#2531 - Forrest Galante

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2531 – Forrest Galante

Date: July 28, 2026
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Forrest Galante (wildlife biologist, conservationist, adventurer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into wildlife mysteries, cryptozoology, animal intelligence, conservation science, and the wild unpredictability of both nature and human behavior. Joe and Forrest riff on creatures rumored or proven to exist, brain trauma in sports, bizarre evolutionary adaptations, how pop science sometimes hinders real conservation, the broken state of academic research, and plenty of hilarious, awe-inspiring, or hair-raising animal tales. This conversation blends the wonder of the animal kingdom with sharp critiques of science and society, all in the show’s trademark irreverent, curious style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Black Panthers, Melanism, & Wildlife Myths

• [00:16–01:39]
  Forrest and Joe discuss the recurring phenomenon of “black panther” sightings in the US, noting that while melanism (the genetic trait that makes animals black) occurs in jaguars and leopards, there have never been confirmed melanistic mountain lions.
  • “There's never been a melanistic mountain lion. Nobody's ever seen one, ever.” – Joe Rogan [00:31]
• These stories highlight human fascination with rare, mysterious animals—what’s different is what people desire.

2. Why We Love Cryptids (Bigfoot, Thylacine, etc.)

• [01:54–02:00], [32:44–34:50], [151:02–152:06]
  Interest in cryptids is part of a larger curiosity about the unknown. Even dubious evidence (e.g., Bigfoot’s legacy, AI-generated hoaxes) still excites.
  • “Isn't it funny that we want it to be different? Because just a mountain lion itself is amazing.” – Forrest Galante [01:39]
  • Thylacine (Tasmanian tiger): Forrest monitors faint leads but admits hope is fading.
    • “It feels like the legends are getting fewer and further between...almost over generational time it's disappearing.” – Forrest [33:18]
  • Some cryptids, like the Asian unicorn (saola), turned out to be real.

3. Orca, Elephant, and Animal Intelligence

• [02:03–03:21], [24:21–27:26], [97:25–99:25]
  • Orcas’ advanced languages, cultural behaviors, and lack of wild aggression toward humans are explored, contrasted with human-centric ideas of intelligence.
  • Spectacular stories: orcas exploding sunfish; Forrest’s personal experience with wild orcas off Baja, Mexico.
    • “We have gorillas that are cooler than Bigfoot.” – Joe Rogan [02:00]
    • Forrest rescues elephants in India; their trunk use demonstrates complex problem-solving.

4. Animal Suffering, Conservation, & Humanity's Impact

• [23:49–30:58], [99:25–102:12], [164:50–168:46]
  • Discussion of elephant injuries from logging, animal deformities (e.g., antelope horn growing into skulls), and animal rescue work at the world’s largest wildlife hospital in India.
  • Critique of the “anti-zoo” movement: Forrest defends well-run, conservation-focused zoos for their education and species preservation roles.
    • “There's so much good that animals in captivity have done, saving species, keeping things alive, connecting kids to nature.” – Forrest [99:44]

5. Evolutionary Adaptation, Genetics & Human Parallels

• [11:14–13:13], [32:09–35:56], [101:00–103:41], [147:16–148:10]
  • Evolution shapes both humans and animals; physical and behavioral traits selected for survival.
    • Different populations (e.g., Samoans, Icelandic strongmen, African Americans) reflect natural selection in action.
  • Wolf genetics: Black fur in wild wolves comes from gene introgression from domestic dogs.
    • “Black coat color in North American wolves comes from mutation in the K locus...the mutation originated in dogs and moved into wolves through hybridization, not the other way around.” – Jamie reading AI answer [102:12]

6. Sports, Brain Trauma & Behavior

• [04:36–08:51]
  • Rugby, NFL, UFC: They compare head trauma across sports; sub-concussive trauma is discussed, and intriguing genetic predispositions for injury (APOE4 gene).
    • “I've had too much brain damage to know too much about brain. No, I'm just kidding.” – Forrest [05:30]
    • Jet ski riders, soccer players, and even headbangers can suffer similar brain injuries.

7. AI, Fake Animal Videos & Disinformation

• [16:09–18:13], [60:08–62:25]
  • Social media, Instagram, and especially AI-generated animal content are rapidly blurring the lines between reality and fabrication—sometimes even fooling the experts.
    • “I can...90% I can tell, but there's a 10% where I can't tell if it's AI or real, or...and I'm looking at it going, that behavior is wrong, so it has to be AI.” – Forrest [60:33]

8. Conservation Science: Broken Incentives & Solutions

• [164:50–168:46]
  • Forrest criticizes academia’s perverse incentives to “speciate” for grant money rather than focusing on results, e.g., more animals after intervention = success.
    • “Conservation is incredibly easy to measure. Are there animals now after your work? Are there more?” – Forrest [166:29]

9. Weaponizing Nature: Animal Spies, Diseases, & Conspiracies

• [84:43–88:58], [91:26–92:19]
  • The US and others have used cats, dolphins, whales, beetles, and even ticks for espionage or weaponization.
    • “Acoustic Kitty was a Central Intelligence Agency project...use cats to spy on the Kremlin.” — Jamie [85:18]
  • Plum Island, Lyme Disease, and the engineered meat allergies—conspiracy theories or credible biowarfare threats?
    • “They were absolutely doing gain of function research on ticks.” – Joe [82:03]

10. Human Animal: Community, Cooperation, & The Price of Innovation

• [122:12–124:36]
  • Joe and Forrest muse on competition vs cooperation, noting that while great technological advances require reward (and sometimes capitalistic exploitation), there’s a need for regulatory balance.

11. Mystery Moon, Conspiracies, & Science Satire

• [156:03–161:42]
  • Frank discourse about “the moon is fake” theories, space nerds, and how these wacky ideas become a kind of nerdy social club reminiscent of cryptid hunters.
    • “The panda fake has nothing on the moon being fake.” – Joe [156:04]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why rare things fascinate us:
  “Whatever's different and rare is what people just are like, I want that one thing.” – Forrest [01:49]

• Orca intelligence:
  “It was me to you from orcas...they did two circles around us, like, what are these things? Then were just like, meh, boring. And kept swimming.” – Forrest [03:00]

• On social media and animal AI:
  “It's so hard...Even if you watch an educational one where you're like, wow, that was amazing. You barely retain that information because it's such a quick thing.” – Forrest [15:45]

• On broken conservation science:
  “You have to just publish something to show that you are accomplishing something to then pull from that tiny little pool of money. So now...all fighting...because the resource pool is so small.” – Forrest [165:13] “Are there animals now? After your work, are there more?...That's all conservation is.” – Forrest [166:29]

• On domesticated animal genetics:
  “That is what it is. That was at one point in time a wolf. And somehow or another, we engineered it down to a dog that's adorable and just wants to cuddle with you.” – Joe [57:54]

• On animal suffering:
  “It's a really, really cool place and we get to do some fun stuff. So I was...privileged to be part of those elephant rescues. Really emotional when you see an animal, like an elephant that has so much, like, intelligence, look you in the eye and be like, I'm in so much pain. And then you, like, start to relieve it. It's cool.” – Forrest [24:45]

• On animal intelligence and captivity:
  “In the future we're gonna look back at that the way people today look back at slavery.” – Joe (on keeping orcas in aquariums) [97:01]

---

Timestamps for Top Segments

• Black Panther/Melanism Myth: 00:16–01:39
• Orca & Animal Intelligence: 02:03–03:21, 24:21–27:26, 97:25–99:25
• Rugby, Jet Skiers, & Brain Damage: 04:36–08:51
• Conservation Science Critique: 164:50–168:46
• Thylacine / Wildlife Legend Fading: 32:44–34:50
• AI Animal Hoaxes: 60:08–62:25
• Cryptids/Bigfoot/Sloth Bear: 151:02–153:00
• Weaponized Animals & Espionage: 84:43–88:58, 91:26–92:19
• “Moon is Fake” Theory: 156:03–161:42
• Notable Rescue Story—Elephants: 21:44–27:26

---

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in weaving humor and awe for the natural world with a razor sharp eye for scientific and societal absurdity. Forrest Galante’s tales of hands-on wildlife rescue, animal oddities, mystifying evolutionary adaptations, and the pitfalls of conservation politics pair perfectly with Joe’s relentless curiosity and skepticism.

As they chase Bigfoot myths, theorize about weaponized ticks and existential oddities like “the moon is fake,” the conversation elegantly returns to a core message: the natural world is stranger, more beautiful, and more complex than we dare assume—and our best hope for saving it is honest, passionate engagement.

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For more:

• Forrest Galante’s YouTube channel
• Forrest’s Shark Week special: “Alien Sharks: Untamed America”
• JRE clips channel for highlights

(Summary by AI—episode clock times MMA:ss format. Please cite and attribute if quoting sections.)

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan Podcast.

[B]

Check it out.

[A]

The Joe Rogan Experience. Join my day Joe Rogan Podcast. By night. All day,

[B]

my friend.

[C]

Joe, it's good to see you, man.

[A]

Bro, it's good to see you.

[C]

So I've been sending you stuff because, like, we've been. I knew that you were coming on, and I sent you that one. That video of the guy who got a trail cam photo of a black panther.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

So is that just a melanistic mountain lion? What is that?

[A]

It's a great question. There's never been a melanistic mountain lion. Nobody's ever seen one, ever? Never hit one with a car, never born, one. Captivity, nothing.

[C]

Whoa.

[A]

So mountain lions, by definition, pumas, you know, whatever you want to call them. There's never been a black one ever, but every year. I mean, I got a buddy in Florida, swears blind that he's seen a black mountain lion in his backyard. And yet that photo that you sent me, that photo circulates, like, once every three years.

[C]

It's bullshit.

[A]

It's bullshit. It's a real photo, but it's a trail cam photo. Oh, it wasn't this one, but.

[C]

Well, that's. I think that's the first one. And then there's another one with the cat. Gets, like, right up to the lens. Yeah, that one.

[A]

So that photo is a real. I want to say jaguar. It's hard to tell, but either jaguar or black leopard, both of which do become melanistic, and you can tell that because you can see the spots barely, like the rosettes. So all these melanistic cats, like jags and leopards that do get melanistic, they still have those rosettes under the black coat. Yeah. So not a mountain lion.

[C]

Too bad.

[A]

I know. It's such a bummer one day if somebody finds one. That'll be, like, a huge thing, scientifically.

[C]

Isn't it funny that we want it to be different? Because just a mountain lion itself is amazing. I mean, if they were all black and there was, like, a tan mountain lion, be like, somebody saw a tan mountain lion.

[A]

100%. It's like, whatever's different and rare is what people just are like, I want that one thing.

[C]

I've always said that about Bigfoot. Yeah, Bigfoot is kind of interesting, but not as interesting as an orca.

[A]

100%. Right. Like, we have gorillas that are cooler than Bigfoots.

[C]

Well, orcas in particular, because they have languages that we can't decipher.

[A]

Languages, specialized diets, some kind. Do you know, I'm sure You know us can't even talk to each other, right? Yeah, it's unbelievable. Like, it's the same as if you or I went to India or Africa and it's like we can't communicate. We don't eat the same food, we look different. And yet to us, an orca is an orca, right? Yeah.

[C]

And super smart and huge brains and don't kill people for some strange reason, ever. Except when they're in captivity.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Which is so crazy. I did a thing in Baja, Mexico, maybe three years ago where we were just cruising on this little ponga, this little fishing boat, and we saw these orcas go by. And now people seem to be doing it a lot, but at the time it was like nobody had really just tried this. And this was a transient population, which means they primarily eat seals and sea lions, not the stingray eaters. And so we're like, it, let's just go. And we, like, ran the boat up ahead and jumped in and the orcas came up and the bull never came out. So, you know, the bull has a huge fin, like, he's the biggest, like the. The dominant protector of the pod. But the cows and their babies came up and the boat, like, drifted away. And me and my buddy Mike and they just circled us, like just looking at us with their big eyeballs. And it was me to you from orcas. And they, they did like two. Two circles around us, like, what are these things? Then we're just like, meh, boring. And kept swimming.

[C]

They must know, right? If they're that intelligent and they have language and they communicate, they must know what a person is, right? I think, I think.

[A]

Oh, dude. I saw the guy that filmed this. This is so crazy.

[C]

Orca headbutts a sunfish so hard, it explodes.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

Turns into pieces. So this is a newly documented behavior. Just in the last maybe six months, they've found that orcas will literally explode fish from impact, whether it's a game or what. But they're. They're finding that this is not the first time this is done. They're doing this. They're starting to just explode these fish on impact, just because how are they doing that?

[C]

Like, how. How fast are they going?

[A]

I do not know the answer to that, but it's impressive.

[C]

I would have never imagined that that would actually be possible. Right. Like, how fast can you.

[B]

I'm trying. Like, what does the starfish look is

[A]

like flat, like a stingray, A sunfish. It's like a mola mola. Those ocean Sunfish with the big goose finish.

[C]

They're pretty huge.

[A]

£600. They get huge.

[C]

How do you think? Literally turned to dust, dude.

[A]

I think. I think those are the orca equivalents of like a redneck that wants to hit a turtle on the road. And they're just like, we're bored. Let's explode it.

[C]

Or those guys that do that. Have you seen that game? Well, it's not game, but it's, I guess, whatever. It is an activity where these guys just run at each other full blast, dude.

[A]

Rnc. Run Nation. I love that. It's one of my favorite things. I'm such a huge fan. I love it, dude, because I played rugby, so it's rugby boys that are doing it, right? It's like an Oklahoma drill, except for rugby guys. And that's a drill that when I was playing rugby, we used to do all the time.

[C]

Just run at each other.

[A]

You just run it. It's my favorite. Run Nation. Rnc. It's my favorite thing. I watch every video. Look at these guys.

[C]

I would have never get. They both just went unconscious. They both went. Well, that guy's. That guy's fine.

[A]

I'm such a.

[C]

But I've seen it where they both get unconscious.

[A]

I want to bring these guys to the US and see how they stack up against, like NFL linebackers.

[C]

Jesus Christ. They both headbutted each other. Dude.

[A]

Dude, you love fight sports. What are you talking about?

[C]

Not a fight sport. This is just a fan. Oh, that's so silly. Oh, I don't want to do it, to be clear. Crazy that you like that I know too much about brain damage. And you should too, if you like rugby.

[A]

I've had too much brain damage to know too much about brain. No, I'm just kidding.

[C]

But how long did you play rugby for?

[A]

Well, I grew up in Zimbabwe and so, like Southern Africa. Rugby is life, right? So it's like probably deep south football kind of culture. So I still play, believe it or not. Except now I play very intermittently because one game puts me out for a week.

[C]

Have you ever got your brain examined?

[A]

Uh, no, I have not. But I've only had one concussion in my life, so I think I'm okay.

[C]

Oh, that's silly because you. You guarantee you'd have sub concussive trauma.

[A]

What is sub concussive trauma?

[C]

Well, you. Where you don't go unconscious, but you get rattled and then you have some brain damage.

[A]

You're probably right.

[C]

Yeah, Soccer players get it.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. Soccer players get. Yeah, yeah. Chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Yeah, that's soccer players get it.

[A]

I did not know that.

[C]

Heading the ball.

[A]

So is that. And you know a lot about ufc. Is that brain trauma worse than UFC type trauma?

[C]

Well, it's all brain trauma, and it's dependent upon many factors. It's dependent upon how many times you've been hit. And also, there's a gene variation. It's APOE 4. Is that what it is? I think so, yeah. If you have this one particular gene, it makes you more susceptible to CTE for some reason.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, because a concussion is when your brain sort of impacts against your skull, Is that right?

[C]

There's that. And I mean, I think it's also. It's not just that. It's like, if you get hit in the neck, you can get a concussion also. Yeah. Also, a lot of people don't realize you can get a concussion from getting hit in the body.

[A]

Really? How does that work?

[C]

Like, rattles get rattled. Yeah. Also, another group of people that seem to get CTE are people who ride jet skis.

[A]

That's wild. Oh, how does that work?

[C]

Well, my friend Mark Gordon, he's a doctor who specializes in traumatic brain injuries and treating football players, soldiers, and he's treated some fighters as well. He said that any repeated stress, any banging, anything like that. Head banging, like, if you're a headbang.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you're probably gonna get brain damage.

[A]

No way.

[C]

Yeah. Legitimate brain damage. Like, I can't remember what I was doing five seconds ago. Where's my keys? I forget what I'm talking about mid sentence.

[A]

You're scaring me here. These are all things I enjoy doing.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

I enjoy running straight at people full blast. Yeah. I just. Those guys are animals. They're tough guys, no doubt about it.

[A]

And those Pacific Islanders, like, because those are the guys that are doing it primarily, right. Like, they play rugby league and stuff. They're built different.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like, they're so hard, it's insane.

[C]

Do you remember David Tua?

[A]

No, I'm not.

[C]

David Tua was a heavyweight boxer back in the day who was, like, one of the most ferocious guys that ever fought in boxing. And it just. Just built like. Like a. Your prototypical island warrior guy. Yeah, just. Yeah, that's David.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Just a tank.

[A]

You don't want to run it at that guy, I'm telling you. What?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, just a monster. Knock people out. And he knocked out John Ruiz, like, famously in the first round. And like, something like 30 seconds or something like, that was crazy.

[A]

Different breed.

[C]

Man, crazy left hook. Yeah, that kind of guy. I mean, we've got a bunch of Mark Hunt, who's a famous kickboxer. There's another guy built like that. Yeah, just. Just wide as a barn.

[A]

There's like no waste. It's just like a brick. Solid as a rock.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Again playing rugby. I played rugby against guys like that and it was the worst.

[C]

Well, those are the dudes that have the balls to get in a little tiny boat and make it across the

[A]

ocean and then kick your ass.

