#2313 - Jillian Michaels

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2313 - Jillian Michaels

Release Date: April 30, 2025

In episode #2313 of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan engages in a comprehensive and often intense discussion with wellness expert Jillian Michaels. The conversation spans a wide array of topics, including parenting in the digital age, controversial health trends, the COVID-19 pandemic and vaccine debates, obesity narratives, media influence, and societal perceptions of good versus evil. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key points, notable quotes, and overarching themes discussed throughout the episode.

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1. Parenting in the Modern Age

Discussion Points: Joe and Jillian begin by addressing the challenges modern parents face in navigating information from various sources. They highlight the skepticism parents have towards news media and the difficulty in changing long-held beliefs.

Notable Quotes:

• [00:24] Jillian Michaels: "My dad is an absolute lost cause. My mom is... open to the conversation, and she'll send me a bunch of different articles..."
• [01:04] Joe Rogan: "Their whole life they've been told that the doctor knows everything and that the news is always correct..."

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2. Health and Wellness Trends

Discussion Points: The conversation shifts to current health trends, including the use of peptides and testosterone replacement therapy. Jillian shares her experiences with family members benefiting from these treatments, despite initial skepticism.

Notable Quotes:

• [00:41] Jillian Michaels: "I've got them on peptides now, which is nice."
• [01:18] Joe Rogan: "A lot of times educated people defer to other educated people... assume that all the other experts in their field are also correct..."

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3. COVID-19 Vaccine Controversies

Discussion Points: Joe and Jillian delve deep into the COVID-19 pandemic, focusing on vaccine efficacy, side effects, and the perceived mishandling by authorities like Dr. Fauci. They express concerns about MRNA technology and its long-term impacts on health.

Notable Quotes:

• [03:01] Jillian Michaels: "It's disgusting. And there are zero apologies. No, zero course corrections..."
• [06:29] Joe Rogan: "It was a totally experimental gene therapy. And what Bret saying about it is if you don't aspirate, you're shooting it right into a blood vessel..."

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4. Obesity and the 'Healthy at Any Size' Narrative

Discussion Points: The duo critiques the "Healthy at Any Size" movement, attributing it to Big Food's influence in promoting pseudoscience. They argue that obesity is linked to numerous health issues and that the narrative surrounding it has been manipulated to downplay its risks.

Notable Quotes:

• [21:16] Jillian Michaels: "The psyop component of 'Healthy at Any Size'... It is a flat out lie."
• [25:05] Jillian Michaels: "Big Food hired registered dietitians to co-opt this concept of intuitive eating... they are exploiting somebody's psychology..."

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5. Influence of Psychoactive Substances and Cult Mentality

Discussion Points: Joe and Jillian explore the historical use of psychoactive substances like LSD in manipulating populations and fostering cult-like behaviors. They draw parallels between past experiments (e.g., MK Ultra) and current societal manipulations.

Notable Quotes:

• [54:07] Joe Rogan: "Operation Midnight Climax... They would have two-way mirrors and gave Johns LSD to observe them."
• [62:07] Jillian Michaels: "MK Ultra was using psychedelics to influence people and try to gain control... it's brainwashing people over decades."

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6. Media Narratives and Political Influence

Discussion Points: The conversation addresses how media and political entities manipulate narratives to serve specific agendas. They express skepticism towards mainstream media's objectivity, citing examples of biased reporting and the erosion of public trust.

Notable Quotes:

• [86:18] Jillian Michaels: "Corporations behave like a psychopath because they don't have humanity... they have an obligation to their shareholders."
• [90:28] Jillian Michaels: "There's a peptide called cerebralysing... they can't even explore it because they're concerned it'll impact pharma profits."

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7. Race, Identity, and Gatekeeping Information

Discussion Points: Joe and Jillian discuss the complexities of race and identity in contemporary society, touching upon topics like anti-Semitism, the oversimplification of racial issues, and the gatekeeping of information that challenges prevailing narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• [114:45] Jillian Michaels: "It's all a trap... people are willingly labeled with terms like transphobe, fat shamer, and anti-science to silence them."
• [117:37] Joe Rogan: "Hitler was not Jewish... rumors about his ancestry are unfounded and dismissed by historians."

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8. Immigration and Political Narratives

Discussion Points: The discussion shifts to immigration policies, critiquing the "open borders" approach and its purported impact on national security and social services. They argue that current policies favor political agendas over practical solutions.

Notable Quotes:

• [147:28] Joe Rogan: "It's a political ploy... open borders... they've let in millions of potential criminals."
• [150:28] Jillian Michaels: "Free needles... loopholes Gavin Newsom created to give them healthcare."

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9. Good vs. Evil in Modern Society

Discussion Points: A significant portion of the podcast delves into the philosophical debate of good versus evil within human nature and societal structures. They reflect on historical atrocities, the susceptibility of humans to manipulation, and the importance of maintaining moral integrity.

Notable Quotes:

• [83:39] Joe Rogan: "A lot of darkness in human history... we have to learn from these horrific lessons."
• [117:46] Jillian Michaels: "We’re so vulnerable to influence... human beings are so easily manipulated."

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10. Conclusion: Navigating Complex Narratives

Summary: In concluding the episode, Joe Rogan and Jillian Michaels emphasize the necessity of critical thinking, community support, and resilience in the face of pervasive misinformation and societal challenges. They advocate for embracing positive change while remaining vigilant against manipulative forces.

Notable Quotes:

• [137:15] Joe Rogan: "You have to make your side more attractive... wish you had those characteristics and go, why don't I?"
• [146:54] Jillian Michaels: "Reality we haven't experienced isn't credible... strive to be undeniable through positive actions and community support."

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Final Thoughts

Episode #2313 presents a frank and unfiltered dialogue between Joe Rogan and Jillian Michaels, tackling some of the most contentious and complex issues of modern society. Their candid exchange encourages listeners to question mainstream narratives, seek truth through personal research, and foster communities grounded in support and mutual understanding.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this summary are derived from the transcript provided and do not necessarily reflect the assistant's own opinions.

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan podcast.

[B]

Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

[A]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Yes. Good to see you.

[B]

You too.

[A]

We were just talking about boomers, about parents. Parents that they don't want to believe anything other than what they're getting from the news.

[B]

It's been a challenge. My dad is an absolute lost cause. My mom is. Is now open to the conversation, and she'll send me a bunch of different articles, and then she'll allow me to disseminate from my perspective. But it's been a rough ride.

[A]

Yeah, I've got them on peptides now, which is nice.

[B]

Same.

[A]

And I've got my stepdad on testosterone replacement, which is nice. And he's seeing benefits of those things, so it's like they're slowly starting to incorporate. So some of these things. But their whole life they've been told that the doctor knows everything and that the news is always correct and anything contrary to the news is bullshit.

[B]

But arguably, when our parents were our age, it was reliable.

[A]

I don't think so. No, No. I think it's always been compromised. I just think there was no alternatives.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

That's what I think.

[B]

My mom is a psychoanalyst. PhD. This is a very educated, thoughtful woman.

[A]

And sometimes that's the worst.

[B]

No, no. She's. I would argue against in this case. I do appreciate people who see flaws in psychoanalysis, but I've learned a huge amount from my mom in this. In this area. And she also. She majored in journalism before changing careers to psychoanalysis. And so for her to even wrap her head around the fact that journalism can be compromised is almost inconceivable.

[A]

Right. I didn't mean psychoanalysis is bad. What I meant is that a lot of times educated people defer to other educated people, like they're an expert in their field, so they assume that all the other experts in their field are also correct, and any heretic is just a fool.

[B]

I would happen to agree with that point. Yeah. That's why we were talking about Fauci on the way in. And both of my parents could arguably canonize the guy, you know, or now I think I've broken through with my mom, but it has taken me since. Since your episode with Bret Weinstein in March of 2020. I have been working on it. We're getting there, though. We're there. We are there. It's been five years.

[A]

Isn't that crazy? That was five years ago.

[B]

It was like yesterday. I'll never forget it.

[A]

Five Years ago. And I remember when that episode came out, people were freaking out, like, what are you doing? What is Brett doing? This is bullshit. You're gonna get us all killed.

[B]

It made perfect sense to me.

[A]

Well, he was right, clearly. And yet still no apologies, no corrections. Except the government website, the COVID 19 website is now up. And this has to be because of Bobby Kennedy. Hey.

[B]

I mean, the New York Times is like, ah, looks. Looks like this came from a lab. It's like you really?

[A]

Well, the best part about it was that, like, we were misled. Yeah, you were misled by you, you fuckers. I know you did it isn't that you did it.

[B]

It's disgusting. And there are zero apologies. No, zero course corrections. And unveil this information as though they are the purveyors of truth. Guys, we got a headline.

[A]

You're a little late. You're a half a decade late.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You know what's really interesting? We've been talking about this a lot lately that imagine if the roles were reversed and if podcasters were the ones yelling at everybody to go out and take these experimental shots, and then they were experiencing all these complications and all these side effects. Mainstream news would be chastising us, like, how dare you give people the advice to go out and do that. You're responsible for these people having all these side effects and all these unnecessary deaths. And all these people that would have had no problem with COVID You encourage them to take this vaccine. And they had strokes and they had this and they had that. They'd be calling for us to get shut down.

[B]

I actually did that. I did not know any better. And I was pitched a vaccine scientist. And I thought like, oh, this is great. Yeah, come on the show. I didn't know the vaccine was gene therapy. I had no idea. So I knew it came from a lab that made perfect sense to me. And I was like, oh, well, this is very clear. It's not, you know, from a wet market, but I was. Someone reached out to a producer of mine and said, you know, we've got this person who was a scientist who worked on the vaccine that wants to educate people. And I thought I was doing this major public service. I have had to apologize for that podcast, and I've left it up.

[A]

What was the scientist?

[B]

I cannot. Jo. I cannot remember her name. She was actually young. And the reason I remember that she was in her 30s is because she told me, oh, this tech has been around for 30 years. And I thought, but you're only. You're like 35. No, no, no. We've been evolving this technology for 30 years. And you see all of these trials for safety, it's just bureaucracy. I didn't understand what it meant to push something through that emergency use loophole at the time. I didn't understand the difference of, oh, this is a dead path and this is a live pathogen and we're worried about adjuvants, but this here, this is gene therapy. I didn't even begin to comprehend what that was, what it meant, or the fact that we would fuck around with something that was experimental. And the scariest part is I had been talking with a woman named Brianne Dresden who was injured during the AstraZeneca COVID 19 trials. And the NIH was studying all of the people that had been injured during the vaccine trials as they rolled out the vaccine with no concerns and lied about every component from it stays in the shoulder, it's out of the body in 24 hours until you find out, no, it's coated in lipid nanoparticles and it can cross the blood brain barrier. Oops.

[A]

Now they're finding out that people can still produce spike protein because the injections for over 700 days and you can shed. Supposedly you give it to your partner. It's insane, crazy.

[B]

And now they're. I mean, I'm certainly not an expert in MRNA tech, but now we're fast tracking other vaccines that utilize the same technology. And I know for one, I don't think I'll take an MRNA vaccine ever. Scares the crap out of me.

[A]

Well, you've heard Brett Weinstein talk about the flaws and just the technology itself and that, you know, the fact that when it gets into your body, if it gets especially, you know, the thing is nobody aspirated, right? They didn't inject people and pull back to make sure they're on a blood vessel, they just plunged it. Including when they. They did it live with Biden on television, which I don't think that was a vaccine. I said to this day people are like, yo, what conspiracy theorist? Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm telling you right now, I think it's a conspiracy. I don't think they would take a chance in injecting a fucking 80 year old man when you know that you have to like stay there at the clinic for 20 minutes in case you drop dead. Yeah.

[B]

You know, my wife's friend, her friend's son actually had the COVID vaccine and the flu vaccine on the same day.

[A]

Oy.

[B]

He did supposedly stay for 15 minutes. Got in the car, must have passed out or had a seizure, hit a tree and died.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Had a crazy reaction to it. I know. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to promote this anti vax position, but.

[A]

But that's not a vaccine, you know, Exactly. Calling it a vaccine is fucking crazy.

[B]

That's exactly it.

[A]

It was a totally experimental gene therapy. And what Bret saying about it is if you don't aspirate, you're shooting it right into a blood vessel. If you're shooting it right into a blood vessel, it could go to all sorts of areas of the body where the body's going to attack it like it's a disease, particularly the heart. And it's like, this is why you get myocarditis, because the heart doesn't heal, which is why you don't get heart cancer. Your heart just scars over. So people have these inflamed enlarged hearts and then diminished cardiovascular function. And he was talking about this way earlier than anybody else. And there blood on his hands, he's killing grandmas. And the vaccine saved millions of lives. People say that all the time. They've saved millions of lives. Like how if people still got Covid. Not only that, they got more Covid than people that didn't get vaccinated.

[B]

I am still having this exact debate actually with my mom, who's like, but honey, it saved millions. And you know what's crazy? Have you actually tried to Google that information? Because you can make a case for that based on what will come up on Google. And she's like, but look, right here it says it saved millions of lives.

[A]

But you know, it's only based on the idea that those people would have died if they didn't have Covid. Right? The problem is you're gonna get Covid anyway. So that data's bullshit. Not only that, even when people got Covid, 99.07 of those fuckers lived.

[B]

I just pulled that up. I was trying to illustrate that point. I was like, do you realize that I think the percentage of mortality with this is like 1%. And when you look at it, it's considerably less 0.03, all the way up till you hit about 80 years old. And then it's like, well, 1% or so, 1.5 maybe in 80 year olds or morbidly obese or severely autoimmune, you know, immunocompromised.

[A]

When you have 330 million people in this country and then, you know, you look at that 0.3%, that starts looking like a lot of people. But those are just people that are on death's door. That's the reality. Metabolically unhealthy, obese, diabetes, all sorts of problems. Cancer, leukemia on chemotherapy. Those are the people that died.

[B]

I remember when Bill Maher was talking about how it was people who. There was a study that came out of the cdc, and forgive me because I don't remember the exact percentage, but it was upwards of 80% of the people who died or had severe cases of COVID were obese or overweight. And this is when you know you could be healthy at any size. That psyop was in full effect.

[A]

That must have drove you crazy.

[B]

Oh, I was. I was completely unraveling. People ask me, like, what happened? You were a good liberal.

[A]

You're still a good liberal if you go back to the old definition.

[B]

I haven't changed. I go issue by issue with my friends and I'm like, you show me where I've shifted my position on any issue outside of Trump. I used to think he was hit larian and he was gonna round up all the gays, and we were all fogged. None of that happened. I thought, Russia, Russia, Russia. I thought that was real. So as new evidence came to light and I managed to survive his first term intact along with my gay relationships, I somehow started to feel that maybe a lot of that was bullshit propaganda. But outside of that, not one of my positions has changed. Not one. And I find that arguably the right is more welcoming and more tolerant. Now I can sit down and have a conversation with Matt Walsh and debate gay marriage in a civil fashion. And I ended up, again, like, I bring up Bill because I work with Bill in some capacity on his podcast network and I was having to defend him on Piers Morgan because he was sitting down with Trump and they called him a bigot and a racist and anti science because he was going to sit with Trump. I'm like, well, where's the outrage that he sits down with Newsom? I hate that guy way more.

[A]

Piers Morgan was saying this or they guess not Piers.

[B]

Yeah, Piers was awesome.

[A]

The guest Piers show is Maury Povich 2.0. No, it's a better version of Maury Povich.

[B]

I kind of love it, though. And I love when I get to do it. Because you're allowed to act unhinged. You still have to make your points. Yeah, but it is a bit. It is theatrical. But sometimes I think when you are able to be so theatrical, it goes viral. And the point that you're trying to make Is arguably seen by more. Unless it's a platform, of course, like yours.

[A]

But, yeah, he does a good job of that. I just don't think it's a good way to discuss ideas.

[B]

You're not wrong.

[A]

But it's really good. As far as, like, going viral, it's great.

[B]

I'm not wrong about that. I still find it fun, though. Cause you. What you hold in for all those civil conversations where you're just. You're biting your tongue, you're trying to communicate calmly, articulately. Here you can just unleash your hypocrisy is disgusting. It's everything I swallow in every conversation with all my friends from California. And you can just let it rip and freaking tear into people because they started it. Yeah, they started the fight.

[A]

I don't like that. I don't like doing that. So I don't. I don't. I'm not interested in that.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

I'm not interested in that kind of conflict. I don't want. I don't want to talk to people like that. I don't like it.

[B]

I understand you. You are like a very gentle soul. I. I watch you sometimes, and you're just. You're so not sometimes. I watch you often, and you're a very gentle soul. And sometimes I think, God, toxic masculinity like you. So that whole notion, all of the men in your space tend to be far kinder and softer. And it's the women that are savages. I mean, I happen to love. I love Megyn Kelly. I think she's brilliant, but God damn, I never want to be on the wrong side of her.

[A]

Yeah, she's ruthless.

[B]

She'll rip your head off and, like, eat your heart. Do not fuck with that woman. You know? So anyway, I think that some of the women in the space are genuinely more aggressive than the men.

[A]

Well, do you think that's because they have to to get respect? Like, why do you think that is?

[B]

No, I don't think so. And I find that it's more respectable when you speak in the fashion that you do. And I've tried to really curtail that behavior throughout every other aspect of my life, personally and professionally. Whether I'm fighting with the contractor on my house, I try to lower the octaves of my voice, or I'm trying to win somebody over in a debate. But I think, you know, Joe, honestly, I think because it's entertaining.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good thing.

[B]

And it's a competitive space. Yeah, I really think that's it and it seems to work.

[A]

So sort of. But why am I number one, then? Cause I don't do it. Cause that. See, that's like the counter argument.

