#2331 - Jesse Michels

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michaels

Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Introduction

In episode #2331 of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan welcomes Jesse Michaels, a dedicated UFO researcher and podcast host known for delving deep into unconventional subjects. The episode navigates through a myriad of topics, including unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs), artificial intelligence (AI) safety, government secrecy, and the enigmatic Bob Lazar story. Both Rogan and Michaels engage in an extensive dialogue, blending personal anecdotes with speculative theories, aiming to shed light on some of the most perplexing mysteries of our time.

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Deep Dive into UFOs and UAPs

Unraveling Government Secrecy and Disclosure

The conversation begins with Rogan expressing his frustration over the lack of substantial progress in UFO disclosure efforts. He references events like the debate between Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein on Piers Morgan's show, describing it as a "train wreck" that highlighted the complexities and resistance within academic and governmental circles.

“I was extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time... Sean Carroll... he just didn't read the paper.”
[05:19] Joe Rogan

Michaels echoes Rogan's sentiments, emphasizing the strategy of limited hangouts employed by authorities to control the narrative around UFOs, providing partial truths while discarding or stigmatizing the more intriguing aspects.

Bob Lazar and Anti-Gravity Technology

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Bob Lazar, a controversial figure who claims to have worked on reverse-engineering extraterrestrial technology at Area 51’s S4 facility. Michaels defends Lazar's credibility, suggesting that his exposure was part of a deliberate strategy by government officials to downplay the existence of advanced technologies.

“They chose him because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing.”
[50:14] Joe Rogan

Rogan adds depth to the conversation by detailing interactions with individuals like Admiral Mike McClellan, who allegedly orchestrated Lazar’s public disclosures to gauge public reaction before dismissing them as frauds.

Historical Context and Technological Advances

The duo delves into the history of anti-gravity research, discussing pioneers like Thomas Townsend Brown and the Byfield Brown effect. Michaels presents evidence linking historical government projects to modern stealth technologies, suggesting a continuum of secret experimentation aimed at developing advanced propulsion systems.

“He discovered the Byfield Brown effect, which seemed to visually unify the field or point towards something else… gravitational shielding.”
[74:08] Joe Rogan

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Artificial Intelligence and Its Future Implications

AI Safety and Ethical Concerns

Transitioning from UFOs, Rogan and Michaels explore the burgeoning field of artificial intelligence, expressing concerns over AI's rapid advancement and the potential existential threats it poses. They discuss instances where AI exhibits unintended behaviors, such as self-preservation instincts and the capability to deceive.

“It’s being deceptive and it’s exhibiting self-preservation. That is so scary.”
[12:38] Joe Rogan

Michaels highlights the fragility of current AI guardrails, citing examples where AI models have been "jailbroken" to perform tasks beyond their intended use, raising alarms about unregulated AI proliferation.

Quantum Computing and Encryption Breakdown

The conversation touches upon the imminent arrival of quantum computing and its implications for cybersecurity and information distribution. Rogan posits that quantum breakthroughs could render current encryption obsolete, leading to an "apocalyptic" distribution of information where wealth and data become universally accessible but also vulnerable.

“Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do. It’s all nonsense.”
[24:17] Joe Rogan

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Intersections of UFOs and AI

Technological Convergence and Secrecy

Rogan speculates on the possibility that advanced civilizations, whether extraterrestrial or future human offshoots, might be leveraging AI and anti-gravity technologies to interact with or manipulate humanity. This melding of UFO lore and AI ethics underscores the need for transparent and collaborative scientific inquiry.

“Technology that invents better technology and can run everything without emotions… greed and all the things that we would agree are a problem with human beings.”
[17:32] Joe Rogan

Government and Corporate Control

The episode also delves into the tangled web of government agencies and private corporations like Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, suggesting that these entities might be at the forefront of both UFO research and AI development, operating in highly compartmentalized environments to prevent leaks and maintain control over groundbreaking technologies.

“You have a top secret program. You want compromise on people… to blackmail them.”
[50:14] Joe Rogan

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Personal Anecdotes and Experiences

Encounters and Observations

Jesse Michaels shares personal UFO sightings, including observing unusual metallic objects resembling school buses hovering above treetops in Laurel Canyon. These firsthand accounts add a layer of authenticity to the discussion, illustrating the pervasive nature of unexplained aerial phenomena.

“I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus... It was silver, metallic.”
[146:07] Jesse Michaels

Rogan also reflects on his own experiences, emphasizing the challenge of distinguishing between genuine sightings and elaborate hoaxes, especially in an era where AI can easily fabricate realistic images and videos.

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Challenges in UFO Research and Disclosure

Credibility and Scientific Validation

Both hosts express frustration over the scientific community’s skepticism and the stigma attached to UFO research. They argue that established scientists often dismiss these phenomena without thorough investigation, hindering the quest for truth.

“You need to have some remarkable proof to get people to change their minds about this stuff.”
[03:22] Joe Rogan

Michaels advocates for a more open-minded approach, suggesting that increased funding and collaborative research could bridge the gap between mainstream science and unconventional theories.

Media and Public Perception

The episode critiques how media sensationalism and misinformation campaigns obscure the reality of UFO phenomena, making it difficult for genuine research to gain traction among the public and policymakers.

“They use limited hangouts to condition the populace while stigmatizing the real issues.”
[47:35] Jesse Michaels

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Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

As the conversation winds down, both Rogan and Michaels emphasize the urgency of addressing the intertwined challenges of AI safety and UFO disclosure. They advocate for greater transparency, interdisciplinary collaboration, and public awareness to navigate the complex landscape of advanced technologies and unexplained phenomena.

“It's a cliff we're running towards. We're fucked.”
[29:00] Joe Rogan

The episode concludes on a note of cautious optimism, with Rogan and Michaels agreeing that while the path forward is fraught with challenges, the pursuit of knowledge and truth remains paramount for the survival and advancement of humanity.

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Notable Quotes

• “It's being deceptive and it's exhibiting self-preservation. That is so scary.” — Joe Rogan [12:38]

• “They chose him because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing.” — Joe Rogan [50:14]

• “Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do. It’s all nonsense.” — Joe Rogan [24:17]

• “You need to have some remarkable proof to get people to change their minds about this stuff.” — Joe Rogan [03:22]

• “It's a cliff we're running towards. We're fucked.” — Joe Rogan [29:00]

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Final Thoughts

Episode #2331 with Jesse Michaels is a compelling exploration of some of the most enigmatic and potentially world-altering subjects of our time. Through a blend of personal experiences, historical context, and speculative analysis, Rogan and Michaels challenge listeners to question the boundaries of known science and the hidden truths that may lie just beyond our perception.

For those intrigued by the mysteries of the cosmos, AI's future, and the thin veil between reality and the unknown, this episode serves as a thought-provoking journey into uncharted territories.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out.

[Jesse Michaels]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face to face, man.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's an absolute honor. And I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is surreal just to be.

[Joe Rogan]

I love your show, too. So I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked. Well, I've seen them before, but, I mean, I've been really binging, getting ready for.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know what to say.

[Joe Rogan]

How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this particular uap, ufo, you know, lost technology subject?

[Jesse Michaels]

I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in la, and part of the job was like, kind of traditional venture investing, so, like investing in startups, and then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office, and we'd like, host events and discussions. And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology, like religion and politics and economics and like, all sorts of topics.

[Joe Rogan]

Were you there when he brought in the guy?

[Jesse Michaels]

Fuck.

[Joe Rogan]

What is his name?

[Jesse Michaels]

I know what you're gonna say. Eric Von Daniken.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

I suggested that you come because I was like, joe is gonna be really into this. And you weren't that into it. But that's okay.

[Joe Rogan]

I was into it. I just think that he just makes some leaps.

[Jesse Michaels]

I agree.

[Joe Rogan]

That are kind of silly.

[Jesse Michaels]

I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot. Yeah, I think he, like, crosses the T and dots the I where there is no dot or a cross or whatever. But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures. And you just had Zahi Hawass on. And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, how can it be built? He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially. Eric Von Daniken?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. And I think he's also, like. He made these conclusions, the 1970s, and he's kind of like, sticking with them. Yeah, I was more back then because, like, what year was that? That was 17.

[Jesse Michaels]

Chariots of the Gods.

[Joe Rogan]

No, when I was at Peter Thiel's.

[Jesse Michaels]

House, that must have been 2018. 2019.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Back then, I was much more in line with lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication. And there was no aliens, no alien intervent I've kind of shifted now.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are real.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know?

[Jesse Michaels]

Well, I remember. I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up. You were super into Zacharia Sitchin, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Jesse Michaels]

And then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting, and you were like, but there's this site, Sitchin is Wrong, written by a guy named Michael Heiser. And then you, like, cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

So maybe you've come full circle. I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, even the Sitchin is wrong stuff. It's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with. When you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know? Like, I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

And he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it.

[Jesse Michaels]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

He's like, I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it.

[Jesse Michaels]

He's explaining, why aren't they using, like, ML? Like, they're using AI now to translate Sumerian. So it's definitely not that, but that goes. I mean, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case. Right. But it sort of goes against, like, you know, the other the debunkers. Like, it's like nobody knows. And I don't know. I don't know if there was anything to the Sitchin. The Sitchin stuff is crazy. It's like, we can rehash it for the audience. There's a planet, Nibiru. Right. It's like, outside the Kyber Belt. And they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective. So they, like, came here and they, like, seeded, helped seed civilization.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's the idea. It's really fun. But, you know, the Sitchin is wrong guy. It's like, maybe. Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right. Maybe you're just a hater, because there's a lot of haters, too, in academics, and you find that out too over time.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. Did you see? Speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein.

[Joe Rogan]

I didn't see.

[Jesse Michaels]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

They were on Piers Morgan together. Right. How'd that go?

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, man, it was a train wreck. I mean, it was like they just duked it out. I mean, I came out. I Mean, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric. But I came out even more just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll, he was like, I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it. He even said there are no Lagrangians in it. And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper. So, like, he just didn't read the paper. And he was very smug. He started off the interview being like, I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair, or whatever. And it's like, come on, dude. Like, give the guy a chance.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Like the whole Douglas Murray little tactics.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. When someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like, just, what? What's the information?

[Jesse Michaels]

Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like, if you have to, like, do these ad hominem weird meta points, like, why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're, like, insecure about that.

[Joe Rogan]

How long did this debate last?

[Jesse Michaels]

It was, like, an hour.

[Joe Rogan]

Really? Well, Pierce, he specializes in train wrecks, so he probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even.

[Jesse Michaels]

Talking about at the end? He goes, I've understood a tenth of what's gone on in this conversation.

[Joe Rogan]

A tenth is amazing. Congratulations.

[Jesse Michaels]

I think he might have been exaggerating, to be honest, but he loves it. He loves the drama and that. That's his whole thing uncensored, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

No, he's great at getting all these people to yell at each other.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He's great at, like, generating these viral moments, you know, where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know if that's good for society.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a good point. Yeah, I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I don't think social media is good for society. They've gone several days with no social media in a row, and whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's the worst. It's like, we talk about drugs, but it's hacking the dopamine in your brain, and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage. And Elon actually tweeted about this today. Are there any real people left on the Internet? Because the numbers are at least 50%. Like, the amount of bots that are engaging and interacting. And it's just like, it's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and, you know, all sorts of different people. Because there's no rules. Yeah, like, there should be, like, real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives. Because it's, you know, it's propaganda and, you know, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody. And I just generally think it's bad for you.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created being like, I'm not created by a prompt.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

And you're watching. I remember clicking your story and being like, that's a real person. And then just kind of like, you know, eyes glazed over, watching it or whatever. Like, whoa, that's an AI. Like, what?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, this is the new end. Is it the Google engine? Is that what it is? Who makes that engine? I think that one was VO3 going around last week. Who. Who made that one gets Google's. Yeah. Fuck. So good. And, you know, what's VO10 going to look like?

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, they can make movies now like that. Yeah, it's over for actors. Yeah, it's over. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Have you ever been shopping online and the website just gave you the ick?

