#2367 - Jesse Welles

Summary

Joe Rogan Experience #2367 – Jesse Wells (August 19, 2025)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe Rogan sits down with songwriter and musician Jesse Wells (stylized Wells) for a freewheeling conversation about music, society, the healthcare industry, human nature, the state of the media, and more. The tone moves from critical and contemplative to humorous and punchy, with both host and guest riffing off conspiracies, the music business, the American psyche, and the power of songs that “sing the news.” Notably, Wells performs and discusses two pointed topical songs lampooning United Healthcare and philanthropist-capitalists.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jesse Wells' Musical Background and Upbringing

• Earliest Influences: Wells grew up in a creative but non-musical family ("Everyone worked and made art when they weren't working...I felt like they were artistic folks, you know, but they didn't necessarily do music, you know, they're smarter than that." – Wells, 00:35)
• Early Work: Began music young, with inspirations both from his family’s artistry and broader American folk traditions.

2. The United Healthcare Song and Healthcare as a Con

• Song Genesis: Wells began making topical songs inspired by news events—most notably "United Healthcare." This song arose in response to social anger after an assassination related to the healthcare industry.
• The System's Failings: The discussion pivots to how for-profit health care creates perverse incentives, leaving people unprotected (02:08-03:09). Both Joe and Jesse agree the system often feels like a scam, especially with the advent of AI denying claims at unprecedented rates.
  • Joe Rogan: "They're taking your fucking money ... to fight it, you have to go to court, and you usually don't have the money ... and they have a lot of money." (02:11)
  • Wells: "The system would have to be revolution. I mean, you can't have health for, for profit at that point." (03:09)
• Motivation in Medicine: Joe voices concern about socialized medicine removing the incentives for top-tier performance, citing financial motivation’s impact on excellence. (03:17-04:17)
• Songwriting Process: Wells describes his approach: thorough research and distilling complex issues into “punchlines” with a jolly melody, mirroring the craft of stand-up comedy. (06:00-06:54)

3. Topical Music and the Folk Tradition

• "Singing the News": Wells draws inspiration from Woody Guthrie, aiming to continue the folk tradition of documenting and satirizing current events through song. (10:29-13:15)
  • Wells: “I'm gonna do this ... I'm gonna sing the news.” (10:52)
• The American Bard: Wells romanticizes this role as uniquely American, valuing the freedom to satirize the powerful without fear of persecution. (13:44)

4. Institutional Abuse and Historical Atrocities

• Lobotomy & Mental Health: Joe and Jesse discuss the story of Rosemary Kennedy’s lobotomy as a window into the historic abuses of medicine and mental health care, drawing gruesome parallels to today’s questionable practices—“benzos,” psychiatric drugs, and more. (16:08-25:14)
  • Joe Rogan: “The craziest ones … when the side effects of antidepressants are suicide.” (27:58)
• Conspiracies & Atrocity: The conversation delves into the U.S. government’s role in scalp bounties, genocide, and other violent historic practices (35:54-41:46). Joe remarks on the difficulty of reconciling modern society's failings given the horrors of the recent past.
  • Joe Rogan: “People were horrible all throughout human history. And I think that's what we really have to come to grips with.” (40:08)

5. Human Nature, War, and the Cycles of Violence

• Nature of Violence: Wells questions if humans are hardwired for violence via “Heart of Darkness” and “Apocalypse Now” analogies (43:12-46:14). Joe contends war is likely inevitable given human history and resource competition. (48:11-49:52)
• “War Is a Racket” (Smedley Butler): They discuss the general’s insights into war profiteering and the manipulation of public narratives for elite interest (51:02-53:53).

6. Manufactured Chaos & Disinformation

• Government Plots & Conspiracies: The duo floats theories about Operation Northwoods, the Oklahoma City bombing, and law enforcement’s practices of encouraging and then arresting would-be extremists (60:47-74:17).
• Internet Chaos: Joe and Jesse consider the prevalence of bots and manufactured outrage on social media (“bot wars”) as a means to justify censorship and control. (58:21-60:41)

7. The Music Business and Artistic Autonomy

• Music Industry Scams: Wells details modern record label contracts as modern-day “devil’s bargains,” telling artists to be wary of exploitative deals. (118:27-122:17)
• Maintaining Authenticity: Both agree the highest measure of artistic success is retaining authenticity and creative freedom, regardless of commercial incentives. (122:17-123:18)
• Devil’s Bargain Metaphor: The classic trope of the “artist selling his soul” for fame becomes a motif in their discussion about the costs of success. (123:18-124:49)

8. AI and the Future of Creativity

• Music Creation by AI: Joe plays a completely AI-generated indie pop song, sparking a discussion about technological displacement and irreplaceability in art—the only way to survive is to be truly unique. (136:08-140:10)
  • Wells: "If you can be replaced, you will be replaced. All things that can be replaced will be replaced." (139:54)

9. Social Media and the Independent Path

• Disintermediation: Wells praises social media and modern DIY tools as leveling the playing field for musicians. He encourages authenticity, warning that no industry expert “knows what they’re doing” anymore. (117:25-118:10)
• Vampires of the Industry: Both point out how industry gatekeepers and record labels act as “vampires,” only adding pressure and stealing revenue from artists’ success. (118:10-120:05)

10. Power, Philanthropy, and the Ruling Class

• "Philanthro-capitalism": Wells performs his song “Philanthropist” lampooning billionaire philanthropists who profit from global crises and exploit “good works” for power and wealth. (83:41)
• Joe Rogan: “Philanthropy ... is actually very profitable, which is weird. ... Bill Gates made hundreds of millions off the pandemic.” (83:22-83:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joe Rogan (on United Healthcare/American healthcare):
  “They take your fucking money, you pay them, and then when something comes up, you don't get covered and there doesn't seem to be any repercussions.” (02:11)
• Wells (on songwriting topical songs):
  “Let's write 2,000 words so that we can have 300 to sing and boil down the essence of the issue and make it rhyme and, and put a jolly tune behind it.” (06:00)
• Joe Rogan (on Smedley Butler):
  “War is a racket. It always has been. ... A few people make huge fortunes. Butler confessed ... I helped Mexico, especially Tampa, go safe for American oil interests in 1914.” (52:22)
• Wells ("Philanthropist" song):
  “With data's my oil and illness is my business, with guns as my retirement and war as my mistress...” (84:01)
• Joe Rogan (on authenticity):
  “People like authenticity. ... You want to know that someone is actually telling you what they think, and you don't get any of that from them.” (111:15)
• Wells (on being an independent artist):
  “All you have to do is want to play music. ... If they like you, you're, you know, that's good. Yeah. Then everybody will come to you and say, I know how to make this bigger. And they don't know what they're talking about either.” (117:38)
• Joe Rogan (on AI music):
  “Creativity is being replaced in at least a form right in front of our eyes.” (139:44)
• Wells (on irreplaceability):
  “If you can be replaced, you will be replaced. ... But there are things that are irreplaceable, right?” (139:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:26 – 02:33: Wells’ family background and Rogan’s introduction to Wells’ music
• 02:33 – 03:40: Critique of United Healthcare and the con of for-profit health insurance
• 06:00 – 07:27: Songwriting process compared to stand-up, influence of punchline-driven comedians
• 08:43 – 09:59: Live performance: “United Healthcare” song
• 10:29 – 13:11: Folk tradition, Woody Guthrie’s influence
• 16:03 – 24:27: History of lobotomy, mental health care, and current-day pharmaceutical parallels
• 35:54 – 41:46: Scalp bounties, genocide, and U.S. history of violence
• 51:02 – 53:53: “War is a Racket,” Smedley Butler, and profiteering
• 83:41 – 85:37: Performance of “Philanthropist” song
• 136:08 – 140:10: AI-generated music and creativity
• 117:25 – 118:10: The un-gatekept, independent music path

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Tone and Style

• The episode blends satirical humor with biting social critique and a sense of existential bewilderment.
• Wells’ folk, left-libertarian-tinged skepticism meshes with Rogan’s populist, anti-institutional worldview.
• The conversations flow organically, moving through sharp satire, the healing and galvanizing power of music, and anxiety about technological change.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode is far more than a showcase of Jesse Wells’ unique topical songwriting. It’s a philosophical jam session on current events, human nature, and the unstoppable currents of history and innovation. Listeners will find sharp criticisms of healthcare (highlighted by Wells' witty “United Healthcare” tune), deep dives into conspiracy, a probing look at artistry vs. commerce, and a thoughtful torch-passing of the American folk tradition—reimagined for the viral era.

Through memorable songs and sharp banter, Rogan and Wells remind us that while systems and trends may be rigged or corrupt, the act of telling the truth in rhyme or joke is as powerful—and irreplaceable—as ever.

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For More

Follow Jesse Wells at wellsmusic.com or on Instagram at @wellsmusic.
Catch the full Joe Rogan Experience for the [complete conversation and music performances].

Transcript

[Wells]

Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train my day. Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Cheers to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Nice to meet you, man.

[Wells]

Good to meet you.

[Joe Rogan]

I've enjoyed your songs. How did you. Well, first of all, how long you been doing music?

[Wells]

I think most of my life, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you grow up in a musical family or is it just something you picked up on your own?

[Wells]

No, I. Everyone worked and made art when they weren't working.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, okay.

[Wells]

But no music, really. But that I. I liked. I like music.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, what kind of art did your family do?

[Wells]

Like, my mom would always paint. She put like, murals on the. On the walls of the house and stuff. And my old man's a mechanic and he would be tinkering around making all sorts of fun stuff, usually with his welder and whatnot. So, I mean, they were. I felt like they were artistic folks, you know, but they didn't. They didn't necessarily do music, you know, they're smarter than that.

[Joe Rogan]

And so I only know of you from the videos that you put up on Instagram, and specifically, I think it was the United Healthcare guy was the first one.

[Wells]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Which was really good. Dude. It's the lyrics, you. And the timing of it all. You captured the moment. And that song, to me was like, yeah, that's what the fuck is going on.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

That's what's really going on. They don't give a shit about you and they're just trying to make money. And that's why when this guy got shot, there was this reaction from people. Yeah. Which is very rare when someone gets assassinated. When people celebrate.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

When someone's not like a mass murderer or something.

[Wells]

It was bizarre.

[Joe Rogan]

It was bizarre.

[Wells]

It's. It's. I mean, it must mean something is. If people are celebrating.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Wells]

Somebody's death. Yes, something is wrong.

[Joe Rogan]

And all kind across both sides of the aisle. It's not a political thing. It is a human thing. They're like these people, they take your fucking money, you pay them, and then when something comes up, you don't get covered and there doesn't seem to be any repercussions. And to fight it, you have to go to court, and you usually don't have the money to go to court. And they have a lot of money.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And they, you know, have been doing this for a long time, and now they're using AI to make sure that they pay less. So they're using AI to approve cases, and the numbers are even lower than they were before. So United Healthcare always had a lower number than industry standard, right?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Now it's. Even with AI, they're going to be able to chop it down to even lower. It's like, at what point in time does this become against the law? Like, at what point in time is this? Like it's a con game. Like you're paying, you're thinking you're going to get covered. And they're like, nah.

[Wells]

The system would have to be revolution. I mean, you can't have health for, for profit at that point. You'd have to socialize the, the medicine at some point.

[Joe Rogan]

Which I, I agree with up until a point. The problem is human nature. And like, if you, like, if you hurt your shoulder and you want to get, you need to get an operation on your shoulder, you want to go to a guy who does the Lakers, you know what I mean?

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You want to go to a guy who is like, this is the cream of the crop and he is dialed in. He's been doing this forever. He's super focused and motivated and he drives a fucking Mercedes.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

The reason why he drives a Mercedes, he makes a lot of money doing what he's doing. You don't want someone to not feel appreciated, not have the motivation to continue to get really great at their craft. Like there's a thing with just human beings, there's a financial motivation that people have. Cause it's a quantitative thing. You could see it on a ledger. You know that you're making more money because you're doing this and you're working harder and you're getting this reward whether or not it makes sense or not. As soon as you eliminate that and everybody gets the same amount of money and then you, you, you lose all the killers, you lose all the.

[Wells]

All I mean is that you just don't want to have to go to an urgent care and it costs $500 to get a pack of ammo.

[Joe Rogan]

100%. Well, that's a giant scam.

[Wells]

So. And, but that's, that's a scam that so many folks are stuck in.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, that's the only part of the scam. You know, the healthcare scam, it goes so deep. There's so many different layers to this fucking horrible den of vampires.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

You know, because it's. Whenever you can make profit off of people and you, you're involved in a corporation and then the corporation has an interest for its stockholders want more money every year, they want more money every quarter. So that's what they try to do. That's Their focus. And when you're doing that with people's lives and people's health like that, that should be illegal. That's where it gets fucked.

[Wells]

I suppose that's why folks were, you know, it was, it was upsetting to see, you know, I felt like I actually had kind of an unpopular opinion about it and that why, you know, why are we celebrating somebody's death? Like that seems far out to celebrate the murder of somebody with a gun.

[Joe Rogan]

Not only that, I believe unrelated to him in his case.

[Wells]

Like, I mean, how, how far out is that? And so I have, I didn't want, you know, I, I make, I make these tunes, but that one in particular, I was like, how do I even, how do I address this? What do you even say so that.

[Joe Rogan]

So how do you approach something like that? Do you sit down with a pad and pen or do you start writing? Like, how do you, how do you, do you start singing?

[Wells]

Step one is avoid. So I went for, you know, some long jogs. I wrote a song about Amazon instead and put up like, Amazon is Santa Claus. I kept sitting there and it kept getting, you know, the situation was snowballing with the United Healthcare thing and it was like, okay, you gotta write. And at that point it's, it's a research project. You know, let's write, let's write 2,000 words so that we can have 300 to sing and boil down the essence of the issue and make it rhyme and, and put a jolly tune behind it. That's really, that's, that's kind of how that, that goes about.

[Joe Rogan]

That sounds like super similar to stand up comedy. Boil it down.

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get every. And you don't. It's just punchlines. So find the punchline of everything. Find the punchline of everything. I never had the attention span to tell too much of a story or anything like that. So I like, I, I like just keeping it in punchline. So I always like, you know, Mitch Hedberg and Steven Wright, we're so good at, we're so good at that. Just come out and lay out a bunch of punchlines immediately. If one doesn't land on to the.

[Joe Rogan]

Next one, well, they, Their whole. That was the daunting thing about their act, which is so impressive. Is that all. It's all non sequiturs. So every subject is new. Every time they open their mouth, it's a new subject.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is kind of crazy. It's a crazy way to do comedy.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But when you're an absurdist, it's probably the best way. Because it's an absurd way to think, right? You're just going from one subject to the next in each minute burst.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, somebody asked me if I want a frozen banana and I said no, but I want a regular banana later. So. Yes.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's like such a ridiculous joke. I used to love listening to him in particular when I was in traffic because it would like chill me out. Like if I was headed to the airport in LA and it was just fucking clusterfuck on the highway, I just throw on some Mitch Hedberg, just start giggling. It's just silly, you know, He's.

[Wells]

He's one of the coolest.

[Joe Rogan]

He was awesome. He was awesome. He was awesome. Let's play that song. Jamie, can you find that one? The United Healthcare song. I want to play it so people know what we're talking about. So people.