[C]

That's what it is really. I mean, you think about it like only the super robust survived, right? So it's like nature just weeding out any possible weakness. Only the strongest human beings made it. This episode is brought to you by Dodge. I've recently had the chance to get behind the wheel of the new gas powered Dodge Charger Scat Pack. And it reminds me how much I love cars that give you an adrenaline rush the second you hit the gas. First thing that got me was the sound of the performance exhaust. It sounds awesome. Paired with a twin turbo six pack, gas engine four. Mind blowing. I. I love cars that sound like that. And then I tried launch control. It's fantastic. You feel all 550 horsepower. Thing goes from 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds with a top speed of 177 miles an hour. And it's comfortable. It's nice to drive. Another cool thing. You don't have to choose between control and performance. You got all wheel drive when you want the grip, but you can switch it to rear wheel mode and just have fun with it. You can totally get why people are so excited about this car. I loved it. Check out the new Dodge Charger Scat pack. Learn [e-mail] Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. This episode is brought to you by Visible. It's officially summer folks and boy what a summer we are having. It feels like one of those good old fashioned summers. We just want to enjoy every moment and keep up with the action. Your best companion this summer, Visible Wireless. Visible gives you unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. So you can make this the summer of fun and savings. Visible is more than just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to always keep you connected with no contract to tie you down. Switch [e-mail] plan start at $25 a month or get our premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo Code Rogan terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[A]

Absolute natural selection. Similar to the African Americans that we have in North America. Like, those are the strongest, best guys that came over here.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And that's why they're all the most incredible athletes about all. But you know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah, I know what you say. Yeah, there's. I mean it's. And also like, when you look at like guys from Iceland. Strongmen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So how many strongmen are from Iceland? Well, how many fucking Vikings are from Iceland? Like, let's look at. Yeah, right. It's weird when you think about it that like nature finds its way.

[A]

It's the same thing. It's like we think we're so different and above like animals and stuff, it's natural selection. We just bring the biggest, the best and the strongest into some area. Whether that's Vikings colonizing Iceland or. Or the Samoans on their islands or whatever it happens to be. And you're just like, well, here's a superior population because we all, the biggest, best and strongest have made it and all of the weakest have died off.

[C]

Is that weird? Like you as a guy who studies wildlife biology, isn't it weird that we want to think of ourselves as being a different thing? Like we are clearly not.

[A]

We're not. We're not even at the top. That's the thing that people never understand intellectually. We are obviously look at what we've built. But like we're not even. We don't even sit at the top of the food chain.

[C]

But we kind of do because we kill everything else if we want to.

[A]

Well, because.

[C]

Yeah, well, not even our brains really. It's other people's brains that invented guns. Like, it has nothing to do with you and me.

[B]

True.

[A]

No.

[C]

That's such interesting. Is like our brains are our evolutionary advantage. It transfers over to people that don't have good genetics. Yeah, right. Like, because you could be built like a bag of. Like a literal bag of. And you can kill a grizzly bear with a rifle.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Kind of nuts, right?

[A]

It's crazy.

[C]

You just be sitting there on a ridge with a scope and boom. And you kill a 1200 pound Kodiak brown bear.

[A]

Because all of our biological energy goes into this thing. Instead of being physically big or intimidating or any of those other things, we

[C]

can transfer what we figured out onto other people. Which is no other animals ever figured out how to do that.

[A]

Nope. Isn't that crazy?

[C]

Wild? Yeah, it's really wild.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

It's. When you think about it, it's like, what? What if you were studying us? If you were coming from another planet and you were studying us, you'd be like, wow, this one animal is weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This one. This one's doing something different.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

But they would still look at us and go, oh, well, they're definitely animals. Like, look at them.

[A]

Oh, yeah. If you looked at the earth from an Earth shot, you'd look at what we've done and be like, this is the top animal. But they're parasitic and colonizing the whole planet and changing things and manipulating things, whereas all the other animals are just getting by.

[C]

Yeah. If we found out that there were actual visiting aliens, that there was actual intelligent life from somewhere else visiting us, I think there are. A lot of us would probably be like, why didn't you help? Yeah, right. Why didn't you come along and say, hey, cut the shit?

[A]

It reminds me of the. I don't know. Did you watch south park ever?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

There was an old south park episode where Earth was like a reality show. And it's like, let's see who's getting along this week. The zebras are fighting with the giraffes and the people are doing this. And it's like, we're just like a reality show for the universe where you just put a bunch of species. We're like a Big Brother situation.

[C]

Well, we are kind of that for us. Oh, we are. That's what a reality show is. A reality show for us is the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, Lindsey Graham, did he die in a rocket accident or did he die. Was he poisoned by Russia? Let's tune in to Twitter and find out. You know what I mean?

[A]

Exactly, man. It's hilarious.

[B]

We are.

[C]

We are locked in on whatever the fuck is happening all over the world all at once. And that's one of the weird things about social media now, is that we're constantly being inundated with new things to occupy our attention.

[A]

And, you know, we have no attention span to watch anything for more than five seconds.

[C]

But yet, at the same time, this is the rise of podcasts.

[A]

Yeah. Which are long form. Right.

[C]

So it's clear that that's not really the case with everybody. There's enough people that are interested in actual fascinating things and have an attention span. It's just like we're all susceptible to the brain rot that comes with just scrolling.

[A]

It's so hard. Not like I've tried to make conscious decisions because, you know, you can imagine what my Instagram Feed looks like. Right. It's animal after animal. Half of its AI now, whatever. And I still try and make a conscious decision to not look at it. And I find myself just reaching for my phone and doing this. It's just. We're wired into it now. Dopamine hits crazy.

[C]

And it's not even really rewarding, which is really terrifying to me because it's not something that's like, really feels great.

[A]

And you barely retain the information. Like, even if you watch an educational one where you're like, wow, that was amazing. You barely retain that information because it's such a quick thing until you're on to the next one, at least for me.

[C]

Yeah, there's a little bit of that in there for sure. But I think I've gotten a pretty good algorithm lately, so. Lately, for whatever reason, my algorithm has been really excellent. It's really dialed in where I'm only getting, like, really fascinating things. A couple of weeks.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, it's been great.

[A]

That's way better.

[C]

And then every now and then, some comes on. I just skip through it real quick and I'm like, gotta keep this algorithm going good.

[A]

Or you text me a Bigfoot AI thing.

[C]

Bigfoot buds are so silly. They're so bad. They're so silly. You actually texted me the Bigfoot one.

[A]

Well, it was the same guy. You. You said the same guy. I texted you back. I was like, I don't think so, dude. He's like, this guy raised a baby Bigfoot in secrecy for 10 years.

[B]

So bad.

[A]

It's so bad.

[C]

So obvious. Is like a shitty AI photograph of, like, like a blurry Polaroid photograph.

[A]

And then you read the comments, and there's like 400 people going like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. And you're like, come on.

[C]

Oh, dude. Duncan and I, back in the day, like in 2012 or 11, whatever it was when I did that sci fi show, Joe Rogan questions, everything. We hung out with Bigfoot people.

[A]

We.

[C]

We actually went Bigfoot hunting.

[A]

No way.

[C]

Oh, yeah, we hung. Yeah, we were with them for a couple days.

[A]

How was that?

[C]

In the woods? The Pacific Northwest. It's kind of sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because the way I describe it, I always said, here's what you don't find when you go looking for Bigfoot. Black people. You're more likely to find Bigfoot than you are black people looking for Bigfoot.

[A]

It's just such a crazy, white, unfuckable

[C]

white guys out in the woods, staring

[A]

at shadows, like, making something out of nothing. Right? Look at that leaf. It must have been here.

[C]

It's just unfuckable. Gu. Guys, it's really what it is. It's. It's. Unfortunately, that's really what it is. It's not that there's not something to the story, because I think there is something to the story. Yeah, I think it's an old story.

[A]

Well, it dates all the way back to Native Americans, right?

[C]

Well, not just that. There's how many we. We looked this up before, like how many different names there are, and I think it was more than 50 different Native American.

[A]

Yeah, that looks great.

[C]

This guy was dead big, by the way. You imagine sitting that close to that thing, how bad that was? Smell.

[A]

Yeah, it's revolting.

[C]

I mean, that thing's been dead for who knows how long and this guy's just hanging out.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Take your picture. How do I look?

[B]

Side. Fun fact. This guy was on your mom's house like 12 years ago.

[C]

Was he?

[B]

Yeah. Is he like a fun guy On Instagram is a dog trainer.

[A]

That's hilarious.

[B]

Tom found his videos a long time ago and they brought him in to do a podcast with them and I just.

[C]

I know who this guy is. No way.

[B]

I don't know. I got in a Bigfoot. He has Bigfoot's body.

[C]

How bad that looks?

[A]

It's so bad, dude. Oh my God, look at these.

[C]

Look at that.

[A]

Look at the smile.

[B]

I mean, he could be just a full on satirical troll.

[C]

Oh, he's sawing into it. Look at this. It's a cake. It's gonna turn out. It's gonna be like cake. Oh my God, he saw it into it. Open it up, Tom. Oh, he found a foot.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Very real.

[C]

Very real. Looking for.

[A]

Also, if you can't trust a guy in overalls with no shirt, who can you trust?

[C]

The way guys are in great shape for his age, he is looks. Looks ripped out there, lifting up fake Bigfoot all day.

[A]

It's like they're heavy.

[C]

I think there was. I mean, obviously we know the Gigantopithecus was real, but we were reading about this the other day that it seems like Gigantopithecus wasn't bipedal and that there was some dispute as to whether or not it was bipedal, but apparently there are some biologists that are saying no, it was most likely walked around like an orangutan.

[A]

Interesting. Just, Just. Oh, wow.

[C]

Just a huge orangutan looking thing, huh?

[A]

No, I've heard of it. I didn't know that it wasn't Bipedal though. That's fascinating.

[C]

I think it's under dispute. I think, I think it's been disputed.

[A]

That's interesting.

[C]

It's hard to say. They don't have a lot of bones, right. They only have like a few jawbones and some stuff like.

[A]

Of them. Yeah. Dude. I learned something pretty interesting this last week. So I, I just got back from India, literally flew in here from India and we were doing some elephant rescues with Ventara, that big Indian wildlife rescue place. This elephant got hit by a car that we went and rescued so its leg was all jacked up. Speaking of non bipedal things. So you would think just the elephant would walk with a limp. Well, having that trunk, it's incredible. They use that trunk as a limb. So I was watching this elephant walk. I wish I had photos or video to show you, but I was watching this elephant walk and it wouldn't put weight on its leg that was hit by the car. So it would walk with three legs and its trunk as its fourth appendage. Oh, wow. Which is an amazing thing to see because you think of the size of an elephant's cranium and its head and the weight and in order to move that distribution off of that broken leg, it was using this trunk as a limb. It was just, it was incredible. It was really sad, but it was incredible thing to see the way they sort of figured out how to maneuver using that fifth appendage.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. People who go that little extra step like your rideshare, pointing out the best local places to eat goes a long way. If you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business, use ZipRecruiter. In fact, try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter's latest feature lets candidates go above and beyond to tell you why they want the role. And it shows you the most interested qualified candidates. First, try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ZipRecruiter.com/rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Does the elephant allow people to set its leg?

[A]

So, you know, in India, was it broken? I don't know. It went. So we went to Basically. So I work at this place called Ventara, which is the world's largest wildlife rescue and rehab center. It's unreal, dude, it would blow your mind. I mean like on a whole nother level. All privately funded by Anatombani, this Indian billionaire guy, the guy who had the huge wedding, if you remember that Justin Bieber sing at his wedding and stuff. He's a great dude. Him and I are buddies now, but. So he's funded this world's largest wildlife rescue and rehab. It like it makes a San Diego zoo look like a roadside attraction. I mean it's like crazy big. And so he does all these rescues. Right. So the reason I'm telling you all this is they go and respond to these rescues and then take it into this gigantic world's biggest animal hospital that they've built. So we went and rescued the elephant and now it's probably by today back in Ventara. Yeah, here you go. And. And they'll be treating it. So this is long toy. This is the other one. We did two rescues. This one was born with splay legs and then went into logging. And so all the weight and stuff from logging. See, you see the splay legs on the front there?

[C]

Ouch.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, I was just incredible. But the short answer is they do let people treat them because these animals are raised by, in captivity by what's called mahouts, which are elephant riders. And it's a really, the whole dynamics really fascinating. So you grow up with an elephant as a mahout in Indian culture, and then there's usually one or two mahouts that spend their life dedicated to the elephant. And all they do is ride them, log them, they use them as tools, but they still love them very much. It's just they use them as a tool. Elephants obviously aren't made to do that. So they break down over time.

[C]

So that's why its legs are like that. It's from carrying the amount of weight that comes from logging.

[A]

So that one would have been born with a deformity.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

But then years of compounding weight and everything else makes its legs like that. Oh, it's crazy. And then, yeah. So we go and we take the elephants in, plus the mahouts and take them all back to Ventura, give them a hoots, a full time job. These guys are sleeping on mattresses on the floor. Right. And then take them back and it's a whole thing reform everybody. It's amazing thing. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, wow. So when they treat the elephants like what, what do they do? For an elephant that has a broken leg.

[A]

So most of it's just pain management. Right. Because you can only get so far. So the one that got hit by

[C]

set them in a cast.

[A]

Not really. No. You know, it depends. I guess it depends on the fracture. I'm not a vet, but I guess it depends on the fracture. But what they do is they have. And Jamie, you might be able to see it. It's incredible. They have this giant Jacuzzi, like, imagine a Jacuzzi the size of your building here for elephants, and it's their hydrotherapy pool. So these animals that have terrible arthritis or fucked up feet or bad legs like that, they just spend all day in the water because then there's no weight on their limbs.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Which is really cool.

[C]

Do they have medication, like anti inflammatories for elephants?

[A]

Everything, man. This place uses unbelievable Eastern medicine, Western medicine, this crazy hospital. There's a lot of guys talking on their Instagram, unfortunately. But yeah. Yeah, look at that. Isn't that crazy? So they do these amazing.

[C]

Oh, fuck, man.

[A]

But yeah, it's a really, really cool place and we get to do some fun stuff. So I was. I was really privileged to be part of those elephant rescues. Really emotional when you see an animal, like an elephant that has so much, like, intelligence, look you in the eye and be like, I'm in so much pain. And then you, like, start to relieve it. It's cool.

[C]

I went to visit this place in Thailand a few years back that has wild elephants. So they're wild elephants, but you can ride them and that you feed them. So you make. You have. You make friends with them first.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you feed them sugar cane, you hang out with them, you pet them, and then they let you ride them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they put their arm out like this. Like, good.

[A]

Yeah. To walk up to step. Yeah.

[C]

So it lets, you know, like. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I didn't like the riding part. I felt wrong to me just, like, it's a thing that, like, all the tourists did, but my family wanted to do it, so I said, okay. Yeah, but it's okay. But the animals themselves are so sweet. They're like. When you're hanging around with them, they're like, they're so one of them. I got a video of it on my Instagram. She was just, like, eating a log.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

She kept chewing on this log. And I'm just hanging out with her, and I made this, like, video with me. I'm like, she's eating a log. I don't know why she's eating this log.

[A]

But they're so.

[C]

She's really sweet, but it wasn't. It was. It was a. It's a weird relationship that they have. And then you wash them at the end of the trip.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So they get them in the. They get in this pool, this big pond.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And you could just wash them and hang out with them. And they like it that you do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it feels good to them. And they're like, thank you. Well, no, thank you for carrying me.

[A]

There's good and bad. Like, I mean, elephants have been used through history. Right. In war, in logging and circuses, everything else. But now I would say in the last 20 years, we're finally sort of waking up to, hey, a lifetime of being on an elephant's back. Like, you can see the deformities, you can see the bed sores, you can see the hip dysplasia or hip issues from carrying people. Yeah.

[C]

Caring people.

[A]

They're just not designed for it. You know, they look. You think they are when you look at them and you're like, what could. You know, we're like an ant on that thing's back. But it's pretty hard on them. And the hardest part is actually not you or I or anybody riding them. It's walking on concrete. Because elephants have these soft, padded feet. They're not designed for rock hard ground. So the impact of walking on pavement is actually that compounding with added weight, that's what's actually so bad, I bet

[C]

the heat of the asphalt, too. And they're dogs. Like, dogs hate the heat of asphalt. It's horrible for them.

[A]

And the weirdest thing about an elephant foot, if you look at its anatomy, they're one of the few animals that walk on their toes. So they don't have toes splitting out like we do. They walk on top of their toes so that, you know, imagine that compounding on heat plus weight

[B]

close up, I guess. Weird.

[C]

It's a weird animal.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Isn't it cool that they thought that that's what a cyclops was when they found the skull?

[A]

Because the skull. Yeah.

[C]

That's why they thought cyclops were a real thing.

[A]

Dude. Have you ever seen. Have you ever been to the Explorers Club in New York City?

[C]

No.

[A]

That's worth a visit. You would love it. They have the Champawa tiger. They're like the most famous man eating tigers.

[C]

That's the one that killed like 476.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is that what the number.

[A]

I actually have it on my YouTube and I don't remember the name.

[C]

It's more than 400 people.

[A]

It's crazy. And then Jim Corbett went and shot it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to name my son Corbett because I love that story so much. But. But they have the only four tusked elephant at the Explorers Club in New York City.

[C]

Whoa.

[A]

I'm sure Jamie, you could find a picture of the skull. Nobody knows why. Total anomaly. Nobody's ever seen it. Nobody knows why. I think it's the only one in existence. And it literally has four tusks coming out of it.

[C]

Just a weird genetic thing I think.

[A]

So like that splay legged one.

[C]

We look because sometimes with elk they'll get an injury when they're young and then they'll get weird deformities of their. Their antlers.

[A]

But is that different because they shed their antlers every year so they grow back in weird ways. I don't.

[C]

That's a good question. I think it's an injury to the skull.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So an injury to like the area where the antler is. Like sometimes they just have one sword.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like there was a ranch that in California that had this one elk that was killing all the other elk because he didn't have antlers the same way. Oh, they got a yeti skull. Where'd you find that, Jamie?

[B]

11 big interesting things you can see there.

[A]

Oh, the explorers. Oh, interesting.

[C]

Sure. That's legit. So this one elk had on one side he had like normal antlers but the other side he just had a spear.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

And so he was just stabbing all these other and it was killing the other. Is this guy doing. Because it wasn't like they're used to their antlers interlocking. Of course the thing they get together and they clash and of course they try to impress the ladies.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there he is.

[C]

Look at that, the tusks.

[A]

Isn't that so weird?

[C]

Very weird. 4 and they're like weird the way they're in. They're going towards each other is weird.

