#2243 - Julian Lennon

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2243 - Julian Lennon

Release Date: December 16, 2024
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Julian Lennon

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Introduction

In episode #2243 of The Joe Rogan Experience, Joe Rogan engages in an in-depth conversation with Julian Lennon, exploring a wide range of topics from personal health challenges to Julian's passion for photography and his philanthropic endeavors. The discussion seamlessly weaves through Julian's experiences, his perspectives on modern science, and reflections on life and creativity.

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Personal Health and Wellness

Health Scares and Preventative Measures
Julian begins by sharing a personal health scare related to a birthmark and a subsequent cancer diagnosis. He recounts his experience with dermatologists and the emotional impact of nearly facing a cancerous condition.

"I went completely numb at that point and freaked out because I just thought, what does this mean in the bigger picture?"
[00:20] Julian Lennon

They discuss the importance of regular health checkups and proactive measures to ensure longevity.

"I do go for the proper checkup like twice a year, you know, just on every front, just to make sure I'm gonna be around, because I like living."
[03:03] Julian Lennon

Exercise and Mental Health
The conversation shifts to Julian's exercise routine, emphasizing the benefits of walking and power walking for both physical and mental health. Julian opens up about his struggles with depression and anxiety, highlighting how physical activity and biking help him manage these challenges.

"I've also, in my time, dealt with a fair amount of depression as well, and anxiety. I get pretty anxious still, even, you know, coming here today."
[04:28] Julian Lennon

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The Role of Nature and Mindfulness

Connection with Nature
Julian expresses a deep appreciation for nature, recounting experiences like power walking by the sea and observing wildlife. He emphasizes the therapeutic effects of being outdoors and the importance of disconnecting from the digital world.

"There's a purity to that, that especially no phones, no computer, no screens, no nothing. Just human beings."
[157:02] Julian Lennon

Mindfulness and Presence
Both hosts touch upon the significance of being present in the moment, sharing anecdotes about peaceful interactions and the profound impact of simple, mindful experiences.

"It's about that little moment of appreciation here and now. Thank you very much. And how that can be beyond beneficial to you."
[155:56] Julian Lennon

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Photography and Artistic Expression

Journey into Photography
Julian delves into his passion for photography, explaining how spontaneous moments during his travels inspired him to capture fleeting instances. He describes his transition from casual photo-taking to professional exhibitions, highlighting the emotional and technical aspects of his work.

"I started taking pictures of clouds. And then. And I knew a few rock and rollers, so I started taking pictures of those, too."
[78:04] Julian Lennon

Exhibitions and Recognition
He narrates his first exhibition at the Morrison Hotel Gallery in New York, detailing the anxiety and eventual success that encouraged him to pursue photography further. Julian mentions his latest exhibition in Venice, showcasing over 120,000 photos that reflect his travels and humanitarian efforts.

"I've had three major. No, four. It's like the Spanish Inquisition."
[33:51] Julian Lennon

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Philanthropy and Indigenous Cultures

White Feather Foundation
Julian discusses the origins and mission of his White Feather Foundation, which focuses on supporting indigenous tribes worldwide. He shares heartfelt stories from his interactions with various communities, emphasizing the foundation's role in education, health, and cultural preservation.

"It's about the white feather. It's about the spirit of the ancestors and preserving the culture."
[60:47] Julian Lennon

Documentary Work He recounts creating the documentary Whale Dreamers Independent, which won several International Independent Film Awards. The film highlights the struggles and resilience of indigenous peoples, aiming to raise awareness and support for their causes.

"We made a documentary called Whale Dreamers Independent. We won about eight International Independent Film Awards."
[65:28] Julian Lennon

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Reflections on Modern Science and Technology

Quantum Computing and the Multiverse
The discussion takes a turn towards advanced scientific concepts, with Julian expressing fascination and apprehension about quantum computing and its potential implications for our understanding of the multiverse.

"They're pulling answers from different universes simultaneously. They don't even completely understand how this is working."
[07:12] Julian Lennon

Impact of Technological Advancements
Julian shares his thoughts on how technological breakthroughs, like quantum computing, might transcend human comprehension and alter the fabric of reality as we know it. He ponders the ethical and existential questions that arise from such advancements.

"It's an evolving scientific field that even people working on it don't fully understand."
[131:25] Julian Lennon

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Life Experiences and Personal Growth

Life in Monaco and Moving Forward
Julian reflects on his life in Monaco, describing it as a transient and tax-friendly haven for the wealthy. He talks about his ongoing relocation to a more serene environment, seeking balance between urban excitement and natural tranquility.

"It's an amazing time to be alive."
[135:42] Julian Lennon

Overcoming Addiction and Mental Health
He opens up about his battle with smoking, the challenges of quitting cold turkey, and the resulting depression. Julian emphasizes the importance of mental resilience and the support from friends during his journey towards better health.

"I quit cold turkey because I wanted to be. I wanted to tell myself I couldn't smoke, not for you to tell me I couldn't smoke."
[99:24] Julian Lennon

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Creativity and Artistic Philosophy

Music and Artistic Expression
Julian discusses his music career, the creative process behind his albums, and the pressure of living up to his father's legacy. He shares insights into his approach to songwriting and performing, highlighting the balance between honoring his heritage and forging his own identity.

"I was playing about how these programs have been pushing narratives and censorship complexes."
[14:33] Julian Lennon

Balancing Art and Technology
He contemplates the intersection of art and technology, debating whether creative expression becomes diluted or enhanced in an increasingly digital world. Julian advocates for maintaining authenticity and capturing genuine human experiences through his work.

"This is the problem with that is if you don't speak up and if no one reacted to..."
[14:33] Julian Lennon

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Closing Thoughts

Hope and Future Outlook
Julian concludes with a message of hope, stressing the importance of preserving human connections, supporting each other, and valuing the natural world amidst technological and societal changes. He underscores the role of art and philanthropy in fostering a better future.

"I have a feeling that the next leap of change that's going to happen with human beings is going to be technologically driven and, and monumental."
[158:01] Julian Lennon

Final Reflections
Joe and Julian reflect on the complexities of modern life, the balance between embracing technology and staying connected to nature, and the continuous journey of personal and collective growth.

"It was a beautiful, peaceful moment that I just experienced with my dog."
[117:27] Julian Lennon

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Book Mention:
Julian Lennon promotes his photography book, Life's Fragile Moments, a coffee table-sized collection showcasing over 120,000 photographs from his travels and humanitarian work. The book is praised for its stunning visual storytelling and emotional depth.

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Note: This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Joe Rogan and Julian Lennon, highlighting key discussions, personal anecdotes, and insightful reflections shared throughout the podcast episode.

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan Podcast.

[B]

Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

[A]

Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by.

[B]

Night, all day, I go to see this dermatologist.

[A]

Oh, yeah, almost skin.

[B]

Yeah, a little excision here because it had been bothering me a bit. And a couple of years ago, I had a bit of a cancer scare on my head because I have. I have a birthmark here that you don't really see. And there was a mole there. And I kept. As my hair got a little thinner, I would. I would use a comb, and it caught it one time and it opened it up, and so I kind of kept picking at it when it became a scab. And I kept picking over the course of, like, six months. And then I went to see this dermatologist for the first time in la and I said, yeah, I've got a little bit of a. You know, I been trying not to scratch it now, but I'm a bit worried about it. It's been like six months of me being an idiot because it just was really irritable. And so she cut it out and sent it off. And I was at a pretty serious meeting with a whole bunch of people, and she called me up at the end of it and said, listen, I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's cancerous. You know, we got to cut it out, we've got to get it. And, yeah, I just went completely numb at that point and freaked out because I just thought, what does this mean in the bigger picture? And a lot of friends that have passed from cancer, various kinds over the years. And so it really did freak me out. Anyway, I got the all clear. It was cleaned out. And so just anything that just looks, looks or feels a little odd. There was something I was. I'd been scratching here a bit and something here as well. So she just did a little cutting. And no doubt I'll hear from her in a few days once she gets the results.

[A]

That's scary because it was in a spot that you don't check. You know, it's covered in hair. You don't know what's going on back there.

[B]

Yeah, but it was because of the birthmark. And, you know, I just. I just kept on the thinning, thinner hair, and so I just kept, you know, brushing it with a comb and it caught it and then it scabbed and then I. It became itchy. And so I stepped. Kept scratching it, you know, pulling it off like a kid, you know, as you do, as you just. Anyway, I'm. I'm happy to Be here. One piece for the moment. You know, I got one of those.

[A]

Comprehensive blood panel screens for cancer recently. And then, you know, you wait a while for the results and you're like, geez, like, what if I'm one of those people?

[B]

I. Yeah, I have anything. But, yeah, I have the. I have. You know, I go for a. The proper checkup like twice a year, you know, just on every front, just to make sure I'm gonna be around, because I like living. I want to be around for a long time. That's good for sure.

[A]

Yeah. It's a weird thing because, you know, how old do you know?

[B]

61.

[A]

Yeah. I'm 57. And we're getting up there, fella.

[B]

I don't like to think about it.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I'm completely in denial. Absolutely. I refuse, you know, because I just remember seeing my uncles, you know, on my mother's side. What, they were like in their 50s alone, you know, and they'd be sitting there with a big belly in front of the TV with, you know, a couple of packets of cigarettes and drinking tea or beer and watching the TV all day. And that was their life, in their 50s and 60s. Until they had a heart attack and died. And I went, no, I'm not doing that one. And I've just always been. Not that I'm a health freak in any way, shape or form, but I certainly, you know, my regime is try to eat as healthy as you can and do a bit of power walking a couple of times a week.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

And that does the trick for me.

[A]

Nothing wrong with that.

[B]

No.

[A]

Walking is one of the best forms of exercise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you can get it in every day, you'll be much healthier than if you don't.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's not hard to do.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

Listen to a book on tape, go for a stroll.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. It's great for the body.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You don't have to fucking kill yourself.

[B]

No. And I. I've also, in my time, dealt with a fair amount of depression as well, and anxiety. I get pretty anxious still, even, you know, coming here today, I was a bit brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. So I went for a nice little power walk around the. Whatever the lake is down there. The one where the bats are.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I had no idea.

[A]

Have you seen them come out?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, it's cool.

[B]

I had no idea. I'd never even heard of it.

[A]

It's really cool.

[B]

The biggest bat population in the world. That's true. That's what they're saying.

[A]

I don't know if that's true. I think the biggest bat population in the world is in Africa, I would believe.

[B]

Oh, the Amazon.

[A]

But yeah, I think it's a really large population though. And it's cool to see they come out. That's what it looks like when they come out.

[B]

Yeah, no, they. They claim there's. There's signage down there.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. That says it's the biggest bat population in the world.

[A]

Maybe it's a specific kind of bat.

[B]

I don't know. Is this at sunset that this happens?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Right at night time. It's really cool. It's very fun to watch. And you hear them if you go under the bridge, like if you walk on here.

[B]

Yeah, I was there today, you know, I didn't hear that.

[A]

Yeah, you can hear me there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're just chilling. It's weird. But they're responsible for keeping the mosquito population down.

[B]

Is that what.

[A]

Yeah, they do a great job, those little suckers.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

They care. Take care of the mosquitoes.

[B]

Mosquitoes, Yeah. I don't. What purpose do they have?

[A]

Really Spreading horrible diseases.

[B]

Yeah. Sucking blood and aubergines. I don't understand the OPA jeans either.

[A]

Well, you know, they tried to develop a genetically modified mosquito that was going to attack the other mosquitoes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but that horror movie type, you know, like, I hear about that, I'm like, okay, and what happens then? Like whenever you start monkeying around nature.

[B]

In that regard and so nothing came of it then.

[A]

I don't know what's been done with that. I don't know. It's like these people are doing these things and it can affect all of us. And you, you know, just read about it on the Internet and if it wasn't for the Internet, you wouldn't even know they were doing it. It's like, are you sure this is going to be okay in the long run? Like, what's the potential chances for mutations? Like, what would happens if they carry a very unique disease that, you know, it's.

[B]

Well, you know, the scary thing is we have no idea what half of these people are up to.

[A]

No, we don't.

[B]

Covid being an example.

[A]

Yeah, Perfect example. Do you see what happened in Australia yesterday? There was a laboratory that lost track of. Oh, I put it on Twitter. Lost track of like a bunch of different, like, really serious diseases.

[B]

How does that happen?

[A]

Someone left the door open.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I went once, me and my friend Duncan, we went once to the lab in Galveston, Texas, the Center for Disease Control. I believe the organization has this enormous bio lab down in Galveston where they take care of like, some of the most dangerous and deadly viruses in the world. So they have like this incredible filtration system and everybody's wearing space suits and they're walking and we're in there going, what are you guys doing? Hundreds of vials of deadly viruses have gone missing from a laboratory. And scientists warn they could be weaponized. So what are 100 vials of henda virus, 2 vials of hantavirus, 223 vials of lysa virus, all of which are extremely deadly for humans.

[B]

And of course, I love it when the media says, you know, something along the lines of the. Of the end of that statement that could be weaponized. So that's great. Now the freaks are going to go and try and find that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's. You know, we got into this mess in the first place because. And this has now been confirmed, that they were working on these viruses in this laboratory and it got released and that these viruses had been created through gain of function research. So these goofballs are down there working on viruses, making them more infectious to humans. And you would say, well, why are they doing that? Well, surely they're doing that so they can study them and they can cure them. They can make sure that we don't get sick.

[B]

Is that the logic?

[A]

That's the logic. But they didn't have a cure for it. Lyssavirus is rabies. Oh, great. Lyssavirus are responsible for rabies, which is arguably the deadliest encephalotic virus known. A disease known. The prototype rabies. Less of Lysa virus thought to be able to infect all terrestrial mammals. Yay. God, what a good thing to just have laying around. I mean, that's like the opening of 28 days later, right?

[B]

Yeah, that. Yeah. No, there's a new one.

[A]

Have you seen the trailer for the new one? There's a new one 28 years later.

[B]

No. Come on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Cillian Murphy's back. Let's go.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm in. Count me in.

[A]

That's the greatest Z. Oh, here it is. It's the greatest zombie movie of all time for sure.

[B]

What's going on? Sit still, keep quiet and do not move from the spot. 7, 6. 11. 5, 9 and 20 miles today. 4, 11, 17, 32.

[A]

The day before.

[B]

Boot, boot, boot.

[A]

Boots moving up and down again.

[B]

There's no discharge in the war.

[A]

Don't, don't, don't.

[B]

It's all shut on an iPhone.

[A]

Look at what's in front of you.

[B]

What they said.

[A]

I mean, not with their lenses, but moving up and down again. Men, men, men, men, men.

[B]

Go mad with watching them.

[A]

There's no discharge in the war. If your eyes drop, they will get the top of you. Who.

[B]

Moving up and down again.

[A]

There's no discharge in the wall. I was gonna stop there. Okay.

[B]

Jeez. I woke up relatively calm and peaceful this morning.

