to support Israel and they think that Palestine is, you know, that Palestine should be free. And they'll say from the river to the sea. And they chant it out and they don't exactly even know what they're saying, which means like an annihilation of Israel from the river to sea. That's literally what that means. But then they. They're now this sort of. There's like this anti Semitic thing that's on the left which didn't exist before. It's just like the anti Israel, anti Semitic thing that you never heard before from the left.
- [183:20]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [183:20]
Joe Rogan
Like the left was always like super pro Israel.
- [183:22]
Constantine Kissin
But it makes sense, doesn't it? Because if you've had a decade of wokeness, the point of wokeness is the people who are successful, successful, the people who have the upper hand, they're the bad guys.
- [183:34]
Joe Rogan
Right? Always colonizers.
- [183:36]
Constantine Kissin
Right. So Israel is the bad guy by default.
- [183:38]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [183:38]
Constantine Kissin
And by the way, that doesn't mean that, you know, the occupation situation in Gaza hasn't. Has been perfect. Nobody would argue that. Right? But just because a country is succeeding in its military campaign doesn't mean they're the bad guys.
- [183:51]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [183:52]
Constantine Kissin
The problem with Jews, though, is they're too successful. Successful. The Jews are too successful. God damn it. Right? That's the problem with Jews. They're too successful. This tiny minority of people who've been oppressed throughout history and yet they're still succeeding. They're making money, they're successful. The country they've built is more powerful than all its neighbors. It's not a good look. If you're woke, how are these fuckers? That's the argument. So what's the antisemitism on the left that you're talking about? It's the logical conclusion of wokeness, which is why I could never understand why Jews went along with wokeness. Massively, Massively. Like Jews vote like 60, 70, 75% for the Democrat party in this country. That was before October 7th. I think that's talking to a lot of people. We just had Bill Ackman on the show. That's changed people's minds quite a bit. I don't. I'M not saying he was worked before that, but you know what I mean.
- [184:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [184:53]
Francis Foster
And it's also as well, you talk about the left, but the left in the UK has always had a problem with anti Semitism, Joe.
- [184:59]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [184:59]
Francis Foster
Yes. There's always been a faction of the left that has looked at Jews and seen financiers, business people, rich people, they control the, you know, the means of production. They're the ones keeping the ordinary man on the street down. We need to get rid of these financiers, the oligarchy, oligarchs, the bankers, and then we'll be able to liberate people. And there's. That's all. There's always been that faction on the UK left that that's what we need to do. And when Jeremy Corbyn was in power, wasn't in power. Was leader of the Labour Party.
- [185:33]
Constantine Kissin
I thought I missed a meeting.
- [185:37]
Francis Foster
There was Jewish MPs, Labour MPs, who literally walked out of the party because they were saying that he was not tackling and dealing with antisemitism and that this was allowed to run rampant within the Labour Party.
- [185:50]
Joe Rogan
Interesting.
- [185:50]
Constantine Kissin
You know, Thomas Sowell was once asked, what do Jews need to do to stop anti Semitism? And he paused for a second and went, fail.
- [185:59]
Joe Rogan
That guy's so wise.
- [186:00]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, man, he's incredible.
- [186:02]
Joe Rogan
Fascinating person. And what kind of intellectual courage to step out on those limbs that he does and say these logical things that are, again, the. It's, you know, Heretic.
- [186:12]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [186:13]
Constantine Kissin
I'm such admirer. Such a great admirer of his, so. Such an interesting writer. He's got so many counterintuitive ideas.
- [186:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [186:20]
Constantine Kissin
Super informative.
- [186:21]
Joe Rogan
He's great in interviews too.
- [186:22]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [186:23]
Joe Rogan
What if he still doesn't?
- [186:24]
Constantine Kissin
He's very. He. I think he's very old now.
- [186:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [186:26]
Constantine Kissin
So he does. I think he. We tried to get him when. We nearly had a phone interview with him, but it didn't quite happen. But I'd still love to make that happen.
- [186:32]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [186:32]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. But he's getting old, unfortunately.
