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- [00:02]
A
Joe Rogan Podcast.
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B
Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
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A
Train my day. Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. All right, we're rolling. What's happening? Nice to meet you.
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B
Oh, hey, man. So it's awesome to be here, man. Really? Yeah. Like, I gotta say hi to my. My son is just so thrilled. He's like, you know, he's 15 and he literally freaked out. Like, oh, my God. At all. And all of his friends are gonna Definitely. Yeah.
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A
What's his name?
- [00:28]
B
Carl with a K. And I met a Carl in the lobby, but it's a C. But that's not a human.
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A
A non human Carl. Yeah. Well, what's up, human Carl? So, first of all, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits when you're a senator?
- [00:45]
B
Yeah, no, it's. I'm sorry, what does that say?
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A
I said, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits as a senator?
- [00:55]
B
Oh, okay. Yeah, No, I. Well, I know it might. It seems strange, but it's like. I mean, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a bigger guy, and I don't really can't afford custom anyway. And I hate. I'm claustrophobic and I hate them being in that kind of shit. And I've always dressed like. Like shit. And, you know. And I know. And then that whole thing kind of got away of us. People assumed that there was a dress code issue there. And I'm like, no, I wasn't behind that. Behind that. But of course, everybody pointed at the. At the dude that dresses like a slob. And then the whole. The whole nation just had like, a meltdown, like, oh, my God, the Senate's on fire because I dress like a slob. But my life is just much better in D.C. that unless that I'm going to be on the floor, that I'm not going to be, you're never going to see me in a suit. And I think that's a more authentic kind of way that I live. And I don't judge anybody on how they dress or those things. I just dress this way. And there's also practical issues as well, too. Like, I have chopstick legs and I have no ass, and I can't keep pants and hoodies and hoodies. It's like, I don't have to iron that shit, you know? So it's just, like, easy. It's comfort. And it's like, I just feel like that's. I mean, and if somebody Judged me. And people have said that, but it's like, I'd rather have somebody know. And I promise you, a lot of people and dudes, especially in Western Pennsylvania, love to wear suits all year. I mean, excuse me, shorts all year and dress like that. But to me, it's about comfort and practical.
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A
Well, I mean, it makes sense. The whole dress code thing of wearing suits and you're more serious because you have certain clothing on. It seems pretty silly.
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B
Sorry, what's that?
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A
So let's tell everybody what's going on with your iPad. So, because you had a stroke, you have difficulty. Do you have difficulty hearing or.
- [02:59]
B
Well, no, I can hear just. I can hear just perfectly right now. But there's just the one. Kind of a lingering issue. There's a lingering issue, and sometimes I lose just a couple steps on time, and then now after that, that's the only thing. And thankfully, the stroke never touch my intellect. Thanks. But the stroke nearly killed me. And again, I don't. But I use captioning in situations just like this in interviews. So that's why I can really make sure exactly what's being said, and then I can able just participate. If somebody wears the glasses, it doesn't mean that they're illiterate. It just means they just. That's a tool that allows them to participate or drive or those things, and it's that same thing. And a lot of people across America use captioning to watch movies and tv, and that's really no different than that.
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A
So it doesn't affect your intellect, but it does affect your hearing. Is that what's going on?
- [03:56]
B
No, I can hear and I can listen to music. The difference with music, for example, is that as long as there's muscle memory, I can remember all those kinds of music things. But it seems unlikely at this point that there's not going to be any kind of new favorites emerging like that.
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A
Because essentially, you can listen to the same old music forever.
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B
Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, all of the. All the classics, like, you know, Metallica, Motorhead, Motorhead, the Cult. All those kinds of things. Like, I haven't lost any of, you know, the Def Lep and those things. Well, and I saw the record of Whitesnake, but all those things. Yeah, no, I mean. I mean, I think we're both in the 50s, right? And we grew up with the crew and all those kinds of things. So some. Some people might judge me based on my taste on music, but, I mean, that's kind of where it's at.
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A
Listen, people are going to judge you no matter what. You're a big, giant guy who wears hoodies, and you're a senator no matter what. They're going to judge you. Who cares? But I'm just trying to understand what is going on with the captioning, because you can hear, but. So there's some sort of a disconnect between hearing and understanding. Like, what is it?
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B
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily disconnect. It's just about being precise on that just to make sure that. So if, you know, for an interview, just to make sure of those things. So it's really just about captioning, really. It's just a tool. No difference. I mean, for this. This is like my eyes in the sense for glasses that just.
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A
Right, I understand. So it just gives you a little bit more precision in what you're saying.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And understanding. What was it like running for senator Right. After recovering from a stroke? That had to be a nightmare.
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B
Yeah, I don't recommend that. I don't recommend that.
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A
Because you seem to have recovered quite a bit since then.
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B
Oh, yeah, no.
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A
But during that time, you were really struggling.
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B
Oh, sure, absolutely. Like, it was. It was a rough conversation after that, they brought me into the hospital, and then I went under, and then I woke up and they said. They said, hey, we got it. We got it. We got the clot. The clot that essentially just killed me. And I'm like, oh, that's good. And then just kind of went back under. And at that point, I had no idea where we were at on those things. And then I had. The next morning, I woke up, and then a doctor came on, and he had kind of a grim, kind of a look on his face and things. And my dad was there sitting next to me at the bed, and I was like, well, hey, doc, what do you think? What do you like? And he's like, well, you know, your heart is functioning at an incredibly low kinds of percentage. And I'm like, well, what do you think? And he was like, well, you know, I mean, there's some issues. And I'm like, well, are we talking?
- [07:22]
A
This episode is brought to you by paramount network. The epic return of yellowstone. America's number one show is on paramount network Network. What will become of the Dutton family? Can they save the Yellowstone ranch? How far will Beth and rip go to protect the family legacy? Generations of blood have led to this, and nothing will prepare you for it. The epic return of yellowstone. Sundays at 8. 7 Central only on paramount Network. This episode is brought to you by Paramount network. The epic return of Yellowstone. America's number one show is on Paramount network. What will become of the Dutton family can. When they save the Yellowstone ranch? How far will Beth and Rip go to protect the family legacy? Generations of blood have led to this, and nothing will prepare you for it. The epic return of yellowstone. Sundays at 8, 7 Central. Only on Paramount network.
- [08:20]
B
A year. A year kind of thing. And I'm like.
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A
And this is all while you were running for Senate?
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B
Yeah, yeah. This was. This was after. This was after. This was after. This was three days before the primary.
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A
Oh, my God.
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B
Yeah. I was on my. I was on my way to an event, and my wife, Giselle, she's like, you're having a stroke. Because they had that classic kinds of where, you know, half of my face. I didn't know that, but it kind of just, you know, just slumped. Yeah. And then they hotlined me over to the hospital. And I wouldn't have survived if we were in a different. I mean, there's parts of Pennsylvania, and that's part of the tragic that if I wasn't close to the kinds of hospital that I was, it's 100% that I wouldn't have survived that. Wow. And it got me there in enough time, and they were able to. There was an expert there. And I actually had. I met that doctor that literally saved my life. And I'm like, oh, my God. And he usually wasn't based in that hospital. He was usually out of Delaw, but he happened to be there, and he was here to give me an award for being that kind of an advocate for those things. I'm like, no, you deserve the award on that. And that's incredibly lucky. And then I asked, really looking for a countdown of like, well, what's the prognosis? And really, there wasn't much there on that. And I had to like, was I going to survive for long? Or, you know, what's that going to look? And then, of course, the entire majority on the Senate really was on the middle of that. And that's a big responsibility after that. And then, so the primary, it happened, and I actually had a really strong win. And I won all of 67 counties. Pennsylvania has 67 counties. And we carried every county. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and all across Pennsylvania. But at that point, I had a responsibility. It's like, am I able to recover? Or where a kind of, am I going to be okay? And I wouldn't recommend being in that. In that situation, but I made a commitment More than anything, I was more worried about being around to be a dad. I mean, I have three young kids and my wife, you know, she lived through all of this. So at that point it started, I was in the hospital for about 10 days. Yeah. And I start to get better and better. The strength started to come back a little bit, but it was still rough. And it was very, very clear, though, that I had a capacity to. It's been impaired on hearing and those kinds of interaction and those things. So. But that's the thing. But I had to Dec. By Aug. 15, and that's actually, that's my birthday, ironically, that if I step down by then or before then, they're going to have to find somebody to replace me on the primary. And that was going to be my drop. My dropout day on that.
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A
So what was the operation? How did they do it? How did they remove the clot?
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B
Well, it's. I mean, I had to. Originally, I had to go back to. I have to learn how to. How to talk and speak. You know, I went to a speech therapist and have interaction and those kinds of things. And my hearing and those kinds of things were still impacted by that. And they had to monitor my heart because it was. It effectively stopped. I found out after the fact that it actually stopped and then that my heart had to recover. So there was two kinds of things working there, you know, my heart. And then right before the primary, they walked in and they said, well, here, here's what I suggest. Here's what I suggest. Now we are going to put a pacemaker. We're going to put in a pacemaker. And we're like, hey, that's the best thing. So they put that device right here. And for anyone if you're not really with. That is a pacemaker, but that manages your heart. Because I had a significant issue with afib. And that's really what. What did that to my heart. And they put that in. And then that was. That was. That was right before the primary and they put me under and I.
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A
What year was this?
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B
This was 22.
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A
2022. And before you had this stroke, had you ever had any issues before with clotting or anything? Like, was this like a.
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B
Not with clotting. Not with clotting. You know, my. I have. For good. For good things and for bad things. My heart was just like my father's, you know, and he had an issue with afib and he was in the hospital for.
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A
So it's a genetic.
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B
Yeah, a genetic. And. But I didn't. It Was never an idea. It was never an idea that I was going to. Even having a stroke, that wasn't part of the. At least my thinking. I knew that I was in distress. You know, I could tell that my heart was. Was in problem and I was just going to get through this primary. I mean, there's a lot running on that. And then it didn't work out because the stroke hit three days before. And then that forced me, and that put me on an incredibly different kind of a path after that.
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A
And so where do they go in when they're removing the clot? Do they have to cut your skull open? Like, how do they get it out of there?
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B
They went up in your vein in your leg, and they went up in. And it's just. It's a remarkable technology that.
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A
Through your leg.
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B
Yeah.
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A
All the way up to your brain.
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B
And they just sucked it out and they actually had an xy, an X ray or whatever. And you could say that, hey, we got it out. And I actually got to see. Although I really was still kind of out of it. But that was the clot that all but took my life. And so, I mean, there were a lot of things there. You know, suddenly your mortality was kind of like, put right there in front of it. Through that.
- [14:53]
A
Do they have any idea what caused the clot? Do they understand, like, what happened to you? I'm always. My grandmother had an aneurysm and it was a horrible situation. They didn't find her for several hours afterwards. My grandfather came home and she wasn't in the house. And then he found her in the backyard. She had collapsed. And they gave her 72 hours to live. And she lived for 12 years like that. It was horrible. My grandfather had to take care of her. It was. It was really, really rough. So I'm always like, really concerned with that kind of stuff. Like, I don't like what causes it. Do they know?
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B
Yeah, well, it's. I mean, I had for the first time in my life, and I hope it's the last time that I'm confronted by this idea that the doctors weren't able to provide any kinds of certainty or it's like, oh, yeah, man, you're going to be okay, or things are going to be okay. That wasn't.
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A
So they don't know what caused it?
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B
Well, I mean, it was afib and my heart weakened and the stress of the primary and on the ongoing kinds of issues, it was already weakened about that issue earlier. And everything kind of came together and I guess my heart deteriorated to the point where that caused the clot and then the clot. That's what nearly took my life. Whew.
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A
So then you have to go to work. So now you are an elected senator, and you have to go to work in the middle of recovery.
