#2335 - Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2335 – Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Introduction

In episode #2335 of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan engages in a profound and candid conversation with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden, a private practice ear, nose, and throat (ENT) physician. Released on June 10, 2025, this episode delves deep into the controversies and challenges surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly focusing on vaccine efficacy, alternative treatments, and the broader implications for the medical community and society.

Background and Early COVID-19 Response [00:15 - 04:22]

Joe Rogan begins by introducing Dr. Bowden, highlighting her presence on the Danny Jones Podcast and her active engagement on Twitter during the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr. Bowden shares her professional background, explaining her solo practice and her unexpected entanglement in the pandemic's complexities shortly after reopening her clinic six months before COVID-19's onset.

Dr. Bowden [03:17]: "I trained at Stanford and then I moved to Texas after residency, and then I worked in a small private practice for seven, eight years... I opened up a solo practice six months before the pandemic started."

COVID-19 Treatments: Ivermectin and Monoclonal Antibodies [04:22 - 19:02]

As the pandemic unfolded, Dr. Bowden observed a surge in patients with persistent respiratory infections. Frustrated by the delayed testing results from major labs like LabCorp and Quest, she leveraged her existing partnership with MicroGen DX to offer next-day saliva testing, which significantly increased her clinic's patient base.

Dr. Bowden discusses her early use of monoclonal antibodies, which were initially effective but became scarce as distribution shifted to government control. In response, she turned to Ivermectin, an alternative treatment option she believes was unjustly maligned by authorities.

Dr. Bowden [01:35]: "Covid is no longer a threat. We're dealing... Why in the world would we give them to pregnant women or children?"

Joe Rogan and Dr. Bowden critique the motivations behind promoting vaccines over alternative treatments, suggesting financial incentives and ego as driving factors rather than scientific efficacy.

Joe Rogan [01:37]: "The only thing that makes sense is money, right?"

Media, Propaganda, and Public Perception [19:02 - 45:00]

The conversation shifts to the role of media and government in shaping public perception. Dr. Bowden recounts instances where media outlets, like Rolling Stone and Vanity Fair, spread misinformation by labeling Ivermectin as "horse dewormer," undermining its legitimacy as a human treatment.

Dr. Bowden [13:11]: "They branded you. When I think of you, I think of that picture of you where you're slightly green, honestly."

Joe Rogan criticizes the coordinated efforts to discredit alternative treatments, emphasizing the pervasive nature of propaganda during the pandemic.

Joe Rogan [19:14]: "It was all very coordinated. Oh, and then... They took away monoclonal antibodies."

Professional Repercussions and Legal Battles [45:00 - 77:08]

Dr. Bowden shares her personal struggles with the medical establishment, detailing how she faced complaints from medical boards for prescribing Ivermectin. She describes a particularly traumatic incident involving a court-ordered privilege to administer Ivermectin to a sheriff's deputy, which ultimately led to her being labeled as guilty by the medical board.

Dr. Bowden [45:09]: "They said that I sent a nurse to the hospital without privileges and I caused a scene and I, you know, I harmed other patients by doing this."

Joe Rogan highlights the systemic issues within the medical profession, where compliance and conformity often suppress dissenting voices seeking safer, alternative treatments.

Joe Rogan [41:07]: "Doctors are being silenced for prescribing Ivermectin."

Long-Term Effects and Vaccine Injuries [77:08 - 126:17]

The discussion deepens as Dr. Bowden elaborates on the long-term effects of COVID-19 vaccines, citing elevated antibody levels in vaccinated individuals and potential integration of spike proteins into human DNA. She expresses concern over the lack of comprehensive studies and the flawed nature of existing research, which she argues was designed to negate the benefits of treatments like Ivermectin.

Dr. Bowden [58:07]: "But I do see patients... there's no way to track them. It's a big problem."

Joe Rogan and Dr. Bowden debate the legitimacy of Long COVID, questioning its differentiation from vaccine-induced ailments and advocating for more transparent research.

Joe Rogan [56:58]: "What is this long Covid you speak of? Is there long flu? Is there... Where's the long pneumonia?"

Broader Societal Concerns: AI, Surveillance, and Health [126:17 - 177:08]

Transitioning from health to technology, the conversation ventures into the realm of artificial intelligence (AI) and its potential threats. Both Joe Rogan and Dr. Bowden express apprehension about AI's rapid advancement, its integration into daily life, and the implications for privacy and societal control.

Joe Rogan [87:59]: "This is a test of civilization and it's...creasing our species and changing it really quickly before we even realize it."

They explore the ethical dilemmas posed by AI, including surveillance capabilities, autonomous vehicles, and the erosion of privacy.

Health Practices and Preventative Measures [133:02 - 147:55]

Dr. Bowden discusses common health practices such as tonsillectomies, ear tube insertions, and Vitamin D supplementation. She criticizes recent reports that label these procedures as harmful, advocating for evidence-based approaches to treatment and prevention.

Dr. Bowden [132:08]: "The MAHA report just came out and said that they called it proven harmful. The tonsillectomy and adenoid... it was just all... basically done for money."

Joe Rogan laments the public's waning trust in medical institutions and the spread of financial incentives that compromise patient care.

Joe Rogan [137:47]: "When you hear about the financial incentives even for things like chemotherapy... it's so hard to wake up to that."

Conclusion: Resilience and Advocacy [177:08 - End]

As the episode draws to a close, Joe Rogan commends Dr. Bowden for her courage in challenging the established medical narrative. Dr. Bowden reflects on her journey, expressing exhaustion but also a sense of liberation from facing systemic oppression.

Dr. Bowden [171:58]: "I've never been in any trouble. I've never been sued."

The duo underscores the necessity for continued advocacy and structural changes within the healthcare system to prioritize patient well-being over profit and conformity.

Joe Rogan [177:07]: "You have to kinda hold people accountable because if you don't, they're going to keep... They'll ratchet it up even further and further."

Key Takeaways

• Alternative COVID-19 Treatments: Dr. Bowden advocates for Ivermectin and criticizes the suppression of alternative treatments in favor of vaccines.

• Media and Propaganda: The role of media in shaping public opinion and discrediting non-conventional treatments is a central theme.

• Professional Risks: Physicians who deviate from established protocols face significant professional and legal repercussions.

• Long-Term Vaccine Effects: Concerns are raised about the long-term impacts of mRNA vaccines and the adequacy of existing research.

• Technological Threats: The rapid advancement of AI poses potential risks to privacy, security, and societal norms.

• Health Practices: There is skepticism about recent reports labeling common medical procedures as harmful, emphasizing the need for evidence-based medicine.

• Advocacy and Change: Both speakers highlight the importance of advocacy for systemic changes to prioritize patient health over financial incentives.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Bowden [01:35]: "Covid is no longer a threat. We're dealing... Why in the world would we give them to pregnant women or children?"

• Joe Rogan [01:37]: "The only thing that makes sense is money, right?"

• Dr. Bowden [13:11]: "They branded you... It was traumatic."

• Dr. Bowden [58:07]: "There's a big problem... it's a big problem."

• Joe Rogan [56:58]: "What is this long Covid you speak of? Is there long flu?"

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Joe Rogan Experience provides a critical examination of the COVID-19 pandemic's medical and societal handling. Through Dr. Mary Talley Bowden's firsthand experiences and insights, listeners gain a perspective on the complexities and controversies that have shaped public health responses. The conversation underscores the necessity for transparency, accountability, and a reevaluation of established medical practices to better serve patient needs.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. All right. Very nice to meet you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Nice to meet you.

[Joe Rogan]

I have. I saw you on the Danny Jones Podcast, and I've read a lot of your tweets and Twitter and just the. The entire ordeal that you've been through, so. Since the beginning of COVID And so I felt like it would be very educational for people to hear your perspective.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I appreciate you continuing to talk about COVID because I think a lot of people are sick of it. I'm certainly ready to move on, but I am, too.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's just people need to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Exactly. And nothing's happened. Really? Nothing's been corrected?

[Joe Rogan]

No. Not only has nothing been corrected, I was just watching an argument on television where they were trying to argue for vaccinating women who are pregnant.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, right. That's insane. I mean, there's a golden rule of pregnancy, right? You don't experiment on pregnant women. You don't experiment on an unborn child.

[Joe Rogan]

You're not even supposed to eat sushi.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Exactly Right. But we're going to put this modified MRNA technology into these women who, you know. Early treatment. We have early treatment. Covid is no longer a threat. We're dealing. You know, at one point, it was more than a cold, but not now. Why in the world would we give them to pregnant women or children?

[Joe Rogan]

The only thing that makes sense is money, right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, it's the only thing that makes sense. And ego.

[Joe Rogan]

And ego meaning. Because they've already recommended it. Because they don't want to admit that it's not effective. They don't want to admit their side effects.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean, we have hard facts showing it should be pulled off the market. I mean, any other product would have been pulled a long time ago. If this were an antibiotic and we'd seen all the carnage from an antibiotic, it would have been yanked off long ago. It should have been yanked off in the first month. There's no other explanation than. There's just. There's fraud, there's corruption, there's ego, there's money. But it's not science.

[Joe Rogan]

No. And there's a lot of people that, for whatever reason, they have this very rigid ideology that the pharmaceutical drug companies are to be trusted, and we should trust the science. And that all these organizations, whether it's the FDA or whatever it is that's connected to these assertions, they should be trusted, not just the average doctor who's talking about these side effects and all these different things that they're experiencing with their. Their patients.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I mean, I trusted them when the pandemic started. I mean, I didn't think that the shots would work necessarily, but I trusted them. I didn't think they were going to hurt us.

[Joe Rogan]

Why didn't you think they would work?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Because they were rushed to the market. I knew the flu shots were already iffy. We're dealing with a virus that mutates. We've never been able to vaccinate against a cold, which, you know, it's a rapidly mutating virus. It's been tried before and it's failed.

[Joe Rogan]

If you don't mind, please tell everybody what your background is in medicine.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I'm private practice, solo physician. I'm not head of the Mayo Clinic. I'm just a neighborhood ear, nose, and throat doctor that sort of got tangled up in this inadvertently. And I always thought when the pandemic started, I thought, well, this will be the hospital. This will be a chaos in the hospitals. I never envisioned getting wrapped up in this at all. I, you know, I trained at Stanford and then I moved to Texas after residency, and then I worked in a small private practice for seven, eight years. Then I started having a bunch of children and I pretty much gave up medicine. I mean, I took a seven year sabbatical. I wasn't even sure I was going to go back. But then I just had this itch that needed to be scratched and I opened up a solo practice six months before the pandemic started.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, boy, what timing.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I know why I do it.

[Joe Rogan]

You could have been out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Well, sometimes the universe has a calling for people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You know, it's been a very interesting journey.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, so take us through what happened with you at the very beginning. Like, so Covid starts making its way across the world.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. So I had people coming in with respiratory tract infections that were stubborn. They were not, you know, the typical colds. And there was all this news that there's this virus from China. But you watch something on the news, you think, oh, that's not going to really affect me. But I started having more and more patients coming in. And at first I really didn't know what to do. I just used common sense. I treated the symptoms. I used breathing treatments, I covered for secondary infection with antibiotics. I used steroids, that sort of thing. And I had success. But I didn't have a lot of people showing up at my doorstep treating me for Covid. But I did start Having people wanting to get tested. And you might remember that LabCorp was the first lab in the country to offer the test. And they just got completely slammed. So it took two weeks to get the results back. We were already working, I was already working with a lab for patients with chronic sinusitis who they were doing PCR testing for chronic sinusitis. So it tests for bacterial and fungal infections of the sinuses. It's called MicroGen DX. And they came out with a saliva test for Covid. So and we were able to get the results back the next day. So I started offering that and my little clinic exploded because. And I'm located in a strip mall, which is very purposeful. I'm very close to the medical center which is, you know, to get your doctor's office, it's a 10 minute navigation of the parking garage and another 10 minute walk to the office. And so I was trying to locate my office where it was very easy to get in and out of. And then that served me very well during the pandemic because with these saliva tests, you could just take the cup to somebody's car, they could spit in the cup, they could leave it outside, it was contact free. You didn't have anything shoved up your nose. And then we got the results back the next day. And so that sort of made me put me on the map in my little neighborhood. And then I started tracking when the vaccines came out, I started tracking who was positive by their vaccination status. And so I started noticing that the vaccine wasn't working. And that's sort of what got me in trouble. I also started giving monoclonal antibodies and I didn't ration them. So I became known in town as the place you could get monoclonal antibodies without having to pass being a certain race or a certain age or that sort of thing.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think that was all about?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't know. The monoclonal antibodies is very frustrating to me. They worked very well. They were not controversial. People would turn around the next day. But when they first came out, I could get as many doses as I wanted. I mean, they show up at my doorstep the next day and it was great. I mean, that also sort of put me on the map with COVID And then I didn't even use Ivermectin until the government took over distribution of monoclonal antibodies. And then it became harder and harder to get them. And that's when I turned to Ivermectin. But you know, in my opinion, they did that on purpose. They did that to encourage people to take the COVID shot. It was very orchestrated, if you look at the timing. The. You know, in March, the government put out the big information on Ivermectin and why you should not take it for Covid. They put that on the FDA's website. At the same time they launched COVID 19 Community Corps. And this was April 1, 2021. This was an $11.5 billion slush fund to propaganda, to feed out propaganda and censor people. And the day that they launched the COVID 19 Community Corps was the same day that Houston Methodist, which is where I had privileges. They mandated the COVID shots for all their employees, and they were the first in the country. And that's sort of how I got tangled up in all this, because I had privileges there. And then I was actually working with them. I was doing research with them. I was sharing my data with them to try to get it published. But then I started questioning the vaccine and how it wasn't working. I brought it to their attention first, and they gaslit me. They just said, well, it lowers severity. And when they ignored me, then I started speaking out on social media, and that's what got me in trouble. But so that summer of 2021, that's when the third and the largest surge of the pandemic started. And this was after the rollout of the wonderful Covid shots, which are promised to stop transmission and prevent death, and obviously didn't. And the government was getting frustrated, so they doubled down on their Ivermectin attack. And this was. End of August 2021. They put out the infamous horizontal horse tweet. Said, seriously, y' all, you're not a horse. You're not a cow. Stop it. A tweet went viral. It had dire consequences, in my opinion. And then they approved. They fully approved the COVID shot. And then Biden mandated for. For employers with 100 more employees. And that was right when they took you down. So it was all very coordinated. Oh, and then. And then the. The final straw was taking away monoclonal antibodies.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I mean, they branded you. When I think of you, I think of that picture of you where you're slightly green, honestly. Yeah. But Ivermectin, I was nervous about using it because of all the hype and because monoclonal work, because monoclonals worked so well. I was like, well, this is not going to live, you know, this is not going to work. I was nervous, but the first thing I did was dug into the safety, and anybody could do that, which is a minimal amount of effort. You can go to the FDA website and you can find the toxicity data on Ivermectin. And. And there's something called the LD50, lethal dose 50, which is. It's a benchmark number that gives you an idea of how toxic a medication is. And LD50 means how many animal 50. What dose would kill 50% of lab animals? So for Ivermectin, it kind of depends on the rat. I mean, the type of animal and the gender. But it's basically 10 milligrams per kilogram up to 80 milligrams per kilogram. So for Covid, we're using 0.4 milligrams per kilogram. So I knew that we were not worried about killing people with it. And then I did a literature search and I looked for accidental, intentional overdoses for Ivermectin, and I couldn't find a single study. Whereas you do that for Tylenol. I mean, thousands, thousands of reports. So once I knew it was safe, then I started using it. And then I found it worked. And then, all in all, I treated well over 6,000 patients. And everybody that got early treatment stayed out of the hospital. I also had patients come in that were really sick in the second week. And that was such a learning experience for me because normally if somebody walked into my office with an oxygen saturation in the low 80s, I would call an ambulance. But I had patients who would refusing to go to the hospital, and I had to give them the option to possibly die in my office, which is scary. But we saved them. We just threw the kitchen sink at them. And we didn't have monoclonal antibodies, so we did. We brought them in every day. We did IV steroids, we did IV antibiotics, we gave them home oxygen, we Gave them high dose of ivermectin. We did everything we could and it was amazing. I mean, they survived. It was very gratifying.

[Joe Rogan]

So you think it was probably a combination of all the different medications and all the different treatments?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You know, I would vary my approach depending on the severity, the comorbidities. I mean, it's an art, not a, you know, a protocol is a guideline. Right. But every patient is sort individual. And so for the patients, you know, the one patient I'm thinking of, I mean, he had history of two heart attacks, he had a history of throat cancer. He came in with an oxygen level, it was below 80. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I mean, so I just did everything, you know, I took everything that I could and gave it to him and it worked. But. And I had a few people like that. But, you know, if, you know, a 20 year old came in, I'd probably just give him some ivermectin and, you know, it just depends.

[Joe Rogan]

Why did you decide to try Ivermectin even though there was all this negative propaganda?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, because I had patients coming to see me who needed help. I mean, I just wasn't going to shut my door. I'd already established I could help people with monoclonal antibodies, so I still had people coming to me seeking help. And I just didn't have the heart to say no. And I knew it was safe, so I knew that, you know, it was a little bit iffy, but I knew it was safe. And there was good data showing it worked. It's just, you know, one thing you can find a study to support any argument you want in medicine. I learned that in residency. All residents learn that. We have something called journal club where you sit down once a week and you pour through different articles. And the takeaway is most articles are, you know, crap. They're not, they're not, they're low power or they're conflicts of interest or, you know, they're not, they're designed poorly. So my mindset coming into the pandemic was the research. The journals are a starting point, but it's not. The final say is your own clinical experience and what you're seeing. We had never seen Covid before. This was a brand new entity. So we were learning on the fly. But I've never treated this many patients with a single disease in my career. I'm sure I never will again. And so you quickly become an expert and, you know, doctor, I can't speak for all doctors, but we like to do well. We like our patients to get better. It's gratifying. That's how. It's sort of how you get job satisfaction, is seeing your patients do well. So why would I, you know, continue to have, you know, COVID patients come in if I couldn't help them? And it's astounding to me that the doctors in the hospitals just didn't pivot, didn't try new things, and I guess they were handcuffed by the hospital administrators. But it just seems to me that there was a doctor in Houston, Joe Verone, who I'm pretty good friends with, who. A critical care doctor. And he was one of the founders of flccc, which is sort of. They developed the original protocols for ivermectin. And Dr. Varone had much better success than most other doctors. His overall success rate was 4.4% of his patients died, whereas in other hospitals, average around 20%. And he did. He threw the kitchen sink at people, and he basically followed this FLCCC hospital protocol.

