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- [00:02]
Lucas Nelson
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
- [00:12]
Joe Rogan
We're up. Lucas, what's up? Good to talk to you, man. Thanks for being here.
- [00:18]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
- [00:19]
Joe Rogan
I gotta tell you, you know, when I heard Willie Nelson's kid plays music, there's a thing that you always do, and I have to admit it, you do it. Like, when the son of a great man, you always assume, well, yeah, he's probably mediocre. You know what I mean? And then you performed at McConaughey's, that charity function thing, and you killed it, man. You blew me away. It was incredible. And I was like, wow. It was really cool to see, man. It was really exciting. It was really fun, you know, you were the highlight of the night, man. You really were.
- [00:57]
Lucas Nelson
It's moments like those where I started to gain confidence, you know, I'd have. Over the years, I'd go out and play, and I'd play my songs that I've written, and when I get crowds that would do that, you know? And so that gave me the confidence to keep going. And I first started playing music in order to get closer to my father.
- [01:20]
Joe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- [01:22]
Lucas Nelson
Know what I mean? So I, I, I. He would be gone all the time, right? And I'd be missing him. And. And so in order to get close to him, I figured I, I need to speak the same musical language. And. And so I learned young, and I wrote a song young that's on the new album, actually. I got. It's called you Were It. It's the first song I ever wrote when I was 11. And, and my dad loved it so much that he covered it at the time, and he put it out on his album back in 2004 called it Always Will Be.
- [01:56]
Joe Rogan
The.
- [01:56]
Lucas Nelson
The album was called It Always Will Be, and that gave me the confidence at a young age. Kris Kristofferson came up to me, and he's like, man, you don't have a choice but to be a songwriter. And so I had all this inspiration at a young age, kind of like an athlete. At a certain point, you kind of have to look at, like, oh, well, if I have a talent at this, I have, I have connections in the industry. I need to work like, I was going to go to the Olympics on this, because it's something that I can do that will make it so that I never have to rely on my family or my father for anything.
- [02:31]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [02:32]
Lucas Nelson
You know, my whole goal in life is to discover who I am as an individual.
- [02:39]
Joe Rogan
You know, is that part of the difficulty of growing up with an incredibly famous father?
- [02:45]
Lucas Nelson
I think the, you know, Viktor Frankl has a, a book, a very famous book called Man's Search for Meaning, and it's about Auschwitz, and he was an Auschwitz survivor and he wrote about what was the common denominator in terms of people who persevered and survived in these camps. And dignity and meaning were the common denominators generally. And so finding what you mean in this life to yourself, it doesn't have to mean anything to anyone else. And I think that's where for me, I've lived my whole life trying to discover who I meant to myself so that at the moment of my death I can look back and say I did something that I enjoyed, that was meaningful, that gave me a sense of purpose.
- [03:38]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. There's both a blessing and a burden to being the child of someone who's incredibly famous at a thing that you're trying to do. You know, like, there's a lot of sons of athletes, for instance, that live in their father's shadow, and very few of them ever rise to the level that their father was at.
- [04:03]
Lucas Nelson
Sure. I think for me, I was never trying to be as great as him. I was only trying to be close to him. Because more than anything, my father's a great human being. He's a well rounded, kind, empathetic human. And I'm truly grateful to be his and my mother's son, you know, because I have a good family. I'm lucky, you know, that's awesome. You know, I have a good, good parent. So what I was trying to do was just be closer to him. And, you know, as a little kid, you know, the best thing my mom ever did was when I was like earlier, I was probably five or six years old and my brother had just passed away not too long before this, actually. And I would cry every time my dad would leave, you know, and my mom sat me down one time and she said, it tears him apart when you cry like this because he doesn't want to leave. He's going out there, he's making people happy, he's giving people joy, and he's doing what he came here on this earth to do and he's supporting this family. And so the support that my mother had for him at that moment, I never cried again. I was able to let go of that idea. And then just from that point on, work towards creating what would make me happy in my life and give me the same joy. And then Be able to take care of a family. Hopefully. One of my greatest sources of pride is that I haven't had to ask my parents for anything. I bought my own house. I bought my. You know, I. I went and did Star is Born. And I got, you know, I mean, I. I've been able to make myself a living, and I think that makes my parents proud. It makes my dad proud. And that's what I've always wanted to do. That's been my whole. My whole life is wanting to make them proud.
- [05:49]
Joe Rogan
That's awesome. Well, it's a great motivation, you know, for sure, when especially you have great parents that. That tried.
- [05:56]
Lucas Nelson
I'm lucky in that way, you know. I know a lot of people have broken homes and grew up, and even I caught dad at a good time. I mean, my dad was 55 or so when he had me, you know, and so he had already been through a lot of his demons and gotten through them and faced them and was still going through them at the time that I was born. But he had come out of, you know, a life of habit and sort of formed the ones that would take him at that point to where he is now at 92 years old. And so I got a good version of dad, you know, who had grown since, you know, and so, man, you know, I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I feel like, you know, I was able to be exposed to a lot of great music, a lot of great mentors, you know, in my life. And I'm also lucky that I, at a young age, I'm grateful to my younger child, to myself as a young child, for having the wisdom to say, all right, work hard. Now. Forget about parties, forget about hanging out. Work hard. Eight hours, ten hours a day. Practice your guitar. Right? All the time, sing all the time, so that when you get to a certain point in life, you'll have something to show for it, you know, something that you can leave behind that's yours, you know?
- [07:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, that's awesome, man. That, you know, that's what most people in this life want. They want a purpose.
- [07:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [07:23]
Joe Rogan
You know, they want something that means something both to them and to other people.
- [07:27]
Lucas Nelson
Exactly. Yeah.
- [07:29]
Joe Rogan
It's hard to find.
- [07:30]
Lucas Nelson
It's hard to find a purpose, you know, that is something that I've always had growing up. And I think it's because I was. You know, again, I'm grateful to that younger kid. Sometimes I feel like he's wiser than I am now. You know, that younger self is like, almost. I'm you know, and now that I'm sober, I mean, I quit smoking weed, I quit drinking. And.
- [07:53]
Joe Rogan
When did you do all that? Really?
- [07:55]
Lucas Nelson
Around the pandemic.
- [07:56]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but that's usually when a lot of people started.
- [08:00]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I went the opposite way. I started meditating twice a day. You know, the only thing I'll do now is mushrooms every once in a while to check in with myself and you know, just kind of make sure that I'm, you know, I feel like mushrooms is like taking a nice good hose to your soul and just kind of like, you know.
- [08:16]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, clean out all the, not all the. Yeah, I feel like, you know, they should be legal.
- [08:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, 100%.
- [08:23]
Joe Rogan
Really? If I could talk Trump into one thing, that might be the one thing. You know, I had this conversation with Paul Stamets the other day.
- [08:32]
Lucas Nelson
I love Paul Stamets.
- [08:33]
Joe Rogan
He's amazing.
- [08:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, he's great. I just saw him at the Dead show. The Sphere show.
- [08:38]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah.
- [08:41]
Lucas Nelson
Have you been to his place? He invited me to his place up there. It's supposed to be amazing.
- [08:45]
Joe Rogan
I was just reading an email from him today inviting me to his place.
- [08:48]
Lucas Nelson
That's awesome.
- [08:49]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's a prepper. He's ready for the apocalypse.
- [08:53]
Lucas Nelson
America's beverage companies are investing in America. We're American companies making American products with American workers in America's hometowns. We're local bottlers and manufacturers operating in all 50 states, employing more than 275,000Americans in good paying jobs, delivering for the.
- [09:12]
Joe Rogan
Nation because we believe in the promise of America and the people who make it great.
- [09:17]
Lucas Nelson
Learn more@wedeliverforamerica.org paid for by the American Beverage Association.
- [09:22]
Joe Rogan
Oops.
- [09:23]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, well, it might be a good idea.
- [09:27]
Joe Rogan
I mean, maybe. I don't know. I think we're gonna be okay.
- [09:31]
Lucas Nelson
I do, too.
- [09:31]
Joe Rogan
I do. I mean, I think the feeling that we might not be okay, though, is a great motivator.
- [09:37]
Lucas Nelson
We should always be checking in with ourselves and asking ourselves, are we going too far to certain extremes?
- [09:43]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, well, that was the part of the conversation that we had. You know, we're like, is there a thing that could really help the world? And it sounds so cliche and hippie and. And especially someone who's never done mushrooms. But I think that might be the thing, you know, even if it's just like small doses, just a little something to alleviate anxiety, bring people closer together, make them understand that there's more to life than conflict and bullshit, and most of your conflict is Bullshit. Most of it's nonsense and most of it's unnecessary.
- [10:14]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. My dad always says 99% of the things you worry about never come true, you know, and it's just a matter of. Yeah, I mean, it is sort of a cliche. I read the. The Power of Now, which is Eckhart Tolle. When I was like, 13, I used. I went to school next to a Buddhist temple. And so I grew up with my dad teaching me the Lord's Prayer that I'd say every night. And then I'd go to this Buddhist temple and hang with these monks, you know.
- [10:41]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [10:42]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. Yeah. Where was I in Maui. I grew up part time in Austin. I was born in Austin. I was in Maui.
- [10:47]
Joe Rogan
And so Buddhist temple in Maui.
- [10:49]
Lucas Nelson
Buddhist temple right near where I was going to school at the time. So after school every day, I'd sit with these monks and just the vibe of that is powerful. The chanting, the energy around that, you know, the presence though, that they have. They're just, you know, their whole goal, obviously, is to just, you know, be purely present.
- [11:09]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Lucas Nelson
And so while that sounds like a cliche, I truly believe that that's an important thing, you know, to let go of the battle of positive and negative. That in the mental space, that's all that exists, is duality, you know?
- [11:28]
Joe Rogan
Well, to find a true path, you have to avoid being pushed and pulled in a bunch of directions that are totally unnecessary. And sometimes you get sort of preoccupied or captivated by the push and the pull of bullshit.
- [11:44]
Lucas Nelson
Well, and we're. We're. We. There is a manipulation that happens on purpose. I have a song called Turn off the News and Build a Garden. Do you ever hear that song?
- [11:57]
Joe Rogan
No, I haven't heard that one.
- [11:58]
Lucas Nelson
You want me to play it for you?
- [11:59]
Joe Rogan
Fuck, yeah. Yeah, play it.
- [12:01]
Lucas Nelson
This is a song called Turn off the News and Build a Garden. And I wrote it because.
- [12:05]
Joe Rogan
Because it's great advice.
- [12:08]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And I just. The news cycle. I mean, there's a difference between being informed and being constantly captured by the overwhelmed. Yes. Got a tune for all your listeners. I believe that every heart is kind Some are just a little underused Hatred is a symptom of the times Lost in these uneducated blues I just wanna love you while I All these other thoughts have me confused I don't need to try to understand maybe I'll Turn off the fucking news Turn off the news and build a garden Just my neighborhood and me we might feel a bit less hardened we might feel a bit more free Turn off the news and raise the kids. Give them something to believe in. Teach them how to be good people. Give them hope that they can see. Hope that they can see. Turn off the news and build a garden with me.
- [13:58]
Joe Rogan
That's awesome.
- [13:59]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. So, you know, I've always felt that way. And I think that there's action is so important. Being a part of your community, being a part of decisions that are made, I think that's huge. I think local communities are really important. I think local town meetings, understanding where you're going, you know, and understanding where your neighborhood is going and getting to know your neighbors because it's really hard to. It's hard to have any hatred when you understand and know your neighbor. You know what I mean? And, you know, the people that are around, you know. You know, and so I think that. Yeah, that's kind of where I come from. I just think, like, you know, it's important to get out there. And I put my. I usually try not to stand on soapboxes, though, you know, Man, I put. If I have something to say, I'll put it in my music, you know, and I'll. And I'll put it out there, you know.
- [14:56]
Joe Rogan
Well, that's the best way to get it to people anyway.
- [14:59]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, look at Bob Dylan, Masters of War. I mean, that's the military industrial complex right there. That's an incredible song. Only a pawn in their game is the history of. Of racism. And how that, you know, started is a pretty much a controlled political ploy to get the poor blacks and the poor whites to blame each other for everything happening, you know.
- [15:23]
Joe Rogan
You ever hear Bill Hicks bit about the news?
- [15:26]
Lucas Nelson
I was just listening to Bill Hicks. That's so funny.
- [15:29]
Joe Rogan
He's got that great bit about the news like war, famine, disease, aids. You go outside, chirp, chirp, chirp. Where the is all this happening? I think Ted Turner's making this up because his wife won't him.
- [15:42]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I, you know, look, I think it's out there. Yeah, I think it's always been out there. But I think the way to combat it is to build strong local community.
- [15:56]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [15:57]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and. And build, you know, that's why I think regenerative. Regenerative farming is really important and trying to. And then, you know, voting for people that will support local agriculture and proper, properly grown food and probably like sourced food. And these things are very important, you know.
- [16:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, that's certainly important for a community if you know exactly where your food's coming from. I think we're just so. It's not you know, in the Bill Hicks days, it was just the news, but now I think there. The real problem that people have today is social media. And, you know, I never. I very. If I post things, I just post them and then get out of there. I don't read anything, and I very rarely read social media anymore. And since making that decision to kind of stay away from it, I think occasionally I have to dip in just to see what. What's. Because I'm a comedian. It's part of the problem.
- [16:52]
Lucas Nelson
You got to know.
- [16:53]
Joe Rogan
I need to know what people are doing, why everyone's so mad, what's happening. But there's too many people that are on it all day long. And I think it's poison. I really do. I think it's bad for your mind. I think it generally attracts negativity. I think most of the stuff that people post is negative and they're complaining all the time. And then that gets into your mind and that gets into your whatever. You know, your headset is your headspace. And then you start thinking the way these people are thinking.
- [17:25]
Lucas Nelson
And I like to be informed on what I'm talking about, you know, I really do. And that takes a lot of time.
- [17:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [17:33]
Lucas Nelson
It's not something that I can look at, something online that comes up and just have an immediate opinion on.
- [17:39]
Joe Rogan
Sure.
- [17:39]
Lucas Nelson
And I think that really, I'm just like, I don't know where I stand on half the issues that are out there because I see a lot of. I have to sift through most of the bullshit. So really where it ends up happening is that by the time I get to the voting booth, I'm hoping that I'm properly informed, you know?
- [18:00]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's hard to be properly informed because it's hard to know who's telling the truth. It is like, if you pay attention, this big, beautiful bill that just got passed, I've been trying to sort out what's real and what's not, you know, and the real fear that people have is Medicaid.
- [18:15]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [18:15]
Joe Rogan
The real fear is that people are going to lose access to health care. And it's so. But then there was this just giant arrest where they found billions of dollars of fraud and hundreds of people were arrested. Doctors, healthcare providers. You know about all that, right? Jamie, you saw that big arrest. It's, you know, sounds like something, but.
- [18:39]
Lucas Nelson
You know, I just. I just don't know enough.
- [18:41]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I don't know enough either. So they're trying to eliminate fraud as a part of this.
- [18:45]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [18:46]
Joe Rogan
But the consequences of that is like, well, okay, but is this gonna affect poor people? Is this gonna affect legitimate poor people that just need help? And that's, to me, that's the most important thing. Thing. National health care fraud Takedown results in 324 defendants charged in connection with over 14 billion. 14.6 billion in fraud.
- [19:07]
Lucas Nelson
Wow.
- [19:07]
Joe Rogan
Largest Justice Department health care fraud takedown in history. More than doubles prior record of 6 billion.
- [19:14]
Lucas Nelson
Wow. That's a government website, right? I don't know, you know, I just.
- [19:19]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [19:19]
Lucas Nelson
You know, I just don't know. And I don't know enough. And I know that there's probably more to the story than we're seeing.
- [19:26]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, for sure. Right.
- [19:27]
Lucas Nelson
And so, you know, that's kind of how like controlled opposition works to, you know, you just sort of, you know.
- [19:34]
Joe Rogan
Says Medicare Medicaid Services also announced successfully prevented over 4 billion from being paid in response to false and fraudulent claims and that it suspended or revoked the billing privilege of 205 providers of the month leading up to the takedown civil charges against 20 defendants. For 14.2 million in alleged fraud, as well as civil settlements with over 106 defendants. It's totaling in 34.3 million.
- [19:59]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, well, I'll have to do some research.
- [20:01]
Joe Rogan
Or not.
- [20:03]
Lucas Nelson
Well, that's the thing. I'm. I'm a musician, man, you know.
- [20:06]
Joe Rogan
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- [21:08]
Lucas Nelson
I do think it's important to know, but at the same time, what I, what I do know is that there's a lot of marginalized communities. Whether it's, yeah, a class issue or it's a, you know, it, it just. I just see that there's a lot of people who don't have a lot of money or Suffering and for sure. And there's a lot of people getting caught in crossfire all over the world. And it's a humanitarian issue, you know.
- [21:37]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [21:37]
Lucas Nelson
And I think, you know, and so, you know, as a musician, I have a responsibility to observe. I think as an artist, I have.