[A]

Which makes you realize it's a genetic deformity.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's not like this perfect symmetrical like nature made it. It's. It's just. It's a mutation of kind.

[C]

Well, that's what's weird about genes. Right? Like things go wonky all the time. Someone's born with an extra arm. You're like, okay.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Sometimes people are born with tails and

[A]

you're like, oh, so, so weird. Dude, you. You and I talked about Barbarousa one time. The. The pigs that have those crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To Go into their own skulls.

[A]

My buddy, who's a vet, he just cut a horn out of a sable. Sable antelope that was growing into its own skull.

[C]

Oh, God.

[A]

It's crazy. I have a video of it on my Instagram, Jamie, if you want to see it. But it's. It. So it got an injury, so it killed part of the horn. And, you know, they're antelope, they're not deer, so they don't shed their horns, so they grow forever. So this guy had this giant horn just circling back, punching into its own skull. Can you imagine that? It was gnarly.

[C]

The pigs are nuts, though, or what. Whatever that animal's called.

[A]

The babirusa.

[C]

Is it a pit? It's technically a pig.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like a Indonesian warthog. Yeah.

[C]

But the way it goes into its own skull, no matter what. Like, it always happens.

[A]

Yeah. Because they have to fight and break them off, and if they don't fight and break them off, they just. It's nature. So weird, man. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that is crazy.

[A]

They're so cool.

[C]

I wonder what those things taste like.

[A]

I bet they taste great. I think all the swine tastes great.

[C]

I had javelina, which is not technically a swine. It's a peccary.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

It wasn't that good.

[B]

Not good?

[C]

No.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

That's unfortunate.

[C]

It's odd.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's like. No, just not the best. Like. Well, you got to think of what they're eating, you know, for what I

[A]

know about javelins, they eat garbage, primarily.

[C]

Yeah. I think that's part of the problem, because that's the case with bears. Right. Like, my friend Steve Rinella cooked a bear steak or a bear ham on his friend's smoker. And he said to his friend, he said, hey, you should probably clean that smoker. It smells like fish.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He goes, I've never cooked fish in that smoker once, and it was just from the bear. The bear had eaten so much fish that as he was smoking the bear, all you could smell was fish.

[A]

That's disgusting. It's like eating a seagull.

[C]

Whoa, look at this one. It's going right into its head.

[A]

That's the guy. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Wow.

[C]

That's nuts.

[A]

And it's. Yeah. He, like, cuts the horn off, and you can see because the horn's a living thing. There's only.

[C]

How is that animal still alive?

[A]

Barely. Like, they. He had millimeters of growth to go before it punched right into his brain.

[C]

That's crazy.

[A]

Gnarly.

[C]

So gnarly. It's like digging. And imagine that, like, every day, just a tiny little amount more is growing into your brain.

[A]

It's got to be this constant pain where, like, it just. It just gets tiny bit worse all the time.

[C]

Sawing through it.

[A]

See how much into the skull it went. Like, it was right there.

[C]

That's crazy.

[A]

So gross. I thought you'd like that.

[C]

I don't know if that says about me. Yeah, you thought that I would like that.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

That is gnarly, man. That poor dude. Now he doesn't have any antlers.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Or horns, right? Is it technically horns?

[A]

Horns, yeah. But he's still got a brain, so that helps.

[C]

Well, carry on, bro.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Nature's a motherfucker, dude.

[A]

Dude, it's crazy.

[C]

Where's the thylacine, man? What's going on?

[A]

It's gone pretty cold. Really? Yeah.

[C]

I mean, so I was hoping you'd come in with new evidence.

[A]

I wish I was. There's a group that I've. I've been working with called Mammal Watching, like, if you heard a bird watching. And they've been going into Western Papua and Papua New guinea, which is, as you know, where I think there could still be a tiny population. And so I'm working with them. They're giving trail cameras out to guys. They're still hearing legends here and there, but it's just. I don't know, it's. It feels like the legends are getting fewer and further between, like, almost over generational time. It's disappearing, if that makes sense.

[C]

Oh, that's a bad sign.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That means whatever's left is probably dying off, right?

[A]

If at all. Yeah. And, I mean, I still hold out hope. It's something I've always wanted to be, and I, like, I want it to be there, but it just. It feels like those bits of evidence that we're compounding have all sort of started to fade.

[C]

That sucks.

[A]

I know.

[C]

It is a very interesting thing, with the incredible variety of wildlife that we have, that we're so fascinated by the ones that might not be alive. This, like the things like the thylacine or the giant sloth.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I remember I watched this documentary on the giant sloth. There was this one scientist, this biologist, who had spent an inordinate amount of time, like years in. In the Amazon, looking for a giant sloth and was realizing at some point in time during the documentary that he

[A]

might have ruined his career overdoing it. Yeah.

[C]

He might have been chasing something that doesn't exist. And it's this wild gamble if he listens to these people and they're telling him the truth, right? Because all the natives, like, oh, yeah, bro, they're out here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Right around the next turn.

[A]

We'll find them tomorrow.

[C]

Yeah, right over the next mountain.

[A]

Yeah, I've been there. But, you know, if you don't follow those leads, like, do you know what the saola is? The Asian unicorn.

[C]

I've heard that.

[A]

Yeah, Same thing, same story, but real animal. And you know, there was basically one ever seen by western science, an animal named Martha. And for years, scientists, Western scientists were going into Vietnam and Laos and they're going, yeah, yeah, we have this thing called the sala, the Asian unicorn. And they're like, shut up. You know, and then all of a sudden, turns out, here's this giant bovid that still exists.

[C]

What a cool looking animal, too.

[A]

Yeah. And nobody knows whether they still exist now or not.

[C]

Is that it right there?

[A]

That's it, yeah. So basically there's been three or four, maybe more that have ever been seen. Most of them caught in poacher snares like this one. But then really cool guy named Bill Robichaud got a call once from a prince and he had caught one, and it was in his village, and he flew in there and overnight the poor thing died. And that was the only time a single westerner in history has ever seen a live sala.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And this guy had it. And then. And then he's like, can we please preserve it? And the king was like, now we're gonna eat it. And they ate it.

[C]

Whoa.

[A]

Got nothing out of it. Yeah, he's got pictures and stuff. So, you know, it's all. It's all real. But they call it the unicorn because its horns are so symmetrical that when you look at it from a side profile, looks like one horn coming out of its head.

[B]

Like that.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[C]

That's weird.

[A]

Yeah, they're very cool. But it's a bovid. It's a. It's a cattle. That's. That's not one. I don't know why they're using that photo.

[C]

Oh, how odd.

[A]

Yeah, but that's the same thing as these, you know, these things around giant slots and thylacine and Bigfoot and everything else. It's, it's. They are out there, you know, some of them, not all of them, but

[B]

they are out there.

[A]

And if you don't follow the lead, if you ignore it, then you miss things like that.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees and thousands of fee free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com rogan takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chimes Bank Partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. Well, this is also like, when you think about things like the Amazon, like if you ever see footage of the Amazon from above, you go, oh, there's no way, you know, that's so big. You, you look down and you go, oh, well, there's no way, you know, this is, this is way too big. There's no way there's a bunch of people scouring every inch of that place.

[A]

I mean, given there are still groups of human beings uncontacted.

[C]

Oh, a lot like my friend Paul. Rosalie.

[A]

Yeah, I know Paul.

[C]

Yeah, he's come in contact with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Multiple times.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

See if you can get some aerial footage of flying over the Amazon. I mean it's, it's in multiple countries. It's. What is it? Oh, it's crazy.

[A]

Bolivia, Brazil, Argent, Argentina.

[C]

Big.

[A]

It's huge.

[C]

It's so fucking big.

[A]

And I had a similar experience in New guinea talking about thylacine, where we got on a plane in a place called Tufi and flew to another area.

[C]

Like, look at this.

[A]

It was just like this for 4 hours. We didn't see one building Amazon in 4K.

[C]

So just imagine like there is no fucking way, you know, you know what's in there.

[A]

No way.

[C]

There's probably a bunch of shit in there that no one has found.

[A]

And then there's. Oh, undeniably there are. And then there's stuff, you know, like you'll get a kick out of this Loch Ness monster. What do you think it is?

[C]

Maybe a sturgeon or something like that.

[A]

Jamie, what do you think the Loch Ness monster is?

[B]

I mean, I think they know, but I don't know. Probably. I don't know.

[A]

Whale dick.

[C]

What?

[A]

Whale dick.

[C]

Whale dick.

[A]

Whale dick. Loch Ness monster versus whale dick. Look at this and tell me this isn't what they think is the lock. Wait a minute.

[C]

Do you mean, like, the photos that. The hoax photo of the one that's poking out of the water?

[A]

That one. I mean, you'll see it in a second here, I think. But there are these photos of a whale's penis compared to the Loch Ness monster. And I mean, I. That's certainly not proof, but it kind of answers a lot of like, that's a whale dick right there.

[C]

That is a whale dick. But that photo, I'm pretty sure is a proven hoax.

[A]

That one is.

[C]

Yeah. I think that photo is, like, a guy, like, made something out of wood and, like, floated it in the water and took a picture. Is that what the story behind that?

[A]

There's something along those lines?

[C]

No, Loch Ness monster isn't a whale penis. Professor says.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, if the Internet professor says it, then.

[C]

Oh, a professor. Oh, well, let's take him seriously. He's out there. If you're the type of professor that they call upon when they're trying to figure out if something's a whale dick, maybe.

[A]

Sir, would you please study these nine whale penis and tell us your thoughts on this?

[C]

Maybe that's what happened to the. What?

[B]

It was his claim. And then he said he was just, like, kind of messing around.

[A]

Well, I'm sticking with it. I like it.

[C]

I like the way he's the one. The guy that proposed it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, darn it, I like it.

[C]

He walked back his salacious claim. That's so funny. Maybe that's the guy that was looking for the. The giant sloth.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He's like, I need a new angle. This giant sloth thing did not pan out.

[A]

I like it. Big difference.

[C]

If you're a guy looking for a giant sloth in the Amazon, like, where do you look? Good luck finding it.

[A]

You have to find geographically isolated areas because they're little pockets. Right. If little pockets of. Okay, people aren't coming in here, animals aren't going out. There's a big ring of mountains. There's. Whatever it happens to be. I met a guy who said he guaranteed he knew all these people like this, but I always enjoy the story of it, that there was this pocket in Peru that was completely geographically isolated by the mountains, and that's where they were. And the idea is that these areas remain unchanged. Right. It's like an island, basically. Right. In the Amazon. Like, things just don't change because it's so isolated from everything else.

[C]

Well, I think the idea also is that giant sloths, where we know they existed in North America, that whenever whatever happened that ended the Ice Age, the younger Dryas impact, that it didn't affect things below the equator, at the equator. It was more of a Northern hemisphere thing.

[A]

Yeah. Because the climate shift was so much stronger.

[C]

Exactly. And so the most of the animals that died off, if you look at, like the. I think it was 65% of North American megafauna, died off during this very short window.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

That. That didn't happen.

[A]

Right.

[C]

In South America.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that we're just guessing that they're dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, because if there was a healthy pop, like, think how many tigers are there in the wild? I think there's 5,000.

[A]

It's something like that. Yeah. It's gone way up, by the way. Used it was down to 400.

[C]

Fun fact. More tigers in captivity in Texas.

[A]

I know.

[C]

Than there are in all of the wild of the world.

[A]

It's Texas crazy, man.

[C]

It's such a wild people's yards.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In private collections in Texas, there's more tigers than all of the wild of the world.

[A]

It's such an insane statement that should not exist. Yeah.

[C]

I love this state.

[A]

It's just my favorite place. Get away with it.

[C]

It's just a wild place, like, for all intents and purposes.

[A]

Yeah. It's hilarious.

[C]

Wild for people, dude.

[A]

I love Texas. Every time I come to Texas, I'm like, this place is great. I always have fun. Everybody's so nice, too.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

That's the best part. It's like nobody scowls at you. You get in the elevator and they're like, hey, how's your day going? And you're, like, very friendly. I'll tell you how it's going.

[C]

Very. A lot of people, especially coastal elites, I would like to say, like, people. Coastal snobs, they have this idea of it being, like, filled with rednecks and ignorant people and foolish people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not that way at all. Especially Austin. Austin is, like, one of the most, like, liberal, easygoing, progressive cities.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But, like, even the progressives here, they're, like, more reasonable.

[A]

It's like down to earth.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like, extremism. Right.

[C]

Well, they. They're definitely more crazy than they were 20 years ago when I first started coming here.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But way less crazy than, like, liberals in la.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or liberals in Cal. Or liberals In New York, just where they're.

[A]

Where it's just extreme. Right? Like, protests and all these.

[C]

Yeah, well, it's like this. There's a saying about Austin. Keep Austin weird and surrounded.

[A]

And surrounded.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What is the end? Surrounded.

[C]

Surrounded by red people. Like, it's all red states around you. And this is pocket of blue that's in the center of this red state. I think that's good for everybody. Yeah, I think that's good. It's a balance. And, like, the. The liberals that want to turn Texas blue, like, don't. You're gonna ruin it. You're gonna ruin it for you, too. You don't get it. Like, balance is important. Like, it's like, you can't kill all the predators because then the deer get overrun and you're hitting them with cars, and you can't kill all the deer because then there's no food. And, I mean, that's what they did when they were market hunting. Balance. And you need balance with humans, too, 100%. And the Austin balance is a great balance.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a liberal city surrounded by, like, hardcore Republicans with guns and tigers.

[A]

And it works. And it all works.

[C]

It works. It makes for nice people. It's like. It's a good mix.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And a misunderstood mix.

[A]

That's interesting.

[C]

People on the outside, they have a very distorted perception of what Texas is, especially Austin.

[A]

Yeah. Well, how do you feel as a California. I mean, you bounced around, but as a California transplant, did you bring your acai bowls? And you're like, I need all that California stuff here.

[C]

What stuff?

[A]

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. That's the thing, though, right? It's like all the Californians coming here and messing it up kind of thing.

[C]

I was never one of those. So my. What I got out of California was the Comedy Store work.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then Jiu Jitsu. So, like, you get all that here? Austin is arguably the jiu Jitsu capital of the world right now.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. Is this where the new league is based out of?

[C]

No, that's. You mean the. The UFC league?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, that's in Vegas. They do that in Vegas because that's where the UFC's headquarters are. But Austin has Kings World, which is Gordon Ryan's place. It's got B Team is out here. Shan Gibero is out here.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

There's a bunch of Gracie Baja schools out here. There's multiple 10th planet schools out here. It's like, there's an incredible amount of jiu jitsu out here.

[A]

So what I'm hearing is this is where to bring Run Nation, Bring it to Austin.

[C]

They'll never win. The only people that are gonna win are those wild New Zealand dudes and those Australian guys. Those guys will win every time. They're built for that. No, but it's. It's just a great city, period. Artistically. It's always been like a great music city. Now it's arguably the comedy capital of the country.

[A]

So many comedians here now. Right.

[C]

It's because they got here and they went, oh, this is way better. There's no traffic, everyone's nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you could do whatever you want. And also, there's a lot of places to do comedy. And just on my street, where my club is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's five or six other clubs that have opened up since we opened up.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So it's incredible. So if you're a young comic and you or an established comic that just wants to work out material, you could go. Go to my club. You hop down the street to the Sunset Room, which is my friend Brian's club, right down the street. And you can go down the street to the Creek in the Cave, an amazing club that's just two seconds away.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[C]

It's like one block over. Like, everything's close. The Vulcan, which is right there. Everything's right there.

[A]

Huh?

[C]

It's incredible. It's incredible.

[A]

It's great. I'm glad you're so stoked here.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I remember when the first, maybe the second time we hung out down at your show in. Not Westlake, where was it? Woodland Hills.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were like, dude, I gotta get out of here.

[C]

Yeah, I wanted to get out a long time ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And fun fact. We started the podcast because I was depressed because I had to move back from Colorado.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

So I lived in Colorado for a little bit, but my wife got pregnant. And when she was pregnant, it was like, if you are an altitude, we're at 8,500ft above sea level. It's rough.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And we went back to LA for a short period of time and. And she was fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then we went back to Colorado and she was sick again. I was like, okay. And then we were reading about low birth weight. Premature birth is a lot of, like, really bad things that happen to people, especially if you're not acclimated. So you move to these high altitude areas. By the way, working out there. When I worked out there, I. I was. I thought I was gonna Die. And then I went to Philadelphia and I had to do some gigs in Philadelphia, and I worked out, and I felt like I could run through a wall.

[A]

You just had so much oxygen.

[C]

So much. I was like, this is incredible. It's the only time in my life I've ever been altitude adjusted. Like, where my. My body had adapted.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, there's a mat. This is a massive advantage. No wonder why fighters do it.

[A]

And you don't acclimate being up at that height over months or anything else. Oh, I did.

[C]

I certainly did. Like, I could work out there. And I used to. I did Jiu Jitsu in Boulder. So Boulder was. I was in a place called Gold hill, which is 8,500ft above sea level, and Boulder's like 55.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So I was doing shout out to Amal Easton, my friend Amal. He has a Jiu Jitsu gym in Boulder. Great place.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And when I was training there, I was fine. I mean, you could train, but you definitely could feel it. It was. And I had trained there once before when I had come from la, and I was like, woo. This altitude's rough. Like, it's like working out in Denver. You're like, woo.

[A]

You feel it. Yeah.

[C]

But not like you feel it at 8, 500ft. 8,500ft was. I do this. These kettlebell workouts. And I was doing it, and I'm used to what it does. Like, I'm used to be. And I was like, this is crazy. This feels like I'm drunk.

[A]

Yeah. Like, it felt nothing in the tank.

[C]

It really felt like I drank a bottle of whiskey and tried to work out. I was so tired.

[A]

I went to the Himalayas, like, maybe four or five years ago to look for red pandas up in the trees, you know, those cute little guys. And day one, I literally maybe made it 400ft and then had to sit down. And I was like, all right, we're trekking for pandas. We're heading up into the mountains. We'll find these pandas. And I just. I don't remember what the elevation was, but I'd come from Santa Barbara, where I live, which is sea level, to this high Himalayas, and I. I had to sit down, like, every 15 minutes for the first couple days.