[A]

A little bit of pre podcast anxiety and now you're worried about the end of the world. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Thank you very much. Thank you. I didn't know what to expect, but.

[A]

Now I. I'm terrified of these eggheads messing around with all these things. I really am. Because it seems like what we know now is that there wasn't a ton of oversight. They, they shipped, they. They sort of went with the. So the NIH funds the EcoHealth Alliance. The EcoHealth alliance funds the Wuhan Lab. The Wuhan Lab, which has had many safety violations, including like, I think a year before the leak. And then it gets out. And then they all lie, and then they all trade emails back and forth where they're talking about the lie and they go in front of Congress and they lie. And now there's. They're talking about giving Fauci a mass pardon, a preemptive pardon, so he doesn't.

[B]

Get charged with the Trump.

[A]

It's a whole thing is. And then there's another one today where the Biden administration is keeping the emergency classification of COVID to 2029 so that they can avoid being attacked for the Emergency Use Authorization Act. It's so creepy stuff because there's money. It's all money, right? There's money involved in this. These people that are working on viruses. Well, the way to get funding is you have to work on viruses. So whether or not. I don't think they're evil people, but I think these people, this is what they studied in college, this is what they went to university for, and now they're studying it. And what's the best way to study it? You gotta actually have to have funding. You have to have a lab and you start doing it. And so who do you do it for? Well, you do it for the Defense Department. You're like, because they want to work on weaponizing viruses. And this is a real thing. And this is one of.

[B]

That's one of the scariest things.

[A]

Terrifying. I did a television show once where we talked to this guy from Russia and from former Soviet Union where he was talking about how they had literally like giant vats of anthrax. They had enough anthrax to literally kill like every human being in America. And that they were working on viruses and all these deadly diseases.

[B]

To be honest with you, I'm quite surprised we're still here. It's pretty shocking with what's already happened and what the potentials are. It's staggering.

[A]

Well, if you think about all the things that we've gone through where we just barely missed a total disaster, the Cuban Missile crisis. And then there was the one time where there was an. They thought that the United States had launched a missile at Russia and they were very close to responding. It was just a glitch. And one guy, just one clear headed, decided not to launch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is in the 60s.

[B]

Yeah. Right. This is all.

[A]

It's so terrifying.

[B]

Yeah. We're so close all the time. Really. That's why one should just try and have a happy life wherever you can. That's for sure.

[A]

The problem with that is if you don't speak up and if no one reacted to any of this COVID 19 stuff, no one reacted to the Orwellian censorship complex that was established to try to silence people who are critical of the narrative that they were pushing.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We would all be like, you kind of have to pay attention now. Unfortunately, I don't want to.

[B]

No, agree. I want to just have fun, live.

[A]

My life, be with my family and my friends, of course, enjoy myself. We all do.

[B]

But it's. It's good to be aware. No question about that. And.

[A]

But does that. There's also this part of me that goes, yeah, but this is what, this is what the universe provides you with. The universe provides you with this very unique balance of good and evil. And the evil exists to appreciate the good and to motivate the good.

[B]

No question.

[A]

There's always going to be both. It just seems like there's always going to. Until we reach some enlightenment. Till Jesus comes back. Till the aliens land.

[B]

It's that thing called balance, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to do the balancing act as best as you can.

[A]

Yeah. What do you do? Like, what's your balancing routine like if you feel like you're getting a little sideways.

[B]

I hate that. Or. But it's back to getting out into the fresh air and walking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean that really does. Or even photography, you know, just being. Actually my number one go to is I'm a biker. I've been on motorcycles since I was like in my early teens. So to blow the, to really blow the cobwebs out. It's kind of getting on the bike and just riding somewhere I've never been before. I'll just look at a map and go, that looks interesting. And I just go. And that looks like so fun.

[A]

If I was bulletproof and made out of metal.

[B]

Have you scared of motorcycles really? Well, it's the other people, this thing. That's exactly right, you know. Yeah, but you have to, I, I believe you have to have a heightened awareness to, to be a biker and stuff.

[A]

Most certainly. Do you have a loud bike so people could hear it at least.

[B]

Yeah, I've had a few loud ones in like a Harley. I, I used to have Harley. I, at the moment I ride a Triumph, a couple of Triumphs. Oh, nice one. That looks like an old school but actually works. And then I thought I was never going to be one of those guys that ever kind of rode one of those 50s. No, the sort of adventure bikes, you.

[A]

Know, with like the saddles with the.

[B]

Yeah, kind of. Yeah, but the relative half faring. But, but I, when I go for a ride and these random rides, you know, I can be gone up in the mountains for, with no signal for three and a half, four hours, you know. And there has been an occasion or several in the past where without a signal the bike has had problems. And it gets pretty scary when you're in the wilderness and you've got no backup plan. I had an oil leak with a brand new bike and no signal and I literally rolling down any hill I could just to survive, make it to whatever little village I could find in the middle of nowhere.

[A]

Where were you?

[B]

I was in France. Oh, wow. So I tend to go up in the wilds back there. And so I decided also my backside after three and a half hours on one of the older style bikes is pretty painful. So I just happened to look at one of the Triumph adventure bikes and.

[A]

What do they look like? Can you tell us? Is that it?

[B]

So that's, that's what my old bike looks like. That's, that's actually my old bike with my old friend riding it. And that's the one where your ass kills after a couple of hours. But so, yeah, those are the kind of views I get. Those are in the middle of nowhere.

[A]

Are these your photographs?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are just quickies on my phone. Just the places I find myself in, in the middle of nowhere. I mean, stunning, stunning, stunning places. And they're not far from, from where I am on the coast and they're kind of on the border with Italy, so it's pretty unique stuff.

[A]

Where do you live?

[B]

I, I officially live in Monaco.

[A]

Oh, wow. I was just there. Yeah, I was there last summer. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[A]

Well, it's really beautiful.

[B]

It's. It's not a bad place to.

[A]

Weird spot.

[B]

It's a weird spot.

[A]

What's going on here? Why is everybody stacked up in apartments?

[B]

It's very transient. You know, people come and go for whatever reason that they do. And I mean, most people, like myself, you know, we have, we have a kind of summer house getaway so you can go breathe on the weekends.

[A]

Isn't it kind of a tax sheltery place too?

[B]

Oh, very much so, yeah. Yeah. No, a lot of real rich folks go there. Yeah. Oh, for sure, their cash. But there's a few new places around the world that offer that kind of possibility.

[A]

Oh, really? Like where else?

[B]

Well, Dubai's offering certain incentives now. Portugal. Certain incentives?

[A]

Yeah. Dubai has like no income tax. Right.

[B]

I've never been there personally.

[A]

Is that the fact? Is that a fact?

[B]

I think it is. I'm not 100 sure, but I have.

[A]

A friend who just moved to Dubai. He's American and he's a filmmaker and he says, I feel so safe.

[B]

Yeah, that, well, that's one element of it. There's no crime as long as you're not doing anything.

[A]

He said you could leave a Rolex on the ground.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Someone will pick it up and turn it to the police.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

[A]

UAE does not levy income tax on individuals. However, it levies a 5% value added tax on the purchase of goods. And that's pretty reasonable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Levied at each stage of the supply chain and ultimately born to the end consumer.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Fairly reasonable.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So although I, it's never inspired me so far anyway.

[A]

Well, there's a lot of like wild restrictions over there.

[B]

Oh yeah. And I, I like a bit of character with where I am, you know, and I, you know, one of the, one of the pleasures I find is, number one, I'm a biker, so I get to ride around a lot. I'm not really a Beach Gu. After 20 minutes I start twitching. I need to do something. It's true. But I'm also a foodie as well. So, you know, Monaco's half an hour away from Italy and there's a, there's actually a big crossover in the restaurants between French and Italian food. And then you have places like the island of Corsica, which is French. Now it's been through the mill a few times. It was English at one point, it was Italian at one point. It's I think a few other nations too. But I. And I could see it from where I was. You can actually see the outline of Corsica from the south of France and from Monaco in certain locations. And I'd seen it for 25, 30 years and had never been. And a couple of years ago I decided with a friend to hop in. I've got a little mini convertible and that's my little run around and decided to get the ferry, which is about six hours across and drive, you know, with no bookings, no nothing and just see if there was a hotel available and drove around the whole island in 10 days. And it was one of the most magical places I've ever, ever been to. It's like 10 countries on one island. The scenery is mind blowing and the south of it is very much like the Caribbean. Crystal clear, turquoise blue waters. But the food again is this combination of the best of Italian and the best of French and just the freshest of the freshest of the fresh. And I've only been down there about two or three times because this was only a few years ago and I couldn't believe that it's. And here's the other thing, okay, the ferry, six hours, but you can get on what they call a vomit comet. It's like a very short flight. You know, you could be there in the south of Kuska from, from nice airport in 45 minutes. And it's a different world. It's an entirely stunning, gorgeous different world with again, scenery unlike I've ever seen before. And for such a small island, which you can. Yeah, oh yeah. I mean it's just insanely, insanely beautiful. And that's Bonifacio. Yeah, they, you know, they're renowned for being. They can be a bit of a, you know, tough nuts.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

Yeah, if they don't like you, if you piss him off, excuse my French, they'll blow up your house. I mean there was a report a couple of years ago that this guy's house, the. He was causing some trouble and they didn't want him around and they blew up, blew up his house. He set it on fire and blew it up. I'm serious.

[A]

Well, I guess if you live in a small place like that, that's really amazing. You're probably very protective of someone coming along and ruining.

[B]

They're exactly like that. I mean if you don't.

[A]

I get that.

[B]

If you don't respect them Yeah, I get that. Yeah.

[A]

No, whenever people say, like, if you go to France, they're very rude.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

I've gone to France. I didn't think they were rude, you know, but I get how there's some Americans, like, hopping right off the cruise ship that are just fat and stupid.

[B]

There's just, you know, I think if you're not prepared to be warm and friendly on the approach and treat them with the respect that they deserve in their own country.

[A]

Treat like you're a visitor.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, don't order them around. Don't tell them what to do. And. And, you know, even though, you know, they think it's quite funny that you try and speak their language. I mean, yeah, I. I can understand French pretty well and Italian and a few other things, but, you know, God help me if I try and speak it, because they'll just. They don't laugh at you, but they'll speak back to you in English, you know?

[A]

Right. That's the wonderful thing about English is that.

[B]

But at least make the effort, is what I'm saying.

[A]

Sure. You know, show them that you're.

[B]

You're trying. Yeah. And then they kind of got. Yeah, say that. Just. Thank you alone, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Don't just order them around, which I've seen many people do, and it's. It's a bit shocking.

[A]

Say a few things. Just let them know that you're. You're trying.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

I go to Italy. I try to go to Italy every year. We. Me and my family, we've. We go there every year and I love it. It's just.

[B]

So what do you.

[A]

My favorite place is Ravello.

[B]

Where is that?

[A]

Ravello's on the Amalfi coast.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

It's just so, so beautiful. But I've liked Rome, too. It's a little touristy. The problem with Rome is it's overcrowded and there's a lot of touristy going on.

[B]

Yeah. Rome is not my favorite. The reason why it's so appealing to me is because my. Actually, my first stepfather was Italian. Roberto Bassanini. That's pretty Italian. Oh, he was very Italian. And he was the black sheep of the family. He was the naughty boy. And he was more like an older brother to me, married to Mum, after Dad, after John and his family were involved in kind of hotels and restaurants from. Also London in the heyday of Italian restaurants, it was like the 70s. And so they had a few small hotels in different areas. And so whenever I wasn't at school in London at that, you know, or England at that time. We'd take these little trips to, you know, Cortina or above Milan. There's a little town called Fopolo that I used to go, unknown by most tourists, locals to go skiing in the winter, or Pesaro, which was on the east coast, on for summer holidays. So, you know, I spent a lot of time there growing up from the age of 5, 6, 7. She was only with him for about three or four years, but we stayed in touch, you know, and I used to go and visit him all the time because he was a laugh, you know. Of course, his. Sadly, his lifestyle style killed him with a couple of heart attacks at the end of everything.

[A]

It's usually how it goes when you're having a good time.

[B]

Yeah, he was having too much of a good time, I'm afraid. But I miss him dearly. He certainly was, you know, one of those characters that you just. Yeah. You admired.

[A]

When I go to Italy, it feels like almost immediately you have, like a decrease in blood pressure. Yes, like almost immediately.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like the vibe of the people and the way they live is just relax.

[B]

They can be a bit stressed sometimes, though, with the shouting at each other and the.

[A]

Yeah, but even then, it doesn't seem like shouting, like American shouting leads to violence.

[B]

Yes, this is true.

[A]

I hear American shouting. I'm like, let's get the out of here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, great.

[A]

I hear Italian shouting. Right, what happened? Someone in the kitchen fuck up? Like, what went wrong?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I. I don't want to sound pompous, but it does sound pompous. That, you know, I. If I have friends come over from the States or London and, you know, I'll say, do you fancy it, you know, getting some Italian tonight? And we'll get in the car and we'll be on the freeway or the motorway over there and they go. They'll be saying, where the f are we going? You know, I'm going for Italian. And there's a little town about an hour away from Monaco, kind. Tiny little medieval town called. Well, we'll give it away. Actually, I can't give it away. Where. I'll just go and get the best spaghetti vongole on the planet made by a grandmother who's in a. Who's in a kitchen, you know, 10 by 10 at the best of times, you know, with all. And. And it's. It's down on the water and it's just, you know, it's Italy for Me. If you're not in the mountains, if you're by the sea at its best, and, you know, they all get dressed up at sunset, you know, they all love to walk the promenade and. And, you know, in their finest attire and, you know, sit there and watch the world go by and drink their coffee and chat. And I, you know, because I lived in LA for, I think it was about eight years, and I went back. The story of me going back, actually, was that I was. I flew back to London to see a premiere of a film called Backbeat. It's about the early Beatles. I didn't know anything about it, but I had an invite. So I went to see it and I met this guy who said, Who's a line producer, film producer, and he said, you know, do you. Have you been to Monaco before? I said, no. Never even thought about it, really. And he said. He said, do you like Grand Prix? I said, not really. A kind of Grand Prix kind of guy. He said, well, listen, if you got nothing to do this weekend after, you know, we saw the film and the premiere, you know, why don't you come down? I've got an apartment, I've got an extra room. I know the town inside out, you know, And I was thinking, oh, what am I going to do? Go back to LA and be numb again? And so I literally went down to Monaco that the next day, and he. He just showed me around and we went to this very famous restaurant and famous corner called the Rascals Corner on the Grand Prix circuit. And it's literally where you're having a prawn cocktail and there's a car coming at you at about 180 miles an hour with just a chicken wire fence in front of your face. You're going, how far away? I mean, directly in front of you. I mean, the. The car could be.

[A]

So this is it right here.