- [21:46]
Joe Rogan
A responsibility as a human.
- [21:48]
Lucas Nelson
As a human, yeah.
- [21:49]
Joe Rogan
I think we all have a responsibility to observe.
- [21:51]
Lucas Nelson
And I also don't like to keep my opinion resolute. I don't like to identify with my opinion. Meaning, like, I'm not joining any teams here, you know, Great. I don't have any teams. I want to know what, what based on. If I get conflicting information, I have to make a decision on which one's going to sway the decisions I make going forward. You know, it's tough. It's not easy in this world. It's really not easy. But back in the day, interestingly, I think they had more of an ability to manipulate us back in the day because we only had one or two sources of information.
- [22:34]
Joe Rogan
Oh, no doubt, no doubt. Well, listen, as confusing and as frustrating as social media is and as dangerous as it is for your psyche, it's better. It's better to have it than to not have it because you don't have to listen to it, you don't have to go on it. And that's what I always tell people, stay off it. But it's there for you if you like, when shit pops off in the world, it's the best source of information. I Google things all the time and they're not there. And then I'll go to X and they're there immediately. When something happens in the world, it's on X before it's on anywhere else.
- [23:08]
Lucas Nelson
Well, there's a lot of platforms. I'm sure that. Yeah. That Google is. Yeah.
- [23:13]
Joe Rogan
But the thing is, X is immediate, Right. It's people that are on the ground and people that are experienced. Independent journalists use it more often than anything else. And. Substack.
- [23:25]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I think that, you know, I think the only thing that I think I worry about with that is that the pendulum swings so far in either direction in response to certain things.
- [23:38]
Joe Rogan
Sure.
- [23:38]
Lucas Nelson
In response to perceived censorship in one way, then it becomes, instead of it being completely a platform of opinions, you know, then censorship happens on that side with dissenting opinions, you know, and so I think that the censorship just continues to be like, okay, well, it just goes back and forth. And so I have a hard time. I have a hard time understanding. And that's why I don't really feel Like, I have an ability to form a proper opinion on a lot of this shit.
- [24:10]
Joe Rogan
Well, that's an intelligent perspective. Because the reality is so many people that have really strong opinions aren't informed.
- [24:16]
Lucas Nelson
Well, that's the thing. And I see people that die on certain hills and then, you know, but with no ability to formulate. Like, that's why I'm a musician. That's why I do what I do here. Because I, you know, all I do is, you know, I err on the side of compassion. And I think, you know, I'm compassionate for people who are suffering. I, you know, I have compassion for suffering. I believe that. I believe that empathy can be manipulated, but I don't believe that it's. I think it's a necessary emotion.
- [24:49]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [24:50]
Lucas Nelson
For cooperation and human condition.
- [24:52]
Joe Rogan
That's a great way to put it, you know, because empathy can be manipulated.
- [24:55]
Lucas Nelson
It can be manipulated through psychological warfare. But I also believe that it's an. It's never a good idea to then shut it off. Shut it off.
- [25:03]
Joe Rogan
100%. Well said.
- [25:05]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [25:06]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That's a really good.
- [25:07]
Lucas Nelson
And I also will say this, like, I think throughout history there have been examples where people have put their faith in policy over character.
- [25:20]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [25:21]
Lucas Nelson
And I think that's a mistake. I think the character of the person implementing the policy is just as important as the policy they represent.
- [25:30]
Joe Rogan
Well, you know, and today nothing gets implemented. There's no policy that gets drafted or implemented without a lot of weird influence. Influence from money. It's always money.
- [25:40]
Lucas Nelson
And I have no idea the depth of that. So where am I? Where am I, you know, where my. Where my. My truth lies? In compassion.
- [25:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [25:52]
Lucas Nelson
And in trying to reach the hearts of people and through music. Daryl Day. Do you know Daryl Davis?
- [25:58]
Joe Rogan
Sure, I've had him on a couple times.
- [25:59]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, my God.
- [25:59]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's great. He's amazing.
- [26:01]
Lucas Nelson
He's a hero of mine.
- [26:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's an amazing person.
- [26:03]
Lucas Nelson
What a fearless person. To be able to go and sit down with these people and change their hearts.
- [26:08]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Hundreds of them.
- [26:10]
Lucas Nelson
Hundreds of them. Collecting one on one.
- [26:12]
Joe Rogan
Let's tell people what he does. So Darrell's a musician. And Darrell, through the course of his travels, met. It started. He told me the whole story. The first guy he met, he didn't really believe him that the guy was actually in the kkk. Darrell's a black man. And so this guy pulls out his KKK membership card or whatever the fuck it is, right. And he couldn't believe it. And he's like, well, you're not like the other ones. And he's like, well, what do you mean? Do you know everyone that's black? Like, what is this? And so he becomes friends with this guy, has dinner at his house, and then the guy gives him, over the course of their friendship, he says, I quit, man. Obviously what I'm doing is wrong because you're my best friend, you know, like, I love you. And so it can't be true that the black man is my enemy. If you are such a cool person.
- [26:59]
Lucas Nelson
Yes. And humans must be allowed to grow.
- [27:02]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [27:03]
Lucas Nelson
You know, we, we have to be. We have to allow people who have made mistakes in their past to. We have to suspend judgment enough to allow that person to grow.
- [27:16]
Joe Rogan
No question. Because you have to understand what influences was this guy subject to that led him to join the KKK in the first place? What was the community that he was in? What had he been exposed to? Obviously he had never been exposed to anybody like Darrell before he met him. So he meets Darrell and then changes his ways. Well, who knows? If that guy grew up with cool parents in a different community, he would have been a different person.
- [27:41]
Lucas Nelson
100%. We're how we, we are brought up.
- [27:44]
Joe Rogan
Yes. For the most part, our life experiences and what we've learned and the paths we've taken. Yeah.
- [27:50]
Lucas Nelson
And you know, and you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of that going on. I mean, I'm from Texas and I've toured the south and I know how that is. And there's a lot of people that grow up being indoctrinated.
- [28:02]
Joe Rogan
Uh huh. Yeah.
- [28:04]
Lucas Nelson
And with really not, not good ideas.
- [28:08]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [28:09]
Lucas Nelson
But they don't know until they're able to. That's what I was saying earlier about, you know, that's what music does. I love. A great example is Paul Simon played a show in South Africa just after apartheid when he did the Graceland album. Right. He went down there and he worked with local African musicians and created, in my opinion, one of the greatest albums of all time. I mean, with Ladysmith Black Mombazo doing the vocals on that, Vincent Nguini, the most incredible musicians. And at the time, that was a culturally powerful thing because there's a show online, you can watch it. There's a. You should probably pull it up. It's amazing. There's like Paul Simon playing for tens of thousands of black and white people in right after apartheid ends, or you may even be during apartheid, and they're all dancing and bobbing up and down. It's the most joyful thing Ever. Music is powerful. It can bring people together. But because what it does is it reaches everybody's heart and it cuts through all the bullshit, the mind stuff, you know, and everyone can relate to having their heart broken. You know, maybe it happened for some at a young age. Maybe it happened. Maybe. Maybe some people had their heart broken at age four to the point where they closed their hearts off nearly completely. But even Darth Vader had a little bit. You know what I mean? Darth Vader. Everyone forgets that Darth Vader at the end of Star Wars.
- [29:48]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [29:50]
Lucas Nelson
Redeemed himself. It's the. Carl Jung, the archetype, Right. The dark night of the soul and then being able to come through that.
- [29:57]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [29:58]
Lucas Nelson
And like. And really like, you know, and you can judge, you can not want to be around, like, I think Carl Jung actually talks about, like, there are certain people and things that you can't allow to exist because they're dangerous to everyone else. But at the same time, you don't have to judge their humanity. Right. You just, like. It's like a wasp. You have to swat the wasp because it's going to sting you. But, you know, or, you know, however you feel about that, you can put it outside, but you get it away. Right.
- [30:28]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [30:28]
Lucas Nelson
You know, but you don't. You don't call the wasp evil.
- [30:31]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [30:32]
Lucas Nelson
There are people that have just been corrupted for whatever reasons to the point where you just need to remove them from the situation. But I don't. I try not to have hatred towards that. I just. I just sort of understand that they are where they are in their lives and they, they got there for some reason.
- [30:48]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's a cautionary tale for everyone. Yeah. That's the thing about today's access to information is you could see so many different cautionary tales. You could see so many different people that went down the absolute wrong road. And you get to see them and you get to shine a light on them in this very strange time. You get to see, like this, this is. You could have been that person. Anybody could have been that person so easily. We have so many similarities, all of us do. And we have to recognize that your unique situation in life, your unique community, family, life experiences, all the things you've gone through that made you who you are today, didn't have to be that way. You. You could have been in the worst circumstances, and there's people that are in the worst circumstances and they're a product of that. And that's the weirdness of life. There's not necessarily good and evil, there's good and evil results. But humans inherently, we have both inside. We have both inside.
- [31:55]
Lucas Nelson
We're the yin and the yang.
- [31:56]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you know, I think you need that unfortunately too. We need to know that exists in.
- [32:03]
Lucas Nelson
Order to grow when people, you know, ask, you know, and I'm a very lucky human. So like I say all these things with hopefully the right perspective that I am as far as I'm in like the top 1% of the luckiest people or probably even the higher than that, you know, with access to clean water, I don't have to worry about when I'm pulled over being shot. I don't, you know, there's, there's not. There are a lot of things that I can be very grateful for. And so when I make comments about these things, you know, I can only come from my own perspective, of course. But I do believe that we all have the light and the dark inside us. Like the story of the wolf, you know, the story of the two wolves inside of us. And you know, which one survives is the one you feed.
- [32:59]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [32:59]
Lucas Nelson
You have the light wolf and the dark wolf. And you just constantly make decisions in order to feed the right wolf over time. And some people get lost and they start feeding the wrong wolf. And I, I feel like I've been there before too, you know, I've gone through darkness and come out the other side, you know, in my own way, in my own, you know, in my own experience, you know, in my own pain, in my own heart, you know. You know, I think the one. That's why I believe it's so important to reach people's hearts and why music is so powerful, because we all have a heart, you know, disregarding certain sociopathic people, for the most part. For the most part, we all have a heart. And so that's where you reach, you know, And I think sociopaths, you know, that's on a spectrum too, is what we're hearing. You know what I mean? So you have people who can learn sociopathic behavior but aren't necessarily devoid of feeling, right?
- [33:58]
Joe Rogan
There's people that become sociopaths or survive, I bet.
- [34:00]
Lucas Nelson
Exactly. Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [34:02]
Joe Rogan
I'm sure.
- [34:02]
Lucas Nelson
100%.
- [34:04]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's, it's not that clear cut. And you know, to, to demonize people is. That's a, the instinct, right? That's, that's how wars get started. We other, an entire group of humans, they're the other, you know, and I think this is tribal society behavior that developed because at one point in time, when you saw Someone from another tribe that was invading, they were coming to steal your resources and kill.
- [34:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yes.
- [34:33]
Joe Rogan
And that's what people did.
- [34:35]
Lucas Nelson
And again that also there's an exception to that in the sense that like for example, in Germany, you know, there were, there were clear cut decisions that people had to make about survival and about, you know, like, I'm sorry, but the Nazis had to go.
- [34:54]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [34:54]
Lucas Nelson
You know, we can't just say that.
- [34:57]
Joe Rogan
You know, they're good people, everyone's the.
- [34:59]
Lucas Nelson
Same, you know, you know, they're so far gone that they just have to go. Yeah, and that's. There are certain examples of that. So it's not like you don't have to forgive people, you just have to understand them, I think.
- [35:14]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That's why people call that the last Great War or the real war.
- [35:18]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [35:18]
Joe Rogan
Because it's like there was such a clear cut case of good and evil.
- [35:23]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And that's, I mean, look, I think the military industrial complex has been around since, even before then.
- [35:30]
Joe Rogan
Oh, for sure. Well, Smedley Butler wrote about it in 1933. Yeah.
- [35:34]
Lucas Nelson
So anyways, that's where, that's where Bob Dylan comes in, you know, Masters of War, you know, you know, look, man, I'm.
- [35:41]
Joe Rogan
Again, that's also why mushrooms are illegal.
- [35:44]
Lucas Nelson
Is it really?
- [35:45]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, yeah. Mushrooms were made illegal during the Nixon administration because they wanted to figure out a way to stop the anti war protests. They wanted to figure out a way they turned everything. Schedule one, they took all the psychedelics and lumped them into a Schedule 1 because they wanted to go after civil rights activists and anti war activists. That was the main reason. Like this is the best way to lock these people up.
- [36:08]
Lucas Nelson
Well, and interestingly. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know. Right. Because the thing is that there are a lot of studies about marijuana now that say, okay, it could be harmful. Right. They come out. But then at the same time the way that those, that, that's harmful and then the, the, you know, comparatively to the other things that are legal and allowed to just propagate.
- [36:35]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [36:35]
Lucas Nelson
Like whiskey or cigarettes. You know, like, I mean, like, you know, you have it. There's obviously a, a bias against. And that you can see clearly. And, and obviously it came from this.
- [36:49]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's also who's funding these studies?
- [36:52]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [36:52]
Joe Rogan
And what, what did they look for when they're funding these studies? And did they have it. Was their bias attached to these studies? Like what, what does this mean? You know, like I know a lot of people who use marijuana. It's not harmful to Them at all. So like, did you include those people in that study? Like, and then I know people that use marijuana and it really does over. It consumes their life. It. They overindulge.
- [37:14]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I had to stop.
- [37:16]
Joe Rogan
What was, what was happening with you with it?
- [37:18]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I had to stop for many reasons. I wanted to be clear headed. I started exercising a lot. You know, I got my whoop, you know, I got my whoop right here. You know, I started tracking my sleep and funny enough, the sleep is really what got me the most because every time I take a hit or take one drink, my sleep would go to shit.
- [37:45]
Joe Rogan
It's amazing when you look at the results.
- [37:46]
Lucas Nelson
Oh my God, it was intense. And so, and you know, I started working out heavy and I really, I had a lot of great, like, you know, I, I have a, you know, a high, good engine. You know, I'm VO2 and like, I was like, you know, really started to feel like an athlete again and started feel. I started to feel great. I started to get addicted to the high that I would get. Saying no. Of being proud of myself, having discipline and having the discipline. I love the high that I get from exercising discipline. I'm addicted to that.
- [38:20]
Joe Rogan
That's a good thing to be addicted to. Totally.
- [38:22]
Lucas Nelson
Right? You get addicted to that feeling that you get that's like self improvement, you know, Like Goggins, he talks about, you know, all carrot, no stick. Right. Or all stick, no carrot. Can't remember which one it is. Right. But the thing is, is that for me, the reward is the high that I get from having discipline.
- [38:41]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [38:42]
Lucas Nelson
And I get a. It's a dopamine hit, you know, and it's, it's just vastly more rewarding than, than the whatever temporary thing I'll get from having a drink. I don't like, like drinking that much, but smoking weed was cool because it put me into a very, like, creative spot and kind of gave me this surge of inspiration, if you will. But it's bad for my lungs. And there were a lot of ups and downs emotionally. I'd get high and I'd get low and I'd get high and I get low. And, and, and, and now this clarity, you know, that I have is just, it's incredible. You know, I just, it's just this steady, you know, it's this steady sort of joy, you know that I mean, because I had to face myself too. When you get clear, you have to. Things come up and then you look at them and you're like. And things that maybe you didn't want to look at before, you know.
- [39:35]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [39:35]
Lucas Nelson
Habits that you had or things in your past that you have to forgive yourself for that you didn't really. They're like floating in the back of your mind as unfinished thoughts. And so with. Without it, all of that masking, I was able to sit and. I mean, look, I was able to sit and write this record, which is the most clear album I've ever. You know, I wanted to know who I was throughout. Throughout the. Without all the. You know, I didn't want to chase a six minute guitar solo. I didn't want to chase. I wanted to just figure out who I was stripped away from all that. It's funny, there's this guy, Marcus Dowling, he's a. Writes for the Tennessean, and I was sitting talking to him in Nashville and he said that when I put. He was ready to listen to my record and he was about to have a whiskey and he. The first song comes up and he puts his whiskey down. He's like, oh, I don't want to drink for this. And I think that music puts you in the state of mind that the artist is in when they recorded it or when they wrote it. So this. This. It's. It's kind of almost like interesting that he decided to put his drink down when he heard this album, like the first song, because, like, that's where I'm at, you know? And so I wonder if there's that feeling of like this kind of like it's less of a jam band thing and more of just like straight songs.
- [40:58]
Joe Rogan
And there's probably definitely something to that because I think that's something that happens when someone's on stage performing. It's like you let them take over your mind, you know, you let the music in the song.
- [41:10]
Lucas Nelson
It's like creating a holographic bubble that you're all participating in this.
- [41:16]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [41:16]
Lucas Nelson
This vibe. Yeah. And it's. I mean, you were there at the McConaughey thing, which. It was an electric feeling, right?