[C]

The most horrifying video the other day of this guy who was on one of those summit hikes and slipped.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

His friends watched him slide, like, all the way down to just sliding down ice and snow and couldn't stop and couldn't. And they Just had to stand there and watch this guy slide away.

[A]

What can you do?

[C]

Nothing.

[A]

That's so crazy. Was he climbing?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, he was trying. He was making it to the summit and slipped.

[A]

Yeah, it's brutal.

[C]

It slipped off the, you know, just a very clear path and slipped off of it and just start sliding and you realize, oh, he's gone.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

He's gonna go off forever.

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

Oh, it's horrible.

[A]

I always want to, like, take my kids to do these things with me, you know, And I'm like, I want to take them to trek and see the mountains and catch crocodiles and do all these various things that I like to do. And you realize it's like my 6 year old can barely walk in a straight line without falling down. You know what I mean? Like, imagine taking him on a mountain track.

[C]

Oh, so scary. But on the other hand, like, you don't want to protect them too much. You want to expose them to a certain amount of danger. Because I think it's good for them. It's good for them. Yeah, yeah. It's good for them to experience. It's also good for them to have like a broader understanding of what the world is. Right. Like the world's a bunch of different things.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's not just Santa Monica.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Like, yeah. Oh, there's Costa Rica. Like, whoa, this is crazy. Look at these bugs. These are nuts.

[A]

Like birds.

[C]

Like, there's. It's nice.

[A]

It's important.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because otherwise we live in a bubble. Like, America's great. I say this to my wife all the time. I'm so patriotic. I love this country. It's great. But it's a bubble.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything's easy, it's safe. You can order shit on your phone, it shows up at your house. You know, there's a million restaurants to pick from. Obviously it depends where you live, but you get my point.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And then you get out of here and it's like, okay, everything closes at 4pm like, go figure out your food. You know what I mean? And then you're like, okay, well, now I, now I have two kids who are hungry and we're in the jungle. Or it's, you know, in a town that everything shuts down on Sundays or whatever. It's like, figure it out. Those are important lessons for little kids to be dynamic and figure out, like, how the rest of the world works and that they have to figure out how to get things when it's not all just at the touch of your, you know, phone.

[C]

Also to recognize that there's going to be times where you don't have food.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like people are just so accustomed to having food anytime they're hungry. And in fact, sometimes when they're not even hungry, they're just bored. So they start stuffing their face when they're bored. Which never existed in all of human history.

[A]

No, no, dude, I just read. You might be well read on this, but I just read something interesting. The eight hour night of sleep.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Invented by a mattress company. You know about this?

[C]

I didn't know it was invented by a mattress company, but I do know that traditionally in the past, people would do two sleeps.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This was. Yeah. So you know about what I'm talking about. I just read this literally yesterday in one of my doom scrolling things.

[C]

But it's interesting because I did that a lot when, where I would wake up in the middle of the night and I just decided to watch tv, do something TV for a few hours and then I'd go back to sleep. But it was just, for me, it was just like being indulgent because I was single and free and, you know, 25 years old and I had my own apartment. I'm like, I can do whatever the fuck I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Get up at 3 o' clock in the morning, watch TV for a couple hours and go to sleep till noon.

[A]

Why not sit around in your boxers, eat cereal?

[B]

Mattress part is a myth.

[A]

Oh, it is. Oh, God damn it. Everything I keep bringing up is a myth, Jamie. No whale dicks, no mattresses is the killer of dreams.

[B]

I saw the same Instagram video you guys saw and I thought it was interesting too.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That is the myth. I think that might be a myth. I think the two sleep thing was a way that people would get up in the middle of the night. But you also have to think. I think a lot of people went to bed way earlier because it got

[A]

dark and we didn't have electricity.

[C]

And there's a normal circadian rhythm where people get. It gets dark out, you eat, maybe hang out in front of a campfire for a little while and then you go to bed.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If you've ever gone camping, that's what most people do. Most people don't stay up till four in the morning when you're camping.

[A]

Not without booze.

[C]

Nothing to do with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you've got booze, you might be up late telling stories and laughing. And if anybody breaks out a guitar

[A]

and you're up all night.

[B]

When you mentioned pandas, I was going to ask you about. I mean, my dad's team going around the same places that pandas are fake.

[A]

Did you see the zoo in China?

[C]

There's a lot of people talking about that.

[A]

Did you see the zoo in China that painted the Pomeranians?

[C]

I didn't see that. But the thing is about pants pandas is that I and I, I went down a rabbit hole with this the other night. There were no depictions of pandas in like ancient Chinese history.

[A]

No. Is that true?

[C]

Yeah, it is true. Yeah. They didn't show up until like, God, I want to say it was like the 16th century or 17th century.

[A]

That's bizarre. I wonder why that is. Because, you know, there were explorers going through the area and all of that.

[C]

Well, the idea was that maybe they were engineered to eat. Eat bamboo. Because bamboo, if you think about it, is like a very prolific print.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Like I have bamboo on my property that just grows like. It's crazy how well it grows. Grows so quickly.

[A]

And there's almost no nutritional value in it either. Right? Yeah.

[C]

So here's the panda. Interesting. The claim is largely true with nuance. So was that what did you search into? Perplexity, our AI sponsor. Is it true that pandas aren't in Chinese ancient history? The claim is largely true, though with nuance. Okay. Giant pandas, strikingly absent from China's classical cultural record. Unlike the dragon, which is weird. Tiger Crane, by the way. Our conversation about it made it to the View. I don't know if you know about that.

[A]

You changed your status to dragon believer. It was so funny.

[C]

Joy Bayard's like. He believes in dragons. Like, oh my God, this is wonderful. Oh, it's so good. This is so good. Okay, so when did it happen? Unlike the dragon, Tiger Crane or tortoise doesn't appear on ancient bronzes or pottery, in Tang, poetry, song paintings. Juan Yuan. Yuan. How do you say that?

[A]

Beats me.

[C]

Juan drama, Ming novels or Q I N G King Queen. Queen. Before the late 20th century, it had essentially no symbolic role in Chinese civilization. Its status as a national treasure is a post 1949 invention.

[A]

That's bizarre.

[C]

After pandas became famous, famous Globally in the 20th century Chinese scholars went back and combed old texts looking for them. A few candidate references exist. The Xi Jing Book of Odes and Shangu mention a creature called PI or Mo, which some modern scholars retroactively identified as the panda. But the identification is contested. And those same words were also used for leopards. Taper.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Tapir, or mythical beasts. Emperor wen of Han, 2nd century BCE, reportedly had a MO buried in his mother's tomb. Sometimes claimed as a panda. But that's. It's weird. That is very bizarre, fragmentary, ambiguous, and rare. Nothing like the deep iconographic tradition around dragons, phoenixes, or tigers.

[A]

Why the app Rogan style claim?

[C]

I've never even said it before. You. How dare you? Perplexity. That is so funny. It's a Rogan style claim.

[B]

I think it's essentially on the podcast.

[A]

Also, it's listening right now because I

[B]

sometimes will bring in questions I've asked from, like last month, and I'll be like, are you. And I'm like, no, I didn't. This is a separate search, but it's like, all locked into the AI history.

[C]

Oh, I. I asked it a question once and it said, as you have

[A]

previously stated, no way. I was like, whoa, interesting.

[C]

I was trying to find out, like, how many views something had gotten.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're like, as you previously stated, told you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Although you're using me as data. This is why AI is so up.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you're trusting me. I'm trusting you. Don't trust me at all. I get all my information from you.

[A]

Dude, that's so weird because you. Weird, because it's not like, you know, okay, there's no mention of ducks. I get it. Because there's ducks everywhere. Who cares? Right? Like, so why do we write about them? But it's not something like that were never so abundant that it was not worth talking about.

[C]

Yeah. See if where this theory. Who invented this theory that they were engineered to eat bamboo?

[A]

So who did this engineering in this theory?

[C]

Well, that's a question like, who did dogs? Right? Why do we have dogs?

[A]

Right.

[C]

Which is really weird. You know why I have a dog? He's a King Charles Cavalier. You know those little.

[A]

I do.

[C]

They're very cute. Adorable. He's so cute. I love him to death. But he. And he's made an appearance on the podcast.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[C]

He's the furthest thing from a wolf, like, as far as we've taken a wolf to make it so fucking adorable and cute. But that is what it is. That was at one point in time a wolf. And somehow or another, we engineered it down to a dog that's adorable and just wants to cuddle with you and

[A]

sit in your lap and play and weighs 25 pounds.

[C]

So what happened? And how did we do that? And could you do that with a bear? And could you get a bear then take Take that bear and make it something. I think it's the only bear that's a true herbivore as well.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's correct. Yeah. Which is true bear. Yeah.

[C]

Weird. So what have we done? Their digestive tract, we changed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they're required. Like. Like, it's like koalas. I think they only eat eucalyptus.

[A]

That's right. Yep.

[C]

Fucking weird.

[A]

Bizarre. Also has no nutritional value. And you probably know this makes them, like, high. Basically.

[B]

I was looking up who did it and started going on the thing that it's not. No one is known for the theory. It's because they're actually carnivores.

[C]

Oh. They're attacks. Oh, so it's koalas, I think, are the ones that are pure herbivores.

[A]

They definitely are, but they're not bears at all. They're a marsupial. They just call them koala bears.

[C]

I see.

[A]

So when they say they are taxonomic carnivores, that means taxonomically, they're in the order carnivora, if that makes sense. So.

[C]

But it says with a short digestive tract and gut. Microbiomes of a meat eater.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. So they're vegans, but you could selectively breed for anything to some degree if you had enough time.

[C]

But look, but that's the other thing. Like, why are they so cute? I think of that because they're so much cuter than any other bear by far. Like, that face, even with the teeth out.

[A]

Like, buddy, they also have the best PR campaign in history. Like, they're. They're the dumbest animals in the world. You know this, right?

[C]

Really?

[A]

Oh, my God. I don't know if that's the right terminology, but, like, you can hand a panda an apple and it will hand you its baby. I'm not joking. Dude. You can find videos of this.

[C]

Well, isn't there more evidence that it's raised that it's been engineered because it doesn't have the instincts that a wild animal would have?

[A]

Dude, their parental instincts are bonkers. Bonkers. Like, they will drop their baby and go for an apple. That's how zookeepers take their babies away.

[B]

It's. It's.

[A]

Dude, it's like these guys are trying to go extinct. I swear to God, it's insane.

[C]

So where did the theory come from? See if you can find out where the theory came from that they were engineered to eat bamboo.

[B]

That's why I asked that exact question. It says just.

[C]

Which just starts showing up on my Instagram about three months ago.

[A]

Huh. Dude, Instagram. You never know what you're gonna get.

[C]

Of course, but that's what's fun. Yeah, as long as you don't buy into it.

[B]

It.

[A]

Dude, the problem is even like me and what I do as a biologist, I can. I mean, I'd say 90% I can tell, but there's a 10% where I can't tell if it's AI or real or. And I'm looking at it going, well, that behavior is wrong, so it has to be AI. But it's crazy what's going on in like the animal space with the AI mockups.

[C]

Now I watched one today where it was a wildebeest that a leopard had jumped on its back and the wildebeest jumped into the water and the crocodiles killed the leopard on its back and then the will beast got away.

[A]

Totally fake.

[C]

It has to be.

[A]

Sounds fake. I mean, it sounds insane.

[C]

Wildebeest is smart all of a sudden. So smart that it figured out all I have to do is get to those crocs and the crops. Also, like, you're gonna run. I don't. Like you're gonna give yourself more problems.

[A]

Right. By going into the water.

[C]

Yeah. By the way, multiple crocodiles. So why wouldn't they just eat you too?

[A]

They would. They just kill everything, kill everybody, everything. If they wouldn't get there.

[C]

Both of you are compromised. It's not gonna just grab the leopard on your back, it's gonna grab you

[A]

too, because you can't get away anything they can get. Yeah, yeah. No, it's fake.

[C]

It's crazy. But it was also fun.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's also get away in a different video, but. Yeah, here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Oh, so this is a.

[B]

That's a longer cut of the video.

[A]

But you can see by like the saturation of the leopard's a little fake. And like the way the claws are kind of like. There's no claws. It's almost like soft pawing it. Do you know what I mean?

[C]

Right, Right. Look how he's hanging on.

[B]

This could be a video of a real wildebeest getting eaten by a croc. And they just added the leopard to the back.

[A]

That very well. Pretty.

[C]

It's pretty amazing.

[A]

Look.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, bro, that's real. Guys, stop. This is different. This one's different because this one, the will also, by the way, the wilder beast is doing way too well in that struggle.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Cuz when crocodiles do get wilder beast, they get them quick.

[B]

The leopard got on this one.

[A]

Someone put some time into this.

[C]

Yeah. When the crocs get a hold of something. It's really. It's a wreck, dude.

[A]

I just.

[C]

It's not much of a struggle.

[A]

I just did. I'm probably not supposed to talk about this yet, but I just did this show for Discovery that I've been working on for a couple years where basically I put myself in the perspective of prey. So I would have been in the perspective of that wildebeest. Through engineering and doing all these, like, builds and stuff like that, and I lowered myself into a pond of crocodiles. It was insane. I had a cage around me, so a very small cage. It was basically a coffin.

[C]

Made out of what, though? What's a cage made out of?

[A]

Whatever the guys in the workshop could find, I think steel.

[C]

Did they try it out first?

[A]

No. I mean, we tested it with nothing in it, and we're like, okay, this is working. I could send it to Jamie. I have it on my phone, but it was.

[C]

Send it to Jamie.

[A]

It was nuts.

[C]

Why would you do that?

[A]

I don't know, man.

[C]

Well, it's like those shark cages, man. Those things don't hold up. You've seen that before, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Where they go straight through the shark cage.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's craziness. It's absolute craziness. I'll find. Here we go. Dude, we did. I don't know why I did. Oh, you know what, Jamie? Go on, if you don't mind. Go on the Discovery Instagram. I think it's there. Good. Good luck finding it. I can send you something in the meantime, but I think they posted, like, a short teaser of it. It was nuts, though. So I'm in this little cage. We rigged up these cables.

[C]

Are you wearing scuba gear or what?

[A]

So I had a scuba tank with me in case the thing broke and I ended up on the bottom. Sounds dumber out loud.

[C]

Then you have so much oxygen before

[B]

they can get you out.

[A]

30 minutes. 30 minutes before.

[C]

Oh, God, dude.

[A]

And then I was talking to our guy. So, you know, TV production. So there's like, stunt coordinators and all this stuff. And I was like, so, okay, cable snaps. I go down, I grab the regulator. I've got 30 minutes to 40 minutes in my tank. Then what? He's like, oh, well, I have this grappling hook. We'll throw it, hook it with the grappling hook and pull it out. I'm like, bro, what if you hit a log? He's like, hmm, hadn't thought about that. I'm like, how you getting me out of here?

[C]

This Is not only that. That easily could take more than 30 minutes.

[A]

Of course it could take more than 30 minutes.

[C]

So you might have to get out and swim.

[A]

Swim? Oh, I could.

[C]

Can you get out?

[A]

I couldn't. I locked myself into the cage. There was no getting out.

[C]

You did this?

[A]

Yeah. It was pretty dumb. It was fun. It was cool, though, because it was such a unique perspective. But I told my wife when I got home from that one, I was like, yeah, I think it's my last year doing this. It's getting too, too much now.

[C]

That's the thing about those kind of shows. It's like, it's not enough to just see the animals. You have to do something that makes it spectacular enough, get people to tune in. Like that polar bear one where the guy got in that big plexiglass box

[A]

that literally inspired the whole series. I swear to God.

[C]

Yeah, I hate that video.

[A]

It's crazy.

[C]

I mean, I've watched it a hundred times. I know I don't hate it, but I hate the idea of it because it just shows you how predatory polar bears are and how they don't give a fuck. It's just trying to get at that guy.

[A]

Isn't it crazy? Yeah, it's gnarly.

[C]

I mean, there's actively hunting him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's so different than the other bears, which, like, if you get killed by a grizzly, generally, it's like you fucked up.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like you stumbled upon one that's startled it, or you startled it, or, you know, you zig when you should have zagged.

[A]

Have you seen the city in Russia? The abandoned island city where the polar bears have taken over?

[C]

No.

[A]

Oh, you got to see this. It's incredible.

[C]

I've seen videos of Russia of people, like, getting chased by polar bears in their town.

[A]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. There's like, the one where the guy jumps on the snowmobile and, like, runs

[C]

after him and barely gets away.

[A]

There's a whole. Whole area in the Bering Sea that was, I want to say, a former mining town or maybe fishing town, and people moved out because it collapsed for whatever reason. This place. Look at this. And the polar bears have just moved into town.

[C]

Oh, they're living in the house.

[A]

They're living in the house. Look at this. There's just like.

[C]

They took it over as a den.

[A]

Completely took it over. How cool is this?

[C]

That's amazing.

[A]

They're just fully moved in, like, living in the house. That's a drone shop. But they're. This is not AI. This was legit.

[C]

They're so cool looking.

[A]

Oh, they're the coolest.

[C]

They're so interesting.

[A]

How amazing is that, though? Imagine, like, imagine you're out on a boat and you're like, oh, man, we've been sailing for three weeks. Oh, look, there's, like, a little village. Let's pop in there for a day.

[C]

That'd be a cool movie.

[A]

Yeah, that would be a good movie. Yeah.

[C]

A bunch of people like, oh, we found a village. Let's go there.

[A]

You, like, head in and turn, you know, like, set up in the. And then all of a sudden, you're surrounded.

[C]

Yeah. It's all polar bear. You're like, why is there so much in this house? Because they probably just shit right in the house. Oh, yeah. So they're pawing at drones.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[C]

Look how cool they're hanging out the window. Like, hey, Tom.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Come on over, Have a drink.

[A]

You could put me in the glass box on this island. This looks so cool.

[C]

It is so cool.

[B]

They're.

[C]

They're an amazing animal.

[A]

They really are.

[C]

But they're. They're so weird. They're so long, too.

[A]

I went and did a sort of a trek with them.

[B]

Where are they getting food on that island if they're the only ones there?

[C]

Oh, well, they're the only ones there, but it's not their seals and all kinds of other.

[A]

They'll be hunting all the marine mammals in the area.

[C]

Yeah, they're. They're the cleanup crew.