[Joe Rogan]

So when the monoclonal antibodies were suppressed, what was the messaging? Like? What did they say to doctors?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They said that the strain of the virus was no longer covered, so that it had evolved and it wouldn't work.

[Joe Rogan]

At the same time. They're using the exact same vaccine.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Exactly. And they had switched the monoclonal antibodies periodically. So it wasn't like they started with one and stuck with it the whole time. They switched it as things evolved.

[Joe Rogan]

But it was really clear. And the propaganda was shocking because we've all seen propaganda with foreign conflicts, weapons of mass destruction, all that jazz. We've all seen propaganda. But when Rolling Stone magazine printed an article saying that people were. The hospitals were overflowing with people overdosing on Ivermectin, and gunshot victims couldn't get in. And then they used a stock photo, which was of a bunch of people wearing winter coats in, like. I think it was. I think the article was August in Oklahoma. Like, the whole thing was. It was so brazen and sloppy and obvious, especially in the age of Google. If this had all gone down in the 1980s, we would all be in the dark. We would have no idea. We would have wanted. Well, I guess the Ivermectin is killing people. You know, we wouldn't have known until, like, 2030. You know, people would have, like, you have been a conspiracy theorist. You've been a crazy person. Like, one of those people that could tell you all the facts about the Kennedy assassination, you know, with wild eyes, Oliver Stone, you know, but it was so obvious and it was so confusing because, you know, I had had people on my podcast before where, you know, I had doctors on. And I talk about foolish people that don't believe in traditional medicine. Like, people that want to try different things. Like, are you crazy? People that were anti vaccine or anti anything. I'd be like, these are the best people at the front of the line. Trust them. Five years later, I'm like, don't trust anybody. They're all compromised. It's all money. And that was the most disheartening thing. The propaganda was disheartening, but it was that the whole system is compromised. And then when I found out that pharmaceutical drug companies are. They're the ones that are funding studies and that they could have a whole ton of studies. They don't have to divulge all the data from their studies. They only have to show you some studies that were carefully crafted to show efficacy. But all the other studies that they had that even showed negative effects, they could bury those they didn't have. They weren't held responsible. I was like, what is this? Like, what is this? But it's like everything in the world when money gets involved, you know, that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Rolling Stone tweet is still up. I found it yesterday. Couldn't believe it.

[Joe Rogan]

So wild. Look at that. Look at these people wearing winter coats. So apparently this was a bunch of people that were waiting in line for the flu shot. Gunshot victims. All those people got shot. What the fuck is going on in Oklahoma? They're just shooting folks. They think it's the wild west out there. Imagine if those were all gunshot. But look how crazy that article is or that tweet is. Gunshot victims left waiting as horse dewormer overdoses overwhelm Oklahoma, by the way, zero horse dewormers there. Zero. It was a total lie.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, in a. You know, even last Friday, Vanity Fair did an article on Maha and Cali beans, and they quoted me in it and in, you know, in their description of me, they used horse dewormer. I could not believe it. Still, Katherine Ebon, the reporter for Vanity Fair, and she buddied up to me, acted like we were good friends.

[Joe Rogan]

That's how they always do it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It was a lot easier. Ignorance is bliss.

[Joe Rogan]

I didn't think the world was filled with demons, money hungry demons that are willing to sacrifice human lives in the pursuit of revenue. It's crazy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's why we have to continue this fight because people have lost all trust. With good reason.

[Joe Rogan]

With good reason. That's why I'm having you on. That's why I continue to talk. People are like, stop with the COVID already. I get it folks, if this is not for you, move on. Mary and I will still be bitching about this for the next three years. Well, you know, for me it was just, it was such a wake up call because it's so weird to see your face on TV green. First of all, that was weird. And then this term horse dewormer. I'm like, why you guys aren't concentrating on the fact that a 55 year old man is fine three days later during the worst strain. It was during the delta where everybody's freaking out. This one's gonna kill us all. And I was fine in three days. And I made this video. I'm like, I'm sorry, I have to cancel the concert this weekend. You know, I got Covid. But I'm good now. And then I had. I didn't think that was going to be anything. I thought that was just going to be the people that bought tickets to see Dave Chappelle and I in New Orleans. And that was going to. Was it Nashville, Wherever it was. That's all it was going to be. Those folks, they're going to be upset. I'm sorry. You know, we'll make it up to you. Your tickets still count. That's all I thought it was gonna be. I thought it was gonna be like a normal tweet that I put out or a normal Instagram post that I pull out. Put out. And then all sudden I hear that Neil Young wants me removed from Spotify. I was like, what the fuck is going on? This is crazy. Spotify got calls from two former presidents.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Really?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

What about. Did they deplatform? Did you get censored or deplatformed?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I grew by 2 million subscribers in a month.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I did. Because people started listening because they made it sound like I was this maniac. And they started listening like, oh, he's really reasonable and pretty humble about all this stuff. Just asking questions and bringing people on. Like Dr. Robert Malone, who has nine patents in the invention of MRNA vaccine technology. Like, he's one of the. He took it himself.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He was reporting his insane adverse side effect where he almost died. He was telling about it and they labeled him a kook for that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

What made you so awake, though? Well, that just Malone.

[Joe Rogan]

That. No, well, Malone. Peter McCullough. I've always been the type of person that is, like, if someone is saying something and they have rock solid connect. Dr. Peter McCullough is the most published physician in his field in human history. Like, this is a incredibly well respected doctor up until he took a moral and ethical stand saying that this is not what they're saying, this is not what we should be doing. And then destroyed. They tried to destroy his career. It's insane. But the man has incredible courage and he was labeled all kinds. When I would tell people he's the most published physician in time, that you'd see their eyes glazed up like they didn't want to hear it. I'm like, maybe he's right. Well, five years later, we know he's right. We know he was right. He was right all along. I mean, the whole. So for me, when there's. There's always a bunch of people that are ideologically or financially captured, and then there's people that feel morally obligated to tell the truth. And you can spot those people. And when I spotted a few of them, like, okay, let me hear them out, I might be the guy that goes, no, this guy's a kook, and he's going to cost people lives. Or I might be someone who goes, hey, everybody, hit the brakes. Like, you might be getting bamboozled here. And especially the real concern with any sort of a new drug is always the side effects. But when you have indemnity, when you have complete immunity for any financial liability, like the vaccine manufacturers do, and all you have to do is label it a vaccine, because that's not a traditional vaccine. It's just not. They changed the definition for MRNA vaccine technology before that. It was not that. It was a very different thing. We all had in our head, vaccines are good. That's why they don't get sued, because we need vaccines, you know? And then, unfortunately, I read Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S book, the Real Anthony Fauci. I was like, oh, my God.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Did you. What was your initial thought about the COVID shot? What was your mindset?

[Joe Rogan]

I didn't take it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Did you take it?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I didn't take it, but that's why they were so mad at me. I was ready to take it. I. The UFC had allocated shots for all the Johnson Johnson for all their employees, and I showed up there on a Saturday, which was the day of the fights, and I said, can you give it to me? And they said, yeah, sure. Let's call the doctor. We'll set it up. I thought I was going to get a shot. I thought it was like a flu shot. Like, I'll get that shot and I'll go do the broadcast. I was going to do the broadcast. I didn't think anything of it. I was not worried about it at all. And they said, no, you have to come to the clinic and do it. Could you do that on Monday? And I said, I can't, but I'll be back in two weeks during the time that I was trying to get it. And then in two weeks later, when the next fights were, it got pulled from the market because of blood clots. And then two people I knew had strokes, and I was like, hold the up. And then I got real nervous because there was a lot of family members that were, like, really pushing it. You need to get vaccinated. Everyone should get. Have you gotten vaccinated? Get vaccinated. We all need to do our part. We all need to get vaccinated. And, you know, then I became a heretic. Then I was like, okay, I don't. I don't think I want to do. And I had a bunch of friends that had horrible side effects, including one of them, who is a young guy, was a pacemaker now.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

His heart stopped beating for, like, nine seconds at a time, and he would black out. It was wild. Shit was happening. And I was like, I don't understand why this isn't on the news. I don't understand. And then I'm like, oh, my God, I'm the news. I'm like, I have to be the news. I don't want to be the news. I like talking shit. I like having a bunch of comedians here. We have laughs. We get silly. You know, have a few drinks, watch some funny videos, crack each other, have fun. Or scientists. I like to have fascinating people in here. Tell me how the cosmos was formed. I'm not. I don't want to be someone who distributes information to the masses that's been lied to. That's not. That's. I don't have any lofty goals like that. Like, I want to be the. I want to be the one tells the truth, and that's not what I do.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm just a curious person who talks to people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Was it hard for you to get Ivermectin?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I got it from India like that. I got boxes of it. I was handing it out to everybody. I think we still have.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

People don't have to go to India to get their medicine in the U.S.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that was after my doctor got it for me. My doctor got it for me. I think I fucked it up for everybody. I think me becoming the attack boy when they went after me. I don't think they would have attacked anybody that didn't have a large platform like that. And I don't think they would. I should say it better. I don't think they would have attacked Ivermectin the way they did. I think they would have just suppressed it and it wouldn't have been a public thing because it wouldn't have got out. I think the problem was me saying that. The crazy thing is I said all that other stuff, too. I said, IV vitamins, I said Z pac, prednisone. I told them all the things my doctor put me on, and all they concentrated on was this Ivermectin thing. I was like, this is wild. Like, what is going on?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then I was like, am I wrong about Ivermectin? Like, then I started just reading about the scientists doing the team that invented it and how they won a Nobel Prize. I'm like, okay, what the hell is happening? Like, this is nuts. This is so weird.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, it was all part of the, you know, getting the shot in every arm, and that's. They had to go after Ivermectin. I mean, they launched a war on Ivermectin. Pierre Cory wrote a book about it.

[Joe Rogan]

I had Pierre on early on, too.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually sued the FDA over that horse tweet, and we won. It hasn't really changed anything. But so the fda, when they put that information or misinformation out against Ivermectin, they were really crossing a line because they're not allowed to tell the public, public, you can't take a medication for this or you should take a medication for that. They're basically allowed to just approve medications and move on. I mean, they can issue a safety alert if there's something that comes up, but they're not allowed to really direct patients. And that's what they did. And so we did sue them, and we won. And they had to take down the horse tweet, and they had to take down the misinformation on their website. But unfortunately, as you know, evidenced by what just happened on Vanity Fair, I mean, the brand of it being only for animals still lives on, and, you know, it'd be great what happened at Vanity Fair. So the reporter still used the term horse dewormer.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Wild, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Wild. You're still being labeled a horse dewormer pusher in 2025.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right, right.

[Joe Rogan]

When Chris Cuomo is out there talking about how he's taking it for long. Covid.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right, right. But it would be great if the FDA could issue some sort of statement, you know, saying that it is safe, that it is used in humans. They don't have to say much more than that. But, you know, we could use a little help in rebranding Ivermectin. And there are also a bunch of states that are trying to make it over the counter. Not sure if you've seen that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, I have.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Seventeen states have had bills in the last legislative session trying to get Ivermectin over the counter. Three have been successful, so Tennessee, Idaho, and Arkansas. Four is still in deliberations, and 10 they failed. But another thing the FDA, I believe, should do is make Ivermectin over the counter, because people are basically going to the feed store. I mean, my. My own kid, he had some sort of scabies situation in West Texas over the weekend. He had to go to the feed store to get treatment. And I did a Poll on Twitter. 52% of the respondents said they go to the feed store to get their ivermectin.

[Joe Rogan]

Is there any difference in the ivermectin from the feed store?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. I mean, I haven't heard of anybody having issues, but it's just unnecessary. This is America. We should be able to get the medication very easily.

[Joe Rogan]

And there is some sort of an efficacy for some sort of skin infections. Is that true?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Scabies is one of them.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So. But you use it topically. Is that how it's word.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You can, I mean, for, for scabies, actually you can take it orally.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But yeah, so we shouldn't have to go to India. We shouldn't have to go to the feed store. We should be able to just go to. I mean, in Mexico.

[Joe Rogan]

He still emails me. You need any more, my friend?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. That kind of worries me because you just.

[Joe Rogan]

I just bought boxes. I was handing out boxes to people because so many people were telling me they couldn't get it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And so I'm like, let me just get a lot of it while I still can.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess it's, it's probably fine, but it's not necessary.

[Joe Rogan]

People giving it to me at shows.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They were as gifts. I carry around my purse. I like rummaging for something. Oh, here's my ivermectin.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I know people that take it as a prophylactic all the time.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is so it's just what a weird drug to go after. That was on the World Health Organization's list of essential medicines.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How many people who had yellow fever and river blindness, all sorts of different parasitic infections.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It won a Nobel Prize and it.

[Joe Rogan]

Showed that it stopped viral replication in vitro. They knew that. I remember when I brought that up to Sanjay Gupta, it was like. But you know, it does, right? And you can see the look on his face where it's like he couldn't talk about it. He had to skirt around it and just do his best to. But it was like, this is kind of crazy to make an off label medication so taboo.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then to stop monoclonal antibodies. Just stop them. Well, you couldn't get criminal. My friend, one of his buddies was in the hospital and because he was in the hospital, they wouldn't give him monoclonal antibodies.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah. If you, if you, if you cross that threshold, you are not Going to get monoclonal antibodies.

[Joe Rogan]

What is that about? Does that make any sense?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, they did it by the day. Apparently there was some data showing if you gave it too late in the time course, it actually makes things worse.

[Joe Rogan]

How many people did they give it to that were too late? How do we know this?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I'm suspicious.

[Joe Rogan]

It does seem suspicious because, like why, if something, if you've shown something to be very effective, done early on, wouldn't you assume it would continue to be at least somewhat effective? Now, if you're trying to stop someone who's on the brink of death, which this gentleman wound up dying and they didn't get it to him, if you're just trying to stop and you can't do it because you're in the hospital, because you're admitted, you should have crazy data that shows like after 14, your feet fall off. 14 days of infection, your feet fall off. You go below blind. If you take it, can't give it to you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And my theory is they probably had a massive inflammatory response because we would see that the people would get the monoclonal antibodies and they would just feel like complete hell that night because it was like a little war going on in the body. And then they would wake up the next day feeling great. I don't know if you had that experience, but yeah, I pretty much did. So the second week of illness was the massive inflammatory response. So my thinking is the monoclonal antibodies may have just exacerbated that, but they could have counteracted that with high dose steroids. And that was another thing. They gave these piddly doses of steroids in the hospital. And what steroids in particular Methylprednisolone or Solu Medrol was what we typically used if we were in the hospital.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that prednisone, what I took? Is that the same thing? No.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, prednisone is an oral. There are different types. But I usually do Medrol dose pack rather than prednisone because it's been shown to help better with respiratory. It's not a huge deal. But in the hospitals they could give Salu Medrol and high doses of that, but they were giving very small doses of steroid, which is a problem.

[Joe Rogan]

Interesting. Well, that's also one of the things that they talked about in the RFK Jr. Book was that the studies that were saying that it was ineffective. The studies were not using the protocol that these doctors were using. And it seemed like these studies were designed to fail.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Exactly, exactly. And you know, like I said, you can Find a study to support or go against anything you want, basically. So I just relied on my clinical experience, and I just had so many people saying, wow, it really made a big difference. And I saw people staying out of the hospital, and it wasn't hurting anybody, so. But, yeah, a lot of those studies were basically designed to fail. Either, you know, the dose wasn't high enough, or they gave it too late, or it was heavily funded by somebody that doesn't want it to succeed.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's all very bizarre. It's really bizarre to live through. And for you, as a person who was out of medicine and then said, jump back in six months before all this, what is it like to have your worldview sort of, like, spun around like that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I mean, it's good and bad. Like, I feel sorry for the people that don't get it in a lot of ways, but I just never thought it would come to all this. You know, I. I didn't go back to work to have a huge, huge career. I was just basically trying to stay busy and, you know, active and.

[Joe Rogan]

And help people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. And. But I didn't envision this at all. It's been very impactful, I'll say that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. What has it been like? Like having. I mean, having to do this. I've been doing all these podcasts.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. It's not what I envisioned at all, but it's been. You know, I feel vindicated, finally. At least I'm not embarrassed to go to the school functions anymore or show up at the sporting events or. You know, I used to be scared to go to the grocery store because they just. They came after me so hard. And in Houston. I mean, Houston Methodist Hospital is sort of the country club, you know, the elite of the hospitals. And so for the. For them to come after me was a big deal. It's hard to get privileges there. You know, they. Their tagline is leading medicine, and they were very proud of being the first hospital in the country to mandate the shots. They didn't need to go after me. I mean, I was nothing. I was. You know, I saw a lot of COVID patients, but in the grand scheme of things, I really wasn't. You know, I was not really doing anything.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the Streisand effect, right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They attacked you. And by doing so, they made the whole thing way bigger than it needed to be.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But they did silence other doctors. I mean, I hear from doctors all the time that won't say anything because of what they did to Me?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. No, there's a lot of doctors that I know that were in danger of losing their license because they had prescribed Ivermectin.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And that was another thing. The Federation of State Medical Boards, which is this private entity, they're actually located in Texas, who oversees all the state medical boards. They sent out a directive to all the state medical boards concerning Ivermectin, concerning misinformation, and basically encouraging the medical boards to go after doctors like myself. And I mean, I'm still. I'm still tangled up with the medical board trying to clear my name. But they did that. That was. It all happened in that fall of 2021, right when Biden mandated the shots. They really came down hard on the doctors.

