#2250 - Raekwon

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2250 - Raekwon

Introduction In episode #2250 of The Joe Rogan Experience, renowned comedian and podcast host Joe Rogan sits down with Raekwon, a pivotal member of the legendary hip-hop group Wu-Tang Clan. Released on January 1, 2025, the conversation delves deep into the origins, dynamics, and enduring legacy of Wu-Tang Clan, offering listeners an intimate look into the group's formation, challenges, and influence on the hip-hop genre.

Formation and Unique Dynamics of Wu-Tang Clan Joe Rogan opens the discussion by lauding Wu-Tang Clan's unparalleled status in hip-hop, emphasizing their distinctiveness and collective strength. Rogan remarks, “There’s only one Wu-Tang. There’s only one Wu-Tang. Nothing else is even close” (00:17). Raekwon concurs, highlighting the group's rarity and the difficulty of maintaining such a large ensemble: “Yeah, man. ... it wasn’t normal” (01:05).

The formation of the group is attributed to RZA's visionary leadership. Raekwon explains how RZA, inspired by his cousins GZA and the late Ol' Dirty Bastard, sought to unify talented individuals under a common philosophy. This collective approach was unconventional, especially during the group's inception in the early 1990s, and played a crucial role in their success.

Challenges and Authenticity in the Music Industry A significant portion of the conversation addresses the hurdles Wu-Tang Clan faced in the music industry, particularly the manipulative practices of record labels. Raekwon shares his disillusionment with the industry's exploitative nature: “The problem was, back then, no one knew what was going on” (105:36). Both Rogan and Raekwon stress the importance of authenticity, lamenting how external pressures often force artists to compromise their true selves for commercial success.

Raekwon underscores the sacrifices artists make, drawing parallels to survival in harsh environments: “You have to start from somewhere. ... When you have the right resources, you might survive” (29:09). He emphasizes the necessity of staying true to one’s roots and resisting the urge to conform to industry expectations.

Influence and Legacy of Wu-Tang Clan The duo reflects on Wu-Tang Clan's profound impact on hip-hop and broader culture. Raekwon reminisces about the group's groundbreaking moments, such as performing at Rikers Island with Ol' Dirty Bastard, which showcased their commitment to authenticity: “...the music was keeping a piece now” (18:08). Rogan highlights how Wu-Tang Clan set a new standard for group dynamics in hip-hop, with each member bringing a unique "superpower" to the collective.

Raekwon also discusses the educational role of hip-hop, describing it as “the television for us” that provided insights into societal issues and personal experiences. This educational aspect is credited with shaping the consciousness of a generation: “...like, you didn’t know what was going on, but the music was telling you” (45:02).

Evolution and Future Projects As the conversation progresses, Raekwon shares his aspirations beyond music, including his ventures into filmmaking and business. He speaks passionately about developing a documentary titled The Purple Tape Files, which chronicles the making of their influential album Only Built for Cuban Link: “...this is gonna be a real life film” (101:30). Additionally, Raekwon touches upon his cannabis business, Hashtoria, illustrating how the group's creative energy extends into entrepreneurial endeavors.

The discussion also explores the potential for a Wu-Tang Clan movie, with both Rogan and Raekwon expressing enthusiasm for a cinematic portrayal that captures the group's gritty reality and rich history: “...that's what I wanted to do... It's a Wu Tang movie” (93:50).

Cultural Significance and Artistic Integrity Raekwon and Rogan delve into the cultural significance of Wu-Tang Clan, emphasizing the group's role in elevating hip-hop to a respected art form. They discuss how Wu-Tang's blend of martial arts philosophy and raw lyrical prowess influenced countless artists and solidified the group's place in music history.

Raekwon passionately defends the authenticity of hip-hop, arguing against censorship and advocating for artists' freedom to express their truths: “...if someone doesn't like that, you don't have to listen” (72:56). He criticizes the industry's tendency to stifle creativity for profit, underscoring the importance of preserving hip-hop's foundational principles.

Closing Thoughts As the episode concludes, Raekwon and Joe Rogan reflect on the enduring legacy of Wu-Tang Clan and the importance of staying true to one's artistic vision. Raekwon expresses gratitude for the group's influence and looks forward to future projects that continue to inspire and educate: “...we were talking about things, yo, my first joint and it went gold... We got to be careful” (70:02).

Conclusion Episode #2250 of The Joe Rogan Experience offers a comprehensive and heartfelt exploration of Wu-Tang Clan's journey, challenges, and lasting impact on hip-hop and culture at large. Through Raekwon's candid insights and reflections, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the group's artistic integrity, resilience, and vision that have solidified their legendary status in the music industry.

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Rogan (00:17): “There’s only one Wu-Tang. There’s only one Wu-Tang. Nothing else is even close.”
• Raekwon (01:05): “Yeah, man. ... it wasn’t normal.”
• Raekwon (29:09): “You have to start from somewhere. ... When you have the right resources, you might survive.”
• Raekwon (45:02): “...the music was telling you.”
• Joe Rogan (72:56): “...if someone doesn't like that, you don't have to listen.”

Timestamps Guide:

• 00:17: Introduction to Wu-Tang Clan's uniqueness.
• 01:05: Discussion on the group's unconventional formation.
• 29:09: Sacrifices artists make in the industry.
• 45:02: Hip-hop as an educational medium.
• 72:56: Defending hip-hop's authenticity against censorship.

Note: The timestamps correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quotes were mentioned.

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[B]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[A]

Train my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. That's it. The chef is in the building, ladies and gentlemen.

[B]

What's up? What's up?

[A]

Pleasure to meet you, man. You are a part of the most iconic band in all of hip hop. There is no question there's one Wu Tang. There's only one Wu Tang. Nothing else is even close. You guys are so different than every other band that ever existed. It was a giant group of you.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

And everybody was a killer fucking mob, man. It's a crazy band, man. Like, no one is. If you think about it. There's been a lot of hip hop duos. There's been a lot of producers and MCs. There's been a lot of people that get together in, like, small groups, but there's only one Wu Tang. There's only one group of nine assassins.

[B]

I tell niggas that all the time.

[A]

Like, it's kind of crazy.

[B]

You ain't gonna get another one of these.

[A]

It's crazy that it worked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause so hard to keep all those alphas together.

[B]

It really is crazy to make it work. The most illest shit, some shit that I never would have thought would ever exist. It was able to exist because we tried it, but it wasn't. It wasn't normal.

[A]

It wasn't normal. It wasn't normal. Well, you tried it, but it was just. It almost seems like it was just instinct. Like, it's not like a business strategy that anybody would ever come up with. Nine dudes.

[B]

Nah.

[A]

And nine of the realest dudes. Like, the rawest, realest dudes. And it worked.

[B]

Yeah, and it worked.

[A]

And it worked.

[B]

I tell people all the time, it was like when rza, you know, he came with this whole philosophy of wanting to do it. It was like hitting a lotto for him. Like, he didn't know what to expect. It was more a reputation thing for us. It was like, yo, I want to do this. And, you know, he came to Block and he talked to some real dudes that was. Really had other shit planned in their life, you know? But hip hop was always like, that backpack that we wore every day, but everybody had different plans. So he really, literally came in and started to pick motherfuckers that he felt had potential. So it's like the mob. It's like, you know, you know, Lucky Luciano, prime example, you know, he knew that had potential, right? He knew dudes had potential in any way. He's from a different Part. He's from a different part. He's from a different part. But, yo, what we could do right here is we can make money. So put your feelings down or whatever the case may be, and let's talk about some money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that right there, kind of like, yo, he starts shaking hands across the table. Y'all know you ain't really fuck with me like that, y'all. I never had anything against you like that, though. But it just. It was just something that he felt like at the end of the day, let me try this shit.

[A]

Well, Riz is a genius, and it's. It's amazing that he was able to coordinate that, because that's often the case, right, with other killers. Like, this episode is brought to you by den of Thieves 2 Pantera. You love the action heist Den of Thieves. And now it's back with a sequel that crashes, cranks it up a notch. Gerard Butler and O'Shea Jackson Jr. Are returning to the franchise. But here's the twist. Butler's cop character, he's flipping the script and joining the heist. That's right. The cop goes gangster. And I can't wait to see the chaos unfold. See den of Thieves 2 Pantera. Only in theaters January 10th. This episode is brought to you by Vivobarefoot. We are in the middle of a footwear Crisis. Despite around 95% of people being born with healthy feet, a lifetime in convent shoes can often weaken and distort them. That's why vivobarefoot is on a mission to reconnect people to nature and human natural potential with footwear that maximizes feeling and freedom of movement, helping you regain natural shape and Sensation. Go to vivobarefoot.com joe-rogan to learn more and get 20% off your first Vivos with promo code JR20. When the dude's a bad, they always assume that everybody else doesn't like them. They always assume that everybody else is the enemy or competition. Yeah. So to have nine of you guys together like that as one group, you know, we always. I told you when I was. When I sent you a message, I said that we play protect your neck. It's.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Whenever we have a police escort, that's what's the most hilarious thing. So we do arena shows, we hire a police escort. So it's like sirens and protect your neck. The whole. It's like the perfect song to play when you. When you're getting a police escort. Oh, my God.

[B]

I know. I know. Trust me.

[A]

These young kids that I have at the club, like, I was explaining Wu Tang Clan to them the other night. I go, do you have to understand how wild this band was? I go, when Old Dirty Bastard was in Rikers, they went to Rikers and performed in Rikers.

[B]

Remember that? Yes, I don't. You remember?

[A]

I told everybody. I was like, do you know how crazy that is? You're talking about, like, the biggest rap band in the fucking world, and they're performing in a penitentiary to one of the members who's one of the biggest fucking hip hop stars in the world, who's in jail. And then you guys go into the crowd.

[B]

God bless his soul, first and foremost.

[A]

Oh, my God. Old Dirty Bastard was a. Yo, Joe.

[B]

Is the funniest shit. Because when we came in and when we seen him, he was eating a cheeseburger, laughing and shit. You know, he remind you, he never. He never was, you know, dirty. He. I don't even think. I never seen him eat meat like that or whatever the case may be. But we came in, he was eating a cheeseburger and laughing. So we was dying, laughing. And they kept. You know, the people up in there, they kept telling us, like, yo, y'all can't. Y'all can't go into the. To the. To the. To the crowd with everybody. You know, we not gonna hold no responsibility if something happened. So, you know, be like, all right. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. We ain't going in. Once we got on that stage, it was like, fuck the stage. We out there touching everybody. And it was love, man. It. What year was, man, it had to be. What? I say, what? 90. What? 90? 98. 97. Wow. 98.

[A]

No Internet, probably like.

[B]

Yeah, none of that.

[A]

None of that. Is there even a recording that anywhere?

[B]

No. God, I don't think so. I don't think so. That would have.

[A]

You know how wild that video would be.

[B]

Yeah, I never knew that. People seen that. I don't know how the. You knew that, like.

[A]

Oh, I heard about it. Yeah, I heard about. I mean, in the news back then that you guys perform in Rikers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, man.

[A]

The 90s for hip hop, it was like, people need. You have to understand, for young people, you grew up with hip hop. You're only 20 years old. I get it. But you have to understand, from my perspective, in the night in 1980, there was no hip hop. In 1992, that was all anybody gave a about. That is crazy for a new art form, right? I mean, there was, like, Sugar Hill Gang, There was some hip hop, but it Wasn't the thing until the 90s and 90s hip hop.

[B]

It got big. It got big.

[A]

Yeah, because look so big.

[B]

I remember, I remember. It's so crazy said that because I tell people all the time, like, disco to me was hip hop before hip hop was, you know, disco, R B, everything was a mixture. It was a mixture. So really, when hip hop came, like you said, it came like maybe I'm. I'm gonna say 80s, 85.

[A]

It had to be 84 because I was in junior high school.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we was young boys, right? So I would definitely say you heard something and it was like, oh, is rhyming. I ain't. You know, this shit sound cool, though. You know what I mean? It sound cool. But really, it was a way to bring people together, you know, that was going through different in their life. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, you know what? It was earlier than that, because in 84, I was in high school, so it had to be 80, 80, because I was in high school. I was a freshman in high school in 81. So I heard Sugar Hill Gang when I lived in Jamaica Plain, which was in 1980. So that was the first time I'd ever heard any kind of hip hop.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, like, yeah, like we said, you're 80. Yeah, I was 10 years old, so me probably really, really gravitating to it. I. I probably was like 12, like you said 12.