[A]

And they swim huge distances.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

A couple have turned up in Iceland. Did you know that?

[C]

What?

[A]

Yeah, there's, I think, two or three cases of polar bears that have swum from Greenland to Iceland and made it.

[C]

How far is that?

[A]

I'm not sure, but it's not close, obviously. It's crazy. It took the Vikings, like, a hundred years to do it. Yeah.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then all of them swim that far.

[B]

200 miles.

[A]

200 miles.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Are you. Hopefully this isn't a myth. Are you seeing this one?

[B]

Says it was shot dead after. After it did it in 2008.

[A]

Yeah. And it swam across, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, get off. They don't.

[C]

100 miles.

[A]

How crazy is that? Just take a swim one day and end up colonizing an entirely new place.

[C]

So it's like the David Goggins of polar bears, bro. I can make it feel no pain. Operation to kill the animals captured on film. Let's go.

[B]

Video might not.

[C]

Let's go. Let's see that video.

[B]

Got an error. 404.

[A]

Yeah, but isn't that crazy 200 mile swim as a bear.

[B]

This says it might have, well jumped off of just a piece of ice somewhere. So it could have, you know, got

[A]

a little float, right?

[C]

It could have hung out for a little bit, sure.

[A]

But still, even 50 miles, that's pretty far.

[C]

Well, they can last so long with the fat that's on their body.

[A]

And they like snooze float. Have you seen that? They'll like. They won't just like actively swim. They'll like kind of like snooze float in between hunting. It's kind of amazing in the winter they have so much fat, you know that or yeah. In the winter, stored up, getting ready to chill. Cause they don't eat as much during the summer. Am I getting this right? I think so.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That they like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You see them like snooze floating in the ocean.

[C]

Well, they eat a lot in the summer to get ready for the winter, right.

[A]

I know they eat a lot in mid summer. They don't eat a lot. It's too hot for them to actively hunt. I know that, that.

[C]

How hot is it? Too hot for them to actively hunt.

[A]

I went to Manitoba, Canada to go see them on foot and it was like 75 degrees at the height of the day or maybe 70. And yeah, they wouldn't be hunting.

[C]

Polar bears were frequently tamed during the Middle Ages. What says no bear has been captured alive in Iceland. Oh. But since then, receding North Pole ice is diminishing their hunting and mating grounds and jeopardizing their survival.

[B]

Oldest sighting in Iceland was 890.

[C]

Whoa.

[B]

Sixteen years after the first people got there.

[A]

But what's crazy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

What's crazy if you think about that is all it would take if people weren't there is two polar bears over the course of polar bear's lifetime to wash up on the island. And then you have a population of polar bears there, Right. Do you know what I mean? The male swims there, five years later the female swims there. Boom. There's population of polar bears, right. There's plenty of food.

[C]

You know what an adventurous female would

[A]

have to be true.

[C]

12:52, Henry III took delivery of a white bear sent to him as a gift from King Hakon IV of Norway. He decided to keep it in the Tower of London. The bear was either too big or too exciting to be taken to Oxfordshire where there had been a royal menagerie at Woodstock since Harry the Henry I reign. What's more, it needed to fish. So the beast was sent to the Tower and from what we could tell, it was well looked out for. Although it had a muzzle and a chain to wear while on land, the sheriffs of London were obliged to lay out more than a shilling a week for its upkeep, which added up over a year to roughly the expected income of a knight.

[A]

What a wild story.

[B]

They had no guns to stop them. What the hell would you do to them?

[C]

Bows and arrows, I guess. And spears. The bear had a long swimming leash. The man wore waterproof clothes. What? The keeper. So it had a keeper. The bear came with a Norwegian keeper. And the keeper was allowed to lead fishing trips into Thames. How do you say that? Thames.

[A]

The Thames River Thames.

[C]

Which the tower sat. The men wore waterproof clothes. Again, built to the crown. The bear had a long swimming leash. There were salmon in the Thames in those days. So while being in London was probably not half so pleasing. The bear sitting on an ice floe in the Arctic Circle. It sure beat working.

[A]

The way this guy wrote. This is hilarious, by the way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They. Do you know what a sloth bear is?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Mean as anything.

[C]

Yeah, there's. They're in Japan, right?

[A]

India. India and into Nepal in that area. Amazing. They're like a perfect example of not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight and the dog. Because they're not a very big bear, but they will take on tigers and everything else. They, A certain group, I don't know the name of them, a tribe, I think in India used to capture sloth bears and they'd put a ring in its nose, like a nose ring. And then this barbaric. It doesn't happen anymore. But then they would take the bear onto the street. As a street performer, I just read about this. And they would light a fire and put like a big sheet metal over it and then walk the sloth bear onto it. So the bear would dance because its feet were burning. Yeah. And yeah, they called it the dancing bears, I guess. I guess it was in Nepal. And. Yeah. Horrific thing that people used to rude. Imagine doing that though, and being like, oh, this will be. This will be worth a shilling or two.

[C]

Like, well, bear baiting. They used to do that with dogs. They used to have a chained up bear and they would allow dogs to fight the bear.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[C]

They did that with bulls. Yeah, you know, they have a chained up bull and have dogs attack the bull.

[A]

Yeah, they used. In South Africa in the early colonial days, they used to do it with baboons and let the dogs and the Baboons fight and bet money on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

People are so gross.

[A]

It's crazy. But you know, like, I always have this weird stance. Do I agree with any of it? Of course not. But we wouldn't be where we were and care about wildlife and conservation if we hadn't made some of those mistakes.

[C]

Is that what that is, a mistake? I mean, it's also. If you hadn't seen half of your friends get cut in half by swords, you're probably the. Like, your understanding of the value of life is probably completely distorted.

[A]

Completely. Yeah.

[C]

You're living in a horrific time. Everyone's dying of the plague.

[A]

Violence is entertainment.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? Like, that is something to do and life value is incredibly low.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Life comes and goes.

[C]

The Coliseum was. When, when was that?

[A]

I don't know. I should, but I don't.

[C]

I think it was 2000 plus years ago somewhere around there when they first started having these. These crazy games there.

[A]

Do you know they used to flood the Coliseum and do ship battles and things.

[C]

I went there a few years back and we went on a tour.

[A]

Was it cool?

[C]

Oh, it was amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it's also like you stand there and you try to take it in. Like when I go to these ancient places, I try to just like sit and just try to imagine like when you're actually. It's one thing to imagine when you're looking at a photograph or a video, but when you're actually in the spot.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know like when you're in Athens.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you like. Yeah. Standing at the Parthenon. Okay. What the was this like?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

What was this like?

[A]

And that was like the center of everything.

[C]

Everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Democracy.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

And also drugs. Those guys were high as they were all doing drugs because we went to Ulysses Elusis rather. And that's the place where they had the Eleusinian mystery schools. And they would. People would go on this trek where they wouldn't eat and they'd walk from Athens and they would have these psychedelic rituals and you know, you're in this place where they did it. You could like feel it. It's weird.

[A]

Well, I mean, obviously not synthetic, but were they. Was it just mushrooms? What were. What were these psychedelics?

[C]

Totally. No, but they have had residue from some of these clay pots that had ergot in it.

[A]

What's ergot?

[C]

So ergot is a fungus that has a very similar psychoactive effect. Effect as lsd.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

It's. I think it has lysergic acid in it. Like what? Let's find out what the. What, what? Actually, it also kills people. There's been cases of ergot poisoning through wheat.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

People have died. And they also think it's connected to the Salem Witch Trials.

[A]

Oh, driving people crazy.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, so this Salem Witch Trials, I don't know if this has been proven or if this is just a theory, but the idea is that if you have an early frost and that some of the wheat survives, but the wheat can have this fungus on it that grows ergot. Okay, so this, this ergot fungus. And so you're eating this wheat and you're making beer out of it and like everybody's tripping balls. I think everybody's a fucking witch. They really draw all that on accidental acid.

[A]

That's hilarious. Yeah, probably. Like, man, this beer is really good. Right? Until there's a witch. And then you're like, man, this beer's bad.

[C]

Well, there's also, I mean, imagine first of all, you've got a bunch of, of crazy superstitions and people are afraid of everything already. Right. You don't know anything about science.

[A]

You don't understand a thing. Yeah.

[C]

So there's a lot of fears and then there's a lot of people that claim to be the wise people of the, of the town and they tell you crazy stories about witches and you're like, oh, witches are real?

[A]

Yep. Oh, for sure.

[C]

So lysergic acid, amides, ergo, metrine. All these share lysergic acid, ergolene core. Which is why lsd, semi synthesized from lysergic acid is chemically related to ergot compounds.

[A]

And all of this comes from that mold on the wheel.

[C]

Yeah. Wasn't there a time where they, they did it to people on purpose in France? I feel like this might have been like a CIA thing. See if you can find that story.

[B]

God.

[A]

Or lsd Ergot.

[C]

I think they, they, they, they. Because I think they were experimenting on the effects of ergot and I think they like picked a town and said, let's see. Because we know they've done that before.

[A]

We definitely know they've like just hit whole places.

[C]

Yeah, let's see, let's see. Yeah, why not like think about like what we found out during MK Ultra, that the CIA was running brothels and they would give the John's lsd.

[A]

Really?

[C]

It was literally called Operation Midnight Climax. And so what they would do is they would have these two way mirror. This is proven. This is a guy Named Jolly west, who's the head of MK Ultra.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Who would they say? Let's find out what happens. Do you give people acid? What's the best way? Well, you get a bunch of people and do it to them in a way that, you know, totally unethically. But this is a way they're not going to tell. Yeah, you did it to them because they went to a whorehouse. Like, no one's going to admit they

[A]

went to a whorehouse.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So you get these guys, they go to the get to prostitute the prostitutes. Like, would you like a drink? Like, oh, I love it.

[A]

Of course. Yeah.

[C]

Hard day at work? Yeah, hard day at work. Here the guy sits down, he's thinking, I'm gonna. This is gonna be great.

[A]

Next thing, the walls are balls. Oh my God.

[C]

Candles. Talking to him. Do you find anything about the French thing here? It is likely. Think of the infamous Saint Espri cursed bread incident of 1951. Long running allegation that wasn't ergot at all, but a secret CIA US Army LSD experiment. Government. What happened in Pont Saint Esprit, this small town in southern France? Hundreds of residents suddenly suffered violent hallucinations, convulsions, insomnia and psychotic episodes. Over several days, 250 people were affected. Fifty were committed to asylums. Seven died, including some who leapt from windows convinced they could fly or being chased by snakes and tigers. The official French investigation blamed ergot. Contaminated rye flower from a local Baker. Classic ergotism. St. Anthony's fire. That's another case of it. Some later scientists propose. Or maybe the same story. Some later scientists propose alternative culprits. Mercury, fungicide, nitrogen trichloride, bread bleaching agents or mycotoxins from Aspergillus fumigatis. Fumigatus.

[A]

I call bullshit on this. This seems like something where they test.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it seems like a CIA thing. 2009, American investigative journalist HP Albert Albarelli. Albarelli Jr published a terrible mistake, arguing that Ponce Esprit was actually a covert LSD field test run jointly by CIA's MK.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

MK Ultra Programs and the US Army Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick with Swiss drug company Sandoz, who first synthesized lsd, allegedly supplying the compound. So his evidence included a declassified CIA document quoting a Sandoz representative saying the Pont Saint Esprit secret is being discussed alongside references to lsd. Oh, they definitely did it.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds way more likely.

[C]

That's way more likely. A testimony he attributed former CS CIA sod scientist Frank Olsen, who died in a 1953 fall from a New York City hotel room after being dosed with LSD by his colleagues. What a bunch of these guys just dosing each other. It admitted MK ULTRA incident. Interviews with former US intelligence officials.

[A]

Why?

[C]

Most historians remain skeptical. Serious pushback came quickly. So symptoms don't match LSD victims had gangrene like vasoconstriction. Weeks long psychosis and physical necrosis consistent with ergot alkaloids. Not a single acute LSD dose. Interesting. LSD is water soluble and heat sensitive, so baking bread would degrade it. The Sandos cable Albert Albarelli cited is ambiguous and predates the incident in some readings. No corroborating documentation has surfaced despite extensive MK Ultra declassifications since the 1970s church committee hearings. Yeah, but the problem with that is like one of the. One of the reasons why we know about MK Ultra was evidence that they found that had been in storage. So you know when you say like Freedom of Information act, they don't give you.

[A]

They just bait you with a little bit here and there to go. Oh, okay, we know now tells you. You.

[C]

We don't have any evidence. Go yourself. I mean, look how hard it is to get the Epstein files. This is a guy that was alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In 2019.

[A]

Right, right. Where there were plenty of records of everything happening. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

And the Internet.

[A]

This.

[C]

Right.

[A]

This reminds me. Do you know about the Lyme disease?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know about this, like the Plum island thing? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Seems very.

[A]

I like, I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist. This one to me is like a no brainer.

[C]

Well, it's also. People want to say that Lyme disease has existed forever. Ever. Absolutely true. Not to the extent that it exists today. Also not as contaminant. Like not. Not as. Right.

[A]

And spreading like crazy. Like crazy. Like it's crazy. Sweeping out west.

[C]

Not only that, Plum island, they were absolutely doing gain of function research on ticks. And the idea was the reason why they were doing it. And this is. This is all me, what I've read. I don't have any direct information.

[A]

Yeah, but it's still fun.

[C]

But what they said was what they were doing was engineering ticks with these diseases. So what they could do is they could spray them from planes and they would overwhelm the medical system of any. Like, overwhelm a town. That's right. Overwhelm their armies. You. You couldn't keep up. And it would. They wouldn't be able to fight.

[A]

That's right. And it could wipe out food. Sources. It had like multiple implications. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[C]

So now we have these fucking creeps from the World Economic Forum that are talking about the dangers of eating meat, right? And about how people eating meat is what's wrong with the. That's why it's accelerating climate change. All horseshit. But they're saying it, and they're saying that it's almost a moral obligation to create a tick or to create more ticks that would have this alpha gal in them.

[A]

The one that makes you allergic to meat.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So they're saying that they want more of that.

[C]

Yes, bro. This guy was talking about. Not only that, I have a buddy who has it. My friend Evan from Black Rifle Coffee.

[A]

He's talking. Oh, yeah, I know Evan. Yeah.

[C]

One of my best friends. Love him to death. Evan has it bad and it him up. It's not as simple as you're. He's allergic to red meat. Like, it up all of his blood work, his body's a mess.

[A]

And he picked it up hiking and hunting picked it up.

[C]

He got a tick and he didn't know and he got. He got bit. My friend Burt Kreischer, his wife's family, half of them have this fucking problem.

[A]

No way.

[C]

Yeah. Are they from the east coast?

[A]

Tennessee.

[C]

This. It's the Texas Lone Star tick. It's a Lone Star tick.

[A]

It's called.

[C]

Not the Texas Lone Star, but this one tick carries this thing and they think that that might perhaps be genetically engineered as well. It's crazy, because there was no alpha gal problem 30, 40 years ago. It just didn't exist. Now all of a sudden, it's like ubiquitous.

[A]

And it's everywhere. It's spreading too. It's y crazy. I. I never used to think twice about getting a tick. I get ticks all the time. Hiking around, doing the stuff I do. I never used to think twice about. Now I'm terrified of.

[C]

I, yeah, I love red meat.

[A]

I'm terrified of it now.

[C]

It's not just red meat. The Lyme disease is devastating.

[A]

You don't catch it early, it can fuck with you the rest of your life.

[C]

Yeah, I know multiple people that have it, including Jim Miller, guy who fights in the ufc. He had it really bad. Geez. And it fucked up his career for quite a while. But he got his diet under raps and he figured out, like, what to eat, what not to eat, and now he's fine.

[A]

Do you know about some of those other animal warfare things they used to do, like the spy tech they put in city cats do you know about this?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh dude. There's some amazing ones.

[C]

Spy tech and cats.

[A]

So During World War II, Jamie would have to confirm what city this was in. I believe it was the Russians used to put little hearing devices in street cats because the Brits would go and meet in back alleys and have meetings. But they were feral cats everywhere. So they'd have all these cats running around with these wires in their brains and stuff and these little acoustic kitties. That's it. The CIA.

[C]

Dude.

[A]

How crazy is this?

[C]

Acoustic Kitty was a Central Intelligence Agency project launched by the Directorate of Science and Technology in the late 1960s. In the 1960s, intended to use cats to spy on the Kremlin in Soviet embassies.

[A]

In an hour long procedure, a veterinary surgeon implanted a microphone in the cat's ear canal and a small radio transmitter at the base of of its skull and a thin wire into its fur.

[C]

Oh my God.

[A]

How crazy. Imagine that you're just like having a secret meeting in a back cove, you know, back alley and there's a cat there. Just livestreaming your conversation to the CIA.

[C]

Go back up a little bit here it says do the cat. Sense of hunger had to be addressed in another operation. What interesting. First Acoustic Kitty mission was an eave drop on two men in a park outside the Soviet Embassy in Washington D.C. the cat was released nearby but was hit and allegedly killed by a taxi almost immediately. It's probably the thing was all up. I probably couldn't get out. It's like what is in my head. They put a wire in my head. Schizophrenic cat. However, this is disputed in 2013 by Robert Wallace, a former director of the Office of Technical Service who said the project was abandoned due to the difficulty of training the cat to behave as required and that the equipment was taken out of the cat. The cat was re sewn for a second time. Time and live for a long and happy life afterwards.

[A]

Lies.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

Killed that cat.

[A]

It got hit by a taxi but it was fine and they took it out of its head.

[C]

But I mean more than one cat, I'm sure. But. But this idea. The equipment was taken out of the cat. The. You did that?

[A]

You.

[C]

You spent money taking the equipment out. Did you really? Or did you just kill the cat? 100 dude.

[A]

There's a few of these. And the. The bats that would light fires. You know about those ones?

[C]

Hold up. The military did not give up on its use of animals as spies. As in 2006, the Pentagon requested the creation of A cyborg. Cyborg. Insects. For use in espionage. The request was made by fucking darpa, of course.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Of the Pentagon. Scientists at Cal Berkeley responded by creating a controllable cyborg beetle in October of 2009. What? There's a.

[A]

There's a cockroach under your carpet here listening to us somewhere right now.

