#2378 - Charlie Sheen

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2378 – Charlie Sheen

Date: September 11, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan (absent, replaced by guest host Dan Cummins)
Guest: Charlie Sheen
Description: Actor Charlie Sheen joins guest host Dan Cummins for a candid, wide-ranging conversation about fame, addiction, Hollywood pressures, memory, redemption, government conspiracies, and much more.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Charlie Sheen’s tumultuous journey through superstardom, public meltdowns, addiction, the challenge of getting sober, and what it means to reclaim your life and reputation after very public self-destruction. The conversation is intimate, surprisingly philosophical, and veers from showbiz stories to deep dives into memory, government conspiracies, the mechanics of live sitcoms, celebrity culture, and reflections on current political violence.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Pressures and Surrealism of Fame

• Dealing with Paparazzi and Public Appearances: Both speakers recount their strategies to avoid the red carpet chaos and the artificial, stressful atmosphere that comes with it.
  • Charlie Sheen: "They stopped showing me where the back door was because I support a similar entrance thing." (01:03)
  • The experience of being constantly yelled at by photographers is likened to a modern "perp walk" or a kind of "mental illness exhibition." (03:22)
• Celebrity Insularity: Discussion about why celebrities tend to hang out together—because only they can understand the "alien world" of fame.
  • Dan Cummins: "Why do celebrities just hang out with each other? Well, because to them, they're the only people that are normal." (17:50)

2. Charlie's Public Meltdown and "Tiger Blood" Era

• The Spectacle and Reinforcement of Downfall: Sheen reflects on the media circus around his “tiger blood” era and how society’s embrace of his mania made recovery harder.
  • Charlie Sheen: "It was... the worst kind of reinforcement. It was like unintentionally or otherwise celebrating a guy's demise." (07:11)
• Self-awareness on Addiction & Behavior: Sheen analyzes his past with remarkable candor, acknowledging not only substance abuse but also the bullying dynamic he fell into.
  • Charlie Sheen: "In some way, I was being a bully… I've never been that guy." (08:43)
  • Sheen on his rage: "When you finally get some distance from something… you start to realize... it was about all the stuff in my personal life." (13:00)
• Resolution with Chuck Lorre: Sheen reveals he made amends with Chuck Lorre (creator of Two and a Half Men)—even working together again, which helped heal old wounds. (16:04)

3. Memory, Truth, and Self-Understanding

• The Unreliability of Memory: Both discuss how their memories are more like “blurry snapshots” than clear recollections, and how narratives and false memories take root.
  • Dan Cummins: "My memories of my whole life are like a series of blurry snapshots." (19:36)
  • Charlie Sheen: "Is it a story someone told me? Is it me in that moment? Or is it a creased photo I saw on an old album in the 70s or 80s?" (19:51)
• False Memories and Testimony: They reference the Unabomber witness and how traumatic events often lead to deeply unreliable evidence. (21:38–24:00)

4. Addiction, Sobriety, and Recovery

• Path to Sobriety: Sheen shares a raw account of his decision to quit drinking—sparked by a moment of clarity when he realized his daughter was quietly questioning why her dad couldn't drive.
  • Charlie Sheen: "That got... complicated... what am I doing?" (92:29)
• Rebuilding Life: He credits his sobriety (nearly 8 years at the time of recording) for repairing his relationship with his children and being able to launch meaningful creative projects (memoir and documentary).
  • Charlie Sheen: "As soon as I quit drinking, all my kids started showing up again." (82:17)
• Sheen on AA: He is open about having tried AA for 21 years, but ultimately found that a sponsor/group wasn’t his path—it had to come from within.
  • Charlie Sheen: "It's hard to ask for help when somebody else has raised your hand for you.” (86:42)
• Candid Drug Stories: The conversation is honest about the appeal and dangers of drugs, with Sheen (and a segment about Hunter Biden) describing how some experiences are unforgettable but ultimately ruinous.
  • Charlie Sheen: "[Smoking crack with a blowjob] That hasn't been topped." (98:15)
  • Dan: "The reason why people do it is because it's fun. Like, it can ruin your life, but it's also really fun." (97:44)

5. Hollywood, Sitcoms, and Showbiz Mechanics

• Sitcom Production: Sheen describes the challenges of filming Two and a Half Men, balancing work and addiction, and the burnout that set in when the work became purely for the money rather than passion.
  • Charlie Sheen: "I was making $54,000 an hour. That's pre taxes." (131:06)
• The Anger Management Show: Sheen discusses his follow-up sitcom, the "1090" contract structure, and how old burnout feelings returned when he was working purely to prove a point to detractors. (132:03)
• Memories of Legends: Stories include run-ins and relationships with Rodney Dangerfield, Quincy Jones, and others.

6. Growing Up Sheen – Hollywood Royalty and War Films

• Apocalypse Now Set: Sheen’s childhood around the filming of Apocalypse Now, seeing prosthetics, the scope of production, and how that shaped his fascination with film.
  • Charlie Sheen: “You visit a place like that and… you didn't give a fuck about water sports or fish or anything."
• From Apocalypse Now to Platoon: The odd symmetry of acting in two of the greatest war movies, echoing not only his father but also a generational journey.

7. Deep Dives into Conspiracies and American History

• JFK Assassination: The hosts dissect various theories, discuss the Zapruder film, and reference authors and documentarians. (34:34–62:01)
• CIA, MK Ultra, and Charles Manson: Fascination with Tom O’Neill’s book CHAOS, speculation about covert government operations, and analysis of how the Manson murders were, arguably, a social engineering project.
  • Dan Cummins: "They stopped what was probably one of the most beautiful cultural shifts in this country's history..." (46:47)
• Reflection on Paranoia and the Overabundance of Conspiracies: They discuss how legitimate conspiracy research is discredited by “noise” from bots/false theories and how this dynamic is manipulated. (73:08–75:14)

8. Reflections on Current Events and Political Violence

• The Assassination of Charlie Kirk: The episode pivots late to breaking news: the shooting death of activist Charlie Kirk.
  • Both are disturbed at the polarization and celebrations of violence, warning about what this means for discourse and the future of public debate.
  • Dan Cummins: “This is horrible. No one that has different opinions. No one deserves that.” (157:44)
• On Social Media Manipulation: Warnings about bots, foreign governments inflaming U.S. tensions, and how current days are laden with deliberate division.
  • Dan Cummins: "A lot of it is highlighted by bots. ...a giant ton of that is foreign governments who are running these bot farms.” (165:20)

9. The Redemptive Arc and Final Reflections

• Reset, Not Comeback: Sheen sees his recent work (book, documentary, sobriety) not as a comeback but a full reset.
  • Charlie Sheen: "I'm not looking at this as a comeback... It's a reset." (83:54)
• Physical Health and Routine: Concludes with lighter health talk—saunas, Bikram yoga, self-discipline—linking back to mental health and happiness.
• Camaraderie and Legacy: The conversation closes on the importance of survival, humor, and the stories that survive—whether Rodney Dangerfield’s elevator wisdom, or Quincy Jones workshopping Thriller during hot yoga.

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Notable Quotes

• "It was the worst kind of reinforcement. It was like... celebrating a guy's demise." – Charlie Sheen on public response to his meltdown (07:11)
• "I don't know if I was the conductor, if I was riding the caboose, or both simultaneously." – Charlie Sheen on losing control of his life (07:38)
• "As soon as I quit drinking, all my kids started showing up again..." – Charlie Sheen on family and sobriety (82:17)
• "It's hard to ask for help when somebody else has raised your hand for you." – Charlie Sheen on interventions and AA (86:42)
• "Why do celebrities just hang out with each other? Well, because to them, they're the only people that are normal." – Dan Cummins (17:50)
• "We're going to talk about it till the cows come home." – Dan Cummins, on conspiracy theories’ staying power (60:24)
• "That's the problem... The problem is..." – Both Sheen and Cummins, repeatedly, on addiction, conspiracies, and public life
• "Today's sober. Sober, yeah." – Sheen, on the difference between 'trying' and real sobriety (146:46)
• "This is horrible. No one that has different opinions. No one deserves that." – Dan Cummins, on the killing of Charlie Kirk (157:44)
• "How do we wrap this up on a positive note?" – Charlie Sheen (167:24)
• "Sobriety suits you. Really does. You look really healthy." – Dan Cummins (168:16)
• "I took a page out of your book... I use a sauna blanket." – Sheen to Cummins, on new routines and health (169:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Topic | |---|---| | 00:01–03:37 | Red carpets, avoiding fake Hollywood events, celebrity discomfort | | 06:08–09:01 | The "Tiger Blood" era, public meltdown, feeling reinforced in self-destruction | | 13:00–16:30 | Rage, relationships, bullying, Two and a Half Men fallout | | 19:36–24:32 | Memory, false recollection, eyewitness evidence failures | | 34:34–62:01 | JFK assassination, conspiracy theories, the Zapruder film | | 73:08–75:14 | Conspiracies, misinformation, QAnon | | 77:31–84:31 | Resetting life, comeback vs. reset, result of sobriety | | 86:42–88:22 | Addiction interventions, doing it 'for yourself', relapse stories | | 92:29–97:19 | The moment Sheen decided to quit drinking, structure of real change | | 131:06–134:44 | Burnout on Two and a Half Men, Anger Management sitcom, chasing money vs. chasing meaning | | 149:52–152:24 | The chaos of the live tour, looney thrown in Canada, being reminded not everyone is rooting for him | | 152:47–165:15 | Breaking news: Charlie Kirk assassination, press and social reaction, polarization | | 169:12–174:23 | Wellness routines, Bikram yoga, Quincy Jones and Thriller | | 167:24–174:29 | Wrapping up, final thoughts on the darkness of the times and the hope found in small routines, humor, and human connection |

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a standout for its breadth and vulnerability. Charlie Sheen, at once reflective and dryly hilarious, examines his public trainwreck, what it means to be “winning,” the seduction and trap of fame, the long climb to real sobriety, and how broken systems—personal, showbiz, political—keep cycling until people (sometimes) break through. The podcast is peppered with showbiz lore, gossipy asides, insights into mental health, and trenchant warnings about both personal and national division. Both Sheen and Cummins exhibit wit and depth, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the very real human behind the tabloid stories.

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Transcript

[Charlie Sheen]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Dan Cummins]

Great to finally meet you, man.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's great to meet you. It's a trip and, and, you know, walking in and I'm thinking, is there. How is it possible that our paths didn't cross all those years? I mean, it's. It's. It's conceivable we were in the same venue or the same building or at the same party or at least something.

[Dan Cummins]

I kind of avoided parties. I avoid basically everything. I avoided parties. I avoided premieres. Any. Anything where there's a red carpet. Like, even if I was in a movie, I wouldn't go on the red carpet. I'd go into the back door.

[Charlie Sheen]

Seriously?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. I don't like it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

I don't like all that fucking. Look over here, look over here. That is just too fake for me. It just. Whatever allergy I have to that flares and I'm like, I'm going in through the back door. Fuck this.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, no, I don't. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. They. They stopped showing me where the back door was because I support a similar entrance thing.

[Dan Cummins]

It's just too weird.

[Charlie Sheen]

But it's that. It's. Look over here, look over here. It's that thing. Something happens in that moment.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

I think it's like, it's. It brings you as close to possibly sterilization as you can get without, you know, have surgery.

[Dan Cummins]

I think it's bad for you. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's like radiation.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Like you could take a little bit of it, but, you know, you don't want to be working the X ray machine your whole life.

[Charlie Sheen]

No. No. And then there's always that one lady who keeps calling you back to her.

[Dan Cummins]

Charlie, Charlie.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right, Far left, far left, far left. Yeah. And you've looked at her like seven times already. And then I'm out there thinking, if it took me this many takes to get a scene right, nobody would ever hire me. Yeah, you wouldn't get past the first. The first day.

[Dan Cummins]

Well, they want to get a million pictures just to get that perfect one where there's a little bit of side eye to you. Just a little something.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Little purse of the lips.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's the one responding to something.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, that's the one.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. But then they chew. Which one do they always choose? The one that's absolute dog shit. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

The one with your mouth open.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

Or your eyes Closed.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

What I really don't like is the people who like it. Not that I don't like them, is that I don't want to ever see that in myself. And so when I'd be around them, I would just go, oh, I got to get out of here.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Freak me out. The trappings, the trails.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, is there. Because it's feels like that system's been in place for over 100 years. Right. Is there another way to do it?

[Dan Cummins]

Probably not. People like it. You know, photographers like it. The press likes it. It's a big thing. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of lights flashing. It seems legit.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

I just. I can never feel relaxed when everybody's yelling. Right. You know, Totally unnatural. It's completely unnatural.

[Dan Cummins]

The only way that would be happening in real life is if, like, you were, you know, like you were being paraded in front of a bunch of people. Jim, there he is. Look over here. You know, it's odd. It's very odd.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It's almost. It's a form of a perp walk, isn't it?

[Dan Cummins]

A little bit of a perp walk and just a little bit of a mental illness exhibition.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

You know?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. I just had it for the first time, like, last. It would have been last Thursday.

[Dan Cummins]

The first time ever.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, for the first time in, like, a long time, in like, maybe over a decade. At the Netflix premiere for the doc. Yeah. And it was. It was kind of cool. Like the first, you know, 34 seconds, I was like, okay, I remember this. And then it was like, I fucking remember this. Wow. Damn. And then I, like, I'm in the right. The sun just beating right on my floor, and it's just. I could feel myself start to sweat. Now I'm questioning the whole outfit, you know, the underwear choice, all of it. It's just like every decision I. Leading up to that was completely wrong.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And it's all being documented, you know, it's so odd.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. It's really funny. At the. When I. When you first walked into the studio, you brought up a tweet that I had sent in 2011. I think this is when you were going crazy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And I think this is also when my friend Russell Peters was doing those tours with you.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, that's right.

[Dan Cummins]

I need to get Charlie Sheen on my podcast. I know it's a long shot, but a boy could dream. But everybody knows him. Help me hook it up. Well, here we are, 14 years later.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, it takes when it takes, right?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. It's funny because back then, I don't think I had no guests. I think I had. Anthony Bourdain was the only, like, real guest that I had had serious time. Yeah, he was 2011 as well.

[Charlie Sheen]

And how many shows had you done by then?

[Dan Cummins]

Not that many by then. I don't know.

[Charlie Sheen]

So were you just doing solo shows, just, like, covering topics?

[Dan Cummins]

I would do it mostly with my friends, mostly with other comics.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

We just sit and talk shit. And then.

[Charlie Sheen]

Your house?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, I was at my house back then.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay, so it looked nothing like this.

[Dan Cummins]

No, no, no. It slowly had to get out. It's like I had too many weirdos that I had to bring by my house. And I have young kids at the time. They're really young. I was like, this is just too strange. Bring these weirdos.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, sure.

[Dan Cummins]

House. And, you know, it was just too odd. I was like, maybe some people shouldn't know exactly where.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

I sleep.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right? Right. Yeah. And it's interesting because driving here, I was buried in my phone, just, you know, for. For the right reasons. So I have no idea where we are.

[Dan Cummins]

Good.

[Charlie Sheen]

So it was kind of like the version of being blindfolded with a sack over my head, you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. That's probably how we should do it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Can you imagine then, like, I'm the guy they're blaming for introducing this.

[Dan Cummins]

Just put everybody in a blindfold and put them in the back of an suv, drive to an undisclosed location, and.

[Charlie Sheen]

Make the guy drive a few circles around in, like, some, you know, neighborhood. Right over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

But we did it. We're here. Those things that you did with Russell Peters were so fascinating. It was. The whole thing was so fascinating. I watched the Netflix thing. I watched the first episode, and the whole experience of watching the guy from Platoon, the guy that everybody knows is like this gigantic, super cool movie star hot shots. All these different things to watch. You just not just go off the rails with drugs, but, like, be super open about it. You, like the first guy super open about it, you know, and everybody just embraced it. Instead of it being like, oh, Charlie Sheen's doing drugs. That's so sad. It was like, we love him.

[Charlie Sheen]

Keep going.

[Dan Cummins]

It was kind of crazy, all the Tiger Blood stuff and winning. Everybody was saying winning all the time. And it.

[Charlie Sheen]

It. It was.

[Dan Cummins]

What was that like for you? Was that, like, was it the worst kind of reinforcement or what? Or did it let you, like, were you surprised by it?

[Charlie Sheen]

That's a great way to describe It. It was. It is, yeah. The worst kind of reinforcement. Yeah. It was like unintentionally or otherwise celebrating a guy's demise.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, and I guess the train wreck was so spectacular that there was such a spectacle that. That they couldn't turn away, but they were also being invited in to follow it down the tracks.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, and. And somebody asked me about it and I, you know, I don't know if I was the conductor, if I was riding the caboose, or both simultaneously. It was a trip because thinking back on it, it's, you know, some of it just kind of exists in, in just Polaroid snapshots that kind of drift past through the mist. You know, other. Other moments are in high def, but kind of seen through a tunnel vision like in it. And, and it's. It was. There was an energy or it was. There was an energy I tapped into that felt like I was playing a role, but I couldn't figure out if, you know, what the move, what the plot was, who my co stars were, where somebody, you know, somebody show up with like a page one rewrite.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's what we fucking need, you know, and it got away from me. And had it not been encouraged, I think it could have been curtailed. It could have been shut down a lot sooner.

[Dan Cummins]

You become kind of captured to the image.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes. And there was something that. And just recently something I stumbled onto. It's. I was. In some way, I was being a bully. It had a bullying kind of energy about it, you know, And I've never been that guy.

[Dan Cummins]

How so? How so?

[Charlie Sheen]

The way I was attacking people and the way I was challenging people. I was a tough guy on the block and had all these soldiers. I had this cold cadre behind me and it was like, you know, inviting people into the ring. I've never been in the ring. What are we doing? You know, you're on coke.

[Dan Cummins]

Total cocaine behavior.

[Charlie Sheen]

Among other things.

[Dan Cummins]

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[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, and I think there was a whole testosterone component as well that was just out of control because there's, you know, what do they recommend, like a quarter size dollop and like every other day and. No, there's a line in the book where I say I was slathering that that shit on like a fucking Pons commercial.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, so you're using the cream.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is hard to measure.

[Dan Cummins]

It's not just hard to measure, it gets on other people. Oh, I read this story about this guy who is on TRT cream and his child started like showing signs of premature development.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh.

[Dan Cummins]

And they realized that this kid's testosterone level was through the roof because it's through the dermis. Right. It's through the skin. So he's getting it on his arms and then he's hugging his child and the kid is getting juiced.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like what were the kids numbers? Do we know?

[Dan Cummins]

We don't know.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like in the 70s.

[Dan Cummins]

I don't think they released that but they, they said that it probably permanently affected the kids development.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, wow. Because this kid is like experiencing puberty at three. You know you're getting bombarded with testosterone.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

While your dad is holding you.

[Charlie Sheen]

Insane. Insane. Is that part of the reason they recommend like an inner thigh application, I.

[Dan Cummins]

Guess then the only person would get it is the person you're having sex with.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Or your horse.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's probably good for the horse. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

So there was testosterone and cocaine together at the same time. That's. That sounds like a combination of hubris.

[Charlie Sheen]

And a lot of rage.