[A]

What was the first hip hop that really grabbed you? Do you remember? Do you remember, like, what. What was the. That you were first into when you were a kid? All right, folks, it's that time of year. Everyone is on a mission to improve their health and wellness habits and set the tone for 2025 by sticking to a routine. And while sticking to a healthy routine isn't always easy, it's so worth it. And you all know that I've been using AG1 for years. It's hon supportive of my foundational nutrition. AG1 is a daily health drink that combines vitamins, minerals, superfoods, and more in just one scoop. And many traditional supplements are poorly absorbed, but AG1 is designed for maximum nutrient absorption and is packed with micronutrients that are hard to get in your everyday diet. You can also add a few drops of their vitamin D3, plus K2 for added immune support. It's a game changer, especially during the winter months. So set the tone for a healthy year ahead with AG1. Simply put, it's a way to invest. Invest in your health now and in the long run. And that's why I partner with them for so long. Try AG1 and get a free bottle of vitamin D, 3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription at drinkag1.com Joe Rogan that's a 76 value gift for free if you go to drinkag1.com Joerogan seriously folks, check it out. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize what matters most. For me, top priority is financial wellness, which feels more important than ever. And that's where Rocket Money comes in. They show you all of your subscriptions right in one place and help you easily cancel ones that you forgot you've been paying for. Rocket Money also pulls together all of your spending across your different accounts so you can clearly track spending habits and see where you can cut back. You know how it goes. Something might seem like just what you want at the time. Maybe you really need to see that show on that random streaming service. Or perhaps you love Pickle so much you signed up for a monthly delivery box full of them. But then that show gets canceled and you realize there's only so much vinegary goodness a person can take. The money still leaves your account every month and you just never quite get around to canceling it because you're a busy person, right? That's the beauty of Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal financial app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. They'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you can ask them to negotiate for you. Rocket Money will deal with customer service so you don't have to. And that's why Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 a year. When using all of the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster. With Rocket money. Go to Rocketmoney.com jre today, that's Rocketmoney.com jre Rocketmoney.com jre the first shit that.

[B]

Grabbed me was like how you said Sugar Hill Gang, you know, rap is the light. Yeah, rap is the light. That was the shit. Now look, I had cousins everywhere. I had cousins. I had wild cousins. And they was, you know, they was wild. They was selling drugs. They was, you know, smoking weed and sniffing coke and, you know what I mean, doing whatever they was doing. And they used to live two. They used to live two floors above me, and I used to sneak up there and. And, you know, just being a business, being a world, and they would be playing music. They had the record player. You know, you see coke on the table and.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Weed and everything. And my cousins, they was cool. They was like, yo, come in, man. We don't give a. Like, just don't tell your mother that you. That you was around this. You know what I mean? Nah, nah, I ain't gonna say nothing. I ain't gonna say nothing. And I would just be watching and, you know, I would see weed on the album covers and, you know, I mean, just running back and forth in the room and, you know, they in the. But they always was playing music, and a lot of the music was R B, you know, disco, you know. And then next thing you know, I heard this record, Sugar Hill Gang, and I'm like, the groove was dope. I'm like, holy. Like, this is what I want to be. You know what I mean? I'm looking at the whole vibe. I'm like, this is who I am right here, you know?

[A]

But it's so crazy how it emerged. I mean, it emerged.

[B]

Yeah, nobody expected that, bro.

[A]

Well, it was a totally new thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a lot of resistance. I mean, for people that don't know. Those little warning labels on your. When you used to have CDs. That all came from Al Gore's wife.

[B]

Get the.

[A]

Al Gore's wife, Tipper Gore, she was a Democrat. She wanted to censor rap music. Because this is the first time anybody heard, like, iced tea, you know, like six in the morning. Everybody's like, what the is this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and that kind of explicit lyrics. They wanted to put a stop to it, and that's why they put. And these dumb asses, they didn't even understand it sold way more albums. Yeah, because that's what kids are looking for. Where's the this? They don't even swear.

[B]

Get this out of here. Once they got the label on it, it's like, I wanted it. Exactly.

[A]

Once the floodgates got open and kids got turned on to, like, real hardcore hip hop, you couldn't sell the.

[B]

The regular.

[A]

Regular with that. Yeah, but that's what you guys got through with regular. But it just didn't last.

[B]

Nah, it definitely didn't last. But like you said, though, everybody wanted the raw. And you got to remember, at that time, it was a tough time, man. Too much shit was going on. I mean, it was to the point where it's like, yo, in our neighborhood, we asked, we had like crazy people. Like, if they catch you at night, they'll kill you. Like they'd be dressed up like a drag or whatever, all this makeup on. And you know, I remember one time going to the incinerator room. My mom's made me go. She made me go to the. To the. Take out the garbage and shit. I forgot to take it out. And she came home later that day and I was laying down and she smacked me in the head with a broom. Like, yo, did not tell you to take out the garbage. So now I'm going out to the incinerator room, you know, walking. It's on the same floor. And I remember when I cut the corner, I seen a sticking his head out. And he had his hair all. Wow. His was like green and red and all this. And he had lipstick on all crazy. And his eyes was all bugged out looking. And he looked at me and when. And I got the garbage pail with me and it's like, yo, once I seen him, I just. Just turn, I just dropped the and ran. You know, me back then, you know, you yell your mother name and you think that, that, that was something cool back then. You know, she's your hero. At that time, came back, then he was gone. But I think if he would have caught me in that incinerator door when it was closed, he was gonna probably try to run in there and probably try to kill me or something. And that was going on back then because the drugs, the drugs was crazy back then, right?

[A]

That's the big shift is crack. Yeah, that's also in the 80s.

[B]

Yeah, but see, but see, crack, you had that dope, that dope, that dope. So motherfuckers is mixing dope and coke together and getting high and shooting it. Yeah, everything. You know what I mean? It was a serious time back then, man. But, you know, that's how far to me music went back, you know, listening to ladies night, you know what I mean? I had people on my store that had a candy store right on the same floor, but it wasn't a candy store. They got a bunch of penny candy just to make kids feel cool. But really they were selling cocon back coke and dope though. So, you know, all this was going on in the community, man. Wow. It was a serious time. Scary times back then.

[A]

But if it's not for those scary times, you don't get the kind of band that wuang was like that that has to emerge from an authentic experience.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It has to. Absolutely. And that's part of the appeal of it, is that everybody kind of knew that, you know, it was part of the appeal. It was a. There's never been, like, a genre of music like that that's so connected to, like, the grind and poverty and crime and ghettos. Like, the whole genre of me. To be authentic, you had to come from that. You couldn't be like some rich kid from the suburbs that was talking about some. You'd never actually experienced. Nobody wants to hear it, right? Which is kind of crazy, right?

[B]

That's true. I mean, you know, back then, you know, hip hop was really an expression for the ghetto. You know, the way that out, you know, being that we was living in up situations and nobody had. Nobody had no jobs like that. It was like, yo, we needed something to keep us cool, keep us in a vibe mode. You know, Back then, gangs was still relevant. You know, we never looked at ourselves as a gang. We might have looked at ourselves as a tribe that, yo, when you from a neighborhood and you stick to your neighborhood, you know what I mean? And that's why even back then, it was like, a lot of times, you know, you would beef with people that wasn't from your neighborhood just because you wasn't from here. It's like, yo, what the fuck you doing over here? You don't live over here. You know, then it creates this animosity thing. And I remember for us, you know, being. Being in an area where it was like, you go up the block, up the block, stayed up the block, down the block, stay down the block. So for me, I was in the middle, so, you know, I leaned more towards up the block, you know. But then we would go down the block just to start trouble. And, you know, then they would come up the block and they would start trouble. And next thing you know, before you know it, we all fucking with each other. You know what I mean? So that was our way of getting to know each other, is to test each other's heart. And whatever may happen was happening back then, though, but the music, believe it or not, the music was keeping a piece now. Just, you know, the music was keeping the peace. Because they would do block parties, right? They would do block parties. And, you know, everybody knew all these different DJs was coming from different places and going and going to. Going to play some music. And so we knew every time they did that, we knew something was gonna happen at the end of the night. It was just mandatory. It was just because people from all over different. Different neighborhoods would come out and everything would be nice. And next thing you know, you see a motherfucker riding down the street all crazy, you know, you know, trying to hit motherfuckers and swinging a golf club out the. Fucking. Out the window and shit. And, you know, somebody. Mother might have got knocked out, you know what I mean? You know, but the music is still playing, you know, so, yeah, that's the type of shit that. To me, that made it fun, but made it spooky. But it still was fun because it was something to remember.

[A]

It was like, well, it's fun cause you survived.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, Definitely. Survival.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but we were young, so we didn't care about. We didn't care about whether we live or died at that time. We didn't give a. It was like, whatever's going to happen is going to happen.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

But the music. The music is what kept things in order for us, you know, because we always felt like that was a vessel to being calm. You know, when you come from somewhere that's up Joe and it's nothing there. You can't get a job because of your community. Your zip code don't allow you to be like, yo, he's hired. No, it's too infested over there. So you kind of. You kind of become relaxed with that mentality of saying, well, fuck it, I'm a live off the land. I'm a sell weed. I'm a do whatever. I think that is going to make me survive, you know, so everything was just survival, you know, when music always kept us calm. And you always want to listen to what's next being played. Like, I grew up on R B music, like disco and, you know, all that. All that fun shit. Roller skating, you know, I knew motherfuckers in the neighborhood that was roller skating. You know, we would get off of Staten island sometimes and go to these different parks and jams in the city. That was fun too, though. That was. That was fun times for us.

[A]

When was it? So was it RZA that tried? Was it initially all nine guys? Like, how did it get formed?

[B]

Well, number one, it was rza, his cousin GZA and his other cousin, Old Dirty Bastard, that they were super close. Now, Old Dirty Bastard and Jizza, they were from Brooklyn. RZA was from Staten Island. You know, we all. We all Brooklyn babies, too. Majority of us in the clan, we all, you know, resided in New. In Staten island, but. But majority of us grew up in Brooklyn. But anyway, it was those three that Were close as shit. So RZA back then, rza, he had knowledge itself, which was, you know, being involved with the Nation of Islam. And also JZA and O Dirty, they were a part of the nation at that time. So they would go to a lot of rallies. This is a place where everybody go when they build. They talking about mathematics and all of this. But it was jizzing Old Dirty who instilled the hip hop into rza. So RZA was a DJ back then, but he knew how to rhyme too. And he knew how to rhyme because of his cousins. So they kind of had this gang called. Not a gang, but they had this thing called the All In Together now crew, which was them three. And they would run around and they would battle, you know, different guys from different cities and move around. So, you know, some of us kind of knew what they were about. You know, a lot of us, you know, found out later who they were. But when Jizza and Old Dirty came to Staten island, they came in and hang out with their cousin. So, you know, we started to see them a little bit more and know that, you know, yo, I heard about your rhymes and, you know, and Dirty, he was just a crazy back then. He was crazy. But yeah, they had their own little thing going on. And then, you know, next thing you know, Jizza caught a record deal. He caught a record deal, which was rare back then. Like, if you had to. If you fucking caught a record deal, that mean that you had to have relationships, you had to know where to go, you had to have some cut, some type of connects. So that's what gravitated RZA into wanting to. To do it. Because he seen that his cousins had. Was able to, you know, crack the code on making a record. So when that happened, it was almost like it magnetized RZA to be like, yo, I gotta make a record now too, you know? And the next thing you know, they had they movement going on. So us from the outside looking, it was like, oh, shit. Yo, we know them. We know they super passionate about, you know, being in the game and doing whatever they gonna do. But we wasn't thinking that far. We just loved the music in general.

[A]

Wow. So. And then. So RZA is essentially the mastermind to put all the pieces together and to bring all you killers into one under one roof.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Absolutely amazing how he saw that, because again, that's not something that existed. Yeah, it's like Eric being Rakim. You know, there was, you know, there was a few epmd, there's a few people, you know, Your. Yeah, Gangstar. There was a few people that were together, but it wasn't like you guys.

[B]

Guys. Nah, nah.

[A]

Because it was kind of scary. God damn. When you guys had a show, I mean, I heard stories that it was just like, you guys would show up, like, 300 people.

[B]

Yeah, that was. You know, that was some neighborhood. But, yeah, like you said, that was so rare to see a group that come out like that. And it was really a mistake. It wasn't really designed to be that way. But when RZA had a record situation and they tried to make him be something that he wasn't, and then, you know, always the case, you know what I mean? He was like, yo, that. I don't even care about the shit at this level no more. I want to create this now, and I'm bringing in all my guys. And, you know, he just. He just put that number together. So. Believe it or not, I was one of the guys that he called first because we used to hang out like. Like, I tell people all the time, like, yo, I might have been RZA's first, you know, big fan. So I kind of seen something in him already. I seen something. I'm like, yo, this guy really, you know, him and his cousins, and I'm like, yo, these motherfuckers really got talent, you know, not only the ability to rhyme, but they was clever. Like, talking about clever rhymes.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

You know, and they was mixing it with the knowledge and, you know, smart rhymes, not. Not these fucking regular Humpty Dumpty lines. Like, I'm talking about serious rhymes. I'm like. I'm like, damn. You know what I mean? Like, yo, so, you know, this is something that I felt like I would want to go chill with them just to be in the mix and be a fly on the wall. Wasn't even thinking about being no rapper. I didn't give a. I just love the music. But I'm watching these, yo. I'm like, something about these that I love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and next thing you know, when rza, you know, RZA went out there and he came back to the community, he was like, yo, I caught a record deal. So, you know, I was there. I'm like, let me see this. Looking at this. See what the.

[A]

It.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm looking down here like you said the. The. What's the name?

[A]

Fine Print.

[B]

Yeah, the Fine Print. And I'm like, yo, this made a record. Oh, yo. Wow. Staten Island. That's what's up. We up. You know? But his situation ain't Work out the way he wanted it to. And that's when he came back and he started to be like, yo, Chef, this is what I'm trying to do.