[B]

Yeah, that's not the Rascast Corner, that's the Lowe's Corner. Rascast Corner is very, very famous little spot there. It is. Yeah, that's it. So you'd be behind the chicken wire fence. This is a kind of modern version of it, but that's even more protection than it used to have. And you'd have a bit of lunch there and they would. And that became. That was the hotspot in Monaco for years and years. There were three brothers that owned it, real troublemakers, and it was a blast. But so you had the car. So I went, all right, I'm into this. And so I spent the summer down there and I used to have a little bungalow on Mulholland and Coldwater and I had a caretaker there because I had a dog the time. And I just said, hi, Tim, pack it up, sell the house, I'm not coming back. And I didn't, I didn't go back.

[A]

Did you take your dog?

[B]

The dog actually died before I. Yeah, yeah. Sadly it was getting on, but. But yes, it moving to my. Yeah, that. That was it. Yeah, I just. I just put everything in storage. I rented this kind of what could be seen as a Miami Vice kind of apartment on the 30th floor. It just had marble and a mirrored wall with no furniture. And so I bought a couch off of the floor of a store called Habitat because it would take like six weeks to order and I had nothing. And so I had, I bough like a couch. I bought a TV even though there was no English TV back then. This is 30 years ago. And I just had a trunk to put the TV on. Occasionally you get American movies and a mattress on the floor. And I live like that for 10 years and just. And just was really stupid.

[A]

Did you enjoy it?

[B]

I was just stupid. Did you enjoy. I had two. I've had two. Well, I've had three major. No, four. It's like the Spanish Inquisition. Four major incidents now. I mean London back in the day used to be a great place to party and enjoy. And then I moved to New York for a few years early in my career, in my early twenties. But I almost. I think I almost died there with the partying that went on in the clubs back in that, hey, the heyday then. And it was celebrity central, you know, with the likes of. At the Limelight with Alice Cooper and a few other fruitcakes. And then, and then I really did feel like I was, you know, I could have. I could have gone off the rails. Yeah, yeah, easily. I was borderline. I enjoyed it too much. And then I went out to LA and a friend of mine had a convertible and we just drove across Mulholland down to Malibu and I went, this is gorgeous. What the hell am I doing? But so I moved to la. I packed up and moved and that's. I did. It's exactly the same thing. I found a place to, to live and I just, you know, was there until I could get myself situated.

[A]

I think I met you in LA. Are you in 1993?

[B]

That's a good possibility. That would have been middle, mid to end of my term out there.

[A]

I was doing something for mtv and you were one of the first celebrities that I met you, I met Rico Suave and a couple other people.

[B]

Front door. Yes. Yeah, because, yeah, I was, yeah. Early in on the MTV stuff, the. The label I was with was pushing whatever, you know, throw me on whatever was available.

[A]

I was with this woman who was an executive at mtv and she was taking me around and showing me la, you know, I'd never been to LA before and, well, I'd been once for a martial arts competition when I was young. Here was. And she took me at this nightclub and you were at the front door about to get in and I was like, holy shit.

[B]

Do you remember which one it was?

[A]

No, I don't. I remember very little about it.

[B]

Was I with some fruitcakes?

[A]

I'm sure I don't remember. I just remember like, oh, that's a famous guy. John Lennon's son. Crazy. Because, you know, I was coming from New York, of course, 25, 26 years old. I didn't know anything and I was like, this is so strange. It was just strange to me to be in these, like, Hollywood parties with this MTV executive who's taking me around, showing me all this stuff. Oh, yeah, she was just kind of like introducing, like, this is what it's like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is what everybody does. They go out. They go out to the clubs and it was just.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The scary. Well, the scary thing about LA was that you thought it was all over by 2:00, you know, because they literally pull your drinks at 1:30, but then they go to someone's house, right. And they continue till dawn, you know, so that was dangerous too. So I was happy that I got away from that.

[A]

Fortunately, I avoided all that.

[B]

Yeah, you're lucky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, there was, There was some fun to be had. No. No question about it. But. Oh, sure, a lot of it was kind of dark too.

[A]

Yes, I'm sure. Well, that's when you, when you start adding cocaine to human beings, you get darkness.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And a lot of Jack Daniels too.

[A]

They go hand in hand.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I avoided all that. Luckily, when I moved to la, I. I'm one of those people that, like, I see where that's.

[B]

How long were you out there for?

[A]

I guess 30. Well, no, not quite 30 years. 26 years. Because I've been here for four stretch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The most. Yeah, the most of my life. The most I've ever lived anywhere. I lived there, but I only went to parties like a handful, very small handful of times. It was all like, I was dragged to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like the last one I was dragged to was Naomi Campbell's birthday party, which was.

[B]

I'm sure that was.

[A]

It was insane. Yeah, it was with Dave Chappelle. So Dave and I were at the Comedy Store, and, you know, Dave knows everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's like, hey, man, there's a party up in the hills. You want to go? And I was like, I don't want to go to any fucking parties.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's like, come on, man. I want to go alone. So I said, okay. So me and Dave, we drove all the way up. It was like a scene in a movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, here's me and my super famous friend, and we're my Porsche, and we're my race car of a GT3. So we're driving up in the hills, and then we have to stop at this place, and then you have to get on a shuttle, and then you get to the house, and then you get on an elevator, an outside elevator that takes you from the main house to the party house. So they had a party house on the top of this hill. So we're up in this elevator with Demi Moore, which is weird as it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, hi. You know, it's weird. I. Famous lady.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we get to the top of this hill, and it's just everybody famous. It's Lenny Kravitz and all these different people. And so Naomi Campbell, there's a photograph of her on the side of the hill that's literally 50ft tall. This enormous naked photograph of her, of course, because it's her birthday.

[B]

Well, of course.

[A]

She's unbelievably beautiful. Still as old as she is. I don't know how old she is, but she looks sensational. So we get to the top of this place. We're hanging out. It's very weird. It's very weird. And then Dave pulls me aside. He goes, man, I wouldn't want to be this famous. I go, hey, man, you're the most famous motherfucker here. He goes, really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Because we're a little high. He was really. I go, 100%. You're the most famous person.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We're just laughing like, this is so crazy. And then we got out of there, went right back to the Comedy Store, like, oh, I can't do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just too strange.

[B]

The scenes are pretty weird out there, that's for sure.

[A]

What's also, these celebrities, they know they can't hang out with regular people. I think they feel too weird, so I think they Try to get together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we were in, like.

[B]

That's absolutely. You're spot on.

[A]

A vampire dance of famous people.

[B]

You are absolutely spot on.

[A]

They call it, like, he said it was like an Eyes Wide Shut party. I'm like, that's what it feels like. It feels like you're in a secret fraternity.

[B]

No, that's. Yeah. There's a few that I've left that I felt very uncomfortable being at. Like, what I. I mean, I can't. Couldn't tell you exactly where and when, but certainly some weird ones up in the hills. So I just went. Nah, this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just doesn't feel.

[A]

There's something about the act of going up into the hills. Like you're going to the lair. The dragon's lair.

[B]

Well, one of the things was the fact that. Well, I mean, now you've got Ubers all over the place, but, yeah, back in my day, there was no taxis around either. So you get trapped. Oh, and then you'd figure, well, I'm here anyway, you know?

[A]

Yeah. You can't.

[B]

Might as well have another drink. And that's what would happen more often than not. But. Yeah, so it's. It's. Yeah. Kind of better not to.

[A]

Definitely better not to. But maybe go a couple times.

[B]

Yeah. Go and check it out. Yeah. Go and see what that's all about. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Many people have lost.

[B]

It's messy, though. Oh, yeah.

[A]

They've lost their time to those places.

[B]

It's very messy.

[A]

It becomes a part of your life and your lifestyle. It's deeply unhealthy. Both. It's physically unhealthy, but it's also, like, spiritually unhealthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a weird way to spend your time.

[B]

Been there, done that. Thank you very much.

[A]

You look fine. You got through it.

[B]

No, I did. I did get through it.

[A]

But don't you think it's good to just know, though?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Not the way to do it.

[B]

No. I think if you don't know, you know, you can't. You can't talk about it. You can't. You can't understand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That weird journey that you go through. I think you have to do certain things sometimes just to realize what it's all about.

[A]

Well, la.

[B]

It's that balance thing. It's the light and the dark, you know, la.

[A]

So particularly odd, too, because everyone's chasing this very specific goal of notoriety. Like, it's success, but success is. It's quantified by notoriety. Like, the more famous you are, the more popular the Bigger.

[B]

Your song is even now, you know, all you've got to have is a bloody iPhone or whatever.

[A]

Tick tock.

[B]

Yeah. And an account and that's it. I mean, very strange. Yeah. Really, really odd. I can't quite get to grips with all of that, to be honest with you.

[A]

I don't think anybody can. And I think it's essentially being captured by a form of technology that has leveraged our desire for this attention, our desire for this notoriety, but it's also.

[B]

Being known for nothing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. That's the scary thing. And having this element of what seems to be the latest generation of this privilege.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Where they believe that, you know, everything is owed to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I. That entitled. Yeah. And I find that shocking, you know.

[A]

Well, that comes along with the quest. Right. If the quest is just notoriety, like, if you're an artist and you happen to get famous because everybody loves your music or loves your photography or loves your. Your books or whatever it is, that's a different sort of a relationship because people love you for what you've made, what you've produced.

[B]

Yeah. There's a purpose.

[A]

Yeah. And I love people like that because I'm fascinated by people that are able to create things that resonate with everybody or resonate with an enormous amount of people. It's fascinating to be around them and to like, to kind of just, you know, I know a lot of famous people now, and I know some of them are just fantastic people. They're just really interesting people.

[B]

Well, you have very interesting people on your show. Show, that's for sure. I mean, that's what intrigued me, you know, from, you know, Professor Brian Cox, you know, who I'm an absolute fan of. I had.

[A]

He's amazing. Such a nice guy.

[B]

Lovely guy. Mind blowing.

[A]

Mind blowing.

[B]

Too much information from. For my good.

[A]

It's so funny. I was talking about him with a friend of mine the other day, and my friend wasn't aware of him. And I had just done a podcast with him, and so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'd gone to the club from the podcast. I'm like, oh, my God, I had the greatest podcast. This guy blew my mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've had him on several times and he's always amazing. And. And my friend looks at the photo, he goes, what does it look like? I pull up, he's like, is that kind of band or something? I go, yeah, he wasn't a band.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

He's like, no way. He's in a successful band.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's an Actual brilliant scientist who was in a successful band.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Mind boggling mind. But I mean, I doesn't comprehend.

[A]

Because he looks like a rock star.

[B]

He does, he does. He's. Yeah. He's not changed his look since the beginning.

[A]

And he's such a great science communicator.

[B]

Well, that's the thing. See, I love science, but I get lost in it sometimes. But he is probably. Probably the closest I'll ever get to really trying to have an insight into what it's all about, you know, as best as he can describe it.

[A]

He's really good at explaining to people that don't have the proper understanding of all the terminology and all the ways they discover he can lay it out for the layperson.

[B]

Yeah, which. Which is why he's so fascinating, which is why everybody should know him.

[A]

Yeah, his show is wonderful, too. Have you ever seen his show? They do a live performance.

[B]

No, I have not.

[A]

Enormous screens and they show you, like, History of the Universe and Stellar Nurseries and all this wild stuff. It's really incredible stuff.

[B]

No, fantastic. Fantastic stuff.

[A]

Yeah. I've been very fortunate in that way that I've had a chance to talk to so many extraordinary people. And it's great, but it makes talking to boring people almost painful. Like you're just holding your breath.

[B]

I don't know which category I'm in.

[A]

You're not in the boring kind. No.

[B]

Well, I can be. I think we all can be, I guess, at some stage.

[A]

Well, just the fact that you're willing to do what you've done just to take these trips and just move to a place, I think that's great. I think people need more of that in their life. I think you could see the world from your neighborhood and from where you live and get a really distorted sense of this experience, this very unique experience of these bizarre thinking creatures interacting with each other on this isolated planet that's hurling through the universe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you could think that you kind of understand the experience until you go to other places.

[B]

Well, I see. I see you're a big fan of Bourdain as well. Yeah, And I loved his shows. I still watch them all the time because it's just what he discovered and how he entrenched himself with the people that he went to meet and the conversations and the food. That's my cup of tea right there, I think. How can you not want to do that, learn and love that experience?

[A]

Well, he had such a infectious passion for different cultures and their food and the art of food. Like he was the first guy that made me consider that cooking is actually an art form. Like, I kind of knew it, but I didn't think of it. I kind of just said, oh, delicious food. Awesome. Oh, this guy's a really great chef. Awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I watched his first show. No reservations, like, okay, duh. It's art. It's art that you eat.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's why they're all weird and they all have tattoos and fucking weird earrings.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

They're artists. Okay. That makes so much sense. And I was like, oh, you ignorant fuck. You had never put it in that category for. So I just like decided, no, that's just food. But no, there's a, there's an art to food.

[B]

It's another level.

[A]

Yeah. Like the place you were talking about, linguine with clams. Linguine vongoli, which is my favorite dish of all time.

[B]

Spaghetti vongole.

[A]

When it's done right.

[B]

I promise that if you ever come back to Monty, as we call it, I'll drive you.

[A]

Oh, I'll go.

[B]

We'll go for spaghetti vongole and hope the dear grandmother's still alive.

[A]

It also makes me angry because when I eat pasta and pizza over in Italy, I don't feel like shit. And then I come to America and I eat the same supposed things and.

[B]

I feel I can eat a friggin salad here and put on weight. I don't know what's going on. I'm serious, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seed oils.

[A]

Seed oils in the salad, dressing and sugar.

[B]

Yep. All of that. That, all of that. I, yeah, I, I agree. I live. It's a much healthier lifestyle over there. Without question.

[A]

Yeah. Food hasn't been violated.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

[A]

It's generally organic.

[B]

You can eat pizza every day and pasta every day. Just. And also that. I think the other real big thing here is the portion control as well.

[A]

Yeah, we're gluttons.

[B]

I mean, you could, you can have one plate full of food here and it'll serve four people in Europe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Literally.

[A]

Oh, yeah, That's a fact. I think, you know, I was poor when I was young and I think because of that I'm more, even more of a glutton.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I just want more food. I want all the food.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then I work out a lot, so I'm always hungry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then I have a really.

[B]

That's a different thing. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the only thing that keeps me from being fat is my exercise, routine and discipline. Because if I was just giving into my whims. I'd be £500.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. For sure.

[A]

Just love food.

[B]

Yeah, It's.

[A]

It's, you know, it's especially.

[B]

Food is fine culture.

[A]

No, of course, you know, if you go to somewhere, like, you can go to Thailand and eat authentic Thai food in Thailand, it's like, oh, man.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there's something special. And it's great when you got friends who have that same appreciation that, you know, while you're eating lunch, you're talking about dinner.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's how excited you are about food.

[A]

And it's also. It just realigns your priorities. Like what. What really are you trying to get out of life? You're trying to get out of life. Memorable experiences with people you care about. Those are like the best moments in life.

