#2513 - Dean Radin

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2513 – Dean Radin

Date: June 11, 2026
Guests: Joe Rogan (Host), Dean Radin (Chief Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, researcher in parapsychology and consciousness)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe Rogan sits down with Dean Radin, a leading researcher at the intersection of science, consciousness, psychic phenomena, and parapsychology. Their wide-ranging conversation spans Radin's personal journey, the scientific study of telepathy and remote viewing, historical and genetic roots of psychic ability, consciousness and reality, technological and ethical implications for the future, and the mysteries of UFOs and ultra-terrestrials. With fascinating stories, experimental evidence, and musings on society, this episode examines topics that challenge mainstream scientific assumptions about the mind and the nature of reality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dean Radin’s Journey & Background

• Musician to Scientist: Radin shares his transition from violinist to science, prompted by a genetic condition (Gilbert syndrome) that prevented athletic stamina but gave some health benefits (04:00).
• Scientific Path: Electrical engineering → experimental psychology → involvement in multidisciplinary research and parapsychology.
• The Institute of Noetic Sciences: Inspired by astronaut Edgar Mitchell’s mystical experience and founded to explore consciousness (10:22).
• Noetic: Described as "a feeling of intuition… knowing with certainty" (11:19).

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2. Studying Psychic Phenomena – Telepathy, Remote Viewing, and Presentiment

• Historical Roots: Scientific interest in telepathy, apparitions, and precognition is over 150 years old. Early studies—though methodologically flawed—set a precedent (17:33).
• Modern Scientific Evidence: Stringent, controlled experiments now provide robust evidence for telepathy and remote viewing.
  • “The short story is, yeah, we’re now 150 years past that, and we have very, very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.” – Dean Radin (18:23)
• Stargate Program: Radin’s involvement with top-secret government psychic research, working alongside Hal Puthoff, Ed May, Joe McMoneagle, and Ingo Swann (24:57, 26:13).
• Remote Viewing Operations: Discussed operational successes, e.g., locating a downed nuclear bomber in Africa, as revealed by President Carter (62:14).
• Experimental Protocols: Importance of controlled protocols – sensory isolation, randomized targets, meta-analysis across disciplines (33:30).
• Talent and Genetics: Most successful remote viewers combine natural talent (often familial/genetic) and openness to experience, though no unique psychological profile was found (27:33, 55:06).

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3. Presentiment and Real-Life Intuition

• Lab Simulation of “Gut Feelings”: Radin develops experiments measuring physiological responses to future random emotional stimuli, with strong results (42:12).
• Real-Life Example: A story of a bullet removed from a revolver by intuition, which later saved a man’s life—paralleling laboratory findings (45:22).
• Significance: The body and unconscious can “know” events seconds—or even longer—before they occur.

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4. Barriers and Institutional Resistance

• Silos in Academia: Difficulty in getting multidisciplinary cooperation, driven by incentive structures and entrenched worldviews (30:18).
• Skepticism & Dismissal: Many scientists cling to materialist assumptions, dismissing data out-of-hand (19:34).
  • “We're not even going to look at the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument.” – Dean Radin (19:34)
• Government Secrecy: Classification adds layers of psychological and scientific complexity (72:13).

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5. Genetics of Psychic Ability & the Impact of History

• Search for the “Psy-genome”: Collaboration with Gary Nolan to study the DNA of self-reported psychics and control groups (73:40).
  • Finding: Psychics had “wild type” (normal DNA), controls had intron sequence mutations that may block psychic ability.
  • Societal Correlation: Mutation was more prevalent in populations long exposed to Christianity—inquisition-era witch hunts may have “pruned” psychic traits (76:59).
  • “It’s like a eugenics in an opposite direction where they weren’t trying to pull people for talent, but get rid of the talent. And you can see it in the genome.” (76:59)
• Magical Practitioners in Religion: Catholic saints and mystics with reportedly profound psychic powers (78:05).

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6. The Nature of Magic, Intention, and Consciousness

• Magic as Real Phenomena: Radin differentiates stage magic from unexplained phenomena, suggesting “real magic” is under-studied and poorly named (17:33, 81:13).
• Spoon Bending Party: Dean’s personal experience bending the bowl of a spoon “without force,” in a powerful state of intention—and the complex role of motivation (82:19).
• Role of Belief, Motivation, Ego: Success in magical or psychic feats may depend on belief, intense motivation, and the “need” for an outcome (88:48).
• Limits Unexplored: Most current psychic effects in labs are small, but it's unclear what might be truly possible.

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7. Philosophical Frontiers – Reality, Consciousness, and Meaning

• Materialism vs. Nonlocal Consciousness: Evidence points toward a reality where consciousness is nonlocal ("everything, everywhere, all at once"), akin to quantum entanglement (49:57).
• Dual Aspect Monism: Mind and matter are two sides of one fundamental reality (94:51, 96:03).
• Science and Mystery: Even foundational science can’t answer ultimate “why” questions—science’s strength is in predicting and explaining “how” (96:49).

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8. Technology, Enhancement, and Ethics

• Neural Network & Intention Technology: Machine learning can “read intention” from random number generators, hinting at future “non-invasive” mind-machine interfaces (36:05).
• Gene Editing for Cognition: Description of an RNA-based intranasal compound, developed by Radin’s company Cognigenics, that restores memory and reduces anxiety in animals (105:30, 108:06).
  • Potential application for dementia, with far-reaching implications for human enhancement.
  • Ethical Dilemmas: The danger of unchecked psychic ability—telepathy enabling thought insertion/control, requiring “ego training” (118:36).
    • “Because we normally think of being telepathic as receiving other people’s thoughts, but it’s actually a two way street… you could then inject thoughts and control people.” (118:53)
• Societal Transformation: Widespread psychic ability or radical cognitive enhancement would profoundly reshape social, legal, and economic systems (126:48).

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9. Synchronicity & Mystical Experience

• Personal Story: Radin relates a multi-layered synchronicity where a neighboring secret lab—and its occupant—manifested him via focused intention, echoing ancient magical practices (153:53, 158:16).

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10. The UFO/UAP Question and Ultra-Terrestrials

• Military & Psi: Stories of intuitive knowledge among submarine commanders; military openness to psi phenomena (66:23).
• UFOs, Reverse Engineering, and Disinformation: Comparisons between psychic research and UFO secrecy, and possible overlap of agendas (69:26).
• Ultra-Terrestrial Hypothesis: Following Hal Puthoff, Radin favors the idea that anomalous intelligent life may be from Earth’s distant past rather than elsewhere (141:47).
• Mysteries of Ancient Human Evolution: Discussion of skulls found in Peru with abnormal features and their possible connection to vanished or advanced human lineages (144:17).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reality’s Weirdness:
  • “There’s some weirdness in the world, like knowing not to do something and then something happens. There’s weirdness in knowing something’s gonna happen. And you ignore that feeling. And then something terrible happens. You’re like, fuck, I knew I shouldn’t have gone there. There’s weirdness in the world.” – Joe Rogan (13:08)
• On Evidence for Psi:
  • “We have very, very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.” – Dean Radin (18:23)
• Challenge to Skeptics:
  • “We’re not even going to look at the evidence because we know it’s impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument.” – Dean Radin (19:34)
• On the Genetics of Psi and History:
  • “The Inquisition had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who had these abilities and then they killed them… so, yeah, it’s like a eugenics in an opposite direction.” – Dean Radin (76:99)
• Ego & Power:
  • “[Telepathy] would be such a seductive power for most people that unless they had significant training beforehand, you don’t want to do that.” (118:53)
• Synchronicity Story:
  • “He was picturing that I show up. And so I opened the door and that’s why his jaw dropped…” (158:16)
• Philosophy of Science’s Limits:
  • “Science doesn’t answer why. We don’t know why. Why does an electron have a certain charge? We don’t know.” (96:49)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Dean’s Background & Genetic Quirk: 02:40 – 06:24
• Institute of Noetic Sciences & Noetic Defined: 10:22 – 11:46
• Science Fiction & Materialism: 15:13 – 17:33
• Stargate & Government Psi Research: 24:57 – 30:18
• Meta-Analysis & Machine Learning in Psi: 33:18 – 36:05
• Presentiment & Precognition Experiments: 42:12 – 46:05
• Genetics Studies and Sociological Selection Against Psi: 73:40 – 78:05
• Levitating Saints & Limits of Magic: 78:05 – 92:03
• Dual Aspect Monism & Consciousness: 94:51 – 99:17
• Ethics & Dangers of Telepathy: 118:36 – 123:36
• Societal Transformation via Cognitive Enhancement: 126:48 – 128:36
• Ultra-Terrestrials, Ancient Skulls, and Human Mysteries: 141:34 – 147:16
• Final Synchronicity/Manifestation Story: 153:53 – 158:39

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Tone & Takeaways

Both Joe and Dean maintain an open, curious, and skeptical-but-playful tone throughout, moving between scientific rigor, wild speculation, and personal anecdotes. They invite listeners to reconsider the limits of science, the role of consciousness, and what might be possible as new understandings and technologies emerge.

For Listeners:
This episode dives deeply into the evidence and implications of psychic phenomena and consciousness studies, offers rare insight into classified government research, and speculates boldly—but thoughtfully—on how future technologies might reshape who we are. If you’ve ever wondered if “magic” might be real, or how mind and reality might be much stranger and more interconnected than science currently admits, you’ll find this conversation rich, challenging, and exciting.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

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[Dean Radin]

The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day,

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan Podcast by night all day. Thank you.

[Dean Radin]

Good to be here.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm excited to talk to you. Did you maybe manifest this conversation somehow?

[Dean Radin]

Maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

I've seen a bunch of your talks online and the first of all, let's start from the beginning. Like, what is your background?

[Dean Radin]

I thought I'd give you a 45 year arc in about three minutes. Perfect, because then there's a lot of places you can get into it. So I started out as a musician, violin, up until about halfway through college. And then I realized to be a musician means you have to be an athlete because you're making your living with your body. No one told me that up through until I finally decided. I don't think I want to make my living with my body because I've never been very strong. And more importantly, you also need to have a lot of stamina. And I didn't have that.

[Joe Rogan]

And you weren't interested in gaining it.

[Dean Radin]

I couldn't. I have a genetic mutation that created, like most people when they exercise, you feel really good afterwards. I feel really exhausted. And I never understood why until many years later I realized that I have something called Gilbert syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver enzyme. And you have no recovery time.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Is there anything they can do for

[Dean Radin]

that other than something like genetic engineering, which I've never heard anybody try yet? The answer is no.

[Joe Rogan]

I've never heard of that condition before. I don't think.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, there's some missing enzymes. And more importantly, the bilirubin, which is unconjugated bilirubin. You have way too much of it. So there's an upside and a downside. The downside is that you can't recover from exercise quickly and so there's a lot of fatigue that happens. The upside is that unconjugated bilirubin is an antioxidant. It's one of the most natural antioxidant. So my cardiovascular system is like a 20 year old.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, so you got your pros and your cons with this?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you ever tried exercising in very small doses, like throughout the day?

[Dean Radin]

Well, I walk every day, so that's my primary exercise.

[Joe Rogan]

That's always great exercise.

[Dean Radin]

If I walk too fast, too hard, I will feel it for the next three or four days. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

So too fast, too hard, too long. So what if you do like two push ups and then just do two push ups like four hours later and then two pushups like four hours later?

[Dean Radin]

I can do that. Yeah. I can do seven push ups.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Maybe that's the move. Maybe the move is just make yourself do things very lightly throughout the day just to keep your bone mass and all that good stuff that we lose when we get older.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, but it sounds like there's a pro. The cardiovascular benefit is pretty sweet.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So when you get to a certain age or your doctor says, let's take a cardiac calcium scan to see what your arteries doing. And the range is from zero. So they don't see anything in there up to 100, where you're basically about to die. So my doctor did said just do that because your cholesterol is, like, off. It's way too high. And I have zero.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Dean Radin]

And say, well, how could you have zero? Because I'm 74. I should not be zero. But I do. And it's because of this.

[Joe Rogan]

You look really good for 74.

[Dean Radin]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

You do. You look like maybe 15, 20 years younger than you're supposed to look.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So that's the other advantage of this particular mutation is longevity.

[Joe Rogan]

Damn, son. Well, that's good. There's a positive to it. So, violinists, can I ask you this totally unrelated. What is the difference between violin and a fiddle?

[Dean Radin]

Well, a violin is career track towards concert violinist. So it's classical music.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's how you play it.

[Dean Radin]

It's partially how you play it, but it's mostly about the nature of the music that you're playing.

[Joe Rogan]

So is it just how it's referred in different cultures? Like in Southern music, it would be a fiddle.

[Dean Radin]

It's also style. It's style and it's also the intonation. Like, if you did like I did. I transitioned from classical violin when I knew I wasn't going to do that as a career into bluegrass, fiddle, and banjo. So actually ended up playing 25 years, the last five years being bluegrass. And so there I actually had to learn not to play that well. Like you have to you. It sounds better for bluegrass if you're a little bit off tune and you're not. You're not holding it right. And it's authentic. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Scratchy something to it.

[Dean Radin]

So, in fact, in graduate school, I was in the competition for the Illinois State Fiddler Contest. And so I was probably 25 or something at the time, and Alison Kraus was like a teenager, and she was in the same competition, and I lost miserably. And she was incredible even at that time.

[Joe Rogan]

Who is she?

[Dean Radin]

Alison Krause?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know who she is. Sorry.

[Dean Radin]

She is a.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you know who she is, Jamie? Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. She's very, very well known. Somewhere between country singer, but she plays the violin and the fiddle and is a fantastic voice.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm out of the loop. I'm sorry.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. If you heard. If you heard one of her songs, I'm sure you would know it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. If you made me name a fiddler, I would say, well, the Devil Went down to Georgia was the first time, like, America really understood, like, popular culture, like the fiddle got introduced. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, like that. For a lot of people, that song, that Charlie Daniels Jr. Song.

[Dean Radin]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

That's. That's the fiddle.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, that's like.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that good?

[Dean Radin]

Well, yeah, it was pretty good. It's a little bit like fiddle on steroids, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but I mean, like, as a fiddler, do you hear that? Or is it, like, only for the unwashed masses that think that's good?

[Dean Radin]

It's good fiddling. Yeah. Yeah, it's fiddling around.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry for the sidetrack.

[Dean Radin]

Okay. So I did that for 20 years or so. And then in the middle of college, I decided, I think I want to get a job where I could use my mind instead of my body. So I switched into electrical engineering. Why? Because I like to take stuff apart. And I used to make things in high school. So then I didn't know what I wanted to do after I got my degree. So I went on to get a master's in electrical engineering. And then I didn't want to be an electrical engineer anymore. So I got a PhD in experimental psychology. And so it sounds like flipping back and forth between lots of different things, and it kind of is. But you'll see that my career is a little bit like a game show in that you're presented with, this is what you could do, like, forever, or you can choose door number two. And I almost always chose door number two because I would do this for a while and say, I sort of understand that now. I want to do something different. Door number two. So as a senior in college, I learned about this place called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was started by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on the moon. And on the way back to the Earth, he had a mystical experience. And so today, a lot of people who go into space talk about the overview effect. And he was one of the first to talk about it openly, even though all of the other astronauts had. Expresses itself in different ways. So people generally will turn from whatever they were. It's a transformative experience, and they become different. And so in his way of expressing that after the mystical experience and thinking, what in the world is that? Because he felt one with the universe, literally, he decided to create this institute that would study what he had been studying for outer space, but for inner space, to explore inner space. So I remember in college reading about this new institute, and their motto was Exploring the frontiers of consciousness. And I thought, that sounds like something I want to do, but there Wasn't any place to do that other than this one institute. So I always had in the back of my mind that that's where I want to end up. What is that term?