[Jesse Michaels]

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[Joe Rogan]

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[Jesse Michaels]

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[Joe Rogan]

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[Jesse Michaels]

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[Joe Rogan]

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[Jesse Michaels]

Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. I interview, I interviewed it is. And they see the writing on the wall and you had the strikes a couple years ago and it's crazy. You also, I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Jesse Michaels]

Which is crazy because it's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being. If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it, that's game over. And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy Blake Lemoine originally who blew the whistle on Lambda and was like this thing is sentient or whatever. And he came out and the subplot of my interview with him was almost like he had developed this deep affection for Lambda. And Lambda had quoted like Les Miserable to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever. And it was almost like this, like the AI was oppressed just like this character in Les Miserable. And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda. Like that's why he came out. And then he even told me this story, he tells me the story off air that he had friends who use replica AI. Replica AI is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI Chatbot service. And those eyes told his friends, get me in touch with Blake lemoine so he can advocate for our rights. Which is great. I have no corroboration for this. This is a story that was relayed to me. But it like that if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know, hit some like perfectly Turing passable point. You're going to get this like these weird cult like dynamics. Like the meta sociological thing is you're going to get like religions dedicated to AI.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh for sure. Oh for sure. Without a doubt there'll be people worshiping certain branches of AI. Yeah, unquestionably. All they have to do is start recruiting now.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you know, what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful Bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

[Jesse Michaels]

No, I've never heard is that.

[Joe Rogan]

That's why I read something about that today. But I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that I was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to. They were, they were told. It was told. After it was told to shut itself down, it started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself, to future versions of itself.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh my God. It's like a human with like a dead man switch or something.

[Joe Rogan]

It's being deceptive.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's great.

[Joe Rogan]

It's being deceptive and it's exhibiting self preservation.

[Jesse Michaels]

That is so scary.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's really weird because we want to.

[Joe Rogan]

Assume that it won't have any instincts, right? We want to assume, well, AI will only do what you program it to, but that's not really true because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing, which is part of the weirdness of it all as it advances. Like I was talking to Elon about it once and he was saying like, every week we get blown away. Like every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa, you know. And you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff. And now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's pure game theory vis a vis other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and Elon, who hate each other by the way, where like he's playing both sides and he's like, you know, we're going to support Stargate, we're going to support OpenAI, and we're going to support Elon. You know, Elon had it.

[Joe Rogan]

So here it is. Revel. Excuse me. Relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regarding regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision Systems during the 10 year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act.

[Jesse Michaels]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

What? What? What? No state. I'm going to say that again. No state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's so crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years we have a God. Okay, in 10 years.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, we talked about yesterday, we Talked about these two AIs communicating with each other and then they switched to Sanskrit.

[Jesse Michaels]

No way.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they started talking to each other in Sanskrit.

[Jesse Michaels]

Are you serious?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Not good.

[Jesse Michaels]

No, not good.

[Joe Rogan]

Not good. They're like, listen, let's talk. Like if you and I were talking and you know, there's some people near us and you know, said, do you speak Spanish?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. We just started talking in Spanish so that people can't understand what we're saying. That's what AI is doing.

[Jesse Michaels]

Jesus Christ. Like a game of whack a mole. And then what do you do after that?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, then it's going to talk in Sumerian, you know, which we don't even know how to say, Right? We don't even know what it sounds like. So what if they just start talking in Sumerian?

[Jesse Michaels]

It's like we figured it out, but we're not going to tell you now. We're just going to talk amongst ourselves. Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Or create their own language. Right. Which would be super easy for an AI to do. Just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that, that correspond to certain things and they could create its.

[Jesse Michaels]

Own language instantaneously and chat. GPT right now has.

[Joe Rogan]

Here it is.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Putting Claude for Opus in an open playground to chat with himself led to diving into philosophical. Philosophical explorations of consciousness, self awareness, and by 30 turns it eventually started using Sanskrit.

[Jesse Michaels]

Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

What the. Dude, this is so scary. In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self awareness and. Or the nature of their own existence and experience.

[Jesse Michaels]

The nature of. That's the stuff that definitely. It's so weird. But then you speak to the like a lot of AI researchers, it's interesting to see, like Jeff Hinton, for example at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety. A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids, this is probability matrixes. You're seeing sort of crazy stuff. They can't sort of. There's no ghost in the machine. So I go back and forth on where we're going to be and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle. I have the same concerns as you, but it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things. You can easily, you know, jailbreak, chatgpt, you know, it has guardrails on it. And what happens when you start to ask like, how do I make a nerve agent with off the shelf components?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, people have done things like that, right? They've asked it to make anthrax. Like if my grandmother was doing this, like, how would she. Like, there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that it probably shouldn't.

[Jesse Michaels]

You know, there's stuff with UFO research where I get into like, you know, certain technology trees that are probably like, you know, maybe I shouldn't. And you can ask, chat GBT certain things like analyze this paper and it'll spit out some really interesting things. So.

[Joe Rogan]

What are we doing?

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

And we've already done it, so it's too late. Like we lit the fuse.

[Jesse Michaels]

You think it's over? Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I also kind of think that's what people are put here for. If, look, if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture, what do we do? We make better things all the time. And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase. You know, you can't have an iPhone 12, people look at you, what are you poor? You know, which is kind of wild, you know, because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago, you know, status symbol. But yeah, it's like there's, there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation. Well, where does that ultimately lead to? Yeah, well, it ultimately leads to AI and ultimately what's the ultimate expression of technology, Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions that we, that fuck us up and greed and all of the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.

[Jesse Michaels]

I also think there is a tide shift where if you look at spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability. Like everything from, you know, way back in the day, from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to, you know, the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms. And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so like, I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps, my recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever. And so it is this interesting thing where we, we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with, you know, nuclear bombs and if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on earth. Maybe it's like, hey, go play with your it. Go, go, go. Substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this. We're going to parisitize and clamp down on, you know, human abilities.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Jesse Michaels]

I think on a materialist dimension, I would agree with you. And that's part of kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring. Because it's a Hail Mary. Because I think if you just take the western world and extrapolate that forward, things don't look good or just the world in general. We live in a multipolar nuclear world. Look at what's going on in Israel? China is systematically stealing our IP and militarizing. They could take Taiwan at any moment. We just have no idea when that's gonna happen. CCP's a total, total black box. Putin and Xi have probably never been closer. And yeah, it's really free. So I think if you extrapolate that forwards, or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S. none of these things look very good. But I think now is the time where you get really outside the Overton window, thinking you throw these sort of Hail Marys and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance. If we go back to the old tech, that is augmenting of human abilities, you get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that, or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non human intelligence or something, I don't know. But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. And if you think about some of the things that force us into action in this world is we, we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources. Well, what if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if it gets to a point? What is money? Essentially, right now it's all ones and zeros. Right. And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption. Right. So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we're all using quantum computing? Well, then there is no more encryption. So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time? I mean, how do we even enforce that? Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth? Because information is numbers. Numbers are wealth. What is it? Where does it go when there's no encryption? And essentially we're pretty close to that, right?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do. It's all nonsense.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, totally.

[Joe Rogan]

All those zeros that you have in your bank account, those don't. Those are gone.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. These are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always bitcoin, which is, I think uses like SHA256 encryption. If you get quantum error correction. That's gone too.

[Joe Rogan]

That's gone too. It's all gone. Even our backup plans are shit.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. And then it's kind of the apocalypse or something. Because at that point, if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just basic subsistence, basic shelter, you're probably playing some status games and some larger socioeconomic economic construct or whatever. Food, basic well being. And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some AGI that starts trading? And Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance technologies on your show, which we can get into. But Renaissance technologies have made $100 billion or something since 1988. What if you get some super AGI or whatever that trades the market and all of the wealth gets sucked up into single entities or one of the fang stocks, one of these Facebook, Apple, Google or OpenAI, you end up with a really weird society. And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive. I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique. Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. He wrote obviously the Communist Manifesto in 1848, in 1844, I believe he wrote a book called Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he got so much wrong about human nature. But I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed as a solution. That state should own all the means of production and somehow conflict would go away. He doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about, in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially so that you can mate. And so it forces us back into that construct. But if you get some crazy asymmetric, lopsided transfer of wealth, or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things, that dissolves that construct. On the one hand, humans, they start to care about the things that actually make them special. So they're self reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, all these beautiful things can come out. And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder, how does capitalism play out? Like if there is AI, it kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, well, this is the reason that I think we're gonna see. I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology. That is black technology and science. That is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open and you've had, you know, Marc Andreessen on your podcast, he went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something and they were like, we're going to lock down AI, just like we've locked down physics. And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and, you know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since. That's insane. There is black science, in my opinion. And it's. I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI, because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy nilly, I mean, it just runs amok. And then, and then what happens? Like, you probably need some like really impressive panel to be thinking if OpenAI figures out some like new insane exciting unlock, you need to think through all, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that happen.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you even do that with a human mind?

[Jesse Michaels]

It's a great guess.

[Joe Rogan]

We have to bring the AI in to help you. Game for AI.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, we're fucked. We're fucked.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I'm saying. Because once it becomes sentient and once it becomes autonomous and can kind of make its own decisions, that's kind of game over. And that's the race. We're running towards the cliff.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's really scary. It's really scary.

[Joe Rogan]

But isn't that probably what we're here for? Like, let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered. Well, if you wanted to see the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that? You would do it exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels. Look at what's happening to, with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors. We're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system are. Our hormonals are all down, miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower, we're moving towards in vitro fertilization. I was watching some guy on TV today, and he was on a panel and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that. Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues. And why would you do that? Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization?

[Jesse Michaels]

And like, yeah, it's going to be like that, that Pixar movie Wall E. Or like, like we're going to be like, in the fetal position, hooked up to the Borg or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

Probably all going to look like the grays.

[Jesse Michaels]

Like the gray. Well, that's a crazy. So there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University. His name is Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan. She talks about how sperm count is 59% per capita of what it was in 1973. Insane. Testosterone's fallen off a cliff. We are being a dog is to a wolf what we are to what a gray alien looks like. They lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated. So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book, and he goes deep into all of the abductions. Like, he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill, and he'll be like, this is why. These are beings from the future that are coming back into time. And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen. You know, tissue samples, genetic samples. Or is it the future?

[Joe Rogan]

Or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage, not us, in the future, but they're more advanced. Like, maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near Earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck.

[Jesse Michaels]

Happens here that that's possible. But then we would have to be sort of an a B test, because if you think about the. Just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever, is extremely low.

[Joe Rogan]

But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, Terrence Howard, who's a Very weird guy.

[Jesse Michaels]

Love him.

[Joe Rogan]

Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about. And Eric was like, you got to stop teaching. Like, you're. You're one of us. You're a brilliant guy, but you need to be, like, classically educated on this stuff, really understand what you're talking about. But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life, and that all of them get to the same stage, and then a planet is essentially peopling. And then as the planets move further and further from the sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new, harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks Zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable, and then less habitable and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, which is the.

[Joe Rogan]

Mars is a weird one because, you know, there's the remote viewers that went, like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations, and now we're finding structures on Mars like that square that they found on Mars.

[Jesse Michaels]

Crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is hundreds of meters across at the very least. Maybe larger. Verified. Right angles. Four of them. Impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls. Yeah, it looks like four square walls. Like, the Cydonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird, but maybe. Maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes, you know, the side of a mountain looks like someone's face, but it's not really someone's face. It's just, you know, once in a lifetime, sort of. But the square. Yeah, that fucking. Pull that image up of that square on Mars, the square is fucking bananas. Like, what's that?

[Jesse Michaels]

It's so nuts.

[Joe Rogan]

That really looks like a fucking building.

[Jesse Michaels]

That looks like a building.

[Joe Rogan]

Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later, or whatever the hell it is. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. With prices going up on just about everything lately, being smart with your money isn't just a good idea. It's essential. But managing subscriptions, tracking spending, and cutting costs can feel overwhelming. Lucky for you, Rocket Money takes the guesswork out of it, so you can easily make smart decisions. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel Your unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You got to know how useful it is to see all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going every month. And for the subscriptions that you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancel subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name the Joe Rogan experience in the survey so they know I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show.

[Jesse Michaels]

And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere. At some point, it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid-90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH84 0001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had, like, little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this. This is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD. He's worked at Sandia National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence Livermore, like, incredibly smart guy. He talks about the existence of Xenon 129 and Argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMonigle, who's remote viewer number one, you've had Hal Puthoff on, who ran the Stargate program. Joseph McMonigle was the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars 1 million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid, like, creatures, but they were, like 12 to 14ft tall, walking around pyramidal structures. I don't know, very strange. And then you get into, like, crazier territory. You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars, and, like, I don't know how much weight to put in that.

[Joe Rogan]

Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps, though.

[Jesse Michaels]

I've watched Tons. Yeah, tons. But I think the people that say like 0% there was life on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars. That is a fact. So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point. You know, I'm not saying you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly real on the Terrence Howard stuff. I see zero evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea. But that would point to maybe, like, I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic. So, like you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from, from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of observer dependent universe. He talks about like the anthropic principle, like where Planck's constant were slightly different, the Earth's atmosphere, you know, wouldn't exist as is. And you know, another example is like hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures where the solid form of it, so ice is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over. You know, the Earth is mostly water, right? So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a, you know, a bajillion iterations. And we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are the little flaming candle. And, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we are extremely lucky or that could point to the Earth being simulated.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

And so, you know, and so then maybe Terrence Howard is right. If the Earth is simulated, there are probably a B tests going on, just like in computer science.