[Dan Cummins]

And a lot of rage.

[Charlie Sheen]

A lot of rage. But the rage, I think it's, it's interesting because when you finally get some distance from something, you start to realize that it wasn't really so much about what you said. It was about in the moment. And I'm really realizing it wasn't about the job, wasn't about Chuck. It was about all the stuff in my personal life. It was about trying to just be a certain guy at work, be a certain guy at home, and then just never having the time to be a certain guy with me. And I just couldn't find any place to find any refuge or solace or any type of. Just a moment to breathe, just to decompress, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

That's so important.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And I, There was a. It's not in the book, because I can't really. I don't remember it well enough to put it in the book. And that was kind of how I decided what's in there and what's not right or if something just isn't true. It's not in the book. And so but it, you know, I was, I was, I was trying to just kind of, you know, like, you know, I, I, I, I went through two divorces and, and had four children during, during that run of eight years, you know, and so that's crazy. It's insane. Yeah. And, and they both, you know, they, they fell apart for, for myriad reasons and whatever. And, and, but there wasn't time to heal the last one before the next one.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Kicked off. And, but that's all on me, you know what I'm saying? That's all. I mean, making those decisions.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's one of the through lines in the book, is that it, like, really comes down to really being all about choices, you know, but then. Yeah. And, and, but it's just for it to be just talking about the bullying stuff, you know, for it to be so, so directed at a guy who, let's, like, if you really break it down, what did he really do? To me, he created this environment with the dream character in an amazing show. So people tell me, right. That, that that was, you know, the toast of the town. Right. And, and all he asked for me was just like, you know, just show up, be responsible, know your lines, hit your marks, do your fucking job. You know that. Those were the only demands, essentially, the stuff I told him before I took the job that I was going to do. So. And then I turn it into that. You know, it's really difficult to really look back on that and figure out why it got that far, how it got that far.

[Dan Cummins]

I can help you out.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Testosterone.

[Charlie Sheen]

Testosterone and cocaine. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Having all kinds of conversations with people in your head that'll tell you exactly what's on going. What you're doing is correct.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, sorry.

[Dan Cummins]

Did you ever talk to Chuck? Did you ever, like. Sorry.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, no, it was. Yeah, no, that was. I was really grateful we were able to do that.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, that's nice.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, I was carrying that around for too long.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

He hired me for a show he had a few years ago called Bookie with Sebastian Maniscalco. Right?

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Charlie Sheen]

So I came in and did. I played myself, did a few scenes, did a cameo, you know, did some fun stuff, and just back on a set with Chuck and. And it was like. It was. It just felt like it. Like it. Like it. Like it did in the. In the early part.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, that's. Well, good on him for not holding a grudge, too.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, that's.

[Dan Cummins]

That's awesome.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sorry I lost that thought earlier.

[Dan Cummins]

No, no, it's complicated thing to think about, like, why did I go off the rails? You know, it's like. And it's very reasonable. Here's the thing. I don't think anybody but Charlie Sheen knows what it's like to be Charlie Sheen. And in my estimation, there are a scant few people that have become massive superstars at a young age and came through it sane. I don't know anybody. Everybody. I mean, I know people that have regained equilibrium and got their footing back and now they're on the right track and. But no one gets through without a hiccup. Everyone kind of goes crazy because you're living in this completely alien world that no one can help you navigate, even.

[Charlie Sheen]

If you've watched the people closest to you go through it most of your life. And, like, just like, right over there.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like in the. In the next room.

[Dan Cummins]

Right, right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, or in the same room.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. And a bunch of your friends.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

It doesn't matter.

[Charlie Sheen]

It doesn't matter.

[Dan Cummins]

Bananas. It's still an alien world that you live in that no one that you run into during the day except the people like that can understand.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Which is like, people are always like, why do celebrities just hang out with each other? Well, because to them, they're the only people that are normal.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

They're the only people that, like, I get it. I can't go to the supermarket either. I get it. I. Yeah. I get TMZ at the airport as well.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

It's like, it's normal for them because everybody else is like, whoa, it's Charlie Sheen. And they're just captivated. Like, you kind of need to be around people that understand what that life is like. But the problem is they're all going crazy too, right?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a. It's a great support group to a degree, you know, saying, I think you can rely on them for the things that you have in common.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

But maybe take the more complicated shit just. Just right across the street. Yeah, yeah. To the experts. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You can't rely on them for everything.

[Charlie Sheen]

No.

[Dan Cummins]

Because they're going through it, too.

[Charlie Sheen]

Can I just get a tissue?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, sure, sure. Jimmy, you got a box?

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Sorry.

[Dan Cummins]

No worries. Getting sweaty. Is it hot in here? Turn the AC on.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, I'll tell you exactly what happened. I got. I lost that thought. And then I tried to cover, and I realized this is. He's not buying this. And then I started sweating, and I started sweating, so I'm just gonna lose.

[Dan Cummins]

It's normal, man. Just say you lost your thought. It's all good. Yeah, it happens all the time. It happens to me, too.

[Charlie Sheen]

Why is that, though? Is our brain already trying to figure out the next thing that's going to attach to it, and by doing so, it took that, the main thing, and just dismissed it?

[Dan Cummins]

Perhaps.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

It's also. Brains are just not that good, huh? You know, they're pretty good compared to chimpanzees and dogs and stuff like that, but, you know, they have a lot of issues.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Just like we were talking about your memories. Like, my. My memories of my whole life are like a series of blurry snapshots that I can go, oh, yeah, then we went there. Oh, yeah, that happened, right? Oh, yeah. There's very few memories that I have that are like, rock solid memories.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right. Yeah, I totally get that. And there's a little thing in the book where I talk about. Memories are tricky. And. Is it the. Is it a story someone told me? Is it. Is it. Is it me in that moment? Or is it a creased photo I saw on an old album in the 70s or 80s, was the memory given to me or did I create it? Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. And there's also the real possibility that you have false memories. And people do that all the time. And they've even shown that they can introduce memories into people's minds and then with enough sort of encouragement or revisiting it, that person will accept it as a pure memory actually happened to them. Yeah. And they'll, they'll talk about it like outside of that, and they'll have no knowledge that it was a false memory.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Cuz it's just not a good system. It's a system designed to keep you away from scary things. Like there's the wolf. Oh, get away from the wolf. You know, wolves are bad. I remember.

[Charlie Sheen]

I remember. Wolves are bad.

[Dan Cummins]

That's the spider. That's poison. Get away from that spider. That spider is poison. But like dayto day, everyday normal. It's like how much of a memory does it really need to keep? It's just your brain's just not that good.

[Charlie Sheen]

And then, and then even. And then. So do certain, certain memories then get overlaid with a newer version of that? Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. They get narratives and you start repeating the memory and your memory becomes of you repeating the memory.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

So it's like you don't even really have the memory anymore. You have. You know how to say it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. Didn't that happen with, with that one witness?

[Dan Cummins]

Did it with a Unabomber witness?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

Interesting.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Because that's why the first composite that was put out really ultimately wound up looking nothing like the actual guy.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, interesting.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, there was a thing that. Yeah, there was a thing where her memory was corrupted by a different description from somebody else.

[Dan Cummins]

This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. It is not easy finding a snack that's healthy and tastes good. But that's where Paleo Valley's 100 grass fed beef sticks come in. You might be shocked to find out that most of the other leading brands you might grab at Costco use things like citric acid, lactic acid, and even black mold as preservatives. But not Paleo Valley. They use old world methods of fermenting their sticks so that they're shelf stable without using chemicals or questionable ingredients. Fermentation is also good for your gut. Did I mention these guys have over 55 million beef sticks sold? So yeah, a lot of people are into them. And if you're not, no worries because they offer a 60 day money back guarantee. Go to paleovalley.com and use the code ROGAN to get 20 off or find them on Amazon, give them a shot, and you'll see why everybody's hooked up. Well, there's also the factor that the Unabomber was such a traumatic event that this person was probably super freaked out, which is when your memory is the worst.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. That's why eyewitness accounts of, like, murders and chaos. They're really bad, Right? They're really bad. Very unreliable.

[Charlie Sheen]

There's some really, really awful percentage about. Even when they wind up in a courtroom.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like the. Like the determining. Yeah. Like the final nail from the person. That guy. That it's like, sometimes it's as high as, like, 60%. That they're just wrong.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. And then they'll convince themselves that they're right because they've already said it. So then the ego gets involved, and then, you know, it's just. Traumatic events leave you. You're in a high state of anxiety and you're not thinking clearly. You're freaked out. And, you know, like, when. When they have events like. Like, say, like 9, 11. If you were anywhere near that and you saw, like, people jump off the buildings and. And fall to their deaths, or like, your memories of that are probably really clear because it was crazy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

But your memories of people that you might have saw that were running away, or maybe you saw a guy in a van and he looked fishy, or maybe this or maybe that. It's like. And then a few days go by, and you. You probably haven't slept well. You're all freaked out. Your memory's probably a mess. It's probably news now. And then there's other people's eyewitness accounts, and. And, you know, you don't know what the happened.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

You, you know, like, you see someone die, see someone jump off a building. You don't remember that, but there's some stuff that. It's just our. You know, this is one of the scariest things about transhumanism is that it's really appealing in the idea that they give you a little hard drive in your brain. And now, from now on, every time you want a memory, you can go just like, you know, you look on your phone like your iPhone on this day in 2017, you're like, oh, look at us. That's cool. You're going to be able to do that in your brain, you know, and the way that we're going to buy into it is because our memory sucks.

[Charlie Sheen]

Because that's how they're going to sell it to Us.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Do mean, do you remember your phone number when you were a kid?

[Charlie Sheen]

No, but I remember my address because it rhymed.

[Dan Cummins]

That's nice.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It was 7212 Birdview Avenue, Malibu.

[Dan Cummins]

You used to remember your phone number. What happened? That goes away because your memory sucks, right?

[Charlie Sheen]

I, I, I, I know my parents number because they still have a landline.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, they're still rocking the landline.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, they are. Yeah. And they have an answering machine.

[Dan Cummins]

Whoa.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. During dinner. They haven't really turned it.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh. Now people start talking in the background.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. But it's just part of it, part of the experience.

[Dan Cummins]

They're rocking a landline with an answer machine in 2025. That is. Yeah, it's probably the way to do it. I used to love the answer machine. Would you come home, the light would be flashing like, someone likes me, right? Somebody called.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It was cool. It's like you had a dog coming home to wait. Like to visit you when you came home.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like, oh, look, it's like induced Bigelow when it's like he's at his lowest point. The thing in the light is never blinking.

[Dan Cummins]

I forgot about that.

[Charlie Sheen]

You have no, no new messages.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, that was a wild time where you could get phone calls. That's the other thing is like, you got famous before the Internet too, which is a different world. It's a different world because there's not that many of you. There's way less famous people. There's way more famous people now. Yeah, you got famous, like super duper famous at 21 years old with no Internet trip out.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, I know.

[Dan Cummins]

How does anybody expect you to come out normal?

[Charlie Sheen]

Jesus Christ. And it's, and you try. You can't really even explain to someone that wasn't around during all that. You can't really explain what it felt like because they, they look at it as the things that were missing and, and there, there wasn't anything missing.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, it was about having to really be engaged in everything you were doing. You know, you had to show up to, to, to, to, you know, to gain, to, to get a, like you had to enter the building.

[Dan Cummins]

Right, Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, you had to go to, on a talk show, you had to attend to junket, you, you know what I'm saying? And you could. And nobody knew, nobody knew what the behind the scenes of your movie looked like until, you know, years later on the DVD feature or the VHS feature that they finally saw some of that stuff. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't All Access 24 7, 365 and for some people.

[Dan Cummins]

They can't leave it alone. They have to live stream during the day. They're live streaming from their trailer. They're live streaming in their car on the way home.

[Charlie Sheen]

They're like, yeah, what is that about?

[Dan Cummins]

They're nuts. They're just locked into this weird new world that we're living in.

[Charlie Sheen]

But is it. I mean, is it because there's genuinely people that are tuning in with enthusiasm that are looking forward to that live stream in the car ride home, or because the person. Or is it a combination?

[Dan Cummins]

I think it's those things. And it's also that thing that you said that you didn't ever get. They're scared of you didn't ever get alone.

[Charlie Sheen]

Time.

[Dan Cummins]

Just. Just time to decompress and think. Just be by yourself. No phone, no tv. Just sit on the couch and just like, catch your breath.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right?

[Dan Cummins]

And they don't want that. That's. They're scared of that. I like just constantly engaged with something.

[Charlie Sheen]

I like entire days of that.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, that's nice.

[Charlie Sheen]

Alone on the couch. Yeah. Watching tv. Nice.

[Dan Cummins]

It's nice to just shut off, right? It really is. It's all work, no play. Not good.

[Charlie Sheen]

Not good at all.

[Dan Cummins]

Not good. Bad for you. And bad for your work too, because it makes you just kind of. It gets dreary. You don't. You don't have the same enthusiasm for it anymore. You know, it's like you need discipline, but you also need enthusiasm.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know what I was gonna say earlier. Thanks. Okay. All right. The memory just, you know, dropped another token in the. In the. In the slot. Is that now. Now it's, you know, it doesn't even connect.

[Dan Cummins]

It doesn't. Let's find out.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, no, then I. I actually forgot it again. How about that? Is that nuts?

[Dan Cummins]

It's normal. It's normal. When you. When you first got platoon, did you have any idea, like, what the fuck was gonna happen?

[Charlie Sheen]

I didn't. I didn't.

[Dan Cummins]

For people today to understand how big that movie was, because it was. It was one of the very first realistic war movies. And I think very importantly, it was done by Oliver Stone, who was actually a veteran of the Vietnam War. You remembering what you wrote down? What you just.

[Charlie Sheen]

That piece. Yeah. I'm not gonna forget it again. Okay. Pardon.

[Dan Cummins]

Sorry, but that. It was. It was a different kind of war movie, you know?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It much in the lines of your dad's movie.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, and that. That was a very different kind of war. Movie as well.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Apocalypse From Here. Platoon, you know, Boots on the Ground. The script didn't read like it was going to be a masterpiece. The. The script read like it. Like a. Kind of like a docu drama sort of movie of the week. It didn't. Didn't read that script and say, oh, wow, okay, yeah, this is the one. People are gonna really. Wow. They're gonna worship this thing. It didn't. The dialogue was very clipped and very, very specific. It. It. You kind of never really knew where you were in the script, in the scene descriptions. You know, the script was so lean. I think it was, like barely a hundred pages. Really? Yeah. So. But I didn't realize sort of what. What we were doing until we were actually doing it. Usually I can read a scene and get a sense of, you know, what my responsibilities are going to be or how we're going to break it down or at least, you know, how. How I'm gonna see it on the screen. And I couldn't. I couldn't do that with Platoon, because all the terrain, all the scenes, everything kind of felt very similar, you know? Really? Yeah. And the original title was the Platoon. You think it's as big a hit if he keeps the duh? Yeah, I don't think it matters.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a great movie.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Great movie. It doesn't matter, but we started to feel.

[Charlie Sheen]

Feel it as. As we got deeper into it and. And. And Oliver did something brilliant where he. He decided to film it in continuity, like from page one, day one, all the way to the final day was the final page. And that. And that gave us a chance that, like, when something was finished, you were done with it and. And you didn't have to know how you were going to react or how you already reacted to something that hadn't happened yet.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

And when people died in the movie, they got sent home. They were just like, the next day they were just gone. I guess he wanted us to feel that sense of just someone gone, that lost, that sadness. I'm not saying that I would know how that felt in the real thing, but we bonded. Really. We were bonded in a way, because we were the only people that we had in the middle of that country, in the middle of that jungle, in the middle of that movie. So you really missed somebody when they were suddenly gone.

[Dan Cummins]

I would love to ask. I mean, I've had Oliver on a couple times, but I would love to ask him what it's like to make a movie about a war that he was starring in. And like, what kind of bizarre mental conflicts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, he didn't get into any of that stuff.

[Dan Cummins]

Not really. I mean, he talked a little bit about his experience in Vietnam, but I don't think we really talked about. Did we ever. We talk about the making of Platoon. We got so heavy into the JFK assassination, we hardly covered anything else.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, got it.

[Dan Cummins]

Especially the last time he was on. The last time he was on was when they were doing that Showtime JFK document. It was a Showtime thing, right, wasn't it?

[Charlie Sheen]

I think it was, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Where there was a multi part piece that he put together.

[Charlie Sheen]

Saw it. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

His recall is insane. It's insane.

[Charlie Sheen]

It is.

[Dan Cummins]

You have a conversation with him, he's pulling up dates. He's got no, but I mean, how old is Oliver at this point in time?

[Charlie Sheen]

Upper 70s. I just turned 60.

[Dan Cummins]

So if he was 78.

[Charlie Sheen]

He's 78.

[Dan Cummins]

78 years old. Rock solid memory. I mean, rock solid.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

The dude was just pulling up dates and names and Alan Dulles did this and. Wow, Harry. Well, it was just like the entire Warren Commission report, he's like citing different passages in it. It's bananas.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's deep. Yeah. Wow. Has he landed on like, what can he. Can he point to? Or is it. Is it.

[Dan Cummins]

Several factors can point to. But there is a lot of people that wanted him dead. And for sure. There was a lot of fuckery going on with the Warren Commission. For sure.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

There's a lot of nonsense with the autopsies. There's a lot of nonsense with the single bullet going through both him and Connally and leaving more bullet fragments in Connolly's wrist than that magic bullet was missing, the one they found. It's like the story's filled with.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And no one really knew how much it was until they had that video that they played of the Zapruder film on Geraldo Rivera show.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

When Dick Gregory came on and who was a comedian, which was pretty wild, came on and had the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Everybody sees Kennedy's head go back into the left and you look what happened.

[Charlie Sheen]

There and you immediately apply just simple common physics to it.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, especially anybody who's ever fired a weapon.

[Dan Cummins]

Also, it clearly looks like he got shot in the chest too. Like when he grabs his neck.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Clearly he got shot right there.

[Charlie Sheen]

And there's always that talk about doing a trach.

[Dan Cummins]

But you know, there's two different autopsies. There's the autopsy in Dallas. It says it's an entry wound. And then there's the autopsy in Bethesda, Maryland, that says it's tracheonomy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Two different autopsies.

[Charlie Sheen]

Make up your mind.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. And it also looks like by the time they got to Bethesda, they kind of glued his head back together again, or at least put the pieces back to take a photo of it. It's like more was missing from what they were talking about in Dallas than the Bethesda.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's the shot where the gloved hand is like. Looks like it's pointing.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

There's a great book called Best Evidence by David Lifton. And he was an accountant, and they. He had some sort of assignment involving the Warren Commission Report. And so what he decided to do is read the entire thing. And so in the reading of the entire thing, he finds so many contradictions, so many things that don't make any sense, that he starts becoming obsessed. And then he finds out how many people who are witnesses to the assassination wind up dying mysteriously.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Off the charts. Yeah, off the charts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like 95% of them.

[Dan Cummins]

All those people that were hanging around, like a giant ton of them.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Died in car accident. Weird. Fucking.

[Charlie Sheen]

Who was the guy in the train tower? Guy named Bowers. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Who is Bowers?

