#2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2440 – Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Joe Rogan welcomes longtime friends and collaborators Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. The trio dives deep into the evolution of the film industry, the impact of streaming, creative process, challenges in storytelling, navigating fame, AI and artistry, the realities of action filmmaking, and the blurred lines between heroes, antiheroes, and morality in both life and movies. The conversation is punctuated with memorable anecdotes, reflections on greatness, masculinity, athleticism (especially MMA and boxing), and the enduring power of cinema.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hunter S. Thompson Stories and Iconic Writers

• Opening Segment (00:13 – 03:12):
  • Matt Damon shares a wild story about meeting Hunter S. Thompson at a dentist’s office, describing Thompson’s notorious profanity and eccentricity.
    • Matt Damon: "The first thing I hear is, pig fucker... I'm like, what is happening in there?" (00:41)
    • Ben Affleck: "He’s a fucking assassin." (01:06)
  • The group reminisces about Thompson’s influence, his unique voice in American literature, and the way his lifestyle and writing changed their perspectives.
    • Ben Affleck: "Fear and Loathing is some of the best writing... He also just lived that life." (02:03)
    • Joe Rogan: "Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like, reading that book was like, what the… Like, what is this guy doing?" (02:19)

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2. Evolution of Movies and Streaming Culture

• Transition to Industry Talk (03:45 – 14:20):
  • The changing landscape of the film industry, from theatrical releases to streaming dominance.
    • Ben Affleck: "Most people have gone to watch them (movies) on streaming... It's hard to get people to go into the movies... It's hard to get them excited about a movie." (04:13)
    • Matt Damon and Ben reflect on the shift from the communal experience of theaters to the individualized, multitasking nature of watching at home.
    • Matt Damon: "It's more like going to church. Like, you show up at an appointed time... It doesn't wait for you." (10:37)
    • Ben Affleck: "The upside of that is, I can try to do something… a little more experimental or risk-taking.” (13:00)
    • They discuss how streaming’s demand for immediate engagement is changing how stories are told and structured:
      • Matt Damon: "They want a big (action) piece in the first five minutes to get somebody... And maybe reiterate the plot three or four times, because people are on their phones." (11:55)

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3. The Shifting Value of Talent and Fairness in Filmmaking

• Crew Compensation Innovation (19:22 – 26:20):
  • Damon & Affleck detail their new approach: including below-the-line crew in film success bonuses, aiming for fairness and morale.
    • Ben Affleck: "It's not like we're saints... In order to do the job well, everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a shit about the result." (19:29)
    • Matt Damon: “...the economics have been wrong. Like when there’s a big success, everybody who had a hand on it..." (21:26)
  • They hope this model spreads industry-wide:
    • Ben Affleck: “This is the first time... we were able to actually create a schedule where... if the movie is watched as many hours... then that’s 20% of your salary, let’s say.” (25:37)
  • Humorous quip on reputation:
    • Matt Damon: “We’re communists, Joe. We’re from Cambridge.” (25:18)

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4. Creativity, Authenticity, and the Role of AI in Film

• AI Fears and Artistic Value (33:16 – 41:51):
  • Ben Affleck tempers fears about AI in Hollywood:
    • "If you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. It goes to the mean... not reliable." (33:52)
    • He predicts AI will be more of a tool for logistics and effects, not artistic creation.
    • “It’s always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.” (38:15)
  • Joe and Matt emphasize the irreplaceable value of lived human experience in acting:
    • Matt Damon: "...two traumatic events from this guy's life... the actor pulls these two things out, understands they’re appropriate for the scene... and then he goes and performs it that way. There’s no AI that can do that.” (40:35)

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5. Realism in Film – Research and Thematic Depth

• Miami, the War on Drugs, and Law Enforcement Stories (56:00 – 64:33):
  • The making of their new film “The Ribbon” involved extensive research, including ride-alongs with Miami narcotics units and technical advice from real officers.
    • Matt Damon: “...it was based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami... Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time.” (56:03)
    • Joe Rogan describes Miami’s unique cultural history as “a perfect backdrop for the film.” (60:48)
  • They stress authenticity and avoiding cinematic clichés:
    • Joe Rogan: “There’s no suspension of disbelief moments. That’s hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie.” (63:41)
    • Ben Affleck: “That’s why he was open to, like, ‘Okay, whatever happens, you throw in a line... Can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know? But, like, you gotta be able to take that shot.’” (64:04)

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6. Greatness, Obsession, and Its Cost

• On Heroes, Athletics, and the Cost of Being the Best (92:01 – 103:00):
  • They delve into what makes someone “great,” from Michael Jordan to champion fighters, and the costs that often come with greatness.
    • Ben Affleck: “I haven’t seen anybody who qualifies for that who didn’t also seem to be really suffering... either it’s never finished or it’s never enough, or they can’t enjoy it...” (92:40)
    • Joe Rogan: “You inspire all these people that don’t know you and you ruin all your relationships.” (94:07)
  • On MMA, boxing, and the mythos of physical dominance (with stories about Jon Jones and Mike Tyson):
    • Joe Rogan: “The thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed... You’re always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them.” (104:15)

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7. Redemption, Empathy, and Complexity in Storytelling and Life

• Complex Characters and Cancel Culture (75:51 – 83:58):
  • Matt and Ben reflect on the best characters being deeply flawed, citing Tony Soprano and Marlon Brando’s Stanley Kowalski.
    • Matt Damon: “That’s also a great actor. There’s a very famous story about Marlon Brando... he was making Stanley Kowalski... empathize with Stanley Kowalski.” (76:19)
  • They discuss cancel culture and the necessity of forgiveness:
    • Ben Affleck: “To take any forgiveness out of it... is a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go, ‘all right, yeah, I did that, that was wrong.’” (79:58)
    • Matt Damon: “It’s all about evolution. In our own personal evolution. And we’re all on our path towards that.” (81:42)

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8. The Enduring Passion for Filmmaking

• Staying Inspired and Watching Movies (87:04 – 88:15):
  • Despite enormous success, both Damon and Affleck see their careers as a dream come true:
    • Matt Damon: “It was never a job... From the time we were kids, we did fucking high school theater together.” (87:04)
  • Ben Affleck shares the joy of introducing classic films to his 13-year-old son and rediscovering old masterpieces together.
    • "This was a really... I was, like, so joyful. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life." (86:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Streaming Demands:
  Matt Damon: "It wouldn’t be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue, because people are on their phones while they’re watching." (11:55)
• On Breaking Film Formulas:
  Ben Affleck: "I think, you know, you can do is make shit the best you can, make it really good..." (13:01)
• On the Power of the Word-of-Mouth:
  Ben Affleck: "...that has more weight than anything you feel like. Somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, ‘Hey, this is great, you should see it.’" (136:39)
• On Forgiveness:
  Ben Affleck: "You remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way... It just becomes a sport." (80:33)

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Selected Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hunter S. Thompson Encounter: 00:13 – 01:43
• Theatrical vs. Streaming Shift: 04:04 – 14:20
• Crew Bonus System & Industry Change: 19:22 – 26:20
• AI and the Future of Screenwriting: 33:16 – 41:51
• Storytelling, Acting, and Emotional Authenticity: 50:11 – 56:03
• Making “The Ribbon” and Real Police Work: 56:03 – 64:33
• Greatness & Its Sacrifices in Sports/Fame: 92:01 – 103:00
• Cancel Culture and Nuance: 75:51 – 83:58

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is rich with humor, candor, nostalgia, and mutual respect. Damon and Affleck’s chemistry—built on decades of friendship—is obvious; they swap stories, finish each other’s thoughts, and openly debate. Rogan’s curiosity and deep knowledge of both film and MMA draw out engaging stories and make for a highly accessible conversation for fans of both movies and the martial arts.

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For Listeners:

Whether you're interested in Hollywood’s changing business, the nuance of high-level storytelling, what true greatness really requires, or just want to enjoy three powerhouses riffing with honesty and wit, this episode is a quintessential JRE hangout—insightful, entertaining, and oddly inspiring.

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Summary by [AI Podcast Summarizer], preserving original tone and intent.

Transcript

[Matt Damon]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[Joe Rogan]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Ben Affleck]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Joe Rogan]

That's wild.

[Matt Damon]

I went in because I came in from Miami, I think I was living at the time. And I went in and. And I'm sitting in the waiting room, and it was like, on a Sunday. Because it was. I was like, I'm only in town for you. And Stan was like, I'll come into the office. I'm like, thank you so much. I had to have some. A filling or whatever I needed. So kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing, and I'm not getting called in, but the ladies are just. Oh, no. There's not even a receptionist. And Stan comes out with his mask on.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Matt Damon]

The first thing I hear is, pig fucker.

[Joe Rogan]

Fucking cocksucker. Fucking pig fucker.

[Matt Damon]

And I'm like, what is happening in there? It's in the other room. And Stan comes in with his mask on. He goes, sorry.

[Ben Affleck]

He goes, I'll be with you soon.

[Matt Damon]

He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And he goes back, and I hear listen to Hunter Thompson swear for, like, 15 minutes. I'm like, this is amazing. And then Stan goes, okay, come on back. And Hunter's kind of getting out, and.

[Joe Rogan]

He goes, oh, you're sitting down with this guy.

[Ben Affleck]

He's a fucking assassin.

[Matt Damon]

And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear. Of clear fluid. And he's like, you're gonna need a sip of this. And I'm like, oh, my God. This is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine.

[Ben Affleck]

I'm like, this is ethyl alcohol.

[Matt Damon]

I'm like, this is fucking amazing. I've talked to this dude for 30.

[Ben Affleck]

Seconds, and I'm getting a s. And, like.

[Matt Damon]

And it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday. Yeah. He was halfway through the joke.

[Joe Rogan]

Where was this?

[Matt Damon]

In Beverly Hills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brentwood. Yeah, Brentwood.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God. That's amazing.

[Matt Damon]

It really was. It was. It was. And so I had probably a total of seven minutes, you know, with him, and it was like, I could not have been a better seven minutes.

[Joe Rogan]

That's incredible. I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there, because I know he used to go there.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And, like, you could, like, feel him in the building. You know, there's all the pictures in the walls. It's a cool little place.

[Ben Affleck]

I mean, those books, Hell's Angels and. And, you know, Fear and Loathing is some of the best writing. I just, like. He really had his Own voice. Rum diary Spectacular. You know, it was like, really descriptive and punchy and interesting and up. And he also just lived that life.

[Joe Rogan]

It was like fear and loathing changed my life. Like, reading that book was like, what the. Like, what is this guy doing? These grown men out there, balding grown men with spectacles running around with them.

[Ben Affleck]

There's lizards in the lounge. You guys are listening.

[Joe Rogan]

He's got a day trip bag filled with acid. Like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

[Ben Affleck]

And it's great shit. It's like you feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, no, it's a. It's. It's interesting to watch the. The evolution of his writing too, you know, Like, I read Hell's Angels and it's like very, you know, but that's early.

[Ben Affleck]

He's kind of restrained and he was quite like, for that. I think it was edgy sort of for the time. Yeah, you're going to get beaten. Chain whipped and stomped by the angels. And that was really edgy. And by the time they got to What a fear. Loading 72 or something like that, you.

[Matt Damon]

Know, he was just.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it was gone.

[Matt Damon]

He found his voice.

[Ben Affleck]

He did find.

[Joe Rogan]

He was supposed to be covering a race for, like, Sports Illustrated. That's a fear and loathing came from.

[Ben Affleck]

I lost my mind.

[Joe Rogan]

Great. It's great, Hunter.

[Matt Damon]

We'll take it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I met you before, but. Very nice.

[Ben Affleck]

Pleasure. Thank you very much.

[Joe Rogan]

I love the fucking movie. The Ribbon. Great.

[Matt Damon]

Thanks.

[Joe Rogan]

It's really good. It's so original and it's so. It's so different and it's. You know, it's like. I love those kind of movies, but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before. Really solid movie.

[Ben Affleck]

Thanks, dude.

[Matt Damon]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

It was awesome.

[Matt Damon]

So much better than you hating it in us.

[Ben Affleck]

The interviews were like. So I saw the movie anyway.

[Joe Rogan]

How you guys.

[Matt Damon]

We've had. We've had a lot of those. The junk. The press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know, the movie sucks. If they don't ask you anything about the movie, they come in, they go, so, how you been? You know? And you're like, oh, this is gonna be bad.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it weird? Like the. The transformation of the film industry. Seems like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now.

[Ben Affleck]

Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them. Yeah. Like, used to be the only place you go See movies in the 40s, like, every American went to the movie every week, basically. But it was because it was that or watch the cows walk by. You know, that was the only. And then TV comes around. It's little. And you see these little serials. But you know, what happened was now this is why it's totally changed the whole thing. Because you got 300 million people, 330, whatever, is watching, you know, Netflix. And it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies. There's also YouTube, there's also TikTok. There's also my kids. Like, it's hard to get them excited about a movie.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Because that's what we had.

[Matt Damon]

I mean, yeah, that was our. I mean, our teen years were just. Every weekend we're at the movies.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

There's just no question about it. You were going to go and usually not get into one because there were too many people. And then you just see what else is playing and go to that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already. And then Covid came around and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater. And then it just said I had.

[Ben Affleck]

This like drama that was coming out, like right when Covid hit. I really like the movie. Performance movies. An alcoholic guy whose kid who kid. Guys kid dies and becomes alcoholic. Dark movie. But I. I loved it. And I could tell, like, we're fucked. No one's going to go to see the theater, see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming. Streaming really blew up, you know, of course during COVID So, you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming. People actually saw it. I was like, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know, and it's not like my dad had an 11 inch black and white TV and that's what was TV viewing. Now it's like $200. You got a fucking 65 inch flat screen, like, and good sound. So of course people are willing to. And then streamers also started making great shows. You have Adolescents and if you saw. I think that Best things ever done.

[Joe Rogan]

I haven't seen that a lot.

[Matt Damon]

It's unbelievable.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it?

[Matt Damon]

Oh, my God. It's a. It's a. It's. I don't want to spoil too much of. It's only four episodes.

[Ben Affleck]

They're all one shot.

[Matt Damon]

They're all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Matt Damon]

So the cast, they took. I think I talked to the director about the cast took. I Think a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it. And so. So they. They do it twice a day is the full hour. They would choreograph the entire stuff. Yeah, it's really.