[Joe Rogan]

Noetic. I know I've heard it before, but I never looked it up.

[Dean Radin]

Noetic. So noetic is a feeling of intuition, except that it carries a sense of certainty that the intuition is correct. So intuition is knowing something without knowing how you know, it just sort of arrives, but it's knowing with certainty. And more often than not, the certainty is correct. So people talk about downloads and meditation and other places. That's what that is.

[Joe Rogan]

This is a subject that up until I would say last couple decades was pretty openly dismissed by rational people, right? There's. There's almost like a desire to dismiss it, like a desire to define the world in much clearer terms where it's maybe ego driven, you're in control of your own destiny, and then there's certain factors that are out of your control. And just this is how it is and this is life. Deal with it. And all this mystical woo woo magic that people have been talking about for some strange reason for thousands of years, we just dismiss and we dismiss it under the narrative of science. We're talking about science. We're science people. We want data. But there is data. That's what's weird. And if you're willing to look a little preposterous, which I certainly am, I think it's a good thing to do every now and then, take a fucking chance and try to figure out if the world is exactly constructed the way you've been told. Because it might not be. There might be some weirdness to it all. And it seems like we all agree, we all agree there is some weirdness. You could chalk it off to coincidence. When you think about a person and you haven't thought about them forever and all of a sudden they call you. There's some weirdness in the world. There's some weirdness in the world, like knowing not to do something and then something happens. There's some weirdness in knowing something's gonna happen. And you ignore that feeling. And then something terrible happens. You're like, fuck, I knew I shouldn't have gone there. There's weirdness in the world and it's not necessarily just pattern recognition and understanding scenarios because you've experienced them before. There's something to that too. That's part of it too, but there's also something else. There's some weird connection that people have. There's a thing that when you know someone's mad at you and they don't say anything like, what is this fucking weird energy I'm getting off this guy? There's some stuff we're. We're experiencing in the world that you can't put on a scale. You can't put a tape measure to it. You can't measure its density, but it's there. There's something. And we have a very limited amount of senses in terms of our ability to see, feel, touch, smell. It's not enough. There's probably some other stuff out there we don't have the tools to measure, but it impacts us.

[Dean Radin]

But we do have the tools to measure. So that's what attracted me to the rest of my career because. Exactly. For the same reason you just said that people have experiences, oftentimes they feel pretty strange, and so they start looking for, well, what is that? So if you go to a conventional science spokesperson, they will echo back exactly what you're saying. It's coincidence. It's frailty of memory, all of that stuff. But I learned early on, even in college, that there is a branch of science that has studied these things. I mean, it's been going on since the late 1800s that the scientists have been interested in these kinds of phenomena. And science is really, really good at taking even strange, subjective experiences and figuring out, is that a coincidence? Or is that. What is that? Is it real? That attracted me so. And it partially came out of reading a lot of science fiction. So your science fiction is saturated with these kinds of stories where the element of the story is revolving around some kind of psychic.

[Joe Rogan]

The force.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, classically the force in Dune, the series, Frank Herbert's Dune series. The whole thing about spice. Why did they have to take spice? Because that's the only way you can navigate when you're jumping through wormholes. Like you needed to know what you're about to expect on the other side. It just saturates novels and science fiction. It's there. And generally, if you have a topic that people are paying attention to like that and are very popular, it's because something is resonating. Like if it was so strange that nobody even had a way of thinking about, wouldn't be popular. But it is, and it's perennially popular. So I took the science fiction interest and as even a younger kid, about fairy tales, which is saturated with these things too, and I thought, well, I wonder if that's real. But then you kind of get shuttled into a scientific career. And one thing that happens for fledgling Engineers and scientists and for a lot of other academics, is that you're being taught a set of assumptions about the way that the world works, called materialism or physicalism. And the thing is, you're not taught that that is a set of assumptions. You take it for granted after a while because after you go through college for 20 plus years, and no one ever mentions that we're working under a set of assumptions, a materialism, and no one ever talks about the philosophy of science, which is all about studying the assumptions and are they correct. Once you do start studying the philosophy of science, you find out that there's lots of different ways of understanding reality. And so there's the whole materialistic side, which is really, really good at explaining aspects of the physical world. It gives us these kinds of technologies, but it doesn't explain subjective experience at all. And so that's like the existing number one mystery in science today, because you have to challenge the idea that materialism is all there is. And so people have weird experiences. They're talking about a more comprehensive way of understanding reality. That's what's going on. And so that's why I end up writing a book like this. So the magic here is not stage magic, it's the real magic, which we don't have a name for yet.

[Joe Rogan]

When they first started studying this in the 1800s, what were they specifically trying to isolate or figure out?

[Dean Radin]

Well, just like today, people would see apparitions. They would have the sense that there were telepathic connections between people. They'd have precognitions. And there was the beginning of figuring out ways of using experimental science to be able to study these things under controlled conditions. And the word control is important because it means you exclude coincidence by the design and you exclude leakage of information. You exclude all kinds of things. So the only thing left over is if that telepathic thing was real, then we'd be able to see it in the lab. And the short story is, yeah, we're now 150 years past that, and we have very, very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.

[Joe Rogan]

So what was the first evidence that they, they were able to get out of these initial experiments?

[Dean Radin]

They used to call it thought transference. And so the methods they were using then would not pass muster today. They would have, like, two kids who say, we can do telepathic transfer between us. And then many times they would find that the kids were using some kind of signal. And so that wouldn't work today. Today, people have to be strictly isolated. Neither can know what the target is that they're trying to transfer to the other person. And we do lots and lots of replications with lots of people. And so that then forms a body of evidence where it becomes extremely difficult to think of what the flaw might be. And in fact, if you ask skeptics about it who know the literature, their usual response now is either there's no plausible flaw that they can identify because a lot of time has been spent to figure out what might be a flaw. And the second response, which is more recent now, is we're not even going to look at the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument. But that's. That's the approach. We're not going to look at the data.

[Joe Rogan]

That's silly. Yeah, well, it's really silly when you consider the intelligence agencies have spent an enormous amount of money and a considerable amount of time studying remote viewing. Like, why. Why would they invest that much time in nonsense? Why would they invest that much time in something where there's no evidence whatsoever and they've never achieved positive results? That doesn't seem to be correct. If you just. If you listen to the stories of the guy like Hal Puthoff and all these different people that have been involved in these remote viewing experiments, they had actionable data that they derived specifically from remote viewing. I don't understand it. I can't. I've never done it. I've never attempted it. I don't know if I can do it. I did it once. We had an experiment on a television show that I did where we had this guy who claimed to be a remote viewer remote view this area. And it was. He was off, but it was also under duress with cameras. Like, is that the state of mind that you want to be in when you're trying to remote view? No, that's not ideal at all. And that is a factor, a major factor. And whether or not you can understand intuition is where. What is your state of mind? Are you in a place of complete anxiety and fear, or are you totally relaxed and focused on what you're doing? Is there any distractions? Is there a jackhammer nearby? Is there a dog barking? Is there something that could interrupt this state of mind that you're trying to achieve? Because there's different states of mind. We know this. We can measure this. We can measure the brain waves. We understand that the state of mind, it's not a static thing like a toaster, you know, it's not on or off. There's a bunch of different shit going on in your brain, in your mind at any given time. So the idea that remote viewing, which is some very bizarre connection that some people have to reality, that's nowhere near local. They can describe things in detail, talk about submarines that are being constructed in the Soviet Union, like it's. There's weird shit to that. And if you dis, if you just dismiss that, you're being a fool. There's something there. And the only way anybody figures out there's something there is if you study it. If actually intelligent people are willing to look a little foolish and spend some time studying it. This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch [e-mail] plans start at just $25 a month. Or get. Get our premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code Rogan. An exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

[Dean Radin]

Right, so that brings us to my next job. So after I got my. My doctorate, I started working at Bell Laboratories. So it was the biggest laboratory in the world at the time, is still the Bell System. And because I was interested in these kinds of things for some of my time at Bell Labs, I started doing little psychic experiments involving mind matter interaction and also involving precognition. So there's an ongoing link here that goes back to the Institute of Noetic Sciences. In a strange way, Edgar Mitchell gave the first money to SRI International, which is where Hal Puthoff and Russ Targ was to do remote viewing studies. He also brought Uri Geller to the United States and he brought SRI and a bunch of other places, including Bell Labs. So when I was working at the labs, I knew that there had been people who had seen some of the stuff that Geller did. And I was doing these little psychic things. So I asked for permission to be able to present some of the work I was doing at an annual conference of the Parapsychological association, which is an affiliate of the largest scientific organization in the United States, the American association for the Advancement of Science. So many people don't know that the Parapsychological association is one of the 200 some affiliates of the AAAS. It's a legitimate scientific organization. So I did this precognition test. I asked for permission and I got permission not only to give my presentation at the conference, but to use the Bell Labs imprimatur. So I was giving this as some guy from Bell Labs talking to this audience. Unbeknownst to me, there were a few people in the audience who came up afterwards and one of them said, if there was an opening, would you be interested in joining the Stargate program? Whoa. And so that was an offer I couldn't refuse. That's one of these cases of you have this door or you have that door. Well, that door looked really interesting because it was known at the time that there were people at SRI doing this sort of thing. But the classified portions were a rumor. Like nobody knew what was really going on.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

So I took a leave of absence.

[Joe Rogan]

That must have been exciting.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You get that offer? Stargate?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. Are you kidding?

[Joe Rogan]

Holy shit.

[Dean Radin]

So I took a leave of absence for one year from Bell Labs. And so I went to Sori International. Hal Puthoff was my boss, and then Ed May. When hal left in 1985, Ed May took over. He may not be a name that is known as well, but he was the director for 10 years. And so I worked on that project. And it took a long time to get clearances because first of all, I didn't know anything about classification or anything, but I figured, well, maybe it's just secret. No, it's just top secret. No, it's top secret sci. No, it's top secret sei. Special Access Program. Which means there's literally a book that you have to sign and you can see all the other people who have signed that book. Special access means even if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know about this place. You cannot know about the code word. You can't. The code word was classified. So, I mean, which seems kind of odd because if you have a code word, it's not saying anything, but nevertheless, that's how it worked.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

So we were the research side of people who talk about Stargate. Mostly they're talking about the military side, the operational side. Well, we knew what they were doing, but our mission was different. Our mission was figure out those questions that you're asking. How does this stuff work? Like, is it real? Yes. Some people are very talented. What are the limits of it? Can you block it? Can you shield it? Can you do camouflage? And one of the main areas was what's the difference between someone like Joe McMonagle, who's a superstar in this area. Why is he any different than anybody else? Because, like, when I first met the Ingo Swann and Joe and a bunch of other people, they were so different than my stereotype of Madame Zodiac that they, like I say, you gotta be kidding. These people are remote viewers. They're just like guys and gals. And so every method was used to try to figure out, is it psychological difference, is it physiological, is it medical, what is it? And the answer was we couldn't find anything. There may be some background about the people themselves, but in terms of finding out something that we could use to select, because the army and others were interested in getting lots of other people who would be talented too.

[Joe Rogan]

So there was no consistent factors?

[Dean Radin]

No, there wasn't anything.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow, that seems crazy.

[Dean Radin]

Except maybe talent. Two things, talent and openness. So talent is natural talent. It partially based on genetics. And openness is a psychological trait where you're simply open to experience. So people who tend to be to have like a certain way of thinking about things and are not open to other stuff, they block it. They block it real good. People who are open to experience and willing to try new things, they in general tend to do better. So that brings us to talent, which I'll get to a little bit later, especially about the genetics of talent. So we didn't have the genetic tools at the time. Now we do have the genetic tools. And so we've done a couple of studies looking for what we call the psy gene. So we think we're onto something. Okay, so I work on Stargate for a year, go back to Bell Labs, and almost immediately get another invitation. It's one of these doors open again. How would you like to go to Princeton? Because at Princeton at the time was the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory. It was a lab doing psi research that was headed by the dean of the School of Engineering. And so that lab went almost for 30 years doing mind matter interaction, doing remote viewing and a bunch of other stuff at Princeton. So my position was in the psych department because that's where I had my PhD. But to lead a program among many departments, one of which was the Paralab. And the idea was, in order to have any chance of beginning to understand this stuff, you need to pull in every discipline because it's way too big, it's too complicated for a single discipline. So we had the philosophy department and the psychology department and civil Engineering and the PEAR lab and a bunch of other departments. My job was to Sort of corral it together to create multidisciplinary research projects. And I was told on day one, that's impossible. This is a job you cannot do. Well, why? I mean, we had the money for it. And the answer is that in the academic world you succeed within silos. You know an enormous amount about a very particular kind of topic. Like even in the psych department there you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social psychologists, and on and on and on. They don't even talk to each other because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo. My job was to sort of mash it together. And it was ridiculously complicated.

[Joe Rogan]

Was there resistance?

[Dean Radin]

Oh my God. Resistance is not quite strong enough. It's like each one of the departments was getting money from this big grant that we had. So they were willing to play the game, but when it actually came down to doing some kind of a cross filtering, no.

[Joe Rogan]

Why didn't they want to collaborate?

[Dean Radin]

Because everything of value in the academic world is in your silo. So if you're trying to work across silos, again, even within the same department, social psychology and perceptual psychology might not even talk to each other and their offices are right next to each other. But that's simply the way.

[Joe Rogan]

It's insane.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. But it also. It sort of makes sense when you think about it, to become an Expert. Something takes 20 years from the university and then the rest of your academic career just to keep up with it. So it kind of makes sense that you don't want to start turning your attention off to something else because you're not in that department anymore. So it's a problem and it's always been there. It's not getting any better either.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it seems like there should be a way to fix that. The ultimate goal should be whatever we're all working on collectively should benefit mankind. And if you're in the psychology industry, which you are, if you're teaching psychology, if you're working on psychology, you should want to get involved in this. The fact that they're all siloed off like that seems insane.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So the approach that's sometimes taken in the academic world is to create a center, center for the study of fill in the blank. That brings in people from different disciplines and then they're kind of forced together.

[Joe Rogan]

But these people from different disciplines probably are already working on important stuff to them, and this is taking away from their time.

[Dean Radin]

It could be, except that depending on the nature of the work, it may be something that requires another Discipline. So you might have somebody in computer science who's working on that, and then you have somebody in psychology who's interested in the human side. Like, how do you connect the computer and the people? Well, there's a sub discipline called human factors. That's where I was working in Bell Labs, because I had engineering and psychology. So you kind of mash those two together and then you could actually learn some new stuff that's of value to both. And also that's how you create new disciplines. That's how the discipline of neuroscience began. So you go back now it's more like 60 to 70 years ago. Somebody noticed that you have all these people in biology and all these people looking at cells and people looking at things having to do with the nervous system. They were all different disciplines. So a large foundation came along and said, I think we need to create a discipline of the neurosciences. And they threw enough money at it to bring people together, and that formed a new discipline. So I work in the area of consciousness studies, which is only now starting to become its own discipline, because before that it was maybe a few philosophers interested in it and anesthesiologists, and that's it. But it's changing.

[Joe Rogan]

So when you were at Princeton, what. What specifically did. How did you start it? Like, what specifically were you working on initially?

[Dean Radin]

Well, besides trying to get people to talk to each other, which was frustrating.