[B]

Fair. Here would be my answer. Because you can lick everything in the fridge. And what I mean by that is you don't have a niche.

[A]

Lick everything in the fridge.

[B]

Seriously? I'm not kidding.

[A]

I've never heard that expression.

[B]

You can talk about anything and everything and it's fascinating. And people tune in for it. They don't come here because they want to hear about politics or they want to hear about health, or they want to hear about fucking aliens. They come here because they want to hear about all of it. And they want to hear what you think. Think about all of it. So it's not really interesting when someone else does it because they're not there to see what that individual thinks about the subject matter. So when I turn into Megyn Kelly, it's like. Or tune in. It's because I want.

[A]

Don't turn into her.

[B]

No, I don't not. I'm not the fuck. No, dude, I'm messing with her. She's a lovely person and she's been nothing but lovely with me. But I do, I'm sure, as mentioned, I am not interested in being on her bad side. However, when I tune in, it's not because I want to see her reaction or her opinion on something. It's because I want to learn what is the counter argument to deporting this guy Kilmar, Abrego Garcia. I'm like, okay, Steel, man, that argument for me. And then tune into something else and try to disseminate what the truth is. And she's, I think, a constitutional attorney. So I feel like I'm getting great information with you. You're not just learning about something, but you're also curious what you think about it. If you're gonna go, ah, bullshit. Or if you're like. If you do the wow, you know, you wanna see what you think about it.

[A]

Yeah. I just think we could all do with a little less yelling at each other.

[B]

You're totally right.

[A]

I just don't think it's good for anybody. Every time I've engaged in it, I feel bad for the rest of the day.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Even if I win? Yeah. I don't feel good. I just feel like, ugh, I don't like that. I don't like it.

[B]

What if they deserved it?

[A]

I think you should be nice until it's time to not be nice. And generally that's like extreme violence. That's my feeling. That's my feeling. You know, like, be nice up until you're literally trying to incapacitate a person.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

I feel like I don't think we have to do that. And I think the only time you have to do that is when someone's completely psychotic. 99.999% of the time, you're better off serving you and that person better by.

[B]

Just being nice and calm and making a point in an intelligent fashion. You're absolutely right.

[A]

Yeah. Not being married to your ideas either. Also, you know, not like taking in opposition to your ideas as an opposition to you as a being. You know, it's. These are just ideas. Like, if someone thinks that you're incorrect. If someone thinks I'm incorrect, I'm like, well, tell me why. What do you. What do you think? Why do you think that? Where'd you come to this conclusion? What. What was the tipping point for you? Like, what is it? Like, tell me what it is.

[B]

It's rare, though. I was just actually talking to Mike Rowe about that. Why do we hold on so fastidiously to our dogma? And it honestly. Because it doesn't feel right to have somebody say, I told you so. I will do the mea culpa, and I have a million times, but it is certainly more rare. I mean, how often do you see a walk back or a course correct? Not often. And I know that, you know, when people wag their finger at me, are you happy this is what you voted for? You want to defend things that arguably you may agree with them on, right? And I'm like, don't, don't, don't do it. Just. Do you. Do you see their point? If so, acknowledge you see their point. And then I still feel the need to play the lesser evil game. Even when they're right, they're still wrong. Because when I weigh out, you know, the choices I had, even though you're right on this issue, you know, I'm right about my choice ultimately, because more things went the way I wanted them to than the way I didn't. It takes a lot of ego strength to admit where you're wrong. And I just don't think a lot of people have that. And there is a tribalism with everything, whether it's workout trends, diets, for God's sake. I mean, we've seen this kind of dogma in health and wellness for years. It's no fun to say you were wrong. And in some cases, it can have professional repercussions.

[A]

For people, sure. Did you experience any professional repercussions when you're pushing back against this healthy at any size stuff?

[B]

How much time do you have on that one?

[A]

Well, let's go into it because that to me was so fascinating to me, the concept of fat shaming, which, look, I don't think you should hurt anybody's feelings, but I think at a certain point in time, sometimes hurting someone's feelings causes actions and hurting someone's feelings with the truth. And you can give the truth to someone lovingly. You know, you could say, look, I care about you. This is why I want to tell you. You're a fat fuck. Like, you really are. You're disgusting and you need to lose weight and you've. You're fully addicted to food and you don't understand what it's doing to your body and you're being lied to by all these other people, like these fat doctors. Like, there's some lady in the UK who calls herself the fat doctor. I'm like, great lady. You're just overwhelmed with inflammation. I could just see it looking at you. This is crazy that you're giving this advice out when you're. You can't walk up a hill. There's no way, like, you're so unhealthy. And this idea that shaming people is worse than telling them the truth, that's going to make them feel bad, maybe temporarily, but you could do it with kindness. And then that person can make choices that will be. And then you encourage them. Like, I'm so glad you changed your diet. I'm so glad you cut out this and cut out that. And now you're doing well and you've decided to walk 10,000 steps a day and you decided to start exercising a little bit. You know. This episode is brought to you by Doordash this Mother's Day. Why give mom only flowers when you can give her flowers? Plus a real break for a limited time, use code JOE50 to get 50% off up to $15 value when you spend 15 or more on local flor convenience, grocery and retail stores. On DoorDash. And starting May 9, Mother's Day weekend, your flower order will unlock credit towards select gifts that'll take cooking, planning and more off mom's plate. Make Mother's Day special with doordash terms apply.

[B]

You've given me a lot to tackle here, so let's, let's start with.

[A]

Start for the professional stuff.

[B]

The. The psyop component of healthy in any size. This is a big food narrative. This has been proven. Even the friggin explain Big Food narrative.

[A]

What you mean by that.

[B]

Okay, so Big Food, put simply hired a bunch of registered dietitians to co opt this concept of intuitive eating. I'm dead ass serious with hashtags like derail the shame. And they paid them and they put out all of these posts and went to all of these conventions and promoted the narrative that you can be healthy at any size and it's just a flat out lie. It is a flat earther conversation. It is pseudoscience at its best. There's no truth behind that. There is a robust amount of data that show us being obese is associated with like 170 comorbidities. This is a non factor. It's been debunked. We know this for a fact. So when that happens, what they're doing is essentially placating someone who already feels now I can attack what's going on or address rather what's going on with an individual who is that size. And it is largely psychological. Once you are past the point of dad bod. You know what I mean? Like oh, I work three jobs, life beat me down, it's a food desert and I'm 40 pounds overweight and I've let myself go. This is a different animal. When you're dealing with somebody who is 50 plus pounds overweight, there is a psychological component. So the first thing we need to do is make them aware that there is problem without question. But you can do it without shame. Giving them facts of listen, this is unhealthy. And because you are such a valuable individual, I want you to understand this because only from a place of feeling truly worthy are you able to facilitate a change. You don't work out because you hate your body, you work out because you love it. So it doesn't need to be a shaming. There's no shame there. To be honest Joe, I know that people claim there is because you pointed out this vulnerability or this flaw in the person. But we all have flaws and vulnerabilities. People who are overweight simply wear them so it's easier to judge, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So by educating them first and then without question, I like to give people or when I was able to do the work hands on that rock bottom moment because they are overweight, because it is providing them with something extraordinarily significant. And I can give you examples should you need them. But I promise you that one time or another people turn to addictions, in this case food, because it means their psychological survival. So put Simply, the most obvious example would be a person who was incested, molested, raped, puts on way to desexualize. That's just one example of many, but it's easy to illustrate the point. So whatever this thing is, providing them is the part that's so hard to let go of because unconsciously it's terrifying. And you gotta first show them this is why we need to change. And then you gotta give them that path towards change and you gotta make it harder. You gotta make them feel the pain. Could be physically, it could be psychologically, but it doesn't have to be shameful of the way they've been living so that the work and the sacrifice associated with change is less painful than continuing the negative and destructive habits. You don't have to shame them. I know what the message seems like it is, but it really isn't.

[A]

Well, the whole term fat shaming is pretty recent, right?

[B]

Yes, very. Let's get right back to when I was. You asked me what I lost.

[A]

Intuitive eating is a fascinating phrase. And the idea that this is by the same people that used to be in charge of tobacco.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

This, this is what's really crazy. These are the RJ Reynolds and these tobacco companies bought all these fast food, processed food companies, and they use the same tactics that they use with that to push terrible foods on people.

[B]

Well, they literally have a team of multidisciplinary scientists that work around the clock to figure out how to get people to not eat just one and then put it in a commercial. It's like literally in broad daylight. Look what we're doing to people that.

[A]

You can't eat just one.

[B]

Just one, you know. But what they're doing is they are exploiting somebody's psychology and they're hijacking their biology with this food without question. And this is why you have seen rates of obesity skyrocket from 70s when it was like 5% of the adult population was overweight or obese to 74%. We're all. Is a quantum leap in genetics. That's, that's a big pharma psyop of like. No, no, this is all genetic. You're. You're genetic. Genetically obese. Where was. What happened? I've never seen such a quantum leap in genetics. How come we were genetically obese in the 70s? Like, what was that tipping point, if you will, that created the cascade of obesity over the last five decades? Of course it's exactly what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, it's ingredients in food. It's really simple.

[B]

That and also how they engineer the environment. And you're surrounded by it. You can't escape it. Remember the days when you weren't allowed to have food at a bookstore? And now every friggin bookstore has a cat 600 calorie drink. You are surrounded. There is nowhere you can go right now where food is not omnipresent. In particular this crappy food. And they generally do it through government contracts and subsidies. So it's at your schools, your hospitals, anywhere you go, you will find this garbage food. So even if you have that moment of willpower, which is arguably this fleeting moment of bravado, if you're constantly surrounded by it, you will give in. Managing your, your environment is a large part of helping someone be successful. It's. It's a band aid. Right. If you're dealing with sexual abuse, for example. But controlling the environment is definitely a component in helping them. You can't control the environment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Can't control the narrative. You can't control what's in the food. And it's all by design. It's not just the crap in the food. It's how they control the narrative around it and how they engineer the environment and how they systematically shut down the people that point it out as fat shamers, for example, or racists. Yeah, it's another big one.

[A]

Yeah, it's a big one. Or transphobes or. Yeah, fill in the blank. But it's, it's fascinating to me that hospitals fall into this. A friend of mine was visiting his friend who has prostate cancer and this guy is in the hospital being treated for cancer. And then he went to look at what they're feeding him in the hospital and they're feeding him applesauce, which is just loaded with high fructose corn syrup, apple juice or orange juice, which is not even juice, it's concentrate. It's all bullshit. And then some kind of a fucking sandwich which is made out of this processed wheat bread.

[B]

Yeah. It probably has in that meal alone 100 plus chemicals. I think I'm being conservative.

[A]

Yeah. At a hospital.

[B]

It has to do with government contracts.

[A]

It's so crazy that hospitals, their diets and hospitals are co opted.

[B]

I can't even. My kids, who I know will be watching this. So I love you guys, it's okay. But they stopped packing their lunches. And I was like, guys, why are we not packing our lunches anymore? And I would watch all the crap that I would buy go bad in the pantry. And my son ratted my daughter out and he's like, she's eating breakfast at school. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, the sugar cereal? Who's having that at school? And I was like, what? What are you talking about? Even my kids, who know better, it's, it's.

[A]

But isn't that a rebellion against mom, though? Which kids definitely do. Like, my, my youngest daughter, she jokes around about, she's like, ooh, seed oils. I love seed oils. She'll have salad dressing with seed oil. And she like, mocks me. I'm like, okay, you eat whatever you want, but just know what it is.

[B]

They. I honestly think the kids know what it is. And I tried to give them enough freedom now at these ages, you know, 13 and 15, to make some of their own decisions. So not everything is a pushback, but I truly think there is an addictive component.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

And she just. It's like, I'm so good at home. And I don't mean to associate. Not good, but I eat well at home, let's put it that way. And you know, just at school, I'm just gonna do this at school. And the problem obviously is when she goes off to college, I won't be able to control the environment at home. And I'm like, honey, okay, hold on. There's a. Forgive me. There's a like 20 year old influencer named Bhad Bhabie. I think, Joe, she saw this, okay? She saw this girl.

[A]

That's the lady from Dr. Phil. Catch me outside.

[B]

Catch me outside. So she saw this girl, I think, when she was like nine and has followed Bhad Bhabie. Bhad Bhabie now has cancer.

[A]

What?

[B]

I believe so. And for real, according to my daughter. Exactly the point, though. That's exactly the point. And so now I can say to my kids, this isn't just mom's generation, which how come. Here's something else to look at. My mom is 76. None of the public figures in her generation got cancer. You didn't see Susan Sarandon or Sigourney Weaver or Meryl Streep. None of them got cancer. But in my generations, like Maria Menounos, Christina Applegate, something's going on with Angelina Jolie, Kate Middleton. In my generation, the canary is dead in the coal mine. It's not even a question of the negative impact. If we're not looking at statistics, if we're just looking from an observational perspective, it's in the news every single day. Someone's dealing with cancer. Olivia Munn. Now you're seeing 20 year olds deal with this. And I was able to point to that, to my daughter and say, this is the shit that I am talking about. She's five years older than you.

[A]

What does that lady have? Does it say? Yeah, she's claimed that she's got a form of leukemia, I believe. But people, yeah, they debate.

[B]

They doubt her.

[A]

Yeah, for sure, they doubt her. She's a little bit kooky, right? Sure.

[B]

There's still. You still can point to the fact, even if it's not Bad Baby, who. Who may be lying. I'm not sure.

[A]

Using that name. Bad baby.

[B]

Is it Bad Baby Bad. What the. I said Bad Bunny the other day and my kids are like, no, that's the rapper.

[A]

She says she insisted she'd been cleared for surgery. She has no regrets about her cosmetic tweaks. What does a cosmetic tweak have to do with leukemia?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think people are. They're not going to perform plastic surgery on a cancer patient. What? She's getting plastic surgery? Is it. What is this article about?

[B]

Go look at the chronic myeloid leukemia piece because that's the part I know about.

[A]

She. Oh. Break silence on claims she lied about having cancer after being slammed for vaping.

[B]

Oh, God. Did she lie about it?

[A]

That's. I was just showing you that. Go back up.

[B]

I don't know, because I thought she had like a wig and she lost her hair.

[A]

21 says currently battling chronic. How do you say that? Myoid. Myeloid leukemia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Criticized for getting cosmetic surgery while battling disease, which is pretty crazy. Is that really true? That's the part that she underwent plastic surgery and challenged rival Alabama Barker to a physical fight, all while battling leukemia.

[B]

Apparently Alabama Barker did not show up for that fight because my daughter was very disappointed.

[A]

What? They were going to meet somewhere and.

[B]

Actually meet, I think in Calabasas. And throw down.

[A]

Oh, boy. The Calabasas throw down. The classic used to be an Old west shootout. Now it's a Calabasas throwdown.

[B]

So there's a hair pulling and all kinds of stuff, but I can tell you with certainty is that the rate of early onset cancer diagnosis in people 18 to 49 has gone up 79% over the past two decades. So if in fact Bhad Bhabie is being untruthful and deceitful, those statistics are real.

[A]

Yes, those statistics are real. And including the big leap since the COVID vaccine was rolled out, you know.

[B]

I don't have any information on that.

[A]

There was a doctor that was on the Tucker Carlson show the other day that is saying he's seeing pancreatic cancer in kids for the first time ever in his career. Said, my entire career, I never saw pancreatic cancer in children.

[B]

Okay, I want to play devil's advocate to that argument and simply say the statistic that I just cited, I believe came out in 2019. So this is pre Covid.

[A]

Oh, I'm not doubting that. Diet and environmental factors. I think there's a host of different things going on. I agree for sure. There's pesticides and herbicides. That's a major factor. You know, when you look at the fact that 90 plus percent of people have Roundup in their blood, that's crazy.

[B]

You know that stuff is linked to chemical warfare from Vietnam. It has a historical connection to Agent Orange.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Google Jamie, check that. But yeah, because I wrote about it in a book. Oh, I know. That should alarm you.

[A]

Glyphosate is everywhere. It's so spooky. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. We've talked about digital threats and protecting your personal information on the show before, but it's just as important that you take care of yourself and your loved ones in the real world too. And that's where Simplisafe comes in. For your home security system, they use a mix of AI technology and real, live, breathing people to keep you safe. Like if some weirdo is loitering around your property, AI powered cameras can help detect it and agents can act quickly to deter them or contact the police. But Simplisafe is there for more than just the bad stuff. Their cameras also capture the moments you might want to save. Like the first time your daughter rides her bike down the driveway or your kid is opening their acceptance letter from college on the front porch. Keep your family safe so you can experience moments like that more often. Try out SimpliSafe. They've got a 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Plus you can get 50% off your new Simplisafe system with professional monitoring. And your first month free. Just go to simplisafe.com rogan that's simplisafe.com rogan for 50% off and your first month free. There's no safe like Simplisafe and other countries won't even allow its use. And we spray it on everything. Not only that, we have like corns genetically engineered to be immune to glyphosate, so they could just spray the shit out of it. And then you eat that corn and you're Getting glyphosate residue. You're just getting it, and it's in your blood.

[B]

It's in. It's in everything.

[A]

It's in everything. It's in rice water. It's wheat.

[B]

Yeah, it's in.

[A]

Well, it's in the runoff, so it gets in the fish. You know, most freshwater fish have toxic levels of lead and. Or heavy metals in them. Like most. Most freshwater fish you really probably shouldn't be eating.

[B]

I knew big predatory fish, yes, that's.