[B]

No question. No question about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I long for that, you know, because also I. I go in these very long working time periods and I don't get to see a lot of friends quite, Quite often, you know, and so I really try and work out and look at my schedule these days to go. I'm taking some time out here for a couple of days. I want to see my friends, I want to say hello, I want to share some time and stories and food with them, you know, so it's become a key thing to have that included in running around like a headless chicken all the time, you know.

[A]

Is that what inspired your photography? Because this book is really excellent. Your photography is great.

[B]

Thank you. It was a dear friend, Timothy White, who's a celebrity photographer, and he'd done my second and third album, and we were doing a charity single called Lucy, which was about Lucy Voden, who was the Lucy in the sky with diamond that I grew up with, who died from Lupus. And then I became the Lupus. The ambassador for the Lupus foundation of America. And we were doing a single to raise money called Lucy, and we were doing with another great artist called James Scott Cook, and we were doing a photo shoot and he'd sent me some pictures, and I started screwing around with his pictures. And he said to me, and you don't. You actually don't do that with another photographer's work, you know. He said, what. What the fuck are you doing with my pictures? I said. He said, where did you learn how to do this? I said, well, I didn't. I just, you know, I'm intuitively inspired to play around with stuff. You know, I'm still a big kid, so. And he said, well, do you have any other, do you have other photo, do you actually have photos yourself that you've taken and worked on? I said, well, got bits and bobs but nothing. So he, he and I sat down and looked through all the photos I had and he. And I think there was maybe a thousand at that time, which isn't much at all. I'm now over 120,000 photos. It's mind boggling. That's why this was difficult. But yeah, so he, he said, jules, why don't you do something with this stuff? And I said, what, what am I going to do? He said listen, you should do an exhibition. You've got some really beautiful things here. And I said, I said listen, I'll do it, I'll do it if you mentor me through the whole process. Which he did. And I was probably more petrified at the first exhibition that I did, which was in New York at the old CBGBs, which turned into the Morrison Hotel Gallery. And that was in 2010, I think. And I was more petrified the three days leading up to that than I was ever going on stage. Well, probably my first ever stage performance, which I did in Dallas at rehearsal space, that was down here for the first ever tour. Now again, the anxiety, you know, I, it's the unknown. I don't know what, you know, the worry of what people are going to think because, you know, not just being you, but John Lennon son. Being the second John, so to speak, was always an issue for me. You know, it's feeling like you have to doubly prove yourself. So, and, and literally an hour or two before the opening as well, there was the most horrendous storm and downpour in New York. And I thought, well that's it, no, nobody's coming. But to my utter delight, I had reviews from fine art photography magazines, etc, etc that gave me nothing but praise. And I was shocked, wow. Absolutely shocked. So I just, I just continued doing that. I'm now over, I think, 42 exhibitions worldwide and I just finished my biggest one in Venice at a museum over the last three months. And the book, in fact it. I had approached other publications before, but been pretty much turned down by everybody. And then out of the blue, earlier this year, this company out of Berlin called To Noise, said, listen, do you want to do a photography book? And I said, hell yeah. And they said, why haven't you done one before? I said, because nobody gave me the upper tunity. Excuse my French.

[A]

Do you think that's because you're John Lennon's? Son. Like, there's a burden that is very unique to you.

[B]

I listen to people like, I certainly recognize that there's walls up without question.

[A]

What is that like? Like, what are the walls like, do you think? It's just. They dismiss you.

[B]

There's something's going on. I mean, I've discussed this with Rebecca, who you met, my manager and a few other people. You know, there's, there's occasions where I'll be totally blanked. Like with the last album, I came out with Jude, which took, you know, in between five and 30 years to write and record. It was old songs and new songs that I wanted to balance the sound. And it was, it was at a time when I'd gone through a lot of changes myself and I had decided to finally call myself be Julian. I'd been John Charles, Julian Lennon all my life, but everybody had always known me as Julian. Even Mum, Mum and Dad called me Julian. So I'm like, you know, I want to be. I want to be me finally. So by deed pol in 2020, I said, right, I'm going to be Julian now and the album's going to be called Jude. And the, the reason I called it Jude was it was finally not only an acceptance but, but actually, what's the terminology? It's. I'm. I'm actually taking ownership, should I say, of the name Jude and, and what that represented for all these years to other people and to me. So anyway, so I, you know, that was. The album was a biggie for me. Calling the album Jude for a start is inciting, right. Hopefully positive things. But the weird thing was, you know, I did, I put this whole band together and I wanted to, as a starter, to go on all the TV shows that I'd always ever wanted to appear on. For instance, in England, like Jules Holland, later with Jules Holland, which is the only live music show that I've watched all my life, literally. There's Graham Norton, which. And I've. And I'd done their radio shows, which is really, really weird. And we got on like a house on fire and I performed live and that all went down well. And then it was kind of like, see you on the real show. Producers turned me down and you know, and same with a lot of the late night American shows got just didn't. They weren't interested. And I, you know, I had, I had, you know, I'd done the name change. I'd been away for 10 years. I'd. I called the album Jude. You know, there was, there was A lot to talk about, you know, and a great deal more than I'm presenting right now. That. Anyway, I was. I was turned down. And still. And that still happens to me, which. Which saddens me because just when you feel like you want to open up, you know, and answer any question you can throw at me, I. You know, I've not been allowed to not. It's. That's what it's felt like that I've not been allowed to speak my piece, whatever that is, you know, on. On whatever subject matter.

[A]

It's weird. Weird. It's like the gatekeeper aspect of it is weird, but it's also weird. Like, why not? Like, what would be the hesitance?

[B]

I don't understand.

[A]

It's the idea of the son of a great man, you know, and there's this weird. We have a dismissal and I'm very guilty of it myself. The son of a great man. I would assume, like, that guy's fucked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's fucked.

[A]

The burden is too high. Your dad was John Lennon.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like he's iconic.

[B]

Well, and you. And I think with a lot of people, they don't want anybody to interfere with that, you know, I mean, how dare the. You know, the sun come along and even try and be better in any way, shape or form, or be as good as. Or whatever.

[A]

Whatever. Yeah, you're immediately dismissed.

[B]

Which is why. Which is why, you know, to a certain degree, photography really appealed to me, number one, because. And the reality is I prefer it behind the camera. You know, I don't mind being a goofball once in a while, doing in front of the camera things, but I'm not really comfortable there. But behind the camera and, you know, traveling is what I've. I have a foundation called the White Feather foundation. And, you know, we. We try to help people all over the world. And it started. I know that you have interest in indigenous cultures and I don't know if you know the backstory to this, to the White Feather Foundation.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Okay, so here we go. Okay. I was on tour with probably my most. At least outside of America, most well known song. It was a number one and top 10 in countries all over the world, except for America. And it was called Saltwater and Salt Water is about environmental and humanitarian issues. And I was number one in Australia. I was doing all kinds of shows. I was doing promo and tour as well. And I found myself in Adelaide and I got this call from the hotel management saying, Excuse me, Mr. Lennon, but there's an aboriginal tribe down here with TV crews who want to say hi. And I thought it was like an on the road prank. I said, yeah, sure, sure. Why would they be coming to see me? You know? And they called back and they said, no, no, no, no, this is serious. Can you come down, please? And so I think TV crews, Aboriginal tribe, what's this about? And so I kind of get dolled up a little bit because I don't know what the TV shows are or cameras. So I go down and in the lobby, there's a little platform and about 30 people, half of them indigenous TV crews, bunch of other stuff, and I honestly have no idea what it's about. And this woman who was the elder of this particular tribe called the Murning people, walked up to me and presented me with a male swan's white feather, which is about yay big, and said, you know, can you help us? You have. You have a voice. Can you help us? And I just kind of went, well, you know, do I just continue being the rock and roller or do I step up to the plate, whatever that means? And so what specifically did they want help with? Well, I'll tell you. Initially, you know, I didn't know what the. What their problems were. I imagined that it would be the same as most other indigenous tribes around the world that have had issues, you know, and they said. They said, you know, can you help us? And I said, you know, I'll do it for the children. So I guess what I was saying is the next generation, I can try. And anyway, so this woman was called Irish. She was the elder. She since passed in the last year or so. But I spent 10 years making a documentary with a best friend, Kim Kinsley, who initiated this whole thing. And we made a documentary called Whale Dreamers Independent. We had no money really behind it, no sponsorship. We won about eight International Independent Film Awards, which was great. And. But the backstory to this is that. Is that dad had said to me, and I couldn't tell you when or where, just was one of those times that we were together. He just said that, you know, if something ever happens to me, that I'll let you know that. To let you know that I'm okay or that we're all going to be okay, will be in the form of a white feather. Whoa. So when I. When that woman presented me with a white figure feather. Sorry. You know, the goose. The goosebumps came on heavy. I get them now every time I talk about the story, I'm getting them right now. So, yeah, there she is. There's Iris and there's Bunna, who's one of the other guys.

[A]

That is so crazy.

[B]

I still have that. That. I still have that in the original envelope that she gave it to me. And it's, you know, it's in a very special place at home.

[A]

I mean, you can talk all about coincidences.

[B]

Oh, no, listen, for me, I'm sorry. That was undeniable. Regardless of where my faith or spirituality or religion was. To me, that was. This is real. This is as real as it gets.

[A]

It's funny because people would. People love to dismiss these things like, oh, hogwash. Oh, it's just coincidence. Oh, it could have been a variety of different things, but the reality is mathematically, like, what are the odds? Just what are the odds that you would be contacted by an indigenous tribe and they would bring you the very thing that your father said he would provide you as proof?

[B]

Yeah. And I was in Australia, number one at the time, with Saltwater, the most environmental humanitarian song I've ever written and performed, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. So. So I said, yeah, I'll do what I can. So we did. Made the film. And then with the advent of, of course, the Internet, I. I thought, okay, let's. We will put a website together to. To sell the film, make some, you know, and. And. And I'd also said to my business manager, I said, if we make anything on this, I said, I want everything to go back to the moaning people. And he said, the only way that that can happen is if you have a foundation. So initially, the foundation was just a vehicle just to pass money along, but I started the White Feather foundation to have, again, a vehicle to sell the. The film. And then slowly but surely, I would start getting these emails from people over the years, you know, over times, sorry, say, well, you know, can you help us? And I'm going, well, I'm not really a foundation. I'm just. I did this project and I thought that was it. Anyway, there were a few other. There was lots of emails, and I finally said, well, you know, all right, this is a platform. Let me see if I can. Okay, what am I interested in? What can I do? What I. You know, there's plenty of other charities out there. There's plenty of other people doing other things, but what can I do? What's most important to me, Indigenous tribes were the first. So the moaning people. And then, in fact, in the film itself, in Wale Dreamers, the Kim the. My director, friend and director had already done a segment of a film where he grouped 80 of the elders of the world, world's indigenous tribes, the 80 from around the world, around a fire and just filmed them to talk about their plight and what they had in common and the fact that. That their cultures and land were being taken away from them, being destroyed, et cetera, et cetera. So that became one of the first orders of the day. Protect the mourning, protect indigenous tribes around the world, try to buy back their lands and protect their cultures and their people and try and support them in whatever way we can, which is what we continue to do. When I was in Kenya, going to different schools and health clinics, mostly girls schools, I set up a scholarship in my mum's name, the Cynthia Lennon Scholarship for girls. And so we send them to college and universities where they go to learn how to protect their. Their people and their families and cultures. And so we support, you know, we build health clinics and dormitories. And we do, because, I mean, the stories that I heard from these girls about having to walk to and from schools that took three to six hours, and they'd be exhausted by the time they got to home or to school. And that they, in order to, you know, get ahead, they had to pass, you know, certain exams, but they had the threat pretty much every day of being either raped or murdered. And they would literally stay in their own schools, sleep in. In the classrooms, and convert them to dormitories at night so that they felt protected. I mean, it was. And when they went home, they were doing, you know, three hours of chores every night before they could do any homework and then go to sleep and then walk to school again. So you'd hear these incredible stories that you just. You just realize how lucky you are. And so we try to help, again, the indigenous. We do help with health and education as far as young kids, young girls, across Africa, Kenya and Ethiopia. And also my last trip was to Colombia, to South America, to visit the Koji tribe, who were these insane people that chewed the cocoa leaves. But they used to be fishermen years ago, before the Spanish arrived in the 1600s and chased them off into the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

[A]

Is it coca leaves or cats?

[B]

Yeah, it's coca leaves. Coca leaves, yeah, they chew it and mix it with spit and then. Oh, boy. Yeah, they're all off their heads, really. But they still have this beautiful culture. And I was only there for a few days and we were up in the mountains with them. There's another group, there's an ngo, another group called the Amazon Conservation Team, who the White Feather foundation worked with. And we went down there and was able to buy back some of their land. And we did a couple of ceremonies with them, which were very, very beautiful. But one of the most. Probably one of the happiest moments of my life, and I've only mentioned this once or twice, was that we came back down from the mountains and we came to the sea where we were staying in huts, and the Koji tribe came down with us. It lit a fire on the beach. Sun was just going down and there was no phones, no computers, no nothing. And we were just sitting on the beach and the fires between myself and the Koji tribe, and the sun's just going down and the waves are right in front and it's just very beautiful. Nobody on the beach. Old beautiful beaten up tree trunks that have washed up on the shore and just a little haze from the, the. From the water and the sand being blown. And there was a piece that. I can't explain that it was. I looked over at them and through the fire, you know, the flames of the fire, and we just smiled. There was no words. It was just some level of peace that had been found just living in that moment, that present moment. And then the sun going down. And then, because there's no street lights or anything else around, you saw every star in the sky possible. And so with that transition, hanging out with this, one of the oldest tribes in South America, with the fire, with the sea, with the sky and the stars, there was. I can't even describe it. It was one of the most loving and most peaceful moments of my entire life. The simplicity of it. It was actually the simplicity of it all and just the human heart and the appreciation for the world that we live in. And it's like, well, that's. That's partly why I do what I do, you know, even with the photography is capturing those moments, those once in a lifetime moments. And the other thing was, is that how I started doing photography is when I was on the road a lot, you do these real long haul flights, you know, to America or to Asia or wherever. And back in the day, you only had one movie on a projector. That was it. You know, you didn't have TV screens or the iPhones or anything to watch anything, you know, so once the movie was done and you'd have to, you know, a bit of food or whatever, that was it. Most people would go to sleep. I would always be twitching, of course, so I'd be looking out the window and staring at the clouds and I would. I realized that. But you know what? I Was seeing was literally just moments, and they would never be again. They would be gone, fleeting. That's it. Whatever. That cloud, that light, that shade, that shadow, the color, the beauty of that, the enormity of it as well, was. So I started taking pictures of clouds. And I just thought that. But at these moments, while everybody else was asleep on the plane, I'd be sitting there looking out, either thinking about everything that was on my mind in the world. Yeah. Or I'd be thinking of. I'd be thinking of nothing at all, and I'd just be at peace. And again, like that moment in Colombia, just absorbing everything that I found to be beautiful that was surrounding, you know, so clouds were my thing at first. That was my moment to either get away or think about everything, you know, but mostly that kind of element of freedom and space and just. Am I the only one seeing this? Everybody else is asleep.