[Charlie Sheen]

He was the guy that saw Badge Man. He saw people behind the knoll. He saw the exchange of the rifle. He saw shit. He died. I think he had a heart attack on a train track. And then, of course, also got hit by the train. I could be wrong, but it was one of those type of things.

[Dan Cummins]

But of course. Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And then. But wasn't it. What was the. Who. Who's the guy who's standing at the. When the curb explodes, like near the underpass?

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah, that's the guy. That's the reason why they had to come up with the magic bullet theory.

[Charlie Sheen]

Is that Teague? No. What's his name?

[Dan Cummins]

I don't remember. Did he die weird?

[Charlie Sheen]

Probably.

[Dan Cummins]

I don't know if he died weird, but he was hit with a ricochet.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And because they knew that the overpass. That's why they had.

[Charlie Sheen]

That adds a bullet.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes, they had to add that and they were. Okay. How do we fix this?

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

What about you said only one guy did it. It's only three shots. So how do we come up with a reasonable excuse? And they came up with the magic bullet.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the. The. The architect of that was. Was Spectre.

[Dan Cummins]

I think it was our own Spectre. Yeah, I think it was his idea. The weight is over two pound for pound. Kings one epic showdown. Canelo versus Crawford going toe to toe at last. And DraftKings sportsbook is in your corner. From the opening bell to the final blow bell to the Judges Final Call, DraftKings has you covered with odds on knockouts, total rounds, method of victory and more. Never bet on a fight before easy open the app. Look for something simple like who will win and make your pick. And it's not just fight night Football is on tap this Sunday too. One app, all the action. New customers. This one's for you. Bet $5 to get $200 in bonus bets instantly when you sign up. Today, DraftKings Sportsbook is the home for fight fans. And download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use the Code Rogan. That's Code Rogan to get 200 in bonus bets. When you bet just five bucks in partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York. Call 877-8-HOPE and wire text HOPE and Y467 369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and resort in Kansas, 21 and over. Age eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Fees may apply in Illinois, Boyd and Ontario. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. For additional terms on responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio. They just bullshitted people. But back then you can get away with that, right? You know, it was pretty easy to just bullshit people.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you see all the additional cameras, like Babushka lady, for instance, right. And. And all that stuff just confiscated and never.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, well, they had the Zapruder film for a long time. I think Time Life had it and then somehow or another Dick Gregory got it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Was it ever released with missing frames? Wasn't there the jump cut when he goes behind the sign and then it jumps because they didn't they take out the fatal head hit at some point and then tried to sell that.

[Dan Cummins]

Perhaps they probably did at one point in time. But now obviously you could see the whole thing. And then it's also been AI enhanced. I don't know if you've seen the AI enhanced one.

[Charlie Sheen]

I haven't.

[Dan Cummins]

No of it's grisly.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's even more gruesome.

[Dan Cummins]

It's gruesome, Yeah. I mean, I think he was shot from multiple angles simultaneously. That's what I think. I think he was shot both from the back and from the front. And I Think Lee Harvey Oswald. If he wasn't involved, he certainly wasn't innocent.

[Charlie Sheen]

He.

[Dan Cummins]

He was probably the guy that they were going to frame it on.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

But I think he was in on the whole thing anyway. I think he killed a cop afterwards as well.

[Charlie Sheen]

Tippett. No. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever read that thing about. Because Tippetts nickname back at the precinct was jfk. Do you ever read this thing? Then they show the side by side of how much they really look like each other.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, really?

[Charlie Sheen]

So they're saying he was the body they used for the transfer when they flew with the empty coffin. You know all that stuff about. Yeah, it's. I mean, it is so there's so many just, you know, warrens to travel down and there's so many angles to explore.

[Dan Cummins]

There's too many. There's so many rabbit holes to go down.

[Charlie Sheen]

We were introduced to it as kids because dad played both Kennedys. So we were seeing documentaries at like, you know, I would have been 10 or 11. Emilio was 13 or 14. And so we've been involved in this thing for a lot longer than we should have been.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. We had access to this stuff and.

[Dan Cummins]

So was just nuts that no one was brought to justice. And we know for sure more people were involved than Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. There was more people involved and no one was brought to justice. And they got away with it. We don't want to think that they get away with things like killing the.

[Charlie Sheen]

President, but they did in broad daylight. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And blaming it on a lone gunman, a lone nut.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. Who they already had a full description and raption rundown and everything about printed.

[Dan Cummins]

Articles about him before it was even over.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And then the Jack Ruby thing where Jack Ruby goes completely insane in jail after he's visited by Jolly west, who is the head of MK Ultra, who is like routinely dosing people with acid.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Jolly west cooked Jack Ruby's brain in jail and just left him insane.

[Charlie Sheen]

He's the guy from. What's the book that.

[Dan Cummins]

It's Chaos.

[Charlie Sheen]

From Chaos. Yeah. I actually read Chaos before it got all the attention. Really? Yeah. Friend of mine gave it to me and I was. And I. All right, I'll read a couple pages. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay. This is.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, this is one of the best books.

[Charlie Sheen]

Different take.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

But I'm curious how you felt about the documentary they did about it.

[Dan Cummins]

I didn't watch it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

I. I thought it was gonna be too quick. 90 minutes I didn't think was like enough time. It's only 90 minutes. Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

I thought it was the first episode.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, you.

[Charlie Sheen]

So I watched it sort of like a data gathering thing that you usually do with the first episode and kind of just seeing where the. What the director's doing and what kind of stuff they're laying out early.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

So. And then when it ended and I didn't see that second episode with the timer. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Uh huh.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I was. Oh, that's. And I thought it was a complete. I thought it radically underserved the book.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Maybe they could try again. That needs to be like an eight part, two hour apiece series.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Because it's so nuts. The story is so nuts. Just the provable actual facts are so nuts that very likely Charles Manson was a CIA asset. Very likely. They had groomed him when he was in prison and taught him mind control techniques when people were high on acid, taught him how to be sober, but pretend he's on acid and how to interact with these people that. On acid and shape their mind and even get them to commit murder. All of which is fact.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, no, it's. I would say it's insane, but so much of it is, I don't want to say provable, but has enough supporting evidence to make a compelling case. And I love that the guy starts out just like just kind of a normal celebrity assignment for Premier magazine. Right. Yeah, I've been on that magazine. I had that cover twice. My story didn't wind up like that.

[Dan Cummins]

I think that it was story for a magazine and it was just about the anniversary of the murders.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

That's it.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's what it was. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, just give us a piece. You know, so people go, wow, crazy. 25 years later.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. Right? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And then he gets obsessed and he starts realizing, well, this guy was full of shit and that guy was corrupted. Oh my God, look at this. And hold on. Who's Jolly West? You know, like, what's MK Ultra? This is real. Freedom of Information Act. Get the documents. Oh my God. Operation Midnight Climax. The. The government was running whorehouses. They were running whorehouses and using two way mirrors and dosing johns and filming them. And this has to do with Manson, like what. What the was going on?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And then you realize that it was all a psyop to try to demonize the peace, love and stop war movement. And that what they really wanted to do was stop the anti war movement and do something to curb the cultural change that was happening. And so their strategy was to turn hippies into murderers.

[Charlie Sheen]

It kind of works.

[Dan Cummins]

It kind of works. Yeah, it kind of works.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. I mean, it's a long way to go, but I think it had the effect they were looking for.

[Dan Cummins]

Imagine if they didn't do that, like, what kind of cultural change would have taken place? Because if you think about what happened between 1950 and 1960, it's like the world becomes a different place in 10 years. Between 1960 and 1970 is like, what? This world is crazy. The music is crazy, the culture is crazy, the movies are nuts, Everything is wild. It's very psychedelic. And then Nixon comes along in 1970, passes this sweeping schedule. One act makes all mushrooms and LSD makes everything illegal. All to stop the Civil War, the civil rights movement, and the anti war movement at the same time when they're doing this Manson stuff. So it was a concerted effort across the board to stop the anti war movement and to stop the civil rights movement. They were like, we're losing control and power. And so, I mean, it was an evil thing to do. But you kind of gotta give them credit because it was pretty brilliant. Like, they. They actually pulled it off. You think of serial killer, you think of Manson, you think of the family. Oh, my God, these hippies are murderous. A bunch of murderous freaks on drugs, cutting women's babies out of their stomachs and writing pig on the wall. Like, this is nuts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And they brought the Beatles into it.

[Dan Cummins]

And our own goddamn government engineered it. They engineered. They stopped what was probably one of the most beautiful cultural shifts in this country's history that would have organically still.

[Charlie Sheen]

Kept evolving into other things that would have. Would have blossomed out of it.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, we probably would have rethought government. We probably would have, like, rethought the type of people that we want as leaders. We'd have rethought our involvement in foreign wars. There had been no support for it. We would have rethought what psychedelic drugs can do for you versus the bad aspects of them. We would have rethought everything. We would have. The music would have been a lot better. Music took a big dip.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, it did.

[Dan Cummins]

Music took a big dip after they got rid of the drugs that were good and brought in the coke.

[Charlie Sheen]

But people do point to the death of the 60s occurred up at Cielo Drive.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Yeah. It was effective.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

I mean, that. That completely demonized any peace, love and, you know, any of that kind of movement. Those people became a real problem now because you're now connected to Manson.

[Charlie Sheen]

It was instantly zero tolerance, like Overnight.

[Dan Cummins]

Kind of nuts. Yeah, kind of nuts. That it's. That it was really all engineered by the government. You know, it's really. That in itself, in and of itself, is a terrible crime. That they sort of engineered society to their benefit so that they could maintain control. And the way they did it is by getting a horrible con who had been in and out of jail his whole life and teaching him how to run a cult.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

A murderous cult.

[Charlie Sheen]

And setting up at a free clinic.

[Dan Cummins]

In the Haight where my wife's mom went. Oh, yes. My wife's mom was a hippie.

[Charlie Sheen]

You have a connection to this?

[Dan Cummins]

Yes, my wife's mom went. She was a hippie in Haight Ashbury, and she went to the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic.

[Charlie Sheen]

Treated at that clinic.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, that clinic didn't shut down until after Tom ONeills book came out. That clinic had been running for over.

[Charlie Sheen]

50 years, so it ran till, like, 20. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

When did it close? It closed shortly after that book came out.

[Charlie Sheen]

We're good. Let's get out of here. I could have gone there while I was reading the book.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes. The CIA was just running. Not for any treatment clinic.

[Charlie Sheen]

What a trip.

[Dan Cummins]

That is so nuts. And that clinic also connected to Jolly West. That clinic also connected to all sorts of other marijuana experience. San Francisco is where they were doing Operation Midnight Climax. That's where they had a brothel. These are the people that are supposed to be like, protect and serve. Look out for your best interest. Right, right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

These are creating Manson and completely shifting society and turning people into whatever the. We became in the 70s and the 80s. Yeah. The book came out June 25, 2019. Yeah. And the clinic closed July 2019.

[Charlie Sheen]

Seriously?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Like, we're. We got busted.

[Charlie Sheen]

That dude read the forward and was like, guys, we got a problem.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. They. That's probably how long it took them just to clear the building out.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

And try to figure out whether they're gonna kill Tom o'. Neill.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right. Has he been on the show?

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

What's he like? Is he.

[Dan Cummins]

He's great. He's great. He's actually my good friend, Greg Fitzsimmons. He was his neighbor in New York.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

When he first started working on this. And then he became his neighbor also in Venice. Like, he's been his neighbor for, like, 20 years. So Greg's followed him from this entire journey. And Greg had been telling me about it for years. I'm like, when's your friend gonna get that fucking book? Done. And then finally he says, tells me the whole story, how it took so long. What? He's like, you gotta have him on the book is insane. I'm like, let's go.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

So we had him on. And it was. First of all, I listened to the book first. Before I had him on. I listened to the audio version. I was like, this is nuts. This is nuts. If this is all true, this is fucking insane. And it's all true. So they really did engineer a murderous.

[Charlie Sheen]

Cult of hippies and almost used the clinic as a casting couch, as an audition process for which girls they thought would be the most moldable, vulnerable.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, crazy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, crazy.

[Dan Cummins]

The CIA was doing that. It's just.

[Charlie Sheen]

I thought they were supposed to just operate on foreign soil.

[Dan Cummins]

I know they were, but, you know.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wouldn'T it be great to manage your.

[Dan Cummins]

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[Charlie Sheen]

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[Dan Cummins]

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[Charlie Sheen]

Crypto trading is offered through an account.

[Dan Cummins]

With Robinhood Crypto llc. Robinhood crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

[Charlie Sheen]

Crypto held through Robinhood crypto is not.

[Dan Cummins]

FDIC insured or SIPC protected. Network fees may apply to crypto transfers. Crypto transfers may not be available to all customers investing involved, including loss of principal.

[Charlie Sheen]

Securities trading is offered through an account.

[Dan Cummins]

With Robinhood Financial, LLC member sipc, a registered broker dealer. Sometimes things get messy, but it's like they. You talk to, like, your average boomer who just watches cable news and reads the newspaper. They never believe this in a million years.

[Charlie Sheen]

And they'll hear us talking about it, thinking, come on, guys.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, you're out of your mind.

[Charlie Sheen]

But they also will never read the book.

[Dan Cummins]

No, never read the book. And then when things get proven, they never apologize.

[Charlie Sheen]

Imagine that.

[Dan Cummins]

Never apologize. I apologize for your baseless conspiracy theories that all turned out to be true.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Cause, you know, conspiracies are fucking real. Okay? This conspiracy theory pejorative that they really started foisting on the American public during the Kennedy assassination was for that very Reason they wanted to make it ridiculous.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's where the term was coined.

[Dan Cummins]

That's where the term became popularized. Apparently the term existed before that. We researched this. Right. Didn't we Google the original term of conspiracy theorists? It's quite a bit earlier, but it was never like a thing in the public zeitgeist. It became a thing during the Kennedy assassination because a lot of people were questioning it because it looked weird. You know, everything. Even the people that hadn't seen the Zapruder film, everything just seemed off. It seemed off. And there was rumblings amongst people that were there. That there. The big one was the shots from the grassy knoll. Many people talked about gunshots.

[Charlie Sheen]

And that one photo where there's like 15 people pointing to the same spot.

[Dan Cummins]

And you see smoke near where the bushes are. And it's not a good photo, but it's good enough that you go, hmm. It's just too. It was too uniform. You know, People were. They all were pointing. We heard shots from back there. There is a thing that does happen, especially if you look at Dealey Plaza. Have you ever driven through?

[Charlie Sheen]

I have, yeah. I've walked the whole crime scene. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's weird to be there, first of all. It's so little.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's. You can't believe how close everything is. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's real little.

[Charlie Sheen]

And that they. But that they sent him into that tight. And put him into that convertible pickle jar.

[Dan Cummins]

I mean.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Completely planned.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you watch the motorcycle cops drop back, huh? Just drop back.

[Dan Cummins]

Which is.

[Charlie Sheen]

There's. There's something I read. Did you ever read the man who Killed Kennedy? I think it's Jim Mars. Do you remember Jim Mars?

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Did you ever have him on?

[Dan Cummins]

No, I didn't.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. He's. He's. Didn't he pass? I think so.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. He wrote SCI Spies, which wasn't all about remote viewing. Oh, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

He's a trip. He was deep into everything.

[Dan Cummins]

I go back and forth on that remote view.

[Charlie Sheen]

I do, too. I do, too. But there's something in one of his books, and I've never been able to find it anywhere else. It's almost like this little detail was scrubbed from the Internet that the. The Morse code signal for victory right after the fatal headshot went out over every Dallas police radio.

[Dan Cummins]

Whoa.

[Charlie Sheen]

Have you ever heard that?

[Dan Cummins]

No.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. I read that. This is disclaimer. I'm not coming up with this. This is not my original data. But, yeah, when I read that, that was. That was just. That was creepy.

[Dan Cummins]

That's Crazy.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I don't know that he would have just added that for color. That's not something you just throw out there.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, that's. That's a weird thing to add. Victory. Well, a lot of people hated Kennedy back then. It's hard for us to, to reconcile now today because we think of him as like one of our greatest presidents. Of course, because he got murdered. We always love him after they get shot. But when he was alive, this, this was like half the country fucking hated him. And then there was the Bay of Pigs disaster where we lost a lot of people because Kennedy didn't give him air support. He wasn't told about the invasion until like last moment. And air support was crucial to its success. He denied air support. A bunch of people died that weren't going to die.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And so those guys on the ground, My friend Evan has a theory. My friend Evan, who owns Black Rifle Coffee, who was a Ranger himself, I.

[Charlie Sheen]

Met him, he's the best dude.

[Dan Cummins]

I love him to death. But he said like, those guys, those are hard nosed killers. And if they think that they lost their brothers because this piece of didn't give them the air support that they deserved, it was Kennedy's idea. And you tell him that you want to get that guy killed, like, oh, fucking sign me up. Those guys would do it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

He's like, those would be the type of guys he would have do something like that. And they would probably tell you this would be a perfect place to do it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Tight little turn.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Anybody who says, by the way, because conspiracies get everybody gets binary on this one way or another. I believe this or I believe that. Anybody says that Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't make that shot, has never shot a rifle. You're full of shit. If the rifle's on, it was not that far. I'm not saying he could do it a hundred times out of a hundred.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

But the possibility of him having that rifle ready, he's got a scope, he's got a rest, the car comes into view, you roll the sight onto his back, you squeeze off around, squeeze off around, and you get a headshot in there. That's 100% possible.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

I just don't buy it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

I don't buy. I don't. I don't think he acted alone. If he did do it, he might have done it. He might have shot at him. He might have even hit him once. There was other people. There was. He was the patsy. And I think when he said, I'm Just a patsy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

The way he said it was not like a guy who murdered somebody. The way he said it was like, I can't believe they set me up.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly like. Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

So I think he was in on a bunch of it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

I just don't think he pulled the trigger.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Or if he did pull the trigger, he was one of many people that pulled the trigger. That's what I think.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

But there was a lot of other people saying, oh, he couldn't have made those shots because the rifle scope was off. That's. You don't know what the you're talking about. Because I could get your rifle scope to be off in five seconds. Okay. If your rifle scope's perfect, is it zeroed in? Bang. I drop it on the ground. Try it again.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It'll be off by misaligned inches at 200 yards.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You're gonna play with that thing? It's. They're fragile. They require micro adjustments with little Allen wrenches and hex keys and shit.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

People don't torque them too much. You get it dialed in Perfect.

[Charlie Sheen]

On a $37 rifle.

[Dan Cummins]

On a rifle from 1963.

[Charlie Sheen]

From the back of a magazine.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Of course, that thing could get knocked off easy, like, almost instantly. You can knock that thing off.

[Charlie Sheen]

There is a thing about the tree, though.

[Dan Cummins]

What about the tree?

[Charlie Sheen]

That he had to shoot through a tree. Because what they've done and a lot of the reenactments supporting that he was the lone gunman, they did cut out part of the tree that Kennedy's behind.

[Dan Cummins]

They cut it out for the reenactment.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. So he would have a clear field.