[Ben Affleck]

And then the acting is.

[Matt Damon]

But great. But that's. I mean, just dismiss that even. You could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case. But the performances and the writing and what it's about, it's. It's as good as anything you'll see. It's. It's phenomenal.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it on Netflix?

[Ben Affleck]

Netflix? Yeah. You know, you have like. It's not. It's not even an anomaly. There's Baby Rangers, there's fucking succession. There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, it's just like, okay, well, they're doing great out there. It's not like this sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good, not as interesting. It's a serial.

[Matt Damon]

When we started, it was. There was a different. I mean, like. Like George Clooney, for instance. Like, there was a big thing. You know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER. That show. 40 million people a week were watching that show. It was the biggest thing. Right. Cause there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. And George never renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies. And it was like, you can't go from TV to movies.

[Ben Affleck]

It's very hard.

[Matt Damon]

People can do it. And he really strategically and kind of patiently, like, he joked that on the last episode he was on, Anthony Edwards, you know, his co star, was making a million bucks for the episode, and he was making, you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal was. Like, he could have renegotiated, but he would have had to give more years.

[Ben Affleck]

How bad he wanted to get off TV and do movies.

[Matt Damon]

That's how bad he wanted to get off of the biggest TV show in the world. Because there was such a big kind of level change between features and tv.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it was a giant difference in quality. It was also this. The breaking it up for commercials. It was just a different experience.

[Ben Affleck]

There's all these rules. You can't say this, can't do that, can't swear, no gan of violence and nudity, all the things people want to see in movies, you know, and then. And also it wasn't. It wasn't as interesting. And then now that's tethered to these schedules and all this stuff. Whereas, you get this shit. Like you don't have a schedule and. And you can take a bunch of risks. So. And that started happening and then it was kind of like, well, this all is just as good, if not better than what's in the movies.

[Matt Damon]

Well, then movies started to move towards more ip.

[Ben Affleck]

And because it was hard to get people to come to the movies, everyone got scared and thought, well, you have to. Has to be a sequel or, or superhero movie.

[Matt Damon]

And so an interesting little movie. Kind of in the 90s when we kind of came onto the scene, you know, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made. There was, There was, you know, it was a really great time to be making move. People were. They were making daring movies and, and. And then everyone just got way more conservative because it's huge. Like, the business is so different theatrically and streaming because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize. Like you're trying to get everybody, everybody's.

[Ben Affleck]

Spending about what the budget was to make it. To advertise 50% of the theatrical. Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Cause you split it with the movie house right through the exhibit.

[Ben Affleck]

So a $25 million movie to break even, you gotta make $100 million.

[Matt Damon]

And you gotta get everybody to not only know about the movie, but to show up like that Friday night, like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie, and to cut through all the noise that people are contending with.

[Ben Affleck]

And, you know, it just becomes about risk. And nobody wants to take the risk, so they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment. We're going to lose our money. And the streamers have stepped into that. And like, no, you know, enoughness to have a star. You could try something more interesting or didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was. And also I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like, it's. First of all, it's expensive, right? You take your whole family, it's a hundred dollars, you're on a streaming service, 20amonth, you can watch all you want.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[Ben Affleck]

So you can't be cavalier about, like, you're just going to price it however the fuck you want and expect everyone to like, be indifferent to that. And then, you know, also, you know, the idea of, like, for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff, I make that decision, like, do I want to see the Odyssey on. On a big screen? Fucking death. I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie. And, you know, did I. One battle after another, I wanted to go see in the theater. But there's movies with people that I really like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good system and shit. But I'm like, look, I'll watch and I might get tired. I won't pause it and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever it is that's conducive to my lifestyle, you know, and so.

[Joe Rogan]

And most people.

[Ben Affleck]

I see a few. I think most people are, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people. See an awesome movie with a bunch of other people. It's like a shared experience, 100%.

[Matt Damon]

I always like an attention way more attentive. Like. Like when I went to see one battle on imax, like, you know that feeling. There's nothing like that feeling. I took, you know, two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife, and we all went. And it was just. It was like. And you're in with, you know, a bunch of strangers, people in your community, and you're having this experience together. I always say it's more like going to church. Like, you show up at an appointed time, you know what I mean? It doesn't wait for you, you know, versus the experience of watching at home. I think, you know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to or that you're able to give to it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on how you make movies. Like, for instance, Netflix. You know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have, like, three set pieces. One in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, you kind of. They kind of ramp up. And the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? You know, we want people to stay tuned in. And Ken. And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue, because people are on their phones while they're watching. You know what I mean? And so then it's gonna really start to infringe on how we're telling the story.

[Ben Affleck]

But then you look at our lessons. But didn't do any of this.

[Matt Damon]

Didn't do any of that.

[Ben Affleck]

And it's fucking great. You know what I mean? So I think it's. And it's dark, too. It's tragic and intense. It's like, guy who finds out these kids accused of murder, and it's like, you know, and. And there's long shots in the back of their head. They get in the car, nobody says anything. I think there are those. Look, I wish.

[Matt Damon]

That feels more like the exception. It's so masterfully made that it feels a little more like the exception. I hope it's not.

[Ben Affleck]

My feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that shit to get people. You know what I mean? Like, and I think, you know, yes. You know, like, look, hey, the town had the action thing in the beginning, the first five minutes, because you know what I mean? Like, it's a. It's a common trick that you would go, like, let me grab them and get them invested in this. Like, the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff, and now we're gonna flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there.

[Joe Rogan]

It's.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, I always feel like, you know, complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like, when I was a boy. Like, you always want to freeze the culture. At the time when you, I don't know, felt more like, you know, we didn't used to have these phones. The fuck are all these phones? And everybody's looking different. I get it. Yes. It's true. Also. It's like supply and demand. People want to look at their phone. They can look at TikTok they want. You know, they're going to do that. I think what you can do is make shit the best. You can make it really good. And, you know, people can still go to the movies. Not like, I think we have this idea that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is going to destroy everything. Instead of, like, what history suggests is that there's, like, marginal encroachments. Things shift. Yep. As television came along, there was less theater going. That's still gonna happen. And people are still gonna go to movies because of what you said. Like, it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm gonna go see the Odyssey. I guarantee you, in a theater, you know, no matter what, fewer of them, you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick. Right. If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because they invested in TVs and cost us money, they will. So. Okay. But the upside of that is, like, I can try to do something hopefully that's like, that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family that's a little more experimental or risk taking or whatever in that way.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's no way you're going to change people's viewing habits now. I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones? It's got to be pretty high, which is insane.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Even watching on a laptop for me is kind of like. Kind of sucks, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

It sucks.

[Matt Damon]

That's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with. Like, when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's not gonna look as good on the phone.

[Ben Affleck]

Just everyone gets angry out of their sales, you know. No, that's gonna look great. This bigs, but keep around and lighting that wall.

[Joe Rogan]

It is weird, though, the, the concern for the algorithm, like, making sure that people watch. Like, look, we've got data that shows within the first five minutes when this happens, they tune out. So let's like my buddy Tony Henchcliffe, you know, he's got Kill Tony and now it's on Netflix. And so they're giving them notes now, and they can give him like, yeah, but they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying, like, this is when people are tuning out. And so let's, you know, just so you have that data now, decide how you want to edit things.

[Matt Damon]

It's like, oh, yeah, slippery slope. It is because. Because the. It's like the. The bar for, for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel. Right, right. And oftentimes, you know, directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kinney, my friend, great actor, and he. He told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York for the first time. Right. In 76 or whenever it came out. And he said, what I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up. I got up out of my seat and I went. But I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested, but I was so he goes, I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie. And he goes, and there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Just because they were disturbed, because the.

[Matt Damon]

Movie was disturbing them so much.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Matt Damon]

Which is not a bad thing. Right, Right. So had that been on Netflix or Amazon? You know, if somebody disturbed and they turned and they changed the channel.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.

[Ben Affleck]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

That's true. Like the investment of going to a place is much greater.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. One of the values of that is that you could you look at movies from the 70s, 80s, the first act was 25, 30 minutes.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, the verdict for that's a great movie takes a long time to.

[Matt Damon]

Get the Deer Hunter.

[Ben Affleck]

Oh yeah.

[Matt Damon]

I mean that's.

[Ben Affleck]

And, and you're right, like what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real. Like any scene, like, ah, I want to watch naked, alone. You know, you flip the fucking. So you're. You are battling that. And you know, I watched Le Mans.

[Joe Rogan]

The other night, Steve McQueen and there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done. Just a bunch of people doing things. And it's like, wow, you could make a difference. You could let it air out back then. Yeah, it was. They had a different respect for what it was. Like you were telling a story and you're gonna let it air out.

[Matt Damon]

Well, they also knew where their audience was. They were in a theater that they.

[Ben Affleck]

Part of it was they wanted to come there. I mean, the great story I like is the first time they debuted a movie guys with a projector in a room full of people. It was a movie of a train pulling into the station. So they put the reel up and they did demonstration and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector. They never seen anything like that. You know, the technology's upstaging, but like you come for an event, come for a thing, we're all gonna be here. That's part of it. It's. I don't know, there's competing arguments that you can think, well, what do you get to do? And some people just go ahead and fuck it. Like Jim Cameron's Avatar, I'm going to make my three hour movie and people are going to come and great. You know what I mean? And people say, oh well, you can have a three hour movie. He's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron and I've actually got the number one and two and you know, movies. I think I got this. He goes ahead and does it. You know, this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're going to do something different. And as it turns out, like that's actually what people want too. Is not for you to just repeat the other. That's been done before. Worked before.

[Joe Rogan]

This episode is brought to you by Visible. Have you heard of Visible? It's the one line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for 25amonth, taxes and fees included. All on Verizon's 5G network. It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection. Got a resolution to save? Kick 2026 off right now. For a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code. Switch 26. Share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet. Switch [e-mail] terms apply, limited time offer subject to change. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses. Yeah, that's awesome.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, hopefully it's successful.

[Joe Rogan]

If it doesn't, it's a great movie, man. It's a fun movie.

[Ben Affleck]

But it's, it's, it's good. But it's not like, you know, we're saints or philanthropists. Like it's completely self serving in my opinion because in order to do the job well, everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a shit about the result, not their paycheck only. And sometimes you work with a crew that just happen to be great anyway, even though they don't really have to care about it and they do. And what we saw was like, that makes your movie better. And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing. You see these strikes and work stops and all these fucking questions in order for this, I think to survive and to be, you know, a good middle class fucking artist, you know, artisanal craftsman job. We got 1200 people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs. And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to get fucked. Like we have no participation. Like used to working on movies and happens to actors Too. Where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away with all the success. And you know, my theory was, with Matt was we were like, how about where, let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right? If this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of participation back and haven't come true. So this is like the crew, everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise in actually proving that it's not that if there's success, you'll get some extra. A little success, A little extra, A little more. A little more.

[Matt Damon]

But also, like you said, cause it's fair, you know, and in success, the people who made the movie should, you know, should participate in that. And also with this one, which was important to us, you know, they delineate above the line and below the line. Right? Like above the line being like us.

[Ben Affleck]

The director and the cast in the.

[Matt Damon]

Line and below the line being kind of the more blue collar side of our industry.

[Ben Affleck]

And like painters, greensmen, camera people, everybody else with drivers.

[Matt Damon]

And so we just wanted, we, we believe, like when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better. Right? It's not, it's. It's like they've. This has kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like the economics have been wrong. Like when there's a, when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand.

[Ben Affleck]

On it, because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable, they're all going, okay, I need all my people with.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, every great director I've worked with and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members that they, that are ride or die with these people. Because I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like, you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling, like, you know, cinematography, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these, this, those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good. Like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is.

[Joe Rogan]

And imagine once you get a good flow with a great crew, like you got the band.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, there's no need to bring in new band members. Let's, let's do this again because they.

[Ben Affleck]

And then like you have the situation where they all are filmmakers Too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So like then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment. You have to, like, if people are tight or they're bent out of shape or, you know, fucks up the environment, people aren't relaxed. Actors can't do their best work. And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people, but if you look around like, what's the example? Colin Anderson, camera operator, right? Not the cinematographer, but I would tell you he's the. I think he's the greatest camera operator there's in Hollywood. And if you want evidence of that, he shot Marty Supreme. He was a camera operator on one battle after another. You know, he's. You look at his resume and you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies. Now, is he personally responsible for all of it? No, because it's a collaborative medium. There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that, sing, write music. You can't do this job alone. Like, there are a lot of people that go into it, you know, Even when I realize like, Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed, having somebody so fucking good in your movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird like that sets this tone. Everybody else kind of goes, okay, what's Damon like? Oh, I see. This is, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's going to be a dick. We're all going to do our job. We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're going to take the job really seriously. And immediately everybody kind of snaps into that. That trickle down effect goes across the whole thing. And I think the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment where people feel like they show up. People like me, they're rooting for me. I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad and it's not gonna be in the movie. And it was gonna make me feel.

[Matt Damon]

Self conscious and I'm listened to my ideas.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And if I have something to offer, they're gonna go, oh, that's a good idea. You know what I mean? And that's kind of the trick, in my view. And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people, every single one of them, you know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant prop master is coming up with, like, the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe. They found it on ebay. Like that an extra mile. You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and, oh, cool, let's do a close up of that. That's really cool. They'll die for you. They'll go all the way and it changes the whole.

[Matt Damon]

And if you bonus them, you know, it's not just all, you know, it's. It's not just raw. There's an actual, like, codified bonus structure to say, like, we.

[Ben Affleck]

This is the way of recognizing that shit.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Ben Affleck]

It's like in your paycheck too. It's not very real.

[Joe Rogan]

And you guys develop this. Is this. So is this something that you would like? Kudos to you guys addressing this, first of all, and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and it's so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own.

[Matt Damon]

We're communists, Joe. We're from Cambridge.

[Ben Affleck]

Keep the car running.

[Matt Damon]

No, but each deal has had this kind of. Each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with different studios and platforms and stuff.