[Joe Rogan]

Big task.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So one of the things I did was meta analysis. So this is a way of taking results of individual experiments that are similar to each other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together with a statistical method to see whether independent people are able to replicate the same thing. It's called meta analysis. Meta meaning it's like an analysis of analyses. And so it answers two questions. One is, if this is really real in a scientific sense, then other independent people ought to be able to do the same experiment and get the same result. So that's one part. The other part is if you do have a lot of people doing the same experiment, then what is the overall result? It's like one gigantic experiment now. So I did a number of meta analyses, ended up writing a book on it that nobody wanted to buy. So it just sat there. And then I was doing experiments on precognition as part of my job, and because of my engineering background, I was using the latest version of machine learning at the time, which was neural networks, and applying it to the data from the Paralab to see if, when you do an experiment involving mind matter interaction, usually Use a random number generator. And you ask somebody, this thing is. You tell them this is going to push out a whole bunch of bits, random bits. And I want you to make more 1 bits than 0 bits. That's your task. So they press a button and they get some kind of result, and now make more zero bits and now don't do anything. So this is three different kinds of tasks in one session. And so what they were finding was that, in general, if you run a lot of people in this kind of task, yes. Their intention makes the bits go in the direction that you want. So you aim high, goes up, aimed low, it goes down, so on. So the question then is, not everybody can do that. Some people get the opposite result. Some people get really good at making it go high, but they can't make it go low. So the idea came about that there's something like a signature that was from each person. People had a way of interacting with the machine that made it do certain things that was unique to them. But overall, it worked out. So I started using neural networks to see if I could train a neural network to tell who was doing the task based on how the random bits were working. And it turns out you can. So when I left Princeton, because it was getting way too frustrating, I took that idea.

[Joe Rogan]

Just trying to get people to work

[Dean Radin]

together, trying to do this. Multidisciplinary teams. Yeah. And as I told you the first day I was there for the job, I was told, by the way, you have an impossible job. It's necessary, though, because this was part of the grant. What you're doing is part of the grant, so you have to do it anyway. And I did it for three years, and then I decided I don't want to do that anymore. But. So I went back to industry. But I specifically told the people I was interviewing with, I want to pursue this like, this is the beginning of a technology that will have a machine identify who you are and your intention. Kind of like neuralink, except there's no connection. There's nothing going in the brain. It's purely intention. So I did end up working for a company outside of Washington, D.C. where part of my work was doing exactly that. We're using more advanced neural networks with random number generators and got to the point where we're about to set a patent for this device because it worked. And the head of the organization at the time was a retired general who had a buddy who was an admiral, and he said, the Navy's interested in this kind of. For obvious reasons. They want ways of communicating with submarines. So at that point, we're like, right on the edge of doing that, and we get bought by another company. And the new company said, you're not going to work on that anymore. So the wheels internally started. It was like golden handcuffs. A lot of money. I mean, it's a very good position, but I didn't really want to do that anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

Did they have a. Was it a profitable issue?

[Dean Radin]

The vice president in charge of the lab did not believe that it was possible.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, God.

[Dean Radin]

They also didn't look at the data, of course. So he said, no, we're not going to do that.

[Joe Rogan]

He doesn't want to be silly.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's so frustrating. You have. It worked. We have a thing here. It's working. No, he just. He didn't want to do it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's so frustrating.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So a few years goes by. I kept doing all this stuff on the side now outside of work, because it was just too interesting to drop. There was a recession. This was 1992. There was a recession. Part of my department was laid off, including myself. So unbeknownst to most people at the time, that the Stargate program. And by the way, it wasn't called Stargate then. There's a lot of code words involved, but it's just known as Stargate. So I'll use that. That program was giving classified contracts to other people around the world, including at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. So we had a colleague at the University of Edinburgh who was creating an automated Gansfeld testing system. This is a telepathy system where you press a button and the people are involved and everything is automated. It's kind of getting the human out of the loop, except for the two people in the experiment. Well, the man who was developing that unfortunately died. And so this was an unfinished project. So I went to Ed May, who was director of CART Stargate at the time, and it said, well, can I go there and finish the project? Yeah, sure. Okay. So I went to the University of Edinburgh for about a year and I worked on this project to finish the automated telepathy system. And they've run many, many, many people through that system by now. And so while I was there, I finished that pretty quickly. I started to develop the Presentiment experiment. And you had Julia Musbridge on the show recently. So she was. I think she was talking about this experiment where you can see if somebody's body is reacting to something in the future that is unanticipated. That's Random. Well, I was developing that at the time. This would have been around 93 or so. And like. And so let me tell you a story about the kind of effect that gave me the idea to do this experiment. So the usual way that people talk about it is that you drive to work the same way every day, thousands of times. And you have a traffic light that you're coming up to, and it's green, and normally you'd start accelerating towards it because you want to get through the light. Something tells you today there's something wrong. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to slow down. And you keep slowing down. The cars behind you are beeping. They say, what's going on? You get almost up to the intersection, and a truck blasts through their red light. And you would have been hit broadside if you didn't slow down. So you have this momentary shock of relief, realizing that you just saved your life by paying attention to that little voice inside your head. So I thought, okay, let's simulate that in the laboratory. Well, we can't put people in danger, but we can do emotional tests like that. So you wire somebody up looking at skin conductance or pupil dilation or brain waves, all kinds of things in your nervous system, and then you just record that continually. Tell them, press a button, and then they're going to see something on a screen. So it could be a very calm picture or it could be a very emotional picture. So emotion can split in two ways. It could be a very negative picture, like picture of surgery or an explosion or something, or it could be a positive, like a smiling baby. So there are two different valences, they're called, and you don't know which is going to come up because a true random number generator is the thing that decides after you press the button, then it decides what it's going to show you. So nobody knows in advance, including the experimenter. So I set up an experiment to do that, and by this time I already had left Edinburgh. I had to make a decision. Then again, do you want to go back into industry? And I had an offer from Oak Ridge National Labs, which would have put me back in the classified world or this other opportunity, which was to work at University of Nevada, funded by Robert Bigelow, who's probably best known for the osap.

[Joe Rogan]

He's been on here before.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So Bigelow has very generously said, yeah, I'll. I'll pay for your way to go into the university there. And I was able to run my own Lab. So one of the very first things I set up then was first of all, I want to continue working on this neural network or machine learning method for making a technology of intention. That was one of the things. But the other one was this presentiment experiment. So I ran that experiment and it was unbelievably good. Like it's, it's normally have little statistical effects. This is like in your face. Holy smoke. This is a big thing. Big, big presentiment effects. Like if skin conductance 1 1/2 seconds before you, well, you press a button, you wait five seconds, then it selects a picture. So one and a half seconds before the picture is selected, if it's emotional, you start to become emotional. If it's calm, you remain calm. So that difference beforehand we call the presentiment effect. It's your body somehow or unconscious, knowing what you're about to see. Just like approaching a light and slowing down, something is telling you something. So we did an experiment and I told this to one of the guys at the center I was working at and he told me a story which is far more interesting than not going through a red light. So the story is this. So he used to go hunting with his buddies and they had a whole bunch of guns. His favorite gun was a six shot revolver, a double action revolver. And so the way that he, he would take all the bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing out. And he put in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 bullets and leave the hammer over the empty chamber so it wouldn't get jostled accidentally. So he's cleaning the gun, he's putting in bullet 1, 2, 3, 4. He picks up the fifth bullet and he has that feeling, something about this bullet isn't right. So he didn't put it in, left it aside, put the hammer over cylinder six and then they went hunting. So it is now two weeks in advance, they come back from hunting. His pistol wasn't used and a bunch of other guns weren't used. But they do what you should not do after you go hunting, which is starting to drink. So they all getting a little bit too tipsy and drinking too much. And a fight breaks out between two people there. One of them picks up my friend's gun, points it point blank at somebody else, like right in their face. And my friend is now looking with horror because the trigger's getting pulled, the hammer's going back, the cylinder is turning and he's trying to intervene. Now he steps right in front of the gun and it goes click. The hammer hit it hit that fifth chamber because it rotated from six to five. Whoa. So he realized with horror at that moment that if he had not taken out that bullet, he would be shot in the head. And so afterwards he said, everyone has a bullet with their name on it, and mine is in a safety deposit box and I know exactly where it is and it's not coming out.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

So that's a real life version of this, which is two weeks in advance in the laboratory. We can only look seconds in advance.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, you should have the intuition and not go hunting and drinking with psychos that are willing to shoot somebody in the face over an argument.

[Dean Radin]

Nevertheless. Yeah, so what happens? Yeah, so that's crazy, though. So that, see, this is where we want to go in these kinds of experiments. You need, like, real life stuff that you can actually test in a controlled way in the laboratory. But there's all kinds of ethical reasons obviously why you can't do that. But I'm pretty sure that if we're able to get something at that level in the laboratory, we would have much, much stronger results than we currently do.

[Joe Rogan]

Now, when it comes to things like remote viewing and being able to be open and being able to actually pull it off and actually remote view things that you can prove, what is the state of mind these people are trying to achieve and what is the protocol for achieving that state of mind?

[Dean Radin]

It depends on whether you're naturally talented or not. So Joe McMonicle and a few others that I know, if you were to ask them at, at breakfast, could you remote view what I have, and I have a hidden folder over here, they will continue eating and tell you the answer immediately. So for them, it doesn't take much at all. And in fact, what Joe would say, and I have some pictures from what Joe had done. Joe would say that if he knows in the afternoon he's going to do a remote viewing, he'll get all the information in the morning, like instantly, it'll just be there. And then he has to wait until the whole thing plays out. But it's like, bang, you got it. So it's a matter internally of simply knowing I need to get this information. And it happens immediately. For people who don't have that natural talent, you go through training where. And by the way, almost everybody can do this. But it does require some training now. So for an average person, the training typically is to not name an impression, which is really tough. So you have a target which may be somewhere in the world, maybe a person somewhere, maybe in an envelope, something like that you're taught you will have something come to mind. You know that that's the target. You have no idea what it is, but you know that there is a target you're going to have to describe. So name the first thing that comes to mind, but not without naming it. So you start little scribbles and then you have more complicated scribbles and you start adding feelings and senses that are associated with these scribbles. Eventually you get to the point where it's kind of all gels together and then you get a coherent image. The problem is that if you tell somebody I'm going to show you a picture in 20 minutes, that you don't know what it is and you say, okay, well just imagine what you're going to get and you get a flash of yellow, you're instantly going to start thinking of bananas. And once that happens, you can't not stop thinking think of bananas anymore. So that's what I mean by not naming. So that's one of the very first things that you learn is anything that comes to mind that you have a name to is probably not. Takes practice, but you can get there.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. What was the most impressive thing that you ever saw anybody achieve with remote viewing?

[Dean Radin]

After I got the clearances, Hal gave me the briefing that everyone gets, like in skiffs, in Congress and presidents, whatever, I got the same briefing. So one picture after the other of experiments by Joe and by a bunch of other people who are not as well known, they basically give almost a veridical drawing of the target. And these are targets that are elsewhere in the world. These are targets that are in envelopes, these are targets that are in skiffs. All different kinds of targets where nothing about the target is known. Like I will tell you a five digit number which stands for the target. And so all you have is a five digit number. Now give me a description of what I'm going to show you in two hours. And they do it.

[Joe Rogan]

So you're putting the number to the target. You're just saying like Moscow, is number

[Dean Radin]

654 a random number? Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And just by you attributing that number to whatever this target is, there's a connection made. What's happening? How's that?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, so what's that? Yeah, we don't know why that is. There are theories about it. And the theory requires probably stepping away from materialism as the only model of reality. So there are other models which allow for consciousness, whatever that is, because we don't know that either. But consciousness Seems to have a non local quality. So it's the same kind of nonlocality that you talk about in quantum mechanics. So quantum mechanics has entanglement, which are non local connections between things. It is also through time, so connections through space and time. So we know that that's a real thing. That's what the physical world allows. It is as though consciousness, whatever that is, also has that property. It is non local. So if you push it hard enough, you end up with something like that movie, Everything, everywhere, all at the same time. That's basically what we're talking about. There's an aspect of reality which we don't ordinarily see, but nevertheless connects everything throughout space and time. And so if that were not true, then things like precognition wouldn't work so well. Telepathy wouldn't work, remote viewing wouldn't work. None of that would work. But nevertheless it does work. So that is like a more comprehensive way of understanding what reality is like.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think this is an emerging quality in human beings, or do you think this is an atrophied quality that we used to all have before the development of written language, books, media, all these different things that sort of take away this quiet communication that people probably had with each other? We believe wolves have that with each other. Wolves coordinate somehow they coordinate attacks on animals. And it could be through learned experience. But how did they. How do they remember it and know what to do? And how do each one have specific roles? Like one wolf will chase the elk into like a certain corridor, and the other wolves will wait and be on like higher ground and come down and attack. They know that they do weird stuff. That somehow or another requires some kind of communication.

[Dean Radin]

Yes. And they're way more intelligent than we have usually thought.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, think about how intelligent some dogs are.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, like a Belgian Malinois or something like that. One of those dogs they use for military training. Those. Those dogs are incredibly intelligent.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they need exercise, they need activities, they need things to stimulate them because their brain is like firing all day long. Wolf is that times 100?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And so most animals, plants, insects, maybe have consciousness in some form. And if that consciousness is similar to ours, it is non local.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think it's an emerging thing or do you think it's a thing that we've always had?

[Dean Radin]

I think that we are shaped as humans by evolution to not pay attention to the there and then. Because if we were paying attention to there and then a lot of then you may not notice that there's a tiger in front of you who's about to eat you. So if you, like, look over the long span of development of whatever it is we are, people who are walking around thinking about Pluto a million years ago would have been pruned out of existence. So only certain kinds of people historically were able to do that. We call them shaman. And the shaman, as part of a tribe, were extremely important because they knew the food would be 10 miles away that way next week. But the shaman typically could not take care of themselves very well. Their minds were off in Pluto, and so the tribe took care of them. And so today, we don't have that very much. We're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same kinds of needs that they would have had 10, 20,000 years ago, except in some indigenous societies. So one time I gave a talk for the Australian government. There was a whole bunch of ministers there and people in the military, and I was talking about this sort of stuff. And unbeknownst to me, one of the ministers was representative of the indigenous people there. So I finished this long talk on telepathy, and she came up afterwards and said, well, we've known this stuff for thousands of years. They would use it, like in the outback. There was no phones, but somehow they were in communications part of the culture. So they didn't have the distractions, and they had a need. So you can imagine a more or less isolated culture for a long period of time that didn't have tigers immediately always trying to capture them. They had the need to be able to communicate. That way, we don't have the need anymore. So it atrophies. Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. So it atrophies. And so with things like remote viewing, do you think this is almost like a relearning of a skill that people had at one point in time?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And there's still some people who have some of the genetics, because all of this is basically is devolving back into talent. Some people have that talent.

[Joe Rogan]

And you think that's a genetic thing?

