The Joe Rogan Experience #2360 - Caroline Fraser

Release Date: August 5, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Caroline Fraser
Book Discussed: Murderland

Introduction

In episode #2360 of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan welcomes Caroline Fraser, author of the compelling book Murderland. The conversation delves deep into the unsettling connections between environmental pollution—specifically lead and arsenic—and the rise of serial killers in the Pacific Northwest during the 1970s.

Overview of "Murderland"

Caroline Fraser introduces her book, Murderland, which explores the prevalence of serial killers in the Pacific Northwest and investigates the potential environmental factors contributing to this phenomenon.

[00:32] Caroline: “I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the 1970s, around the time when there were a lot of serial killers beginning to pop up.”

Environmental Pollution and Aggression

Fraser posits a strong connection between lead pollution from smelters and leaded gasoline and increased aggression and violence, potentially fostering an environment conducive to serial killers.

[06:35] Joe Rogan: “So this issue of lead pollution, is it just serial killers or is there an elevated amount of violent crime that goes along with it?”

[06:47] Caroline Fraser: “Most of the research that’s been done has focused on aggression, juvenile delinquency, for example... delinquency and crime.”

She elaborates on studies showing how even low levels of lead exposure can lead to significant behavioral issues, including increased violent crime rates.

Historical Use of Lead and Arsenic

Fraser provides a historical backdrop, tracing the introduction of leaded gasoline in the 1920s and its widespread use until the 1990s. She highlights the role of large-scale smelting operations, such as Asarco in Tacoma and El Paso, Texas, in contributing to environmental lead contamination.

[12:05] Joe Rogan: “Oh, God.”

[12:06] Caroline Fraser: “It’s really almost unreal to think about the moral failure that this represents.”

Fraser discusses how corporations prioritized profits over human health, knowingly exposing populations to toxic levels of lead.

Case Studies: Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway, Richard Ramirez

The discussion shifts to notorious serial killers like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, both of whom grew up in Tacoma during the smelter's operation. Fraser suggests that their significant lead exposure may have influenced their violent behaviors.

[20:41] Joseph: “So that may have been his first murder.”

[21:00] Caroline Fraser: “I think it’s worth thinking about what lead contributed to crime during that period.”

Fraser connects environmental toxins to the psychopathology observed in these killers, emphasizing the lack of early behavioral signs typically associated with such crimes.

Broader Impacts on Crime Rates

Fraser presents data indicating a surge in violent crime rates during the 1970s and 1980s, correlating this rise with the peak periods of lead pollution.

[29:02] Caroline Fraser: “There was the Industrial Revolution, baby boom generation coming of age... toxins that were becoming really prevalent.”

[35:39] Caroline Fraser: “In 1973, children in Kellogg had an average of 50 micrograms per deciliter of blood lead. The CDC recommends 5 micrograms as a concern.”

She cites Rick Nevin's research in Lucifer Curves, illustrating how the decline of leaded gasoline directly correlates with decreases in violent crime rates.

Corporate Malfeasance and Government Responsibility

Fraser criticizes the role of corporations in perpetuating environmental pollution and the government's inadequate response in enforcing regulations. She highlights the actions of Asarco and the significant settlements required to address the extensive contamination.

[44:03] Caroline Fraser: “It was a debt controlled demolition.”

[47:56] Joe Rogan: “So listen to this... children living in Kellogg were screened for lead...”

Fraser underscores the government's reliance on Superfund programs to manage the aftermath of corporate negligence, which often falls short due to insufficient funding and enforcement.

Remediation Efforts and Challenges

The conversation explores the complexities of environmental remediation, detailing the efforts to clean contaminated sites like Tacoma and Coeur d'Alene. Despite significant financial settlements, Fraser points out the ongoing challenges in fully restoring these areas.

[73:18] Joe Rogan: “What makes a piece of land remediation like a five-acre plot poisonous?”

[77:35] Caroline Fraser: “They built condos on top of a giant plastic-lined garbage bag containing contaminated soil.”

Fraser emphasizes the long-term nature of environmental cleanup and the difficulties in fully eradicating entrenched pollutants from ecosystems.