[Ben Affleck]

Like that and just involved us basically retroactively going, hey, we came in under. We did a great job as extra money. Here you go. This is the first time that we were able to actually create, like a schedule where it's like, because. And by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going, okay, cool, you think you can make this work? Is this. We'll give you a shot. Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to do it. So we had to say, look, we're not asking you to take a cut, but, you know, if we can. And we can tell you if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as, like, this movie a that you all know what it is, then that's, you know, 20% of your SAL, let's say, right? You just take a hit. So it's like, yeah, you make more money. Your bonus is more. It's all just pegged to where you're at. Just because that was the most fair idea we come up with.

[Matt Damon]

So they gave us like five different levels, right? Like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third, maybe we get. And then it got to like the fifth level.

[Ben Affleck]

Like, single, double, triple, Home Run, Home.

[Matt Damon]

Run, Fucking grand slam. The fifth one was. Was 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that. So it's. Everybody who has a Netflix account watches it, and then, like, 10% of them watch it again. And we were like, no, but that's what happened. We were laughing. And then K Pop Demon Hunters came along and actually did that. That's the first movie that's ever.

[Ben Affleck]

Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over.

[Matt Damon]

I haven't seen. I haven't seen it, but, I mean, somebody's watching it over and over.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, dude. People love it.

[Ben Affleck]

I mean, it's. You know, the value of it is that. Because before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your. There used to be residuals, right. And residuals. And it was only for SAG and a few other things, but it was like. And you knew if you had a line in the movie and there was a certain number, like, at the box office, well, you're gonna get another 2,000 bucks. And that was a big deal. You get that check in the mail and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month, and I can do that shit. But then it. Then there was this, like, sort of ill. What constitutes success? Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie. Right, right. It's hard to tell. Well, why did you sign up for this service? Right. So for a while, everyone's looking at the first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody. Okay, you're gonna go buy Hulu. What did you watch first? The Bear. Well, the Bear must be creating value for us. But it's. You can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well, you know, Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever. And, you know, that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet. Because streamers are doing a subscription model. You know, it's. You know, whether it's like a gym membership, where in the, you know, first of the year, you're like, I'm gonna work out again. I'm gonna buy that annual membership. And you go twice, or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you go into the movie theater and there's seven movies playing you're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content. You could waste the rest of your life sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have, you know, millions of hours more to listen to or watch.

[Ben Affleck]

You're right. Like, when we started researching that and built our own data to pull people and examine all this stuff, it's. It's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time. If you said, like, the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever, but in terms of, like, volume of time, I think it doesn't come from them, but it looks a lot like, you know, we're going to watch like, Orange is New Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and what, you know, Cupcake wars or, you know, that's what. Because Americans watch six hours of TV day. Right?

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. And then the other six hours are on their phone.

[Ben Affleck]

How does anything get done?

[Joe Rogan]

How does anything get done? When you started to make this film, like, what. What is the process? Like, how did you guys agree on it? Like, what did you guys have it written? First was Joe Carnet.

[Matt Damon]

Joe.

[Joe Rogan]

So before you knew you were going to Netflix with it?

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, yeah. He came to us with the script. And we've known Joe for a really. He did a movie. His first movie was called Narc, I don't know if you ever saw. Yeah, so we met him way back this 25 years ago or something like that. And so we met him, met him back then. And Ben did a movie of his.

[Ben Affleck]

Smoking aces04, I think.

[Matt Damon]

And so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years. And he just sent this to us and said. And we read it and we thought it was great and bought it for the company. And then we started talking to Joe about how he saw how he wanted to do it and he suggested that we actually do the movie. And we were like, yeah, why don't we do it?

[Ben Affleck]

It seems basically because we liked it and we like. We're not trying to just do our movies. We want to be, you know, doing movies with all these. The people that we like, respect and, and. And then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like, the. Historically, the way it's worked is like the, you know, a studio will own a. An IP or a script or whatever, and then you cut. And they'll say, okay, we want you to do it, okay, well, how much. Well, how much did you get for the last one? Right? And you go, then what's the budget? And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? But, like, my belief was, well, especially when these streams are coming into the market and chasing stuff is like, this movie may, may be worth more, it may be worth less, and that, like, we're all just subject to that. So we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it, you know, pro rata. And essentially that. That was the same process. We've done eight, I guess, movies or so now. And, and we took it out and, you know, people wanted it. And then we. One of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this, this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize. I was like, okay, great, that's. That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing, you know? And I mean, go, here's the paper.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but now, now the template exists, so it's like plug and play. So if you, if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what, just take this.

[Ben Affleck]

And, and it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like, manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, we got to invest all this money in the movie, so you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable, that's too edgy, or can't be R rated because it costs this. I get it, right. You're going to put all your money into it. You want. You don't want money to disappear. You want to make money. Okay, so, like, when we wrote the first movie that we're getting, Good Will Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be achievement movie. People talking in rooms to each other, because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie with us that no one heard of. So it was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting, that. And try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie. That same logic, like, carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that, like, in success, we'll actually benefit, we can lower you know the price up front for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry. So that you can take the risk. So that we can do something really interesting. That's, that's an original idea. That's a, you know, that's an omnim or a sinners or Marty supreme or whatever it is. And, and then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes where, you know, you guys walk off with all the money. But, and you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the final chapter of the college football playbook.

[Ben Affleck]

It comes down to this.

[Joe Rogan]

Miami's unmatched matched grit and tenacity through.

[Ben Affleck]

The postseason has led them home the national title.

[Joe Rogan]

Now within reach, they are confident, they are battle tested. Undefeated Indiana, led by Chris Signetti and Heisman winner Fernando Mendoza, have the chance to take home their first title and.

[Ben Affleck]

Claim college football immortality.

[Joe Rogan]

The most remarkable turnaround in the history of college football. The College Football Playoff National Championship. Presented by AT t Monday at 7:30pm.

[Ben Affleck]

Eastern on ESPN and the ESPN Apple.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. Like what, where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want, they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird, right?

[Matt Damon]

It gets really weird. But this is actually an area of experiencies for him.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like my belief is sort of like, what's going to happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity. Some of it's going to be good, some of it's going to change stuff. Some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people. Like it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, well, talk about it in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with what I see is, for example, if you try to get Chatgpt or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature it goes to the mean to the average and it's not reliable. And it's. I mean, I just can't stand to see what writes now. It's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, oh, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up. Or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets. And it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it can. It's going to be able to write anything meaningful or. And in particular, that it's going to be making movies like from Holcomb, like Tilly Norwood. Like, that's bullshit. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's not. I think it actually, it turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. And really what it is, is going to be a tool just like sort of visual effects. And yeah, it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. Your. Those laws already exist. You can't. I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law. And the unions are going to. The guilds are going to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It doesn't save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're gonna focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful. Just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be. Like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them. It looked goofy. Now in computer generated, people use a lot of computer generated stu. And some of it is going to replace just that. Like, instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2 an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, there's going to be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around and guild guidelines around, like how many union extras you have to use. But also, we've been tiling extras. Like, there weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth, you know what I mean? There aren't Invictus, there weren't all those people in the stadium. Like, that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense this existential dread, it's going to wipe everything out. But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is a adoption is slow, it's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies where they go, we're going to change everything in two years, there's going to be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that, like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up and be three times as good. Except that actually chatgpt5 about 25 times percent better than chatgpt4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those nicely. It's like plateauing. The early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because. And yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better. And a lot of people were like, fuck this, we want ChatGPT4. Because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to, like, as like companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it. I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to, like, focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic. But that's sort of a side issue, I think, for this particular purpose, like, the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they make it harder to do it. And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people. You know, like, you're, you still appreciate a handmade table, you know, you're gonna appreciate, like, did you see the beast in me? Claire Danes?

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Great.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, I heard it was great.

[Joe Rogan]

That lady Terrific, when she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ. Like, you. Like her lips are quivering. Like you believe everything that she's saying, that you're right.

[Ben Affleck]

People want that you can't.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Matt Damon]

I said. Like, I. I did this interview with. With Dwayne Johnson because they, you know, they. When people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them, you know, And I did this interview with Dwayne, and. And. And I asked him. There's this scene in the Smashing Machine where. Where he's overdosed on drugs, and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

And. And it really walloped me, this scene. I thought it was so great. And. And I asked him, and I was just like, can you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny. Benny Safdie directed it? Did Benny write this? Write that? Did you work on that scene with them? Do you.

[Ben Affleck]

He goes, no, we.

[Matt Damon]

We actually worked on it together. And I go, but how did that scene come to be? And Dwayne goes, well, my father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember if he said substance abuser, alcoholic, but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him, but. But he had. He had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, and. And when he would talk to me, you know, that's how he would defend himself. He was almost a bargaining thing. Cause there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed. And Dwayne's amazing in this scene. He's going like. He's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy?

[Ben Affleck]

And then I woke up.

[Matt Damon]

I mean, I could hear him, but.

[Ben Affleck]

I couldn't really hear him.

[Matt Damon]

And you see him, and he's kind of tap dancing, and his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head. And it's like. And it's. And it's. I mean, it's just. It was. I'm not doing it justice if you haven't. I mean, I know you've seen. I know you've seen it. But he said, yeah. So he explains that about his father, and then he goes, and. And when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in. And she was lying in the hospital bed. And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head. And I looked at her, and she.

[Ben Affleck]

Just looked like a little.

[Matt Damon]

Like a little kid, you know? And I was like, all right. Like, so that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, Right. From his life experience. And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene. And then he goes and performs it that way. And a dude walking in off the road, goes to the movies, sees this, understands somehow that it's fucking real. I didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him, how did that scene come to be? I genuinely didn't know. And made me tear up. You know, like, that is. And there's no AI that can do that.

[Ben Affleck]

No, it's a whole lot more than photorealistic images.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. That. You.

[Matt Damon]

You could. You could. You could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different. No fucking ever do that.

[Joe Rogan]

The complications of real life experiences relayed.

[Matt Damon]

That is a completely human. That is. That is an artist. That's a piece of art.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Matt Damon]

That comes out of a lived human experience.

[Joe Rogan]

That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where Emily Blunt is arguing.

[Matt Damon]

I said. I really said. I. I like that. I think. I think that the best she's ever been. I live. You know, we live in the same building in New York. She's like, very dear friend of mine. And I. And I. I was like, I really think that's the best she's ever been. And then I said. And then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan and. And he kind of stopped and looked at me like. He didn't say it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, she's great, period.

[Matt Damon]

She's great.

[Joe Rogan]

She's great, period. But there's something about that. Well, I knew Mark. I knew Mark from. I met mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So I knew the whole journey of him. And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero, blockbuster hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be a great actor. And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that, to express emotions. And he was Mark Kerr.

[Matt Damon]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

If you know Mark, I mean, it was fucking great acting.

[Matt Damon]

I Completely forgot it was him. And somebody who had seen it before told me that was gonna happen. And I was like, all right, we'll see. And it was like, from the second.

[Joe Rogan]

It started, it didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of, like, the amount of people that went to see it. But I think overall, in time, people appreciate it.

[Ben Affleck]

That's one of those people go back to.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's a movie about mma. So a lot of people, like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads. But it's not. It's just a movie that happens to be around ma. But mma. But it's a great movie. The scenes are fantastic.

[Matt Damon]

Fantastic.

[Joe Rogan]

The acting is so good. And the.

[Ben Affleck]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And even this, the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man. It's really like they. I've saw all those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get. And just his crazy struggle and. You know the story behind the documentary, the Smashing Machine?

[Matt Damon]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

So the Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride, and he was the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265 pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people. People didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him. No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming, and he let them film him. Let them film him shooting up. Let them film him, like, bringing this giant bag of pills with them and all this everywhere and just completely falling apart. While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart, like, live in front of the documentary. It was fucking amazing documentary.

[Matt Damon]

I got to see it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's really good. But I was so happy that they put it in a film, and I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of. Because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

And by. And by, like, galactic success.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

I mean, it's.

[Matt Damon]

It's, it's.

[Ben Affleck]

It's. He. He has.

[Matt Damon]

He had to and will continue to have to push for that. Right. Because it's what he wants.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Matt Damon]

And not because what. Because what they are going to continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that mints them money.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

I suspect that his experience and feeling.

[Matt Damon]

About this movie from the conversations I've had with him. Yeah. This has changed him yeah, Well, I.

[Joe Rogan]

Mean, it's like this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. And so you see him now, he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, too. Right. He wanted to be. He wanted to have more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things.

[Matt Damon]

Well, I think also coming from where he came from. Right. It's like, you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to me to, like, the biggest movie star in the world. Right. It's very. It's like. It's incredible that he did that. And now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as. Because he's so beloved and you know that. That he can kind of tailor the tailor what he wants from. From here on.

[Ben Affleck]

It's hard to bring the audience with you. Like. No, no, I know you like this thing, but let me. Let me show you something else. You know, it's sort of like you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new songs, play the.

[Joe Rogan]

Hits, you know.

[Ben Affleck]

Gilded Games. All right.

[Joe Rogan]

It. Satisfaction.

[Ben Affleck]

No, I love the song, too. You know, my. My acoustic thing that I did.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I went to see the Stones, and when they were here in town and there was a few songs they played that were like new songs.

[Matt Damon]

Oh, really?

[Joe Rogan]

See, the audience is like, okay, okay.

[Ben Affleck]

Go get a beer.

[Joe Rogan]

Get the. Yeah, that's what I mean. But, you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice. And he's made it. And. And it was amazing vehicle, too, because he still kept that superhuman, hulkish frame. Yeah. And then. But also showed, like. God, there's like, amazing depth there.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And that's the thing that's. I think, especially because it's a. It's collaborative. It happens with other people. That's what movies do. That other shit doesn't do. It's just create. Like you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up. Right. That's not him. It's all an illusion. All bullshit. But if you do it really well with, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something, like, all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches, like, these things in ourselves, you know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went through of articulate to you about, like, these moments that were kind of burned into his memory then. Really, the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking. Like, oh, yeah, my father died, or I went through this with my kid, or I'm fucking. I feel fucking alone and miserable. And here's this, like, hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can. Maybe I can do something. You know, they inspire you, they touch you, they move you. And it's the thing to go for. The other thing is, you know, is to tell a lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all. And it's a.

[Matt Damon]

Either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours. And hopefully it breeds compassion.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there when. The most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this. There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget the name.