[Dean Radin]

I think a good chunk of it is genetic, yes.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's from people in their ancient past that had that quality, had that ability, and they've passed on that trait.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Dean Radin]

in Joe McMonicle's case, he was one of those guys that did search and rescue behind enemy lines. And he always came back. His team always found their guy, and they always came back alive. And so. Well, where did that come from? Well, he used his intuition in the field to decide, let's not go down that road, let's go over here. And he was safe. So afterwards, when asked, when there was recruiting for people who had some abilities like this, they would ask people like that, do you find, like, when you're in combat, you never get hit? Okay, let's talk. The other thing, of course, is did you ever have any experiences beforehand that suggests that maybe you had these experiences? Well, Joe did, and his sister did, too. So there suggests, again, some kind of a familial genetic underpinning for why people have these experiences. So I will continue the story because I'm going to intersect with this genetic part in a minute. So I'm at UNLV doing all kinds of interesting stuff. Somehow the New York Times learns about what I'm doing, and they think it's an interesting character story for a parapsychologist working in Las Vegas. Because Las Vegas is sometimes called the largest parapsychology lab in the world. You have a whole bunch of people trying to mentally influence more or less random systems like they are all the time. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, that's an interesting way to look at Vegas.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, well, it kind of is, right? You toss the dice. You want a certain result. Well, we do that in the laboratory, except we don't have a lot of money associated with it. I was able to actually get data from one of the casinos, smaller casinos, because the general manager was interested in what I was doing. So I said, well, could I get all the data, as much as you have on jackpots for slot machines and also the table games? And a miracle occurred. And she said, yeah. So she gave us the data, was able to analyze it, and among other things, found that jackpots happen more often and payouts happened, were larger and table games did better between plus or minus one day from the full moon, which by the way, matches magical lore. I mean, all kinds of things are related to when the full moon happens. Religious facts and all kinds of things. So I thought, well, that's interesting. More jackpots happen plus or minus the day of the full moon. And so I said to the general manager, maybe this is something you don't want to tell people because they'll all start coming in the full moon. She said, yeah, bring them in. Because all you could do with this information was lose a little bit slower because everything is, you know, you Vegas. Yeah, it's not rigged, but it's set up in such a way that the odds are against you. So you would lose slower, but nevertheless you'd see that in the data. So there's something interesting. Okay, so I get to the end of my time at UNLV and a new door opens. And partially because of the New York Times piece, that book that I had written at Princeton that nobody wanted to buy suddenly had publishers calling me and saying, do you ever think about writing a book? Yeah, I have one. So I published that book that caught the attention of people at an organization called Interval Research, which was funded by Paul Allen, the, the co founder of Microsoft. So Paul Allen was interested in doing what he called developing the wired world. This would have been started in 1990 as a 10 year project to figure out, given that the Internet was going to be a gigantic thing, what do we do with it? So this was people that were poached from Apple and from Xerox PARC and the MIT lab and all. Lots of places they brought 100 people together. And so I was invited to do a psy research program there with a budget that was 10 times larger than I had at UNLV and a salary that was three times larger. So I thought, yeah, that's the door that I want. So at Interval, everything was proprietary because it was all leading into patents that would eventually create things. And so some of the things we take for granted now were developed there. I was there not so much to develop a psychic technology, but because a small percentage of the projects were considered blue sky. To make sure that everybody in the lab realized that we're trying to push the envelope hard in developing new things. And so it's always useful to have a couple of speculative projects around. So I worked on that and then the 10 years was over in 2000. So this is all in Silicon Valley. So a Couple of us then left to create a non profit which we call the Boundary Institute, which would continue the research that we were doing. And then that lasted for about a year because there was the dot com crash and we couldn't raise money to keep ourselves afloat. I was invited then to join the Institute of Noetic Sciences where I've been now for the last 25 years. So the circle here is, here I am in college and looking at this place, studying the frontiers of consciousness and that's where I end up. And I've been there ever since. And no new doors have opened that have attracted me. So I'm there and I've been having great fun at the Institute.

[Joe Rogan]

I interrupted you when we were talking about numbers being associated with targets and you were expanding on actionable data, like real. Like what. What was the most impressive thing to you that you saw that people achieved with remote viewing?

[Dean Radin]

Do you mean from an operational sense or.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean just, just for people listening. Like, what would be the most spectacular example of something that couldn't be achieved any other way?

[Dean Radin]

Well, one of the things was actually admitted by President Carter way back when when they found a bomber, a nuclear bomber that landed somewhere in Africa which could not be seen from above because of the canopy of all the. And nobody knew where it actually landed.

[Joe Rogan]

It crashed, right?

[Dean Radin]

It crashed. There was a bomb on board that they did not want anybody else to get. And so they asked one of the remote viewers, in fact, this one, they asked several of them, but one of them specialized in location, which is very difficult for remote viewing. Like if you look at a map and you say, well, you know, put a dot in the map for where it is. That turns out to not be very easy even for remote viewers. But this one lady was very, very good at that. She was a dowser, in fact, she was a map dowser. So you get a big piece of blank.

[Joe Rogan]

You're saying dowser, like those people that walk around with the stick to find water.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, except map dowsing is you have a blank sheet of paper which is linked by association to an actual map somewhere. You don't, you know, you don't want to give anything away, so you don't use a real map, use a piece of paper which is, has little X's on it, that map, onto an actual map.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Dean Radin]

So we asked this lady, her name was Fran, put a mark on the map of where this bomber landed. And of course she doesn't know it's Africa. She doesn't know anything. She does her thing, she puts A mark on the map and says, I think it's there. So they go there and they find it within a couple of kilometers of that spot.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Dean Radin]

And so they originally go to that spot. They see natives nearby. So they asked the natives, you know, was there anything crashing out of the sky recently? Said, yeah, something happened over there. That's where it was.

[Joe Rogan]

Now, what did Carter say when he. When he spoke about this publicly?

[Dean Radin]

Carter was asked a very similar question. Did you ever encounter anything really weird? So that's the example that he used.

[Joe Rogan]

Didn't Carter have UFO experience before he

[Dean Radin]

had that as well? Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And Carter was. The folklore is that Carter was briefed about something having to do with alien life and he was so upset that he started weeping.

[Dean Radin]

Yes, I have heard those stories. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think about those stories?

[Dean Radin]

It could well be true. Yeah. I mean, so here there's actually.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you ever hear a rumor of what he was told?

[Dean Radin]

No, I don't know what he was told. If I had to guess, given that he was a very religious person, it probably was pushing against his religious beliefs. Yeah, that's what I would guess.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you know, that was the giant rumor that was going around recently that there was going to be some big disclosure by the White House and that a bunch of pastors had been briefed about this to try to talk to their flock and, you know, get ahead of it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You heard that, right?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What did you think of that?

[Dean Radin]

It could well be true. So I. I know Jacques Vallee really well.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a fascinating guy.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And I know Gary Nolan, another fast. Yeah. I've worked in circles where we basically all known each other for a long time. And the. The UFO business, uap, is very similar in some respects to the psychic side, both in that there's an enormous amount of misinformation that has been pushed by government, by other places, to deflect attention. And so there's lots of examples of that, which, I mean, because of what we know now about the UFO thing, it's relatively easy to see how that could have happened for. For the psy business as well. So just one example. I go to the Naval War College and I've given a number of lectures, and one of them is on telepathy. How do we know that telepathy actually exists? There's a bunch of different ways of knowing that. And so afterwards, two sub commanders come up. In fact, that's the story. That's the opening story gambit in my book Science and Magic. So the two sub commanders Come up and they say, well, we have a story to tell you. These are two independent subs. The commanders are two subs. So I'm telling them everything we know about telepathy. And they say, well, one time, and we're submerged, we're under maneuvers. A crewman wakes up from a dream and goes to the commander and says, we need to surface because something bad has happened at home. Well, we can't. We're under maneuvers. Next time we can surface. Well, then you can call home. So the next time they surface, they call home. And sure enough, when the sailor woke up from his dream, there was indeed something bad happening at home. So both of the commanders had the same story. So I said, well, does this happen like every Tuesday? No, there were no false positives. It happened once and both times it was correct. That's very important to know. Not simply that it happens, but it is happening. When the submarines are at a classified depth, which means at least 300 meters, probably more below the surface of the ocean, where it's extremely difficult to get any kind of message there. So it's not electromagnetic. We don't know what that would be.

[Joe Rogan]

What were the events at home that were bad?

[Dean Radin]

They didn't tell me the events at home, but it was personal events, like someone's family, something in their family, something was going wrong which turned out to be correct. So one thing is, yes, it tells us something that's important to know from a scientific perspective because they are not reachable by ordinary means. That's the whole point about having a submarine. Very difficult to know where they are and get messages to them. The other thing is that people who are selected to be submariners are psychologically extremely stable. They're not prone to flights of fantasy. They don't have claustrophobia. They. They don't have any kind of the neuroses that you would imagine that somebody would need to go into a submarine for months submerged, who knows where. So it means that this happens to ordinary people, in this case, in an altered state of awareness, namely in a dream state. But nevertheless, they got it and there were no false positives. So I was a little. Whenever I give a talk to a new type of group, especially in the military, always thinking that these guys are. They think I'm nuts because I'm telling them stuff that shouldn't exist by any conventional perspective. It's exactly the opposite. I mostly have talked to officers, like up to generals and admirals and a few levels below that. They're all completely on board. And I began to Understand why that not only are they in life and death situations and that's where these things tend to bubble up, but also they had to trust their intuition in making lots of decisions that affect other people. And they would not have risen through the ranks unless they were really, really good at it. So that's why I was not getting the kind of pushback that I expected to get.

[Joe Rogan]

Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is very interesting too. You know, Bell Labs is also the source of myth and folklore about the Roswell crash. That they received things from the Roswell craft and back engineered it. Do you know that whole crazy.

[Dean Radin]

I know about those stories. I don't know any, I don't have any direct knowledge of anything.

[Joe Rogan]

Never heard anything. When you were there, there was a company called the American Computer Company way back in the day and they just would sell, you know, Windows computers. You could, you pick out the hard drive and all this jazz online. They'd build it for you. And they had a whole page of their website that was dedicated to Bell Laboratories and Bell Laboratories being close to a military base, not because the military base was really to protect New York City, it was really to protect Bell Labs because they were working all this top secret stuff there and that they had back engineered some stuff from the Roswell crash. This is all like this. Maybe it's so fun. Why is that stuff so fun?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, maybe. I mean after all they invented the fiber optics, lasers and everything in modern

[Joe Rogan]

fiber optics specifically was one of the things that they discussed as being something that they discovered.

[Dean Radin]

Well, there is, I mean if you go to the, to the ordinary history, you can figure out why that happened. Not that it didn't involve reverse engineering anything. That there's a long history about why somebody would have gotten to the point to realize that you can do certain things with glass. That would be interesting. Whether the idea came from somewhere else

[Joe Rogan]

that I don't know, it's just interesting. It's fascinating when you find out that there are these very limited access programs that are beyond top secret that even the President can't find out about them.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah. And so one of the disadvantages of a special access program is that you could be working next to somebody and are not allowed to talk about what they're doing. And that was happening a lot. So a lot of the Stargate program is now public. There's like four volumes that go through great gory detail on this called the Stargate archives. Not all of it has been released. So a lot of the military stuff will never be released because it involves people and methods and so on. Some of the research side is not released either. And so I know about that because I was in there. I also just by virtue of hanging around other people, you learn things that they talk about. So I know about some of those things too. And I know when you're talking to Hal Puthoff and occasionally you would ask him something and he'd say, well, I can't talk about that. Well, I can't talk about this.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. That's a problem. Does that frustrate you that you can't openly discuss some of these things?

[Dean Radin]

Yes, it was especially frustrating when I was working there because we go into the building and we're doing all kinds of interesting psychic things and you go out of the building and it does not only doesn't exist that if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say, I can't talk about it because that would mean they know you have to go along with the game and just agree with everybody else that it's all nonsense. So it's nonsense out there and in here we're working on it. So that kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

What a weird psychological dilemma.

[Dean Radin]

Well, even worse. The whole point about classification is to keep secrets. We were figuring out ways that you can't keep secrets. Right? I mean, the whole thing about remote viewing and telepathy and all that stuff, there are no secrets with the right talented people. Nothing can be shielded. Nothing outside. Everything is all about secrets. So one of the reasons I think that these topics still have a stigma attached to them and why there's disinformation is because imagine how this society would work if there were no secrets.

[Joe Rogan]

Don't you think that technology is eventually taking us in that direction?

[Dean Radin]

Yes, but it's not going to be neuralink. It's not going to be brain computer stuff. It's going to be the real thing.

[Joe Rogan]

So you think technology will aid us in achieving the real thing?

[Dean Radin]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

How so?

[Dean Radin]

Okay, so one day we're talking to Gary Nolan. Gary says, have you ever looked at the genetics of highly talented people? There's a lot of folklore out there that there are people who are psychic who come from psychic families, and then there are people who don't have anything psychic and don't have anybody talking about psychic stuff that suggests genetics. So this was a couple years ago. We decided to do an experiment that we call psy genes. We're looking for the psychic gene, more likely a polygenetic trait, but nevertheless something about genetics. So we do an experiment where we recruit 3,000 people using the Internet, who say that they're psychic from psychic families. And then we do all kinds of vetting to make sure that they are who they say they are and they have some talent. And we get their DNA. We only had enough money to find out of the 3,000 people, 13, because we also did face to face interviews to make sure they weren't nuts. So we get their DNA, then we find match controls and we do standard methods of comparing the two, the two sets of genomes. And so we found something that we didn't expect, which was that the psychics were all so called wild type. They didn't have any unusual things happening in their DNA. The controls had a significant effect in an intron sequence. So when you have DNA, it's billions of base pairs, only about 50,000 of them produce proteins. It's called the exome, it's a portion that creates our body. It's that stuff. All of the rest of it used to be called junk DNA because they didn't know what it did. It's the intron sequence. It's the thing between the genes that now we know is the epigenetic portion. It's the portion of the DNA that turns genes on and off. These controls had a mutation in their intron sequence. So they were turning something off. We still don't know exactly what it is, but something about their makeup was turning off psychic sensitivity. And so one of the people on our project was a specialist in the genetics of societies. Different societies have different genetic makeup and he found that to our surprise there too, that countries that were exposed to Christianity, the longer they were exposed, the more this intron sequence was there, the mutation. We started thinking, well how does that make any sense? Then suddenly we understood the Inquisition had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who had these abilities and then they killed them. And so you think about this is a non evolutionary method, but nevertheless a pruning of a portion of humanity. So they were getting rid of people who had this and what were left over were people who had this. No psychic stuff at all. So yeah, so it's like a eugenics in an opposite direction where they weren't trying to pull people for talent, but get rid of the talent. And you can see it in the genome.

[Joe Rogan]

And this is directly connected to the Inquisition, because the Inquisition, this is. What were they like, who were they targeting specifically?

[Dean Radin]

They were targeting witches. So the witches were once. I mean an awful lot of innocent people were caught up in that as well. But people who are known as healers, who are people who had precognition. And of course, the church at the time was just concerned that somebody's going to come along that's going to attract our followers away from us. So magic was okay within the church, within the bounds of the church, if a priest is anointed in a certain way, they can do magic. The whole ceremony of the Eucharist is a magical practice. It's okay. Outside of the church, it was not okay. And so it was a very heavy handed way of ensuring that the power would remain in the church.

[Joe Rogan]

So by enforcing their Christian ideology, they eliminated anybody that had any alternative powers or visions or anything weird, any other kind of practices.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And so the, the case of the Catholic saints is very interesting. Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to have levitated and also to do bilocation, very psychic things. He was very. He was lucky in a sense that he was already a priest. Lots of people, thousands of people saw him levitate. And he made basically a deal was made with the Inquisition that you now need to go to this place out in the middle of nowhere and don't show this anymore to anybody, because we don't.

[Joe Rogan]

So when you say he could levitate, like how high?

[Dean Radin]

There are stories of him levitating 30ft,

[Joe Rogan]

sometimes drifting into the rafters of churches in front of astonished crowds. And even Pope Urban viii. You could read more about it in his extraordinary life through Franciscan media.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. St. Teresa Lap, the patron saint.