[Dan Cummins]

Of view, but he had a clear field of view for at least a brief amount of time.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

And that's all you need. That's all you need. If you were good and if you practice. And I'm assuming that if you're going to go shoot the President, you probably get used to firing off a few rounds. You probably set up a target. So you're not going to just hope that your accuracy is still there on three years ago.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You're going to practice.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

So if you're going to practice, you're going to be even easier, quicker at wrapping a new round.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

He could have done it. I just don't buy it. It just. None of the evidence seems to point in that direction, including all the evidence that they try to fabricate. Like the magic bullet one is nuts. Anybody who's ever shot anything with a bullet who looks at that. And believes that went through two people and broke bones.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

That looks like it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Shot.

[Dan Cummins]

Got shot into a swimming pool.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It doesn't look like it ever hit anything.

[Charlie Sheen]

No. And I've had. Had people, like, you know, debate me and taking the side of the magic bullet.

[Dan Cummins]

They're not. They're.

[Charlie Sheen]

And, like, look me right in the eyes and believe it. And I'm just like, okay, well, cool. This is where we have to just.

[Dan Cummins]

They're out of their mind.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. We have to walk away.

[Dan Cummins]

They're out of their mind. They don't know. I could show them, like, let's go. Let's go. Take a bone from a cow. Let's set up a bone from a cow and I'll shoot it at 100 yards.

[Charlie Sheen]

One bone.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, just one. Just one bone. And let's take a look at that bullet.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's not going to look anything like that. It's going to be all up. And there's the fragments. There's missing fragments from the bullet that are in Connelly's wrist that are more fragments that are missing from the actual bullet. They're attributing to the wound.

[Charlie Sheen]

You can't. It's just.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, but they did it. That's what's nuts. We're going to talk about it till the cows come home.

[Charlie Sheen]

Do you know about the palm print, though? Oh, that. That they linked the rifle to Oswald because of a palm print.

[Dan Cummins]

When they went to visit him in the morgue.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. They didn't get it till after the autopsy. Yeah. Huh. It wasn't there. And then surprise.

[Dan Cummins]

How convenient.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. And also, like, says who? Says who? His fingerprint was on it. You could just say that back then, 1963, government says, we found a finger. But Oswald doesn't have a lawyer. No one's representing him. He's dead.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, no one's gonna say, my client is innocent. He's fucking dead. Okay. Pin it on him. Nobody gives a. And everybody just mourned the fact that the President was dead. And then, you know, all of a sudden, you got Lyndon Johnson full steam ahead with Vietnam War.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's nuts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. If you should look what. Look at what happens after the major event. It, like, it's.

[Dan Cummins]

Things got very different.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

They got very different.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's when you really start to see, like, okay, yeah, Kennedy was trying to.

[Dan Cummins]

Be a real president. And they were like, none of that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It was the Federal Reserve. It was Vietnam. It was like all these big, like, really important, big things.

[Dan Cummins]

He Wanted to get us out of. He wanted to kill the CIA. He wanted to do a lot of things.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And they were like, not today, sir. Then that's the real argument is we haven't really had a president since Kennedy. Everything after that has been. The president's been more of a speaker.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

Interesting. The giant machine behind it continues to run exactly as it always has.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. I mean, and just from where I sit, there's not a lot you can do about it.

[Dan Cummins]

There's nothing you can do about it. You can talk, but look, if they haven't done anything about the Kennedy assassination, you can't do shit.

[Charlie Sheen]

No.

[Dan Cummins]

You could put pressure on people, and you definitely can hurt their chances of getting reelected if people find out that they're very disappointed in you for not supporting this or not telling us about that or lying about this or. You were involved in that. Yeah. But other than that, like, there's not much. Not much you can do.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. That's why I don't really weigh in anymore. Good. It's probably smart, you know, just. It feels like. I don't know, it's wasted energy.

[Dan Cummins]

It definitely is a lot of that. But it's also like a show, you know, you could watch the show. Hey, have you heard the. Watch the latest episode of the Epstein Files? Like, what's going on?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You know?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It turns into kind of like a show turns into a parlor game also, you know? Right. That's how my dad described the OJ Case. He said, this is like the greatest parlor game ever.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. You know, Boy, I remember watching that Verdict on TV live in my apartment with this girl I was dating. She was a really sweet girl, and she couldn't believe that he was innocent.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

She didn't understand it. She was so confused.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It didn't lie.

[Dan Cummins]

She was like.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, no.

[Dan Cummins]

How she just kept. She kept, like putting her hands over her face. No, no.

[Charlie Sheen]

It. It completely torqued her. Her whole reality.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. I was on a. On a mountaintop in Mexico doing a kind of a, you know, low rent sci fi film called the Arrival.

[Dan Cummins]

I love that movie. Oh, don't say that was a low rap movie. I love that movie. You know, Turned me on to that movie. Dave Foley. Dave Foley, who's a good friend of mine from newspaper radio.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

When we were on news radio together, he loved that movie because this is a so underrated sci fi movie. I'm like, okay, cool. Wow. And I checked it out. It was great.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Thank you. It was. It was the first film that Actually incorporated a mashup of puppets and CGI at the same time. Because at that point it was either one or the other and. And the other hadn't fully really arrived yet.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. So that was kind of cool. But no, we were. I was so hoping for the day off to be back at the hotel because everybody knew the night before that the verdict was coming. Right. So we had to shoot this scene and there was a. There was a prop man and he had the only. This is 95. Right. He had the only cell phone and it had like half a bar and it's starting to rain and he's got his ear. And his buddies got his phone in LA up to the TV when they're about to read the verdict. So we all gather around the prop man and we're watching him and he's kind of leaning to keep the signal, to keep it, to kind of keep, you know, connected. And then we can see when he hears it, he slumps a little bit, right? Takes the phone from his ear and slams it into the mud. Mud and screams. That got away with murder. Voice like, echoed through the mist. It was gnarly.

[Dan Cummins]

That's a wild scene.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's how I learned about the OJ Verdict. Yeah, wow. Yeah, wow. Dave Anderson was there with me. He's a buddy I grew up with. He's in the book. He's a. He's a two time Oscar winning FX makeup artist, you know. And so, yeah, if you ever run across Dave the Rave Anderson, ask him about the OJ verdict.

[Dan Cummins]

That's a crazy. Just a crazy scene. Imagine a guy reacting like that.

[Charlie Sheen]

He was our only connection to it. And everybody was so invested in this thing and it was really hard to go. And that was like. Do you remember time of day that might have happened? Kind of late morning, sort of. Or was it in the afternoon?

[Dan Cummins]

I don't remember. I don't remember at all.

[Charlie Sheen]

We still had a pretty sizable day to shoot and it was really hard to regain focus. Focus. Yeah. And feel like what we were doing still mattered.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Because there. There was a. There was a giant just. There was like a murmur in the universe at that point, you know, like something. It felt like something had been taken from us, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Civility.

[Charlie Sheen]

Did you see the last or the most recent OJ documentary? No, it's. It's Murder, Mayhem and Blood. I think it's got three.

[Dan Cummins]

Murder, Mayhem and Blood.

[Charlie Sheen]

Something. Murder, Mayhem and Lies. Something. I'm probably way off with that title. No, no, it's actually.

[Dan Cummins]

But it's the latest O.J. documentary.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, I guess Manhunt will be the latest. This. Yeah, this is the one that. That was before that. And. And it's. It's broken down at the crime scene by two, like, expert, veteran recreationists. Yeah, it's. It's a trip. Do you. Do you. Do you watch any OJ stuff that comes out?

[Dan Cummins]

No, no, I try not to because it's just too weird.

[Charlie Sheen]

I. Okay. Do you think there was something else there? No, no.

[Dan Cummins]

I think he killed his wife.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And he killed Ron Goldman and he got away with it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And it's just nuts. It's just, you know, it's weird. You watch him on, like, Naked Gun and you're like, that guy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

That guy murdered his wife with a knife. Like, what?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Then he got away with it and he's just golfing.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It was a follow up part that didn't really support anything about what he had claimed.

[Dan Cummins]

You remember when he was a rapper? Remember the Juice is Loose? You remember that?

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, gosh, I think. I think I just. I will that one out of my.

[Dan Cummins]

He had like a. Like a. Like a king's robe on and, like, there's a bunch of hot ladies around him.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay, it's coming back to me. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

He made a rap song.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. He was like, embracing the heel role at one point in time after the. The guilty verdict or the not guilty verdict.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

And so he. He got into like, rap.

[Charlie Sheen]

I mean, probably just. Just for. Just for a monetary grab, I would imagine.

[Dan Cummins]

Let me watch you play it. Play the juices. Loose.

[Charlie Sheen]

Loose.

[Dan Cummins]

It's so bad.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, my God.

[Dan Cummins]

It's. It's. Is it off of YouTube? That would be hilarious. He had. It was part of a TV show. Yeah, I saw another clip. Oh, that's right. He has like a prank show. He was trying to prank people. It's like probably pre Jackass. Yeah. But I'm trying to think of the thing they had on MTV that they did with all the celebrities. Oh, punk.

[Charlie Sheen]

Punk. Got it.

[Dan Cummins]

OJ Was doing that. Everybody would just run away screaming.

[Charlie Sheen]

People.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Like, walked up to her hotel room with a knife. Oh, my God. That was one of his scenes. Jesus Christ. You Got Juice is what it was called. You got juice.

[Charlie Sheen]

You got Juice. Damn.

[Dan Cummins]

But I don't.

[Charlie Sheen]

I'm trying to find this.

[Dan Cummins]

Also the music video had a bunch of. That was Naked Ladies. Yeah. It was aired on like, Pay per View, the Spice Channel or something like that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Huh?

[Dan Cummins]

SP Remember the Spice Channel? H. Yeah. But that Whole thing going from that verdict to try and going back to work.

[Charlie Sheen]

Picture.

[Dan Cummins]

It's not something Video.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, my.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, the musical.

[Charlie Sheen]

Look at that.

[Dan Cummins]

I remember one time we were filming News radio was in the middle of that North Hollywood shootout. Do you remember that?

[Charlie Sheen]

I do. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

We were watching it live on tv.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

While trying to do a sitcom. And we were like, we probably should take some time off here. There's a fucking war going on in the middle of North Hollywood.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

I think that involved a lot of cocaine and steroids, too.

[Charlie Sheen]

From the. From the brothers.

[Dan Cummins]

From the guys.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, I know they were definitely on steroids.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

But I think they were. There was probably some. Or meth, something like.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, I think meth would have kept them there for a lot longer. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

For. People don't know the story. These guys, did they. They rob a bank? Is that what they did?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. But wait.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like, could have driven away, could have left with all the.

[Dan Cummins]

All the dough, and they decided to get in a shootout with the cops.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And killed cops, right?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

I mean, and they got killed. A bunch of cops got hit, and the cops were, like, horribly outgunned.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

The cops had their nine millimeter pistols. And these guys have machine guns and bulletproof vests.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Kevlar helmets and fed face masks.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Now, do you support that when the dude finally kills himself that it was a simultaneous sniper shot at the same time?

[Dan Cummins]

I never even looked into that. Is that one of the. That's one of.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, it's just. It's. Yeah. That's one thing that they claim that.

[Dan Cummins]

He got shot and shot himself at the exact same.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exact same time.

[Dan Cummins]

It's possible.

[Charlie Sheen]

But why would they. Like, what does that serve? Like, what does that.

[Dan Cummins]

Maybe they were already gonna shoot him and he shot himself and they didn't think he was gonna shoot himself and they pulled the trigger right when he did.

[Charlie Sheen]

Got it.

[Dan Cummins]

That's what I would guess if that's the case.

[Charlie Sheen]

But it's not like they have to be let off the hook because at that point, that dude has to be put down.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. I mean, one of the guys had already been shot, and he was shot in the leg, and they didn't get him any medical help. They knew he was gonna bleed out. You know, I think. I think that was the case. I think he got shot in his femoral artery. Yeah. The first. The first guy, it says he died by. This is from Wikipedia. He died by suicide via gunshot to the head from his handgun. Simultaneously being hit by rifle fire from LAPD officers with one round striking and severing his spine. Whoa. The other guy got shot 20 over 29 times and died from blood loss.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. I mean, what are the odds that the crazy. That. The thing with.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, well, it sounds like there were a lot of bullets were flying in his direction. Over 2000 rounds were found. Jesus.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like, what does that weigh? Like, if you're carting that around and you've got a whole duffel of cash.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. You must have a heavy trunk.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. That is bananas. Half was the police, but, wow. Still, imagine being in that. That neighborhood. They just. I think that's where I moved my thousand rounds are flying in both directions.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, the cops, like, went to a gun store, right, didn't they? I think they, like, right when it started, and they were like, whatever you got, you know, give us your biggest bore rifle. You know, whatever you got, we'll take it. Yeah. How much ammo you got?

[Dan Cummins]

I mean, how long did that go on for? About an hour.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

They had homemade body armor. SWAT team wasn't ready for that. They had to commandeer an armored vehicle to evacuate wounded people.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Then they.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's.

[Dan Cummins]

That's kind of sparked the debate for police to get more power.

[Charlie Sheen]

Jeez. Yeah, that was a. That was kind of a. That was a turning point moment.

[Dan Cummins]

Now, if you're a real conspiracy theorist, then you say, oh, MK Ultra trick those guys into doing that so that.

[Charlie Sheen]

The cops get better militarized and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Well, this is the problem with conspiracies. People try. Attribute them to everything.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Really get down the rabbit hole. Everything's a conspiracy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. But then when they do that, they kind of. They, they. They. They harm the credibility of the ones that. That can really be, you know, considered for. For. For the. For how we know them to be.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Charlie Sheen]

After all the extensive research.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. There's real ones, but I think that's also part of the reason why, you know, some really silly conspiracy theories get pushed. I think they get pushed by bots, and I think they get pushed by.

[Charlie Sheen]

Paid accounts to water down the real ones. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

To make.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Make them look stupid. And they're like, attach them. Attach a really stupid conspiracy to one that's legitimate.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And then it discredits the legitimate one.

[Charlie Sheen]

One. Yeah. It's almost like, you know, not to introduce this, but just from afar. It's almost like a lot of the QANON stuff kind of had that effect. Just.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, I didn't dig deep into that and don't. You know, and only know just the. Just the basic, you know, talking points about it. But. But one thing I did see that was. Felt like a. A constant was that there was always anytime they'd mention something that was just completely screwy. It was followed up with the ones that we believe to be real.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, it's just kind of this big. Kind of just put them all in the same.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. A stew of good stuff and bullshit.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. And just stirred that cauldron, you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. That's a very convenient way to bury Truth. The QAnon documentary on HBO was great.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Into the fire that was called something.

[Charlie Sheen]

I didn't see it.

[Dan Cummins]

Into the storm.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, okay.

[Dan Cummins]

It's really good.

[Charlie Sheen]

Is it? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a multi part thing on all the people that were involved in 4chan and the creation of QAnon, who they think the original guy was, and they think another guy took it over after a while and took over the account.

[Charlie Sheen]

Got it.

[Dan Cummins]

And it seems like they were just kind of fucking around at first, but it's not definitive. Like, he's got some really good evidence that points in that direction, but it's just hard to know. And, you know, everyone always thought that it was someone inside the White House. There was some, like, secret person inside the White House. It doesn't seem like this documentary believes that. The guy made this documentary. He pins it on one guy in particular that's a tech nerd that seems to have all of the attributes of someone who could pull off a QAnon type deal.

[Charlie Sheen]

Checks every box.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Super smart, you know, Internet shit poster, you know, running 4chan, you know, and like, that's the whole thing over there. It's like, get people to do stuff that's stupid.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Like, they got women to free bleed. They started pushing this idea that you, you know, it's the patriarchy's making you wear a tampon, and you should just. Your menstrual cycle should just flow in your pants and who cares? And this is like a sign of your strong femininity. It was just them being crazy, and then a bunch of women just adopted it. Not for long. It's gross. They were like, this is stupid.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Probably last a couple weeks, but. But a bunch of women. But it's. That's. People are really susceptible. You could get people to do that. Not everybody.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right?

[Dan Cummins]

But it's just like the Haight Ashbury free clinic thing. Not everybody's gonna join your call.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

But if you open up a free clinic, you're gonna get enough, you know, lost children that come in through your.

[Charlie Sheen]

Doors, well, they're going to need your legit services to start with. Yeah, exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

Exactly. Yeah. You got to sort it out. It's just nuts that. That's our government. That's our daddies. Our government daddies, the people that we're supposed to be looking to, to help us lead a prosperous life and secure our standing in the world and make sure we. We grow financially. And these did all that?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, ultimate power, right?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In any form. Well, they. Bringing it back to stardom, like, that's a weird power to get somebody. It's a, especially when you're 21 years old. Yeah, it's a weird power. Weird amount of freedom. Weird amount of, like, people expecting you to be kind of wild.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure. Yeah. And again, that thing you talked about where you watch it happen to others and then suddenly it's, it's, it's you. It's, it's, It's a lot more. It's a lot more intoxicating. And then I would always think, okay, so why, why. How were they able to control it? Why didn't, why didn't I see them enjoying it at this level? And it wasn't about, I'm going to show them the way they should have been doing it. It was just about, hey, guys. Okay, cool. No, it's, it's. It, it. It finally made its way over here and, and it, it, it can go to 11, you know, and, and, and not burn the whole house down, you know, when it was still fun, when it was still creative and productive on some level, you know? Know, because it wasn't about. It was still having to show up, and it was still, you know, carving out enough time for the party, but also reserving enough, you know, energy for the job.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. You know, that's the balance.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's the balance.

[Dan Cummins]

And some people pull it off. Some people, they're really disciplined and they pull off the work and then they pull off the partying.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right. And I, I was able to maintain that for, For a long time. You know, and even when it flamed out like those early rehabs and, and there was always, like, there was a job, like the day I got out.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, scripts showing up in rehab, and it's like, they're just, they're just, they, they want you to get, they want you to get well. Okay. They want you to get better. But, you know, as soon as you're out of here, you know, we got we got some good stuff for you to look at.

[Dan Cummins]

There's also, unfortunately, a romantic notion of a guy getting out of rehab.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting, right? Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

How many cop shows start with a guy who's down on his dumps putting a pizza in a blender for breakfast, you know what I mean? Like really, like at his lowest of low points.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Drinking. And then maybe his daughter cries and he throws the bottles into the trash can. It's like, I'm done. And now he's back. And there's a romantic thing of getting your shit together.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Like Charlie's back better than ever.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, everybody's rooting for you again.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And they're expecting the guy to deliver. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

With passion. Now, real life experience. He was a drug addict.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Look at Robert Downey Jr. Now.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. People love that. They love that.

[Charlie Sheen]

But the same thing was happening to Downey when, when he, when, when he was in rehab or maybe when he was even in the pen, when they. People were bringing him. I think he was, I think they brought him Ally McBeal when he was still in jail. And I don't think, I think he still got high after that, you know, and my dad would always be like, yelling at the television. It's like, stop rewarding his, this behavior. Stop rewarding it. Let him, let him, let him sit in those consequences. Not out of judgment or out of punishment or, you know, just out of.

[Dan Cummins]

Love, you know, to help him get his shit together.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

If you keep letting them fuck up over and over again, they'll continue to fuck up.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if there's always a carrot the day you walk out, you know, something, something to chase and, and, and, and a soft landing. Yeah. You know, that's what was really interesting about this, you know, this, this, this, this decades, decade, long timeout that I got that I got put into, you know, which, you know, at some point the punishment has to sort of fit the crime. Right. And, yeah, it felt like it was a little bit longer than it should have been. Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember any murder charges, you know, but at the same time, there's not a chance that I, that I could have done the two projects that I've. That, wow, the book came out yesterday and the doc comes out today. You know, I couldn't have done either unless I had the kind of perspective and distance from all of that that I, that I was able to get to find.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, you've been Sober for how long? Seven years.

[Charlie Sheen]

Coming up on eight.

[Dan Cummins]

Eight years?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Be eight in December.

[Dan Cummins]

That probably helped a lot to be away from everything to. For you to achieve that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was still doing things to, you know, just kind of stay in the mix a little bit. And, you know, I do signings, I do speaking engagements, do stuff like that. But it was also so, like, it's like as soon as I quit drinking, all my kids started showing up again. And, you know, Sam and Lola were living there, and then they'd cycle back with Denise and then Bob and Max would show up, and then they'd. Brooke would come back and like, okay, so he's gonna be here. And then Lola would show back up. So my house was kind of like this. It was like a clubhouse, you know, And I write in the book that my vacancy sign, you know, for those children always hangs facing out, you know, so it was, you know, being. Being called to a. To a much more responsible and complicated set of responsibilities and order, you know, and just having to do stuff that they. They didn't care about. You know, a writing of a show or response to a movie or any, like, popularity or IMDb, you know, stuff. They. They were just like, you know, with the basic needs and getting to school and help with this. And so it was really cool to like, suddenly just be that that's the only stuff that. That, that that mattered to the people that matter the most. And so. And, and yeah, but you're right that. That none of that could have happened if I was away on location or having to be at a studio every week or.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

But, yeah, I think it's. It was about the time that it. That it created, you know, so. And. And it's interesting that. That I'm not. I'm not like, I'm not looking at this as a. As a comeback, you know, It's. It's. It's. I think it's a reset. I think it's a reset, you know, And I didn't. I didn't. I didn't rely on anything that I'd done before. Never written a book, never done a documentary, you know, but to come back with two projects that everybody seems to be really excited about.

[Dan Cummins]

Documentary is very entertaining.

[Charlie Sheen]

Awesome. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

It's very entertaining.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

It's really well done, like, the way it's put together and it's just so. The stories are fucking bananas. It's just. It's so banana as It's. The. The whole thing was just so nuts. But you know, like I said, everybody loves a story of someone getting their shit together. And that's a great accomplishment of being sober for almost eight years. It really is.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you know, it's. People are going to yell at me because of how I deal with the AA in the book. And that's fine. I just speak to my personal experiences. I'm not.

[Dan Cummins]

How do you deal with it?

[Charlie Sheen]

That. I tried it for a long time. I. For a combined 21 years and just decided that I had to give this, give this a go on my own.

[Dan Cummins]

So you just do it completely on your own? You don't have any person you call or any.

[Charlie Sheen]

Now, I mean, there's people that are sober that I still talk to and.

[Dan Cummins]

You don't have a sponsor or something?

[Charlie Sheen]

I don't, I don't. No. No, I know it does help some people, of course. And that's why I don't want to say that It's, I'm not recommending that. This is another.

[Dan Cummins]

I'm just saying, your truth. This is how you do it. I had a very good friend who was an alcoholic who quit one day. He crashed his car, ran from the cops on foot, got arrested, and then he's like, what am I doing with my life? I'm done. He quit like that day that there. Never had a drink again. I knew him for 20 years after that.

[Charlie Sheen]

It happened. It can happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but I, I think that I, that I do have the experience of all of that time in and around the rooms, you know, and, and, and that's not to say that I don't still remember a couple of nuggets, a couple of things that still stuck with me that I still thought you still see as valuable. Right. You know, but it's, there's, there's a line in the book that it's, it's, it's, it's hard to ask for help when, when somebody else has raised your hand for you. You, you know, interventions, you pulled into a thing. All you're doing is just counting the days.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, that's a part of the documentary too. When the first intervention, when you got brought into a room and everybody's sitting there waiting for you, you thought it was a party.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, yeah. I mean, I was a little suspicious because it's 9am why is dad having a 9am birthday party?

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Unless we're going to Magic Mountain. Right. That's usually the time you leave.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's easy for a 7 year old. Right?

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. No, that was wild. That is something that I can still see as it happened on the day, really turning that corner in the hallway into my parents living room and like, and my brain is still trying to turn it into a birthday party. My brain insisted that's what we're there for.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, that's funny.

[Charlie Sheen]

And it just, when it starts to dawn on you, like, have you ever taken a sip of something that was in the wrong bottle but your brain saw the label and so your, it takes your body like a half a second. Yeah. To catch up to. That's not. Those don't match. Those don't match. Yeah, Yeah, I have a story about that, but I probably shouldn't tell it on there, but. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

So that one didn't work. It didn't work that way. You had to do it on your own.

[Charlie Sheen]

It worked for a year. It worked for a year. But then like, as is in the, in the document, I'm at Cage's house and on the anniversary, on the one year I find that beer in his fridge, I'm like, well, that's there for a reason. Celebrate. That's not an accident. Yeah. And just didn't even think twice.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Just was like, ah, finally. Boom.

[Dan Cummins]

And now we're off to the races.

[Charlie Sheen]

We're off to the races. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow. How did you get sober this time?

[Charlie Sheen]

Time? I, I, I'd gotten off the drugs, gotten off the dope. But you, when I say dope, that's always coke, never heroin. There's never a heroin guy. I, I'd been off that, geez, probably over 10 years, you know, and so, I mean, more than 10 years, like sitting here today. So I had, I hadn't, I hadn't around with any of that for a few years. I was just, I was, I just committed to drinking, you know, and then found that to be like the most unmanageable drug that I've ever tried to navigate. Drinking. Drinking. Yeah. Drinking more than cocaine. Yeah. Because there's never a time when you can't get it, you know, and when I had made the decision that I, okay, I'm just going to drink, drink, I treated it like, like I did drugs, you know? Yeah. But it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really kind of, it's, it's very accepted and it's, it's, it's, it's very socially ingrained, you know, it's like normal. Yeah. It's always Miller time.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. You want to smoke a joint some in front of Someone. They might be like, hey, yeah, what's going on here? Yeah, you want to have a drink in front of someone completely normal? Everyone does it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But. So I knew the way my body was starting to react and that. The way I was starting to feel and just. It just. I couldn't feel it how I used to, even at, like, really, like, powerful doses, you know, I just couldn't. And that got depressing. That wasn't like, I'll just drink twice as much now. That was like, damn. The thing I relied on is now just, like, told me. Yeah, yeah, it's. No.

[Dan Cummins]

Too much of a tolerance.

[Charlie Sheen]

Our relationship is now different. Yeah. And so there was a day, and it's. It's. It's in the book. And. And I. I, you know, I was a morning drinker. I loved, you know, spiking my coffee. That's like. For me, it was, like, the best time to drink. I mean, you're not gonna get shit done the rest of the day. But that's when I felt it. That's when I could still feel it was in the morning, you know? So I'm on, like, my third Macallan coffee or whatever, and my daughter Sam, like, calls from. She's at the house and calls and says, hey, what time are we leaving? Like, to go where she had a hair appointment. And it was a Sunday, I think, or a Saturday. And I've never, ever mixed the cups and the wheel, ever. I've never had a dui. How about that?

[Dan Cummins]

That's awesome.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's pretty good, right? Yeah. I just. I just decided, like, a long time ago, like, when I was, like, 17, that was never gonna happen.

[Dan Cummins]

Good for you.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I was living in a limo back then. There was, you know, the occasional cab. But these days. These days, to get busted for drinking and driving with the available transportation that is literally 15 choices in your hand. There's no excuse.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

And so I called Tony. I said, tony, I can't drive. You gotta help me get Sam to this thing. And so he was like, I'll be right. He was there in 20 minutes. We got her to the appointment. It went great. And there was a moment in the car driving back, and I describe it in the book. And I could see her in two mirrors. Mirrors, the visor and the side view. And she was just kind of sitting back there. And I. I'm not saying that I know exactly what she was thinking, but I could feel what I. What. I'm pretty sure she was. And it was just this thing about you know, why. It's. Yeah, it's cool that dad did this, but why. Why isn't dad driving again?

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, why. Why is there always appointment. Yeah. And it's not nothing with Tony. You know, he's been around forever and, you know, and, and, and it was. So we got, we got back from that and I. And it was. There was something that I couldn't shake. It was something that stayed with me. Just the images of her, this little 13 year old kid in the backseat and her dad can't even take her to like a. Just a basic. Just like up the highway to a hair appointment. Like that. That got. That was complicated, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I was like, what am I doing? And then I just sat inside. I sat inside of that for a while because it didn't feel good. And I. And I thought, okay, what can I do to not stop feeling like this? The math is pretty simple at that point, you know, And I wasn't gonna do rehab. I wasn't gonna do a big dramatic, you know, life turnaround or I was just gonna just make a decision and stick to it. And, you know, I took a few Valium, drank a few beers, and then the next day just woke up and said, I'm done. And didn't care. I didn't. I made a decision. I wasn't gonna care how I felt physically. Was just gonna like, just grit and bear it. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

How long did it take before you felt okay?

[Charlie Sheen]

About three days. The story I'd written that was gonna be a month was just like that. That, that, that was fake and it was. And so. And then it just coincidentally it happened to be my oldest daughter Cassandra's birthday. When I quit December 12th, you know, it was just like, okay, that's all aligned. And then, then something else happened after that that. Because everybody's gonna get a little squirrely. Like you put. The problem with guy like me is that. And people like me is you're able to put things back together really quickly. Right, right. And kind of just kind of reassemble.

[Dan Cummins]

The pieces so you're not as scared to go off the rails.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. And. And so then I got a call. This is the post. You know, know, already had HIV for, for several years. At this point, I get a call that there's a new medicine. Right. This is about a month after the Sam thing. Right. And they're like, look, we want you to try this thing because it's, it's. It's a much smaller cocktail, it's much less toxicity and, and no, very few side effects. We think you're going to do great on it, right? They said, but you can't drink on it. The other one, you could drink, drink your face off like, like you could, you could drink like a pirate on the other one. Which they shouldn't have told me that you can, you know. And so, so I said, okay, great. So I tried that one and it was, you know, it was working great. But they said, okay, if you can just stay off the booze, it's going to keep working the light, light, light like it is, you know. So this other thing showed up in addition to that, like, just in, in concert with it. So now I had a couple things going on. You know, let's keep this thing, this, this evil stowaway is what I like to call it. Let's keep that thing in the, you know, at bay and, and let's, you know, rebuild every relationship that matters in your life, you know, while you're still here.

[Dan Cummins]

Did you have a revelation after a while, after you were sober for a while, where, where you stop and think, like, why was I getting so fucked up? Like, what was I, what was I trying to avoid? Or what was I trying to enhance or what, what was the purpose? Like, what was I, what. What bothered me so much that I couldn't be sober?

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, it, it. I think it was more a void earlier. Like, earlier in life. Like, avoid the pressures of fame, avoid the fears of commitment or relationship or, or being exposed as a fucking fraud at some point, you know, I think that was earlier and I think enhance came later, that, that trying to just make situations just feel more exciting or cooler or more, you know, sexier or. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, but it's interesting that you presented both sides of that, you know, Avoid, enhance. Yeah, yeah, I relate to both, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, I think that's a good thing to tell people too, because everybody wants to hear the drugs. Like, Bill Hicks had a great joke about. Nobody ever hears great drug stories.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, you only hear the bad ones, you know, and it is true. But the reason why people do it is because it's fun. Like, it can ruin your life, but it's also really fun. That's why people do it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

This is, it's important for people to know because you don't want them to think you're lying to them, you know, and for them to hear you sober and happy and go, okay, that's possible. You can get there because this guy's admitting what getting high was. You know, like, there's a scene in the documentary where you're talking about the first time you smoke crack or this girl's giving you a blowjob while you're smoking crack. And it was like, the greatest feeling of all time. Yeah, like. Yeah, like, I think that's important to say.

[Charlie Sheen]

That hasn't been topped. I probably shouldn't say that. I don't care. I don't care.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

That hasn't been top.

[Dan Cummins]

Have you ever heard Hunter Biden talk about crack?

[Charlie Sheen]

I haven't, no.

[Dan Cummins]

He was on that Channel 5 show, and he gives this ode to crack that made me want to immediately go smoke crack.

[Charlie Sheen]

Seriously?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Because Hunter Biden's a very smart guy. I don't think people think of him that way because of the laptop thing, but he's very intelligent.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And very articulate. So when he's explaining, like, the effects of crack and how different it is and how incredible it is and the euphoria of it, and it's like he's literally saying that he's, like, getting the itch while he's sitting there sober, you know, working on his sobriety, trying to keep it together. After all, publicly shamed.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

For being out of control. And talent talking about crack like a lover that you lost in a drowning accident.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. It's.

[Dan Cummins]

It's crazy.

[Charlie Sheen]

I get that. That. I get that. That makes sense.

[Dan Cummins]

I bet you do.

[Charlie Sheen]

There's a moment in the dock.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Where I tell this. The Sandy story. Yeah. And I say, wow, that one actually got me kind of. Yeah. I could feel that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

That's the problem. The problem is.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's the problem. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

The problem is, did you. And. No, you don't have to. Did you ever try it, or.

[Dan Cummins]

No, No, I never even did coke.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, you never. Oh, nope. Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

No. When I was in high school, I have a good buddy of mine, and his cousin was selling coke, and his cousin, who was super normal, I knew him forever. Great guy, super cool guy. All of a sudden, he became weird and pale and lost all this weight, and it was like he got bit by a vampire. And him and his girlfriend were selling coke, and they would just watch TV and do coke, and they had, like, this attic apartment, and it was like he had gotten bit by a vampire. That's how it felt like to me. I was like, he just lost his whole life to coke. And then I saw some other kids that had coke problems around me where they were just dying to get coke. And I Was like, this is a bad drug. And back then, I think it was actually coke. You know, I don't even know at.

[Charlie Sheen]

Least, like, 80% of it. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

In the 1980s, I don't know if they're cutting it with anything, but I made a decision at one point in time in my life. No, I don't want to have nothing to do with that one. That one seems to rob people's lives.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you just stuck to that?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, it just seemed to me like, that one can make you a loser.

[Charlie Sheen]

And then did you roll in circles over the years where it was prevalent or.

[Dan Cummins]

I knew some people that did coke and never worked out. Well. I didn't know anybody who did coke who, like, kept their life together. Everybody who did coke was, like, barely together, barely hanging on, always off the rails.

[Charlie Sheen]

I think there's, like, one guy.

[Dan Cummins]

One guy out there.

[Charlie Sheen]

Some superheroes that maintained it all those years was. Was Jack Nicholson.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

I think he's the only guy.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

I mean, do we know of anybody else?

[Dan Cummins]

Well, they might not be public about it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, but what about the rumors.

[Charlie Sheen]

That Jack always traveled with, like, a doctor? Have you ever heard this shit? Have you heard these stories?

[Dan Cummins]

No, no, no.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, yeah. That he had a doctor that carried his Coke or distributed.

[Dan Cummins]

That's amazing.

[Charlie Sheen]

And only gave him just. Just what he needed. Oh, yeah. No, I don't know.

[Dan Cummins]

I mean, that's some movie star shit right there. Doctor with a leather satchel to carry your Coke around.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And it's just. He's just close.

[Dan Cummins]

I'd make him wear a stethoscope. Everywhere you go, bro.

[Charlie Sheen]

Has to.

[Dan Cummins]

You need to have a stethoscope on. Everybody's got to know you're legit.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, but that's like. That's one of the great, like,'80s rumors about Jack.

[Dan Cummins]

Funny, I never heard that rumor.

[Charlie Sheen]

Some guy.

[Dan Cummins]

That makes sense.

[Charlie Sheen]

But then you'd be around Jack. I was only around him a few times, but then, you know, it was cool as hell. And you're always kind of looking like, all right, who's the bag man? Who's his guy? Where is he? You know? Or, who's the bag man for that night, you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like, was it a team of doctors.

[Dan Cummins]

That rotated Dangerfield party till the end? He.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, he did.

[Dan Cummins]

He kept that traitor rolling.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, he did. We lived in the same building for a while.

[Dan Cummins]

You in Dangerfield?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

No way.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's that building in the book called the Wilshire. On Wilshire. Oh, wow. Gosh, I maybe saw him twice I got in the elevator with him one time and. And we'd. We'd seen each other out, but never really had, like an elevator moment, you know? And he goes, hey, kid, how you doing? You look great. And he's like. He goes, hey, hey.

[Dan Cummins]

He goes, look at that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

But in the elevator, look at Rod.

[Dan Cummins]

He looks funny just in his photo.

[Charlie Sheen]

Just.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, just in the photo.

[Charlie Sheen]

You start laughing, doing nothing.

[Dan Cummins]

He was so good.

[Charlie Sheen]

Dude, I. I can't tell you what happened that night. I don't know where we were, but it looks like the jacket is definitely a. Circa 8990. The. That looks like a backstage something. That's on my jacket, right? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Probably at a Poison concert or something, perhaps.

[Charlie Sheen]

So we're in the elevator, he says, hey, kid, what are you. What are you, Puerto Rican? Right. And I. And I said, no, I'm Spanish. Irish. And he says, ah, you don't know whether to start a parade or start a war. And it's like doors open and he just walks out. He just had that on standby. Or. Or built it in the moment.

[Dan Cummins]

He probably built it in the moment.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I was just like. So I can't really ever describe my heritage without hearing his voice, you know, Start a parade or start a war.

[Dan Cummins]

That's funny.

[Charlie Sheen]

Just like, wow. Just left me with that gold, you know? Know.

[Dan Cummins]

We have his handwritten notes at our. Our comedy club in the community. Yeah. For one of his Tonight show appearances. We have his handwritten notes framed to all the stuff he's going to talk about.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

It's pretty cool.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. And. And. And would he. Would he stick to.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah. It's like his jokes and he had, like, the punch lines for, like, accented, bold letters.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, seriously?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, he wrote it all out darker.

[Charlie Sheen]

So he was. He was, like, super organized.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, super organized. Well, he. He stopped doing stand up for a long time, and he was selling aluminum side writing. And then he made it again when he was much older in life. He came back and wow. The thing that happened was from the time he stopped doing stand up to when he went back to having a regular job, he never stopped writing jokes. Like, his brain just worked that way, so he was just always writing jokes. So when he came back.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sitting on a treasure trove. Yeah. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes. And he just stormed the gates. When he came back, everybody's like, where's this guy been?

[Charlie Sheen]

That's amazing.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

And then he became huge. Back to school and the Ronnie Dangerfield HBO comedy specials, and it's epic.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, he's one of the. All time.

[Charlie Sheen]

So he came back doing stand up.

[Dan Cummins]

I think he was in his 40s.

[Charlie Sheen]

Got some heat again. And that. That activated the films.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, well, the stand up, he didn't have any heat before, but when he quit, you know, he was just like, kind of like getting by, doing all right and got a job. Quit. I think he might have quit for 10 years.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. And then the whole time he's writing and then he's like, fuck it, I gotta do this. And then got back into comedy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

I hope I'm not fucking that story up, but I think I'm. I think I'm accurate with that. See if you can find it. Make sure that's true. I'm 90% sure that's true. But I know that he didn't make it until he was in his 40s. And I told this the other day, but I'll tell it again. I used to work at Greatwood center for the Performing Arts in Mansfield, Massachusetts. I was security guy there.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

And I was backstage or by the. By the. Outside of the backstage and run to Dangerfield. Would go on stage completely naked with a bathrobe on. That's what he would wear. And he was wearing a bathrobe backstage with slippers and just walking around. I was like, this guy's wild.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

And they're like. He goes on stage like that. I'm like, shut the up.

[Charlie Sheen]

Was it partially closed at least, or it was just wild?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, it was close. Okay, let everybody see his dick. But if you went in the green room, you seeing his dick because he's sitting there. He'd just sit there. His dick would be hanging out. He didn't care. Struggled financially for nine years. One port forming as a singing waiter until he was fired before taking a job selling aluminum siding in the mid-50s to support his wife and family. He later quipped. So the 1960s, he started reviving his career.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, damn.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. So somewhere close to 10 years. Still working as a salesman by day, he returned to the stage, performing at hotels in the Catskills. Mountain mountains. But still finding minimal success. He fell into debt. About $20,000, by his own estimate, could get booked. Dangerfield came to realize what he lacked was an image well defined on stage. Persona that the audience could relate to. One that would distinguish him from other comics. After being shunned by some premier comedy venues, he returned home, where he began developing a character for whom nothing goes right. Isn't that crazy?

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Damn.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, look at this. During Roy's comeback bid. Who's Roy? When he was 19, he was Jack Roy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh.

[Dan Cummins]

He had to become Rodney Dangerfield. Oh. People recognize. Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

I want to use that. Checking in at hotels from now on.

[Dan Cummins]

Wanting to distinguish himself from longtime patrons who might have remembered him from the 1940s, Roy asked club owner George McFadden to change his name. He came up with Roddy Dangerfield. Wow. He didn't want people to remember him as Jack Roy from back in the day. He didn't like his old act.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow. He said. I don't know where it came from. McFadden may have taken it from the Jack Benny program on NBC radio, which first used Rodney Dangerfield as a character's name in 1941. Ricky Nelson also used the pseudonym in a 1962 episode of the Adventures of Ozzy and Harriet. Wow. That's crazy. Ed Sullivan Show, 1967. Wow. That's when he popped again.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's amazing.

[Dan Cummins]

That's nuts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. Go get him.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Maybe he didn't know whether to start a parade or start a war.

[Dan Cummins]

He was a fun guy. I knew a lot of people who knew him. I didn't get a chance to meet him. I saw him once at the Laugh Factor. I ran into him. I said hi, but that was it. I never really got a chance to talk.

[Charlie Sheen]

So you did have have a moment. Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Ye. It was. He was just leaving the stage. He was outside, and he had some thank you. Hot MILF with him.

[Charlie Sheen]

Awesome. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

You go, Rodney.

[Charlie Sheen]

Why not? Why not?

[Dan Cummins]

It was probably his wife. He's. His wife is. Who donated us these. These handwritten notes and also the photograph of him, too. It's pretty cool. It's just there's a few guys. Guys like that, that, you know, without them, you always wonder, like, where would comedy be? Like, where would it ever turn up? Like, so many people like Prior and him and Lenny Bruce. So many people that just, like, changed everything.

[Charlie Sheen]

Carlin.

[Dan Cummins]

Carlin, yeah. So many people just changed Kinison.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

They just changed the whole thing. But Dangerfield was one of the rare ones that introduced new comics to people like those. That's where everybody found out about Kinison. So everybody found out about Dice Clay, Don Marrera, Lenny Clark, all these guys. Robert Schimmel. They all started out on the Rodney Dangerfield HBO comedy specials.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

So he. He would have, like.

[Dan Cummins]

He would, like, have his favorite comedians. He would just have, like, a show where he would, like, introduce his favorite.

[Charlie Sheen]

Comedians, but he'd have to scout them at the clubs.

[Dan Cummins]

He would go see Him.

[Charlie Sheen]

So he'd just go out and he.

[Dan Cummins]

Had his own club in New York City. Fields.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

But he was, you know, he was interested in promoting comedy too. You know, just a amazing guy. That's such a cool moment you had with him.

[Charlie Sheen]

I can still, I can see it. I mean, it's like, it's. There's nothing tricky about that memory, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

What was it like being with your dad while he's filming Apocalypse Now?

[Charlie Sheen]

It was. There's a lot of that in the book.

[Dan Cummins]

How old were you?

[Charlie Sheen]

I was, I was. I went there as a 10 year old. Yeah. I had my 11th birthday there. Spent a combined total of eight or nine months there. And that, that was going back and forth, you know, it was, it was, it's just, it was, it wasn't just another country, it was another planet. You know, we'd seen, you know, different parts of the world traveling with him, you know, Mexico, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, places like that, you know. But then you get to the Philippines and it was just, you just got a sense that, wow, this is all going on at the same time that we've been in Malibu, like. Right. Kind of, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Having fun and just doing cool. And, and so you visit a place like that and get in the middle of it and, and, and engage in, in this entirely. Just this, this. Just a new, such a surreal reality. And then. Oh, wait a minute, they're here to make a movie. And it's about a film that. It's, it's. It's about a. It's a film about a war that and barely ended like a year ago, right?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

14 months ago when it's Saigon fall is 75, right?

[Dan Cummins]

I think so, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And they're, I mean, it was like right at the tail end of it. And so, yeah, it was. We, you know, we were able to do enough stuff like recreationally. You know, there was a lake and you could water ski, you could fish, you could do those kind of things if you didn't want to go to the set with dad. But once you went and saw the set where dad was, you didn't give a fuck about water sports or fish or anything. Because what, what, what, what they built and what they were trying to create was, was, was mind blowing because, you know, Coppola built Kurt's compound out of practical materials. It wasn't like, you know, like plaster covered chicken wire and rebar. These were like, you know, two ton boulders they brought in and started stacking in the jungle and you know, and then a Lot of it would start sinking. Couldn't build a foundation in a riverbank. Right, right. But then just the mix of people and the talent and Dennis Hopper and Brando and Duvall and, and it just, it was, every day felt completely unique. There was not, there was no. You, you'd go to the set and you were going to see something completely different than what you saw the day before. It was, it was wild.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And, and I, I gravitated towards this gentleman named Fred Blau who I mentioned in the book. He was the, he was the key makeup artist, you know, FX guy. And so he was building all the prosthetics for all the carnage you see in the movie. You know, so I'd walk into a shop and there's the arms and legs and heads and. But I knew it was all fake. You know, as a 10 year old, when you start seeing how it's made and, and you know, so, so gore, I think I write in the book was never gore in movies, was never emotional. It was, it was technical, you know, but, but, but still kept me really curious about, about how it was done and, and just the, the, the, the, the, the artisans behind it that, that could create those effects.

[Dan Cummins]

How long were you over there for?

[Charlie Sheen]

A total of eight months. Wow. Maybe nine. Yeah. And it was, it was three, 10 years old. Yeah, it was three at first and then maybe four at first. And then we went back and then dad has the heart attack and then we went back and stayed for like another four, four months. Yeah, so, yeah, it was. And, and people say so, you know, growing up on sets, you must have like dreamed about being an actor. I'm like, yeah, until I got to the set that almost killed my dad. You know, that's not a job you're just gonna like wrap your arms around and say, when can I start? You know?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

But it also, just, the scope of the filmmaking was really exciting and you know, I didn't really understand it as a 10 or 11 year old, but I knew, I knew there was something about it that required a much, you know, closer look. And I had a very keen interest in just, you know, what it, what it, what would it take to look like, build this, you know, this reality, this fake reality? Oh, but wait, the subject is based in reality, but everything else around it is fake.

[Dan Cummins]

So that's a very strange experience for a 10 year old.

[Charlie Sheen]

It is, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Such a grand scale.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

When it becomes what Apocalypse now became.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Because it was like a culturally defining moment.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

I mean, it was. And It's a movie that. That. It kind of eclipses all other war movies.

[Charlie Sheen]

It does.

[Dan Cummins]

It really does.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. I don't. I don't think there's been a film like it before or since. I think.

[Dan Cummins]

No, it's a true masterpiece.

[Charlie Sheen]

It really is. Yeah. And. And. And there's no computers. There's nothing generated. It's all had to be there on the day. And when you watch that, the. The. You know, when. When. When. When Kilgore Takes the beachhead, that chopper assault. I mean, when you look at the. Just what they had, what they committed to.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

To bring that to the screen is just. It's impossible. And then you see some of the documentary stuff about. He was like, those were on loan from the Philippine Army. And then like midday, they had to go fight the rebels somewhere else. And they told Francis, we gotta leave now with the choppers. And he's like, I have 18 cameras set up. The whole. The river is filled with bombs. Where are you going? We'll see you tomorrow.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Stuff like that. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Pretty wild.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. But that must have, like. For you, like, to eventually become an actor in Platoon, that had to be kind of surreal.

[Charlie Sheen]

How does that happen?

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

How does that happen?

[Dan Cummins]

How does that happen 11 years later?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or 10. Yeah, yeah. Because I did. I did Platoon at 20. Right. Yeah. So how do I go back to the same country 10 years later? 10 years later with the same subject. Right, right. Narrate the thing and then it. It. It's elevated to be on par with the one.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

The Debt.

[Dan Cummins]

Only films that gets mentioned in the same breath as Apocalypse now when it comes to war films.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a much bigger fan of Apocalypse than Platoon, and that is primarily about just the scope and the complication and just what, you know, difficulty factor.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Difficulty factor. It took forever. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

How many years did take. It take. It was like eight or nine years. Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

It. I don't know when Francis conceived. Came out in 79. I think it did. It come out in August of 79.

[Dan Cummins]

How many. Let's just Google. How many years?

[Charlie Sheen]

August 79.

[Dan Cummins]

How many years did it take to make Apocalypse Now? I think it went way over budget.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, it did. Oh, yeah. And by today's standards, that's like, you know, that's like a Fox Searchlight budget.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. You know, and Laurence Fishburne was like, what? How old was he?

[Charlie Sheen]

He started the film at 14, but.

[Dan Cummins]

It came out in 79. Originally due to be released on Coppola's 38th birthday of April 77. So it took two extra years.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

And imagine when was it. When did the. The project start? I mean, varying times of discussions. Casting started 2-26-76 is when Steve McQueen dropped out. So it's not as many years as I thought it was.

[Charlie Sheen]

They shot with Harvey Keitel for a few weeks as Willard. Did you know that?

[Dan Cummins]

No.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. And then Francis just. What? He made the wrong choice. Harvey was doing it, you know, whatever he could. But Francis just saw it differently and had met dad during the Godfather auditions and said, let me meet with Marty.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

You can tell people that don't really know my dad that well call him Marty. I run into people on the street and they're like, hey, give. Give Marty my best. And I'm like, who the fuck is Marty? People call him Martin. No, they know I'm better, you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Well, people that pretend to know someone always like to throw a Y on the end of it. Makes it tight.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting, you know? Yeah. So I would be like, chucky, you're still Charlie. Right? Right.

[Dan Cummins]

But I would be like, Joey.

[Charlie Sheen]

Joey. My gosh, I could never think of you as a Joey. Yeah, no, but. But imagine this with Apocalypse that. So I spend that much time, there's all that shit that happened. I even brought home, like, props and things, you know, severed hands and if ago jewelry and all. All this cool shit. Right. And all these great stories and then didn't have anything tangible to back any of it. I mean, mom took a lot of photos, but, like, nobody could go to the theater and then see. Oh, yeah, Charlie talked about that. Oh, yeah, he talked. He was there that day. Everybody had to wait. When you're that age, you know, waiting two or three years, like waiting a decade. Right? So that was. That was kind of a trip. But when I saw it at the center of Abedome in 70 millimeter, you know, and it's like, man, when those choppers, when you hear them, you hear just. They're. They're. They're. They're all around you. A film will never open like that again and have that kind of an impact. I mean, did you see it at the Dome when you first saw it?

[Dan Cummins]

No, no, I don't remember where I first saw it. First saw it, I think on a regular TV at home.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, because. Because I was too little to watch it in 79. Is that what it was? Maybe I saw it when it came out on HBO or something like that for the first time. But when I really got into it was when I got A home theater. And I got surround sound and I got Apocalypse Redo. Apocalypse Now. Redo the newly mastered one.

[Charlie Sheen]

Got it. Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

It's fucking sensational.

[Charlie Sheen]

So you finally had that experience.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, my God, it was so good. I was like, this movie is wild. It's so well done, and it's just so epic. Like, for you to have been there live while they were putting that together and then to see it all pieced together, I mean, that had to be an insane experience.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, and a lot of it was a surprise seeing it on the screen, because, like, I talk about in the book, not so much in the doc. It was hard to get close to the action on a apocalypse because the way the sets were constructed, because of the way, you know, Francis had everything lit, it was super claustrophobic, like in, you know, Kurtz's Temple and Compound and places like that. And. And it was also dangerous to be on that set.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know what I'm saying? Snakes and. And just, like, a lot of weird people, you know? And so, yeah, Francis was just like, come one, come all, you know, Know.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

But. But, yeah. So then it's like, I wasn't there for any. Any of the Chopper Assault. I was. I could see Hopper at a distance in that outfit with those cameras, walking with that. I couldn't hear what he was saying. So to then see that scene where, you know, dad first steps off the boat at the compound, and Hopper has that incredible monologue.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, you got the cigarettes. That's what I've been dreaming about. And it's just like. Like. So to have that. That kind of. That. That. To have been there that long and still be a completely fresh cinematic experience was a trip.

[Dan Cummins]

Did you ever get Imposter syndrome? Like, when you were doing Platoon, did you ever get, like, how the. Am I here? Because it's so quick between you being 10, right, being in the jungle while they're filming Apocalypse now to you starring in Platoon. Had you settled into that or were you ever like, how the fuck do I deserve this? One of the things that Jon Cryer says in the documentary.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

He might be on.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's very insightful. Yeah, it's very insightful.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. He said that you probably feel like you don't deserve all this, so you fuck it all up.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure. He's not wrong. He's not wrong, but. And then I. I had a comment, some interview the other day, and I said, well, what the fuck, John? You kind of, like, laid that on me like, you know, a couple decades sooner. Man. Great advice. However, a little late.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah, but you can't tell anybody that. They have to kind of figure it out.

[Charlie Sheen]

They do. But the thing about Platoon and when it happened, the good news is that I had done enough film work. You know, not. Not like super memorable films, except maybe parts of Red Dawn, I think, are pretty memorable. Just, you know, what the film kind of, you know, what it stood for, what it was about. I think parts of Bueller were kind of memorable. First Bueller. Right, sure. But. But yeah, so. So was just sort of getting more comfortable in front of a camera. Camera. More comfortable sort of, you know, being able to think on film and actually, you know, breathe on film. I know that sounds kind of like actor schmactory, but it's actually a thing because you only talk about controlling your breath in every other area of life. Sure, right. And the same is true as an actor. Yeah, for sure. Even doing the show, Even doing two and a half for that first scene, I was. I was usually off. I was usually, like, about to make an entrance from somewhere, and I'd be back there and chain smoking Marlboro Reds and just trying to figure out the first scene. But then when you'd hear the. You'd hear the. You'd hear the stage go quiet. Right. Someone yells, you know, speeding sound market. And then if I could get that last breath to go to the bottom, I knew this first take was going to be awesome. When the breath stopped about, like, at the sternum, I was.

[Dan Cummins]

Shallow breath.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. Then you can't. Then you're ch. And then the thing. And then. Yeah. And then that first take is just a pancake, which sucks because that's the first time the audience is gonna see it.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You kind of want that one to be, you know, if there's a cute girl in the crowd, that's the one you want her watching. Yeah. Not the second one where she's already heard the fucking jokes. Right now you're just doing whatever.

[Dan Cummins]

Right now you're like, oh, this show sucks.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. The live performance thing is weird because they don't really do it anymore. I mean, I don't think there's very many shows that still do that kind of a sitcom in front of a live audience.

[Charlie Sheen]

Cameras. There's very few. I think Tim Allen show still does.

[Dan Cummins]

What is that on? Is that on Fox?

[Charlie Sheen]

I think it's abc. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

So he still does a traditional.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. Because a guy I worked with, friend of mine is on that writing staff.

[Dan Cummins]

God, they used to be all over the television.

[Charlie Sheen]

I know.

[Dan Cummins]

There used to be tons of them.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, I think Chuck's new show on Netflix, it's called Leanne Lorraine. Shit. Leanne. Yeah. I think that that's a live audience, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

Okay, so they're still doing some of them. Yeah, they're fun. It's fun when. When it works, you know?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's like, it's. It's a missing genre in today's culture.

[Charlie Sheen]

You're right.

[Dan Cummins]

Most of what was on late at night.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

At night time.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

When you got done having dinner.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Sit down and watch Friends or you would sit down and watch Seinfeld or Two and a Half Men or, you know, Comfort View. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We. My family binge watched Big Bang Theory. I never watched it when it was on the air. We binge watched it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Seriously.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a good show. Yeah, they were funny. Show it. I was like, ah, it's a corny sitcom. It's good show.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right on.

[Dan Cummins]

Solid show.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right on. Yeah. That kid. Kid, that. That young man, Jim, right. Had some of the most complicated dialogue that anybody's ever been saddled with, ever.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. He's the first autistic star of an action or of a sitcom.

[Charlie Sheen]

There you go. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Where you're kind of celebrating his emotional disconnection.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. But delivering it like Rain man, you know, and just with laser precision. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a really well written show. It's very funny. That guy, Chuck Lord, how many hits that guy's had? A ton of hits.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Maybe more than anybody, probably. Sitcom world.

[Charlie Sheen]

Probably.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You guys are friends again.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. So am I. So am I. No, that. That sucked, having that out there, you know? You know, I did finally actually remember that fucking thing. And I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna.

[Dan Cummins]

Okay.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It's the other component to that freaking tour, to that meltdown, to that thing. There was a moment when I was only in rehab for, like, I don't know, three weeks or a month. It wasn't like one of those extended stays. It was just like a.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, just like a quick little. Quick little. Yeah, like a spin drive, whatever they call it. And I got the call. We want to. We want to renegotiate the giant contract for season eight and nine, you know, And I was on the phone, I said, I. I don't. I don't think so. They're like, what, you don't think you're gonna get paid? I'm like, no, I don't. I don't. Think, I don't think. I don't think we should do it. I'm not. I think seven is like, you know, mantle war seven. Some other cool sevens, you know, I don't think. I think seven is like plenty. I think we've. I think we've told all the stories that we can mine from the. That. From that Malibu house on the beach with those people. They're like, no, no, you understand, man, this is when it all, like, this is when it turns into like a legacy play for your kids and their kids and that. And. And then the part they always leave out is an. And our cut. Yeah, and our cut.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, that's the big part.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah. And I said on the phone, and Mark and I have talked about that, talked to me on Mark Berg, my manager, and I said, mark, if I go back there, man, it's going to go really, really fucking bad. I just know it. He's like, well, you're projecting that. I said, I'm not projecting shit, man. I'm just smart enough to know how I feel about it. Now. Got a little bit of clarity in this month. I'm in the thing. I said if I go back there, I got a bad feeling.