[Matt Damon]

Right, right.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Tomorrow, something. People find it, but it's great, Great fucking movie. But there's this scene where he's trying to get. He's talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him, and it's so. Fuck. I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawke. It doesn't matter. Like, you're fucking locked in. You're locked in. You're like, oh, shit. Like, that's the magic.

[Matt Damon]

And.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was like, but I'm locked in, too. Like, that's. It's like a hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way. Like, you. You have the lines, but you're living it. And so. And that's either done or it's not done. And when it's not done, you could tell someone kind of just performative.

[Matt Damon]

You feel it when you're watching?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Matt Damon]

If it does that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the magic of film.

[Ben Affleck]

And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part.

[Matt Damon]

For the most part, you don't.

[Ben Affleck]

You're feeling it and it's really happening. Yeah, it's much more like other human.

[Matt Damon]

Beings recognize human beings experiencing real.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. They.

[Ben Affleck]

They're like, I know what sorrow looks like without having to. I can't break it down for you or I even, you know, you. We all know, kind of what, like, oh, he's a little anxious right now, or did I maybe offend him? Or is it, you know, all these little things? And when some. Like in the rare moments when these big feelings or the things happen, you feel it too, you know? And you usually. Like. An example is this old saying about, like, you know, actors try to cry. People try not to cry. Like, because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it. You want to hide it. You want to know, I'm okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like you want to pull the sheet up over you.

[Matt Damon]

But the other thing that's really interesting from. From our side of doing it, because he and I have talked about this a lot, is. And I've always said publicly, like, great actors are good enough for both of you. Like, when you're in a scene with a great actor, that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it, that energy, that place where you go, right.

[Ben Affleck]

They're bringing you right with it.

[Matt Damon]

It's like a fucking tractor beam. They will suck you right in with them. And, like, as quickly as you look into their eyes, and you're like. You're, like, just there. And it's like. And it's not like it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life, you know, it can be the hardest thing in the world, and it can be the easiest thing in the world when you're with a great actor. It just. It's just if the scene's.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, that's the real paradox of, like, all the stuff that I'm the most proud of. The weird thing about us has felt very easy at the time. And the shit where you're banging your head against the wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and the whole thing, and it just ends up fucking feeling empty. And the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is, like, should be harder than this, right? Are we. Are we, like, we working hard enough? Are we. You know, and learn to kind of just trust that it feels good. Let's just keep going, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's some scenes in this movie, without giving too much away, where there's conflict between you two guys. It seems so real. And that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends and you're making the movie together. And you've got this scene where you're acting in this, and with the conflict with the two of you guys, the movie, but it's very real.

[Matt Damon]

The reason that it was real is that I like that scene. The reason it's. It works, I think, is because he's coming at me and he really needs to know something. And I'm completely blanking him. Like, I'm just. He's going, you gotta tell me what's going on, man.

[Ben Affleck]

He's like, it's awesome.

[Matt Damon]

Like, what.

[Ben Affleck]

What is going.

[Matt Damon]

What is the thing? And I'm. And I'm just like literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way, which, like, was really frustrating him in real life because he was that feeling of like, dude, it's. Tell me, dude, it's you and me. Like, when he finally goes screams out, I don't trust you right now. That's a problem, right? Which is like what you would say to an old friend. Like, what are you doing, man? Like, what, what, what are you doing?

[Ben Affleck]

Like, like the betrayal. Tell me the.

[Matt Damon]

The betrayal is me.

[Ben Affleck]

Or tell me the truth. I. Lie to me or tell me and like, step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like.

[Matt Damon]

Give me this weird look of just like, I don't know, you know, like. And so we were doing the scene, it was really pissing him off. I could see him like getting.

[Ben Affleck]

There's the one line that wasn't written that I saw, that I didn't remember doing, was, I would have never you like this.

[Matt Damon]

I would have never you like this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Which I didn't remember saying is George, I like that. Keep that thing. I wouldn't have you. And I was, I thought I was like, what is he. What did I just. You know? And I so watched the playback. It was in those rare moments again, it was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by. By not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made. And it just was confusing and felt like just, you know, leaving you out in the fucking cold. I think the only thing I could rely on is like, I, you know, I, I would. I wouldn't do this to you, you know, so do you have.

[Joe Rogan]

In those moments where you're. You're ad libbing a line where a line comes. Is it just. Just that feels like that's what you say.

[Matt Damon]

It's just kind of like he couldn't stop from saying it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Matt Damon]

You know?

[Ben Affleck]

But you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay. You know what I mean? Because the part of your brain that will like, govern you or tell you something's not okay. Whatever will step in. If it's sort of like, you know, listen, I expect you to fucking do in this box. And there's. There's directors and writers who really do really care about every word. Precisely. And that, you know, and that's. That's how they do it. And that's fine. That could be great too. For me, I find it becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens. If you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines. I don't have to say any of the lines in the scene, then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is, I'm never sitting here talking to you and think, what's my next line? What am I supposed to say? And how should I say that?

[Matt Damon]

And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about the words. It's about what's the scene about what's happening in the scene.

[Joe Rogan]

It's one of the reasons why Curb youb Enthusiasm is so great. Because Larry David just gives you a place to get to.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah. Gives them an. Kind of a loose agenda.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

It's gonna happen.

[Joe Rogan]

And then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And a lot of times that shows about the awkward in between. People are missing each other or not, not sure of themselves. And a little embarrassed.

[Joe Rogan]

Genius show.

[Matt Damon]

It really is.

[Joe Rogan]

And. And. And people. People talk like we're talking. Like you occasionally talk over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one. Like, what. What the fuck are you talking. There's weirdness, too.

[Matt Damon]

Because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen. Right. And that is. That is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think, is. Is it's really all about listening. And like, I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass, and that's how he works, where he. Where you just know the agenda going in. You know, some basic things that you. You know, what your guy needs going in. Like, I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him. And I. This is what I needed to know from him. I needed to secure the house with my guys, and I needed to get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody here was secure. So. And it just. And they. And he put me with a bunch of real combat veterans and we fucking went in and, you know, they're the.

[Ben Affleck]

Thing that does your job for you.

[Matt Damon]

It'S just being around the real people.

[Ben Affleck]

Putting the cops from Miami, you know, on these parts. And it just, like, by osmosis, you feel more legitimate. The thing feels more authentic to the audience. You don't know why, because you don't know what the how. What the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami. But when you see the real guys, you kind of. You're like, yeah, that seems right.

[Joe Rogan]

Miami was a perfect place to have it too.

[Ben Affleck]

Miami.

[Matt Damon]

Well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami. And, and. And the guy who ran that, this guy Chris Casiano, is Joe's friend, and he's the guy that my character's based on. So Chris was Chris. We went, you know, we rode along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them. And then they came up and they were, you know, all in the movie. And Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time. So. So any question, like, little details, all right, how do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the protocol here? All of that stuff was kind of overseen by him. So that it was how they really do it.

[Joe Rogan]

That whole fucking town is so. Did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes. The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail.

[Ben Affleck]

That's what happens. All of a sudden you push so much money into something, right? And it's like before they even kind of figured out, like, you know, and it was. There wasn't even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys, fun drug. But, you know, it's just some statistic about like, you know, the amount of money in the banks in Miami was like the same as the rest of the country.

[Joe Rogan]

More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country, right? Because they were just laundering money, right? And they got away with it. They literally got away with it.

[Matt Damon]

Have you ever flown over Bimini? You know, the.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[Matt Damon]

So if you fly over. Ever fly over Bimini, there are all these, like, Cessnas underwater, all these planes, like around the island. Because what they used to do, Bimini is like the closest. It's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. They would. They would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land on purpose? On purpose, because there's no Runway on Bimini.

[Ben Affleck]

There's no, it's like, fuck it, we're gonna dump the plane.

[Matt Damon]

They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking. Right. And then they'd put it. They'd put it. The Coast Guard like, figures. They're always coming for them. That's why they have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into one of the boats and they got a 1 out of 10 chance of making it. They just scatter and that. And the Coast Guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one. And not. It's just like, nah, it's just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer? But the planes are still all submerged. Like you could. The water's so clear.

[Joe Rogan]

You can see how many fucking. Oh, wow.

[Ben Affleck]

There you go.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. How many fucking planes are out there?

[Matt Damon]

I flew over it probably 20 years ago, but. But I mean, there's.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

I don't know how long. I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't. I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on. Yeah, There you go.

[Joe Rogan]

Wild.

[Ben Affleck]

That's crazy. They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

They land and it's like it.

[Matt Damon]

We can swim five to ten feet of water. And what do they. They land at whatever 55 knots. So you just try to.

[Ben Affleck]

Water looks nice too. Like, yeah, sure. You bound for.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Matt Damon]

It won't be comfortable. But I mean, sully landed at 737. It was right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Fucking wild. What a crazy part of our culture that that happened.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That the. The whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular, like Miami Vice, all that. Like, it shaped the entire country for sure.

[Ben Affleck]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Damon]

I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like. I think he was from Boston and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route and he was like, man, like, we could have gotten away with this forever.

[Joe Rogan]

It was.

[Matt Damon]

Somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught.

[Ben Affleck]

He was like, I had it all.

[Matt Damon]

He was clearly really smart.

[Ben Affleck]

The guys did too. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole lot of people out there that were like, yeah, we had a nice run. That's why I got eight houses. You know, it's like, oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country. There's a lot of people that got very Wealthy. Including banks, which is just really crazy.

[Ben Affleck]

Banks with the jewelry companies. Jag. There was, like, more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than everywhere else in the country. And it was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So. Yep. I guess a lot of people like our cars here.

[Matt Damon]

You don't say. All cash. Sure. Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

We can make you a deal.

[Matt Damon]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about?

[Ben Affleck]

It's probably worth just checking.

[Matt Damon]

When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, at least find out who owned it before you, oh, he's a pilot. Get a truck, get a tractor. It's time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. They were making so much money, they just had to bury it places.

[Matt Damon]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because, you know, that the situation that the cops. Without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can get so much temptation. Yes.

[Ben Affleck]

Like, you take this. These people, you know, you got like, six, seven people, they fucking work for a living at the same bullshit they have to deal with. And there's $20 million, you know, and it's. I mean, it makes for great, like, drama, too, even, like, the. You know, with the performances. Because all of a sudden somebody's thinking, like, okay, how are they going to react? You know, who's gonna be the first person to say, you know, I'm gonna have to turn this all in, you know, and. And, like, getting to play that shit. And for me, also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy. Because I really think movies we're talking about, like, what they do well, what they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

The audience is like, I. You know, I'm gonna go to church for that or fucking school for. I don't need that shit here. But I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job. And. And that there's a lot. Like, there's a lot of value. Like, these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day, and just at the end of, they have done their job like they said they were gonna do, you know, adhere to the ethics that they're supposed to and at the end of the day, be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not stealing the money or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean? And doing all that. And that's the win. The wind doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, save the world from, you know, the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, you know, I quitted myself according to what the fucking expectations were and what am I? True to my word. And I, I think there's so like, that's a. I don't know that that affected me. I found that kind of moving. And, and you can't do it if you create like, if to credit to Joe's script, like just two dimensional characters, oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain. Or this person would never do that.

[Joe Rogan]

That.

[Ben Affleck]

They all have to be real people. Like, it would be subject to like, temptation. And money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's going to make your life better. You're, you know, it's something different to everybody. But, you know, and especially when you're like, you're facing like real, you know, the custody thing or the, you know, the sick relative or, or whatever it is, that's. It's a real thing. Nobody's immune to, to that kind of temptation, you know. Sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty. You're not putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like, undervalued. Like the woman scene where Catalina's like, I get pissed, I get yelled at, I get on. You know what I mean? Like, I'm out here grinding every day, you know, it's. It's a lot, it's a lot to ask. And I think it's, it's worth kind of making that, you know, heroic without sort of indicating too much.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments. It's a, it's a. And that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one movie moment in a movie. We're like, what? Come on, how do you do that? You guys don't have any of those. There's none of that. And I loved it. I loved it. I loved that, that aspect of it too, where it felt like all of it was like, I believed it. I believed it.

[Ben Affleck]

And that's really a credit to Joe and his, like, taste. And that's why we really thought, like, this guy knew how to make narcissists. He kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to. Above all, it has to feel real. And that's why he was open to, like, okay, whatever happens, you throw in a line. Maybe it's good. Can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know? But, like, you got to be able to take that shot. And we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean, I kind of feel for these cops. A bunch of actors descend on you, and they're like, what. What kind of sweatshirt is that?

[Matt Damon]

You know, it was like that Michael J. Fox, James woods movie. Remember that movie? I forget what it was called, but he's. Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods. He's studying him for a character. And James woods is a real leg detective. And he's just like, get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that.

[Ben Affleck]

What kind of hair gel you use?

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. All these questions, you know, but they were very tolerant of us, which was. Which was nice and really, really helpful, you know, because it's all. It's always details. It's always details. It's like, how fastidiously do you. Do you kind of mine for those details? Because I've always been convinced that, like, an audience. It's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. They feel it, they just don't believe it. And it's usually because those details are. You don't get those.

[Ben Affleck]

And that's the only thing. Like, I'm not great at imagining something. Let's invent this. I was just saying everything that I've done, like, that I like, is been a result of something I found in research, like, for the town. I went down and just went through the, you know, all the prisons, you know, out there in Massachusetts, federal prison stations, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks and, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, you want to know, and then sat down with the FBI guys and was like, what are they like? And the great, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in, like, I've been, like, wet Walpole or I'm in the prison Dedham or whatever, and I'm. To some guy, I said, like, after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or up. Anything you remember? The guy was like, yeah. One time, you know, we were coming out of this thing, we robbed this truck, and, you know, we. We had the mask, we got the switch car. We drove around the corner and whatever. We pull up and we get out with fucking guns, the mask, all things. And we look over and it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty. And I was like, right Then he tell me a story. I was like, oh, shit. I was like, what happened? Happened? Yeah. So he looked at us, we looked at him. He looked the other way.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Ben Affleck]

And I was like, really? He goes, yeah. He didn't want to end up on the wall at the vfw.

[Matt Damon]

It was like these guys with full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars.

[Ben Affleck]

I was like, all right, I'm putting that in the.