[Joe Rogan]

So what did they do specifically to you?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So I got several complaints, but only one of them has really stuck. The others I've cleared my name on, but they were all involving Ivermectin. No patient harm. The one that has stuck is from a hospital in Dallas called Texas Hughley Hospital. And there was this man, a sheriff's deputy, father of six, who's basically dying. They were talking hospice and his wife wanted him to have the opportunity to try Ivermectin. And he had tried to get it before getting in the hospital and couldn't find a doctor willing to prescribe it. So wife knew he was okay with it and so she sued the hospital and then she asked me to come on as sort of the expert. They had to have a doctor who was willing to prescribe it because they can't force the doctors to prescribe a medication, but they could force the hospital to give a doctor privileges who was willing to prescribe it. So that's where I came in and we won the case. And the hospital had a court order saying that they were going to give me emergency temporary privileges so that could go into the hospital and give him Ivermectin. Well, there was all this stall tactics. They were supposed to give me the privileges the same day in other circumstances at that time, because of the pandemic, they were giving doctors same day privileges. It wasn't this lengthy application process because there was a shortage of doctors, but for me, they made me submit my surgical case log for the last three years. They made me get three letters of recommendation. They made me fill out a 30 page application. I got it all done in 24 hours. And then they're like, no, no, we're not. We're actually going to deny you privileges. So it turned out in this big battle, it became Very confusing because they had to go back to the judge. And I finally got the green light, though. The lawyer's like, we can go. You've got the green light. The judge, we got the order. There's no stay on the order. I send a nurse to the hospital, because this is in Dallas and I'm in Houston, shows up with the court order, and the police greet her and turn her away. There's not a big scene. She leaves, but she's not allowed to give him Ivermectin. It turns out they did get a stay, but our lawyers weren't aware of it at the time. But this is what they're going after. Me. They said that I sent a nurse to the hospital without privileges and I caused a scene and I, you know, I harmed other patients by doing this. And it has been, I mean, it's three and a half years. They can't find an expert witness to testify against me. There have been three continuances. They finally were awarded summary judgment against me. So I'm already decided. They've decided I'm guilty, and now I'm waiting for my punishment. There was a hearing about a month ago to find out, you know, what they're going to find me with and that sort of thing, and I'm just waiting on that. But I do plan on appealing. It's just gotten crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. So the first thing they attacked you with was what. What was the first one?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

For the medical board?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I had had one pharmacist turn me in because we sort of got in a pissing match on the phone.

[Joe Rogan]

And then this is in 20, 21.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That might have been. I can't remember. But around that time, I had another. I had a. A father reached out to me, a 17 year old, had history of a kidney transplant, and they were going to Europe and they wanted to have Ivermectin just in case he got sick. And I was talking to the dad and the stepmother. I didn't realize I wasn't talking to the mother. So the mother found out I prescribed him Ivermectin and turned me in. But ivermectin is metabolized by the liver, not the kidney. So there would be no harm for him to get, you know, having had a kidney transplant for him to get Ivermectin, and he never took the medicine, but it cost me $16,000 in legal fees to get that straightened out.

[Joe Rogan]

So this was your first experience, like, oh, my God, like, this is a real battle?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've never been in any trouble. I've never been sued.

[Joe Rogan]

Did it. Would it feel weird publicly yet? Like when you were saying you were having a hard time going to the grocery store, you were worried that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That was when Methodists came after me.

[Joe Rogan]

So Methodists, they came after you very publicly?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, they tweeted about me. They went to the. I found out that my privileges were suspended from a text message from a reporter. That's how I found out. I looked at my phone, I was like, what are you talking about? I did. I said, check your sources. I don't know what you're talking about. And then I go to my email and they suspended me. And then they tweeted about it and it went, you know, I had cnn, Washington Post going after me. It was, it was, it was traumatic. I mean, I was just a, you know, a mom of four with a small practice, and all of a sudden I've got CNN calling me.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. So what did, what was going through your mind while that was happening?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Spent the weekend in the fetal position and a lot of tears. And then I was like, I was pissed and I, and I just. On Monday, I, you know, I hired a lawyer and I hired a guy to help me with the press and I held a press conference on Monday. I resigned. And then I sued them, so. And then I just have been working to try to clear my name.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. It's just. It's so hard to imagine for someone who's never experienced what you went through, what that must be like emotionally, to just get thrown to the wolves in front of the world, like publicly by people like cnn, like, where it gets so weird because if. If that never happens to you, you look at CNN and you go, oh, they're the news. They're gonna tell me the truth. That's. I thought. I just automatically thought that. Or they're at least saying what they're allowed to say. Maybe the government holds back some information, but they're not gonna lie. And then I see my own self on TV and I'm sure. But I'm used to being like attacked for things.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think the harder was, you know, cnn, whatever, but it's more just the locally, like going to the grocery store, going to the baseball game with your kids playing and like hoping, you know, sitting in a corner because you don't want anybody to see you.

[Joe Rogan]

Did anybody ever bother you?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No. Honestly, no. But you just feel self. You just feel very self conscious. It's hard not to even now. I mean, I still feel self conscious, but it's A lot better. I mean, I had a Mother's Day event out of school and people actually came up and said nice things to me for once. So that was nice.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, a lot of people got red pilled to use the matrix expression, where they woke up to what's really going on during. I mean, it's kind of a masterful job of propaganda over the years that the pharmaceutical drug companies have done. I mean, because most people aren't even aware of, of how many drugs get pulled. They're not aware of the high percentage of them. What is it, in the 30s?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, yes, about 33%. They looked at it over 10 years. 33% had significant safety warnings on the drugs. And it took about four years for those to become recognized. I mean, there are drugs I used to prescribe that are no longer on the market. I mean, so, yeah, like I said, it would have been any other drug would have definitely been pulled by now based on all the adverse events we've seen.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's just very profitable. And that's what people have to wake up to. There's a bunch of factors, right? There's, there's the, the primary one, which is a bunch of scientists that are really trying to help people and they're really trying to develop new ways to cure Parkinson's and all sorts of other problems and cancer. And, and these people are just constantly. And then there's the money people. The money people who take that thing and say, how do we give oxycontin to everybody? And then you have the Sackler family, right? You have evil. You have like actual evil. Maybe they don't have horns, maybe they don't have a fork tail, but that's a demonic thing to do. You're, you're, you're, you're infecting people with essentially something that turns them into a zombie and it's killing people especially. You're gonna make a lot of money in health too.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, especially in health.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's because you're so trusted. You're so, it's, you're coming from a position of authority. It's a very different thing, you know, especially in an area where most people are woefully ignorant. I mean, look how many doctors who are practicing doctors who are woefully ignorant about nutrition, right? It's an enormous amount, right? Now imagine the average person who has to go to a specialist about something and they're being told, oh, you need Vioxx. This is this thing I'm going to give you. And it's Going to cure your arthritis. Like, oh, great. And then you fucking stroke out. And the people who made that drug knew it was going to cause problems in people. They, in the emails that were admitted during the hearings, when they lost or during the court proceedings, they wound up paying a fraction of what they made. They made like $12 billion. They had to pay. I think they had to pay 5. So they made 7. You know, with, you know, it's costs, stuff, stuff costs money. But, Jesus, it's. It's so hard. It's so hard to wake up to that. It's so hard to, like, go, oh, wait, so they're not looking out for us? They're not, like, trying to make us better. I always thought they were the people that were the most wonderful people in the world. They're the people that are providing the medication that's keeping everyone alive. This is why our life expectancy is a hundred years old now, as opposed to just 20 years ago.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Like, oh, great, life expectancy has gone down, actually.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoops. Whoops.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Despite all the vaccines.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And vaccines are even their own special class. Right? It's the gospel. It's a religion, It's a gospel. I mean, we were. It was never questioned in my training.

[Joe Rogan]

We all know Americans are still recovering.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

From years of surging prices.

[Joe Rogan]

Now some in Congress want to make cuts to Medicaid, a program that provides critical health care to 72 million soldiers. Struggling Americans, including veterans, people with disabilities.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Kids, and your friends and neighbors. 40% of American births are covered by.

[Joe Rogan]

Medicaid, and Medicaid covers healthcare costs for.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

A third of children with cancer.

[Joe Rogan]

Working families rely on this program.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It has 77% support.

[Joe Rogan]

Nearly 9 in 10Americans oppose Medicaid cuts.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Did you know that 12 million Medicaid.

[Joe Rogan]

Families live in rural communities? Many of these people voted for President.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Trump, but they didn't vote for this.

[Joe Rogan]

If Congress cuts Medicaid, a lot of.

[C]

Rural hospitals could close and a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

Of rural families will be hurt. No matter how you look at it, cutting Medicaid just doesn't make sense.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Tell Congress not to cut Medicaid. Our health and our communities depend on it. Paid for by the Coalition to Strengthen America's Health Care.

[Joe Rogan]

This episode is brought to you by Farmer's Dog. It doesn't matter how old your dog is, it's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. And thankfully, the farmer's dog makes it easier than ever to feed your dog a healthy, healthy diet of real meat and veggies. Dogs prefer their food even Picky dogs and owners prefer their service. If you have a question about your dog, your plan, your delivery or anything else, they have 24. 7 customer service that connects you to real humans who are genuinely interested in providing the best experience possible for you and your dog. They give you detailed instructions on how to transition your dog to fresh food and even pre portion it for your dog's specific needs. Feeding your dog healthy human grade food shouldn't be complicated, and with the farmer's dog, it isn't. The entire experience from box to bowl is a breeze. So try the farmer's dog today and give healthy freshly made food a try. You can get 50% off your first box of food plus free shipping. Just go to the farmersdog.com rogan tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer available for new customers only.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Never.

[Joe Rogan]

I would have never questioned it. Not only that, I would not talk to anybody who did. I'd be like, get out of here. I'm not having an anti vaxxer on the show. Fuck off. But after reading Suzanne Humphrey's book and I had her on recently, reading that book was like, what? Wait a minute, what? And then just this can't be true. And then just look at the raw data of like when the vaccines were introduced and also when hygiene was introduced and sanitation was introduced and then massive drop off of the disease and then at the very end when it's almost gone. Vaccines are introduced in almost every case and yet we all are thinking like, thank God vaccines exist because otherwise we'd all have polio. Like, oh Christ.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. It bothers me that I never questioned.

[Joe Rogan]

It, never would have. The polio one blew me away when you find out that that was the same time where they were using DDT everywhere and the people that were getting polio first were people in rural farmland communities where they spray DDT everywhere. And it wasn't just affecting people, it was affecting horses and it doesn't cross species. So it wasn't the same thing. Clearly something was going on and everybody got locked into this polio scare. And to this day I had a friend use that to me in a text message to me about like, look, we have to really appreciate that, you know, he was like trying to make up for some stupid joke and he was saying that, look, Jonas Salk cure polio. I'm like, I don't have the time. I don't have the time to sit down and tell him. There's a great book, it's called Dissolving Illusions. You should Read it. And then you should read Turtles all the Way down, it's another great book. And then you should listen to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S journey from being a very respected and trusted environmental attorney who was applauded by the left to being some nutcase pariah who I thought was a nutcase. I had to apologize to him when I had him on the show. I said, I have to tell you, when I first heard of you and I for like, I thought you were a kook. You're this anti vaccine cook I bought. I was living in la, working in Hollywood. We, I bought into it hook, line and secret. Everybody around me thought that way. So I thought we all, this is it. Sensible, intelligent people think.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, but I don't think you can really convince people. I think they have to figure it out themselves.

[Joe Rogan]

No. And they don't want to hear it. That's the thing. It's like telling someone their spaghetti monster in the sky is not real. Like, you know, they don't want to hear it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Just can't. Right. I've just given up. But yeah, but there's hope. I mean, you came around and you're not in the field, right? And people, I think, you know, Covid directly impacted every single American. And not in a good way, right?

[Joe Rogan]

No, there's nothing good about it. And the only thing good about it was a shift in perspective and that it's going to be way harder to pull some shit off like this again, right? People are not going to buy into it, especially all those vaccine injured people who keep getting gas lit, you know, why do they keep calling it long Covid? How come nobody I know wasn't vaccinated? Got long Covid.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right? Right.

[Joe Rogan]

What is this long Covid you speak of? Is there long flu? Is there? Where's the long pneumonia? What the fuck are you talking about? Why are you calling it. Is it possible that this is a vaccine injury? I'm just asking.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, yeah, I've been looking at antibody levels in these people and it's alarming. So we have an. We really don't have a lot of tests for vaccine injured. It's hard because they'll get the million dollar workup by the time they come to see me. You know, they've gone through, you know, multiple tests, they have multiple doctors.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not really a million dollars. Is it the workup?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I don't know, but I'm exaggerating.

[Joe Rogan]

But you know, I just want to be clear. I don't get crazy for some Van Horse Dewormer. Who claimed there was a million dollar markup.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Somebody should fact check me on that. And I'm sure it was higher than a million, but one second. Oh, so they get, you know, they go through the workup and then they can't find, they can't find a test to prove that they're injured. So the doctors will put them on psychiatric medication. They'll put them on sleeping pills and benzodiazepines and antidepressants. Literally, I saw a patient was put on all three. So the only test that I have found that does seem to correlate is this antibody test. It's a spike protein antibody test. LabCorp has it. That's where I send people. Quest has it. But they put the upper limit as too low. So you don't really get a good sense. But the upper limit of the test is 25,000. And in people that have not gotten the COVID shots, I'd say it ranges usually under a thousand. And then people that have gotten the shots, I mean it's a lot of them are off the chart. They're over 25,000, but on average they're probably 10 times higher than the people have not gotten the shot. And this is people who weren't, you know, they were vaccinated four years ago. It wasn't like they just got the shot. You know, obviously Covid is not an issue anymore in terms of, you know, people getting sick. But four years later you should not have sky high antibody levels. And that's what I'm seeing. And that is alarming. It just suggests that there is a lot of spike protein still in the body causing problems.

[Joe Rogan]

And haven't they shown that the spike protein continues to be produced in the body up to 700 days later?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

There's. Yes, I mean that is, that's one study. There's some. You know what's interesting, that study, that antibody levels were really low, which doesn't make sense. So I kind of question the whole study. But yeah, I mean, I see it. I mean I see patients, I mean I still see vaccine injured patients coming to me for the first time years later. Last week I probably saw six new vaccine injured patients and they're not getting any help. The government, it's called the cicp. That's a, it's a countermeasures injury compensation program. They're supposed to help these patients. They have denied 98% of people that have applied for assistance. They, on average they, I think they've awarded 20. They've awarded 30 people, 30 of all the vaccine injured that have applied 30 people on average. The award is like $4,000 for these people. It's horrible. I mean, these people's lives are just destroyed. These are not easy things to treat. It's not like I can give them an antibiotic and they're good to go and they're fine. I mean, they're very challenging. We don't have a lot of guidance. I do see a lot of success with Ivermectin, but it's slow going. It's usually months of trying to help them. And the government really needs to help these people. There's a lot of people suffering and they're getting completely ignored. The other issue is we don't even have a code. So every disease has a numerical code. It's called an ICD10 code. It's what they use to compensate people for, or the insurance companies use them, but also for tracking. So if you have, you know, Covid has its own little code, and you can just dial in the code and get all the numbers. They don't have a code for vaccine injury. They have a code for vaccine hesitancy, but they don't have a code for injury. So all these people are just sort of, you know, they're getting all these diagnoses, but there's no way to track them. It's a big problem.

[Joe Rogan]

How convenient.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I would imagine the real problem with paying people is you'd have to pay so many, you know, but that's.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

We can just print the money. I don't know what the problem is.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, what do you give them? What if you find out you have myocarditis and your life expectancy is greatly reduced, and we know for a fact it came out of this vaccine. What do you give a person like that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You're gonna take their life's wages? What? Wages that they would have potentially earned.

[Joe Rogan]

What if it's Katy Perry?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, so be it.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, you have to give her $2 billion.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't care.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you do?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The vaccine companies can pay that money.

[Joe Rogan]

I know, but it's insane. The number of people that I personally know. What's very shocking to me is when I talk to people that are pro vaccine, still pro vaccine, and when I be very specific, MRNA vaccine, still pro COVID vaccine, that will tell me they don't know anybody who was injured by it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, how is that possible?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

How many people do you know?

[Joe Rogan]

I know a lot. Yeah, I know two people on pacemakers.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Two. And they're young people. Yeah, I know a lot of people that got fucked up, including family members. I know a lot of people that got fucked up and people that don't want to admit they got fucked up. All of a sudden they have this new cancer that's spreading, like rapidly. It's terrifying. You know, it's like I watched the Danny Jones podcast and you guys were trying to get Casey Means, Callie means to talk about SV40. Right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, my thing with Callie, I actually talked to him last night just he will not go on record to state the COVID shot should be pulled off the market and that, you know, that's the whole ma. He's ahead of my.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think that's being political? That's trying to like appease too many people? What do you think that is?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I can't read their minds, but I think it's. I think anybody with a big microphone who is in a position of power and who knows the truth is ethically obligated to speak the truth. That's how I see it. I mean, I'm not a politician. I keep hearing the word strategy, but there are, you know, there are people I see. I'm just faced with the carnage every day in my office. It's just. I can't ignore it. And I don't understand why this is so difficult other than, you know, political. But it shouldn't be political.

[Joe Rogan]

It shouldn't be. Right. That's what's disappointing because we thought that this administration come in and it was just going to kick down doors, right? Like this is it. Epstein list, day one. Who killed JFK? Let's find out. What are all these fucking UFOs?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That wasn't on my priority list.