[A]

In the ocean, but that's heavy metals from the ocean, which is also from us. But that's mercury. But there's toxic levels of heavy metals and pollutants and, you know, forever chemicals that are in freshwater fish. Because all that shit that's in the ground gets into lakes, Right? All that shit that. You know, all the runoff, all that stuff gets into streams, gets into creeks, gets into rivers. You know, we watched a video when we had Will Harris from White Oak Pastures on the podcast, and he showed the difference between his regenerative farm that doesn't use any pesticides or herbicides and his neighbor's farm. And there's a. Literally a dividing line in the river where you can see the runoff from his neighbor's farm turns the entire river brown. And it's legal. It's legal to pollute, of course, because it's industrial farming.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But it's crazy. It's just like all that industrial fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides are running off because the topsoil is dead. So all that stuff is running off as soon as it rains. And it runs right into the river and you can see a dividing line. There's, like, clear water on one side and this disgusting, brown, dirty water on the right side.

[B]

Have you seen where it runs from the river into the ocean and creates dead zones that you can see from space?

[A]

No oxygen. Yeah.

[B]

Nothing but jellyfish for miles.

[A]

I have a friend of mine who is a yoga instructor and he's from Argentina, and he came to America and no one told him he was in la. No one told him, don't surf after it rains. So he was surfing and he didn't understand that all the runoff from all the streets goes into the ocean. He got horribly sick. And, you know, he was bedridden and he was like, what the fuck is going on with the ocean?

[B]

Having grown up in California and spending a lot of time in the water, I have known this for years. And now I can't even imagine, by the way, in California, who would dare to get in the ocean at this point, considering all of the crap from the fires, That's a great irony. Oh, yeah, that's my favorite. Oh, we're not doing any forestry mitigation because of the environment. And yet these fires have rolled back all of those protections by something like 20 years. Is it just.

[A]

Oh, that ground's ruined. Forever destroyed.

[B]

And then pours into the ocean.

[A]

Twice the size of Manhattan. Ruined ground. All those people that had electric cars, those cars, those batteries, all that shit. It's all the plastics and the fiberglass and carbon fiber. All that stuff, the tires, all that stuff is now in the soil. And you're gonna. If you. Good luck having a garden. Good luck. You want to try to grow plants. Good luck.

[B]

I was talking to. I don't know if you've ever seen this gentleman. He's really great. He wrote a book called Eat to Be d disease named Dr. William Lee. And he called me after the fire because I was out there visiting my mom. He's like, where are you? Are you in California? And I was like, I am at the moment. In fact, I'm right here by Palisades. And he said, jill, do you remember 911 dust? That whole thing with all the. I was like, of course I remember. Send me a bunch of articles. And he's like, you gotta get out of there. Get your mom out of there. He's like, it gets in your kids clothes when they're on their way to school, people. He goes, we're going to be talking about this ten years from now. The result of the toxins in this fire and how they've affected people's health.

[A]

No doubt. No doubt.

[B]

Crazy. And it happens twice a year.

[A]

Yeah, at least. Oh, I was evacuated three times when I lived in LA.

[B]

I. In fact, I lost two homes. One that I owned in 2018 and one that I sold in 21. Just actually burned. It's not.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nothing's. I mean, what they did during the fire was just so insane. Like the fact that the reservoir was empty. Oh, we need to make a lid for it. We didn't get around to it for.

[B]

Over a year, and it hadn't even begun. There was so many things wrong there that I could literally.

[A]

There's a lack of funding, Jillian. They don't have enough money.

[B]

I can't. They don't have enough money. Have you seen Mike Shellenberger talk about this?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That will make your blood boil.

[A]

Yeah, Schellenberger's great.

[B]

I. I love him that he's like, we knew about this for seven days with the winds, and we could have, you know, we could have borrowed firefighters from all the different states and this and that and had them.

[A]

Karen Bass went to Ghana for a birthday party.

[B]

Knowing. Knowing between Mike Shellenberger and Carolla, whipping me into a frenzy about this. I literally think I've, like, popped 10 blood vessels because so much of this could have been mitigated and wasn't. And in fact, Gavin Newsom, my favorite.

[A]

Politician, he's my favorite podcaster. I wish we'd get back to him. He stopped. I don't know why he stopped.

[B]

Oh, did he stop? I didn't know that.

[A]

That fucking show was horrible.

[B]

Oh, God, I'm tired.

[A]

Everybody was mocking him. It was so bad for him. He had this idea of reaching across the aisle. So he reached across the aisle and he gets guys like Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon on. Then they eat his lunch. And so. And people are thinking his party were like, what the fuck are you doing? You're making us look horrible. So he bails on his podcast. When was his last episode?

[B]

I didn't realize he bailed.

[A]

Oh, he's back.

[B]

Yeah. No, we weren't gonna get that lucky. I don't think so.

[A]

Oh, Rahm Emanuel. Okay, that's. Well, now he's with his own side. Scott Galloway. Pretty much his own side.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Anthony Scarmucci. He hates Trump. That's a good move.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Ezra Klein. Okay, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not that it's gone away. It's just that it's so horrible. Nobody's watching it and no one is even talking about it anymore.

[B]

Yeah, that might be.

[A]

This is Gavin Newsom.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But it was so funny because that was the response after the election. They said, well, podcasts influenced the election, so we'll start our own podcast. Your podcast is going to make people even more inclined to not vote for you.

[B]

My favorite was we in our own version of Joe Rogan. And I love when you. I remember when you. You loved Bernie. You were like, I like the guy. You had Joe Rogan. Joe was on your side. And that's the one thing with the left is they purge people from the.

[A]

Party because it's a cult. It really is like leftism, not being an actual progressive. Like an actual progressive is a person who's kind, who wants people to just exist and be yourself and live amongst us. And we should all have social safety net and laws that, like, are kind and compassionate. We should look at the fact that we are an incredible first world nation. And we should, like, roll out the red carpet to all the. All the people that live here and try to make it a better place for everybody. That's real progressivism. And then it morphed into this, like, let perverts get into the women's room. Let men compete in women's sports, like all like, and ignore the fact that some people are psychotic and give them a blank check. As long as they just say they're a woman. Like, oh, you're a woman. Go ahead, carte blanche. Get in. And not only that, but treat them better than you treat women themselves, because they're actually more oppressed than women. So it's the oppression hierarchy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they get the gold medal in the oppression Olympics. It's bananas.

[B]

It is bananas. It really is. I can't. That's the stuff where you look and you say, I was never for any of this. If you. I'm a libertarian. I'm for personal freedoms. Of course, if you want to change your gender as an adult, that's absolutely up to you. And I would fight for your right to do that and live with dignity. But when your personal choices impact the rights and the freedoms of others, this is a far more nuanced conversation.

[A]

Far more. And it's like, especially when you're dealing with kids.

[B]

Oh, that's a whole different.

[A]

This is where it gets really crazy.

[B]

That's evil.

[A]

There's this hilarious conversation between this woman who's like, she looks like she's probably in her 70s, and this person's asking her, if you had a granddaughter, would you support them taking puberty blockers? She's like, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's insane to try to force a girl to go through puberty if she's really a boy. And this. That. Would you. Would you allow them to get a tattoo? Oh, I think that's permanent. No irony. Seconds later. No recognition of what she's saying. No. Like, tattoos can be removed, lady.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah, they can laser those off.

[B]

Have you noticed, though, they really don't understand it.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I got in a conversation with Jessica Tarlov about this, and she's like, oh, but, you know, they, they. The kids go through extensive therapy. I'm like, that's not true, Jessica. Or the concept that it's reversible. People believe this. Exactly.

[A]

Not only is it not true, but puberty blockers are the exact same thing they give to sex criminals. When. When you have a sexual molester that is forced to be on sterilization drugs that's exactly what they give to young boys.

[B]

It sterilizes kids.

[A]

Yeah, it's the same thing.

[B]

Takes away sexual function. They can. If you interrupt puberty in the stage 10 or 2. And the reason, the reason I bring this up is because they'll tell you it's reversible.

[A]

No.

[B]

And. But here's the thing. Someone. I actually went through this exercise with somebody, and I was like, show that to me. And they went on chatgpt and it's like, yes, this is reversible. And the argument is that should you have a child that starts puberty at 7 and you use puberty blockers, it's very rare. It can happen. And they do it strategically to slow that down for a child and help them develop at a normal pace. It doesn't sterilize them or make them incapable of having an organism. So the distinction that's key is when you block puberty at the stage of 10 or 2, which is arguably the appropriate age, that puberty is meant to begin, then you've got sterilization, you've got an inability to ever have an orgasm. It affects bone development, it affects brain development, strokes. It's terrible for them. Yeah, they're freaking children. Their body is not developed properly. Nobody understands that. They don't. When they make that argument, they're told the parting line of if you make them go through this, they'll kill themselves. And it turns out that the data doesn't bear out to prove that either. But they have.

[A]

Not only that, it goes the other way. The data goes the other way. It goes the way 25% more likely to commit suicide, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, all those things ramp up once they've transitioned because they realize like, they're. They've made a horrible mistake and they've been influenced by these crazy people. They want to use them as, like, virtue flags. They want to use children as virtue flags. It's fucking insane. They also shouldn't be allowed to call them a different thing than when they call them. They call them chemical castration drugs for sex offenders, but yet they call them.

[B]

Puberty blockers and gender affirming care.

[A]

Gender affirming care? Yeah, it's. It's fucking barbaric and bananas. And we're gonna look back at it the same way we looked at lobotomies. You know, we performed lobotomies for, I think roughly around 50 or 60 years. For I think they stopped it in 1967. I think that's when they stopped the last lobotomies. And then they realized like, oh my God, this is a terrible thing to do, but they did it for so fucking long. And this is the same thing that's gonna happen with this whole gender affirming care thing for minors. It's crazy. Kids don't know what's going on. You have children, you know what it's like? Oh yeah, they go through phases and cycles. They become tomboys and boys play with dolls. Like, who cares? By the way, a lot of those boys that want to transition, it turns out they're just gay. And if you just leave them and let them be gay. And a lot of my gay friends fucking hate it because they're like, you're trying to erase gay people and you're trying to say that all these gay people are really in the wrong gender.

[B]

Gosh, I've never thought of it from that angle. I have seen the financial component though.

[A]

Oh, that's a big problem.

[B]

Multi billion dollar business.

[A]

That's where it's evil.

[B]

And when you look at who's funding this stuff, I remember, my God, I used to go to the frigging Human Rights Campaign dinners and donate. You know, when you're fighting for gay marriage and good, good liberal. And now when you go to their page, if they've got a score, and forgive me, I can't remember the friggin name of it, but there's a score where they rate different medical institutions on how they provide gender affirming care. And if they get a bad score, it impacts, I think, how much grant money they can get. There's a page for this, I believe it's through the HRC on their website. And when you look at who funds it, Pfizer. Oh, that's not at all surprising. One drug, I think Lupron, is almost a billion dollar a year off label. Forgive me, it's been a minute since I've looked into this, but I'm in the zone for sure. Yeah, terrifying stuff.

[A]

Well, it's just the money thing is so scary because when money gets attached to anything, all ethics and morals go out the window. And they just try to make as much money from these things as is humanly possible. And they've always done that. They've always done that across the board with virtually everything. And we're surprised when it happens with children.

[B]

I don't know, you and I are surprised. But I think most people are not awake at all about it.

[A]

No, no, most people aren't awake at all. And if it doesn't affect them personally, they feel like it's Important to espouse these beliefs because these beliefs show that you're a good progressive.

[B]

Yes, 100%.

[A]

Yeah. It's like people's minds have been co opted by, you know, I don't necessarily believe in demons and angels. I don't believe that. But if you were the devil, like wouldn't money be your most valuable tool to get people to do absolutely atrocious evil things that are going to ruin their lives? Money is like the devil's playground. It's like where the devil can convince good people to do things and then you use words like gender affirming care and you know, you can, you can kind of like change the narrative but the end result is really just you're profiting off of people's confusion and you're doing so in a way where you're sacrificing it's literal child sacrifice. Those children that wind up committing suicide because they went through this gender affirming care and are horribly depressed and they don't have breasts anymore and they're so confused and they can't have children and they just wind up killing themselves. And this is sacrifice. This is like a form of child sacrifice for financial gain. I mean, you're not sacrificing them to the gods or to demons. You're doing it to money. And it's really wild that we can't see that. We can't like look at all the data and see and understand like the complex interaction of human beings and people that are around them, that influence them. And you know that they get encouragement and then they get positive feedback and then they show up at school wearing lipstick and everyone's like, you're amazing. You're amazing now Bobby, now that you're Roberta, like now you're amazing. You used to be some guy that got stuffed into a locker and now your girl is incredible. And you're, you're giving them this positive feedback. You don't. And it's money and it's. The people are profiting off of it. It's fucking insane. And it's so wild to watch it all play out and realize like we are so vulnerable to influence. Human beings are so. I mean, this is why cults exist. This is why people are willing to be religious martyrs and blow themselves up and which by the way, like, why do they do that? Why do they get kids to wear suicide vests? Because you can't convince a 55 year old guy to do it. 55 guy with a job and a family and a lot of, you know, interests and good friends. Tough to get him to wear that suicide vest. You know, he's like, what? What am I doing? I'm going to a mall. What the fuck? No. Why am I doing that? I'm going to heaven and I'm gonna get 72 virgins. Can you. Can you show me these virgins? Like it's there a fucking. What happened to them? How do these poor virgins wind up in heaven just getting raped by this 55 year old guy who blew himself up? Like, this is fucking insane.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Well, you can't get adults to believe that, but you can get children to believe that. So we don't want to like take that same ability to influence and then just transfer it over to children. And I'm not quite sure why the.

[B]

Human mind is so fragile. I've asked myself that so many times. And this is gonna sound totally off piste here, but you brought up demons and what have you. And I just watched that. I didn't read the book, so forgive me, but I watched the documentary on the book Chaos on Netflix.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I read the book.

[B]

Okay. Are you not completely. I cannot wrap my head around how Manson got seemingly normal people to commit this kind of murder. And when you listen to these women talk about it, they're like. And then I stabbed her 15 times and I felt the knife go into her hip bone. And she looked at me and said, I'm dead. And like, no emotion. What did you do to this woman's mind? And you can't see she's an outlier. Because he was able to convince the group of people. I cannot understand this kind of fragility. What is that? MKUltra? Is it that?

[A]

Do you think it's that? No, 100%. That's Jolly West. Jolly west was the CIA operative who visited Manson in jail. He's also the guy that visited Jack Ruby after he shot Kennedy. And then Jack Ruby starts saying, I'm seeing demons and the Jews are on fire. And you know, Jack Ruby didn't have a history of mental illness like that. Like, like complete psychotic breakdowns. But he did after Jolly west visited him in jail. Yeah, there was like, there's like real documentation about those experiments. One of them is Operation Midnight Climax. So the CIA was operating brothels and they were operating brothels where they would have two way mirrors and they would be behind the mirrors. And these prostitutes who were working for the CIA would give the Johns LSD and then they would observe them. This is all document.

[B]

I knew a little bit about MK Ultra, obviously. And that they were using psychedelics to influence people and try to gain. Yeah, okay, so here's my question, though. This is what I find so fascinating. Do you think that the LSD simply accelerated that mental vulnerability or the ability to warp someone's mind? Because when you tell people now you're going to perform a sex change on a child, they think that's a good idea. And I'll tie it back to one thing that also is seemingly unrelated. But everyone's outraged about rfk. He's not a doctor. Oh, my God. He's trying to get to the root of autism, and he's misguided about it. Where was your outrage when Xavier Bechera, who's not a doctor, wanted to remove all age limits for sex changes on kids, whether surgery or not? The medicalization component that we talked about like that, to me, is a group psychosis. I wonder, like, to get an adult to. I'm like, where's your outrage and your concern about this? Because this is batshit crazy, right? And nobody said a word. Nobody cared. It went completely under the radar. And I'm just wondering if the ability to capture someone's mind in the way that they did through these CIA studies, did LSD simply accelerate a vulnerability that's already preexisting? And you're watching the brainwashing of people go on over the course of decades, because if you said this to a person, arguably in Obama's first term, when he ran on gay marriage, that you were gonna run sex changes on children in the year 2024, people would have lost their frigging mind.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So it's just a complete. It must have been brainwashed, though.

[A]

Yeah, it is. Brainwashing and cults. We all know that cults are real, right? We all know about the Manson family, We all know about Jim Jones. We all know about cults, and we know that human beings are very vulnerable to group influence. Now, when you have someone that's actually being trained by people that are psychologists and understand influence and then also trained in using the implementation of LSD on these people, One of the things that Mansa would do is he would pretend to take LSD and then he would give it to them and then influence them while they were under the influence and he was sober. And this is. This was all learned through the Harvard LSD studies, which, by the way, created the Unabomber. Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies.

[B]

Oh, my God. How do I not know this? I know he was a genius.

[A]

Well, there Was a bunch of things wrong with him. First of all, when he was a baby, he was severely ill, and they put him in some sort of an infirmary, and he didn't have any human touch for months. For months. They just. They like when he cried and he's in his crib, they left him there. His brother talked about it. There's a documentary on Netflix about him. And his brother talked about, like, even before the Harvard LSD studies, he. They would, you know, he was like, really up, really fucked up. Complete lack of empathy, like, and just.

[B]

Sociopath.

[A]

Yeah, complete sociopath as a young man. And it would express itself when he would experience rejection from women. He would have, like, violent reactions to that rejection and write them horrific letters and torture them and yell at them.

[B]

Jesus, it's so scary.