[Matt Damon]

And it's in the. It's a great moment in the town, like in the movie, because, you know, Renner, they all jump out of the things and then any. Oh, yeah, here it is.

[Ben Affleck]

And was like, it's great.

[Matt Damon]

And it's this awkward. They just stop. And this dude, he sees him. They see him.

[Ben Affleck]

He's like a. We have to kill this guy.

[Matt Damon]

Nope. He turns away.

[Ben Affleck]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Matt Damon]

It's such a great. But that's straight from research, which I always loved that story. And then he. And then the line is here that he put it here and one on.

[Ben Affleck]

Up at the wall of the vfw. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It was a great.

[Matt Damon]

You know, it's a great line.

[Ben Affleck]

It was such a simple explanation for what? Why do you think he. What do you think he did? You know? And why, like. And that's exactly what it would have been. Like, that guy. Next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the vfw.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, and he knew it, and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that. You know, that was. And like, that kind of stuff is. I don't know. Know, it's very human. Human calculations and interact. I mean, it's in a very extreme version of it, but it also doesn't have. Sometimes it's not dramatic at all. You know, it's like, yeah, that was an easy decision. And, you know, the guy never says anything. I didn't say anything. You know, and kind of can't really blame him. You know, it's.

[Joe Rogan]

The town was a great movie too, man. And I. I knew a lot of people like that, you know, from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew A guy was a hitman for Whitey Bulger. I knew a guy who's a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that. For murder. For killing people. Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

What town did you grow up in?

[Joe Rogan]

I lived in Newton. Yeah, I grew up. I lived in Jamaica Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton, but I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. I was mostly training. And so I was around a lot of these, like, very shady characters who were in the fighting world, and a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys that I went to, that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while, and then he got arrested because a guy got killed, and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting him with cocaine to keep him. Keep him awake while they were doing it. And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off. And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that.

[Ben Affleck]

Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now. But he was it somehow or another, at least peripherally involved.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting, but I. I went around and found a lot of. One of the things about being, you know, being an actor, and people will talk to you, you know, which is a amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I kill guys. You know, they'll just come out and, like, it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. Like, these guys in the prison, what the. Are they gonna talk? You know what I mean? But they're, like, interested in it for whatever, and, you know, so. So you avail yourself of that. And then I had, like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew. Yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested. And so, like, people, you know, meet people, you know, and. And talk to him. And it's interesting because the. Such a good lesson for. For doing this job, which is that they're never how you think they're supposed to be. Like, the murderer person.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, there's always something a little. I remember one guy was supposed to be, like this really violent, kind of loose cannon guy who supposedly had done all this, stabbed and killed two people, Faniel hall, and shot these guys in a. In a robbery. And he, like, shows up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in. You know, he's. How's it going? You know, just like, I never would have put this guy on killing four people. You know what I mean, yeah, have a good time. So I love that one movie. And you're just thinking, man, like, this is why. And it's a really good lesson for, like, you know, we tend to read a script and, okay, this guy's the tough guy and he's going to be the. It's like, you work with, like, I had the fucking like the opportunity to train with these Delta guys. Like, you know, it's the most elite special forces combat fucking operators in the world. I mean, both seals will take exception to that. But just numerically, right, there's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta. You meet them and they're not the biggest guys, they're not the toughest guys, they're not trying to fucking be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease. And it, you know, I found myself just being like, finally. I was like, what. Can I just ask, what do you think makes somebody like, qualify for the, the Delta Force? Like, what's a good Delta operator? It's like, you know, problem solving, problem solving. The guy's. Yeah, it's probably like your job. I was like, no, let me say, notice it's really not like my job. I appreciate it. Very big difference. He's like, ah, you saw problems. I get no shot. Kill me. That's the thing. But that, that was the closest insight I got to, which was, I've always kind of thought this about like a. Guys like, like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't get tight and that they are, they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How do you think we should get home? Like, just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, you're in a gunfight and things, you know, I'm sure that does make. Because those are the people where it was, I'd be in a panic and I have no idea what to do. And you get, like, attracted to the person who, who's like, seems to have it. Like, hey, I'm. It's good. We're gonna be okay. Everybody get your. We're going over here. You'll just follow that guy. You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

But it's a good. It's not always the most. Maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not like, I don't, like, I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights, like, have a weapon, you know, like, it's. It's just a. It always. It surprises me what it. How those kinds of, like, extraordinary experiences and people, or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in how they show up.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. We have caricatures in our head of what, like, these tough people are like. Well, you see that about MMA fighters. Like, there's a lot of MMA fighters. You meet them, they're like the sweetest, nicest friendliest people in the world.

[Matt Damon]

I remember going to one of the events in la. I think it was Staples, and. And I was backstage and. And was talking to one of, like, the lawyers for the UFC about. We were talking about Connor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him. And this guy walks up and he's in a, like, chinos, like, khaki pants and like a blue button up, like, you know, kind of business shirt with spectacles. And he's very small, and I kind of don't really regard him. And I'm still hearing this story. And then Padgett goes, matt, do you know Henry? And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And I'm like, this fucking guy could.

[Ben Affleck]

Wreck me right now.

[Matt Damon]

Absolutely fucking destroy me. And he. And he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know what I mean?

[Matt Damon]

Like, he does not. He's not carrying himself, like, he's. He just is the thing, you know.

[Ben Affleck]

And find out a little bit too late. Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Don't find that one out. Yeah, Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of guys do, unfortunately. Yeah, that's. It's. Well, they don't have to prove themselves. Right. They do it all the time the same. Was Delta Force guys like this idea, like this, like, outwardly brash tough guy, usually that kind of machismo, and that's bullshit. That's. You're. You're using that because you're insecure, and the secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly.

[Matt Damon]

Really nice. That's been my experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. It's crazy, right?

[Ben Affleck]

Beautiful, too. You know, I feel like, what a great guy. And you feel like. That's nice of you to be so, so sweet to me, because you. Obviously, you don't have to be. I'll just give you my watch if you want.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, no, it's. It is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what. What a tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is what that is. And as I think one of the beautiful things about film, when a film is really good, is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind like what a person actually is.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

You know, and, and yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

[Ben Affleck]

Look, the fundamental, like, challenge, I think, in life and is like, it's like to find some humility, which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about. And it means that, like, you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point. You know, it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees with you, because him, he's stupid, he's an asshole. You know, like, those are things that actually take work to get to because the, the first instinct, because you just defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is to just.

[Matt Damon]

That it's a zero sum game.

[Ben Affleck]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

That two competing ideas can exist.

[Ben Affleck]

Well, that somebody can't be a good person.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

Like, if you're gonna say it's, oh, you disagree? We don't believe so. I don't know, what about this? What about that? But once you find yourself relying on, like, well, I need to like, zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea, I think that's a pretty good indicator that, like, there's something wrong with the way you're thinking, like, because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you.

[Joe Rogan]

I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Sopranos, is that the main character, the guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer. Yeah, he was like, who would murder his friends? He was a complete mobster and a thug. But you really loved him.

[Matt Damon]

Love the shit.

[Joe Rogan]

It was so complicated rewatching my daughter.

[Ben Affleck]

Doing the part that you found yourself being like, I know. I think you probably has to kill him now. Yeah, but I got to kill.

[Matt Damon]

That's also. That's also great. A great actor. Like, there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire. And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like, freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski. He was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski. And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He's this. He was like a two dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and was supposed to be this kind of dark, looming force over the play. But Brando was like, no, he's a Human being. And I'm gonna play him like a fucking human being. And. And it changed the. The play. But. But Williams, in all of his writings.

[Ben Affleck]

Life in the real world. Yeah, exactly. Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing. And people don't set out to be like, I'm just gonna. Or hurt someone or dominate the world. Like, you think, well, I gotta protect what I have. It's like even, you know, not bringing back this movie. But it's like what I liked about RIP was it was kind of the slippery slope. You know, the first time you take a little money and then, well, you know, I gotta cover that. I don't wanna go to jail. I think my reason why I did that. But now I've told lie. Now I got to cover that thing. And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very. Hey, you protect the people who are with you, and you got to have this fucking. And so now, as to a very similar. Like, by that kind of slippery slope of ultimately find themselves, you know, willing to kill one another because. And it's really not. I don't. I don't believe in that one choice turn. It's like, more, how do you find yourself. You dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the. Trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know, and everybody thinks is, of course, the roots for themselves is like, empathize with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned with. Ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic. It's hard to expect people to go like, all right, and. And what about, you know, like, what they think? And I. And I think that's. I think it's a. It's a much more honest evaluation of people, and it allows for, like, complexity and forgiveness and all the. That that's sort of beautiful about people. Like, rather than this notion of, like, well, we're going to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever, and any infraction, then it's like, permanently stains you.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Like we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled. You know, that. This idea that one thing you said or one thing you did, and now we're gonna exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization in perpetuity. Yeah, it's fucking crazy.

[Matt Damon]

And it's. I was. Because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months or whatever and then come out and say no, but we can't I paid my debt. Like, we're done. Can we be done? The thing about that, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it just never ends. And it's the first thing that, you know, it's just, it just will follow you to the grave, I think.

[Joe Rogan]

What's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye, they have this like desire to chop them down always, you know, and anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy their life. Then they want to just pile on. And you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not talking to. They're not a human being. It's just text on a screen, right?

[Ben Affleck]

Yes. This is like kind of like I was saying, like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, oh, he's in trouble. You know, there's this, you know, human like we have dark up instincts too sometimes to like isolate people or get joy out of someone else's. They're in trouble because maybe because part of it's saying, hey, it's not me, you know, so if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there, we feel safer, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

But it's, it's like, yeah. And to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible a to actually go, all right, yeah, I did that. That was wrong. I get it. You know, because it doesn't matter. Once you've said you've done it, you become like an outcast. And I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, like you're the sum total of who you are is your worst moment.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, it's sort of like the qu. You know, are, you know, I think you want to be judged just as well. Are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say, to forget. You know, there's people that just over and over and over and they're doing horrible shit. Don't care.

[Joe Rogan]

I get it.

[Ben Affleck]

No one's trying to like absolve that. But you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way or else it's kind of one become those things. It's like a get one of ours or one of them. The instinct to get like a team tribal oriented. It just becomes a sport.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. It's also like, who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption? That's crazy. Like that's just denying the very nature of Human beings and that people do things that they regret and they do. And then they become better people because of it. And to.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. Some of the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most have done that they. That they really regret. And you know what's. Yeah. Objectively wrong. And then people have been like, ah, I did that. I. Whether it's like addiction. I got myself down this road. I did this. I did this. They're able to go, I did it. I'm sorry, it's real. I shouldn't have done it. It was wrong. That actually that those people can become someone that's very trustworthy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Because you're like this will say if they've done something, they'll actually look at their own behavior. They'll acknowledge it. And then you feel. You feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you, like, no, I gotta. I always get right. Everything's.

[Matt Damon]

Well, it's like, it's all. It's about evolution. Right. And in our own personal evolution. And we're all on our own path towards that. Like the. The idea of attacking someone. It's like, oh, so you. You aced the test. Like, put your pencil down. Like, you nailed being human. You're done.

[Joe Rogan]

If you nail being human. That's not possible. Because you forgot about the part about forgiveness. I haven't nailed it.

[Ben Affleck]

By definition, if you're out there throwing.

[Joe Rogan]

Stones, it's most of the people that I find. Especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something. Most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past. And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack.

[Ben Affleck]

That's the thing. Like, if I can point my finger, it's like, no one's gonna be.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good guy. He's calling them out.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Meanwhile, you know, if you like.

[Ben Affleck]

Like, yeah. It's like you tell me to see Wake Up, Dead man. The Knives at the third.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's great.

[Ben Affleck]

And I watched. I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting. Like, you know, I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that's. You know. And yeah, I'm aware of all the. Like, like, okay. You know, there's the religion, then there's people who's supposed to rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about, like, what's the role of grace in life? You know?

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And. And A really honest examination of that. Like sitting side by side with. Yeah, okay, you don't believe that, but like, you. And you know, saying it's not about, like, whether it's going to argue over evolution. It's about, like, how graceful are you in your life, life, you know, how much dignity can you afford other people? And are you willing to recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to. To like, to try to sort of be. To find that grace to get better, you know? It was really beautiful and kind of rare and really surprised.

[Matt Damon]

I was really surprised too. I. I kind of put it on and not, you know, not. Not thinking I thought it was gonna be a murder mystery. I loved it. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of the best of the three. It's.

[Matt Damon]

It was my favorite of the.

[Joe Rogan]

Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role.

[Matt Damon]

He's fantastic. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Guy goes from James Bond to that and so many other things as well.

[Matt Damon]

Joshua Connor, that. Who played the priest. Because I first saw him on. On the Crown.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, I liked him a lot.

[Matt Damon]

Man, what an actor. He is really, really good.

[Joe Rogan]

How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend a lot of time watching films? I mean, well, with the company depends.

[Matt Damon]

There's a lot. Like, if we're working as we're watching, watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room, like, there's a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that we have going that, that, that eats into a lot of time.

[Ben Affleck]

Mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing. My issue is really that, like, we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out are more interesting and very like, they're all jammed out at the last month of the year. And so all of a sudden you're trying to race movies. Yeah, right. I got really lucky. Like, like recently my son, you know, 13, decided he wants to like, watch movies, you know, and I like, give him like, what are you. We always looking at tick tock and shit, like, let's watch a movie. And you know, he's kind of blowing me off and rolling his eyes and he's like, you know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind of an asshole. Fundamentally. Like, come on.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Ben Affleck]

You don't know what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, he told me one time, he was like, dad, I said, look, let's watch this movie. I played in the trailer. It was. It Was. I can't remember what the movie was. It was a good movie, and the trailer was good. He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors. Wow. I went and told the editors. I told Billy and Chris back there. I was like, guys, I got news for you.

[Joe Rogan]

But.