Psychological Implications: Psychopathy in Corporate Behavior

Fraser draws parallels between the deceptive and harmful behaviors of serial killers and those of corporate executives responsible for environmental damage. She suggests that a lack of empathy and moral responsibility may be more pervasive than commonly acknowledged.

[62:23] Joe Rogan: “They lie.”

[62:24] Caroline Fraser: “They just want to get away with what they’re doing.”

This segment explores the psychological traits that enable both serial killers and corporate offenders to perpetrate significant harm without remorse.

Modern Issues: Fluoride, Plastics, Environmental Toxins

Beyond lead and arsenic, the discussion touches on contemporary environmental concerns such as fluoride in drinking water and microplastics in everyday products. Both hosts express skepticism about the safety and regulation of these substances.

[92:10] Joe Rogan: “There's a direct correlation between high levels of fluoride in the water and lowered IQs.”

[119:16] Joe Rogan: “Glass water bottles leach more chemicals into the water than plastic.”

Fraser concurs, highlighting the ongoing battle against industrial pollutants and the societal complacency that allows such practices to continue.

Conclusion

The episode culminates in a somber reflection on the pervasive impact of industrial pollutants on society and mental health. Caroline Fraser’s Murderland serves as a crucial narrative that intertwines environmental science with true crime, urging listeners to reconsider the hidden influences shaping human behavior.

[130:25] Joe Rogan: “I think you've done the world a great service.”

[130:25] Caroline Fraser: “I hope that my book encourages people to think about these issues in their lives.”

Rogan and Fraser emphasize the importance of awareness and proactive measures in addressing the long-term consequences of environmental negligence.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Caroline Fraser [00:33]: “I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the 1970s, around the time when there were a lot of serial killers beginning to pop up.”

• Joe Rogan [06:35]: “So this issue of lead pollution, is it just serial killers or is there an elevated amount of violent crime that goes along with it?”

• Caroline Fraser [12:06]: “It’s really almost unreal to think about the moral failure that this represents.”

• Joe Rogan [21:05]: “Was this while he was killing or before he started?”

• Caroline Fraser [35:39]: “In 1973, children in Kellogg had an average of 50 micrograms per deciliter of blood lead. The CDC recommends 5 micrograms as a concern.”

• Joe Rogan [62:23]: “They lie.”

• Caroline Fraser [77:35]: “They built condos on top of a giant plastic-lined garbage bag containing contaminated soil.”

• Joe Rogan [92:10]: “There's a direct correlation between high levels of fluoride in the water and lowered IQs.”

• Joe Rogan [130:25]: “I think you've done the world a great service.”

Key Takeaways

1. Environmental Pollution and Crime: Caroline Fraser's research suggests a significant link between industrial pollutants like lead and arsenic and the rise of violent crime, including serial killings, in the Pacific Northwest during the 1970s and 1980s.

2. Corporate Negligence: Large corporations prioritized profits over public health, contributing to extensive environmental contamination while employing deceptive practices to mask the detrimental effects of their operations.

3. Psychological Impact: Exposure to heavy metals can impair brain development, particularly the frontal cortex, leading to increased aggression, impulsivity, and potentially psychopathic behaviors.

4. Regulatory Challenges: Remediation efforts are often hampered by insufficient funding, prolonged legal battles, and ongoing corporate malfeasance, leaving many communities grappling with the long-term consequences of pollution.

5. Modern Environmental Concerns: The discussion extends to contemporary issues such as fluoride in water, microplastics, and other environmental toxins, highlighting the ongoing struggle to balance industrial progress with public health.

6. Awareness and Action: Fraser emphasizes the importance of raising awareness about these hidden influences and encourages proactive measures to mitigate the impact of environmental pollutants on society.

Final Thoughts

The Joe Rogan Experience episode featuring Caroline Fraser provides a thought-provoking exploration of the intersection between environmental science and true crime. It underscores the profound and often overlooked ways in which industrial activities can shape human behavior and societal trends. Fraser's work serves as a crucial reminder of the need for vigilant environmental stewardship and ethical corporate practices to prevent such tragedies from recurring.