The Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

Date: October 17, 2025
Guest: Mariana van Zeller (Investigative Journalist, Host of "Trafficked" and new podcast "The Hidden Third")

Overview

In this wide-ranging, in-depth episode, Joe Rogan sits down with legendary investigative journalist Mariana van Zeller. The discussion covers the collapse of her groundbreaking docuseries "Trafficked," the global underworld economy, new insights from her just-launched podcast "The Hidden Third," and her harrowing field experiences reporting on cartels, contraband, scams, and addiction around the world. The episode also dives into U.S. immigration debates, the opioid crisis, fraud, journalism’s future, and the rise of scams and black markets worldwide—with a consistent focus on empathy, understanding root causes, and the dangers of political tribalism.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Mariana reflects on the risky work of exposing the underworld, and the ending of "Trafficked."
• Preview of her new podcast "The Hidden Third," exploring global black and gray markets.
• Deep dives into the pervasiveness of illegal economies, cartel operations in the US, scams, and the societal fallout.
• Honest conversation about U.S. immigration raids, policy hypocrisy, and the human cost.
• Critical analysis of the opioid crisis and systemic failures in public policy and healthcare.
• Broader reflections on polarization, journalism’s role, and the urgent need for empathy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life After "Trafficked" and New Projects

• End of "Trafficked": Mariana explains why the hit show ended: high costs, risk, and a Nat Geo/Disney shift back to nature programming.
  "Disney decided that Nat Geo should be doing more natural history and animal programming...Trafficked is just a difficult, challenging show to put together." (05:16)
• Transition to Podcasting: Launches "The Hidden Third," named after the estimated 35% of the global economy comprised of black and gray markets. "I wanted to have a place where I can have intimate, raw, sometimes difficult conversations with people who have lived or are living on the other side of the law...try to understand if the circumstances were different, if it could have been you and me doing that." (06:08)

2. The Global "Hidden Third" Economy

• Staggering Scale: Black market (drugs, guns, trafficking) is 15–20%; gray market (untaxed labor/goods) makes up the rest, totaling about 35%.
  "An estimated 35% of the global economy are these black and gray markets…Not just illegal activities…also the unregulated part of the economy. This actually has an effect on all of us." (06:12-07:00)
• Humanizing “Bad Guys”: Marianna shares stories of traffickers—like the teen cocaine mule who wanted to be a dentist but lacked options—emphasizing circumstance over moral judgment.
  "Even the people that we consider the bad guys could be me and you…It's important for me to place ourselves in people's shoes." (08:00)

3. Underworld Field Reporting—A Risky Job

• Securing Trust: Mariana explains how she gains access, and the boundaries set by cartels. "It's harder to convince an active trafficker or smuggler to come and sit down in my office...On the show, we figured out a way to make them comfortable: undisclosed locations, vans, drug houses..." (10:13)

• Cartel Rules and Risks:

  • Not allowed to ask "who do you work for?" in Sinaloa.
  • Corrupt cops sometimes present; law enforcement often knows location, but shies away from intervention.
  • Phones off, operational secrecy is paramount.

• Memorable Moment:
  "I filmed super meth labs, fentanyl labs, sicarios...I've filmed more from Sinaloa than anywhere else in the world." (14:15)

• People’s Motivation to Talk:

  1. Ego/boasting
  2. Impunity/corruption
  3. Desire to be understood
     "I think ego plays a huge role...Impunity, and then the desire to be understood. Everybody wants to be understood." (19:44)

4. Counterfeit Money, Smuggling, and Black Market Operations

• Counterfeit Bills: Describes the meticulous process and global networks, notably in Peru. "This guy, like shiny eyes, so excited, showing me how he finishes these bills...He uses a sort of cornmeal to make it feel exactly like the real stuff." (20:19)

• Distribution: Money mules use commercial airlines, start with small town businesses. "Commercial airlines, bags. They would carry the money, then distribute it, exchanging for 70% of face value." (24:40)

