Joe Rogan Experience #2367 – Jesse Wells (August 19, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe Rogan sits down with songwriter and musician Jesse Wells (stylized Wells) for a freewheeling conversation about music, society, the healthcare industry, human nature, the state of the media, and more. The tone moves from critical and contemplative to humorous and punchy, with both host and guest riffing off conspiracies, the music business, the American psyche, and the power of songs that “sing the news.” Notably, Wells performs and discusses two pointed topical songs lampooning United Healthcare and philanthropist-capitalists.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jesse Wells' Musical Background and Upbringing

• Earliest Influences: Wells grew up in a creative but non-musical family ("Everyone worked and made art when they weren't working...I felt like they were artistic folks, you know, but they didn't necessarily do music, you know, they're smarter than that." – Wells, 00:35)
• Early Work: Began music young, with inspirations both from his family’s artistry and broader American folk traditions.

2. The United Healthcare Song and Healthcare as a Con

• Song Genesis: Wells began making topical songs inspired by news events—most notably "United Healthcare." This song arose in response to social anger after an assassination related to the healthcare industry.
• The System's Failings: The discussion pivots to how for-profit health care creates perverse incentives, leaving people unprotected (02:08-03:09). Both Joe and Jesse agree the system often feels like a scam, especially with the advent of AI denying claims at unprecedented rates.
  • Joe Rogan: "They're taking your fucking money ... to fight it, you have to go to court, and you usually don't have the money ... and they have a lot of money." (02:11)
  • Wells: "The system would have to be revolution. I mean, you can't have health for, for profit at that point." (03:09)
• Motivation in Medicine: Joe voices concern about socialized medicine removing the incentives for top-tier performance, citing financial motivation’s impact on excellence. (03:17-04:17)
• Songwriting Process: Wells describes his approach: thorough research and distilling complex issues into “punchlines” with a jolly melody, mirroring the craft of stand-up comedy. (06:00-06:54)

3. Topical Music and the Folk Tradition

• "Singing the News": Wells draws inspiration from Woody Guthrie, aiming to continue the folk tradition of documenting and satirizing current events through song. (10:29-13:15)
  • Wells: “I'm gonna do this ... I'm gonna sing the news.” (10:52)
• The American Bard: Wells romanticizes this role as uniquely American, valuing the freedom to satirize the powerful without fear of persecution. (13:44)

4. Institutional Abuse and Historical Atrocities

• Lobotomy & Mental Health: Joe and Jesse discuss the story of Rosemary Kennedy’s lobotomy as a window into the historic abuses of medicine and mental health care, drawing gruesome parallels to today’s questionable practices—“benzos,” psychiatric drugs, and more. (16:08-25:14)
  • Joe Rogan: “The craziest ones … when the side effects of antidepressants are suicide.” (27:58)
• Conspiracies & Atrocity: The conversation delves into the U.S. government’s role in scalp bounties, genocide, and other violent historic practices (35:54-41:46). Joe remarks on the difficulty of reconciling modern society's failings given the horrors of the recent past.
  • Joe Rogan: “People were horrible all throughout human history. And I think that's what we really have to come to grips with.” (40:08)

5. Human Nature, War, and the Cycles of Violence

• Nature of Violence: Wells questions if humans are hardwired for violence via “Heart of Darkness” and “Apocalypse Now” analogies (43:12-46:14). Joe contends war is likely inevitable given human history and resource competition. (48:11-49:52)
• “War Is a Racket” (Smedley Butler): They discuss the general’s insights into war profiteering and the manipulation of public narratives for elite interest (51:02-53:53).

6. Manufactured Chaos & Disinformation

• Government Plots & Conspiracies: The duo floats theories about Operation Northwoods, the Oklahoma City bombing, and law enforcement’s practices of encouraging and then arresting would-be extremists (60:47-74:17).
• Internet Chaos: Joe and Jesse consider the prevalence of bots and manufactured outrage on social media (“bot wars”) as a means to justify censorship and control. (58:21-60:41)

7. The Music Business and Artistic Autonomy

• Music Industry Scams: Wells details modern record label contracts as modern-day “devil’s bargains,” telling artists to be wary of exploitative deals. (118:27-122:17)
• Maintaining Authenticity: Both agree the highest measure of artistic success is retaining authenticity and creative freedom, regardless of commercial incentives. (122:17-123:18)
• Devil’s Bargain Metaphor: The classic trope of the “artist selling his soul” for fame becomes a motif in their discussion about the costs of success. (123:18-124:49)