[A]

Well, the dangerous thing for young artists in every industry is when you have potential and you're young, you sign a contract, and you don't know what's going on. And then you get locked into these people, and then a lot of times, you're getting. And you don't even know what the fuck.

[B]

Because the mandatory.

[A]

Mandatory, mandatory. You're getting, which is how they make their money. They make money by young artists who don't know any better. And by the time someone gets to, like, a prince's level, he's like, oh, you owe me. I'm. I'm a fucking squiggly line. Suck my dick. He performs as a symbol. I mean, that's why he performed as a symbol, because they owned him.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

You take, like, the most talented people in the world, and they get owned by people who provide no value.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Today it's even crazy, right? Because there is no record sales anymore. It's all gone.

[B]

It's over, baby. It's all gone.

[A]

For a young artist so important that they stay independent as long as they can. Just like you're hanging off a bridge. Hang on. Yeah, that's what you want to keep grinding. Don't sell it. Don't sign. If you sign, you're gonna be fighting that 10 years from now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're gonna be in court 10 years from now.

[B]

Yeah, you're right.

[A]

And somebody's gonna be getting not just 50%, but, like, some insane. Like, Bill Burr was explaining this about his. His first comedy CD that he got a 6040 deal. He's like, oh, great, 60, 40. But it's not really 60 40, because he has to pay for all the distribution.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All the. All the printing of the CDs, everything came out of his money.

[B]

I'll ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Put yourself in an artist situation, right? You have talent. Right. You have talent. Here it is. I got. I got everything you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna have to make some sacrifices for sure. Because you know that. Yeah, you may feel like, yo, I got talent, but I don't have the resources.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So those resources come and tell you, yo, look, I'll give you a shot. I'm gonna give you a shot. But either you take this shot or you stay in the hood. What are you gonna do?

[A]

You're gonna take the shot. Gonna take the shot, you're gonna take the shot. And I agree with everybody who takes that shot. I'm just letting them know, right? I'm just letting them know you're getting fucked.

[B]

You're getting fucked. But see, it's the sacrifice that I'm trying to explain to you that's that every. Every artist takes. They takes that sacrifice. Because at the end of the day, you have to start from somewhere. So even when labels are being them, in my mind, I'm saying, yo, I get a chance to have a job. Joe, niggas ain't never had no fucking job in their life. And now we get a chance to do something that you could maybe think that you could change the world with and love. It's like, you're gonna go for it. So for us back then being kids, we didn't give a. We didn't care about signing. Yo, I signed because what the. I gotta lose. I have been through everything. I didn't. I didn't been over here. I didn't been kicked out of everywhere. It. I just want to be heard. So a lot of time that be the protocol is just to be heard? Yeah, to be heard. To be able to say, yo, something happened. I don't give a look. A lot of artists got robbed. A lot. A lot of artists. And especially our. Our OGs that did it before us, like, you know what I mean? Sugar Hill gangs, all these different guys, they all have been manipulated to do what they had to do. But it almost gave them power too, because they became.

[A]

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[B]

Famous. They became big. They became less.

[A]

There's an argument for that, but I think it should be more fair.

[B]

Oh, listen, of course I'm with you on that.

[A]

You are?

[B]

But we just talking about this.

[A]

What you gotta do, you have to do.

[B]

It sacrifices everything.

[A]

If you're a young kid, and that's step one, and now you're on the Runway, okay, you got to take it.

[B]

You got to take it, but you gotta take it.

[A]

It just should be more fair.

[B]

Oh, and it shouldn't be. I agree.

[A]

You shouldn't lock me.

[B]

And I'm sure later on things worked out and, you know, now that you.

[A]

Proved yourself, once they become undeniable, it's.

[B]

Like, I tell them all this. I'm like, yo, imagine you were a hustler, right? And you run into the Kinect and the connect say, yo, you talking like you know how to move shit. I'm gonna give you 50 pounds of marijuana back then. You know what I mean? Now, you may feel like at the end of the day, you can handle it, but a motherfucker tell you, joe, I'm giving you these fucking £50, but I need my money back today. At this time, you could either take the 50 because you so confident, or take one and say, yo, I'd rather take my time. You know what I mean? I don't want to be in debt with you. What are you going to do?

[A]

You got to take the 50.

[B]

You go, oh, you. Oh, yeah. He wants to get his head chopped up.

[A]

You got to take the 50. I mean, you got to know people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you got to bring everybody in, and you got to share the money.

[B]

You got to know people.

[A]

Share the money. You got to know people.

[B]

If you ain't confident in knowing what the fuck you need to know, I advise you, don't take them.

[A]

You shouldn't be having that conversation if you don't know anybody. But if you know some people and you're generous, oh, that's the thing. You got to make it worth these people's while. You got to break. You got to say, listen, we're all going to get something out of this.

[B]

And see, now, look, that philosophy that you said is what we took on. Yes, we took that on. We said, you know what? At the end of the day, we'll take this little bit of money, but we gonna go. We gonna be willing to sell ourselves to get to this level because we know what we believe in. See, it all starts from what you believe?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If you don't have the belief in yourself to make it happen, you fucked.

[A]

It's all. It's a rising tides lifts all boats thing too.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And with Wu Tang Clan, that was for sure a big thing because anybody that was associated with Wu Tang Clan was automatically respected. Affected automatically. People wanted to listen. Automatically. Yeah, automatically. So, like that. That just lifts everybody that lives there. But it's hard for people to see that everybody thinks about themselves. Especially when you're struggling. When you're struggling, then you're scared and you know, and scared money doesn't make money.

[B]

Money.

[A]

That's what it is. Everybody gets paranoid and they think, no, you got. That's when you got to bond together. That's when everybody. You have to find real people and stick together.

[B]

Said that you said the key word. You got to know. You got to sell that 50. Yeah.

[A]

Talk to Carlos, go down to bodega. Let's make a deal, man. We got to make some deals.

[B]

I guess that's what Rizza did, is that. Yeah, he danced with the devil for the right reason. And, you know, we took. We took some scars. We. We got hit.

[A]

It was a different world back then too, in terms of the industry, because today all you need is a social media account. Spotify, SoundCloud. You can blow up. Up. Yeah, you can blow up today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back then you needed the radio, you needed. You know, you could sell mixtapes, but it's hard. Or you had to be some undeniable talent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like I. We always play the video of Biggie when he was 17 on the street. Remember that video?

[B]

Yeah. When he was in his neighborhood. Yeah.

[A]

That's undeniable talent. Like, that's the kind of talent like that dude's gonna. If he stays alive. You can't stop that train.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That trains running everything over. You know what I mean? It's like there was guys like that back then, but man, to get out there and get your name out there, you had. You had a dance. Dance with that devil.

[B]

Yeah. You had to work.

[A]

Mm. And that business was so dirty back then. It still is, but real dirty back then in the record selling days.

[B]

Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, but that's what made us learn, is that we had to grow through. We had to go through those growing pains. We had to get jerk to learn how to say, yo. That was a lesson. So everything is a lesson at the end of the day. It's like, if you willing to sacrifice yourself and your time to learn something, I Would always say, go for it. You know, go for it.

[A]

Definitely go for it. It's so much better than not going for it. Yeah.

[B]

Because then you're going to be. You're going to be sitting in the same situation, and you're gonna realize at the end of the day, damn, I should have took that opportunity. Some people are scared of opportunities when they come. And it's like, if a person offer you opportunity, nine times out of ten, it may not work for you the way you want it to work, but it may be opportunity to help you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's all about you trying to help yourself and. And get out there. It's like what watching Scarface and the told him. He said, yo, give you five grand better. And if you this up, Chico Scarpa looked at him and said, man, the is you talking about? We built for this, man. You know, when he lost, he lost his man in the mix, but he was able to prove to himself that I could do it. Yeah, that's how I look at rap as like, yo, I don't give a. Yeah, we'll take this. We'll take this little bit of money, but we're gonna prove to y'all later on that we know what the we doing.

[A]

And for young people listening to this, every chance you take, where you fail, that's a lesson learned, baby. And you just keep taking chances, keep going, pick yourself back up, figure out where you up, and learn from that. Now you're better.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Now you have more experience coming into this next thing. Just keep going.

[B]

Just keep going.

[A]

Just keep going. Especially as artists. It's just like, so many artists, they don't hit until they do. And then when they do, it's like, oh. And then people want to go back in their past stuff like, oh, this guy had fucking three albums before this.

[B]

Yeah, think about it. Think about all our favorite artists out there. You know, Eminem. You know, Eminem been trying to fucking get on, you know? Mm. You know, Rakim, Slick Rick, all these.

[A]

So many.

[B]

They went through. They went through a lot to get on, you know, I mean, Biz Markey, you know, nobody wanted to fuck with Biz at first, but. But, you know, he finally figured the code out and was like, yo, this is what I'm gonna do. You know, he started rocking shows and different communities. And next thing you know, people start hearing about him, and you're like, oh, yo, this guy's dope. But it's that sacrifice, man. I tell people all the time, God is sacrifice.

[A]

It's time. Put in time. Put in energy, effort, determination. And you gotta have some talent.

[B]

Yeah, you gotta have some talent.

[A]

Talent is just. God just gives you something or doesn't. You know, some people just got it. You know, some people. It's also like artistic families like Nas, you know, he grew up in this, like, intellectual, artistic family, and that's why his rhymes are so good.

[B]

Yeah, his pops. Man, his pops is a musician.

[A]

Yeah. Rewind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's like one of the greatest songs of any genre anybody's ever written. It's a genius song.

[B]

Song so crazy. I was listening to that yesterday.

[A]

Genius.

[B]

Back in the gun.

[A]

Yeah, genius song. The whole song backwards with lyrics, and it's amazing. Oh, I love Nas, especially for lyrics. His lyrics are incredible. They were so good. So we're so good and. And unusual like that. Like deciding I'm gonna be the first guy, I'll make a rap backwards and make it work perfectly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, it's just. Hey, did you ever listen to any of the shit where the Brand New Heavies got together with a bunch of rappers?

[B]

The Brand New hobbies. I know the name, but.

[A]

Brand New Heavies, like a jazz band. They did a collaboration with Gangstar, Cool G Rap. A bunch of guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some of my favorite of all time.

[B]

Yeah, they was more musical, though, like. Yeah, more musical. Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever heard Cool G Rap's Death Threat? Oh, my God. Jamie, play that, play that. Find that. We'll put. We gotta put on the headphones for this. This is in my. Along with a bunch of Wu Tang. This is. This is in my Spotify playlist. This is Cool G Rapping. Like, I want to say. 92. Yeah, 92. Listen, this. Hey, with the 44 Mac, it's so simple.

[B]

Put it to his temple Gotta give a permanent dimples Easing up on a fast flow But I'll let your ass go. I never heard this before.

[A]

How good is this?

[B]

One of my favorites right there.

[A]

Turning his Chicks with Small Dick six.

[B]

Nice, so good. Nice, so good. So this was on the Brand New Heavies album?

[A]

Yes. Brand New Heavies did one with Gangstar. They. They did a bunch of different artists.

[B]

Nice. What year was this?

[A]

92.

[B]

Yeah. Phenomenal beginning. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I was on a road trip. I was doing a gig in Connecticut with a buddy of mine who's a comedian, right? And he turned me on this. Like, you got to listen to this. I was like, oh, my God. And then I. I had a CD and I lost it, and I couldn't find it forever. And then someone brought it up like a few years back, like six or seven years back, and I was like, it's got it. You got to be able to find it. And that's the beautiful thing about today with, like, YouTube and, you know, so many of these platforms people upload that you totally forgot about.

[B]

Like, Tim Dogs. Yeah.

[A]

You know, people forgot about, like, Compton. Remember that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He was a wildcat, but he was around.

[A]

Was good, though. He was good.

[B]

Yeah. He has wilding back then.

[A]

Yeah, great, man.

[B]

Yeah, he was wilding back then.

[A]

But Coogee rapped that to me was like. That defined like road gigs for me in the 1990s when we would drive. That was when blocking came out.

[B]

Remember that?

[A]

Oh, my God, that song is amazing.

[B]

Yeah, man. Damn. So you. You really. You really pay attention to this, like.

[A]

Yeah, hip hop was a big part of my. My childhood or my. My young adulthood. You know, when I was driving around a lot doing comedy gigs, like a lot of ghetto boys. I was a huge ghetto boys fan.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

You know, I was playing the other day in the green room. I was playing Fuck a war for these young kids. I was like, listen, this is a song from the 1980s about the Iraq war. This is about George Bush in the. In like the 19, late 1980s, and it applies today. You remember war?

[B]

Nah. You.

[A]

Come on. Headphones are coming back. Let's go.

[B]

Schooling me on like.

[A]

I talked to Willie D. Willie D told me, wrote the song in 40 minutes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it was just angry. Wrote this song in 40 minutes. And this is ghetto boys in their prime. You know that album Bushwick Bill?

[B]

That was my guy right there, man.

[A]

This is Bushwick Bill.

[B]

You that you've been drafted into the United States military. United states wants me 91.

[A]

91.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, what's up?