[A]

And then he goes through the Harvard LSD studies, which a part of his particular studies was humiliation. So he would be under the influence and they would humiliate him and they would abuse him and try to get him to a certain state of mind. So then this guy goes off to Berkeley, becomes a. Becomes a professor, and his whole idea is to just make enough money so that he can implement this program. Here's what's crazy about his ideas. He's kind of right, okay? So he's kind of right, and he thinks that technology is going to replace human beings. Like, he sees this through all of his acid trips, that human beings are going to be replaced, and we probably are. We probably are going to be replaced by AI. We probably are going to be replaced by synthetic life that we create, and we're facilitating that with our reliance on technology. So he decides he's going to live off the grid in a cabin and kill all the people that are involved in technology. A very twisted, distorted reaction to this thing that we're recognizing as being real in 2025 that we are experiencing. We have AI on our phones now, right? You know, we're constantly being monitored. We're constantly being surveilled. Your rights are getting very murky. All of your data is being given away. Everybody knows everything about you. It's easy to influence people with algorithms and also with bots. And it's being used for political discourse, being used for so many different things, essentially. You know, we don't want to think that cults can be half the country, but for sure it can be half the country. Could be the whole country. If you live under Sharia law, it's the whole country. Of course, the whole country believes that women have to cover every part of Their body except their eyeballs, you know, and this is this, this kind of thinking. We're very vulnerable to groupthink and especially groupthink that's being like intentionally manipulated also and then being done with psychedelic drugs. Now they did it during the Manson era because they were trying to stop the anti war movement. So they were trying to like the hippies and all these people that were like, hey, make love not war.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, we have to change the association that the general public has with these people because too many people are joining up with them. And so what they did was they got the Manson family and they got him to commit these horrific crimes. And every time Charles Manson would get arrested, he would get let out of jail. I mean, he was violating parole left and right. And the cops that arrested him were all being told when, when they were interviewed, they would say, this is above my pay grade. They're telling me that I have to let him go. So they would be contacted by someone from the State Department or wherever and saying, let him go.

[B]

I saw that somewhat alluded to in the documentary of like, well, you know, when the one guy, I'm gonna botch this. Never mind. Bottom line is they, they generally alluded to that, but because I didn't read the book, there wasn't that kind of in depth takeaway.

[A]

Yeah, unfortunately the documentary is only like what, like 90 minutes?

[B]

Yeah, it's very short.

[A]

Yeah, the book is.

[B]

Draws a connection, but it doesn't prove out its points. And I couldn't quite understand like, well, where's the proof of. Until. Until you just explained it.

[A]

Tom O'Neill, the guy who wrote that book is, he's been on the podcast before. He was my friend Greg Fitzsimmons neighbor in New York. And he was writing this 20 plus years. So Greg was his friend when it was happening, like when he start. So what he was doing is he was writing an article. I think it was for Vanity Fair or Variety, I forget. But the article was on the anniversary of the Manson killings. And so it was supposed to be just like, hey, this is the anniversary. Just write an article about the facts. So he starts going into the facts of the case and he's like, what? Wait a minute. And so he starts investigating and he can't investigate enough. And then he gets in trouble because like the deadlines passed and then he gets a book deal and the deadline passes on that. He's just completely obsessed with getting to the bottom of this and absorbing more and more information and documenting it all. He's got enough for many books. And he. I think, I believe he's writing another book right now.

[B]

That is absolutely insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know that the huge irony is that these drugs can, as we both know, these drugs can save lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was just talking to Callie and Brigham then, you know, who are involved in the Texas ibogaine initiative. And what's so fascinating is very different drug. Okay, but what about psilocybin? Like, when I talk to.

[A]

Also very different drug. Is it really Very, very different drug? Yeah, LSD is very different.

[B]

So they didn't use psilocybin or ibogaine or any of that stuff?

[A]

I thought they did. Not with that, but perhaps you could, if you did it correctly, if you knew how to manipulate people. Like Jolly west was well versed in manipulation. I mean, this was the whole part of the CIA's program. And by the way, it's not just the CIA, it's other intelligence agencies. MI5 was doing it. The. The. The UK studies on psychedelics. You could see the videos of British troops on acid. They dosed up these British troops from. I want to say it's the 1950s. Do you know that video, Jamie? You know the video? We've played it before, but these guys are, you know, in with full fatigues, just laughing, leaning up against trees, laughing. They gave him lsd.

[B]

To what end?

[A]

Both. They want to find out what it does. They thought it was a true serum. Turns out it's not. Like, well, what can it do? And then. So they used people to try to figure out what can be done with it. So this is 25 minutes. Let's put your headphones on real quick.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The first effects of the drug became apparent. 25 minutes long.

[C]

The drug became apparent. The men began to relax and to giggle. But this man was more seriously affected and had to be removed from the exercise. After 35 minutes, one of the radio operators had become incapable of using his set, and the efficiency of the rocket launcher team was also very impaired. Ten minutes later, the attacking section had lost all sense of urgency, noticed the bunching and indecision as they enter a wood occupied by the enemy. Almost immediately, the section commander tried to use a map to find the location of troop headquarters, and a prisoner's escort had to have the way pointed out to him, although it was in plain sight, 700 yards away over open country. 50 minutes after taking the drug, radio communication had become difficult, if not impossible, but the men are still capable of sustained physical effort. This man nearly significantly succeeded in felling this tree using only a spade however, constructive action was still attempted by those retaining a sense of responsibility in spite of physical symptoms. But one hour and ten minutes after taking the drug, with one man climbing a tree to feed the birds, commander gave up admitting that he could no longer control himself or his men.

[A]

Yeah, so this is one of the first experiments they did with LSD and soldiers.

[B]

Would you be trying to spray the air over the opposition? I mean, otherwise, what's the.

[A]

You could infect their food supply, you could infect their water supply.

[B]

So using it against your enemy, so to speak.

[A]

Yeah, you could do that. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, that's.

[A]

I mean, there was also some experiments that they ran, I think it was in St. Louis, where they were using a fan and they were spraying things, aerosol spraying, to see what kind of effect things would have on people like our government if you give them the license. Right. I don't want to say our government. Let's just stop saying that. Let's just say human beings with unchecked power. Human beings with unchecked power, they have an imperative narrative, like, what are they trying to do? Well, they're trying to figure out what this stuff does and what's the best way to do it. You tried it out on soldiers. Like, they've always done that with vaccines and a bunch of different experimental androgens. They've dosed them up with steroids and all sorts of different things to increase aggression. Methamphetamine was used during the war to get kamikazes to fly their planes into boats. The Nazis did it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I've seen that footage of him, I think, was at the Olympics.

[A]

Yes. 1936 Olympics. Just rocking, just rocking.

[B]

I. I heard that he did not have. They propped him up on that to the degree that he was able to subsequently convince Mussolini to jump into them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Have you ever read Blitzed? No, it's. Do we have it here still? Jimmy Norman, old Norman Oler wrote this insane book on the ubiquitous use of drugs during the Third Reich and how it caused them to go through Poland in three days because they stayed up for three fucking days on meth. And they gave the most meth to the people that were driving the tanks because they were at the front. So it was like they gave different doses depending on what your job was. And they just methed up, ran through Poland, and they. They caught these people just like in France. Like, their soldiers were given wine. So these people were, like, drunk. And then the Nazis came through, messed up, and just fucking killed everybody.

[B]

You know, I've Heard that. I don't know if this is true or not. So I heard that similar things were given. Forgive me for throwing this out there. It could be total bullshit. But to hamas on the October 7 attack, in order to be able to commit those kinds of atrocities.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

I don't know either. I've heard it through friends who are Israeli. It could be bullshit. But I would wonder if you have to commit those kinds of violent acts against another human being, I would imagine you'd have to be altered in some capacity. I can't even fathom being able to. I don't know. I can't wrap my mind.

[A]

Well, I think human beings are capable of great atrocities without any kind of drugs.

[B]

One like that, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, they do it. I mean, look at Vietnam. Look at the things that people did during Vietnam. I don't. I don't think they dosed them up in Vietnam.

[B]

No, I guess you're right.

[A]

And, you know, in Vietnam, people were taking heroin and smoking weed, and they were still doing that. It's. People have an evil capacity to other. Other people and decide. You see it politically, you know, in this country. Like, people on the left will demonize people on the right. People on the right will demonize people on the left. It's just like. It's a tribal thing that it's. It's an echo of our past because essentially when we were small tribes of 150 people and then you got invaded by a neighboring tribe, you had to be able to commit extreme violence against the other, and you had to be able to think of them as not you. That's not a person. That's. That's them. And you have to be able to go after them.

[B]

I can understand that.

[A]

By the group and.

[B]

Okay, right, fair. But the.

[A]

Yeah, no, I get it.

[B]

It's so visceral and hideous and I don't mean to bring the vibe down, but it's one thing to kill another human being that I have to. This is how we survive or whatever it is. We're fighting Nazis and you don't have a choice. Okay, fair. But to beheads. Just that kind of stuff. I just think torture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I often ask. This is going to a very unplanned place, but I ask myself what I'm capable of. If somebody hurt my kids or hurt my wife or hurt my mom, what would I be capable of doing?

[A]

I bet you'd be capable of extreme violence, I think.

[B]

Oh, without question. But I would be capable of it. But I don't like blood. I can't stand blood. I don't like guts. It would make me sick. It would horrify me. So I'm like, how would I. This is the shit that tortures me in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. Like, how far removed am I from this mentality? Like, am I just a few catastrophes away from losing my mind and becoming a lunatic?

[A]

Well, that's the appeal of the walking dead, right? The walking dead. The zombies become inconsequential. The real problem is people.

[B]

Yes, that's so true. And I could do a hell of a lot of horrendous things, but I couldn't. Like, some of the torture methods, I don't think. How do you have the stomach for it?

[A]

Well, like, look at what they did during the Inquisition. You can't say that that was drugs. These were people that just decided they were going to torture people. And they had, you know, they decided they othered people. And this is. This is a really evil aspect of human nature.

[B]

How do you defend against it, do you think? Seriously, like, if we all have it in us, what is the antidote to that?

[A]

You have to have a strong army to have people that can defend you against people that want to do that to people here, you know, and that's. And then they have to have a strong ethical and moral foundation where they would never be compromised. Yeah, they have to be the good guys. They have to think that they're the good guys and have a very strong ethical and moral foundation that doesn't allow them to compromise that.

[B]

It's tough, though, because when people fight dirty, it's such a massive disadvantage.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That then you think, well, I'm going to lose if I don't make this sacrifice in how I'm behaving or how I'm tackling this.

[A]

Well, we like to think that we're the good guys, but the biggest thing that's ever been done to human beings that's horrific. Is the nuclear bomb. Like, indiscriminate killing of civilians. Hundreds of thousands. Boom. In one shot.

[B]

Okay. The argument being that you drop it and then the war ends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's the. The lesser of evils. You know, you've sacrificed how many hundreds of thousands of people in that moment, but did you save millions down the road? And can you justify the behavior utilizing that logic? Well, you know, I committed this atrocity, but I saved more lives. Like, that's the slippery slope that I think about often is you were just talking about this the other Day when you know, be careful you don't become a monster when you're fighting monsters. And sometimes it's that fire fighting fire conversation. You want to use water, but what if it doesn't work?

[A]

Yeah, sometimes you have to become a monster.

[B]

Sometimes you. Honestly, Joe, I hate to say it, but sometimes you have to.

[A]

Yeah, if you want to defeat evil, you have to become a monster. Because if you don't, you won't beat it. You have to do horrific things. To beat horrific people, you have to kill them. Right. Like if someone's invading and they're shooting guns at people and they show up at the beach and they pull up in boats and they start gunning people down, you have to do the same to stop that. You can't like bring out daisies and go, hey guys, like, I bake you these pot brownies. Just like, let's just chill. Let's just rethink this, man.

[B]

Sebastian Younger said this to me once. He's like, listen, if you aren't willing to talk to the worst enemy, you have to fight them. But it's when the talking doesn't work. And you see that all the time. You see, I see it in my own personal life when all of my best intentions and my, my calmest demeanor and my most empathetic approach to something fails because you're just not dealing with somebody who is rational or well intentioned. And if you broaden that out, well.

[A]

Then imagine a language barrier. We have no idea what they're saying, Right? Yeah, yeah. And then a cultural barrier where their culture believes that if they die that they're going to go to heaven and that there'd be a martyr. And so they're willing to do that. They're excited to, to die and to kill you with them because they believe that the real prize is not in this life, it's in the next life. But this is. We're very vulnerable. We're very vulnerable to this kind of thinking. And I don't know why we're designed this way. It's a distortion probably of tribal survival, primate instincts, you know, you see it with. Have you ever watched Chimp Nation?

[B]

No, I was actually going to say animals don't have it, but then here we are.

[A]

Oh, they do.

[B]

Really. I mean, I know lions will kill their territorial, but the capacity for torture, I've never seen that in the animal kingdom. That kind of.

[A]

Have you ever seen a cat with a mouse?

[B]

Okay, yeah, I guess I have.

[A]

Yeah. They torture mice. They hold on to them and then they let him Go. And the mouse, like, oh, Jesus is gonna let me go? Like, not today, motherfucker. And then they torture him and want to keep playing with them. Yeah, they have zero empathy. Cats are the worst. Yeah, they have zero empathy, especially house cats, because they're well fed, right? So they're not doing it for food. They're just doing it because they have instincts to kill. Like, they're. These instincts are being. They're. They're being distorted, right? Because, like, the real instinct that they have to kill is so that they could survive. But when they're fully fed, they don't turn those instincts off, you know, now they just have this kill drive that's never satiated. And, you know, cats are the perfect killer. They move so fast. They're so stealthy. They have it from the time they're kittens. You see them crawl up to each other, like, very slowly, very jump on each other.

[B]

I'm thinking about our cat, actually, as you're talking. And when we lived in Miami, he would use the dog door and he would bring in iguanas this big.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't it crazy?

[B]

My wife would be like, honey, you know, chasing this fucking iguana around the house. It was ridiculous. Yeah. And he wouldn't kill it.

[A]

No, they're not trying to kill it. They're having fun.

[B]

He was having fun. Now that, I mean, you have a.

[A]

Little murderer that you live with. Yeah.

[B]

Cute little bastard.

[A]

But, yes, that's what cats are, you know, and that's a part of their essence. I mean, they are the cleanup crew. They're there to make sure the populations don't get out of control.

[B]

God, you bring up such a great point.

[A]

Have you ever seen the numbers on cats, like, domestic cats, what they kill every year?

[B]

The birds. I know, they kill like crazy.

[A]

Billions.

[B]

Billions.

[A]

Billions. Billions of birds.

[B]

He's an indictment. Everybody know this.

[A]

Let's look at the numbers, because, people, we brought it up before, but it's worth repeating because it's. It's kind of crazy. So it sort of illustrates his point. So this is like billions. Yes. B with B, like multiple.

[B]

That mean house cats.

[A]

Oh, it does. They don't have to be. They kill hundreds each cat. Feral cats are ruthless. House cats, feral cats, wildcats, any cat that's outside. Yeah. They instantly kill. Okay, here it is. Domestic cats, a leading cause of bird deaths in United States. Estimate to kill 1.3 and 4 billion birds annually. This includes both pet cats and cats that roam outdoors. And feral cats.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

American Bird Conservancy estimates that free Ranging cats kill approximately 2.4 million. It's hard to know what the real number.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

But they know it's in the billions.

[B]

It's in the billions.

[A]

But imagine how many birds there would be if cats didn't do that. Like, who's going to kill them? Like, they fucking. The sky would be filled with birds. You go outside, just get shit on everywhere.

[B]

Alfred Hitchcock movie.

[A]

It's kind of crazy.

[B]

I mean, when you, when you do look back at the plague and they started killing all the cats because they were associated with witches. And that's when the plague was able to kind of run more rampant because the cats were keeping that rat population down and the fleas on the rats caused.

[A]

Well, that's the coyote problem in California. Right. Like, people like, oh, I hate coyotes. Right, but do you hate coyotes more than you hate rats? Because coyotes are the reason why rats aren't everywhere. You know, like where I used to live, like, there was a lot of coyotes, but I don't see very many rats. And that's the reason why, like the wolves, the little wolves, which is what a coyote is, a small wolf. They're rat killers and rabbit killers and everything else they get a hold of.

[B]

I mean, it's obvious that they're playing a role in this control. Yeah, exactly. Because everyone in California just thinks they ate my Pomeranians. I don't see.

[A]

Probably did.

[B]

Yeah. And they probably did.

[A]

I mean, as a child, I ate my daughter's puppy. Yeah, they. But a mountain lion ate one of my dogs when I lived in Colorado. Yeah. It's like there's. Cats are motherfuckers, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Predators, like, at least predators are doing it for food.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say you don't hold it against. As a child, I lost a dog to a coyote. To this day, I don't, I don't have like, I don't hate coyotes. It's like, well, the dog was in the yard and coyote proof the yard. Enough. Let's coyote proof the yard now.

[A]

You can't really coyote proof your yard either. I had a coyote kill a chicken in my yard. We had a six foot tall, six foot tall wrought iron fence with the rollers on it.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

No, we didn't have the rollers, but the coyote with the chicken in its mouth leaped to the top like a ballerina. Like, it was so elegant the way. I was really impressed with its athleticism. And as a person who, like, admires physical feats, I was like, well, that's, that's very impressive because With a chicken in its mouth, leaped up to the top of the fence, got its paws on it. Went over just so gracefully and so adept. It was really impressive.

[B]

Okay, fair. This is okay, I guess. Animals do have a propensity for cats in particular. I did not think of it that way. That makes me feel a little better.