[Ben Affleck]

But now he's like, all right, let's watch. Like, what are some movies I should watch? He got Letterbox. He got into that thing, you know, it's like. So I was like. So I said, okay, what are the great movies? I'll give you a list. I start giving him a list. They started watching them. And so, I mean, this is like heaven for me. So it's like, okay, what are you watching? King of Comedy. Like, last week, you watched the Action Driver King of all these Scorsese movies. And it really was like, oh, man. I. I. Because in my mind, I'm like, sure, I've seen that movie. I know. I watched them again. It was. I like, seeing. I realized how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. And it really. And it was just the most beautiful experience for me to watch my son. Like, you, like, taking an interest. And there's the. You know, the older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no, great. But, hey, you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. Guess what? Come to the set now. I'm good.

[Joe Rogan]

You know. Well, it's just too much familiarity, you know, you grow up with a dad as a movie star, just like, the.

[Ben Affleck]

Kids got it, and I get it. You got to be your own person, do your thing. They have all their own. And I get. You know, I never even. So I never expected it from my son. And I don't know that he's gonna. You know, and I wouldn't want to lean on him, like, hey, get into the family business. Most of the time, it's just like, you know, we go to, like, basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

And.

[Ben Affleck]

But it. But this was a really. That was like. I was, like, so joyful. You know what I mean? I sit there and watch the movies with my. My kid. I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life, you know, right here. Watch this movement. And he's like, well, he's telling me what he thinks, you know, just.

[Joe Rogan]

Just like.

[Ben Affleck]

Like, honestly, the rest of it, you can keep it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's awesome.

[Ben Affleck]

That's the best.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's great that you guys still love film. You know that it hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do that you really enjoy it and love it.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it really, like, it was. It was like the. An absolute dream. From the time we were kids, we did fucking high school theater together, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, that's crazy.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, it was like.

[Ben Affleck]

Like we're lucky to get it, and lucky to. The whole idea that you could even. The goal is, like, to make a living, to not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash waiter, contractor, dental assist. You know, like, actually, I can earn money. I can. And we always figured, like, I don't need that much, especially if we have kids.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, okay, we can make a living. Or it's, you know, maybe it's gonna be dinner theater, or maybe it's gonna be right. Maybe it's gonna be.

[Matt Damon]

There'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's something that, I mean, I love when people love things. I, I, I spend time on YouTube watching people, like, fix watches, you know? Like, I, I don't know why, but I, I love when people make furniture. I love. I love watching people do things that they really love, that they're invested in. I think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something, someone who really loves it, and that's what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in the thing you love. To have a purpose.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah. And it's beautiful watching someone else with true purpose.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, very.

[Ben Affleck]

It's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe versus the volcano. He goes in to buy luggage. Sir. He's like. He was. Luggage is the central preoccupation of my life. Guy's a luggage salesman, and he fucking loves.

[Matt Damon]

He loves nothing more than luggage. And, like. And it's the greatest scene. I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was like, can you tell me about that scene? Because we love this scene so much. And he go. And he named the actor. He was a Broadway actor, I guess the guy he came in, he worked for, like, one day in this scene, and he's so good in that movie. And then at the very end, he's showing him all the luggage, and Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying. And so he basically goes like, well, what's the best luggage. He goes, well, if. You know. And he opens the means. If I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it and Tom Hanks is like. Like, I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live to be a thousand years old. This is the greatest day of his life.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, God, that's amazing. You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man. Saving Private Ryan, that opening film. The Storming of the beach.

[Matt Damon]

Unbelievable.

[Joe Rogan]

That might be the. The most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made.

[Matt Damon]

So I remember reading the script and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written, and I came late because I'm only in the. He shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last, you know, the last act of the movie, basically. And, and. And he told me on set, I was saying how. I go, how did it go? The beginning, you know, there's that. All that dialogue with them on the boat coming in and. And Stephen goes. He just goes, I cut. I cut all of that out. He goes. He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Matt Damon]

And that was when I was. Was like, oh, my God, this movie is going to be unbelievable. I think Tom says, like, I'll see you on the beach or something. He scre. You know, guys are puking. Look at the man next to you. Yeah, Remember, he's not going to live through that. That was the script, right?

[Ben Affleck]

Remember that?

[Matt Damon]

It was. It was. Look at the man next to you. He won't live. You know, like two out of three of you are going to die. So look at to your left, look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of. Cuz they're not going to make it. You know, it was stuff like that. And Steven's just like, nope.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Matt Damon]

No, these guys are puking everything. It's like the things up, you could just hear, you know, and it's just like. And then just boom. And you're into it. And also they did this incredible, like cinema changing. Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Open the show, open the shutter, all the way. Skip the bleach process in developing the film.

[Matt Damon]

I don't. And I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there. Maybe. But I just remember maybe it's just the open shutters. Just.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, but it just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly if you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives you this. The illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light. Each frame takes a super sharp picture. And when you run those together, like, the piece of dust goes.

[Matt Damon]

And so the mortar explosions are going. And you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing. You know what I mean? And it's just. And nobody had ever done it.

[Ben Affleck]

It's just the master of the thing.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea and it's. That's just masterful. Like, that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, I, Spielberg, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Ben Affleck]

That's how you do it.

[Matt Damon]

That's.

[Ben Affleck]

This is like you say, one of the things, a guy that's passionate and also, you know, caring about something, you know, it's con. That. That with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And it's, I think, why we love to see that, whether, you know, sports, you know, fighting or whatever it is. There's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

That person, when you go fuck, like when you see Michael Jordan, like, that was that whole movie that we did airs really all about, like, what does it mean to be great? And how does it, like, touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives? Because somebody's just better at that thing than anybody else in the world. It's transfixing. I mean, I find that really fascinating. People who are great at something and the mystery of, well, what is that like? And what does that do to your life? And how did you get that way? And what does it take, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything.

[Ben Affleck]

I. I've seen that in various ways, like in that kind of just empirical, personal study. I haven't seen anybody who, I think, like, qualifies for that, who didn't also seem to be really suffering. 100, you know, and you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the greatest. And the, you know, interviewers always, how do you feel right now? There's that sense of sense that, like, either it's never finished or it's never enough, or they can't enjoy it or they're carry. It's a line we put in air where it's like, and you have to be that. You have to be that thing, you know, like it's a kind of a burden too in a way. 100 and I just see that. And that's why we, we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, you know, flourish, have their life and have it all enhanced. There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too. And I, I, it's, it's, yeah. That's like you say, there seems to be a real cost.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things and the obsession that you have to be the best at something. You have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else. You have to have this single minded focus and that comes with a cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships. You feel like a piece of.

[Ben Affleck]

And you see that up close and like that's not admirable.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Ben Affleck]

No. You don't give a about anybody else. No, I do. I just care about this more. You know, it's like, so imagine that you're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it. And you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it and you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's, it's complicated. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's, it's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationships.

[Ben Affleck]

Right, right. Right. That's right. Maybe that's why I say don't meet your heroes.

[Joe Rogan]

There's something to it, man. There really is. But it's just, just, we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that, that hits you and lights you up.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Where you want to do more, you want to be better, you want to whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do, do you become more. Whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film. Yeah. A great song. Yeah. It lights you up and it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes that like we consume to make our culture move forward.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. You know, there's like a sacrificial element to it. The people that do it and we all feed off of it, you know, and it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right. But in great filming, how Many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films. Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out. And I. I saw it and immediately ran around the block I've never worn in my life. I was eating raw eggs, right? I'm like, this is gonna change my life. Like, it. There's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being.

[Ben Affleck]

I remember where I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the movies, watched that movie. And I remember leaving. I mean, I was 19 or something, thinking, I want to be a better man. I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and this and the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had. But I remember having it and. And kind of being surprised by it, you know, and it does. It. It. That can. You know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of people's work and. And that's why you get that, like, you know, you, You. You see people, you want to let them know, you know what I mean, and tell them. And I always think people come to go, hey, I love that movie. I always feel like, you don't have to say that. You know what I mean? It makes me kind of uncomfortable. And I don't ever, like, like, put myself in with those figures who I think are like, no, but there's these. These towering giants who have done this, you know?

[Matt Damon]

I don't know.

[Ben Affleck]

It's, it's, it's, it's. It's. I finally kind of arrived to a place where I was like, those uncomfortable. Oh, I saw a good one thing. It made me want to go out to Hollywood and write a script. And I think, oh, you know what I mean? Like, sorry, man. Like, at a certain point I figured, okay, you know what? Whatever it is, like, great. Well, that's the thing that.

[Joe Rogan]

The cost of your fame, you know, that you have to. There's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you, and they want to say those things to you. And like, wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things right.

[Ben Affleck]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is. It's so counterintuitive. You think, like, once you become really successful, you make a bunch of great things. It's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you. Like, no, no, no, I'm doing something else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your life.

[Ben Affleck]

So I can't be satisfied or take any joy in that because I, I don't think I'm good enough. I need to. You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Never satisfied. Yeah, you can't. And that's the, the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied.

[Ben Affleck]

You see it in a lot of the fighters. The same kind of thing. The great fighter.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's, there's only like a certain amount of years. We could burn the RPMs at the red line and then eventually the knees go, the back goes, you start.

[Matt Damon]

Is it earlier than other sports? It must be.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, I think so, because, like, Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he, you know. How old is Tom now?

[Matt Damon]

48. Probably 47 or 8 now. Probably.

[Joe Rogan]

I bet he could still play, you know.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, I mean, but that's a. Yeah, I mean, that's a very specific skill position. And the way he played it, he, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, but running back, no, right, right, right. But at cornerback. The elite levels of mma, especially with USADA testing and, you know, and now drug free sport testing, when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone, all these different things. Like, you have nine years, you have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate.

[Matt Damon]

Like, how long's Jon Jones been going?

[Joe Rogan]

Sean Jones is a freak of all freaks, because Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on coke. That was one of the funny things he said in the, in the press conference for the rematch, Daniel was talking shit. He goes, I beat you when I was on coke. I mean, he was getting arrested, he was partying for. When he fought Gustafson, he beat Gustafson and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer, he's like, he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never training. He could just show up and beat everybody's ass.

[Matt Damon]

I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight. And he goes, I had the chance to spar with Jon Jones, to work with Jon Jones. And he goes, I knew about it months ahead of time. He goes, I got every, my nutrition, everything was absolutely flawless. I got my sleep, everything was on. He goes, I show up at the gym that morning, he goes to me and five Other guys, he goes, he comes in. I think he went to sleep at 4 in the morning or something. He's out all night. And he goes, he ran through all six.

[Joe Rogan]

That's my buddy, Brennan Schaub.

[Matt Damon]

Is that who it was?

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

It was the funniest story. And he goes. And then I just knew, you know, like, that's a level. Like, but imagine being that elite and, and realizing there's another level.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and Jon wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It was a lower weight class. And he just beat everybody's ass. And he said, this is his warm up, Everybody up. I mean, he has a unique aptitude for mma. But also he had two brothers that were Super Jones.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Played for the Patriots and Arthur.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And so these guys are super athletes and so they're beating the out of each other all the time. So they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes. From the time he was a child, so he was just so tuned into competition and he was so intelligent. Like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's and he would study tape meticulously.

[Matt Damon]

Well, that, that, that spinning kick that he did, that stipe miochae where he, where he said he. And I think he thanked his taekwondo coach and he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Because of something he saw in the tape. And he, and he got it off and hit this guy so hard. Not even on, not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side and you see it shudder through his entire, like, organ structure.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. His heel was deep into his body cavity, like all the way up to his gnarly.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

And, but he, it's, but he, he, he just practiced this one specific. And he was like. And he even said, he goes. It is a devastating shot. Like.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

There's not a human being who could take that.

[Joe Rogan]

No. It's like getting hit by a car.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because when you think.

[Matt Damon]

But getting hit by a car in one spot.

[Joe Rogan]

Size of a foot. Yeah, that's 13 foot.

[Matt Damon]

Oh, yeah, Here it is. Watch this.

[Joe Rogan]

He sets him up. Boom.

[Matt Damon]

It's just, it's like. Yeah, no, it's over. It's over, it's over.

[Joe Rogan]

And this is John moving up to heavyweight. Because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two division champion. I mean, John was a freak.

[Ben Affleck]

You see it rumble through.

[Joe Rogan]

And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent Leg right. Which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight. And so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick. So I'm just gonna work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.

[Matt Damon]

Wow. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

That's just.

[Ben Affleck]

It's not just the physical stuff. He's also like a genius.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's also like, he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short notice fight. Even a guy that he could beat any day of the week. You can wake him up at 3:00 in the morning. He could that guy up. He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. Well, it's just, you know, greatness. But John's troubled. You know, John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy, and he's, you know, he's a wild fella and, you know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure has cost him a lot of in his personal life. But, you know, when he knocks DPE out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, for that moment, he's on top of the world, you know, but then again, it's like the same thing. You're. As soon as you get back, like, what's next? You know, there's another challenge. It doesn't matter how many, how many people love you now, like, it's not good enough. There's someone else looming. You got to beat this guy.

[Ben Affleck]

That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the, like, complete compulsion to have to get to the next level. And the next level keeps moving the goalposts.

[Joe Rogan]

I'll never forget I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn, he lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn. And I'm interviewing him inside the Octagon. He said, I'm gonna be honest with you, it was actually a relief. And he goes, the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever in the who facing you, he goes, I'm gonna be on. I thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a guy to say that, who is, you know, just this amazing human being, this warrior to say, I just gotta be honest. It's a relief. Losing my title feels like a relief. And I was like, wow, like that. That is so, so brave to be that honest in front of the. Because everybody's like, you just got your ass kicked. It's like I'm, this is a relief. I, you know, I took a burden off my back. I'll be back. I'm gonna regroup. But I, I needed that. I needed to just step off the top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ.

[Ben Affleck]

You gotta be like a great, actually relief to be able to say something nice. That's kind of a gift. Instead of feeling like you gotta hide or pretend it and go. Yeah, it was a lot to carry and I, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed. You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these, these round will they take like. Yeah, yeah, Smoke up. They're taking like, you know, five guys and they're rotating them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys. So you got one guy who's fucking warmed up, getting, you know, getting ready for you, and then you're fucking out of breath and they'll give you a 30 second break instead of a minute. And then they're throwing in these monsters and you know, you're exposed, you're, you're getting beaten training, you're getting smothered in training, you're, you're exhausted. You know, you're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You got to hit them and then they got to figure out where their limit is. And okay, next week we're going to do one extra round. We're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking, you're always, you're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to. And you can only maintain that. Like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that.