[Wells]

Deny it. What you roll? There ain't no you in United Health There ain't no me in the company There ain't no us in the private trust there's hardly humans in humanity now the procedure that you're needing ain't the cost effective rootin only 2% of people end up winning a dispute so if you get sick, pray to God for health. Cause your doctor's gotta pray to UnitedHealth. Way back in 77, Mr. Richard T. Burke started buying HMOs back putting federal grants to work made 50 billion buckaroos last year the Warren Buffett of help the Jeff Bezos of fear now CEOs come and go and want just with the ingredients you got bake the cake you get. But if you get sick, cross your fingers for luck Cause ol Richard T. Burke ain't giving a fuck. Commoditized health, monopolized fraud here's the doctors we own and the research we bought they own the pharmacy and a lot of the meds they should start buying graves to sell us when we're all dead. There ain't no you in United Health Ain't no me in the company they know us in the private just. There's hardly humans in humanity. There's hardly humans in humanity.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, dude, that's a great song. That's a great song. And it's interesting to me how few people are doing what you're doing. I don't know of anyone else. I'm sure there probably is a few people out there that I miss, but I don't know of anybody else who takes things that are in the zeitgeist. These big stories that come up and turns them into a catchy tune and does it in a way where you laid out, you know, really the problem and the whole thing, like you said, in punchlines.

[Wells]

Yeah. You know, there's a lot. There's a lot of folks doing it right now and. And more every day. But there was. I mean, there's a precedent for that kind of work, especially as far as, like, Woody. Woody Guthrie was really the. I was reading. I was reading a Woody Guthrie biography, and my. My old man was in the hospital. He had just had a heart attack, and we didn't know, like, what way it was gonna go or whatever. Anyway, I don't know. Just seeing him all hooked up to that stuff and thinking if he were. If. If he died, I've hardly. I've hardly had any time to even know him. He's hardly had any time to know anything. We don't get very long down here. And I'm reading this. This Woody Guthrie biography, and I was just like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do this. You know, I'm gonna sing the. Sing the news. Because that's really what. What Woody was kind of was kind of doing in his day. Because there was. There's folk music around him, and he team up with Pete Seeger, and he's on radio programs. And he could have played. He had that. He had the choice. He could have played standards. He could have played country western music and stuff like that. But he liked making folks laugh and he liked telling it how it was. I like both those things.

[Joe Rogan]

I saw Woody Guthrie live when I was a little kid in San Francisco.

[Wells]

Arlo or Woody?

[Joe Rogan]

I think Woody. Which one was alive back then? Was it Arlo? Yeah. Okay, so it must have been Arlo. So it was 19. Let me guess. The year I was 11?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So maybe. Yeah, 10 or 11.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it was San Francisco, so it had to be. I lived there until I was 11, so it was probably around 9 or 10, now that I think about it. But, yeah, he performed live. God, I wish I could remember more of it.

[Wells]

I mean, Arlo played this kind of. He went a little more surreal with it, which is super groovy. But he carried, you know, he carried on the torch for his old man.

[Joe Rogan]

So Woody died in what year?

[Jamie]

67.

[Wells]

67, yeah. He got the. He got a Huntington's disease and was laid up in a home for quite a while. He lost the ability to speak.

[Joe Rogan]

And what is a hunting.

[Wells]

Some. A rare genetic disorder. I don't really Know what it does? Other than. Yeah, look, he was. He's pretty young.

[Joe Rogan]

Of nerve cells in the brain.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

His mother also suffered from the same illness.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So what causes that? I, you know, why do I have.

[Wells]

A feeling Bad luck.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe not, man. Why don't I have a feeling there's some environmental toxin involved?

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I'm saying?

[Wells]

He was sitting next to it. He was in East Palestine, Pennsylvania.

[Joe Rogan]

No way.

[Wells]

No, no, I'm kidding. But I mean, well, obviously it's a.

[Joe Rogan]

Different time, but there's so many parts of the country that have been polluted by industrial waste.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

There's so much horrible shit out there.

[Wells]

I mean, maybe he was riding on trains and boxcars and stuff. There's no telling what they were hauling around and that sort of thing. But he, you know, he played the political tunes. He. He really. I don't. And maybe he's a continuation of. Of a long standing human tradition of like bards going from town to town and singing the news. I don't know, maybe there was some medieval dude going around singing about the king, you know, and I don't remember, but maybe, maybe, maybe there was. Just because I don't. I like. I don't know if it's a uniquely American tradition, but when I do it, I like to. I get romantic about it and kind of think of it as a uniquely American tradition because you got the freedom to do it and no one's gunning me down in the. In the field there or anything for anything I say, you know. So I get to, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's why I doubt what any. If anybody was ever doing anything the way you do it when they were doing it for. About the king. The knights. The knights. Go hunt him down or something. Yeah, maybe a few guys tried, but I bet they killed them.

[Wells]

Or maybe you hired you, you co opted the bard. You turned him into your fool, your jester or whatever, and then he sang songs for you about how fat the neighbor king was.

[Joe Rogan]

Think that's a different guy? I think you're dealing with a different guy. The guy who is the jester. Fucking vampire familiar? Yeah, you know, like in Blade, the guys want to get close to the vampires because they want eventually one day want to be a vampire. They're promised it.

[Wells]

Who is in the Lord of the Rings? Who is like Theoden's dude? Worm, tongue, something. Anyway, I don't remember.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't remember people very close, but it's that there's. That's always the Dracula story. There's always a familiar. There's always a human that does the bidding of the vampire.

[Wells]

Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that guy. Yeah. Perfect. Exactly. Yeah. Same kind of guy. Creep with a questionable hard drive.

[Wells]

Did he. Was he in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest?

[Joe Rogan]

Was he? God, that seems weird.

[Wells]

Billy Babbitt.

[Joe Rogan]

He would be so old.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

One Flew over the Cuckoo's nest.

[Wells]

Is it 67 or something? Yeah, it was a long time ago. I mean, but was it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's been in everything. That's him now. Not now. That's him. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't that crazy? Time is such a motherfucker.

[Wells]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

He was in One Floor as a cuckoo's nest.

[Wells]

Far out.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

75. That's a great movie too. Yeah, that's an eye opening movie about health care. Speaking of which.

[Wells]

Well, yeah. In an air. In an era of sanatoriums, you know, and stuff where you.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And then people glorified that. It's like, we need more mental health institutes. That's why there's so many homeless people on the street. And like, have you ever been. We definitely need more mental health. 100%. Those people need care. But do they need the kind of care that they were getting before they were released on the street when they were giving people electroshock therapy and fucking cooking their brains?

[Wells]

Those at least whatever's going on in One Floor of the Cuckoo's Nest is essentially a prison.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, they're all.

[Wells]

With electroshock therapy.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And. And lobotomies until like 67.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They were just cooking people's brains with a wand. Getting in there and scrambling up your brain. It says did they did lobotomies for decades? Yeah, decades. Until enough people had their loved ones turned into zombies that they were like, hey, maybe we should probably fucking stop that.

[Wells]

Didn't they lobotomize Kennedy? Kennedy?

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Apparently she was just wild.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's all it was. Well, first of all.

[Wells]

So I would have been lobotomized.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know if you. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, first of all, the men were wild. She was wild sexually. Is that part of the accusation that she was very promiscuous? They had a problem with her and they wanted her to calm down, so they fucking scrambled her brains. And apparently she became non functional. Like they really kind of. They, you know, they dialed it up to 10, so. And that was it for her. This is part of the show where I talk about AG1, which I've done for years. And usually I like to talk about routine. And don't get me wrong, because routine is super important. And AG1 is exactly the kind of daily, easy routine that can help you feel healthy and help you get the nutrients that your body needs. But even if you love a routine, isn't it nice to switch it up a little bit? Well, here we go. After 15 years of the original, AG1 has introduced three new flavors, Tropical berry and citrus. It's still daily, it's still a routine, but it's no longer one flavor fits all. And honestly, the best part is that's the only thing that's changed besides new flavors. We're talking about the same science, the same 75 plus ingredients, and the same exact benefits. I partnered with AG1 for so long because they're committed to constantly improving. And now that includes offering three new flavors. Subscribe today and choose Tropical Citrus Berry or the classic original variety. If you use my link, you'll also get a free bottle of AG D3K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit and five AG1 travel packs with your first subscription. Just go to drinkag1.com joerogan or head to the link in the description to get started with AG1 and try the new flavors yourself. That's drinkag1.com Joe Rogan When Kennedy was 23, doctors told her father lobotomy would help calm her mood swings and stop her occasional violent outburst.

[Wells]

23.

[Joe Rogan]

So Joe Senior decided 23 decided Rosemary should have a lobotomy. However, he did not inform his wife, oh my God. Until after the procedure was completed. The procedure took place November 1941. Sins of the Father in the book 1996 biography, James W. Watts, who carried out the procedure with Walter Freeman, both of George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences, described to Kessler as falls. After Rosemary was mildly sedated, we went through the top of her head, Dr. Watts recalled. I think she was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch. The instruments Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife, and he swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. We put an instrument inside, he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary some questions. For example, he asked her to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing God Bless America or to count backward. We made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded. When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they Stopped.

[Wells]

What a tragedy. Holy cow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, scroll back up. Go back up. Scroll up so I can hear it.

[Wells]

How many folks were getting these?

[Joe Rogan]

The nuns of the Covenant thought that Rosemary might become involved with sexual partners and that she could contact a sexually transmitted disease or become pregnant. Her occasionally erratic behavior frustrated her parents, so she got expelled from summer camp, and she was staying, it says, and staying only for a few months at a Philadelphia boarding school. Kennedy was sent to a convent school in Washington, D.C. kennedy began sneaking out of the convent school at night. The nuns in the convent thought that she might be involved with sexual partners and that she might get an STD or become pregnant. And so then they decided to give her a fucking lobotomy. Imagine that you send a young, healthy girl to a convent with a bunch of fucking creepy nuns, and she just, like, breaks out in the middle of the night, like, go to hang out with her friends or go meet up with a guy or fucking something.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And so they go, well, the solution to this is cut her brain and have her talk until she can't talk anymore. And then we know when to stop cutting.

[Wells]

That's insane. Meanwhile, Kennedy's got his. That wasn't even a hunt. Running his escapades.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, they all were. The father was like.

[Wells]

There's.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know whether it's true or not true, because we used to say it, and then there's been things disputing it. But of course, who knows how much money is involved in this in the first place. But supposedly Kennedy senior was involved in illegal liquor during the time where there was prohibition in this country.

[Wells]

I thought he was a mobster.

[Joe Rogan]

He definitely knew some people, which was what helped his son win Illinois.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. It's just like. I don't know what's true and what's not true in terms of him being a moonshine runner.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

But it tracks, you know, and the.

[Wells]

Whole family seems like an incredibly lucrative business to get into. During Prohibition. I don't know who. Who wouldn't be running liquor, especially when.

[Joe Rogan]

You can control the police, you know, Especially when you had money and you were involved and you had your foot dipped in all sorts of organized crime and, you know, then you had souped up NASCAR cars that were. They were using to drive.

[Wells]

Yeah, I guess that's the roots of. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So if it's running from the couch.

[Wells]

If it weren't for Joe, we wouldn't have had. Wouldn't have. Dale.

[Joe Rogan]

Wouldn'T have had the. The loop. Yeah, It's. It's just a. A Crazy practice that they did for a long, long time just to get rid of people that were a problem.

[Wells]

So what's the modern lobotomy? What are we doing right now that we're gonna read on wiki or, you know, whatever?

[Joe Rogan]

There's probably a few of them.

[Wells]

15.

[Joe Rogan]

There's probably quite a few.

[Wells]

Holy cow.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure we were transitioning children. I'm sure that's going to be on that list.

[Wells]

Or taking, I don't know, like, like, then, like prescribing benzos and stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's going to be on that list for sure.

[Wells]

You know, benzos just like. Like a chemical lobotomy or.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, benzo doesn't give you a chemical lobotomy, but it does make you 100% hooked on it.

[Wells]

Yeah. Or it's just the difference. The stress you would undergo getting out of the addiction, you might never. You might never come. Come back fully or get your life all the way back after an addiction like that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I know several people that have had that problem. And it is a real struggle.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, Jordan Peterson has publicly talked about it. It took him over a year to recover physically just from being addicted.

[Wells]

And that's actually going to rehabs and stuff like that. There's a lot of folks, most folks, they ain't going to.

[Joe Rogan]

They don't have the money nowhere right now.

[Wells]

They get off it and then drink themselves to death or, or do cocaine or do something else and find something.

[Joe Rogan]

Or, you know, or the psychiatrist puts you on some new kind of pills to satisfy whatever the fuck was wrong with you in the first place.

[Wells]

You can get off one and hop over to the other, huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Go back and forth and it's a real problem. And when someone gets on that ride, it's hard to get off. It's hard to get off to take this pill to fix it. Ride. Yeah, that ride is a very popular ride.

[Wells]

Yeah, I. I mean, folks like having a. Having a doctor tell them it's all right, you know, I guess it's like a. It's like if they get it, they're an authority figure, told them it's all good to take this pill, you know, with.

[Joe Rogan]

Especially with benzos, especially in the early days, nobody even told them that it was almost impossible to get off of.

[Wells]

I mean, couldn't a patient kind of figure that out pretty quick?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, they don't because they keep taking it. Right. You keep taking it because you're addicted to it.

[Wells]

If you forget, Forget a dose, you start feeling those withdrawals come in, you Know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, apparently with. Find this out if this is true. Apparently one of the things about benzodiazepine is that it alleviates anxiety. But if you stop taking it, your anxiety maybe even elevates past where it was before you first took it.

[Wells]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So there's like a slingshot effect saying.

[Wells]

When you get off of anything, all sorts of stuff rattles loose in your head, man.

[Joe Rogan]

For sure. For sure.

[Wells]

And everything gets. Everything gets worse for a period of time.

[Joe Rogan]

What I was going to get at is it's one of the few where you could die if you get off of it.

[Wells]

Right. It's like that and alcohol. Those are like the two things. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

So here it. Early withdrawal. An individual may experience a return of anxiety and insomnia symptoms as the brain rebounds without the drugs. But it doesn't say rebound. How long does it last? Many people stop taking these medications, experience increased anxiety or restlessness, referred to as rebound anxiety. Rebound effects from benzo withdrawal, such as anxiety or insomnia typically last two to three days. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true.

[Wells]

The insomnia itself is. Is enough to cause all sorts of different.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. How long does benzo belly. What is that? Benzo belly can depend. Is it like a diarrhea, such as the type of dose of benzo? The. What does it mean some people experience.

[Wells]

What does it say they should.

[Joe Rogan]

What does it say it is? Benzo belly. What to know. Put that common side of. Oh. Cramps. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Gastrointestinal symptoms.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, well, you're. Add that to poisoning your insides to the Pepto list. Your body's like, what are you doing? Oh, look at. You could get nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, bloating, ingestion. You know how they do that at the end of the commercial?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Indigestion, loss of appetite, constipation, weight loss, bloody diarrhea. You might want to die. That's the craziest ones. When the side effects of antidepressants are suicide.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There ain't no you in United.

[Wells]

They make. They make. Folks are making money.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

Keep the money rolling in.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. As long as they keep mushrooms illegal. There's a lot of things that could be fixed in a very natural way that people have been doing for thousands of years that you can't do. At least in Texas they opened up ibogaine again.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's new where, you know they're going to do these. They've done them so far, these trials with soldiers, and it's super effective, man. Especially for getting off drugs.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like really, really, really effective. Like 80% for one dose. In the 90s for two dose people just quit pills, quit everything, quit drinking, whatever.

[Wells]

Amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

Whatever's with you.