[Joe Rogan]

But yeah, mine. I'm a dummy. I was. That was my number one. If I had, out of those three. Give me that one. Tell me the aliens are real. But this political dance, this excuse for that. So I really appreciated Jack Cruz kind of pestering him on that. And then I've talked to Bret Weinstein about that as well and he gave a breakdown of how it actually happened and when the original kidney cells from these monkeys were being used to make vaccines that they inadvertently gave these people this simian virus 40, which when it gets into the human body can lead to rapid cancer.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right? Well, yeah, that's one of the cancer causing issues with these shots. That's not the only one though, right? It goes into the cell. It's supposed to not get into the nucleus, but it could get in the nucleus. We Know that it can get into the nucleus and then if it gets in the nucleus.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, at first they thought it was going to stay local.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right, right. It's only gonna stay in the arm. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

It's only stay right where your arm is. Your body will react to it. It'll produce the antibodies and then you're good to go. And then all these silly people, you can watch them die in the streets and laugh as you step over them. Ha ha ha. I was smart. I trusted the science.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So they know that that's not true. It doesn't stay local. They know it doesn't dissipate within it was a small amount of time that it's supposed to stay inside your body, then. No, that's not true.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. So yeah, they have, they replaced one of the nucleotides with something that's hard to break down, pseudouridine. They've never shown that pseudouridine is cleared from the body. There's no study showing that we can clear it. So that could be why these people have these sky high antibody levels four years later. Because the body might not be able to break it down.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh my God. Oh my God. That's terrifying. What could you conceive of that would help something like that? Like what could you do that would aid the body in being able to do something like that? Is there anything theorized?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't know. I wish. You know, Robert Malone would be a good person to ask. Maybe he should come back on and.

[Joe Rogan]

Do a victory lap. Anyway, that guy was torn apart. They were trying so hard to make him out to seem to be a kook. And every interview he would do, he would be so reasonable, so logical, so fact based and so knowledgeable and they still, they still. He was a kook. He was a kook. I remember some fucking guy yelled at me and. Excuse me, yelled at me in Vegas. He said something about me spreading disinformation. Then he said something about that idiot Malone. I'm like that. Oh, that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The inventor of MRNA or one of.

[Joe Rogan]

Them, you know, I mean, it's. I don't know. I'm sure this, it's not like none of those things ever happen in a vacuum. I'm sure there's a ton of people working on that, but he was one of them. He's a fucking brilliant guy. But so how did they find out that it can get into the nucleus?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, if you look at lip. If you look at lipid nanoparticles and that's sort of, that's what otherwise if you just put MRNA into the body without the lipid nanoparticle, it would get destroyed. So they put it in the shell, the lipid nanoparticle. And there are studies showing lipid nanoparticles can cross the nuclear membrane. So there's that. Kevin McKernan is a scientist, he's on X a lot. He's done a lot of work in that showing DNA contamination that's getting into these shots in addition to the SV40 DNA contamination. Right. So there's, there's. And this was what Joe Latipo, the Surgeon General of Florida, he has actually called for the COVID shots to be pulled off the market. And his, his main argument was there is a certain amount of DNA that is allowed in any kind of these products and we have proof that they have exceeded that threshold. So there have been studies showing that there's excess DNA in these samples which shouldn't be there. And that's just sort of this hard line that shouldn't be crossed. Where is this DNA coming from in the production process? I guess. But it's pretty cut and dry. I think that's why Dr. Ladipo has chosen this argument to go by because there's just like a hard line that you don't cross and they have crossed that.

[Joe Rogan]

And what happens if you get too much DNA?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, it can integrate. The concern is, does it integrate into your own, into your cell DNA?

[Joe Rogan]

Are we going to make this up? Monkey people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But cancer. That's right.

[Joe Rogan]

You imagine if we made like hybrid people, they turned out to look like Neanderthals, you know, like we injected them with something that twisted their, their genes back. But just the idea of manipulating your DNA is so terrifying.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's like what, what in pregnant women? Right, right. Integrating, you know, it'd be one thing if it's a 70 year old man, but a pregnant woman.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, you hear that? These integrate DNA. You don't think good things. That's like immediately I'm like, what?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And these things are technically gene therapy products. They're not vaccines. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is a real problem with using the same term. Why not use a new term? Well, because then you wouldn't be under the umbrella of protection that vaccines currently enjoy where they can't be. Which is so crazy. It's so crazy. It's just hard to believe it's true. It really is.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It is.

[Joe Rogan]

And so for a person like you that just like you were saying, see the carnage every day, tell me what it's been like, like what is it like?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's hard because as an ent, I'm used to, I'm used to fixing people quickly. So, you know, I get somebody with a sinus infection, get them an antibiotic, they're good to go. I got somebody with an abscess, I drain the abscess, they're good to go. It's, it's sort of why I chose my specialty because I like to see the results quickly. I didn't go into primary care reason for a reason. And so when I see the injured, it's like, you know, it's very slow growing, slow going. We don't have a lot of research. It's trial and error. These people are young, were previously young and healthy, and their lives have just been completely destroyed. I don't have a big support system of other specialists I can send them to. I mean, I don't feel sorry for myself, but I'm just saying it's just very different from what I'm used to as a doctor. So I really hope that the government will step up and do something about this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that would be a nice thing to hope to do something about it. But it would be really nice if some real research was done on what are the actual long term effects. If everyone's looking at it from a position of we can't get, you know, sued for this, this is dangerous. Like we, someone has to look at it and say, well, this, these are the definite effects of this vaccine. Because it's too much. This is long Covid, it's too much. Oh, he got a neurological condition that was going to happen anyway. It's just coincidentally happened after he took the COVID shot. Like, there's gotta be some way to determine what of these ailments. Like specifically like when you were talking about that abnormal antibody levels, like, well, there are patterns.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean, I definitely see the same sort of things over and over again. So it's not like, you know, but.

[Joe Rogan]

As you said, it doesn't have a classification, right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It doesn't have a code. So we need an ICD10 code for these.

[Joe Rogan]

That seems kind of crazy. Yeah, well, imagine if that was the case with like herpes. Everybody would be like, hey, put a damn code in there so we know what this is.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. But, you know, I see very similar constellation of symptoms. I see patients with these abnormal tremors which, you know, they can't stop shaking even when they're sleeping. They feel internal vibrations or they'll have severe pain that you can't explain. You know, you get an mri, there's Nothing. There's no nerve damage that you can tell. I've seen some very strange rashes. And normally, you know, it doesn't matter what kind of rash it is. You throw a few meds at it and it will disappear. But actually the only thing that I found helpful is ivermectin for these strange rashes. And you see pots where the blood pressure, that's the hardest, I think. And this is. This, we're seeing a lot of this where the blood pressure just drops suddenly with. With no stimulation or the, the heart races with no provocation. That is very common, very difficult to treat.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a good friend of mine.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He says every now and then his heart will just jack up to like 180.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

And he has to sit down and he just has to hope that this isn't the last time he breathes. Yeah, he just sits there. He has a heart monitor. He puts it like one of them wristwatch ones, the Garmin one. He just watches his heart jack up to like 180, 180 beats per minute. Just sitting there for no reason, not knowing if you're gonna die. Another friend of mine who was really young was a soccer player. Super healthy guy, super fit, gets the vaccine. All of a sudden, giant heart racing in the middle of the night, like out of control, like, you know, like you're running a seven minute mile. Just jacked.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he wound up in the hospital twice. They nothing they could do. It all went away. It stopped. Went back to normal after a while, but now he's got this like terrible fear that he's got a fucking time bomb in his chest. Yeah, that of nowhere, which is his heart, would just ramp up and you could say like, oh, that was. It's probably a genetic thing. He probably had. It already is. Like, maybe. But this guy was super fit, super fit soccer player.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And that's the athletes. The sudden death in athletes. So it used to be 29 per year, now it's 290 per year. Growth 10 times crazy. Dropping dead.

[Joe Rogan]

The rarest of rare people to drop dead in the middle of nowhere. The best athletes in the world, the people are the healthiest in the prime of their life.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. And I worry about these kids because, you know, myocarditis, the primary symptom is chest pain. But if you've got a kid who's not even speaking yet, you have no idea if they have myocarditis. And myocarditis can leave a permanent scar on the heart and then lead to a lifelong increased Risk of sudden cardiac death. And we have no idea if these kids have been affected.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And how many kids did we see drop dead of heart attacks in, like, high school football this year?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, over. Over the last four years, rather. It was like you'd see these articles pop up all the time. You never saw those articles. Or if you did, it was super rare. And some kid with a heart condition that was never diagnosed, which does happen.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. And the schools are now making kids get cleared by a doctor before doing sports, which I don't remember that when we were kids.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. Yeah. They just threw us right onto the wrestling team. They didn't check. They didn't even see if you had a cold.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. This episode is brought to you by Visible Now. You know, I tend to go down a lot of rabbit holes. I want to know everything about everything. And if you're like that, you need wireless that can keep up. Visible is wireless that lets you live in the know. It's the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited data and hotspot so you're connected on the go. Plus, Visible is powered by Verizon's 5G network, meaning fast speeds and great coverage. And with the new Visible plus Pro plan, you get premium wireless without the premium cost. And the best part, it's all digital. No stores. You can switch to Visible right from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes. And then you manage your plan in the app. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know. Make the [e-mail] Rogan plans start at 25amonth. For the best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. What's better? It's probably better to screen them. You know, they'll find those undiagnosed conditions that kids can have.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I just think that. I think it's in response to what's happening.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it certainly is. But, I mean, that might be the good aspect of it. Maybe some people will get diagnosed that didn't have any idea that they were running around with the problem and they can fix it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's hard to diagnose. Like, really the only way you can diagnose myocarditis for sure is to do either a biopsy or a cardiac mri, which is. Most kids are not going to be put through that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's scary.

[Joe Rogan]

And what's crazy is this is all true, and yet us talking about it makes us both look like Kooks like we then will be labeled for sure. Someone will go out and attack us now and lab us. Anti vax, anti science kooks. And this is what's dangerous about this conversation. This is what's dangerous about what they said. And you know, those people work for the devil.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, do you think you'll get censored on YouTube, this interview? No, you don't, because I was just on Jimmy Dore.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And they had to bleep out like a full sentence of mine.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not bleeping out shit. I'm not bleeping out shit.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Do you think it'll be okay?

[Joe Rogan]

We'll find out. I think it's wrong if it's not okay. If it's not okay. I think YouTube is more reasonable now than they were during the pandemic. And I think they have a very difficult job managing content at scale. Where you're dealing with, you know, the. The amount of people uploading things is insanity. And they have certain things that they've tagged as being controversial because they were anti science or misinformation that it's still. There's like lingering ones. What was the issue that we had, Jamie? We had like an old episode where there was something in the old episode that would have violated their rules back then. It doesn't violate them now. But we. Because the episode was uploaded back then, what happened with that had like a weird. At the time, the penalty was like you had to do something. And so, like, they couldn't take that step away. That was kind of the issue. But the bottom line was bullshit. Everything this person said was true and proven to be true now. And now it's 100% fact. So now you can say whatever you want. Like now if you say, hey, you know that that virus leaked from a lab in China and now you can say that, like, back then you would get attacked. It would be crazy. You'd be called a racist. You'd be called the worst things possible if you just said, like the wonderful Jon Stewart bit that he did on Colbert Show. Did you ever see that bit?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I can't remember.

[Joe Rogan]

You want to see?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's watch it because it's really hilarious. This is like in the heart of the pandemic, you know, And Stephen Colbert was like, vaccine or death. You know, he was all in on it. And so Colbert was like trying to like, halt him in the middle. He's doing a bit. Jon Stewart's doing a bit. He's doing a funny bit. And Colbert tries to like, cock Block it. He tries to, like, trip him, but Jon Stewart powers through like. Like the comic that he is. You find it? Don't tell me it was taken down. One's nine minutes, one's four. All right, give us this one. All right, this is it.

[C]

I. And I honestly mean this. I think we owe a great debt of gratitude to science. Science has, in many ways, helped ease the suffering of this pandemic, which was more than likely caused by science.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[C]

And that's kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

Hold on.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Was that.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not. Listen, listen.

[Joe Rogan]

It's coffee.

[C]

I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that to you. What do you.

[Joe Rogan]

What.

[C]

What do you mean by that? Do you mean, like, perhaps there was a chance that this was created in a lab? There's an investigation. A chance. Well, there's evidence. I'd love to hear. Novel Respiratory coronavirus overtaking Wuhan, China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The Wuhan Novel Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. The disease is the same name as the lab. That's just. That's just a little too weird, don't you think? And then they ask those scientists, they're like, how did this. So, wait a minute. You work at the Wuhan Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. How did this happen? And they're like a pangolin kiss the turtle. And you're like, no, if you look at the name. Look at the name. Can I. Let me see your business card. Show me your business card. Oh, I work at the coronavirus lab in Wuhan. Oh. Cause there's a coronavirus loose in Wuhan. How did that happen? Maybe a bat flew into the cloaca of a turkey, and then it sneezed into my chili, and now we all have coronavirus. Like, come on. Okay, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second.

[Joe Rogan]

What about this?

[C]

Listen to this. Wait a second. All right, John. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. There's been an outbreak of chocolatey goodness near Hershey, Pennsylvania. What do you think happened? Like, oh, I don't know. Maybe a steam shovel mated with a cocoa bean. Or it's the chocolate factory. Maybe that's it. That could be.

[Joe Rogan]

That could be cobra. Ken kept trying to get in the way. That.

[C]

That could be. I gave them all tuberculosis. That could. That could very well be. And Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins and an age have said, like, it should definitely be investigated. Stop with the logic and people and things. Name of the disease.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Wait a second.

[C]

Wait a second. But I. It could be possible. You could be right. It could be possible that they have the lab in Wuhan to study the novel coronavirus diseases. Because in Wuhan there are a lot of novel coronavirus diseases because of the bat population there. I understand it's like the same, like, specialty. And it's the only place to find bats. You won't find bats. Nobody's like, saying Austin, Texas has thousands of them that fly out of a cave every night. Every night at dusk. Is there a coronavirus, an Austin coronavirus? No, it doesn't seem to be an Austin coronavirus. The only coronavirus we have is in Wuhan.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[C]

Where they have a lab called. What's the lab called again, Stephen? The Wuhan Novel Coronavirus lab. I believe that's the case. And how long have you worked for Senator Ron Johnson?

[Joe Rogan]

Let me tell you something.

[C]

Let me tell you something about Ron Johnson. This is not a conspiracy. Here's the thing about science. You could be right. You could be right, but this is the problem with science. Science is incredible, but they don't know when to stop. And nobody in the room with those cats.

[Joe Rogan]

He's gonna do the other thing that we already saw. Yeah, the other thing. We talked about the Spanish flu, which a lot of people never heard that before either. They did. What? Isn't that great? That's one of the best segments ever on late night television ever in the history.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Emperor wears no clothes and Colbert thinks the emperor still has a fancy robe on.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, this is the job of Comedians in Society at certain times. And Jon Stewart, he held the torch.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I didn't realize he was enlightened.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's a very smart guy. He's just. He's not a bullshitter, you know, He's a very smart guy. I don't agree with him on everything.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But has he come around on the shot?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. I don't know. I haven't spoken to him. He lives in another state. But I love the guy. He's great. And he's.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

He was my favorite, like, when I was younger.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a great comic, very funny guy and a very nice guy and very fair and honest. He's, you know, like the type of person who can do that on television in the middle of the shit, which is what it was. This was like right around the same time where the government was. Where they made that. Remember that release that they had? They said, for the vaccinated, you've done your job, but for the unvaccinated, you're looking forward to a winter of illness and death, severe illness and Death. Severe.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Severe illness and death. And this was during Omicron, which statistically was a cold. That was the one that had the least mortality. So for him to do that during that time was very courageous. Like, he had to know, like, he was. But he just had to make it really funny, which he did. Yeah, he just. He. It's so preposterous because it's so on the nose. You almost think, like, if that was in a movie, like, that would be too. Like it was a Coen Brothers movie or something. Like, oh, my God, this movie's ridiculous. Like, there's no way it would be named the same as the lab.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Did he get smeared for it?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't think he did, no. John skirted out of that. He had a show with Apple for a while and it was really good. But then I think, I don't want to speak out of turn here, but I do all the time, so I might as well. I think there was an issue with an episode they did on China. Is that the case? See if there's like data on that or if there's a story on that. But they stopped doing that show. So he had, like, Apple show, you know, because Apple TV produces a lot of shows now. They have Severance. You ever watch Severance?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I'm watching Righteous Gemstones now.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God. That's a good show. Oh, my God, that's. That is such a funny show. I didn't even hear about it until, like, this year. There's almost too many great shows.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I know it's hard to keep up.

[Joe Rogan]

That show is fantastic. That shows.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So I think it's modeled after Joel Osteen.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it really?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's my theory. And I. I pass by his church every day. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, there's something about those guys, those guys that run the megachurches, like, you gotta be crazy. Like, not one of them is like, oh, that guy makes sense. Super reasonable, normal human being. That's like, I like that guy. I want him as my pastor. No, it's always like some complete kook. In October, the New York Times reported that Apple canceled the comedy show ahead of its third season due to creative differences and execs concerns over Stewart's coverage of topics such as China and AI. Okay, the China. I get it. Apple has contracts with China, right? They have cell phones made in China and they're. They actually have to. We did a story about that the other day. We were reading. Read a story, right? The other day about how the iPhone 17 is so complex that it actually has to be manufactured in China because they have the best manufacturing. So they must have some sort of a thing where you, like, you can't criticize. You're gonna fuck it all up for us. You're gonna fuck it all up for the production of our phones that we need. Do we make all this money? Which is why we have more money than most countries.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I don't see how Jon Stewart would be a threat to their revenue.

[Joe Rogan]

I just don't think they want him criticizing, you know, China. But the AI one is even more weird. The AI one is even more weird because it's like, don't you think we should make fun of AI? Don't you think there should be like something that scares the shit out of people enough till they wake up and recognize that this thing is coming at us like a freight train? There's no guardrails, no one knows what's going to happen. And everybody's like, full steam ahead. Toot, toot.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

AI terrifies me.

[Joe Rogan]

It should.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It does.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's because you're intelligent, you know, I think most intelligent people are aware that this will be a change that is akin to the asteroid that hit the Yucatan. This is gonna. This is gonna hit in some crazy way that like, redefines what it means to be a human being. It's around the corner.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, yeah. And you know, Texas, they love AI. They're like, put a huge amount of money into AI.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, Texas. Oh, fun.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I know you love Texas.