- [186:34]
Joe Rogan
I've seen some of the Noam Chomsky interviews now. You're like, yo, stop doing those.
- [186:41]
Francis Foster
I mean, when he came out, I mean, he was hard line on the vaccine.
- [186:44]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Like, have you done any research at all? He was. Yeah. Hard. But I think that's an old person thing.
- [186:49]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [186:50]
Joe Rogan
I think old people get really scared of diseases.
- [186:52]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [186:52]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And they've got every right to be scared of diseases because they're far more vulnerable to them.
- [186:56]
Joe Rogan
Exactly. So they're thinking of something that can Kill you. Or as a young people thinking, oh, it's going to be inconvenient.
- [187:01]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, much better than either of us. Every great champion has to retire at some point, right?
- [187:07]
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yeah. You have to. Your. Your shit doesn't work right anymore, including your brain. It's going to come a point in time where you're. You're not thinking well, you're not very logical and you're not objective.
- [187:17]
Francis Foster
But the thing that made you a champion is the thing that's going to make you not want to retire.
- [187:21]
Joe Rogan
Yep. That's what fighters for sure. That's what they. That's why they fight way past their prime. And it gets really sad.
- [187:27]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [187:27]
Joe Rogan
Never want to let it go.
- [187:28]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah.
- [187:29]
Francis Foster
Because why would you. Why would you want to let it go?
- [187:31]
Joe Rogan
Right. Especially if that's what you do. Imagine if what you do relies on. On a very brief window of, like, power like that you have physically where your hormones are firing. You know, you don't have that much time.
- [187:43]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [187:43]
Joe Rogan
And then when it slips away, you still feel like you're you, but you just. You can't move.
- [187:48]
Francis Foster
I remember when watching Tyson Fury, I can't remember who he fought. He fought in London, and Constant and I were talking about it because we were going, oh, is he going to retire? He said he's going to retire. And then he entered the stadium on a gold throne carried by people. I'm like, bro, that he ain't going to fucking retire anytime soon.
- [188:07]
Joe Rogan
He's fighting Usyk again. Oh, man, that's a tough fight.
- [188:10]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah.
- [188:11]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [188:11]
Joe Rogan
That Usyk guy is talented. He's so talented. He's so small for a heavyweight, too. He just. He's nonstop movement and his footwork and everything. It's so different than anybody else. Joshua didn't know what to do with him. He's like, where is this guy going to be when I'm throwing punches? He was moving all over the place.
- [188:30]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [188:30]
Joe Rogan
It's so different.
- [188:32]
Francis Foster
It's so different. I remember when I was watching the Joshua Usyk fight, it made me realize the importance of technique, because Joshua is a real physical specimen and has great technique, too. Yeah. But he doesn't have that elite level of technique that Usyk had. And you could see the combinations, the way he was throwing punches. He just didn't have an answer to it because he's never been exposed to that level of technique.
- [188:54]
Joe Rogan
Well, you know what it is? He's a heavyweight, and the heavyweights were never really that good in terms of that kind of technique. It's like you need it at like middleweight and light heavyweight because everyone's super talented and technical, Technical. When you get up to the heavyweight division, guys tend. It tends to be like a lower bar, you know. And so when you have an elite athlete like Joshua, who's like fast and knockout power, he can excel without having the kind of technique that a guy like Lomachenko and Usyk were chained by the same guy. They were both trained by Lomachenko's father. So they both have extreme technique. And then you have bival and bitter beef that just fought, same thing. Both like super Soviet style boxing. And you go, whoa. Like this is technique, like really, really high level technique. But it's rare that someone with that kind of technique gets into the heavyweight division.
- [189:45]
Francis Foster
And that's why Fury is just a magnificent fighter, because Fury is from a gypsy background. And those boys are taught to fight at the age of 3, 4 years old. And it's in their culture, they all fight, they all trained as boxers. And telling you, as someone who has broken up fights with gypsy kids, when I used to teach them, they are taught never to back down. You never back down. You always go for it until the very end. I remember when I was watching the Fury, the Wilder fight, and I remember someone saying to me, like, he's knocked down, he ain't getting up. I'm like, mate, trust me, he's gonna get up. He's gonna get up. Yeah. And then. But that's why Fury's a force of nature. It's that technique he has which has been instilled in him from basically the moment he could walk.