[A]

The cat thing is fucked up because they're not even doing it for food, but it's like that thing inside of them has been. And it's there. You can't satisfy it with just food. I mean, they literally are the cleanup crew for nature. That's what they are in Africa. When you see them, they're looking for the wounded antelopes. They're looking for anybody who's old. They're looking for anybody who just can't run fast enough. And that's what they do, and that's how they keep the populations down. You know, this is the reason why they've reintroduced wolves into Colorado, and that's the reason why they reintroduced wolves in Montana. And the elk populations decreased significantly because the elk populations were out of control, right? So they brought in wolves, and the wolves, like, radically drop the population down. And they even do surplus killing where they'll kill a bunch of things where they can't eat, but just that they can't help themselves. They have the opportunity to kill, and so they do.

[B]

So what is the. What is the antidote to this within the human population? Because I see the necessity for survival, but it can make you quite depressed if you let it. It can make you a bit nihilistic. And fighting for the hope and the good is so my. See, my mom says that to me all the time. Because when I try to show her some of the things you and I talked about in the beginning, and I'm like, don't you see? And this is rigged, and who's really pulling the strings? And these are bad guys. And she's like, Honey, I'm 76. Like, leave me alone.

[A]

And that's fine.

[B]

I want to.

[A]

There's nothing wrong with that.

[B]

You know, she's like, I want to see the good in people. Try to see Mr. Rogers look for the helpers. But you can fall into really becoming nihilistic about humanity when you. When you witness these things and have these conversations. And I try so hard to not go there in my head, but it's hard not to.

[A]

Well, we are primitive. We're a primitive evolving species, and we're still trapped with these primate bodies. We're territorial primates with weapons, and we're still trapped with the same instincts that got us to the dance, the same instincts that caused us to create walled cities which allowed us to survive and then agriculture, which allowed us to develop surpluses. And then people wanted those surpluses. Nomads. And they came in the roving barbarians, the Mongolian hordes. You know, this is, this is like all part of our history. And this is the battle of good versus evil and the battle of good versus evil. I think this duality has to exist. I think you have to have good to combat evil and you have to have evil to keep good in check, like to enhance good and to force people to really to, to, to rise and to innovate and to figure out how to defeat evil. Without evil and without the idea of these hordes, we never would have developed cities. If we never developed cities, we never would have gone through the industrial revolution. We're not, we wouldn't develop cities if we're just like roving, peaceful, nomadic hunter gatherers. It just, we would be the same.

[B]

It serves its purpose. I've read all, I've read all my Khalil Gibran. It's like, oh, you know, the deeper your pain, like, the more ability you have for empathy. And I get all of it, but it's seemingly imbalanced now. And I guess that's what I mean.

[A]

It'S always like that. But that is what causes people to strive to do better.

[B]

I hope you're right, Joe.

[A]

I think it is.

[B]

I mean, you're definitely one of those guys, which is why bringing it back to the very beginning, I think that you're number one. But I also think, you know, you're one out of quite a few. Well, I hope you're right.

[A]

You know, you have to have principles that you live your life by. Right. And be aware of evil, but do your best to be good.

[B]

Yeah. And you see the fight without evil.

[A]

Like, you have no desire to be good. Like, why be so? Why be wonderful? Why be kind? And why there's no contrast, there's no nothing you're fighting against. Like, this is unfortunately what motivates, what.

[B]

Makes you choose though. Okay, so another thing that I've thought about often is like evil never stops going. Have you ever heard that good has to decide when it gets out of bed in the morning? Like, you're on the freeway and someone's got a. Is broken down on the side of the freeway and it's like, do you. Are you late for something? Are you worried? There are a million things that will influence whether or not I stop that day. But a bad guy will always see an opportunity to go after that person. Evil works tirelessly and good requires a sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself.

[A]

Your mic just cut off minded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you disconnect the mic? Cable me? No, I think it's disconnected.

[B]

Too dark of a conversation. It's like, that's it. No more of this dark.

[A]

Is it back now? Oh, yep. That's weird. I didn't even touch it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, this is designed for me.

[A]

Evil. Evil's trying to stop me from saying the moment I'm saying there's more good than there is evil.

[B]

The mic disconnects.

[A]

Yeah, I think unfortunately evil can co op people. And because good people can become evil when they experience so much evil that they have to become, you know, become a monster. Fight against monsters.

[B]

I'm seeing it even in, in the health space as sometimes I'll. Brigham is dealing with the FDA stuff right now. And I was talking to him this morning and he's like, Jillian. And he's talking about trying to compound peptides and there's a war on peptides and there's a war on stem cells and of course it's like the cutting edge of medicine. But he's like describing what they're going up against in dealing with this and it's evil. Like why would you want to prevent these life saving treatments?

[A]

Well, that's a perfect example. That's money. And if money is the devil, that, that's a perfect example. Because the pharmacy though, Joe. Yeah, that's my question though. The problem is corporations. You, I'm sure you've seen this before. Corporations behave like a psychopath. Right? Because corporations don't have humanity. And when you have a corporation, which I don't know how we get away from not having corporations. So what's the solution there? But corporations have an obligation to their shareholders.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sometimes you have to do fucked up things in order to make more money. And that's when you're in the business of drugs. Like that's like if you're in the business of making movies, what fucked up things can you do to make more movies and make movies that more people are going to see? Really nothing. It's like you just have to make them resonate with people. But if you're selling drugs, well boy, you can influence people. You can lie about studies. You could have your scientists perform studies and then throw out all the studies that don't jive with whatever you're trying to sell.

[B]

Compounding and then pharmacies kicking Them out.

[A]

Yeah, you compromise all these politicians and get them to repeat your narratives.

[B]

That should be illegal, though.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that should.

[B]

That should be illegal. You should be able to get rid of.

[A]

But the problem not. So how do you get it out?

[B]

You gotta reform campaign finance. Do you remember many moons ago, I believe it was John Edwards who was running on that many moons ago. But as a kid, I didn't fully understand what that meant as an adult. No one's ever brought that. I mean, kind of broken.

[A]

Here's step one. You gotta say they can't advertise. That's number one. Because not only is it not, advertising is not really the problem. It's part of the problem, but the real problem is when they advertise. And Kali Means talked about this extensively. Now the media will not criticize them because they're responsible for an enormous percentage.

[B]

Of their income, 70 plus percent. But the issue, I had this conversation recently and the issue is going to be freedom of speech here. It's going to be a First Amendment fight.

[A]

But that's not a First Amendment fight.

[B]

They're going to argue because you could.

[A]

Still do it on social media. You could still like make your own podcast if you're Pfizer.

[B]

That's the angle they're going to take. I am sure of it.

[A]

Right. But you can't advertise for cigarettes on television. Why? Because we've decided this is kids.

[B]

I think. I think it's kids. I've heard this conversation and I'm trying to remember who one of the researchers was, but Callie was there, Mark Hyman was there and they were having this exact conversation. And one of the people on the other side was suggesting that they have already gamed this out and that's the way that they're gonna go.

[A]

Well, ironically, this is self sabotage for the media itself because no one takes them seriously anymore. Because they don't do that because they don't criticize the pharmaceutical drug companies. They don't talk about vaccine side effects. They don't talk about pharmaceutical drug side effects. They don't.

[B]

They make you look like you're insane when you do. I was on CNN talking about Ozempic one time and they essentially called me anti science because I suggested that a lot of the drugs. Yeah, I was like, well, they're like, well, we give people statins and we give people blood pressure medication.

[A]

Look at the fucking data on statins.

[B]

By the way, I was initiating that conversation and I was called anti science.

[A]

That's not even anti science. They don't understand the data.

[B]

They won't even allow you to express that on the show anymore. Then never again invited on cnn because they're compromised.

[A]

It's not really news. It's only the news that they feel compelled to talk about due to their financial issues.

[B]

Yeah, they buy the narrative.

[A]

But the problem with that, like, look at the ratings on cnn. They're fucking collapsing and they're in a spiral. Why? Because no one trusts them anymore. So the public trust has been eroded because of their own desire to make more money.

[B]

There is an opportunity where a network wanted me to compete against these GLP1 drugs. And everyone loves the idea. But the top concern is, oh, what if Jillian wins? And then it'll be a catastrophe. So the ad sales department is like, I don't know that we can do this. We can't call it Jillian versus we can't call it that. What are we gonna call it? I don't know how we're gonna position this. And I was like, we don't even need to bash it. Let me just do my job. Let's see what happens. But they're even afraid. Like, God forbid I won and was able to do it naturally.

[A]

Do you think there's an argument for GLP1 drugs, though, for people who are morbidly obese? Cause I kinda do.

[B]

Okay, so here's where I' to on all all medications. Largely, it's a cost benefit analysis. So if you brought an individual who was morbidly obese and already had atherosclerosis and type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease, and you said, we've tried everything, they're at death's door and this is arguably the last step. Well, in that case, the downsides of the medications are far less than not trying it. So in that instance, you could twist my arm for sure. But if you gave me my way, I would prefer to look at what the medications like ibogaine or psilocybin could do for the psychological component. The addictive component.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

One treatment doesn't go on forever and then cause diet and exercise do work. What's stopping them from engaging in those habits consistently is all the stuff we talked about in the beginning. The psychological component, the physical addiction. So no one's ever tried it, though, so there's no way to actually know. And you can't. It's almost impossible to do the research on it, which is again, why the text ibogaine initiative is so important, because you can begin this kind of research, although it is in veterans and addiction and so on. But would that be the first step? And when I've asked the people in the space, like Matt Shepard, for example, who is at Shepherd Pratt and one of the guys that's the foremost experts on psilocybin and treating addiction, he's like, yeah, theoretically, it would work great. Theoretically. So for me, if we got all the way to this place and I had no choice, that's like saying, jill, if someone had stage four cancer, would you do chemo? I mean, I guess so, but I'd like to. If there was an alternative way forward, or if we could prevent it to begin with, that would be ideal. So you could twist my arm to that point. I think there's something to be said for, again, what Brigham is doing it ways to. Well, which is why being able to compound the GLP1 drugs allows you to titrate the dose. So when people argue with me on this matter, they'll suggest that a titrated dose, a lesser amount of these drugs can be effective with significantly less side effects. But when they're trying to block that and you can't even explore it.

[A]

Yeah, it's all weird because I think the problem also is competition. Right. If ibogaine becomes ubiquitous and these clinics become everywhere, the real issue becomes how much does that compete with the pharmaceutical drug market's value? How much does that decrease their ability to profit? And it's probably significantly.

[B]

I mean, if it impacts antidepressants alone, that's significant. If one treatment could have the impact on obesity that it does on opioid addiction, GLP1s are the most profitable drug of all.

[A]

But here's the thing. If they do allow the use of ibogaine, and then also the allowed the use of psilocybin, if more people start taking it, more people are not gonna buy whatever the pharmaceutical drug companies are selling, and they'll just naturally sort of deteriorate. You're always gonna have fools. You're always gonna have people that just want to. What do I take? I'll take it. There's always gonna be people like that, you know? And those people are there to give you a lesson without you having to fall prey to the folly that they have fallen prey to. I think that's the same with a lot of addictions, particularly gambling addiction. I'm in Vegas all the time, and I don't gamble. I've played blackjack for fun, but, like, 20 bucks here, right? I don't. I don't get it, but I see it. I see it. I see that crazed look in the I think gambling addiction is one of the weirder ones. I've been around it a good portion of my life and it's the sweaty faces. This, this, this need to, to gamble is really nuts. And that's another part of the human reward system that's intermittent rewarding.

[B]

Yeah, it's the most study. Have you ever seen it with like the rats where they push the button. No. Food comes out. Push the button, food comes out. So the ones that get the intermittent food reward will sit there and push that damn button until they collapse with exhaustion. The ones that push for a little while, get nothing, Give up. The ones that push until they're get food every time, get full machine logic.

[A]

It's the same thing.

[B]

Yep. It's that intermittent reinforcement.

[A]

Yeah. We're exceptionally powerful, easy to manipulate. We're weird creatures.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And it's again, it's all our survival instincts get hijacked.

[B]

But if you gave them an alternative path when they are ready for help, when the horse is ready to drink and you had an alternative method that we're seeing work.

[A]

Yes. Well, that's the thing. You have to have freedom of the use of these alternative methods. And I think naturally those would overcome, they would succeed. I think you'd still probably have gambling addicts. You probably would have people that want to take all the pharmaceutical drugs, like whatever the doctor wants to prescribe to them, but it would be less and less and they don't want that. Which is why you're seeing the pushback from the FDA with peptides and all these different things is because they're concerned that if you give people a bunch of things that are going to make them healthy, they're not going to take as many pharmaceutical drugs.

[B]

Oh. Without. I mean, which is why there's no model for prevention in healthcare. It's not profitable at all. But it's ridiculous. There's a peptide called cerebralysing that they give to stroke patients in other parts of the developed world that can have a massive impact as well on cognitive function and can be neuroprotective. You can't even buy it here, literally. I had to find it in Austria, ship it into the country and Brigham and Dr. Rexford, I was like, now what do I do with this? He's like, brigham had to walk me through how to use it on frickin facetime. He's like, it's not. It's ridiculous. Yeah, it is insane.

[A]

It's pretty crazy.

[B]

And I like, by the way, there's.

[A]

A new stroke drug that I actually Just sent my friend Rich because our friend Keith Robinson, I don't have his number, but he suffered from a stroke. And there's some new drug that. I'll send this to you, Jamie. These UCLA scientists have developed. Oh, you got it already. They developed first drug rehabilitation to repair brain damage. Drug replicated the recovery of movement control produced by rehab in mice.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah. So this is new. This is March 18th. New study by UCL Health has discovered what researchers say is the first drug to fully reproduce the effects of physical stroke. Rehabilitation and model mice following from human studies. Yeah, so. Which is wonderful. It's amazing. So this is the benefit of pharmaceutical drugs. There are some pharmaceutical drugs that are wonderful. So the goal is to have medicine that stroke patients can take that produces the effects of rehabilitation. Dr. S. Thomas Carmichael, the study's lead author and professor and chair of UCLA Neurology. Rehabilitation after stroke is limited its actual effects because most patients cannot sustain the rehab intensity needed for stroke recovery. Further stroke recovery is not like most other fields of medicine where drugs are available to treat the disease, such as cardiology, infectious disease or cancer. Carmichael said rehabilitation is a physical medicine approach that has been around for decades. We need to move rehabilitation into an era of molecular medicine. So this is why, you know, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathroom.

[B]

It's always like that, though. Everything is a U shaped curve.

[A]

There's drugs that the pharmaceutical drug companies make that help people and heal them and fix them and save their lives and.

[B]

Couldn't agree with you more.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

It's like. But it is.

[A]

But you have to, Goldilocks. Just like you have to, you know, keep your kids from eating all the sugar completely. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I just got whooping cough and Joe, I literally thought I was going to die. I ended up at week seven, I called my internist and I was like, I think you need to check me in the fucking hospital. This is insane. I think I'm going to die. And they hit me with the horns. And the long story short is I am vaccinated for it. But I guess my vax or my vaccination or my booster is old. I don't even remember the last time I got it. My wife is vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated for it. My mom is vaccinated for it. Everybody in my circle is vaccinated. No one got it. I strongly recommend getting your DTAP vaccine because whooping cough, it was 100 days of it. So for my point being, I Don't want the COVID vaccine. I don't want the COVID vaccine and I don't need it. But I, in any universe, for me personally, I would if I would have known I was behind on that booster. It's like everything has a cost benefit analysis. Everything. It's like the dose is what makes the poison. Everything is that U shaped curve. And approaching it with nuance is really the only intelligent way forward to make the best decisions for yourself. But you need the right information to.

[A]

Do that, and we need to have actual access to data. And this is a real problem that we've had in the last few decades because there's been this revolving door between the FDA and pharmaceutical drug companies. So people were there, the head, I think it's like seven out of eight heads of the FDA went on to work for pharmaceutical drug companies.

[B]

Revolving door 100%, which.

[A]

So you've developed these relationships with these pharmaceutical drug companies where you like, they're funding the studies, they're funding all. And then you leave and then you go to work for them and you get a nice cushy job. So you kind of like, I can make you look sideways. I can make it worse.

[B]

I was, when I was at the Senate testimony, I can't remember how many months ago that was, but Kali Means had us meeting with different senators and their aides. And a kid came up to me and I of course, brought that up. And he's like, it's so much worse than that. And I was like, elaborate. What do you mean it's so much worse than that? And he said, essentially, they developed the drug, have stock in the company, go to work at the fda, approve the drug, and go back to the drug company. Yeah. I was like, oh, there's another step. Okay, got it.

[A]

It's so crazy. It should be completely illegal. Yeah. I mean, want to talk about a conflict of interest? That's the biggest conflict ever and you're dealing with billions of dollars in profit.

[B]

I was working on a book, or have been working on a book, where it looks at each and every law that was put into place with good intentions. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And how each and every one was co opted by Big Food or Big Ag or Big Pharma to wreck complete havoc and destruction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's what you see.

[A]

That's what you see. And you're gonna keep seeing that if nothing gets changed. And that's what's encouraging about this administration. So the thing that I was most excited about was Bobby Kennedy. When Bobby Kennedy united with Trump, I was like, okay, I'm in. He goes like, if he can get in there, you can see real change that's gonna affect the way our lives are forever. That's gonna change things. It's gonna give people a real understanding of what's going on behind the scenes. Why you've been lied to, why all these drugs are everywhere, why you're seeing poor health outcomes, why we're the richest nation in the world, but also the sickest. You know why? And across the board with education, we're the richest nation in the world. We have terrible education scores. Like, why? Why? Since we developed the Department of Education, have our scores plummeted? Like, what is that? And again, road to hell.