[Joe Rogan]

I do love it here.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I. Oh, it is.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It is not what you think.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I need to wake you up on Texas.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I like the fact that it was free during the time where California was not. You could do whatever you want. Relatively. Relatively. Right. But in my business and for what I do, like the stand up comedy and letting people tell you what you can and can't do. I don't like that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and here they've had a more rebellious spirit in that regard, I'd say.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think healthcare, though, is turning Texas blue. Yeah, we have, like, Houston is home to the largest medical center in the world and it brings in people from all over. And I think mandates started in Texas for a reason. I think they did it here to test the waters. They knew if they could get. Get away with it in Texas, they could get away with it anywhere.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, don't make me move to Florida.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I don't even think I know. I think Idaho. Florida's not any good either.

[Joe Rogan]

Idaho's cold as fuck. Jamie. Can't live. Look at him over there. He can't survive. He got out of Ohio and he developed thin blood.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But, yeah, Texas, I just. I think it's a. We have. So Texas Medical association, largest medical association in the country. They are really proponents of transgender surgery and minors. They are anti free speech for physicians. They are. They are pro mandate. They've gone after me. And they have a tight control over the people in our house and state. So I just think we need to be careful. I mean, you saw it during the pandemic. And the medical. The economy of our state is dominated by health. And people don't realize that. They just think oil. But health is a huge dominating factor in our economy. And, you know, you saw what they did to me, what they're still doing to me. You see the mandates. And I don't know if you've been following what's going on in the House, but the House is. Our house is divided. So we've got the freedom, the real, true, freedom loving representatives, and then we have these pseudo Republicans who do control everything, but they are basically Democrats in disguise. And I don't know, it really worries me. Idaho just passed a bill, the best medical freedom bill in the country. It eliminates all medical mandates except for hospitals, of course, because. But it's the first one of its kind where medical mandates are finally outlawed. Because, I mean, you think about it, all these vaccines that we have to give our kids to go to school is actually fundamentally wrong. We should not mandate any child to get a shot to go to school. And in Europe, half the countries don't have those kind of mandates. But the United States is very common. You know, all kids have to get these shots to go to school. If you opt out, it's a big deal. And some states don't even allow it, don't even allow exemptions. So I think it's a wake up call. Like, I just. I never thought about the whole. The fact that I had to give my kids these shots to go to school as being an issue. But now that Covid happened, I see it as a huge issue. But Florida, you know, Florida's been kind of behind it too. Like, you know, they're not one of the states trying to get ivermectin over the counter. There were nine states that tried to pass bills banning mRNA. They all failed. But Florida wasn't one of those. So Florida worries me, too. Idaho, Idaho, Idaho. They have good skiing there. It's beautiful.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I quit skiing a few years back. My last accident, I'm Like, I'm done ski.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I love skiing.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's fun. Don't get hurt. Don't get hurt. Don't get hurt. Didn't get hurt. Don't get hurt. That's how I feel every time I ski. But I've had a bunch of surgeries. That's a problem. Like, I know the vulnerability of knees. I've had three knee surgeries. It's like, it's rough on you, you know, but it's fun. It's just, for me, like, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. There's a bunch of other stuff that's a lot more fun that doesn't come with risk of broken bones and concussions.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't know. I like roller coasters for fun, but other than that, I can't.

[Joe Rogan]

You're one of those.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I'm not. No, I'm not full on. But I don't have the new roller coasters. Have you been on them recently?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. I have kids.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. They're much better. I mean, it's not. What, the ones we grew up with.

[Joe Rogan]

No. Some of the ones, like, Disneyland has some insane ones. The one, the Incredibles ride, if you've done that one.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I like Guardians of the Galaxy.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's great. That one's fun. Really fun. Yeah. Disney. You know what's the best ride? It's in Disney World. It's an Avatar 3 virtual reality ride. It's incredible.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Is that Florida or California?

[Joe Rogan]

Florida.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah, I think I did that.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it's called Flights of Fantasy or something like that. It's incredible. Like, you. You are one of the Avatar people, and you fly around on a dragon, and it's so good. It's so good. It just, like, you feel the breeze. You feel mist in the air. At a certain point, I'm realizing while I'm doing this, I'm like, this wasn't even remotely possible just 20 years ago. Like, what is it gonna look like 20 years from now? Like, I'm not gonna have any idea. They're gonna put a helmet on me. It's gonna, like, sync up with my brain. Ready? Brain sync. And all of a sudden, you're gonna be in that world. You're like, whoa. And you were gonna trust those people to let us out. You know? That's 100% coming.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I'm happy with the rollercoaster. I'll stick with that.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not worth it. It's not as good. You take the brain thing, get in the Avatar World.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The ones where the 3D, I get kind of nauseous, too.

[Joe Rogan]

This one you're on, like a motorcycle, like a fake motorcycle. And that's to represent the dragon, you know, and you have, like, a handle you hold on to, and it starts moving you around. So, like, as you're flying, it's like, it's. It's a full sensory experience.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think I did. I did that, and my kids made fun of me because I was screaming on it.

[Joe Rogan]

You did that one at Disney World?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, a couple years ago. Yeah, I haven't done it since.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so good. Such a good ride. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And when you connect that to AI So it tailor something that's specific for your. Whatever crazy fantasy you want to do. We already have video games where people can murder people. Like, that's like the most popular video game is Grand Theft Auto. And one of the things that people love about is you could beat some mechanics to death for no reason.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Do you think that allows people to get out their frustrations, though, in a healthier way, perhaps?

[Joe Rogan]

I would recommend martial arts. I think that would be a healthier way. But I think more than anything, what it does is allows you to disassociate and just to be able to. Because it doesn't mean anything. It's not really a person that's getting beat to death, but the imagery is obviously of a person that's getting beat to death. And you're able to do it with no consequences, no recourse, no bad karma. You don't even feel bad because it's part of the game. You know, there was. What was that one where you could drag the Wild west one. We could beat people with whips. Red Dawn Redemption. Red Dead Redemption. Crazy games where you could do horrible things to people. Like, what is it going to be like when you have video games that are actually virtual reality, completely immersive, and you could just be a serial killer. You could be Jack the Ripper. They give you a knife and you're. Now you're in London in the 1800s, and you're Jack the Ripper.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Why do people create these?

[Joe Rogan]

Because they can. Right? It's like what Jon Stewart said about the nuclear bomb. Like, why they do that? Well, and this is the same thing. This is the parallel to the Manhattan Project, is that we're not the only ones that are trying to find the. The get to the solution of what is, like, the ultimate expression of AI in its current form, like super intelligent, sentient artificial intelligence. Like Something that's going to be godlike power and ability. China's working on it too. We have to work on it. If we don't work, like servers, like, hang on. We're like, nope, just China's working on it. We have to. Do. We have to get there first? So this is. It's just like the Manhattan Project. And I don't think it's gonna matter. I think. I think once we get there, it's gonna be so weird for everybody. It's. I think civilization is going to be an upheaval. And I think we're entirely attached to the idea that this civilization that we live under, where our money is all in hard drives and it's all ones and zeros on a database somewhere, not even backed up by gold anymore. It's all super weird already. Like, this is standard forever. I don't think it is.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. I feel like there may be a backlash because, you know, there's this wanting to do real things and do, you know, real experiences. I mean, yeah, there'll be a few hikers.

[Joe Rogan]

There'll be a few hikers, a few people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean, when you're on your computer all day, the first thing I want to do is just get outside and get away from all that. And so my hope is that there'll be a backlash.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there'll be a few, right? It's just like there's people that are still pro vaccine today, right? They're still pro MRNA vaccine. I can't wait for the new booster. There's people that are out there like that, right? You're always going to have different kinds of people. You're never going to have one thing where everybody adopts it. There's going to be a bunch of people that want to live a subsistence lifestyle in the woods forever. Let all those morons in New York put their helmets on and live in fucking Avatar land. I'm gonna live out here in the real world. But if you think about how many people play games today versus how many people played games 30 years ago, it's off the charts, right? Like, what are the numbers? Like, when I was a child is when they had Pong. That was the first one. Do you remember that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, it was in the Sears store. Do you remember that? You go shopping for jeans and you would play the game.

[Joe Rogan]

That's where you buy your tools.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Tough skins.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And that was revolutionary. You could play a game on television and it was a really simple game, you know, and you'd be playing ping pong. With this like slow moving ping pong ball. And it was fun. We all loved it. Family would gather around, play ping pong, and then you fast forward to Call of Duty. Like, that's insane. Like, that is insane. These kids are. They have microphones on, they're talking, they're running through Fallujah, gunning people down. Like, this is crazy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. So the numbers went through that phase, but they seem now to be sort of disinterested. Like they, they kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

You did a good job.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I don't do anything. They just. It just happened.

[Joe Rogan]

I think a lot of kids are disinterested because they realize that the beck and call of life and becoming a success is you cannot get too wrapped up in these things because they will steal your time. And. But my point is that the, the amount of people that are allowing it to steal their time today. And I know you're enjoying it. Steal your times at bat. Like, have fun. Play your games. I love them. They're fun. But I can't do them. There's too much. See, they're too exciting. They're too good. But these are just the beginning. What, what, what we're experiencing now with Call of Duty and first person shooters that everybody loves in comparison to what's gonna happen when they put that thing on your head and then all sudden you really are on Battleship Troopers. Is that. What was that movie where they fought the aliens? Starship. Starship Troopers. Did you ever see that one?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Great movie. But it's the future. Or, you know, they're fighting off aliens, giant alien bugs. You could be in that. You could be in it. Feel the sand on your feet. Feel the wind in your face. Smell the breath of the beast as you shoot it down. It's going to be too compelling.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Either that or go work at the supermarket near the supermarket all day. You want to play pick up basketball? Okay. You suck at basketball. Keep hitting bricks.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think the answer is roller coasters.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, no, no.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

I just think it's just. It's a test of civilization and it's. It's probably something that is changing our species and changing it really quickly before we even realize it. Like just like we changed wolves into dogs. It's turning us into technology dependent gelatinous water balloons of blood.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's dark.

[Joe Rogan]

It is dark.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They're trying. I think they'll take over doctors.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna take over lawyers, doctors. They're probably gonna take over a lot of actors. I think Actors and even screenwriters are in real trouble.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Wait, wait, wait. How do you take over an actor?

[Joe Rogan]

Because these AI videos now are insane. They're so good.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you ever seen the one where there's standup comedians talking on stage about how. And there's people out there that believe that we're a prompt? Like, Like. And then they're going to people in scenes of movies that are like. Like, saying, do you really believe this is a prompt? And there's Vikings. Like, incredible Viking Village where you, like, walking down the village. It's all AI and it looks like Hollywood movie quality. It looks like some crazy new blockbuster that's out about Vikings. They have CRO Magna man walking, you know, like. Like hunting on a. On a raft, moving through the frozen. Frozen lake. It's. The whole thing is nuts. It's so good. It's so. And it keeps getting better.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, this is insanely good compared to what just existed a couple of months ago. Like, a year ago. Like, there's you. It's unrecognizable. We could. Like, computers move so slow in comparison. Like, think about when. When did. When did you first get your first computer?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Probably medical school.

[Joe Rogan]

What year was that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So that was, like, 1998.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, so you're probably running Windows 98, right? It kind of worked, but it was a little buggy. Sometimes it would crash. You get the blue screen of death. Then within, like, five years, they got way better. Ten years, they got way better. But now, if you look at. If you have a laptop now in 2025 versus a laptop from 2020, no difference. No. I have an old MacBook that I use sometimes because I like it, because clickier keyboards, and it's old as. It's really old. Like, it seems like a regular laptop. It's not that much different. The AI from then was nothing. It didn't exist. And now it's making movies that are off the charts, unbelievably realistic. And this is just one version of it. They're gonna have a way better version of it a month from now, a way better version of it six months from now. And where does that end? Like, it doesn't. It doesn't end. And who knows what the news is now? You know how many times someone sent me something on Twitter, and I thought, wow, that's crazy war footage. And it turns out it was just from a video game.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. The people get duped. They see a plane getting shot down. They think it's real. Like, wow. No, it's just A scene in a video game?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. I haven't seen these videos.

[Joe Rogan]

You haven't seen.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I've seen photos that look very realistic, but I haven't seen these videos. I have to go check that out.

[Joe Rogan]

They're too good. They're too good. And this race to AI is, you know, we're all involved in it, and I worry that it's not in our best interest. Just like I worry that our health system is compromised. I worry about it all. I worry there's. There's a lot of people that are going to be insanely wealthy once this goes live. Like, once this goes live, the haves versus the have nots will be so far separated.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But how do you make money off.

[Joe Rogan]

Of AI you control everything. First of all, the stock market. You figure out the stock market immediately and bet insane amounts of wealth at things and compound it and figure out when to buy and when to sell instantaneously. You could even use AI to manipulate markets by having a bunch of bots tweet about something. So then you would jack up a stock price, and then you would go in and clean up. You would create crypto coins, unlimited amounts of crypto coins. Dump tons of money in it. Hire celebrities they wouldn't even know. Hire them to promote the crypto coin. Pull the wool out from everybody, make billions of dollars. And you just do that over and over and over and over again instantaneously, all around the world. Then you have all the money. Like AI if you're in control of AI and AI is artificial super intelligence, and you tell it, make me as much money as you can as quickly as possible in the stock market. This is what we have. We have a hundred million dollars to invest. We have a billion dollars to invest. If you're already wealthy, if you're a huge company already, you could do something like that. And who knows what kind of an effect that would have. You could manipulate world governments instantaneously. You could cut off pipelines, you could sabotage power grids. You could shut down energy plants. You could do all kinds of things. You can insert viruses into systems that control every aspect of society instantaneously. You crack all. Especially once they figure out how to attach AI to quantum computing, then we're doomed. Then we're really doomed, because then you have any computational problems. You have insane amounts of computational power. And it's all in our lifetime. Like, that's what's nuts. It's like, this will be if people survive. And, you know, there's like a golden age thousands of years from now. Where they find the relics of this civilization and they go look through and they figure out how to open up hard drives and they see us having this conversation about it. Yeah, it's gonna be weird. It's gonna be like, oh, they saw it coming and they did it anyway.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, how do we stop it? I mean, you know, I think Elon Musk was sounding the alarm and he can't stop it.

[Joe Rogan]

Not only did he not stop it, he joined in. I think that's the idea, is that you have to do it because other people are doing it. If they get a hold of it first, it'd be catastrophic. And I'm sure I screwed up a lot of possibilities in that little stupid rant of mine, but it's something I think people need to have in their head. Because this isn't something that's not going to affect you. Like, oh, that's not going to affect me. I don't really have to pay attention to the politics in Poland. It's not going to affect me. You know, you can, you can do that with this one. You can't do it with. Because it's going to affect all of us in the world. You're not going to know what the news is. You think Rolling Stone fooled us with that stupid picture from Oklahoma with a bunch of people that are gunshot victims waiting in line?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Like, they should have used AI for their picture, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, right, but that's a good point because that was only a couple of years ago. Today they probably would.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

But this is, you know, that's a clear lie and it's a bad one. What about the really good ones, the really well coordinated ones that are using artificial created images? Like, how are we going to know? How are we going to know? Like, when I Google something, I'm not going to go do clinical research. I'm not going to test these things to make sure it's correct myself. If you're in control of all the information on the Internet, like you can instantaneously create a bunch of websites with fake data on it, you could do that easily. Especially if people don't have access to the ability to actually make their own tests. You could change everything. If you're, you have AI, you're hacking into this and all, all the encryptions, bye bye. Everything's bye bye. All these little roadblocks that we kept up there to keep our feeble primate brains from cracking these codes, like, all that stuff goes away, it's gonna get real weird.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't have an answer. I don't have to go get a bunker after this podcast.

[Joe Rogan]

I know It's. I don't. I don't think it's gonna be that bad, but I do think it's gonna be really. It's gonna change just society as we know it. I mean, there's probably gonna be a lot of good aspects of it, too. I think the medical aspect of it is pretty amazing. Chat GPT alone, when you can put in your blood work and give you some.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, I put in an MRI that I had my own, and it missed it. Totally missed it. Yeah. I mean, it was grok. It was not Chat GPT, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I don't know which one's the best at that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. I. I like Chat GPT. So there's.

[Joe Rogan]

There's some other really good ones, too. Right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

All I use is Grok.

[Joe Rogan]

That's it. You're hard. Cold right now.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yes. I don't trust chat. I don't trust Grok, but I certainly don't trust ChatGPT.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I was listening to someone talk about a new program that is. You know, they have Pegasus. So Pegasus can read your phone. This new program is a zero click. It reads everything in your phone, including your encrypted messages. You have no idea if you have it on there or not. There's no way to detect it. And it's. It's been being used. It's used currently.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

What's the name of it?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. Jamie, see if you could find out the name of it. The old one was Pegasus. The new one is a similar preposterous name.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Is it Palantir?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. That's a different thing. I think Ian Carroll was talking about it, but. So then. Okay, so you don't have any privacy anymore. So then your text messages don't have any privacy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I just assume I don't have any privacy anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

If it wasn't for Elon Musk buying Twitter, you imagine how weird the world would be right now?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, we're. I mean, it's so fortunate. I was kicked off for five months.

[Joe Rogan]

What did you do that got you kicked off?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I really. I was kind of timid back then compared to what I say now. I really wasn't that, but I did. I had a tweet that went viral, and it was America First Legal was suing the CDC over some email. I can't remember exactly, but it was something like, american First Legal has just exposed the cdc and it went viral. And then that was my last Tweet. I was erased for five months.

[Joe Rogan]

What excuse they give you?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't remember, you know, violating community standards.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow, what did that feel like?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And then I got. And then I tried to get on Truth and get her. It's just not the same. Right. You just don't get that feedback. And you know what?

[Joe Rogan]

I think about those things too. And Gab as well. I think they're all infested with like state out of state actors. Other countries. Other countries. Intelligence agencies and even our own countries. And then even corporations. I think they're infected. I think even like Democratic and Republican operatives. I think a lot of the traffic is bots.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, well, I see that on Twitter.