[C]

Now they're not going to hear anything other than the stuff we already talk about.

[A]

Yeah, true, true, true.

[C]

The wonderful thing about having such a show.

[A]

Who cares?

[C]

Whoa. Look at this, look at this, look at this. It's a battery in the Beetle.

[A]

Come on. That's badass. Look at the microchip on its back.

[C]

It's amazing that the beetle can live through all this.

[A]

It's pretty amazing.

[C]

That's wild.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I guess as these things have gotten smaller and smaller, as chips and battery technologies increase.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Think of. Think of your cell phone in 09 compared to now. Right? Yeah.

[C]

Fucking wild, man.

[A]

Yeah. There were a few of these. They used to light bats on fire and then they'd send them to roost and then they'd burn down whole towns and things like that. That's going back even. Dude, there's spy pigeons where they put cameras. Like, there's a. There's a handful of these that the CIA tried.

[C]

Well, how about what they did with dolphins?

[A]

Oh, like the. Well, you know, the whole.

[C]

The.

[A]

Not beluga. What's. Yeah, it was the beluga, the Russian spyway whale.

[C]

I don't know that I was talking about dolphins. They use to detonate things.

[A]

Oh, tell me about it.

[C]

They use dolphins as like literal distributors of warheads.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Get a dolphin to go somewhere and then they blow them up.

[A]

No way. Like a kamikaze dolphin.

[C]

I don't know the exact details of it because I got sad when I was reading about it. I have a deep attachment to dolphins. I love dolphins.

[A]

I always say anybody who hates dolphins has to be a bad person.

[C]

I've had some experiences with them. I had one where I was like really high on edibles in Hawaii. And the dolphins would jump out of the water near the boat and they look at you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They look at you when they were jumping out of the water. Like, look. Look at me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, look, we're doing this thing and

[A]

they're literally just playing.

[C]

They're playing?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

100 playing. Because they came to the boat and they were jumping in the wake of the boat. And the more you would cheer and yay, look at that.

[A]

The more they did.

[C]

They were doing that and they were Having fun. And I was like, these people are incredible creatures.

[A]

Oh, they totally pick up on your energy.

[C]

So the secret dolphin program began in 1959 to detect underwater mines and enemy divers. But I think they did stuff where they.

[B]

You mean whether this is correct or

[A]

they just like the ones.

[B]

The history. It says that they didn't do anything to harm humans or engage in combat. They, like, told their handlers to do it.

[A]

The one that I've heard of is that they put him out ahead.

[B]

It was signifying in dark water, because they could see stuff better than our current technology back then. So they would echolocate and say, yo, we got something over here, Come check it out. That's what this.

[C]

Well, how's the dolphin communicate that back to the people? And how does it know what the person's intended? That's pretty good. I think there was some speculation that they actually used them as weapons, though.

[A]

Well, have you seen valds? Not to transition off dolphins, but. Valdemir. Valdemir, the Vladimir.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Don't.

[A]

I don't know. The Russian spy. Beluga.

[C]

No.

[A]

Okay, this is a real thing, like 100%. This one's real. So there was this beluga whale named Valdemir or Vladimir or something like that. And he turned up in Norway and he was escaped from a Russian spy program. And he had a harness with spy gear on him. This is him right here. Look. See the spy gear on him? It's like a whole thing. And so the Russians had been training this whale as a spy and had harnesses and spy equipment on him. And then he just peaced out and turned up in, I want to say, Norway. And then they followed him for a while. And then he mysteriously got shot.

[C]

Yeah, mysteriously.

[B]

Yep. Some things with the dolphin, like, with the dolphin story. I don't know if this is accurate, but I did read this one time that we would like, with. If we knew Russia was doing this, we would put some paperwork out that said, well, we've got dolphins that are blowing up mines. Just so you guys, now we gotta figure that out. Goose chases.

[C]

That's a good point. That's a good point. It's like you never really know what's real.

[A]

Right.

[C]

How cool the beluga whales look, though. Look at that thing that looks like an alien.

[A]

Ah, they're super, super.

[C]

I mean, look at that. That looks like if we have come to your planet, they're discuss your use of nuclear power.

[A]

And he would talk in that very calm tone.

[C]

That looks like something that would be very calm.

[A]

No, that was A. Yeah, this was a crazy.

[C]

Well, you know the John Lilly research with dolphins? Do you know about that?

[A]

I'm not sure.

[C]

Okay. John Lilly is the guy who invented the sensory deprivation starvation tank.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You have one of those, don't you? Yeah.

[C]

Yes, we have one over here. John Lilly was the man who was the inspiration for the movie Altered States. Okay, so John Lilly, who was this really interesting guy and was famously, like, out there with psychedelics. Like, he would. He would take intramuscular doses of ketamine and jump in the sensory deprivation tank.

[A]

Oh, damn.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Trying to unlock lock brain things.

[C]

My friend Todd actually did it with him.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Yeah. So John Lilly, who was also a pioneer in interspecies communication, so they were trying to figure out how to communicate with dolphins. So they set up a house, and this lady lived with the dolphins in the house to get the dolphin and try. Trying to coach the dolphin. And the way, like, literally, she lived in water. So the water was, like, you know, four feet deep, and she lived with this dolphin. The problem was the dolphin was super horny.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

So the only way that she could get this dolphin to cooperate was she had to jerk him off.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

So she was jerking off the dolphin, and somehow or another they found out and they cut the funding for research.

[A]

But she had to do it.

[C]

That's what I said.

[A]

You got to do it. That's the job.

[C]

It seems like she liked it, though. Look at her. The way she's hugging him. She's like.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, after a while, she probably did enjoy it a little bit.

[A]

I mean, what else are you gonna do? You're stuck in a tank with a dolphin.

[C]

The girl who talked to dolphins. So is there a document on this?

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Ooh, let's. Is there a clip? Is it, like, blurry where you see

[A]

her hand moving up and down, water turning white?

[C]

So I guess. But if she jerked the dolphin off, then the dolphin would try to talk to her. But the thing was, you can't really get them to. They can't make the noises that we want them to make. They don't have the ability, like, you could say, but it can't.

[A]

Like, the vocal cords aren't there for it. That's one of the things where AI may actually start to make a huge difference.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, Right. Because they are able to decipher a lot of cetacean, like, dolphin and whale language now. And with enough of a database, they'll start to be able to say, like, this means this. This means this.

[C]

Have they Actively deciphered.

[A]

So it's coming up to. So basically, you know, AI works. You have to train it on something.

[C]

Is this the lady?

[B]

I think so.

[C]

She looks like the kind of lady that would do that.

[A]

She's got a real dolphin jerk look to her.

[C]

This is such a crazy story. Listen to these orca whales imitate human speech.

[B]

No, says it's responding.

[C]

Let me hear it.

[A]

Oh, there's your guy.

[C]

There's my guy.

[A]

Yeah, let me hear it.

[C]

Bye bye, bye, bye.

[A]

A. It's getting there.

[C]

It's trying.

[A]

Yeah. Amy. Whoa.

[C]

Hello.

[A]

It's amazing.

[C]

Wa, one, two. I bet what it wants to say is, let me go, you fucking asshole. Put me back in the ocean.

[A]

You crazy? Yeah, quit jerking me off and put me back in the ocean.

[C]

Maybe if they jerked off the killer whales, they wouldn't have killed them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, good point.

[C]

It's like, like, just like SeaWorld alone. It's just. It's so awful. And it wasn't until the, those, that documentary, what was it called?

[A]

Blackfish.

[C]

Blackfish, yeah. That was like the first one where

[A]

people when, like, it was really eye opening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We shouldn't support this at all. I mean, I can't believe people still even go to fucking SeaWorld.

[A]

It's pretty crazy, you know, Basically prison. Do you know about those two in France that are trapped there?

[C]

No.

[A]

Oh, this is interesting. So there is basically a sea world equivalent in France and the government shut it down. I forget the. I'm sure we can figure it out. But it was shut down, but then the dolphins and the two orcas were not released. And the guy's like, these are mine, I'm not releasing them. And I can't afford to release them or move them them. So they've just been sitting in these abandoned tanks for, I want to say, a year now, maybe, maybe more. Yeah, this is it here. The race to save these two. Jamie, I don't know if you can see if there's an aerial shot of it, but. Yeah, so they're just sitting in this thing, but. But it's closed. The guy can't afford to feed them because nobody's visiting. And then I believe the government just doesn't want to do anything about it because they're like, we just wanted to shut you down. We don't want to actually, like do anything about it. So there's just these two orcas sitting in these tanks and how they get food, I mean, he's feeding them, but he's like doing it out of his pocket. And it's like, few and far between.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

So, yeah, it's. It's a crazy. They're. They're. Yeah, the abandoned whales, and they're just sitting in these tanks.

[C]

We've had a. Do you know Phil Demers is. He's a guy who. He helped shut down Marine Land in Canada.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[C]

Which was an awful, awful place.

[A]

Bad facility.

[C]

There's so many of these places like that where you see what they're doing and just like, oh, man. If we could understand them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think someday in the future we're gonna look back at that the way people today look back at slavery.

[A]

Oh, totally.

[C]

We're gonna say, these are intelligent creatures. They just don't have the ability to manipulate their environment like we do. But, like, just dolphins, their cerebral cortex is 40% larger than a human being's. So something's going on in there. And you think it's okay to put them in a swimming pool? That's crazy, dude.

[A]

It's the same thing. Like what I was talking about. Elephants, their eq, their emotional intell. We can't even comprehend it, the way those animals feel. Like the highs that an elephant experiences and the lows it experience are way bigger than the highs or lows that most humans. I think any human can experience. Their EQ is way bigger than ours. The trauma that they feel from losing a loved one or from being abused or whatever it happens to be is like 10x what humans can even emotionally comprehend.

[C]

How do we know that?

[A]

Based on their brain scans and whatnot. I don't know the specifics of it, but. Because that part of their brain is so much larger than ours. Oh, and so you have these. They might not have the same, like, computer skills as we do mentally, but they have this emotional intelligence that's, like, so much deeper and broader than ours. At least that's my belief.

[C]

It is a weird thing with us where we only characterize intelligence as the ability to manipulate your environment.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like we want you to write a book.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I don't. I don't trust you. You're real. You're really smart. Make a house, why don't you? Why don't you? How come you don't have a rocket ship?

[A]

Right, Right.

[C]

You're so smart. Where's your phone?

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, it's weird. It's weird, right? It's a weird way to look at things.

[C]

Yeah. It's like. I think there's a part of people that recognize that this. This direction, that people like that, this classification of intelligence in that way is. Is wrong. But I don't. I don't think we can really quantify it yet. And if AI really can decipher dolphin language, Orca language, whale language, if they really can and we realize that they're actually communicating, thinking, God, I would hope that would change our approach to how we deal with those things. I think it would, because there's. I think they are sea people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They're just. They don't need to manipulate their environment. First of all, they can travel 3D.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They go up, they go down, they go across. They can hold their breath for an hour. They don't need to make a house.

[A]

No.

[C]

Their food is everywhere. Also. They're at the top of the food chain.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

They're orcas and they're.

[A]

No, they're nomad. They don't. They don't. We are not nomadic by trade, so we have to manipulate our environment to make it more comfortable or because they're not low. Yeah.

[C]

We move so fast, they can make a sunfish explode.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We're so slow, like the fastest people. Like, we just run into each other and knock each other unconscious. That's. That's what we could do.

[A]

Fun to watch though, dude. But I want to go back to what you said about. I, I agree, by the way, about orcas and captivity and whales and things like. Like that there's this huge anti zoo movement that I just don't agree with, though. Like, I, I believe, I agree with you that in the future we'll go, why did we keep animals the way we did? And when you look at old zoos and concrete boxes and stuff, but there's so much good that animals in captivity have done, saving species, keeping things alive, connecting kids to nature. There's a. Is a lot of gray area. There's Tiger King and there's fucking San Diego Zoo. You know what I mean? There's a lot of new nuance to it.

[C]

San Diego Zoo is an excellent example of a really great zoo.

[A]

It's unbelievable.

[C]

It's incredible. I've been to that place before. Yeah, but I also went to that wolf place with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that made me sad.

[A]

I know. Yeah, I know.

[C]

We went there. I was bummed out, man.

[A]

But at least they're rescuing them, you know?

[C]

Like, I know, but they also cut their balls off.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That bummed me out hardcore.

[A]

Otherwise they all fight. I mean. But that's the gray area that you have. Like, what's the alternative?

[C]

You know, it's like they Die, let them loose.

[A]

But then none of. But only a few of them were pure wolves. You can't just let loose a wolf dog, you know, because then you're muddying jeans. It's such a complicated thing.

[C]

Well, isn't that the whole reason why black wolves exist in the first place? I think black wolves exist because it's a trait that they got from domesticated dogs.

[A]

I read that and then I read it was false and then I read it again. I don't know what the truth behind that is.

[C]

Let's put it into perplexity. We should. They'll probably say it's a Roganesque claim

[A]

as stated on today's podcast.

[B]

Word that. So you kind of get a good.

[C]

That's interesting. How do you word that? Would you say, is it true that black wolves inherited that trait from domesticated dogs? Because that is one thing that absolutely has happened is that there's been interbreeding between.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[C]

And not just on purpose.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it happened. Yeah. I mean you get toy wolves and. Yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah. Is the genetic mutation of a black fur color brought about by domestication?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Hold on, sorry.

[A]

Throwing a lot at you, Jamie.

[C]

Is it. Is the black. The trait of black wolves, did they inherit that from domesticated dogs?

[B]

Edit my thing, then click good enough or not

[C]

from domesticated dogs.

[A]

I would. Yeah, yeah. See? See what it says?

[C]

Let's say do, do, do.

[B]

Not pointed enough. It'll start guessing.

[C]

I love watching it work where it's like spinning. Yes, this is well supported by genetic research. Black coat color in North American wolves comes from mutation in the K locus especially specifically. Excuse me, a three base pair deletion in the CBD 103. I don't know what that little thing is.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know.

[C]

Defense in gene beta, which is that what it is?

[A]

I think so.

[C]

Produces a dominantly inherited melanistic phenotype. The mutation originated in dogs and moved into wolves through hybridization, not the other way around.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

2009 study by Anderson et al. First identified the KB Black allele in wolves is derived from dog wolf interbreed breeding. Follow up work analyzing 331 wolves and 20 dogs found that North American wolf. How do you say that word? Haplotypes.

[A]

Oh, haplotype, yeah.

[C]

Are monophyletic, meaning a sing. I feel like you're my teacher. A single. Good job. Introgression event from dogs most likely seeded the allele through the continent, probably in the Yukon or north Northwest Territories. You know, I Went to where Colossal.

[A]

I know.

[C]

Made the dire.

[A]

Ben texted me when you guys went.

[C]

That was a. Interesting experience.

[A]

Was that cool to see?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I haven't even seen him. I know. It's a whole hush hush.

[C]

I brought my youngest daughter and she was cuddling with the four month old wolf.

[A]

Well, there you go.

[C]

You can cuddle with them when they're four months old. Yeah, up until a certain point. But it was like a puppy.

[A]

And it was still huge, right?

[C]

It was. No, no, no, no, no. It was pretty small. Yeah, it's like £40, something like that. Okay. Cute, man. She was so sweet. She was so sweet. She would cuddle with you and you pet her and she'd kiss you.

[A]

That's cool.

[C]

It was like a dog, man.

[A]

That is Romulus. There you go. That is.

[C]

Oh, my God, she's so sweet. But the males, they had two males that had Khaleesi.

[A]

That's her name.

[C]

That's right. Khaleesi's the girl. So there's Romulus. Look how cute they are. When they did a baby Remus. Romulus. And then Khaleesi girl, that was pretty cool. So Khaleesi was the one that we got to the cuddle with.

[A]

Man, they're cute.

[C]

Oh, my God, she was so adorable. But you could only hang out with her for a little while and then they got big.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And now they're big.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He sends me pictures. So they were like that when we went there.

[A]

Like that size.

[C]

Picture that size.

[A]

That's already males. I don't know if I let my kids in with a wolf that size.

[C]

Well, they kept away from you. And we were in a large contained area, but. But we got to go out with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they just kind of hang out and look at you. They keep away from you for the most part. But she didn't.

[B]

She just.

[C]

But she can't be with them yet.

[A]

With the males.

[C]

Yeah, she was too little.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

She's too like, you know, they didn't want her to get killed and just, just too sketchy. She was tiny.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And she was, you know, she was still a baby. Still. But they were older. I think they were a year or close to a year. But they could hang out with them for the first like five or six months, I think. And after a while they just got different. There's also some stuff about them that they didn't even know. Dire wolves had like the mane, which is.

[A]

They're getting a big arch.

[C]

They have a mane.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Like almost like A lion's mane.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Which they didn't know. And they didn't know they were going to be white either.

[A]

Now, is that a variant from their genetic mutation work or is that something that's just expressing itself?

[C]

Very good question. That you'd have to talk to a geneticist about because, like, there's a lot of people that don't even agree they're actually dire wolves.

[A]

A lot. Yeah, a lot.

[C]

They're essentially saying that what you've done is you've taken the traits of dire wolves and you've made them be expressed in a gray wolf. This is a gray wolf.

[A]

But that's what Beth says they've done. You know what I mean? Like, they're not hiding that. They're like, we're trying to fill a niche, we're trying to make something.

[C]

Yes, but she's also said that, I think. I don't want to mischaracterize, but essentially what they're saying is. But that's what a dire wolf was, right? Like that they are a wolf that has all of these traits.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Like the size is the same, the look is the same. You can get technical and say, no, you've taken a gray wolf and made it express. But. Yeah, but they got those genes specifically from dead direwolves.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

So it's like, well, what it is it our own classification of these things that we're disputing.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Because we can't just decide like that this, I call this a direwolf. And that's what it is. Like the genes don't give a fuck what labels you put on.

[A]

Not at all.

[C]

You know, and if you make a dinosaur, like, that's not a real T. Rex. It ate everyone in the city.

[A]

Right?

[C]

It's a real T. Rex. It just took over a fucking city. It just ate everyone in a VW bus.

[A]

It's a 30 foot tall lizard. It's a dinosaur. Like it doesn't matter how you shape it. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, the woolly mouse is really cool too.