[B]

Good intentions, 100%. I was speaking with Kelly and he's like, you know, don't pull punches because you. You wanna be diplomatic. But I am finding myself defending Kennedy, who, by the way, I've met twice. I have no. I don't work for this administration. I have no personal affiliation. It's just right and wrong. There is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, and this administration wants to address it. And yet you are seeing the resentment. You are seeing the opposition flood the zone with hysteria. 24 fucking 7. And it's crazy. It's constantly taking people off piste. Like, oh, I actually did an interview the other day on News Nation where the host was like, well, you know, he promised results on autism by September, and that's unrealistic. And I was like, who gives a fuck if it's unrealistic? Aren't you glad we're looking at it? It's genetic. I'm like, do you really believe that?

[A]

Why would anybody say that without doing decades of research themselves?

[B]

I cannot. Do you really think.

[A]

Do you know, California's. It's now some insane number, like 1 in 12 boys.

[B]

It's higher in California, obviously, than anywhere else in the country, and boys in particular over girls. But the reality is that we don't know.

[A]

Well, they also think that one of the reasons why it's boys over girls is, like, in girls, it's like, less obvious, it's less diagnosed.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

I've seen that. I'm not sure if that's true either, because that's the argument also is like, oh, autism has always been here. It's just. It just hasn't been diagnosed correctly.

[B]

That was debunked, though, by the mind institute at UC Davis. Was like, now the bullshit. It was one in 150, 20 years ago.

[A]

But people don't want to admit they did that to their kids. And so they will defend it to the death. Just like people who've turned their kids trans don't want to admit that these are chemical castration drugs. They don't want to admit it. They don't want to admit that they possibly have contributed to mental disease, to mental health disease, to anxiety and depression and suicide. No, no, no. Would you rather have a live boy or a dead girl?

[B]

What exactly.

[A]

What are you fucking saying?

[B]

But it's a closed system. And what I mean by that is, even if I did the gimme. Oh, you're right, Autism is genetic. Well, what about the rise in early onset cancer diagnosis, the rise in obesity, the steady increase of infertility year after year after year? We went from adult onset diabetes to type 2 diabetes because children have type 2 diabetes now. Come on, how far you want to push it? People are not stupid. They're not. You can capture them to a point, but when the evidence is overwhelming, we are sicker than. And the resistance is mind blowing to this guy every day. Oh, well, now, you know, he fired the guy that's tracking gonorrhea. I'm like, you know what I mean? Wear a fucking condom, for God's sake. I think you're that worried. Hopefully that guy will get his job back, but at the end of the day, he's also tackling the grass rule and trying to get to the bottom of autism and getting poison out of baby formula and removing soda from snaps. It's just like, where is the perspective for the general public to read through the media?

[A]

Well, the problem is it's gone tribal. Right? And when you have an us versus them thing going on, which is what we do here in this country. You know, like, I keep seeing, like, people online saying, in these dark times, yes, are these times so dark? Like, what is happening? But you know, you know, it's dark. Yeah, if you're living in Gaza, it's pretty fucking dark. If you're living in Ukraine, pretty dark. But like, here have things gone dark? Like, they're called this totalitarian regime? Like, okay, what's totalitarian? That they're cutting fraud and waste? Like, have you paid attention to the fraud and waste? Have you paid attention to the fact they spent $250 million on transgender animal studies? Like, where's your fucking money going? You're not concerned with this unchecked spending that this government has been able to do for decade upon decade? And these millions of NGOs, do you know there's an NGO in India for every 600 people.

[B]

I have heard it's a CIA slush. I've watched that episode with my friends. At least 10 of them.

[A]

At least 3 million NGOs in India. There's an NGO in India for every 600 people. And this is why we're $36 trillion in debt. Those numbers are nuts.

[B]

Can I be the opposition on this? Sure.

[A]

Please do.

[B]

There's children that are starving, Joe. You've taken their food away.

[A]

Well, we definitely shouldn't do that.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

If you can prove that this is also the problem with charities, this is the dark truth of charities, is that most charities, the money goes to bureaucracy. A huge percentage of it goes to overhead. And in fact, most charities, the vast majority of the money never gets to the charity.

[B]

Homelessness in California. 24 billion gone. Where is it?

[A]

It was.

[B]

Yeah. Where's the money? And the problem's worse.

[A]

Free needles or something.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it was spent on.

[A]

It wasn't even. It's probably fraud and waste.

[B]

It's both.

[A]

And there's also. In the. Well, my friend, Coleon Noir, he brought this up, and I was never aware of it until he said it. He went to San Francisco and he saw the rampant. And he's a lawyer, so he went to San Francisco and he saw all this homelessness, and he's like, what is the problem? There's not enough funding. And a guy over there going, no.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

You don't understand. It's the opposite. There's a business now. So these people that are working in the homeless, you know, whatever the organization, they're making quarter million dollars a year.

[B]

Half a million in some cases. I don't know if you've seen Anna Kasparian talk about this, but she can elaborate on this subject matter to the point that you literally want to forcibly remove Gavin Newsom from office. It is staggering. And some of them, half a million bucks and nothing.

[A]

They're doing a great job. Just imagine if they weren't there, how much homeless we would have.

[B]

We'd all be homeless. I know this is. You've seen him talk.

[A]

Everyone would be homeless. So just relax.

[B]

Well, you know, I just had this conversation, actually. I was talking to Carolla, and he was telling me that Gavin Newsom had told him back in the day that the face of homelessness was not addiction and mental illness. It was women and children. And there's a loophole. A friend of mine who's a reporter with the New York Times looked into it. Cause she's like, why didn't you push back on that? I'm like, because he's right. She goes, no, no, no, no. I looked into it, and it's women and children. And then she ended up getting to the bottom of the loophole. And the way that he was able to put forward that narrative is that homeless is a person without a stable address. And that's predominantly women and children. But under sheltered is what we consider homeless. The people on the streets and the tent camps. And arguably that is largely.

[A]

So what is. I don't understand. What's the definition?

[B]

Okay, so Newsom was saying to Carolla, like, you're so insensitive and the face of home.

[A]

Children don't own homes.

[B]

He was saying that women, like the mom that owns two jobs, that's who I'm trying to save. We don't need to tackle addiction and we don't need to tackle mental illness, because this is about the underprivileged individual, the female single mom with two kids who, you know, this is the face of homelessness. And Carolla was like, you're a sociopath. It's addicts and people with mental illness. And I ended up then in a debate with this journalist who's lovely, named Molly, and she's like, well, that's. Statistics say that homelessness is, in fact, women and children. But when I challenged her and sent her San Francisco, whatever, we go back and forth, and she ended up coming back to me after doing the homework. And there is a distinction between homeless and unsheltered. So homeless are people with unstable addresses, and that is women and children. So I'm like, how do. Why in a temporary. I couldn't quite extrapolate what.

[A]

So is it like divorce?

[B]

I guess it's like in temporary housing or, you know, in an apartment somewhere, but unsheltered. The people on the street that you and I would go homeless in the tent, camp outside on the sidewalk.

[A]

So they're playing.

[B]

That's what he's doing.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

That's what I'm trying to get at.

[A]

Gross.

[B]

Yes. I'm sorry. Cannot stand the guy.

[A]

Well, if you see these. I can't stand them communities, you see clearly that you're dealing with drug addiction and mental illness.

[B]

But don't believe what you see with your own eyes. That's the game across the board. Don't believe your common sense. Don't you. Common sense would dictate all the things we talked about. Autism is increasing. We shouldn't give Sex change. We shouldn't sterilize 12 year olds. But don't believe any of that. Don't believe that people who are homeless need help psychologically, need some way to treat the addiction. Obviously there are more intelligent people like Shellenberger that have a plan for this, despite the fact that he didn't get into the governor's office, which is a shame because he would have done far better than what California's dealing with now. But it's this constant game and a manipulation of the facts all the time. And this is where, if I could do one thing in my job, it's teaching people how to defer back to their common sense. It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Common sense is not that common, right?

[B]

No.

[A]

It's also people are tired because they have a poor diet and they're not eating well. And so they don't have the time to be thinking about this stuff. And they don't have the mental energy to like research these things. And they're overwhelmed with bills and debt and, you know, and maybe like relationship problems and, you know, there's so many problems that people have already to get them to look at external issues that maybe don't affect them personally on a day to day basis. It's very difficult to get people to focus on that. So then they vote with what they think is like their virtue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, blue no matter who, vote Democrat, no matter what. Like, okay, that's not helping you. And then when you abandon it and leave, you're called a traitor. You know, you're a traitor to the party. Yeah, you, you must get that a lot.

[B]

Oh my God. Well, I went through all of it, but then when you finally decide it doesn't matter anymore, you become immune. So I was, I was. It's interesting, back in the day when I, my friend used to refer to me in this capacity, she'd say, you know, you're like the fat person's Jesus. This is the early 2000s. Oh, Jillian Michaels is, doesn't judge. But then she's open arms and she's trying to help people. And then the very same person with the very same belief system and the very same strategies in dealing with the problem became the ultimate enemy, the ultimate fat shamer, the ultimate science denier. And it just goes to show you how the narratives shift. It's tough to call me a transphobe because I fall under that acronym umbrella, despite the fact that gay is different, very different than trans. I've never really understood the acronym either.

[A]

It's a trap.

[B]

It completely yeah, but you can't say, like, go ahead, I'm a homophobe. Come at me, bro. I am married to a woman. It's tough to like. You could try. I haven't been hit with a racist card. Although I'm waiting for it. I don't know, maybe because my kid is Haitian and she gives me a pass. I have no idea. But, you know, you get certain protections simply because you're a card carrying member of the club. But I got hit with everything outside of that. You know, transphobe, fat shamer and anti science and ableist and privileged and all of that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, but all that stuff is losing its meaning. You know, the problem is you keep calling people, you call everyone a racist. Like, it doesn't mean anymore. You're crying wolf so many times that people don't listen anymore. Like, a real racist is horrific. You. You see, you run into a real racist, like, oh, my God, that's horrific. But it, you know, if you just call everyone a racist, if you go, math is racist. Like, okay, math's racist. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are racist. I've seen that. Okay.

[B]

Oh, I haven't seen that one.

[A]

Exercise is racist.

[B]

I did see that. Alt right, yes, wonderful. Alt right. Msnbc.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

Alt right. I liked that. I like that one a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will tell you, though, I don't think that it is losing as much power as I had hoped. And I reference Elon Musk, and here's why it's seemingly working. I know a lot of people that think he's an anti Semite. I'm like, you sure about that?

[A]

Well, they think he's a Nazi more than just an anti Semite.

[B]

These are reasonable people.

[A]

Yeah. And here's the irony. He's on the spectrum. So this thing, he didn't even realize what he's doing. My heart goes out to you.

[B]

But, Joe, what about the video? The montage of all the liberals, including aoc, doing, engaging in the same sig.

[A]

Hail Tim Walsh, I love you all. Yes. This is like a. It's like a thing that people have to stop doing.

[B]

But that's.

[A]

That's got to do it like this. You got to have two hands touch your heart. And then I'm not doing it. You know, when I was getting in trouble with CNN during the vaccine days, the COVID days, they would use a photograph of me from the UFC weigh ins. Because when I go to the UFC weigh ins, I say, welcome to the weigh ins, everybody. So they had this photo of me from the side with my. That's the one they used all the time. Time.

[B]

No. Okay. People.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Buy that. And they are still buying it. And that scares me. And in a argument on Piers Morgan, did raise my voice a little bit. I. I was like, well, I don't know. I don't think he's an anti semi. Number one, he's friends with the Jews. Number two, he hires Jews. And number three, he hasn't killed any Jews.

[A]

And they necklace around his neck that he's given to one of the mothers of the hostages. Bring them home.

[B]

Look, I remember him going after October 7th and talking about the videos that he'd seen, but the guy was like, oh, that's your benchmark. He doesn't kill Jews. And I was like, no, that's yours. You're the one comparing him to Hitler who killed 6 million Jews. So if you're going to draw that comparison. 0. 6 million. So shut the fuck up.

[A]

It's all dumb, but it's all a trick because what they're really doing is going after him because he's trying to go after. After usaid.

[B]

And so I, I see that slush fund, but can I tell you how many reasonable people and I, I cannot.

[A]

I have friends that I have to argue about it with.

[B]

Exact same. Yeah, that's when I tell you, like, I, I don't know, that it's actually losing its power.

[A]

It is. It's just not losing its power with really dumb people. And you're gonna have a certain percentage of really dumb people, and they're either gonna have to catch up or we're gonna have to overwhelm them with a lot of logic.

[B]

That.

[A]

And that takes time. And it takes a lot of these kind of conversations and they get out there and they get clipped. And maybe you and I said something here that will be taken out of context and used against you, which is always really fun. That's my favorite. Just take like a snippet of it.

[B]

See?

[A]

Told you. She's a this, she's a that. It's this reductionist thing where they try to define you by a string of words. Forget about your whole life.

[B]

They did that to Candace Owens?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, she's this disgusting anti Semite. So I listened to her. I listened to her answer all that stuff on her show, and then I listened to her debate it with Rabbi Shmuley. And I thought, okay, let's see what a bitch she is. And I listened to everything she said, and I checked it all and watched it in context. And then I actually sat with her. And I was like, all right, I can open the door.

[A]

I like Candace a lot, but Candace says a lot of wild shit she does. Not accurate. Like she thinks dinosaurs are fake.

[B]

I hear you. I get it, I get it.

[A]

That is like self inflicted. That's a self inflicted wound.

[B]

But do you think that I'm like, are you a Holocaust denier? No, I'm not a Holocaust denier. And then still to this day, she's a Holocaust denier.

[A]

Well, that's my friend Daryl Cooper, who was on my podcast because he said hyperbolically that Winston Churchill was one of the main villains of World War II because he started blockades and forced Hitler into action and starved the German people. It's like what he said was really unfortunate the way he said it, the way he said it. But he was trying to say that Winston Churchill did some things that if he hadn't done them, Maybe World War II wouldn't have gone the way it went. But the problem is when you say that and it gets taken out of context, people say, oh, he's a Holocaust denier and a Nazi sympathizer. But then you listen to his podcast, he's got this like. I think it's like 30 hours called fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem. And it's the most gut wrenching tale of the persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe. Just the beginning of it. I tell everybody, just listen to the first like 40 minutes of it. It's so heartbreaking. Like, this is not the words of a homophobe or, excuse me, of an anti Semite that would say those things. The reductionist things that people love to do.

[B]

But even still, here would be my argument to that. Let's say he was. If you're inclined to believe that, let's say that was his argument and that Hitler wasn't bad and it was Churchill. Then you're an asshole and an idiot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then there's no hope for you. This gatekeeping of.

[A]

But he's neither an asshole or an idiot. And he's being called an asshole and an idiot by people who don't consume his work.

[B]

Of course I'm saying this case scenario because I see this a lot with the gatekeeping of information and God forbid you don't fact check everybody on everything. Which has been something that I've gotten a bit of it like, well, you nodded your head and you said, I see your point. I'm like, well, sometimes I see their point and sometimes I don't know. And I can't fact check everything. And I'll talk to somebody else who has a different opinion. But people can think for themselves as well.

[A]

Yeah, there's just a lot of bad faith actors out there, and there's a lot of people that do that. This taking people out of context and trying to use this reductionist perspective and label people with these pejoratives that are inescapable. Like, it's in the. The racist, homophobe, anti semi. All those. Those are inescapable. And once you get hit with those, that's your. That's your. Your sticker on your forehead, rest of your life. And that's what they're trying to do to you because they're trying to silence you and. And because they want to win. And this is a real problem with human beings when it comes to ideas is that, like, if I believe something and you believe something differently, I don't want to listen to you. I want to beat you. Right. I want to overwhelm you with talk. I want to Piers Morgan you into submission. I want to yell at you. Not Pierce the human, but the show.

[B]

I know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, you want to yell at them and you want to win. You want to dunk on them. And this is why I don't engage with people on social media. I just think it's the worst way to communicate. And when I see people doing it, I genuinely feel bad for them because I think they're mentally ill. When people are dunking on people constantly on social media, I'm like, well, that's a sign of mental illness. Like, you're. There's something wrong with you, but you don't realize that yet. Like, this shit's been around for 20 years now, and you're still engaging in that kind of behavior on social media. It's stupid.

[B]

It gets clicks. That's what I think it is.

[A]

That's also part of the problem, is I get enough attention. I get enough attention, so I don't need to, like, reach out and try to get more, which is like, by the way, that's what you're supposed to do when you get a lot of attention. You're supposed to rise above, you know, with great power, great responsibility, supposed to try to be nicer, which I try. That's like one of my core tenants in life. Be as nice as possible. And here's a shocker. I find people are nice to me almost entirely. Like, very rarely are people not nice to me because I'm nice to everybody. So if you're nice to everybody, guess what people are nice to you, and even people I disagree with, like, disagree with fundamentally.

[B]

But you're listening to them, though. That's exactly what you're trying to say. Like, one of the conversations that I've referred to a couple times is the one I had with Matt Walsh. I don't know. I don't. There's no universe where I'm gonna change Matt Walsh's mind about gay marriage, but at least I want to understand them. And I also am hoping that some people who are in the middle of this argument and could be influenced might go my way. And there was. I cannot remember if this was a TED Talk or where this information or this story was put out in the world, but it was the story of a black man who ended up befriending a Grand wizard of the Klan and ended.

[A]

Daryl Davis.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

He's a friend of ours. He's been on the podcast a couple times. Oh, my God.

[B]

This story, like, I would.

[A]

Darryl's a mission.

[B]

Oh, my God. And it became the guy's, like, Godfather. The guy's kids.

[A]

Not just one. No. He's got more than a hundred of these KKK guys to give him their robes. Yeah. And convert and change them over just by the. Just by love. Just with love.