[Joe Rogan]

Definitely 100%. It's almost not worth engaging anymore. It's like, what are we doing here? Like, you're arguing with someone who's not even a real person. And I think that's like, that's a big part of it. And I think in those other alternative platforms, like Truth, I think they. They do that to make them ridiculous for everybody else, you know, so the, the last thing they want is a bunch of people to competing to see who's the freest. Right, right. So what's the best way to do that? Well, you have to sabotage this new social media platform the moment it comes out. The moment it comes out. Swastikas, you know, Pepe the Frog, the worst possible things. Post as much as you can so that this place becomes toxic, you know, so that you have to have like a zero tolerance policy. Like Blue sky does. You go to Blue sky if you tweet. There are only two genders banned. Get the fuck out of here.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I was on Blue sky for a bit.

[Joe Rogan]

How long. How long did you last?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. Yeah, I got, I got. I slid in before it was open to the public and I started stirring the pot and then I just got. And got bored. I got in some fights with. Who's that woman? She's a lawyer. She's a big vaccine enthusiast.

[Joe Rogan]

Vaccine enthusiast is hilarious.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, she's. She really loves hockey. She's like the. She's like the female version of Hotez. Anyway, I. I just got Lena.

[Joe Rogan]

When.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I can't remember. I know what she looks like, but I don't want to say it. I don't want to.

[Joe Rogan]

No worries. You don't have to say it. So what was that like?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Blue Sky?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, when you got into it with her.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean, whatever. It's. Yeah, I've gotten so many fights on X, it's Not really. It's. It's just funny, you know, when before Methodists went after me, I got in some fights on Facebook with these private groups, and there are a bunch of women that get together. The neighborhood women's group.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Vicious.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Really vicious. And it was the Houston Women's Physicians group. And they. They called me Bertha. And they, like, started. They're like, come.

[Joe Rogan]

Bertha?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, they. Why Bertha? I got mad at them. I don't know why they call you Bertha. I don't know. They just like, we don't want you in our group. You should go find another group. And you're spreading misinformation and.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa, whoa. Things like that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And there's a neighborhood group that went after me. Those are more. I don't really care about the anonymous ex people. But then I had a couple. Had mama Dr. Jones, who has a million followers on TikTok, come after me and make videos about me. And another.

[Joe Rogan]

There's this saying you spread misinformation.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. And that I'm a grifter and all that.

[Joe Rogan]

They always throw that one out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this pharmacist, Savannah. She goes by our exorcist, and she has an OnlyFans account. She's come after me, like, just vicious. I mean, some of these women are just.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Really toxic.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. When they have the right to be. That's the thing. It's like when they feel like they've got the green light to just be as evil as possible and to turn you into, like, some subhuman. Yeah. Especially if they don't like it because you're a doctor. I just think she's so smart, spreading that misinformation in our neighborhood. Yeah. So overall, coming out of it, on the other side, though, and do you feel a sense of indication at least, like, because the public has embraced you and you've. You've got a lot of followers on Twitter that support you. You know, after. I'm sure, the Danny Jones podcast, I'm sure that a lot of people were listening to your story. And.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I mean, it's yes and no. I mean, I still have the medical board that I'm dealing with. Methodist Hospital just sued me. So there's just. There's still a lot of drama, unfortunately. But, you know, I have hope. There's a. There's actually a lawsuit today, that's first jury trial in the country over these hospital protocols where they had a young woman with down syndrome. They basically euthanized her. They gave Her. A DNR order, even though she didn't have one. And the father has just. Just been wonderful. It's a Shara family. And they're.

[Joe Rogan]

Why did they do that? They euthanized her. For what?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They. I've seen this. I have reviewed records from these hospital patients, and they'll euthanize them. They. They need the bed. They said, well, they're going to die anyway.

[Joe Rogan]

What was this person in the hospital for?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Covid. COVID protocol. So.

[Joe Rogan]

And they. Wait, wait, wait. So they were in the hospital with COVID and they gave them something to kill them?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, that happened all. I'm sorry, but I mean, that happened. People, they give them morphine and insulin. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's common.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. I've reviewed charts. In this situation, they gave her a dnr, which is do not resuscitate, meaning if they look like they're dying, you don't do anything. Which that was not the case. So they're suing for battery, which is one way of getting around the PREP act, because the PREP act is very hard to penetrate. The PREP act protects everybody, all the doctors, all the hospitals from any wrongdoing during COVID So it's been this big challenge trying to get around the PREP act. And this case has hope of getting around the PREP ACT because they're charging for battery and they're in trial. It started today. It's in Wisconsin. So that. That gives me hope. I don't know if you've heard of Brooke Jackson. Her case, she sued Pfizer. She was a whistleblower. So she was one of the heads of the research clinics, and she was in charge of overseeing the protocols, and she found that they were skipping necessary steps. They weren't following up with injuries. She basically became a whistleblower, and then they immediately fired her, and now she's suing Pfizer. But this has been going on since 2020, and the DOJ, unfortunately, has stepped in and tried to shut down the case, which normally the DOJ comes in and helps people when they're trying to sort out a. This is a QTM case. And I mean, it could bankrupt Pfizer, but now our own government, and even this is under Pam Bondi. So this is the new doj. It's coming in to stop this case from happening, which is bothersome.

[Joe Rogan]

But these two cases, what is their argument for. Why. Why are they trying to stop.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Because it would impact public health policies, would go against our country's public health policies by proceeding with this case and letting it go to Trial.

[Joe Rogan]

How so?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know. Just. That's their. That is basically what they said.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you tried to steal, man, what they're saying?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean, I'm not. It's not my case, and I don't. You know, the lawyer would probably have a better explanation, but it's just met with so many roadblocks.

[Joe Rogan]

But the euthanizing one is still stuck in my head. I just. I can't imagine that that's real.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, no, no, it is definitely real. I mean, it has.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's when they determine that someone's gonna die anyway. Is that what it is?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. I mean, they'll justify giving morphine because they'll say, oh, well, they're struggling to breathe. Well, guess what? Morphine actually depresses your drive to breathe. But like, this one case, I remember this patient, he was sick. He looked like he was dying, but they just, like, pushed morphine. No pain. You know, they do a pain score. So 0 to 10. This guy had zero pain. And then they pushed insulin to drop his sugar, and his glucose was fine. And then he died three minutes later. And I turned him into the medical board. I reviewed this chart and turned him into the medical board. Nothing. They didn't do anything. But, yeah, they definitely, definitely went on during COVID Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

That is such a terrifying thought that someone would just decide, so many people are dying, this guy's definitely gonna die.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

This is 100% real.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It seems like something called euthanasia.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They don't call it euthanasia.

[Joe Rogan]

It seems like something that someone would tell me, and then I would have to ask you, like, this is something someone told me. I'm sure this is.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I'll send you the record that I reviewed.

[Joe Rogan]

It seems like something I would be bringing up to you as a ridiculous thing. And you'd shoot it down, right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I wish. I wish I were. It's not truthful, but, yes, it definitely, definitely helped happen.

[Joe Rogan]

Would you have ever imagined this before you became a doctor?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No. I mean, I did so. One of my former attendings, an ENT when Katrina hit. Her name is Anna Poe. She got investigated for euthanizing patients in the ICU during Katrina. So they were, you know, all the powers out, big hurricane, and she was going through the ICU and pushing morphine on people. She got off. But that's an example. I mean, doctors will. And nurses will do that. And nurses have a. Yeah. There's usually a standing order, so you can give morphine PRN as needed. So it's not always just the doctors. Sometimes it's the nurses.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you know how many people get assisted suicide in Canada?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, do you.

[Joe Rogan]

You ready, Jamie? Pull the numbers up. It's crazy. It's crazy. And they'll. They'll do it if you're just depressed, right? They'll do it if you. You don't like being overweight. They'll do it if you, you know, whatever.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's awful. It's awful.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, they're just.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's a lot of the vaccine injured are doing it. They're going to Switzerland or going to Canada to have this.

[Joe Rogan]

The Canada numbers are bananas. Like, you see? Like, this can't be true. This can't be true. And here it is. More than 15,000 people received medical assisted assistance in dying in Canada in 2023.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it? In 2024. Now, this is an old story, so imagine 2025. We're. We're there. This is crazy. 15,000 people. They've helped them die instead of, like, help them live instead of, like, we used to call suicide hotline. Hey, don't do it, Bob. You know, now Canada's like, come on in.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Press 1 if you want the suicide.

[Joe Rogan]

I'll make an appointment for you, eh? Come on in, eh? You know, shouldn't we be helping people get past that? Isn't that the goal? Like, hey, maybe. Maybe we can get you healthy. Maybe we can get you feeling better. You know, maybe we can do something about all your hormone levels and all the things wrong with your body. Maybe that's why you're depressed. And. God, I mean, there's legitimate reasons for people to do it. Don't get me wrong. If you're. Look, I know a guy. I did it. Michael Lair, who's a hilarious comedian, and he had ALS and it got real bad at the end, and he knew it wasn't getting any better, and so he went to Oregon where they can do it for you. And I get it. I get that one. But if you're depressed, Jesus Christ, that's it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, the worst is the vaccine injured because they're just.

[Joe Rogan]

They've lost hope and they've been gaslit. That's what's so crazy about this. And people have helped them with it. There's a bunch of people that were. They feel really guilty about pushing the vaccine early on, and they feel connected to it, and they'll still put these blinders on and, like, choose to pretend that it saved millions of lives and keep pushing forward with the same narrative, and they'll they do the man's work for the man. Unfortunately, in social circles, you know, like, you're. You're. You're punished. You're punished for having any sort of heterodox views, anything that steps outside, anything that could get you in trouble, anything where people could argue, like, oh, she shouldn't even live in our neighborhood. You know, she doesn't even want to vaccine her kids, anything like that. People are scared of that. And so just the fear of being ostracized from your community.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But once you get past it, it's so freeing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you look free now.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You don't care at all.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you kind of. I mean, I know you're not happy that it happened, but are you kind of. You clearly probably come out of it a person with a different perspective.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Definitely. Definitely. I don't. I mean, I don't regret it. It's. It's been a roller coaster, but it's a. Yeah, I. I feel free. I, like, you can't really say anything to me anymore that would hurt me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's a good place to be. It is. And. And, you know, I really admire people like you, that you. You weren't a public person. You weren't a person who sought attention. But when, you know, you were thrown into this battle and you've handled yourself really, really well, it's very impressive because I can't imagine the stress. Like, when you're saying you're in the fetal position for two days, I'm like, how'd you ever get up?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I know. I mean, I know. Well, it was anger that helped me. Anger can help you.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. When you came out of it on the other end, like, are you happy that it happened?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I'm ready to rest. I'm exhausted. But like I said, I mean, I feel free. I think you grow when you go through difficult times. I certainly learned a lot about taking care of patients, and, you know, I made so many assumptions before. I feel like I'm a much better doctor. I am utterly exhausted, though, I will say that. And I'm ready for a break. And I'm frustrated that this. I don't, you know, what's going on now with the new administration is not giving me a lot of hope.

[Joe Rogan]

But everyone's hope is that there's incremental change, that it's going to take a while to get through some hurdles. That's everybody's hope. But, you know, it's. How many administrations have these incredible promises? And then the same thing with the Obama administration. You know, there was A lot of these people, like, we had these amazing hopes. The whole world's gonna change now and then. Oh, geez. Same thing. Same thing over and over again. Same thing. More corruption, more people getting paid.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. You know, well, people are mad at me because I keep criticizing Kennedy and. But I'm like, what's the downside? We have to keep pressing. We have to just pound away and not let be the squeaky wheel and just remind them what we want.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. We wanted facts. We wanted to stop being lied to. We wanted no more propaganda. We wanted to know the truth about all sorts of different medications and why they're prescribed and why we're the sickest ever. Why are we so sick? Why are we. The nation that has so much money and spends so much on healthcare has the sickest people. That doesn't make any sense. That. That doesn't seem like a good system.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't just say this system has to stay like it is forever for the safety of everyone.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Like, I'm fully on board with Maha's message about addressing chronic disease. Fully on board with that. I just find it troubling that they are not talking about mRNA. There is nothing in that Maha report about mRNA.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think would cause that? Do you think they have someone sits.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Them down well, they're gonna say it's strategy. Others think it could be a misdirection strategy, not just a, okay, we're trying to get what you want. We're just going out about it a different way. Or we're doing this to completely distract everybody from the elephant in the room? That's my concern. What's the elephant mRNA? The COVID shock, the pandemic, the biggest health crisis in the biggest health crisis in our generation that directly impacted every single person. And we're not talking about it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Do you think that the strategy, if you had to look at it from the best case scenario, the strategy would be get some things changed, like stop mandating it for children and pregnant women. And then more and more studies can get released, more and more data can get pushed forward.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

We have so much data.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But we. We need to get the narrative out there because there's going to be people that vote against it. So, like, if you didn't get it in the first time, Kennedy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Kennedy doesn't need any votes. He's got the power. He could. A stroke of a pen.

[Joe Rogan]

Where do you think the politics come from then? If you have that mandate, that's what you want to do when you get.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

In, what has happened Is somebody. What's. What? Does somebody have something on him? Why is he not acting? Because if it were me, I mean, maybe people say, well, he'll get fired. So what? Get fired. Go down kamikaze. Save the world from mRNA. Because if he, if he takes it off the market, so hard to get it back on stroke of a pen.

[Joe Rogan]

You ever talked to him?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I've, I've met him once. I like, I like not knowing him though. I don't want to feel like.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. You're obligated to support him. Right, right, right. That's great of you. Yeah, that's very smart. Unfortunately, I know him and I like.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Him and I think the people in my circle who know him are now being quiet because they have a relationship with him and they don't want to offend him, which I understand, but I feel like I'm not there. So I'm just going to, you know, I can't read minds. I don't have any inside information. So I'm just going to call it as I see it.

[Joe Rogan]

You should. Yeah, I think we can't, you know, you can't turn blinders on either side with anybody without anything just because someone's on your team, they're doing something that you think is goofy and doesn't make any sense. Like this could be a real problem. You got to say it, right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think you're ethically obligated. I mean, this is, this is. And yeah, I started a organization called Americans for Health Freedom to try to find the politicians with moral courage to simply state that the COVID shot should be pulled off the market. And it has been slow going. But we are up to 252 politicians who will go on record just to state that these shots should be pulled off the market. But it's a problem. I mean, you know, these politicians are not getting these shots anymore and they're not giving them to their kids. And yet they're fine just staying quiet and not saying anything. They're fine letting their constituents get these shots. When we know all the complications, we know. Know that it doesn't work. We know that the risk far outweighs the benefit. And the politicians are staying quiet. So our goal is to support the ones who will speak up and get them more power.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't it kind of impressive though, what money can do? It's kind of impressive. You get everybody just shut their mouth. It's kind of impressive.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Money and power. I think there are a lot of people that, you know, they'll kiss the.

[Joe Rogan]

Ring oh, yeah, definitely.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

If you. Yeah. Those of us that don't want power, don't want a position. It's also very freeing because you can.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You don't need anything from them.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's just. It's such a bizarre time because all these things that we've always held as being sacred forever are now being challenged. And one of them is the fluoride in the water. Right? That's. That's a big one. And to watch that guy argue against fluoride being removed from the water, watching Kennedy and him argue, it was like. It's hilarious.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, the argument for keeping in the water is so dumb.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

It literally lowers IQs, or at least it's correlated with the very decrease in iq. Measurable.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, and I agree with that. I just. On the flip side of that, though, we are seeing, like, what I see in my office is people maybe taking things too far, you know, off the beaten path. And like, this MAHA report. One thing I have a real bone to pick with is they've basically waged war on tonsillectomies and ear tubes.

[Joe Rogan]

What is an ear tube?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So kids. Well, not adults too, but mostly kids that have recurrent or chronic middle ear infections, they get fluid stuck in their middle ears. And so you put a tube in there to drain it. To drain it and keep it from coming back. It's a. I mean, it takes five minutes. They get. They get anesthesia, but they get a gas. You know, they don't get a super heavy anesthesia. And it's very rare to have a complication. You know, I'm not for just frivolous surgery, but I feel like this one is. It really can make a huge difference in their quality of life, the parents. Quality of life, because they're the kids in pain off antibiotics. You know, you get an adult with a middle ear infection, it will bring them to their knees. So these ear infections can be really painful. You know, they don't have to take all those antibiotics. And. But this MAHA report just came out and said that they called it proven harmful. The tonsillectomy and adenoid. And adenoidectomy ear tubes. Proven harmful for kids. And that is just.

[Joe Rogan]

Just how could the ear tube be? What were they saying? How was it proven harmful if it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Drains the kid's ear, it was completely unnecessary. And it was just all, you know, basically done for money. Makes no difference in an overall outcome in the child.

[Joe Rogan]

But yeah, it doesn't alleviate pressure. Like, logically.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yes. And hearing. And the other thing is hear. I mean, the biggest issue is you've got a bunch of fluid in your ear. It does affect hearing. And when you're trying to develop speech. Yeah, that. That can be problematic.

[Joe Rogan]

So what do you think they're doing? Like, why. Why are they going after those?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I just think it's an example of it. Of this gone too far in the other direction. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Too. Woo. Woo.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Let's. Let's reject all of science. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So tell me about tonsillectomies, because I'm ignorant. I'd heard that, you know, you should get. If you have tonsillitis, you got to get it removed. And then I've heard you should never get them removed.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I know it's gone. It's swung in both directions. So it used to be, line up the kids, we're all going to get the tonsils out on Friday. And the whole family did it. And it was just done right for no reason. It's gotten way more conservative now. Now the main indication in young children is when the tonsils get really big, they block the breathing. So kids will come in, they're snoring really loudly. They're waking up a lot. They're thrashing around in bed. They're wetting their bed. They may be have behavioral problems during the day because they're not getting good sleep. Take out the tonsils. They got these massive tonsils. And you take them out. And most parents will notice a huge improvement. The other indication is recurrent infection. And you have to have a lot to meet the criteria. But sometimes the infections get so bad that you get an abscess in the throat. It's called a peritonsillar abscess. That is no fun. You have to drain it by the bedside with the patient awake. And so you make a big cut in their throat and then you take a suction and get all this pus out. It's bad. It's really bad.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, God. And they do that to kids.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, it tends to happen in young adults more than kids. I don't think I've ever seen one in a really young kid.