- [41:24]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it was pretty wild.
- [41:25]
Lucas Nelson
It was wild.
- [41:25]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it was awesome.
- [41:26]
Lucas Nelson
And I felt like, you know, it was cool to see everyone there and just like, you know, there's also like.
- [41:33]
Joe Rogan
The added thing to that that, you know, they do that every year and it's a charity.
- [41:39]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [41:39]
Joe Rogan
All the money goes to. Good.
- [41:41]
Lucas Nelson
Given back.
- [41:42]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [41:42]
Lucas Nelson
And a lot of charities. There's just like five different charities that they were given to. McConaughey. He's a good guy.
- [41:48]
Joe Rogan
He's a great guy. He's a great Guy. He's a very wise man.
- [41:51]
Lucas Nelson
He is a wise man.
- [41:52]
Joe Rogan
Especially for someone who's an actor, you know? Yeah. A lot of them. And that's, again, that's a thing that I have to get over because I was around so many of them in LA that were fools that I just immediately associate acting with, like these empty vessels that are just struggling for attention and trying to say the things that they think will get them the best spot.
- [42:18]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I think that. Look, I mean, to become an entertainer, there's a level of, you know, self absorption, you know, that you have to sort of, like, accept. All right, I got a big ego now. Can I keep my ego in check for my whole life? Like, I think my dad has, you know.
- [42:39]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [42:39]
Lucas Nelson
I mean, I see my dad as a great example. I see Paul Simon is a great example.
- [42:43]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [42:44]
Lucas Nelson
I see, you know, Neil and, you know, I see these people that like that just. They're just artists through and through. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, you know, for better or worse, not perfect people, but they are who they are, and they. For the most part. I know my dad has an ego, but he has a good relationship with it because the ego is just the representation of who we are to the rest of the world, you know?
- [43:10]
Joe Rogan
Well, everyone has an ego.
- [43:11]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. We all do.
- [43:12]
Joe Rogan
And the struggle with the ego is just like the struggle with good and evil. I think part of it is necessary for you to overcome. You need that. You need those. And you also need to see people fall prey to it. We see that a lot.
- [43:27]
Lucas Nelson
Wren. There's an artist named Ren.
- [43:29]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [43:30]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, man. You'd love. You'd love his work. He's like a. He plays guitar and he sings. Amazing.
- [43:36]
Joe Rogan
Spell it.
- [43:37]
Lucas Nelson
R E N. R E N. He's from England, or he's from Wales. He's Welsh and he's. Yeah, this guy. Yeah. So he's got a song called. Listen to Something of this Higher End. Listen to Higher End.
- [43:48]
Joe Rogan
This is the one here. Put. Put the headphones on.
- [43:50]
Lucas Nelson
Okay.
- [43:51]
Joe Rogan
I've seen him for a while. He's like a. He started as a busker, kind of.
- [43:54]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [43:54]
Joe Rogan
Oh, one of them dudes at the, like, subway station.
- [43:58]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. This is a crazy song. It's about communicating with your ego.
- [44:06]
Joe Rogan
What a weird start to a video. Guy with a pig mask on.
- [44:10]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, man.
- [44:10]
Joe Rogan
Hyren.
- [45:14]
Lucas Nelson
Hi there, Rent. It's been a little while. Did you miss me? You thought you'd bury me, didn't you? Risky. Cause I always come back. Deep down, you know that. Deep down, you know Moment we simply ren on your pleased to see me? It's been weeks since we spoke, bro. I know you need me. You're the sheep, I'm the shepherd. Not your place to lead me not your place to be Batting off the hand that feeds me. Hi, Bran. I've been taking some time to be distant I've been taking some time to be still. I've been taking some time to be by myself since my therapist told me I'm ill. And I've been making some progress lately and I've learned so many coping skills, so I haven't really needed you much, man. I think we need to just step back and chill. Rent. You sound more insane than I. Do you think that those doctors are really there to guide you? Been through this a million times. Your civilian mind is so perfect to always beIN lied to. Okay, Take another pill, boy. Ground yourself in the sound of white noise follow this 10 steps program rejoice all your problems will be gone dumb boy. Nah, mate, this time is different, man. Trust me. I feel like things might be falling in place, right? He just has a whole conversation with his own mind, you know, his own ego.
- [46:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [46:16]
Lucas Nelson
And it. And it tries to tell him, you know, that he's not worth. And then he's like, no, wait, I'm getting myself together. And. And this whole conversation with him with. And. And then at the end it talks about where good and evil isn't a battle, it's a dance. And no one ever wins, you know, with their battle with their ego. It's always just a dance. And it's always just kind of finding balance, you know, and there's a song I have on my album called All God did, and it's actually the same concept, so. And I wrote it before I heard that, but then when I heard that, I was like, oh, shit, that's way better, you know, but it's great, you know, and it's super. It's beautifully written. I mean, you know, it's very cool. You could tell all his influences and then he just kind of adds onto.
- [47:01]
Joe Rogan
That, which is that dance is critical. You need that dance that dances. I think this is one of the problems that people that don't exercise. I think the struggle of exercise is oftentimes conflated with vanity. And I don't think it's that. I think you can keep your body covered up to the end of time and never be proud of it. And you will benefit greatly from the struggle of exercise. Because I think the struggle of exercise is. Is mental as Much as it is physical. There's a dance that's like. When I talk to Goggins about it, like, he's the most bizarre of all cases because he's doing it all in silence. He's doing it all by himself. And occasionally he lets people peer into it, but it's going on right now. Like, right now that guy's out there running probably 30 miles today.
- [47:52]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [47:53]
Joe Rogan
With destroyed knees.
- [47:54]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [47:54]
Joe Rogan
Like, he's a. He's a real freak. And when I talk to him about, he's like, I'm downloading knowledge. Yeah, that's what he says.
- [48:00]
Lucas Nelson
That's great.
- [48:01]
Joe Rogan
He's like, I'm in the lab and I'm downloading knowledge. Like, he's struggling in his own mind every day and forcing himself to do it every day. And then he brings elite athletes to try to keep up with him occasionally. Like, he brought Israel Adesanya. Israel Adesanya is former UFC middleweight champion. Like, one of the best fighters of all time. And you realize, like, he can't even keep up with Dave. Not even close. This is one of multiple workouts that Dave is doing in a day, and this guy can't keep up with him. And Dave's 50.
- [48:33]
Lucas Nelson
What was the part of the brain that gets enlarged that Huberman was talking about that gets enlarged when you do things you don't want to do?
- [48:43]
Joe Rogan
I always forget the name of it, but Jamie will pull it up.
- [48:45]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, yeah. Anterior mid.
- [48:51]
Joe Rogan
It should be like a. Easier name.
- [48:53]
Lucas Nelson
Cortex interior.
- [48:55]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, the discipline part.
- [48:57]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. That enlarges.
- [48:59]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [48:59]
Lucas Nelson
Throughout your life, when you do things that you force yourself to do.
- [49:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it literally does. It literally gets bigger.
- [49:04]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Joe Rogan
Which is crazy, you know, being. What is it, Jamie?
- [49:09]
Lucas Nelson
Anterior mig. Cigular cortex. You got it.
- [49:13]
Joe Rogan
Nice. Success. Mid singular. Cingulate cortex. Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Andrew Huberman.
- [49:20]
Lucas Nelson
There you go.
- [49:21]
Joe Rogan
Doing things you don't want to do can strengthen your brain, particularly the anterior mid cingulate cortex, which is associated with willpower and tenacity. That's incredible that it actually grows.
- [49:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [49:33]
Joe Rogan
You know, so willpower is not just a. It's not like an airy fairy concept. It's like a muscle.
- [49:40]
Lucas Nelson
No. It's incredible that willpower can be also. Can be enhanced.
- [49:45]
Joe Rogan
Yes, that.
- [49:46]
Lucas Nelson
That's. It just goes to brain plasticity, and that's a concept that I think a lot of people don't understand, is that we are not set in who we are.
- [49:59]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [50:00]
Lucas Nelson
We are if. Especially if we adopt a growth mindset.
- [50:05]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [50:06]
Lucas Nelson
That we. We are never set in who we Are we can always improve and refine the neural structure of our brain to where that it works more efficiently.
- [50:18]
Joe Rogan
Not just that, but you have to.
- [50:20]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [50:20]
Joe Rogan
There's. It never ends. Like, there's never a time when you're done with discipline. It's not. You don't just get it. And now I have discipline. No. Every day is a struggle. Goggin said that he goes, sometimes I stare at my sneakers for like a half hour before I put those motherfuckers on.
- [50:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, yeah. At like 4 in the morning, you know, every day. But here's the thing, is that it becomes a philosophical question, because when you say you have to, there are people who get by life. And there is a Tibetan tradition that the monks do where they spend months and they take these little flute things and they have colored sand and they all sit in a circle, and it takes them months sometimes to create this beautiful, intricate sand art. And they chant while they do it, and it's this most incredible thing. And at the end, they go and they blow it all away.
- [51:14]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Lucas Nelson
And it's meant to represent the impermanence of life, but then it's meant to also pose the question, why make something so beautiful when it's going to be when you know it's impermanent? And I believe it goes back to the first thing we started talking about today, which is that meaning is everything in life, and nothing really in life inherently has any meaning except the meaning we give it. Right, Right. So you could go. You could, like, go through life as sand on the beach that blows in the wind. And, you know, it wouldn't really mean much when you blow one way or another.
- [51:55]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [51:56]
Lucas Nelson
But if you choose to give your life meaning and build a sandcastle and make it as intricate and beautiful as you can and make it, like, you know, as detail as possible, knowing that one day it's going to get washed away. The only person that it matters to is you. And knowing that you did the best you could at that moment that the wave comes.
- [52:19]
Joe Rogan
If that's true, they should never let anybody film them making those things. They should never let anyone film them making those things, because then it becomes permanent. Someone can see it forever.
- [52:32]
Lucas Nelson
Sure. But.
- [52:33]
Joe Rogan
You know what I'm saying.
- [52:34]
Lucas Nelson
But yet again, I think it's for them anyways.
- [52:37]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [52:37]
Lucas Nelson
It's not for everyone else, but, like.
- [52:39]
Joe Rogan
When you let people peer into that world and you film it, there's something about that, like, okay, you just cheated it.
- [52:46]
Lucas Nelson
Well, in a way, it becomes permanent. But it also, I mean, is, you know, Just because you see it happening. Let's look at it.
- [52:54]
Joe Rogan
Can you find that?
- [52:54]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, sure. You could find it on there.
- [52:56]
Joe Rogan
I mean, I'm not dismissing it.
- [52:57]
Lucas Nelson
No, no, I think. But I think it's an interesting question because something that lives sometimes in our subjective reality, if you see a video of that happening and then you grasp the concept of it, and then that makes you consider that concept in yourself, understanding that the meaning is a subjective experience anyways, then now you understand, like. Okay, it just causes one to ask the question to themselves. And I think that's the purpose that the monks are. They're there as sort of like. In a way, they're teachers, you know, so they show you something that, like. Then you ask, you know, inside.
- [53:37]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. So what you were saying was that in response to the idea that everyone should exercise and discipline.
- [53:44]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, well. But it's like, you don't have to do that, but your life will have. You will experience a different sense of meaning.
- [53:53]
Joe Rogan
Sure.
- [53:53]
Lucas Nelson
You know, if you do that and that will. I think that's enough for me at least, because I'm driven by finding a sense of meaning. And I think maybe because of how I grew up, you know, maybe others aren't driven by that, you know, I.
- [54:08]
Joe Rogan
Think that's really important to say too, because you never know, like, what. What is driving one.
- [54:13]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [54:13]
Joe Rogan
I don't know how your brain works.
- [54:15]
Lucas Nelson
Exactly.
- [54:15]
Joe Rogan
I could only guess.
- [54:16]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [54:16]
Joe Rogan
I could only assume your brain works like mine.
- [54:19]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [54:19]
Joe Rogan
And that's silly. That's a silly thing to assume.
- [54:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. We don't even know if we see the same colors.
- [54:24]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [54:26]
Lucas Nelson
There it is.
- [54:26]
Joe Rogan
Oh, wow. That's so beautiful.
- [54:28]
Lucas Nelson
Isn't it?
- [54:29]
Joe Rogan
That's amazing. And then they're gonna. That up. It's. I wrote a piece once for God, it was Esquire or Maxim or one of those things about. Your body's like a sand castle.
- [54:43]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [54:43]
Joe Rogan
That you're. You're building this body, but one day it will be eroded. Now they're just sweeping it away. Yeah.
- [54:50]
Lucas Nelson
And then they like. Well, they'll dump the sand.
- [54:52]
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's kind of cool too, though, isn't it? It's kind of abstract as they swirl it. It's kind of beautiful, too.
- [54:57]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. But think how long that took them.
- [54:59]
Joe Rogan
Oh, my God, it must have taken forever. And they're scooping the sand up.
- [55:02]
Lucas Nelson
Scoop it up.
- [55:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Look at it doing it with like these little things.
- [55:05]
Lucas Nelson
They just tap on it. Look. Look at that.
- [55:07]
Joe Rogan
Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's kind of amazing.
- [55:11]
Lucas Nelson
I've always Loved this, that concept. Right. And I think that, you know. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't let you film it. I don't know, though. I'm like, I'm glad they did.
- [55:22]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, they're letting people watch it.
- [55:23]
Lucas Nelson
It.
- [55:24]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And, you know, just allowing people to see what the whole thing is, and it'll allow more people to understand the concept.
- [55:31]
Lucas Nelson
Well, that's kind of like Alan Watts, like, always says, you know, don't listen to what I'm saying.
- [55:36]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [55:36]
Lucas Nelson
Because the dao that can be spoken is not the real dao.
- [55:40]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [55:40]
Lucas Nelson
And yet here I am just loving the sound of my own voice and talking about it. You know what I mean? And, like, you know, so it's like, you know, that's. That's. That's the great paradox of the spiritual self and understanding what that means.
- [55:56]
Joe Rogan
Well, that's. That becomes readily apparent after you have a psychedelic experience. I remember one of my first ones that I had. I realized when I was trying to describe it, like, I'm trying to impress people with the way I use my words. I was very aware.
- [56:08]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [56:08]
Joe Rogan
I was like, oh, I'm trying to impress people with my grasp of language that I'm using to describe an experience. And I was like, oh, that's kind of gross.
- [56:17]
Lucas Nelson
One of the great. Of course, actually, when I started listening to you, it was in, like, 22,007, 2006, and it was. I was listening to a lot of Terence McKenna at the time, and Terence McKenna. Talk about someone who had a grasp on the English.
- [56:38]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, he was amazing.
- [56:39]
Lucas Nelson
What an incredible.
- [56:40]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [56:41]
Lucas Nelson
Like, I'd listen to his lectures, you know, that were available online.
- [56:44]
Joe Rogan
Psychedelic Salon is the best resource that's still up. Right. Lorenzo from Psychedelic Salon, who had been on the podcast before, back in the day, he's collected, like, the greatest assembly of McKenna, Alan Watts, Timothy Lee, Ram Dass, probably. Yes.
- [57:02]
Lucas Nelson
There's a Ram Dass conversation, I think, with Alan Watts.
- [57:06]
Joe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- [57:07]
Lucas Nelson
Somewhere out there, which is really interesting.
- [57:09]
Joe Rogan
Well, my friend Duncan became friends with Rom Dass.
- [57:12]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I actually met him in Hawaii one time.
- [57:14]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [57:15]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I got to meet him.
- [57:17]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Psychedelog Salon. So it is psychedelicsalon.com and there's Lorenzo. And Psychedelic Salon is like, this incredible resource of all the McKenna lectures he's. I mean, he has. Because it's such a great resource. So many people who were there at, like, you know, some talk that he gave in Hawaii at some conference room somewhere recorded it, and then they would send that to Lorenzo, and then he'd put it Online and have it available for everybody and, you know, some amazing insights and conversations.
- [57:54]
Lucas Nelson
He. He lived not too far from where I live in Maui, so I went on a whale watch with him one time.
- [58:02]
Joe Rogan
Really? With McKenna?
- [58:04]
Lucas Nelson
No, with.
- [58:05]
Joe Rogan
With Ram Dass.
- [58:06]
Lucas Nelson
Sorry.
- [58:06]
Joe Rogan
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [58:07]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, yeah. But not until. I think McKenna died in. When I was a kid, like, really early. Yeah, I think he died 95 or something.
- [58:15]
Joe Rogan
No, it's a little later than that. Oh, when. What year did McKenna die?
- [58:23]
Lucas Nelson
You're Jamie, right?
- [58:24]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, Jamie. 2000. 2000.
- [58:26]
Lucas Nelson
I heard you play golf. I do. And you were in a simulator earlier. I was. I. I was in a simulator last night to, like, my hands all blistered out. Yeah, I had that.
- [58:37]
Joe Rogan
We were having a conversation while we're getting espresso, and I was saying, I can't play music for the same reason I can't play golf.