[A]

Look at that big phone he's got.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I had one of those before, too. Yeah, I don't give a about you and all that. You stressing a war to explain something like this war. That's how I feel. Send a to zeal to get killed cause 2 suckers can't agree on something Thousand died for nothing. You can't pay me to join an army camp or any other military brat of the United goddamn States of that America be a soldier 14 they put on the front line but when it comes to getting ahead they put a talking crazy I ain't your damn ho. This right here to me all of those wasted lives and only one or two can break a note, Died. Oh, got hung. What the do I know about a grenade? All I know is a 12 gauge. And what if that pin get stuck? Yeah, he was in the NWA chamber, but dude, he was an NWH that shit was good. Public Enemy thinking, that applies today.

[A]

We were all talking about what's going on right now with Gaza and Palestine.

[B]

I know Iran.

[A]

I was like, listen to this and.

[B]

See, this is why we love hip hop so much, is because it was educational too. It was giving us jewels. It was talking about things that were going on in the world. And that became the television for us. The music.

[A]

The music became the news too. Like, you need to know what was actually going on. Like, fuck. A war tells you what's really what's going on. Yeah.

[B]

So when I think about those Compton boys, those NWA cats and all of that that was expressing themselves, it was like that's what we all were facing and living amongst. And you know, like I said, I never heard that song before, so I could tell that was made around the time when NWA was doing they thing and, you know, you hearing about all these riots and shit going on and things happening, you know, us living all the way on the other side of the world, it's like, yo, we not. Yo, what the fuck was that?

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know, but you heard it in a song and you knew it was real, right? You respected it. And to me, those perspectives and music were important for us because we were learning as we were getting older about society. You know, you don't think about society when you poor and living in fucked up positions. You just think about survival.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You see what I'm saying? Survival is only thing on your mind. And you're dealing with things that's in front of you that at the end of the day you like, damn, the fuck was that that just happened or what was this shit? But then when you heard it in rapping and motherfuckers like these was talking about it and all that, right? It's like now you was like, oh, okay, I see what the is going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not just here. It's. It's all over. It's in every. Everywhere, every ghetto or whatever the case may be. That's what was happening.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I never heard that before, though. You just. You just put me on some ill. Oh, and that's one of my favorite groups right there.

[A]

I love the Ghetto Boys.

[B]

Ghetto Boys Real right there.

[A]

The. The 1990s ghetto boy era.

[B]

Crazy that and that.

[A]

Like, I remember the day I found out about NWA I was teaching taekwondo in Revere, Massachusetts, and I was at the gym riding on the stair climber. And I just picked up this cassette and I was like, NWA I keep hearing about this and the Police was the first song I listened to. And I remember I was on the stair climber going, this is.

[B]

You see what I'm saying? You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're. You're hearing people talk about the police. Like they're getting harassed by the police in a way you never heard them say it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

The police coming straight from the underground. It was like. I was like, wow.

[B]

Straight from the.

[A]

It was a totally different kind of music. It was. It was like they were rapping and no one was listening. It was like they were rapping for themselves, right? Yeah. Like they didn't give a fuck who was listening. They were rapping like they were doing it for their friends, but they were doing to the whole world. And the whole world was like, whoa, 100 miles and running. The whole world was like, whoa, this is crazy.

[B]

So look, you had them, you had Public Enemy.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

All of them type of guys were giving us information that was relatable in our community, that they.

[A]

KRS1.

[B]

KRS1, the teacher, you know, that's the.

[A]

Sound of the police.

[B]

All that right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was knowledgeable. Knowledgeable. Rap, hip hop. I ain't gonna call it rap. Hip hop.

[A]

Information.

[B]

Information, Right.

[A]

They like, especially KRS1 and Public Enemy. Yeah, they were. They were saying something. It was like very. But it wasn't contrived.

[B]

Right, right, exactly.

[A]

It wasn't like, you know, you see people say today, like, ah, you just doing that for claps. Like they were saying to let people know about some information that you're not aware of. And this is why you're getting. This is why we're all getting.

[B]

Absolutely. Come on, come on. Even when Spike Lee may do. Do the. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of my favorite movies right there. That's a classic right there.

[A]

Classic, classic, classic, classic.

[B]

But like you said, we was getting information. And, you know, you gotta remember, you know, at the end of the day, you know, a lot of people that. Coming out of the, you know, the hood and just being like, I know you. You come from the hood. You. You know.

[A]

Well, I was born in Newark.

[B]

Yeah, he's born in New York.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shout out to Newark. So you. You seen it.

[A]

I wouldn't exactly say I come from the hood because I went to high school in the suburbs.

[B]

Yeah, but you. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[A]

I lived in Newark. I was telling you. I lived in Newark when I was 23 for about six or seven months. And I told you my next door neighbor, he was selling dope. And the. The police raided his house while I was there. They battering, rammed his door and everything. He had a nice Audi, right. I looked at my house. This dude has a nice car, right? He was selling dope and they got him.

[B]

But she was around it, though, so. Yeah, you know.

[A]

Well, that was also the time that I was the most into hip hop too. I mean, that was 1991, I guess. 90. 91. That was wild era because that's when hip hop was just exploding.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Exploding, Yeah.

[B]

I would say definitely 91. You had naughty By Nature.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

They had emerged on the scene like you said. Rakim and Big Daddy Kane.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Easy Ease and Ice Cubes.

[A]

To this day, I go to Work. It's one of my favorite workout songs. Big Daddy King. I Go to Work.

[B]

Yeah, that's one of our icons.

[A]

Oh, my God, I gotta work. Oh, he was so smooth and so fast, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Big Daddy Kane had, like, a very particular style. It was energetic, you know, you heard his style, like, got you, like, your blood started pumping, you know. Yeah, you started getting moving.

[B]

And see, those are the type of guys that paved the way for us to be so, you know, outspoken on the mic. You know, when I sit here, when I think about the clan, you know, the woo on how we, you know, formed. We formed Voltron. Each one of us had a superpower that related back to those guys, you know, all these guys that we talking about today, they was the. They was the light bulb right in the. In. In the house. You screw that on you. This is what I see right now. I see Slick Rick, I see Rakim, I see Cube, I see fucking, you know, all these guys that paid the way for us. So the clan at that time, we were so, you know, inclined on knowing about all these guys, knowing majority of them. We kept a piece of them in us that helped us become who we are. Like I tell motherfuckers all the time, I say, yo, let me tell you something. When we came out, Naughty By Nature was the. They was. They was up on the east coast side of things, you know, and at that time, you had them. You had epmd, you had Queen Latifah, Roxanne Shantay. All of these, you know, artists back then were blowing up LL camp. Front on ll.

[A]

Oh, yeah. LL was huge.

[B]

Coogee Rap, one of my Favorites. I know that's one of your favorites. You know, the Fat Boys, all these guys were just.

[A]

That's right, Fat Boys.

[B]

You know, these guys was giving us so much food for thought that we knew that if we didn't come on that level, we wasn't built to be in a game at that time.

[A]

Well, there was so much high quality. Yeah, the. The high quality.

[B]

That's the word.

[A]

The level was very high.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

The lyrics were so good. Like, you would hear lyrics and just go, oh, yeah, that was the thing. That was the thing about it.

[B]

Lyrics.

[A]

I love that. Oh, my gosh. Everything that's right, you know, it's like that was the style back then. It was like the most clever guy, the most clever lyrics. It was. It was so important, you know, so many guys that just had. Everybody was battling for. So it was like more and more cleverness and more and more intricacies and more and more twists of what they were saying.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it was just a vibrant art form, man. Like, it. Like, how many people cheated on their significant other because of opp, Right? How many relationships?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it was like a license to. People were cheering.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean, it had. So the hip hop had so much influence on the culture and it emerged out of nowhere. That's what's so crazy. Like, 10 years ago doesn't exist.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

Boom. I mean, even rock and roll. I mean, rock and roll, you had the 50s, it starts to emerge. Then the 60s really takes off. And, you know, it'd been around for a while.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To have something like hip hop just explode and make a lot of other things look lame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, especially for young kids. Because when you hear guys like you and, you know, Ghostface and, you know, Method man and, like, you're dealing with real dudes who are talking about real, and everybody else just look kind of lame, you know? You know, it was like they didn't even swear. You know, it's like, you. You guys were wild. It was fun and it was clever. And I think RZA did a genius thing by naming it Wu Tang Clan because it connected it to, like, this kung fu mindset.

[B]

I know you big on kung fu. Cause, yeah, I'm coming through your shrine. And he got all kinds, kind of shogun warriors.

[A]

Oh, some real samurai outfit out there.

[B]

Yeah, But. Nah, but you know what's so crazy I tell people is, like, when rza, when they was on a Wu Tang, we wasn't on that. I grew up watching more like Scarface and Mafia movies once upon A Time in America.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

One of my favorite movies.

[A]

Oh, it's a great one. People forget about. Once Upon a Time in America.

[B]

That's my movie right there. That's my. That's my movie. So we were like. We were living in this. We were living around a lot of hustlers. A lot of drugs was being sold in my community at that time, right? So when RZA came with the whole Wu Tang philosophy, it was almost like, yeah, we love karate flicks. We would watch them. You know about the karate flicks? 3:00. 3:00. Yeah, we come over in school. Them shits is on Channel 5, all of that shit. But if you notice and you look at those karate movies, it was about a place that, you know, was filled with a lot of crime and aggressive people that were doing things that bothered other people. And you either had to protect your people or you had to make a name for yourself. Now, when you think about Wu Tang, I'm gonna just give you a quick lesson on what Wu Tang was. Was. Wu Tang was a school that was in Shaolin. This particular school. These was crazy. They was up. They got kicked the. Out of Shin.

[A]

Really?

[B]

They got kicked out. Yo, y'all bugged out, y'all wilding, y'all, but these guys were very good, but they just couldn't sit in Shaolin because they had a different way of looking at and doing. So when RZA came with the whole philosophy of it, it's this movie that's called Shaolin versus Wu Tang. Right? Check it out. Whenever you get a chance. So whatever was going on in that movie, he made a reality of it because really, at the end of the day, that's how we were living back in Staten island, you know? So we wound up changing the name and calling it Shaolin because we were the forgotten barrel, you know, when you think about Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, Manhattan, I don't really talk too much about Staten Island. That bothered us. So we didn't. We felt rebellious. Like, yo, you come out here, you ain't from here. You better know somebody. You're not coming in the projects thinking you're gonna act like you're going over to your friends. I remember we used to see UFOs come through. We call them UFOs under unidentified flying Objects. The he doing it, yo. Follow him. Go. Yo. Yo, you came to see, you know what I mean? Because we had so much to prove. But it was the same thing that was going on in the karate flicks. Like, yo, you go to a new Neighbor, who is this guy? Either he's coming to play you, he's coming to play you, or. Or you gonna play him. This is all the. That's going on in the karate movies, you know, the Brotherhood, yo. Oh, my brother got hurt. What happened? Oh, hold up. Let's go.

[A]

Right?

[B]

We gotta go get back to that. Yeah, we gotta go figure that out. All this that RZA was thinking about at that time was a reality check for us in Staten Island. So even when he came with the name, it was almost like, yo. Wow, that is interesting. You know, Wu Tang Clan, yo. You know, and back then he was hanging in Ghost's community, which was Stapleton. So Stapleton was a place that was maybe like 10, 15 miles away from Park Hill, where I'm from. I'm from the Hill. I'm from up there. They were selling drugs and getting crazy with it, and Jamaicans and West Indians and Guyanese and, you know, it was a melting pot. You know, it's a melting pot of different nationalities. And you had the Spanish over here selling dope, you know what I mean? You had the white boys over here doing what they doing. You know, all these things was going on. But in Stapleton, it was nothing but criminals and motherfuckers that want to fight and rob and steal and, you know, and RZA was hanging out there a lot, you know, so they came up with this whole, you know, Wu Tang mentality thing that they bought up the block to us. So when RZA came with it, it was like, oh, shit, we like that. That's kind of dope. But, you know, we see the vision of that, you know, but it was never for us to look at it at any given time. Like, yo, you trying to portray us as some ninjas or some. You know, a lot of times people thought, yo, your no karate, no, no karate. We don't do that. But we grew up. Our older cat, our older brothers and sisters, they grew up on it. That was some early 70s right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, back then you might have had a cousin that was a martial art. He knew the arts. And, you know, you looked up to him like, yo, this motherfucker's ill right here. You know, he know the arts and he know how to fight. You know, your would be in back of the building with two Doberman pinches and, you know what I mean, beating them with laundry mat hoses and. And, you know, grabbing them and hanging them on. And, you know, back then that was, you know, that was dope to see your cousins and all of them do it. But Rizza, when he came with this philosophy, it kind of like us all up in it. But we agreed with it right away, because Wu Tang was, to them was always something like a. An expression. So if you drinking, this is Wu Tang. I'm drinking. You know, you. You over here. Yo, this is some Wu Tang or whatever. Because he was trying to say that we were just like them in the flicks. It's crazy.

[A]

Wanna hear something crazy? Whenever I kill an elk, you know, I go bow hunting every year.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Whenever I kill elk, when I text my friend Cam, I text Wu Cam. Like, whenever I kill something, I'll show you. Oh, I'll show you.

[B]

I've seen some of the pictures today.