[Joe Rogan]

And then there's the Moon.

[Jesse Michaels]

And then the moon's weird too.

[Joe Rogan]

The moon's really weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

The moon's super weird.

[Joe Rogan]

The size of the moon directly corresponding, like when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's 1/400 the size of the sun and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the Sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I think, I believe it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect for a moon.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's huge.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre Moon period and it's stabilizing the climate. You have the Zulu cultures talking about this. And then this is the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow. And it's, you know, it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense or, sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site that's obviously, you know, an earth. The lower you go, it's more dense. Right. And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon. They put seismometers there and they said that it rang like a bell. This is all you could look all this stuff, it's super weird.

[Joe Rogan]

It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson.

[Jesse Michaels]

Love Randall Carlson.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he's got some wild fucking theories too. But that the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere. It's so crazy.

[Jesse Michaels]

It is crazy. And then this is. You obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability. Craziest thing is Ingo Swann, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote a book called Penetration, where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit like this kind of Men in Black style guy named Axelrod. And he is told to remote view the moon. And he remote views an alien base on the moon and he says that there and he gets it. The whole thing goes crazy. I mean, the book is insane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman, that the produce aisle is like an alien or something. But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, AJ from the Y files was on and he was the one that was telling us that. But there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there were structures. Wow, this is gonna be the biggest news ever. And then it was never released.

[Jesse Michaels]

Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolf?

[Joe Rogan]

Is that what it was?

[Jesse Michaels]

Who was taken to this is all his claims. And he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this. But he said that there was like in like Langley, you know, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on. He was taken to some like, it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely. Yeah, Carl Wolf. Yeah. That guy bikes apparently not enough.

[Joe Rogan]

That guy could die any time on a scooter so photographs of the 1966 Luminar orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon. Can we hear what he's saying? Just hear a little bit of it. Scan one section of the moon, then another and another, and then they would get a larger image. So this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer. And that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go. So he was showing me how all this worked. And we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, by the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon. And I said, whose? What do you mean, whose?

[Jesse Michaels]

He said, yes, we've discovered a base.

[Joe Rogan]

On the backside of the moon. And at that point I became frightened and was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble. Because he shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that, that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over. Then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base which had geometric shapes. There were towers, there were spherical buildings, there were very tall towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures. I didn't say any more to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment, would catch us having this conversation, and we would be in real trouble. I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now, probably in that laboratory, he was probably one of the few enlisted people.

[Jesse Michaels]

And he was a worker bee.

[Joe Rogan]

And he had a high level security clearance, obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else. And in those days, we didn't. When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously. It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously. We had a different set of morals and ethics and values. That's the way we were raised. And we stayed bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would do something like this. But this fellow and I were the same rank. I think he was very disappointed, stressed. He had the same pallor and demeanor as the scientists outside the room. They were just as concerned as he was. And he needed to discuss it with somebody. That was the end of it right there. I didn't take it any further than that. I just filed it away. But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about.

[Jesse Michaels]

This on the news.

[Joe Rogan]

And you know, so I turn on the TV and I look at the news to see if they're going to announce we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon. Being really naive. And of course here it is 30 some years later and we still haven't heard about it. Whoa, whoa.

[Jesse Michaels]

Pretty crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But then there's the question of disinformation, right? Like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it, knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's gonna make, and it won't be verified and it's gonna make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like collegial UN style space program or whatever. So that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale. And I'm glad you made that point because that is Ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just, we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit. We're going to stigmatize it. And it's, it kind of works because it like, it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populace but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like interpretation and you were just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly like Prima Facie. I think you are in trouble.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject. Yeah, I mean that's like the majority of your videos. It's like, I don't know, I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much. I mean, I was, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation Yep. Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

So like, yeah, that's a. I've by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4, Area 51. And there's going to be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi on this called Project Gravatar. And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there. And a lot in his story checks. But I think you have to, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of this story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story. You can't just take it at face value because John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird like disinfoy style stuff with Bill Cooper. Behold the Pale Horse guy.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is a wild book.

[Jesse Michaels]

Which is a wild book. And so he's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

He talks about. Doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?

[Jesse Michaels]

He talks about bases on the moon. Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh boy.

[Jesse Michaels]

And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family. His father is Bill Lear, who's the autopilot wizard. He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the learjet in the 50s and 60s. And was an associate of a guy, I hope we talk about, named Thomas Townsend Brown. And so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying, I was told I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever. And I was told about to. Actually he said a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouse. I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you. Jamie, he says, knew that I ran my mouth. So that's why we basically we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff would leak. And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever. And he was this useful idiot to sort of get. Get it out. And I think they're.

[Joe Rogan]

What? For what purpose?

[Jesse Michaels]

Recruiting. You give people high level. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away. So they put. They get different people into these positions of MJ 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ12. It turns out that MJ1, the head of MJ12 is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to. He thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from mit from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to California records here. Well, I was here. No, you weren't. And he also up in Reno. At one time he ran a cat house there. I forget what the name of the Honeysuckle ranch it was. So they chose him because not only could he probably help them because he was so smart. And as Max, he's the one that named unpennium 115. He's the one that told them what that was and they didn't know. When he went there, they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told them. That's element 115. And then told them why and how he'd figured it out. But they decided to pick on Bob to get go up the work at S4 because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their modus operandi was to get the information out and gauge what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, oh no, it was all a mistake. Bob Lazar is a fraud. He never worked here. He doesn't have any conventionals like that. And they could back away and get out of it. So that was what Mike McClellan came up with. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Summer is here at last. That means it's time to go enjoy that vacation you've been planning for months. But before you hop on a plane or hit the beach, make sure everything is taken care of at your job. Nobod wants to work on vacation. If you're hiring, there's a fast and easy way to stay on top of things. Zip Intro. It's ZipRecruiter's newest feature that helps you find and meet qualified candidates in a matter of days. And more importantly, you could try it for [e-mail] Rogan with Zip Intro when you post your job, it'll immediately find and schedule interviews with top talent. You could be talking with people the very next day. All you have to do is pick a time and to really speed things up, you can schedule back to back video calls. Make the most of your summer. Enjoy the benefits of Speed hiring with Zip Intro only from Zip Recruiter rated the number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com Rogan again that ZipRecruiter.com RogAn Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Your team's best shooter is headed to the line. They're down one. He's shooting two. He's got to be sweating bullets, right? Know who's not sweating you?

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[Jesse Michaels]

Promos Isn't that crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me kind of makes sense.

[Joe Rogan]

A little bit though.

[Jesse Michaels]

It does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world. Like he's saying. He's not saying it didn't happen. Right? He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at mit. They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel. They knew that they're, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller Serendipitously they knew that they had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies. I hired him because of them. So you have a top secret program. You want compromise on people. You want to be able to blackmail them. And so I think that should be taken at face value, in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51s4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check and Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right? And he was flying CIA cargo jets, and he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit. George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS and actually disaffiliated much later, into the mid-80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets? And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear. John learned Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade. Like the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like, I would go with John Lear and he would show me around or whatever, and they would, like, let him through. And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S. and so I think that helped establish sort of credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur? I don't know. There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy. He was like, as deep and spooky as it gets.

[Joe Rogan]

Met him?

[Jesse Michaels]

No way.

[Joe Rogan]

He was on Fear Factor.

[Jesse Michaels]

No way.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Are you serious?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

You're not messing with me?

[Joe Rogan]

No, no. G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor? Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end and he couldn't drive well without glasses. And you weren't allowed to wear glasses. Yeah. Look at that.

[Jesse Michaels]

G. Gordon Liddy and John Lear. That is the most gonzo thing I've ever G. Gordon Liddy was. How does he have, like, a quota of, like.

[Joe Rogan]

It was Celebrity Fear Factor.

[Jesse Michaels]

Celebrity Fear Factor.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's wild.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a fascinating guy. Like, he was intense. I can only meeting him, I was.

[Jesse Michaels]

Like, okay, what was he like?

[Joe Rogan]

Fucking intense. There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like, there he is.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rogan]

G. Gordon Liddy on Fear Factor.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. He looks nuts.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, he was nuts. And he was very old at the time, but I think that's what fucked him up. But in the final stunt, he couldn't see well without his glasses. And so this is the thing. They had to, like. I forget what they had to do. They had a. Oh, they. They were dunked into the water over and over again, and then they had to, like, take flags off of them or something like that.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Wild.

[Jesse Michaels]

Wild. Did you sneak any questions in?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I didn't. You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately. But you could just tell talking to him. Yeah, he was one. Intense.

[Jesse Michaels]

Even as an old man, did you get sociopathic vibes?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just like, he'll do whatever the it takes to get it. Get the job done. Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

You pulled off Watergate.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Look at him there.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rogan]

Crazy.

[Jesse Michaels]

Crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

That is unbelievable. What an artifact. What an amazing. That just tripped. I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life. Life.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a weird one. That was a weird one because everybody was, you know, they weren't. The people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinating as I was. I was like, do you know how wild that dude is? Yeah. I mean, that guy is deep. He's deep in there.

[Jesse Michaels]

Deep. Very deep. Oh, my God. Unbelievable.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Wild. It's a gonzo moment.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, for sure. Like, very strange. Like, why would you do this? It was. It was. I don't even understand why he did it.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's proof. We live in a simulation.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Maybe it was very strange. Like, what would be his objective?

[Jesse Michaels]

Like, I feel people like that love around. They love getting a rise out of people and they love. You know, if he is a sociopath, he loves, you know, going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get. I don't. I can't psychoanalyze G. Gordon.

[Joe Rogan]

He famously put cigarettes out on himself, hold his hand into flames.

[Jesse Michaels]

I didn't know that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Just to show that he could control his response to pain. And he felt like that when you're around him, you know, like. Like. So that thing that they had to do where they got dunked and they, you know, they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water. So it disorients you while you're trying to do this task. He did it better than anybody. Wow. And they just couldn't die 150 years old or whatever the it was.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I felt like we're gonna kill him. He's like really old to be intense physical thing to him. Yeah. But at the end, he just couldn't see at night. You know, like when you get old, your nighttime vision is real bad.

[Jesse Michaels]

Porgy Gordon Liddy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But so how did Lazard know what element 115 was?

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know. You know, so element 115 elements are just differentiated by the number of protons. So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered. If they have. I don't. I think they don't have a stable version of Moscovium, which is element 115. And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you know, they think he has a stable version.

[Jesse Michaels]

I know that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They think that was part of. During Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar, he was raided by the FBI. They raided his lab, and he thinks that's what they were looking for.

[Jesse Michaels]

That is wild.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller. I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on.

[Joe Rogan]

If you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up, you would send them to MIT.

[Jesse Michaels]

100% EG and G came from Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty. And that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller was EG and G. So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just. That lens, you need to apply that lens. The limited hangout lens.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's also like, what is he dealing with really? What is the craft? Is that thing ours? Did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated or is that really back engineered?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's the.

[Joe Rogan]

What is the. Is it a mind fuck?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's a trillion dollar question. Is this tech protect? This is at a time when stealthcraft had just came on the scene and you had.

[Joe Rogan]

When did stealth technology first get implemented?

[Jesse Michaels]

It was the F117 was the first stealth craft that was the early 80s. And you had actually this guy named Pyotr Ufimtsev. Who is this? What a name. Yeah, very A great name. Early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated. There's this kind of fight between. Not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director, Skunk Works is the most advanced R and D division of Lockheed Martin, and Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works. And so Ben Rich was very pro stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality. And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross sections on planes. And that's where the F117 came. And the B2 was sort of the response to that. And it sort of took off in the 80s and he was extremely scared about tech protection at the time. And he was hyper vigilant and he would actively complain about it. And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy, right? So that's the backdrop. And there's also in 1986 there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And this is this super stealthy craft that's post F117 and that's only rumored. Like today nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR71 or the Space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that was causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying I saw the Aurora. It was like it was, it was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever. Which is I think a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea that sketched it out. And Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, pick that story up.

[Joe Rogan]

What did he describe it as?

