The Joe Rogan Experience #2372 – Garry Nolan

Date: August 28, 2025
Guest: Dr. Garry Nolan, Professor of Pathology, Stanford University

Episode Overview

This episode of The Joe Rogan Experience features Dr. Garry Nolan, a renowned Stanford immunologist and cancer researcher with significant involvement in the study of UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) and anomalous materials. The conversation spans Dr. Nolan's cutting-edge cancer research, the intersection of AI and biomedical sciences, the philosophical and practical implications of new technologies, and an in-depth exploration of UAP investigations—from medical cases to material analyses.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Garry Nolan’s Background and Cancer Research (00:12–11:26)

• Nolan's work: Focuses on the interface of the immune system and cancer, especially how tumors evolve mechanisms to escape immune detection—a dynamic seen across animal species.
• Innovations in research tools:
  • Developed instruments to analyze dozens of immune cell proteins simultaneously, allowing for deeper understanding and data-driven modeling of individual cancers and immune responses.
  • Quote: "I came up with a way to look at 50 or 60 proteins at a time, and then suddenly that gave us the ability to look at nearly every cell type in the body and immune cell types." (10:23)
• Personal experience: Nolan shares he has a gene (MIDFE318K) making him susceptible to melanoma and kidney cancer—he's survived both.

2. Personalization and Challenges in Cancer Medicine (13:19–17:10)

• Individual variability: The need for personalized cancer treatments, guided by genomics and advanced diagnostics, due to differences in cancer pathways even within the same cancer type.
• Quote: "The diversity that makes humanity great ... is that there are individual differences that one person might survive and another won't. It's the same thing with cancers, and it's the same thing with drugs." (13:50)

3. Sun Exposure, Mutations, and Prevention (17:10–20:28)

• Sun & cancer risk: Discusses myths about sun exposure; for people with genetic risk, limited sun is safest. Explains how technology like CRISPR might eventually be used as preventive topical solutions.
• Quote: "Maybe with things like CRISPR, I could rub a CRISPR ointment on my body, it would fix the single point mutation in my skin, and then I could enjoy the sun again." (19:31)
• RNA delivery technology: Clarifies misconceptions about mRNA, adjuvants, and their side effects.

4. Early Detection, Scanning, and Imaging Risks (24:02–30:54)

• Early detection: Recommends regular MRIs (not CTs, which can cause cancer) for baseline anomaly detection.
• Personal anecdote: Nolan describes how an observant pet helped discover one of his melanomas in time for life-saving removal.
• Imaging technology: Details the history of X-ray harm and how randomness in DNA damage from radiation relates to tumorigenesis.

5. The Evolutionary and Systemic Nature of Cancer (28:42–30:54)

• Cancer as evolutionary regression: Cancer seen as 'devolution'—cells breaking ancient social contracts to serve self-replication rather than the collective organism.

6. AI Revolution in Biomedical Research (38:48–45:50)

• Explosion of data: AI (especially LLMs like OpenAI's GPT) now bridges gaps between data, evidence, and scientific meaning.
  • Lab innovation: Agentic AI models as "scientists in a box" that form hypotheses, interpret data, and suggest next experiments in hours.
• Quote: "Now, in three hours, we can get pictures and hypotheses of how all that data fits together in ways that I never could have done before." (41:20)
• Open-sourcing: Nolan's group plans to make their agentic AI tools public, seeing it as giving back to the scientific community. (46:04–47:23)

7. Commercialization and Academia’s Evolution (47:23–56:56)

• History of resistance: Describes initial academic pushback against commercialization at Stanford, which gradually shifted as companies spun off significant inventions.
• Balance: Stresses that commercialization makes innovations widely available and gives back to taxpayers, but clear rules must separate academic and business interests.

8. AI, Society, and Ethics (57:10–77:23)

• Real-world impact: AI has already transformed lab structure and drug development, enabling new targets and treatments (57:10–60:21).
• Societal prospects: Discussion about AI’s potential to create a post-scarcity society (62:34–65:12) and expose corruption, but also the risks of automation displacing workers (69:51–70:16).
• Political analogy: Notes China’s advantage in having leaders with technical backgrounds, compared to U.S. leaders who are mostly lawyers.

