Transcript

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:01)

Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out.

Joe Rogan (0:03)

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:06)

Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

Joe Rogan (0:12)

John, what's happening, man?

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:14)

Not much.

Joe Rogan (0:14)

Very nice to meet you.

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:15)

You too. Thanks for having me.

Joe Rogan (0:17)

I know you're in the middle of a project. You're doing a project with David Chase, right? It's about MK Ultra.

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:23)

And yes, he has gotten the rights to the. This book. You know, this book, Project Mind Control, and he's interested in adapting it into a series.

Joe Rogan (0:31)

Well, I am endlessly fascinated with the subject. So as soon as I heard about it and they said the series is coming, but you could talk to the guy who wrote the book. Now I'm like, let's go. So here we go. Project Mind Control, Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA and the tragedy of MK ultra, which really is a tragedy. I really got. And I knew about it, but I really didn't get completely obsessed with it until Chaos. Tom o' Neill's book. Have you read that?

Dr. Christopher Simpson (0:59)

Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan (1:00)

And when you realize what the MK ULTRA program involved and how long it ran and how insane it is, and it essentially had no oversight, and these people were just running these wild mind experiments on American citizens and nobody went to jail for it.

Dr. Christopher Simpson (1:16)

Yeah, that's part of the crazy thing. One of the things I. I really try to focus on in the book, especially the second half in the of the book, are the consequences of MK Ultra in society, but also just what happened to these people afterwards. The victims of MK Ultra, they launched several lawsuits against the CIA and basically, really nothing much came out of it. They got paid a little bit of money, but the people who perpetrated MK Ultra, they didn't really face any consequences. And so I'm glad you brought that up, because one of the things I really try to talk about in the latter part of the book are what are the failures of oversight that allowed this to happen? How is that possible? How could people within the CIA be doing these kinds of drug experiments on people unwittingly and yet never face any, hardly consequences for their actions? So I delve into that pretty deeply.

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2419 – John Lisle

Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: John Lisle (author of Project Mind Control & The Dirty Tricks Department)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the history and legacy of MKUltra— the notorious CIA mind control program — with historian John Lisle, author of Project Mind Control and The Dirty Tricks Department. Joe and John explore the origins, key figures, ethical failures, cultural impact, and enduring mysteries of MKUltra, touching on related U.S. government "dirty tricks" and the psychology underlying mass manipulation. The discussion connects secret government projects with broader questions about oversight, human psychology, and the very structure of government and science.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to MKUltra & John Lisle's Research

Lisle is collaborating with David Chase on an MKUltra TV series, based on Lisle’s book Project Mind Control.
MKUltra involved decades-long, largely unsupervised CIA experiments on mind control using drugs like LSD, with little to no consequences for perpetrators and lasting trauma for victims.
- “It essentially had no oversight, and these people were just running these wild mind experiments on American citizens and nobody went to jail for it.” — Joe Rogan [01:00]
The victims launched lawsuits, but most received meager compensation, and the leaders (e.g., Sidney Gottlieb) evaded justice.

2. John Lisle’s Path to MKUltra

Lisle’s background in the history of science led him to OSS "scientist-spies" like Stanley Lovell, precursor to Gottlieb.
Gottlieb’s blueprint for MKUltra came directly from Lovell’s OSS-era research—“dirty tricks,” disguise gadgets, attempt at "truth drugs," etc.
“[Gottlieb] went into the old OSS files and was starting to look at the drug experiments that Stanley Lovell was doing.” — John Lisle [03:37]

3. Early “Truth Drug” Experiments and Ironies

During WWII, the OSS used THC-laced cigarettes, trying to lower inhibitions in interrogations—essentially just getting subjects high.
- “They basically gave them spliffs.” — Joe Rogan [05:14]
Harry Anslinger, anti-marijuana crusader, ironically helped oversee these experiments.
These efforts influenced postwar U.S., British, and Nazi mind control endeavors, but results were often comically ineffective (e.g., soldiers just laughed or got chatty).

4. MKUltra’s Darker Side: Victims and Unethical Experiments

Experiments included unwitting doses of LSD (sometimes in brothels – Operation Midnight Climax), chemical comas, sensory deprivation, and psychic driving.
Notable subproject: Ewen Cameron’s “psychic driving” — breaking patients with repeated audio of negative messages, chemical comas, and shock therapy.
- “They were just using his patients as guinea pigs.” — John Lisle [34:39]
Most “therapies” left victims far worse off, often with lifelong trauma.
- Story of Mary Morrow, a doctor-turned-patient, who was rendered nearly infantile by Cameron's treatments [37:50].
Lawsuits in the 1980s led to minor settlements, not meaningful justice.

5. CIA Plots Against Castro & Global Reach

The CIA and Gottlieb devised fantastical plots to discredit or assassinate Castro: LSD-laced cigars, thallium in his shoes (to cause beard loss), explosive seashells, poisoned diving suits, and propaganda photos.
- “[They] tried to assassinate him with exploding seashells.” — John Lisle [15:15]

6. Diffusion of Responsibility and Lack of Oversight

Gottlieb and the CIA used “cutouts”—fake organizations and indirect funding—to farm out experiments to prestigious, often unwitting, researchers.
"Such a diffusion of responsibility." — Joe Rogan [50:43]
CIA operatives and even internal investigators (e.g., Inspector Generals) often remained silent out of fear for their careers.