[A]

Everyone's distracted.

[B]

Yeah. So I started taking pictures of clouds. And then. And I knew a few rock and rollers, so I started taking pictures of those, too. And then one thing led to another because I'd go on these trips to Ethiopia with great organizations like Charity Water, and again, Kenya and South America and a number of other places. I just would take a camera with me because for the. I. And I have to confess, and I've said this a few times, I have the worst memory of anybody I know. Absolute terrible. Absolutely terrible. And so, in a way, this was taking a camera with me was to catalog what was going on. And it was only when I got back home, I put them on the screen and I go, oh, that's quite a nice picture. Oh, that's not so bad. What if I just did this, that, and the other? And so I started making collections of my journeys, which eventually became my website and my photography. You know, I've never done a paid gig as such, and I've never used nothing that was natural light or present light. So I've never set anything up. I've always tried to, again, get that moment, whatever it was. And then, you know, I had the opportunity. I know I've gone in a bit of a roundabout circle, but, you know, the publishers came to me earlier this year saying, do you want to do a book? And I'm thinking, well, yes, and how do I do this? And because a lot of people don't know I'm a photographer in any way, shape or form, I thought, okay, can I make it a retrospective? Can I. Can I make it all the stuff that I'm interested in, you know, because often as a photographer or even a musician, you get, well, what is your favorite thing? What do you take pictures of? What does your songs about? They're about everything. Why do they. You know, that's, you know, the idea of being pigeonholed in any way, shape or form horrifies me.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

So this was a way for me to show my work. And it was a bit of a nightmare too, because I had decided with the onset of this exhibition, I'd been offered in Venice at this museum, alongside Helmut Newton, no less. Why don't I try and marry the two? So I have the book come out the same time as the exhibition. Now, that meant working on the book like an absolute fruitcake madman on crack. I mean, we were doing nine to 12 hours a day virtually, because they were. He was based in the. The. The guy who I was working with from the publishers was based in Berlin and I was where I was. So this would be virtual back and forth, trying to figure out what makes a photography book great. It was some. It was something else. We did it in a couple of weeks. It was insane. And the hardest job of it all was because I used to shoot anywhere between 150 and 100 pictures for a collection. I was never one of those that had like a limited edition of four or ten pictures again. This was just a catalog of the work of what I'd seen and the charity stuff. But then I had to, you know, in those moments, I had to learn how to make a collection of 50 pictures, five pictures. I'm going, well, how the hell do I do that? How am I going to do that? So it's being able to tell the same story of 50 pictures in five pictures.

[A]

The problem is, you know, about the other 90 pictures.

[B]

Well, of course. And as I keep saying, they're all my babies. So, you know, it's. What it makes you realize is, okay, what's the truth? What's the really, really, really important message I'm trying to get across here? What am I trying to say? What am I trying to express here? You know, because half the time I just feel like a, you know, a messenger, really. I'm just capturing something and I'm sharing it. And the reason I say that is because once I started getting into this, a lot of the earlier emails I had were from disabled people or people that didn't have money that couldn't travel around the world. And they would say, well, you're bringing this to us, you know, by taking these photos, you're showing us your journey and where you've been and these indigenous tribes and this and that. That. I'm going, that's pretty. That's really quite special. That's really, you know, really quite special. Because you're taking on another role. Because I try not to. I've. In whatever profession I've done, whether it's documentary work or books or children's books or music, I never try and shove things down people's throats. I just present things and you take what you want from them. So the idea was to put a book together that just showed the world as I'd seen it through those journeys that I've been on. And what happened was that when we got the go ahead for this exhibition, which was only earlier this year, I was thinking, how am I going to do that? And that was going to. I decided to make that a retrospective, too. But how do I then chop that many pictures down to that of this exhibition? Again? I. Funnily enough, the book became my guideline. So what I'd learned in the editing process of putting the book together, I now looked to that and the book to see how I could present the work on the. In a larger scale in a museum, and. Which was bonkers, you know, and this. This all happened this year. So it's like, okay, all right, you know, I'm going for the ride. Whether, you know, I obviously want it, but. But, you know, when it all hits you at once, it's. It's quite something else. It's been a full on. Full on, busy, busy year. And there's been music involved, too, and other. Other documentary film projects, which you'll probably hear about next year. So it's. It's. It's probably been one of, weirdly, one of my busiest years. Even though you're enjoying yourself, though I'm alive, you know, that's. I think that's, for me, that's. You know, people say, how are you? I'm alive. And I have always gone with things that have been presented to me organically. Anytime I've ever fought that or been pushed into situations. Never generally never works out, I think, for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel fortunate in that these things have come along and I've been in the right headspace, thankfully, to go, yes, I want to. I want to do this.

[A]

You know, when you start shooting, did you. Did you take classes and the technical aspects of photography?

[B]

I don't have a clue.

[A]

So did you. What kind of cameras are you using? How did you learn how to use them?

[B]

I didn't. I Didn't I just like figured out.

[A]

How to focus them?

[B]

Same. Same with music. I play by earth. Not a clue how to read or write music.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And this, I tell you this is one of my fears is that. And I'll come back to this, but because I'm not a practicing musician. Well, I haven't been for years anyway because of all the other work that I do. So if I'm not on the road and I'm not practicing and I've got a terrible memory, I forget. And so, you know, I've been cornered a few times and people say, come on, pick up the guitar or play the piano. Give the song. I couldn't, I couldn't. Even if you gave me a million bucks tomorrow, I couldn't do it. My memory just doesn't work that way. And so if, and this is by my manager and I, Rebecca, we keep having chats about going on the road. I said, listen, if we're going to do this, then this is, this is a lot of work for me. This is. I have to relearn how to play my own songs and my lyrics. And I kid you not.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So.

[A]

But you also have to relearn. Self taught.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right. So what would you do? Like, have you done that in the past where you had to relearn?

[B]

Yeah, well, what I. Yeah, I mean, the last tour I did with the album, everything changes.

[A]

How do you scale it? Like, how do you get.

[B]

You just have to get in the room.

[A]

So you just get in the room.

[B]

And start, get in the room with the guys, you know, the band that you put together. Generally I'll have one or two friends in the band, you know, and I have generally played, you know, rhythm guitar or a bit of piano for a couple of songs. But I have to relearn everything. I mean, it's, it's, it's. And, and then how long, how long.

[A]

Does it take to relearn play?

[B]

When we were, we, we were, we were actually setting up, as I said, to do a bunch of TV shows to promote the album. And I was quite surprised about how quickly because the band was so good. I walked into the room, they had the songs down already and I just went, oh, fine, I'm screwed. So that means again, I have to step up to the plate. And it was just a question of being in there every day, remembering, learning the chords, going over it over, over again. And of course, when I'm. All this stuff that we were going to perform was all new material. Because when I write a Song. You know, if. If I've written the basics of a song in an hour or two, you know, and it's all there, and then written the lyrics and then produced it, recorded it and it's done, that's the one and only or couple of times that I'll have ever played it. So it's. It's almost a new song to me every time I come back to it. It's a real weird one. So for the photography, you know, I just took along basically a really good quality automatic camera that, you know, took the shots.

[A]

Did you know what you were buying or did you just go buy one?

[B]

No.

[A]

And help you?

[B]

No. I'd ask a few friends like Timothy White, I'd say, you know, what could I use if I'm running around? And so I took their advice and I started with a very simple camera that was autofocus and all compact and I didn't have to change lenses. And that's one I did for a trip, trip around the South China Seas on a boat trip. I just took this one camera in my backpack and hoped for the best. And I had a show here at Leica in LA because it was a Leica camera, which was about 50 images of the trip that I did. So. But I think where my strength lies in photography is weirdly, not on the technical side, obviously, but capturing that moment. I tell you the one thing about the woman that's on the COVID of the book, so that's she is now the Princess of Monaco, Charlene, originally Charlene Wittstock. And I'd met her a couple of times and I'd met Prince Albert a couple of times. And I got this call literally the day before they were getting married from a mutual friend saying, charlene loves your photography. She wants you to come and shoot the show. What? Yeah, she wants you to come down to her where she is getting ready for the civil wedding tomorrow and she wants you to take pictures.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I mean, you want to talk about anxiety and crapping yourself, so. Excuse me. I arrive at the hotel where she and all the maids of honors are. I'm sitting in the lobby and I've got a backpack and one camera and I've tried to dress myself up a little bit. I don't know what's going to happen. I had to go through several layers of security, roadblocks and all this to get there, which was nerve wracking to say the least. Anyway. And then the likes of Patrick Demarchelier, one of the best photographers in the world, walks in with, you know, the suitcase trolleys, you know, those ones at the hotel that aren't the big ones on wheels with all his equipment on three or four trolleys. And there's. I've got a backpack, you know. Anyway, I go upstairs, I'm placed in front of her in a room probably about similar to this size. And she's sitting there completely blanked out in front of the mirror with the hairdresser, the hairdresser's assistant, and their assistant, the makeup artist. The makeup artist's assistant. Is that you? Yeah, that's me, yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm in the book a few times. That'll be a questionnaire at one, that'll be a quiz at one point, how many times am I in the book? I don't even know myself, to be honest, but I sit next to her and you've got all these 20 people in a room this size doing things, trying to get her ready 10 minutes before she's getting married. And they put me on this little poof next to her. I'm sitting next to her and she's. And I'm saying, are you okay? You know, should I just. Just take pictures? She said, jules, I'm not sure what to do. I don't know what to do. I'm going, what do you mean you don't know what to do about the marriage or me taking pictures? I can't, you know.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

She says, she said, no, no, Jules, I, you know, it's the photos. I said, listen, this is historic. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to sort of record what's going to happen to you. And exciting for me too, to be a part of that as a photographer. And so I said, listen, I'll keep out the way. I'm flying the wall. I won't be anywhere. And I was thinking, how am I going to do this? How do I do this? And so I just start. I just let people get on and I'm taking pictures and I get a Message from vogue, vogue.com who want a photo from me the moment she's married. And I'm thinking, ah, okay, I'll just keep snapping away at whatever I do. And I watch the Civil Wedding. And then I get. Get on my bike, go home. And I start putting things up on my. On the screen. And I'm looking at pictures going, I've got fuck all I've got. I can't. This looks like crap to me. And this happens to me every time. Every fucking time. And I'm looking at the pictures going, they look terrible. They really, really look blurred and this and that and badly positioned. And I'm cursing myself. And the one thing that I remembered that she said to me is that, look, whatever you do, don't let any picture have me drinking or smoking in it. And I went, oh, okay. And the one thing that Vogue said to me is, we want to see her smiling. And the one picture where she was smiling and she had champagne in her hand and she had a cigarette, I'm going, fuck. So. So, okay. I was not a Photoshop kind of guy, but I managed to get rid of the cigarette. And I'm thinking, okay, how do I get deal with the champagne? And then the one thing occurred to me. I. I thought, okay, I'll do it. I'll. I'll desaturate it. Not black and white, but it'll have an. There'll be elements of tones. I'll make it, you know, so you can't see that it's champagne. And I did that, and I cropped it in a certain way and I went, that's it. Why didn't I think of this before? You know, 1930s, 40s, 50s, Princess Grace. Black and white, old school. So then I turned every picture I had black and white, well desaturated version, similar to black and white of the whole collection I had of her and cropped it in a way that it was like 1950s magazines. You know, it's just certain angles and a different look and a different feel.

[A]

Was she okay with the champagne being in the photo?

[B]

Well, it was. It didn't look like champagne. It just looked like fizzy water. And because they. On the side, there had been bottles of fizzy water and still water. So I went, that. That's cool. She had to give me the okay to do that. You know, when we decided that should be the COVID of this book, you know, I had to get her approval. I mean, I already had approval for, you know, having her pictures in a collection or a box set, but not on the front cover of a book. That may do well, you know.

[A]

Have you ever been to Disneyland?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God.

[A]

Do you know all the pictures of Walt Disney have his cigarette Photoshopped out of his hand?

[B]

No, I did not know that.

[A]

In every picture you see him like this.

[B]

Is that sad?

[A]

Yeah. See if you can find some of those pictures because it's really interesting once you know that they Photoshopped it. There's a guy that we've had as a tour there, shout out to Philander, awesome guy. Works there. And he gave us this sort of history of Walt Disney. Walt Disney died of lung cancer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which you would think it would be probably a good thing to have the cigarette so people could know all that. Poor guy. That's what killed him. But instead they've decided to whitewash it and Photoshop. So all of his photographs.

[B]

See, that's too funny.

[A]

Look at his fingers are always in a position where he would have a cigarette. All of them. And so funny. Those. Those real moments of him having a cigarette or lost forever.

[B]

Whose idea was it to get rid of the cigarettes?

[A]

Disneyland. You know, Disneyland did not want. Yeah. I mean, let's see. There's a person. It says there, it says the action. Seemingly innocuous at first, but it's apparently a murky tribute to Walt Disney's smoking habits. With the company sidestepping around the reason as to why the icon pointed that way, writes HuffPost. It's been long speculated about. The anonymous employee was informed by a lead that the strange gesture from the cast members of Disney park is actually based on Walt's old smoking habits.

[B]

It.

[A]

So people do that two finger gesture to each other. Yeah. That's crazy. Allegedly began training employees to do the same thing. Part tribute to the great Ban, part rewriting history. So they tried to pretend that that thing that he was doing, like Tom Hanks when he played him, he did that thing with his finger. But it's all. It was a cigarette smoker. Like. Like a constant cigarette smoker.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I was one of those.

[A]

Is there any photos of him with a cigarette talking about it in 2014? No, that's me. That's funny. Well, that's when I found out about it. That's when Flander gave us a tour. They stopped doing it then.

[B]

Right around then.

[A]

Oh, God. Gotcha. I got you. I got them all to stop doing it because it's stupid. Like the guy smoked cigarettes. Yeah. Smoking cigarettes is bad for you. He died from smoking cigarettes. You should probably let people know. It's. You're doing a disservice to the whole world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, for sure. And also it's, you know, it's a part of history in the fact that so many people were unaware of the dangers of smoking cigarettes all day. And it's so insanely addictive. Yeah. How'd you quit?

[B]

Cold turkey.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I'd be one of those guys that would wake up at four in the morning and light up a cigarette and then go back to sleep. Wow. Or I'd take. Took about two or three packs out with me of an evening.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Because I knew half of the people would nick half of my cigarettes. So I wanted to have backup. Now I. When the whole no smoking law came, you know, I. Italy was one of the first.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And Ireland. Yeah, it was. I think it was California that initiated it and then Europe took it on board and it was actually Italy and Ireland and I was in both of those places. And it was extremely weird to go into any, especially in Italy and Ireland in the pubs and for it to be a smoke free environment. And that was just so weird because it was part of the norm of back in the day that you'd be in a cloud of stinky cigarette smoke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was any of those locations our.