[Ben Affleck]

No.

[Matt Damon]

Right, right.

[Joe Rogan]

You can only get, you have to.

[Matt Damon]

Aim at that one moment.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to peak. And then if you up and over train, which a lot of those guys do, just because they're such savages, they never want to leave the gym. Then they don't peak right. And then they come in and they're exhausted, they didn't recover properly. And then in between rounds, they're too tired and they can't go out for the Next. They're too beat up. That happens too.

[Matt Damon]

I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you over train. Oh, God.

[Joe Rogan]

In an actual championship and you realized you're you. There's no. You can't bounce back. And this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore.

[Matt Damon]

Do you think. Who was it? Was it Khabib who said that they should just do 25 minute? Just.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, a lot of people said that.

[Ben Affleck]

That.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, that's a. What songs are playing. What's going on. Fucking technology.

[Matt Damon]

The Teske brothers playing in my pocket.

[Joe Rogan]

That's hilarious.

[Matt Damon]

Sorry about that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, hoist. Gracie always said that like that was how he fought in the early days.

[Matt Damon]

They just straight 25 minutes because he.

[Joe Rogan]

Was like, look, he goes, if we're on the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds. And he goes, I need time to cook them. That's what he would say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what Jiu Jitsu is all about. Jiu Jitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted and you know, and then they eventually finish you like A.

[Matt Damon]

Like A.A. constricted.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's the real. That's. But you know, there's this balance of like making it interesting for this for people to watch. I. I've been a proponent of have no stand ups. Don't ever stand anybody up when a guy takes you down. Like, you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when.

[Matt Damon]

You didn't earn it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing, if he's holding you down and you can't get up. That's how it should be. So it's more realistic. But it's the balance of it being a sport people want to watch.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Making it because people get. When people grab someone and take them to the ground, nothing at people go, boo. You hear it in the audience. And then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up. And I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up.

[Matt Damon]

I never thought of it that way. That the beginning of the round starts.

[Joe Rogan]

It to the advantage of the always, always, always. You're in a position you didn't earn, you never got back up. You know, I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round, because it's one fight, it's not five fights. So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, right. In a way, you're pitching, like. How quickly would the UFC go out of business? Real quick, 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's minutes, 24 and a half minutes.

[Joe Rogan]

Dude, I'm a terrible businessman. I would give the fighters more money. I would fuck up the whole business model. I would get rid of the cage. I would have them all fight in a basketball court, just put mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to get back up. Because you press your back up against.

[Matt Damon]

Your cage, you can use it to.

[Joe Rogan]

Stand back up again, and you're in the middle of the center of a mat. It's very different. Difficult to get back up. And that's realistic.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know you're using a foreign object to help you perform.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage, and it's like they lock you in there. Yeah. It's just. But, I mean, in terms of, like, inspirational performances and things that you. When you see, like, the human spirit elevated to the. The highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three months, and then, you know, the referee's like, are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go. And it's like that moment, like, is. It's not. Not like anything else in all sports.

[Ben Affleck]

I think that's the moment that, like, people show up for.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

They build the intense. It's the same with, like, the old Tyson fights or whatever. Like, now it's gonna happen.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And there's. There. You can't help but have that feeling once it. You know, and, yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever, but they're. That moment is always there.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness, because, like, you could dedicate your whole life. You could get up in the morning at the right time, you could eat all the right foods, you could do all the right training. And then you see that guy. There's nothing I can do. I have no chance.

[Ben Affleck]

So he had to look at his eye. It was one of the only fighters where you just see the other guy was scared.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Usually they at least hold himself together where they come off, like, oh, I don't know, this guy looks pretty tough. Guys would fight Tyson and just would start, and they'd feel that moment, too. Oh, they're letting this tiger out. And here he comes. And it was like, well, we're old.

[Joe Rogan]

Enough to remember when he was in his prime, and those fights were, like, executions. You didn't want to pay.

[Ben Affleck]

I remember when he was for the.

[Joe Rogan]

Pay per view, because they were so fast.

[Matt Damon]

I swear. I mean. I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife, and she was crying, crying. And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring, and she. But by the way, for good reason, like, this man might kill my husband.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Matt Damon]

You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Like, we're certainly gonna beat the. Out of him. And she knows it, and the world.

[Ben Affleck]

Knows it, and guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude? A hurricane or whatever, white kid who fought him, Pete McNeely, when he came, this guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He had it ready, like, you know, he was ready to go. All right, that's it. That's good.

[Matt Damon]

The bell rings, he picks up the towel.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, you got one job. Save your guy, guys. Like, you know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

McNeely's up now, too. When you hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to hear.

[Matt Damon]

Oh, really?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport of. Of MMA and of fighting. You know, you. You talk like, I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times.

[Matt Damon]

Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, like, that's what I said. And I'm like, holy, man. And he seems normal. Like, he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words, and they're still fighting. Their words all mumbled together like, you have no idea how much they're struggling.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, and they'll. They're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life. It's not going to get better. It's going to get way worse because the real brain damage occurs, like, 10 years after the. The injuries. That's what it really said.

[Matt Damon]

Really.

[Ben Affleck]

It starts, like, just keeps getting worse.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now. There's, like, they. They do. And Knoxville did some of it, like, this magnetic therapy that they do that Re stimulates neuron growth and, and oddly enough, mushrooms like psilocybin has been shown.

[Ben Affleck]

All of a sudden cure a whole bunch of.

[Joe Rogan]

I know. Well, probably always has.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. Right. You know, all of a sudden acknowledging it. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers. Because it's always been kind of like a left wing wing thing to be into psychedelics. But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from, from you know, bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions. And the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas, former governor Rick Perry has started the ibogaine initiative. So they're using ibogaine to help all these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president. Yeah. Remember when he sank Ed Muskie's.

[Ben Affleck]

What is ibogaine?

[Joe Rogan]

It's from the iboga tree. And it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24 hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from. You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Jesus. Yeah. And with addictions it has an 80%, I think it's 84%. With one treatment, they quit whatever they're hooked on.

[Matt Damon]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

Not only that rewires the brain so the physical pathways to addiction, like someone stick to opiates, gone completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80 plus percent of people.

[Matt Damon]

That's incredible.

[Joe Rogan]

With two treatments, it's in the 90s.

[Matt Damon]

That's amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you know, since like 1970 in this country. The sweet like a clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worth a veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man. He realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started getting behind this ibogaine initiative. They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're going to do it with police officers. And I mean police officers experience more ptsd. Like I, I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said. And he was also in the military. And he said, what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw a police officer, really. He goes, I was seeing death and violence on. On a daily basis. He goes, when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're. You're going to see some horrible. But you're going to see some horrible mixed in, you know, over a course of time where, you know, you go out and things go live. It goes like, every day.

[Matt Damon]

Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life.

[Joe Rogan]

And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you. Like, you have no idea.

[Ben Affleck]

You're.

[Joe Rogan]

You're pulling up to tinted windows, you don't know what the. Is going on. You're running the plate, the license is expired. You have no idea who's. Who's in the car. You don't. You don't know anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've all seen videos of cops getting shot down, like, when they're pulling over a car. We've all seen it. And so these guys are living with this PTSD all the time, and then they have to live in real life. They're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor, and their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos. And ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just. Just sort of come down and try to find the root of all this stuff and. And get them off pills and. And get them on the straight.

[Matt Damon]

That's great.

[Ben Affleck]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

It's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well, ibogaine, because during the. During the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors. And it's in the documentary. What is that documentary? Is it Fear and Loathing? Gonzo. Yeah, Gonzo. That's right. In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it. So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett, and he goes. He goes, yeah. He goes, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muskie was on ibogaine. And I knew about it because I started that rumor.

[Ben Affleck]

Sold it to him.

[Joe Rogan]

So the guy completely cracked. So, like, this guy was like a front runner for the president, and he fucking completely cracked. Cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around like, saying, there's these Brazilian witch doctors are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy. That's great.

[Ben Affleck]

They were like. And Hunter would know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but it's crazy that he chose ibogaine too, because ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug and it's not a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that stops addiction.

[Ben Affleck]

But that he was the guy that would have the full cap. That whole book's full of these esoteric drugs you never heard of.

[Joe Rogan]

They mentioned a really casual way. Like of course four of us stopped.

[Ben Affleck]

To get ibogaine at the one gas station that sold it between needles and nothing. Yeah, sure. No, of course you do.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But it does help people that have brain damage as well. It's, it's supposed to like cause some sort of neuro regeneration.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's stuff out there that can help people, but a large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering and we don't ever hear about it.

[Ben Affleck]

They say like it's supposed to be that. It's like the argument is, is because it's, you know, they're not using a glove like that football supposed to be. I mean, wasn't that the sort of rationale that like you were gonna have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves.

[Matt Damon]

No, but it's, remember it's all, it's like the sub concussive blows. It's like it's not necessarily the one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated kind of like small blow, like little bit of brain.

[Ben Affleck]

I'm sure that's like they're all bad for you, you know what I mean? Like a version of knocks to the.

[Matt Damon]

Head or not, I think be avoided.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, it's also what you take in training too. We're only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's four.

[Matt Damon]

How many rounds does he have right in the gym?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, training camp is brutal. And depending upon how intelligent your camp is, like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live. But you do it with trusted, you know, they're, they're very close to you. These are people that you care about and love, so they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose. But sometimes not. Like, sometimes you're in a hostile gym and you know, you got a spar with people you don't even know. They're from other countries, you have a big name, they're trying to take you out. You know, it's. But the, the amount of damage these guys take me, I don't know if football's better or worse. They're all. The thing about football is the big impacts are way worse because when you've got a 300 pound super athlete.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, that's full tilt all the way from across. Boom.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

I mean, running start.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. You're getting hit by a truck and that, but that doesn't, it's, it's not targeted necessarily at your head. So it's like, what, what is better and what is worse? You know, boxing's bad. You know, it's like, like you have less options. MMA is slightly better because if, especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground, but it's ultimately you're paying a price. Yeah, sure, but for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the 16, 000 people are on their feet screaming. There's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it. And those guys chase that high for their entire life. And then after it's over, they, you know, they feel oddly detached.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

And nothing ever rises to that level again.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. You can make films until you're 100 years old. You know, you can make great films forever. You can do the thing that you love forever. They have a little window. A little window. That's great.

[Matt Damon]

That's the really tough thing about being an athlete. Like, I.

[Ben Affleck]

You're talking to Pete Sampras that time we met years ago, and he was like, we were probably, I don't know how. We were 30, he was 32 or something like that. And he was kind of. We were like, oh, my God. You know, he had all these fucking, you know, wins and Grand Slams and he, he had a kind of vaguely like, yeah. He was like, yeah, you guys, look, I'm about to retire. I'm finished. And we're, you know, young guys, were.

[Matt Damon]

You know, just getting started. You know what I mean? Like, we're also. The thing is, you get better at your job the more you do it.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

You know, and so it's that thing with the athlete. I was having this conversation the other day. It's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning, but you become a better, you know, better at your sport.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

You know, as your skills are declining.

[Joe Rogan]

The body just doesn't want to do it anymore.

[Ben Affleck]

You've got to just come to, like, become Greg Maddox, you know, and compensate with all the tricks and location and. But like. And that's why that drama of, like, the aging athlete is so powerful. You still have. It's like all do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you know, is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor Belfort was. He won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old. That was like the first event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was like one of the all time greats for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy and boy, did he use it. Okay, because I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy. And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because he was terrifying. Because he has the mind of a veteran.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25 year old. And so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire.

[Matt Damon]

So they're not allowed to use testosterone?

[Joe Rogan]

No. They can't use anything? No, no.

[Matt Damon]

Joe, how about peptides? Can they use peptides?

[Joe Rogan]

Nope, nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and reform that. But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries heal quicker and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally. And it'll, it just makes you more healthy for a very unhealthy job where you're, you know, you're getting hurt all the time. It's, it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. And it's also, there's no long term damage that's going to do like steroids, where it shuts down your endocrine system. So I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many loopholes and so many people cheat. Big camps used to hire scientists, so they had a scientist on staff that was not only. Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff that, that would slip by the test because there's like, you know, the BALCO stuff with Barry Bond, the clear. There's, there's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through and there's a lot of experts that have like one of the things is animal derived testosterone. So testosterone, one of the. They do, they use a carbon isotope test, I think, I believe that's what they use to figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios. They go, well, no, it all seems likely. He's just, he's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam? Believe it or not. Yes. Yeah, it's not, it's not animal derived testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and.

[Matt Damon]

They can determine, they can determine that it's a yam based testosterone.

[Joe Rogan]

It's exogenous, not endogenous. But if they could figure out a way to. And there's a lot of proof of concept of this, can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources? Bull testosterone, something like that? Well, the taurine they used to inject Hitler with tornado chlorine. You know, Hitler was like a guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of on him and one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him virile. Yeah, but, but there probably are athletes right now that are using some that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, no, no, no loopholes, no IVs, no nothing.

[Matt Damon]

No IVs, no IVs, vitamins and.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and, and, and mask steroids by over flooding the body with liquids. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then when you.

[Ben Affleck]

Because like you add more water.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yes. You would just fill them up with saline and then when they go to piss, like nope, clean.

[Matt Damon]

Look at the ratio.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, because it's like so much water is being processed through the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it, especially with like things that you would add. Add to the iv. So there's no, you can't. It's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like Thorne, like Thorne supplements where it's third party tested so they don't, they can't do anything, but for a while they let them do it. And those TRT VTour days are my favorite fights to watch.

[Ben Affleck]

Did they stop doing fighting because they thought it was like advantaging certain people or they happened that they're like this is up or.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, they like, look at the difference. That's trt vtour on the left and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it. Look at the difference.