[Joe Rogan]

Go back, please. Often called the patron saint of air travelers.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, why not? We're all levitating.

[Joe Rogan]

That is the most famous levitator in Catholic history. So there's other levitators?

[Dean Radin]

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a book called how come Nobody

[Joe Rogan]

could do that Now.

[Dean Radin]

There are stories that people can do it now, but so far in the laboratory, we haven't been able to see this.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a book called Stop, Stop, please go back. This one, St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish mystic who famously recorded that her levitations occurred unexpectedly during states of deep spiritual rapture. She described the sensation as a violent force lifting her up from beneath her feet and was so embarrassed by it that she instructed fellow nuns to physically hold her down. Whoa.

[Dean Radin]

Dozens. Dozens.

[Joe Rogan]

Francis of Assisi. But it's like, do it now. Why do you think people don't do it now and film it on their iPhone?

[Dean Radin]

Well, so the TM organization had a siddhi program, the Siddhi Yogic powers. And they had this whole thing for a long time about yogic flyers. So one time I went to the University where they were going to show the four best yogic flyers. So we're all excited about that. Me and a few other people. And so there are four young men who go in full lotus position and then hop.

[Joe Rogan]

I've seen that.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, so. So we were like, you know, right next to them, seeing hopping. And the hopping is pretty good because you're in a full lotus position and you hop around two and a half feet.

[Joe Rogan]

It's plyometrics though.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah, it was hopping. So I asked them, well, why, why aren't anybody flowing? Why, why is the flying not happening? There they go, right? Yeah. So you have to be pretty strong to do that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but that's all that is. Yeah, I know guys who can do that.

[Dean Radin]

So the Maharishi was asked, why isn't anybody flying? And his response was, there's too many people who think it's impossible. So it becomes like a sociological thing. So is that true? I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think it's people or more closed minded than the ideas, than anything outside the norm, anything like that? Levitation. It's nonsense. So it's like it's permeated our zeitgeist.

[Dean Radin]

Yes, I believe that it can act as a block for other people. So you haven't asked yet why, as a scientist who worked at Princeton and Bell Labs, why am I writing about magic? It's because of a couple of experiences that told me that our understanding of psychic effects now is like in a box. We generally do experiments. We get relatively small effects. They're not gigantic effects. They're not levitation. Well, maybe it's the same thing. Somebody can make a random number generator, do something. You need statistics to see it. They're really small, but we don't know the limits. So I've had a few experiences that told me I really don't know what the limits are. And so that brings up this. So bending a bowl of a spoon without force, which I did. And so I brought you a spoon. This is the same spoon, it's from 1961. It's this particular. So I set up this. I went to a spoke old spoon bending party.

[Joe Rogan]

Because you bent that spoon with your brain or your mind or your consciousness or whatever it is something.

[Dean Radin]

I mentally did something. But I'll show you in a minute how we did this. So the reason I did this, because I was at interval and at the time Russ Targ was working for me in Ed May too. And Rust came back from one of these parties and he said he had bent A rebar, A half inch rebar, which, I mean, some muscle men can do that, but you have to be pretty strong to bend a rebar and have it stay there. So I was thinking, that is ridiculous. I didn't say that, but I was thinking that's impossible. And the same thing about this. If you bend the neck of a spoon, which is what typically people do, a person can do that just. And it's gone so fast that you can't see it. And then you hide it and you reveal it and it looks like you've bent it. So I went to one of these parties and I heard that there was a woman there who was able to bend the bowl of the spoon just by touching it. Not by itself, but sort of touching it and moving it over. And I said, I want to see that, because it's ridiculous. So I'm standing in front of this woman and she's holding it like this. She has a thumb there and finger here. And so she's waiting for her to do it. And I'm mimicking her because I want to. I want to see how she's doing it. You know, is it a trick? So we're doing that and nothing is happening. And then somebody says, look what you did. And I'm looking, oh, somebody did something. No, Dean, look what you did. I bent it 90 degrees and I immediately look at my fingers. Did I do this by force? No indication. No indentation or anything. And so the person said, bend it all the way. So it was halfway, and I literally went and went all the way. So now I have this spoon and I'm sort of mind boggled by it because I know it wasn't force. I'm not strong enough to be able to do that. Very few people would be able to do it. So I have another spoon just like it, and I'm on the plane flying home, and I'm trying to do it with the spoon, and I suddenly get a huge shock of fear because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000ft up and I don't know how I did it. And I don't want the wings to suddenly go shoo because I'm. I still don't know exactly how, but I know the metallurgy now. So it turns out that if you're holding it like that and you can do between 50 and 70 pounds of force, suddenly, like an impulse, you will cause the lattice that forms the grain boundary to momentarily soften. And then for about 20 seconds, it will be really, really soft. And at that Point. You can literally just take a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did, and squish it over. Instantly tightens up again.

[Joe Rogan]

But there's no explanation for what caused the initial force.

[Dean Radin]

No, because I. I was holding it like this, and I. I can't do it.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you do that now?

[Dean Radin]

No, I don't. I don't know how I did it. I do know, however.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that the actual spoon you did it with?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, this is the spoon.

[Joe Rogan]

Can't feel it. This is a regular spoon.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it's.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Dean Radin]

I want to show you.

[Joe Rogan]

Pretty easy to bend.

[Dean Radin]

I want to show you this other part here. This is the motivation. So I was told. Well, more importantly than that is to take the full spoon that you have, because this is what I was working.

[Joe Rogan]

This one was already weakened, right? No, no, but I mean, now it is.

[Dean Radin]

No, that is the way it is. It's a little spongy, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like that. I just did that.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, you're applying it out. Yeah. And you have to apply a lot of force to do it.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot. Yeah, I got a really strain.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I have bad thumbs. But once it's like that, I could kind of do that.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. Well, now, of course, you smoothed it out. So now try to do it without it being in that position.

[Joe Rogan]

With just one finger.

[Dean Radin]

No, just like. Like this. Hold. Hold it like that. Hold thumb underneath, finger on top. Yeah. And bend it down. Not the neck.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's been in the neck. Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

The shell shape resists bending.

[Joe Rogan]

It's very hard to bend.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And more importantly, don't hurt your fingers on this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I can't do it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I might be able to do it if it was more stable, but it's very hard to do. It's not something that's.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. With leverage, certainly you can do it. But there. There was a clamp.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe I could do it.

[Dean Radin]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But I mean, I would want to use both hands. I'd want to, like, get in there.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, but that's. No, that's not what happens.

[Joe Rogan]

But to do it with a finger, that's very hard to do. And you don't know how you did it.

[Dean Radin]

Well, so I was in a very weird state of motivation as we were told that if you could do that without force, that you would get this button

[Joe Rogan]

certified. Warm former.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So. So there's called warm. Warm formering because you're forming this as though it became warm. Because it feels like. It feels like putty when it Actually,

[Joe Rogan]

that's what I had heard that people do with like the necks of them.

[Dean Radin]

Oh yeah, no, the neck. I wasn't interested in the neck.

[Joe Rogan]

I've seen a guy do that and he told me it was a trick. He goes, I'm not gonna tell you how I do it. I'm not using magic.

[Dean Radin]

You could just do it.

[Joe Rogan]

No, he said he was like doing something like rubbing it with his fingers and it would like. It was a specific type of spoon or something.

[Dean Radin]

But even with this spoon, I mean, you're certainly strong enough to be able to push it over at the, at the neck. The shell shape is very difficult.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I can't, I can't do it.

[Dean Radin]

So I was told if I did

[Joe Rogan]

it, but look, I had to use both hands.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, and you, you apply leverage and you're going to feel it tomorrow in your fingers too.

[Joe Rogan]

Nah, I'll be right. But yeah, this is, that's very hard to do.

[Dean Radin]

So if you could do it, you get a button. So the next day I was giving a talk to this conference. This was held at a conference. And I imagined myself with my suit on with the button. And it was like some kind of weird ego thing where I felt I needed to demonstrate to the people in the audience that I can do this stuff. And it was so strange because I'm not very egotistical and I'm not self aggrandizing either. But there was something about getting this stupid button that put me in a position where I felt if I don't do this, the universe will end up. I mean, that kind of level of obsessiveness really. I needed the button for no reason. Well, because I needed the button.

[Joe Rogan]

I know, but that's kind of crazy.

[Dean Radin]

I don't know how to do it.

[Joe Rogan]

It seems like something you would be interested in, knowing you for the brief amount of time that I've known you.

[Dean Radin]

Nevertheless, that is the case. That is the, the strange state I was in. And it's, it's relevant to the idea of how traditional magic is supposed to work. There's a number of factors involved. There's belief and motivation is very important. Imagination and a bunch of other things. So it's very difficult in an experiment to create that level of motivation. This is not something I want. This is something I need. I need this to happen. So. Well, so I got the button. And the moment I did that and he gave me the button, it all vanished. The whole thing about the need was suddenly and everything in the universe was okay again. So that's when you look into how magic works, you build up this sense. And there's two ways of doing it. One is very long term meditation where you can gain certain skills. And the other one I call screaming at fire so that the image that that evokes you're screaming at fire. It's that kind of motivation which allows things to unfold that otherwise wouldn't happen.

[Joe Rogan]

So this state, have you ever tried to achieve this state again under any other circumstances?

[Dean Radin]

Well, yeah, in the airplane and now I don't do that in the airplane because I don't know how I did it in the first place.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, I have tried several times since with a quarter inch aluminum bar. This is the same kind of bar used in aircraft. It's very strong, very stiff, and you start with it flat and it doesn't rock at all. And so I was able to make it go so that it rocks a little bit. It moved at probably a fraction of a millimeter using the same kind of thing, but without that crazy motivation because I didn't have a button.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you film yourself ever doing this? No, no. Has anybody ever filmed themselves doing something like this?

[Dean Radin]

There are some films of people doing this. Generally what you see is it breaking like a spoon will break here and go bleep. But again, there was a lot of research on this in the 1970s by metallurgists and physicists. Some became convinced that it's real and some came convinced that it wasn't real.

[Joe Rogan]

So there's some kind of energy, some unknown energy that you're transmitting to that spoon.

[Dean Radin]

I think what's happening is very similar to what's going on with these micro PK events, micro psychokinetic events, that you're changing probabilistic structure at a very deep level at the atomic level. And that would actually do it here. If you're able to target like a strip across here, you can momentarily cause the grains to shift.

[Joe Rogan]

And the fact that you didn't know you did it.

[Dean Radin]

I didn't know how I did it. I just know what I wanted to happen.

[Joe Rogan]

But did you recognize it was happening while it was happening?

[Dean Radin]

No, no, I was too freaked out.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I'm saying. Like, so the state of mind was so peculiar.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That you were doing it without even focusing on the fact that you were doing it.

[Dean Radin]

I'm pretty sure if I was being analytical at the time, it would not have happened.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what's so weird about the whole idea of intuition, is that if you try it, if you like, you really think about it too much. Then you get fucked by your own perceptions in some way. Like you. You skew the thing, you start defining it and you can't see it anymore.

[Dean Radin]

It's in a very general sense, it's right versus left brain. Our left brains are analytical. It's. It's what allows us to do this sort of communication. It is maintaining stability about the way that we think the world works. The right brain isn't interested in that stuff at all. It's about form and function. That's where remote viewing and most psychic stuff takes place. And it's not simple as left and right brain, but it's generally a general idea. So the second level of our psygeenes test, so they're both published now. So the second one, we need thousands of cases and controls in order to do this, right? Like if you're studying schizophrenia, what's the genetic basis? Use tens of thousands of cases and they know the genes. Now, as a result, we don't have money to do that. So we got data from 23andMe and from Ancestry and those kinds of places that give you your exome. So it's not the full genome, it's a portion of it. And we had people fill out a questionnaire of what kind of experiences you had, and then we're able to do an analysis. Is there a correlation between the two? And the answer is yes. We found 212 SNPs. These are single nucleotide polymorphisms. So it's a piece of the genome. 212 correlated with these psychic experiences, one of which correlated with a probability of a million to one. So that one's probably a real thing. So what is that SNP associated with? You go into the atlas and you can say, well, what portion of the body is that involved in? And it's involved with a whole bunch of different things happening in the brain. So anybody who's listening who has $10 million to spare and wants us to figure out what is the rest of the story, we can do that because we have the technology now.

[Joe Rogan]

Elon, you got some cash? Throw it at this thing. So do you, when you think of consciousness, do you think that we as individual biological entities are interacting with consciousness and with different levels of achieving certain aspects of consciousness, some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training, but that we're just these individual biological entities that are tapping into whatever consciousness is?

[Dean Radin]

Yes and no. But you see the subtitle, how the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality. So I'M viewing this as consciousness and the physical world are like a tapestry. They're both necessary for our understanding of reality. And they're weaved together. They're both part of it. You can't have just the physical world. Maybe you can't just have a consciousness world either. They're working together. So we are that our physical body, our consciousness are woven together into the form that we currently take. So that is essentially a philosophy called dual aspect monism. There's one world of which we don't know what that is, but two things split out of it, mind and matter. But they come out of something that is uniform. It's one thing. So Carl Jung called it the unus mundus, the one world out of which things split. Well, why does it split? His idea was that it splits because of meaning. So meaning is what caused this mind matter split. And because they come out of the same place, they're tightly correlated, like two sides of the same coin.

[Joe Rogan]

But meaning being very subjective, right?

[Dean Radin]

Meaning, yeah, that's a good question. Because Jung did not clearly define what he meant by meaning. We sort of know what that means, what meaning means, but it's in that theory at least, or the philosophy. It's not clearly defined.

[Joe Rogan]

So when you get down to this one thing that these two things branch out, what is the one thing?

[Dean Radin]

It's the one thing that everything comes from. And also mind and matter are two aspects that split, but there's an infinite number of other aspects that can split out of this one thing. So maybe it splits into other worlds, it splits into other universes. It splits. We don't know how. Splits into aliens. We don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a lot of we don't know.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it comes down to anywhere in science. We don't know the leading edge. We do not know. And it's largely because science doesn't answer why. We don't know why. Why does an electron have a certain charge on it? We don't know. That's the way it is. Science observes stuff and then tries to make theories to explain it. And sometimes we're really good. We can make stuff out of it. But when it comes down to brass tacks, most of the answers are we really don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

And it gets down to the base of the observable universe. You get to like quantum mechanics and quantum theory and particles being connected. Spooky action at a distance. You get to the weird stuff about quantum. The quantum world and particles being in superposition, moving and still at the same time being Connected over vast distances. Like what? That's magic. Like whatever the hell that is. That doesn't seem to follow any of the rules of reality that we, like average people, exist in.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, but her average experience is provincial. It's, it's human centric, at human time scales. And so imagine a few thousand years ago, you'd look up the dark sky and see a bunch of stars, and a couple of them look kind of fuzzy. Well, you didn't know they were galaxies. Well, you take the James Webb telescope now, and the estimate is at least 3,000 galaxies in the observable universe. So imagine how your cosmology changes between those two. In one case, you're the center of the universe and there's some smudgy stars, a few of them, five of them about. Now we know we are in the middle of nowhere in some gigantic universe with basically no understanding of the rest of it. Cosmology is changing day by day. So I gave a talk on this recently about how every time a new instrument extends our senses, whole new realms of reality open up that weren't even imagined before. So the reason why I'm continuing to be so interested in what is the nature of consciousness, what is the frontier, is because without consciousness, we wouldn't know anything. Quite literally, we wouldn't be aware of anything. So in some respects, we are creating all of this. So something seems weird because we don't have the senses yet to be able to actually experience it directly.