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's natural tools out there to figure out. Like people get in patterns, right. They get in these terrible behavior patterns and they don't know why, they don't know how to get out of them. They keep falling into them because they're like tightly grooved into the way you think.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And unless you can leave for a moment the, the connection that you have to this existence where you're completely continually trapped by your patterns. Unless you can leave and look at those patterns, you just, you're just fighting against so much gravity and so much momentum and. And then whatever your, the life that you've chosen, the pat. You know, you're around the same people, you're. There's so many things that make it very difficult to really change your life outside of escaping briefly and getting a look at it from, you know, some.

[Wells]

Says like ibogaine, like, like smooth out all the ruts.

[Joe Rogan]

I began. I've never done it, so I can't really speak to this. But from the people that have done it, what they explain that does. First of all, it actually stops physical addiction somehow. They don't totally understand how it's doing this, but it stops physical, physical addiction and sort of rewires the way your brain and for lack of a better term looks at addiction. It also is. It's not a drug that you could abuse recreationally. Apparently it's not a fun time and it's a 24 hour experience. And this 24 hour experience, is it psychedelic? Yes. And this 24 hour experience is essentially a review of your life and showing you like, you remember this happen and these guys beat you up after school and then that sent you down this road and then this is why you think about this and this and it like lays out why you're in all these different fucked up patterns in your life.

[Wells]

Do you have a. Like a spirit guide?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think it's.

[Wells]

I've gained counsel.

[Joe Rogan]

You mean while you're doing it?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they have centers. What is the place called in Mexico that former Republican governor Rick Perry is an advocate of this?

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And he went to that. Is it beyond B E O N D? They have to. They've. For the longest time they've been doing these things down in Mexico. Because it's legal there, right?

[Wells]

Does ayahuasca do something similar?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, that's. A lot of people go down to Costa Rica and do that. Or there's certain churches that have a religious exemption in America.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is wild.

[Wells]

What? What?

[Joe Rogan]

Go to church and really meet Jesus?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, for real. For real.

[Wells]

Go to Utah or Wyoming and like, New Mexico.

[Joe Rogan]

Places like that is like, you know, somewhere where we're like, well, how many followers you got? You got 1400. All right, well, don't get too big.

[Wells]

I've been to a church in a couple basements. Like, really?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you know, the weird thing is, if anybody wants to start a new church now, like, good luck, they'll crawl up your fucking ass with a microscope. Like, if you want to start a new church now, it better be a Christian church. Like, you better be following the same religions that people have been following for thousands and thousands of years. Because if you try to cook up a new religion today, they will waco you, son. They will fucking.

[Wells]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, you get a good following.

[Wells]

Religion, they get weirder and weird. Like, in America, they get weirder and weirder. Kind of the more west we went, the more we Manifest Destiny. Because, like, you have, like, Puritan pilgrims land and, you know, in New England, and the weirdest of them move a little bit more west, or they just go to the Quakers, just go to, like, Nantucket. You know, they'll be on an island and be isolated. But, you know, eventually, in about a hundred years, you've got Mormons.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Wells]

You know, and then give it another hundred something years. Then you got Scientology out in California.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you seen American Primeval?

[Wells]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

The Netflix series?

[Wells]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Really good. Really good. And it's about, you know, the settling of the west. But a big part of it is the Mormons.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And how gangster. The more we think of Mormons as being like, these really sweet people. Like, no, not back then.

[Wells]

No, no, no, no. Nothing. Nothing was in the west, man. Yeah, it was. It was death and car. Like, I don't know. I imagine it like blood meridian, like, McCarthy's. McCarthy's book, where basically, you know, like, follows the story of, like, this kid who goes on a scalping mission, you know, or their job is to go down into Guadalajara and then come up in through the States and they just. They scalp pretty much everyone they meet indiscriminately and then take those scalps back for dough. It's, you know, for a bounty, which is crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

How much is the scalps? Worth.

[Wells]

I don't. I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Imagine that you just find some dude who's like, taking care of a lawn or something like that.

[Wells]

I take that over a lobotomy.

[Joe Rogan]

Some people live, grow back.

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

People that lived.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's really crazy.

[Wells]

I've seen that picture as like someone had been.

[Joe Rogan]

Guy had a top hat on over this giant wound, wound over the top of his head, which I wonder how long he lived because he basically had like an open skull facing the earth.

[Wells]

I guess you play dead. Well, it's going.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't. Maybe they just let him live.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know, man. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. There is such a thing as having too many options to choose from. Like when you're scrolling on the TV trying to find something to watch. Or have you been to one of those ice cream shops where they have hundreds of different toppings to choose from? It's overwhelming. The same thing can happen when you're hiring and you get inundated with applications. Well, it's time to stop stressing and use ZipRecruiter instead. Their innovative resume database can help you find and connect with the best people for your role. Try it for free [e-mail] Rogan what makes ZipRecruiter's resume database so special is the advanced filtering feature. You can use it to hone in on exactly what you're looking for from the hundreds of thousands of resumes that are uploaded monthly to the site. And when you find a potential candidate, you can unlock their contact info instantly. Skip the candidate overload. Streamline your hiring with Zip Recruiter. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day? Just go to this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com Rogan Again. Right now, try it for free. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com RogAN ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire Chihuahua's bounty program. Fortune offered fortune seekers 150 to 200 Mexican pesos for each Apache, depending on age and sex. Men worth 50 pesos more than women. And children. And children.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Today that equates to about $8,200 per scalp.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So far more than most prospectors would ever make in the California gold fields. $8,000 per scalp. That's crazy. How many people, just innocent people that just happen to have dark hair, got.

[Wells]

Scalped and oh, they would, like in McCarthy's book, at least which it follows. The Glanton gang. I'm pretty sure at times they kill some of their own gang, I'm sure, just because they were dark haired.

[Joe Rogan]

The most prolific of these operatives was an Irish American named James Kirker, who led a massacre of more than 150 Apaches in 1846 and ultimately killed at least 320 Indians during his bounty hunting campaigns. Scalp trade. $8,200 for scalps. You imagine like if you, if you have a lawless country which is essentially what the Wild west, what that was?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you. You offer up $8,000 every time you kill a person.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, you can get rid of people, people quick.

[Wells]

And you're gonna have the wildest of the wild, are gonna go out there and tame that land, man.

[Joe Rogan]

The craziest of the crazy.

[Wells]

Yeah. And that's essentially calls them, calls them out the.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, and that wasn't that long ago. No, that's what's so crazy. You know, we're talking about 150 years. Like, what is it? But how long ago was it? Not that long ago. In California, scalp warfare eliminated nearly 90% of some tribal populations. Holy.

[Wells]

Were they doing that into the 1890s?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, that's 135 years ago.

[Wells]

How.

[Joe Rogan]

How crazy is that?

[Wells]

It's pretty wild.

[Joe Rogan]

That's hard to believe.

[Wells]

You.

[Joe Rogan]

Direct government support for bounty payouts. Whoa. Direct government support for bounty payouts with blunt calls for the extermination of tribes and mass murder of men, women and children, provides an important new perspective on the question of genocide across the long arc of Euro American interaction with Native communities. The apache scalp that FBI agencies in 2022 is one of thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, that were taken, redeemed, displayed in rare cases like this one, preserved as a part of a long and gruesome history of scalp warfare. So. So it was in an auction house. That's how they found it. Whoa. FBI investigating Apache scalps seized from Fairfield Auction House. The item was seized from the Pulleen Art Antiques and Auction House as part of an investigation into the illegal trafficking of human remains. Whoa.

[Wells]

And like when.

[Joe Rogan]

Imagine someone kept that.

[Wells]

When does the karma come in on. On this bloodshed that found that, you know, that founded.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm certain it did for the individuals involved.

[Wells]

I just, I wonder if it's generational if these things, if the, if the universe will continue to sort itself out over this, over this time.

[Joe Rogan]

I think this is a very unique time for understanding people. You know, I think we have to you know, when people look at all the conflict and all the drama with human beings right now, you have to realize, like, yes, yes, we could certainly live better lives, and we certainly have. We can certainly have a better civilization than we have right now. We can do better, but we also have to realize what we're coming from. Like, to make it an adjustment from 1890 to 2025. I mean, this is a big swing of this fucking battleship.

[Wells]

Unrecognizable.

[Joe Rogan]

People were horrible all throughout human history. And I think that's what we really have to come to grips with. It's not just. I mean, we can go back to the Mongol invasions in the. The 19. What was. What is your. The year 1200. How long ago was that? What year was that with the Mongols? I think it was in the 1200s, you know, I mean, the Inquisition, we can. We can go to World War I, World War II. People were horrible forever. And it's just more people are talking about it now than ever before. You know, you had universities in America which were. The anti war movement started the 1960s, and the hippies, and they were starting to get acid and realized, like, there's more to life. Like, this is bullshit. The way our parents are living is bullshit. They're miserable and they're gonna die. And yeah, it's. It takes a long time to turn this big ass battleship around. But I think we have to give ourselves some understanding about the past and realize, like, part of the reason why we're so fucked up today is like, look what we come from, right? Yeah, look what we come from. I know we can do better. We definitely can do better. We should do better. We could have a way better life, way better society. But look where we come from, we come from madness.

[Wells]

Yeah. Absolute chaos. Chaos and bloodshed, my friend.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just the ability that a person has to sign off. A person in the government, say, yeah, okay, give them some money so they go kill some Indians indiscriminately. Give them $8,000 per scalp and a little less for the women and children.

[Wells]

Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, 130 years ago, 140 years ago, 150 years ago. That's. That's nothing, man. Right, that's nothing. You know, that's your great grandpa. He was alive back then. Hard to believe.

[Wells]

It's far out, and it really is, man. I. I wonder if things are, you know, probably seem a lot cleaner as far as chaos and bloodshed now in the continental U.S. and the union and stuff, but who is sending folks to go do that abroad to protect the homeland. You know, under the auspices of protecting.

[Joe Rogan]

The homeland who's doing the exact same thing as they were doing then, just in a different way.

[Wells]

Because I really think we stay this as much as has changed and we can measure that. We can totally cam. I think also we stay the same, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, until we're forced to change. Yeah. And that until something. Or until we recognize the need to change collectively.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But there has to be a discussion of it. It's not something that just organically happens. You know.

[Wells]

I think of like do you ever see this Hollywood. But Apocalypse Now.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Wells]

Francis Ford Coppola and he's got like Martin Sheen and Marlon Brando and Dennis Hopper and Robert Duvall and all those cool cats and dope movie. But it's written on this premise of a book that was written in like 1899 by Joseph Conrad. Like Heart of Darkness.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh wow, it's that old.

[Wells]

And Heart of Darkness was talking about a conquest of I believe the Dutch, I'm not sure into the Congo and some atrocities and stuff that were happening there. Treating people as subhuman. And I don't know if there was. I don't know if there was scalping or anything but I think that there was slavery and that sort of thing. But. And Coppola was able to adapt that and then put the Vietnam War as the new premise going into. I think they. I think Sheen's mission in the movie at least was to go. Go upriver into Cambodia or Laos, I'm not sure which. And take out a rogue US General who had basically enslaved a population of indigenous there. All that to say. I wonder if like in Vietnam if the folks fighting out there felt like in that moment, in that moment where you're. Where you're killing somebody. If you realize at that point that nothing has ever changed and that there's something primeval in man with this violence. That this violence is innate. Is this violence innate? Is this how folks are? And there's no helping it. And there's nothing that's ever going to change it because you can get kind of cynical that way or. And I kind of tend on this more idealistic and at times it seems naive or stupid to have an ideal that folks could live in harmony and peace without taking one another's lives. You know.

[Joe Rogan]

The problem is they've never done it before.

[Wells]

That's mind boggling. Mind boggling because it is in all. I think it's in a lot of us deep down. I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it has to Be. Because it's the only way we survived. That's the only way we got to where we are today, right? Because we existed before language, we existed before empathy, before we understood each other, before we can communicate. So anybody being that you didn't know from somewhere else wanted what you had, and they would try to take it by force. So the bigger, stronger one survived. And that's why the best genetics kept going and going and going. I mean, it was survival of the fittest. It exists in nature and exists with humans, and that's the basis of our DNA, unfortunately. Like, that's how we started, right? And so that the way it manifests itself today is fucking drone warfare, right? And bombs and, you know, dropping bunker busters out of B2s. You know, that's what it is. Or B12. Is that what it is? The B12? What's the big one? B2 feels like it should be a bigger number because it looks like a spaceship. You see how they flew it over Putin? Like, look at my dick, my flying dick. Duh, duh, duh, duh. You see, Trump did that when Putin was in Alaska. They flew a bomber over his head. Like, what are we doing? Why are we flying? Why are we flying the radar resistant bomber over Putin's head?

[Wells]

It sounds like a show of force.

[Joe Rogan]

Look at my.

[Wells]

Dude, this is what these games. But, like, is it. Yeah, I just. I wonder, is it within humans to. To exist in, like, in. In peace, without. Without.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, we certainly can't be done in small groups, right? Like, if you, me and Jamie. I've said this before, but you know, about other guests. If we were on an island all together, we wouldn't lock each other up. We wouldn't. We just. Yeah, we just figured, like, okay, I'm gonna go fishing today. We need firewood. You want to get the firewood?

[Wells]

I'm gonna go for a long jog.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay? Get that jog in. Get your cardio in. You know what I'm saying? Like, we wouldn't. There was. There's only a limited amount of us. We wouldn't have a need to go to war. And most war today is about resources. Most war today is about controlling parts of the world where there's an infinite amount of money in the ground, whether it's oil or. Now it's rare earth minerals and stuff they need for batteries. And that's what a lot of it is. I mean, that's what a lot of conflict is in this world. And that's gross. It's scary. It's scary. But if you ask the average person, like, what are the odds that there would be no more war in your lifetime? And they'll say, zero percent. Yeah, everyone will say zero percent.

[Wells]

It's so far out. It's just like, I think, you know, the folks that. That go to war, like, if you. If you signed up and went to. And went to Iraq and, you know, and like, oh, oh, 3, 06 or so, you know, and you're securing or not, maybe not Iraq, but you're going to Afghanistan and you're securing opium fields and stuff, and you're out there, you're risking your life, you got the gun on you, are prepared to take somebody's life, but for. But for what? And. And like, we need opium, but we'll fight, we'll fight, we'll fight. It seems like for the sake of. Just for the sake of the hunt or something like that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, if you ask the soldiers when they're signing up, hey, do you want to go to Afghanistan and guard poppy fields? They've been like, what? No, I want to fight terrorism, motherfucker. I want to stop the people that did 911 from doing it again. That's why a lot of people signed up. But then the reality kicks in. Once you're standing around poppy fields with a machine gun and you're like, oh, yeah, oh, this is a scam. You know, I don't know how much Internet access they had while they were over there, but if they did and they ever Googled what percentage of all heroin comes from Afghanistan, the answer they would have got is 94%. Yeah, they would have been like, wait, what is this?

[Wells]

So then it takes. It takes a larger. It takes. It takes essentially a psyop in order to get men to fight for the interests of the people who are performing the psyop.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. You have to create a psyop that puts a narrative out there that makes it noble for us to be doing what we're doing.

[Wells]

Noble.

[Joe Rogan]

Noble.

[Wells]

Since we're such suckers. It's a noble cause. What's more noble than letting somebody live?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we're less suckers now than ever before. But, yes, a lot of us are suckers for these narratives.

[Wells]

Well, I'm. I'm. I'm a sucker for it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I am, too.

[Wells]

Everyone is.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you ever read that War is a Racket? Smedley.

[Wells]

Butler. Butler. Did you ever read it?