- [190:30]
Joe Rogan
Technique and huge. And if you watch the Usyk fight, he was touching Usyk up in the beginning of the fight. Yeah, I mean, that reach and that jab, the accuracy that he has, he was doing really well in that fight until he started to slow down a little bit and Usyk wind up just catching him. Yeah, bro.
- [190:46]
Constantine Kissin
It's an exciting moment in UFC as well. The one that would just happen. Chimaev me, bro, he's terrifying.
- [190:52]
Joe Rogan
He's. He does it to everybody. Everybody he gets a hold of, he just. Rag dolls, even like really elite wrestlers. It's very extraordinary. His talent, talent is undeniable. And Robert Whitaker, like seeing him breaking Robert Whitaker's jaw just by squeezing across his face. Apparently Robert Whitaker had a broken jaw when he was a child and he had work done, but it's always been vulnerable. His front teeth had been pushed in before in the drekist duplessis Fight. He had a problem with it as well, apparently. But this was different because this was like Chimaev got the blade of his forearm across the jaw and it was like just crushing those teeth and it goes into his mouth. You saw the photo.
- [191:29]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, yeah, man. Do you think if that doesn't happen, Whitaker stands up?
- [191:35]
Joe Rogan
Who knows? I mean, Chimaevs was smothering him. Whitaker looked exhausted.
- [191:39]
Constantine Kissin
It was very early in the fight too.
- [191:41]
Joe Rogan
Yep. First round. I mean, it's just the amount of technique that Khamzat has and the intensity of his attack is unlike anybody else. He's so talented. He's so good at grappling and his standup is fucking dangerous too. And I think he's way better at 185. I really do. I think at 170 was killing himself to make that weight. And now they see him at 185. I think he has more energy. He's just. And he's more than big enough for those guys. He's huge. He's a big guy. He's good, man. He's really good. But Ilia to Poria, that was the most shocking. It says that Robert only landed two strikes. Wow, that's crazy. I don't even know what he hit him with. Yeah, might have hit him with a legend leg kick. I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember Khamzat shooting two leg kicks. Yeah, there it is. Two leg kicks. So Hamza just shot in on him and just started beating the out of him. It was so relentless and overwhelming. And when Robert got up once, Khamzat dove on him again and had him down again a second. So it's demoralizing.
- [192:41]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [192:41]
Constantine Kissin
Reminded me of Khabib as well, where like you get up, you get straight back down and then you just run out of energy. Right.
- [192:46]
Joe Rogan
Maybe even more intense because maybe even more dominant, you know, like to do that to Whitaker like that a guy who's a world champion. Like even the Conor fight, it took a while before he overwhelmed him, you know, it took a while before he was just beating Conor's ass. Like the beginning of the fight is more competitive. Like this was just a overwhelming victory. He just, Hamza just charged in, dove in, got him down and mauled him. Mauled him until he broke his face.
- [193:17]
Constantine Kissin
Do you think it's different with Duplessis because he can wrestle?
- [193:20]
Joe Rogan
He's wrestle. He's got very good jiu jitsu. He hits hard and he's a big durable dude. But I don't know if he's going to be able to wrestle with that guy. Like, I don't know, man. The hamzat skill is so high level, it makes me wonder. It's some guys, like, you see it in jiu jitsu, there's some guys that look really good until they fight somebody who's really, really good and then they get manhandled. You know, it's like everybody looks good until they face Gordon Ryan. Like, Gordon Ryan can do that to anybody. Like, is Khamzat at that level? Well, it kind of appears that he is. It appears that he's in terms of like the grappling that he possesses seems magnitudes greater than anybody else in his division.
- [193:59]
Francis Foster
But it also, it's that skill thing that we talk about. When you, you can have athleticism, you can have strength, but when you come up against someone who is skill is far superior to yours avenue, eventually you're going to burn out because there's only a fine amount, a finite amount of strength and power that you have got. And eventually if you're fighting somebody who can match you physically but also has the skill on top of it, I mean, you're kind of done really, unless you get lucky with a punch, I.