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B
Yeah, I think. I mean, it's so diff. I had a significant responsibility to stay in that and winning through all of those things, and that was difficult enough. It was an important conversation, and we had to run a campaign. We had to run a campaign when Iowas. It was difficult, and I wasn't working at the kind of capacity that was necessary. And that's. We had to run up to the 15th of August, decide if we're going to stay in that. Because there's a lot riding on that.
- [17:19]
A
And you were also competing against Dr. Oz, which was weird. You know, this guy who's a celebrity doctor who's at least a little shady.
- [17:32]
B
No, it necessarily was the. Yeah, I think, you know, we were talking about captioning early right now, and I think we're having an issue with some of the captioning right now here.
- [17:46]
A
Is it not showing up?
- [17:48]
B
Yeah, I think there's a little bit of a delay.
- [17:51]
A
Well, maybe it's the way I said shady. Yeah, he's a little shady. Like, he had been in trouble for talking about miracle diet remedies that weren't miracles at all. And he. I believe he got brought in front of Congress. So it was a little odd that that guy was running for Senate at all. Was he from Pennsylvania?
- [18:10]
B
Yeah. Well, doctor. Dr. Oz. Yeah, I think. I think from a technology. I think we have to address the.
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A
Oh, is it messing up right now?
- [18:17]
B
Yeah, I think the captioning. The captioning is running a little bit behind on. Okay, so can we make some technological.
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A
Stop and have her. Sure.
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B
Fix it? Yeah.
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A
Okay. We'll have her come fix it.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, we'll pause here, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be right back.
- [18:30]
B
Yeah, I think we're. I think we are good. I think we're good to go. We. Yeah, we put this on the WI fi, so. And it's. It's working great.
- [18:36]
A
All right, we're back. So what? I was just saying that it was odd that you were running against Dr. Oz and he was just kind of.
- [18:42]
B
Dr. Oz. Yeah, I mean, Dr. Oz. Yeah. And. And he's. He used to be. You know, people used to thought he was, like, really brilliant. I mean, he was like. He was like an amazing kind of surgeon celebrity. And then he turned his career into, like, on tv. And then he started to pitch more kinds of questionable kinds of things and kind of bullshit kind of stuff.
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A
Yeah.
- [19:04]
B
And I don't understand why somebody would change his reputation. I mean, he was really revered in that. And I was. I wouldn't even be. I would have been comfortable to him operate on me, but he kind of lost that. And what was also pretty funny is that he clearly, he lived in New Jersey. And so we were like, hey, we need to use that and point out that. So we just. We decided early on that we are going to just like, hey, you know, it matters. It's like, I mean, there's nothing wrong with living on New Jersey, but there probably is an issue if you're running for the Senate. So. And I really have, like an ethos is that I'm not ever going to be mean and I'm not going to be personal about that. So we tried to have a lot of fun with the fact that he lives in New Jersey. And we just really just kept hitting him, hitting him. And we had Snooki did like a cameo saying, gee, Mehmet, good luck. You know, I know things are going rough now, but you're going to be able to come back to New Jersey. And that got viral. And we did a lot of those viral kinds of moments. And, you know, they have this thing where they have what's really penetrated and, you know, they have circles on things. Like, what's really part of, like, people asking about Dr. Oz. And one of the zeros, the O's was, he's weird. But the biggest one, New Jersey. I mean, literally, New Jersey was.
- [20:24]
A
That was the biggest one.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Even though they're neighbors, they do have a bit of a rivalry.
- [20:30]
B
Yeah, well, of course. And you know, people have to understand that it's like. It's like that funny thing and I mean, it borders with Pennsylvania and that it really matters. It matters that. And of course, Dr. Oz was. He was strange in some sense. And we always try to have fun with making fun of him. Are you a fan. Are you a fan of the Simpsons?
- [20:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. But we matched up perfectly with Dr. Nick, you know, Dr. Nick, Dr. Oz. And we found all the weird shit that Dr. Nick would say, and then they have a clip of Dr. Oz saying those kinds of things, and then that's where it was. And we had a lot of fun with that. And things we all figured out. Well, essentially we chose to kind of empty the clip metaphorically and really start hitting him. You know, we went up on TV throughout the summer, and he was really put on his back and he was essentially thinking kind of take, take the summer off. And then our polling, we got up about 10, 11 points and things, you know, if anyone's listening, ever heard of the 538, you know, they, they track on those, those races. And the highest percentage we had to win was, I think about 84%. And things kept. Went great. Really, really great. And then I had to decide on my birthday on August 15, and things were going so well, and I thought things. I'm like, okay. And then we decided to stay on that race, and that's what we did. And then, you know, post Labor Day when. And oh, my gosh, we just got. We got nuked in a way that it's never been experienced that before. And then how so what do you mean? Oh, $100 million of paid media to destroy you. I mean, just tear you apart every aspect of your life.
- [22:24]
A
$100 million. They spent $100 million for a job that pays how much?
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B
Yeah. Oh, it came from packs, from Dr. US. Dr. US. Put in 20, I think $28 million.
- [22:36]
A
How crazy is that? Because, like, what is Senate? What does it pay being a senator?
- [22:42]
B
You pay being a Senator? Yeah, it's $174,000. Can I talk about this, please? I don't understand why some incredibly wealthy dudes will spend tens and tens of millions of dollars just to take that. And I try to tell people there's no glamour here. I just talked about that in a.
- [23:06]
A
Do you think he wanted to become president and this was like a step to be president?
- [23:11]
B
I guess everybody wants the Iron Throne. I get. But it's the Iron Throne Throne. It's really not, but it also. It's a different kinds of skills and it really doesn't transfer over very well on that. But right now, in Pennsylvania, right now, David McCormick, a Connecticut man, Connecticut man, he's running in Pennsylvania and he lives in Connecticut and he's incredibly wealthy. I think he's worth 3 or $400 million and he's spending the same race in Wisconsin. They're dropping crazy. And really, like that's an important conversation. That the real problem in American politics for me is Citizens United and unlimited money. When they decided that money is speech. And now that turns the whole thing into an incredibly damaging. Right now there's been at least more than half a billion dollars. Half a billion dollars on the table in Pennsylvania just for President, not just the Senate races and other House seats. And I was the most, at least at that point was the most expensive Senate race in history. And it was over $330 million for that one seat. And all of those dollars, they're spent to destroy and tear you apart. And then Fox News, I was their top target for four months. And social media, and I stayed out of that. I didn't enjoy, but social media, all the conservative influencers, everything, and it just tore me apart. And at that point, at the end of September, it was, I mean, I couldn't get away from it. And it really, it's like until you've had $100 million to destroy you, it's a next level kind of thing. And then everyone was, they were saying, well, he's a vegetable, you know, he's a retard or he's lost his brain and all kinds of things. And then that wasn't true. But the kinds of terrible things and those kinds of very personal things, and it just got incredibly ugly in a way.
- [25:26]
A
Yeah. That has got to be a terrible experience to realize that there's so much money being spent just to attack you and that you're a part of this very, very large and corrupt machine that's going after you. Just because they want to control the state. And it's a giant swing state, of course.
- [25:45]
B
Yeah. The Senate. The whole Senate. The whole Senate was, in fact, we actually, we flipped that seat. And that's the first time, I think, in the 40s or 50s that we've had two Democratic senators in Pennsylvania. Usually it's been a Dem and a Republican. And now because we flipped that seat, that's it's mathematically, it's possible to retain the majority in the Senate, but it's going to be still fairly difficult because we have Montana, very, very red state, obviously. And that's really what the Republicans have put a significant bet to make sure that they can flip Montana. And then if Montana falls, then they're going to keep the, the majority or they're going to get the majority, unless there's like a really surprise one, but that it may be more kind of difficult.
- [26:32]
A
Do you think that money is the biggest problem in American politics? This ability to spend insane amounts of money?
- [26:42]
B
Yeah. I mean, just imagine if you were a movie studio and you're putting out a, you're going to put out a movie and a rival studio has $100 million to tell America that movie sucks. You know, that's shit. And it's crazy. And it just. There's always going to be unlimited money because it's all about the control of the Senate or the House or the presidency. And when money is speech, it's going to be unlimited. And what happens, it's like, well, that's TV and on social. And it's going to be, how can I destroy and break this individual? And that's where it is. And it gets incredibly personal. And it has an impact. I mean, that certainly it has for me. And until we have unlimited money, it's going to get more and more mean, personal and expensive. And if you look at the billion, you know, billions of dollars that's spent, how, what we could have done for our society, the kinds of reels that we could build and other things if we didn't spend all those money to tear each other apart.
- [27:50]
A
Yeah, it's very strange and it sets a terrible tone for the rest of the country because these races, even though when they're over, people go back to a certain level of civility, it's already been established that this is on the table. These personal attacks, this evil, vicious propaganda, taking things out of context, conflating people's words.
- [28:14]
B
Yeah, no, you have, you take any quote, take it out of context, click that shit, put $10 million behind that. And that's in front of millions of eyeballs right there spontaneously on that. And it just, it's directly right at you. And there's, it's, it's unlimited money. I mean, you know, when you look back on this race, it's like you are going to be stunned just how much money is put in that, how crazy those ads are. And just you can't get away from it. Like Montana, Montana has, I think, six or seven hundred thousand votes voters and they've dropped a quarter of a billion dollars. I don't know how you could even spend a quarter of a billion dollars in Montana. It's like if you have $100,000 in cash, you have to pay that in going to a McDonald's. I don't know how they do that, but I promise you, everybody in Pennsylvania or in any of these kinds of contested states, they just can't get away from that shit. And at this point, they just stop paying attention to. It's like it's noise, it's toxic kinds of noise.
- [29:21]
A
And it does, it sets a tone for the whole country that we're willing to engage in this way.
- [29:26]
B
Oh, yeah. No, it's like that's the thing. It turns everything into a night vise or worse, and it is about trying to destroy that person and to convince other people that you are the worst thing in the world. You're a Marxist, you're a communist, or just all kinds of things. And it's the lowest, lowest denominator. And if you really want to fix American politics, I mean, there are issues, but I promise you, if you removed that, that would be a dramatic kinds of thing. And we all have to play that game. Some of us, like myself. I got a lot more of my money from small dollar donations. Like Bernie. Bernie, I know he's been on the show, Bernie. But then other ones, it's like everyone chases the bigger, the bigger checks. It's undeniable there too. And it's so disingenuous. And there's PACs and there's other kinds of organizations one way or another. It's just the way to funnel tens of million dollars to just tear someone apart.
- [30:28]
A
What was your background before you got into politics?
- [30:31]
B
I was a social. I was a social worker. And I came to a very deeply broken and fractioned fracture community. And I actually started helping young men and women get their GEDs and just kind of getting their lives back on track in that sense. And then that's why I did that for several years. And then I decided I wanted to run for mayor and mayor of a small town. And we had problems with inequality in a community that had 90% of the population abandoned the community and left. And if anyone's aware of the US Steel, I mean, I live right now across the street from that iconic steel mill. I mean, that's really. That used to be America's Silicon Valley. Like, about half of the world's steel used to be manufactured there, but now so much has changed. And then I ran for mayor and a small town mayor. And then that turned into. Well, I decided like, the kinds of issues that were meaningful to me and the personal kinds of experiences, I just thought he. I want to project my kinds of experiences and my values. And I started. I ran for the first time in 2016. I ran for the Senate. I mean, it's pretty kind of strange that you have a small town mayor running for the United States Senate. But, I mean, we had no money. I mean, zero money on that. But we just, we had a really, like, grassroots kind of a thing. And we got out across Pennsylvania and we came up a little short, but we pulled in 20% of the votes, which. That was pretty. People thought that was pretty remarkable. And I carried my home county, which is Allegheny, that's the second largest. And that really kind of set the stage to run for lieutenant governor a couple years later, after 2016. But 2016, though, that was where America met Donald Trump. And I was early turning the alarm off, saying, hey, we have to be concerned here. Trump has connected with people in ways that it's like, we have to be concerned. And I'll never forget, it was June in 2016, and I was a surrogate for Clinton, and Trump announced, hey, I'm showing up in a town called Monessen, which is a small steel town in the valley down from ours. And I'm like, why is he showing up in. I mean, that's not like. So either he's crazy or they've plugged into something, and, like, I have to see that. So I tried to get into that just to kind of see what was going on, but they recognized me and they said, yeah, get the fuck out.