[A]

Norm at comedy clubs. Yeah, yeah. I would go home from comedy clubs every night smelling like cigarettes. Always for sure the whole audience would be smoking.

[B]

And as a smoker, you don't think. You're not conscious of how other people, how you stink as well. Right. Which, you know, because it was funny. I went. When I quit cold turkey, I did it, I did it because I didn't want anybody to tell me I couldn't smoke. I was such a brat.

[A]

That's why you quit cold turkey?

[B]

I quit cold turkey because I wanted to be. I wanted to tell myself I couldn't smoke, not for you to tell me I couldn't smoke.

[A]

How rough was it?

[B]

That's what brought me down into a depression for a couple of years. Oh yeah, Because I. Listen, I started smoking at the age of probably 11 or 12 as well. My local gang, you know, that I used to be in as a kid. That's what you did, you know, you nicked ciggies from your parents and you'd found the back of the school. And that was part of the initiation, you know, the part of growing up. So. And I loved it because for me, when I became noticed as. As a musician, yeah, I. Again with my anxiety. And I was a very shy kid. Very, very shy kid. Still can be at times, depending on how I feel that day. But I would, Yeah, I would. Cigarette for me, was my best friend. You know, I'd go to a bar and I'd be able to. I'd be the, you know, not the cool guy at the bar. But certainly that would be my way of not having to interact with people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I just sit there and, you know, be a rocker and smoke my ciggy and down my Jack Daniels and it's like, leave me the fuck alone, you know, Unless I, you know, wanted. Wanted to talk. So that was the groove back then. And then when I gave that up, you know, instantly, it was like, what do I do? How do I fill in that void? Well, I actually had to speak to people.

[A]

Is that what caused the depression?

[B]

Well, no, no, no. It was actually. I feel it was definitely a chemical thing because again, I. I was. I was smoking a couple of packs a day. You know, I loved smoking and the way it.

[A]

Did you consider going back just to alleviate the depression?

[B]

I was actually a business manager friend of mine at the time said. Saw me at one stage and said, jules, pick up a cigarette, please. Seriously. I said, you're. You're going to. You're going to die the way you're going. Wow.

[A]

Pick up a cigarette because you're going to d. Without it.

[B]

Yeah. That was literally his sentiment.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it was a few years where it was very, very dark, and it was the cigarettes. No question about it.

[A]

Did you try patches or.

[B]

Yeah, I did all of that stuff.

[A]

Did it help?

[B]

Not really. You know, I. I loved that deep inhale. And it's the delivery method. Yeah.

[A]

It's different than anything else.

[B]

And the thing was, I would still challenge most good singing friends of mine that I could hold my breath or do lengths in a swimming pool underwater and hold my breath better than anybody else, which I was able to. And it's because I was such a deep, deep smoker. When I inhaled, I really, really inhaled.

[A]

So it was like lung exercises.

[B]

Literally. Literally. And I, you know, I went. I remember going for my certain. Yeah, seriously. I consider myself a shallow breather now in comparison, except for when I go on these kind of power walks, you know. Wow. Trying to. Trying to get it all in anymore, but. Yeah, I know I bought a little apparatus, which I've. I still haven't. I've been procrastinating about it, but it's. It's an exerciser that's like.

[A]

I have one of those.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Trainer.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. So I haven't done.

[A]

You put, like, little lenses on it or little.

[B]

Well, you just change the inhalation volume.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's less and back and forth. So you're just trained to.

[A]

My friend Bas Rutten created one.

[B]

Very good. I mean, I. I know that they work. I just haven't gotten around to it, but you know that.

[A]

Well, just breathing exercises alone are great, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can achieve some very bizarre altered states of consciousness through breathing exercises.

[B]

Well, when I was. I mean, I. You know, the. The COVID experience was very Very different for very many people. And where I was in Monaco, in France, you weren't allowed to leave your house without written paperwork to the police that you're going out for one hour and you could only go within 1km, unless you were going to get groceries, where you could only go out for a limited amount of time. If you didn't have the paperwork with you, you'd be fined. And so I, you know, I started doing, using quite a few apps to calm myself and take on deep breaths and a deep focus, because I felt trapped, especially as someone who loved walking, who loved biking, who loved exploring, all of that stuff. And I couldn't move. And here's the really annoying thing was that where I was was quite close to the sea, a couple of hundred yards away. But as I said, I could only be in a 1km circle from where I was, but that half of that was in the sea. And so I could walk left and right to try and get 5k in back and forth, you know, at least 5k to try and get a good walk in. But you weren't allowed on the beach, which was the most, to sit there and contemplate and breathe and just, you know, try and relax.

[A]

One of the healthiest things you can do.

[B]

Yeah, you couldn't, you weren't allowed to do that.

[A]

Everyone lost their mind. And it was really strange. In California, they were arresting people, the Coast Guard was arresting people for surfing.

[B]

Like, I know, it's insane. I remember going on my first power walker along a peninsula that's about 15 minutes out of Monaco. And it's somewhere I go every once in a while. And it was a really quite blustery day. And it's right along the coastline, rocks, high winds, the whole thing. And I'm walking la, power walking along, thinking I'm finally free. I'm finally free. Anyway, so along the path ahead of me, about quarter of a mile, I see a number of bobbing heads. Okay. And I wasn't wearing a mask. You had to wear a mask even when you're out power walking on your own.

[A]

Because of science, of course.

[B]

Genius. Well, you know, let's not get into that, but yeah. And so over the ridge they come, and I noticed that one of the person at the front is wearing a police hat.

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

And so, okay. Oh, shit. So I'm trying to scramble, putting my mask on, and he's taking out, going for a run with a bunch of trainers, trainees, you know, about eight other people from the police force. And they're all gunned up and truncheoned and everything else. And the guy's going off on me in French, saying, wear your fucking mask, you know, And I'm going, and I'm. And he says to me, you know, I understand a little bit, good amount of French and I can speak a little bit. But I. He said, who are you with? And I'm. I'm looking around, there's nobody for half a mile anywhere near me. And he's asking me, who am I with? And I'm thinking, what's that about? This is the weirdest scenario. I'm in the middle of nowhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On a rocky peninsula. And he's asking me who I'm with. And there's nobody. And you know, to put my mask back on, otherwise I'd be in trouble. And it was just the most surreal, peculiar circumstances. Sense to be, you know.

[A]

Well, you could have never imagined it before the pandemic. You could have never imagined a scenario where people would be that illogical. Wearing a mask outside. Illogical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not being able to go to the beach, illogical.

[B]

I still love the fact that you see people sitting on their own in cars today, wearing a mask.

[A]

Oh yeah. Well, if you go to Los Angeles, my friend just went to a party and he sent me a photograph. He's like, I'm at a Hollywood party. Everyone's wearing a mask. Mask. These people are in a cult. Like it's very. First of all, if you haven't read the house, the 500 page synopsis on how. What all went wrong with COVID is the. Everyone should read it. Just understand that the whole 6ft distance, all that stuff is all made up. It's all. Yeah, masks don't work. They don't work unless you have like a face fitting mask. And even that you're getting oxygen in the particle. Like viral particles in the oxygen are smaller than vape particles.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like if you vape with one of those things on, then put it out and then. Or you take a big deep breath, put the mask on. The vape will come right through the mask, so will the virus.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like this is not real. You're. You're pretending and it's forced compliance. Illogical. Forced compliance, which was very disturbing. It was very disturbing to. For me to see how many people were reinforcing that too. How many people were yelling at other people. It gave people a wonderful opportunity to be assholes where they could yell at people for not having a mask on. But outside, like really no. The logic, it was out the window, but it Was also really fascinating to watch. Human nature, the human nature of, first of all, that people really do enjoy controlling people. They really do enjoy telling people what the rules are and punishing people who disobey the rules, even if they don't make any sense. And then also watching people comply, knowing it's illogical and being upset at everyone that points out that it's illogical. That just doesn't make any sense. Like, you're the enemy me, because you're not going along with it. You're making it harder for us. We have to get through this. Like, how are. Is this real?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Strange.

[B]

Yeah. No, I. Yeah. Stay away from everybody. That's the. The only solution.

[A]

Or go to a place. Well, I came here. Well, they didn't embrace any of that. Like, I was in Los Angeles, which is like the. The most compliant place. Everybody was all in. All in on the. The public narrative that was being expressed in the mainstream media. All in on, you know, everybody who denies it is an anti science person. And you're anti this and anti that and just get that vaccine and just get on board with this beautiful little thing we're going to do. We're going to get through this together as long as everyone complies. And if you don't comply, and if your neighbors aren't complying, here's a number you can call. People started ratting out their neighbors. It was like a. It was a program that they, the mayor of Los Angeles, rank like, normally snitches get stitches, but this way snitches get rewards. Like they were giving him money. Giving people money to rat out their neighbors for having parties.

[B]

Yeah. It's beyond messed up.

[A]

Oh, so strange. And it doesn't seem real. Like, my friend, people are eager as.

[B]

Well, joining that club.

[A]

Eager. So happy they're part of it. My friend Hasan found a pair of pants that he was in his apartment and he pulled out a mask out of the pocket. It's like, fuck, when was the last time I wore these? Yeah, there's a mask. And when you see a mask, like, and you realize, like, I had a mask that was in my truck that was in like one of the back, little, little compartments inside. Just happened to be sitting there and I was cleaning the truck. I'm like, look at this stupid thing. I just. This was just two years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You had to have these things. You want to get on a plane.

[B]

Seems like a bad dream.

[A]

It does. It's like Disney and the cigarettes. Like, are they gonna Photoshop out all these People's masks.

[B]

I mean, so strange. It really is. It's all a bit odd. Well, hopefully I. I still don't get it. I don't get any of it.

[A]

You shouldn't. Hopefully these viruses.

[B]

No, especially.

[A]

At least don't wind up becoming the next one. I used to think there's no way that people would want that to happen. I'm not so sure anymore.

[B]

No.

[A]

After this last go around, I'm like, boy, they might be like sinister factors at work here that I. Oh, without question.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure of. Yeah, of that.

[A]

And I was unwilling to ever think that way before. I was like, come on, that's stupid. No one's that evil. Oh, no one would do that just for profit. And now I'm like, I don't know, they probably would.

[B]

Oh, they would.

[A]

Yeah, they would.

[B]

No question.

[A]

So strange. So strange. And then, you know, that I think the frustration of the over complicated, over regulated, over controlled world is probably what accentuates the experience of you being in South America with a fire, looking at the stars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because there's a purity to that, that especially no phones, no computer, no screens, no nothing. Just human beings. I love experience on the planet.

[B]

It's funny because I'm in the process of moving. I mean, I still have my base in Monaco, but the place. Little place I had outside a lot of my later teenage years were. Mum remarried a couple of times, but we were in North Wales. I don't know if you're familiar with North Wales or Wales in general. It's Max. Mountains, you know, sheep and mountains. And so, yeah, I. We lived in farmland. On farmland. And I used to work on a farm too, so I. I loved. And that's where I actually learned how to ride a motorbike, you know, on farmland and through rivers and enduros and stuff like that. And so I've always loved that element of. Of countryside. I always like the. The excitement of a city and the people and the energy, but there's also that. That other side of peace and quiet and birdsong and running water. Yeah. Yeah. And so I. The keys.

[A]

Like a little bit of New York City, a little bit of mountains.

[B]

Yeah, That's.

[A]

That's the key to life.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm in the process of. I've just. And I hate this terminology forever home, but I. I certainly think it's a place that I'll be for a while.

[A]

Do you hate the terminology of home?

[B]

No, the forever. This is going to be my forever home.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I Like moving.

[A]

I really enjoyed moving here. I like getting up and just being in a new place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's good for the brain.

[B]

I think I'd been at the same place for over 26 years through some very good things, but some pretty dark moments as well, whether that's relationships or friendships and things like that. And I finally decided a few years ago I need to change.

[A]

Where you going?

[B]

I'm very close by. I mean, I'm literally 15 minutes away. But it's just a different environment up in the mountains.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Surrounded by, you know, beautiful old oak trees and walking paths and. I mean, I know I sound like I'm going turning old all of a sudden.

[A]

No, you sound like someone who appreciates beautiful things.

[B]

I just want. I, you know, the funny thing is when I went to see this place for the first time, my shoulders just dropped. I just.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it was. I don't want to leave here. You know, I, you know, and the rest of the world seemed very alien. After walking onto this property. I just went, okay. A couple of acres of land surrounded by beautiful old trees and peace and quiet.

[A]

And I have thoughts on that. I think that nature is a vitamin that we don't know we need. Need.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And then.

[B]

No question about it.

[A]

Yeah. You get it. And then you're filled up and you're like, oh, this is what I was missing.

[B]

I mean, that also the whole, you know, tree hugging Earthing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, real. I believe absolutely 100.

[A]

It's real. It's real.

[B]

It's.

[A]

You feel better?

[B]

I mean, scientists scientifically proven that it. Yeah.

[A]

We have a connection to Earth that's been muted by our shoes.

[B]

Correct. This is very, very true.

[A]

Yeah. It's weird.

[B]

Weird.

[A]

It's weird to think that way, but it's absolutely correct.

[B]

You know, you can. I, I'm. And I, I have done this too. That you can get earthing sheets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you can sleep on. I don't know. I, you know, I, I sleep on one. I don't know if it works or not.

[A]

It probably does something, but.

[B]

Yeah, but what? That's.

[A]

I don't know. Just get outside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then get outside the move. And if you can get outside barefooted, even better.

[B]

This is very, very true as the.

[A]

Other day I was playing with my dog in the backyard and I was throwing the ball for him and he just decided sometimes he's kind of lazy. Sometimes he just decides to lay down. So I just sat down with him and it was just this amazing moment of him just wagging his tail, you know, me petting him and just sitting in the yard. Just trees and birds and just.

[B]

That's it. Beautiful. That's it.

[A]

It was a beautiful, peaceful moment that I just experienced with my dog. That's two of us. Chilling.

[B]

That's it. Really, really.

[A]

It was a beautiful moment. I was thinking in that, in that time, like, this is so simple. It's just a simple, beautiful moment. And you know, if you try to explain it to people, most people are probably not going to get it. Okay, yeah. You and your dog, you love your dog. Like, that's not it. No, it's like it was just life. It was just like this moment of life just recognizing and also not thinking about anything else, which is also beautiful. Not thinking about Gaza.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not thinking about Ukraine.

[B]

It's about that little moment of appreciation here and now. Thank you very much. And how that can be beyond beneficial to you. On.