- [58:44]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [58:45]
Joe Rogan
And then he shows me his hands. So he's. Yeah, we're all like.
- [58:48]
Lucas Nelson
And you're like, oh, that's what he was just doing back there. Yeah.
- [58:51]
Joe Rogan
Jamie's got this.
- [58:52]
Lucas Nelson
He's got the bug.
- [58:53]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's got it bad. Well, he wants to his friends up. Yeah.
- [58:57]
Lucas Nelson
It is a fun game.
- [58:58]
Joe Rogan
It's fun to make people mad. That's a weird motivation, but okay. Yeah, there.
- [59:08]
Lucas Nelson
There's. It's funny. Like the closest friends we have are sometimes, you know, the ones we give the most, though.
- [59:16]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, they're the ones that know you love them, so you can give them shit.
- [59:20]
Lucas Nelson
You can kind of.
- [59:20]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you can have. And it's fun.
- [59:22]
Lucas Nelson
There's nothing like that feeling of, like, having a friend that can take it and dole it out.
- [59:27]
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's why I love comedians.
- [59:29]
Lucas Nelson
Right, right, right.
- [59:30]
Joe Rogan
They're the best because they. You shit on them, they love it. They shit on themselves. Everyone's having fun. Yeah, you know.
- [59:35]
Lucas Nelson
Exactly. That's one of the great joys in life, I think.
- [59:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. The people that can't take that. Boy, you're missing out on a giant chunk of what it means to be a person. If you're so sensitive, you can't let people crack on you. Like, that's so silly.
- [59:47]
Lucas Nelson
Well, yeah. And you know. Yeah, exactly.
- [59:50]
Joe Rogan
You're missing out on a lot of the fun. You're missing out on half the laughs because half the laughs are at your own expense.
- [59:56]
Lucas Nelson
Exactly. I probably laughed harder at myself than at anyone else in my life, probably.
- [60:03]
Joe Rogan
That's a healthy perspective. Then you're a fairly healthy person.
- [60:06]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's Funny, you know, we're running around, you know, trying to find meaning in life and, you know, one day, you know, like, one day is a crazy thought, but one day the last remembrance of the human experience will happen.
- [60:23]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [60:24]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and it might be in our lifetime. I doubt it. I think it'll be. I think it'll be because even now we're uploaded into the AI system, you know, so, like, something will survive, you know? Some.
- [60:38]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, something. Well, whatever we are will lead to whatever comes next.
- [60:42]
Lucas Nelson
There's a great episode of Star Trek called the Inner Light. Have you ever seen that? The first Star Trek, the real one, the Next Generation.
- [60:49]
Joe Rogan
That's bullshit. Star Trek. Whoa.
- [60:54]
Lucas Nelson
Whoa, Them's fighting words.
- [60:57]
Joe Rogan
You're a Picard guy.
- [60:59]
Lucas Nelson
Hell, yeah, I'm a Picard guy. I'd vote for him right now. That's hilarious. Meanwhile, he probably could win diplomacy, man.
- [61:06]
Joe Rogan
So this is it, the Inner Light.
- [61:08]
Lucas Nelson
The Inner light. Here's a story. Okay, here's the story. They come across a probe, all right, because they're exploring space. Obviously, if you don't know Star Trek, you're exploring space. And the whole. Their whole mission is to go where no man has gone before, right? And so they find this probe, and as they're scanning the probe, it zaps Picard, and he goes unconscious. And he wakes up in this. On this world where he remembers the spaceship, he remembers where he was, but he's got a wife and a family and kids, and this world is being threatened by an exploding sun. And so he's got a lot of scientific knowledge. So he, over the next 20 years in this world.
- [61:49]
Joe Rogan
Wow.
- [61:50]
Lucas Nelson
He eventually grows old and accepts his fate that he has no idea how he got here, but he's got to live this life now. And he starts to love his wife and his kids. He starts to try and save this planet from the exploding sun. He ends up not being able to. And then as he dies, he wakes up back on the spaceship with only 20 seconds having gone by on the spaceship and the probe had been sent by that civilization. They knew they were going to be destroyed, so they uploaded this thing that, like, would let Picard experience what happened to their civilization and tell their story. Wow. And he did it, Experienced it. He experienced a lifetime of 40 or 25 whatever years before he died in the span of 20 seconds and then woke up at the moment of his death in that other life and then was able to now tell the story of this. Of this forgotten civilization in space.
- [62:49]
Joe Rogan
Whoa.
- [62:50]
Lucas Nelson
It's the coolest concept ever.
- [62:53]
Joe Rogan
Okay. I'll have to watch it now.
- [62:54]
Lucas Nelson
I mean, it's, you know, I just told you so.
- [63:01]
Joe Rogan
Do you know who Joseph McGonagall is?
- [63:03]
Lucas Nelson
No.
- [63:04]
Joe Rogan
Joseph McGonagall was like. He was remote viewer number one.
- [63:09]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, interesting.
- [63:10]
Joe Rogan
He was the first guy and they gave him an assignment once without him knowing, like, where he was looking into and what. It turned out that he was looking into Mars 1 million years ago. And when he looked into Mars a million years ago, Mars was falling apart. And there were beings on Mars, they were going into hibernation. They had built pyramids and all these structures and they had to leave Mars because Mars was being destroyed, their atmosphere was being destroyed and they had to come to Earth.
- [63:47]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [63:49]
Joe Rogan
What he surmised from that is that what we are is the children of the people of Mars. That's why we're so different from all the other primates.
- [63:58]
Lucas Nelson
There's a whole movie dedicated to that exact premise, really, called Mission to Mars.
- [64:03]
Joe Rogan
Who's in it?
- [64:05]
Lucas Nelson
I don't know. Is it Greg Kinnear maybe?
- [64:08]
Joe Rogan
Greg Kinnear.
- [64:09]
Lucas Nelson
No, I don't. Let's look at it because it's like a great movie and it's about that.
- [64:13]
Joe Rogan
I might have seen it now that I'm thinking Gary Sinise.
- [64:16]
Lucas Nelson
Gary Sinise. Gary Sinise.
- [64:18]
Joe Rogan
What year was this? 2000.
- [64:21]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [64:21]
Joe Rogan
Okay.
- [64:22]
Lucas Nelson
Mission to Mars. Yeah. And. And that's exactly the premise of the entire movie.
- [64:27]
Joe Rogan
And so the premise of the movie is that these people, they go on.
- [64:31]
Lucas Nelson
A mission to Mars, they see like a structure on the surface of Mars. So they go and they check it out.
- [64:36]
Joe Rogan
Whoa.
- [64:37]
Lucas Nelson
And then, like, that's the whole thing.
- [64:40]
Joe Rogan
And they realize that Mars. But, you know, this is not outside of the realm of possibility.
- [64:45]
Lucas Nelson
No, not at all.
- [64:46]
Joe Rogan
One of the reasons why I say that is, like, they found recent. They've recently found structures on Mars that are so obviously man made that it's almost impossible to deny. Like, I showed it to Elon and he's like, oh, we should go look at it.
- [65:02]
Lucas Nelson
Here's the thing about, like, have you seen that?
- [65:04]
Joe Rogan
Do you know what I'm talking about? Show them this. This. The square on Mars. So there's this. In the 1970s, they took satellite photos of what looked like a face on Mars in Cydonia. Kind of weird. Yeah, kind of weird. But it's hard to say if that's like. There's things on Earth that look like faces. That is just like. It's just a natural formation.
- [65:26]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [65:26]
Joe Rogan
But then they found this. This is recent. Look at that. I Mean, what the is that, man? Look at those right angles. Look at that. That's on Mars.
- [65:36]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, and that's interesting.
- [65:39]
Joe Rogan
That may have been a structure.
- [65:42]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I mean, look, it's two complete.
- [65:44]
Joe Rogan
It's too square. It's a square. I mean, look, I actually might be a rectangle. Right? Is it kind of a rectangle?
- [65:51]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I don't know. We'd have to measure it. I'm sure they can measure it with, you know, throughout. You know, I just. Here's the thing. When I looked at remote viewing, for example, and I really looked and did research on it, the studies that were done apparently were kind of discredited about how the effectiveness of those actually were. So if you like really dive in, there's literature that says that, that it wasn't really the reason that they, you know, apparently now this is all like.
- [66:21]
Joe Rogan
But it.
- [66:21]
Lucas Nelson
But conflicting information.
- [66:23]
Joe Rogan
I had Hal put off on who was a remote viewer and who's involved in the remote viewer. The Stargate.
- [66:29]
Lucas Nelson
Right. So what does he say about the. The idea that like that, you know, the actual studies were not that, like, like conclusive. And then, you know, that's why they.
- [66:37]
Joe Rogan
Depends on who's doing it. I know what's the methodology, but they were ever. They were able to accurately find, within a small radius, a downed Russian spacecraft. So a Russian spacecraft that reentered orbit and crashed. It was a spacecraft or an aircraft. Do you remember, Jamie? But they used remote viewers and the Russians couldn't find it, and they found it. And this is you're talking about in like a vast expanse of wilderness. It could have been anywhere. But they found the area where it was. They also found a Russian factory that was making an enormous nuclear submarine. They found it, accurately described it, the dimensions of it. They knew where it was and it was an accurate location. Not just the thing that was being hidden, but where it was, the dimensions of it. I don't know, dismiss it.
- [67:31]
Lucas Nelson
I can't dismiss anything. I just know that like, when I looked up like, UFO experiences and like, you know, this, this disclosure stuff that's happening lately and, you know, I mean, I'm a huge. I'm not just a believer. I'm, I'm a. I pray that there is someone out there disarming nuclear missiles. As you know, especially right now, like, you know, my great hope is that there is someone just trying to like, you know, not step in, but oversee it to the point where we, hopefully we can survive to a point of having an interstellar civilization. You know, it would be, it's the great dream of humanity. Right. You know, sure.
- [68:12]
Joe Rogan
But we have to be a different civilization than we are now. You do the same shit.
- [68:16]
Lucas Nelson
That's the thing is that, and that's what I, you know, I, I was always. Even before Elon was as famous as he is now. When I was like 15, I read his book and the one thing that I, you know, I'm a friend of what was his book he read? It was like a book about him maybe. Okay, but. And I don't remember, but what I really wanted the focus to be on was let's put all these resources into getting this planet right first. Let's put everything we have. And you know, it felt at the time like, okay, well, yes, we're spending all this money to go off and maybe we're hopeless. It's possible that we're hopeless. And it sounds like that's where they err on this. You know, it's like, oh, well, humanity on Earth is just, is just over. We just have to go somewhere else. But then if we go somewhere else, we're just going to do the same thing, like you're saying. So, like, all of the resources, in my opinion, should be focused on like. Like there's devices that they have invented that can be put in river mouths around the world to filter out pollution and plastics going into the ocean.
- [69:28]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [69:29]
Lucas Nelson
And it's like this incredible technology. If the budgets were spent towards these innovations, and maybe AI will help it. Right now AI is kind of a tax on the planet in terms of it's not very good for it, but maybe the AI technology itself will then invent something that makes itself more efficient for the planet.
- [69:51]
Joe Rogan
What do you mean by as a tax?
- [69:52]
Lucas Nelson
Well, because the energy required for the servers and all of that is so, you know, it drains a lot of resource.
- [70:00]
Joe Rogan
Right, Right.
- [70:01]
Lucas Nelson
And so, but what AI may do is help us create like an ion battery or something that like that, like makes energy give off less. You know, you can have this much more energy with way less heat and way less.
- [70:14]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [70:14]
Lucas Nelson
And so then you can create, you know, instead of having to have giant warehouses full of servers, you can have just, you know, us. Like, I mean, like, it's the same stuff that happened with the computer, right. Where the computer required a giant building when it was first created and now you have computers smaller than a.
- [70:34]
Joe Rogan
Just to be clear, Elon's position is not. The Earth is like that humans are helpless or hopeless and we have to just leave Earth. It's not that. It's that life Is so fragile here because of the possibility not just of us fucking it up, but of natural disasters and that we need to become interstellar in order to propagate life and to survive. And so we can carry on this growth that we're involved in as a human species. Because there's. I mean they just. What was the number that they just found a bunch of new asteroids? Like the possibility of us being hit by a near earth object is extremely high over the next X amount of hundreds of years. It's extremely high. And these things might not wipe everything out, but they'll start civilization all over again. They'll bring us back to cave people. So the idea was that the more places that we are, the more likelihood that the human race survives. It's not just that we are gonna fuck this up.
- [71:35]
Lucas Nelson
And I appreciate wanting the human race to survive, don't get me wrong, you.
- [71:38]
Joe Rogan
Know, but it should be better than it is now.
- [71:41]
Lucas Nelson
I want us to learn our lessons on this planet. Yeah, I think that that's even more important than surviving. I mean here's the thing. When you ask yourself, when someone asks themselves have I lived a life worth living? Is it, is a life worth living someone who lives a very long time? Or is a life worth living someone who's lived a good life? And maybe for shorter. So is what is the ultimate effect that humanity has on the natural world and environment? Are we, do we deserve to be space faring? And if we do, then I say let's go. But I mean, I think served by whose judgment? Well, I mean, I mean by my own individual judgment at this point, you.
- [72:26]
Joe Rogan
Know, but I mean, I mean are we better than the lions who killed the gazelles?
- [72:31]
Lucas Nelson
No, but the lions, everyone who all the natural world works cyclically. The way that the lion kills the gazelle and the way that the alligator takes the tourist. Yeah, exactly. Everything works with balance in nature. You have just enough give and take, it's work that way for years and then yes, extinctions, events happen and then things die out and they. But there has never been a creature on the planet with the ability like we have to take as much resource as we can without replenishing that or balancing that out.
- [73:11]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [73:12]
Lucas Nelson
So we I think have a responsibility as humanity to understand how to balance ourselves with the. And harmonize with nature. And I think that's where my great hope is, is that we figure out how to find a cyclical arrangement with nature. Just like photosynthesis, just like plants give us oxygen and then the carbon dioxide we breathe, then the Plants then sequester.
- [73:45]
Joe Rogan
Well, our disconnection to nature might be a part of our disconnection to psychedelics. That might be one of the reasons why we're disconnected, is we're lacking a crucial element that's there to humble the human species.
- [73:58]
Lucas Nelson
Yes.
- [73:58]
Joe Rogan
I think that's the great key. Humility. Humility. I think that's part of it. I really do. And I think that these monsters that were trying to silence the anti war and the civil rights movement in the 1970s by making those things illegal, they essentially, they hampered our development, but not all of it. Right. So our technological development continued, but our spiritual development ceased.
- [74:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And intellect devoid of wisdom is dangerous.
- [74:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, for sure. Especially like overcome with ego intellect. Overcome with ego is like really disgusting.
- [74:33]
Lucas Nelson
And the thing about it is that no one believes they're a monster.
- [74:38]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [74:39]
Lucas Nelson
Everyone justifies their behavior when they think they're doing good. I mean, with the exception of, like I said, a few sociopathic, completely devoid of empathy individuals, you know.
- [74:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [74:51]
Lucas Nelson
But for the most part, everyone. Everyone justifies their behavior.
- [74:56]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [74:57]
Lucas Nelson
For themselves, they don't. They judge themselves. And then they somehow make it. Well, because I'm doing this. Because I'm doing this, you know, I. You know, I can sleep at night. And so they let themselves sleep at night. And a lot of times they should be looking at themselves and changing, but they don't, you know.
- [75:14]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [75:14]
Lucas Nelson
And like, so that's why my policy is I try to just always look at myself and see is this actually beneficial for not just me, but for the people around me. You know, music has been one of the great things in life that is a win win, you know?
- [75:29]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [75:29]
Lucas Nelson
It's always a win win.
- [75:31]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
- [75:33]
Lucas Nelson
You know, it's like, wow, I'm so lucky to just be able to observe, be able to play, be able to sleep.
- [75:40]
Joe Rogan
Well, you're a chef for the soul. You know, like a chef provides food. It's a win win. People eat, it's wonderful. You enjoy the food. Oh, man, it sustains you. And I think music is. That's a lot of what a musician is. You're a chef for the soul.
- [75:57]
Lucas Nelson
Jimi Hendrix. You're a huge fan.
- [75:59]
Joe Rogan
Huge.
- [76:00]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. He was. Other than my dad, it was Jimmy and Stevie Ray Vaughan. And Stevie Ray. Being here in Austin, I sort of had a special affinity for. Even though Hendrix, Steve Ray is the.
- [76:14]
Joe Rogan
Only one who's allowed to do Voodoo Child other than Hendrix.
- [76:18]
Lucas Nelson
I think you're probably right there, you.
- [76:20]
Joe Rogan
Know, I mean, I Mean, other people can. I'm just joking around.
- [76:22]
Lucas Nelson
No, no, I think I actually heard you say that with Charlie. And I was like, yeah, I think I agree.
- [76:26]
Joe Rogan
Kind of. Right. Because he's the only one that I can listen to where I go. Yeah, yeah. This is like a Stevie Ray version of Voodoo Child.