[A]

But I want to show you that that's true. I'm not making this up. It goes back years. It goes back years. This is, like, our tradition. Whenever I kill an elk, well, I'm gonna find this. I'm gonna find. The last time I said Wu Tang, I text him every day, so it's gonna take a second to get back into some pictures. But whenever I get one, I say Wu Tang, and then I send him a picture.

[B]

Oh, crazy.

[A]

It's gonna take a while because I do scroll. But this is important to show you this is real. Come on. Go back and search Wu Tang and it'll show you. Oh, we'll show you. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Look at Jamie under Cam Haynes. Or just Wu Tang. Then when you find Cam Haynes, it'll show you. Oh, look at Jamie. Tell me how to do it. Sorry. Here we go. See all. Here it is right there. Wu Tang.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

And then the elk is down.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That was from October. But I got. I go back, like, five years of doing that. Like, every time I shoot an elk, I text Wu Tang.

[B]

When you started hunting? Since you came out here.

[A]

No, I started hunting in 2012. I shot that deer. That deer, that head that's right there. That was the first.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Animal I hunted. And then I was like, okay, that's what I'm doing. Wow. I was. It was either for me, it was that or become a vegetarian. I watched too many of those PETA films. You know, those animal factory farming films and torture films. I was like this. Like, either I'm gonna be a vegan, or I'm gonna learn how to hunt. And my friend Steve Rinella took me hunting. I shot that deer. I'm like, all right. That's what I do now. I've been doing it ever since, so I've been hunting for 12 years. Years. 12 years, yeah.

[B]

So you consider yourself a marksman then?

[A]

Well, it's like I'm not really good like compared to real marksman, you know, that's like saying you're a black belt when you're not really a black belt.

[B]

You know, like, like I go through the courses.

[A]

Yeah. Like, how good are you? I mean, I'm good for regular people. Yeah. If you didn't know. You think I'm really good. Yeah. But like for people that are really good. No, I'm not. Not nearly at their level, but you know, there's like professional archers that are like super accurate it out to 100 yards. They could shoot like a softball sized group at 100 yards consistently.

[B]

I got a couple of homeboys who could shoot like that though.

[A]

It's a lot of discipline. Yeah, a lot of discipline.

[B]

Yeah. But they, they come from, they live on this side of town too though.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of bow hunting in Texas.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[A]

Lot of bow hunting in Texas. Yeah, it's fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I like it.

[B]

I gotta get out there one day, man. I gotta.

[A]

You know, I told you, like we were talking before the show, like, you wanna learn? I could put you on some people that'll 100% teach you how to do it down. And because you're, you're fairly close, like that's a easy thing to do. Hook it up.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

You would enjoy it. It's a, it's also, it's a nice discipline to clear your mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You set a target up in the backyard and just shoot the target. It just clears your mind because you have to really concentrate on it. And while you're doing it, you don't think about nothing else. For a guy like you busy, so much going on. Like, it's good to have a thing like that to just.

[B]

It's like a sport to me. It's like something to learn and, and kind of master. Yeah, that's important.

[A]

But it's one of those things like, like a shooting, a free throw. Like at that moment you can't think of anything else other than what you're doing. If other shit gets in your head, it's like you don't have any room. Focus, you got to push it all out, right. And just think, oh. And that kind of stuff like cleans your mind.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's like it flushes your mind out.

[B]

That's what it all, that's what it's all about. At the end of the day, man. Just kind of like get a piece of mind and vibe to something different, though.

[A]

Yeah, I always say that for artists too, you should find some other thing you like to do just to give you a little break mentally from whatever you're trying to do.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You could get too close to something and lose sight of the big picture. If you're all wrapped up in it.

[B]

Too tight, sometimes you need something else.

[A]

That you also enjoy outside of it. And then you can look at what you do. Okay, what am I doing different?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Maybe I should put a new wrinkle in this. Maybe take a new turn, you know.

[B]

Mix it up, man. That's important, man.

[A]

Yeah, you know what? What's another cool thing about today is that it used to be thought at one point in time, I think it was like the early 2000s, that rap had that hip hop had a shelf life and that there wouldn't be classics, you know what I mean? Like, the Rolling Stones were still touring. You know, they were 58 years old back then. Like, this is crazy. The Rolling Stones are back on the road. But that was like a new thing. It was like old rock and roll guys out. Touring was a new thing. But with hip hop artists, like, if you weren't in now, if you weren't new now, it kind of people weren't in to go to see you, right?

[B]

Yeah. Well, when I see guys like LL and Kane and them perform and Slick Rick and Ice Cube, it kind of. It gives me more leverage and more strength to want to do it it, because I see some of my legends still doing it today. But yeah, man, like you said, just to see a lot of guys like the Rolling Stones and Mick Jagger and I'm still performing, it's like, why not?

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Why give up on it, you know?

[A]

But with hip hop, it wasn't really a thing for a long time. Like, because you're a hip hop, right.

[B]

You didn't think that it would last.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean? So you felt like like you would get a five year run. They say any artist that was coming out back in the 90s, they was already putting a cap on how long or how far they felt she was going to go. So even for us, we was like, yo, hey, we do this for like three or four years, we good, yo, we'll be cool with that. So they always put us in a. What's the word I want to say? What's that? What's a box? Put us in a box. Yeah, to make us feel like at the end of the day, yo, this is going to be here for a minute, then it's over, you know? But seeing guys still doing it, you know, I don't give a. Like, I listen to Billy Joel. I'm a Billy Joe fan. That's my guy right there.

[A]

That's hilarious.

[B]

People. I know people would be like, get the out of here.

[A]

That's hilarious. I love his old. Until he.

[B]

He's the.

[A]

Until he had that supermodel. Yeah. Life. Then everything got real soft. Yeah. Too much. Good. He got supermodel, and it's like Uptown Girl, she's been living in her uptown world. Before that, you go back to his other, you know. Oh, and the Good Die Young. Oh, that's a great channel. He's got some great stuff, man. Scenes from an Italian restaurant. That's a great song, man. Captain Jack. Oh, Captain. Captain Jack's a great song, Billy Joe. But when he got older, it just became, you know, he was changing as.

[B]

A human New Yorker, too, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To the heart right there, right?

[A]

I mean, that guy sold out Madison Square Garden like 300 times.

[B]

You see what I'm saying?

[A]

Kind of crazy.

[B]

Still going.

[A]

Yeah, still going.

[B]

So those are our heroes. Those are guys that we. We look up to that, you know, they still doing anything, man.

[A]

Yeah. It's just beautiful that hip hop is like that now. Because I feel like in the 2000s, only it was more overseas. Was showing you guys love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a lot of Europe, like, a lot of my friends that were like, maybe bigger in the 90s, they had to go over to Europe and they would do it. Yeah.

[B]

Check out hip hop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I tell people all the time, like, being. Being from the States, being where we from, I think they appreciate it more because they. They never really got a chance to grasp it as much as we did. So they come out more right now, today.

[A]

They're more enthusiastic.

[B]

They more. They love it more, you know, so.

[A]

When they can't believe it.

[B]

Yeah, they can't believe it. But for me, I think I love performing a lot more when I go out there, because they come out and they never, ever make you feel like they don't appreciate you. You know what I mean? And even to this day, it's like the clan still goes out there and makes a ton of cash. We see a lot of people, and we see young generations of kids now, too. It's like, yo, you look in the crowd, you're like, yo, how the fuck. How old is that kid that we just. We just put him on stage and he knew that. He knew the fucking words. Like, yo, he's like, he might have been like 17, 16 years old. Like, yo, he wasn't even fucking born.

[A]

Well, there's classic hip hop now, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I was a kid, there was classic rock. You like, you listen to Led Zeppelin. It was classic, classic rock. Now there's classic hip hop, which is amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, well, it just shows that the culture is, like, completely accepted it as an art form. And so now young kids that get into hip hop, maybe one of their friends will be like, hey, you ever heard of this? And then they turn them on to new stuff.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And they're like, wow. Yeah, yeah. This is 1992. You know that.

[B]

You know, and I think that that's how we were. We always were infatuated with the music before our time. You know, like how you just said, like, yo, you know, listening to Sugar Hill Gang, you know, I actually had them in one of my videos before.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Word. You know how that. And I brought them to my hood, too, so you know how that felt for me.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Sugar Hill Gang come out to my community.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

That was dope, though, right there, man. But, yeah, man, it. You know, that's why I always feel like, yo, I tell people all the time, you have to respect the people that did it before you, man, because they gave you something to. To dream about.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Be able to instill in yourself, like, if you don't have that, then you're not. You're not moving the way you're supposed to be moving, you know? I remember old man would tell us, if you don't know where you came from, you'll never know where you going. So having that history. That history is. Is an experience that sticks with you forever. You have to have that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't try to front on that, you know, And I think a lot of times people, you know, they look at hip hop and they think certain things is hip hop. It's like, history of hip hop is something that you gotta know, man. You gotta know it. You gotta know it. You gotta know it.

[A]

You should know it. Like the history of the United States.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's. It's something. If you're an artist, like. Like that. What. That's what lit the fire. Somebody had to light the fire. And if these young guys don't know, like, hey, this didn't even exist in 1979.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't even exist. That's not that long ago. And then all of A sudden, now it's everywhere. Like, what happened? Somebody lit the fire. And if they didn't light that fire, you wouldn't. You wouldn't have it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You wouldn't have the embers. You wouldn't. You wouldn't have this desire to try this thing.

[B]

Exactly. And now look what it's doing. Look what it did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, yo, one of the biggest genres of music is like, you know, and there's a lot of times people take shots at it. Like, you know, y'all ain't talking. Negative man. Ain't talking this, they talking that. It's like, my thing to. That is always like, yo, it's no different from going to see a scary movie.

[A]

Exactly, Jason. Exactly.

[B]

Killing. I hated camp, you know what I mean? Based on that, Heat is one of my favorite movies.

[A]

Great movie. Movie.

[B]

I love Heat, you know, Daero Da.

[A]

But why is it okay to do that in a movie, but it's not okay to do that in a song?

[B]

Right. I don't understand it. I don't. You know, it's hypocritical. You know, it's hypocritical.

[A]

You said it is. It's hypocritical because they say it encourages violence. And that's the same thing they'll say about video games. Like, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doesn't it, everybody?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's going on, really? What's going on really, is you have a bunch of disenfranchised people that don't have any hope. And if they are around a lot of violence, maybe something will get them excited about violence. If they're not disenfranchised and they have hope, they're not inclined towards violence. It's a societal problem. Has nothing to do with the art itself. The art itself is representative of real experiences. So if you're telling people that they can't express themselves about real experiences, you're just going like this, la, la, la, la, la.

[B]

I'm not listening.

[A]

That's all you're doing.

[B]

That's how you feel it at the end of the day.

[A]

This is these people's lived expression. This is that. Which is why Wu Tang was so good. The reason why it was so good is because it was real. Like, no one was questioning the authenticity of anybody that was in the Wu Tang Clan. So it's like that the message that you guys were putting out, the way you were putting things out, like, Wu Tang Clan ain't nothing to fuck with, like that is that it was like, from you to the World, you know? And if someone doesn't like that, you don't have to listen.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You don't have to listen, Right? But if you slap a warning sticker on it, you're just gonna sell more.

[B]

Listen to it anyway, right? You're gonn. You're gonna get caught up in it anyway. Yeah, it's like, look, prime example. When we made the record Cream, right? Cream was a record that didn't have nothing to do with anything but the realness of what we were looking at. It wasn't really a song to rap to or have fun with. It was a reality. It was a picture we was trying to paint.

[A]

Cash rules everything around me.

[B]

Cash rules like, like around me, not me. Should never rule you, but around me, you know? And a friend from the neighborhood, he actually came up with that acronym. But I tell people all the time. My cousin. I had a cousin from Brooklyn that he used to come to Staten island and he used to sell drugs for us. And he came up with that word cream, because he was like, yo, yo, as long as I can make my cream, I'm good. I'm like, what the is cream like? Like, you know what I mean? He's like, yo, Cream, yo, you ever see Tom and Jerry, the movie? And, you know, he make those big sandwiches and all of that and splash all that cream on it. And, you know, I'm like, oh, the Tom and Jerry, the sandwiches, right? Yeah. When he made the big sandwich and stuff them in your mouth and all. Nah, real, real. So the cream that. The cream that was splashing all over the place, he was looking at that as. That's his money. Like, I just want my cream. I just want my cream. You know what I mean? So we like, yeah, you're gonna get your cream. You. You sit up in the spot all day. You're gonna make your cream, you gonna get it.

[A]

And so who came up with the acronym?

[B]

A good friend of ours from the neighborhood. His name is Raid, right? And him and Method man is like. They was like, real close, like brothers. So when we was in the studio, right into it, he was there, and he just sat back and he just came up with Cash rules everything around me. And him and Meth, they put it together, and next thing you know, that. That was a hook. You know, at that time for me, I was still writing a lot of stories, you know, So I wrote Believe it or not, I wrote two verses for Cream. I didn't write my rhyme. Never started off. As I grew up on the crime side, I was writing about drug dealers in the neighborhood. Like, yo, I know this kid by the name of Jaganna Giganti, a Teflon don with a diamante. You know, the diamantes back in the days was like the, you know, the five series Benzes for us back then. And a good friend of mine was like, yo, that rhyme is cool. I think it's all right. Why you like the rhyme? Everybody else like it. He was like, it's cool. I like it. So he made me go back and change it. And when I changed it, I started to think before I wrote it, I'm like, damn. He said, yo, you need to rhyme about. That's something that we could relate to, that we're dealing with. Around what the fuck we wake up to every day. And that's when I came with. I grew up on the crime side, you know, the New York Times side.