[Joe Rogan]

No. It's really good. It's not long. Yeah, it's really good. And it is essentially outlining what we're talking about. But it was in 1933, right? And Smedley Butler, who, when he went to all these places and did all these war. He thought that he was doing good. He thought he was protecting people, even though. But then at the end of his career when it all, like the fog of war had kind of faded and he recognized the patterns, like, oh, each time. Pull it up, Jamie, just so we can get a look.

[Wells]

Smedley, the one where there was a coup and they had asked him to.

[Joe Rogan]

They asked him to take. They asked him to overthrow the government.

[Wells]

There was States of America, a documentary I used to watch by Francis o', Connelly, I think is his name, but it's called Everything's a Rich Man's Trick. And he would always talk about Smedley D. Butler.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he was a bad man in a good way. But this. This thing that he wrote. So you get just. If you get. So go to the Wikipedia site, Wars Radical.

[Wells]

I mean, this is before even World War II.

[Joe Rogan]

There it is right there. It contains the summary. Make that a little larger, please.

[Wells]

Who makes the profits?

[Joe Rogan]

It says war is a racket. It always has been. It's possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It's the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to be to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it's all about. It's conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war, a few people make huge fortunes. Butler confessed that during his decades of service in the United States Marine Corps, I helped Mexico, especially Tampa, go safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. Where I've learned. Where have I heard of that name before? I don't know. I brought light to the. I brought light to the Dominic, Dominican Republic, for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I have given Al Capone. I might have given Al Capone a few hints. Kind of crazy.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because they've been doing that forever. And if it wasn't for this one guy writing about it, this one very decorated man who pull up the thing about the coup where they tried to enlist him, which is part of the reason why I'm sure he wrote this. Like he was like, what the fuck is this?

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Like you guys want. You guys want to take over the United States government force. Now imagine if they were successful. Imagine a military coup really did work in like 1930 or whatever it was how fucked we would be now. And being like, it's interesting how history pivots oftentimes like one or two crucial figures.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

And this guy saying no to this. Who knows what would have happened if he said yes.

[Wells]

Is that the premise of man in the High Castle? Philip K. Dick.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it?

[Wells]

I don't know. I should read more. Joe.

[Jamie]

Business plot is that we're talking.

[Joe Rogan]

About not the coup, the coup. We're talking about the coup.

[Jamie]

No, nothing in his Wikipedia says coup, but business plot. Plot comes up at the end.

[Joe Rogan]

What is the business plot?

[Jamie]

That's what I think he was talking about. This is all military, like the military industrial complex stuff before it started.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, but wasn't there a thing where they tried to enlist him to do something?

[Jamie]

I think, I mean this was after he was retired. He's gone on anti war lectures. It might have been his whole career here. And coup wasn't like a highlighted paragraph.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that Justin Wikipedia though? Can you just see if there's anything about online? Because it might not be something that Wikipedia would put in.

[Wells]

He had a whole bunch of nicknames.

[Joe Rogan]

Did he?

[Wells]

Did he see that whole list?

[Joe Rogan]

You kill a lot of folks, you get a lot of nicknames. Gee whiz, it's. It's so weird to see when you think about going, what's that, Jen?

[Jamie]

And business plot pops up.

[Wells]

People used to have fun nicknames.

[Joe Rogan]

So it was a business plot. So it's not necessarily like a military coup. Like what was the actual plot? The Wall street put political conspiracy in 1933 the United States to overthrow all this. It is overthrow the government of the president Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator. Butler, retired Marine Corps Major General, testified under oath that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans organization with him as its leader and use it as a coup d' etat to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on UN American Activity. On these revelations, although no one was prosecuted, the congressional. No one was prosecuted. You would think that that might put you in jail, you're trying to overthrow the fucking government.

[Wells]

These folks get away with it.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's kind of crazy. No one was prosecuted. Although no one was prosecuted. The congressional committee final report said there's no question these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient. You know, it's funny that no one was prosecuted, but if you did insider trading, you go straight to the pokey. Martha Stewart. No one was prosecuted for that. They put Martha Stewart in jail for lying to the cops.

[Wells]

But not. But there's actual, you know, there's Congress. Congress folks that do it all the time. They made an example out of the Martha Stewart, I suppose.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, there's. Nancy Pelosi is now estimated to be worth $400 million, you know, and that. She's just.

[Wells]

What a great job.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a great job.

[Wells]

What a great job to have. I should have gone into.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it makes you wonder. When you have $400 million and you're 82 years old, shouldn't you be, like, going on cruises and just like, enjoying your time off and why are you still working? What are you doing?

[Wells]

Lust for power?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I really care about.

[Wells]

These people are clinging with the, with their dying breath to every ounce of power.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, about the American people.

[Wells]

Who, who really genuinely believes that anybody cares about us.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, there's some lobotomized, no pun intended, suckers out there. There's some suckers out there. And then there's a lot of bots. There's a lot of people that aren't real. People that are like, commenting on both sides.

[Wells]

Like on the Internet.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, on both sides of it. Stay out of the comments, kids. Stay out of commentary, because it's not real. You're. If you're, you're interacting with narratives that are propped up, might be propped up by AI, might be propped up by bad state actors. There's a lot going on, folks, and it's, it's not all people talking about things and that should be illegal.

[Wells]

Are there bot wars now?

[Joe Rogan]

100. Yeah, yeah, 100%. There's my boss fighting against by.

[Wells]

Yeah, versus your bots.

[Joe Rogan]

100%. It's probably a giant chunk of the Internet.

[Wells]

Are they actual bots? Are they like people in a call center?

[Joe Rogan]

Both things. Like both things. Both things are real. There's AI for sure that people are running programs that are saying certain things and. But there's also people that get hired to do it. You know, there's some, these pro American sites, you know, and then people have done like an IP trace and they find out these people are in Karachi. They're fucking Pakistan. It's, you know, they're, they're in India, they're in China. It's like, like who knows who's doing it and why they're doing it. But there's a bunch of foreign countries that would have a vested interest in keeping America very unstable. It's really good to have us at each other's throats politically. That's good for them. It's good to crush our faith in democracy and make people consider communism. And it gets really weird when you have a bunch of people that are throwing a bunch of opinions into any sort of real important discussion about civilization and you realize like, oh my God, 80% of the people talking aren't just people.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They're either being hired to do this or it's AI or they're bots.

[Wells]

It seems to be like manufactured chaos in order to take the air out of the room, to suffocate information, also.

[Joe Rogan]

To make laws so they can clamp down on dissent. And yeah, the more, the more you can have chaos online, the more it becomes unmanageable, the more you have to manage it.

[Wells]

Right, right, right.

[Joe Rogan]

And the more people ask you to come in and save them. Please save us, save us from this. There should be laws. Hate speech. That shouldn't be legal.

[Wells]

That's kind of the idea behind like the like false flag, 100% gun. Gun.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Wells]

Like, I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's what got us into Vietnam, I think.

[Wells]

Like Vegas. Yeah, like the Mandalay Bay thing. Like there's a Vegas one behind.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a weird one. That's a weird one.

[Wells]

That one is gonna, that's gonna bother me forever. That. Because that one actually happened while I was awake and paying attention and it just. Nothing, nothing lines up with it.

[Joe Rogan]

You weren't there, were you? Were you in Vegas at the time?

[Wells]

No, no, no. I was sitting in Nashville. But I just met. I was, I was paying attention.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that was a crazy one. And there's multiple reports of more than one person shooting. And then there was like, how did he get 400 pounds of equipment into his room without anybody noticing it? Yeah, that seems crazy. Like you've got a rifle case is a very distinctive kind of case. Like, I'm assuming he's carrying like, you know, some kind of pelican box. So like something, some snap down box. Like, that's a pretty big box. Man, if you got a bunch of those and you're bringing them in along with boxes of ammunition, like, how much does that weigh? How strong are you?

[Wells]

How.

[Joe Rogan]

You know? Like, if you had to carry 400 pounds of. Into a hotel room, that would take a long time.

[Wells]

That dude wasn't doing all of it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I'm saying.

[Wells]

And I mean, didn't like the security guard witness. Go on, Ellen, to explain it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Did they?

[Wells]

Yes, he was. That is his name. Jesus. Yeah. Campos.

[Joe Rogan]

Jamie's all over this.

[Jamie]

I've been all over this from the jump. It's one of the ones I know a lot of.

[Joe Rogan]

Speak to us young Jamie.

[Jamie]

You haven't said anything wrong yet. But there's a really good website someone put together called, like, the Las Vegas shootingmap.com and they've got tracked little. It's a Google map, but there's like, little dots for YouTube videos, cell phone footage, 911 recordings, photos. It's a complete timeline from the, like, time before the concert started to, like, five days after.

[Joe Rogan]

What is the best theory about why that happened? Conspiracy or real. Was it conspiracy? Give me the juiciest one.

[Jamie]

Conspiracy that you read online, like, especially on a place like X.com would be that there was a. Let me try to word this right. I think they were worried about the Saudi family or whoever's in control in Saudi Arabia was worried about MBS taking over. And there was an event happening that he was in Vegas for, and they tried to use this chaos to take him out.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

Found out about it. And then this leads to this event happening the next month in November, where he got all these. All the families to come to Four Seasons. There was, like, kidnappings and extortions and all sorts of money. Like, he basically was pissed that he found out about it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that happened a month later.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

People have heard about that event happening, but tying it to the Las Vegas shooting, not a lot of people have done. I just read about that part recently.

[Joe Rogan]

Holy dude.

[Jamie]

But how. There's not a lot of proof of any of that happening. But that's the conspiracy.

[Wells]

I thought it was like, metal detectors in the casinos.

[Jamie]

I mean, that. That's part of. Part of it. People thought that they were trying to create an event so people would have to get body scanned in every casino because.

[Wells]

Because there were people in the state government that had stock in these. In these security systems.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, God, that's.

[Wells]

Emmy is diabolical.

[Joe Rogan]

God, I hope that's not true.

[Jamie]

But there was apparently, like, there's shells that were found in places that were outside of that hotel room.

[Joe Rogan]

Outside the hotel room? Yeah.

[Wells]

Or outside.

[Jamie]

Up away from those windows. Some people think that the second window was broken after the fact.

[Wells]

That one don't make no sense. That's just.

[Joe Rogan]

And he died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. Allegedly. Right.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So is the idea that he's a patsy.

[Jamie]

I guess that's. I mean if you're gonna follow that conspiracy. I just laid out that 100. You'd have to be. But again, there's not a ton of evidence for that one. There's some.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Wells]

Miss Mysteries.

[Joe Rogan]

What's the other theories?

[Wells]

Enigmas.

[Jamie]

Sort of what he was getting into where it's like there was this like tie in. Just get body scanners everywhere.

[Joe Rogan]

That one makes sense.

[Jamie]

The what? The funnest one. I'll show you a picture of. You know how there's like a playing deck of cards that's got like every conspiracy from like the last 20 years in it. There is that going around.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no.

[Jamie]

It's like the Twin towers are in one picture. And the one with Vegas. I'll show you. It's very Sam Tripley. Point this out to me later. I'll show you.

[Joe Rogan]

You ever get into the Oklahoma City bombing?

[Wells]

I. I'm familiar.

[Joe Rogan]

That one gets.

[Wells]

I'm familiar.

[Joe Rogan]

That one gets.

[Wells]

We got Ruby Ridge, Waco, Tim doing his thing, possibly with the team.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, those are all big. But the. What I'm getting at. What is this?

[Jamie]

This is the car, the playing deck, cards, the Vegas card. It's got this. It says that there's.

[Joe Rogan]

That a tattoo.

[Jamie]

This is Jason Aldean's tattoo. Who was the guy on stage when the shooting started? What just so happens to be. It's a jack and the ace. Now that's a coincidence. But that's a crazy coincidence. It's like how that could have been planned. Don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but that's his fucking name, bro. Jason Aldean. That's ridiculous. That's a crazy connection to make. His literal name is Jason Aldean. J. A. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a microphone and a jack and an ace. Yeah, that with the J and an A on it.

[Jamie]

Wild.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's silly. Yeah, that's silly. That one. That one needs to be. Shut up. That's.

[Wells]

That's outrageous.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but it's just when you think that someone might have done something like that, someone might do a mass shooting so they could take out one dude. Like blame it.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

On this guy. Like how Much planning has to be involved in that. And then, like, how do you get the patsy? You get this guy who's just like a. A degenerate gambler. That's what he was. Right. It was just a poker player. Right.

[Jamie]

Made a bunch of money playing video poker, which is, like, if you make that much money playing video poker, they're.

[Wells]

Not gonna let you keep playing real.

[Jamie]

Really, Dana Made money playing blackjack, and they're like, you can't play here anymore. Like, if you're good and you're making money, they say, we don't want you to do that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. They booted Dana, the Palms back in the day. That's what it was with the Palms, I think.

[Wells]

Well, like, I don't know. Okc Was that to destroy information? Is that the. Is that the conspiracy there? That. That, like, in the Oklahoma City bomb? There was. There was info in the building that they wanted, perhaps, because I know some of Bill Clinton's stuff maybe disappeared.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know the specifics on that, but what I was getting at was the specifics of the bomb itself, that a fertilizer bomb would not be able to do that kind of destruction. And that destruction was the way a bomb generally works. Like, it goes from. This is where the bomb detonates, and then all the energy goes outward.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

If you are parked right in front of a building, how does the building blow outward this way? And why were there all these reports of the FBI and bomb units pulling additional undetonated bombs from the building?

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, look at how the building blew out.

[Wells]

I know that's.

[Joe Rogan]

It's kind of crazy.

[Wells]

Absolute devastation.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, but it really depends entirely on the size of the bomb. Right. So if you have a bomb, like, see where that blue area is? That's where supposedly, I think, where the bomb went off. If you have an immense bomb that is right there and it just blows up and. And that's the force of it all around, like in a sort of conical effect. That kind of makes sense. But a lot of people think that the amount of power that you would generate from a fertilizer bomb is not really capable of doing that kind of damage. And Alex Jones, who was the first person that I ever heard talk about this.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He played all these news reports of them talking about finding additional bombs.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Like it was on the news. So they were talking about the. The FBI, or whoever it was, was.

[Wells]

The ATF in that building, I believe something like that. Maybe they would have had some information.

[Joe Rogan]

Changed some of the laws after that bombing.

[Wells]

It. Some explosives could have been in their possession even, or something.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that. Like, it blew up because of the other things? I mean, perhaps, but they didn't say that. And it's. It's pretty odd that the AT Would have just bombs laying around.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that doesn't really make any sense. Like, why do you guys have bombs in the break?

[Wells]

Well, they're studying.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we're studying actual live bombs. I don't think so. That doesn't make any sense. They're pretty good about taking care of bombs. But see if you can find anything about reports of additional bombs from Oklahoma City.

[Jamie]

They were looking for a second person for a while.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they were looking for a second person, too. But, I mean, there's also this problem with the fog of eyewitness accounts and everything. After a catastrophe, like, one thing that happens about events is no one, really. If you're there and some fucking thing blows up, it's entirely dependent upon your makeup whether or not you can even objectively recall exactly what happened. Depending upon, like, how freaked out you are by this and how used to being freaked out you are. Maybe you're a veteran, maybe you've served overseas, and, like, you can actually give an accurate account of this because you've been around crazy shit. But if you haven't, it's very likely that, you know, people are very confused afterwards.

[Wells]

I would have been totally shook.