[B]

That's what I'm hoping in those conversations. That's power.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's. Daryl's a really amazing person and a shining example of what's possible when you just show people, like, he's like, man, you're different than all the others. Like, actually, I'm just a human. I just have more melanin in my skin, you know, and you are, unfortunately, you have been trapped by an ideology. You have othered people simply by their looks, you know, and you haven't learned this. This lesson that we were supposed to be taught by Dr. King in the 1960s. You know, Judge a man by the content of the character.

[B]

It must have been your show, actually, where I heard it, but it might have. Darryl's amazing the way that I approach 99% of my conversations, because I thought, okay, if I listen with an intent to hear and an intent to understand, and I can expose people to the things they're uncomfortable with in a way where we find common ground. I may not change their mind, but at least you're. In some cases, you hopefully can. And at least you're modeling, but it.

[A]

Takes so much time. You know, it's like Indiana Jones when the guy starts throwing the whipper and he just pulls the gun out and Just shoots him. Like, that's like, I just wanted to shut the fuck up, you know? And that's, that's what a lot of people like, especially today in this. Like, everybody wants to take Ozempic. You want a quick fix. You don't work out for fucking six years to lose £50. No, I want to just lose £50 in a month, you know? And this is the quick fix fix thing of today's society. And when you're offered this pill that makes you smarter instead of reading books, like, yeah, I'll take that pill. You know, like, this is the argument that I, I've said to people when they always talk about, you know, I don't have time for exercise. Like, I'm not interested in my body. Like, I'm. This is stupid. It's vain. It's this and that. I'm like, listen, huh? If I gave you a pill, just give you a pill, and that pill made you fit and healthy and muscular, you wouldn't take that pill.

[B]

Improved.

[A]

Why would you not want a body that works way better?

[B]

Improved your mood?

[A]

Yeah, of course you would.

[B]

Your sex life would get better. All of those things.

[A]

Of course you take it.

[B]

It's a defense mechanism, though. You, you know that, right? It's a fear that they would be incapable of following through on what's required, so they defend against it. It's the same shit you see with the people that are overweight and like, I don't care, or they make fun of their weight and like, they become the funny fat guy. It's. It's a defense mechanism.

[A]

Oh, I have a lot of friends like that, a lot of comedians. It's like their entire act, like being fat.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Big part of it. Yeah.

[B]

There's a guy, I, I went to kill Tony last night, and there was a comedian that was up first and he was 412 pounds. And they, the guys were doing what they obviously do, but there was a part of my heart that was splitting, of course, as I was like, deep down, this is. He's hurting. Deep down, this guy's hurting. Deep down. It's so funny.

[A]

I know, right? That's the problem.

[B]

Dying. I was dying inside for.

[A]

Also if you're £420 or whatever, he is like, boy, the road to becoming healthy is hundreds of pounds away. And that is so daunting. Especially when you, you, you have the pull of addiction.

[B]

Yes. And that's the big problem.

[A]

Yeah. And then you get eat. Intuitively. Intuitively.

[B]

Oh, my God. Which is impossible, by the way. Because the food is designed to override.

[A]

If I ate society, I eat only pizza. I would have a diet that's 100%. Yeah, pizza, fries and ice cream and Coca Cola would be my whole diet.

[B]

But the whole, the entire food system, all of the ultra processed foods is designed to override your body's signaling of satiety. It's fucking impossible. And then you couple that with the psychological vulnerabilities and it's a powder keg.

[A]

You sound like it had frozen podcasts.

[B]

I am. That's exactly what I am. Oh my God. I'm gonna get that tattoo, man. Afrozempic dragon believer.

[A]

Oh, Walt.

[B]

I got the sticker, by the way, to my suitcase. Fuck yeah, I like that. Afrozempic.

[A]

It's really kooky, it's weird. But the only way out is through conversations. The only way out is to educate people or enlighten people or expose people to other ideas. Like, you're not really going to educate them, but you will expose them to other ideas. And I think over time the good ideas will win. It's just, it's been so many years of bad ideas and it's so indoctrinating and it's so difficult. And then also it's your identity. Your identity is this, you know, whatever it is, whether you're Matt Walsh or Whether you're a 420 pound trans person, like, your identity is like embedded in whatever you think of yourself as being. And it's very difficult to take wisdom from someone that you think of as the enemy.

[B]

That's so true. And breaking that identity in particular when it works against someone. So one of the things that people can't believe in a reality they haven't experienced.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

And so one of the ways that I used to utilize fitness was to give them an experience that they didn't think they were capable of. So all of a sudden you've got this funny fat guy who just ran that mile without stopping or who just did the push up on the hands and the feet, who just did 10 pull ups in a row or even two. But once they look at their achievement, it's like, holy shit, I didn't know I was capable of this. And then you shatter that prison of limiting beliefs and you open up an infinity of possibility.

[A]

You also have to find a tribe. You have to surround yourself with other people that are trying to prove themselves. So if other people around you are trying to improve themselves, then it will encourage you to be a part of that group and you all do it together completely and then help each other. If you fall off the wagon and pick each other up and, like, reinforce positive behavior, you see all of that with.

[B]

You know, back in the day, I used to get so caught up in the fights about diets and fat diets and fad workouts. And as I've matured or like to think that I have matured, I don't even engage in that shit anymore. It really doesn't matter what workout you're doing, if you're doing it with a qualified professional or if it's. If people are showing up for CrossFit because they love CrossFit and they love the community, great. If they're showing up for Pilates because they love the community and they're showing up for it, great. As long as they're showing up for something and the person teaching them a great CrossFit coach matters. But that's a big difference between you herniating three discs and getting into the best shape of your life. So I would simply say look for qualified experts.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[B]

You know, I'm beyond the what's the best diet and what's the best. Who gives a fuck? As long as you're. If you're in a positive environment that's getting you to show up for it day after day after day.

[A]

Something's better than nothing and you're focusing on improving.

[B]

Yes. And that. That comes with community. For sure. You're absolutely.

[A]

That's what people love about CrossFit is the whole community of people. You go there, you're all working out together. I used to love that about yoga class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go to a bunch of people. I knew them all like, hey, what's up? You know, but you don't talk until after it's over. It's one of those things, like, they really discourage talking before, but, like, you're all sweating together, like, you're going through it together.

[B]

You.

[A]

There's no other way, you know? And then you get out the other end, you're like, wow, I wouldn't have done that by myself. I would have quit at, like, 40 minutes. But I did the whole 90 minutes, and now I feel better. And then the rest of the day is easy.

[B]

That's why I think community is such an integral part of treating addiction, because you. You have that supportive group to keep you accountable, to show up to feel like you're a part of something, and it. We've seen it work for you and work against you.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, again, it's also an integral part for an evil army, unfortunately.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You have to believe that. You have to kill these. Kill these heretics.

[B]

How do we tip things over to the world?

[A]

You have to make your side be more attractive. You have to make your side kinder and more empathetic and also more admirable.

[B]

Yes, you're right. The rewards have to be there. And admirable is one.

[A]

Yeah, you have to wish you had those characteristics and go, why don't I? Maybe I can. And just also realize you're not who you used to be. Okay. If you were a fat, alcoholic gambling addict, you don't have to stay that way forever. You just. You don't have to. You're not that. You're a human being. You were trapped with behavior and ideas that were not self serving. They're not good for people around you. You probably stole things to feed your addictions and you feel you have terrible self worth and terrible self image. But that's not you. That's who you have been. You are who you are are right now. So if you choose right now to be positive from here on out, and you're gonna have some mistakes and up along the way, but find a group. This is why Alcoholics Anonymous is so important. You get around these people and you all agree they're all like. And you have sponsors and you help each other. Like, this is the whole idea of community. We are not solitary individuals. We're just not. We are a collective organism experiencing itself in individual ways.

[B]

I agree with you. I. I do. I just, I want. I sometimes see evil winning out more often than not.

[A]

Well, because that's what's in the news and that's also what's in your algorithm, you know, and that's why you have to stay off social media.

[B]

You're.

[A]

Yeah, I feel so much better. I've been off social media like almost entirely for like, like a few. I don't like, really weaned off. About two weeks ago, I really followed my wife's footsteps because, like, she just got off and she's like, I feel so much better. I'm like, damn, that's crazy. And so I'm like, let me try it. And so I tried it for a day. I was like, why did I feel so much better after this day? And then I tried a couple days and then I'm like, oh, it's real. Like there's, you know, sugar. Sean O'Malley, UFC champion, he said, he goes, I get a low level anxiety when I'm scrolling through social Media. I'm like, right? What is that? Like, what is that? But that shit's real. It's also, you realize, like, you're just distracting yourself with this stupidity.

[B]

That's.

[A]

But when you don't. But when you don't do that, your mind feels better. It really does feel better. So I will occasionally, like, if I'm on the toilet, I'll, like, scroll through Twitter, find out what is everybody mad at? Then I'll put it away, you know? And then sometimes I'll go days without looking at it at all. And then sometimes, like, hey, like, I got a text the other day, like, hey, man, are you okay? Well, what. And they're like, oh, people are mad at you on Twitter. I'm like, okay, that's not the real world, bro. I don't even know what they're mad at. Like, no, don't reach. Like, a friend of mine sent me something that people are. I go, don't send me that shit. I'm not looking at it. I don't care.

[B]

Aren't you immune to that by now, though? You have been forged in fire, for fuck's sake. What are they gonna say to you at this point that you're even gonna care about?

[A]

Well, the thing is, it's not me. It's them. They think that I'm upset at this thing because they would be upset at this thing because they don't get attacked, right? So, like, my sister used to send me things like that. I'm like, don't send me that shit. I don't care.

[B]

Like, you know, I know my wife used to do that for a little while. Cause she would worry and want me to kind of, like, temper my behavior. My business partner would do the same thing. Like, oh, I really. Cause you should stay. And could you stay in the pocket here on the fitness stuff? But I found that the more I would lean into that, it didn't matter how many attacks would come my way, because you would resonate with the people that got it. And that ended up working better for me personally and professionally. But you're right, it is. It is their concern of how they would feel if people called them those things or came for them with the pitchforks.

[A]

And by the way, the worst thing you could do is fight back, which is really crazy. The worst thing you do is, like, interact with people that are attack. Which is really kind of. But that's everyone's instinct. Everyone's instinct is to go. I'll tell you what I think now.

[B]

You get caught up in it.

[A]

Yeah. You get caught up in it.

[B]

It's ridiculous. The only time I find myself doing that these days, and I'm going to stop it, is when my son will challenge me on something. And then my mother was like, we're debating something. She's like, honey, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're literally, you're litigating this with a 13 year old. And I was like, yeah, okay. And I, and you know why? Because I still care what my kids think about me. Sure. Instead of. But the rest of the world. I don't give a fuck.

[A]

Yeah, don't give a fuck. Well, you do, but also you can't control what people think.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

The only thing you could do is be undeniable.

[B]

That's, that's so well said. That is so well said.

[A]

That's all you have. And so what happens with haters is they challenge you to become more undeniable. And so that's good. That's what their job is. They make you steal losers of the world. They challenge you to become a bigger winner.

[B]

They really do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've learned how, especially in the health space when I would be active in a conversation about fitness or nutrition or what have you, you learn how to bulletproof yourself in that conversation.

[A]

Right. Because people fight so hard.

[B]

Oh man.

[A]

To keep their bad habits.

[B]

God, it, it is insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's also so much infighting in every industry, which, which bums me out. And that's when I, I just was like, what am I doing?

[A]

That's an attention thing. Right? They're upset that you're getting the attention that they think they deserve. Like, she doesn't even know what the she's talking about.

[B]

Like, but you know what?

[A]

A lot of that in the health space, you do.

[B]

And I hate it. And it's, it's super disappointing because we can share ideas and we can as, as you said, admit when we're wrong and, and learn and grow and, and what have you. But the real enemy is not another friggin doctor or another PhD with a different opinion.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, we've seen who the real enemy is and it's, it's big pharma. When it's got bad intentions or big food with bad intentions or big aggressive. It's not gonna be like the guy who has a different opinion on cholesterol, for fuck's sake.

[A]

It's not even that. It's just that that guy with a different opinion on cholesterol is getting a lot of attention. And then these people are comparing them, they're comparing themselves to that person. Why don't I get this certain attention? And the way to get the attention is to dunk on that person to say awful things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then people dunk on you. And then now you're, now your life is conflict. Okay, good job.

[B]

When they do, I like to sit down and see if there's truth there. Like you said, I've not been immune to some of Lane Norton's assaults. And you know what? We sat down and I was like, listen, Lane, the things you're going after me on are not from me. It's from this PhD, that PhD, this PhD and the American Medical association and had him on my podcast. And by the time we were done, he won me over. I was like, I believe you. I think you're right. I'm changing my position on this. But sometimes you're right. It's because someone is getting attention or there's envy there. And I would simply say you can intuit when a criticism might be legitimate and when you're seeing it over and over and over again and it's a similar thing, there's something to look at there. But outside of that, when you know it's bullshit.

[A]

There's also the problem with bots.

[B]

Oh yeah. Oh my God.

[A]

The vast majority of Twitter might be bots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, an FBI analyst that used to, he used to analyze big data sets. He said, he looked at Twitter and he said it might be about 80% bots.

[B]

Kara Swisher said that to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was blown away. You know what crazy. She was, she, I mean, and she would know and she was showing me stuff, these bot farms and shit all along the wall.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah. And then you're just engaging with.

[A]

Huh. And they, they shape narratives and it's crazy. Rogue states and different people use it. And I'm, I'm sure, like there's publicity firms that use it. I'm sure. I mean, I don't know.

[B]

I don't either.

[A]

But without questions. You could use it with AI. You know, you could, you could easily have one computer that would run many, many accounts and you could program it to have variations on a theme. But you see it sometimes when, like there's a lot of social media influencers that get co opted and one of the things that you see is a very similar message, you know, and they use very similar phrasing. You know, Sharp as attack was one of them. And you, you saw that over and over again with Biden like sharp as attack.

[B]

Sharp as attack, yeah. Oh my gosh.

[A]

So they were getting influenced and they were getting paid.

[B]

Yes. You know who. Did you ever see that? I'm sure. Of course you would have. But I remember when I was talking to Senator Johnson and he was exposing me to the Trusted News Initiative. And this is the whole. The newscasters that have the exact same script and say the exact same thing. And it. But in friggin in broad daylight.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

There's. Guys, we have clips of all of you.

[A]

Same exact same thing.

[B]

The exact same thing. It's so clear. It's a narrative. And when he told me he was God, this was. This blew my mind. He went pre Covid to. He was talking about this event at the Milken Institute where Fauci and I. Oh my God, I'm gonna screw this up. I think it's this guy, Rick Bright. Forgive me. Cause this may be wrong, but this group of people, definitely Fauci, were talking about what it would take to get a global vaccine program. Fauci says probably gonna take a pandemic. And this is like, like five months before COVID Not that, you know, just put my tin hat on and roll myself in tinfoil and jump all the way down the rabbit hole. But then Avril Haines said, well, what are we gonna do about misinformation at this event that she'd put on shortly after that. And he said that's where they came up with the Trusted News initiative. Right in time.

[A]

Well, not only that, they came up with a new term. And that term is malinformation.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Do you know what mal information is? Malformation is true information that might do harm.

[B]

Did not know this.

[A]

So there's misinformation, disinformation and mal information.

[B]

I have not heard that.

[A]

Mal information was something they were trying to promote during the Biden administration as being dangerous. And it's essentially the truth.

[B]

I knew the We've got to reconsider the First Amendment. Yeah, I've seen all those clips. That is some scary shit. It's like Senator Kerry, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, and do we criminalize people who are promoting this misinformation? But I did not hear.

[A]

Malin, did you ever see the CEO of NPR doing a TED Talk saying that sometimes the truth gets in the way of getting things done?

[B]

Oh God, no. But I've heard them all say that.

[A]

Oh my God. It's an infantilization. Infantilization of the public because they're too stupid to handle the truth. They're dumber. Than you. You're the purveyor of information, and you need to give them the information that gets things done. And sometimes you have to lie to them. Like, vaccines are safe and effective.

[B]

You. Oh, my God. What did you post? I think it was the COVID of the New Yorker that said something about doing away with the First Amendment. And I.

[A]

Wonderful idea.

[B]

Wait, what the fuck are you talking about? It's not like a number 14, by the way, or number five is a number one. The First Amendment.

[A]

It's in the way. It's in the way that to me.

[B]

When you're having this debate about Kamala versus Trump, I'm like, how do you guys have this selective outrage about what's flipping your shit? I want due process for Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who, you know, probably beats his wife and is a suspect. I get it. I want to see.

[A]

He's got MS.13 tattooed on his knuckles. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, come on. And there was a deportation order. Just say it like, so you can't.

[A]

See that photographs that his wife puts out where she covers his knuckles in every picture.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Hilarious. I mean, so I was saying, oh, my God. They deported a Maryland man and a father. Because that's what I would read in the news.

[B]

Same.

[A]

And then you get into it. Oh, wait a minute. Oh, hold on. And then you. They released the dash cam footage. The. The police footage of when they arrested him. Not dash cam. You know, whatever the cops are wearing.

[B]

I know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought the exact same.

[A]

It's crazy, but it's just, like, you can't just go on narratives, because these narratives are just designed to make the Trump administration look like monsters.

[B]

I was giving an interview to this woman from the New York Times, and she's like, don't you see this? And I was like, I do see it, and I don't understand it, and I wish it would be different, but, you know, but then you get into the lesser evils. I wrote her back, and I was like, I don't agree with my previous position based on the current information available to me now, it seems like he.

[A]

Was a gang, but then there was that gay hairdresser that, like, seems like he just got roped up.