8. AI and the Future of Creativity

• Music Creation by AI: Joe plays a completely AI-generated indie pop song, sparking a discussion about technological displacement and irreplaceability in art—the only way to survive is to be truly unique. (136:08-140:10)
  • Wells: "If you can be replaced, you will be replaced. All things that can be replaced will be replaced." (139:54)

9. Social Media and the Independent Path

• Disintermediation: Wells praises social media and modern DIY tools as leveling the playing field for musicians. He encourages authenticity, warning that no industry expert “knows what they’re doing” anymore. (117:25-118:10)
• Vampires of the Industry: Both point out how industry gatekeepers and record labels act as “vampires,” only adding pressure and stealing revenue from artists’ success. (118:10-120:05)

10. Power, Philanthropy, and the Ruling Class

• "Philanthro-capitalism": Wells performs his song “Philanthropist” lampooning billionaire philanthropists who profit from global crises and exploit “good works” for power and wealth. (83:41)
• Joe Rogan: “Philanthropy ... is actually very profitable, which is weird. ... Bill Gates made hundreds of millions off the pandemic.” (83:22-83:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joe Rogan (on United Healthcare/American healthcare):
  “They take your fucking money, you pay them, and then when something comes up, you don't get covered and there doesn't seem to be any repercussions.” (02:11)
• Wells (on songwriting topical songs):
  “Let's write 2,000 words so that we can have 300 to sing and boil down the essence of the issue and make it rhyme and, and put a jolly tune behind it.” (06:00)
• Joe Rogan (on Smedley Butler):
  “War is a racket. It always has been. ... A few people make huge fortunes. Butler confessed ... I helped Mexico, especially Tampa, go safe for American oil interests in 1914.” (52:22)
• Wells ("Philanthropist" song):
  “With data's my oil and illness is my business, with guns as my retirement and war as my mistress...” (84:01)
• Joe Rogan (on authenticity):
  “People like authenticity. ... You want to know that someone is actually telling you what they think, and you don't get any of that from them.” (111:15)
• Wells (on being an independent artist):
  “All you have to do is want to play music. ... If they like you, you're, you know, that's good. Yeah. Then everybody will come to you and say, I know how to make this bigger. And they don't know what they're talking about either.” (117:38)
• Joe Rogan (on AI music):
  “Creativity is being replaced in at least a form right in front of our eyes.” (139:44)
• Wells (on irreplaceability):
  “If you can be replaced, you will be replaced. ... But there are things that are irreplaceable, right?” (139:58)

Important Timestamps

• 00:26 – 02:33: Wells’ family background and Rogan’s introduction to Wells’ music
• 02:33 – 03:40: Critique of United Healthcare and the con of for-profit health insurance
• 06:00 – 07:27: Songwriting process compared to stand-up, influence of punchline-driven comedians
• 08:43 – 09:59: Live performance: “United Healthcare” song
• 10:29 – 13:11: Folk tradition, Woody Guthrie’s influence
• 16:03 – 24:27: History of lobotomy, mental health care, and current-day pharmaceutical parallels
• 35:54 – 41:46: Scalp bounties, genocide, and U.S. history of violence
• 51:02 – 53:53: “War is a Racket,” Smedley Butler, and profiteering
• 83:41 – 85:37: Performance of “Philanthropist” song
• 136:08 – 140:10: AI-generated music and creativity
• 117:25 – 118:10: The un-gatekept, independent music path

Tone and Style

• The episode blends satirical humor with biting social critique and a sense of existential bewilderment.
• Wells’ folk, left-libertarian-tinged skepticism meshes with Rogan’s populist, anti-institutional worldview.
• The conversations flow organically, moving through sharp satire, the healing and galvanizing power of music, and anxiety about technological change.

Summary for Listeners

This episode is far more than a showcase of Jesse Wells’ unique topical songwriting. It’s a philosophical jam session on current events, human nature, and the unstoppable currents of history and innovation. Listeners will find sharp criticisms of healthcare (highlighted by Wells' witty “United Healthcare” tune), deep dives into conspiracy, a probing look at artistry vs. commerce, and a thoughtful torch-passing of the American folk tradition—reimagined for the viral era.

Through memorable songs and sharp banter, Rogan and Wells remind us that while systems and trends may be rigged or corrupt, the act of telling the truth in rhyme or joke is as powerful—and irreplaceable—as ever.

For More

Follow Jesse Wells at wellsmusic.com or on Instagram at @wellsmusic.
Catch the full Joe Rogan Experience for the [complete conversation and music performances].