[Joe Rogan]

No credible evidence of additional bombs being found. Initial confusion. This is AI over you. AI in the immediate aftermath of the AI by the way, that still thinks the COVID vaccine saved millions of lives. In the immediate aftermath of the bombing, some news reports and individuals speculated about multiple explosions. Okay, news reports. Why would they say that if there was no reason to say that Conflicting reports, some theories suggested a second, even third bomb were involved, citing nearby seismograph readings and witness accounts.

[Wells]

Seismograph.

[Joe Rogan]

So there was multiple seismograph readings. Experts, expert disagreement. Oh, I love when they call in the experts. However, experts including physician, physicists and engineers that are not named, stated that the second tremor, recorded by the size of grass, was likely caused by the buildings collapsed. Not another bomb. Go to sleep, America. Conspiracy theories. Some conspiracy theorists continue to promote the idea of additional bombs, even though there was news reports often citing discrepancies in the observed damage or expert opinions. Yeah, the observed damage is kind of crazy. The damage is kind of crazy. Yeah, it looks like it's blown out.

[Wells]

You know, That's a huge, huge demo job, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's just weird, you know, it's and It's his. Timothy McVeigh's reason for doing it. All of it is weird, right?

[Wells]

Like, wasn't it was revenge for the government's intervention with Ruby Ridge. Yeah, Waco.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right.

[Wells]

So he was going to take on.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, how that. Does extremist organizations get infiltrated by the government when they find some suckers?

[Wells]

Well, didn't they. Didn't they find like the folks who were gonna kidnap the governor or something? It was just like, wasn't it all the gov.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. 12 out of 14 people.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Were government agents.

[Wells]

So then.

[Joe Rogan]

And then those two guys went to jail. So the two. The two that weren't. Yeah, exactly. And the two that weren't. It wasn't even their idea. They were like dorks that were larping, right? Yeah, man, we're gonna blow up the government. They're losers. They wanted friends, you know, they wanted friends and they found friends in these extremists. And they thought that these guys, you know, they fucking meet up, talk about kidnapping the governor. Like they thought it was all bullshit. Those guys literally said they thought we were never going to do this.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then the feds come knocking on their door. One of the wildest ones, they radicalized this young guy who was 19 years old, I believe it was in Dallas. They radicalized him, and then they gave him a bomb that was fake and then gave him a cell phone to detonate the bomb. And then when he tried to use the cell phone to detonate the bomb, they arrested him. Because even though it was fake, even though it didn't work, even though they gave it to him, even though they talked him into doing it, they arrested him for terrorism because he was willing to listen to them, which is crazy.

[Wells]

Why do you do that?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, also you're doing it to a young guy who probably like, this is the first time in his life he felt like he had any purpose. Like you've mind fucked him into believing that he's doing this for a greater good. You know, you're. You're mind fucking him to telling him that, like, you know, he's gonna put a dent in the great Satan by detonating this bomb. And you're gonna go down in history. You're gonna be huge. And. And he's just a dumb guy. Just a dumb dude who they talk into it and then they arrest him. Like we stop terrorism. You fucking made it.

[Wells]

Yeah, you made it. And then the problem. Fix the problem. It's kind of like the pharmaceutical industry or something.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, It's a pattern. Yeah, it's a pattern, but it's just a weird one that we. That we tolerate under the rule of law. Like, that seems pretty crazy that you guys made a plot to kidnap the governor. You got 12. 12 out of 14 of the people who are involved were working with the government. And then, you know, it should be like, okay, whose idea was it? It was Mike's idea. He was the first one to say, mike, you work for the government. This is crazy. Mike, you can't arrest Tom because it was your idea. Mike, you fucking asshole. But yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was working for the government. I mean, I was like, I'm fine, right? And then he gets. They all get. Just disappear. Nobody hears them. Nobody knows their name. Nobody knows who they are. They're probably doing it right now.

[Wells]

They go into the private sector. They're with. I don't know who.

[Joe Rogan]

Who knows?

[Wells]

Over with.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, who knows who's in there to do. Sure. Who knows who was instructing them to do what they were doing in the first place? Like, why did you guys decide that you're going to kidnap the governor? Is there higher ups that told you this is a good idea to plot this? Like, what are we trying to do?

[Wells]

I just wonder how much within those. Within even these buildings? Like, what's the communication like in a huge organization like the FBI or something? Are there. Are there people over on floor two that have no idea what's going on on floor four?

[Joe Rogan]

100%, you know, 100%. And, yeah, 100%.

[Wells]

Just pockets, pockets of intelligence. Little microcosms of people working, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, talking to people that actually work in the government. They'll tell you there are people that are in charge of each individual office, and they're like a czar of this office. You got to get through them. And they could put the kibosh on anything you're trying to do. And they're hiding information from the rest of the office. Hiding information from other agencies.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

When I was a kid, I dated this girl who worked for the government, and one of her jobs was. This was like, really the very beginning of computers. So 91. Maybe somewhere around then, maybe 2, maybe 92. And her job was to help distribute information. Say if the Navy did a study, that the army would have access to it, you know, so it was all on a database. Okay, so this was, like, really, really early on.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Because they didn't share information with each other.

[Wells]

They still don't share information.

[Joe Rogan]

No. They're in competition with each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of them don't like each other. Yeah, there's agencies that don't let those fucking pussies over at the CIA and those faggots over at the FBI. Like, there's like a lot of that stupid shit that goes on. There's a lot of that stupid shit that goes on. Just like there's people that root for the fucking dolphins and other people root for the Raiders. People get tribal. People get really weird, man. They get tribal with every damn thing that they do. Every damn thing that they do. And then it's us against them. And you know, we're. Xerox is going to take over the copying world. Fuck all those other.

[Wells]

It's like as above, so below, man. The part, the. The patterns. The patterns go down forever.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, we have the patterns of territorial apes. That's the problem. We have the. The consistent patterns of territorial apes. And those patterns find their way into everything. Yeah, they find their way into poetry slams.

[Wells]

I mean, it's. It's that music. Music's like that.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, for sure, right.

[Wells]

Yeah. Comedy's like that.

[Joe Rogan]

It is to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. And in some certain circles it is. In certain circles it's not. But it's. It's like that with everything. Everyone is fighting for dominance.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's a really gross weird way. And I think it's just our genetics. I think it's our. The pattern of how we got here for the first place and how the human reward systems were all set up.

[Wells]

Up.

[Joe Rogan]

They're set up to try to conquer things. And you know, whether you're conquering video game development or you're making the. The best folding phone, it's like we're gonna kick ass over Google. You know, everybody has their own little thing, their little realm they're trying to conquer.

[Wells]

Right. And it feels great.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I don't think it does.

[Wells]

You don't think it feels great to kick ass at something? Well, I mean, you want, like. I think certain.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, certainly does.

[Wells]

The pursuit of excellence is like the most joy rendering thing that there is.

[Joe Rogan]

That aspect of it. But you know, the aspect of crushing your enemies. I wonder how much.

[Wells]

Well, you don't have to have like. I don't. This is. The thing is like playing guitar or something. I don't have an enemy.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're an artist. You're not a corporation.

[Wells]

I just. I'm a corporation.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you an LLC yet? Did you sign up for the Devil's Deal? Limited liability corporation. A lot of people do.

[Wells]

So I. I Don't have a record deal.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what you're saying?

[Wells]

No, no, no, no.

[Joe Rogan]

When you start making money, they tell you to form an llc.

[Wells]

What is it gonna do?

[Joe Rogan]

It's like you become like a little corporation. And that way you pay yourself from the corporation. You can lease a car from the corporation.

[Wells]

That'd be kind of cool.

[Joe Rogan]

You probably have to do that someday. Eventually I'll be in a corporate. Maybe after this podcast you'll have to do that. Call it Bottomless Wells.

[Wells]

That's the most fun. And it does seem like it is. What? Anytime you're. You're in a hard place or anything like that, mentally or. Yeah, like the. The best way out is like, find something to try to get good at or try some, you know, and then try your best at it. Yeah, get in. It just seems innate.

[Joe Rogan]

I think so.

[Wells]

Like, I think no matter what it.

[Joe Rogan]

Is, Right, but the problem is, if that thing is making money, then it gets weird, right? Like, if you're. If your whole thing you're good at and you try to get better at is just making money, that's. That's when things get squirrely. Because the same thing that makes you really good at writing songs could make another person look really good at being a psychopath. Because the best way to make money is to be completely feelingless and did not give a shit about who this is going to impact. You know, ship all those jobs overseas. Look how much money we're gonna make. Do this to that. Fuck all the. Listen, if we don't take care of this environmental pollutant and we just, like, let it leak out, we save X amount of money.

[Wells]

Do that, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Then that's. That's where things get weird. You figure out the best way to make money. Like, you're really good at making money, and that becomes your creativity. You get really creative moving around the law in order to make money. Get really creative about how you establish relationships with people, how you can, you know, make sure that laws are passed that favor what you're doing.

[Wells]

And that's a strange art.

[Joe Rogan]

Very weird art. That's a dark art.

[Wells]

That is. That is the dark art.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a dark art.

[Wells]

Snape never taught about that one, dog.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's not a creative art, but it is creative in some ways. It taps into that same thing, but in a very negative way. You know, maybe positive for that person's bank account, but negative in terms of its impact.

[Wells]

But do they even care about their bank account at that? Like, what is it to them? It's something totally different.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the world they live in, man. Like, if you're a fucking prison warden, the world you live in is like, these are the rules. In order to be. To stay alive as a prison warden, this is what you're gonna do. If you're a prison guard, if you're on the floor with all these inmates, this is what you do to stay alive. This is what you do to maintain order. This is what you do to make sure people listen and fall in like that. Once you're there, that's. You have to do that, right? Like, if you're there, if you're up. If you're a prison guard, this is what you do. And I think if you are a guy who is in charge of, like, you're an economic hitman, like John Perkins, you know that? You ever read that book? What they do is they would give enormous loans to countries that definitely couldn't fucking pay it off. And then, you know, come in and start extracting resources. Yeah, yeah. I mean, China does that. The United States does that. Many countries have been involved in that kind of shit, and they're creative in that way.

[Wells]

Are there NGOs doing that?

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure.

[Wells]

Like, is that what.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure.

[Wells]

Is that what, oh, Billy. Billy G's up to, or.

[Joe Rogan]

Billy G. Yeah.

[Wells]

Microsoft.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh.

[Wells]

Like.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's involved in a lot of the.

[Wells]

Do you give a big loan or, you know, give a big favor out and then take. And then just take whatever you want from them after that? Because everyone's. Everyone's got notes once they.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, it's called philanthro capitalism, you know, and that being a philanthropist is actually very profitable, which is weird. No, I, like, Bill Gates made hundreds of millions of dollars off of the pandemic.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

From. Just from vaccines, dude.

[Wells]

Philanthropy. As far as out. I have a song about philanthropy.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you?

[Wells]

It's called Philanthropist.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's hear it. Put it on there. Put up. Jamie will find it. You know, like, real, true philanthropy. When you're, you know, you're giving money away because you're just a kind person. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. You know, I like it when it's done silently.

[Wells]

That's the only way to properly do it. Right. When I was just a boy, my mama asked me this. She said, son, what you want to be? I said, a big philanthropist with date as my oil and illness is my business, with guns is my retirement and war as my mistress. I'm going to be an oligarch with A whole bunch of rockets I can them two sides fighting and I'd empty both of their pockets? And if I got bored hard money weary I'd try my hand in dabbling in social engineering I'm gonna be a billionaire with a big foundation? We used to rule in shadows but I'd come right out and I'd rule the nation? I'm gonna do all my own laundry in a third world nation state Experiment with the locals like some philanthropic saint? And I never make a cure, not get you a treatment plan you can die in slow installments and I'll bleed you while I can? And I travel around the planet and a big old mystery jet What I did would be my business and what you did I would collect? If I was a philanthropic fist just run around, feel anthropistine. Not a whole lot of help just for myself, but I got to make it look convincing.

[Joe Rogan]

You nailed it. That's. That's philanthro capitalism right there in a song.

[Wells]

It's far out.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a great song.

[Wells]

It shouldn't be. It should. It shouldn't be allowed.

[Joe Rogan]

It shouldn't be allowed. Well, it shouldn't be that easy to trick people.

[Wells]

Who believes it. That's why I'm just. I'm like, who. Who in the hell would a lot think that this is. Good things happen because of it, but more bad things happen than good a lot of the time. And you're holding an entire nation hostage or an entire group of people hostage by lending them money.

[Joe Rogan]

Mm.

[Wells]

Well, that's not freedom.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Wells]

You gotta be free.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's. It's real weird because there's certain people that are like, genuine philanthropists, but even them, when you're donating money to specific organizations and you find out that most of their money goes to overhead.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Most of their money goes to employee salaries, which are ridiculously high. And you go, oh, this is a scam. This is clearly a scam. You aren't. You aren't kind people trying to fix the world. You're profiting off of this idea of being a kind person that wants to fix the world. And you're doing a little bit of help. You're doing about 10% of help, maybe 20% of help, maybe even 30 for a good organization. But the reality is, it's about you.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is crazy. You know, imagine if just you said, hey, man, my friend's sick. Do you think you could donate some money to my friend? You know, because he doesn't have any health insurance, and we were like, yeah, man, what do we got to do? And then everybody gives you money, and then you take 70% of it, and we go, hey, dude, what the fuck? And you, like, you're like, hey, man, I worked to get that money for him. Yeah, I had to call you guys. I really. I put in the time. I need some of that money. I need 70% of that money. You'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Your friends would never talk to you again. Everybody would hate you. But meanwhile, if you do this for an ngo, you get celebrated, right?

[Wells]

Insane.

[Joe Rogan]

It's real. It is insane, and it's real. The weirdest thing about it is this isn't a conspiracy theory. This is real. This is really how most of them operate. Some of it's 90%, some of it's 90. 10.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's good ones out there, though. There's really good ones where most of the money goes to the charity, and that's awesome. There's real people out there that are really kind people, that are genuine philanthropists, and most of them live very humble lives.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Because that's. You don't make a million dollars a year if you're doing it right. You just don't, you know? You just don't. And if you are making a million dollars a year, chances are you might be a vampire.

[Wells]

Yeah. I mean, that guy was all over the. All over the flight logs and everything.

[Joe Rogan]

Which guy was. Which guy?

[Wells]

Gates.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wells]

All. All tangled up and all sorts of stuff, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he was tangled up in all sorts of stuff after that guy went to jail. After he went to jail and came out the first time.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Gates was hanging with him still.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

As were many people. It's real weird stuff, man. It's real weird because it seems that it's like. Like once you develop a network of people that trust a person like that and, like, come. Come hang out with him, he's cool, you know, It's a good place to go and get your freak on. Like, because if you're a really rich, like, international businessman and everybody knows who you are, like a Bill Gates type character, you can't just go get some head. Like, what do you do? How do you. How do you. How do you go get your. On, you know?

[Wells]

What do you do? Is that what the. Is that what Jeff was.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know.

[Wells]

Was he the fixer in that?

[Joe Rogan]

I would just be speculating. I would just be speculating. But a good friend of mine who's very intelligent said this to Me said there's people that want certain experiences, and there's people that provide these powerful people with experiences. And that's how they fit into the social structure. They're there to help. They keep their mouth shut, and they help people get these experiences.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And then there's probably some sort of a wild rush of being naughty and doing things you're not supposed to be doing. We can get away with it because we're worth 80, $100 billion or whatever the fuck they're worth.

[Wells]

They're trying very hard to get away with this one. I don't know if the people are going to forget.