[A]

But then like even explaining that unfortunately has been co opted by the term mindfulness, which is so often used by grifters and like fake gurus and dorks and just. It's one of those words that you say it, you're like, ugh, mindfulness. I hate saying that. I'm a spiritual person. Oh, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. I can't take it. You know, it's like, I get it. But those terms are valuable. It's like the term God. It's like, it's a valuable term. Love is a valuable term. But so often they just get ruined just by by insincerity or just by people who use it as a way to define themselves.

[B]

Hijacked is they've been hijacked.

[A]

Hijacked. Yeah.

[B]

That's it for. Yeah. Which is very sad actually because yeah.

[A]

We could take it back probably. You can take it back from those hijackers. Them.

[B]

I'm in. Yeah.

[A]

I mean there's. Do you know Alex Gray is.

[B]

No.

[A]

Alex Gray is a visionary artist. He does a lot of like very, very intricate psychedelic pieces that are like iconic. He's very famous in like the psychedelic world.

[B]

His stuff is really, you know, I've seen, I'm sure you have.

[A]

Very, very famous.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

But we were talking about this and he said that he took the term God back because he's like, I think the term God has been co opted by this idea of these totalitarian religions that impose very strict rules and dogma on people. He's like, I don't think we should stop using that word just because of that. I think we can Kind of take that word back.

[B]

It would be good to.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think he kind of has. He actually has a church.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like he had to go through a whole thing to acquire, you know, tax exempt status. But his church is this insane building that is all 3D printed with his type of psychedelic artwork. So it looks like some insane, like, magical spiritual retreat that you would find somewhere. Like, see if we can find. It's called a chapel of sacred mirrors.

[B]

Where is this?

[A]

Upstate New York.

[B]

Upstate New York.

[A]

So it's not that far from the city. You can get there fairly quickly. And it's, you know, a completely different world. And he's got this church up there that's filled with his insane artwork. But this church itself is a piece of artwork, like the outside of it. The way, you know, he has a lot of these images of these faces that are like multiple. Like multiple sides of faces all connected together. And this is like this.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. So this is the outside of his building. It's really incredible. That's the building.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Isn't that amazing? So the building is very, very much like his type of tryptamine inspired art where, like, you know, all these third eyes, like, in a fractal form of this geometric pattern on the roof and everything is like that. It's really amazing. Phenomenal. And, you know, been working on it forever.

[B]

What is. Is he professing anything?

[A]

I don't know what his. Keep falling.

[B]

Is there an order as such?

[A]

I mean, that's Alex when he's very young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he's been, you know, in the sort of psychedelic space and psychedelic art space forever. And he had this incredible place in New York City, and then he decided to do this whole church. Just click it right there and just, like, play it out. I don't really know what the video is. Okay. It's 20 minutes long. I see. So a lot of his. So that's his wife.

[B]

Is this derived from. Yeah, like. Yeah, acid and magic. Magic mushrooms.

[A]

It says it right there. It comes out of the psychedelic experience.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He's been a longtime proponent of psychedelics. Just a very, very interesting guy. And his artwork is just incredible. Like, really. But, like, probably the most accurate encapsulation of these experiences in, you know, in an artistic form. Really wild stuff. And again, this is, you know, he's. The way. He's got it set up now, he's in the woods, so he's in this beautiful, like, rural area. And then he's got this incredible Chapel that's up there. So it's pretty cool.

[B]

Well, I'm. I'm certainly a believer in other realms that we don't see on a daily basis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've had a few experiences that would. Whether that's a dream within a dream or whether it's reality, I don't actually know.

[A]

Well, one of the things that I've talked to about with some pretty insanely brilliant people is quantum computing.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And this new Google quantum computer that can do essentially the way a quantum computer works. A problem that would take thousands of years for every computer on earth to solve. It can solve in a second. Something that can take more years than you literally can understand. It could be solved in 15 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, I read that.

[A]

It's insane. And this is where it gets really weird, the way it was explained to me. And we should have to Google how quantum computers work and why people connect them to the multiverse so I don't fuck this up. But the idea is that they're pulling answers from different universes simultaneously. They don't even completely understand how this is working. But the amount of power in computing is incomprehensible. Incomprehensible. You're only looking at it and there's numbers. You could write all those numbers out, but your brain's not capable of grasping really what's going on. And it's probably the biggest breakthrough technologically in human history by a long stretch. And it's all happening without most people even being aware of what the implications are. So see if you can Google an explanation of how quantum computers work. Was it Mark Andreessen that was explaining to us that it's pulling from different universes? No, no, that was being talked about in the wording of the Willow description. Right. But I also. Just to add, when I was reading about this, they said that these benchmark numbers are coming off of Google's own data. Like they're the ones that set like the scale of what some of the quantum. Are you skeptical? Is that what you're saying? I'm. I'm just bullshit on Google? No, not at all. Not at all. No, no. I'm just a grain of salt, like, just to say that, like. Except I think they used tillions. Is the number or something like that. No one even can grasp that. Yeah, that's just based. But that's a number based off of their formula too. Right? That's all right. What is the definition of how it works? The way it pulls from multi. Multi universe. I think the. I'm trying to find it. But I think the understanding I got from it was it's just too powerful to get from our universe alone. You'd have to have more, more than one. And I don't like. That's just like, what does that mean?

[B]

How do they even.

[A]

Exactly what does that mean? Right. What, what is that thing that they have? And if you ever seen the chip itself, the chip itself is very small.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like the size of a saltine cracker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then this entire mechanism around it is just the insane amount of cooling. Okay. Google's Quantum AI founder said the performance gains lead lend. Excuse me. The performance gains lends credence to the idea that we live in a multiverse. The idea is that Willow might be communicating with parallel universes to finish calculations faster. Like what? What does that mean? The announcement led Google's already high stock price to surge, which isn't that shocking. But perhaps most surprising for us lay people that Google Quantum AI founder and lead Harmut Nevin said that the chip's performance lends credence to the notion that quantum computation occurs in many parallel universes in line with the idea that we live in a multiverse. And then it says, excuse me. This obviously has caused a bit of a stir and isn't. And it isn't exactly clear on how he made that leap. It sounds a bit like something out of a sci fi movie. And I'm definitely not going to pretend I'm an expert, but it's worth pointing out that Google is very much still in the theoretical research phase of this journey. This is very weird stuff. An evolving scientific field that even people working on it don't fully understand. What. Okay, here's what is a quantum computer? Let's explain this. The computer we use every day and have been iterating on for the past several decades are what is known as a classical computer. Essentially, a classical compute computer utilizes binary as its language of choice. A bit in the smallest unit of data that a computer can store and process is like a light switch. Each bit can only be in a single state at a time, on or off, which is represented by 0 or 1. Computers Track data based on the language of bits. Literally anything our computers do is based on a network of on off switches sending a particular sign. A quantum computer is a bit different. If you're familiar with the concept of superposition or Schrodinger's cat, this won't be too far of a stretch. But a quantum bit or qubit is capable of representing the potential of Multiple states at once. Rather than only recording a one or a zero, it records both because it can be both. This allows a chip like Willow, which has 105 qubits, to perform incredibly complicated analytics in a fraction of the time a classical computer could. And how does it work? So let's boil it down to a very small example. If you have two bits which can return a value of 1 or 0, there are four potential states that it can be recorded. 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1 and 1 0. If each of these states takes one second to record, it would take a classical computer four seconds to record every position permutation, every possible permutation. A quantum computer made up of two qubits, however, would be able to send to record the potential of each qubit at once, meaning it could record all four positions, all four possible states in one second. The real power here is achieved when you add a much higher number of qubits together and try to record every possible state once again. Something that would take a classical computer far longer can be achieved quickly because a quantum computer can record a number of potential states at one once rather than one of a time. Okay, we basically don't know what the fuck we're saying here. This is just too weird. That's okay. So this is what it is. One of the world's most advanced classical computers. Okay, here it is with this problem. So AI's founder and lead, Hartmut Nevin said that the new chip had performed a purposefully complicated exercise called a random circuit sampling benchmark. In five minutes, one of the world most advanced classical supercomputers. On the other hand, it would take 10 and then three zeros, three zeros, three zeros,. Three zeros, three zeros, 3 zeros, three zeros, Three zeros, three zeros years to perform the same exercise. That's 10 septillion years, which exceeds known timescales in physics and vastly exceeds the age of the universe. So it can do more time than vastly exceeds the entire age of the universe, and it can do it in five minutes. And the reason it could achieve such a monumental improvement in calculating capacity is because Willow is made above 105 qubits and can track the potential of each of those at once, allowing it to record potential data much faster and come to the right answer sooner. So, like, what is happening?

[B]

That's too much information.

[A]

What is. What do you mean?

[B]

I get it, but I don't get it.

[A]

What I don't get, how does that prove the multiverse or provide evidence that the multiverse verse is real. Like, and that it's getting it from parallel universes. Like, what are we even saying?

[B]

It couldn't come up with those answers within the allotted times span? That's.

[A]

Yeah. What? What?

[B]

I can't even. I can't even explain. I mean, funnily enough, this is. That. My brother's into all of this stuff. Sean. He's.

[A]

In simpler language.

[B]

He. He would. He would probably be able to explain it to you. Sean. Probably.

[A]

Well, he would give it a shot.

[B]

He would certainly.

[A]

I think he was the one that was probably explaining it to us in simpler language. Willow is doing one calculation, while an unknown number of Willows in other universes, universes parallel to our own, are doing their own calculations, and they are sharing that data to avoid needing to individually do every possible calculation to finish the equation. What the fuck does that mean? How are they sharing data between universes? I don't know. Ask Nevin. Remember, this is all theoretical and doesn't prove anything, but Nevin is saying that the fact that Chip can outperform. Outperform our best supercomputers by such a wide margin means that it might have broken Newton's theory of physics. Yo, what does it say under that? Jamie, what does this mean for me? Keep that going. Put that back on. Scroll up a little bit. Okay, this is what I wanted to look at at this point. It's an exciting look. What computing might take one day, but it isn't something you're going to see in your next Pixel phone quantum chips. You'd be isolated, incredibly specific chambers. Yeah, this is the thing. It's cooler than it has to be cooled to a point where it's colder than outer space, sealed away from any possible signals such as microwaves, radiation, radio signals, etc. For fear of that noise leading to potential mistakes. And have specific signals delivered by purpose built wires. Who figured this out? Where are those eggheads?

[B]

Jesus. How did they even come up with that? If that has to be the case, I don't.

[A]

How did they figure out that you have to do that? All of it?

[B]

It's. That's just brain damage.

[A]

That's one of the most humbling things that I've found about doing this podcast is realizing how genuinely dumb we are in comparison to the amount of information that's available.

[B]

No question.

[A]

And. And dumb, and I'm saying is like not just uninformed, but incapable, even if given the information of grasping exactly what these apex minds are thinking and working on right now, along with, at the same time, people just living in Ravello. Just having an espresso and a cigarette and getting a slice of pizza.

[B]

Maybe they realize and they just say it.

[A]

Yeah, but it seems like the human race desires all things. The human race desires people like yourself who enjoy photography and travel and this beautiful experience of life. But it also sort of requires people to be at this bizarre cutting edge of science where it seems to be violating the known laws of physics. Like, all those things.

[B]

It hurts my brain. I mean, I'd love to know more.

[A]

Well, just think about what we're doing right now. Just think about what we're doing, actually.

[B]

How a TV works or the radio. I'm still not.

[A]

How's this work?

[B]

I'm still back there.

[A]

What makes this louder? What makes the microphone carry our voice? How is this being encoded into, like, a form that's going to be instantaneously delivered to millions of people? So millions of people are hearing this right now, like, as it gets to them? Not right now, but once it gets released. The millions of people that are hearing this are getting it through the sky on their phone.

[B]

I resign. I truly resign on that level. I can't. I can't. It doesn't.

[A]

No, I can't either, but it's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing. It's an amazing time to be alive.

[B]

Fascinated by it every day. And that's why with subjects that are happening with AI right now, I find it massively intriguing because there is an element to that that may allow me to understand a great deal more, you know, before it's too late.

[A]

I think we're the last of the regular people. It's quite possible, I think, this. This experience that we're having, this experience that you're having, like on a motorcycle with no signal, just driving through the countryside, like, just being alive. I think we're the last of those people. I think. What's even.

[B]

That sounds like a dream, though.

[A]

I know.

[B]

You know, I mean, just the whole concept of that is dreamworthy. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I have a number of theories on who we are and where we came from. And. What are your UFOs?

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

Well, I, you know, to some degree, I'd always felt, even as a. As a young kid, that. That the UFOs were us coming back for history lessons, basically, and that they, the, the vehicles were driven by our minds anyway. But I mean, I've seen, as dad had also seen a ufo. I've clearly seen a ufo.

[A]

What did you say?

[B]

I was actually. Here's the weird thing. I was actually on my way to, I think, visit dad in New York. I think it was New York, which is where he'd seen one on the Upper east side in an apartment that I visited. I went to see him at. He's standing on the roof of this apartment where he, he was living at the time. And yeah, he, he. It's on film. He clearly says, this thing came along, I can tell you exactly what it looked like. Went up the Hudson, went under the bridge, and then zapped off. My experience, I've had two experiences, but the most profound was, funnily enough, was one of those flights on good old twa. And I was in the front part of the plane and I had been given because I was quite young, Maybe anywhere between eight and 10, I don't know, 11 maybe. And I was going to see dad for one of the first times in the US and the guy that was escorting me over gave me a. One of those. First time I'd seen them, one of those books that had blank pages. I thought, wow, those are weird. You know, I. Quite unusual. I'd never seen them over in England before. Just these hardback black covered books with nothing inside. So I had one of those in a coloring set. So I was, I guess, relatively young. Everybody had watched the movie, everybody had gone to sleep. I was staring out the bloody window as I normally do. And I was in front of the wing on the right hand side, and I'm just staring out at the stars, literally. And I kid you not, all of a sudden I see your archetypal UFO with the lights around, light on top. It was silver or, you know, have a reflective metal with white lights. All the pulsating white lights all the way around. It stayed there. I can't tell you how long, how.

[A]

Far away from the plane.

[B]

It was right there. It was 50ft.

[A]

50Ft from the wing of the plane?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, in front of the wing of the plane.

[A]

Did anybody else notice it?

[B]

Nobody else was there. Everybody else was asleep. There was no stewardesses. There was no. Nobody was.

[A]

What about the pilots?

[B]

I don't know. That. I don't know. All I know is what I saw.

[A]

God, I wouldn't want to ask them.

[B]

I. I just. I guess I was kind of freaked out or just okay with it. I don't, I can't even.

[A]

How old were you at the time?

[B]

Okay, any, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11, something like that.

[A]

And how big do you think it was?

[B]

I would say it seemed about the radius would be about the width of this room. But what happened Was. So I watched it for a few seconds, but I knew we were going along at somewhere in between three and 500 miles an hour. I think the old, big, old 747s used to reach that kind of speed. And it just started doing this, going up at the same speed. And I'm watching it through the window going up and over, and there was nobody in the seats on the other side. And so I ran to the other side and was at the window like this. And it was. I was at a seat or two in front of where I actually was in here. And it came down the other side. This is my mother's life. I came down on the other side and sort of pitched itself there for a few seconds, proceeded to move forward what looked like relatively quite slow, and then literally just went and disappeared it forward and that was that. And I. And that was at sunrise, literally just turning to sunrise because I actually, the book I had, I drew the whole thing and the light and what it looked like.