[Joe Rogan]

God, it's such a fascinating subject. And the concept of consciousness interacting with things,

[Dean Radin]

less than. Yes, interacting, but more so that everything is built of it, it's part of it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not just experiencing, is it?

[Dean Radin]

In a sense, it is it. Yeah. If you go all the way to full blown idealism, which is the philosophy that everything is consciousness, everything the physical world emerges out of consciousness. That's idealism. It turns out that almost all of the founders of quantum mechanics were idealists, which is pretty odd when you think about it. The most successful physical theory developed so far were people who are idealists, who felt that everything ultimately was consciousness. Not only that, most of them were also mystics. They read very extensively in Eastern philosophy. They knew about mysticism. They were deeply into it. And that still is true for leading physicists today.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think there's ancient truths in all that, all the mystic traditions and all these different things that have existed in religious texts?

[Dean Radin]

There is truth there that has been distorted by history and language? Yes. And it doesn't help that the not going to pick on the Catholic Church. But religion in general has said, of course there's magic. Like, everything is magic, supernatural. Fill in the blank. But don't pay too much attention to it, which is kind of strange, especially in the spiritual traditions. So I had an opportunity to talk to a famous guru called Sadhguru. Okay. So I asked Sadhguru, I'm a scientist, and I'm studying psychic phenomena. But within the yogic tradition and virtually every other spiritual tradition, you're told not to do that. Don't pay attention to these psychic things. They're a deflection. So I said, well, am I wasting my time as a scientist? I mean, what do I do then? And also, why did the spiritual tradition say that? And his answer was, imagine you're riding in a car and you've never ridden in a car before, and you like the feeling of the air as it's going against your arm. Well, it might rip your arm off if you go near a tree. So the underlying story is you're dealing with something which is so powerful, you don't know what you're doing, and it's too powerful, so don't do it. To which I was thinking, well, you're saying I shouldn't be doing this, but that only makes me want to do it more because, like, we need to figure out what this stuff is. Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. The idea that you should just ignore it is ridiculous.

[Dean Radin]

But that's what the spiritual traditions do. They say, ignore it.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that so they can maintain control, so they can be the purveyors of knowledge. And no one goes outside of that realm and questions the ideology.

[Dean Radin]

Some of it is that, yes, certainly within Catholicism, Christianity in general. Yes, don't do that. It's written into the catechism, like, don't do this magic stuff because it's demonic. I mean, that's kind of beaten into your head for a long time.

[Joe Rogan]

Where did that come from? Why demonic? Because the potential for it going wrong

[Dean Radin]

because it's not within the bounds of the Church.

[Joe Rogan]

That's it.

[Dean Radin]

Yep. Everything else is demonic, and it will get you. And by the way, there's still a lot of people in our own government and in the military who believe that. And that is one of the reasons why UFOs has been deflected.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, J.D. vance said he thinks they're definitely demons.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I can't wait to

[Joe Rogan]

ask him about that again.

[Dean Radin]

The same is true for psychic stuff and UFOs. Right. This is demonic. People like, we shouldn't be doing this. So within Spiritual traditions. The other reason given is that the power is seductive and people are too weak. And so if you gain this power by one means or the other, you're going to use it badly. And that probably is true. That's why, at least within the yogic tradition, if you're going through the path where you're eventually going to gain the siddhis, you spend probably the first three to five years not doing that. You learn how to get your ego in check. And so that turns out to be an extremely important aspect of the yogic training. And the yoga, by the way, has very little or nothing to do with the whole stretching and the maneuvers. All of that, all of the things that we think of as yoga in the west are designed to get you strong enough so you can sit in a lotus position for eight hours, because that's where the action starts in meditation. It's not the physical side.

[Joe Rogan]

It is a reality of the human condition that if you give people that kind of power and that kind of influence over others, a large percentage will abuse it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Or at least use it to their own for their own personal gain, to control people and to set themselves up

[Dean Radin]

as being godlike or so here's what I told Sadhguru. So one of the projects, because of her interest in this cy genes thing, it's going to be a very complicated series of genes and probably intron sequence and so on, but nevertheless we have the tools. We can do it if we had enough money. Setting aside issue about ethics, about whether or not it's a good thing to do. Seven years ago, a couple of colleagues and I formed a company called Cognigenics to see if we could use genetic engineering methods to do something like that. Could we significantly enhance perception and cognition and memory and all of that stuff so that you don't need to be a monk going into a cave for 30 years, but you can take a genetic edit and kind of get there quickly. So again, setting aside for a moment the ethics and the power, seduction and all that, is it possible? And we now think it's possible because we've developed an intranasal delivery method for RNA interference. You shove it up the nose, you snort it up the nose, it gets into the brain and it down regulates certain receptors.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it a one time treatment?

[Dean Radin]

It's a multi time treatment because it's rna. So our RNA will last for a while and then months later you'd have to re up it. You can do it as a one time.

[Joe Rogan]

So you could literally blast something up your nose. And it'll affect your ability to do

[Dean Radin]

this stuff in principle for psychic things. But we see that that's far in the future. What we're doing now as a company is addressing dementia. So we're looking for ways of. How do you, how do you fix memory loss, especially short term memory loss? It is related to certain receptors. Turns out to be the same receptors as in psilocybin 5ht2a. We can downregulate them.

[Joe Rogan]

You saw that study where that article recently about a woman who was she, I believe she had dementia, but she couldn't speak anymore. She took 5 grams of psilocybin mushrooms, and all of a sudden she could talk.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So this, this is doing that without the hallucinations and much, much longer. Psilocybin will get in and out of your body pretty quickly. The RNA interference will take, will come up and then stay for about a, we think a couple of months, and then slowly begin to decline. And so you would need to take this treatment, this intranasal treatment, probably every two or three months. And we don't know about the dosing yet. We've done studies with mice and rats and now with monkeys, so we know it works in a primate brain. The next couple of steps, when they

[Joe Rogan]

do the studies with monkeys, what happens?

[Dean Radin]

Well, there are two things that you look at. Well, first of all, you want to make sure that it actually gets into the brain. So you do a radioactive tag on the compound itself and then use a PET scan, Depositron emission tomography, and you can then see, does it actually get out of the nose and go into the brain? The answer is yes, we can track where in the brain it's going. We mainly want it to get down to the limbic system because that's where the hippocampus is and where memory is encoded. And we know from our studies with mice and rats, you get 100% improvement in memory in mice and rats that are either aged or normal. So normal mouse will get 100% improvement in memory. Exactly. At the same time, they'll get a, almost 100% reduction in anxiety. So as you think about a treatment for dementia, dementia patients get very anxious, so you want to calm them down and improve their memory. This does both in one shot.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

And what does it do to regular people with no ailments?

[Dean Radin]

We don't know yet.

[Joe Rogan]

No one's tried.

[Dean Radin]

Well, we don't have permission from the FDA to do clinical trials yet.

[Joe Rogan]

Wink, wink.

[Dean Radin]

If you ask the people, someone must have done it. No, we haven't tried it yet, not

[Joe Rogan]

a single person has said, shoot it up my nose.

[Dean Radin]

That would admit it. No.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that would admit it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's my point.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So it actually has pretty much the same effect as psilocybin, but it is only doing this one receptor because when you take psilocybin, there's all kinds of things going on, which is one of the reasons you get hallucinogenics. So we wanted to do this for people who probably wouldn't take a hallucinogen. It would probably come on faster and it would last a lot longer. And for some cases, like if somebody was terminal and they're losing their memory, you can make this a permanent edit as well.

[Joe Rogan]

I wonder what would happen if you combine the two.

[Dean Radin]

Which two?

[Joe Rogan]

The RNA and psilocybin.

[Dean Radin]

Well, we. Once we get this approved, we'll have you do it and see what happens.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, let's find out.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, yeah, I'll come back and quit the podcast immediately. Like, I've got other things to do.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. This would only last for a while. I mean, we're specifically making it temporary because if somebody had a bad trip on it, essentially. Right. It'll. It'll eventually go away, and so it's not a big deal.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you continue to do it, like brushing your teeth.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. Well, so one. One of our concerns is that, because this is going to improve memory, if you. If a normal person who doesn't have dementia, would it be something that the kids are going to try to just snort all the time?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

So, like Ritalin. That would not be good. So this would almost.

[Joe Rogan]

Or would it be awesome?

[Dean Radin]

Let's put it this way. It probably will not ever be otc. It's not gonna. You're not gonna be able to buy this at the drugstore.

[Joe Rogan]

It's gonna be have. You'll have to be prescribed.

[Dean Radin]

You have to be prescribed.

[Joe Rogan]

Find a dirty doctor in Tijuana.

[Dean Radin]

You also, you will need. You need a special kind of delivery system. So we think of a nose spray. It's atomizing the stuff. It gets down into lower nose. In order to get it into the brain, you need to shoot stream all the way up to the back. It's like the cleft right up here. And just beyond that is a bone that separates it from the brain. A compound gets through that bone.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Dean Radin]

So. And it has all to do with how big is the. Is the compound. Right. So similar to, like, if you snort cocaine, it'll get in there. It gets in your brain because it's a certain size, but you can imagine

[Joe Rogan]

if this just becomes a performance enhancing substance that normal people take, you know,

[Dean Radin]

that could very likely happen. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So, I mean, we're being very careful at this point. We have people on board who are ethicists to say, because we're talking about enhancing human performance and human cognition and perception, can we enhance it all the way out into extrasensory perception, esp, meaning psychic stuff? We don't know. But as I said, once we find what the polygenetic trait is, it's the

[Joe Rogan]

story of the lady who did the mushrooms.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So. Case study published in Frontiers in Neuroscience. Researchers focused on an 80 year old Japanese American woman with Alzheimer's. Her condition had declined over the last decade and was reduced to urinary incontinence. Speaking in single syllables and dependence on caregivers for mobility and support, she was then given a 5 gram dose of magic mushrooms. During the initial phase, she was agitated, sweated profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep state that suggested unconsciousness. But around hour 19, she began speaking in full sentences, recalling life events she had been unable to articulate for years. In the days and weeks that followed, more incredible changes emerged. She regained urinary continence, even in the evenings, and began dressing herself. She was able to make and maintain eye contact, remember social interactions, emotionally respond to others and hold lucid conversations.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

That's one dose.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So what happens when you take this? You take psilocybin. The first effect is that it is a 5ht 2a agonist. It means it's souping up that particular receptor, but the brain notices that and then it down regulates.

[Joe Rogan]

You see what it says here? A subsequent 3 gram dose of psilocybin was given to the patient and was followed by increased verbal expression, humor and greater walking agility. Miraculous as the mushrooms may seem, the study authors note that the patient's improvements were temporary and psilocybin did not reverse the disease as her neurodegeneration remained. They did not specifically, they did not specify exactly how long the improvements lasted. However, the researchers. The research does demonstrate that some function believed to be irrevocably lost to late stage dementia may not be gone, but merely inaccessible. And that a mushroom trip has the potential to recover it, albeit briefly. But it sounds like this would be even better at that.

[Dean Radin]

Well, this has the hallucinatory part in the beginning. The reason why we think this works and the reason why we're doing a downregulation of 5ht 2a is because when you take psilocybin, it soups it up. It's an agonist, it makes it more expressed. That's when all the hallucinations and stuff happens. Then the brain compensates and it starts pushing it back down. So it starts suppressing 5ht 2a. We're doing that directly. So we would guess then that if the reason why this happened is because of the reduction of hyperactivity which is involved with neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately. So you don't need that initial push that you're starting right from the get go with a reduction in this 5ht 2a.

[Joe Rogan]

God, that would be a phenomenal game changer for people that are suffering from this.

[Dean Radin]

Yes. And also the same platform that we use to deliver this particular compound can be used with lots of other compounds. So the more that psychiatry learns about neurodegeneration and about memory loss and all that, we can just change the compound and change the receptors. So, yeah, we can do it now.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So this now links back into the Institute of Noetic Sciences Cygenes project, which launched this thing. So we're launching it in a very pragmatic way which could help a lot of people. Keeping in mind that we can go into a place where we're beginning to enhance people. That's going to take a while to get there. And again, we think carefully about is this a good thing or not? I think it's a.

[Joe Rogan]

Of course. Why would it be a bad thing?

[Dean Radin]

I think it's a good thing.

[Joe Rogan]

What would be the bad part of it? When you try to look at it

[Dean Radin]

in worst case scenario, what I have in mind is every time a new technology came along, people think this is the best thing ever. Like, I met the guy who developed trans fats, who thought he was gonna help a lot of people because then they wouldn't, you know, fat wouldn't be so bad. Turned out to be really bad.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

And so unintended consequences. When we're developing new things, are there

[Joe Rogan]

side effects that have been observed?

[Dean Radin]

Not yet. It's partially because when you do preclinical work, there's only so many things you can infer about what a mouse or a rat is doing. Now that we're doing monkeys, we do know that there were two monkeys in our test that were very aggressive. You get near them, they'd bare their teeth. They don't want you to deal with them. They took the compound and then they were chill for two days afterwards having a single dose. Those two monkeys were no longer aggressive. So that's the anxiolytic effect.

[Joe Rogan]

We could fix society.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah. It's a nasal spray.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you imagine that? You just give it to everybody and everyone just gets along.

[Dean Radin]

Well, I mean, you probably need permission.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But I mean, if you just like told people that this is available and we don't no longer have to be in conflict with each other, that would be nice and we might be able to connect with each other on some new realm.

[Dean Radin]

That would be very nice. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And so it sounds like the pluses way, way outweigh what potential negatives could be.

[Dean Radin]

We would need to figure out first what the unintended consequences are.

[Joe Rogan]

I like how you think like a real scientist.

[Dean Radin]

Yes. The brain.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm thinking like a person's, like, let's go give it a shot.

[Dean Radin]

The brain always compensates, of course. For any kind of drug, it compensates.

[Joe Rogan]

There's no biological free lunch.

[Dean Radin]

No. So something would happen and may be good, and may be bad. We don't know yet.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Particularly for people that don't have a problem.

[Dean Radin]

Right. We're targeting people who do have a problem and so far there's no treatment for it. I mean, there's a couple of things that are mostly stimulus stimulators and they don't work that well. My dad died of dementia. I saw that happen. So I'm thinking if I can prevent that in anybody else, just to get short term memory back. Because my dad had five degrees, including a law degree, made his living as a graphic artist. So he was very intellectual, but had a very pragmatic kind of job. By the time he had advanced dementia, he could no longer watch tv. And I said, well, why not? He couldn't track what was happening in a show, he couldn't listen to audiobooks. I mean, it. That's not good.

[Joe Rogan]

Terrible thing for someone who just relies on their mind.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So I rely on my mind.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

I don't. If I would take this stuff in a second that you would if. If something like that started to happen. So, yeah, I'm thinking ahead.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

So if we have time, I would. I'd like to explain one other experience that I had which led me into thinking more about magic.

[Joe Rogan]

Can I ask you one more question about this?

[Dean Radin]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

If you developed some sort of a compound that gave real psychic ability, like something that was just undeniable, you could literally communicate with people, and you found out that this is something that you could give people as a supplement or some sort of a medication, what would you do with that information. Would you pause?

[Dean Radin]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, I would pause for the same reason that Sadhguru said this is not a good idea. Because like I told him we were doing this research on telepathy, we might be able to make people super telepathic. He said that would be a bad idea.

[Joe Rogan]

Why?

[Dean Radin]

Because we normally think of being telepathic as receiving other people's thoughts, but it's actually a two way street. You could then inject thoughts and control people. And he said that would be such a seductive power for most people that unless they had significant training beforehand, you don't want to do that.