[A]

So he. He just told you harder?

[B]

Yeah, he just told me to think harder.

[A]

Harder.

[B]

Yeah, he said, yo, Chef, you could. You could. You could be a little bit more creative.

[A]

Well, Cream is crazy because it became viral that. That saying, dollar, dollar bills, y'all became viral.

[B]

Like, spread across come from the dollar dollar bill, y'all Dollar bill y'all Dolla dolla dollar t la rock That's. Oh, wow. You remember that record?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Money, it takes money. Whatever he was saying back then, I haven't heard that. That was a serious record right there. Yeah, that's a old school record right there. My man Ra, they sat down and they came up with Cash Rule Everything Around Me. And it was a perfect. A perfect, you know, symbol of what we were trying to express, that we were always trying to get money, but we was dealing with certain things in our community that, you know, that we were trying to get past first to try to make some money. And. And it was a sacrifice. It was like, yo, you do this, you might be able to. To get out of it alive or you might not, you know. So that record, you know, wound up blowing up so big. It wound up being one of our biggest records. And it didn't have nothing to do with it. I guess to me, it didn't feel hip hop. It just felt like real realization. Like real is. Is we need to start listening. Like how you just played the ghettos, boy. You know what I mean? We trying to give off a message. A message. And that's what I think that people love about Wu Tang, is that we give out messages. We give out. We. We like an emotional roller coaster group. We can give you the Wu Tang Clan ain't nothing to with. And then we can give you the tears where it's like, oh, yeah, the. He's right. You know what I mean? Yo, we got to be careful. We gotta look at things for real. So all I had a lot to do with. With being around smart guys, you know what I mean? The. The smartness allowed us to write the way we wanted to write.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's contagious. It was contagious back then. It was.

[A]

Well, that's what I was saying about, like, really good lyrics and high quality rap. It's contagious.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because then everybody else's has to be tight, too.

[B]

Yeah. And you know when you come in with a group of guys that, yo, he kill it. You better come in.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You have to come in and. And say some. That makes sense. Like, I. I give a lot of credit to our first record. Right. Protect your neck. And I know that's one of your favorite shits. When Inspector Deck said a smoke on a mic, like smoking Joe Frazier the hell razor, raising hell with the flavor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That right there opened up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something with all of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I always tell Dick, I'm like, yo, Dick, you are like a. You are like a Scotty Pippen. You always going to hit if you get the ball in your hand, you know? And he did that. He created those. That first verse that you noticed me, I jumped right in behind him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rhyme's running. It built like Schwarzenegger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then meth came, then, you know what I mean? Everybody kind of like, that's what's so.

[A]

Amazing about all these killers, all these different voices, all these amazing lyrics, all on one song.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, but we wanted to. We wanted to show the world that each one of us had a style that was unreckoned. Each one of us can paint a picture within our own way that you will love all of us. So it's better to get us all now, you know, we'll sacrifice the little. The little look for the bigger look later.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and that was one of the situations where we had to dance a certain way to be like, okay, yeah, we'll take a little bit of money, but we know we're going to be able to sell, like you said. Yeah, give us those 50. We'll sell them now. We know we. You telling me you don't got the money, but you got the relationships? Okay, cool. Long as you got the relationship. Long as you got the money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We gonna go out there and we gonna Work to make it happen. But this is what's gotta happen. And, you know, I give all the credit to Steve Rifkin. You know, Steve was the guy that owned Loud Records back then. He was a part of RCA back then, and he believed in us. It's like, yo, I'll give y'all that deal. I'll give y'all that deal. And next thing you know, when everybody started taking off, now you got Method man over here, you got Jizz over here, you got Old Bastard over here. So we did something that was so new to the world that it's like.

[A]

Oh, from the outside, it felt different because it felt like a movement.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like Wu Tang was like a movement.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It was. It was different. It was like everybody tried the boxes.

[B]

Everybody tried to box this as a group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So even though we knew we were a group, in our minds, we looked at it, like you said, as a movement. Movement being created that would eventually spread out and hit all corners of everything. And that was the plan all the time. That was a premeditated plan because they wanted us to still be a group. He was like, nah, look, we sacrificing this and that, but we not going to box ourselves. So by us doing that, it kind of really paved the way for other groups and other artists and everybody to kind of, you know, follow this blueprint. So now you have, you know, these other other guys coming out and creating their own labels and bringing in artists that they wanted to do. So to me, this kind of made hip hop a little bit more interesting because it showed that artists were starting to get more smarter, which is important. And, you know, we didn't want to be just like you said, yo, just coming in and you sell your soul and you just stay there. Nah, we can't just stay there.

[A]

Is one of the hardest parts, getting the right beat.

[B]

Oh, the beat is everything, bro.

[A]

Because it seems like all you guys are very prolific. Everybody can write, but if you don't have a great beat and how many great beats can you make? Right? If you got an album, then another album's coming out next year. Like, whoa. You gotta have 16, 20 great beats.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you gotta pick from those beats what. What, you know, what goes, what song, and try different ways out. And you gotta make sure everybody shows up at the studio. How hard was that?

[B]

Shit was real, bro. I mean, I tell people all the time, like, number one for us. Like, you know, being around so many different lyricists. Lyricist guys. Beats are important. You know, I remember one time A fan asked me, he said, yo, what's the most important thing to you? The rhyme or the beat? He me up the whole day with that. I was up and. And I. And I answered him. I gave him an answer, like, probably like three or four minutes later. And I was like, you know what? Nobody never asked me that. I said, the beat. I said, you know, why the beat? Because the beat makes you think about what you want to say and what you want to get across. You know, anybody could make rhymes. I can have you sit with me for a month, and you could be an ill rapper. You. I can take you there. But to be able to have that combination factor of making a body of work or. Or that sound that you want, you need to have the right production. So a lot of times, Wu Tang wrote to whatever they felt. It's like how you can listen to protect your neck. And you get that energy from us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, you get a certain energy because of that production. Then you get this energy. When you get. You get a cream, you get that, right? So for me, I always tell people the beat is everything, you know, and us just sitting down and waiting for RZA to come up with something. Like, one thing about rza, he was so clever. You know, he had a team of guys that was around him that was assisting him to helping him come with different sounds. And, you know, he played with different things. And of course, you know, just having his ear for music and listening to other people's stuff, he was able to isolate himself away from everything and start brainstorming for us. So it's like a. He was like. He was like the Steelers back in the fucking 80s, you know what I mean? When they won four Super Bowls in a row, he was like that. When Terry Bradshawing on was playing Lynn Swan, he was in a zone. He was in a. He was really.

[A]

In his own way, especially because it became successful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a lot of motivation behind it, a lot of energy behind it. Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but without the lyrics, the beat is not the same. It's. I. I see from your perspective as a lyricist and as an emcee that you would think that the beat is more important because it's important to you. To get started.

[B]

To get started.

[A]

But damn, for as a fan, you have to lyrics. Just the beats by themselves. That's not enough. Look, no, no, no, no.

[B]

You know how many times me and RZA would argue about that? And I would tell him, like, yo, listen, bro, it took all of us. It Took. Yeah, you had that. You had this, we had that. That's what would.

[A]

It's a 50, 50 proposition.

[B]

I think it's more 60.

[A]

40. I think it's more 60 lyrics. Because the thing is, the lyrics are the thing that make you go, oh, like a great, great beat makes you move your head and gets you going. But lyrics make you go, oh, like rewind that.

[B]

Well, you know that, you know me is 50, 50 all the time. Because if I don't have nothing to give me that energy to write tight.

[A]

Right, right, right, right.

[B]

How can I give it to you if I don't have nothing?

[A]

It's a collaboration for sure. It's a collaboration for sure. But. But it's interesting that people would think, like, what's more important? Like, what's, what's more important? Breathing or having a heartbeat? Shut the up. Like, you need both.

[B]

You got to balance it.

[A]

You have to have both. But that's the. Where the collaboration comes in. Yeah, I had Scott Storch in here the other day.

[B]

Oh, word.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I love that dude.

[A]

He's so fucking talented. So out there, you know, his glasses on, just like you see, feeling the music, it's like a rare savant. There's dudes like that that are like beat machines, you know, like, he just feels it, it comes into his head and he feels it and just coming out of his fingers, you know.

[B]

Yeah, he's a super talented.

[A]

Oh, so talented.

[B]

I love him.

[A]

But like, that kind of guy is so special. And, you know, to team the kind of guy like that up with Dre or, you know, with, you know, 50 or any of these people that he collaborated with, it's like, that's, that's special.

[B]

And that's why, like I said, you know what I mean, you, you can't never front on the maestro, you know what I mean? Remember that? You know, DJing started it all, let's be honest.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what I mean? The DJ game, scratching records, important scratching, you know, they created a, A synergy to the artist to be like, yo, let me, let me try. Even, Even if you go back to. Like I said, look at, look at Quincy Jones, man. Look what the he did, right? Right. You know, look at, look at Frank Sinatra. Like, who the was handling his music, man, right? He was so clever. He needed a vibe, though. He needed something to. Who was that guy?

[A]

You ever hear Frank Sinatra when he was young?

[B]

Oh, he was.

[A]

Before he was smoking all those cigarettes. It is a super high pitched voice. It's crazy.

[B]

It's crazy, right?

[A]

It's crazy. You listen to the difference.

[B]

Difference.

[A]

Like, wow.

[B]

It had so much range, though.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

You know, somebody never really got. He never really got famous.

[A]

Well, I think the whole thing back then was Elvis or whoever it was, you know, whoever was the person that was in front everybody behind the scenes. Didn't really get that much respect.

[B]

Right. You know, but he was a talent.

[A]

Yeah. Who was that crazy dude that wore the wigs that shot that lady in la? He produced all the Beatles. He had that. He got tried for murder. And every day on in the courtroom, he'd wear a different wild wig. He created the wall of sound. What's his name? He was really insane. Phil Spector. Phil Spector. Back in the day, he was known for pulling guns on people. He pulled guns on people, stick them in their mouths. And he was a complete psychopath. Yeah. And he Jewish guy, I think, and he shot this lady in the mouth. Mouth.

[B]

Oh, was he Jewish?

[A]

I don't want any Jewish people mad at me. Jewish people get mad when you say someone's not Jewish and they did something terrible.

[B]

Hey, look, guys, we. We dated.

[A]

I'm just saying this with nobody. Talented, successful Jewish people in the entertainment business.

[B]

Be clear, man.

[A]

Yeah, but that dude, he. He was responsible for the wall of sound, the. The Beatles. Like, that was a big thing with him. Like, he was known for being a guy that would change people's music. Russian, Jewish.

[B]

Boom. Yeah. And he was from the Bronx.

[A]

From the Bronx, Yeah.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

Wild, wild boy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And shot some lady. Picked up some lady at a bar, took her back to his place and shot her in the mouth.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

Yeah. He would put guns in people's mouths. Like, he was known for threatening people. Like, you want to get out of this contract and just shove a gun in your mouth.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

What's that? He pulled a gun on Cher.

[B]

He pulled the gun out on Cher.

[A]

Recalls stopping Phil Spector in his tracks when he pulled the gun on her. He couldn't pull that with me. Right, right, right, right. We had this really strange relationship.

[B]

You don't say.

[A]

You don't say. You know. Well, it's like the music business at one point in time was run entirely by gangsters. Of course, that's the story about Hendrix. You know, the story about Hendrix is that his manager killed. Killed him. That's the conspiracy was that his manager killed him because it's more valuable for Hendrix to be dead. His music, he's a m. Maestro, like a one in a billion Year talent. And that they knew that they had all these recordings of him and they could kill him. And so that's what his girlfriend jumped off top of the building. Yeah. To own his. Because he was going to leave his management. His bodyguard wrote a book about it years later, and it just came out like, I want to say, like 10 years ago, wasn't that long ago. Whereas the bodyguard said, yeah, the manager killed him, killed Hendrix and threw the girlfriend off a roof.

[B]

Movie of them too.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they did a bunch of movies on. They need to do a real Wuang movie. I know Hulu had a series, but they need a real. Like Quentin Tarantino needs to do a. I know Quentin Tarantino. That's what I think. I think we talk Quentin Tarantino because he wants to do one more movie. Howell. He does a fucking Wu Tang movie.

[B]

The real Wu Tang, it's like Hulu.

[A]

Is great, but it has to be on Hulu. You can only get that so wild on Hulu, you know, like, for it to be real real, it has to be a movie.

[B]

Let me tell you something. I wrote a book, right? And inside my book I talked about how Q Tip, a good friend of mine, Q Tip, he had. He had me and Leonardo sit down.

[A]

Leonardo DiCaprio.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Leonardo DiCaprio.