- [33:20]
A
Well, you're hard to hide.
- [33:22]
B
Yeah. And so. But they're like, they figured out that they have to connect and to make that kind of an argument to go to these kind of places. And it did. It resonated. And you started to see a lot of the signs and a lot of the energy, and it's like, hey, you know, there's a problem. And the Clinton campaign, everybody assumed that she was going to run away with it.
- [33:45]
A
Yeah.
- [33:46]
B
And they made the mistake of just showing up in Philadelphia. Philadelphia. And Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh. And assumed that they were going to be okay. But. But a lot had slipped. And now the margins. Trump created margins that were unheard. We referred to them as Romney margins. So in other words, you have red counties, and Romney would cover those by about 60 to 65%. And Trump did. He created 80s. 80s. We were losing. 80. 20. 80, 20. And like, well, yeah, that's a small county, but, yeah, you multiply that by 57. 57 other counties, and that's how they scale up. And that's how he won. And he won by 45,000 votes. And that's why he captured the blue wall, and that made him president. And here we are right now. The blue wall is. They're both fighting on the blue wall, and the blue wall is Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan.
- [34:48]
A
When you were running during 2016, what were you trying to accomplish? Like, what did you want to do that you felt like you could uniquely provide a service for?
- [35:01]
B
Well, it wasn't. I just think it was just different. I'm like, hey, I was running for about forgotten places, people where America has turned their backs on them, and talking about those kinds of important issues, like living wage, abandoning the industrial parts of America. You know, some people watching what things have been left behind. In places like Braddock, it's like, it's astonishing. 90% of people left and 90% of the buildings are gone. And that whole region has just been just thrown away. So I just wanted and I didn't. There was a path. I mean, there were two other people in the primary and I thought I could maybe split, I could split the other two and just sneak by and get 33% plus one extra vote. But I came up a little short because I had no money because it's always going to be about money. And then Katie McGinty, she won, but she lost. And then that was that same cycle and then the same year that Trump won.
- [36:10]
A
And so since you've been in, since you've gotten into the Senate, what meaningful change have you been able to accomplish there?
- [36:19]
B
Well, again, you're a freshman and you know my colleague and one that was just here, Senator Vance, I mean we were both in the same cycle. We Both ran in 22. So we both there for less than two years. And it's really based on seniority and it's just kind of like, hey, get on the end of that line. So you are a freshman and your influences, at least in the institution are limited in some sense. But if you have a bigger platform and I did and I tried to have those kinds of impacts and having those conversations, but my first half of that first year that was a little took a different detour because, you know, I was dealing with depression, I was with depression and I realized that I was in a bad place so having to make those kind of choices and I signed myself into Walter Reed to get help because the depression. And so I think it's an important conversation. And I knew, I thought at that time it could be politically, it could be difficult, but I thought it was important. And now if that costs me something politically, I'm okay. So that's why I'm continuing. So how I've the impact I've had, I never fully expected that that voice would break through. And I'm in contact with people constantly saying thank you for talking about this. I chose to get help or I chose not to follow that path on self harm. And so I've had active conversations with member of Congress or fathers with and they're like, hey, can you please talk? And I do that. I'm happy to talk to anybody. And so that's a way I've had an impact through all of that and also my voice through after what happened on 10 7th, October 7th and I've decided I was going to be a very consistent voice for Israel through that. So that's why kind of like the platform. But in terms of if anyone's being honest, whether it was Senator Vance or any kinds of freshmen senators, it's very limited because otherwise there's people that have been there for 25, 30 years. They're the ones that are the chairman. And if you're a minority party, you have incredibly limited kinds of ability to move an agenda.
- [38:46]
A
So the depression thing, I think it's very important that you talked about that. I think transparency is something that people really appreciate. So many people suffer from depression. It's such a normal part of being a human being. And for a guy like you, who's a senator, who's already gone through being attacked, already gone through all these horrible things that they said about you, are you recovering from a stroke? It takes a lot of courage to come out and discuss that. I think it's really important. I'm really glad you did it.
- [39:20]
B
Well, I don't. Well, thank you. But I don't think it was really courage. It's like I only had a choice.
- [39:24]
A
But it is courage because you know you're going to be public attacked and it's a vulnerable point. But I think it's not because I think so many people suffer from it. I think there's courage in coming out and talking about it openly and realizing that people are going to use as an attack vector and saying, you know what, this is important to talk about. This is important to acknowledge and to show people that you can recover from something like that.
- [39:51]
B
Well, originally I was just going to talk about depression and there's a paradox. You know, you might be a place in your life that you've actually kind of won, but depression lies to you and it convinces you that you've lost. And my depression got far more worse after I won. And then it was a downward spiral. And then if you don't check your depression, then you go down a dangerous slope about self harm. And I started to have. I got to occupy that kind of a dark place. And that's when I realized that I have a choice. It's like if I don't address this, then I had an emergency break. You know, it's like I have to stop. I have to stop. I have to. And that was my kids. I'm like, I'm like, I cannot be. I can't be the example. And when you're going to get older in life and you're going to have those kinds of challenge, well, hey, dad decided to leave, that must be the right thing. And I'm like, I cannot allow myself to be the example for that. So I stayed in the game and I was able to get help and I got much better. So, like, for me, it's like, I originally didn't want to talk about self harm because that's definitely. That's definitely not a great political winner. But I was like, I have to be answered. Excuse me, I have to be honored about that and honest. And people that really resonated with people. I was, I think, the first person. I was the first politician, especially at that level, talking about self harm. And, you know, if people are. That are suffering, people that, I mean, you have a huge, a huge audience. I'm willing to bet plenty of them are suffering from that or looking through those kinds of issues.
- [41:38]
A
No doubt. No doubt.
- [41:39]
B
Yeah. And I promise people, whatever your path, whatever your path is for recovery, and I'm not an expert, but if you promise yourself to stay in that game, stay in that game, that you are ready, you're almost guaranteed to get better, because I promise you it will get better. And I was at the point where I was really in a very dark place, and I stayed in that game, and I'm staying in front of you right now and having this conversation. And so that's what I try to tell everybody, whether they're listening today or in other times when I've had that it's an honest conversation, but it is a red and blue conversation, and it's a rural and urban or suburban conversation. It's men or women or even younger kids. I've had conversations with teenagers, with their parents, and they've even tried to take their lives. And I can't think of anything much more tragic than especially a young person taking their lives over some of the things that. And I never thought that voice would penetrate, but it did, and that's why I'm willing to have that conversation.
- [42:48]
A
Well, apparently it's very common for people that undergo major surgery to have depression afterwards. And there's a bunch of physiological reasons for that. They believe. My friend, Dr. Mark Gordon, who's done a lot of work on traumatic brain injuries and depression amongst athletes and soldiers, he did a lot of research on that. And one of the things that they found is that people that undergo like a long period of anesthesia and either heart surgery or any kind of major surgery, there's a disruption of your endocrine system afterwards that leads people to be just weary and broken down. And I could imagine that along with the Senate race and all the other chaos and all the stresses involved with that, it plays a significant factor.
- [43:39]
B
Well, I'm sure it must have been a factor. I discovered that I had two friends, they're roughly my age and they had young kids and they took their lives and they were both in the media and both. One worked for an incredibly elite organization and another one had a really strong position. One had a heart attack and the other one had a stroke years earlier. And I found out and I wish I could have talked to them and I did talk to them, but it doesn't mean they were weak or that they gave up. It's just I got lucky and I found my emergency brake. And if you have any kinds of study on people and self harm, there was an individual, he jumped off the Golden Gate and he survived. And immediately after he says as he crossed over the rail and he I want to live, I want to live. What have I done? It's like I've made a terrible mistake. And you hit the water going 75 miles an hour and it's very against chance of surviving. But he did and now he became obsessed with this idea and he looked out for everyone that survived. And about 45 people out of 1800 people that have jumped over, they survived. And it was unanimously people immediately like, oh my God, I want to live, I want to live, I want to live. And not one single person thought, well I wish I was more successful. So like that's, I try to put that forward and I can't imagine how difficult because they had children the same age mine and trying to explain to a 10 year old son like why did daddy leave? And those were dark conversations. And so it's not about weakness, it's about trying to get away from that. People that are suffering from depression, if anyone's been there, it's like your mind is on fire and you just want to get away from that. Just please, I need relief from that kind of a thing. And every now and then you have kind of like the eye of the hurricane or you finally thought maybe things could get better, but it, it roars back in and it's like you get back to that very dark place and I just tell everybody, I'm begging you, stay in that game. I promise you it can get better. And the depression is lying to you. It is absolutely lying to you. But don't make the kind of choice that you can't come back from.
- [46:16]
A
I have a friend who jumped off the bridge, died that way. It's, it's a terrible Just a terrible thing to find out. And you always feel like you could have talked to them, you could have helped. You always feel like, yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know he was suffering. And then I found out that he died a few days later, and it was just like. It just leaves you feeling so lost. It's such a terrible way to go to that bridge. God, how many people, like, would you say how many people have jumped off that bridge? The Golden Gate?
- [46:52]
B
I think they reference over 1800 people. And a small, Small, tiny. Survived. And really being faced. That idea that you're not going to come back, it's like spontaneously curative, like, oh, my God, I want to live. I want to live. I want to live. Like, it was unanimous about. And that's such an important kind of research that he did. And it's like. And again, like, that's my message. It has to be very simple. Stay in that game. It's like, you can't do this. You can't do this.
- [47:26]
A
And you need support.
- [47:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, you need support, whatever that is. And some people have different kinds of resources. I mean, I would want that for everybody. The resources that I had. And that's not fair. It's not fair. And I got lucky. It's not because I'm like, I'm so much stronger or better. It's like, no, no, I just got lucky on that. And I promise you, you're not going to regret staying in the game and you can get better. And that is probably. I think, in my opinion, that's about 75% of getting back better.
- [48:04]
A
What have you done to help? What has helped you?
- [48:10]
B
My family. That's really what, like, every person needs to have, like, that emergency. I call that like an emergency break. It's like, you know, you're out of control. You know, you're having that. The darkest conversation you'll have with yourself. And you have to have something to stop that. Otherwise you're going to go over the edge. And everyone needs to have that, whatever that is, whether it's your family, whether it's your wife or your husband or whether it is. Or that. There has to be some. It has to get better. It's going to get better. That's why I say stay on the game. And I'm not an expert, I'm not trained in that, but when people reach out to me and say, well, how? I feel like this, and I'm like, hey, it's like, help works. I promise you it will get better. And I can't guarantee what your path will be. But what I can say is that stay in that game and you were going to find your way on that path and you're never going to regret. It's like, oh, you know, it just the finality, the finality of that. And some things you can make a bad choice and you know, well, that might set you back in life, but that's the one choice you can't come back from. And you will leave people in your life that, that they'll never understand, or you wish you could reach back and you could let them know and stay away from that kind of blackness because I promise you, you would regret. And if you can't come back.
- [49:52]
A
So what has helped you? Counseling, medication. Like, what are the things that got you back on track other than just your family?