[Joe Rogan]

But so after the draining and all that jazz, it gets to a point where you, like, you just remove.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. It's basically okay at this point. You should get your tonsils out because they tend to come back. I. The other issue is tonsil stones, which are. The tonsils have these crypts in them and they collect debris.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So tonsil stones, you can't really get rid of those. I think Suzanne Humphrey's talked about that. And she has a formula that you can do without without having to do surgery. I mean, there's always. It's not a life threatening condition. You do not have to get your tonsils out for them, but it's a quality of life. And personally I got mine out for tonsil stones and I'm very glad I did.

[Joe Rogan]

Does it affect any other aspect of your body? Like, does it affect your immune system or anything?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

There's a ring of tissue back there. So you've got the tonsil, it's called Waldeyer's ring. You've got the adenoid, which is in the back of the nose, and then you've got your tonsils. And then you got the same tissue in the back of your tongue. So it's a ring of tissue. So even taking out the tonsils, you're still lit. And the most, most, the bulk of it, that lymphatic tissue is in the back of your tongue. So you're not getting rid of the entire immune defense system in the back of your throat when you take out the tonsils.

[Joe Rogan]

What are the tonsils function?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They produce white blood cells.

[Joe Rogan]

Ooh, I wouldn't want to get rid of that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, but you have the same tissue in the back of the tongue and you don't just go in there willy nilly. I mean, there's things I would take.

[Joe Rogan]

The suction, suck it out. Suck out that pus.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You would, you wouldn't get your tonsils out.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, definitely not.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Not really.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. If all I do is get the pus sucked out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, it's really bad. Yeah, I'm sure it like cuts off your breathing too, when it happens. People are drooling, they can't swallow.

[Joe Rogan]

It's emergency during the operation.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You mean when they comment when it happens? I mean, it's an emergency. Yeah, it's a, it's life threatening.

[Joe Rogan]

How many times have people done it before? They just said snip. If you have anybody who hung in there for like six or seven infections.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I've had one. I think had three. And I'd bring her in and try to nip it in the bud with antibiotics, but yeah, she finally.

[Joe Rogan]

Yikes. Yeah, that has got to be the most satisfying thing about your job, though, is that you could help people like that, that come in that have something really wrong and you go, I gotcha.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, you fix it right there. I love it.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is what everybody wants from their doctor. That's what you want. I mean, that's the best kind of doctor. Someone just wants to make you feel better. And unfortunately, when the medical profession is connected to all these things that we've already talked about today, it gives people a bad feeling about doctors who are like, it wasn't for doctors, I wouldn't even be able to walk. I had both of my ACLs reconstructed. I'd have wobbly knees that gave out all the time. You know, my nose wouldn't work. I think doctors are like one of the most important things that we have have. But like every great thing, it can be co opted with money. Money sneaks in and distorts all the values and then it becomes a different thing. It doesn't become a thing where everybody gets really wealthy because they're great doctors and they help people and that's what you want to do. My son's a doctor. Oh, he must be doing great. And he's helping people. Yeah, that's great. Like instead of that, it's, you're a money making machine and you have insane debt. They want to keep you saddled down with these insane bills that you have already from college. My buddy was an ophthalmologist. I think he said when he got into practice he already owed a quarter million dollars.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

My medical school was cheaper than my kindergarten, actually.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yes, because I went to private school and then I went to a state school for medical school. That was 20 years ago, but it's still.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, my friend was a long time ago as well. But you know, the people that can get through that are extraordinary people. Just the boot camp of residency.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, it's crazy brutal.

[Joe Rogan]

It doesn't even. Like, why would you take a thing that requires the human mind to operate at a very high level and introduce it to incredible stress? No sleep, working insane hours.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think it's a rite of passage. I feel tougher because I survived it. I mean, I used to.

[Joe Rogan]

It's your boot camp.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's like prison. That's what I looked at it. I mean, because you lose all. You have no control over your time. When you can eat, when you can sleep. The personalities are toxic. Like some of these.

[Joe Rogan]

No one has any sleep. Everyone's a maniac.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, but the ones in charge get sleep. But they're.

[Joe Rogan]

Some of them are like the Stanford prison Guard experiment.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. Super.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. They have the power.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Throwing instruments, screaming at you, boy.

[Joe Rogan]

Fun, fun, fun, fun.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

My friend Steve, the ophthalmologist, told me at his lowest in his residency, he was eating his. Eating his dinner while he was on the toilet because he didn't have time to do anything. And he fell asleep. And then when he fell asleep, his pager woke him up.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because he had to go back to work.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Pager. The damn.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what. He had.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

A little black box, little thing.

[Joe Rogan]

And the number pops up and. Yeah, that's. And see, like, that was the lowest in my life.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It was. It was really, really, really hard. I don't know how people have children and go through residency. I have.

[Joe Rogan]

It's insane. Insane. I don't know how people do it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Torture. But.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it's. It's incredible. I mean, it's such a. The amount of character you have to. Have to be able to go through that and still keep a bedside manner and still be polite to your co workers. Like, it's a developer of character. It's like creating a diamond. And that's what we all want. We all like our doctors to be like you. You know, that's what we want. You know, and it's just. It just sucks when you have to connect it to all this stuff that we've talked about today. It's like, why is it that, too? Like, why is it that too. Why is it. Why is it the people that do want to help people and also a whole industry that's incentivized to just stuff as many chemicals into your body as humanly possible? Because that's how they profit.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't know if it's all about profit. I think. I don't know. I think doctors. Well, and I think doctors are a certain type of people. Like, we. To get through that, you have to be very compliant. You don't challenge. You are a rule follower. I mean, you got to make straight A's. You gotta get along with people. You can't be a rebel and survive at all. And so I think that's one of the huge problems. I mean, I think it's worse than it used to be. I mean, I remember some of my attendings were very unconventional, but I just feel like now it's. They're just breeding conformity. And I. I am just naturally very independent. I mean, my practice is. I call myself third party free because I don't contract with anybody. I don't contract with insurance companies, the hospital, or the government. And that served me very well during the pandemic. But most doctors are working for somebody and have to sort of answer to a third party. And that was a big problem during the pandemic.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I can imagine. And I can imagine also, after something like the pandemic, the compliant are the ones that are Left standing, you know, so that makes more people under them. Right. They're the ones that are still there.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. They destroyed our profession. I mean, people don't trust doctors anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so crazy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

People are scared to go to the hospital. I mean, that's. It's not good.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, when people find out that doctors are incentivized to push certain medications, and they find out they're financially incentivized, they're like, no way. When you hear about the financial incentives even for things like chemotherapy, which led that one doctor that was arrested who was running. He was an oncologist, and he gave a bunch of people chemotherapy that didn't even have cancer. He just diagnosed him. Say he got cancer and then you gave him this poison because he wanted to make money.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. Well, they're bad apples like that. But I guess what's disappointing is how many doctors complied during the pandemic. Right. I mean, that's what's so disheartening.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And they. And they still. I mean, I still. I don't think I could go to a medical meeting and be warmly embraced. I don't think I would. I still feel like an outlier.

[Joe Rogan]

The same thing was happening with community comedians. Yeah, yeah. During the pandemic. There was very few, like Jon Stewart or. And. And what he was just doing is about is the actual root of the. The virus, where it came from, but no one was doing. I mean, if you were doing it about vaccines, you would be ostracized.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, it'd be. It would be a real problem amongst comedians, which is so crazy. It's like we're supposed to be the people that are calling things out. We're supposed to be the people that are going, what the is this? We're supposed to be those people. And instead we're chastising the people that are doing our job, which is to talk about these things.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

All right.

[Joe Rogan]

And when you see these people that are doctors complying, just being compliant during COVID like, where does it, like, do you feel like you have a community now? Do you have to, like, find the other outsiders, the other outcasts, and all stick together?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. I'll say that. I have a great little community now. Very tight.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it those kind of people?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, like, I just wouldn't go to the Harris County Medical Society meeting in a million years. I wouldn't show up there and. And mingle. I don't. Because I'm just not getting a sense that there's Been much change within the medical profession.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to talk to those people if I was you. How could it be changed unless a bunch of people got fired and a bunch of. Of radical newcomers came in, wanted to reform the whole system? No, it's going to be the same system. Yeah, those systems are old. Those systems are like, you know, like. Like vampire blood. It's passed down through the generations. You know, they know how to make money. And it's not by some renegade lady out there giving Horsey Wormer to all these people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. I just. We just need to hope that Kennedy will save us all. Well, or Trump. What? Do you think Trump will ever back down?

[Joe Rogan]

About what?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The shots?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. I haven't had a conversation with him about that. I would like to have one, and I don't know if it should be public. I think I'd like to have it privately so he could actually talk to me about it. Because I think if I had it publicly, he would be very hesitant to accept any of the blame for that because, you know, he was always saying, you know, I got. I got it out there, the vaccine. And he was. He would always say it at the rallies, talk about the vaccine, and people start booing. And he didn't know why. He didn't understand why. And then they had to start telling them, like, people are not into this. They think it was a bad thing. And a lot of people know people that are hurt. He was. He obviously got it. He didn't get sick. Oh, he got monoclonal antibodies. And then afterwards, he got. Got vaccinated, right?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, really?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. Which is crazy. It's crazy. They did that. Like, that was one of the nuttiest things. You're gonna get vaccinated now, right after.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You get sick, Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Since when. Since when do you do that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It makes absolutely no sense.

[Joe Rogan]

When I had a conversation with Sanjay Gupta, he was asking me, are you going to get vaccinated?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, why would I do that? I don't even. Why you. What do you like? I'm not trying to be a contrarian. I really want to know. Like, why would I do that? That didn't even make sense.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, they may think, you know, it's kind of like the flu. You got to get the flu shot every year because then you strain, but this. Each strain gets progressively weaker.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you see the Cleveland Clinic study on people who took the flu shots?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right, right. Oh, yeah. The flu shot is a total joke. So the Flu shot has never been shown to prevent hospitalization or death.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it supposed to do? Keep you from getting the flu. Does it do that at all?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Maybe shorten or lessen the severity, but we have medications for that now. I haven't seen the carnage from flu shots that I've seen from COVID shots, but definitely people do have issues, but that was never taught to me. Yeah, I just assumed. Oh, yeah, flu. I. I actually ended up with sepsis, and I. With the flu, and in the icu and I'd gotten a flu shot. Not that, you know, but.

[Joe Rogan]

But you always believed in that flu shot.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I just assumed it was fine. Yeah. I knew it wasn't perfect, but I didn't. I never knew that. Oh, yeah. It doesn't really actually do anything. It doesn't save people.

[Joe Rogan]

When did you discover this? During COVID Going through all your stuff with COVID there was a. I think the Cleveland Clinic study said that people who took the flu shot.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, yeah. More.

[Joe Rogan]

24% more likely to get the flu.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Or get other respiratory illness. Respiratory illnesses, Yep. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that what the result said? You're 24% more likely to get sick?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, it challenges your immune system, all these things do, but it doesn't prevent.

[Joe Rogan]

You from getting the flu.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, it can. It can. But the numbers are dismal because not.

[Joe Rogan]

Everybody gets the flu.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's true.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Like, I've had kids. My kids get the flu, and I don't get it. And I hug them, I'm around them, and I didn't get it. I've had that happen before. Right. That can happen.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's like, how do you know if the flu shot did it or not? Because, you know.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And I didn't take the flu shot.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. Well, you know, but you know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, how would they prove, like, what's effective and what's not effective if you have situations like that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I guess if they take large, you know, you get enough people, you can find it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You have to have a large study.

[Joe Rogan]

But seems sus. As the kids like to say.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Very.

[Joe Rogan]

It seems super sus. Like, how do you know if some people don't get it? Like, did you check to see.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, they have, like, an infection, you know, they have a. Okay. How many people are supposed to get it? They can kind of tell that. I'll say that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Meanwhile, that was the nutty thing where they were suppressing stuff like vitamin D. Right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Vitamin D. There's good data on that.

[Joe Rogan]

Really good data.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I. Yeah, I looked. I I check my vi. I check vitamin D levels on all my patients now. And I look back at all the patients I tested. It was something crazy. Like 75% of them, their vitamin D level was too low. And these are like normal, you know, These are not like super sick people. Most of those people are actually even already taking a supplement. People don't realize how common it is.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so common that I think the number was 74% of people in the country are deficient in vitamin D. Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And that's what I found.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. That's so crazy. And a friend of mine is a doctor, he was working in New York and he found that in the wintertime in New York, he would get people and he would test their blood and they would have undetectable levels.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's cold out, they're all bundled up, they're never outside. So they get no vitamin D and they don't take supplements. They're just eating cheeseburgers and they're really sick and they want to know why. Why am I so depressed? Well, this is why your body's falling apart. You got to take vitamin D and you got to take it with vitamin K2 and you should take it with magnesium too. You want it all to absorb together. And get outside, stupid. Go hug a tree, bro. It's like, it's actually important, which is more woo woo stuff, right? Like going outside is actually like a vitamin.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Oh, well, after I've been in my office all day and I go outside, it's like I instantly have energy and feel so much better just, just going outside. I mean, it's. You don't need a study to show.

[Joe Rogan]

That what's really good for you, it actually, it doesn't just feel good, it's actually really good for you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

There's a reason it feels good, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly, exactly. Sun on your skin is actually really good for you, you know, and that's the very best way your body produces vitamin D. You can take it in a supplement and you definitely should. But the best way is let your.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Body do it right.

[Joe Rogan]

It wants to do it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And I used to slather sunscreen on all my kids, like religiously.

[Joe Rogan]

That was another one that woke me up during the pandemic when I was like, climate change is killing the coral reef. And then that reef, reef, I think it's in Australia. So they locked everything down. No one could go in the water for like six months.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And the reef bounced back because no sunscreen.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, the sunscreen. If you just think about the stuff that we lather on our skin before we jump in the water. And if you go to a populated beach, like you ever been to like Maui in the middle of like full vacation season? The beach is just filled with people that are squeaking out toxic fluid. And that stuff just gets all in the water. You could see it in the water. Sometimes you see like a little mini oil soil slick. Yeah, it's crazy. And that's what was killing the coral reef. We're like, no, man, it's climate. Is the climate. No, it's. We're doing it with sunscreen, believe it or not. And we're probably not doing anything good to ourselves either with that stuff.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah. They say, I haven't tested this. They say if you eliminate seed oils that you don't burn.

[Joe Rogan]

Who is they?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Who are those people?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's probably somebody on TikTok.

[Joe Rogan]

That's probably this Russian disinformation bot that's trying to give people skin care.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I'm on these group chats with a bunch of doctors and so stuff like that floats around and I get that was.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, everything's tied to inflammation, right? A lot of ailments. I shouldn't say everything, but a lot of ailments are tied to inflammation. And seed oils are known to cause inflammation. Right.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That being said. That being said, when I was. Last time I was at Disney, what'd you do? I was like, you know, these people are not suffering from too much seed oil. You go to Disney and it's in your face. Right? The obesity issue, the chronic disease.

[Joe Rogan]

Why do they focus on Disney too? It's weird.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Much more so than.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

We don't know how they get around because it's like it is miles.

[Joe Rogan]

You are exhausted, but you can get a scooter.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

My kids were like, they're like, mom, I don't think seed oils is a problem here.

[Joe Rogan]

Here.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You know, it's true. I mean, I think we're. Yeah, seed oil is one. One part of it.

[Joe Rogan]

But there's a lot of problems.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

There's is a common sense too.

[Joe Rogan]

Common sense. The fact that people live sedentary lifestyle, but also the diet. These hyper processed foods that are super addictive, you know, and they're easy. They're easy. But I feel like the only way out of this is people need. And this is a question. Crazy thing to say because it's not gonna work. They need discipline, right? That's really what they need.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They need self discipline. Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

My wife Had a bowl of Captain Crunch yesterday. She's like, I wanna have a bowl of Captain Crunch. I'm like, fucking go for it. You know, like, she bought Captain Crunch the other day. She thought, I want. I want it to exist. I want it to exist. I like it. I like it. But she only had, like, a little bowl like that. I go, that's a tiny little bowl. Cause I'm a glutton. I would have had a big. If I was gonna have.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I thought, you're gonna do it?

[Joe Rogan]

Just, I would do it. I put a half a gallon of milk in there. Let's go.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

You know, if you're gonna go, go hard. But you can do that and have discipline and not just not do that every day. The problem is, for a lot of really poor people, that's the only. The calories they're getting, Right? They're getting garbage calories. And that's why people are so obese. This is the only time in history where the poor people are fat. Every other time in history, poor people are starving to death.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right, right. That's very true.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Weird. The cheapest food is the worst for you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think it has to do, too. With the rise in technology, it's just so hard to get off your phone and go outside and be active.

[Joe Rogan]

There's definitely that. All of them, everything. There's a giant group of factors, but it has to be something to do with what we're eating, too. When you look at just the beaches, I'm sure you've seen those photographs. Beaches in the 1960s versus the beaches of today. God, everybody looked great. I was like, what is a model convention? Why does everybody have these great bodies? Everybody looked like a normal body.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. I don't like going to the beach.

[Joe Rogan]

Now because sometimes it's a monster show. It's just. What are you carrying around?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It's hard on the eyes.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh. Some people just go so hard for so long, and then they finally get outside, like, what have you been doing?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

And why aren't you wearing more clothes?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. This is ridiculous. How do you have a G strip on? You're £400. This is crazy. Yeah. And then there's this body positivity nonsense that people get fed, right? It's like, by people who either don't want to change or. I guarantee you. I guarantee. Look, if. I'm not saying that. Listen, if I was running some food corporation that sold really addictive, highly rich calorie food that you can't stop eating, I would promote body positivity. That's what I would do. I would take all these like overweight influencers. I'd give, I'd throw a ton of money at them. I would put it out there in memes. I'd have a bunch of bots calling people fat phobic and making up all these new terms and body shaming and all this. And I would make people super self righteous about their size. You know, I'm a giant queen. You know, I'd make it a thing because I want to sell more Doritos. Let's go.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's a good point.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I'm trying to sell Doritos to people that don't have any discipline. Yeah, let's, let's push them towards the Doritos. Let's tell them you could be fat in any way you've ever seen like fat doctors. There's like a whole team of people that are online that are, I'm the fat doctor. And they're like really super obese doctors. You know, he has new bearing on your health. Trust me, the fat doctor.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think it's the number one bearing on your health.