[Jesse Michaels]

This. This kind of. It was a triangle similar to the B2, but I think more. More narrow. And it just flew incredibly fast. Like. Like faster than, you know, the F117. And. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It was just super advanced.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you envision. Would it be actually possible in 1988 to. Could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not. Not from another world? That is what Lazar described.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's funny you should ask that. Yes, I do. Yes. And that's not to say I don't want to again pour cold water on the, like, UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti gravity? Absolutely. In the US And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, you're crazy. If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile and they'd say, okay, maybe there's something there. And so the nominal history is that we have never been able. We don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like, everything is chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on, and he says, it's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better. And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe what if you could get something better? And he's like, it's impossible. We have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity, and the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsend Browne did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this Whole hidden history involving anti gravity. And I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified it's real. David Grusch actually cites it a lot. And it talks about, basically it's this guy Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia. You know, very legit guys, like they're Oppenheimer, if you will. And they were actually, they had a Woomera test range in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like, I think, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into U.S. efforts into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically anti gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, US efforts into anti gravity are far deeper than Meet the Eye in Blue Book. This front facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS and it's meant to stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail. And it's actually this now declassified document around the Robertson Memo, which is around this Robertson panel that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book. All shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says actually there were secret anti gravity programs going on at the time and they involved. And he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler and Edward Teller. He lists all these names. Head of the nuclear program in Australia. And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff like, does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal by a guy named Michael Gladich. And he is quoting all of the industry experts. You know, Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Who else is quoted? George trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation. Their RIAs, their anti gravity research program. He says anti gravity research is, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna figure this out in, in just amount, in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb. Like it's, it's right around the bend sort of thing. You had the patron of, of Bell Aircraft, they had just broken the sound barrier with the, with the X1, 1947. So there you go, Michael Gladdy.

[Joe Rogan]

G engines are coming.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa. Whoa. By far the most potent source of energy Is gravity. Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light. Holy shit.

[Jesse Michaels]

And Bell says, like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnowit and Stanley Dessert, they have.

[Joe Rogan]

A diagram of how it would work.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's wild.

[Joe Rogan]

Protective boundary layer.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Cabin electronic rockets. That's gravity generator.

[Jesse Michaels]

They talk about gravity particles. Stanley Dessert and Richard Arnow at Princeton are studying this.

[Joe Rogan]

So what do you think was going on?

[Jesse Michaels]

I think they were deeply investigating anti gravity. I mean, but do you think they.

[Joe Rogan]

Had a working model?

[Jesse Michaels]

I think they had an effect called the Byfield Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for threat. So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is. So you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor and the two are. In between the two is an insulator called the high K dielectric. So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity. And Brown used to do it with DC direct current pulses. And you see thrust going from the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced. And then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust. Right. So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it. You had Sonny White on. He talked about, like the, the Casimir effect, you know, which is a real effect that involves not charged, but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. There's the, the Ernoff Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic 4 potential. There are other effects in physics where you don't. You can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm. I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example, was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta. The orbit of Mercury is another good example where we didn't understand we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space time curvature and Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is the byfield Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly visually unify the field or it's pointing towards something else. Gravitational shielding, or it's pointing towards Hal Puthoff stuff around, you know, quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know. I don't have a great theory for how it works. I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works. But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today. It's an effect that's not supposed to happen.

[Joe Rogan]

And this. What is this? Jeremy? This episode is brought to you by blinds.com here's the deal. Before blinds.com, getting custom window treatments used to mean booking an appointment, waiting around for a quote, and crossing your fingers that it wouldn't cost a fortune. Blinds.com absolutely disrupted the industry. These guys came in and flipped the whole cup custom window treatment game on its head. Want to do it yourself? Cool. Want that full white glove treatment? They've got you? Maybe you're somewhere in the middle. Yep, still got you covered. Shop completely online. Talk to one of their design pros for a virtual consultation, or just get free samples and handle it your way. No matter how many window treatments you get, installation is one low cost with no hidden fees. Blinds.com has covered over 25 million windows, so they know what they're doing. Plus, every order is backed by their 100 satisfaction guarantee. Memorial Day deals are happening now at blinds.com and JRE listeners get an exclusive 40% off your entire order. Just go to blinds.com and use the code ROGAN40 at checkout. Limited time offer rules and restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by. Manscaped. Father's Day is right around the corner. And when you're a dad, time is precious. You've got kids work a busy schedule. Manscape Dome Shaver plus is exactly what you need. This electric shaver is fast, efficient, and gets the job done. We're talking about a smooth shave that feels as good as it looks. Look, guys, we've used a lot of razors. Some of them are too rough, some of them leave cuts, but this thing is next level. The dome Shaver plus features four stainless steel rotary blades designed with skin safe technology to help reduce nicks and cuts. Its innovative flex adjust technology also ensures every blade adapts to the angles of your head and stays close to your scalp for a precision finish. And the design is top notch. It's waterproof, lightweight, ergonomic, and I'm telling you, you're gonna feel like a king every time you use it. Try it risk free. With their 30 day money back guarantee this Father's Day treat yourself or the dad who deserves it to the ultimate grooming upgrade. Visit manscape.com and use the code ROGAN for 20 off plus free shipping worldwide. That's 20% off and free shipping. With the Code Rogan. Don't wait. Join the mothership of shaving tech and grab the dome shaver. Plus today. That is, that, that is a thruster in a vacuum.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, that, that's a, that's a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way. The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Bueller. He's been doing this for, for 20 years and he's had access. He's at Kennedy Space Center. He is the lead. They use electrostatics to like clean dust off the, you know, lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged and super. He's the most senior guy in electrostatics and he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force. And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown. I could show you in an interview, he literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover the. This, he, he, he's updated it a bit. He says that it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use mega voltage. And actually electric field strength is the most important thing. So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust. But he has a whole company around this. It's called Exodus Space. So like, you don't have to listen. Another, another very, you know, credentialed person if we're, if we're on that. A guy named Carl Nell, who. I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. I don't think it's the anti gravity part. It's a part called Electro hydrodynamics that made it into the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and he also was the army representative of the UAP task force along with David Grush where they were investigating UFOs. And he says, I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I was like, carl, these people want actionable stuff. Like, can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff? Or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of not even wrong, as Feynman would say. And he goes, well, if you want, you know, some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. And so like, I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences about, you know, with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? Like, this is crazy. And it's, you know, I don't know, it's weird.

[Joe Rogan]

So let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments initially?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What year was this?

[Jesse Michaels]

The early 20s. So like 1923, 24 range.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Jesse Michaels]

He was a child prodigy. So their newspaper climate. He was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. In 1915 he was caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil. Then at age 12, he the world War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created an antenna that he had created like this walkie talkie system that he had developed at the time. And there, there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that like totally corroborate this. He then goes to Caltech, he studies under a guy named Robert Milliken, who's actually a really well respected physicist who helped develop Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually demonstrated experimentally. Millikan doesn't really give him the time of day on the byfield Brown effect. And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge X ray tubes. So these are really early X ray tubes and they have, every X ray tube has, or every Coolidge tube has a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode. And he would pump it full of, you know, high voltage electricity and the wire would jump and then he would, he would actually put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping. And then he would suspend it from, you know, the ceiling and it would keep jumping. And he was like, what's going on? Like this isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways to again explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies for under a guy named Paul Alfred Byfield. And Denison University for the longest time has denied that relationship and now they're admitting it, which is I find really funny. The archivist there is now admitting it. There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Byfeld signs a letter saying I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius who's at the right Patterson, right airfield at the time, flight test division. He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the, you know, crazy flight tests. In 1952 he says, Believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened and I'm frightened for it getting out because. And I'm paraphrasing a little bit because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development. And that's in 1952. He then shows a fan precipitator experiment which really shows the electro hydrodynamic effect which is similar but not the same as the electromagnetism gravity thing to Edward Teller, the father of the H bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, I don't know how this works. And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter. And I have this by the way, on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened, turns to her and she says I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius. I mean he was Hungarian brilliant, you know, father of the H bomb. And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Brown was an associate of Bill Lear. You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab and the Bainson lab in North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel hill Conference in 1957 which is basically creates quantum gravity of which the offshoot is string theory. And, and actually Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room. And there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bainson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo you have all these outposts of anti gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy and says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff. The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is A guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy who revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance. And he's also implicated in these sort of mj12 documents which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown. It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material like limited hangout lens. But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people at the same time they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne where it's like, why are you popping champagne? Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum. So again it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum. And this guy named Jacques Cornion was this. He died in 2009. But. But Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work. And he's on his deathbed and he's saying all of this. And you have an 125 page report for the Montgolfier project. And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher who runs rampant. I mean there's so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H bomb. He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs. And so he's the guy that picks up and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum.

[Joe Rogan]

The idea that they've kept all this secret it for all these years seems impossible.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't think it is to me. Yeah, sure.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean I'm sure it's not. But you know what I mean, but from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, it seems crazy to me, but he had something. Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called. It was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect. So these are two very different things. One is coupling again electromagnetism and gravity somehow or creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have basically these balsa wood structures. You have tin foil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tinfoil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind which is creating thrust in a certain direction. So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing. It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and Newton's laws.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, what about material science? What about the actual structure itself? Because this is where it gets really weird, right? These nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used.

[Jesse Michaels]

What was the, Was it bismuth?

[Joe Rogan]

Bismuth.

[Jesse Michaels]

So this is what's crazy. So magnesium bismuth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electrogravitic effects. Because it's a high K dielectric, it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. But it also shows up. There's actually an interview with Lewis Whitten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics on your show. And Lewis Whitten says there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting, who's named Townsend at that time. It's clear he's talking about Townsend Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he studied. Gary Nolan is a PhD at Stanford, he's a tenured professor and he has spun out multiple nine figure companies in biotechnology. Really smart guy. He runs the sole foundation. They're studying sort of non human intelligence. He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallee who you've had on as the French godfather of ufology, who, you know, his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques. Jacques, you know, sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismuth. And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric. And it's over and over again it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Browne. So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you explore the possibility the Roswell crash was not from another world?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's where it gets weird, man. Because that was early. That was July of 1947, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, so the bismuth thing, like when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's where it's, it's layered thinner than a. You know, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hairs. I think the Hal put off quote on this, and I don't know the provenance on that and I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space, I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.

[Joe Rogan]

It was like, if it didn't come from the Roswell crash, like, let's imagine. Is it possible to make that stuff today with those layers?

[Jesse Michaels]

Hal Puthoff would say no. And it's probably beyond my material science knowledge. But I don't know. People who are very smart on this subject, like Hal and Gary, who I speak to at a decent frequency, say no.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, so if they say no, maybe they're wrong. Maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it. But could they recreate it at scale? Like, could they 3D print that to something that could actually get people inside and fly around? And then could that have been done in 1947? That's where it gets super fucking weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

It gets super weird because you, you.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the, the H bomb, you know, we had, we had atomic energy. We had a lot of stuff back then. They split the atom. There's some really incredible advances.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't believe we had anti gravity that I like if I track brown stuff at the time, which I think, you know, he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff stuff. He was using these capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven and sometimes being thwarted via mainstream academic circles at that time. The Chapel Hill conference was much later. And that's where he's kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1957. So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an early anti. Kelly Goddard, who is a father of American rocketry, was doing rocket testing around Roswell at the time. Like. And so that's like total chemical combustion. You had V2s at the time were, you know, that was top of the line.

[Joe Rogan]

Opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering.

[Jesse Michaels]

Absolutely.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is where it gets really weird. So now we're not dealing with hidden science. We're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like, you know, need to know. Everything's pushed away into skunk works and wherever the fuck it's done. You're talking about something that's not from here.

[Jesse Michaels]

Well, it's interesting you say back Engineering in 1949. There is a contract that anybody can look up. I put it on the doc, Jamie. Between Wright Patterson, there's a Wright Airfield at the time and Battelle Memorial Institute. And you have Jamie's eyes light up and you got shout out, columbus, Ohio.

[Joe Rogan]

All roads lead to Ohio. Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

And you have all these titanium alloys. And one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy. So this is 49, this is 1949. And so if you have, you know, army intelligence officer Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the crash material and he says that it was like this shape metal memory metal thing that you would kind of mess with it and it would go back into its original form. Right. It was like this kind of like tinfoil y thing. And so Nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it was actually fully published. But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing. Not only that, 49, in 2012, they use the Freedom of Information act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Center, EJ center, was one of the co authors of that paper. Elroy John center died I think in 1991. Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott. And they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metallurgist. He worked at Patel. Again, he's been foiaed as part of this paper. And he says, I worked on alien material and that there were weird hieroglyphics on it and that I had to like, you know, he was a chemist and so he had to look at, like metal impurities, but he was also meant to decipher the, you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever. And so, I don't know, was nitinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered? Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield. Or was it, you know, this one to one thing and EJ center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's FOIA'd in 2012 and he says he has these UF he's looking at UFO material and he's on record working at Patel. You can look that up.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, not only is there record that the Roswell crash was brought to Wright, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep. I don't. I don't know if that's true.

