The Joe Rogan Experience #2368 — Michael Button

Released: August 20, 2025

Overview

Theme/Purpose:
In this wide-ranging, electrifying episode, Joe Rogan welcomes YouTuber and ancient history enthusiast Michael Button for a deep dive into humanity's mysterious past. Their conversation explores evidence challenging mainstream narratives about the origins and development of human civilization, the limitations of the archaeological record, paradigm-shifting discoveries, lost civilizations, the role of cataclysms, and fresh ideas at the fringe of historical and scientific thought.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Button’s Origin Story and Approach

• YouTube Beginnings: Michael started his YouTube channel under a year ago, gaining traction in March when his videos on ancient history were recommended, including to Joe Rogan ([00:24]–[01:05]).
• Academic Journey: Studied ancient history at university but became dissatisfied with broad timelines of history, particularly conventional ideas about when sophisticated human behavior began ([01:13]–[02:41]).
• Button describes questioning the view that "nothing happened" for hundreds of thousands of years:

  "I just didn't buy this idea that nothing happened for like vast stretch of time..." (Michael Button, [02:11])

2. Paradigm-Shifting Discoveries in Human Evolution

• Moroccan Homo sapiens Remains: Discovery of 300,000–360,000-year-old modern human remains at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco, dramatically pushing back the timeline for Homo sapiens ([02:42]–[03:00]).
  • “This discovery pushed back the age of our species by another third...” (Button, [02:54])
• Late Bronze Age Collapse: The study of how small changes in climate brought advanced civilizations to a sudden end, provoking speculation about older, now-vanished civilizations ([04:19]–[05:53]).

3. Questioning the Mainstream Narrative

• Prehistory vs. History: The arbitrary distinction between 'prehistory' and 'history' is criticized—what if much is missing because so little is preserved or found ([05:55]–[07:15])?
• Academic Arrogance: Button criticizes some mainstream academics for pretending certainty about ancient history:

  “Some particularly vocal mainstream historians and scientists seem to claim to know absolute truth about the past. And that's just stupid.” (Button, [06:32])

4. Challenging the Definition & Timelines of Civilization

• Gobekli Tepe as the "Smoking Gun":
  • At over 12,000 years old, Gobekli Tepe is cited as evidence for earlier, complex human culture. Only 5% has been unearthed ([08:16]–[10:34]).
  • Rogan: “There’s speculation that one of the pillars from Gobekli Tepe... depicts some sort of a disaster...” ([09:52])
• Definition of Civilization:
  • Button critiques the Mesopotamia-centric model, arguing for broader definitions:

    "That definition has really kept a lot of people boxed in..." ([11:41])

5. Agriculture’s Multiple Origins and Global Gaps

• The simultaneous emergence of agriculture in diverse places like South America, Mesopotamia, and China is mysterious if it is such an “essential” breakthrough ([13:23]–[15:48]).
• Multiple warm periods ("Eemian" 130–115kya) should also have allowed agriculture, but no clear evidence, raising questions about our assumptions ([14:43]–[15:48]).

6. The "Preservation Problem" in Archaeology

• Erosion of Evidence: Both agree that even modern cities would almost entirely disappear after 100,000 years ([17:36]–[18:21]).
  • “The scary truth is it's almost nothing. Cement buildings... would just deteriorate.” (Button, [17:36])
• Tiny Data Set:
  • There are only 9 confirmed Homo sapiens sites older than 100,000 years, a minuscule sample from which to extrapolate entire species’ activities ([20:15]–[20:33]).

7. The Egyptian Enigma

• Egypt as an Anomaly: The Great Pyramid’s sophistication vs. the rest of the world in 2500 BCE seems inexplicable ([23:29]–[24:01]).
• Tomb Hypothesis Questioned:
  • Rogan and Button dispute the assumption that pyramids were built as tombs given lack of bodies and the generic nature of later “tomb” pyramids ([26:58]–[27:23]).
• Alternative Theories:
  • Christopher Dunn’s "power plant" theory, extensive underground structures, and the Sphinx’s rain erosion all highlight unexplained aspects ([27:53]–[33:04]).

8. The Blind Spots of Modern Archaeology

• Ignored Regions: North and sub-Saharan Africa are largely unexplored archaeologically, even though the Sahara was green and habitable for 9,000 years ([29:05]–[30:09]).
• Rapid Climate Shifts: The climate change that turned the Sahara into desert likely pushed populations into the Nile Valley (potentially explaining rapid Egyptian development) ([30:09]–[31:08]).

9. Evidence for Much Older Settlements

• Kalambo Structure:
  • In Zambia, a 476,000-year-old wooden structure, potentially evidence of intelligent construction before modern humans ([38:20]–[41:33]).
    • “Mainstream anthropology was off by over 400,000 years regarding the advent of intelligence and the advent of permanent living.” (Button, [43:27])

10. Civilizational "Bottlenecks" and Cataclysms

• Supervolcanoes & Toba Event: The Toba eruption 74,000 years ago and other probable bottlenecks could have reset civilization, erasing all but minimal evidence ([44:02]–[45:54]).
• Younger Dryas & Catastrophe:
  • Rogan: “It’s possible that there’s been this rise of some sort of a civilization and then massive catastrophe and a rebuilding. Just like if we’re talking about the Younger Dryas…” ([44:34])

11. Lost Civilizations and Rapid Decay

• Amazonian Civilizations: Lidar has revealed vast cities in the Amazon that disappeared in mere centuries, raising the possibility other such cultures vanished ({46:40]).
• Nature Reclaims: Abandoned modern cities like Detroit and Chernobyl are rapidly overgrown ([47:10]–[47:29]).