7. Operation Midnight Climax and George White

Government ran secret CIA brothels in San Francisco; johns were dosed with LSD and filmed behind a one-way mirror.
George White, running the operation, dosed friends, acquaintances, even a punch bowl at a work party, causing psychological ruin.
- “Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, cheat, steal, rape and pillage with the sanction and blessing of the all-highest?” — George White's letter to Gottlieb [62:56]

8. Science, Rationalization, and Cognitive Dissonance

Discussion on how scientists can rationalize discredited paradigms, referencing Thomas Kuhn’s “Structure of Scientific Revolutions”.
Parallels drawn between cult thinking, science’s resistance to anomalies, and the way organizations like the CIA rationalized abuses.
Memorable recounting of Leon Festinger’s study of cognitive dissonance in a doomsday cult [98:48].
- “The ability for humans to rationalize anything... is almost limitless.” — Dr. Simpson [98:48]

9. Information Warfare, Conspiracy Noise, and Media Manipulation

The abundance of wild conspiracy theories can serve to muddy the water around real, documented conspiracies (e.g., MKUltra).
“Censorship through noise”—true stories are discredited by association with absurdities (e.g., KGB’s AIDS disinformation campaign) [144:14].
Modern analogues: bot armies, social media manipulation, and state-sponsored digital disinformation campaigns.

10. Checks, Balances and Structural Issues in American Power

Both guests discuss how incentives, weak oversight, gerrymandering, and campaign funding have led to congressional dysfunction and lackluster oversight.
- “You realize, well, who's running against them? Who wants that job? Not a lot of impressive people.” — Joe Rogan [67:51]
Reforms like open primaries, ranked voting, campaign finance, and insider trading crackdowns are floated as partial remedies.

11. The Enduring Allure (and Dangers) of Conspiracy — and the Limits of Memory

Rogan links his own journey from skepticism to keen awareness of real conspiracies through experiences like reading Best Evidence about the JFK assassination [128:34].
Conversation covers the fallibility of memory, false memory generation (especially with hypnosis), and the blurry lines between genuine and fabricated stories in the public record.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the scale and impunity of MKUltra:

“And it's just so fascinating to me how much time and effort was spent just studying how to control people's minds and trying to come up with ways to do it. … No oversight. No one even knows you exist.” — Joe Rogan [26:18]

On government secrecy:

“One of the main themes throughout this book is what I call this vicious cycle of secrecy … Secrecy leads to plausible deniability. Plausible deniability leads to reckless behavior like MKUltra ... and reckless behavior in many instances leads to embarrassment... But embarrassment leads to secrecy. Because now that we've been found out, we gotta make sure that never happens again. We need more secrecy. And the vicious cycle continues.” — John Lisle [64:26]

On silly and sinister “dirty tricks”:

“They captured foxes, painted them with glowing radioactive paint, and planned to drop them on Japan to make people think evil spirits were coming … But by the time they reached shore, the paint had all washed off.” — John Lisle [54:52]

On Operation Midnight Climax and CIA depravity:

“Operation Midnight Climax… they had their own brothels and they would use two way mirrors ... this poor guy get off work, has a drink, thinks he's going to be with a prostitute and have some nice sex. Next you know, he's just tripping out of his mind while he's being recorded by Jolly West.” — Joe Rogan [28:19]

On cognitive dissonance (in cults, science, and society):

“The capacity for humans to rationalize things, if you start from a false premise, we can rationalize a world to make sure that we believe in that false premise.” — John Lisle [101:45]

George White’s self-confessed evil:

“I toiled in the vineyards wholeheartedly because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red blooded American boy lie, cheat, steal, rape and pillage with a sanction and blessing of the all highest?” — George White [62:56]

On the “pendulum” between secrecy and liberty:

“There's a pendulum that swings between security and liberty... Dread the day when the press sings nothing but the praises of those in power and Congress says that there are no abuses to investigate. … That's the day that you have lost all of your liberties.” — John Lisle [91:07]

Timestamps for Important Segments

MKUltra overview, aftermath, and societal damage: [00:31–01:16]
John Lisle's research origins & OSS connection: [02:01–04:11]
“Truth drug” experiments & THC irony: [04:49–06:04]
Operation Midnight Climax & George White: [28:19–29:32], [44:40–50:43]
Psychic driving and Ewen Cameron’s atrocities: [30:16–39:54]
Castro assassination plots: [12:52–15:36]
CIA’s diffusion of accountability & funding structure: [50:44–52:02]
Frank Olson incident, destruction of files, discovery of documents: [59:35–64:18]
Checks, balances & Congressional dysfunction: [67:51–75:36]
Censorship through noise & modern disinformation: [144:14–149:02]
Science, cognitive dissonance, and conspiratorial psychology: [98:48–108:17]
Cult psychology & the limits of memory: [109:58–126:35]

Concluding Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in the legitimate history of government abuse and the cultural legacy of both documented and imagined conspiracies. John Lisle’s research stands out for its rigor and emphasis on primary sources— including previously unseen depositions—underscoring just how much remains hidden and how much has been intentionally destroyed. Joe and John repeatedly circle back to the psychological underpinnings—how easily authorities (and scientists) can rationalize the unthinkable, how the public can be manipulated, and how, paradoxically, exposure and free-flowing information are both the antidote and the source of new confusion in the internet age.

Ultimately, both agree: real oversight, both internal and external, is as essential now as in the past. The terrifying stories of MKUltra aren’t merely historical anomalies—they're warnings about secrecy, unchecked power, and the enduring vulnerabilities of the human mind.

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#2419 - John Lisle