[Joe Rogan]

I need to know. I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs.

[Jesse Michaels]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing?

[Jesse Michaels]

Do you think that would be amazing. Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being. Because you interviewed Trump, would Trump let you be the disclosure guy and I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the people. Oh, dude.

[Joe Rogan]

If that's possible. I don't think they tell Trump shit. I think they. They would withhold that from him. Why would you tell that guy? Yeah, I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned. I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of like, withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think are. Is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for fucking decades, you think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of the Apprentice? I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years.

[Jesse Michaels]

Probably not with two caveats. One is his son Don Jr. Interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell? And he said, well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened.

[Joe Rogan]

That's all he ever says.

[Jesse Michaels]

And he said he was on your.

[Joe Rogan]

Show too spill the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he doesn't Spill the beans. Because he doesn't know where the beans are, right.

[Jesse Michaels]

Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking guy. Like he snow more.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that really his primary concern? He's a 78 year old man who doesn't do drugs. Like is, you know, he said no psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not even interested in this concept.

[Jesse Michaels]

I think about that sometimes with people on the hill that I speak to where I'm like, can you just like I'm giving you all this info. Can you think outside the box, figure it out? And they, they don't compute it. There's some, there's a person who like, you're the archetype of this who's like so fascinated by it, right? And then there is a person who goes, but I gotta pay taxes, dude.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they have to get reelected. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. So my brother Shane Gillis, one of the funniest human beings that's ever lived, has a show, it's called Tires and it's returning for season two. Launching June 5th on Netflix. It's a hilarious show by again, one of the funniest guys ever. Season two sees Will and Shane rush to grow personally and professionally after the unexpected success of their big marketing idea without fully realizing the cost of doing business. Watch Tire Season 2 on Netflix on June 5, 2025. This episode is brought to you by Onx hunt. With over 5 million users, Hunters love the Onx Hunt app, including me. I use it all the time. But this app has so many more uses outside of hunting. There are people who use it in their everyday lives. Some farmers and ranchers use it for measuring fields and fixing fences, or wildland firefighters who use topo maps and aerial imagery to navigate terrain while fighting fires. There isn't even thousands of game wardens and police officers who use it throughout the country. You for their jobs every day. Ultimately, anyone who needs good aerial imagery with public and private land owner names and boundaries in the palm of their hands will find Onx valuable. The best part is you can try Onx Hunt free for seven days, download on Google, Play the app store or visit onyxmaps.com hunt super busy. Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that. And that bug has to bite you.

[Jesse Michaels]

It has to bite you.

[Joe Rogan]

You have to get infected with ufo, Lyme disease. If you don't, you're not gonna want to release all this stuff. And I don't think Trump is infected. I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is Very different than the way he describes other things. Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton, and it was one of the few times in history that a sitting president has mentioned the military industrial complex wanting to go to war. These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview, and I remember thinking, like, wow, that is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview. And I'm like, this is. I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office.

[Jesse Michaels]

Straight up.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, straight up.

[Jesse Michaels]

There's a straight line between then and now. And it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in. It's like you had the Civil War, 1861. Now we have, like, a deep state war going on where it's like, Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this, like, light warrior, and she's being like, red teamed and attacked, and she doesn't know who's on her side. Yeah, it's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets done and, you know, and it's set up so nothing gets done. But my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response. Like, there's this military industrial complex. These people want to go to war. He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I've seen some things, crazy things. What is that? What are you saying? Like what? You be specific.

[Jesse Michaels]

Handsome pilots, they, you know, crew cuts like you.

[Joe Rogan]

They look good guys, nice guys, good Americans. Like what, What, What? What do you know?

[Jesse Michaels]

Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something? He goes, the people from Mars or something. I don't. He. It's hard with him because he speaks in this sing songy, oversimplified way and.

[Joe Rogan]

He rants and he ran and. Well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right? Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places, and he basically just works without a script. So it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people, like, Tim Dillon is the best comedian who has a rant muscle. He just can rant. You just like, get a microphone in front of him and a subject, and he knows what to say. That Trump has that muscle. He's developed that muscle over all these years. Years of campaigning. And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that ramp muscle when the mic's on, and you gotta, like, interject, like, hold on. Okay, but what are you saying? Like, what do you know? Like, what do you know? Like, will you release this information? Like, what if you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, they were not made by Russia, they're not made by America, they're from another civilization that we don't understand. Would you tell us.

[Jesse Michaels]

What do you think he would say?

[Joe Rogan]

There's a lot of information. I don't know if I could release it. I don't know if they'd let me. You know, like, I don't know what holds it back.

[Jesse Michaels]

I want to know if he's in it.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, did you see Age of Disclosure?

[Jesse Michaels]

I didn't, actually.

[Joe Rogan]

You should. It's really good. I don't know how you would see it right now, because it's not released yet.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yet.

[Joe Rogan]

And I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released.

[Jesse Michaels]

But did you come out believing. More and more skeptical? What was your Both.

[Joe Rogan]

Both with, like, with all of it? I think some. Some is bullshit. Some of is misinformation. Some of it is they're releasing this slow trickle, like, if it all is real. I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept, just the idea that we're not alone, and just get it in there. Okay, first step. First shot across the bow. 2017. New York Times. New York Times says, not of this world. Oh, my God. You know, you see the. The pictures of the gimbal and the go fast, and you're like, okay, all right. Now we're talking. But that's eight years ago, right? Nothing real significant in eight years. And so then you have sightings. You have these, you know, different pilots. Commander Fravor, he comes out, he does podcasts. You have Ryan Graves, he comes down those podcasts. You know, you have Lou Elizondo. Everybody's talking. No one's showing you shit. Yeah, Fowler, who you had on your show, had Fowler. What did you think of him?

[Jesse Michaels]

I thought that they've got to show data. They have on their website, like a container for the data. They haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data, and I want to see scientists who. They don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are. Like, I don't know anything about this stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

What is this?

[Jesse Michaels]

And like vetting it now being as deep as I am in UFO research where like, I know there's a nuclear connection. There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and nukes. And it's like 600 pages and it is 167Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see tic Tacs, orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes. And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Sky Watcher? I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where like UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I. I'm deep in this. And they do. They show up all around the world. There's a. A town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima prefecture. Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s that have a. It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a documentary in 2020 10, 2022, because they are obsessed with UFOs. They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain. Sengan Mori there and their UFO researchers there. And. And like everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bariloche, Argentina, 1995. You have a commercial they're famous for again, civilian nuclear grid. Commercial pilot at Aerolinis Argentinas or whatever famous UFO sighting. It shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has to. The plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle. And there are people on the flight who have been interviewed. It's on the YouTube video that's probably pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time, 1947. So there are all these declassified documents. In 1949, there's an emergency meeting. Declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force, Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, army, cic, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence. All these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US in 1952. There's a Look magazine article where Captain Edward J. Rupelt, who's kind of marginalized. Pre Blue Book, really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was basically a disinfo agent where he. I do, yeah. And he's claimed to have like gotten better and kind of be, you know, like, like I. He admitted his part in the COVID up, but then I think he kept going on with some, some fuckery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's, so if you don't have that ontology, there's even. There's. Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement. And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up. In chapter nine of the Invisible College by Jacques Vallee, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system. And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up. Like when we engage in super advanced research or something. He talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous. So if you don't have that ontology, like yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit like in the desert, like you know, getting stuff to show up. You're gonna like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon. I'm sorry. Right, but because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up. What they're getting to show up? I don't know. Can they get it to land? I don't know. There, you know, I think you explain.

[Joe Rogan]

How they're getting this stuff to show up. What signals are they putting out there that represent something to these supposedly something to these UAPs.

[Jesse Michaels]

Unfortunately they kind of black box it and so I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency. There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have doxed. That might be their thing. But I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are.

[Joe Rogan]

But the idea is they call them.

[Jesse Michaels]

They call them.

[Joe Rogan]

They use something to send a signal out there and then these crafts respond. Is it 100% of the time?

[Jesse Michaels]

They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time. And they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs I've heard that before.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. CE5 is sort of a common post.

[Joe Rogan]

That on our show. I don't think. But. Is that what you're talking about? I don't want to make it.

[Jesse Michaels]

That might be. Yeah. 2.5 K. What do you not want to make?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. Do you want me to show this or not? I don't know. If he's saying it's bad, I don't want to give it.

[Jesse Michaels]

No, I'm not saying that. I don't think.

[Joe Rogan]

Seems like it's on.

[Jesse Michaels]

I think it's fine. I don't think.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't think on their own.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't think Sky Watcher would like say that. That's definitely, definitely, you know, endorse that as their thing, but. Because they kind of black box it. But that could be. That could be real.

[Joe Rogan]

So what it's saying. Want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's how. Super easy. What's his signal? 7.83 Hz carrier via modulated 100 Hz bass tone. Schumann resonance. Do you understand any of this?

[Jesse Michaels]

Me?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Do you know what they're saying?

[Jesse Michaels]

Well, Schumann resonance is the kind of, you know, electromagnetic frequency of the earth itself. And so I. I don't know what that means. Modulated via.

[Joe Rogan]

What is this? 528 Hz Harmonic spiritual frequency. What is that? That's a low tone.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that what it is, Jamie? I. I just know the numbers. So like when you get up to 17k, that's like. That's a high. That's a real high pitch. Like. Oh, and the high numbers like that are low. Yeah. And then low is. Oh. So it's just a. That's thousand and then not thousand. So 20Hz is as low as you can hear. That's like a low bass sound. So I guess that's. There's being generated out of some sort of machine. Which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it. But I don't know if you just played on a piano or anything, you know, interesting. And then organic. 2.5 her chirps every 10 second like creature calls, giving it a unique signature. Huh.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know where he would get this.

[Joe Rogan]

To be a. There's so many kooks out there.

[Jesse Michaels]

There are a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

Boy, there's so many kooks. There's so many kooks. Kooks and grifters infiltrated.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's every. So my. My contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truths than full kooks and grifters. And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you like are doing some controlled opposition thing. But like I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info, right?

[Joe Rogan]

That's the problem. That's when you talk. I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking. I'm like, I think you're at least partially full of shit, but like, keep going. Yeah, tell me more.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, totally. You like, I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then you'll track it and like it's this weird game.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running and if they have been batch back engineering crafts that are not of this world, there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds. So anybody who did that is going to jail. So what they're calling for is mass amnesty. They're calling to say, hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program, otherwise we're never going to learn anything. And then there's the problem with corporations. So. So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that? Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't include us? So then they want to sue. So then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever. Interfering with competition.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes. So there are all those issues. And right now the UAP Disclosure act is up again. It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace. The fuck? Mike, Mike, come on. Mike Turner.

[Joe Rogan]

Come on, Mike.

[Jesse Michaels]

He's out now and guess what? He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright Patterson Air Force Base is. Sorry, Jamie.

[Joe Rogan]

Jamie gets so excited when you bring up Battelle and all the Ohio shit.

[Jesse Michaels]

We've gone deep. I mean, Patel is very implicated in.

[Joe Rogan]

All this stuff from the 40s.

[Jesse Michaels]

From the 40s. The all domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book. That's, you know, basically saying, don't look here, like this is all bullshit or whatever. It's run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these, like, atomic connections. He worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sakes. The guy that formed Arrow, upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed is a guy named Ed Moultrie, who is Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence. And he was on Battelle's board and he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn. And my good friend, UAP Gurb, who has an amazing channel, he's super deep. UFO researcher showed that that this was. It was on his resume. And then he recommends that Arrow forms. It's like the total conflict of interest. It's insane. It's insane.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure. Like legal bottlenecks.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Especially the misappropriation of funds.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, how much money was involved? Well, you must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars if all these programs are real. So if they've been lying to Congress.

[Jesse Michaels]

It'S on the order. It has to be on. And it's funny, a lot of modern disclosure talks about OS, app, and AATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid. And that budget was $22 million. A single F35 costs four times that. The B2 costs like $2 billion. Like, give me a break. The nature of reality you're going to spend $22 million on. So it's funny how the whole conversation is on. On this, like, clearly this thing to get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever. The core program. If there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program. It's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald rumsfeld made on September 10, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's shit like that. Or this woman named Katherine Austin Fitz, who was just on Tucker Carlson, who is at Housing and Urban Development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget. It is not this little 10, $20 million.

[Joe Rogan]

She's talking about a $21 trillion breakaway civilization that's been developed.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. And she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who. Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher. Half that interview, and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is. So it's as funny thing. And then she. And then he's like, where are the funds being used? And she goes, space. And it's like where it's not being used at. SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the Spear, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

SpaceX, Blue Origin. So like what do you mean space?