[A]

Yeah, they're really neat. Ben, Ben, Ben told me one day I could have a woolly mouse. So I'm holding him to that. Yeah, it's.

[C]

It's really interesting seeing the dire wolves though, and just imagining like, what was it like when those things are just roaming the earth. I know, because it's like a 200 pound wolf that's all white with like thick fur and a mane like a long lion.

[A]

Dude, speaking of roaming the earth, have you heard the theory about how sloth bears Stopped. Sorry. Not sloth bears. What were the big cave bears? Short face, short faced bears. Stopped human immigration. Yes. Have you read about that? Yeah, that's really cool.

[C]

Totally makes sense.

[A]

It totally does. They just stood there waiting for people like salmon to cross the Bering land bridge and they're like, well, it's that time of year again.

[C]

Also. Like, who would do that knowing that those things are out there? There. That thing was so big. Yeah. It's like double the size of a polar bear.

[A]

It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

[C]

Twice large polar bear that is, can run 50 miles. Look at that thing.

[A]

I don't care how smart we are, that is not something you want to face. Right.

[C]

Even if you have a gun, like good luck. Like if you have a 9 millimeter handgun and you run across a grizzly bear, you're dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's not going to be enough firepower.

[A]

No.

[C]

So what are you going to, what are you going to hit that thing with?

[A]

Well, they have rocks. So you know, that's good. Rocks and spears.

[C]

Yeah, rocks.

[A]

Oh, rocks.

[C]

I mean when they first started coming across, did they even have fucking bows and arrows that yet?

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, but I mean spears for sure, but like that.

[C]

But then there's the, there's the real question. Is that the only way people got here? When you see the white sands footprints that are 22,000 years old and you start going, okay, well this predates the ice age.

[A]

It's before any humans were known anywhere in the new world.

[C]

Yeah. So it's like, well, what's going on there? Because this is actual human footprints.

[A]

Right.

[C]

That have been dated to 22,000 years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's just all we found. Yeah, that's just because they left footprints.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like that doesn't mean there wasn't something there 50,000 years before. 100,000 years.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

And then there's in Mexico this evidence that looks like predation on mammoth bones by humans.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yes, Spearheads and things carvings into mammoth bones. It looks like they're broken open to get marrow. Oh, very disputed. Right. Because there's also also some people that think it could have been like some rocks falling on the bones.

[B]

I'm not sure how this is happening, but it does think that.

[C]

Oh, let me write this up for Joe Off.

[B]

I'm gonna have to figure something. I'm gonna erase some stuff.

[C]

What is it? We're gonna have to get a, a separate computer that we only use for perplexity. What is the question?

[B]

Oh, sorry. Well, how would humans have contested short face bears on the Bering Strait?

[C]

Look at. Let me write this up for Joe off man. Like a bit baby grabbed into the

[A]

actual evidence kept humans out of North America. Doesn't hold up any longer apparently.

[B]

So yeah. When I was people said it was a myth that someone, a scientist sort of commented on a paper that doesn't necessarily. He could have thought that but they didn't really have evidence for it.

[C]

Well here's the thing. Like the idea of a bare line. No, because the problem is bears, they would have to eat so much to sustain that kind of mass.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That there couldn't really have been a lot of them.

[A]

No. But it, it sure makes sense that they were predating upon people when they came across.

[C]

Oh hold up, hold up. Go back, back up here. This, this guy's saying something kooky. He's saying that hyper carnivore, built for pacing long distance. He argued that it was primarily a scavenger. Using its size, sense of smell and long legged gait to klepto parasite par parasitize.

[A]

You got it. There it is.

[C]

Kills from lions, dire wolves and scimitar cats rather than the rundown prey its itself. That doesn't even make sense. Long legged gate would make it faster.

[A]

I heard about this. So yeah, the theory is that short faced bear would come in and rob a kill. Like basically what a hyena does to

[C]

lions or what wolves do to mountain lions.

[A]

Yes. But I think it, to me it doesn't add up.

[C]

Well you know grizzly bears chase down moose and kill them. There's plenty of videos. I watched a video yesterday of it.

[A]

They've also shown now that hyenas are incredibly efficient predators. And in of terms until like 10 years ago we thought hyenas were only scavengers or 50. I mean it's longer than that but you know what I mean. Now they show they have like a 30% success rate which is very high.

[C]

Yeah. There's no reason why they wouldn't be. If they're carnivores like why would they be completely reliant on other animals to do the work for them when they have that kind of biting power?

[A]

They're just opportunistic like all carnivores.

[C]

And they move as packs.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They work as pack animals. So they kind of move like dogs.

[A]

If you're gonna get food, get food. Do you know what I mean? If you can kill it, kill it. If you can fight something off for it, fight something off for it. Like it doesn't really matter. That's how carnivore.

[C]

What does this change? What are you saying?

[B]

It says this is how they hunted brown bears. They probably would have done it the same way.

[C]

Oh, get him in the dens.

[B]

And then. Yeah, burn it. Burn the entrance with fire. Probably kill the babies.

[C]

Right, but that's if you had access to fire.

[B]

They had an adult and a spear at best, and maybe some fire that they could maybe move, you know, you

[C]

know how close you have to be to hit something with an adol.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. There's. There's some videos that are really interesting where they're showing people realistic scenarios where a bear is charging you and.

[A]

Oh, and they pull the ma out.

[C]

Yeah. Showing bear spray and guns. Like, showing them like a mat. Like, imagine you have a 10mm semi automatic pistol and you have to rack it. So you have to rack a slide. So the gun, the bear's coming. You have to draw the gun, rack it, take the safety off, and then point it towards the animal and squeeze it. Your. You're dead.

[A]

You're done.

[C]

You're already dead.

[A]

It's. It's like that.

[C]

It has to be like 100 yards away from you as it starts running for you to get a shot.

[A]

I think the, like idea is the bear gives you some sign.

[C]

Look at that ass thing.

[A]

I've tried one. It is impossible to throw accurately.

[C]

Well, that's true. But you're not practiced in it.

[A]

No, of course not.

[C]

Like. Yeah, I mean, I've seen people that are super accurate with spears.

[A]

Isn't your buddy Adam Greentree, doesn't he do the atlatl? He might.

[C]

He's such a psycho.

[A]

I think I've seen him talk.

[C]

He probably knows how to do it. Yeah, but I mean, pretty wild. It's not a good, good weapon. No, I mean, it's definitely better than no weapon, but I mean, what's the

[A]

advantage over throwing a spear? It just goes further.

[C]

Mechanical leverage.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's just. I have a thing like that for my dog. It's like a. It's like a thing with the ball that has a ball on the end of it. And you can. It's so easy to not blow your shoulder out. You can throw it pretty far.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that night, whenever, every time I do it, I was like, wow. Of course. This is way better.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Extra leverage with this thing. And then also you can kind of whip it with your wrist and you get all this action with the ball. You would do the same thing with a spear with a. Makes Sense. Yeah, makes sense.

[A]

Seems hard to be accurate, though.

[C]

Super hard. Well, it's hard to be accurate with a traditional bow.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, it's so hard. Like, you know, I shoot a compound bow and a compound bow is. There's so much technology involved.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

First of all, I have a laser range for finder and I, I arrange something, it says 52 yards. Then I go to my sight tape that's on my, my site on my bow, and I dial it to 52 yards. Because I use archery software that measures the weight of my arrow. So I have this 500 grain arrow and then it has the speed per. So it's 390ft per second for a 500 grain arrow. And then it, I put it into this computer and it spits out a sight tape so that I can move my pins specifically so I can put it in a quarter, 52 yards if I was accurate enough. I'm not. No one really is sure. Except like really excellent, world class archers.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

With a traditional bow, you're just guessing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So you're just guessing the arc of the arrow. And then you have to think, okay, I'm buying arrows, right. That are made by a guy who's measuring them. They're all down to like, they're within two grains of each other and they have like inserts. So my front of center is very high.

[A]

Perfect aerodynamics.

[C]

And they're made out of carbon fiber. These fucking arrows. They're making them by hand and then they're making the arrow heads by hand. Yeah. So they could be off.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Each one of them, like, so you're just guessing where that arrow is going to go. And you have to shoot every day to get a real sense of like, what the drop is at a certain distance. And then you have to kind of judge how far is he? Is he 20 yards, 30 yards, 50 yards? So even with modern traditional bows, that's like.

[A]

It sounds like a. Yeah, I know what you mean. Recurves and long bows.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

I mean it. That sounds like an oxymoron. But they are still traditional in the sense of you're not using cams.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

You don't have like a cam that rolls over and it's a mechanical advantage. Fiberglass limbs and all this ch. You're using like wood still. Right. Even with those things, you're still buying arrow arrows. And the arrows weigh the same amount.

[A]

Yeah, they're perfect.

[C]

So if you did that over and over again in your yard, you did it every day for three hours. A day you would get a sense of how far and then if you did it a bunch, you'd get an idea of judging distances and there's like little tricks.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

There's certain archery tournaments where you're not allowed to use a rangefinder.

[A]

Oh really?

[C]

Yeah. And so the idea is you have to develop the skill of being. And I think these tournaments probably start, started back when rangefinders didn't exist.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then when rangefinders did exist they're like nah, that's cheating, keep that out.

[A]

So and then the targets are at various.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so guys develop a very good way of measuring distance. Sure. And what essentially they do is they, they can pretty accurately judge 5 yards and then they double that and then they triple that and then they try to figure it and they get within like 10 or 15 yards.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

But you, you know that's a lot, a lot. Even with a compound bow, you know that drop of 10 or 15 yards is pretty significant. Even something that's going 300ft a second. But when you're doing with a wooden arrow that you made yourself with a stone tip like, like one of these bad boys. I have one here somewhere. Somewhere on this desk.

[A]

Yeah, here it is.

[C]

So like that, somebody made that. So if you make that one and then somebody else makes one right next to it, it makes might be 15 grains different, it might be 50 grains different.

[A]

And the aerodynamics are different. Like the, the flint napping is completely different. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

This thing's not very, that's not good. That thing would plain like a, if you shot it out of a really good bow.

[A]

And not to mention the stress of if I don't kill this thing I'm either going to die or I'm not going to eat or you know, all the other things.

[C]

And you have a 15 foot bear.

[A]

Right? Right.

[C]

Probably bigger. Like what was the height of a short faced bear or the length. Like what is the, what is a big short faced bear?

[A]

You seen those caves they have in like Missouri where they still claw marks from short faced bears and things.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh yeah. You can go visit like middens of them in Missouri where they used to out a cave.

[C]

Like a den.

[A]

Yeah. Where they lived in dens and you could see their claw marks in the mud and everything else. It's amazing.

[C]

11 to 12, 11 to 12ft. I, I think they probably have to be bigger than that because Kodiak bears get the, that big. Kodiak bears can get 12ft.

[A]

Do they, they get that big Kodiak

[C]

Yeah, I mean, maybe they're measuring them squirrely because, you know, like a lot of times they measure stuff to try to make it seem bigger. So what is the largest Kodiak bear ever killed? Let's look. Let's look that up. Largest Kodiak bear. Largest Kodiak bear ever killed. Ever recorded.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

Recorded the same thing. Okay. They have it by weight. It's 1656 pounds, which is, by the way. Oh, that's Lee.

[A]

It's insane. Yeah. Nearly a one ton bear. Yeah.

[C]

That's so crazy. The hind foot measured 18 inches. Oh, God. How tall was it? How long was it?

[B]

There's £500 more. More than that?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Well, it's over a ton in a zoo.

[B]

It was a zoo.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my God. But he might have been fat.

[A]

He was fat.

[C]

He might have been a short fat. So. What is the. So what is the longest, the largest length?

[A]

I'm pretty sure he's sitting. I think I've seen this bear and he's sitting in the Anchorage airport when you land there.

[C]

Oh, there's a big. Is that that bear?

[A]

I think that's the largest bear.

[C]

I've seen that. Yeah, I've seen that in Anchorage. Acreage. That's. That thing's nuts.

[A]

At the airport there.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It's in like a glass case or something.

[A]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the biggest bear ever. Ever shot.

[C]

Look at that one. Ever recorded 2130 pounds.

[A]

No, no, no length measurements anywhere.

[C]

It's insane how that is so big. That's so crazy. The short face bear, they're. They don't even really know how much it weighed. They're just basing it on the bone.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

They don't have a dead one now. So that. Right, that photo up there, that's Fred bear with his 1962 world record. Alaskan bear. Go back to that photo that you just were at before. Yeah, look at that. That's his stuffed bear.

[A]

Jeez.

[C]

He shot that with an old bullshit bow.

[A]

Yeah. Look at his bow, the recurve bow.

[C]

That bow sucks wooden arrows. That's so crazy. He was the first. First, like modern bow hunter.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, he's the guy who popularized bow hunting. Fred Bear is a legend.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

In the bow hunting world. And I mean, you gotta think how much, how good does life have to be where you go, let's try to do something that people used to do before guns.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just.

[A]

Just because.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It wasn't really a thing that People practiced.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like the food had to be so readily available that we had to say, let's make it harder.

[A]

Yeah. Go back.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Let's have so much food.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's make it more difficult.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then there's guys today that they don't like compound bows because they're too hot, they're too easy.

[A]

Yeah. They're using recurve only.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's crazy.

[C]

My friend Aaron Snyder, who's a like a world famous bow hunter, went back to using a recurve bow. Really, it was killing too many things with a compound bow. Felt like it was too easy.

[A]

But that's what happens. Right. Is these guys master their, their craft and when they spend all that time on it and then they're like, how do I make the challenge harder on myself?

[C]

Also they're competing with other world class bow hunters. Like, they're all like, who's the man?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bit of an ego stroke thing.

[C]

There's a little bit of that. But it's also like, that's how they get good in the first place. Like, there's a weird thing about people in competition. You can say competition is bad. Like, okay, are you saying that on your phone? Because how do you think you got a phone?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You got a phone because somebody's competing with other people and they developed a phone. It's just a different kind of competition.

[A]

I think competition is essential to human culture.

[C]

It's certainly essential to progress.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And this is why socialism is never going to work.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Got to reward people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If they're not rewarded, they're not going to work hard enough to do anything really spectacular.

[A]

Why bother?

[C]

So you're never going to get a laptop. It would have never happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You would have never had high speed Internet. Somebody has to profit wildly.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

For them to be enthusiastic about spending 17 hours a day making something like.

[A]

But that's the joy of competition paying off.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Is like, I know, not so much with bow hunting, but if you're competitive as a person to the point that you succeed the most at developing a phone or a cup or whatever it happens to be, you win and you get paid the most.

[C]

We just have to have regulations to make sure that those people don't run amok and then take over entire countries

[A]

and become a monopoly. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

What was going on with Microsoft in the 1990s? Remember all those? Remember that?

[A]

No. What was. How were they taking over?

[C]

Bill Gates was a maniac. Like, but before people think of Bill Gates now. Well, now I Think Covid kind of ruined his people's impressions of him. Can now they think of him as a vaccine pusher, but also as a philanthro capitalist where he's doing philanthropy that makes millions and millions of dollars for him.

[A]

Didn't he also put out that anti protein film? Wasn't that him? Do you know what I'm talking about? I think Bill Gates. Bill Gates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bill Gates wife is vegan, I believe. And he funded like some Netflix documentary all on how like bodybuilders get huge

[C]

without thinking about James Cameron. Cameron.

[A]

Am I thinking about James Cameron?

[C]

I know James Cameron's wife is vegan.

[A]

I might be mixing them up.

[C]

You're talking about game Changers. That the vegan documentary?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. With the huge jacked guy being like, I never touch protein.

[C]

It turns out the. The problem. I think if you're looking at that from an ethical perspective and you're saying factory farming is bad, I'm on your page.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

I'm with you.

[A]

But that had an agenda.

[C]

But yeah, it was a clear agenda also. Just not accurate.

[A]

Anyway, I pirated your thing on Bill Gates, though. Sorry.

[C]

So the point was, during the 1990s, he was. There was all these trials where they had these monopolistic practices.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And they were buying up competition or destroying competition. These.

[A]

Just anybody that developed any computer.

[C]

Yeah, anything. Anybody developed browsers that competed with, you know, Windows stuff. Yeah. Here is landmark 1990s trials refer to United States vs Microsoft Corporation. Massive antitrust lawsuit filed by US Department of Justice and 20 states. Key elements included browser war integration, the antitrust ruling and the appellate settlement. And so Everybody in the 90s thought of him as this guy who is this like, ruthless capitalist that was trying to destroy all the competition.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So he kind of reinvented himself.

[A]

Gotcha.

[C]

And the way he reinvented himself is first of all in. He donated an enormous amount of money to the media, so to NBC, cbs, cnn, all these different. They gave him hundreds of millions of

[A]

dollars just to fluff, just to kind

[C]

of say, guys, I'm your friend, I'm

[A]

your buddy over here.

[C]

And then he developed the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. And they were really concerned with global health.

[A]

Oh, my God. Dude, do you know what they did fucking in the Cabora Bassa Delta with their mosquito nets. Why would you. But do you know what I'm talking about at all?

[C]

What'd they do?

[A]

Dude, I'm gonna go on a fucking tirade here, okay? So the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation decided that there was too much malaria in Africa, right? Which you and I could probably agree with. Malaria is bad. So what did they do? They gave all of these people living in tribal villages. I've totally pirated your thing. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go on a fucking rant here. They gave all these people living in the Caborabasa Delta, which is the breadbasket of the Zambezi Valley, meaning, like, where more fish are born. It's a nursery for fish. Right. Not just there, but this is a good micro example. They gave millions of mosquito nets out to all these people to avoid malaria. Guess what the people who are starving to death did with their mosquito nets?

[C]

They fished with them.

[A]

They fished with them. Mosquito net has a hole that is so small that a mosquito can't get through. So guess what, Guess what. These mosquito nets now indiscriminately catch tiny baby fish in areas like Cabora Bassa, where the fish go to breed and reproduce and populate. So now all of a sudden, you have thousands and thousands of people that have been handed nets that have been living one way for hundreds of thousands of years. They don't give a shit about malaria. They have their own way of dealing with malaria. They sit in smoky huts at night, they sleep with a campfire. Everything else, yes, they still get malaria, some of them, but they deal with it their own way. Way. Bill Melinda Gates foundation come in, hand out millions of mosquito nets, absolutely collapse the entire population of fish that feed millions of people. Because these people just take the nets and fish all the baby fish out so that those fish don't grow up to make substantial protein sources. So now these wonderful philanthropists that have given out millions of nets have destroyed an ecosystem, crashed a fish population and created widespread hunger for people that otherwise had plenty of resources. Resources all because they were trying to help with their mosquito nets.