[Joe Rogan]

Just people are never gonna forget. The problem is, do we have any power? What do we do? You know, what do you do? I mean, you definitely can change the way you vote, like, if it comes up again. But the problem is this is a bipartisan issue.

[Wells]

Bipartisan. It's. I. I don't know. I heard as a. As a Democratic hoax. That's.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I don't think that's true, but. Well, it's certainly not a hoax if you go to jail. Certainly not a hoax if Glenn Maxwell's in jail, too. So, like, she's in jail for sex trafficking. Excuse me? She's in jail for sex trafficking. But the question is, to who? Who? You have to be sex trafficking to someone. Somebody in order to go to jail, right?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So who. How's that work? How? She's been in jail for years, so, like, how's that work?

[Wells]

Is she looking at a pardon? Are they gonna.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. But they just moved her to another prison.

[Wells]

They moved.

[Joe Rogan]

It's supposed to be a nice prison. As far as prisons, they move her to.

[Wells]

To kill her.

[Joe Rogan]

Could be, but I would. Why would you waste the money to move someone if you wanted to kill them? I'm sure they could kill her pretty easy. I don't know, you know, but the question is, does she have dead woman switches? You know what I mean?

[Wells]

What's.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, the dead man switches, like when Tripwire. Yeah. Like, if I die, I want you to do this for me. And then whether it's in Israel, whether it's in Canada, whoever the fuck the person is that you have that you give this information to, you just say, if anything happens to me, let this loose. And then you tell them, like, look, I have this, that, this and that. I have all these tapes, I have all these videos, and if anything happens to me, all this goes online, so leave me alone.

[Wells]

If that were true, that's a real.

[Joe Rogan]

Thing that people do, it's called a dead man switch.

[Wells]

Dead man switch?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's how people maintain life. If you have information that's really sensitive, they have to trust you. If someone trusts you to not tell something that can ruin their empire of hundreds of billions of dollars and put them in jail, possibly. They have to trust you. They're not going to trust you. They don't trust you. But if they know that you know that if you tell, they'll kill you. And then they know that if they kill you, you have the dead man switch. Okay, we got a stalemate. Let that live.

[Wells]

This is mutually assured destruction.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Wells]

Some kind of nuclear standoff.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they're pointing missiles at each other. Missile information missiles at each other. It's dark, dude, but it makes for a good spy novel. If Just America, the way it actually really works, would be a crazy novel, you'd be like, this is nuts.

[Wells]

I get Tom Wolf. There's something or another.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Just with the. If you actually knew the actual facts, I bet it'd be quite fascinating. You know, like we have these narratives that we assume are real about even about history. And I bet a lot of them are full of shit too. You know, Bill Murray was on the podcast, it's really interesting. And he read Bob Woodward's story about his good friend John Belushi.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

So he said, I read five pages of it. I was like, oh my God, they framed Nixon.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't that crazy?

[Wells]

Well, I mean, it isn't. Bob Woodward, he's known to have been hired or at least worked with CIA.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was an intelligence agent.

[Wells]

Yeah. He's intelligent and he first job builds the narratives.

[Joe Rogan]

It was also his first job as a journalist.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is how. How did a senior journalist not get that job? You're literally going to take down a president.

[Wells]

I didn't see that aspect of it in all the President's Men. Who was that? Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

Yeah. You don't get that. You don't get that because that was.

[Joe Rogan]

Before the Internet and like they could get away with a movie like that.

[Wells]

I kind of wonder if they. Listen, I'm sure this actually I don't know anything about. Do you know Tom Hanks?

[Joe Rogan]

Tom Hanks, the actor?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I don't know him personally.

[Wells]

Okay. I just wonder if every. Every once in a while, when the government needs to explain something to the public in a way that puts us in the best light, if they commission a movie through Hollywood and stick Tom Hanks in it, man, he's just explained so much to us over the years with Charlie Wilson's War. It's like, here's how the Saving Private. That's how this goes. You know, Forrest Gump is kind of a nostalgia fest about the Vietnam War. Kind of makes light of it. You know, the Polar Express. I actually don't know about the Polar Express animated movie.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, my friend Sam was telling me. My friend Sam Tripoli was telling me that, and I had heard this, that During World War I, they had a problem that soldiers were not shooting at the enemy. They didn't want to kill them. They didn't want to be there. And so they were firing their guns, but not even aiming them at the enemy.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

So to combat this, they started making movies. And then in the movies, these war movies, the soldiers would shoot the enemy and they were like, really heroes. And so then In World War II, people were much more willing to shoot the enemy. Gee, isn't that crazy? Yeah, like, so the intelligence communities have been deeply involved in movie making from the very beginning. Because back then, movies were the most powerful narrative in all of society.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And there was no counter narrative. Not. Not to speak of nothing that went global. Nothing went global or even that was like publicly mass distributed. There was nothing. You mean, you might have people in coffee shops saying, hey, man, I read this and this and that, but there were small groups of people. Most people were in the dark.

[Wells]

Even if you had a counter narrative, you'd be like Pete Seeger and get like, blacklisted in the 50s, you know, a musician.

[Joe Rogan]

You'd be Smedley Butler.

[Wells]

Right. Who was in a.

[Joe Rogan]

The end of his career.

[Wells]

Yeah, It's. It's a wonder he survived. His own. His own tell. All there with war as a racket.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

So it is. It didn't seem to do a whole lot. Whatever. World War II is just, you know, six years after.

[Joe Rogan]

I know, Crazy. Isn't it crazy, though, that they made movies about war to encourage people to just shoot the enemy when they see them? Because most people, it's probably so abstract to them. Like, they're from. Like. Especially if they had just gotten there from Europe. Right. So imagine if you're dealing with World War I. Like, a lot of those people probably recently arrived in America. Right. And then now you're being sent over to France, now you're being sent over to Germany. Like, you're involved in a fucking war. Now you're in a trench war.

[Wells]

Well, I don't. America was pretty. Was really not wanting to get in with World War I anyway.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

Was it the Lusitania? Some folks think that even might have been a, you know, false.

[Joe Rogan]

Do they think that was a false flag? It could have been. Well, I mean, that's a long. There's a long history of false flag that got us into war. I mean, it goes back to Nero burning Rome, you know, and what they did with the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

[Wells]

Is what happened with Nero.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's go pull that up. Nero was so crazy, dude. You know, one of the things Nero did.

[Wells]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

He beat his pregnant wife to death. And then he found a slave that looked like his wife, a boy, castrated him and said, this is my wife, and paraded this person around. Sporus. Is his name French? Yeah. And just fuck this poor dude with no dick that he had his dick cut off and then passed that guy off to someone else. And that guy eventually wound up committing suicide. Yeah, yeah. Nero was a complete, total psychopath. So there was this one false flag incident. See if you could find what Nero did. You know, that was also like Hitler. Hitler burned the Reichstag. That was a false flag too. The Gulf of Tonkin 1 was a crazy one because that was. What was that? 67, 68 or something like that.

[Wells]

So we had already been in Vietnam for years at that point.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, that was the. They had some limited operations.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

But it wasn't like we're as full scale soldiers invading Vietnam. Right.

[Wells]

Is it. Is this precursor to like Tet Offensive or something?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. But this was the incident that dragged us in. Burning Rome, burning Christians. Year 64, during the Principate of Nero. The night between July 18th and 19th, a fire broke out in Rome within nine days, destroyed or badly damaged substantial part of the city, leaving many dead or homeless. Rumors circulated the fire had been set by Nero, who, it was claimed, sought to divert blame from himself by holding responsible a new sect of aggressively proselytizing Jews known as Christians. Wow. Most recent scholarship has rejected the popular view of Nero as an arsonist who fiddled while Rome burned. Largely ignored, however, has been the question of whether the Christians, generally regarded as innocent scapegoats of Nero, might in fact played have played some role in the fire. There's controversy, yeah. The chapter considers the problematic nature of Christianity and Rome and Roman attitudes towards Christians in the first century ce and suggests, based on this evidence, that Christian involvement is not out of the question. Not out of the question. But the narrative has always been that Nero did it to divert attention. Yeah, but the point is, it's like, look, they tried to do that with Operation Northwoods. It's one of the things that Kennedy vetoed. The Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on an operation to do a false flag event where they were going to blow up a drone jetliner, blame it on Cuba, and they were going to arm Cuban friendlies and attack Guantanamo Bay. And they were doing this so that they drag us into a war with Cuba. And Kennedy vetoed it. But it was signed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff right there. Like, sounds good, right? They're fucking smoking.

[Wells]

I mean, is this. What. Is this what the Bay of. What the Bay of Pigs is?

[Joe Rogan]

No, the Bay of Pigs is a different thing. The Bay of Pigs is after that. And the Bay of Pigs. The problem with the Bay of Pigs was that they planned it without Kennedy knowing.

[Wells]

The men were already there.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And then they had air support, and that was part of their mission. And then Kennedy denied air support, and then the men on the ground got slaughtered.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And so they. My friend Evan, who was a ranger, he believes it's very possible that some of the people involved in that might have been involved in the assassination of Kennedy because they had a huge grudge and these were, you know, hardened assassins.

[Wells]

Yeah. If that's something that you'd go and mine.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

People out of that operation.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there was a lot of people that hated Kennedy after that.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of people. We don't think about it now because we think of Kennedy as, like, being loved, but there's people that celebrated when he got murdered.

[Wells]

Gee.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

That I can't imagine.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like today, like, if Trump got murdered, there's people that would celebrate, you know, or if Kamala Harris had gotten murdered on the campaign trail. There's people that would celebrate. There's gross people on both sides of the aisle is.

[Wells]

I mean, it's a sign that something's not good when we're celebrating just death. No, I feel, you know, I feel like.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's certainly a society that's lost its way. If that's the only solution is to kill people, you know, or if you don't like how the results turned out, you do everything you can to destroy that person. Which I think the most interesting version of that is happening right now in New York City. That Mandani guy who's essentially like, at the very least, a socialist, but kind of leans towards a communist direction.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Both sides are trying to get rid of that guy. They're like, we can't allow him to be mayor.

[Wells]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

But the people elected him. He won the Democratic primary, and he's like 44% ahead of everybody else in the process.

[Wells]

So there's still. Sorry, you gotta kinda fill me in.

[Joe Rogan]

So the actual election is not until November, right? So they have the primary first. Mondani won, and he won over Andrew Cuomo, who used to be the governor of the state. And everybody thought he was gonna win, right? And then people like, holy shit, this communist guy is gonna be the fucking mayor of New York City. And he's promising to jack up taxes and he's promising to have like city funded grocery stores and a lot of communist ideas. So both the right and the left are like, we gotta get this guy out of here.

[Wells]

Okay?

[Joe Rogan]

There's no way. But it's like if you believe in the democratic process, like this is what the people wanted, right? Let's find out if it works. So then let's find out if it sucks, if it makes New York City even worse. Well, then in a few years, you get to vote again.

[Wells]

Yeah. I was gonna say, how long is the. How long is mayorship?

[Joe Rogan]

I think it's four years.

[Wells]

Four years, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it a four year term for mayor of New York City? It has to be, right? Because in two years, you're basically just using the time to campaign for your reelection. Because he'd probably, by the time he got in there, it's like 24 months later, you got to do it again.

[Wells]

Right? You like, so that. What are the. What are the two sides doing to. To bring him down?

[Joe Rogan]

Talk about getting him out of the country. There's people that are talking about, is there a way to. To expel him from the country, to revoke his citizenship? Yeah, there's. There's talk of that.

[Wells]

Huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. People are trying to figure out any way to get rid of this guy.

[Wells]

But he is a citizen.

[Joe Rogan]

Of course. But he wasn't born in America, which freaks people out. He's a Muslim. He's from Uganda. That's where he's from. He's only been in America for a certain amount of years, and he's only been a citizen, I think, for seven or eight years, something like that. And he won. You know, like, if you believe in this thing, like that's what people voted for and you got to do better.

[Wells]

That's the, that's what the folks want. Is. That's what, what the folks want.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Well, the thing is, there's a lot of people that live in New York City that live in, you know, any city really, that don't feel like their needs are being met by the government.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And they don't feel like the government has their best interests. And if some guy comes along with some radical ideas that he says are the solution, well, if the people believe him and it's not true, you've done a terrible job. You've done a terrible job of both distributing information and taking care of these people because they're looking for any kind of a solution.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Even a solution that might wind up causing a bunch of corporations to leave the city and a bunch of money to leave the city and a bunch of jobs to leave the city.

[Wells]

Yeah. Things are desperate, right? What the politicians really controlled by, like, like three main things, like special interests, donor class, and multinational corporations. So anybody who looks like they're disentangled from any of those things is looking pretty appealing.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly, exactly. That's why he's way ahead. He's ahead by 44%. Everybody else has like 12%, 20%. I think that. I think the highest one, other than him and the most recent polling, was Cuomo, who's still running. Somehow or another, I don't know how he's doing it. It's like. Like, is he an independent? Like, how is Cuomo running? Is that what it is? Yeah. So he's running as an independent because he couldn't win the Democratic primary.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But he's still way behind this guy.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

According to polls. The problem with polls is, of course, who the fuck answers polls? Not you.

[Wells]

No, not me. I think polls are just made so that news people have something to talk about. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if they're the ones. Well, they probably are. They probably go to the poll center and they say, run this poll because I gotta. I gotta have something to talk about on Wednesday.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's. You could rig them, right? So you could rig them, like, say if you went to a specific group of people that you knew, leaned right, and you started asking them questions on things, or a specific group of people, specific part of the city that you knew is more progressive. You would go there if you wanted to rig polls. And then you push that narrative out. This is how the people feel. It's like, okay, but who's answering? A very small percentage. And mostly dopes. Mostly dopes are answering polls. Sorry. If you answer polls, but most of the people have nothing else to do, because if you call me, I never.

[Wells]

Met anybody who's answered a poll.

[Joe Rogan]

Bingo.

[Wells]

I met a lot of folks. You met a lot of folks?

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Wells]

You ever met anyone who answered A poll?

[Joe Rogan]

No. And the presidential polls are the weird ones because sometimes they're wildly wrong. And yet somebody got paid to make those polls.

[Wells]

I think it's the new. I think it's the news. I think the news is an incredibly lucrative business. It's an entertainment business. There's not news every day. There's. There's nothing just. And they gotta run 24 hours. Yeah, they're making up. They're making up new. They should call it. They should call it the old because it's always the same shit happening, man. Like, it's not even. Yeah, it doesn't matter where you, where you're getting it either. It's.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also a lot. I mean, CNN tried to separate themselves from that when they realized it was like, financially kind of devastating to the company to have, like, really bad editorial comments, which is what they did. So they got rid of all their head newscasters, okay? Because everybody was terrible and everybody hated them. So they just got rid of most of them. And they tried to go objective with the news. But the problem is, like, that way people aren't outraged. And the only way people are going to pay attention now because you spoiled them, you gave them candy, and now you can't give them filet mignon. Like, this is bullshit. I want Cheetos, I want snacks.

[Wells]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, you've, you ruined them. And you gave them this for decades. And so now if you want your ratings, you have to give them outrage. You have to have a bunch of people yelling at each other on TV so they pay attention.

[Wells]

That. And like, the. I feel like the most, like, colorful people that they would have had on their things have gone indie now. You know, like, like Tucker Carlson has his, his podcast. And like, let's see, Candace Owens was with, like, Daily Wire, and now she's like, got, she's got her own big thing. And there's, and then there's smaller. There's smaller ones. You got like, break Breaking Points is one.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, the real problem is the left ones never succeed once they're fired. The people that leave cnn, they're always, like, dismissed.