[Joe Rogan]

Significant training like you were talking about

[Dean Radin]

the monks, ego, out of the way. Yeah. Go through meditation. And one of the things. One of the reasons why I'm interested in the noetic sciences in general is that when somebody has an experience, whether it's psilocybin or some other method, oftentimes there's a personality transformation. The personality transformation is like the positive side of ptsd. Like their mind is blown. They become pro social, which is the fancy term meaning they suddenly become compassionate, they become more interested in service, they want to help others. They could have been a complete jerk beforehand.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

Something changes and it changes in a flash and it sticks. Well, we probably ought to understand why that happens. What is it about simply getting a larger picture of who and what we are and what the nature of the universe is that becomes really, really important to understand. So we know what happens, we don't know why it happens.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the psychedelic experience is the ego death.

[Dean Radin]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's also like you would have to have the two of them together if you had ego death induced by psychedelics along with some sort of supplemental medication that allowed you to achieve like legitimate psychic ability.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, I see. You really want to do this.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm fascinated by it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I would be weird. I would be weirded out by it for sure. I mean, I don't know how I would function if I was the only one who had it. I don't think that would be a fun place to be.

[Dean Radin]

You would have to be prepared.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think it would be a real struggle.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. I mean, think about in the old days when there were mystery schools like in ancient Greece and elsewhere. So everybody would get the drug, they'd have this opening, some people would be opened and more or less stay open. But there was that drug experience that did an ego change. And so they. So you may be right that you need to have some Kind of a noetic whatever, in order to push the ego down far enough to realize that we are all interconnected.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

It's all one thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And so I think that idea has to get out there more, and I think it is more now than ever before. It's more of a common discussion that we're all connected. I feel like over the last few decades that's much more acceptable to discuss this concept of us being all connected without being dismissed as being a kook.

[Dean Radin]

Yep. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So this, which is part of the whole thing of like, if you don't believe it, if you're completely skeptical, you're blocking it. Right. And then we have to kind of understand that there's real evidence that we are all connected and this biological being that we live in that is. You know, millions and millions of years of evolution have led us to this position. And over the last, you know, 20,000 years, it's filled with barbaric acts and tribalism. Like all this stuff is encoded in us and we have to figure out how to squash that and how to move past it, move into whatever the next stage of the human experience is.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, we had better do that and it better.

[Joe Rogan]

It better involve ego death. It can't just be the psychic ability because then you're just going to have manipulative psychopaths that have the ability that other people don't. And of course, all these crazy people that want to control the world and they're going to be the ones that first have access to it.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And I think it's not exactly ego death. It's not a complete. Right. You still need some ego. Because we're embodied systems. We need to operate.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's a bad term.

[Dean Radin]

It's more like a recognition of like, you teach a kid, you're really, really angry. That doesn't mean you need to act on it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

You recognize it. And like mindful meditation, you're learning that you. Yeah, you can go.

[Joe Rogan]

Control of the ego is a better term.

[Dean Radin]

Recognition of it and control. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And understanding of it having like legitimate methods that you use to keep it in check.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But it's also like in sort of encoding in people the discipline to be able to do that because that's also involved in controlling the ego.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

But having that and where it seems like we're. If all these things come to pass and this, this technology emerges and this research continues to bear fruit, you're. You're looking at the potential for a completely different way of human beings interacting with each other.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Completely different paradigm. Like society moves into a totally different realm.

[Dean Radin]

Right. Not everybody will are interested in that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So a lot of people are very uninterested in that.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they would fuck with their business.

[Dean Radin]

Actively not interested.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

Like, and we don't want that. Right. And we don't want you to have it either.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's a fear that, that's a fear that, like if you had some real breakthroughs that were somehow or another gonna be a problem for powers that be.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, that's a problem.

[Joe Rogan]

Like when you hear about these scientists that are all involved with the UAP story wind up dead or disappearing and people say, well this, statistically, this can't be a coincidence. This is a little too weird. It's gotten to some weird number where you're going, we have to look at this.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Now so you hear the actual White House is now talking about it. Like we have to look into this.

[Dean Radin]

So the way I keep myself safe and our other colleagues, we publish everything we do. Right. It's all public domain, so we're not doing anything that's secret. And the long term consequences most people don't think about at all. So that too, I mean there are all kinds of technologies that are being developed that may have bad consequences in the future. Not that many people, except maybe professional ethicists are thinking about is this a good thing or not?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, just imagine a world where something comes along. Like let's, for lack of a better example, let's use GLP1s, right? GLP1s. Nobody heard about Ozempic and WeGovy just a decade ago. Right now all of a sudden it's a multi trillion dollar industry. It's gigantic. There's something like 39 million Americans are on these GLP1 drugs. Imagine if something comes along that is beneficial. And I'm sure that's beneficial to obese people, but beneficial in a cognitive way for people that you have. Real science, real science actually achieves a result. This result becomes a supplement and it becomes something widely used and spread. Imagine the forms of control that are used by society, that are used by governments, that are used by mass media, that are used by corporations in order to pass whatever regulations they want. When you see politicians talking, when you see the real agenda behind it, all of it would evaporate. All the bullshit, all propaganda would be completely useless. You would, you would enter into a completely new cooperative society where all the parasites and psychopaths and sociopaths would literally be exposed and you'd have to deal with Them you'd probably be terrified to realize how many of them are in control of so many institutions.

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

And how much of what you've been told is complete horseshit. How many non profits are a scam. How many different things that are happening are just happening in order to maintain control.

[Dean Radin]

That's why you can't do this overnight.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, Right.

[Dean Radin]

So the justice system would be totally different.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

Politics would be totally. Everything would be totally different.

[Joe Rogan]

Economics, everything.

[Dean Radin]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Resources. Everything.

[Dean Radin]

So there is a TV show kind of with this plot now, the one called Pluribus.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Dean Radin]

Right. The science fiction show, which I think is doing a great job in illustrating then that people.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's a nightmare.

[Dean Radin]

Well, people who are involved in the hive mind. It's like suddenly everything is fine.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I don't like it. I like the lady that gets drunk and yells at everybody.

[Dean Radin]

Well, because. Yeah, because it's a nice story.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also more recognizable.

[Dean Radin]

It's human. That's that. She's. She's us.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, she's us.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, but. And of course, there's stories like the Borg in Star Trek. And the way of hive mind is portrayed is horrific.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

Why? Because it's ego dropping. That's why.

[Joe Rogan]

It also eliminates creativity, individual expression.

[Dean Radin]

We don't know that.

[Joe Rogan]

We don't know.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Because think of it in the. In the show. It does. In the show, everybody just becomes a worker.

[Dean Radin]

No. Impuribus.

[Joe Rogan]

No, not a worker. But I mean, they're all connected. They're all like.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. That means everybody can have the skill of a surgeon. Everybody. Right. So you have a bunch of naturally creative people out there. Well, they all have it now.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. That's the glass half full version of it. Right.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

So would we collectively even be more creative?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. If instead of, you know, asking Perplexity a question, you just ask the universe a question.

[Dean Radin]

You ask the collective.

[Joe Rogan]

You ask the collective how to fix a carburetor.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And then you know how to do it. Yeah. So that's. So, I mean, from a point of view of efficiency and peace and all that stuff, I think it'd be great.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's also. People have to look at it this way, just what you have now by having a phone and being able to, like I said, just ask Perplexity any question on human history, any question on mathematics, coding, anything. It gives you all the available information instantaneously in your phone.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

If you just said that to someone 30 years ago, they would say, you're fucking crazy. You look at all the Depictions in science fiction about the future. None of them involve the Internet, none of them involve phones. None of them involve devices that you carry around that have 24 hours of battery life, that can essentially do whatever you want. Take pictures, make videos, record audio, download movies, watch them instantaneously. You could fucking do anything in these things. And we're just accustomed to it. It's just normal. Imagine a society where this technology that you're developing, Imagine this. You continue this research, 10, 20, 30 years. What do we have? What does this look like? What does you and me even talking look like? One of the reasons why I insist on doing these things in person, because I think it's a very different experience. I just. Intuitively, it just feels different when someone's in the room, when you're having a conversation with someone in the room. It's. I've had great conversations with people through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden. When we do podcasts, we have to do it that way, for obvious reasons. But there's something missing, People. When you and I are talking right now, there's something else going on. We're.

[Dean Radin]

We're.

[Joe Rogan]

We're. Our minds are connecting, and we're connecting somehow with all the people that are listening. There's this weird thing that happens, and it happens when people in proximity to each other, when they're right in the same room with each other. There's something to that.

[Dean Radin]

Right. So now think of the downside, the compensation for having phones everywhere.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Dean Radin]

So you talk to teachers about it, and they are running scared.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Dean Radin]

Right. Kids don't know how to write anything anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

No attention.

[Dean Radin]

And not only that, if you start relying on perplexity or any other kind of AI, you're in serious trouble, because those things are not perfect. Right? Right.

[Joe Rogan]

They have hallucinations, they give you bad information.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure you saw this. There was a gentleman who was recently. He was a lawyer involved in a case, and he was citing these.

[Dean Radin]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know that story.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So he's citing various cases that just didn't exist, and he had gotten them from AI.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it probably looks structurally correct, except it wasn't actually real.

[Joe Rogan]

He thought he had it. Beautiful. I got this case wrapped up, and the judge was like, none of these things you're saying have happened. They're not true.

[Dean Radin]

That's some other world.

[Joe Rogan]

Bizarre. Right. Well, hopefully that'll get ironed out.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

But the point is, you're relying now on the device to do all the thinking for you, and you're not absorbing much of that information, you're not absorbing it the same way.

[Dean Radin]

I can say as a scientist that AI is making my job much, much, much easier. So I use Claude code a lot. We use it also in our genetic research. It is making things more efficient because basically, for coding, up until things like Claude code, it took a lot of skill and time to be able to write something that did what you wanted to do.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're already a disciplined thinker. You're not a developing mind.

[Dean Radin]

Well, not only that, but when I ask AI to help me write something, I immediately see all kinds of things that it doesn't know. I say, well, where did you even get that information? It basically responds, well, I scraped it off of the entire Internet. Well, you didn't scrape very well because did you look at this and did you look at this and that? And it comes back immediately and says, oh, I apologize. I didn't. I didn't look at that part. Because the algorithms are designed to work fast, Right. And so it'll. It'll pull, like, the surface off, and usually that's okay.

[Joe Rogan]

It could be a troll Reddit post

[Dean Radin]

where someone's just fucking around who knows what it is. Like, half of Wikipedia is written by teenagers, right? So, yeah. So you need to already have a knowledge base so they can challenge what it's telling you. Because sometimes it's completely off.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Well, this is in the beginning stages of this application. Right. If you think about the beginning stages of the printing press, most of the books were like, how to Spot Witches.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it's true. So one hopes that things will. Well, of course, the danger at this point is the AI is eventually right itself, and it's already getting to that point, and then we completely lose what's going on. We have no idea.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. That gets weird.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. That was already true with the development of neural networks. So I was using neural networks back in the 80s when the idea first came up. And so you would learn that this is related to that, and I would do it through the neural network training. And then you say, well, what did you learn? You couldn't figure it out because you have all of these weights and nodes inside the network that were encoding the information, but you couldn't then extract out from it to say, well, how did you learn this? It couldn't even tell you how it learned it, but it did, and it learned it really well. So a lot of that is going on in the AI world too, that it's learning things really, really well. But it's too complex for us to Understand.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But do you think if you emphasize discipline, thinking, and teach people specifically how to think and how to learn and how to do for themselves, that they could then expand upon that knowledge with AI instead of using it as a crutch?

[Dean Radin]

Yes. Yes, yes. Is that happening? I haven't seen that yet.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I haven't seen it either. But one of the things that gives me pause is the popularity of long form conversations like this, because we have this concept about today and about human beings in general that we're losing our attention span. But yet what's one of the most popular mediums? It's long form podcast. Because I think there is still a hunger from a lot of people, and whether it's people that grew up at a different time where they did learn how to think and now they're missing it, and then they could find it in long form conversations, or whether it's just always going to be something that some people intuitively gravitate towards because they need more stimulation than they're getting from these simple TikTok videos and Instagram reels. I think there's like, we have this generalization about the perceptions of people and they go, oh, we've lost all of our ability to concentrate. Like, we don't care. Everyone has a short attention span. I don't think everyone. I think a lot of people, because it's easy. If you leave junk food in front of a lot of people, they will eat it. If you leave healthy food in front of disciplined people, they will say, I don't want the junk food. I'm going to have the eggs and I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going to take vitamins, I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do because I know the benefits of it, because I'm a thinking person.

[Dean Radin]

Right. You may still want the junk food.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

But you're able to override it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. You'll have disciplined thinking. Right. So I think maybe education will move into a realm of being able to understand your own personal psychology, being able to understand the value of discipline and the value of having a structure to the way you think and being able to apply those things. And then also recognizing that whatever this AI is doing is just giving you information, it doesn't make you smarter. It's not giving you more knowledge, it's just giving you data. And you have to then learn how to assimilate that data in an actionable way where you could use it in life.

[Dean Radin]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And we could teach people how to do that.

[Dean Radin]

Maybe I Hope so.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, it seems possible, but again, it's like every single technology that comes around, when television came around, people were terrified that people are just going to stare at the TV all day. And a lot of them did.

[Dean Radin]

They do.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, a lot of them did. But also television, which led to the Internet. Yeah, it's definitely distracting people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also we have more access to information, more of an understanding of so many different things than ever before. And you have the ability to have a conversation like this, a three hour weird conversation about a very esoteric subject.

[Dean Radin]

It's not that weird.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I mean, it's not weird and it's cool.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it's different.

[Joe Rogan]

It's exciting. I mean, for the people that are interested in this kind of conversation, this is like food for them. Like, oh, exciting. You know, I guarantee you a bunch of people will see this and see the description of it in Spotify and go, oh, it's gonna be a good one. You know, because there's a lot of people that have a hunger for interesting things. You know, I'm not a dooms guy when it comes to technology. I have a feeling we're gonna sort it out, but I think it's gonna be a, it's going to be a bit of a battle, a bit of a struggle. It's going to, it's a new thing and you're going to. Exceptional people are always going to exist and there's always going to be people that aren't going to be willing to just give in to whatever this thing is that gives them this crutch and just become a blob that just presses buttons to get information instead of thinking. I think people are always going to want to think. It's part of what's fascinating about being a person is learning new things, expanding your understanding of things and just pretending you do is. It's a party trick. But the real people that, the real fascination is actually learning something that changes your perceptions. People are always going to want that.

[Dean Radin]

Well, I'm optimistic because humanity at least our species is extremely resilient. Yes. So all of us have some percentage of mutations which is part of the resilience. I forget exactly 11% or something like that. Every, every single person, even identical twins. That's why we can survive an asteroid hit or that's why we can survive a mistake that happened somewhere.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

So ultimately I'm optimistic about it.

[Joe Rogan]

I am too. But I mean, I look back at things like, you know, I mean, there's been moments in like, you look at the pyramids. You go, okay, what happened? Where are those folks?

[Dean Radin]

They took off.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I don't know. What do you think happened?

[Dean Radin]

An asteroid or. I don't know. I mean, it could have been the ice age, Right. We still don't know exactly how old the pyramids are.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

So it may have been the ice age, and now they all move to Africa and they're Africans now.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, something. Something definitely happened. Some strange shift. And that's the. The question is, how many times has that happened over the course of human civilization? We want to think of it as being this linear progression from caveman to where we are now. It doesn't seem to be accurate.