• Cartel US Operations:
  "El Gringo," an American working for the cartel, uses Delta airlines with unsuspecting couriers (often strippers) to transport drugs cross-country. "He said if you're taking a Delta flight from west to east coast, very high chance someone's carrying drugs." (28:00)

5. Structural Failures—Drug Crisis, Rehab Scams, and Policy Breakdown

• Ongoing Opioid Crisis and Rehab Scams:

  • Huge proportions of rehab centers are scams (at least 10% in California).
  • Body brokering: Scalping addicts for insurance payouts, especially among Native communities. "It’s the buying and selling of addicts in this billion dollar market...literally, there's like thousands of people still missing in Arizona, most of them Native Americans." (35:14)
  • Lawless “Florida Shuffle” and judges steering people to their own profiteering centers.

• The Failure of U.S. Drug Policy:

  • U.S. as #1 consumer, fueling the cartels.
  • Decriminalization, as in Portugal or failed attempts in Oregon, discussed critically.
  • Rehab as a flawed tool:
    "Even then, rehab is very ineffective. Percentage-wise..." (34:26)
  • Rise of “tranq dope”—fentanyl cut with xylazine, leading to zombie-like scenes and mass amputations.
  • Ibogaine and psychedelics as emerging recovery options for veterans and addicts.

6. Immigration Debates, Human Cost, and U.S. Policy Whiplash

• Empathy for Migrants: Numerous stories illuminate the desperation and trauma driving migration. "The majority of people...are from Haiti, Venezuela...no economic opportunities, extreme violence. These are the stories I hear all the time." (63:25)

• Legal Realities:

  • Entering the U.S. without papers and requesting asylum is legal, though often demonized.
  • Administrative spaghetti, backlogs, and “turn-aways” obscure the real impact.
  • Family separation and human tragedy; e.g., death of asylum-seeking mother, Estela, after deportation.

• Immigrants as Political Pawns:
  "Immigrants are being used as political pawns...Both sides." (73:31)

• The Economic Reality:

  • Undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes but lack a pathway to citizenship or worker protections.
  • Many myths persist about non-citizens not paying taxes (“$97 billion paid in 2022.”) (76:21)

• Rogues’ Gallery:

  • Stories of snatching up people with no criminal record, including those who grew up in the US.
  • Ugly stories of employers abusing or cheating undocumented workers.
  • Clear distinction: Empathize with workers, deport true criminals.

7. Tribalism, Political Division, and the Role of Journalism

• Danger of Being "on a Team":

  • Both left and right fall into confirmation bias and demonization of “the other side.” "That's the thing about being on a fucking team, is that you feel like you have to defend your team and ignore the horrible thing that your team does and only pay attention to the bad things the other team does." (57:00)

• Militias & Antifa:

  • Mariana discusses U.S. left- and right-wing militias’ dangerous mirroring and praxis.
  • Presses on the reality of Antifa, militias, and the importance of calling out violence and extremism on all sides.

• Crisis in Journalism:

  • Importance of independent journalism free from political or corporate grip.
  • Rogan and van Zeller lament that American mainstream news “works as a propaganda arm” for parties, increasing distrust.
  • Hope for a new generation of independent, boots-on-the-ground investigative journalists.

• Empathy and Critical Thinking:
  "Try to place yourself in somebody else's shoes. Don't be quick to judge...Once you understand the root causes, then you can actually make a difference." (152:10)