- [194:25]
Constantine Kissin
Guess counterargument might be. And you'll correct me, Joe Gilbert burns fight. I mean, he won, but he was close.
- [194:33]
Joe Rogan
It was very close. I think it's at 170. I don't think he's the same guy at 170. I also think Gilbert is tough as fuck. And at that point in time, Gilbert had, he challenged Usman for the title and lost, but then came back and was one of the best 170 pounders in the world. It was a big step up in competition that I don't think Khamzat had faced before. And Gilbert is a world champion in jiu jitsu. He's a very, very, very good grappler. So there's a difference there. When you get Gilbert to the ground, it's not that simple. Like you're fighting off arm bars and triangles and guillotines and he's back up his feet. There was a lot of wild scrambles. It was just, you know, Gilbert's a little older now, but back then he was like really in his prime or close to it, and he's just that good. That's why that fight was so close. Is just Gilbert, especially in that fight, he was that good. I mean, it was a war. He dropped Chimaev, he cracked him with a right hand. But Chamayev even when he got dropped, he dove in and took him down. Like, he's good, man, he's good. What he did to Whitaker was just. Nobody thought that was going to happen. That was crazy.
- [195:34]
Constantine Kissin
That was scary. Yeah, that was scary.
- [195:36]
Joe Rogan
And then what Ilia did to Max is even scarier too.
- [195:38]
Francis Foster
Oh, wow. Cuz, I, I thought I, I saw Max as being totally under, in control of that entire fight. I was like, he's got the tactic tactically, he's got him. He's going to win this. And then he would have said that.
- [195:50]
Joe Rogan
I wouldn't have said that. It said there's always danger with Torio, he's so dangerous. When he hits you, it's so, it's different than anybody, especially with his hands, he's, his boxing is so high level and there's shots that he was landing that would thud and you could see it in Max's face. He caught him with a bunch of good shots before that, but Max was landing a lot of stuff too. But he was forced into these exchanges, and when you're forced into these exchanges, Ilya has superior technique. His punches come straight down the pipe. His hooks are perfect, his distance management is perfect. He's super aggressive, and the consequences to get him hit by him are so grave. That left hook he caught Max with, oh my God. Just spun his head around.
- [196:33]
Francis Foster
And you, you rarely see, I mean, in, in the ufc, you, you see obviously people who are, you know, multi disciplined, but it's rare that you see someone who's so pure with the way they hit. I was watching him going, this guy looks like a boxer, the way that.
- [196:46]
Joe Rogan
He hits, but he's that way with everything. He's that way with his grappling, he's out with his submissions. He's just really, really good. And he's the new guard. Right. Like every generation comes up with a new guy who's a, like a new high water mark of technique. Yeah, that's where Ilia is.
- [197:03]
Constantine Kissin
So who's going to challenge him now, do you think?
- [197:05]
Joe Rogan
Volanovski? Yeah, they're going to have a rematch. I think Volkanovski taking that fight three months after getting head kicked into a, you know, a ko, that's kind of crazy to do. Three or four months later, he's fighting Ilia Toporia, the most dangerous puncher he's ever faced. I think that was crazy and I think now he's had a long time to recover, but it's always going to be in his head that, that guy just knocked me the Fuck out. You know, and look, that's the kind of thing that drives a guy like Volkanovski because he's such a warrior. Like he doesn't shy away from the most difficult challenges because if he did, he could have taken some fights with some up and coming contenders. He could have said there's probably someone who wants to challenge him. There's some guy he thinks he could definitely beat. Let me just get this fight under my belt and then, you know. But he's no, he wants to go right back in there and fight for the title again.
- [197:51]
Constantine Kissin
And am I right in thinking there it's power versus speed because Volkanovski is so fast, so quick.
- [197:58]
Joe Rogan
Ilia is fast too, man. Yeah, there's no difference in speed.
- [198:02]
Constantine Kissin
Really?