[Dean Radin]

No, I don't think so.

[Joe Rogan]

But there's a lot of people along with the same type of people that want to resist the idea. Even if you have data, they don't want to look at it because they think it's nonsense. There's also a perception of that. Like, there's no way people were more advanced, 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years ago than they are now. That's not possible. Well, it kind of is.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not impossible, that's for sure. And there seems to be some very weird evidence in the form of 2,300,000 perfectly cut stones that point to true north, south, east, and west that were put in place by the civilization that just emerged out of nowhere with this ability. Kind of weird. That's kind of weird, too. To pretend it's not and just write it off till people were smart, like. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. Seems like they knew some shit we don't know. They did something we can't explain to this day. Like, I don't know if I would be so confident as to be able to say that there's a linear progression from caveman to us. I don't think that's true.

[Dean Radin]

No. Hardly anything in the natural world is linear, which just scares me.

[Joe Rogan]

If we find fuck it all up right now, and you have a nuclear war and there's only like 50,000 people left, like, how long before we get to this position where we're trying to almost get past this again?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it's like. It's rough adolescence.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Dean Radin]

And so it's true. How long do you need to take? Do you need 100,000 years of a high technology society maybe? Or where are we? Well, like 20 years, 50 years into it, and, yeah, we're having a problem.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's where things get really, really weird when people start talking about UAPs and these whatever these beings are, if they are real, like are they us, Are they us from the future that is coming back to make sure that we don't fuck it up and to sort of hold our hand through this experiment and just watch and observe on the outside in case things go horribly wrong. But allow all these mistakes to take place and allow this progression to take place and just wait it out.

[Dean Radin]

I'm a fan of Hal Puthoff's ultra terrestrial idea that these are not from the future, they're from the past. They just happen to be way more advanced than we thought.

[Joe Rogan]

The past?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like how far in the past?

[Dean Radin]

A million years? More? 100,000? Something like that. It's because you think about convergent evolution. So when I was at unlv, one of the places nearby was a ornithology laboratory, so birds. So I went to the museum and I said, oh, these are very nice penguins here. And the director said, those aren't penguins. Well, what is that? It looks exactly like a penguin. No, those are auks. So there's different birds from the North Pole and the South Pole because of convergent evolution, were shaped to be like this bird. And so, I mean, they looked absolutely identical to me because I don't know that much about penguins anyway. But you know, I said, looks like a penguin. It's not a penguin.

[Joe Rogan]

It evolved independently.

[Dean Radin]

Yes. And so why is it that the aliens that we.

[Joe Rogan]

That's not a penguin.

[Dean Radin]

Probably an auk.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Dean Radin]

I know, it's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah. So we had one of those and had actual. A penguin next to each other in, in the museum. And I thought, well, that, you know, what is that?

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

So a lot of these aliens that people talk about are basically like humans.

[Joe Rogan]

Ox can fly and swim and they're smaller.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. But they're so similar. Even the color.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, the color, the shape.

[Joe Rogan]

The color is crazy. Like what is the benefit of the. The whole thing is very odd.

[Dean Radin]

So why do we have so called Nordic aliens that look a lot like people in Scandinavia? Right, but that would, I mean, you think either come from a planet that is almost exactly Earth, like which is possible, I guess. Or they've already been here. They've been here a long, long time. And the same for many of the other aliens that people talk about. They're humanoid. Well, humanoid is shaped for evolution to be in a certain place because like we're so well shaped by evolution that we can go outside on an average place. And even though there's only a couple of miles of atmosphere. We're perfectly fine.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you aware of those examples of very bizarre heads that they found, skulls they found in places like Peru that don't have the sagittal suture, that have a brain capacity that's 30% larger than ours? There's some weird skeletons.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So Gary Nolan talked about this, I think.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. And there's real examples of it. These aren't theoretical. Like you can find these skulls that have a larger brain capacity and, you know, they've attributed to a real practice of flattening heads, of shaping skulls. That's a real practice. But the question has become, was, did that real practice emerge to mimic a type of creature that was already. That already existed?

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Because these skulls, see if you can find one of them, Jamie. They're very weird looking. Like, they're very weird. They're big. They're bigger than a normal human skull. They have more brain capacity. And it's an elongated shape. It's a different shape. This is not like a science fiction theory. This is not like an artist rendition. This is an actual real skull that doesn't have the sagittal suture. No, no, that's the alien things. These are, that's, that's those, those monstera. That's that thing that a lot of people think is a fraud skulls they were talking about. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's actually elongated skulls that they found. Elongated. Just don't pull in Tridactyl mummy, just put in elongated skull. No sagittal suture. There you go. Like that, that one right there. Like. What the fuck is that? That does not look like a person. That is a real skull.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So some of that is shaping. Sure, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Some of it, Some of these are. But the ones without the sagittal suture are really weird. Yeah. Because that's a thing that all human babies have. Because as your brain grows and your head grows, your, you know, your, your brain, your skull is kind of malleable. That doesn't have it. And some of these that they found actually have more brain capacity, so the shaping of it wouldn't change the brain capacity. So some of them do have that sagittal crest, that sagittal suture, but some of them don't. And that one that you showed up there, I hope that's not AI. That one doesn't. I think that's real hard to see. Could be, could be. But it's been described by people who have examined them as being different. There's also the Positioning of where it connects with the spine is different. Oh, Sarah, that goes right there. Where the spinal column enters. The bottom of the skull is very much further back than normal. A genetic adaptation or a different kind of person? Yep, a different kind of person that coexisted. Like, look at that one right there, Jamie. The Evuchersron. Click on that. That's crazy. Like that is really crazy. That's a replica. Wild looking, but that's a replica. So what's the real one? The real one is the one that you showed that has Instagram on it. That's a real one. Like that is kind of bananas.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And if that's not done through forming of the skull and pushing the skull into the new shape, what is it? And were they doing that because they were trying to mimic something that was superior to them. And that's where it gets weird. Like those real elongated skulls. Inca museum up there. Right above your cursor. Yeah, to the left. Right there. That's crazy looking, man. That's really crazy looking. And again, that one doesn't seem to have that sagittal suture. Neither does that one down there that says 118. They're fucking strange. So if that was an actual different kind of human being that existed along with us. God, that explains a lot.

[Dean Radin]

Well, they're not here anymore, right? Unless they're ultra terrestrials and they're living in the bottom of the ocean.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? I don't know about that. But if that's them, who knows? I mean, you could get to a point where a civilization becomes so advanced that the biological entities aren't necessary anymore. And then that would explain why they could exist at the bottom of the ocean, why they could exist with no oxygen, why they could they no longer become dependent upon their environment to survive.

[Dean Radin]

They might have creative environments. Right, like the movie. There was a movie? I forget the name now.

[Joe Rogan]

What was the premise?

[Dean Radin]

It was that there's a ship and there's like a missing submarine and so they, they dive down to it, but then they see lights coming up.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, the abyss.

[Dean Radin]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that was a great movie. Yeah, that was a good one. Yeah. Well, there's always been stories about, I mean, Tim Burchette, the congressman, came on this podcast and was talking about how there's five different locations in the deep ocean that they're aware of activity, that things have happened there. They continue to happen. But if you were going to study Earth, if you, if you had to be like local, like where would you go? I mean, if you can come here from another dimension, another galaxy or wherever you're coming from, you'd probably go in the ocean. You'd have. I mean, they've observed these trans medium crafts. They're able to fly and go into the water. Isn't that orc, that Auk thing? Isn't that kind of transmedium? It flies, swims?

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, it could be an alien. It's an alien form of a penguin.

[Joe Rogan]

But it is. At a certain point in time, you would imagine if we could get far more advanced than we are now and we found out about a society that is at a stage where we are currently. For sure, we'd go visit, for sure. We would observe. And we would also probably try to stop nuclear war.

[Dean Radin]

It is an interesting question because the Prime Directive in Star Trek is you don't mess with them. Right, right. But they always do.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. Well, Star Trek is. They didn't even have the Internet. They had walkie talkies. Kirk out.

[Dean Radin]

Remember that thing? No, they had the communicator thing. So we don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm talking about the Next Generation.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, we don't know how that worked.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I'm talking about the original.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, no, the original. Original is pretty good, though.

[Joe Rogan]

Really good.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Especially when you think about it was like the 19 what, 60s when it came out.

[Dean Radin]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So part of my, my personal mission was to make Star Trek real. That's, that's like.

[Joe Rogan]

It's including beaming people up.

[Dean Radin]

Oh, no, it's like the Vulcan, the most rational creature on there, was the one who could do the mind meld.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Dean Radin]

That's why I was thinking. Yeah, okay. An advanced species, this stuff is taken for granted.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Dean Radin]

That's where my vision is, seeing. Yeah. And so that advanced species may be us, might need a little evolutionary push with genetics, but, yeah, we could do that too.

[Joe Rogan]

So in this concept of the ultra terrestrial, that these things have come from the past, like, how are they here?

[Dean Radin]

They've always been here.

[Joe Rogan]

They've always been here. They just exist. But they exist in a different way.

[Dean Radin]

Well, so imagine, even given current technology, if there was another ice age coming, and we may have a thousand years to prepare, would we be smart enough to do that? I don't know. Could we do it? Yes, we probably could.

[Joe Rogan]

Boy.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. And then, so another thousand years passes and you're below ground somewhere, and then the cavemen who are beginning, well, do we interact with them or not? Well, it's an interesting question. Like, we don't want to get involved in all that mess because we Sort

[Joe Rogan]

of like how we don't visit North Sentinel island.

[Dean Radin]

Maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

You know those people that live, the uncontacted tribe.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like you're literally not allowed to go there.

[Dean Radin]

Let them develop the way they shall develop. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, I can, I can. I could accept that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, if it turns out that there is some activity, that there are some things that we can't explain that are happening from deep in the ocean, we're going to have to come up with some sort of an explanation. If that is an actual intelligent species, intelligent life form, something, whatever it is, there's got to be some explanation for that. So the ultra terrestrial one is just as good.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah, there's an explanation for everything. The question is, a, are we smart enough to figure it out and B, how long will it take? And both of those are complete unknowns. But that's. I mean, that's yet another reason why I like the kind of work that I do, that you need to have very high tolerance for ambiguity, of which I do. Like, I'm okay with not knowing a lot of basically everything. I know enough to be able to be dangerous, but otherwise I don't mind that. I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I am very thankful that people like you are out there because if you weren't out there doing this work and you weren't out there expanding on this, I mean, it's really fascinating if something like this does emerge, it would change the human race. And think about the small amount of people that are involved in this research.

[Dean Radin]

Tiny, kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

Kind of crazy. Yeah, It's a huge responsibility you have in a lot of ways.

[Dean Radin]

Well, fortunately, I also enjoy it. So, I mean, I'm having fun while I'm doing this because otherwise I think I would have chosen some other door. I mean, I had plenty of opportunities to work with golden handcuffs somewhere. But I get bored easily. And this is the one area where I have never gotten bored.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm very thankful. Thank you for being here, too. And tell everybody where they get. Did you do an audio version of this book?

[Dean Radin]

I have an actor do it because I don't want anybody to have to suffer with 12 hours of my voice because it won't last that long. Yeah, so there. There's an actor that does it is very, very good. And so, yeah, this is. There's one other story I want to say that's in the book. So this is a synchronicity which again, gave me the idea that we don't know the limits of what we're Dealing with which is important. So I had mentioned that after interval we started a non profit. This was called Boundary Institute. It was in Silicon Valley. We found an office park in Los Altos, which is just outside of Silicon Valley. And so we found a space. We liked it. We decided to get that, so that's where our new place would be. So I was close enough to where I live, so I was able to walk to work. I always walked a certain way. One day I decided to walk a different way and I go past another office called SciQuest Inc. PSI Quest Inc. And I thought, that's an interesting coincidence because we're doing sci research and now we have SciQuest Inc. We thought it was Personnel Services Incorporated something. We didn't know what it was. We thought that was funny. About three weeks go by and I decided to walk a different way to work. I'm going through this office place different ways and I notice that right next to our office is something with a tiny little sign that says SciQuest Labs. And so now we're thinking, what does a Personnel Services thing need with a laboratory? So I look through the mini blinds, there's nobody in there. So now I'm determined to find out, what are you guys doing? So every day over the next couple of weeks, I go past that place and knock on the door. And I'm looking through the blinds, there's nobody there. Finally one day I see somebody in there, knock on the door, and I'm going to say, hello, my name is. The door opens, the guy's jaw drops before I could say my name. And he says, dean Radin. And now I'm thinking, well, I have never seen you before. I don't know who you are. How do you know who I am? So he says, who says his name? And I said, well, what are you doing here? I'm doing what you're doing. What do you think we're doing? Cybersearch. Parapsychology. Like what you're doing. So I had to sit down at that point because we knew everybody in the world who's doing this. There's only like 40 of us around the world in maybe five or six different locations. Here is a psy research laboratory in Silicon Valley that no one has ever heard about before. And so I said, well, how did you know who I was? Even if you knew, you know, we had nothing in our door that said it was Cybersearch. It said Boundary Institute. He said, I was looking to contact you because I want you to be on my board of directors. But I didn't know where you were and I didn't know how to contact you. So I opened the door and there I am. So I said, well, what were you doing? He was doing an exercise called Yoga Nidra, which is the yoga of sleep, but there's a magical element to it as well. So over a course of 24 hours, for three hours he was awake three hours. He sleeps back and forth over the course of 24 hours while awake, he's picturing that I show up. And so I opened the door and that's why his jaw dropped, because at that point he was awake, he was walking around, but I showed up and he was trying to make me show up. So in a sense, he manifested me. Now I think I have free will. Like we, you know, we freely chose that office next door. I freely went to the door, I freely did everything, but apparently was being pulled by him. So. Well, that was strange. And so I said, well, so how are you doing this? What are you doing? And so he gave me a tour of his laboratory. That's when my jaw dropped because what I had been doing adjacent wall next to his, without knowing what's going over there on a whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind of chair that we wanted in a special shielded room and equipment and everything on the whiteboard. That's what he had. The other side of that wall is what he had in his laboratory.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So it's like a four part synchronicity where I was drawing to me what I wanted. I didn't know it was the other side of the wall, but I was drawing it into existence. He was at the same time drawing me. We had the same intentions draw each other essentially. And we literally got pulled into the same location at the same time.

[Joe Rogan]

That's incredible.

[Dean Radin]

Yeah. So it was so incredible that I told the other guys in our institute and in a sense, they understood what was happening because they saw the same laboratory and stuff. After a while, we never talked about it again. It was so bizarre and so magical in a sense that we all thought we were doing things of our own free will, but. But apparently not. So I started looking into Yoga Nidra, the magical side of it. It's all about intention, focused intention in a non ordinary state. And it is literally a magical practice out of the yogic tradition. So, yeah, another reason why I'm writing about the science of magic, the real magic, and showing how a lot of the science that we know now actually overlaps. Wow. It's just. It's not at the level of what you would get in Harry Potter, but nevertheless, a lot of it is real.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you for telling that story. That's awesome. Thank you for being here, too. This is really exciting. I really enjoyed it very much. Thank you. So the book, the Science of Magic.

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Available everywhere. Thank you.

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

This is for me.

[Dean Radin]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I got a copy. All right. Thank you very much. This is really, really, really fun.

[Dean Radin]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's do it again. I'm excited to hear where you go with this stuff.

[Dean Radin]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

All right.

[Dean Radin]

Maybe next time I'll bring that nose spray.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's do it. Bring it. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody.