The Joe Rogan Experience #2411 – Gavin de Becker

Date: November 13, 2025
Guest: Gavin de Becker
Theme: Challenging Official Narratives, Pharma Skepticism, Government Power & Public Trust

Episode Overview

Joe Rogan sits down with security expert and criminologist Gavin de Becker to explore the underbelly of power structures, government secrecy, pharmaceutical influence, and the ways public perception is shaped and controlled. The episode traverses documented historical conspiracies, critiques the pharmaceutical industry, investigates vaccine policies, analyzes pandemic responses, and urges listeners to embrace skepticism. De Becker, drawing from his new book "Forbidden Facts," provides both documented evidence and sharp critique, weaving in well-known and lesser-known examples of institutional malfeasance. The pair maintain a conversational, sometimes humorous, and often provocative tone throughout.

Key Topics & Discussions

1. Covert Government Operations & Manufactured Narratives

Timestamps: [00:24] – [06:28]

• Project Gladio: Gavin de Becker explains the CIA’s post-WWII “stay-behind” armies in Europe and ties them to terrorist incidents meant to sway democratic outcomes.

  • “These things were done by the United States to our supposed allies... A 20,000-person army all over Europe.” – de Becker [01:57]
  • The Bologna train station bombing, Aldo Moro's assassination, and the manipulation of public perception through orchestrated terror.
  • Urges skepticism: “If you don’t have skepticism, the government runs us. We don’t run the government.” – de Becker [06:19]

• Lack of Oversight: Continual secret warfare and a refusal to “end wars,” favoring empire-building and control.

• Smith-Mundt Act Revamp: Rogan and de Becker discuss legalized use of domestic propaganda (Obama-era amendment), making it “absolutely legal for intelligence agencies to lie to us.” – Rogan [06:49]

• Project Mockingbird: Media manipulation by the CIA, both direct and indirect.

2. Information Control, Social Division & Pandemic Policy

Timestamps: [08:15] – [16:35]

• Social Narratives and Power Centers: Governments and elites construct narratives to control populations; religion as a historical and contemporary tool.
• COVID-19 Response:
  • Western democracies implemented mass “house arrest” that “no enemy could ever achieve.”
  • Exercise Event 201: A 2019 pandemic preparedness simulation focused on “controlling information,” not health (de Becker [13:10]).
  • Skepticism of intent—focus on outcome over conspiracy theorist stereotypes.
  • “Tyranny is the natural order for human beings... a tiny little sliver of freedom.” – de Becker [14:55]
• Division as Power: How lockdowns, closure of churches and communal spaces sow division and increase control.
  • “Division is actually the source of power.” – de Becker [11:33]

3. Medical and Pharmaceutical Paradigms: AIDS, COVID, Vaccines

Timestamps: [18:11] – [44:43]

• AIDS Controversy:

  • Cites Peter Duesberg’s dissenting view—that HIV isn’t necessarily the cause of AIDS, as discussed in "House of Numbers," and the retribution he faced.
  • “My peers are prostitutes. I am a prostitute as well, but they go all the way.” – Duesberg, quoted by de Becker [25:03]
  • AZT as chemotherapy originally deemed too toxic for cancer, but pushed for AIDS; stories of inappropriate use and harm.

• COVID-19 Vaccine & Policy:

  • Questions safety and efficacy, particularly with respect to myocarditis in youth.
  • Cites numerous scientists (Malone, Montagnier) now opposed to mRNA products.
  • Discusses censorship, professional repercussions for dissenters, and the role of incentives.
  • Rogan: “Why would all these doctors be in agreement and be incorrect? ...You got no grants, you got no funding, you lose your license.” [33:17]

4. Institutional “Debunking” and Systematic Delay

Timestamps: [39:11] – [44:43]

• Institute of Medicine & Government Commissions:

  • Repeated tactic: “More studies needed” – a tool to stall, as with Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, baby powder/cancer, and vaccines.
  • Admits that decisions to deny or conceal harm often driven by financial or political repercussions, not science.
  • SIDS example: “We don’t know what causes SIDS, but we’re sure it’s not multiple vaccines.” – de Becker [43:39]

• Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder: Hidden asbestos dangers acknowledged internally for decades, while public safety was put off for “more studies.”

5. Vaccine Risk/Reward Calculus & Historical Context

Timestamps: [48:45] – [61:49]

• Assessing Vaccine Risks: Compares parental risk calculus to government/medical narratives. Emphasizes individualized decisions every parent should make.
• Tetanus: Statistically negligible threat in the US, yet universally recommended—a questionable logic.
• Polio:
  • “99% of people who get polio never have any symptoms.” – de Becker [51:57], affirmed by Rogan
  • Most modern paralytic cases are vaccine-derived. “97% of [paralysis cases] were vaccine-induced.” – de Becker [52:43]
• Mumps, Measles:
  • Mumps outbreaks prevalent in vaccinated populations (94%); similar story with measles.
  • “The death rate for unvaccinated children...is zero.” – de Becker [61:18]
  • Improvements in hygiene and nutrition, not vaccines, primarily drove declines in these diseases.

6. The Ingredients Question, Pharma Ethics, and Industry Criminality

Timestamps: [65:44] – [99:59]

• Strange Vaccine Ingredients:

  • Long list of animal and chemical components still found in vaccines, many with questionable logic.
  • Example: “Potassium chloride...that is the chemical that is injected as the third injection in lethal injections by executioners.” – de Becker [67:46]
  • De Becker distinguishes between being “anti-vax” and being skeptical about specific practices and products.

• Adjuvants: Mercury and aluminum included for immune “provocation.”

• Studies on Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated: Few reliable, comprehensive, government-sponsored studies exist—and some were actively suppressed.

  • “Never a viable study...some of them for five days, some for 14 days.” [71:28]
  • “Because the fucking doctors aren’t. Because doctors can’t…they want to stay being doctors.” – Rogan & de Becker [99:03–99:10]

• Corporate Malfeasance & Pharma Fines:

  • Pfizer, J&J, GSK, Merck, Eli Lilly—all detailed as criminal repeat offenders, fined billions, yet amassing trillions.
  • “Why in the world do we trust these companies?” – de Becker [96:47]
  • On vaccine liability: “The one product...where they have no liability, you think that’s the one where they suddenly get careful?” – de Becker [96:55]

7. Population Control, Ethical Dilemmas, and “Third Rails”

Timestamps: [100:38] – [107:21]

• Kissinger Report & Population Reduction:

  • US foreign policy documents (1975) explicitly recommend “reduction of population in 12 specific countries.”
  • De Becker links forced sterilization campaigns in India and Peru, and fertility-reducing vaccines, to these policies.

• COVID Vaccines & Fertility: Admits short-term sperm count reduction in men; rise of miscarriages and stillbirths, per sources.

• **Planned Parenthood's founding and population control as policy.

8. War, Empire, Zelenskyy, and Narrative Construction

Timestamps: [124:16] – [131:29]

• Zelenskyy as Construct: De Becker delineates the highly orchestrated, media-driven rise of Ukraine’s president, supported by oligarch Kolomoisky and $5 billion in US “democracy campaign” funding.

  • “He is an actor in a carefully designed television show. He is a construct, like Epstein is a construct.” [126:16]

• Why War Exists: Not about the stated narratives, but power, control, resource extraction. The public is fed justifications, but “There’s always a narrative, all wars are justified.” – de Becker [129:20]

• US as De Facto Belligerent: “We are firing missiles, we are providing the signals intelligence...that is how war is fought today.” [130:08]

9. Social Decay, Collective Responsibility, and Calls for Courage

Timestamps: [131:29] – [148:16]

• Decay of Empires & Group Dynamics: Large groups lose accountability—a diffusion of responsibility that enables institutional cruelty.

  • “As soon as you get two or more together, I can’t stand them.” – De Becker quoting Carlin [131:26]

• COVID’s Unexpected Upsides: Forced reevaluation of relationships, strengthened bonds with the courageous, opportunity for new perspectives.

  • “Covid did something...I lost a lot of relationships...but also made some of the strongest.” – de Becker [131:40–132:25]

• Media Failure: Mainstream media, heavily pharma-funded, is derelict in exposing systemic abuses, both during COVID and in pharma at large.

10. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you don’t have skepticism, the government runs us. We don’t run the government.” – de Becker [06:19]
• “Tyranny is the natural order for human beings.” – de Becker [14:55]
• “You can divide a country...That is the source of power. Division is actually the source of power.” – de Becker [11:33]
• “The COVID vaccine, your child stands zero benefit and just might die.” – de Becker [53:25]
• “Why in the world do we trust these companies?” – de Becker [96:47]
• “Because the fucking doctors aren’t [speaking up]. Because doctors can’t…they want to stay being doctors.” – Rogan & de Becker [99:03–99:10]
• “I want to accept that these things are part of humanity and part of human nature, particularly when you have big centralized governments.” – de Becker [131:29]
• “Don’t be more pessimistic. Be more skeptical.” – de Becker [139:28]

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Quote Summary | | ----------- |--------------------------------------------------| | 01:05–02:40 | Project Gladio details, post-WWII stay-behinds | | 06:28–08:15 | Smith-Mundt Act, legal propaganda | | 13:10 | Gates Event 201 and tabletop pandemic planning | | 24:53 | Duesberg’s AIDS dissidence “my peers are prostitutes...” | | 43:54 | Institute of Medicine’s “more studies needed” tactic | | 52:14 | “97% are vaccine-induced polio” | | 61:17 | “Death rate for vaccinated/unvaccinated: zero” | | 67:46 | Potassium chloride in vaccines (lethal injection parallel)| | 96:47 | “Why in the world do we trust these companies?” | | 100:38 | Kissinger Report, official US population reduction policy | | 124:16 | Zelenskyy, the “constructed president” story | | 131:26 | George Carlin quote on groups/collective action | | 139:28 | “Don’t be more pessimistic. Be more skeptical.” |

Tone and Closing

The tone oscillates between darkly comic, incredulous, and fervent. Both lament and wry amusement are evident as Rogan and de Becker trade stories, share statistics, and reminisce about “lost innocence” with regard to state and industry trustworthiness. The episode’s overarching message is to challenge received wisdom, understand history’s patterns of abuse, and foster personal courage and critical thinking.

Resource Mentioned:

• Gavin de Becker’s new book: Forbidden Facts – designed to provide citations, source links, and a road map for skeptical inquiry.
• Documentaries: House of Numbers, An Inconvenience Study
• Reports: Kissinger Report (1975)

Call to Action:
Practice skepticism, question narratives, empower decision-making through evidence, and do not abdicate moral agency to institutions, whether governmental, medical, or corporate.