8. Golden Age of Fraud & Scams

• Scams as Growth Industry:
  • “Fraud and scams are the number one industry growth industry of our time.” – van Zeller (121:14)
  • Mariana is making a documentary by saying yes to scams—describes “pig butchering” crypto scams and scam labor camps in Asia, where forced laborers scam Americans under threat of torture or death.
  • Story of a Kansas banker who bankrupted his own bank after falling for a romance-crypto scam.
  • Rogan: "Greed is like...but what if it is [real]?" (134:06)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “An estimated 35% of the global economy are these black and gray markets…That’s what economists call the hidden third.” – Mariana van Zeller [06:12]
• "The idea of being able to place ourselves in people's shoes...even the people that we consider the bad guys could be me and you." – van Zeller [08:00]
• "[Cartel interviewees] know they're considered the bad guys...but I tell them, I'm here to try to understand, I'm not here to judge you." – van Zeller [19:55]
• "It's so sad—3,000 people died on 9/11, but 3,000 people die every week in America from addiction and it's barely discussed.” – van Zeller [151:16]
• "Immigrants are being used as political pawns. These are human beings...a lot of times, the traumatized are American citizens, the kids." – van Zeller [73:31]
• “That’s the thing about being on a fucking team…Now you’re doing the man’s work for the man and you get no benefit.” – Rogan [57:00]
• “Try to place yourself in somebody else's shoes...Once you understand the root causes, then you can actually make a difference.” – van Zeller [152:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:00] Ending "Trafficked" and starting "The Hidden Third"
• [06:10] Explaining black/gray economy’s scale/impact
• [08:00] Humanizing the “bad guys” of trafficking
• [14:15] Cartel operations in Sinaloa, field risk and access
• [19:44] Why criminals talk: ego, impunity, and understanding
• [20:19] Counterfeit money’s journey into the U.S.
• [28:00] How drugs flow into the U.S. ("El Gringo" and Delta Airlines)
• [34:17] Rehab scams, “body brokering” in California and Arizona
• [42:00] New drugs on the street (tranq dope), and zombie scenes
• [45:00] Ibogaine and psychedelic therapy discussion
• [61:37] U.S. immigration raids, legal vs. illegal entry, asylum laws
• [76:21] The myth that undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes
• [94:03] Sackler family, OxyContin, and the opioid crisis
• [99:58] Pharmaceutical price-gouging, lobbying, and lack of empathy
• [106:38] Journalism & tribalism; hope for independent reporting
• [121:14] "Golden age of scams"—forced labor scam factories in Asia
• [134:06] Human psychology of scams and rationalization
• [151:16] Why don't routine tragedies (e.g., addiction deaths) unite us like 9/11?
• [152:10] Mariana’s message: Empathy is essential, root causes matter

Tone and Style

• The conversation balances hard-nosed investigative intensity with moments of humor, vulnerability, and honesty.
• Both speakers share a deep sense of empathy for marginalized people and skepticism toward political hypocrisy.
• Mariana’s direct, clear, but nonjudgmental reporting style repeatedly shines (e.g., her emotional recounting of 9/11 [149:28]).
• Rogan plays the role of challenger and synthesizer, pushing for unvarnished truth and practical solutions.

Episode Takeaways

• Illegal and gray markets are vast, interconnected, and deeply entwined with daily life for billions—understanding them and those who participate should start with empathy, not judgment.
• Policy failures in drugs, immigration, healthcare, and economics have devastating, often unintentional human costs.
• Political polarization and media tribalism worsen these issues; a return to fact-based, independent investigative journalism is essential for democracy.
• The “golden age” of scams and fraud is structurally enabled and globally organized; awareness and literacy are critical.
• Big, structural problems won’t improve without both collective empathy and a willingness to see complexity, not just “teams.”
• Hope lies in independent voices like van Zeller’s and a renewed societal focus on solutions and compassion.

Further Information

• Find Mariana van Zeller’s new podcast, "The Hidden Third", on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and other platforms.
• Follow her ongoing work for deep dives into the human side of the world’s most dangerous markets and scams.

For listeners and readers: This episode offers a panoramic view into the roots and realities of black markets, addiction, fraud, migration, and the structural forces driving global chaos—always urging the listener to reach for empathy, complexity, and civic engagement over scapegoating or easy answers.