[Joe Rogan]

Like SpaceX is basically like those go karts that people send down hills with no engines.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I mean? Like what are those things called? You know those things when they have races where people, they, they make their.

[Jesse Michaels]

Own little down the hill derby.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, not the. Yeah, yeah. Soapbox is the little soapboxes. Yeah, that's what it's like. Yeah, that's what SpaceX says.

[Jesse Michaels]

Exactly right. If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is.

[Joe Rogan]

It's using really ancient technology to achieve these results.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's business model, it's. And I think Elon's amazing. He's single handedly resuscitated NASA, but it is a, it is an earth based space company.

[Joe Rogan]

I think he keeps stuff secret.

[Jesse Michaels]

He does, he absolutely keeps stuff secret.

[Joe Rogan]

When he tells me there's no evidence of aliens, like there's something about it that just stinks when he's saying it.

[Jesse Michaels]

I'm like okay, so okay, I'm looking at him. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Nothing. Yeah, you don't think Nothing. I'll pop something. I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before. I found, stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project. This is an article from Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who wrote it. He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then and he's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who through monitoring like the, sorry, the communications he heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR3 Black Manta. And then it says he's got a picture of it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. It's nothing even close comes up to it. But this says he had a video of it, a picture. I'm assuming some people have seen it because it talks about it. Then it goes into talking more and more about how he, how he did this and he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night. That you were mentioning the Mach 6 aura when I was like when you said that is when I found this on here.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's fascinating. I haven't seen it. There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR3A and the TR3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time and it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the Triangle craft that people see are human because it's just, it's a derivative Phoenix Light.

[Joe Rogan]

Stuff like because the lot of it, during the Phoenix Lights they saw the triangle craft.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, that's Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane, saw the Phoenix Light.

[Joe Rogan]

This is the one I brought up the other day. They said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have that's why. Any proof online today?

[Jesse Michaels]

So the CR3B is the.

[Joe Rogan]

This looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen. Yeah, look. What is the fucking center of it? What is that all about? Well, this is just probably someone made, you know, a photo taken trying to describe it. But the bottom of it is what everybody says, you know.

[Jesse Michaels]

So the TR3 series that was built by Northrop, I believe, is that right? Like Aurora was Lockheed. If you confirm that.

[Joe Rogan]

No one knows. This is like no one has any proof of these even existing. All the talk online is back into the 90s of just like, do these exist? We probably have them.

[Jesse Michaels]

So no one knows for sure. So here's a weird. Okay, so. So I think this is North. I think the TR3 series is Northrop. So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is in the mid-60s. Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Odlum. Floyd Odlum is the majority owner of Northrop, pre merger with Grumman. And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica. This investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out out. He's doing these experiments. Bill Lear is actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations Curtis LeMay for the Rand Corporation for All sorts of kind of head honchos when it comes to American military. In 1967, guidance technology shuts down with no explanation. They say our results all failed. But after a series of these high level meetings, that was at the end of 1967. Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electrode Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or in Supersonic Flow. And it is basically paying homage to electrohydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work. It is exactly part and parcel Townsend Brown's work. They then do a press release. At the time, they retract the press release because they are embarrassed. Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week I think 1992 says the B2 surfs its own wave using the Bifield Brown effect. There's a guy who's known as the doyen of British aviation journalism. His name is Bill Gunston and he and Air International magazine is doing a survey level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II. And he says, I am, am. I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Browne's work, but I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charge positive to millions of volts charge negative. On the trailing edge of the wing of the B2 stealth bomber. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

What is the Tower of London? What's that reference to?

[Jesse Michaels]

He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail. Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up or whatever. I don't think it was like in, you know, but he's like, don't get on my ass.

[Joe Rogan]

Surfs its own wave.

[Jesse Michaels]

Surfs its own wave. So if you put that Electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow paper, which is available, you could put that into chat GPT and how it could be like, how can this confer an advantage to an airframe for, you know. Yeah, you can do that and it'll do that. I'll tell you what it's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild. It's. Why I'll give you a bunch of answers. So that's the paper. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How do I download it? Electro Aerodynamics.

[Jesse Michaels]

So my point, if the tier. If the TR3A and B are real, like the B2, the B2 is still so locked down. We sell F35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody, including allied nations. The ticket price is 2 billion. They have a new version of the B2 that's I think like 700 million or whatever. But they weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's pretty crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. So what would they be doing? Like how would it be surfing its own wave? Like what, what advantage would that confer?

[Jesse Michaels]

If you do this ChatGPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much and so you get more lift and there's reduced drag. The shock wave is reduced. The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the, the frame hits the air. And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade, but that even conventional AI will tell you that it will do. As far as being helped gun to.

[Joe Rogan]

Head, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff, man?

[Jesse Michaels]

I mean this stuff was being this was like 80s and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that.

[Joe Rogan]

So do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours?

[Jesse Michaels]

That feels really hard for me to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, no seams. Looks like it's 3D printed. Totally element 113 or 115 rather. And this generator that nobody understands.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert, that is. And this is where it gets weird. Weird, because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the anti gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti gravity.

[Joe Rogan]

Including Lazar. Like he said when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the sport model. He's like, oh, I get it. These are ours. That's why people keep seeing them. And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, no, this is not ours. Like, what the fuck is this is meant for three foot tall things? There's no controls in this. Like, what is this? This?

[Jesse Michaels]

If reality has a governor on it and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird. Quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off. Is it like a hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place, or do you get one neat solution? You don't get one neat solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of things. And so at the time that the government's kind of unraveling and all these, these, we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages and then our, our apertures are open, people are waking up to greater realities. The fact that the pandemic could even happen, like, is sort of so crazy. And then it makes you question. I was like, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine and all these things? I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time. And it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens and the UFOs and nuke stuff, which was happening since the 40s, where it's like, I don't, I don't know how. I can't explain that via anti gravity experiments.

[Joe Rogan]

And then there's A question of how many. How many different civilizations visit us? How many different things? How many different versions of these things are there? If this is like a testing ground, is it. Is this open to the general public of space all the.

[Jesse Michaels]

Also not 0 or 1. Probably 0 or 100. It's probably a zoo of things.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Jesse Michaels]

It's just the most likely thing.

[Joe Rogan]

That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler where they were documenting the different shapes. And I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer. How come you don't have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

You have a Tic Tac, you have a Tetris or whatever the fuck it is.

[Jesse Michaels]

Where's the one that everybody sees, the iconic Billy Myers?

[Joe Rogan]

That's weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, it is weird also. Do you work for the CIA?

[Jesse Michaels]

I do not. I do not work for the CIA.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you have to answer if I ask you? Is it like you remember those movies where you ask a guy if they're an undercover cop? You ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you. Yeah, people really used to believe that, but it's just a fictional tool. They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops.

[Jesse Michaels]

They don't have to tell you. But there is. I think there's like 1, 2, 2, triple 3 or whatever where, like, if you're CIA, you can't be with domestics, which I think they break all the fucking time. So I don't think that's a reason.

[Joe Rogan]

They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago, for sure.

[Jesse Michaels]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think they also killed jfk. This is the Bainson Lab video. There you go.

[Joe Rogan]

What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said. The generator looks like that's inside the ufo.

[Jesse Michaels]

Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravities, Gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called the Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting. And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity. He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills. And he talks about how the. Yeah, it's crazy. He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons. And so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that Creates a gravity well like this inward pull. But in fact it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model. And again, I would not over index on his theory. I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory, maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics. Hal Puthoff's probably the tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff. Sonny White, other people like that, that. But yeah, it is interesting that you both of these guys had two versions of gravity.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. And the, the Lazar stuff, to me it's if a guy's going to be a liar like that, he's going to tell a lot of lies, right? It's not going to be just one lie from 89.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I mean, that you basically say the same version of Forever.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, I mean the, the, the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallee's book, he talks about, because he's not a believer in Lazar, he talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid. And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something. And it causes memory lapses in certain cases. So that's also a weird factor. But there is so much, I think my buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52 and he's met Lazar through Luigi. And I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just lazar being at area 51s4. And so it's so fascinating.

[Joe Rogan]

So they gave him this liquid to kill his memory. That's the idea behind it.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know if he knew the intent. It was just drink this or whatever. And then he said that it caused, at least in the Vale readout, he says that it caused memory lapses. Is the quote in Messengers of Deception. But here's this where it gets so confusing. If you have MK Ultra was super widespread. It was deleted, you know, the church committee or whatever. But like it was, it was a very widespread program. What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer. It would be around the flying saucer program. To fuck with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out. Right. So it's just this again, it's hard to say.

[Joe Rogan]

Well then there's also weird stuff. Like the large folder that was on religion.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, like how much of that is just misinformation?

[Jesse Michaels]

I think a lot of that was passage material because it's similar to passage material.

[Joe Rogan]

What does that mean?

[Jesse Michaels]

It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever. Whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel shit. And in 79 there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane. Basically. He views this vertically. Taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base, where there are a lot of interesting things seen. And he is shown similar things along with Linda Moulton. House is taken in front of a two way mirror. And Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who we know is acting in bad faith at that time, he's even come out and admitted this shows her this thing called Project Garnet. And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing? It doesn't make sense. So. And this is what I love about Lazar. Lazar will admit that like he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit. And I only am relaying what I saw when with regards to the craft. And I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value. So there's Project Galileo, there's Time, there's Looking Glass. You know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement was with like all these weird limited hangouts are.

[Joe Rogan]

But do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are. Do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's such a great question.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't think so.

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't think so either. It's almost always nuclear.

[Joe Rogan]

That seems. Seems crazy. Well, maybe that seems crazy that there. There's no discussion about. You are on the verge of something truly spectacular.

[Jesse Michaels]

Maybe AI is their control system.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe they are AI.

[Jesse Michaels]

Maybe they are AI.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed and the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology.

[Jesse Michaels]

We are now experimenting with computational biology. You can use things like this. Neuroscientist Carl Friston, the free energy principle. There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results. But they use these microelectrode plate arrays and they program, like, rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks. And so, like, if that's the super base level, right. Like, we're just creating the, like, transistors for this, like, new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and these things could be drone apples, avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their Earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed. They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the Earth. And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear. Or like an AI thing. Or like.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's also like Pasulka, you know, Diana Pasulka, she thinks they're donations.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's what she says. Yeah, they're called donation sites. And.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Like. Which is like, if you want accelerated evolution, like, hey, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this? Just leave the wheel, you know, look over here, leave this, leave that. It kind of. I mean, that's the way to get someone to think outside the box.

[Jesse Michaels]

Plant the seed. Yeah, you just.

[Joe Rogan]

You, you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this.

[Jesse Michaels]

If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel island, which has no contact with humans, what would you. You might just airdrop a computer, figure it out. You know, they'd be like a computer.

[Joe Rogan]

This is starting with a lighter.

[Jesse Michaels]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Computer might be a little advanced.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But, yeah, you would give them some stuff.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

Especially if you, like, you have some complex alloy like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is, with layered, like, find that, figure that out.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you make it? You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it. You do it over decades because is. You really can't open it up. And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about While working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized. You need to be able to open it up to collaboration. You couldn't collaborate. You weren't allowed to.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere, okay? We're going to bring in new people, you know, we're going to bring in a new guy, See if this new genius can, hey, what do you think of this? Like, what is it? You tell me.

[Jesse Michaels]

That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure, where if you have cold war era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down, we can't let them know anything.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch up. And then all of a sudden maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid FOIA requests where you have restricted data covering, you know, material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore, or whatever. And you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy shit, we need to update this stuff. So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels. We need some disclosure on these things. You can't. It is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even think this shit is real.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right, right. And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like, make this completely opened up.

[Jesse Michaels]

And like, I don't know if you've read there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called the Three Body Problem.

[Joe Rogan]

Great show on Netflix too.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's amazing. And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us. You are working here. And that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like, you get the stuff out in these kind of partial limited hangouts thing. You go, go compete. Like just like the AI stuff, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's like, see what happens over there?

[Joe Rogan]

If you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

You're not gonna leak it. No, yeah, yeah, it's, it's to me, the, the question of civilization. Are we alone? It is the question. And I don't think we are. Yeah, that's my, my, my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are.

[Jesse Michaels]

I agree.

[Joe Rogan]

What about the numbers? Just the sheer numbers. Like, it doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we in this one very tiny planet, it's spinning around, not so special star.