[Wells]

Well, the talent, I mean, we have to be talented to do, to do that, to sit there and look at a camera and just talk for, like, hours about, you gotta be really talented.

[Joe Rogan]

So you gotta be really dedicated. And you have to, you have to understand how people are receiving what you're saying too. And the problem with, like, a CNN type job is that you're being told what to do. You show up, you read the news as written by these people, you have a teleprompter. You really can't stray very far from the narrative, and you're allowed to elaborate inside the narrative as long as it fits with what CNN is trying to promote. And as soon as you deviate from that, you're cooked. You're gone.

[Wells]

Yeah. So the, so then there's really no crew. There's. There's not much career for you.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Because once you leave, everybody knows you're a propagandist. Like, no one's ever gonna really truly believe.

[Wells]

You weren't coming up with anything yourself. It was all fed to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Wells]

Drone.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. And then we also watched as you did elaborate on your own about whatever you thought about the narrative. You're a dope. You're a dope that's only on television because they put you there. You're not, you're not. Like, you didn't rise through the ranks. Like, this is one of the most interesting people I've ever heard talk television. Like, no, there's not. This is not that at all. You're not sincere. You're, you're, you know, we. What people like is authenticity. You know, you want to know that someone is actually telling you what they think, and you don't get any of that from them. As soon as you don't get that from people, you never want to listen. Whether you believe Tucker Carlson or not, he's being authentic. Like, what he's saying, he, he believes.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

This is who he is. And that's why he works. That's why it works outside of, of.

[Wells]

Fox News, when he left, that's what those folks, all these folks who do. I think even Bill O'Reilly, after he got like, kicked out, you know, from broadcast, he has, he's got his podcasts and stuff. If they, they really believe their stuff, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Whether they're right or wrong.

[Wells]

Yeah. Well, it's not about that. I feel like the public has to understand that at the end of the day, this, this, these guys are. Whether they believe it or not, this is entertainment. These guys are entertainers. Like, this isn't the new. They're telling you stuff, they're feeding it to you. And you gotta take things with a big ass grain of salt because this stuff is, these are entertainers.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's definitely that aspect of it. And if you're not entertaining, you're gonna get removed from your job and you're gonna get replaced by someone who's better at your job.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Or hotter, you know, someone who's got a nice, a nice rack and a short skirt and who's really good at talking like, wow, I really just want to watch her talk.

[Wells]

That's. I guess that's for the cable folks or something.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I mean, that's part of the gig, right? Like how many of those ladies on Fox News just look hot as the sun while they're telling you whatever the they're supposed to be telling you? Yeah, yeah. It's a special kind of hot too. That, like ice queen hot. That's a, that Republican like hard nosed hot.

[Wells]

I don't get it.

[Joe Rogan]

Special kind of hot.

[Wells]

I don't get it, man. I don't. You. That's the, that's the cheapest, that's the cheapest thing they can pull over on the, on the patience is to have, is to have sex appeal.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but they've always got. I mean, that's how they sell cars. That's how they sell everything. People use that for everything because we're dumb.

[Wells]

I'm optimistic, man. I think we're gonna wake up, we're gonna say, I don't care. I don't care what the hot lady on Fox says. They're murdering people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I'm optimistic too, and I think you're right. I think we are doing that right now. I think, believe it or not, your songs are a part of that. That it's, you know, whatever percentage you, you reach, that's. It's not zero. There's. There's people that you reach like that. United Health. How many views did that get all told?

[Wells]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Has to be millions.

[Wells]

It got a lot of looks.

[Joe Rogan]

Millions and millions and millions. I know. I sent it to a lot of people.

[Wells]

Think these, the tunes get. They get passed around. Some of them get passed around.

[Joe Rogan]

Did I repost that? I reposted it, right?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Okay. If I repost it, I can find out how many people just saw the one that I reposted.

[Wells]

Be. It'll be a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

It resonates, man. It's like people are.

[Wells]

How long ago was when you shared the list? That one blew up too.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that was a good one too. How long ago was that? The United Health one?

[Wells]

That was in December.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it, Jimmy?

[Jamie]

You posted it eight months ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Eight months ago. This is going to take a while because I'm a Chatty cathy.

[Jamie]

I posted December 15, 2024.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's not that long ago. Okay, so here's Federman. That's around that time. Let me find it. There ain't no, you. Come on. Where are you?

[Wells]

There's no shortage of stuff to make. To make tunes on.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you decide what to make tunes on? Do you just sit and. And when something, like, resonates with you.

[Wells]

And p. What, something? Yeah, when. When something is like, you know, gee, gee, I got. I got something I could say about that. Then that's. That's when you. That's when you do. I can't find you a tube, but.

[Joe Rogan]

I know it's on here. How would I. How would I search for it?

[Jamie]

I don't think you can because you're trying to see the views you.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, found it. Here we go. Sorry. Okay. View insights 6,742,803 views. The watch time is 3 years, 104 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 8 seconds.

[Wells]

Luke's got too much time on their hands.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a lot of people on the toilet right now, bro. They need something to listen to. You ever go to the toilet without your phone? It's weird. Just sit there like, wow, I'm alone.

[Wells]

Spacewalk without oxygen.

[Joe Rogan]

No one knows how to do it anymore. Yeah, It's.

[Wells]

Read the Dr. Bronner's bottle.

[Joe Rogan]

But the thing is, like, that the 6 million plus people that heard that, like, that. That affects the narrative. And then, you know, the list, one that affects the narrative and this one that you did on philanthropy, that affects the narrative is there's. Everyone's, like, throwing their coins into this big pile and trying to figure this out. And more so now than I think has ever happened at any time in human history. There's more discussion. It's just we're so upset that it's not fixed and it's on its way in the right direction. I think it's just not satisfying, the pace in which progress is happening.

[Wells]

Everybody can get on now, too. I mean, like, that's. It's just like I prop up my iPhone and, like, play a tune.

[Joe Rogan]

Mm.

[Wells]

Everyone can just like, get.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Wells]

Phone in front of their face and, like, get it out there, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyone can now, which is great. I mean, this allows guys like you to just. Just all of a sudden have a following, you know, all you have to do is have some talent. Some talent, some creativity, some hard work. Bam. There you go. It's kind of cool. I mean, that's the beautiful side of social media.

[Wells]

It's good. There's no. There's no rules as far as. Especially in the music industry and stuff. There's no rules anymore. Anyone who Tells you that they know what to do or that they know what they're doing. They're so full of shit, dog. Nobody knows what they're doing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

And like, we want. We want people to know because we want to ask, like, what could I do to, you know, to have to be successful or whatever. Then nobody knows. No, nobody knows. And there's no gatekeepers or anything like that. All you have to do is want to play music. Oh, yeah. And then go and do it on your phone and see if anyone likes you. If they like you, you're, you know, that's good. Yeah. Then everybody will come to you and say, I know how to make this bigger. And they don't know what they're talking about either.

[Joe Rogan]

Now. They're generally. They're vampires and they're trying to take a piece.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They're trying to clamp on to you.

[Wells]

Oh, they, they come out of the woodwork, dog.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you had people offer you a bunch of money?

[Wells]

Not a bunch, but they'll offer you a little for a lot, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

A little for a lot. Yeah, they want your future, right?

[Wells]

Yeah. They'll go, I would. You know, here's. There are all sorts of folks in the early days coming through labels and stuff going, we'll give you 10 grand for like 30 songs or something like that. And it's like, this is insulting. I don't want any of this. I don't want any. I don't need any of this.

[Joe Rogan]

Oliver Anthony was going through that right after Richmond. From Richmond, right? Richmond, north of Richmond. That song came out like they just came after him. All this money.

[Wells]

Oh, they will.

[Joe Rogan]

Fucking promises, they will.

[Wells]

They give you so much up front and you don't even, like, if you don't know, it's just a big ass loan that you're never gonna recoup. And then you're. You're not even. You're not living off your own dough at that point. You just living off of borrowed money like everybody else in the States.

[Joe Rogan]

And you're attached to them forever. Yeah, you're attached to them forever.

[Wells]

They own your masters. You'll never see it back. I mean, I assigned to a label when I was. Was like 22. I've been through that, all that crap.

[Joe Rogan]

How old are you now?

[Wells]

I'm 47.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you really? No.

[Wells]

You look great. No, I'm gonna be 33 this year.

[Joe Rogan]

But I believed you. I was like, man, kids, living good.

[Wells]

No, I'm just joshing you.

[Joe Rogan]

But, you know, this is a new time where you really can become hugely successful and get a gigantic following with no one attached to you.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Where you don't have to have all those people put. They're not gonna help you.

[Wells]

No, they don't. Too many cooks in the kitchen, way too many people wanting to.

[Joe Rogan]

And too many people eating at the dinner plate.

[Wells]

And dude, when anybody gives you money, like if label comes in, let's say Chris took. Let's say he took the deal, you know, or whatever. If Oliver Anthony took the big deal, then he's got all these people up there in the office with tax write off MacBooks telling him what to do with his music. Because they open their walls and they're gonna have to give you notes. They're entitled to give you their opinion at that point. And you wouldn't be able to just do whatever the hell he wants to do.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

You know, and I think it's so important for artists to be able to do whatever the hell they want to do, because that's the only way they can be themselves.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Wells]

And then that's the only way you can be successful, is to completely be yourself at all times. 100% nothing but yourself.

[Joe Rogan]

And you see that one thing that does happen when people do take the money and is that part goes away. Because even though you think you're kind of sort of being yourself, everybody knows you're not totally. You're not totally being yourself anymore.

[Wells]

And dough will change your life in a way that you might not like be ready for or something. It's gonna, you're gonna think, I got this dough now I can leave this town I don't like, or I can get the house that I was wanting when it was. It was really being in that town and kind of having things, difficult pressures around you and stuff. That was creating these diamonds that was putting you in this situation to make good art and stuff like that. And you take away all your discomfort and then realize you can't make art and you're not happy. And then you start getting nostalgic about the good old days when you were broke and shit like that. It's just better. It's. It's better to just take only what you need.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, then there's also the problem once you become successful of worrying about not being successful anymore, about maintaining it.

[Wells]

That's terrifying.

[Joe Rogan]

I gotta keep this going. Like, I can't. I can't fall off. But if I can't be less successful, I can't. I used to be poor and now I've got money, I gotta make sure. This doesn't go away. It's how you measure your thoughts. And you measure. You're measured in what you say.

[Wells]

No, no. Your measure of success is like, how much can I be myself and be happy? That way, if you can still be 100% yourself all the way to the end of the line, then that's your success.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but that's a smart way of looking at things. Most people look at things in terms of, like, what is the way that's the most profitable, you know, so they'll avoid certain controversy.

[Wells]

But we know that, like. We know even from talking about, like, people whose business, whose art is money. It creates misery to be chasing the bank account, to constantly have the dough. You know, like, you create a wake of. You create bad art. All right, Your album start to suck. You might be getting in bigger, bigger places and stuff like that, but, yeah, it's gonna. It's gonna fall off. And when it does, you know, then. Then you have, like, some existential problems to deal with at that point.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's always the devil's bargain, right? That fucking story is as old as time. That's the Robert Johnson story, right? They thought he sold his soul.

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah. Van Halen definitely sold his soul to the devil.

[Joe Rogan]

You think so? No, like Eddie Van Halen. Dude.

[Wells]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

You look a little like Eddie Van Halen.

[Wells]

I love Eddie Van Halen.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he's the man.

[Wells]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rogan]

He was the man.

[Wells]

He's the Robert Johnson of the. Of the late 70s. Him, Angus Young sold his soul.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't it funny, though, that that story was, like, always around? The story of selling your soul for success.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's an interesting. It's metaphor.

[Wells]

It doesn't. But it doesn't make any sense as far as, like, Robert John. He's like, he sold his soul. I guess. So he could play and then not be successful in his lifetime and die poor, and then we would all find him later.

[Joe Rogan]

I think the thought was that he was so much better than everybody else. There's no way he could have gone that far ahead without some help.

[Wells]

Right? He's spooky good. Yeah, he's spooky good. He's working in the future, but that's always.

[Joe Rogan]

There's always guys like that, like Hendrix. If anybody sold their soul, it's Hendrix. Hendrix.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Not that I think he did, but it's like when that guy came around, everybody was like, what the is going on?

[Wells]

In every generation, there's a player, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Wells]

And, I mean, maybe you could trace the line Johnson, Hendrix, that's skipping a few, but to Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen. And then you've got like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani and like Steve Ray Vaughan, these virtuosos. Stevie Ray Vaughan, so important to Texas too. Stevie.

[Joe Rogan]

Of him on stage at our club because, you know, I own this place that used to be a theater that he performed at, okay. And there's a photo of him on stage in 1983. So as you're walking to the stage, there's a photo of Stevie Ray Vaughan on stage in the back.

[Wells]

He's so cool. I don't know if you've seen like him at like Austin City Limits slinging his guitar behind his back.

[Joe Rogan]

He was the coolest.

[Wells]

Playing with his, his teeth. He's got all his scarves and stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

I almost got to drive him once when I was driving limos, but he wouldn't take limos.

[Wells]

What did he want?

[Joe Rogan]

I drove Jeff Beck. He wouldn't take limos. He only took cabs.

[Wells]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

They'd get him a limo, he's like, eh, I'm getting in a cab.

[Wells]

Okay?

[Joe Rogan]

He'd hop in a cab and talk to the cab driver. He didn't want to be Mr. Fancy in a limo.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't that interesting?

[Wells]

Salt of the earth, dude.

[Joe Rogan]

I was pissed though. I was like, yeah, almost got to drive Steve Ray Vaughan.

[Wells]

This is one, one of those talents every generation.

[Joe Rogan]

But it also shows you how dumb limo drivers are. Like the, the companies. Like you let a psycho like me, a 21 year old maniac, drive one of the greatest guitars of all time. Like I was a bad driver. Like I was a reckless kid. Like all of a sudden I had this job driving limos because I wore a suit. Like you're gonna trust me, Stevie Ray Vaughan.

[Wells]

I mean, safer than the helicopter pilots.

[Joe Rogan]

And stuff in the end. Yes. No, I'm just kidding. I mean I was a good driver when I was driving. Limits. Kind of crazy. Thank you. But it is kind of crazy that they let a 21 year old me just at the helm of a car with one of the greatest musicians of all time in the backseat.

[Wells]

It's always, it's fun to think back on that. Like when I was, When I was 18, I did a radio program for KDYN, Real Country Radio every Saturday morning. It was called Dial A Deal where people call in. It's basically like an on air craigslist, you know. But I was alone at the station after football games. You know, football game would be like Friday night, go to bed all Beat up, wake up at like 5am, going to the station, record the obituaries real quick because those are gonna run on. On Saturday. And then. And then do like a, you know, an on air Craigslist radio program. And you're just like 17 years old with the entire radio station to yourself, you know. Wow. I was a total dumbass too. I could have been like, anyway, here's Grand Funk Railroad, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

But did you have a specific list of things you're supposed to play?

[Wells]

The list was like programmed in. And then you had to record weather. So you would pull up the National Weather Service on the. On the screen and then you would record yourself doing the weather, saying, you know, winds are going to be southeast, south, southeast, northwest at 15 miles an hour or whatever. You do the obituaries. But no, you didn't actually dj. It was just like you would hit the space bar, music would start playing and be like, okay, folks, if you can't tell by the music, I'll go ahead and tell you myself. It's time for Dial a Deal. Remember, our numbers up here are 667-4567 or toll free at 888-325-Kdyn. That's 888-888-3325, KDYN. Remember, no commercial real estate advertisement. Please limit your calls to once per program. And keep in mind, I can't always keep track of these numbers up here myself. So if you remember them on your end, you're doing me and you a favor. Let's get back to the dialing and a dealing. And then people would call in and they'd be like, I'm looking. And I'd be like, somebody find that dog. And then, you know, list off their number or.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you ever play any of your songs?