- [50:01]
B
I. The election and everything. I was convinced that I've lost everything I had. It was difficult to fully speak. And my kids, they got pulled into the social media kinds of invective. And it's like, I've destroyed my health and now I've against odds. I won. And now am I going to be able to do this job? And would I have been better off if I didn't survive? And I got to that kind of a dark place. And then I just had this like that spontaneous where it's like, my kids, it's like, no, I love you. Like, oh my gosh. It's like when they were visiting, I didn't want them to visit me at Walter Reed. I was like, why would they want to be around this? But they did. And it was like this kind of spontaneous kinds of love. And it just was like a shot. And it's just like, I can come back. I can come back. I thought, it's like, why would they want this mess back? And then just working through a lot of those things and other kinds of techniques and things. But that was probably the single most transformative event where it's like, I realized that I can come back to my life. Otherwise, it's like I thought, I've lost everything. Would I be able to even do my job? And it's like, do I even have a career? I mean, I'm talking about. That was a significant national story after I signed myself in and. And that pulled my kids in through that. I mean, this idea. And after we announced that we're signing in and there were news trucks outside their house and they had the trauma of thinking that dad could have lost after the stroke, and now he is. It's just, it's put them through so much. And that's why I was convinced that they probably don't want me around. And then I made the stupid mistake of I went on social media and things. I'm like. And just. I read some of that shit. I mean, it's just. It's just, oh, my God. Millions and millions of views in videos, and it's just like, you know, going after my family and saying that, you know, hey, he's a vegetable. He's, you know, he's a retard, and, you know, sling blade and all kinds of things. And it wasn't. It wasn't the individual kinds of insults. It was the volume and just how widespread it was. And I'm like, who jumps online to go after a stranger? That's never really done anything to you personally?
- [53:03]
A
Well, I think it's not just individuals. I think it's targeted. I think there's a lot of that stuff, especially when there's something that is significant as a Senate seat. And I think there's.
- [53:14]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, it's like, If I have $100 million to convince you that you're a terrible person and you're the worst thing ever, and that inspires a lot of people. And, hey, that's the mission. It's like, he clearly. He must be those things. And, you know, there's no tap out. There is no tap out. It's like, even after we won, after I won, in some sense, it actually accelerated.
- [53:38]
A
Right? It's not. The war's not over. It's just begun.
- [53:42]
B
No. Oh, no, no. And the second you step into that kind of arena on the federal level for like a Senate seat, if it's like a purple state like Pennsylvania, you know, I promise you there will be tens and tens of millions of dollars. And their mission is to turn you into the worst thing in the world. And whoever survives, that's the one that's going to be in that seat. And I still will never understand why someone, you know, independently wealthy kinds of people will spend, you know, incredible amounts of money. And I try people. I'm like, there's no glamour here. I'm in a 500 square foot apartment and I'm like, here with my phone. I'm like, hey, grubhub, what's it tonight? And then it's like, I'm like, I watch TV on Netflix and things and I ask my colleagues, I'm like, hey, is there kind of secret society, like, crazy parties or sitting around with cigars? And they're like, well, no, I kind of have the same version of that.
- [54:46]
A
That's the perception, though, right? Yeah, the perception is we invite it into a club.
- [54:51]
B
Yeah.
- [54:52]
A
Now you control the world.
- [54:53]
B
Yeah. That we all have witty kinds of dialogue on West Wing, like, talking, like, kinds of turn, you know, and really, it's just like. And I describe that as a lot of. It's just bad. It's just bad performance art. Yeah, thanks. That's usually what it is. It's just bad performance art. And some people, like, if you're. If you're in a safe. In a safe state or a safe seat, you. And especially if you have the resources and they're incredibly wealthy people, they buy a house and they move their life there, so you're able to kind of things. But, like, I don't have those resources, and I'm in a very, very. The ultimate purple. And so I spend more than 50% of my time away and I miss my kids. It's rough for that. I mean, I signed up for that. But I promise you, there's no glamour in that.
- [55:50]
A
Well, there's certainly no glamour, if you're honest, but I think there's a lot of people that look to certain members of the government that have jobs that pay 150, $170,000 a year, but somehow or another acquire hundreds of millions of dollars over the course of their career, usually through some kind of insider trading.
- [56:13]
B
Well, yeah, of course. I mean, I don't own any of those stocks or anything. And definitely, like, if you have any kinds of impact or, you know, that there's something civic coming.
- [56:24]
A
Yeah, I mean.
- [56:24]
B
Yeah, it's like, you need.
- [56:26]
A
How is that legal?
- [56:28]
B
Well, no, we should have the kind of legislation to make sure that you're not. Like, if you are on Congress, you shouldn't have any kinds of stocks because you are going to be passing kinds of laws, et cetera, et cetera, that you have to separate, that there really shouldn't be a part of that kinds of a thing. And I mean, I'm all out. I'm open. All of us, we have to have our wealth and all that there. And if I'm not the poorest, I have probably the bottom five. And other people there are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. So, you know, we can't have that situation where, you know, if you're going to be involved on those kinds of legislation, that you can't be enriched by those kinds of. And there has to be some kind of influence.
- [57:17]
A
That seems simple, that seems, like, logical. Like, most people would agree to that.
- [57:22]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of. There's a lot of inertia. It's the same thing. I think if any one of us were being honest, money is destroying our democracy, and that's that some people, that might sound trite or it's a cliche, but it's 100%.
- [57:37]
A
Though I think most people who are objective would agree with you.
- [57:40]
B
I promise you it is absolute. It is a scourge of American democracy. And money is king. And what's that money for? That money is for tearing you apart. And that creates more and more and more kinds of incivility and cruelty. And then now when I went through, when I was in graduate school for that stuff, I mean, there was no social media and there wasn't, you know, there wasn't podcasts, there wasn't all kinds of things. So that made it more difficult. But. But now there's all of those things. And social media is an accelerate and count, you know, just unlimited money. And that has what, you know, like, I'm sure you, you know, you're, you're an athlete. And if you've heard that NFL players, it's like, wait, would you want your son to play? And sometimes say, well, no, I wouldn't want that for my son. And it's like, I'm relieved that my oldest is, like, he has no interest in being in politics. So I can't imagine it's going to get better until we address this idea that unlimited money is unlimited attack. And it's unlimited cruelty and hyperbole and just all kinds of poisoning the well that, you know, half of us are going to hate your guts and the other half, that's my team.
- [59:05]
A
Yeah.
- [59:06]
B
So.
- [59:07]
A
Well, I strongly feel that the Internet should remain the way it is in terms of people being able to post on social media anonymously if they so choose. But the problem with that is it can be captured by money and it can be captured by these enormous groups that have bot farms, whether it's state actors, whether it's other countries, other nations that are doing that to try to attack our, our system and to try to promote certain narratives, or whether it's our own country itself doing it, because I think we do it too. And I think that packs do it, and it's just people hook themselves up.
- [59:48]
B
It's like you. You self select your cocoon.
- [59:51]
A
Yes.
- [59:51]
B
You know, and like, I'm a big fan of Apple News and it's like 13 bucks a month, but I read everything across the spectrum, you know, very, very left and very Very right in between. And I think it's really. I think that's your responsibility, especially if you're an elected leader, to be challenged to challenge yourself on the ideas. And it's like, clearly one side doesn't have all the answers, and the other side can't be 100% wrong. And it's just challenging and living or taking in other kinds of perspectives. I think that's a responsibility because otherwise, if you only just cocoon yourself into. And it's just. It turns into one gigantic circle jerk. And that's why it just turns people to just kind of dig in. And it's like, hey, you know, the problem is them. And we have to.
- [60:43]
A
Yes, well, it's a problem with human beings in general is that we tend to be very tribal and we tend to commit to an ideology. Whether it's uncomfortable, yes. Comfortable, sure. Especially when you're in an echo chamber, everyone's agreeing with you. You get social credit from saying the things that these people all agree with, and you feed off that. But it's when it's being captured by. It's not just these people exchanging ideas. It's also a bunch of people that are manipulating people's ideas. I don't know if you've ever paid attention to Renee Direst's work with the Internet Research Agency. What they uncovered, what they were doing was using. This was like during the 2016 election, using social media. And it was a lot of Russian troll farms and troll farms in other countries.
- [61:32]
B
It's possible. But to be honest, that election wasn't turned on, I think Russian interference.
- [61:41]
A
No.
- [61:42]
B
What happened in 2016 was Trump, you know, he plugged into, like, kinds of an energy or, you know, like, it was just like, kind of looking to make that kind of a connection there.
- [61:55]
A
Well, he's a legitimate outsider. This is the appeal. The appeal is that people think that this system is completely rigged and it's captured by money and special interests and enormous corporations, and that here's a guy who's outside of this system completely, and the evidence of that is how the system turned against him and how you got to see people on television every night talking about Russiagate, talking about how he's a puppet of Putin, talking about the Steele dossier, talking about all these different things that turned out to not be true. And it. It further, I never bought in.
- [62:29]
B
I never bought into some of that kind of a stuff, because if anyone that spent any time on the ground in one of those states, it's like, it's very clear that wasn't because of some. Some small kinds of tweets and things like, whatever. It's undeniable. And also, remember, he was. The Republican Party was like, hey, this is a joke. And I remember Jeb Bush, and He had like 100 or $200 million, and he just went by. He ticked him off. And even then, people thought he was going to win, but he did. But remember, though, overall, though, that was 75,000 votes. That's a mathematical. Like, you know, I mean, think of that. 160 million votes, 75,000 spread across three large states, including my own, that transformed American politics and in the world as well. And it just came down to 75,000 voters in those three states. And that's kind of where. That's where we're at.
- [63:38]
A
Yeah, it's an extraordinary time in that regard. Right.
- [63:42]
B
I mean, if.
- [63:44]
A
Uncharted territory.
- [63:45]
B
Well, I reference a movie, if you like Bulworth. I remember that movie, Bulworth, and it was Warren Beatty, and he was a senator, and he kind of have, like, a breakdown, and he started saying provocative things. He used to get up in front of his audience and kind of like the gaffe of accidentally speaking, telling the truth. And it was kind of like it was an absurd. I mean, when I was in grad school, that was like, put up as, like, well, I mean, people enjoyed that. And now that became a term in politics saying, oh, we affect. Even President Obama was like, hey, we all want to secretly go full Bulworth. And. But that's what really he channeled in, where he would say, you know, it's kind of like he projects kind of like, well, I don't give a fuck, and just say all those kinds of a thing. And people have responded to those kinds of things. And a lot of people. That's the bug. But you have to understand that for enough people, that's the feature, and that's kind of what they want. And whatever that is, it describes a brand that, you know, it's not. I don't admire that. But you still have to kind of marvel at the level to say crazy kinds of things that. Well, I guess maybe we're both old enough to remember when George in the. George Bush, Al Gore, he is like, God, this guy. And that moved the polls. People were like, he rolled his eyes at Bush things, and it used to be much more staid. And now think of what's been said now and all of this stuff, and I don't think people aren't paying attention. Some of the. Whatever the latest outrage is.
- [65:35]
A
Yeah. I think one of your appeals is that you speak like a normal human being. You speak like a person who actually cares about these issues. And you seemingly speak from the heart. You don't seem polished, which is a good thing. And I think people.
- [65:56]
B
I wish. I wish I was more handsome. I don't think that's good.
- [65:59]
A
I don't think that's good.
- [66:00]
B
Oh, no, no. It's like, I'm honest. Yeah, I'm honest. I think I'm in touch with what. I'm limited. I wasn't blessed with model looks, but it's not looks.
- [66:11]
A
It's the polish of speaking like a congressman, like a senator, like a presidential candidate. But it's this kind of bullshit way of communicating that's inauthentic, that even though it's effective, even though it's polished and smooth, people never get a sense of who that person is as a human being. Trump is not polished. He's not polished in that sense, but you get a sense of who he is as a human being. There doesn't seem to be a veil. There doesn't seem to be this. This disconnect between a human being and the thoughts. You might not agree with him. You might think he's crass or rude, but at least you know that he's the guy that's talking. These are his thoughts. And people trust that way more than they trust someone who's, you know, polished but full of shit.