- [198:02]
Joe Rogan
No, I don't think so.
- [198:03]
Constantine Kissin
Oh, wow.
- [198:03]
Joe Rogan
I don't think there's, there's a little bit of difference. When you're loading up, you're not going to hit as fast. You know, if you're just trying to like touch someone, you could touch them, must fast, faster. But Ily is fast as. He's not slow at all. There's no, he doesn't have any disadvantages, he doesn't have any weaknesses, man. That's the thing. That's why I say he's the new high water mark. There's people that are thinking maybe he's the best pound for pound fighter alive. Like, there's a lot of discussion about that online. It's a little premature, especially when Jon Jones is still out there and there's other elite guys that are still out there, but Islam Makachev is another one, you know, like it's a real argument that he's the best pound for pound guy alive, but it's fucking close. Ilia, he might be the best.
- [198:43]
Francis Foster
And if you think about Volkanovski, a fire is never the same after they've been knocked out.
- [198:47]
Joe Rogan
Particularly a blow like twice in a couple of months time, in four or four months time.
- [198:52]
Francis Foster
So there's already an injury there, there's already a propensity to get knocked out, there's a weakness. And then you're going up against a fighter with that power, you know, or you think all he's going to need to do is just connect and he may be sparkling again, who knows?
- [199:06]
Joe Rogan
I mean, I don't know what kind of strategy Volkanovski will employ. I don't know if they'll try to do something different. City kickboxing, the place that he trains at, it's very, very, very high level. And those guys always have excellent game plans. So maybe there's something they saw that Volkanovski couldn't capitalize on because he was still dealing with the effects of the KO loss to Makhachev, which, you know, you get. KO'd like that. A bad one. That was a high kick, shin to the head. Those stay with you for a long time. You might not be the same person. So he might have fought still under the effects of that ko. So now he gets knocked out again by Ilya. Now he's had a long time to rest, and that's what you really need. If you've been knocked out like that, you need treatments. There's, like, concussion protocols. There's a bunch of different things that people can do to help their brain health. But like when Manny Pacquiao got knocked out by Juan Manuel Marquez, Freddie Roach didn't let him fight for a year. So now you're not doing anything for one year. Not nothing. I don't want you to do anything. You can train. That's it. Work out, hit the bag. You're not. No fights for years.
- [200:07]
Constantine Kissin
I know you've been. Sorry, go ahead.
- [200:08]
Francis Foster
I was just gonna say it's a really interesting moment because UFC is very much in the ascendancy when compared to boxing.
- [200:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [200:15]
Francis Foster
But you've looked at all this Saudi money that is being pumped into boxing now. And, you know, because previously, you know, the thing that we're in boxing, as we all know, is promoters not. And, you know, teams not wanting to put their great fighter against their other great fighter because they want to protect their asset.
- [200:32]
Joe Rogan
Yep.
- [200:32]
Francis Foster
I'm thinking now you look at kind of the Saudis, they're just going to flood. They're flooding it with money.
- [200:37]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- [200:37]
Francis Foster
So are we actually going to see interesting fights again? Because at the moment, you're starting to see it happen more and more in the heavyweight division.
- [200:45]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you're going to see it. The Saudis are doing a great service in that regard, like giving people fights they want to see, because there's a lot of interest that can be made. If you can get Benavidez versus Canelo, for instance. Like, that is the fight that everybody wants to see at 168. That's a fascinating fight. Benavidez at 168 is a monster, and Canelo is the king. So it's like, that would be an amazing fight. If they could get them to do that, that would be awesome. They might fight at 175, who knows? But if they can do that, if the Saudis can come up with enough money. And the other one is Terence Crawford. Terrence Crawford versus Canelo. That's fucking interesting. That's really interesting. If they can pay them enough money to get them to do it.
- [201:24]
Francis Foster
Because if they can pay enough money, then what you have is a real competitor to the ufc. Because at the moment, I. And I like watching ufc, but I'm a boxing guy. I love it. That's how I was raised. But content. We always have an argument about it, but it's undeniable that UFC is more entertaining because they're the fights that you want to see.