- [76:32]
Lucas Nelson
Well. And he was a disciple of Hendrix. He was. You know, he really sat and. You know, and really lived that life. And that's the thing that I learned. That was the best lesson I learned. It goes back to why I am sober now and where I'm at is because I think the greatest lie I ever believed for so long. I did 15 years on the road, you know, 250 shows a year. And I told myself I had to live like my heroes in order to be, you know? And I think. I think. I think that's what. It didn't kill Stevie Ray, but it derailed him for a long time before he got sober. You know, Stevie Ray died in a tragic accident, obviously, you know, just. That's what happened.
- [77:17]
Joe Rogan
But I almost had a chance to drive him.
- [77:19]
Lucas Nelson
Really?
- [77:20]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I was driving limousines for this limousine company in Boston, and we're supposed to. He's supposed to take a limousine, but he wouldn't take limousines. He would take California. He always wanted to take abs. So I drove this limousine. I drove Jeff Beck once. I drove Annie Lennox's crew. I didn't drive.
- [77:38]
Lucas Nelson
I love Annie Lennox. She's beautiful. She's amazing.
- [77:40]
Joe Rogan
I went. I had to drop off the crew at this restaurant, and Annie Lennox was talking, and her voice was so powerful. It's like, the way I described it, I was like. Her vocal cords were made out of, like, piano wire because, like, her voice was carrying in the room. And I was. Was at the time, I was 20 maybe. And I remember, like, watching her talk. Oh, this is crazy. Like, this lady's voice is, like, traveling. Like, it's. It has a different power than everyone else in the. In the restaurant.
- [78:13]
Lucas Nelson
The voice is such an incredible thing, is it not? I mean.
- [78:16]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [78:16]
Lucas Nelson
You know, the power of a vocal core. Like, look at James Earl Jones.
- [78:20]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Right, Yeah.
- [78:22]
Lucas Nelson
You know, like, to change Darth Vader, by the way. Darth Vader. Yeah.
- [78:26]
Joe Rogan
Darth Vader.
- [78:27]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And he lived to be, what, 95? Something like, how long did. I mean, he was crazy, and he was still doing that. Yeah, that's. There are certain ones, but Stevie Ray didn't.
- [78:40]
Joe Rogan
Wouldn't take limos. Like, this limo he wanted to get. He liked to talk to Cab drivers like to get in a cab, and he liked to just keep it real.
- [78:48]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, man.
- [78:48]
Joe Rogan
Even though he was a superstar, he didn't want to be treated like one. You just wanted to be normal.
- [78:52]
Lucas Nelson
Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been in, like, Ubers or Lyfts or what do, you know, whatever. Just sitting and, like, chatting about, like, where they're from and, like, how they got there. And, like, there's a lot of incredible stories that.
- [79:06]
Joe Rogan
Sure.
- [79:07]
Lucas Nelson
You know, of, like, you know, perseverance.
- [79:10]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [79:11]
Lucas Nelson
You know, escaping certain situations.
- [79:13]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. I mean, and then, you know, this. Everybody's got their own little journey. And sometimes you dip into someone's journey and go, what are you doing, man? What's going on?
- [79:23]
Lucas Nelson
What you have to do? I was trying to learn a little bit of the language, too. Like, how do you say this?
- [79:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [79:28]
Lucas Nelson
You know, there's something, like. There's something that just makes people, I think, really drop their defenses when you submit yourself with humility to learn their language. Until I say, you know what? I'm not like, look, thank you for driving me. I'm so glad you're here.
- [79:45]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [79:45]
Lucas Nelson
How do you say thank you?
- [79:46]
Joe Rogan
Right, right, right, right. How do you correctly pronounce your name exactly?
- [79:50]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, yeah.
- [79:51]
Joe Rogan
Well, you know, I work for the ufc, so there's a lot of people that I have to ask them tell me how to say your name, because some of these names are just insane. Like, some of the names from Dagestan or from, you know, Kazakhstan, there's so many places where, like, Shavkat Rachmanov, like, Jesus Christ. Like, it takes forever, and I have to. I can't fuck their names up.
- [80:14]
Lucas Nelson
No, I'm glad that you think that.
- [80:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [80:16]
Lucas Nelson
Because that's a beautiful thing.
- [80:17]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's interesting. I'm fascinated by the different sounds that people choose to use as their language in different places. It's like human beings evolved in all these different places with all these different ways of communicating. Oh, yeah, they're all different.
- [80:33]
Lucas Nelson
What's the clicking? In Africa, there's a musician, and I can't remember for the life of me her name. Which is it? Maybe Angelique Kijo. But no, but she sings in, and she uses the clicks and then just does this. Oh, my gosh.
- [80:50]
Joe Rogan
She uses the clicks in her singing inner music.
- [80:52]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, it's so beautiful. Oh, man.
- [80:54]
Joe Rogan
Oh, you gotta wonder, like, what. What caused them to develop that kind of language? You know, it's like they're all developing it in a vacuum. Right. Because they're all the people in that area, in that community, generation after generation after generation, all agree to communicate in this certain way.
- [81:11]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [81:11]
Joe Rogan
You know, and then they run into people in China, and you're like, jesus, this is so different.
- [81:15]
Lucas Nelson
And in China, there's, like, I don't know how many different dialects.
- [81:18]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- [81:18]
Lucas Nelson
You know?
- [81:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [81:19]
Lucas Nelson
And they're different. Like, completely different.
- [81:21]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. Well, my grandparents were from Italy, and they spoke a Sicilian dialect.
- [81:25]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, I'm Sicilian, too. Oh, that's the other side. Yeah.
- [81:28]
Joe Rogan
But I remember me, like, learning Italian in college, and it was so different than the way that they were speaking.
- [81:37]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [81:38]
Joe Rogan
Italian.
- [81:38]
Lucas Nelson
Well, and I think. I'm not certain, but Dean Martin had a specific. And it may have been Sicilian or maybe a specific northern Italian or Napoli, maybe it's. But the way that he would sing Domenico Moduno's song, you know, volare tenso que un sono cosi non return. And he would do it and he'd go. He'd have these, like, slang in his version. It's quite. It's quite different, the Italian. If you listen to both of them together.
- [82:13]
Joe Rogan
Interesting.
- [82:14]
Lucas Nelson
It's really interesting.
- [82:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Dialects are weird, right. So it's like, people learn how. Well, I mean, look, in America, right, You can go to, like, New Orleans.
- [82:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [82:23]
Joe Rogan
And people have a completely different way of talking than people do in New York City.
- [82:27]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, yeah, yeah. Have you. Have you heard about the new. Speaking of AI the new adventures that we're now embarking on, Some scientists, they're, like, using AI to communicate with animals, like whales.
- [82:40]
Joe Rogan
I saw that with cats. I saw that today. That a lot.
- [82:44]
Lucas Nelson
I saw that today.
- [82:45]
Joe Rogan
Yes. AI is translating cat language with, like, 95% accuracy. They think they know what cats are saying to each other.
- [82:54]
Lucas Nelson
Now. Do you think that will have an effect on how we treat animals, if we're able to communicate with.
- [82:59]
Joe Rogan
Probably, yeah. Well, I'm sure you've seen dogs, when people say I love you, and they go, yeah, yeah. You know, like, there's something there. Yeah. They're trying to say I love you. They just don't have the same lips.
- [83:10]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And they're very. Dogs will. You know, they're very good at mimicking.
- [83:15]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- [83:16]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and behavior.
- [83:18]
Joe Rogan
Well, they certainly understand language because I talk to my dog. Like a person. I talk to him.
- [83:22]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [83:23]
Joe Rogan
Like, I can say, come on, man, is it time to go outside? What do you. What do you want to do? You want to get crazy? And they're like. Like, he knows what I'm saying. Like, I can, I don't have to say it in a certain tone. I can just say no, he knows.
- [83:37]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, it was funny. My dad, you know, Roger Miller? You hear Roger Miller.
- [83:40]
Joe Rogan
It's Roger Miller.
- [83:42]
Lucas Nelson
Trailers for sale or rent. Room still at 50 Cent. You know, King of the road.
- [83:49]
Joe Rogan
Oh, King of the road.
- [83:52]
Lucas Nelson
So my dad, dad and him were good friends and he used to joke. He tell a lot of great jokes. But one of them was. It's true. You start what they say, you start looking like your dog. I just got chewed out by the neighbor for shitting in their front yard.
- [84:09]
Joe Rogan
He's got.
- [84:10]
Lucas Nelson
My dad has so many amazing jokes.
- [84:13]
Joe Rogan
Well, you. It must have been really interesting the people that your dad brought around.
- [84:19]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. One of the greatest moments I ever felt like I was a part of was just a sort of a normal afternoon. And I was in Hawaii and I was at my parents house there and it was. Me and dad were sitting around and Kris Kristofferson walks by and in behind walks in. They're on their way to the airport or coming from the airport or whatever. And in walks in with him, Muhammad Ali.
- [84:46]
Joe Rogan
Whoa.
- [84:47]
Lucas Nelson
And so I'm sitting there and me and dad are just picking and Muhammad comes and sits down and Chris is on one side of him and dad's on the other. And I'm the one who got the guitar. And so we just start singing for him. And he's shaking. He can't speak really, you know, but you could just see me and dad and Chris were just like serenading Muhammad Ali one afternoon. And we sang Help Me Make it through the Night. We sang Always on My Mind. I sang one of my song, you know, so it's just like, it was like a, a beautiful afternoon. I'll never forget that moment.
- [85:22]
Joe Rogan
It must have been so strange to be constantly surrounded by these exceptional people. Not just exceptional, but exceptional worldwide. Like the way they're received worldwide. Like these are like iconic humans. Like Chris Christopherson is like an iconic human being. Muhammad Ali is an iconic human being.
- [85:39]
Lucas Nelson
Yes. He's. And the, and the key language there is human being. Well, rounded, thoughtful, empathetic.
- [85:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [85:53]
Lucas Nelson
I mean, wise, you know, wise. And these people are, you know, they, they made their life their world. Jimi Hendrix, I think, was famous in saying that. You, you, you know, your art isn't just the music. It's your life. You make your life the work of art. And that's what I mean. He had no problem with all the colors that he used in his whole life. He had no problem expressing himself in many Other forms, other than how he dressed and how he worked, everything was an expression of who he was in his art. And I'm grateful to have been exposed to a lot of those people in my life.
- [86:31]
Joe Rogan
It's a very exceptional childhood in that regard, because for some people, they grow up. And I remember the first time I ever met a really famous person, like, whoa, this is weird. You know, like, it was probably my. Other than, like, seeing Jeff Beck and seeing Annie Lennox, I never really met them. You know, I didn't really start meeting famous people until I became a comedian, then really meeting famous people until I got on television.
- [86:54]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [86:54]
Joe Rogan
And then it was just. It was odd. Was just so. It was. And still to this day, sometimes I'll have someone in here, like, had Bono in here. And it's just weird to me. Like, one of my first Bono memories, I was. I was like, 25 years ago, I was doing mushrooms, and I was listening to In God's country, and I got to tell that Tabano.
- [87:12]
Lucas Nelson
Wow.
- [87:12]
Joe Rogan
It was one of the wildest versions of your songs. Like, looking out over this canyon while that song was playing.
- [87:19]
Lucas Nelson
That's beautiful, though.
- [87:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. But it's just weird, you know, to just accept that they're human beings because you see them on television, you see them in all these things, and you grow to realize, like, oh, we're all just human beings. And, like, that's part of the lesson of it, is to meet someone who you don't think is just a human being, and you realize, like, oh, all of us are human beings.
- [87:42]
Lucas Nelson
That's a great lesson. I mean, and when I think that I was able to understand fame and its trappings at a young age, and that's. I'm. You know, that's something I'm also very grateful for, that I was able to see, like, okay, a lot of dad's friends, a lot of the people that I grew up around, didn't make it very long because they got into this or they got into that or they, you know, or. And I see it happening a lot to a lot of young people that are unable to handle fame.
- [88:12]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- [88:12]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and fame is not inherently a good thing. I think it's actually probably a net negative. Although it's a necessary thing if you want your art to get out to as many people as possible, or if you want to create a living. Like, I don't depend on my parents, so I want my music to get out there so that I'll have a career when I'm 90 I want to be playing and you know, I don't want to. I don't. I mean, eventually I have to keep making a living, you know, so you.
- [88:37]
Joe Rogan
Have to be a little famous.
- [88:38]
Lucas Nelson
You think there's a part of you that hat that, you know, part of the entertainment world where you have to make sure you have to put yourself out there. And that's kind of despite knowing that when you put yourself out there, then all the, you know that you get unwanted attention too. I think one of the worst things about it is the scammers on the Internet. There's so many scammers now on Instagram and Facebook and everyone. And they prey on elderly people.
- [89:08]
Joe Rogan
Oh yeah.
- [89:09]
Lucas Nelson
And they prey on.
- [89:10]
Joe Rogan
You mean scam. Pretend they're you.
- [89:12]
Lucas Nelson
They pretend that they're me. And they go out there and these people are. I think they're the lowest form on this planet really, because these are people that have dementia issues. They have, you know, they're elderly, you know, and they prey on that demographic specifically because they know that they're more gullible and don't understand technology. And they think that I'm talking to them and they'll give in some cases, thousands and thousands of dollars of their own savings in my name. And that has almost made me get off the Internet many times. But even so, what happens when I get off is. And they just run rampant it, you know, they create new accounts and then the people that are, you know, sort of. And they, they don't want to believe it's not me, of course, you know. And so like the people that are caught in it get caught and they get hooked, you know, I remember watching.
- [90:06]
Joe Rogan
This documentary once and it was about people that get scammed romantically online, right? And there's this guy who's this lonely man who's in his 60s and he had this girlfriend that he was communicating with in Europe that was non existent. And he flew over there twice to meet her. And every time she conveniently couldn't meet him totally. And his wife, his daughter rather, was trying to explain to him that it wasn't real, that he was getting scammed, that he didn't want to believe it. And in the documentary you could see like this guy, like coming to grips with it but not wanting to believe it. And like, oh, something just came up. She couldn't go. She loves me.
- [90:45]
Lucas Nelson
It's the saddest thing that just happened to us recently. I played a show with Eric Church at Chiefs and I had a bunch of friends and everything and I. And we had someone show up at the door saying that they had been given, they had been put on the list by me, that I was in a relationship with that person.
- [91:01]
Joe Rogan
And you said they weren't just schizophrenic.
- [91:03]
Lucas Nelson
Well, these people are in some cases schizophrenic or they have Alzheimer's or dementia or memory issues or whatever. But a lot of times they're just being catfished, you know, or just like, you know, like. I mean, I've seen. There is that show Catfish that was on TV not too long ago. I don't know if it's still around. But like these are otherwise sort of normal people that get. They get tricked into believing they're in a relationship and they have a girlfriend and they're online and they get to the place and you know, these are like sometimes younger people that even get. It just shows you how easily sometimes even intelligent people can be manipulated. For sure, you know.
- [91:42]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, well, it's just the perils of dealing with this non material world.
- [91:47]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [91:47]
Joe Rogan
Dealing with the Internet world. With dealing.
- [91:49]
Lucas Nelson
I mean. And I'm sure it happened in some ways back in the day, you know, with letters and things like that, with everything.
- [91:55]
Joe Rogan
I mean, snake oil salesmen. I mean, I was reading. Oh no, I was watching Cody Tucker today. He had something about this guy who was treating people for cataracts. And it didn't really treat them and actually blinded them. And he had done it to two different famous composers. This one guy was like. And he was a traveling guy, he would go from town to town and do things like that. There's always been people like that. There's always.
- [92:23]
Lucas Nelson
I mean, and you ask yourself, do those people have any like conscience, you know, at that a certain point? What are they telling themselves to justify their behavior?
- [92:35]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they're probably just getting by. And probably they've been fucked over too. Yeah, most of those people have been fucked over to the point where they can justify fucking over other people. Like those people have it coming, you know, someone did it to me, I'm gonna do it to them. This is the game we play.
- [92:49]
Lucas Nelson
What is the antidote to that?
- [92:54]
Joe Rogan
You know, I think those people exist. So you can appreciate people that don't do that. Yeah, I think, I think that's where like heartless, nasty, vicious people exist. It's like, have you ever been in a relationship with someone who's just like a real shithead? Just mean, nasty, insulting, gaslighting. Yeah. And trying to diminish you as a person. And then you meet someone who's not like that. And you're like, oh, if I didn't know someone who sucked, maybe I wouldn't appreciate this person totally, you know? And like, that's the beauty. Like, one time, me and my friend Brian, we went on this hunting trip with my friend Steve Rinella to this island in Alaska. And we were there for a week getting rained on every day. It was miserable, just freezing, shivering. Every day for a week. Then I came back to LA and the sun felt so good. It never felt that good. I've been living in LA for 25 years. It never felt that good. But I appreciate the sun. Why did I appreciate the sun? Because I'd just been rained on for a week. I had taken it for granted, this beautiful, amazing sunlight that I just go, oh, it's fucking sunny day. Where's my sunglasses? Let me drive to work and get inside real quick because it's too fucking bright out, you know? And I didn't. But because of the rain, for a week of rain, I really felt it. And I remember calling my friend Steve. I have never been happier. And that's why is because it sucked for a week. And I think you need that. I think you need shitty people so that you appreciate good people. And I think when you meet someone who's gaslighty and you know, someone who tries to ruin your life, like those people exist so that you can appreciate people that aren't like that. The yin and yang of life.