- [67:02]
B
Yeah, no, it's that Scarface. It's like, you know, word and balls. You know, I'm not gonna. And you're losing politically if you're telling people to not believe what their eyes are seeing, these kinds of issues. And it's like, I'm not gonna lie or I'm not going to toe a line if I don't believe in that. But in terms of the conversation, I think it's all I've got. And it's not because I don't care. It's actually, I'm very committed and I really do care. But. But I think people are like. I think authenticity, that's the last. That's one of the less meaningful currency in this shitty business.
- [67:48]
A
So I was having a conversation this morning with a friend of mine, and we were talking about voter ID, and he was shocked that you don't need voter ID in. I believe it's 15 states. 15 states require no ID. 20, I think it's 24 or 25 states require ID, but only, I think, 11 of them require you to have photo ID. This is a Weird one in this election that I've tried to look at as objectively as possible and I can't see any reason why you would not need ID to vote unless you wanted people to vote that aren't qualified to vote.
- [68:36]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, like, honestly, I would like to remind everybody, and it's not like a talking point, it's actually, it's in the fact that voter fraud is incredibly, incredibly rare. It's really hard to get away with that successfully. And in 2020 at scale, you mean? Yeah, it's not scalable. Yeah, it's like, I mean it's like, and usually it's kind of local kinds of communities and people, they either know that person or it's not. It's never going to be organized in a point where you can pack, you can pack a box or you can't determine that kind of a thing. It's just that, you know, after election, election, election, it's just never been, you know, in 2020, out of over millions of votes in 2020 in Pennsylvania, there were five or six, you know, once. And what happened is that they turned out to be the Republicans and they used their deceased, their dead moms, you know, to vote for Trump through that. And that was documented. And they were all, they were all, they were caught, they were charged, they were convicted and all those votes, that would have been six votes out of all of it.
- [69:52]
A
So do you think that that's the only voter fraud that exists?
- [69:56]
B
Well, people also, we need to remind that, you know, the voter database, they're cross checks against deaths and you know, who's moved or what's their status are like, oh, like, you know, all that's cross checked back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So it's a living kinds of thing where it's continually updated and all of those kinds of things. And it self checks. And remember also in 2020, you know, Trump, they was like, there's cheating, there's all these things are happening. And remember there's probably 57, 58 red counties and all of those commissioners that are in charge of that, they were like, hey, no, there was none, there was none. And even in Georgia, even in Georgia, Governor Kemp, Governor Kemp, like, hey, you know Georgia, you know, it was very close, but it was honest. There was no kinds of fraud in that. And that's a Republican.
- [70:48]
A
But other than making things a little bit easier to cheat, what would be the logic behind not having voter id? I've tried to look at this as objectively as possible. I can't find any reason why you would not require someone to be able to prove that they're the person they say they are when they're putting in their ballots.
- [71:12]
B
It's not a hill that I'm saying we have to die on that too, again, but it's a vulnerability, clearly.
- [71:17]
A
Right.
- [71:18]
B
Well, it's also there. Some people may not believe that in a lot of these kinds of communities, you know, ones that I, that I live in for some people, they're not going to. They don't have an ID necessarily, or they've lost it or whatever. And you know, like.
- [71:35]
A
But you need one to get a driver's license. You need one to get a car license.
- [71:38]
B
They don't have one. Yeah, they would have to get an ID or it costs X amount of dollars or those kinds of a thing. It's a barrier. And it usually tends to skew more towards people that are, you know, coming from those kinds of communities. And the Republicans understand that they're usually going to. They're going to skew towards Democratic voters through that. And so that's kind of the argument on that. And there's never been any evidence that there is widespread kinds of voter fraud. And that's.
- [72:12]
A
But we really didn't have widespread mail in ballots to the extent that it was done in 2020. We really didn't have that before.
- [72:19]
B
All of those were. All of those were those five or six dead moms that were voting. Those were all. Well, actually one guy went in, he voted and then he went up to his car and he put on sunglasses and a bobcap and he walked in. He's like, hi, hello, I'm here to vote. And the guy's like, you were just here. What are you doing? And then they called the police. And then it's like, yeah, he was trying to double vote.
- [72:45]
A
Did you see the story about the Chines Chinese national who was arrested because he voted and then he tried to get his ballot back and that's how they caught him.
- [72:57]
B
It's possible. Yeah.
- [72:57]
A
Yeah. This is thing that just happened. And unfortunately, once he's voted, even though he was not eligible to vote, his vote is going to count. Texas removed some. I mean, there's lawsuits about it, but Texas removed somewhere in the neighborhood of a million people that. That were ineligible to vote, that could have been voting.
- [73:16]
B
Well, everybody knows who's voting and who's not voting on that. And then that's why.
- [73:21]
A
What do you mean by that? What do you mean by everybody knows?
- [73:23]
B
Well, and remember also too, Dominion people on the Trump side, they all said that Dominions was corrupt and that cost Fox $800 million. They had to pay $800 million about defamation for saying that it was rigged or if it's not and there was no evidence and they had to just acknowledge that this was the honest thing.
- [73:48]
A
But Dominion is a computer program, right? It's a computer. Like that's what you're doing. You're doing electronic voting.
- [73:55]
B
Yeah, that was a system that mostly and often it was red states that were using those.
- [74:01]
A
Do you remember? Well, that is true because. Do you remember the documentary Hacking Democracy? Did you ever see that again?
- [74:07]
B
There's always going to be people that are going to try to have an influence on that.
- [74:11]
A
Right, but did you see that documentary? It was about the Republicans doing it.
- [74:14]
B
I haven't seen seen that documentary.
- [74:15]
A
It was a documentary during the Bush administration and one that they showed that the die bold machines, when Diebold was a significant contributor, I believe, to the Republican Party, they showed in the documentary that you could use a third party input to change the results. And they actually proved it in the documentary. And people were pointing to this is, oh my God, the Republicans are cheating. And the Republicans have used this to try to rig the election for George Bush. It was an HBO documentary.
- [74:47]
B
I'm not accusing, I've never accused the Republicans, like, well, in 2016.
- [74:53]
A
No, I'm not saying he did. What I'm trying to say is that this is not a thing that's only been leveled against the Democrats using it. This is not like an accusation that only applies to Democrats. In the past, a similar accusation was applied to Republicans.
- [75:11]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, I think we can all agree that we need to have a. Just like our border. We need a secure border. And we need an absolutely secure voting system as well, too. I mean, that should never be considered controversial. And in 2016, a lot of Democrats were outraged that we lost. But I never claimed that there was, you know, the Republicans cheated or do all those kinds of things. And it's like, you know, the problem, the problem for accusing that there was voter fraud is that if you don't like the outcome.
- [75:47]
A
Right.
- [75:48]
B
You know, so. And I have never witnessed an election if they've won that they claimed, well, there might be, you know, we might have cheated. Yeah, no, we're not cheating. So that. So I think that's kind of, I think that's kind of the underlying truth about that. And of course, I think I was first Democrat saying, hey, we need a secure border. It's a significant issue. And if I thought there was any kinds of issues and I've been very vigilant throughout. I've been actively involved in those kinds of things and I've never witnessed those kinds of a thing.
- [76:24]
A
What do you mean by issues? Like what kind of issues are you talking about? You're talking about people letting people in in order to get votes?
- [76:33]
B
Well, it's not, there's not that level kinds. I don't think there's that level kinds.
- [76:37]
A
Of organization, but there is an organization that's moving these people to swing states. There's a significant number of these people that are illegal immigrants that have made their way to swing states. And then there's been calls for amnesty. There's been calls for allowing these people to have a pathway to citizenship and allow them to vote. The fear that a lot of people have is that this is a coordinated effort to take these people that you're allowing to come into the country. Then you're providing them with all sorts of services like food stamps and housing and setting them up and then providing a pathway to amnesty. And then you would have voters that would be significantly voting towards the Democrats because they're the people that enabled them to come into the country in the first place. First place. And provided them with those services. This is a big fear that people have and that you're rigging this system and that this will turn all these states into essentially locked blue like California is.
- [77:41]
B
Well, you know, it's. Well, immigration is always going to be a tough issue in our nation. You know, I had as a professor in grad school, Alan Simpson. Alan Simpson. And he was, he was a United States Senator, he was Wyoming and he was actually a pro choice Republican. I mean, how rare that would be. Well, it doesn't exist now. And he said, you are never going to have any meaningful immigration kinds of legislation. He's like, because both side that's useful for them. And it's going to be back and forth, back and forth. And he said that 25 years ago.
- [78:19]
A
Useful meaning the debate, having it always.
- [78:23]
B
Some political topic on one side or the other. It's useful. And he said there were never going to be. And he said that in 1999 and I voted for the border deal. And that went down. And I mean he said that 25 years ago and that was absolutely true now that they had an opportunity to do a comprehensive border bipartisan. And that went down because Trump, Trump, he declared that that's a bad deal after it was negotiated with the other side.
- [78:56]
A
But didn't that deal also involved amnesty. And didn't that deal also involve a significant number of illegal aliens being allowed into the country every year? I think it was 2 million people. So it was still the same sort of situation. And their fear is exactly what I talked about, that these people will be moved to swing states and that will be used to essentially rig those states and turn them blue forever.
- [79:22]
B
Well, I'm not really sure if that's what's in play. I think it's really like, it's important that we have to have an honest conversation about that.
- [79:31]
A
But doesn't that seem logical, though, if you have a significant number of people that are being moved into swing states that have come across the border illegally and then you've provided them with all these services, you provided them with food stamps, ebt, you've provided them with housing, you could, if you gave those people amnesty and allow those people to vote. And it was very organized. You're talking about 75,000 votes over a few counties that switched everything over to the Republicans. You could see how you import 10 million people over the course of four years illegally and then move a significant number of them to swing states and then provide them with all these services and then give them a path to citizenship. You could essentially rig those states.
- [80:15]
B
Undeniably, immigration is changing our nation. I mean, I haven't spent a lot of time in Texas, but it's very clear that immigration has remade Texas. And I think it's generally, it's for a good thing. And like my wife. My wife's Brazilian and she was. She was. Her family was undocumented and she was seven years old when she was brought here. And I'm the big pro immigration guy that there was. But it also has to be true that we need a secure border and we have to work this out because we are pretending that you have millions and millions of people, you know, living in the shadow and they are here and we have to work together and figure out a way to get forward because they're here. And it seems incredibly a difficult kind of logistics thing. And I think it's also un American to round everybody up and who. The vast majority of them are just living legal lives and doing a lot of the jobs that other people here would never do. I think we can agree that.
- [81:16]
A
Well, J.D. vance actually talked about that the other day when he was here. He was explaining how there are CEOs of large corporations that want these people to come across because they need cheap labor. And the way to get cheap labor is have people that are illegals working for less than what would be our minimum wage.
- [81:36]
B
Well, I'm not aware. I mean, minimum wage, really, I think it's most incredibly difficult and violent kind of jobs. Like, you know, like. And that's, like, that's, you know, meat.
- [81:47]
A
Jobs that a lot of people don't want to work.
- [81:49]
B
A lot of those, those are kind of really rough. Meat processing, construction, very, you know, rough.
- [81:54]
A
Right. And this is the thing that's been said about Springfield, Ohio, that these Haitians that have moved to Springfield, Ohio, people are complaining about them, but the people that have employed these people have saying, listen, these people are taking jobs that other people that lived in this community don't want. They work very hard and they're very happy that they have this pathway to be in America. Now, I think most people that come here come here because they want a better life for their families. And America is essentially a country that was founded by immigration. I'm a grandchild of immigrants. I'm here because of immigration.
- [82:25]
B
We all were immigrants.
- [82:26]
A
This is an immigrant country, essentially.