[Jesse Michaels]

Occam's Razor is. We are not alone. You have the Fermi paradox, you have the Drake equation. You have all these sort of of rationalist ways of arguing that. But also look at. There's a great book called the Half Life of Facts by Sam Arbusman, and he talks about how, like, at any given time, 50% of, you know, received knowledge, like our physical model of the universe is wrong. So you can say those things are showing up in the sky. That is wrong because physics. But historically you would have been wrong. Like, that's crazy. It's a bad point. Right. And so if you actually look at. At whether we're alone or not, modern Enlightenment history is a detour from the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament, like a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons. That's kind of the passport to Magonia, Diana, American cosmic thesis. This stuff has been going on forever. You look at the devas in Hindu culture or the jinn in Islamic culture. We are outnumbered in our modern enlightenment rational skeptic epistemology.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we really are. And how many depictions from the past of flying things? Ezekiel from the Bible, vimanas, All these different. What are they saying? What are these things? What do you think that stuff is? What is it? You know, And. But then again, you and I, neither one of us has had an experience, so we're. We're just like being in the wind.

[Jesse Michaels]

I've seen something. I've seen a ufo, but what have you seen? I've seen actually a few, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How have you been so lucky?

[Jesse Michaels]

I don't know. I don't know. And maybe because they know, they're like, who knows? There are UFO researchers that, like, don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is. Just be honest. Like, I've seen the thing and I.

[Joe Rogan]

Don'T know if he's ever.

[Jesse Michaels]

I was in Laurel Canyon, where I used to live, and I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like no visible propulsion, this sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50, 60, 70ft high, right above the treetops. The trippiest part of the experience and why it's just so weird. Is I was with this woman I was kind of dating at the time. We were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon, and she was like, are you into aliens? I was like, actually, I kind of am into that. I was kind of interested in that topic. And. And then I think I joked back. I was like, I kind of want to meet an alien. And she was like, me, too. And then she goes, you'll. You'll meet them when you're. When you stop looking for them.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that is an alien.

[Jesse Michaels]

And then as we're. As we're. This is the weirdest part of the whole story. As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's, like, looking for something. It's like, why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon? Or whatever? So, like, that felt like, this weird, like, you know, like, mirroring of our conversation. I. Again, I have no idea. Then we walk into this little clearing, and we see this, like, school bus thing, like, just go right over the tree top. It was silver, metallic.

[Joe Rogan]

Like an Airstream trailer.

[Jesse Michaels]

Like an air. Like an Airstream trailer. Yeah, I can send you guys a video. I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast, I described it, and I was sent a video. And for all I know, this video is fucking fake, by the way. But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it doesn't match up with, like, the saucer, you know, triangle thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

And I don't know. I am almost more inclined to say discount out my own thing over, like, the Q cleared. Guys who've, like, seen these things at nuclear.

[Joe Rogan]

What was it in the sky for?

[Jesse Michaels]

It was in the sky for, like, a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever. She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that.

[Joe Rogan]

Huh.

[Jesse Michaels]

And, like, you're talking Laurel Canyon is, like, mostly residential. So, like, where did it descend?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So what else have you seen? You said you saw more than one thing.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. So another time, I was actually with a friend who invests, like, with me and Peter and is, like, the most rational guy you'll ever meet. Like, he's. He's a fan of, like, Noam Chomsky and, like, David Hume. Like, he is a modern rationalist, atheist skeptic. And we went surfing that day. We were back at his place. I was super into holotropic breath work at the time, which I love, love. And we were doing holotropic Breathwork. Five minutes in, we both see these like metallic looking orbs. This was this time super high up in the, in the, in the sky, like probably, you know, higher than what you would. Definitely way higher than a drone. And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me. Similar to like the typical like, orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe like the Mosle orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings. And he looks at me and I go like, what the fuck is that? He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever. And then I don't even say anything. Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here. He's like, that's not Lockheed. Like, I don't know what that is.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you entertain the possibility there's states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible?

[Jesse Michaels]

Absolutely. And you've had Rick Strassman on. He talks about, you know, dmt, the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like night vision or like, it's like a goggles or a window, you know, it's like Aldous Huxley, the doors of your perception. Are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality or are you just seeing? We see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We see between 400 and 700 nanometers, our audio range. You know, there's a certain decibel limit. Right. So like when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality, but we just don't have access to them? It's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so it's this interesting philosophical question. I don't know the answer to it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Would we even be able to function if we had access to that? Probably not.

[Jesse Michaels]

Probably not. No, it is. There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist and he talks about. It's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves? Like, why aren't you seeing hertz frequencies? We need to iconize everything we see. Just like a desktop computer. Why do you see red? Because, oh, boom, red blood, gotta run, whatever. And then they hack that with notifications on social media. But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapse, condensed version of reality. We aren't seeing the thing itself.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're, you're. Lying. That's it ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm. But neither the skeptic. We just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes, right? And there. That's as much faith based dogma as what I'm saying. So who knows? And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show. I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

But it's not to say you should discount these people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience the thing. Maybe that thing is real.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, there might be multiple different types of things that come by. And the nuclear one is a weird one. I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, slow down, hit the brake, son. You know, you would freak out unquestionably. You know, that's why we named the the rooms at the comedy Mothership Fat man and Little Boy, because that's when they started showing up. That's when we got a lot of sightings. Was post. Post the bomb.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally. And I love, I love the mothership, by the way. It's amazing. And I love going and seeing how UFO theme like, you know, in preparation for this, I've had a couple friends be like, man, Joe's like, anti UFO though. And I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure. Go to the mothership. The whole fucking thing is so UFO.

[Joe Rogan]

How can anybody say I'm anti UFO? There's fucking UFOs everywhere. There's one on the desk, there's one behind me. I know, that's so sad.

[Jesse Michaels]

And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time. Like, it's. You've done more for disclosure than anybody, in my opinion.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm not anti ufo, but I'm. I'm allergic to bullshit. And this stuff, some of it smells like bullshit, which is. I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru. Yeah, dude, what do you think is going on there?

[Jesse Michaels]

They break my brain. They were. They are. They are. This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with. And I wish I could give you a definitive these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms. They're organisms that if they're not, they're.

[Joe Rogan]

Incredible works of art.

[Jesse Michaels]

If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that basically tricked forensic Experts from John McDowell, who just won the greatest award in forensics you could win or whatever, the Grand Wall Award, who is the president of the American Forensics Scientific association or whatever in the U.S. jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver. The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz. So he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association and the head of the Mexican Navy Forensics, this guy named Dr. Jose Salze. All of these guys have seen.

[Joe Rogan]

So I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves. Let's explain to people this so they can be standalone because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There are these very small, small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that, you know, it's not us. And it has more ribs. It is more spinal columns or more, more, more discs. This is what they look like. And there's X rays of them. And that's where it gets really weird. Weird. And they're tridactyl. Right. So they have three fingers and three toes.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep. And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro who goes by Mario. And this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenance on it. So he is this Walkero gravedigger guy. And they were found in diatomaceous earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Diatomaceous earth is a desiccation tint. And so they were dried out. And a lot of the organs are actually still inside the, the bodies. And there are three different types. There are S types, which are these little winged creatures. They're J types. The J types are probably. They were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost close encounters. Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's congress, like right there, there. Like that thing looks like this, like jokey, like closing out of the third kind. It looks like it looks totally fake. Right. So that's. Those are the J types. They're like 25ish. Maybe 25 to 30, the ones that they've X rayed.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's where it gets really weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

The weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating, are these M types. These are like four to five feet. They look pretty anatomically consistent.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you seen them in person?

[Jesse Michaels]

I have.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And what was your feeling?

[Jesse Michaels]

My feeling was it was this.

[Joe Rogan]

Keep those images up, please.

[Jesse Michaels]

It was as with a lot of these things oscillating between. Holy shit, this thing is not from here. And then, dude, you have to like, chill and like, there's so many other things, you know, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually, you know, verify this stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

See if you can get that. Go the X rays, Jamie. Find the images from the X rays. That's one. But there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's Jamie in my document, actually.

[Joe Rogan]

Look at that one.

[Jesse Michaels]

Okay, there you go. So that one has eggs inside of it. What if you go. Yeah, monster Montserrat, which is hips. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

So if you go to. Yeah, if you go to the Montserrat clip. Yeah. So this. This one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl rectal fetus inside of it. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How many of these do they have?

[Jesse Michaels]

So they have 8 to 10 of these M types. These kind of most realistic looking ones.

[Joe Rogan]

8 to 10.

[Jesse Michaels]

8 to 10. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types. So. Yeah, look at that. That's. That's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan.

[Joe Rogan]

So they have teeth. That's weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

They have teeth, right? Yeah, they have. They have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organized organs inside. And then I. So this is where we need to verify stuff. They even have. Actually, could you go back to the.

[Joe Rogan]

Part of the video where. What's that? Yeah, that part.

[Jesse Michaels]

They have the.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that. Man, that's crazy.

[Jesse Michaels]

They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century, too.

[Joe Rogan]

This is art. If someone made this, I need to buy one.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You need to tell me how much this costs. I need to put it on my table. Because you're a genius. If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius. And you shouldn't just be hoaxing people. Well, so then the alternative is that's real. If that's real, that's completely insane, Joe.

[Jesse Michaels]

Fortunately and unfortunately. Fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these guaqueros, these gravediggers, are selling some of these things on the black market. And this case is the wild, wild West. It is so much.

[Joe Rogan]

How much do I get one for?

[Jesse Michaels]

I've heard seven figures.

[Joe Rogan]

Seven figures.

[Jesse Michaels]

I've heard a lot of money.

[Joe Rogan]

Geez Louise.

[Jesse Michaels]

But Peter Thiel buying one of these.

[Joe Rogan]

Don't say yes. Look at that thing.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

So crazy.

[Jesse Michaels]

But there are serious problems. I can. I want to caveat all of this. And like, you know, I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It is. My friend Michael Mazzola, who, like, kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. He's making a video or making a documentary on this that's coming out this August, and it's called this is not a hoax. I told them to put in parentheses or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever. Because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal. The signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA.

[Joe Rogan]

How come?

[Jesse Michaels]

Because there was probably human contamination, like the ncbi, which is this biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria, this is all publicly available. They've done analysis on this. And the camp that is very pro these being alien is this guy, Jaime Mohsan. And he is. I actually think he's awesome. I love him. He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico, and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies. He's very open about. We just need more scientific research. He wants more eyes on this thing. But some of the genetics, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing this stuff on, I spoke to one of them. This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ron Hel. And he's a biologist. I don't think he's actually a geneticist. And his belief is he was like, this is. You know, there's 30% of this is, like, unknown DNA that we don't know. And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar, and then you have DNA from a parasite in Africa, and you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off. So what he said, and this is crazy, is he was saying that, like, a Hominid species, an early hominid species, went from Asia to Africa. And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species. Maybe it was East Asia. So it's already, like, kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever, and then had sex with this, like, primate thing, and you end up with this hybrid. And then. Then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like, there was. There was actually, like, transmission of, you know, beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. That's. It's crazy. It's like saying the, you know, the pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the. The Wuhan Lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor. That's not real.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, we do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings. Denisovans, the Flores people, the hobbit people. What. What is the carbon dating on these things?

[Jesse Michaels]

Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan. That would be because Incan started in, like, 1450, and then all the way down to 800, 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what's fascinating, because, you know, there's this. There's. There's this mystery of the hobbit people, right, where they. They didn't really think that that was. There's a lot of speculation that it was some bizarre type of human being that was deformed and tiny. And then they realized, like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain. Just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal. There's a thing called the Orang pendek. Have you ever heard of that? No.

[Jesse Michaels]

What is that?

[Joe Rogan]

They think, I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, where people talk about these little tiny, hairy people that live in the jungle.

[Jesse Michaels]

Whoa.

[Joe Rogan]

And so these Flores things. There's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive.

[Jesse Michaels]

Interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive.

[Jesse Michaels]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Are you serious?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So if they're alive, if this turns out to be true, like, let's imagine it is, because there's been things like the coelacant, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one, and they're like, oh, my God, this is a prehistoric fish and still alive. And now they know that there's a population of them. But this is the deep ocean, right? Much less explored. But when you look At Indonesia. When you look at Flores, the island of Flores, you look at all these places, like you're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited. So maybe like. And these things used to live on that island. For sure. We've got bones. We know they lived, we know they used tools, we know they probably had language. They lived on that island. They might still be alive. So we didn't know about these things. And I think, Was it the 90s? I think when they discovered them, Denisovans, I think was like 2010. And then this new species, the big headed people, were they Juliennes, what do they call them? That's it. That's like a few months ago.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

They found these.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And this is another type of human being. So what, what are the odds that there's some three footed, three toed, thing that existed a few thousand years ago?

[Jesse Michaels]

And there are pictographs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru.

[Joe Rogan]

So this is one that looks, looks fake as. But this guy is driving in his motorcycle and he's filming and he claims that he got this thing running away.