12. Reassessing Human and Non-Human Intelligence

• Neanderthals and Other Hominids: The myth of Neanderthal stupidity is outdated; significant evidence exists for cognition and culture ([47:59]–[48:41]).
• Academic Resistance:
  • “It will change... we're on the brink of quite a massive shift in our perspective.” (Button, [49:34])

13. The Internet and Democratization of Knowledge

• Role of Podcasts and YouTube: Button argues that the internet “democratized” the conversation on prehistory, breaking old academic gatekeeping ([50:25]–[51:31]).

14. Evidence, Identity, and Academic Gatekeeping

• Button and Rogan agree entrenched academic interests resist paradigm shifts due to ego and career investment, often resorting to personal attacks on figures like Graham Hancock ([52:30]–[53:36]).
  • “You wrote this book, this stupid book. This book misled people for decades. You were so wrong. Like, they will fight it with every ounce of their being because it's essentially their identity.” (Rogan, [52:30])

15. Myths, King Lists, and Collective Memory

• Ancient king lists going back tens of thousands of years (Egyptian, Sumerian), the flood myths found worldwide, and the preservation of complex information through myth ([62:14]–[63:25], [121:06]–[121:20]).
  • Button: “Myth is powerful, because it’s the thing we’ve collectively remembered as a species...” ([121:17])

16. Wild Discoveries and Anomalous Artifacts

• Cart tracks and wheels millions of years old: Cart-rut formations in stone in Malta and Turkey, possibly dated in the millions of years, plus anomalous “fossilized wheels” ([126:10]–[132:56]).
• The Longyou Caves: Massive, unexplained rock-cut caverns in China, found in 1992; scale and precision perplex analysts ([109:35]–[111:05]).
• Derenkuyu Underground City: Turkey’s mysterious subterranean complexes, size and purpose unexplained ([107:51]–[108:30]).

17. UFOs, Ancient Aliens, and the Limits of Knowledge

• Encounters with mummified, non-human bodies in Peru, three-fingered and three-toed, tie together modern and ancient myth, folklore, and recent allegedly real discoveries ([150:04]–[155:31]).
• Rogan:

  “Anybody who tells you that we know it all, they're full of shit. If that's real... you don't know anything.” ([156:53])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Archaeological Arrogance:

  “How can anyone know about what happened 100,000 years ago or 200,000 years ago?”
  — Michael Button ([06:32])

• On Academic Paradigms:

  “I think we're on the brink of quite a massive shift in our perspective regarding [history]... science advances one funeral at a time.”
  — Joe Rogan ([49:40])

• On Evidence Gaps:

  “Do you know how many Homo sapien sites we have from more than 100,000 years ago?... Nine.”
  — Michael Button ([20:15])

• On Myth as Science:

  “Myth is powerful, because it’s the thing we’ve collectively remembered as a species...”
  — Michael Button ([121:17])

• On the Catastrophic Reset:

  “If a fucking comet slams into the ocean right there... massive flooding, like instantaneous. Millions of gallons of water tearing through the landscape. No more ice cap. It’s all gone… any kind of culture that was possibly around, it’s just wipes. Completely wiped clean from the earth.”
  — Joe Rogan ([124:51])

• On Lost Technology:

  “They clearly had some form of technology that we don’t attribute to them. I think that that’s undisputed. I mean, it is disputed, but I don't think. I don't see how you can logically kind of look at what they were doing and not think they had some kind of technology that, you know, we don’t traditionally attribute them to.”
  — Michael Button (on Egypt, [95:33])

• On the Humbling Nature of Discovery:

  “Things just keep getting older.”
  — Joe Rogan ([82:39])

Notable Timestamps

• [02:54] — Discovery of Jebel Irhoud changes Homo sapiens’ timeline.
• [08:16] — Gobekli Tepe as evidence of ancient sophistication.
• [17:36] — What survives of modern civilization in 100,000 years?
• [20:15] — Only nine ancient Homo sapiens sites older than 100,000 years.
• [38:20] — The 476,000-year-old Kalambo structure and what it suggests.
• [44:27] — Bottlenecks like Toba eruption and supervolcanoes.
• [109:45] — Longyou Caves in China: another unsolved archaeological mystery.
• [126:10] — Fossilized cart tracks and "wheels" millions of years old.
• [153:42] — Mummified three-fingered beings in Peru.

Flow & Tone

• Language/Tone:
  The tone is casual, inquisitive, and skeptical yet enthusiastic—typical of JRE. Button is measured, respectful of mainstream expertise but energetic and eager to push boundaries. Rogan alternates between wonder, sarcasm, and provocative incredulity.
• Dynamic:
  Rogan acts as a lay provocateur and hype-man, often referencing alternative history and UFO lore, while Button provides thoughtful, evidence-based context but is unafraid to speculate.

Final Takeaways

• Many foundational beliefs about the emergence of civilization, the development of agriculture, and the intelligence of human ancestors are being actively challenged by new findings and re-evaluated old data.
• The lack of physical evidence does not necessarily indicate the absence of past civilizations, especially given preservation issues and discovered outliers like Gobekli Tepe, the Kalambo Structure, and the Longyou Caves.
• There is a growing willingness—especially outside of traditional academia—to contemplate radical uncertainties and paradigm shifts regarding our species' deep past.
• Ongoing discoveries (of structures, artifacts, even alleged non-human remains) promise many more surprises—“things just keep getting older.”

Where to find Michael Button:

• YouTube: [Michael Button 1]

Summary compiled for those seeking a comprehensive, timestamped overview of Episode #2368 with Michael Button on The Joe Rogan Experience.