- [82:28]
B
Yeah. And it's like, again, and like the Haitians, the Haitians, you know, that they're referencing in Ohio, in Springfield, I mean, they're not eating dogs, they're not eating pets and those kinds of things. Now, it's reasonable. I mean, I've said the same thing, that we have to have a secure border, but it didn't even apply to that situation. That was all a legal situation. That was amnesty. Excuse me. And that's because Haiti was.
- [82:56]
A
Terrible.
- [82:56]
B
Yeah, a terrible situation.
- [82:58]
A
Terrible situation.
- [82:59]
B
And to me, they were doing those jobs. And Republicans, even the Republican governor was saying, these are good workers and this is not the problem. They aren't eating geese. And it's just like, you can be very pro, pro border like I am, or you can be very strict on immigration, but you don't have to demonize or try to turn a group of people in that they're eating your dog.
- [83:24]
A
Well, they're eating ducks and eating things. Look, I'm sure some people have done that. You know why I know that? Because some people do that in places that are just Americans. Ducks are edible and some people want to eat a duck, and it's just like, you're not going to stop it. But that's not the major problem that people face. So this is the pro side of it. Right? The pro side of it is you give a pathway to people that are from very unfortunate circumstances. And I think we would both agree that if we were living in those countries and there was A pathway to citizenship in the United States. All you had to do is make it across the border. We would both do it. If it was better for our families, it was better for our future if we were living in a place that had no hope and no future. And all you had to do is make it to America and you could work. We would all do it. I would do it. You would do it. I bet everybody listening to this would do it if they found themselves in that circumstance. That's the best aspect of it. The best aspect of it is good people that are ambitious, that want a better life, which is how this country was founded. The worst aspect of it is Venezuelan gangs are taking over apartment buildings in Aurora, Colorado and San Antonio, Texas. That's the worst aspect of it, is that they're letting in gang members. Venezuelans emptied out their prisons and essentially.
- [84:38]
B
According to the President, Mario, boatlift, you know, the whole.
- [84:42]
A
Right. What happened in Cuba? Yeah, the same kind of deal emptying out their prisons and instructing these people to make it to America. This is a significant problem with the open border.
- [84:52]
B
Yeah. And that's why we need a secure border. And there's also. And all of this is about a truth is that America is a beacon for to the world, millions of people. The demand to become a citizen here or to participate in our amazing society. The demand outstrips the space there. And we're already the very pro immigration. We allow more kinds of a path, more than any other nations in the world on. And people are willing to die and they put themselves at risk just to kind of get here, to be here. So America isn't the problem. America is one of the great hopes in the world. And that's why so many people want to come be a part of that. And that's why it has to have an effective border. And it's like if we had a real issue here and we wanted to address that. And that's why my former professor said that you're never going to have the kind of a deal because it is useful for both sides to weaponize that and to demonize one side or turn the other thing in there because it's a serious important issue.
- [85:56]
A
It's a political talking point that they're always going to use. That's what you're saying?
- [86:00]
B
Yeah, it's useful. I mean, it's weaponized. And that's why you have to have an honest conversation. That's the thing I've always. I was reaching out, saying that was referred to HR1 and that was like Kind of like the dream kind of immigration law coming out of the house. And I was like, hey, if that border deal goes down, then it's like, hey, we should continue to have that conversation. It's like they're parts.
- [86:27]
A
But what's contradictory is that, say if you're coming from Canada or Europe and you're a highly skilled, college educated person who wants to live in America and become a United States citizen, the path to citizenship is incredibly difficult. It's hard. You have to go up for review. You have to show that you're doing something that Americans can't do. You have to be a person of significant talent or ability. There's something about you that we want you in here. Yet if you just make it across the border and walk in, people want to give you amnesty and they want to allow you a path to citizenship quickly without any of those hoops. You don't have to take tests, you don't have to go up for review. Not only that, but once you get here, once you apply for amnesty, there's a significant wait period where you're allowed to maintain your residence in this country. It's between seven and sometimes longer years.
- [87:23]
B
Yeah, well, yeah, we have to figure out what's the weight.
- [87:26]
A
Well, that's kind of crazy though, isn't it?
- [87:28]
B
But the fact is we have an issue. We have millions of people here, and the vast majority of them are living legal kinds of lives. And of course, what would you do.
- [87:38]
A
If you were the president? Let's imagine President Fetterman has to deal with this issue. You want to address the American people. What do you think should be done?
- [87:46]
B
Again, having that I would have the same conversation to Congress and to American people like I'm having right now as well, too. Like, you know, I think it's. Two things can be true at the same time. You can be very pro immigration. I wouldn't have the beautiful family that I have if it wasn't for, you know, challenges and issues with immigration. But then we have to figure out a way that we can marry, a successful way that we can combine. You know, I personally, I do think immigration is really one of our secret weapons. I think that's what makes America so strong.
- [88:18]
A
I agree with you.
- [88:19]
B
Yeah, I do. That's made it ambitious.
- [88:21]
A
People want a better life. I mean, that's literally how we're founded. And that's.
- [88:24]
B
What do you see people trying to live illegally in India or Russia? You don't see people trying to take into nations like that. I mean, and that's a Good point. I mean, in some sense, it's. In a weird way, it's like kind of a. Kind of a. It's a significant but a good problem to have because we have. We're such an amazing nation throughout that. Agreed. But if I'm President Fetterman, I'm like, hey, we gotta figure this out. We gotta figure this out. I'm not gonna demonize. I'm not gonna demonize the Republicans and say that you're a xenophobic. Or, I mean, the second you start calling somebody, oh, you're a xenophobic, it's like, well, then the conversation is gonna shut down.
- [88:58]
A
Right, Right.
- [88:59]
B
And I'm saying it's like a serious conversation requires serious people. And the second. The second. And that's when you talk about unlimited money. And it's like, suddenly you're like. I mean, I had gigantic billboards saying Fetterman equals open borders. And Fetterman, it's just like, I get turned into a Marxist. Yeah, yeah. All these kinds of things. And it's just like. And of course, that was never true. And then when I had the opportunity, because, you know, as I'm a senator and we have that kinds of legislation in front of me, I'm like, yes, we need to have a serious ones. And now people are like, we're shocked. They're like, oh, wait a minute. I thought they told us that he was all, like, bordering opening up and whatever, and it's just not true.
- [89:44]
A
Well, that's the problem with people building a fake narrative around your actual opinions. And I think people have been shocked by you. And we've actually talked about on the podcast over the last couple of years, you say very reasonable things. Very reasonable, honest things.
- [89:58]
B
Yeah, that's the thing.
- [90:01]
A
But it's rare for politicians.
- [90:03]
B
I'm eager to talk to anyone. And it's like. I mean, I was thrilled to be here, and I've been a longtime fan of yours.
- [90:12]
A
Thank you.
- [90:13]
B
And it's like, these are the kinds of parts of times we become too fragile, like, oh, they're not allowed to talk about those things. They're not allowed to have these kinds of conversation. I never understood why that's really a problem. But it's like, when people discover it, it's like, well, hey, he seems to be kind of reasonable. Or maybe I disagree with some things, but he's not what $100 million trained me to think, that that's what true.
- [90:40]
A
Right. The propaganda. So what do you think could be done if you were President Fetterman? Let's bring it back to that. What would you do about the border? How do you secure the border but also allow a pathway for people to pursue their hopes and dreams in the United States?
- [90:58]
B
Yeah, I would, I would have, you know, for me, I would have started with the HR2. And there are elements that are, they're just not palatable to. There are members of my colleagues that, you know, they come from, you know, more deep blue states and that becomes, it's unappallable to some people.
- [91:18]
A
So how do you secure the board border? How would that be done?
- [91:22]
B
Well, I mean, it just, it's got to have it, you know, the best border deal is the only one that can pass. And if, you know, you know, HR2, HR2 was described as like, kind of like, you know, I joke, I call that the only fans list of what Republicans want for immigration. The only fans wish list. You know, they're kind of like, this is what we all want. You know, it's like the only fans. This is what, this is what we want. And that was never going to pass.
- [91:51]
A
What do you mean by that?
- [91:53]
B
That was never going to pass. That was never going to pass. That was like what every Republicans on the House, you know, the hard, the hardliners. That's what it was. And they passed it because in this cycle the Republicans have the majority in the House and now they put that up and that's never going to pass in the Senate because we have control. And then that kind of got sidelined. And then when everything kind of came together and that was the aid deal, that was for Ukraine, for Israel and for China, a lot of other stuff in there. And then the Republicans tied the border to passing that. And there were some people that were frustrated saying, hey, no, no, that's not.
- [92:39]
A
Well, that's one of the more frustrating things about bills is that you can take a bill about an issue, say energy or whatever, immigration, and attach a bunch of other stuff like support for foreign aid, support for specific wars or whatever it is. You could throw a bunch of stuff in there that really shouldn't be in there. And then you have bills that are 2,000 pages long and no one's really reading them.
- [93:03]
B
I thought, well, I thought it was reasonable. I thought it was reasonable to have that conversation. I'm like, yeah, let's have that conversation. I mean, because for me it was about security. And for that aid bill, that was for me. And I think that was, that was our global war on democracy.
- [93:19]
A
Right.
- [93:20]
B
You know, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's in Israel and China and clearly what their intent for China is on Taiwan and all that's coming, and that's really what's under assault. It's undeniable that democracy is under attack. And that's why I'm like, hey, we got to stand, and we got to push back against that. And now. And like, he, hey, we need to have a secure border. So let's put everything together. And we reached that. We actually reached that. And it took months. It literally took months.
- [93:47]
A
But give me your utopian version of it. Like, let's assume that you could just get this passed. What would you do? What would you do to secure the border, but also provide a pathway to people that want a better life?
- [94:01]
B
It's only going to have to be a negotiating way that's palatable to both sides.
- [94:05]
A
I understand that, but what would you do if you knew you could just get something through without this negotiation? What do you think could be done? What's the best version of it? What's the utopian version for John Fetterman?
- [94:18]
B
Well, again, I think eventually, if you are living your best lives and you're following the law and you really just showed up because, hey, I have no path for a life that I would want for my kids. You know, it's like. And that's. To me, that's very American. And remember, what's in this, in the. What's inside the Statue of Liberty. It's like, send us, you know, our tired, huddled masses, too. It wasn't just, hey, send in the PhDs and the, you know, and those kinds of things. I mean, that's what really made our nation. And, you know, the steel industry. The steel industry, you know, in my part of the state that came from, it was European. It was all kinds of immigrants. They all came. They couldn't build the houses fast enough, and that was all foreign labor. And they. A lot of them were sacrificed because it was an incredibly dangerous business in the steel industry, and that built our nation and that became part of our society. And that's really every kinds of wave and that. And to me, America has to be open and a path for anyone that's playing by the rules because. Because the group that you're from or the part of you all started the same kind of a process. It's inevitable. That's the enduring truth, and that's what made America special and that made us. Make us strong.
- [95:37]
A
I agree with you. So. But what could physically be done to secure the border? I mean, the wall was sort of dismissed during the Trump administration. But it was also discussed during the Obama administration. Even Bill Clinton talked about the importance of having secure borders. What could be done physically to secure the border?
- [95:57]
B
Yeah, well, again, because that becomes like a third rail. Well, we can't talk about this, or.
- [96:05]
A
I understand that politically, but let's just assume that that's not an issue. What would you want to do?
- [96:12]
B
It's like, I would want to make sure that first we have to acknowledge the truth. It's like, immigration has been an issue because America is an amazing country, and they're coming from broken countries where they've all recognized that there's not a meaningful path for them to have a quality of life, and they're willing to risk their lives and sometimes they even drown. And it's like, I can't imagine turning. Turning. Could you imagine turning your children over to a coyote? And, you know, they're gonna, you know, go like. Like, if you're trying to leave, imagine. I like, hey, in Pennsylvania, it's like walking to North Carolina with your kids on your back. I mean, it's like, these are desperate kinds of situations. And it wasn't an invasion in that sense. It was just people wanting to have a part of the American dream 100% and acknowledging where that's at, and it needs to have a path, otherwise you're going to have to round up, and that's not realistic, and there's not the resources, and that's going to be incredibly disruptive, and it's going to be damaging economically as well, too.