[Wells]

No, no. It was a classic country radio station. So I'm up there listening to like Willie Waylon, Hank Senior, Hank junior And then also they were playing. They were playing like some modern. Like, I remember Brad Paisley was being played on air and he just shredded. But. But no, I couldn't. I couldn't. I was in a grunge band at the time. I couldn't play.

[Joe Rogan]

Were you really?

[Wells]

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I couldn't put. Once I printed out this track listing for the record that I had made. I would make CD records and sell them at school, like five bucks a. I made more money selling records in high school than I ever did as an adult. But I printed out all the song lists anyway. The album was called Mom, I'm Gay. And all the. I left a bunch of them, like, at the radio station. I remember the guy who was running it, he came to me and he was like, did you print these out? Are these yours? And it was just kind of awkward after that. A small town in Arkansas, kind of far out.

[Joe Rogan]

That's funny.

[Wells]

But, you know, folks. Folks will let a. Let a young person do all kinds of stuff. I guess they see an aptitude in you, they trust you, so they let you drive a limo.

[Joe Rogan]

I think they just needed a job. They needed someone to do the job. It's that simple. And most people would only temporarily keep that job and they would leave.

[Wells]

Right, Right. High turnover.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wells]

There's high turnover at the radio station because we weren't making any dough.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Wells]

You know, what year was this? This was in 1927. 2010.

[Joe Rogan]

I do a lot of radio when I was young and doing the road. So I do, like, morning radio shows in the middle of nowhere.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it was the only way to promote things like, say if you're gonna do some gig in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, like, you get on local radio, you tell everybody, drive time radio, so you're on the air, it's like 6:30 in the morning, and let everybody know you're gone. Radio was a weird thing, man, because it was like a local connection, and all that stuff is kind of gone now.

[Wells]

Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, local connection used to be fun. It was. There was something about listening to the local radio in the morning when you're on your way to work. It was kind of cool.

[Wells]

It was great.

[Joe Rogan]

And you knew that all most of your friends were listening to.

[Wells]

Right. You know, they had a program called, like, I forget what it was. But on every morning, they would go through the sponsors of the radio station, which were all local businesses, and they would say, here's a cup of coffee for Burns Drug. And it was just like a call out to Burns Pharmacy or whatever. And then you'd hear the sound of a coffee cup the obituaries ran. You'd listen to them. You'd be like, oh, Janine died, damn it. We had to go to the memorial. They would tell what the hillbillies, like, the mascot was the Hillbillies. And, like, how high school football was doing and stuff like that.

[Joe Rogan]

I wonder if anybody's creating that in podcasts. I wonder if there's any good local podcasts that are just about the community that you could, like, tune into every day. Like, here's the news.

[Wells]

You know, I might have to start one. Why not this local? Why not Anonymous and local. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Just don't even say it's you.

[Wells]

Make up another name. Yeah, yeah, this is Bob Butts.

[Joe Rogan]

And people go, I know that is.

[Wells]

No, you don't.

[Joe Rogan]

I heard that.

[Wells]

Dude, I'm not who.

[Joe Rogan]

You gonna do a different voice?

[Wells]

I know you, but you don't know me.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you gonna change your voice? You should do that.

[Wells]

No, I can't do the local news.

[Joe Rogan]

It's one of those things like an FBI informant. We went into the house at 4:30 in the morning, you know? You know what I mean? They have those people on TV with their face blacked out.

[Wells]

Those vice.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you sure that the government was involved? 100%. They had to know the information came down from the top.

[Wells]

Show their face.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, show their face, they get to get them killed. How many do you do A lot of live games.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How many live gigs do you do? Do you do like in a week, do you do a bunch? Like how do you do it?

[Wells]

No, I just scheduled tours. So like tomorrow I'll now I'll announce a tour and I think it's like 20 something dates and then I'll go out for two months and, and play, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

You just play solo? Do you bring solo?

[Wells]

No, I bring a band. Oh, that's a whole band. And then right now I've just been in festival season, so I just played the Newport Folk Fest. Shout Newport.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you do any of these songs like United Health?

[Wells]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You do all of them?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Nice.

[Wells]

I got. Because I. I'm just always putting out albums. Like. Yeah, like on Friday I'll put out another record too.

[Joe Rogan]

How many albums do you have so far?

[Wells]

Like five or six. You know, I wrote like a hundred songs in 24 and just like put them all out. And that's what's great about being indie is like you can just put out music as soon as you make it, right? So. So there's. But there's a lot of tunes to choose from, right. Usually, you know, on the set I'll play a lot of these, a lot of these topical ones and then bring the band up and then we'll play the other records that I got. But no, I was just at Newport and then we did Edmonton Folk Fest and here in a little bit I'll do Farm Aid and Healing Appalachia. Farm Aid was like last year around this time John Cougar Mellencamp sent me an email and was like, jesse, I would like you to play at Farm Aid. But it was from a weird email address and I didn't believe it was him, but it was totally him. Just like, emailing through his girlfriend's email or something.

[Joe Rogan]

That's hilarious.

[Wells]

And so I showed it to one of the, like, one of my friends he helps manage, and he was like, I'll vet this out. We'll see if this is legit. And sure enough, it was. Anyway, go down to Farm Aid, and that's, like, one of the first gigs that I play as this iteration of myself. But got to, you know, got to meet a lot of cool people and. And get to be friends with. With a lot of them, too. Lucas Nelson is. It was very cool to meet him last year. Now I think we'll be doing a tune together here before too long, but nice him. I got to meet Charlie over there at Farm Aid.

[Joe Rogan]

Charlie?

[Wells]

Charlie Crockett.

[Joe Rogan]

It. Oh, Charlie's awesome.

[Wells]

He's super.

[Joe Rogan]

I really enjoyed talking to him.

[Wells]

Yeah, he's great.

[Joe Rogan]

He was a great guest. What a wild life that guy's lived. Yeah, that's, like. That comes out in his music. There's something about, like, hard living, like, living an authentically difficult life that, like, you hear it in the way they sing. Yeah, you hear it. It's real.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, like, there's like an intangible element to certain songs. Songs, you know, South B. Yeah.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, AI is not gonna fix that. They're not gonna. You know what I mean? Like, AI's not gonna overcome that.

[Wells]

No, I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the. Maybe the only thing that AI is not going to overcome.

[Wells]

I would be worried. I. I don't understand why musicians, you know, they're.

[Joe Rogan]

They're making, like, let me. I'm gonna send you something, Jamie. I don't know if you've seen this, where they made a female indie, like, emo, whatever. It would be band lady. And it's really good.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, you listen to it. You're like, holy. I sent it to Patrick from the Black Keys, Patrick Carney. And. And he was. His answer was like, pop music is AI. Has been for a while. Good thing I suck at drums and make it human.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I'm going to send this to you, Jamie, because you. You. You hear it and you're like, oh, my God, this could be a giant hit. And the crazy thing is that AI makes this in seconds, right? I mean, in literal seconds. Like, you watch this guy put in the prompts. You watch it make this song, and then you listen to the song and you're like, right. Oh, my God. And it's better Than most of these songs. Like, listen to this.

[Wells]

Create a square avatar of a fictitious.

[Joe Rogan]

Female alternative slash indie singer and a name for her. Wow. Sadie Winters. Okay. This is about walking away from someone who never really saw her worth. Just gonna create the song lyrics. Look at that. Wait, how many seconds was that? That was like about 4 seconds. Look at that.

[Wells]

That's got a bridge.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you even read any of these.

[Jamie]

Or you don't care?

[Wells]

Care.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't care. Put my lyrics in the lyrics that happen in four seconds. Yes.

[Wells]

And then hit create. Let's listen.

[Joe Rogan]

This is the world premiere. She's a good singer. Good singer. Oh, that's nice.

[Wells]

Pretty good. Where are we, Rick? Where have we found ourselves?

[Joe Rogan]

How crazy is that? I mean, look at that. Jewel even says. Jewel goes. Wow. It's a great melody.

[Wells]

Yeah. Listen, artists, everything that can be replaced will be replaced. Okay? And pop music was already. AI Patrick has a great point.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

I don't think artists, if you. What you're making, I don't think you got nothing to worry about.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's not a worry. It's. I mean, for some people, I'm sure it's a worry. But it also is just a concern that there's a new element of society. There's creativity is being replaced in at least a form right in front of our eyes. Like, regardless of what you think about pop music, there. There are some people that are making pop music in a. As a creative endeavor and that just did it way better than they do and did it like. Like that.

[Wells]

They'll have to find something else to do.

[Joe Rogan]

To find something else to do.

[Wells]

Listen to something else in JCPenney.

[Joe Rogan]

Dog who still goes to JCPenney? I mean, are they still around? Is there a JCPenney?

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

At where you are.

[Wells]

I go JCPenney.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not knocking it. I'd go if I needed something. I'm just saying I haven't seen one in a long time. You know, I see targets everywhere. I don't see JCPenney anywhere.

[Wells]

I just. The music like that always. Yeah. I feel like I'm in it. Yeah. I feel like I'm an academy or. Yeah, yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

You're buying sneakers somewhere.

[Wells]

I just need something to go in the background. Some non confrontational music. Yeah. Carry it through.

[Joe Rogan]

But what you said I think is right, that if you can be replaced, you will be replaced.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

All things that can be replaced will be replaced.

[Wells]

It's how it has always been. As long as man has been around. Everything that can be replaced will be Replaced. But there are things that are irreplaceable, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of in every, every new iteration of technology. We're seeing things get replaced. Right, Right. Like when I was a bit a kid, VHS was the newest technology. Like, oh my God, you could watch a movie at home.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

No one ever thought Blockbuster was ever gonna go away. Of course, there's always gonna be a Blockbuster.

[Wells]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Every Friday night everybody goes to Blockbuster to find a movie to watch. Gone.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Doesn't exist. Gone.

[Wells]

Like that.

[Joe Rogan]

Like real quick streaming, Internet speeds pick up, it's over.

[Wells]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, remember record sales? Oh my goodness. They would make millions and millions and millions just from selling records. Now it all went away. Napster came along and some people freaked out and you know, some people lost a lot of fans because they freaked out too. Like, try to stop the tide of inevitability.

[Wells]

I mean, didn't Hetfield. And I mean, Metallica was eventually kind of right about what they said about Napster. Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, they knew. Yeah.

[Wells]

They knew what was.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, they knew it was going away. Yeah, it was all going away. I mean, everybody kind of understood that. This is. If you're logical and objective, you could pretend like, oh, don't worry, we're gonna be fine. But if you're logical and objective, you go, oh, this is just the first bullet that landed in this never ending war with, with digital information. Like, you're not gonna be able to prevent this from happening.

[Wells]

Yeah. I think the record companies have figured out how to make money off of streaming and to make sure that the artist probably doesn't get all that much of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, this is the beautiful thing about being independent. If you're independent, you can make money off of streaming. And if you're independent, you had all of your touring revenue, which is really where it's at. You get all of it.

[Wells]

Make enough to pay for another tour.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it depends on how successful you are. But this is what's really crazy about some of the deals that some of these artists are signing, where the label gets a giant percentage of their touring money, which didn't used to be the case. It used to be like an artist.

[Wells]

They find a way to pull it in somehow. They're not selling the records.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. They get a piece of merch, they get a piece of this, they get a piece of everything. They just own you.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And what value do they provide other than you getting the security of saying.

[Wells]

I'm on Warner Brothers just standing in the way every time you try to Put out an album, they go, I don't hear a hit here. It's like, well, cuz there are none. Okay, wait for the next record, it's out in two months, you know. But they want to make as much as they possibly can off of one record. And the one record, it puts an immense amount of pressure on an artist without developing the artist at all. What's haunted the music industry is a shallow money trench where good men die like dogs. You know, it's a racket.

[Joe Rogan]

But don't you think that now less of it because there are people like you out there. There's Quote, you know, Tyler, the creator, he make most of his. Everything was just created by himself online, right?

[Wells]

I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't that the case? You don't know.

[Wells]

You don't know, but that's too hard.

[Jamie]

I don't know. Who knows?

[Joe Rogan]

Was it a weird one?

[Jamie]

Him specifically? I don't know. But I would say, folks, that's the story that's being told.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. But some people have done it, right? Yeah, Oliver Anthony for sure did it.

[Wells]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's, you know, it's a new pathway. If you have something that really resonates, like your United Health song song or any of your songs, like that's all you need, you know, and then. Yeah, that one thing can change everything. And then people listen.

[Wells]

Totally. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And the fact that you're able to do it completely independently, you're able to have like a truly authentic voice. Like it's like when you sing about who's the guy that created it that doesn't give a fuck. What's his name?

[Wells]

Richard T. Burke.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, Richard T. Burke. That you could sing about. Richard T. Burke doesn't give a fuck. Like it's. No one's in your ear.

[Wells]

Nobody's telling you to be careful. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So like I'm here and I'm like, yeah, you know, it, it. People know. They know when something is authentic. It's real weird. They're fucking the way people tune into a song. It's. There's something going on with songs, you know, It's. It's not. Not just like a bunch of music and a bunch of lyrics. Like it changes the way you feel. Yeah, it's a drug.

[Wells]

Yeah, it's a weird.

[Joe Rogan]

Like a good song is like a good drug.

[Wells]

Yeah. Dude, have you heard Freebird?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh yeah, dude, I've heard that song about a thousand. More than a thousand times.

[Wells]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

A hundred thousand times maybe.

[Wells]

Yeah. If you don't think music's a job. Listen to Freebird.

[Joe Rogan]

Listen to that guitar solo.

[Wells]

Running with the devil.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah A whole lot of love.

[Wells]

Yeah. Fired up songs.

[Joe Rogan]

There's songs that change the way you feel, that if that was a drug, that would be a very valuable drug.

[Wells]

Yeah, you know, they're little. Little mood capsules, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Wells]

I want to feel melancholy. Here's Yesterday by the Beatles. Right, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yesterday. Yeah. There's a bunch of songs. Captain Jackson.

[Wells]

Jack, you know Captain Jack.

[Joe Rogan]

Captain Jack will get you high tonight.

[Wells]

Oh, I was thinking. It's fantastic. Elton John.

[Joe Rogan]

Captain Jack is one of Billy Joel's greatest songs. It's a great song. This guy living on Long Island. It's great. It's a great song. It's like, you listen to it, you're like, God damn, he nailed it. He nailed it.

[Wells]

He's one of the greats, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Dude, I really appreciate you coming in and I really love what you're doing.

[Wells]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Rogan]

I just wanted to. Want to have you in here, shoot the shit with you, see what your process was and how you think about things and. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[Wells]

Thanks for having me, Joe.

[Joe Rogan]

My pleasure. Tell everybody. What's the best place to find you and find your stuff?

[Wells]

You know, I'm online, so go, you know, get online.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you have a. What is your Instagram?

[Wells]

Wells Music. Wells Music.

[Joe Rogan]

There it is. W E L L E S. Yeah, so it's wellsmusic.com Tour dates are all there. Yeah, Go out, see them. Support. Dude, continued success and best of luck to you.

[Wells]

I really.

[Joe Rogan]

I really enjoy what you're doing.

[Wells]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Rogan]

My pleasure, brother. All right, goodbye, everybody.

[Wells]

Sa.