- [94:40]
Lucas Nelson
The great. Another great example of that is when you have to pee so bad, Right? And then that moment when you get to the toilet.
- [94:50]
Joe Rogan
Beer drinkers understand that.
- [94:51]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, man.
- [94:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [94:52]
Lucas Nelson
Or when you're sick and you, you know, and then you're like, oh, man, it's almost like you can't even remember how it felt to feel good. And then when you feel good, you're like, wow, I'm so grateful that I feel good. It's an amazing feeling.
- [95:04]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That is the thing we take for granted more than anything is personal health. And you give up personal health for short time, short term experiences, like, you know, drinking. Like, drinking is terrible for your health, but you give it up. You give up these little chunks of your health for these, like, small bursts of release of inhibition, you know?
- [95:26]
Lucas Nelson
Right. Yeah. I never really liked it anyways. It never really actually put me in too often. I always was like, I wish I hadn't.
- [95:37]
Joe Rogan
It puts you in bad spots.
- [95:39]
Lucas Nelson
I feel like, I think the people, and I've read this, that the people who actually sort of drink and become like happier with the life of the party or whatever are the ones who are more likely to become addicted, obviously.
- [95:54]
Joe Rogan
Oh, for sure.
- [95:54]
Lucas Nelson
You know, because there are. There is, like. There are two types of people that when. When they drink. Like, for me, when I drink, it kind of makes me think more and I get kind of depressed and I get, like, kind of, like, down and, like, I don't really actually.
- [96:06]
Joe Rogan
Well, you're a sensitive artist. Literally. That's literally what you do.
- [96:12]
Lucas Nelson
Hold on. You're right.
- [96:15]
Joe Rogan
Now you can lean into that. Yeah, that's a weird thing, too. People lean into that sensitivity. They lean into it. They carry it around as a badge of courage. You know, it's just fine. It's okay. But, you know, that's. Those are the type of people that. I mean, that's why it feels so good for them.
- [96:31]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, exactly.
- [96:33]
Joe Rogan
When you. When, you know, you drink and then you just, like, become overly sensitive and think about things, it's just like. That's because you have a lot of empathy. And the alcohol, the release of inhibition makes you, like, be overwhelmed by the empathy.
- [96:47]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [96:47]
Joe Rogan
Be overwhelmed by thinking. I mean, you know, the world is filled with a lot of weird shit, man. And it's like there's all these different channels that you can tune into all these different things that you can focus on.
- [96:56]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I think that, you know, the ice bath analogy for me is like, I love the clarity that I get after an ice bath. And I feel like sobriety gives me that, you know, it's just like. It's just like this great awake, alive feeling, and I'm living in that clarity.
- [97:16]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's a perfect example.
- [97:17]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [97:18]
Joe Rogan
Because you have to go through it to get there.
- [97:20]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [97:20]
Joe Rogan
You get out of that ice bath, you feel so fucking good. Why do you feel so fucking good? Because for three minutes, you feel like you're gonna die. Literally. The benefit of it, and what's fascinating to me is I watch all these people try to dismiss it, and all these people try to say, you know, it's foolish and silly and, like, the one thing those people all have in common dismiss is they all lack discipline. They all are fighting it intellectually. They're fighting whatever that fucking mid cingulate cortex thing.
- [97:50]
Lucas Nelson
Anterior mid cingulate cortex.
- [97:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Theirs is weak as fuck and they don't like it. And so they try to diminish the people that do have it. You know, they try to diminish it, which is just a compensation thing that people do. People are always doing that. And, you know, those voices are important, too, because Those voices like you go, oh, I know why you're doing that. Even the gaslighty people like, oh, I know why you're doing that.
- [98:12]
Lucas Nelson
Well, it's helped me get through life understanding people and that their, their behavior comes from their own trauma and their own past.
- [98:22]
Joe Rogan
Sure. And the thing that you hate in other people, oftentimes you hate it because you're terrified of seeing it in yourself.
- [98:28]
Lucas Nelson
Well, that's the great. That's the great lesson, you know, I mean, and, or, or, and it doesn't mean that. But here's what I think. It doesn't mean that you are that. It just means that you're afraid of that inside.
- [98:40]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, yeah. It doesn't necessarily mean you are that.
- [98:42]
Lucas Nelson
But I think that, yes, it's like what you're most afraid of.
- [98:48]
Joe Rogan
Because you know it exists in you.
- [98:49]
Lucas Nelson
Because everything exists in all of us. We're the exploded universe in manifested motion. We are the unfolding universe every moment.
- [98:58]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And when you get angry at foolishness that you see in other people, what you're angry at is that that thing could be. It could be in you. And it is in you. It's just you haven't fed it. It's the wolf you haven't fed.
- [99:12]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And discipline helps with that. It helps you to understand that you are responsible for your feelings.
- [99:19]
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yeah, you're responsible for your feelings. And also, like, there's things that you can do that can make life more bearable. And one of those things is physical exertion. It makes life more bearable. And the way I realize this is when I don't exercise for like three or four days in a row, which is very rare.
- [99:37]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, yeah.
- [99:38]
Joe Rogan
But when it does happen, I start getting really weird and anxious and I'm like, oh my God, people like this all day. Like some people like this their whole life where they just riddled with anxiety and all. Everything is a crisis. Every little mo. Every fucking moment is unbearable. I'm like, oh, this makes sense. This makes sense in our sedentary, weird world. Or people just sitting and staring at a screen all day and.
- [100:02]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [100:02]
Joe Rogan
You know, and not doing things. So you're not. You don't have. You don't have meaning. Right. And then you're just overwhelmed.
- [100:11]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [100:11]
Joe Rogan
And then, you know, then you'll find a protest, go out there and start fucking screaming in the streets.
- [100:16]
Lucas Nelson
Well, yeah, I think there's more to that than that. But yes, I agree. I mean, I think a lot of.
- [100:21]
Joe Rogan
It is that, though. A lot of it is that a Lot of what people protest. There's a lot of protests have like real good purpose behind them. But a lot of the people participating in those protests are looking for meaning in their life and they don't have it anywhere else.
- [100:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yes, well. And you know, I mean, look, we need those people too. We need those people to drive change, you know.
- [100:40]
Joe Rogan
Sure, if they're organic. And again, the problem with this world is that those things are manipulated.
- [100:47]
Lucas Nelson
Just like you have to be weaponized, you have to. It's important that you don't let your emotions be manipulated. I think that's one of the great lessons in this wild world that we're in. I mean, that's what I try the most. That's why I try not to make concrete statements, you know, unless I know at least, you know, where I err on is like, okay, this is, this is the compassionate thing to support or do I have a charity that I work with called Music Heals International and it's a music school in Haiti, in Venezuela, in India. I think there's a presence here too. And it's just. I know that I can in concrete ways make someone's life more joyful and on a face to face basis. David Blaine was telling me about. I met David Blaine one time and he was. He's a cool guy, very cool guy. And he. We were discussing that it's almost more powerful to be at a hospital and go and talk to the kids that you're supporting in this hospital rather than to donate to that hospital and just sort of. I think there's just something so spiritually significant about being with the people that you're helping and the joy in that being reciprocated and that feeling of being at the just giving is joy. Ultimately, I think that's a really cool thing. There's a great quote. A man slept and dreamt that life was joy. He awoke and found that life was service. He acted and behold, service was joy. And I like that. I always remember that.
- [102:34]
Joe Rogan
There's definitely something to that. Right. Making people feel good is selfish.
- [102:38]
Lucas Nelson
It is. And it's a joy. And it's a win win.
- [102:41]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's a win win. Like you get rewarded for being nice.
- [102:45]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. And I mean there's a. Also I don't like. I think the word kind is more appropriate because people can be nice and not good. But I don't think you can truly be kind and mean it because if.
- [102:57]
Joe Rogan
You'Re kind, you actually are thinking you feel it.
- [103:00]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [103:00]
Joe Rogan
You feel it where others, you're just Being polite. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be. You could say the right words with, like, a shitty feeling to it. Like, have a good day. And you're like, ew. Yeah, fuck you.
- [103:11]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. What's behind that.
- [103:14]
Joe Rogan
British people are really good at that. Yeah. You know, they're really good at, like, words with, like, a cunty attitude behind it, because that's part of their culture. It's like keeping up appearances.
- [103:26]
Lucas Nelson
Well, it's. I mean, in a way, it's part of every culture, you know.
- [103:29]
Joe Rogan
Sure.
- [103:29]
Lucas Nelson
And. Yeah, and I, you know, I think that's, you know. Yeah. Keeping up appearances was one of the.
- [103:36]
Joe Rogan
Things I hated the most about Los Angeles. It's like this. The hollowness of communication. That's my. My bias against actors and people because I encountered so many people that were, like, artificial constructs.
- [103:50]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I. I loved it there when I went, and I still love it when I go. I mean, I've did a lot of time. Yeah, I lived there for 10 years.
- [103:57]
Joe Rogan
Where'd you live?
- [103:58]
Lucas Nelson
In Venice.
- [103:59]
Joe Rogan
Okay, well, that's a little different. Venice is. It's kind of. At least it was before it was overwhelmed with homeless people.
- [104:06]
Lucas Nelson
Here's what I think about community, about Los Angeles is. Los Angeles is like the cave in Star wars and Empire Strikes Back. And when Luke asks Yoda what's in there, and he says, only what you take with you, because you can go to LA and find any type of energy. You can go to LA and find any type of person. There's groups of really amazing people, and there's groups of people who are lost, you know, and there's different areas and there's different places that, you know, where these different types of people congregate. But. But LA is a very powerful place. It's a lot of moving place, you know, and I. I prefer to be in places that are less. There's less movement. I. I'm a. I. I live in Maui. I have my friends in Maui. My best buddy, Matt Miola, is a professional surfer, and he's a bow hunter. And I, you know, and. And my friend Ollie works construction. And, you know, when I go home to Maui, I like a simple life, you know, I like, you know, my friend. They're all fishermen. They're all, you know, I like to go out there, and that's how I want to raise my kids. You know, I want to be out there in nature. I want to be giving and taking with the land, and I want to be able to understand the planet that I live on by working with the earth and working with, you know, and that community in Maui there is a really special place. Place, you know.
- [105:27]
Joe Rogan
Well, I think Hawaii in general is a very special place because it's surrounded by ocean. And I think there's something about the ocean that gives you humility, and it, like, lets you understand that you're a part of nature.
- [105:38]
Lucas Nelson
Because where we came from.
- [105:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, we came from it. And not only that, it's so huge and massive and overwhelming. It's like the mountains. Mountains have a similar effect. It's like they're. They're so vast. You can't have much of an ego when you're in their presence.
- [105:53]
Lucas Nelson
My other favorite place is Montana.
- [105:55]
Joe Rogan
There you go.
- [105:57]
Lucas Nelson
Other than, you know. Yeah. I mean, anywhere there's nature. But I really like that's being in the mountains of Montana and being on Hawaii. There's only a few places in life that I actually am sad when I leave. Like, I get really upset. You know, it's like breaking up with someone, you know, when you have to leave.
- [106:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. When you write, do you have a purpose in mind? Or do you sit down and try to find out what comes to mind, or do you have a thought in your head before you write?
- [106:27]
Lucas Nelson
My best work comes. It just. It's like a conduit. It, like, comes from another place. And I hear, like, when I was 11, I wrote this song called you'd Were It. And I was on the school bus, and I started hearing this song in my head. And I realized that it hadn't been written yet. It was something that was coming from, I guess, my own experiences, but also filtered through somewhere else. It felt like it came from somewhere, like it was a download. And I think that I look at writing as if, like, there's a beautiful muse sitting there, and she's giving me these gifts every once in a while, and that she sends them to me. And if I'm open and clear and not in my own way, and I'm, you know, if some. If I get, like, something that hits me, like a clever line, like, there's a song I have called Find Yourself, and I hope you find yourself Before I find somebody else to be my love. And I start singing that in my head. And I start like, oh, the melody comes and it's a gift and I don't. Wherever I'm at. If I was. Got one right now, I'd have to write it down while we were talking, you know what I mean? I have to sit down. I'll be like, hold on, let's Write a song, you know, but I try not to, you know, I can't force her to send me because they're gifts, you know, And I. It's like my dad always says, like, waiting for the rain to fill up the. Well, you can't force the rain to come. You just have to wait. And the real stuff comes when you just allow yourself to receive it.
- [108:03]
Joe Rogan
And I think I like what you just said, too. Getting out of your own way.
- [108:07]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [108:07]
Joe Rogan
Because that's the thing. It's like these ideas are out there, but you're so in your own head and so worried about yourself and your own that sometimes, like, you. You block them.
- [108:17]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [108:18]
Joe Rogan
Because all of your attention is on yourself.
- [108:20]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, and you overthink it and you analyze it and how.
- [108:25]
Joe Rogan
Am I gonna look?
- [108:26]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [108:26]
Joe Rogan
And is it gonna be cool? People gonna like it? Yeah.
- [108:30]
Lucas Nelson
That's the big one. Is this, like. I think a lot of people get caught up in, like. Well, you know, like this latest record, you know, people like. I didn't want to be too flowery with it. I didn't. I wanted to write simply what came to me. And sometimes the songs are simple. And I think that simplicity for some people can be like, oh, well, what about the. The intricate arrangements and what about the long jams and the exploration? Like, that's not what came to me.
- [108:57]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [108:58]
Lucas Nelson
And I. I can't cater to those people. You know, right now, where my heart is, is Zen.
- [109:04]
Joe Rogan
It's.
- [109:05]
Lucas Nelson
I'm trying to be as simple as I can be in terms of just only putting out what comes to me at the moment. And sometimes people aren't going to like it because they're used to me rocking and jamming and doing all that, or they're used to me doing that, but that'll come back. It'll come back around. You know, there's. There's a time and a place for everything. And right now I just. I have to be. I have to be open to it as it comes, not as I want it to be or as I think other people. People will want it to be.
- [109:31]
Joe Rogan
You know, that's it. Right.
- [109:33]
Lucas Nelson
You know?
- [109:33]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. You just have to. Whatever. And the thing has to be kind of pure in its form.
- [109:38]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [109:39]
Joe Rogan
And don't over molest it with a bunch of different production values and fucking layers and.
- [109:47]
Lucas Nelson
Yes, exactly.
- [109:48]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [109:48]
Lucas Nelson
And I prefer. I mean, when I listen to my heroes, you know, Hank Williams, dad, Merle Haggard, Stevie Ray and Jimmy are. Look, what came to Jimmy was an explosion of color and sound. I Mean, when I hear his music, I see colors that are, like, I can't even describe in real life might have something to do with the psychedelics that I also took. But at the same time, I think.
- [110:16]
Joe Rogan
That other people and the psychedelics he took.
- [110:18]
Lucas Nelson
And that's the thing, is that he. It goes back to what we're saying, like, the state of mind that he was in 100. He captured and he put it out.
- [110:26]
Joe Rogan
Imagine writing Voodoo Child if you're sober.
- [110:29]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. You know, like. Yeah, exactly. And there's a time and a place for it, you know?
- [110:34]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [110:35]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and. And. But, you know, I have hundreds of songs I have not released that I wrote at different times in my life. And I'll eventually put them all out, hopefully, if I'm lucky, you know.
- [110:46]
Joe Rogan
Do you just go back to them and look at them every now and then? Like, how do you. How do you file them away? Do you have money?
- [110:50]
Lucas Nelson
I have it on a Dropbox file.
- [110:52]
Joe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- [110:53]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. A couple hundred songs in there. More probably now, because I write them all the time, you know, and then. And, yeah, it's like. It's just kind of. It just like sometimes it's like, God, I wrote another one. It's gonna go there. And then that one shoots to the top of the list of the one you're interested in because you just wrote it. And then something that might be really great just gets kind of pushed down. And then, like, so what really you really have to do is each project that comes up, you have to say, what am I trying to. What am I trying to get across right now? And it's not about whether a song is better or worse. It's about what. What am I trying to say? And how do I present that, you know? And so I have to collect 10 or 12 or 14 songs from that that kind of fit in this. In a narrative that you're trying to put out.
- [111:41]
Joe Rogan
And do you write pen to paper or do you write on a computer? Like, how do you do it for the most part, you write on your phone?
- [111:48]
Lucas Nelson
I do it for the most part.
- [111:49]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [111:49]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. Well, because I have fast thumbs.
- [111:52]
Joe Rogan
Okay.
- [111:52]
Lucas Nelson
And my brain works really fast. And when I get really excited, I'll write it down there. I can read it properly. Sometimes I'll write on a piece of paper. Don't get me wrong.