- [97:12]
A
So how do you provide a pathway while also security.
- [97:16]
B
In my respect, how do you provide.
- [97:19]
A
A pathway while also securing the border?
- [97:23]
B
Well, to me, I think we can chew gum and walk at the same time on this, and it's not going to be perfect. It's going to be messy, and it's not going to be right.
- [97:34]
A
But what would that look like?
- [97:37]
B
Whether there's actually a barrier or, you know, hiring, you know, thousands and thousands of more agents and whatever that it takes on that. And it's like, the best border deal in that situation is the best one that can. That can be. That can pass.
- [97:53]
A
Right?
- [97:53]
B
Because otherwise, you know, like, boy, if I could wake up with a perfect head of hair or, you know, I could, you know, it's like, you know, but it's like, you know, practicing the possible. And we were as close as we've ever game in years and years, and that never came into.
- [98:10]
A
I understand what you're saying that it has to pass, but what I'm saying is Imagine that wasn't the case. What could be done, like if we could all agree, we put politics aside and say, you know what, Everything John Fetterman is saying makes total sense. We have to put that we do need a pathway for these people. It is a beautiful part of America. The reason why people come here in the first place is because it's the land of opportunity. But yet we also have to keep Venezuelan gangs and prisoners from coming across and murderers and gang members and cartel.
- [98:43]
B
Yeah. And we have to weed them out and we have to deport them. Absolutely. It's like this isn't.
- [98:50]
A
So how do you find them and how do you deport them?
- [98:53]
B
What's that?
- [98:54]
A
How do you find them and how do you deport them?
- [98:56]
B
Well, again, that's just like taking some kind of an inventory of like who's actually here on this and we have to figure out who's actually here on this. Those kinds of a thing. And there are going to be, you know, statistically that's a fact that out of X million people, for example, you know, it's a fact that statistically that some that thinks terrible things are going to be perpetrated by those things. And you know, statistically in some sense that native Americans not, you know, like not the American citizens, you know, and the criminality, if anything, the criminality is slightly higher, you know, in immigration communities as well. And some of the most pro. Pro American kinds of views that's projected in those kinds of communities, I mean, just like the community that brought my wife and their family to this country and that's kind of where we're at. And I think what we're seeing now in this cycle, there are more and more Latinos that are, you know, they're changing their views on some of those. They're like, hey, we do need, we do need a secure border on that. It's not necessarily assumed that because you are a member of a demographic that it has to. It's all. It's not necessarily consistent that it's going to be strong blue kinds of.
- [100:17]
A
Well, we all want safety, right? We all want safety. We all want to minimize crime.
- [100:23]
B
Everyone, of course. Yeah.
- [100:25]
A
So you want a secure border to keep criminals from coming over. That's the major, the major impediment, of.
- [100:34]
B
Course, and a secure border with more and more resources put on that and that makes it. But it's impossible to make sure that of course you're going to have members of the immigration community that are going to commit kinds of terrible kinds of crimes. And you're going to see and those are going to be talked about in the popular media as well. It's undeniable. And I mean, they're incredibly tragic. And it's a fact. And that's actually the truth of the American story. Immigration made our nation and there were hard truths and we have a hard truth right now and we need to have a secure border and we have to find a way to celebrate our immigrations and the kinds of what immigrations and the contributions that they made to this nation and also to weed out or to minimize the kinds of negative kinds of things and those kinds of resources because we can't possibly support an unchecked kind of a situation that we had. And I described that if you had 300,000 people showing up at the border, well, that's the side of Pittsburgh, you know, in a month, like, where are they going to go? You know, how are we going to give them an American dream already? Because they're all going to need to certain kinds of resources. And that should never be controversial. To say it's like we can't. That's not sustainable. And it's like if we want for every immigrant their American dream, it's impossible if it's unchecked like that. And it shouldn't be controversial to anyone politically.
- [102:02]
A
No, it's just reasonable. What you're saying is reasonable. What could be done and who do you think is going to do a better job to boost our economy?
- [102:15]
B
Well, I think it's undeniable, too. And you know, I'm certainly not going to discount some of the experience of some people that have been hit by eggs or other things or, you know, inflation. But right now, our economy right now, it's really, it's the world's envy throughout all those things by any metric. It's our unemployment, the stock market, and, you know, the hundreds of thousands of new jobs that are being created throughout all those things. And our inflation now has been kind of eased back into the check. But it's undeniable that there was an incredible inflation that hit certain kinds of families hard through those things. And I think that the next kinds of wave, whether it's AI or those other kinds of innovations, whether that it's green energy or those kinds of a thing that's going to continue to juice our economy.
- [103:14]
A
Well, AI is a big fear, right? Because AI is going to come with automation and automation is going to come with removing jobs.
- [103:21]
B
That is a challenge. On my walk here, well, I didn't walk here, but I saw a waymo a Waymo drove by me and I'm like, wait a minute, there's no one in there.
- [103:28]
A
No one in there.
- [103:29]
B
There was no one in that car.
- [103:30]
A
Did you see the.
- [103:31]
B
That's the first time traffic jam. Yeah, that's the first time I've ever seen a car and had literally no human was in that vehicle.
- [103:38]
A
And I wow, there's a bunch of them around Austin. And there was a traffic jam in Austin where they all got together at an intersection and no one knew what to do because all the robots were just like clogging up this intersection.
- [103:50]
B
Yeah, like a lot of that came from Pittsburgh too. And you would see those kinds of cars, but it always had a human in there. But that was the first time I saw like a robot car driving around in Austin. And yes, that creates. There's a lot of dislocation that's possible.
- [104:04]
A
And that's just the beginning. It's going to be shipping, it's going to be truckers. I mean that was a big issue with the longshoremen and the teamsters that were going to go on strike. Yeah. Please have some more water.
- [104:18]
B
Thank you. You're welcome.
- [104:20]
A
I mean that was, that was a big part of one of their demands was that, you know, they see what's going on in China, they see that they're using automation to completely control shipping yards. That it's all done with machines and computers now. And this is going to displace a lot of people. This is something that Andrew Yang talked about in depth when he was running for president because he was talking about the need for some kind of universal basic income to provide people with, you know, money and food and housing because jobs are going to be non existent in a lot of different sectors, a lot of different markets, a lot of different things that have traditionally been done by people. Specifically driving. Driving is going to be a gigantic one. It's all going to be done by computers.
- [105:06]
B
Yeah, well, I mean universal guaranteed income, I'm not sure. I don't know because you're going to have to have. That's a lot of resources to provide a lot of that. And that creates all kinds of other issues and dynamic. But I'm not afraid of technology. But it's also acknowledging that there are going to be kinds of changes in those and I'm a big believer in technology takes us into a more productive kinds of economy and they're going to help solve some of the challenges that we have in our society for those kinds of things. But I think we have to find the Perfect balance, that we don't stifle innovation. But we also have to remember that there are going to be people that might be left behind or they're going to struggle. I mean, hey, I was mayor for 13 days and I live in a community that was left behind by some of those things. And now the steel workers. The steel workers. I live across the street from the steel mill. And then it was announced that Nippon was buying U.S. steel. And basically all those steel workers were. They were done. You know, they used euphemism saying, well, we're going to honor current label. Excuse me, labor deals, but that's a euphemism saying as soon as that's up, you're done. And then that's going to be know thousands of union jobs. And if you think it's going to be easy for those men and women to pull down six figures or those kinds of an income, it's like, you know, how insensitive to say, well, hey, learn coding or whatever. It's like, well, hey, it's. No, it's not.
- [106:37]
A
Coding is useless anyway. When AI learning to code is going to be useless.
- [106:41]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [106:43]
A
That's how quickly things change.
- [106:45]
B
It's basically kind of like a fuck you, like, good luck thing.
- [106:48]
A
Well, it's such a, it's a dumb. You too. Because even when they said learn to code, like that was like, you know, they're saying, hey, you could learn to code 5.
- [106:56]
B
I'm not going to learn how to read.
- [106:57]
A
But here's the thing. Even if you did, that's how quickly things change. Even if you did. Now they're telling kids, learning coding in universities is not necessarily going to be a pathway to a job because all coding is going to be done by artificial intelligence.
- [107:10]
B
Yeah, well, but, but you know, I, they never even told us that they were going to sell that. And then I was a staffer sent me a picture on CNN saying that there's. They're selling ust. And I'm like that. And so I just went up on my roof and I had a video saying, hey, I promise I'm going to do anything I can to jam that up. And it's like, that's what we did and we work with the White House. And then suddenly all of that got jammed up. And suddenly I'm so surprised, Wink on wink. But Nippon found extra billions of dollars to make the kinds of upgrades to secure a future for those facilities in the Mon Valley. And to me, it's about following the union way of life. You know, to me, Steel is national security. And to me, if you turn your back on the working union families, I mean, it's like this. Those are really hard to replace, those things. And so for me, two things are true at the same time. You know, our economy has evolved, but when we have an opportunity to stand for the union way of life and we can't ever just outsource, you know, our steel industry like that, I refuse to do that. So. And that's why we're in that situation right now, that it's like, hey, it's like, that's what's true about some of these industries.
- [108:30]
A
One of the things that I was reading that was really crazy, and I'd love you to find out how much this is accurate. Jamie. One of the things was this guy was explaining how scrap metal in the United States is shipped to China, where they make things with it instead of making things here, because. And then we buy what they make with our scrap metal, which seems to me kind of insane. The death of American manufacturing is a significant problem that we face. And it was really highlighted during COVID right, where there wasn't ships coming in because everything was kind of locked down for a while. And people realized, like, hey, so much of what we need, particularly computer chips and medicine, so much of what we need is being made overseas.
- [109:20]
B
I agree. And then that's. And that's why, you know, Congress came together and President Biden led the whole chips. The whole chip chips, you know, legislation. And it's like, we gotta make our. We gotta make shit in America, right? And it's like, of course, the future is in those kinds of industries and those things. So we gotta. We have to protect the American economy for that thing. And that's why that's a bipartisan, kinds of a push for that. And Covid, that relieved a lot of vulnerabilities. It's like where a lot of these things come from or so. But going forward on that, it's like, we can never just surrender that American manufacturing. We can't assume, and we can't allow that to turn completely outsourced.
- [110:10]
A
No, it would be horrible, and it would be nice to bring things back. And it's also one of the things we've been discussing a lot is that so many of the things that we need today, particularly phones, are being made in an unethical way, like where we would never allow the working conditions that exist in these factories overseas, where American corporations are having their products made in a way that you would never legally be able to do in America. And yet they're doing this just to make more money and that.
- [110:41]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, let's also talk about rare, rare, rare.
- [110:45]
A
Rare earth minerals.
- [110:46]
B
I mean the Chinese have strategically just, you know, snapped up that markets. I mean, that's really, that's a significant security issue. We're going to have to address that. And thankfully we have identified some large deposits. I think it was Nevada. But rare earth kinds of minerals. I mean that's a serious security issue because the new economy and a lot of the new technology is going to depend on those kinds of incredibly, I think a lot of kinds of. Of minerals that some people have never even heard in their life have no idea what that even. Why that's important.
- [111:18]
A
Right. And then oil as well. I mean, we have significant oil reserves in the United States. Apparently we have more oil than other countries do. It's just a matter of accessing it. So are you in favor of drilling for oil and fracking and all these different things to.
- [111:32]
B
Yeah, 100%. And that's what's also true is especially what happened after, after Russia invaded and it was very clear that Europe had Russians kind of by the short hairs that a lot of their Europe was. They were dependent on some of the Russian gas.
- [111:54]
A
Right.
- [111:55]
B
That's a fact too. And you know, it's also what's true is that fossil fuels are part of our energy stack. You know, our energy has to evolve, whether that's hydrogen or nuclear. Now even nuclear, that conversation is reemerging. You know, I grew up in South Pennsylvania. Maybe you've heard of Three Island.
- [112:18]
A
Sure. Three Mile Island.
- [112:19]
B
I had to evacuate when that happened. I was nine. Yeah, I had to evacuate. Wow. Because they could have turned. You know, we could have never returned. I mean, that was really tense. Now they're reopening because Microsoft is going to buy the electricity because now that's going to be nuclear to run the data centers and those things. It's an important conversation. So if you are committed, and I think it's, you know, I do believe that you really have to make sure that nuclear is part of that conversation too because, you know, zero, zero kinds of emissions and that's dependable kinds of energy that doesn't depend on the wind or the sun. But ironically, some people pretend that you have to have a conversation but for the foreseeable future that fossil fuels are part of our stack. And for me, energy security, it's very important national security. I mean, if we can't power our economy, then it's a significant risk for our economy. And our American way and, and now I think we're a net exporter of energy. So I think that's a good thing. I think that's a great way to be and it's being honest about that and the path forward. And I think everything has to be on the table because we have to have a portfolio that produces the kinds of energy that we're going to need to power our economy.
- [113:50]
A
Another significant issue that a lot of people are concerned about is government interference in online censorship and what, what was exposed during the Twitter files that the FBI had contacted the original owners of Twitter and prevented that or instructed them that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation, was trying to get certain accounts banned that were talking about COVID vaccines and the dangers of side effects and what the actual research was showing and that this was a significant interference in the First Amendment and that these corporations that were running these social media companies were being directly influenced by the federal government and they were using this power to silence people from speaking out against certain things. This is very concerning to a lot of people, this idea that the government would infringe on our ability to be whistleblower to expose issues that have been hidden from the American people because of greed and money and politics. What are your thoughts on that?
- [115:00]
B
Well, of course, I mean, I'm a free speech kind of person and I think social media, it's kind of difficult to control. There's a difference between misinformation or just outright lying or it's an agenda of, of a foreign nation that's trying to sow all these sentiments and those kinds of things. And it's kind of difficult to police all those things. And it's a lot of. It's an ongoing kind of situation, but I'm always going to try to err on the side of free speech. And then there's incredibly more and more kinds of platforms. Just like when I'm on right now talking about these kinds of things and I'm not, you know, clutching my pearls if there's having conversations that I may or may not agree or disagree on what's being talked about those things, but I think people are also. There's also a level of responsibility to be, you know, to discern what you're hearing. It's like, I think that's true or I think that's trash or it's like those kinds of things. And just because always asking myself and what I'm read, is that just true or is there a perspective where is it coming from? Who's behind those kinds of a thing. So, I mean, it's a difficult kind. What's the appropriate kind of balance? But it's absolutely. It's also a fact that there are bad actors behind some of those kinds of conversations or some of those kinds of misinformation as well, too. And Absolutely. Incitement, incitement is not free speech and encouraging people for violence or those kinds of a thing. I mean, it's a dangerous. It's a balance.
- [116:41]
A
It's dangerous. Yeah. And. But what the fear is that the government was interfering when you had 51 former intelligence agents that were testifying that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation, when it seems pretty clear that they knew that to not be true and that Twitter actually listened to these people and they did block that. And it did probably have a significant impact on the 2020 election.
- [117:06]
B
Yeah, well, but the other thing that had a significant impact was in 2020, I forget his name, but he had to investigate, you know, Clinton's about the Comey. Yeah. Like, you know, two weeks out. That was like the ultimate October Surprise is what.
- [117:21]
A
Right.
- [117:22]
B
And that undeniable. That had a significant impact as well, too.
- [117:25]
A
That was a 2016.
- [117:26]
B
Right. Yeah, it absolutely. It absolutely did as well, too. So, I mean, that's why there's both sides and they have agendas to suppress some kinds of a thing or to bring something to the front. And it's undeniable that it can have an impact on that as well, too. I never went down either of those rabbit holes, whether it was the Clinton emails or if it was the Hunter Biden's kind of laptop. But it hasn't really changed overall, the dynamic that in our cycles, the last three cycles, it's about, for me, it's about a referendum on what we want. A vision for America. Is it a Trump kinds of a vision or do we have an alternative? And I've always been very clear it's going to be incredibly close and it's going to be incredibly, at times, very divisive. And here we are now and it's still back to a coin toss. And I've always predicted that it would be even back to 2016, because we're really going to have a lot settled out before this election. It's going to take America in a very two stark and distinctive kinds of directions.
- [118:29]
A
What do you think about Elon Musk's idea of creating a government efficiency agency?
- [118:37]
B
Well, hey, I flagged when Musk got involved. I flagged that anyone can look online I can say that it's like, well, you know, endorsements and surrogacy doesn't really amount for much. It doesn't count for much a lot and sometimes. But I mean that was a significant. And he's getting involved and he's showing up at those kinds of events. I mean, in some sense I've said this publicly, that he's even a bigger kinds of star than Trump can be. And for some people in Pennsylvania, that's Tony Stark. He's involved in undeniably kinds of important things like SpaceX or he was one of the original charter, he was on the charter of Open ia. He was involved in that too. So I mean, that's significant and I don't agree with some of his views on politics, but it's undeniable that he can move the needle in some sense of convince some people that it's like, hey, if he says that he's the right choice for president President, that that's gonna, that's gonna, that's gonna resonate in some, in some circles in Pennsylvania. And I've warned that and acknowledging it, it's just like that, it's just like, hey, I know people and they admire him and you may not agree with his politics, but you really, it's impossible to ignore that he is going to have a, an impact on that.
- [120:11]
A
Yeah, but what do you think about the idea of trying to make the government more efficient and that this hasn't been audited before?
- [120:18]
B
And of course, hey, I'm open to any kinds of ideas and all those kinds of a thing. On all of that, one side doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas or important kinds of issues that are matter to them. And it's like the choices and the kinds of things and how he's chosen to participate, especially very personally in Pennsylvania, I'm like, hey, here's where we are. That's part of the dynamic here. You know, calling it out and acknowledging that I'm not moving against that, I'm not criticizing whatever. It's just like, hey, it's happening. So. And that I think that's part of why things continue to get tighter. And that's kind of here where we are.
- [121:02]
A
Well, I think what a lot of people are excited about with Trump is this possibility of change. The Elon Musk edition is one of them. RFK Jr. Is another one. This idea of making America healthy again, removing additives from foods that have shown to be toxic, they're illegal in other countries. I mean, this is I think a significant issue. That shouldn't be a partisan issue. This should be something that we all should be concerned with. Why do we have ingredients in our food that is illegal in a bunch of European countries? Because they found out that these things are dangerous.
- [121:35]
B
I agree. Go to McDonald's in the UK the French fries has three ingredients. Potatoes, salt and I think maybe oil. Look at what's in America side on that. It's much different. I support that. But if anything, if anything more of and I know your city that we're in now, Austin, that has an amazing food kinds of scene and again, if anything more of the crunchy, more liberal side. We're on part of the whole organic kinds of a thing and more impurity and things. I don't think that's an issue and honestly I don't think that's going to be the kind of mantle that somebody like RFK Jr. That's not his. So I think having a more pure and safe and abundant kinds of food in our country, I absolutely support that. And I'm selective. Would I feed, I feed my children. I mean when we were, you know, when I was a kid it was like Velveeta, you know, like hey now we have real cheese. Or did you ever have like ecto cooler like that green like antifreeze kind of color of hi C. And some of the kinds of foods that we had when I was a kid that would be unthinkable kinds and now and I think, I think the quality of our food and kinds of more impure. I think that's, that's been an ongoing conversation and organic can't become elitist. It can't be. It can't be too expensive. And I fully support making it more and more pure and more safe on that and more available. And I would absolutely. I would celebrate if I could buy the same French fries that you get in the UK that it's like I think there should if you don't need more than three ingredients.
- [123:19]
A
I have a buddy of mine who lives in Australia and he came over to America and he loves quarter pounders in Australia because he said quarter pounders in Australia it's grass fed meat that's just fried with cheese in a bun. And he said he got a quarter pounder over here. He's like what the fuck is this? He said it tastes like shit. It was just, it was bland and it didn't.
- [123:42]
B
Was it a royal with cheese? Yeah.
- [123:44]
A
I don't know what they call it Australia, but he said it's grass fed beef. You get like you know, they're not even feeding their cows grain.
- [123:52]
B
Well, you know, a lot of the grass fed beef in our nation are coming from Australia.
- [123:59]
A
I mean, it's crazy.
- [124:00]
B
Yeah, that's a fact. And I'm very pro, pro American rancher.
- [124:05]
A
Well, not only that, it's really fucked up because you could make it a product of America if you butcher it. So if you import cattle from Australia, say, and then you bring it to America and then you cut it up and then package it, because you've cut it up and packaged it, it's now a product of America. So you could write that on the label. You know, I had Will Harris, who runs White Oak Pastures, which is a regenerative farm. This guy spent 20 years and untold dollars changing an industrial farm that his family had and turning it into a regenerative farm. And in doing so provided people with a much more natural and healthy choice. And he's also done a great job of exposing these practices.
- [124:54]
B
Yeah, I mean, grass fed beef, I mean, I think that's very, in some sense, I mean, that absolutely supports better health. I mean, I followed before he even appeared on your podcast. Sean Baker. Yeah, like carnivore and even those kinds of insights helped me personally and allowed me to kind of drop some weight through all those things. And it's like that's an important conversation too. It's like, but Democrats, some people think that we're declared a war on hamburgers and, and beef. But we're definitely going to lose that. They're going to lose that if that really becomes part of that.
- [125:39]
A
I don't think that's Democrats. I think that's very wealthy people that have a financial interest in feeding people fake meat. That's what I think it is. And I think they've captured the system.
- [125:49]
B
I said, it pains me to agree with DeSantis because they passed the ban in that in Florida. It pains me to agree with him. But it's like, I mean, I would never feed, I would never feed that slop to my kids when you can buy, you know, quality American grass fed American beef. Like, I mean, that's, that's what I purchased that. I use that at Costco. I buy the three pack of it. And my oldest son, he knows how to prepare like his own rib eye and he's, you know, makes that a part of, of like a, I think it's like a healthy kinds of diet.
- [126:28]
A
Yeah, for sure. What other issues do you think we should discuss before we wrap this up? Is there anything else that's on your mind that you think is significant that needs to be discussed.
- [126:40]
B
Oh, before you wrap up. Well, I think we have a situation, whether it's the situation on Israel or those. There's a lot happening about the election right now, but it's really a strange place in our nation right now. But I promise you it's going to be depending on whenever people hear this conversation, our world's going to be about to change or maybe has changed. And so I just hope, though, I just hope, though, that we're going to be able to respond in a way for an ordeal, kinds of transfer of power, and we are going to be heading into a more peaceful and a more productive and collaborative kind of direction throughout that. But we're in an incredibly divisible place right now, and I just want to be part of a conversation to make sure that we can be more constructive. But it's. Right now we're kind of. It's a difficult place right now, and we're coming down to a coin toss election.
- [127:45]
A
Yeah, I agree. I hope we can all relax and work together cooperatively. Yeah. Well, listen, man, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time to come here and talk. It's been great to get to know you and have a conversation with you.
- [128:03]
B
Hey, well, hey, thank you for having. It's. It's. As a fan, it's great to kind of visit and so thanks for having me.
- [128:10]
A
My pleasure. All right. Best of luck to you. Thank you. All right, bye, everybody.