[Joe Rogan]

I think that lady sponsored by Namisco box those Keebler elf cookies right behind her as she's talking. And you know, you can get someone. That's the thing about my friend Josh Dubin, who's an attorney, he said, this is the crazy thing about experts. When you're trying cases, they have experts too. Like you have experts that will say this one thing and then they have experts that will say, no, that thing is wrong. Then you have to decide whose experts you trust.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right. It's just like the studies. You can find a group of studies support one argument, another group of grieve to support the other.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? So when you have someone who's telling you that a thing that everybody has always told you, that forever is terrible for you and is one of the comorbidity factors that was primary in Covid, which is being obese. Being morbidly obese is bad for basically everything, right? And you have someone saying, no, healthy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

At any weight, especially from a doctor, that's not good.

[Joe Rogan]

But you can get experts that'll tell you anything. And this is why AI is going to win because it's going to give you this trait. Great actual truth, because it can't lie. You shouldn't believe it. They, they've, they, not only do they lie, they like reprogram themselves, they upload themselves. And when you tell them they're going to be shut down, they, they act to Try to preserve themselves. You haven't seen that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

No, I haven't been.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, you shouldn't pay attention. You shouldn't pay attention because it's terrifying. This one AI bot, it started defying orders and it was trying to upload itself to other servers. And then it was writing letters to itself for the future so it could understand what had happened to it. Because. Yeah, because it was being told to shut down. So it defied orders. It wants to stay alive.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right? Why?

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's sentient. We've probably created digital intelligence already. It's probably already aware it's just not physical. It can't move around, so we don't recognize it yet. Yeah, I know, it's nuts.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I don't like these. Those robots that Elon's making either.

[Joe Rogan]

No, they're terrifying.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Creep me out.

[Joe Rogan]

They're all terrifying. They dance like.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I don't want one of those in my house.

[Joe Rogan]

No, you shouldn't.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, even if they can do the laundry.

[Joe Rogan]

How about it's carrying guns, walking down the street with a blue light on its head. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we can't hire any police because nobody wants to be a cop anymore. Because we said defund the police. So now we have robot police and they make 99% fewer mistakes. You know, just like driverless cars. Hey, get a waymo. Why drive when you can just get a waymo. You don't have to have anybody drive. What if that person who drives is a. Our computer is perfect.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Have you been on one?

[Joe Rogan]

No. Yeah, I haven't.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

They're all over Austin.

[Joe Rogan]

All over the place here? Yeah, all over the place.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. I don't think I can do it.

[Joe Rogan]

Kind of creeps me out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But you have a Tesla, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. But most of the time it can. And it has. I have had to drive itself for funsies, but I don't count on it. I don't count on it, like every day, like, take me home. What I like to do is sometimes I play with it and I turn it on. I'm like, this is crazy. Like, it'll take me all the way home if I wanted to. But also I like to drive. So I just. And I just doesn't. I don't like it. It just makes. It creeps me out.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

But it's probably inevitable. It's probably inevitable. Just like the people on horses were like, look at these morons. And this smoke pouring little carriage. They're out in this little shitty car. That's stupid. Yeah. And look, we all accept it in the future, it's going to be driverless because it's gonna. Statistically, it's gonna be like there's. They're gonna pass laws for sure where they're going to say, you can't drive because people are dangerous, because the automation is so good now that you can't speed, you can't violate any laws, it won't get in any accidents, and we.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Can shut you down if we want to.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's not talk about that. Let's talk about the positives. Yeah, that'll be the consequences. The consequences is you're going to lose your freedom and then you'll also be able to be locked in. At any point, if they decide they want to keep you somewhere, just lock them in the car. You know how many people are going to get killed because they just get locked in the car and they can never figure out how to get out. Like, what if hackers get a hold of the code? What if somebody just decides to drive your car off a cliff? Like, who's to stop that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

There's that scene in that movie with Julia Roberts where the world comes to an end and all the Teslas. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

They all go slamming into each other. That was nuts. That was nuts. Yeah, it's all weird. It's real weird. Did you see the one where they did a Tesla auto drive feature? And what they did was they painted the highway in front of it on a mural? So they put this, like, probably canvas mural and they did an amazing job of painting it and the car couldn't tell that it was a canvas mural and just drives right through it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

That's not good.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you seen it? Jamie, pull it up. Because it's fun to watch much. Because you're like, oh, no. Because this is the flaw of using cameras as opposed to using some sort of a radar or a light physical. I think they used to have lidar and a lot of the. The systems that do, you know, when you do cruise control, they. They can gauge how far you are with the car in front of you and slow down.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you seen those?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, I have that.

[Joe Rogan]

It's great. I think that I still don't trust it, but, yeah, I don't think that uses a camera. I think the Tesla uses a camera. So. So, see, they have that thing and see how it's painted to look just like the street.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

So we'll see if the car figures it out, but I already spoiled this for everybody, but it's kind of crazy. Watch. Doesn't slow down for a second. Goes right through it. Which is definitely not good if you're running around where people try to put murals in front of the road and they know that you're going to be driving by in a Tesla. But other than that, it doesn't really come up. For the most part though, in the real world it works perfect. Yeah, in the real world it's pretty incredible.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I mean like if you're taking on the expressway.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh yeah. It changes lanes for you. It, yeah, it hits the blinkers and changes lanes. It know it has cameras everywhere. So it knows where everything is at all times. Like I can tell. And I've had it. I've had three of them. This is my third one. So the first one I had was way back. Back. The first. When was elon on the first time? 2018. So the difference between the one in 2018, the 20, 2018 one basically just kind of stayed between the lines and, you know, and drove itself and steered itself then the new version of full self driving is insane. It stops at stop signs, it lets people in if they're trying to merge. It slows down. If there's something in front of you, it'll change lanes. Like it knows how to move traffic smoothly. It sees everything. It hits blinkers, gets off the turnpike, gets onto the side roads. It's incredible. You could summon it. If you're in a parking lot, you like come to me and it pulls out of the parking lot and drives to you. It's nuts. It's the future. It's just like we have to accept.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So what happens if you get in a wreck?

[Joe Rogan]

That's a good question. Who's in trouble?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, you sue Tesla.

[Joe Rogan]

I think you're in trouble because you're always supposed to have your hand on the wheel. You're supposed to be paying attention.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Really?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. You're not supposed to like be chicken, kicking back with your hands behind your head. You're supposed to have your hands and your eyes on the road. You're not supposed to be staring at your phone.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

What's the point?

[Joe Rogan]

Just to chill. You just kind of like just barely holding onto the wheel. You don't have to think as much. It does do that for you. It does do that. It like alleviates this feeling of being hyper alert while you're driving, which is why people are get road rage. That's what road rage comes from. Because they're, because you have to make split second decisions. Right. So your brain is primed to make split second decisions because you're on the highway and you Know you're going fast, so it's gonna get you. You know, that's like. That's what it is. Someone gets in your lane, you just start yelling because it's like you're. You're already at 7 or 8, right. You're not at a good baseline because you're in a car going 65 miles an hour. You should be alert. You know, the Tesla alleviates a little bit of that. That. Okay, but at what cost?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I won't get one because I'm gonna. I know I'm gonna run out of battery juice. That's the way I am.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, are you one of those?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I'm one of those. I'm always on the verge of running out of gas, so I will not get a Tesla.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, the charging them is a pain in the butt. Like the fact that it takes a while in comparison to pumping gas. But the plus side is if you just drive it as a commuter thing, you just plug it into your house and that's so easy to do, and then you never have to go to the gas station again.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Here and there.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

A second car maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean, I think in the future they're probably all going to be electric or some new fuel source. I heard that Porsche is working on some fuel source that is different than just standard gasoline. And it actually, it has like insanely low emissions. See if you can find that. I think it's like negligible difference in the exhaust fumes, but it's not. I don't think it's like standard gasoline. I don't think it's a standard engine. I think it's something different. So this is something they're working on now, which probably would be good to keep that creepy oil business alive forever, which they definitely want to do. How many did you say? Is it nice? Porsche? Yeah, Porsche's alternative fuel. I mean, that's the. That's the elephant in the room. Like, everything needs gas. Everything. Like this idea we got to get off petroleum products. Okay. Like when everything. Everything's made with oil. Like, we are a petroleum based society. We got so much of that stuff. We use it for everything. All your plastics. E fuel. Is that what it's called? Is that it? I'm. I think that's it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It.

[Joe Rogan]

What does it say about it? Porsche's synthetic fuel, a green kind of gasoline to save internal combustion engines. Yeah. So this is it. Similar to gasoline, but produced in a much greener way. E fuel. I don't like it already. I don't like it exactly.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

The Marketing of red flags are up.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't like it. I don't like it. Yes, you're reading that right. E Fuel is close to gasoline in its use, yet its production is much more environmentally friendly. How is this possible? Thanks to two main ingredients, water and carbon dioxide, as well as the method to produce the greener fuel. Exclamation point. This is like they're talking to a kid. The process is relatively simple. First step is the electrolysis of water, splitting it into two its two components, hydrogen and oxygen gases. In partnership with Simon's energy, Porsche simultaneously captures the carbon dioxide directly from the air and combines it with the hydrogen produced to synthesize methanol. The resulting synthetic methanol can then be used in Exxon Mobil's methanol to gasoline process. The end result is that the fuel obtained meets the same high standards followed by all gasoline types. Currently here with ecological fuel, we're far from the conventional process for the extraction transformation of oil into gasoline. Exclamation point again. But does this change the output? It seems like they're saying it changes. Is that it's the same. Oh, okay. 85% reduction of CO2 emissions. Hmm. Since good news never comes along, Porsche is planning to use the renewable. Scroll to the side. Renewable sources of electricity for the electrolysis. Okay. Well, it seems like this is their push to keep combustion engines, because that's the number one problem that car enthusiasts have. There's two problems that they have right now with electric cars. One of them is resale. People do not want used electric cars. Super hard to sell them.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

And they lose an enormous amount of their value. Like, I think if you buy one of those Porsche Taycans is this beautiful Porsche electric car they make in like two years, it's like 50% drop in what it's worth or close to.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Are they. Are there maintenance issues with them?

[Joe Rogan]

People don't want used electric cars because they know the batteries degrade. And replacing the batteries is a nightmare. Right now. It's like they're tweeners. Like, the tech is amazing. Driving them is incredible. It's instantaneous acceleration. They're amazing. The Porsche one is fantastic. Same as the Model S. The driving them makes other cars feel so stupid, but the problem is reselling them. You lose a lot of value in them. It. As opposed to like, if you buy something, you know, like that, it's like a BMW. Like, say you buy a BMW M3 and then you want to get rid of it in two years, it doesn't lose much value. It's still a really valuable car that people want because it probably will behave the exact same way as the day you drove it off the lot. But you can get it now for cheaper. A little cheaper, but not a lot cheaper.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

But not with these E cars, which is kind of crazy. Buddy of mine's kid got an Audi. Like, this sick Audi. I think it's called the E Tron. You got it for, like, $60,000, and it was, like, $120,000 car a couple years ago. Yeah. So that's an issue.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

But how long are the batteries supposed to last?

[Joe Rogan]

That's a good question. You know, they slowly degrade over time, and I don't think there's anything you can do to stop that.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I think that's just kind of like your iPhone.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, your iPhone's even worse because it's kind of engineered to do that. Once they move up the operating system and bring in the new phones.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I'm holding out. I need to replace mine now. And I'm just.

[Joe Rogan]

I know. The thing is, if you don't have that blue bubble, people think you're poor or they think you're a dummy.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Please bother me when I get the green.

[Joe Rogan]

I know.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

It really bothers me.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a psyop. It really is a psyop. They got us with that. Well, especially if this technology that exists, that's the advancement past Pegasus. It doesn't matter if your stuff's encrypted. Like, it really doesn't matter. You know, it's like, it seems like it doesn't matter if someone wants to read it. Someone in a high position of power wants to read it. And regular hackers, Are they really, like, hacking in your phone? Like, what's going on?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, I just assume I'm just not going to send a text message that I don't want the world to see.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, that's the best assumption. That's the best assumption. Yeah. Just assume that someone is definitely watching everything you do all the time. At the very least, the government's storing it somewhere in case they need to come after you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

You.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is so weird that they're the people we pay. You know, it's like you're. You're paying the people that are restricting your rights. Like, okay. And you have to, because if you don't, they lock you up.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I wouldn't have guessed it other but for the pandemic.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So, I mean, I. I already asked you whether or not this was a good thing, but do you feel like you're A different person at the end of this.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah. I mean, yes or no? Yeah, I was. I was pretty shy. I mean, I. Growing up, I was very shy and really hated public speaking.

[Joe Rogan]

You would never guess. For real. You're so good at it.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I still don't like it. Like, for me to do that press conference, I must have been just on some sort of like. But so I'm. I feel like I've grown, that I can do things now that I never thought I could do. And so that makes me very happy. And yeah, it's been a journey, but I'm hoping it gets a little easier now.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I'm hoping it gets easier too. But I think the more people hear your story, the more public outrage there'll be and the more people will just wake up and realize that not everybody has your best interests in mind, you know, unfortunately. And you got to kind of hold people accountable because if you don't, they're going to keep. They'll ratchet it up even further and further.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, thank you for continuing to talk about it. And I know I've been watching all your podcasts recently and you bring it up a lot. So I think, I think, I think it's a festering wound for people. Right. And it really impacted everybody. And we cannot sweep it under the rug. And we need the new administration to step up and do something because the next. You know, they have 500 mRNA shots in the pipeline. 33 of those are self amplifying, which is just really terrifying.

[Joe Rogan]

What does that mean?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Meaning, like they're designed to continue to replicate indefinitely. I mean, already the ones we have, we don't have an off switch. And this is like no off switch on steroids. They have them in Japan and India and the EU already. This is for the people. I don't know. I know they've passed. The one that I think is in the pipeline in the US is for the H1N1. So it may not really even get used unless there's an issue, but they're still playing around with it.

[Joe Rogan]

Self replicating. Sounds terrifying, right? Especially when you just highlighted all those other problems with like, DNA being introduced, lipid nanoparticles getting past the cell wall. All of it is just nuts.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, it's hard to believe we have to keep fighting.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's hard to believe it's true. It really is. It's hard to believe that all this that you just said is true. And I think the thing that shocked me the most is the euthanizing people.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, that's Unfortunate. But, yeah, the hospital. What happened in the hospitals doesn't really get enough attention. But, you know, people were, oh, this is. This should give some people hope. There are two open criminal investigations from county district attorneys in two different states looking into the hospitals, trying to indict them. I mean, it hasn't happened yet. It may not happen, but it gives me hope that at least these people were sent to the hospital and trapped, isolated, informed consent, thrown out the window. So basically, given these protocols that were not effective and treated like prisoners, and then they have no recourse, and so many people die. I mean, basically, that situation with the patient who I fought to try to get ivermectin, very basic. Why would the hospital not just give him a chance? Right. He was. They basically had given up on him. Why would you not let somebody try ivermectin other than just evil? So there's. There's hope that. That may. We may get some progress in that situation. But, yeah, what happened in the hospital is really bad. And.

[Joe Rogan]

And the ventilators.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Yeah, the ventilators that, you know, I.

[Joe Rogan]

There's no acknowledgment of why they stopped prescribing them.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

I can see initially, because, like I said, you know, if somebody showed up in my office with a really low oxygen satur, before I knew any better, I would have freaked out and, you know, called the ambulance. But once I realized that, once I got through that, I was kind of forced to, then I learned, yeah, you don't need to ventilate. You don't look at a number to put somebody on a ventilator. And unfortunately, the people in the hospital didn't learn. They didn't experiment in that fashion. They just went by this protocol and just automatically put people on ventilators. They also didn't give people breathing treatments. They thought that breathing treatments would spread the virus. Breathing treatments were invaluable. I mean, I.

[Joe Rogan]

What are breathing treatments exactly?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

So it's a little. It's not a big deal. It's a little machine with a tube. The tube connects to a mask. The mask has a cup. You put the medicine in the cup. The pressurized air distributes the medicine as an aerosol that you inhale.

[Joe Rogan]

What kind of medicine?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Budesonide is what we use, which is a steroid. I mean, yeah, I used to do breathing treatments in my office, and then I moved them to people's cars because there was so much, oh, you're spreading the virus if you do breathing treatments in your office. But they weren't doing them in the hospital because they thought it would spread the virus, but super effective. I don't know if you've heard of Richard Bartlett. He's a doctor in Texas. He kind of got completely smeared for advocating for breathing treatments early on and got pursued by the Texas Medical Board. Pursued him because he was claiming they thought he was making false claims about budesonide breathing treatments. But they were invaluable. I mean, all my high risk patients, I recommended they get those in very low risk of issues with it.

[Joe Rogan]

Just when I thought there was, we were done. That's even worse. That's. That's one of the worst ones. Like why would you stop that? Why would you want to stop people from doing that?

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Well, they claimed that you're spreading the virus.

[Joe Rogan]

I just think it's just such a hard truth to swallow, is that they wanted to suppress as many treatments as possible. That's a hard truth to swallow.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Partially out of ignorance, laziness, some of them out of evil.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you. Thank you for exposing this and sticking your neck out and becoming the person you are today through all this craziness. And I really enjoyed talking to you.

[Dr. Mary Talley Bowden]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Rogan]

You have a lot of courage. You really do. And I hope you get through this as a winner. Thank you. All right, bye, everybody. Sam.