- [201:43]
Constantine Kissin
But it's not just that. This is what I was going to ask you, Jay. It's not just about the headline fight. The difference between the UFC and box boxing is if you're watching ufc, you're gonna see five great fights.
- [201:53]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [201:54]
Constantine Kissin
Minimum.
- [201:55]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [201:55]
Constantine Kissin
On a card.
- [201:56]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [201:57]
Constantine Kissin
With boxing, no one watches the undercard.
- [201:59]
Joe Rogan
Well, the Saudi's doing a much better job of that. Riyadh season's done a fantastic job of putting compelling undercard fights, and that is also because they're throwing that money around, you know, like the Bivol. But it better be a fight. That was the Riyadh season. Put that on. That was a fight that a lot of people didn't know if it was ever going to happen, because both guys are undefeated. Both guys are like world champions. Like, you can make a lot of money just beating up other guys. You don't have to lose your O. You don't have to have these two guys go to war like this.
- [202:28]
Francis Foster
And all of a sudden, it's made boxing interesting.
- [202:31]
Joe Rogan
Yep.
- [202:31]
Francis Foster
Because lots of people are talking about sports watching, and obviously, that's a different conversation. But finally, now I'm seeing fights, and I'm like, I want to watch this fight.
- [202:39]
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yes, it is. It's fun. It's a fun time to be a sports. Sports fan. You know, it's. I mean, probably like, one of the greatest moments ever for combat sports.
- [202:50]
Constantine Kissin
Like, right now feels like it has.
- [202:51]
Joe Rogan
To be with the ufc, because the UFC has kind of redefined what combat sports are, and it's the greatest time ever for the ufc. And then at the same time, boxing is still thriving.
- [203:00]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And it. And it's. It's becoming exciting because you're seeing great fights, and it. For people like us who grow up in, like, the. And saw the great fighters of the 80s and the 90s, all of a sudden we see this happening again, and we're just like, ah. Actually, I remember why I fell in love with this sport.
- [203:17]
Joe Rogan
How about Anthony Joshua and Dubois? Dubois coming into his own, man. That's what that is. He's only, like, 27, right?
- [203:25]
Francis Foster
Yep.
- [203:25]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's. He's coming into that. Guy's fucking scary. He's dangerous.
- [203:30]
Francis Foster
And, you know, the interesting thing was, is that in at least the press in the uk, they didn't give him a hope. Everybody was talking about, you know, like, when Joshua gets Dubois out of the way, then we can move on to the next. Next fight. And this is a fight that we want to see.
- [203:43]
Joe Rogan
It seems like Joshua believed that going into that fight. Seems like he believed that he was just going to dominate him.
- [203:49]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And he just got ruthlessly exposed. The power of Dubois with. I remember I bought into it. I was like, okay, so I'll watch it. But, you know, this is going to be a stepping stone match. It wasn't a stepping stone.
- [204:01]
Joe Rogan
Aggression, too, man. He was so aggressive. He was just in the pocket constantly, just forcing Joshua to go to war. It was wild.
- [204:09]
Francis Foster
Yeah. And you. It rapidly became apparent that Joshua couldn't match him. He just couldn't go to war with him. And at the end, this was. This showed what the fight was like. Everybody was like, look, Joe to Joshua, I think you're done. And nobody.
- [204:23]
Joe Rogan
Right after he knocks out Francis and Gano, and it's like everyone's like, you're back.
- [204:26]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [204:27]
Joe Rogan
You know, I mean, he flattened Francis and Gano, and everybody was like, oh, Joshua's back. Look how good he looked.
- [204:32]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [204:33]
Joe Rogan
Ruthless game, man.
- [204:35]
Constantine Kissin
You mentioned in Garner. I'm so gutted. I just heard Dana White say that that fight with Jon Jones is never going to happen. It's so. I'm so gutted about that, man.