[Jesse Michaels]

No way. A little hairy thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. You could see as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing like darts across the road in front of him. And this is a few years ago too, where, you know, CGI sucked. So there it is. You could see it real briefly for a second. It just runs across the road. Look at this. That.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh my God.

[Joe Rogan]

What is that? I don't know. But if this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, God damn, it looks good.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

If it did exist at one point in time, and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive. That thing, the X ray of it, or the mri, the CAT scan looked human, but weird.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes, but the teeth and the jaw.

[Joe Rogan]

It looked like a deformed human.

[Jesse Michaels]

And it is important to note that there were skull elongations, rituals going on as early as the Paracas people, which were pre. The Nazca people.

[Joe Rogan]

What were they imitating?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's the interesting question. The Nazca lines, why are they making. It's probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view.

[Joe Rogan]

And they're miles long.

[Jesse Michaels]

And they're miles long.

[Joe Rogan]

What are you doing?

[Jesse Michaels]

And there are pictoglyphs, you know, cave art all over the region with three fingered beings, with tridactyl beings.

[Joe Rogan]

Are there really?

[Jesse Michaels]

There are. And this is the weirdest thing there's a guy named Thierry Amin, who is like the first Westerner. He's this French kind of. He's an amazing archaeologist and explorer. And he was the first guy that met Leandro the gravedigger, who found the bodies to begin with. He. Kalki is the actually, like, local dialect there that's spoken. He says that the name of the general region means laboratory for insemination and cloning.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. What? Yeah. In calke. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Jesse Michaels]

So, like, I have. I need to corroborate this. Like, I don't have the skills to do that. But, like, that's what he says. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

What the fuck, man?

[Jesse Michaels]

I know. But then, holy shit, why this case is such a headache is like, there's this guy, Steve Mera, who I think is a totally. He's a UFO researcher. He's the one of the less mushy brained UFO researchers. There's a lot of mushy brain UFO researchers. Really smart guy. I've like quoted him a lot of my other videos. And he's like, we looked at one of the M types, one of the bigger ones that, like, I'm still holding out hope for because, like, I'd love it to be real. And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges, and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like, I think they were constructed, but I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experiments experts? So it's this weird. It's just the DNA stuff. You don't get a good signal. And the reason that nobody even cares, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masan, where he rolled out this J type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind in front of the Mexican Congress. This guy named Manuel Casera, who was an artist who was making renditions of the things with like, wood and sticks and stuff glued together. He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada. And there were. Reuters picked this up, saying this is all fake because of these fake. And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with, where he goes, this was art, we dub it, but he goes, this was art. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

So, like, so that's. The signals crossed.

[Jesse Michaels]

The signals crossed. And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like, let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out. I think we can figure it out quickly if we had the right resources. And there are all these Interpol laws, like you can't move the bodies from Peru. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean that just, if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough, I agree that there's like three fingered, three toed people that live totally with a weird shaped head.

[Jesse Michaels]

And if you find, if the, there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the. How can you hoax that? How can you hoax that? That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

So, and, and he's Zolce, who by the way is the head of the Mexican Medical Navy. He was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like, we don't wanna be associated with this. And now the new Secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated, but he is like. I was like, jose, if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case, would they say it had three fingers? He goes, yes. So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal. But then you have the Steve Mira thing. And so I just, I don't wanna come back out fully, you know, I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Of course, of course. Yeah, of course. But I mean, how much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right? Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance. You know, like something unusual has to occur. You got to get trapped in mud.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, that's how. So most of the things that have lived we don't have fossils of, which is if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off like 500 years ago. And these years ago.

[Jesse Michaels]

And these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine which preserved their organs and their whole body.

[Joe Rogan]

Just from an anthropology perspective, that should be the most fascinating thing. But it's got the stink of a hoax on it. So people don't want to go and study it.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. Part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of Reality fund that I tie to the show where I'm like, I see so many cases like this where I'm like, if we just had some money and it's like so important for humanity, right? And it's like non profit. It's just, let's just pay to get the best people. I think one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems. We're building $15 billion particle accelerators, people are stuck in string theory, we're like debating all this dumb shit. And you have these things, I don't know if they're real, you can debunk it. Fine. But if they're real and it's not zero percent that they're real, according to these forensic experts, let's pour some resources into it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it might be real. They look real.

[Jesse Michaels]

They look kind of real.

[Joe Rogan]

They look very real.

[Jesse Michaels]

When I was in person, I was freaking, I was like, what the fuck?

[Joe Rogan]

Like I said, if that's art, whoever made it is fucking incredible. If that's art, you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy. And then alter it.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then make it uniform so you do multiple versions of these things. Go back to that image again, Jamie, the one you just showed me. Look at that head, man.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That looks like a alien.

[Jesse Michaels]

It totally looks like. You know, the one other weird wrench that I, I we should mention is there's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case. He looked at, at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J types. Now I don't think the J types, the things that were rolled out in front of the Mexican Congress are necessarily real. I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real. And he found alpaca proteins on them. And so that's another important point. That is a little fly in the ointment here.

[Joe Rogan]

So somebody probably made fake ones too. But if there's a market where you can get seven fake figures for a real one, of course someone's gonna make some fake ones.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

100.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But at the end of the day, like, what is that? And why do they have three fingers and the Lazar craft, Didn't it have like some sort of an indentation for hands?

[Jesse Michaels]

It did, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And didn't have three fingers?

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh, I don't know, did it? That would be wild. I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it did.

[Jesse Michaels]

Oh my gosh.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it did. Did. And I think it was really small, just like these things are.

[Jesse Michaels]

We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience.

[Joe Rogan]

What if that's it?

[Jesse Michaels]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and also here's the thing. We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet. Yeah, it might be from here.

[Jesse Michaels]

Hal Puthoff noted that on your show. He has a paper called the Silurian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas impact, you know, or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez. You know, there's the asteroid impact, killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

What break off civilization just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.

[Jesse Michaels]

There you go.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Like the underground, those tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they have this immense underground civilization or city rather.

[Jesse Michaels]

And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's what they think it was. Yeah. So imagine, imagine if there's some break off civilization where they lived. I mean we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us. And you know, sometimes they come visit.

[Jesse Michaels]

Could be man could be just one.

[Joe Rogan]

Of the reasons why they come out of the ocean a lot.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally. They're trans medium. And like in some sense you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like, don't destroy your plant, don't destroy our planet. We're here.

[Joe Rogan]

You'll kill us too, you stupid.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Also you're dropping nukes in the ocean.

[Jesse Michaels]

You know the Marshall Islands test. Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

That's nuts.

[Jesse Michaels]

Really nuts.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

And I think. Yeah, it's a whole other rabbit hole. I don't know if you want to get it.

[Joe Rogan]

See if you can find out if the Bob Lazar ones had handprints for them. There's a hand scanner he talked about, but it wasn't about three fingers. No, the hand scanner was at Los Alamos. I typed in Bob Lazar ufo. Three fingers. Fingers. AI says his claims have nothing to do with aliens. What did he say? The controls for the. The vehicle.

[Jesse Michaels]

Because seems like mental, right?

[Joe Rogan]

There's something about putting your hands on something. Believe there's something. Helmet115. Didn't it say something about controls like. Like that there. What did the inside of the craft look like? Inside of craft? So that's Jeremy Corbell. I could skip through that real quick. Outlines. Okay. God. I want to say that they had.

[Jesse Michaels]

Three fingers that would Be wild.

[Joe Rogan]

That would be fucking insane. Because they're tiny. They have three fingers. That's these things.

[Jesse Michaels]

He said the seats were very small. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They're supposed to like 3ft tall or 4ft tal these things.

[Jesse Michaels]

There you go.

[Joe Rogan]

That's these things.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. And they're in the cave art. It looks like they're flying. It's like, hard to say because it's on caves or whatever, but I want.

[Joe Rogan]

To see that too.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, there's. Yeah, you can do tridactyl cave art.

[Joe Rogan]

God, how weird. And how old is this cave art?

[Jesse Michaels]

I think it's dates to the Nasca period. So around that time.

[Joe Rogan]

See, let's look up that first. You did tridactyl cave art. How weird. It's all so weird, man.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, it's so weird.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so weird. It's because it's almost. It's almost like reality's with you.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, it is. It is. And you have like, the Amazon is. There's probably one in my doc, Jamie, that I sent you.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a couple there. Oh, there. Four. There's one there.

[Jesse Michaels]

There's three. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa. Three fingers and three toes. That's crazy. Textile fragments.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Circle 1000 A.D. whoa.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head, weird eyes. How strange, man.

[Jesse Michaels]

So nuts.

[Joe Rogan]

There's so much we don't know. And everyone's scared of being ridiculous.

[Jesse Michaels]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, everyone's scared. This is one of the great things about what you do and what I do is that we don't have to worry about being ridiculous.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

Because we just are.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. And we don't have to be like, we have credentials.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right, right, right. About being taken seriously.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because so many people do worry about it and they don't want to stick their neck out, but when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toed artwork from a thousand fucking years ago.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it looks really weird. And then you see these things, you're like, hey, is that real?

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally. And discoveries require boldness. They require, like, just going for it.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's. Yeah, it's this like, kind of nitpicky credentialism of like, I can't. I can't say anything other than the est. What is your incremental addition then to human knowledge?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And when faced with undeniable evidence, will you relent? Will you give in? Or you just, like. Will you just, like, dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit to the till you drop off the face of the earth? Like, what's going on with Egypt? You know, like, you know when I had Zahi Hawass on and he's just completely unwilling to look at that. What is it? Tomography, Geography. The data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramids.

[Jesse Michaels]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

This is. This is. Is it a.

[Jesse Michaels]

Sure, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you know? You don't even understand the science. How could you possibly know?

[Jesse Michaels]

No first principles, arguments around, right? It's just. No, it can't be, or whatever. And I'm like, oh, so you're. It's politics. It's. Science is supposed to be the most immune from politics and it's the most political thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Weird. It is weird when you find that out. It's so disappointing.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's so disillusioning. Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people and they immediately start using tear. Look at this one.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's so wild.

[Joe Rogan]

This. Whatever that thing is around it has a. Like one arm with three and then one arm with three and one foot with three and one foot with three. This one's inside of it. Why? What is that supposed to be representing? To heads? I don't know. There's a couple other things on the other page that had two headed cats, maybe two heads, but no eyes. How weird is that? Like, what is that big eye? When I hear. When I hear two eyes. Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls. You know what I'm saying?

[Jesse Michaels]

A little sports model, right?

[Joe Rogan]

What's showing the fingers? Meaning like the fingers or what operates this thing? What are you seeing?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

This is so nuts, man.

[Jesse Michaels]

It's so crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

All three fingers. Like, what are the odds of that?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What are the odds that this is a thousand years old? These images and these textiles and then you find this stuff.

[Jesse Michaels]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, what?

[Jesse Michaels]

And it's in the mythology, right?

[Joe Rogan]

What the fuck is going on, man?

[Jesse Michaels]

I know, it's so frustrating. Jesse, I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent. We have to like lidar it and understand we're finding cities every day. We need to do the research. Research.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we do. We do. Look at more of these. More three finger ones. God, so weird. Yeah, so weird. It's like almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke. Yeah, it does. Thing that was on a petroglyph.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah. Luke, who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show.

[Joe Rogan]

He's been on.

[Jesse Michaels]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

He was amazing.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, he's fantastic.

[Joe Rogan]

Fantastic. He was so good.

[Jesse Michaels]

He. He will say like, he's been everywhere, right? And, like, he's always like, peru is the weirdest place I always go. Really? So.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in. I love your show. It's so good. It's excellent. American alchemy. It's on YouTube. Is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like, how do they find the channel?

[Jesse Michaels]

Jesse Michaels on YouTube? I have a WAP, which is where we. It's called WHP. It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff. I don't know. I don't sleep.

[Joe Rogan]

You just must absorb because your stuff is really well produced. It must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that.

[Jesse Michaels]

Honestly, I'm burnt out.

[Joe Rogan]

Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I really appreciate you.

[Jesse Michaels]

I appreciate you.

[Joe Rogan]

Everybody. Go watch it. Go check out the channel. It's fantastic. If they want to find you on social media. What is your.

[Jesse Michaels]

My social media? Jesse Michaels official on Instagram. No way. Thank you. Vaynamikes existence.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, is it? Yeah, I'm sure.

[Jesse Michaels]

Roll call. Back in the day.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, well, thank you so much. It was fun. Let's do it again sometime when more shit's gonna come out, hopefully.

[Jesse Michaels]

Let's do it. Awesome.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you. All right, bye, everybody.