[Dan Cummins]

Mark, why going back to work would send you off the rails?

[Charlie Sheen]

Just that I had run up against a thing that I had lost passion for the show. I'd lost passion for the process.

[Dan Cummins]

Okay, so that if you went and just did it just for the money, you would find some ways to stimulate yourself.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That I would have to do something to enhance.

[Dan Cummins]

I said that about a lot of guys that got caught on shows that sucked. I knew a lot of guys who got caught on shows where they were getting paid, but they did not like the show. And it was like a bad sitcom. And those guys all went crazy. Those guys all started doing a lot of drugs or they started spending too much money or. Or something. They did something to distract themselves because they did not like what they were doing and they. They didn't feel satisfied, right? Yeah, but they were getting so much money, right? They're like, what am I gonna do? I'm getting a hundred thousand dollars a week. I'm like, right, God, yeah. What do you do? You can't quit.

[Charlie Sheen]

I was. I was making 54,000 an hour. That's pre taxes.

[Dan Cummins]

So was I. I said no to season eight and nine. I'd be like, do I have a dress right?

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, I'll work. Have to do Dangerfield's robe at that point.

[Dan Cummins]

Let's go.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, but no, that, that was after I. I got kind of crowbarred into it. You know, why not crowbar? I had to ultimately say, yes, I gotta own that. You know, but it was just, I was just the wrong guy in that moment in that pocket of time to like give that much fucking money to man.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know?

[Dan Cummins]

Right, right.

[Charlie Sheen]

And like I'd buy a bunch of cars and then invite a bunch of girls over and then just say, pick one.

[Dan Cummins]

And then you did that other thing where you had that other show after that that you got paid like a ton of money in advance for, right?

[Charlie Sheen]

You talking about anger management?

[Dan Cummins]

Yes.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, I was supposed to get. It was called a 1090.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. It was a crazy scenario.

[Charlie Sheen]

How they suck you into that is they say, look, you're not going to get a ton on the front side, but you're gonna be, you know, you're gonna own a third of the show. You're like 40, 37, 38% of the show in perpetuity. So we're gonna do 100 episodes. And it's the south park model that was the first 1090 that really just blew it up and everybody got fucking rich. So you do these 10 episodes, you do a 10 episode pilot, and then if you hit. If the average number of those 10 episodes. Episodes comes in at like, I don't know, like a, like a. Above a 4 or like a 51 or something that it's like a share. Right. Then it activates the next 90. And so then you're doing those 90 to have a sellable syndication package that will just go all over the world and, you know, do what syndicate sitcoms do. And so you've done it, you know, and you know when you say not a lot on, on the front side, you're still, you know, still getting a buck 50 an app, you know, 200. That's pretty good money. Right? But it's not. But you kind of, you kind of eat it on that side, knowing that it's an investment for.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

The other thing to pay gangbusters.

[Dan Cummins]

So you did, you guys, you did the 10 episodes and then you got to do all of them.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

So you wound up doing 100.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

But you did him in a short, a short period of time.

[Charlie Sheen]

Two and a half years. That's crazy. I know, I know. Yeah. I was not ready to go back to work. Yeah. And that's the thing I talk about in the book. The only reason I did, because I wanted to show those guys across town that I was horrible again.

[Dan Cummins]

You know?

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. And that is not, that is not any way to. Any mindset to like lead the troops. And it, you know, again, it started pretty cool. I did the tan, I was great, you know, doing some pretty good work. And the shows were smart and funny and. And then we got into that 90 and it was about, it was about 20. No, what am I saying is probably like, like nine or 11 into it. I started feeling exactly the same shit.

[Dan Cummins]

That I felt on two and a half.

[Charlie Sheen]

Going past that point, I knew my enthusiasm and passion had had a. Had an expiration date.

[Dan Cummins]

You couldn't manufacture it.

[Charlie Sheen]

I tried, but I couldn't. I didn't, I didn't like the show enough. You know, I loved the people I was working with, you know, from, from the writers crew to the actor. They were terrific.

[Dan Cummins]

You didn't like the final product?

[Charlie Sheen]

I didn't. Yeah. And I didn't. I stopped caring. But I still, you know, had enough dough to keep the lifestyle and all that other fun shit going on and, and just stayed way too fucking high to really engage in this thing. I mean, I was doing this thing, Joe, where I was partying, you know, hitting the fucking pipe. Either girls or porn or both or who? You know, whoever showed up. Yeah. Fucking yeah. Hey, come on in, Come on in. There's plenty to go around. And then there's this thing. I think I felt like I was time traveling from like 1am to like 7. Felt like 11, I don't know, 15 minutes. Whereas, you know, nine to midnight felt normal. Wow. We had plenty of time to do everything. And then like the, the hours I really needed to like, you know, settle in and enjoy those just vanished.

[Dan Cummins]

And then you're back to work.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, I got someone banging on my door, dude, you're late. What the fuck? And I'm still fucking sideways.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

So I'd pop a couple shots or like half a Xanax or something and I said, oh, I just need. And I would literally do this thing. It was a 15 minute, 20 minute nap where I would just hit the pillow. I'd try to meditate with a body just vibrating from crack all night, trying to meditate. At that point, I'm trying to fucking time travel. I'm trying to levitate, right? But I could feel, okay, I've got, I've generated some calmness. And then I would hit the shower and I would, I'd be in the shower and I'd say, okay, I only have to navigate from this shower to the next shower. And that's about 11, maybe 12 hours. It was a shower to shower. Remember that commercial, like in the 70s, wasn't there a. Like a deodorant or. Yeah, something called Shower to Shower.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, like, it lasted from one shower to the next.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. So I'm trying to last from one shower to the next, man. No shit. And then. But I'd get to work and then have that midday drop off. And I wasn't hitting the pipe at work, but I needed to keep some, some fuel in the engine. So I'd be, you know, I start drinking and then, man, people look at sitcoms like, oh, they're out there having a fun time, man. It is super fucking complicated. Well, you've done them, right? It's like, it's like a dance, isn't it? It's like a. It's like a choreographed thing. And so it is hard enough to do and to do well. Completely focused and with all your shit intact, right? You start getting over here and trying to be that specific. Just with marks, with jokes, with timing, with other people. And then a lot of my energy is going to. Trying to disguise, like, the condition I'm really in, you know, and trying to make excuses, right? Oh, I had a med mix up today. Med mix up. I'm on two pills. They're the same fucking thing at the same time every day. There's no med mix up. You know, it's like, what are we doing? And so, yeah, and then that turns into that thing where you just Then they start getting behind and I would just be like, I'll just. Sorry for the overtime. I'll just pay for it. And, you know, they should, they should have not taken the money. They should have said, we're shutting down. You need to fucking go. Go. Go get well, or go get just a little better than what you're showing up as. And so that show kind of never really had a chance to be anything, really anything special, you know, because I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really care about it. And the thing that sucks about that, looking back, it's like, think about all the energy and the hard work that all those other people put into it and committed to it because I said yes.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. You know, and there's also. There's a bunch of people that were rooting for you because they, they saw what happened with Two and a Half Men. It was a big public disaster. You leave, is his career ruined. Oh, no, look, he's got another show. Oh, Charlie's back.

[Charlie Sheen]

But did anybody Even say, okay, so hold on, what did he do between that, you know, after that last swan dive into the volcano that we all watched, and then he's on the, he's back, he's on another show. Like, what did he do between then and there?

[Dan Cummins]

Well, the narrative on you was, as an outsider was that you were one of the rare guys who could party like that but still pull it off and have a career.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And I think your ex wife had said that, that she never worried about you. You would always land on your feet because you were very talented and you were also very loved, you know.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you, thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Which is one of the reasons why people embraced you when you were talking about how much crack you were doing, you know, when you were saying all that people there was, they weren't mad at you. Like, he's partying, you know, it was, it was a very odd time where so many people who don't admit that they party, you know, because of their job or because of whatever, they try to like, keep it hot in a. Hidden under. Under wraps.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

And you were doing a live interview with this lady and you're, you're talking to her about smoking rocks and, and she was flabbergasted. Like you could tell.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

She did not expect that kind of candor.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

With discussion of illicit drugs.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

It was just like nobody ever done that before.

[Charlie Sheen]

Well, she asked, I mean.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. But nobody ever embraced it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Everybody else is like, well, you know, it's a terrible time in my life. I was, I got so low, I was doing crack cocaine.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. Comes from a place of shame.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you didn't have any shame? I didn't, no.

[Charlie Sheen]

Because I'd watched something like a couple days before I sat down with Andrea Canning and it was this old interview with Charlie Gibson on, on some special they did for abc. Right. I don't even think. It wasn't a gmap. It was like a more in depth one of those exposes they do, you know, and it was me coming out of rehab and I remember watching myself and just being such a. I was like, that guy's a fucking sissy, man. That guy's a fucking pussy. What's wrong with him? Look at him. All that shame, all that embarrassment, like, no, no, no, we're not doing that anymore. So that, that got locked in. Oh yeah. I remember how, I just remember how I felt watching me doing it their way.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Know. And then, you know, I got all, I got the brain full of, you know, Nuclear crazy cream that I'm a fucking, you know, covering myself in. And that's what, two Ks, that's like the donuts, Right? Right? And. Yeah, man. And. And. And, you know where the material came from, right? Those slogans and all that stuff? No, was Brian Wilson.

[Dan Cummins]

Wilson from the Beach Boys?

[Charlie Sheen]

No, the. Brian Wilson pitcher for the Giants. The guy they called the Beard.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

I was on the phone with him, like, the day. A couple days before that, because Tony and I. Tony Todd and I were watching baseball highlights, and I was like, wow, this guy looks. This guy's a trip. Tony, get him on the phone, right? The next day, I'm on the phone with him. I think he was just trying to give me a pep talk. He was like, hey, man, just know that guys like us, you know, we're not. We're not. We're not like everybody else, you know, We're. We're different, man. We got. We got. You know, we got tiger blood running through our veins. We got Adonis DNA. We got, you know, we're. We. We don't know how to lose, man, because we're always fucking winning, right? So I hear all this, and he's probably thinking, cool, man. I just kind of inspired him maybe just to get to the next moment, you know, that stuff went in there, man, and it stayed on a loop. And. And I sat down, and the interview doesn't start like that, which is a trip. I'm trying to keep it together. I'm trying to give her the stuff she needs to. Like, maybe. I don't even know, what was the thrust of that story? Being fired or some shit?

[Dan Cummins]

I don't remember.

[Charlie Sheen]

So. But there's a moment that's not on film. And Andrea can't deny this. She makes a crack about these two girlfriends that I'm living with, right? And. And expects me to just like. Like let it just. Just, you know, brush it off and then answer her next question. And I said, hold on a second. I said, that was really rude. She's like, which part? I'm like, well, what, you just. How you just address them? You owe them an apology? And she was like, okay, I'm paraphrasing some of this, right? But that. This is kind of. This is the tone of it. And so how did she address them? I felt that they were dismissed as just, like, porn. Porn chicks, you know, because one was a porn chick, the other was not natty. So she kind of got rolled into that, right? Unfairly, you know? And so. So then they, you know, she Andrea's like, oh, my God. Okay. You know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean anything by that, you know, But I'm over here, you know, with the thing, and. And I'm not. I'm not letting it go. I asked you to apologize. We should have been past it. Now I'm stewing. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Ramped up now.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's when it turned into. And then I start hearing Brian's stuff, and I'm like, I don't know, man. I. Tiger blood. And. And then it all just. And then it. It got away from me, and I. And I couldn't pull it back. I couldn't pull it back. And then everybody's like, okay, well, that was different. I mean, it's kind of interesting and unique and whatever, man. Well, well, let's just. Let's. Let's, you know, let's just have a quiet night and. And. And. And we'll see how that plays out, you know? And I wake up into a world of not. Not the world I said good night to six hours earlier, and my friends are banging on the door. People are, you know, sending me, you know, videos and stuff. And he's like, dude, the fucking. The world's on fire with your shit, man. I'm like, all right, what does that mean? And there's, like. There's folk songs and rap songs. People, like, marching in the streets, and there's already T shirts, and there's this. It's just. It has just gone. It exploded.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And so it's not like I could jump on my roof with a bullhorn and say, all right, everybody. Okay, let's just, you know, Sea Fighters.

[Dan Cummins]

Were saying they had tiger blood. They were joking around about it.

[Charlie Sheen]

See? Yeah. I mean, it got. It got.

[Dan Cummins]

It got away from.

[Charlie Sheen]

Penetrated me.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

It achieved penetration.

[Dan Cummins]

Well, no one had ever done an interview like that before.

[Charlie Sheen]

I did. I didn't. I. Yeah, I. I wasn't thinking about that in the moment. I was just pissed. And I wasn't gonna be Sissy Charles right from the 90s, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

It was like this whole convergence of all these elements and all these emotions and all these feelings and. And also the, you know, resentment I had in myself, you know, and just like, all right, I'm just. Just gonna pick some targets. And. And. And. And, you know, would have been nice had it been sort of. If I could have just sort of been herded just kind of, you know, away from it, you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Have you ever thought of what your life would be like if you didn't do that interview.

[Charlie Sheen]

I. I've started to. No, I've started. I've started to try to walk into that village. Right. But as soon as I take a look around, none of it really makes sense because it. It's. I. I can't really imagine it. You know, what do you think it would. I mean, what would. It's hard to kind of even put those pieces together.

[Dan Cummins]

I wonder if you had ever would have gotten sober.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting. You mean today's sober? Sober, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Today's sober.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sober. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You. You might have had to have that complete chaos, tailspin, free fall, crash.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Publicly.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

To just eventually, like, gather your together and go, okay, Right. All right. Time to learn and grow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Obviously, that wasn't smart. Let's do it differently.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right?

[Dan Cummins]

Let's get it together and step by step, day by day. And look, here you are almost nine years later, almost eight years later.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

That's you. You always wonder, like, maybe you have to have. That was your rock bottom moment, and it was public, you know, the whole world got to see it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like a full cleanse. Yeah. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Just a purging of all of it. And, you know, and still you have to battle with the. This reinforcement because now everybody is loving the fact that, you know, you're winning, winning and that, you know, you're talking about how much crack you smoke and how crazy it is, and you got all these hot girls, and everybody's like, he's winning, he's winning. And so now there's no incentive at all to get healthy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Which is kind of nuts. And not only that, financially, you're kind of. It kind of helps you to be, like, a little off the rails. And so you're kind of known for that, you know, like, and then you have this big tour and everybody's coming out to see you.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Which. Which was crazy for you to do. Like, the first one where you did it without comedians was just bananas.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, it was a complete train wreck. Yeah, it was a disaster.

[Dan Cummins]

But you guys pulled it together, and that was like, kind of the story of, like, your career. When things have fallen apart, people want you to pull it together. So even though you had that disaster show and everybody knew it was a.

[Charlie Sheen]

Disaster show in Detroit, people were still.

[Dan Cummins]

Coming out to see the other ones.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I. I had an. The option after the Detroit massacre of flying to Chicago or taking the bus, the tour bus. Right. And I said, I need. I need those seven or eight hours on the bus, and they're like, why? I said, because I'm going to rewrite the entire show. And I think. I think Natty was on that trip. I think maybe Rick. I know Shady was on anyway, and I just. I just. There was a place, you know, room in the back, and I just kind of barricaded myself with a pad of paper and a pen and just went to town and just sort of started trying to reshape it. And when I got to Chicago, they were expecting all this, all the special effects we needed from that Gar. You know, all that garbage. I said, we traveled with none of it. I said, here's the new show. They're like, you sure about this? I'm like, just trust me. And that. And unfortunately, that's the nutrition night where it got applauded and kept the train on the tracks was Chicago. You know, but isn't that weird? I had the wherewithal, like, in the middle of all that, and they still had enough. Enough something. Enough of that thing to just. Maybe that's just pride at that point.

[Dan Cummins]

Certainly. It's also. That's the impact of public humiliation.

[Charlie Sheen]

Like, thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, enough.

[Charlie Sheen]

How about that?

[Dan Cummins]

Time to get this fucking done.

[Charlie Sheen]

That.

[Dan Cummins]

Get this thing back on track.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And it was. It was just. It was. The curtain comes up and there's two chairs, and I have a moderator, and it's just a conversation. Imagine that.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Didn't reinvent anything.

[Dan Cummins]

No.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, and I. Oh. Oh. I wrote a letter is what it was. Dear Chicago. And it's like this whole thing, you know, including them. And. Yeah. So I got them. I kind of got them back on my side, and then we sat down. Down. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

People realized also you were figuring this tour thing out on the fly.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It was essentially. It was 21 cities in, like, 24 days with no act. That's what it was, man.

[Dan Cummins]

So I know you had Jeff Ross.

[Charlie Sheen]

Jeff Ross, Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Who's great at that. Master at off the Cuff.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. He showed up and really.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah. Perfect guy for that.

[Charlie Sheen]

He put a shape on it.

[Dan Cummins]

Yes. And then you had Russell on some of them, too, right?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

Who's also a master at off the Cuff.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes. And he. And he was so relieved that the two chairs had shown up because that's when he joined us in Canada. Yeah. No, he was terrific.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Russell's awesome.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. You know, the first night, sitting with him, some dude. Like, what's like the Canadian version of, like, a quarter? What's their dollar? A loony. Okay. But that's a dollar.

[Dan Cummins]

I think so.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. Is that the heavy one?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Someone threw it at him?

[Charlie Sheen]

No, at me. Like, we're in the chair for maybe five minutes, and I get. From the balcony, I get hit with one right here. Oh. And it just. It was like getting punched by, like, someone with a skinny metal hand, you know? And. And I just had to. I had to kind of pause into that, and they got the guy thrown out, but I just thought, wow, I could have lost an eye.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Russell could have lost an eye. And it was just like, wow. All right.

[Dan Cummins]

Also, pretty good shot.

[Charlie Sheen]

Really good shot.

[Dan Cummins]

Guy throws a looney from the balcony and he hits it in the head.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, that's.

[Dan Cummins]

That's impressive. It is, because that's not an aerodynamic thing.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's not. No. You have to kind of factor in. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a lot of flipping of the air.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like a boomerang or something.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, it's a Frisbee. It's a little tiny Frisbee.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. So anyway, so that's. There were just moments like that that. That I. I guess just little cosmic reminders that not everybody was on my side.

[Dan Cummins]

Right, right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Which is important, too.

[Charlie Sheen]

Hey, can I hit the bathroom?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, yeah. We couldn't actually wrap it up. We're getting close.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

You want to wrap it up?

[Charlie Sheen]

Can we just touch on a couple.

[Dan Cummins]

Things before we do come back?

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay, cool.

[Dan Cummins]

Should we bring this up? I guess we have to. So this just happened. We just found out that Charlie Kirk got shot.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's awful.

[Dan Cummins]

And is he dead? No, I don't think so.

[Charlie Sheen]

That's what was just.

[Dan Cummins]

One of the guys out there just.