[B]

Leonardo DiCaprio, right. And I remember Q Tip was like, yo, set up a meeting for you and Leonardo to meet in Brooklyn at this small pizza shop, one of Leonardo's favorite spots. And he want to talk to you. So, yeah, that's what's up. So me and Leonardo's, we started talking and he was like, yo, Q Tip was telling me that you was. He was thinking about trying to, you know, get guys together to create a movie. I was like, yeah, this is what I was thinking. So make a long story short, I set up a meeting with RZA myself, Leonardo's peoples in la. And I told Riz, I said, listen, before we do this Hulu thing, which at the end of the day, it was a Rhys's production thing or whatever he was doing. I said, I think we need to make a realistic, real life movie of us. Said it, it shouldn't be nothing that we should play with because people need to know our real story. So RZA entertained the conversation. But I don't know, for some reason, I guess he felt like he was committed to doing whatever he wanted to do with who?

[A]

Look, he might have already had a deal.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, like I said, at the end of the day, the clan.

[A]

Look at that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Is Jamie faster than. Jamie's the best.

[B]

It was that. It was that night, and I remember that I wish we could have been able to sit down with him. Cause the way I had him looking at it, it was almost like I told him, I said this would be like a smash. Like a slash of Goodfellas and Minister Society.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mixed in one, you know, to kind of talk about our story and whatever. He was super open. He was like, yo, Chef, what we gotta do? Yo, who do we need to talk to? But at that time, RZA was already in pocket on what he wanted to do. So I said, you know what? One day, you know, maybe I might get a chance to show my version of it. Because, come on, how many. How many Pablo Escobar movies we looked at?

[A]

Right, right, right. You know what I mean?

[B]

You got these guys telling it.

[A]

You got the front of communication still.

[B]

Be made, so it can still be made.

[A]

100. Just because there's a Hulu suit, that doesn't mean shit.

[B]

Right? But I think that at the end of the day, you know, God willing, we will really give you guys another taste of. Of really how. How we really see it, you know?

[A]

Well, I think it would be hugely successful, I think, for a music from. From a movie rather perspective.

[B]

Would you rather see it as a movie? A movie.

[A]

A movie. Or you do it like on Netflix, where you can get wild. Yeah, you know, do it like. You know, like Netflix has, like, Ozark. They get wild on Netflix. You can get wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's how it has to be. It has to be grimy. It has to be.

[B]

That's how you want it, right?

[A]

It can't be in any way ABC After School Specialified, you know what I'm saying? Like, it can't be. It can't be cleaned up through a filter. It has to be to be good, too. It has to be like good narrative. It has to be set up. The scenes have to be set. Because it's very hard to take an insane career of nine of the best MCs to get together under one mastermind with all these genius talents and they form this movement. And you're going to condense that to two hours.

[B]

Yeah, he was. He was like, yo, Ray, yo, yo, blah, blah, blah. But I think it could be done. That's what I said. I said, yo, look, come on now. I said, people do it all the time. I said, yo, look at prime example. Look at nwa. I thought NWA movie was dope, you know what I mean? Straight out of Compton. I thought they Did a good job. But that was Dre and Cube and, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you always gonna have somebody around that be like, yo, nah, that ain't it. That ain't. But it was so realistic that, that when I seen ours, it was like, all right, I get it. You know, Riz even said to your, you know, this is more for the younger generation to kind of gravitate to. And once everybody loved it, they loved it. So it was like, okay, y'all love it. We love y'all for loving it.

[A]

It's great. It's great. But hear me out. Opening of the movie. Rikers. Opening of the movie. You guys show up at Rikers to do the concert. Shirt. We're old daddy bastards inside. That's the opening of the movie. That's the opening of the movie.

[B]

You want all the real gritty. You want to put that, just get.

[A]

Everybody on the hook right away. And then you bring them back to the beginning. Right after that you, you know, you put the year, whatever.

[B]

That's how you make movies. You pick all, you pick all the greatest moments.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you start someone. And threading, right?

[A]

Yes. That's a no brainer for a Wu Tang movie. You start with Rikers. You start with Rikers, which is. What year was that? 95. What year is that?

[B]

When did, what year was old Dirty.

[A]

Bastard and Rikers Concert.

[B]

Yeah, I'm about to say, look up that.

[A]

And what year did you guys start? What was the very first year?

[B]

We started. We started in 90. 90. Late 92.

[A]

So you start, you start the movie with Rikers and then you bring it back to 92. Back to 92. That's what it is. That's what it is. I mean, just think about the incredible amount of talent. Not just, not just rap. Jizza's like a, a world champion caliber chess player. 99, 2000 or so. 99, 2000. Yeah. I got our interview. RZA talking about it. And doesn't Jizza have some degree in physics?

[B]

Smart man.

[A]

Doesn't he have some crazy degree?

[B]

Smart.

[A]

He's like, look that up, please.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you just. That alone in the movies, like, come on, this is real.

[B]

Yeah, this is just that people was looking forward to looking at.

[A]

Yeah, Think of a movie like that. Think of a movie that starts up with the gates opening and you guys going in, put your, put all your belongings in the basket. The whole getting frisked, checking everybody down, the guy reading you the rules, the warden telling you, do not go into the crowd. Do not do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

[B]

Yeah, we got you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Think about it. That's the beginning of the movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's an incredible opening for a movie, and it really happened. This isn't bullshit. This isn't a bunch of dorks sitting around a table coming up with some nonsense. This is some shit that you lived through that would be an incredible opening for a movie.

[B]

And it's just. And it's just so even incredible. Even more on how we connected, because like I said, everybody come from almost the same poverty bullshit, but everybody had different philosophies on how they felt their lives was going into, you know? You know, I tell people all the time, you know, my neighborhood was about making money. You know, Ghost neighborhood was about taking money. You know what I mean? Taking shit from you. You know, jza, you know, being one of the mcs that could have been down with the Juice Crew, you know what I mean? You know who the. The Juice Crew is? He turned it down. It's like they was the hottest back then. Master Ace Biz, Kane, Kuji rap. All these. All these dope mcs. They asked him, yo, we want you to come and get. Get down with us. He's like, nah, you know what? Now you. All these things I remember, like, yesterday, like, wow, you turned down the Jew Score crew? He was like, I love the Juice Crew, but I just was in. In this. This chamber right here. You know, us Dirty. Us with old Dirty. Like, yo, you know, Old Dirty always wanted to be like Biz Biz Markey. He had that personality, that charisma, that. That energy. So like you said, these are the things that I wanted to see each individual, like, you know, and like I said, you know, shout out Hulu man for. For. For doing a great job. But I do agree, like, you, we need another movie where it really defines who we are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, Rizza. You know Rizza, you know, that was his. His side of how he wanted to tell it. You know, it's a great story.

[A]

It's. It's great story. It's fine. The Hulu thing's fine. But I think there's something missing, and I think the something missing is a movie. Movie. It's a. It's got to be a movie. It's got to be a big screen, big thing, and it could be done first, man.

[B]

Yeah, I heard it first. I ain't have to. I have to argue with my brothers about.

[A]

I mean, just imagine. Imagine when ODB does baby, I got your money.

[B]

Oh, My God.

[A]

Come on. Imagine that. And that becomes this massive hit.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Massive hit.

[B]

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Do you know he had the most hits on out of all of us, right?

[A]

He was so talented, man, and so real. Remember when he was on MTV and they started talking about, like, what are you gonna. What are you gonna give? Who are you gonna give your money? He's like, I gave my money to nobody.

[B]

Like, he was like, yo, you gonna give back? He was like, yo, yo. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And everybody was crying.

[B]

Yeah, everybody loved him.

[A]

Real. Because it was so real. It wasn't like. Well, I think it's really important that we establish sort of a community. Fun. Shut the up. He was just having fun.

[B]

Make nothing, you know what I mean? But, you know, we always gave back in our own ways, of course.

[A]

Well, by existing, you give back. By existing, you inspire others. By existing, you. How many rap careers, how many hip hop careers were inspired by Wuang Clan and all the members? Countless. Countless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So many.

[B]

I say that we definitely had a. A piece of watching the new generation grow and, you know, kind of, you know, build their. Build their arc the way we built ours, you know, that's important, you know, to reflect on that. You know, back then, like you said, nobody wasn't giving motherfuckers this kind of money. Like, we was the first group that ever had a million dollar video.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I remember that day, me and RZA was coming up with the. With the storyboard.

[A]

What video was that?

[B]

Triumph.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

We did the triumph shit. It was like we came up with all this and it was like, yo, this is gonna cost a million dollars. We like, what the is. What's a million dollars? Like, do it, you know, and at that time, you know, Is this it?

[A]

Oh, let me hear this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, this is with my guy, Brett Ratner. By swarms of killer bees La Forest jungle. Been seen approaching from Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens and Staten Island. We see the bees coming through. And as we will be bringing you.

[A]

Up to the minute information, this just in.

[B]

Police are reporting that there's a man.

[A]

On top of a skyscraper ready to jump.

[B]

I'm told that he is possibly old dirty member of the Wuang Clan. The police suspect that there could be some connection between this old dirty man.

[A]

And the killer beast.

[B]

Socrates. Philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be dropping these mockeries lyrically Perform armed robbery flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me Battles guard showgun is both ultra violet shine blind forensics I inspect View through the future see millennium killer be sold 50 gold 60 platinum shackling the matches with drastic rap tactics Graphic displays melt the steel like blacksmiths Black Wu tackets queen bees easy bumble with patrolman tear gas thanks to function Heads by the score take flight inside a war ticks hit the floor die hard fans demand more Behold the bow stand.

[A]

Soldier control the globe Slowly proceed to.

[B]

Blow Swinging swords like so as the world turns I spread like germ the hard headed never learned old days of.

[A]

The clan and is it weird looking back now, does it feel almost surreal that you guys did it?

[B]

A little bit.

[A]

To me, yeah, it has to.

[B]

Yeah. To me, for sure. I mean, you know. You know, I always believed in my group, man. I mean, these guys is, like you said, very talented. Very talented. Sometimes we don't know our power when we come together, but we might be the only group that stuck together so long, you know, because we all feed off each other every time. So to be able to reflect back when we was in our prime, it was like we still didn't even give our best. It was almost like, okay, yeah, we gonna do it because we have to not do it, because we're all in a happy vibe, a happy moment. A lot of times we made great things happen out of nothing, you know, under pressure, might have been turbulence in the room, might have been an argument that happened that day, but we still managed to come out with something great out of that whole time of. Of that moment, you know, but that's.

[A]

What'S incredible, is that through all the disputes, you guys still. Yeah, yeah, that's because there's no way you're gonna have nine dudes and not have disputes.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Especially nine alphas, nine killers.

[B]

It's hard, man. It's hard because, you know, everybody has an opinion and, and you want to respect everybody's opinion, you know, But. But it made me think about sports and it made me think about how coaches and people outside of the group are so important. See how we were designed. We huddled up, but we never really had people around us kind of push the narrative more to show us our true power. So we made a lot of mistakes of being great, but. But still handling the business a little bit different from if we would have had some coaches, some guidance. Some guidance.

[A]

The problem was, back then, no one knew what was going on.

[B]

Nobody knew because it was so fresh.

[A]

It was so new. The whole genre had only existed for six or seven years, so it was emerging and it was chaotic and was so exciting, but there wasn't a Lot of. Of experts and how to manage it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like today, you know, you could. You could. You know, a young artist could come to a guy like you and say, hey, what should I do? Help me out. Like, what. What is. What's the path that you think that I should take? And you could give them real advice. Where back then, like, who knew?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Who knew wuang was going to work? They would have told you. That's not going to work. They can't get nine dudes in a. That's crazy. How are you doing that? That. But it worked.

[B]

But it worked.

[A]

It didn't just work. It, like, accelerated everybody, like, amplified all the voices. That's what was so crazy about it, is it just. It didn't just work. It worked better than being by yourself.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I tell people all the time. I don't. The clan, I think we all got better based on us as a collective.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Nobody couldn't have did it by themselves and be great.

[A]

Iron sharpens iron.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And that's what it is. Yeah. You guys had so many killers together, there's no way it could be great. That's what's incredible. It's like, it's so hard for people to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why it's never been done before, which is amazing. If you think about the history of hip hop. How many artists have come up and not one group has come together and made like, oh, they're just like Wu Tang. Not one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not one.

[B]

Yeah. Even when it comes to, you know, sales and, you know, each one of us was blessed to be able to go platinum and gold, but we talk about that, you know, sometimes when we all together, we. We laugh and we say, damn. You know, no other groups did what we did. Like, come with guys that. Everybody in the group went gold and platinum and this and that. And I can't. I couldn't name one person. They was like, yo, name one person. Name one group that did what we did at that level back then. I couldn't name it. You know what I mean?

[A]

Because, well, the ghetto boys branched out, you know. Scarface obviously went on to have a massive career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you see his little tiny desk performance?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Incredible. Incredible.

[B]

Yeah. Incredible. That's one of my greatest friends, too, man.

[A]

And so different than anything else. Like, the way he did it. Like, he adapted the lyrics to the environment. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was incredible. Incredible.

[B]

Scarface is a real God, too, man.

[A]

A real one of the all timers. One of the all time greats.