[B]

I know. And what I have learned so far, because I've really been trying to get to the bottom of that one, because I don't understand why the left isn't leaning on that one. The other guy beats his wife. Suspected trafficker. Like, you want to be outraged? Like, this guy is a gay hairdresser. I guess he committed. I was listening to Tim Pool talk about this immigration fraud. So listen.

[A]

Okay, but that doesn't. He doesn't belong in an El Salvador prison.

[B]

I agree with you completely.

[A]

Also, he's not even from El Salvador, which is really crazy.

[B]

Now, okay, hold on. Here would be the argument there, I think, if I'm understanding it correctly, is that if somebody can be deported but they are withheld because of asylum, Correct me if I'm wrong here. Because they worry going back to their home country is dangerous or deadly. Like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Right, because he's not a gang member, but he's afraid of being killed by other gangs that aren't Ms. 13. You caught that one, right? So it's like, I can't go home because the other gangs will kill me, but I'm not a gang member. Nevertheless, there's a deportation order on him. So I believe that they can just send him to a third country. And that's not illegal. That's something I heard.

[A]

Okay, so just immigration fraud. When you're a gay address, you don't. They don't throw them in a concert.

[B]

You could not be more right about that. But tell me, then, why is the left not hanging there? Why is he not the poster child? That guy?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his knuckles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look, people don't agree that that's what that means. Oh, dude. I've talked to a guy who's a gang expert.

[B]

Two separate courts agreed.

[A]

I talked to a guy gang expert, explained it to me. He's like, yeah, this is how it works.

[B]

There's also an informant who confirmed there's.

[A]

Different versions of MS.13, but that's what it means. Like marijuana. Smiley face. Jesus. And. And then the skull that. I don't. I just. I'm just saying when I'm looked online. Okay, you can look online, but, I mean, I talked to a gang expert that told me that was explaining to me. And there's a bunch of different versions.

[B]

Of gang tattoos that determined he was an MS.13 gang member. The cops had an informant that was an extremely reliable source that said he is Ms. The guy. The wife was like, he beats me. And then withdrew, I guess, but had filed a report, Senate protection order in 2021. The cops pulled the guy over with eight guys in the car going, like, from Texas to Maryland, I think, or from Maryland to Texas, no luggage, no tools, and suspected him of trafficking. I mean. And again, I will simply say, if you didn't apply For a.

[A]

Why are they hanging their hat on this one and not the gay hair?

[B]

I'm asking you that. What is the latest, you're sacrificial lamb?

[A]

Because I heard Glenn Greenwald talk about the gay hairdresser and that one seems the most compelling.

[B]

I agree completely.

[A]

But there's no logic in this world anymore. It's all kooky, like, whatever to gets traction. You know, maybe it's because he's got kids. Oh, it's a father, Maryland father, You know, like that's what it is. Like I keep saying, wrongly deported, MD father. Like, what? What Wrongly? Why? Tell me why. What's wrong about it?

[B]

He had a deportation order 100%. And then said, I am worried that the other gangs will kill me. And so that's when they withheld the deportation order. But he can be deported to another country legally. That's the part that if he's not a gang member, why is he worried about being killed by other gangs? I'm just like, this is a common sense piece that we.

[A]

The whole place.

[B]

I'd hang my hat on the gay hairdresser guy.

[A]

It's kooky.

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

It's also like, imagine, you know, inheriting this problem. Like you've had open borders for four years and they've let thousands and thousands of potential criminals in here, if not millions. They've let millions of people. Who knows how many of these people are suspected terrorists. It's not just one, not zero. Okay, so what's the number? I don't know. How many of them are gang members? Is it zero? No, it's not zero. So there's. They let in gang members. Okay, how many of them are in the cartel? It's not zero. Okay, well, what the fuck do you do? What do you do if you want to clean up this mess that has been en masse for four years, just flooded open borders. Not just open borders, but like busing them in, flying them in, giving them debit cards, giving them phones.

[B]

Oh my God. Interest free loans in California. Loopholes that Gavin Newsom has created to give them health care.

[A]

Billions of dollars in health care.

[B]

My frigging 35 year old brother can't get a home loan and can't get health care, but his tax dollars.

[A]

He needs to change his name in Mexico and walk across the border.

[B]

I told him a couple of times, I was like, greg, you know, burn the passport, babe. This will work. You know, he's half Latin, he's my half brother, he could get away with it. He's looks the part. It is. It is bananas. And I.

[A]

But it's all a political ploy. And the idea they're not doing it to get votes is crazy, because that's what they're doing. There's a reason why the vast majority of them get moved to swing states. Like they're doing it on purpose. And Elon has been talking about this, and it's one of the other reasons why they call him a Nazi.

[B]

I've had this conversation with intelligent people, and they're like, well, there's no evidence that they're voting. Okay. But here, if we were to game this all the way out, if I was to hit Elon's points that I believe I understand. First of all, I think they can vote in some states in local elections.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Karen Bass. Karen Bass becomes Gavin Newsom becomes, God forbid, the President of the United States. So there's a reason we've got this whole grassroots thing going on, I would imagine. And then I'm told that when they sign up for benefits, they potentially can sign them up to reach out to them to vote. That could be conspiracy theory, though. Very much so. I'm talking out of my ass. I don't know.

[A]

Right. But it's not a conspiracy that they're giving them Social Security numbers.

[B]

Oh, did not know that.

[A]

Yeah. Because if you. This is. There's a woman who was explaining when she was working for the Social Security office what they would. Would have her do so with. They would have them get permanent disability. And the way they get permanent disability is just to have to say you have a back problem. So if you have a back problem, then you have permanent disability. And if you get permanent disability, then they start labeling them as a client. If you label them as a client, then they get money forever. And so if. Then you have people like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi and all these people saying, we need to give these people a road to citizenship. Okay, well, then you potentially have millions and millions of people. Now, if the Democrats are in charge, they can change the rules and make it so that these people have a road to citizenship. Then they can vote on elections. So now you've imported millions of people that are going to vote for sure for the people who gave them the money, not for the people who hired Tom Holman to kick everybody out.

[B]

Here's another question. Why are you not requiring identification to vote?

[A]

Because it's racist. Oh. Well, not only are you not requiring it in California, you're not allowed to show it. It is A illegal to show your identification when you vote.

[B]

That's just.

[A]

There's only one reason why you would do that. It's because you want fraud.

[B]

Exactly. When I ask people who are on the other side, I'm like, it gained this out for me. Steel, man, this argument.

[A]

What is the Kathy Hochschul's logic about that? No, A lot of these black kids, they don't even know what a computer is.

[B]

Oh, I have seen that. Oh, my God. And I saw the black guy making fun of her.

[A]

Yes. Just like, running around the computer like, what is that? This.

[B]

God. Which is the most racist.

[A]

The most racist thing possibly say, by the way, every kid has a computer. They all have phones.

[B]

Did you see that video? I think it came out of Prager U where they were saying, like, well, you know, black people, don't they. I. It was the. Like, they don't have access to ID and they can't figure out same thing. Figure it's the most disgustingly racist thing.

[A]

You tell me that. You could say, what about poor white people that live in West Virginia?

[B]

So gross.

[A]

Dirt poor.

[B]

You know, staggeringly gross.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Okay, how about this one? I've also been told that the more people you have in a census, it doesn't matter if they're legal citizens. Get more representation.

[A]

Yeah. You get more seats.

[B]

Well, then effectively, you can make a president a lame duck if you've got.

[A]

Exactly. That's why California is losing seats, because people are escaping. That is what it is. It's escaping.

[B]

I go on record as saying I am pro legal immigration.

[A]

Well, I'm the grandchild of immigrants. My whole family came from Italy and Ireland.

[B]

Unless you're Native American. And when you appreciate the ways in which legal immigration enriches a community, stimulates the economy, and you can control the flow. And as Gad Saad likes to explain, they support their host community when they're brought in legally, but when it's illegal, it overwhelms the infrastructure. You bring in criminals. You don't know who's here.

[A]

Suicidal empathy.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's such a genius. He's an app. Thanks to you. I know of him for many years now, and, I mean, he's an absolute genius. He articulates it like no one else.

[A]

And he's, you know, seeing the rise of anti Semitism in Montreal right now at a staggering rate.

[B]

I have to admit that I.

[A]

He's a guy. I escaped Lemon for the same reasons.

[B]

I do tend to lean. Dave Smith. After. After the show. You did the Other day, I reached out to him and I was like, all right, I gotta tell you, I've always leaned more pro Israel. And I was you, you opened my mind to a few things and I.

[A]

Don'T become a monster, fight monster. But that's the thing. It's like, like the horrors that you're seeing in Gaza, it's like, okay, you're fighting Hamas. Hamas are monsters. That's right. Yeah.

[B]

But like you didn't let aid into the country. Yeah, Even worse, I didn't even know that I killed aid workers.

[A]

It gets scary.

[B]

That's when I, it gets really scary.

[A]

When, you know, you believe that someone's helping the enemy, so they become the enemy.

[B]

And it's not that you don't like Jews, you know, I'll preface by saying my grandmother ran from the friggin Nazis. And according to my 23andMe, 30something% Jewish, however, it, it's, it, I don't necessarily like Netanyahu and I don't agree with a lot of the ways he's handled it, but it doesn't mean I don't understand what happened. I'm not appalled, I'm not disgusted. I, I, I, I'm, I personally think that kid Mahmood Khalil should get the out of here. Personally, I'm sorry, like I, the kid, I could get into that one too. Like, I see all of that and I lean more towards the Israel.

[A]

Well, I completely understand how they could look at things the way they are. They're surrounded.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're surrounded by Arab states. And you know, I mean, if you have been attacked relentlessly since the beginning of, you know, whatever, 1948, if it's.

[B]

In the charter, you know, kill all Jews, I mean, that's, you know, that's not good. I don't know.

[A]

You know, then you see like trans people from Palestine, like, hey, like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Do you fucking know what they would do to you? Oh my God, I've been there. But yeah, it's, it's complicated. Right? The world is a very complicated thing.

[B]

It's a nuanced conversation as well. I gotta tell you, I was riveted by that debate and both of them made excellent points. I learned a ton and changed my mind on some things. Like I, I friggin loved it. I thought they both, I'm sorry, at the end of the day, I thought they both made great points. I really did.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I just wish that Douglas didn't misrepresent certain people.

[B]

I understand that like Darryl Darrell, gentlemen.

[A]

The Darrell thing's crazy.

[B]

I didn't. I actually never saw that show with him. So I wasn't able to fully comprehend the accusations and simply thought like, you can't gatekeep information. And people are. If somebody's going to believe that. If this was in fact the truth. Right. And he was this guy that was saying Hitler was innocent and. Or not innocent, but the lesser evil. With regard to Churchill versus Hitler, he.

[A]

Definitely wasn't saying that. But what he was really saying that apparently historians also agree with it that Hitler kind of hid his anti Semitism early on and that early on during his rise, he would keep it confined. Like the really rampant anti Semitism, he'd keep it confined to these, like smaller meetings. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's like he's like, he's Jewish, isn't he?

[B]

A Jew, wasn't he? I think Hitler was a Jew.

[A]

What? Jamie, will you check that Hitler was a Jew?

[B]

Hold on. I think so. I think he had some Jewish blood. Check it real quick, will ya?

[A]

I remember hearing that sounds crazy.

[B]

I remember hearing something was.

[A]

Also, you believed in the Aryan race with blonde hair, blue eye. Hey, bro, that's not you.

[B]

That's not it. Hold on. I feel like there was some. Hold on. Oh, is it?

[A]

No, he was not Jewish. While rumors and conspiracy theories have circulated suggesting a Jewish grandfather, a Jewish ancestry, these claims are not supported by any historical evidence and are widely dismissed.

[B]

Oh, Jesus. All right. I shut the bet on that one. I shit the bet on that one.

[A]

It's really fascinating because he is the. One of the worst figures in history. Like everybody other than really complete psychopaths agree with that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Figures in human history.

[B]

If you can't disseminate that bit of information because let's say again, hypothetically, this gentleman Darrell was trying to make that point, then you're an idiot. If you can't determine. There are skinheads in KKK that are gonna tell you the same thing. If you can't determine that that person up, you're an idiot.

[A]

That's not really the argument though. It's like no one's really saying that.

[B]

No, I know. I'm trying to. I'm suggesting that if the worst case scenario was that. But I, I appreciate what you're saying. That wasn't his point. And you know, I haven't done any. I have not done any homework on it.

[A]

He tries to look at things from everybody's view. He tries like imagine you're this person. Imagine you're a German citizen and you've just gotten through World War I and the whole world hates you. Like, imagine this. And then the drug thing is a big part of World War II. It's a giant part of it. Like the fucking whole army was on meth. That is so crazy. That is so fucking crazy. Really, you should read Blitzed. It's really fascinating because they had like a prescription, like a over the counter meth that you could buy was called Privet.

[B]

The candy thing.

[A]

Pervitin.

[B]

Yes. I remember seeing that. It was everywhere.

[A]

It's nuts.

[B]

And it was like a little candy tin.

[A]

Yeah. They were all eating meth. Super productive. That's why they have such great engineers. They're like, they're dialed in, you know?

[B]

This is true.

[A]

This is.

[B]

You make. Yeah. Okay. Oh, God damn, that's bright. I took a lot of dark, dark spots here.

[A]

There's a lot of darkness in human history. A lot of it, a lot of evil, a lot of horrible consequences and a lot of lessons that we really learn, but then unlearn. And that's what people are terrified of with this like, Hitler apologist perspective. Like, don't unlearn this one huge fucking lesson that, you know, look, a guy like Hitler can exist. They can rise to power and become monsters and destroy countless lives. Like, it's impossible to really quantify the amount of damage that guy did. Don't unlearn that. And I get that. I get that. But don't also label someone as someone who didn't learn that when they did. They're talking about it openly discussing. I mean, Daryl talks about what a fucking psychotic drug addled monster Hitler was all the time. Like it's a part of his stuff, but you would have to actually consume his work. And Douglas admittedly never listened to him. He was just taking this narrative, this. This like very reductionist narrative. It's very incorrect and just saying it over and over again and saying it on Bill Maher to. Applause breaks. But it's not what he's saying. It's stupid.

[B]

I did see that. I was kind of disappointed.

[A]

It's okay, you know, but. But you don't. Oh, no, it's not, you know, it's not correct.

[B]

I hear you. Do you find that you fall victim to that sometimes? I see myself do it occasion where you hear a narrative and I don't dig deeper on it. And I've been guilty of it a couple of times.

[A]

I apologize to Bobby Kennedy when he came here because I said I believed everything about you before I read your book. I thought you were this kook who doesn't believe in vaccines and he's an anti science guy and a conspiracy theorist. And then I read the real Anthony Fauci. I was like, oh, that book's fucking nuts.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And by the way, again, said it before. Say it again. He would be sued if it wasn't true. And it is true. And what he did during the. Just what he did during the AIDS crisis. And I know that they. They gave him a blanket pardon from everything from 2014. Weird. Where did they choose that date? Where they choose that date when Obama had decided to get rid of gain of function research and this motherfucker was, like, outsourcing it.

[B]

Yep, he was.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

You know what's crazy? We're still not having that conversation. No, not in any meaningful way.

[A]

Well, at least it's in the White House now. That. And that page is very comprehensive. But it's. All right. Go to that page again because it's kind of hilarious because it trumps in the middle of it, like walking like he's getting shit done. You see that?

[B]

You see this?

[A]

I'm not seeing it. That might be how they tricked him into putting this page out there.

[B]

That's the irony, I think. Didn't he? Obama put a moratorium on it. And I think Trump lifted the frigging moratorium thing.

[A]

Think it happened.

[B]

Oh, my God, look at this. Stop.

[A]

I'm here to take care of business. I got a serious look on my face. And why are they, like, the true origins of COVID 19. Like, Covid signed it. Oh, what is that? Why is it a signature?

[B]

You know what? Cali posted this and he's like, can any scientist tell me what on this page isn't true? And I kind of thought this was a joke. I thought it was. It was.

[A]

No, scroll, scroll through the whole thing. It is explaining the whole thing. The virus possesses. Scroll up. Virus possesses biological characteristics that is not found in nature in, you know, italics. Data shows that all COVID 19 cases stem from a single in italics, single introduction into humans. This runs contrary to previous pandemics where there were multiple spillover events. Wuhan is home to China's foremost SARS research lab, which has a history of conducting gain of function research, gene altering and organism supercharging at inadequate biosafety levels. And this is where Fauci, you know, they could get him on perjury because he was, you know, when he was being questioned, he. When he said, famously To Rand Paul.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You do not know what you are talking about. Yeah, yeah, look, it's a photo of him with his hand. Look at his.

[B]

You've read the email where he. His team obviously is like, yo, listen, this is.

[A]

This is gain a function research. And then after he communicated with them, they all changed.

[B]

For the sake of science and global harmony, let's not, you know, pursue this path. And then the nature study came out and that's.

[A]

Yeah. So you can download the house oversight.

[B]

Crazy. That looks like a report my dog would put together, by the way, for high school.

[A]

Yeah. It's so crazy.

[B]

But what's even more amazing is that each and every one of those points is exactly what Brett Weinstein laid out on your show in March of 2020.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember.

[A]

And he was labeled a grandma killer.

[B]

I pulled the freaking car over and started googling on the side of Pacific Coast Highway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was my Neo moment in the Matrix. That was it. I was forever gone. Took the red pill.

[A]

I'm glad you took it.

[B]

It was over, man.

[A]

I'm glad you're on the right side.

[B]

Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.

[A]

Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed talking to you too. It was a lot of fun.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Keep fighting the good fight.

[B]

I will. You too.

[A]

Thank you. All right, bye, everybody.