- [112:02]
Joe Rogan
Do you ever talk it to your phone?
- [112:03]
Lucas Nelson
Like, use voice. I use voice memo to record everything. So a lot of the demos that I have are just voice memo to phone because my brain's working fast and this thing works pretty fast.
- [112:15]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. You know, voice memo has a transcription aspect to it too now.
- [112:20]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, I didn't even realize that.
- [112:21]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. I've been using that a lot. So when you. It works on both Android and on iPhones.
- [112:27]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [112:27]
Joe Rogan
But when you make a voice note, it can transcribe it now. So, like, what I'll do is I'll, you know, record sets and sometimes we do. We do this show at the comedy mothership called Bottom of the Barrel, where you have, like a whiskey barrel and inside is all suggestions from the audience. Just put your hand in there and pick out a piece of paper and pull it out. It's like tomato soup or whatever.
- [112:48]
Lucas Nelson
Right, right.
- [112:48]
Joe Rogan
And you just have to start talking about it and try to find something in there. And every now and then it's like, you know, one out of X amount of times, you have a genuine idea that becomes a bit.
- [112:59]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [112:59]
Joe Rogan
And the best way for me to fish those out is to go over the transcription instead of just listening to myself for an hour.
- [113:06]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I mean, that's great. I didn't realize that was a feature. And I'm gonna start using it.
- [113:11]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's pretty dope because you can just talk and it'll transcribe it, and then you can copy and paste that transcription into voice note or into notes. And even Notes itself has a voice memo aspect to it now.
- [113:24]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, wow.
- [113:25]
Joe Rogan
So if you go to just when you're in notes on. On an iPhone, like, you can actually make a voice memo.
- [113:31]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [113:31]
Joe Rogan
Voice note from that and it'll transcribe that for you.
- [113:34]
Lucas Nelson
When you're doing a set, do you have people put their phones away?
- [113:38]
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yeah, yeah, the club does that.
- [113:41]
Lucas Nelson
We have most comedians do that. Right. Because they're trying a lot of material.
- [113:44]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you're trying material out. And also you don't want people distracted. It's better for everybody. It's better for the audience, is better for you. And also, you're saying a lot of stuff that's, like, not done. And if somebody releases it because they want clicks and then they put it on YouTube, the whole bit up because it's not done. It's like. And a lot of bits, they suck at first. Like, you don't know where they're going. Like, you have an idea. And the only way comedy really gets made is in front of a crowd. I have a lot of ideas that I think are really good until the audience tells me different. You don't know, really have no idea until you say in front of people that's interesting. Yeah.
- [114:19]
Lucas Nelson
And it's very much the same for, you know, in music. I. I feel like there's stuff that I try out live. You know, there's a song new. I do a lot of new material live just to see how the audience will react.
- [114:31]
Joe Rogan
Does it feel weird the first time you sing it?
- [114:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, it depends on what type of song it is too. If it's a song that requires focus on the lyrics, you know, then sometimes it feels weird because you. A lot of people, when they listen to music, they don't hear a lot of lyrics. It takes a certain type of listener to listen to lyrics and be able to internalize them. A lot of people take the song as a whole and the melody, and they hear it and they're like, oh, this song makes me feel good. And then later on, if they like the song, they'll go in and listen to the lyrics. I've found a lot of people listen to music that way, and then it takes them a while to actually hear what, you know, unless. Unless it's a stripped down me and a guitar with no band around. And then it forces the listener to then listen to the words, you know, which, actually, I really like doing that sometimes. I like just playing just me, because then there's no distraction around, and it's sort of just me, a guitar, and the words that I'm saying. And I think they have more impact sometimes that way.
- [115:34]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, people love that, too. That's why they love acoustic performances, right?
- [115:37]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Bob Dylan was an amazing Paul Simon. Again, I like. You know, these are people that I. I cite a lot, you know, in this. In this way. But, you know Sierra Farrell. Do you know Sierra Farrell? Oh, my God. She's on my new record. Stephen Wilson Jr. He's another great, amazing country singer songwriter. Sierra Farrell has one of the greatest voices I've ever heard.
- [115:59]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [115:59]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, my God. Yeah. You got. You love her music. And. And. And Stephen Wilson Jr. Not only is he a great writer, he used to be a food scientist. So he was a food scientist, and he wrote songs kind of as a hobby on the side, but he was responsible for, like, what percentage of what sort of goes into making dog food and, like, things like that. It was really interesting. Yeah. And now he's like. Like, really hitting it off. He's. He's. He's a great artist.
- [116:33]
Joe Rogan
That's interesting.
- [116:33]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [116:34]
Joe Rogan
Like a food scientist, too. Well, yeah. I guess there's probably an art to that too, right?
- [116:39]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
- [116:41]
Joe Rogan
Create something delicious. Well, you could be an evil food scientist creating junk food that's, like, super addictive.
- [116:46]
Lucas Nelson
I think there's a lot of those out there, man.
- [116:48]
Joe Rogan
Oh, hell yeah.
- [116:49]
Lucas Nelson
But I don't, you know, do they think they're evil? They probably just, you know, getting a job, you know, getting a job done.
- [116:54]
Joe Rogan
They're just doing their job. What's their job? You know, I mean, a lot of these food companies, unfortunately, are now owned by the same people that used to own tobacco companies.
- [117:02]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [117:02]
Joe Rogan
Or still own tobacco companies.
- [117:04]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. That's interesting.
- [117:05]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And then they develop super addictive junk food.
- [117:09]
Lucas Nelson
Family farms, man. Family farms. Regenerative farms. Support your local family farmer.
- [117:14]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. You don't have to eat junk food.
- [117:16]
Lucas Nelson
No, you don't.
- [117:17]
Joe Rogan
But also you can.
- [117:19]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [117:20]
Joe Rogan
Just don't eat it all the time. Twinkies are great.
- [117:23]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [117:24]
Joe Rogan
They make you feel like shit, but while you're eating them, they're delicious.
- [117:27]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I like. I think as far as junk food goes, just a good old Snickers bar.
- [117:32]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, Snickers bar. Great. I don't even know if Snickers bar is, like, really junk food, because there's a place for Snickers bars, like, if you're in the backcountry, say if you're hiking.
- [117:43]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [117:43]
Joe Rogan
Snickers bars.
- [117:44]
Lucas Nelson
Well, it has nuts, some. Some protein.
- [117:47]
Joe Rogan
There's plenty of sugar in it, too, which you're gonna need if you're burning off a ton of calories. You're operating at a calorie deficit, and sometimes that's like, exactly what you need. You know, you need, like, a little bit of protein, a lot of sugar, and, you know, it helps fuel your muscles.
- [118:02]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [118:02]
Joe Rogan
And it gives you just simple, simple, simple calories.
- [118:06]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I think I just heard you were talking about this. Was it George Foreman, he used to drink a Coke after each.
- [118:13]
Joe Rogan
No. Floyd Mayweather.
- [118:14]
Lucas Nelson
Floyd Mayweather, yeah.
- [118:14]
Joe Rogan
Drank Coca Cola after he worked out. Yeah, yeah, There's. There's something to that. There's something that, as hard as he worked out, just like immediate sugar after exercise to replenish the body. Yeah. My friend Corey Sandhagen was talking about. About that.
- [118:28]
Lucas Nelson
Okay.
- [118:29]
Joe Rogan
And he does that. You know, he's. He's a big fan of, like, because he's an MMA fighter. And so he'll do two and sometimes three workouts in a day. And, you know, like, if you're gonna do that, you have to do something after a hard workout to replenish the muscles.
- [118:44]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [118:45]
Joe Rogan
In order to be able to work.
- [118:46]
Lucas Nelson
Out and the carbs then replenish the muscles.
- [118:48]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you need those sugars. Yeah. You need fruit, you need fructose.
- [118:52]
Lucas Nelson
But wouldn't you want it to be like a more pure like form of sugar than the like. Isn't there, aren't there different types of like refined sugar is not, you know.
- [119:02]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, perhaps. But also the like high sugar stuff gets in the muscles quicker. That's the argument for doing it like right after a workout.
- [119:11]
Lucas Nelson
Okay. Yeah. And what is right after. Is it like within 15 minutes?
- [119:15]
Joe Rogan
I think it's within 30. I think that's the argument. I mean you have to like look at. I mean there's a lot of exercise scientists that I'm sure would have arguments one way or the other, which is interesting. So they can't all agree.
- [119:26]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [119:26]
Joe Rogan
You know, there's a lot of arguments.
- [119:29]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [119:29]
Joe Rogan
But it also depends on what kind of exercise you're doing. You know, are you a weightlifter or are you a marathon runner? You know, because we had Courtney Doe Walter on the podcast once and she does ultra marathons. And you know, my friend Cam Haynes, who also does ultramarathons, says like she's like one of the toughest human beings he's ever met in his fucking life. And she exists on sugar. She eats like candy and drinks beer. Like it's not. Yeah, she's not like formed in a lab. Like whatever willpower that she has that allows her to, you know, she's beaten people where she does like these 250 mile runs where the second place person is like eight hours behind her.
- [120:11]
Lucas Nelson
Wow.
- [120:11]
Joe Rogan
Which is just bananas. The idea of like you could run 250 miles and then second place, it takes them eight hours longer than you to run those 250 miles.
- [120:25]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, that's got to be genetic slightly too. I mean it's got to be like the VO2 Max is pretty high.
- [120:30]
Joe Rogan
I don't know. Genetic. It's body type for sure. You're not going to get like a 6 foot 5, 300 pound man that can do that.
- [120:37]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [120:38]
Joe Rogan
Because your form physically can't really. There's so much of a physical energy requirement to move that much mass in defiance of gravity over long periods of time. Most of those people that are ultramarathon runners are very slight, small people. Like Cam, when he gets ready to do ultramarathons, he loses like quite a bit of weight. You know, like at one point in time he was like in the high 180s and now he's down to like 160 and he'll get even lower than that.
- [121:08]
Lucas Nelson
How tall Is he race?
- [121:09]
Joe Rogan
He's my height, so he's like 5 8. Okay, 5, 7. So he'll get down to like 150 something when he's gonna do like a 250 mile race. Yeah, but that's like a, that kind of mindset is a crazy mindset. That's like a very unusual punishment that you're gonna put yourself through voluntarily.
- [121:30]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. When Chris died, Kris Kristofferson died, it hit me real hard and I went and ran and I just kept running like Forrest Gump. And I ran just 13.1 miles. I stopped when I got half a mile, half a marathon. And I was worked. I was like, oh man, another 13.1 miles for a marathon. That's a lot.
- [121:53]
Joe Rogan
Well, you build up to it, right? That's the whole thing. It's like, you know, like if someone wants to work out tomorrow and they never worked out. Like, I've done this with a lot of my comedian friends. I take them to the gym, I go, look, we're not going to break you. If you're going to work out with me, it's going to be very easy and you're going to maybe want to do more, but I'm not going to let you. Like, I'm going to make you do a certain amount of push ups, a certain amount of body weight squats. We're going to do a few of these and a few of those and then we're done. We're done. And I don't want you to be tired. I want you to be just a little energized. And then two days later, we'll do it again. And then we'll do it again, and then we'll do it again, and then we'll do it again. And then after a while, your body gets stronger. Like now I'm going to require more of you. Now we're going to actually exert. And now, okay, now you've got some muscle mass. Now you've got some endurance. And now we're going to build on top of that. The way I describe it, I'm like, you're building a mountain one layer of paint at a time.
- [122:40]
Lucas Nelson
Wow. You know, and way to describe it. Do you do the, the scans, the body scans or DEXA scan? DEXA scan.
- [122:48]
Joe Rogan
I have in the past, I haven't done one in a long time. I just found this guy, Colin Anderson, 287 pounds, did a hundred mile. Whoa. He set out to do like to break the world record. I like it says ultra large. That's the name of the little documentary. So he's 280 pounds and he ran an ultra marathon.
- [123:10]
Lucas Nelson
Wow.
- [123:11]
Joe Rogan
That must have been hell.
- [123:14]
Lucas Nelson
That's incredible.
- [123:15]
Joe Rogan
He lost at the end of the video there too. Oh, my God. I bet he lost 50 pounds. How much weight did he lose? About to find out. Skip ahead. Spoiler alert.
- [123:23]
Lucas Nelson
Spoiler alert.
- [123:24]
Joe Rogan
Get to the end. Wait, gained weight? No, it's 297. It says. What did he weigh before? It's 287 is what I was seeing. What? How's that possible? 10 pound weight gain after 100 pounds or 100 miles around. What the. Did you eat, bro?
- [123:45]
Lucas Nelson
Wow.
- [123:45]
Joe Rogan
Crazy.
- [123:47]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. He must have been eating the whole time, like, right? Like every few miles.
- [123:52]
Joe Rogan
Every five minutes.
- [123:53]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [123:54]
Joe Rogan
Incredible. I guess. I don't know. I guess.
- [123:56]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, yeah. Your body probably is doing everything it can to keep the water.
- [124:00]
Joe Rogan
I mean, I can only guess. Yeah, that's pretty wild.
- [124:02]
Lucas Nelson
That is interesting. I didn't expect to see.
- [124:05]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. To be that big around 100 miles.
- [124:07]
Lucas Nelson
Is very, very unusual.
- [124:09]
Joe Rogan
Most of those guys are super slight and, you know, they just keep on trucking.
- [124:13]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. Did you read that book? A long time ago. It came out, I think it was called Born to Run, but it was, like, about the Tarahumara tribe. They run barefoot and I don't remember what it was actually called, but really interesting.
- [124:29]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. They run through the mountains. It's like a South American tribe, right?
- [124:32]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, South American. Or even Mexican. I can't remember.
- [124:35]
Joe Rogan
Mexican.
- [124:35]
Lucas Nelson
I don't remember. But. But the Tarahumara is what they're called. And they would run barefoot, you know, wild.
- [124:42]
Joe Rogan
What the fuck?
- [124:43]
Lucas Nelson
And apparently that, you know, they. They would. They would also run, which was interesting. They would run happily. Like, they would have smiles on their faces and they'd be light and that. And they said that that was like, helped them sort of lightly grace themselves through the. The mindset that they had when they ran helped help them to outperform everyone else.
- [125:03]
Joe Rogan
Well, they're probably doing it all the time. And in order to be able to run that much again, you're building slowly but surely building on top of what you had before. Like, you can't. It's like, if someone wants to just get out today and run a marathon, don't fucking do it. You're gonna blow your ankles apart. You're gonna fuck your knees up. You're gonna ruin your hips. Like, don't do that. Don't do that. Run around the block. And then the next day, maybe run twice around the block. But you have to get better the same way you got sick. Like, you didn't get unhealthy in a day. You got unhealthy over the course of a long stretch of life.
- [125:39]
Lucas Nelson
Do you run? Do you like to run?
- [125:41]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [125:41]
Lucas Nelson
You don't?
- [125:41]
Joe Rogan
No, I've done it. I have a knee issue. And should you swim instead? I swim, yeah, I do, but most of my cardiovascular exercise, I do on airdyne bike.
- [125:54]
Lucas Nelson
Oh.
- [125:55]
Joe Rogan
Or I hit the bag.
- [125:56]
Lucas Nelson
But does the bike hurt your knee, too?
- [125:58]
Joe Rogan
No.
- [125:59]
Lucas Nelson
No, it doesn't.
- [125:59]
Joe Rogan
No. Because you're not pounding right. You know, I've had knee surgeries, you know, from all years of martial arts part. So I have, like, one knee that has meniscus missing. And I can run. I do, but I just don't think it's the best thing, you know, for someone who's got, like. Then again, there's Goggins, who has, like, zero meniscus, and he's basically bone on bone, just running around. But he gets a bunch of operations. He's on, like, seven or eight operations to try to correct his knees that are up from doing this. They put plates in there, and. And he wears them out. And like, it's nuts.
- [126:32]
Lucas Nelson
You know, I respect the guy, but that's a lot.
- [126:36]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. I mean, he's ruining his body, and he's hoping that science will get to a point where they could repair all that shit.
- [126:43]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, interesting. Without him having to kneel, he's, like, placing it on that.
- [126:47]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's like, you can get a knee replacement now. Right. And you'll be in significantly less pain. But once science comes around, well, they're getting closer and closer every day to be able to completely regenerate cartilage, meniscus, and all that tissue that you have inside your knee that keeps it healthy. If you decide that you want to get a knee replacement, that kind of stops all that, because now you have an artificial knee, and you can't regrow a knee once you've cut your knee out.
- [127:15]
Lucas Nelson
No, you can't. Yeah.
- [127:16]
Joe Rogan
And so this is why he's not doing that yet. I think he's talked about it. He's like, maybe someday I'll have to. But right now it's just. He'll just deal with it. You look like you have to pee. Do you?
- [127:26]
Lucas Nelson
No.
- [127:26]
Joe Rogan
Okay, fine. You're weaseling around a little bit. Because I always get sensitive to guests. Like, if they're around a little, I was like, oh, you gotta pee?
- [127:33]
Lucas Nelson
Well, now, let me take an assessment.
- [127:35]
Joe Rogan
Now, because we're like two hours in. We are two hours at least.
- [127:38]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, I. I feel good, though. Okay. I don't have to pee. I just sort of like. Yeah, I guess I've just been sitting a while.
- [127:44]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, no, I do that too. I do that too. Yeah. But for people out there that are thinking about, like, oh, this is inspiring me. Start slow, but do it again. Make sure you don't just get inspired one day. Inspiration is great. Discipline is better.
- [127:59]
Lucas Nelson
You know, what I did, which I loved, is that really helped me, was in, like, wherever I would walk, just in general, I would just do a little, like, jog. Instead of walking somewhere, I just go.
- [128:15]
Joe Rogan
Like, just a little something.
- [128:16]
Lucas Nelson
Just like this.
- [128:17]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [128:18]
Lucas Nelson
Just kind of like almost like this. And I'd walk wherever I was going and. And I started to do that every day. Just instead, like. Oh, you know, instead of walking to. To get my coffee in the morning, I'd kind of do a little jog, you know, and throughout the day I'd do that. And eventually I started, like, wanting to go out for a run. Like, my body just started warming up, and I kind of wanted to do that.
- [128:40]
Joe Rogan
Same concept. Yeah, yeah, same concept. Build it up slowly.
- [128:43]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, exactly.
- [128:44]
Joe Rogan
Just do something. Something people. I'm telling you, just go do something. Find a yoga class. Do something.
- [128:49]
Lucas Nelson
Treat your body like a temple.
- [128:51]
Joe Rogan
Well, just. Just for your brain, you know, you got to understand that there's a connection. If your body is sedentary, it's just sludge. It's all just. It's all blocked up.
- [129:01]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, that's true.
- [129:02]
Joe Rogan
That with your mind. Some mentally unhealthiest people that I know are all terribly out of shape.
- [129:09]
Lucas Nelson
Yep. And then you. I mean, you know, there is a correlation, for sure.
- [129:13]
Joe Rogan
100%. You know, this is. This life. This life is. You've. You've given. You've been given this meat vehicle, and you got to maintain it.
- [129:21]
Lucas Nelson
It's a good band name.
- [129:22]
Joe Rogan
Meat vehicle probably already exists. They probably have some banging songs. It's probably a hardcore band.
- [129:28]
Lucas Nelson
Definitely a hardcore band. Wait, there's some other ones. Oh, Biblically accurate angel.
- [129:36]
Joe Rogan
Ooh, Biblically accurate angel.
- [129:39]
Lucas Nelson
Have you seen what A biblically accurate angel.
- [129:42]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they look like aliens.
- [129:43]
Lucas Nelson
That is pretty cool.
- [129:44]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they look like geometric patterns. I always wonder what the alien. You know, Tucker Carlson's convinced that aliens and devils are. That's what angels and devils and aliens are all the same thing. He thinks that they're not visiting from somewhere else, that they've always been here, and that there's some sort of spiritual Aspect to like the UFO encounter UAP phenomenon.
- [130:11]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, I see, yes. Well, there's a lot of interesting pictures that are, you know, drawn on cave walls. Oh yeah, things like that.
- [130:23]
Joe Rogan
Oh, we've gone over a shit ton of them. And then also ancient religious art where it looks like people are in vehicles flying through the sky. I'm sure you've seen those too. Yeah. Like what is that? Like what are you trying to. There's no other stuff that you're in that thing that's fantastical. Everything else is like an accurate representation of life at that time, except for these people that are in these flying things in the sky. Like what is that? Yeah, we just don't know.
- [130:48]
Lucas Nelson
Unfortunately, when I looked at all of the credible UFO reports, the only ones that really had no explanation, I actually asked ChatGPT of all of the credible UFO, of all of the UFO reports, which ones have not in some way been sort of explained? Right. And which ones are the ones that are still like. And the one that was not the one that's still sort of outstanding is the USS Nimitz experience Commander David Fravor.
- [131:20]
Joe Rogan
Right, yeah, I've had him on the podcast talking about it.
- [131:22]
Lucas Nelson
Have you really? Yeah, yeah, that seems to be the most compelling.
- [131:27]
Joe Rogan
There's other ones though. Ryan Graves, he's another fighter pilot and that was off the east coast. So the Nimitz is off the coast of San Diego, but off the east coast they upgraded their sensors in 2014 on the fighter jets and then immediately started encountering these things that defied known physics that were in the sky and you know, and these guys had these encounters with these things that were like a cube inside of a sphere that's like motionless at 120 knot winds and no heat signature moving through the sky. They don't know what the fuck they are.
- [132:02]
Lucas Nelson
What, what, what do you say to the theory that, of the possibility that that is sort of black ops? Like the idea that the SR71, I think Blackbird, The Blackbird, there is a, there's a company called Skunk Works.
- [132:21]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [132:21]
Lucas Nelson
And they were, they were responsible for the declassification of that aircraft. And then I think the F111 or the Stealth bombers and you know, but since then, and that was like 25 years ago or more, there have not been any more declassifications.
- [132:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, that's a good argument.
- [132:40]
Lucas Nelson
I just, I'm curious as to like what, you know, what in 25 years, based on the technology that we been able to see that makes it to modern society, how much is held back. And what we don't see just interests me. And I don't know. I don't have an answer. I'm not asking myself whether I actually believe that it's almost unlikely that we have that technology, but because I feel like it would just take so much more than we may be capable of to cover it up. But maybe not. I don't know.
- [133:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I don't think it would. I think there's a high likelihood that a lot of this stuff is ours. And I think one of the reasons for that statement is that this stuff always happens over military airspace.
- [133:30]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [133:30]
Joe Rogan
East coast and West Coast. So the east coast stuff, the Ryan Graves stuff, they're doing it over areas where these fighter jet pilots run training missions. And then the same thing as the west coast stuff. Like it's off the coast of San Diego, which is like tons of military out there. Yeah, I. I do believe that there's some programs that are operational and there's a great podcast. Jesse Michaels has an amazing YouTube channel that's. He's. He's covered this stuff, like, really extensively. And he's a brilliant guy. He really understands it. And they were working on some anti gravity technology in the 1960s.
- [134:02]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [134:03]
Joe Rogan
And most likely they continued that work.
- [134:05]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. Artificial horizon technology and stuff like that. You know, that, that. I mean, I mean, it's gotta come far since then.
- [134:11]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And there's the idea that they could hide all that stuff. No, they could never hide it. Of course they could. Of course they could. They definitely could. You're being naive. You're being naive as to how much the government.
- [134:21]
Lucas Nelson
No, I'm. I'm only asking the question, not you.
- [134:24]
Joe Rogan
I don't mean you people that say that.
- [134:25]
Lucas Nelson
I actually pretty much. That's where I lean towards when it comes to that.
- [134:31]
Joe Rogan
I think some of it. But some of it also could be from somewhere else. And I think some of it just exhibits. It's like the, the Nimitz one. Okay. This is 2004. So this Tic Tac goes from more than 50,000ft above sea level to sea level in less than a second. Yeah, like seven, eight of a second.
- [134:50]
Lucas Nelson
Sure.
- [134:51]
Joe Rogan
Like, that's crazy.
- [134:52]
Lucas Nelson
That is. And you're right.
- [134:53]
Joe Rogan
What is that?
- [134:54]
Lucas Nelson
And it does. It does. It changes it when you remember how long ago these things were being seen.
- [135:03]
Joe Rogan
Right. Because this is 2004. But then you go back to the 1960s. If they're really working on anti gravity technology back then, it's possible that they could have created a drone.
- [135:13]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [135:14]
Joe Rogan
The thing Is like, could a human being survive inside of those things at those extreme speeds? Well, the question is, like, what are they experiencing in that? Because if it's a gravity device, if it's moving, if it's manipulating gravity, so it might not have G forces at all. It might be operating in a completely different paradigm.
- [135:34]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, well, they may be sort of just, you know, trillions of calc of alternate sort of, you know, momentum shifts in the outside protective layer that balance out whatever's happening on the inside. Exact point where, you know, they're using this crazy technology.
- [135:54]
Joe Rogan
That's also why the argument is that they're blurry. Like, so a lot of the photographs of these things are blurry. It might be because they're actually existing in some sort of a gravity, like, void.
- [136:03]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [136:03]
Joe Rogan
And what you're seeing is not exactly what's there. You're. You're seeing it through, like a dirty windshield.
- [136:09]
Lucas Nelson
I've seen some stuff.
- [136:11]
Joe Rogan
Have you?
- [136:12]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [136:12]
Joe Rogan
What have you seen?
- [136:13]
Lucas Nelson
When I was in Maui twice, I've seen something that I could not explain. The one time I looked up and about nine of us were hanging out and we all looked up at the same time to see an orange orb. And it was probably. It looked like it was a hundred yards away, maybe 200, just floating, kind of observing. And then, I swear it seemed like as soon as enough people saw. Went and then it went and it moved like nothing else I thought possible. Possible at the time it went out of the atmosphere, you know, and it was crazy. Faster than any drone. And that this was back in like 2004, 2005 maybe, you know, so it's very. We were all, you know, young. I was maybe a little teenager. So it was probably like 2006, you know, but it was like. It was crazy. I'm not telling you.
- [137:11]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [137:12]
Lucas Nelson
You know, and.
- [137:13]
Joe Rogan
And, well, a lot of them happen near the ocean too, which is interesting.
- [137:17]
Lucas Nelson
And another one, I was out on Lanai and we were hanging out with some friends. We're laying down on the lawn. And when you're out in Lanai, on the backside of Lanai, there's no light pollution at all. And so you have just this big giant fishbowl of stars. And it's the most incredible. It's like you're sitting in a spaceship, in a spaceship and you feel that you're on spaceship Earth at the time, you know, like you are on that rock hurtling through space at that point. And I saw this. We all. It scared the girls. We all saw this pulsing colored thing Go from one side of the horizon to the other, but in a very like, it was like pulsing different colors and it was like really interesting. And so, you know, who knows what that could have been, but it was quite interesting.
- [138:04]
Joe Rogan
Well, I'll never forget the vast majority of the ocean floor is unexplored.
- [138:08]
Lucas Nelson
Right.
- [138:08]
Joe Rogan
And so this is the theory is that if you were going to set up a base here to observe human beings, if you came from somewhere else, you would probably do it in the ocean. Especially if you have the kind of technology that allowed them to travel here from other star systems, would also allow them to not be intimidated whatsoever by the pressures.
- [138:27]
Lucas Nelson
I mean, that's, I guess the deep pressure is what would be the, you know, it's almost the opposite of being in space, you know, the vacuum and then you have the deep.
- [138:37]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [138:38]
Lucas Nelson
Pressure of, you know, that like, you.
- [138:42]
Joe Rogan
Know, but there's videos of these things going in the water and not creating a splash.
- [138:48]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [138:48]
Joe Rogan
So like what is that? Is it a hologram? So is it not a physical object? Or are they doing something that allows them to not interact with any physical thing on Earth? Like some sort of a void that they travel through so they can go through the trees. This is like part of Jacques Vallee's research too. In one of his books that was really fascinating was this woman observed this like egg shaped thing. And when it took off, it went through the trees, but it didn't hurt the trees, but it was on the ground like as a physical object. And when it took off, it went through the trees.
- [139:24]
Lucas Nelson
Well, I wonder if then, you know, we're talking about like bending space time.
- [139:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [139:28]
Lucas Nelson
At that point, are you creating some sort of like, like warp?
- [139:36]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you're creating some sort of a warp drive.
- [139:38]
Lucas Nelson
That's the idea, you know, where, where you're just like warping space and time around a centralized location and you sort of have to be, you know, use sort of the, you know, the, these like different sort of exotic forms of matter and having an understanding of exotic matter which we're now just starting to understand that there are like, are these exotic matter types that, you know, that work in these weird ways. But as we, if you read about it now, the only information available is that we're only like cracking the surface of the understanding of these types of matter. And maybe we are hundreds of thousands of years away from understanding that.
- [140:17]
Joe Rogan
But I mean, you know, that's that old saying that any technology that's sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. Is it Carl Sagan said that. I forget who said that. Yeah, but yeah, I mean if you're looking at something from a thousand years from now, it would seem like magic. I mean if, if we continue, we don't blow ourselves up and science and AI continue to figure out more compelling uses of universal energy, like whatever background energy that we have.
- [140:49]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [140:49]
Joe Rogan
Who knows, who knows what, what human beings will be capable of. So you got to imagine if something's visiting us from somewhere else, especially if they have artificial super intelligence. Yeah, they've, if they've traversed this journey that we're on, they've gotten to the point where whatever we're currently investigating, whatever they're working on right now in terms of like super intelligent AI, what if they've gone through that and they're a thousand years more advanced, all that stuff would be probably simple for them to be able to go through the water to have these trans medium crafts that are capable of flying in the air through the water.
- [141:28]
Lucas Nelson
Right. Well, the interesting question for ourselves is how do we get to a place as a society to where we can trust in our science, we can trust to say that we trust it enough to fund it?
- [141:46]
Joe Rogan
You know, that's not trusting the science. The problem is the human beings that are in possession of the science.
- [141:51]
Lucas Nelson
Well, but that's what I mean, like how do we restore faith in that? And because there are, you know, it's not all bullshit. There is real, you know, like we wouldn't exist where we are without the science that has brought us to where we are. Yeah, technology and technology and so understanding and trusting and, and figuring out how to restore faith in certain institutions that we have because we need them to survive and to keep going. So it's like not tearing down the airplane while it's falling. You have to repair the airplane from inside and then keep it flying if you can. Is there a way to right the ship while we're in it?
- [142:36]
Joe Rogan
I think the problem is a lot of this stuff is military funding. Right. So a lot of the applications for any sort of like super advanced technology is going to be weapon systems. And that's what everybody's terrified of. What they're terrified of is that you're going to develop more efficient ways to kill people.
- [142:54]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah.
- [142:54]
Joe Rogan
And that's really the only way these things get funded. You know, they're not going to know.
- [142:58]
Lucas Nelson
That's the problem. I'm just, what I'm saying, I'm like how do we, how do we switch it so that we can, you know, have people in power that really are looking out for the future of humanity. Yeah. And then have people that actually want that and. Because some people are going to have to take sacrifices for that, you know, in a way. And, I mean, people high up are going to have to say, well, I'm going to have to, you know, get paid a little less. Because this, you know, it's a great struggle, Lucas. Yeah, it really is.
- [143:30]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it really is.
- [143:31]
Lucas Nelson
It's a great struggle.
- [143:32]
Joe Rogan
It's the great struggle of people in power, you know, don't necessarily deserve power. And the kind of people that you want running the world aren't interested in the job, mostly.
- [143:44]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, exactly. Well, you know.
- [143:48]
Joe Rogan
Hey, brother, I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you very much for being here.
- [143:51]
Lucas Nelson
I appreciate you having me, Joe.
- [143:52]
Joe Rogan
And I encourage everybody to go see you live because you're fucking amazing.
- [143:55]
Lucas Nelson
Thank you.
- [143:56]
Joe Rogan
It was really incredible performance at the McConaughey thing, and I wish you all the best, man. I wish it's been cool being your friend, too. Enjoy talking.
- [144:04]
Lucas Nelson
I enjoy talking to you.
- [144:05]
Joe Rogan
All right.
- [144:05]
Lucas Nelson
That was fun.
- [144:06]
Joe Rogan
Thank you. Tell everybody where they can find you. Where's the best place to find your music?
- [144:10]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, well, on all the platforms, of course. We. We're there and we're gonna. We got a tour posted. We're gonna come.
- [144:20]
Joe Rogan
That's live in concert. Are you going everywhere you like?
- [144:23]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah. I mean, we're about to put out new dates, too, for the fall. We're gonna be all over east coast, the West Coast.
- [144:30]
Joe Rogan
We're going to be everywhere but hell, yeah. Sorry. Kansas City, that sold out.
- [144:34]
Lucas Nelson
Oh, that was a while ago. Yeah, yeah, that was. Yeah. The ones coming up, Charlottesville, Virginia. Allentown, Pennsylvania.
- [144:41]
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, those are May.
- [144:42]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [144:44]
Joe Rogan
So there's plenty of stuff coming up.
- [144:45]
Lucas Nelson
For people that want. Montana is going to be great.
- [144:48]
Joe Rogan
Big sky.
- [144:48]
Lucas Nelson
Big Sky.
- [144:49]
Joe Rogan
Park City, Utah.
- [144:50]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, there you go.
- [144:51]
Joe Rogan
Wyoming. All right.
- [144:52]
Lucas Nelson
Yeah, man. Thank you.
- [144:53]
Joe Rogan
Thank you.
- [144:54]
Lucas Nelson
It was fun.
- [144:54]
Joe Rogan
I enjoyed it. All right, bye, everybo.
- [145:00]
Lucas Nelson
Sam.