- [204:42]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I'm going, stay out of that one. I love Francis. I love Dana. I don't get it. I don't know what happened between those two. They apparently have some sort of a personal thing with each other. Dana says he's not a good guy. Everything I've ever. Every interaction I've ever had with him, he's a great guy. I really love talking to him. I've had him on the podcast a couple of times. His story about being a child working in a sand mine. Crazy. His story about making his way from Cameroon all the way to the coast and then getting sent back to the Sahara desert, like, six times. It's a crazy story, you know, being homeless in France and walking into a gym and all of a sudden becoming the UFC heavyweight champ of the world. It's nuts. It's a crazy state. It's a literal story out of a movie, you know. I don't know what their beef is.
- [205:34]
Constantine Kissin
No, I don't want to get involved in any beef. I just saying that's a great fucking Jones.
- [205:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I wish he fought Jon Jones. But I'm interested in Jon Jones versus Stipe. Yeah, I'm very. Especially if Stipe is healthy. I'm very interested in that.
- [205:46]
Constantine Kissin
Can I in no way wish to be disrespectful, but just a layman perspective. A lot of people I have heard saying Stipe is too old now.
- [205:55]
Joe Rogan
We don't know. He hasn't fought since he got knocked out by Francis. And Francis, Francis looked unbelievable in that fight. He was patient and calculated and his power is just so extraordinary that if he could just catches you a couple of times, you're. I mean, Francis hits so hard. And so him knocking out Stipe was not as much as like, Stipe doesn't have it anymore. Was that. Francis is that good, that big, that scary? A natural 265 pound knockout machine.
- [206:23]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah. But Jon Jones, man, come on.
- [206:25]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, Jon Jones. Jones is the highest fight IQ of all time next to Mighty Mouse. Like, fuck, man, he's. He finds a way to win, you know, and he's an unbelievable grappler. That's why that would be such a good fight. His super high fight iq, use of distance better than anybody. And then this ability to know how to win and can he win versus that guy? Because if you get clipped once, just once, what he did to Cain Velasquez just inside caught him with an uppercut, you see just lights go out. Like Kane can take a shot. Man, that guy's. His power is different. It's just extraordinary.
- [207:02]
Francis Foster
But you. I think you hit the nail on the head. He knows how to win. And you see it with all great athletes and teams that even if they're not doing well, even they're not fighting well, if they're playing well, they have that extra gear that they can go into. And then suddenly you go, how did he do that? How did they do that? They were on the ropes.
- [207:20]
Joe Rogan
Makes people different and make. I mean. And it probably drives you crazy. You know, they say Michael Jordan was out of his mind when he was at his best. It's. It's. Of course, it's just.
- [207:30]
Constantine Kissin
But you know, John's has looked, you know, I wouldn't say beatable, but there are a couple of guys that pushed him two or three.
- [207:36]
Joe Rogan
It's mostly he was playing with his food. It's mostly John was bored. He was so dominant that he would not train, you know, and he fought Alexander Gustafson. They said he barely trained at all and still beat him in the stretch. And then the rematch wanted to prove a point, so trained really hard and beat the out of Gustafson. You know, with John, it's a lot of it is he's so much better than everybody else. Like when he's really threatened, like with Cormier, then you see how good he really is. Like when he knocked out Cormier with that head kick. And that's when you see how good he is when he's. When he's pushed.
- [208:06]
Francis Foster
Yeah.
- [208:07]
Joe Rogan
When you see Jon Jones with a real challenge in front of him. And hopefully that's the Jon Jones we'll see with Stipe.
- [208:13]
Constantine Kissin
Yeah, let's hope steep pushes them.
- [208:15]
Joe Rogan
Listen, gentlemen, it's always a pleasure. We just did like forever 5:00 here. Long ass podcast. But always pleasure talking to you guys, man. Always a lot of fun. Appreciate you.
- [208:25]
Constantine Kissin
Appreciate you. Thank you.
- [208:26]
Joe Rogan
Tell everybody how to see your show.
- [208:29]
Constantine Kissin
We're on YouTube. Trigonometry. We both have a substack now as well, so check those out too.
- [208:34]
Joe Rogan
Look at you. Fancy journal. Fancy journalists. All right. Thank you. Appreciate it. Bye, buddy.