[A]

Do you still have those drawings?

[B]

Okay. No.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Tell me about it. I. I don't know what happened to that, but as clear as day, as clear as day on my life, my mother's life, I. Did you.

[A]

And this is going to sound crazy. Did you have a sense that that was for you, that you weren't just seeing something, but that maybe that was for you?

[B]

I could have taken that angle.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Well, I mean, there's been moments in my life certainly that I felt things have happened at a particular time for me to notice things that it was related to my life experience. I mean, half of the things, I couldn't tell you what they were. But I mean, white feather was an example of that. Right. Where for me that was an. That was undoubtedly a sign, a relevant sign that made me certainly feel that. And I'd had other experiences that that was a real connection, a real message, indirectly.

[A]

Yeah. Well, the white feather is so profound. It's so. It's so intensely on the nose that it's very difficult to dismiss. And I know there's a lot of like hyper rational people that would like to dismiss it like they are. It's just. It's a coincidence.

[B]

It's. Yeah.

[A]

My question is, are you sure? Are you sure? You know, I don't think we are. I think this concept of, of the divine, this concept of being something else has existed throughout the entirety of human beings.

[B]

There's all kinds of stuff going on. I mean, I've seen. I was invited to the location where I was staying And I had this experience where I saw quite clearly I was. I was on my own again, of course, and I was looking out to the sea. This was down in Mexico. And I was literally just kind of drifting off. And I. Without question, at least I believe so I saw to me what looked like Mayan Indians see through dancing around a fire. And I went, what the fuck? I mean, I really kind of got a little scared. I went, what am I seeing? How am I seeing this? Why. Anyway, it was all a bit weird. And at the breakfast table the next day, and I'd never been to this place before, I was invited down as a guest yesterday. And the host, hostess said, you know, how did you sleep? Is everything all right? Did you. I said, well, I don't want to say anything, but I think I saw some see through Mayan Indians last night. Oh, yeah, you didn't know that this was built on a Mayan Indian burial ground? So shut the front door, she said. That freaked me out firstly. And then, of course, she comes back into the room with a tray of artifacts, you know, spearheads and a few other things and other tools that they use. But then she came. She did one better. She came, goes and brings in a book that's a very, very thick book with the generations of Mayan and civilizations that have been there before. And so she says, you know, have a look. And I'm flipping through the books, the book, and I see the exact headdress and skirt that they were wearing and the exact colors of those headdresses. It was two tone. It was like an earth color and a sky blue kind of that. That color. And that's in. In a particular arrangement on their headdresses and on their. On. On the skirts. And. And I said, that's them. And they said, oh, yeah, that would. That was the particular era and that's where we got. Where the. Where the property was built on. And. And I just went, well, okay, all right, though, that just. To me, I'm sorry, that just says between. Between the. Between that and the white feather. Yeah, and there's one or two other incidences. I just went, yeah, there's so much more that we don't. There's something else that lives and breathes and exists around. And there was something written the other day also, whether it's today or yesterday, saying that, you know, our ears and our eyes can only see so much, you know, humans.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That there exists so much more that we don't have a clue about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm just going okay, there's, there's this. If only.

[A]

We have to go back to the idea that eyes didn't exist at one point in time. There were single celled organization organisms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so they became multi celled organisms and then they developed simultaneous eyesight in the ocean and on land. And then this idea that your eyes allow you to see, so therefore you're seeing everything is kind of silly because before the eyes existed, there was no perception, not using light, there was no way you could see things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, so why would we assume that this is all that the senses could potentially interact with, that maybe we just don't have them. And maybe this is what I've said a lot about like psychic communication and telekinesis and all these different things. I think there are emerging properties of human consciousness that haven't achieved like a full blown integration yet. And my real suspicion is that the biological evolution is not going to make it there in time and that the technological evolution is going to intervene and push us just like that UFO disappeared in space, just took off. I have a feeling that the next leap of change that's going to happen with human beings is going to be technologically driven and, and monumental.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a way that you, you won't be able to even imagine life without it. It's scary, but it's also, it's like, it's scary to not be a monkey anymore and to be in a taxi cab. You know, it's, you know what that happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's scary to not, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have to walk everywhere and then all of a sudden you're flying in a plane. All that is kind.

[B]

I would love to be a, you know, a fly in the wall.

[A]

Oh my God. I would have, Love the flight. For me, flying the wall would be like ancient Egypt. I would love to see what was going on when they were making the pyramids.

[B]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[A]

That's my number one place in history. The next would be. What was it like when Genghis Khan was running through Asia? What was that like? You know, those, those are two just.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, there's, there's a lot of unanswered things out there. But I, I, I'm a, you know, I, I make the odd documentary. So I'm, I'm a documentary watcher whenever I can really. That's, sometimes it's either Anthony Bourdain or a documentary that puts me to sleep most evenings after after watching them. Not during.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, no. So I'm, I, I thirst for information half the time, whether I retain it or not is another thing. But I certainly am driven to absorb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What I can.

[A]

As am I. I think that I try to, especially as I get older, to be more open minded and less dismissive of all this bizarre stuff like ghosts, like the like.

[B]

I think what's your. What's your take?

[A]

I think certain memories are so potent and that the energy that's created by these moments is so potent that sometimes it lingers and sometimes it's available and sometimes it's not. And it depends on the state of the people, the state of consciousness that they've acquired, the level of anxiety they're currently experiencing, the level of stress, where they are in the world, the solar cycles, the fucking. I think all these factors come into play and occasionally people see whispers of the past. Or maybe it's not even that it's the past, maybe it's those things are happening. They're just not happening in this level of the multiverse. And that all things that have ever happened are happening simultaneously, all at once in this very bizarre structure that the universe is actually made out of. But we're only capable of seeing 3D space. What's currently available. What's in front of me right now, what am I going to eat for dinner? You know, like we have a very limited view of this thing that is impossible to grasp. Just like those numbers of septillion, whatever. It's impossible. You can't, you can't grasp it. I have a feeling that's everything. I think everything like that, that kung fu movie, everything all at once. I think that's. There's probably a lot to that. There's probably a lot to that. This isn't a binary experience.

[B]

This is.

[A]

This probably is.

[B]

I just want hope we get to understand some of it.

[A]

It's kind of fun to not and kind of fun to like speculate one day. Yeah. But the question is, once you do know, would that be better? Would it be better or is there something.

[B]

I mean, do you have to know everything you know? Just give us a hint.

[A]

Well, you might give us. The problem is you might know everything you know.

[B]

You know, that's what many say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That it's. You're just remembering things.

[A]

Well, that's true too. Right. That information is essentially you're pulling it out of the air. You're like ideas. You're pulling ideas.

[B]

Correct. It's all in the ether. Who gets there first.

[A]

Yeah. Well, do you feel like that way with your music sometimes like that ideas just sort of come to you from the muse?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. I think everybody does.

[B]

No question about it.

[A]

Yeah. Even with photography, I think there's something that tells you to capture this thing. It's gonna resonate with.

[B]

No question about it. I mean, one of my favorite pictures in the. In the book is one called Hope, and it's of this little girl in Ethiopia that I was actually there to take a photograph of this person who was cutting the ribbon to open a new freshwater well. And I just heard this noise behind me, and we were under a plastic cover. It was sweltering out there. And again, because I'm shy and I don't set things up, maybe it's like a guerrilla street shot, you know, And I just. I just had this feeling that I needed to turn around, and I did turn around, and I just saw this young girl just kind of looking at me like. The only thing I can say is that, again, that everything's going to be all right for this little girl there to kind of go, it's okay. We're going to be okay. You know, that's. That's the impression I got from her. It was just this look. It's kind of like that Nat Geo moment, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I literally span around, snapped the shot and turned around and never looked back again. And when I did, she'd gone. She was with a group of friends. And I didn't actually know if I'd got the shot because, again, my eyesight's not the best, and I certainly couldn't see it properly on the back of my camera in the middle of a bloody desert. So it was only when I got back to the hotel and put it into the. The computer that I went, oh, but that. But that face, to me was just like this, yeah, we're going to be okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know, those kind of moments give me some kind of, as I called it, hope, you know, that will do okay at the end of the day, you know, but that's a very human element and very, you know, warm embrace, which I choose to, you know, kind of take on board, as opposed to think that it's anything other than that, really.

[A]

I share that thought. I think we're going to be okay, But I think that there has to be the possibility that we're not going to be okay for us to appreciate that we're going to be okay.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah, correct.

[B]

It's the yin and yang. It's the balance thing again, that the.

[A]

Horrors of the world to recognize the beauty.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think quite a few people are recognizing that, too. I mean, there's obviously some horrible stuff going on right now, but at the other end of it, there's also recognition that we. We. We should take care of each other and we should look after this place that we call home, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I don't mean in that soppy hippie way either. It's like genuine, you know, concern and love and respect for where we are. Yeah. And this is. We are so lucky. I mean, we're so, so lucky. You know, I think. I think it was actually. Actually Professor Brian Cox that just goes. This is insane that we're here now. They're having this experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's try. I mean, if you can take that on board, try to appreciate that and feel that wonder of the fact that we exist in this time, you know, if we do.

[A]

Well, I think we do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think. Well, at least in our experience, we do. You know, whatever this is, you know, there's people that believe this is a simulation.

[B]

Yes, that one also.

[A]

Yeah. Boy, that's a. When. When it's explained to you by brilliant people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It becomes hard to ignore the possibility that maybe they're correct. Like Elon is. He said that the odds of us not being in a simulation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are in the billions. Yeah.

[B]

Ouch. That hurts.

[A]

But wouldn't you think that, though, if you're simultaneously running Tesla and a rocket company and fucking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, he's just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He seems like he's in a simulation. You know, he. And you're also the richest man in the world, and you're also the number one Diablo player in the world. Like he's in a simulation.

[B]

Yeah. Well, he's certainly thinking. He's. You want to talk about a multiverse going on at the same time, he's already there. Yeah, that's for sure.

[A]

Yeah. And if I was him, I would think that this is a simulation, too. It's just because he's got a really good level of the simulation. Yeah, that level's fun.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But it's also. It's like, what do you do with that information? Like, if, you know, like, if you've decided this is a simulation, what are. What are you experiencing? Are these experiences real or is it. It's still real. So. So real feelings and real moments still do exist. So does it cheapen it?

[B]

But does that change your purpose also?

[A]

Does it change how you feel? Does it change the people you love? Does it change.

[B]

You know, but, I mean, you certainly look at him and go, you want to talk about being a go getter, making things happen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He believes it's possible, so he, He. He does it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I. I think that's the same with a lot of people. Obviously not to that extreme. But, you know, I think we do make our own fortune in life. Yeah. In some weird way, I think we are responsible partly for our destiny, for our. Our paths in life. It's.

[A]

Do you believe in free will? It's a tricky one, right? It's a tricky one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's something there that is free will. I believe in determinism as well.

[B]

You have the. You have choices.

[A]

Yeah, you do have choices. But how much of your choices are shaped by your past, your biology, life experiences, genetics, you know, how much of it is. You know, there's that argument, like Sapolsky makes, the argument that that's going to be the. One of the things that we look back on in the future as being. One of the most preposterous concepts that people attach themselves to is the concept of free will.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Sapolsky is like. He's pretty much a pure determinism guy. And I don't know if that's really true. I feel like it's both. I feel like there's. There are decisions that you can make, and you make these decisions and change your life. You could change the life of other people, and you know that you can do it, and you're doing it through will. There's something about focusing your energy and your. Your desires and your. Your life goal, your path to something that's a real thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And things happening at a particular time.

[A]

I think it's very foolish to pretend that, you know, whether it's determinism or whether it's free will, I think it's foolish. I think also there's so many factors to take into consideration to dismiss any of them. Like, to dismiss the concept of the simulation, I think is silly. But to dismiss the concept of the multiverse, also equally so to dismiss. To dismiss this idea that you have no free will, it's like, I'm not sure, because there's something. There's something, you know, guides you in a particular direction that you don't necessarily always go with. So what is that? Is that pure determinism? If, like, sometimes you make mistakes and you recognize you made those mistakes and you recalibrate and re. And then you get to that fork in the road again, you go, I fucked this up before. This time I'm not going to this time I'm going to move forward. Is that free will? Because it certainly seems like it to me. And that's not discounting the impact of determinism, which is all the events of your life and your biology, it has to be shared. It's a lot of different stuff going on simultaneously.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't think, I don't think you can say it's one or the other.

[A]

No, I don't think so either. But people love to do that though. They want to put a stamp on something. Something.

[B]

Yeah, well, pigeonholing.

[A]

Yeah, they just love to like I want to put this in a narrow window of understanding and dismiss all the other things that are contrary.

[B]

No, open mindedness is something that is a necessity in this strange, weird world that we live in.

[A]

It's fun though, right?

[B]

Yeah. Oh no, absolutely, absolutely. I certainly have enjoyed the process. But it's funny that what you're saying, how you're saying things because it makes. It's. As you're discussing this, I'm thinking about certain choices that I've made because of certain things that have happened and certain things in the past and where I believe I should be in the future. Yeah, I mean that's quite. I find quite an interesting one that this whole also concept of well, my mind's going blank. Not enough coffee today. That you're. What do you call it when you're putting it out there. I'm really brain dead right now. When you're visualizing the future and the possibility.

[A]

Manifesting your.

[B]

Manifesting your dreams. But you know, is there some truth to that? I mean, does it. Because that does seem to happen to a degree.

[A]

Just doesn't always happen.

[B]

No, I think it's not at all.

[A]

I think it's a factor.

[B]

Yeah, that's a possibility. I agree with you on that. But there's something definitely to that. I definitely think. Yeah, I, I certainly feel that I can relate certain things happening to me because of manifesting or the will to move things in a particular direction.

[A]

You put your energy and your focus into something and the thing becomes real and you're like, oh my God, I manifested this thing.

[B]

How did that happen without that? You know.

[A]

But it's also work like this for sure. People get this bizarre thing that if you just manifest something that it'll just occur.

[B]

No, that's never the case. No, there's. There's a ton of energy behind it. Yeah, it's a weird process that comes into that for sure.

[A]

Julian, I've really enjoyed talking to you so a lot of fun.

[B]

Thank you. Likewise. Back at you.

[A]

And I really enjoy your photography. And the book is available Life's Fragile Moments. It's an awesome coffee table sized.

[B]

It's. Yeah. Heavy photography.

[A]

Let's do this again sometime, man.

[B]

Thank you. My absolute pleasure.

[A]

My pleasure as well. Thank you very much. All right, bye, everybody.

[B]

Bye.