[Matt Damon]

Jesus.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, that's stunning. On the left though, dude, that was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude. When I stood next to him at the weigh ins, he had muscles on his teeth. He goes, this dude was so jacked. He was so scared. I was like, what the is he on? He goes. He knew he was on something. Something. It's just. It's cheating. It really is. Because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings because that's what a lot of guys. There was a few fighters that were pulled from cards because, like, say if a really high level is like 1100, they were testing like 18, 1900. They were like people that have never lived before.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

They were like a science project, different species. And they were saying insane confidence because they were essentially like a raging gorilla. Yeah, right. They were just insanely confident and just. It's just so fired up. Like they couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just maniacal. They're a berserker, you know, so you. It's not a person anymore now. Now you're a science project. It's not. You know, there are rare outliers who, like Tyson when he was in his prime, his rare physical specimens. And like, that's part of the game. But that's. God, you know, that's nature. This is not, you know, BALCO labs. And so they won't allow them to do anything anymore. And that's why. It's because too many. And Vitor was one of the guys that tested like way over the line. And then they just decided, yeah, yeah, right.

[Ben Affleck]

But that's what they're gonna do.

[Joe Rogan]

If you say, if you say it's.

[Matt Damon]

Legal, they're just gonna take as much.

[Ben Affleck]

Good. More is better. And you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. If you say, oh, you did one cc a week, they're like, I heard five, I heard five. And these guys are just training five times a day and they never get tired and they recover like that. That so. And then they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they, they heal like you're a six year old, right? You know, you just. Your body just like Wolverine.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about Peptides too. The Wolverine stack, BP157 and TB500. I don't know if you ever get injured, if you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB500.

[Matt Damon]

I didn't hear about TB500.

[Joe Rogan]

Which.

[Matt Damon]

What's that one?

[Joe Rogan]

Thymosin beta 500 in conjunction with BPC157. It is a phenomenal stack and just really helps injuries.

[Matt Damon]

I didn't know they called it the Wolverines.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what they call it, the Wolverine.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because you heal incredibly well. Like, you like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player, pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I. I shot that right into my hamstring for two weeks. And I was right back on the field.

[Matt Damon]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, that's nuts.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I go, what is a normal rehab? He goes, three months. He goes, in two weeks. I was back on the field. I go, what the. He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He goes. But to me, it's like. Like, I pulled my hamstring. I'm now for X amount of days. He goes, in two weeks later. I was playing full tilt.

[Ben Affleck]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm like, that's nuts.

[Matt Damon]

And going right into the area of the injury.

[Joe Rogan]

Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's, you know, systemic. So you just, like, stick it in your fat, your. On your side. But he's like, no. And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area. And it just has just like, cortisone or whatever.

[Ben Affleck]

What is the.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone just. Just massive.

[Ben Affleck]

Numbs it or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

Not only that, it has a tendency, if you do it too many times, to weaken tendons. Yeah, yeah. And so it could actually exacerbate the problem. Because it takes away the pain, right? Yeah, it takes away the pain. But, I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year, where they're like, I know.

[Matt Damon]

My friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the. The drug Olympics for cash. He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then the advanced games, they're doing. I sent him a T. I was like, they're doing it? Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

It's just like, I'm down.

[Matt Damon]

I love.

[Ben Affleck]

Let's see what a human being can do.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was.

[Matt Damon]

One of the most exciting baseball. It was pretty exciting.

[Ben Affleck]

That's why they didn't do anything. Right. It was not a mystery to anybody.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

But Avery's tuning in. The Bash brothers, right. Baseball on a strike break. You know, they almost destroyed that league. And then people started watching, and then Bonds is like, well, these two guys are in this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball. Which he was.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Ben Affleck]

And when he did it, it lights out.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, I mean, he had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times. 162 games, three and a half bats a game. Only swung and missed 20. I mean, that's just, you know, and, yeah, McGuire get, like. Just like move his wrists to get the ball out of the park. And it was like, it was fun to watch.

[Joe Rogan]

And when people say, like, steroids don't make you a better athlete. Well, they don't meant B. Don't make you a better.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you're a Barry, if you're.

[Matt Damon]

Already an elite athlete. Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

It makes.

[Joe Rogan]

If you let Jon Jones do all the juice he wants. God, he'd be fighting until he's 50 and people up and you say, john, we've really come to our senses. Like, this sport's all about excitement. Want to give the people what they want. Give people. Let people make informed choices based on their own discretion.

[Ben Affleck]

Oh, it's like, welcome back.

[Joe Rogan]

Then all of a sudden, John looks like Vitor in that picture.

[Matt Damon]

He'd be undefeated.

[Joe Rogan]

By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime. And Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended, popped it went backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way, a wooden tap. And then beat him in the next.

[Matt Damon]

Round with one arm.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep, one arm. His arm was for like a year after that. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Give that man some steroids. Let's see what he.

[Joe Rogan]

Steroids. Let him be the king of the world.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

The dream Team. It's like, you remember the first time the. The pros went to the Olympics, Whatever the years won every game by 70 points.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.

[Matt Damon]

It was fun.

[Joe Rogan]

The argument for that made sense, though, because, like, these other people are being compensated in their countries.

[Ben Affleck]

Oh, yeah. I had no problem then, by the way. Now it's got more. That last Olympic championship was. That was great game against France. That was fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they're. They're gonna wreck some smaller countries and stuff, but, okay, you're playing pros, they're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Ben Affleck]

It's, it's, it's like people find like a convenient definition of it according to what's there. Like, you see in college sports is changing and stuff. Like, look, I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly, but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to like, for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal and like. No, no, no. You guys, you're getting, you're getting education, right? It's like a little bit like. Yeah, you know, education. You guys are making a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play.

[Joe Rogan]

It's exploitation. Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats. And they, they deserve that money.

[Ben Affleck]

Not everyone's going to be in the NFL. Well. Right. You know what I mean? Some of them. That's their window to make that money. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard.

[Joe Rogan]

It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there.

[Matt Damon]

It's constant.

[Joe Rogan]

Constant. Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

And, and, and the, the, the metrics for. It's like, what is it, a two, two and a half year career or something?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon]

Depending on your position. But I mean, it's, it's such a long.

[Ben Affleck]

Seems just fair and obvious. So you pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college but not to like.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know, Come on.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body. Like acting.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You can, you could kind of do it forever, you know, keep going so.

[Ben Affleck]

You lose it, you know? Yeah, it's really. Yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect and it's a lot. But like, okay, great. If it's, if you get a really bad on yourself and then the expectations. Well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you guys decide, like, on projects that you choose? Like, I'm sure you have so many options now. Like, what, what makes you say, this is what I'm gonna spend the next six months doing?

[Matt Damon]

It's really. I mean, there are a bunch of different factors. Like, like the director is being the most important one. But, but if you read a script and, and like, we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that that if we read something and it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know, you get that kind of emotional. Something happens when you read it. You go, okay, well then you pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, wait a minute. You know, if it moves you in that way, then you know, ultimately the big decision is saying yes because you're gonna spend the last point of which.

[Ben Affleck]

You have total control, you know, and then you're in.

[Matt Damon]

Then you're in and, and you're, and you're in. Whether it's good or bad. I mean I've been on those movies where I knew a month into a six month shoot that like this is not gonna work and that, that is, that is the.

[Joe Rogan]

What is that?

[Ben Affleck]

Like it's the worst.

[Matt Damon]

It is. I, I came to think of that. It happened to me.

[Ben Affleck]

They're gonna shoot us all when it comes out.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, okay.

[Matt Damon]

It's like it's all bad. It's like it's, it's gonna be going to be 80, 16 hour days in a row and then a post production period that's going to be pretty fraught and then it's going to come out and we're going to get fucking crushed.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you're going to have to sell it. You're going to have to walk the.

[Ben Affleck]

Fucking plank and sit down with access.

[Matt Damon]

You know what I mean?

[Ben Affleck]

Like, so saw the movie.

[Joe Rogan]

How important is that stuff still today? Like the press stuff, is that still important? It is.

[Matt Damon]

I don't know to what degree each specific thing is.

[Ben Affleck]

I mean it's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today and remember we were saying, I was like, we were doing this show. This is probably more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie.

[Matt Damon]

Like we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the, the quick ones with all the outlets.

[Ben Affleck]

Five minute interviews, all the, the evening.

[Matt Damon]

Shows, today shows, all that stuff and, and this just given how many people listen to the show will be more meaningful. We think, I mean that's our, we.

[Ben Affleck]

Were speculating, but historically, right, if you look at it, that's it. Because they've changed to like all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and, and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick. And you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing, it looks great and nobody cares. Like they're looking to Go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted. And a trusted person is in like your, like you said your feed, right. And it's your friend or your cousin or they affix that to somebody which has become a more rare thing. Like who's like a legitimate neutral arbiter. I can't predict what they're going to say before I go there. There are fewer and fewer of those people in the world. Even those are proliferation of more and more voices. And it's kind of paradoxical. Like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like a seven second. You know, we had an advertising company, we do most of the spots that we release. Like 15 second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most people see. And then there's this one form which is like long form discussions that are whatever two hours long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form and that's why you see these are getting more popular. Obviously have this massive audience and it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend. And I think, and I don't know that it probably has something to do with like who do I think is authentic and am I actually gonna willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through and that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also the voice of the public too because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that. It just takes off organically now.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. And that has more, more weight than any anything you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, hey, this is great, you should see it. I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me like, you know who I respect, you got to see that thing that means more to me than anything.

[Matt Damon]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of a like telling the same, you know, like telling the same like story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain, like, limited reach, which it's just not that efficient. But you have to, because it's like, well, we sat down with our own Trisha Tanaka and talked about the, you know, and you kind of do that, and ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that, in that market, but I think ultimately it's like more and more people see, realize they're being sold to see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of it. They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie, you know what I mean, the good and the bad, and then we gotta decide, well, which one? And who can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to be that, like, the word of mouth, your friend, and, and now you can see that person in your media experience, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And I think it's also, we know that when you're sitting down with extra or they say, like, that's just their job to sit down with people. They're not doing it because they want to.

[Ben Affleck]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, it's like they got told, go talk to that person. Exactly.

[Matt Damon]

And we got told, go talk to them.

[Ben Affleck]

So they go do the ritual.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

And they say the thing they say, and we say the thing we say, and everyone goes home and says, we did our job.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the benefit of an independent podcast, is that like, like, with me, if I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to, it's just like, I, I, I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that sounds cool, and that's it.

[Ben Affleck]

But like, that, I think, means a lot. At least this person's making this choice. And I've listened to it a bunch, and I, I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of the time. So. All right, I'll give it a shot. That, you know, it's exactly, I think.

[Matt Damon]

Also like, this format, like, at least I know why I started listening to podcasts was because in the world, like, the divisive kind, the way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit, and it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings talk often who had different points of view but had a civil conversation was such a welcome thing, given the kind of, the hysterical kind of, you know, frenzy of divisiveness that's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, you know, it's like if I open my phone and look at the news, I was like, fuck. It's like, put it down. It's just, it's like I feel my cortisol level go up and to actually hear people listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just, and just think about it. You know what I mean? I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility, not hold on to what you believe, obviously, but, but, but keep listening.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also, there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people. So people are kind of starving for that.

[Ben Affleck]

I know. Is it funny that this has become the shared cultural like we listen to that podcast and then actually experience that. Because, and also people. Why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth, it's money. Money. Because actually doing that's not with money. It's just ratings. And the perceived idea that like, well, if you simplify it or you, you position it one way or the, you engender outrage, that's simple. Or just, you know, pure one sided ideas that are, that are simple, you know. But the news used to be, the idea was, look, here's the fcc. We're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal. You got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively. Then it started to be, no, you got to make money for that hour too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth or report the news or any of those things. And people try to hybridize them. But at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more and then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data. You know, Graham, what are people watching? What kinds of stories? And I think this is simple answers because you're just, just making it into a profit game. Those incentives are not aligned with just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's a weird time. It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it is just horseshit. Yeah, you know, it's, it's hard to stay balanced.

[Matt Damon]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I think that's why it's good to like listen to the people just talk and, and then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking. You feel ego, you feel deception. Bullshit. It's true.

[Ben Affleck]

People will reveal themselves. We actually don't need that many editorialists to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think. People actually have pretty good instincts. If someone's bullshitting you, eventually they'll kind of hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe. After a while, he kind of started repeating his shtick, and I kind of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about. And you form your own. That's like forming your own.

[Joe Rogan]

Judge Pete Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts. He's like, because you. You go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours. Like, you can only stick to these lines. Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

You get all the talking points. And for then. And then what happens is people just, like, there was an art to, like, look at how great that communicator. They stick to the message and they do their points. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any longer than that, it just starts to look like a robot on. You know, and like, I said what we need to follow through with, you know, like, yes, I saw you do the same hand gesture in the same bit with that. But I'm.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, sometimes you find out they're full of. Just by having them talk about other things, you know, like, tell me, do you like cooking? You know, like, just like. And then you just see, like, some concocted.

[Ben Affleck]

They're thinking, what makes me look good? If about cooking. I'll tell you what. Because what would the American screen say?

[Joe Rogan]

That's exactly it.

[Matt Damon]

Like, do I cook or do I not?

[Ben Affleck]

What would I. Does that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural. It's just like, yeah, what do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. You know?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own. You're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're, like, handcuffed. You're, like, terrified to misspeak.

[Matt Damon]

Right, right.

[Ben Affleck]

I think that in general, is a real danger. I mean, we were talking the other day, we were saying about, like, one of the benefits of getting older and. And doing this for a long time is you realize, like, nobody really gives a as much about you as you. Yeah. You know, you just kind of. Kind of nobody remembers 20s and 30s.

[Matt Damon]

Thinking, like, this is really important. And then you realize, no one am.

[Ben Affleck]

I gonna come off. What's gonna be people.

[Matt Damon]

No one, actually. It's not that big a deal. Nobody.

[Ben Affleck]

Most people are mostly worrying about themselves in their life and.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. There's this illusion that they pay a passing moment attention or it's in some story or something. It's like you're staring at it because it's about you.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ben Affleck]

You know. You know, that kiss said that about me. Nobody else, really.

[Matt Damon]

Nobody cares.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And if they do, they're usually up like something's wrong. Why concentrate on this other person's life? You're probably trying to ignore your own, Right? Yeah. Well, listen, man, your movie's awesome. I've loved so much of you, your films over the years. So it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great.

[Ben Affleck]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Rogan]

Two very normal, nice movie stars. You guys are cool as.

[Ben Affleck]

Give us a couple more hours. Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

I enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed the rip. It's great. And everybody go see it. It's great. I loved it. Thank you. Thanks for being here. All right. Bye, everybody.

[Matt Damon]

Sa.