[B]

Yeah, all time greats. Adam come to your show?

[A]

I haven't yet, no. I'd love to have him on. I love that dude. I've had Willie on.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think that, like, there's so many amazing talents that came out of that 90s hip hop era that, like, for a young guy coming up, someone who's like, interested in a career in it now, it's imperative that you go back. Go back. You have to. You gotta explore the classics. You got to see what started this whole thing because. And you got to put yourself in this mindset. Like, it's hard to imagine my experience of it because you're not going to be able to have it. It's always been around, but for me it was like, when it came around, it was this totally new thing. It's totally new sound, totally new, like, avenue of music that existed. And everybody was like, wow. And all the young people were excited. Everybody was excited. Like, this is crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is so different than everything else, you know, and so for the people that are like, making a career in it now, like, oh, you know, I know there's like a tendency to think you're the man and everything else sucks. I'm telling you. Gotta abandon that. Abandon that thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go back and educate yourself, you know, because it's free. Just get on free. Go get on YouTube, get on Spotify, Educate yourself. There's so much classic from the 90s that you're. You're missing.

[B]

And all we were doing really was just like you said, just expression, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being in the studio, smoking a lot of weed, you know, and a lot of times when we were smoking and just vibing, it's like we were mentioning things that, you know, like today, like, prime example, you know, I own. I own a cannabis business in Newark called Hashtoria. You know what I mean? See you representing us, you know, we said in rhymes, like, can it be also simple? Yo, I want to have me a fat yacht and enough land to go and plant my own sass crops, but for now, it's just a big dream, you know, so we kind of like spoke things into existence that. That at the end of the day, like, you know, now as I sit here and I'm an owner of a cannabis business, I'm like, wow. We was talking about things, yo, my first joint and it went gold. I put it on my mother's, you know, my mother's living room wall, you know, we did that. So we were kind of like saying things that meant so much to us back then, but still dreaming of it being a reality. The next thing you know, what happened happens. You know, like how you said, you know, Jizza being so intelligent and talking about science and, you know, meth, you know, talking about certain things. And, you know, now today he's in the movie world and Riz is a director. And, you know, these were the things that were going through our minds as we were just smoking and listening to production and just saying, yo, what. What the. Right. Next. Next. Where do we want to go? You know? And I think that that is important as an artist is to dream and be creative. Don't sit in one box. Like, that's the. That just be driving me crazy. A lot with hip hop today. It's like, yo, it's just sounding too repetition, like, let's make it bigger. Let's. Let's take it over here. Over here, over here. Yeah, but it just. Sometimes it's just sitting in one box. Box where it's like, yo, come on, we gotta. It's not just that. It's about opening up, opening up the doors for everybody to be able to see so many sides. Like, now it just seems like, like the hip hop shit is just being controlled by one person that's saying, yo, we want y'all to stay right there. We want you to talk ignorant. We want you to not grow. We want you to just.

[A]

Whatever they think is gonna sell, sell.

[B]

Why is that? Why is that the case? I don't get it.

[A]

The same reason why they were trying to take the RZA and change him and turn him into something he's not. People always do that. They do that in comedy, they do that in podcasting, they do that in music. There's always some executive that thinks they know better and they're going to mold you and shape you and change you. And this is what we're going to do. We're going to hire an image team. We're going to do. It's all just. It's non artists interfering with art. That's what it is. It's when you have middlemen, you know, you have these people that profit off of your talent, and they think they're going to steer it in a way that's going to be the most profitable. They don't give a if you're, like, earnestly and honestly expressing yourself. That doesn't mean anything to them. They just want you to stay in that box because that's the box they're selling. And once it sells, once they don't want you to change it up. Remember when Ice Tea started a heavy metal band?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. Ice Tea, who played a cop on TV for like, 30 years. Years. He had a song called Cop Killer Body Count, and everybody wanted him to be the rapper. And Ice T was like, I'm gonna do a hardcore album. It was like, what?

[B]

I'm a cop kill.

[A]

It's like, what is this? What is this? This is crazy. Yeah, but it's like he just didn't listen. He's like, I don't give a what you say. I'm gonna do what I want to do, and this is what I want to do now.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And you have to give an artist that ability to do that. They have to be able to change it up anytime they want, want, whatever. Because whatever got them to the dance is going to keep them dancing. And they might dance to the beat of a different song, but it's going to be the same. The same person, that same creative force that created whatever you liked in the beginning. Well, you probably like this new direction they're going to go into, because it's going to be just as good. It's just like we all like different. Like you were saying, you like Billy Joel. We both like Cool G rap. It's very different. You wouldn't want to see the two of them at a concert together. Together, you know, but the. But that's what you have to give room for an artist. And these executives and these people that are profiting off of art without being creative. Their input's always terrible. It's always terrible because they don't have a vision. They don't really. Unless you're like a Rick Rubin. Like, one of those cats is just like super eccentric weirdo, genius dude who just knows what he likes and go, hold on, hold on. Do that again. Stop that. Stop, stop, stop. Do it again. Do it again. Do it that way. Way. Okay. Can you make it echo? Do it. Do it. Give me an echo.

[B]

So. But he's working with you because he's right. Right, right, right.

[A]

He's barefoot and. And doing yoga.

[B]

One of the geniuses.

[A]

Super weirdo, a Scott Storch type character. Yeah, you.

[B]

Those guys be great in their own way, though.

[A]

You know, they're artists, though. That's like. That's different. But when you get these suits and the suits get involved and they know that, oh, we made, you know, Raekwon sold a million and seven hundred thousand CDs doing it like this. So this is what we want from this one, too. We Want it to be the exact same way we want to do it like that. Do it like that again. Like, oh, what's this new thing you're doing? What's this new thing where you talk about discipline? No, no, no, no, no, no. You know, but that's one of the most important things about hip hop, too, is, like, songs inspire people to change their lives. Like. Like gangstar song discipline. Like, that song inspires you to have discipline. It's a great song.

[B]

Like I said, like, yo, this became knowledge to us, man.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, that's what I miss about hip hop is the. The knowledge factor. The, you know, raising our kids to be smarter and, you know, not hiding anything from them. Like, like you said, once you put that warning stick on there, don't look at it, they gonna look at it anyway. So why not not let them see what for what it is and then say, yo, look, you can make these choices, but you go that way, you know what you're getting. You go this way, you know what you're getting.

[A]

I think all it takes is someone today to do what you guys were doing and blow up, and then everybody would want to do it that way. If someone today became, like, this genius lyricist who's, like, pointing out things in society and became a huge artist.

[B]

But you think that music is still, or you think. Do you think the radio or play it?

[A]

I don't think the radio means jack anymore. I think what means something now is people sharing it. That's what means something.

[B]

How do they get it out there, though?

[A]

Someone put it on Spotify, put it on SoundCloud, put it on YouTube. Someone sees it, someone hears it. You send it to somebody, they send it to 10 people, and then it goes viral. That's what it's all about now. I think it's just, be undeniable. Be undeniable. Have some. Where you listen to it, Be confident.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have your friends, like, you got to listen to this. Listen this. Listen to this. Listen up. First. First lines. First lines. Yeah, yeah, listen to that.

[B]

That's how we always sold it anyway.

[A]

God, yeah. Come out of the gate with a haymaker. Boom.

[B]

This is what we do, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See, Damn, you talking like I feel about my album I'm about to drop. When's it going that way? Well, you know, I just. I just been working on this documentary, right. For the Purple Team. Let me just be honest with you. Take you back. I've been working on, you know, Only Built for Cuban Links is my. My. What's going on album, my Thriller album that I made 30 years ago. This year, 20, 25 will be 30 years. So what we done was we went back and decided to do a documentary about it, a real life film. So it's called the Purple Tape Files because remind you, you Only Built for Cuban Links was the name of the album. But being that I came with it as a cassette, everybody started to call this album the Purple Tape. So now, you know, we came back and we decided to do, you know, me and my team from my camp, you know, not this is, you know, the clan, of course the clan, but this is something that was my intellectual property that I said, yo, you know what me and my guys said down? My team sat down and said, yo, you need to do a documentary about this album because you can make 50 albums. People are still going to talk about Only Built for Cuban Links. So I said, damn, you know what? You right. So what I did was I said, you know what? Let me invest in it and kind of tell the story of what helped us inspire that album, would help us be a part of the culture and how it still allows me to still exist today. Like, if you see a lot of these guys today in the game, they still wearing Cuban link chains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? So who would ever thought that I'm calling my album Only Built for Cuban Link now. Everybody named Mother is wearing Cuban link chains today, 30 years later. So, you know, that been something that I've been working on and believe it or not, we've been working on it for 10 years. So I got over the 50 influential people that was in my life that was affected by that album to be a part of this documentary. So now this is all in the making. We didn't, we didn't actually go out there and start pitching it yet. We're finally getting ready to do it right now as we speak. As we speak. Once the new year kick in and all that, we will be ready to go out there and position ourselves to go do a deal with another network with this project. It's going to be ill.

[A]

It's a great idea.

[B]

You know what I mean? So my thing is to talk about it in a way to where the way we made the album, all the experiences, all the things that we went through, and eventually that, that would wind up becoming a movie later on. Because the storyboard of how I talk about it is going to blow people minds because it's like, damn, this is what you was going through. This is, this is how your mindset was. Because I Just want people to know that that album was made because I love hip hop, man. And, you know, we were in a position to make something golden. That at that time I was already thinking cinematic. I was already in my Martin Scorsese mindset. Because when I came in the clan, I was like, yo, I don't do all the karate. I don't know how to rhyme like that. I only know about Dr. Drugs and hustlers and trying to get from here to there and, and, and turn my life around for the positive, you know. So we talk about this in a documentary and we go through some of the songs and like I said, you know, I got some of my guys that, you know, we had, we had, you know, we had conflictions with some artists out there, like Big Biggie. Back then, everybody thought we had a beef and, you know, just. It becomes interesting. But the bottom line is that's what I've been working on alongside with, working on some other music. So I just said that, yo, let me get this done the right way first, and then I'mma, you know, drop some new music. So I got, I got definitely a new album getting ready to come out.

[A]

And when's that gonna come out, you think?

[B]

The new album, I say probably like between second quarter right now. Yeah. And I never even mentioned the name of the album, but I'll mention it on your show. The name of the album is going to be called the Emperor's New Clothes. You ever heard that Dutch folk tale? Yeah, you familiar?

[A]

Wears no clothes. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So that's going to be the name of it. Because I feel like the status quo today. Everybody follows. Nobody wants to be genuine no more. Nobody wants to call out. That makes sense. It's like, oh, if you believe it. Or I'm supposed to believe. I'm supposed to believe. Nothing that don't feel like what it's supposed to be to me goes back to like you said. And I'm listening to everything you saying about you have to do it from this way, that radio, whatever is going to stop you from being you, you know what I mean? So this is the same mindset that I'm thinking with my hip hop, my new album that's coming. Like, yo, I'm not gonna let you tell me that this is not what people still love. You know what I mean? I don't care. I'm just, I. I know what I know from coming up as a kid who loved hip hop and what inspired me. So I'm gonna have a ball this year, man. I got A lot of great things that I want to give the world, but yeah, that's going to be.

[A]

People still love it. And I'm telling you, these like young kids that I have at the comedy mothership, when I play them 1990s hip hop, they go, oh yeah, they just don't know yet. Yeah, yeah, they just don't know.

[B]

And we can't afford them because they wasn't alive at that time.

[A]

They got so much coming their way. They're getting inundated by all these new artists and all these new tickets.

[B]

There's so much going on.

[A]

There's so much going on.

[B]

There's so much going on. But you know, I always say that it's always a lane for people that love music, you know, I mean, I don't care. It's like you could be 50, you know. Today I'm sitting here as a 55 year old man that still have that kid in him to love, what helped me be who I am today. So I'm still at my best when it comes to making music, you know, like today the chef is more of an architect artist. Now I don't consider myself a gangster rapper or a funny rapper or I'm an architect rapper, you know. Cause I like to reflect on things about growth and development, you know. And when people hear this album, they're gonna be like, damn, like, yo, he still got it. I tell people all the time, don't ever think we're gonna lose that. That's like sitting here and saying Mike Tyson can't fight. When you know, at the end of the day he mean lose a bit when it comes to how he feels, that passion for boxing or whatever. I feel the same way with my music. So get ready. But then like I said, the name of the album is called the Emperor's New Clothes. Check for that.

[A]

I'm ready. I'm ready. Listen, brother, thank you very much for being here. It was a real honor, real pleasure.

[B]

You my guy, man.

[A]

Thank you. And thank you for everything you guys have done over the years. I've been endlessly entertained by Wu Tang Clan for a long time.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And I hope somebody listens to this and makes that movie. Make that movie. Do it.

[B]

We gonna make it happen. Do it the right way, we gonna figure it out.

[A]

I wish I made movies. I wish I was a movie maker. Cuz that's what I would, I would make it that way. I'd open up with that Riker scene.

[B]

Listen Joe, it's never too late for us to do what the we want to do.

[A]

Never too late.

[B]

Never too late.

[A]

Never too late. Thank you, sir.

[B]

Love you. Love you, too.

[A]

Thank you very much. Appreciate you. Bye.