9. UAPs, UFOs, and Anomalous Materials—A Scientific Approach (78:24–148:11)

• How Nolan got involved:
  • Early involvement stemmed from the Atacama Mummy case, disproving ET claims via rigorous DNA testing and catching the attention of U.S. government operatives (81:44–87:29).
  • Became involved in analyzing anomalous medical cases (e.g., Havana Syndrome) and physical artifacts thought related to UAPs.
• Investigation principles: Emphasizes collecting granular, atomic-level data on anomalous samples from events like Ubatuba (Brazil) and Council Bluffs (Iowa), finding "off-the-curve" isotope ratios and alloy structures.
  • Quote: "So the chance of getting that number correct on three things is low, to put mildly. But to say that you had exposed these things to that kind of a neutron source means something interesting." (107:34)
• Scientific attitude: Open-minded but demands extraordinary and reproducible evidence before accepting claims of non-human origin.
  • Quote: "I have not yet been given anything which I could definitively say, this is not something a human might have been able to make, might be difficult, but not impossible yet." (142:51)
• Material anomalies:
  • Describes peer-reviewed studies of anomalous alloys that cannot be easily explained with contemporary or historic industrial capabilities.
  • Discusses the magnesium isotope ratios and atomic layering beyond human fabrication ability in the 1950s–1970s (138:49–142:51).

10. The Importance of Transparency and methodical science (121:09–133:39)

• Skepticism on ancient mummies: Urges that controversial findings (e.g., tridactyl mummies) need methodical, peer-reviewed, and regionally respectful investigation—without media circus.
  • Quote: "If they're gonna do it right, they need to sequester the stuff away, bring in the right people with sufficient resources and get rid of the cameras." (129:18)
• Peer review role: Key is to ensure methods are robust and transparent, not just conclusions.

11. The Big Picture: AI, Evolution, and UAP Implications (133:39–end)

• Breakaway civilizations: Entertains, but does not endorse, the idea that some UAPs might represent a breakaway technological lineage, akin to how we differ from chimps—current evidence is insufficient.
• Societal change & Disclosure: Advocates for more openness to stimulate American scientific engagement and for a public/private partnership model for UAP research.
• The future: Suggests that AI's integration into our lives may mirror the imagined interfaces of 'aliens'—and that a true understanding of anomalous materials will require new instrumentation and collaborative, rigorous science.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the complexity of life:
  "There's nothing that inspires more awe in me than knowing the complexity of the cell and... knowing that underneath that is a universe with particles, et cetera, that enabled something like us to exist. I just sit in awe of that." (32:11)
• On scientific discovery:
  "The goal of science or scientists is to be right today, even wrong today, but righter tomorrow." (35:17)
• On AI and science:
  "We can give it the raw data and… say, hey, make sense of this and turn it into a network." (41:00)
• On commercialization:
  "I'm totally unapologetic about that, even though that got me in a lot of trouble at Stanford in the early days when making money was commercialization was evil." (46:09)
• On the Ubatuba magnesium analysis:
  "The ratios that we have could have been generated from normal magnesium ratios if you exposed normal magnesium ratios to a neutron source for 900 years at the level of an atomic bomb, every few seconds…" (107:34)
• On skepticism and advocacy:
  "I don't believe in anything. I believe in the data and the evidence." (107:03)
• On AI’s societal future:
  "I welcome the day of our AI overlords running the government rather than... in an unbiased way." (62:22)

Important Timestamps

• Garry Nolan’s background and lab innovations: 00:12–01:17, 10:23–11:26
• Personal medical story (melanoma, kidney cancer): 02:21–04:10, 25:34–26:01
• On immunotherapy and cancer evolution: 03:02–04:10
• AI as research revolution & agentic AIs: 38:48–45:50
• Open sourcing scientific AI tools: 46:04–47:23
• Material analysis of UAP samples: 106:52–118:52
• Peer-reviewed UAP research and alloys: 138:49–142:51
• Discussion of ancient and tridactyl mummies: 122:37–129:18
• Final thoughts on AI, scientific openness, and the importance of evidence-based inquiry: 162:16–end

Tone & Style

• Nolan is careful, precise, and insistent on rigor—willing to speculate but always separates personal belief from scientific evidence.
• Rogan brings infectious curiosity, skepticism, and humor, ensuring complex ideas are broken down for a general audience.

For New Listeners

This episode delivers an accessible exploration of some of the world’s most speculative topics—biomedical AI, the search for technological anomalies, and the UFO/UAP debate—but always through the lens of hard scientific inquiry. If you’re interested in frontier science, advanced technology, and the interface between skepticism and open-minded investigation, it’s a must-listen.

For citations, always refer to timestamp in the transcript (MM:SS), and consult peer-reviewed papers mentioned by Dr. Nolan for more technical details.