[Charlie Sheen]

Said in the lobby was just.

[Dan Cummins]

I was looking. I've been looking. I. I haven't seen anything that said confirmed.

[Charlie Sheen]

Whoa. Murder for having a different opinion from somebody else. Yeah. Different ideology from somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Beliefs that didn't align. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. Rest in peace, Jesus. 27 years old.

[Dan Cummins]

Maybe they even have a suspect. I don't know. That's why I don't. I don't. I'm literally trying to check it all on Twitter, and it's all.

[Charlie Sheen]

Nobody deserves. He doesn't deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

[Dan Cummins]

So. So were you saying that MSNBC had a crazy take on it? What was their take? I'm literally just reading Twitter, so I didn't see the video. I just saw people talking about tweets of it. I'll pull it up, though. And even now, they could have taken it down. It was a tweet or a video. I don't, I don't, I don't. I. I'm, you know, doing the show while I'm trying to figure. Right. No, I understand. I think they were live on the air and people clipped what they were talking about. It's not a tweet. It's not on their Twitter account or anything. So it's someone's hot take. Live in the moment. Yeah, that's a crazy take. Crazy take. Is that what was the take? That they deserved it? No, that's why I didn't want to pair. Right.

[Charlie Sheen]

Here you go.

[Dan Cummins]

Dave Portnoy reposted this. You found it right here.

[Charlie Sheen]

It. It's only 10 seconds shooting like this happens.

[Dan Cummins]

You can put the headphones on.

[Charlie Sheen]

You can hear. Again, emphasize what you just emphasized. We don't know any of the full details of this, that we don't know if this was a supporter shooting their gun off in celebration or so we have no idea.

[Dan Cummins]

But that's what the crazy thing was. Oh, that's it. Yeah. If it was a supporter shooting their gun off in celebration.

[Charlie Sheen]

What?

[Dan Cummins]

Someone shot their gun off in celebration and killed him?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. You shoot celebration, guns in the air.

[Dan Cummins]

Just what a crazy take. Like it might not have been someone assassinating someone for the wrong opinion.

[Charlie Sheen]

Huh? Why does something like that have to be spun their ideology? No, I know, but I'm just saying it's like, I mean, they want to.

[Dan Cummins]

Try to pin it on a Trump supporter with a crazy Trump supporter with a gun.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Going wacky. We don't know if it was a supporter shooting off a gun in salaries celebration because, you know, they do.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, Right.

[Dan Cummins]

A lot of folks are just constantly out there shooting off guns at large gatherings in celebration.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Fourth of July. You can't leave your house.

[Dan Cummins]

What the fuck?

[Charlie Sheen]

No, that. Is that, that. That's a. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

There's going to be a lot of people celebrating this. It's so scary. It's so dangerous, too, to, to, to celebrate or to in any way encourage this kind of behavior from human beings. He's not a violent guy who's talking. Talking to people on college campuses wasn't even particularly rude. He tried to be pretty reasonable with people.

[Charlie Sheen]

Everything I saw seemed reasonable.

[Dan Cummins]

He's a very intelligent guy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, whether you agree with him or don't, and there's a lot of stuff that I didn't agree with him on. That's fine. You're allowed to disagree with people without celebrating the fact they got shot.

[Charlie Sheen]

But you can't disrespect his passion. His.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, well, what you're supposed to do with a guy like that if you're opposing him is debate him.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Have a conversation where your, your argument is more compelling than his.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure.

[Dan Cummins]

That's what people should be celebrating. Discourse. You know, we used to do that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Do some homework and, and bring it to the table.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's horrible.

[Dan Cummins]

It's horrible. This podcast has been a lot about violence, man.

[Charlie Sheen]

It has. But now not this kind. No, I, I'm sorry. Not, not something so in the moment right now from someone this currently current.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

That, that, that we see and, and are, are, are, you know, aware of daily. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. I mean, he's one of those young influencers.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

This time from the right. Who is all over social media always doing these various shows and debating people and talking to people and giving speeches and.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure, yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

No one deserves this, folks. No one that has different opinions. No one deserves that.

[Charlie Sheen]

No.

[Dan Cummins]

This is horrible.

[Charlie Sheen]

No.

[Dan Cummins]

But I know people are going to celebrate it because this is a fucked up time and people have really fallen into this trap of us against them.

[Charlie Sheen]

But it's also gonna make people not want to be as courageous or not want to be as forthright with the things they believe. It's going to put people on guard.

[Dan Cummins]

It could, it also could, it could do the opposite.

[Charlie Sheen]

I get that. But there's also going to be that sort of ingrained thing now.

[Dan Cummins]

You're correct. Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you know, and just, you know, going through the whole New York thing, I just, you know, sometimes you're, know there's a crowd and it's all love. It's all love. And all they want is, you know, is your signature or a photo or this and that. But there's so much of those moments where you're spent looking down. You're looking down the entire time.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And I don't think anybody wants to shoot me. I don't think that that's kind of out in the world. Right. No, but it just, it's the type of shit that just lives in the back of one's mind. Yeah. Because how could it not?

[Dan Cummins]

How could it not?

[Charlie Sheen]

And then the thing like today, and you're like, okay, that, that's why it's in, it's, it's, it's in the back of our minds.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know.

[Dan Cummins]

Well, it's, you know, when we were talking about assassinations earlier, whether it's Kennedy or RFK or, you know, you think of them in the past, you think of them. Like you don't. When something happens in the current, like right now with this one with Charlie Kirk, it doesn't seem real. No, it seems very surreal.

[Charlie Sheen]

It does, it seems like it does.

[Dan Cummins]

It's going to take a long time before we reference this as something that happened. Like he. Oh, you remember he got shot and killed. Oh yeah. Like right now it's just doesn't seem real. It seems, it seems so crazy that just, it's not registering.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's not. No. Is, is he, is he a friend?

[Dan Cummins]

No, I met him once.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay.

[Dan Cummins]

I met him once at a gun range of all places.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. He was a nice guy when I met him.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

It's a fucked up time. People are so divided in this country. So divided. And there's so many people that love, they love that we're divided and they profit off that division and they stoke the fires and they do it for their own profit. And it's so fucking gross. It's so gross. And to encourage this kind of thing is really one of the most horrific things that you could do after someone dies horribly. Like this is celebrate.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's on. It's on.

[Dan Cummins]

It should be a wake up call for everybody. Like this is nuts. This is nuts.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, it's, it's unforgivable that, that to spend things like that. And because the people they're never thinking about is, is, is that person's family.

[Dan Cummins]

I think they just, that's just like default with those. They gaslight you by default.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

So immediately they try to find some reason why the, whatever the, the thing is, it's in the news is someone else's fault.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right. Of course.

[Dan Cummins]

It's just all gaslighting. And that's what they're paid to do. They're paid propagandists masquerading as the news. So weird.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, this is a, this is a, it's a, it's a dark day.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, it is. Well, one of things, two things is going to happen. Either people are going to realize how insane this is and we have to have a conversation about being able to have conversations.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Or it's going to get a lot worse. That's what's scary. Scare just could spark off some kind of a real violent conflict. You know that guy had a lot of fans.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

People love that guy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, I know.

[Dan Cummins]

And if they find out that he got killed for something that they vehemently oppose in the first place, it could send people over the Edge.

[Charlie Sheen]

It could. It could. Yeah. There's always that flashpoint moment in. In. In. In any. You know, in. In previous times. Like this.

[Dan Cummins]

Yep.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, it's. There's always that tipping point moment.

[Dan Cummins]

Like. Like the Rodney King film.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yep.

[Dan Cummins]

Right. Something just like. That's it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. You know, this also highlights just a little bit of perspective, like how lucky Trump is. Was.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, and it's just like Charlie didn't get the benefit of a head turn or a couple of. A couple of microns or millimeters or, you know, and it's just like, wow. Wow. Who. Who. Who decides that? Yeah. You know, that is just. This is.

[Dan Cummins]

The Trump thing is bananas.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

But they talk about clips his ear.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Because he makes a reference to something. Yeah. And then it's just. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

And then it clips his ear where if he didn't turn his head, he'd be dead, and it would have been on live on CNN.

[Charlie Sheen]

How do we know more about an assassination from 1963. Yeah. Than we do from one about. Yeah. Eight months ago? That one.

[Dan Cummins]

That's story's fucked. There's a lot of weird stuff in that story. There's a cell phone that was traveling because the metadata. They know. Cell phone was traveling from offices outside of the offices of the FBI in that area all the way to this guy multiple times. Imagine that he was 20 years old. His apartment was professionally scrubbed. There was no silverware in it. They had no social media presence. He, you know, was regularly trained. Training with, like, military guys. He was regularly training and shooting. Like, one guy had remembered him from a range.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right.

[Dan Cummins]

Like what, he was in a BlackRock commercial.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting.

[Dan Cummins]

Two years before.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Like what?

[Charlie Sheen]

His. His. His chosen rooftop is just kind of between the two quadrants that they're assigned to cover.

[Dan Cummins]

Not only that, it's just.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's just a blind spot.

[Dan Cummins]

The. The excuse for why they didn't have officers on that rooftop was it was too slow sloped. The slope was too steep, which made zero sense.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

Because he climbed up it. He was fine.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, he did.

[Dan Cummins]

What the are you talking about? It didn't make any sense. Not only that, the. The one where the snipers were perched had a steeper slope. Made no sense. No, it was nuts. They found that guy walking around the. The. The grounds a half an hour before the event with a rangefinder.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're not. If you're not on a golf course with a range finder.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Then you.

[Dan Cummins]

You know you're gonna shoot something.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what they're for. But it's just, man, it's, it, it sucks that, that to say things like, you know, the, the, the. These are the times we currently inhabit, you know, and, and that, that there's nothing. That is an absolutely factual statement. Yeah. And it sucks to have to, you know, to exist in. Inside of that, you know.

[Dan Cummins]

It's very strange, man.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's very strange.

[Dan Cummins]

Very strange.

[Charlie Sheen]

Very strange.

[Dan Cummins]

It's very strange. And, you know, we've talked about it a bunch of times, but it bears repeating. I think a lot of it is highlighted by bots. A lot of it is people are being inflamed online by people that aren't even real accounts.

[Charlie Sheen]

Interesting. See, I don't, I don't study any of that.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, there's a lot of that going on. I think it's a giant percentage of all online discourse where people are hating and saying mean things about people's political beliefs or anti Israel things or anti Palestine things or whatever. I just think a giant ton of that is foreign. Foreign governments who are running these bot farms.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

And it's been proven. They, they know for a fact China actually got caught recently. What was this? The Chat GPT thing? They were using chat. They were using OpenAI software. Chat GPT blocked a bunch of accounts from multiple countries that had suspicious activity. Yeah. And they were commenting on like blocking of US Aid money and a bunch of different, like, political subjects and. But what they're basically doing is just getting people to fight. Just. That's what they want. They want constant fighting. Constant in constant. Like we have to take action. We have to, you know, this constantly stoking the flames.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. Wow.

[Dan Cummins]

So it's not even organic. Some of it's organic for sure, but a lot of it is being enhanced by foreign governments, for sure. And probably some of it by our own government. What they did with the, with the Manson family, you think they stopped there? I think some of that kind of stuff isn't going on right now that we don't know about right now because there hasn't been a Tom o' Neill to write a book about it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Sure, sure. And then we also never know which stuff was the beta test for the, you know, for that. For that, you know, specific type of program or that specific type of op to be rolled out.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

And like where, you know. Okay, let's, let's, let's see how they react to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, hell, that worked like a charm. Okay, activate more of those. Was you know?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah. Jesus.

[Charlie Sheen]

How do we, how do we wrap this up on a positive note?

[Dan Cummins]

I don't think we can. No, I think it is what it is.

[Charlie Sheen]

It is what it is.

[Dan Cummins]

I think we just have to deal with that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Well, listen, man, it was great to finally actually meet you.

[Charlie Sheen]

This was amazing. It's a lot of fun.

[Dan Cummins]

Really enjoy talking to you.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Yeah, no, I, I, I think you'll notice now I, I, I always need a few minutes to get warmed up.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

Get settled in.

[Dan Cummins]

No, you seem cool right off the bat.

[Charlie Sheen]

No, thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Great stories, too. Jesus.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. My. Just my. Sometimes my brain, like we talked about. Yeah. You know, it wants to go somewhere else when I was trying to.

[Dan Cummins]

It's amazing your brain works as good as it does, considering all the things you've done to it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

If you think about it.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. There's that part.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, there's that part.

[Charlie Sheen]

Because people like, you know, hey, man, you should get some laser work on your face. I'm like, dude, I'm lucky this thing is still fucking attached.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

So go fuck yourself.

[Dan Cummins]

You actually look way better than you you've looked at a long time.

[Charlie Sheen]

Oh, right on. Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

The sobriety suits you. Really does.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

You look really healthy.

[Charlie Sheen]

You know, I took a page out of your book, a very specific page, and even if it's a rumor, it worked. I use a sauna blanket, right? This thing called Higher Dose. And I'm not sponsored by them. I just bought one and I fucking love it. I use it at home, and then I hear, hey, man, fucking Joe travels with his. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

I have one of those sauna blankets.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, but do you travel with it?

[Dan Cummins]

I do if I know that there's not gonna be a sauna.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. Okay. Okay. So I was.

[Dan Cummins]

A lot of times I'll just try to find a place that has a sauna.

[Charlie Sheen]

Okay. Yeah, I was like, well, it. If he's traveling with him, you definitely can, though.

[Dan Cummins]

It's good. They're great.

[Charlie Sheen]

I'm gonna travel with mine.

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sheen]

So I've had it on this trip. I, I traveled with. It's a pain in the ass. I'm lugging this rolling duffel and who cares? But so, so thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

It's worth it, though.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you for the idea. Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Those are great because those sauna blankets are great because they're portable and you could always just get it it in.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, Right.

[Dan Cummins]

I really genuinely prefer a real sauna if you have one, because I like to stretch out in the sauna, sure, it's the best time ever to stretch.

[Charlie Sheen]

But as far as time with the portable blanket is like, I tell people it's like a Bikram class without all the yelling and pain. Right. Do you get drenched in that?

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, sure. That's a lot of, what Bikram means is, you know, a lot of it is heat shock therapy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right.

[Dan Cummins]

You know, it's also the yoga and the exercises which are great. And also the fact that you're more pliable when you're really warm and heated up like that, which really helps. But a lot of what they're. There was actually a study that they were doing at Harvard. I don't know if they completed it, but they were doing it a couple years back about the benefits of hot yoga and whether they're comparable to the medical, the known medical benefits of sauna, which are pretty, pretty well documented.

[Charlie Sheen]

And, and what, what, what, what was the conclusion, Dan?

[Dan Cummins]

I don't know. I, I have to think it's got to be similar because I've been in both, you know, I've been in a lot of hot saunas and I've done a lot of hot yoga and that you, because of the exercise, I think you reach very similar body temperatures.

[Charlie Sheen]

Got it.

[Dan Cummins]

And you, your heart rate jacks up because you're so, you're so hot. You're, you know, you could barely cool yourself off with a glass of water when they let you a have sip, like in between things you're allowed to take a sip of water.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

But it's, it's real similar. And it's 90 minutes, you know, which is brutal. Yeah, you can get through a real good Bikram hot yoga class at the end of that, man, you're, you're good.

[Charlie Sheen]

You're, yeah, you're, you're gonna have a, you, you have a different day in front of you.

[Dan Cummins]

100. We all did that every day. It was like how everyone started their day.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

The world would be so much more peaceful.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right, it really would. Yeah, it really would.

[Dan Cummins]

It'd be a much, much, much better place. And you don't have to fucking do anything hard in the gym. You don't have to lift weights, you don't have to punch the bag. All those things are great. But just do a hot yoga class for 90 minutes every day. You, you will live in a different world.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yep. 13 up, 13 down, right? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

You'll live in a world of kindness and sweet people and hello, friend.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right because you've already, you've already put yourself through something that nobody else can deliver the rest of the day, they can't deliver. That kind of pain you just inflicted on yourself.

[Dan Cummins]

And it's a constant battle to see if you can use 100% effort.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly.

[Dan Cummins]

You're constantly battling. Can I hold this pose?

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes.

[Dan Cummins]

15 more seconds.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And there's no cheat zone.

[Dan Cummins]

Exactly.

[Charlie Sheen]

There's no, you can't. Right.

[Dan Cummins]

Because you're always doing it 100% of what you can do.

[Charlie Sheen]

Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, I was, I, I was, I was going to his, his studio on, on like Rexford in the early 80s.

[Dan Cummins]

Oh, wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, man. We were with that original crew.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. There's one thing that was really cool. Kareem was in there.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

And you know a lot of the stuff with the arms above the head, he can only go about here because the ceiling. Yeah. I would come in late sometimes and Kareem would already be in there. And so his shoes would be like next to his locker. So I would put my. Still wearing my shoes inside his shoes just because I just had to. I mean it's cool as fuck. It's Kareem. Right. And so, but then Quincy Jones is also in there, Right. And so the mirror, you could see the front desk where you check in behind you. Like you could see it, but it was behind us. We were all facing forward and for about a six month period, you know, Quincy's in a little Speedos and he's giving, you know, he's giving it his all. He'd be in the middle of like the standing bow or the frickin head to knee or something like a triangle or something really complicated. And he'd stop and he'd leave the class. But you'd see him going to the desk and writing shit down. Fucking sweating in his Speedo, right? He's writing shit down, he's sweating all over the paper. He'd come back and try to, you know, resume what, what he was doing. And then this went on for a while and we came to find out later, guess what he was working on. If you think about the year, if you think about like what that how his mind was being expanded. Right. He was producing Thriller.

[Dan Cummins]

Whoa.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. And he's getting inspired during the yoga, during the Bikram yoga. So we were kind of watching in the mirror the best, I think the largest selling album ever perhaps abs, right?

[Dan Cummins]

Probably.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. It's got to be up there being built behind us.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow.

[Charlie Sheen]

Kind of a trip, right? Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow. That shows you how hyper dialed in he is.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah.

[Dan Cummins]

Even in the middle of a yoga class. Gotta run out. He's probably thinking about it with every pose.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. Yeah. Or. Or some. And just how to write it down. How to write it down.

[Dan Cummins]

Wow. Because most people aren't allowed to leave the class, but Quincy Jones has to write some shit down for Thriller. You gotta let him leave.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah. Yeah. He gets that pass, doesn't he?

[Dan Cummins]

Yeah, he gets the pass. Yeah, he gets the pass.

[Charlie Sheen]

All right, brother, this is so much. This is an absolute pleasure.

[Dan Cummins]

Thank you. An honor.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Thank you for being here.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you.

[Dan Cummins]

Best of luck for you and everything.

[Charlie Sheen]

Thank you. Thank you. All right.

[Dan Cummins]

Bye, everybody.

[Charlie Sheen]

Olivia loves a challenge.

[Dan Cummins]

It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris.

[Charlie Sheen]

Olivia chose the easy way.

[Dan Cummins]

With Expedia, she bundled her flight with.

[Charlie Sheen]

A hotel to save more.

[Dan Cummins]

Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route.

[Charlie Sheen]

We were made to easily package your trip.

[Dan Cummins]

Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.