[C]

Oh, God.

[A]

It's just like. It's a fucking disaster, dude. They've taken such a rich and important part of Africa, one of the most abundant freshwater fisheries in the world, and destroyed it because they're helping by handing out mosquito nets. Good. Yeah, I know. Sorry. I told you. I go on a rant, but it's like. It's so bad what's happened over there. And they're still giving out mosquito nets. But by the way. And you literally watch these guys line up, take a mosquito net, and it never goes in their house. It goes straight to catching fish that are this big for them to eat.

[C]

Oh, God.

[A]

Sorry. I know. I mean, crazy.

[C]

It's so bad for them too. It's like, can you just double up the net thing and just get them other nets, too? Like, say, hey, guys, that's what happened in 2018.

[B]

They got the new nets.

[A]

Oh, is that what it says?

[B]

That's what that's. I'm looking at the thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's out other information.

[A]

It just totally ruined crash the ecosystem. It completely crashed it. And it created widespread high hunger in a place that had no hunger. So now you have people with malaria and hunger, and it's, like, done from a place of good intent, or maybe it isn't. And I think that's where you were

[C]

going, but I don't think it is. Yeah, I think it's a. It's a ruse. And I think what a lot of it is is this thing, like, we are doing philanthropy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But then you go, oh, but you're profiting. You're making hundreds of millions of dollars from this philanthropy, right? Yeah.

[A]

But you're buying goodwill.

[C]

And you're also on television promoting banks, vaccines. Like, why are you. You're a guy who didn't even graduate college. Yeah, Like, I don't. I mean, I don't even know if you made it out of high school. Like, he's a weird guy, obviously. Very smart.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[C]

But why? You're not a health expert. Why? And you look like. Like, why are you promoting health?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, this is Craig Global Health.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, just a weird guy, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The weirdest thing. Have you ever seen that? You know, he was obviously friends with Jeffrey Epstein or communicated with him and had some sort of a relationship? Yes.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[C]

Oh, yeah, it's popular.

[B]

Gotcha.

[C]

Well known.

[A]

I feel like everybody is connected to Epstein now. Like, I've lost track.

[C]

A lot of people were, but the craziest conversation was there was a woman who was asking him, did he regret his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? And he's just trying to say that the only reason why he talked to Jeffrey Epstein, because Jeffrey Epstein was gonna. He was gonna donate money to his philanthropy and all the different things that he's involved in, but it didn't work out. And I do regret it. And she. And she said, did you? I forget what her question was, But Gates says, well, he's dead now, so there's that. There's something about it is. You got to be careful. Like, it's like a weird, like, veiled threat. It's very odd the way he answers the question.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Essentially saying that. I'm reading it like you got whacked. Yeah, like, that's what I'm reading.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Weird find that.

[A]

That I was sure. While you find that, I was talking to some buddies about this. You know, just like standard bro chat. If. If Epstein happened today, right. And you had no knowledge of the weird stuff going on on the island, like, you would be invited. You know what I mean? They'd be like, hey, Joe, they did invite me. Oh, really?

[C]

Oh, yeah. 2017 to the island. I'm like, not to specifically. Yeah, but to meet Epstein.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying. And I was like, what if that happened today? Some guy came to me. Oh, sorry. Let's do it. Reported at that time that you had a number of meetings with Jeffrey Epstein, who, when you met him 10 years ago, he was convicted of soliciting prostitution from minors. What did you know about him when you were meeting with him? As you've said yourself, in the hopes of raising money.

[C]

You know, I had dinners with him. I regret doing that. He had relationships with people he said, you know, would give to Global health, which is a interest I have. You know, not nearly enough. Philanthropy goes in that direction. You know, those meetings were. Were a mistake. They didn't result in what he purported. And I cut them off. You know, that goes back a long time ago now. There's, you know, so there's nothing new on.

[A]

It was reported that you continue to meet with him over several years and that, in other words, a number of meetings. What did you do when you found out about his background?

[B]

Well,

[C]

you know, I've said I regretted having those dinners, and there's nothing, absolutely nothing new on that.

[A]

Is there a lesson for you for. Or anyone else looking at this?

[C]

Well, he's dead, so, you know, in general, you always have to be careful. And, you know, the, you know, I'm very proud of what we've done in philanthropy, very proud of the work of the foundation.

[B]

Weird.

[C]

Listen, first of all, it's a record scratcher. You have billions of dollars, right? And this guy didn't give you money for years, Right.

[A]

And you still give him money for years.

[C]

You kept media.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What about your money? Like, what is it? What is he going to give you? How much does he get? How much does he have?

[A]

Especially compared to Bill Gates.

[C]

But he also probably doesn't have a fraction of what you have.

[B]

Right?

[C]

So, like, if, like, Elon started hitting me up to donate money to something, I'd be like, hey, bitch, why don't you.

[A]

Dude, do you know how much money

[C]

you have so much money. Why would you. Why would you ask?

[A]

I'm the wrong guy if he kept

[C]

meeting with me for years. For years to try to get me to donate? Like, it's kind of similar. Right? This is what we're doing. Talking about. He's a billionaire, Right? Like hundreds of billions of dollars.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

None of it makes any sense. The guy was providing a party for rich people. That's what he was doing. He was providing a way where these rich people can let their hair down and have a good old time and do coke or whatever they did.

[A]

That's all it was, really. Right. It was just a come. But the party had no rules. And that's what makes it.

[C]

I'm just guessing. I'm just guessing, but I had a guy who tried to get me to meet him in 2007. 17.

[A]

In LA or where?

[C]

Well, I was in LA.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

When he reached out to me. Epstein appeared to have drafted himself, claiming Gates had. Oh, yeah.

[B]

He wrote it to himself.

[A]

Right.

[C]

This is an email that Epstein appears to have drafted to himself, claiming that Gates had contracted an STI from encounters with Russian girls and hid antibiotics from Melinda Gates. Said the emails were never sent and are false. False. His spokesman called them absolutely absurd. So absurd that someone could get an STD from a Russian girl. Gates has separately admitted to affairs with two Russian women and with a Microsoft employee, but says none of them are connected to Epstein or his victims.

[B]

Some people say those emails were like a journal he was keeping.

[A]

Why would you keep email himself?

[B]

Well, he wrote on an iPad all the time. Apparently. That's why the typos are so bad. And he just liked email. You know, that's.

[C]

You know, I mean, imagine that's your journal. But why would you do that? Why would you make up a story about a guy having STDs? I think more likely because. So there was a rumor. And this is a. It's an unsubstantiated rumor. I want to be real clear that. That Epstein was trying to blackmail Gates with some story about a bridge player. That he was having an affair with hot Russian bridge player.

[A]

I also think they've intentionally flooded the Internet with so much misinformation.

[C]

Perhaps. But my point was if he could have drafted that email. Which was never sent.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then sent the draft to Bill Gates. Or showed it to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And say.

[A]

I see.

[C]

What do you think about this?

[A]

Right.

[C]

I could just.

[A]

If you don't. Yeah.

[C]

How about you shut the fuck up? Yeah. Give me some money. How about you? You know, it's a bull play. There was a bunch of. Well, there was a bunch of people that gave him a lot of money.

[A]

Of money. They gave Einstein a lot of money.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, the guy, the Victoria Secrets guy, gave him a house. He gave him a house.

[B]

Control of 100% of his finances. So it wasn't just. He gave it to him. Oh, 100% taking it or you know, and he goes like, I didn't know what he was doing.

[A]

Wait, so did Epstein fund that house?

[C]

Right?

[A]

Did he fund the Victoria's Secret guy to start Victoria's Secret?

[C]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

That's how he got involved. After that guy's. This goes real deep. So Columbus, this guy got. He was going to go to talk to the IRS about specifically what, I don't know, 1984. But he was like the tax guy for that company. He was murdered in a mob hit style.

[A]

Hit dude. That's why I like this podcast. I'm just like an animal nerd. I like talking about snakes and I'm like finding out about Victoria's Secret. Epstein and as well.

[C]

I mean, it's what the human animal does. Yeah, the human animal when it's in these very controlled spaces where just. So let's look at it this way. So imagine you're a guy who's. Especially if you're a nerd. And you know, you were never really good with women when you were in high school, college, and then all of a sudden you have literally $100 billion and you could just get prostitutes anytime you want. And I guess if you get the really high end ones, they know how to shut the fuck up. And if you have this friend of yours who's in the Mossad and that guy can get the best hookers, and he's got a fucking island. You go to the island. It's the best. We fly, we talk about Philanth.

[A]

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, that's what I was saying before. It's like, you're just like. It's just a party for a bunch of dorks who can come here with a lot of money, but there's also

[C]

some weird science connection with him. And that's where it gets really odd, is that there's. He got that ranch in New Mexico, so he could be close to the guys that were working at Los Alamos who were famously not making much money. So he's around these guys and he's talking about going into business with them and. And giving them this chance to make an Insane amount of money. And this is what he did with Eric Weinstein. With Eric Weinstein. He contacted him and they had a meeting and he was trying to get Eric Weinstein to do something with him. And if Eric did it, he had the potential to make an enormous amount of money. And Eric is very wise. And he just didn't buy him from the start. He's like, this guy's a construct. Everything about him, he's like, he doesn't know anything about finance. Like, he was talking to him. He's like, this guy's a construct. This is not a real finance guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He's like, there's something going on.

[A]

The Wheeler and Dealer. So wait, what was the science they were working on?

[C]

A bunch of different physicists were connected to him. Einstein, Epstein reportedly hoped to develop super race of humans with his di.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

What is that from? What? That's got a different one of the article. Oh, my God.

[B]

New York Times.

[C]

That is crazy. But he had a bunch of relationships with some very impressive scientists and. Physicists. Physicists. And also oddly connected to the whole UAP world. The whole Los Alamos things. Weird. Because the. The thing is that he. By buying that ranch in New Mexico, put him close to Los Alamos, which was in New Mexico, and he then he had access to all these scientists that were famously underpaid.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So these guys were not making much money and he was this incredibly wealthy. The guy through no way that anybody could ever rationally explain.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It was all weird and, you know, and who knows what he was trying to get them to do.

[A]

He was probably just one of those guys. I mean, you never ended up meeting him, but he was probably just incredibly likable as a con man. Do you know what I mean? You probably sat in a room with him and you're like, wow, this guy's really great. Like, maybe I should give him some money. Maybe I should. Like, what a cool guy. And he's just a dirtbag under the veil.

[C]

We're just speculating. But maybe, maybe also if you have a bunch of really hot Russian chicks that are hanging out with you, that'll do it. You don't need to be that charming.

[A]

That's so true. So true.

[C]

You're a billionaire with a bunch of hot Russian chicks. Yeah. And there's a bunch of people that are willing to hang out with billionaires just because I've seen it. Where people just get enamored by the fact that someone's insanely wealthy and they want to go to the party at their house. Like, ooh.

[A]

But all those people do is work like crazy. Do you? I mean, they're not fun. I mean, I don't know. I don't know that many. He was. That's true. That guy partied hard. Yeah, good point. Good point.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To.

[C]

To be a billionaire, I mean, in most cases, what you have to do is be insanely driven and you have to be that guy that works 18, 20 hours a day and give up

[A]

all the other things.

[C]

Yeah, you have to give up all your time. Exactly. That becomes your whole life. But I think that's also why they wanted a guy like that that could provide them. This is how Eric Weinstein described it. He said he provided them with experiences, I believe. Yeah, that was his. And I think he's right. I think that makes sense.

[A]

So, I mean, my one and only billionaire friend is that Anatombani, that Indian guy I was met. I think it's so cool. He's built this gigantic wildlife rescue that is pretty dope. Because he's a dude.

[C]

Like, that's such a great thing to do with money.

[A]

He's just like, he's a nerd like me. And if he hears this, he's gonna be like, thanks a lot. But, like, he's just an animal nerd. Do you know what I mean? He's gonna be like, he just, like, he just loves animals and conservation. And he's like, I have generational wealth that my. You know, it came from his family. His family's like fifth or sixth generation of having huge industry. And he's like, okay, so with my excess money, I'm gonna rescue animals in instead of do other space race.

[C]

That's very cool.

[A]

I mean, for me, it's amazing.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, there's not. Look, there's nothing wrong with space race stuff too. It's all fascinating and. But it's just, it's. And I get it from a perspective of people who think there's not enough money in the world. And then why do these people have so much money and they should give all their money away? And it's like, okay, but you could do that all the way down to like $100,000 a year if you really wanted to do it. Especially when you compare yourself to everyone else in the world.

[A]

That's right. That's right. You know, we're in the. Just living in this country alone. We're in the 1%, right?

[C]

Most people, I think 1% of the world, we look this up, it's like 50, $60,000. If you make more than that you're in the 1% of Earth, right.

[A]

And that's the majority of people in the United States.

[C]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

So, like.

[C]

Yeah, you're barely getting by in America and you're in the 1% of the world.

[A]

Exactly, yeah.

[C]

Which is wild.

[A]

It's wild. It's really wild. It really is. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. We're. We're the weirdest animal. You should study us.

[A]

I should. Well, I learned a lot today. I'll tell you what.

[C]

Yeah, but we're not fun like you, you. You study us and you go, oh, God, what, What are they doing? Whereas you study animals, you're like, oh,

[A]

cool, they're way cooler. They're way more interesting. More teeth, more claws, more slithering.

[C]

Well, it's also just the fact that there's so much variety and that they are real and that they are. Then some of them are so strange. How about that new monkey that they just found?

[A]

The Congo with the lipstick? Crazy orange. His orange mouth.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It looks like he just ate a like one of them freeze pops.

[A]

Yeah, exactly like your kid after. Yeah. 100, dude. It's so cool. And new primate species coming out still like.

[C]

No, I love that.

[A]

I think it's so great.

[C]

Do you believe in the Bondo ape? Do you think that thing is.

[A]

Yes and no. Like there's probably likely a group of chimpanzees, do you know what I mean, that just are more aggressive, that are a social construct and are larger and are larger. But it doesn't mean that it's like this, you know, because they have the whole thing about them being lion killing apes and all this other stuff. There's probably a family troop, a group and you know, they're in war now. Have you read about this? Yeah. So I think that's crazy. The Bondo ape is real in the sense of. There is an. Probably an isolated larger group of chimps that just act like chimps that have got.

[C]

The thing about this chimp though is they said that their skulls are different.

[A]

Yeah, the cranial ridge. Yeah, yeah. Make sure. Makes sense. Things with stronger jaw muscles have a cranial ridge. You know, you see it in hyenas, you see it in things like that.

[C]

Gorillas.

[A]

Yeah, gorillas. Yeah, exactly. It's just more, more surface area for the muscle to attach to, basically.

[C]

It's just like that would be so fascinating to find those things. And that's with, you know, that Carl

[A]

Armand guy spent his whole life hunting, reading rumors and.

[C]

But at least he got some photos, unlike that poor fucker that was looking for the sloth.

[A]

Yeah, still, still trying. Yeah.

[C]

Like he got some camera trap photos of them and.

[A]

Yeah, no, and they were bipedal in the photos. Right. Didn't you have a lot of them? Which chimps are, you know, they'll walk on hind legs and stuff. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[C]

It is pretty cool. And then there's a photo of the one that they killed that was at the airport. Do you know you see that one?

[A]

I don't think so.

[C]

Oh, it's crazy.

[A]

At the airport.

[C]

Yeah. There's a small airport and they, they killed this one enormous chimpanzee. So there's these two guys that are standing with it. It's hard to tell how big the guys are, but if they're normal sized human beings. That's the biggest fucking chimpanzee I've ever

[A]

seen in my life.

[C]

Look at that thing.

[A]

They're amazing.

[C]

Look at that. I mean the guy is. You could tell by perspective that the guy's. He's got his hand on it. So he's right behind it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's not a force.

[C]

Perspective. His arm is not extended.

[A]

No.

[C]

So it's not fake.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that chimpanzee looks way bigger than him.

[A]

Way bigger. Yeah, it's amazing.

[C]

So they think that is one of them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I think it's real in the sense. Oh yeah. This, this famous photo.

[C]

See? But that one just to me looks like a ch. Chimpanzee. That just looks like a big chimp.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Where the one that's sitting down that looks way bigger than those guys. The size of its head is fucking enormous.

[A]

Do you know that there's one river where. Trying to remember exactly how this works, but basically there's one area where the rivers collide where the chimps and the gorillas go into conflict with each other over this one river spot. Do you know what I'm talking about? Have you ever heard about this? Yeah, it's really interesting. So somewhere in the Congo there's this particular river and I think it's called the Cross River. Can't remember now. And it's an area that the chimps will come on one side and the gorillas will come down on the other and they will have, they'll like throw stuff at each other across the river. And like, it's like a whole thing, it's been documented and these guys will. There's sort of these like two clans of great apes that come and communicate across the river and throw rocks and like show off to each other and then they kind of go back into the jungle. But it's been seen in this one particular river several times.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it's like the real Planet of the Apes.

[C]

What are the chimp wars? Are they fighting over food, territory?

[A]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's relatively unknown, but it's sort of a social construct. So if you think of humans, for example, once our population gets too large and we have too many men and not enough women, we fight. Right. We've seen that throughout history. Roman times, Mongolian times even, you name it. So there was one troop of chimps that all lived together in relative harmony. And then two leaders basically sprung up and there was a lack of enough females. And so all of a sudden this, this clan divided into two clans and now they're at constant war with each other. Like they live in the same relative territory, but they'll come in with. Come into contact with each other and go to war over who's going to be the leader of the alpha troop, the male megatroop. And it's been going for maybe a year or two years now. Yeah, but how human is that? So human, like to be like, okay, we're all part of this group. Like, you and I don't like each other now. Like, this is my side, that's your side. We're gonna each other up.

[C]

Study highlights. Friends with benefits. Relationship between gorillas and chimps. What, they're each other.

[B]

No, it's younger ones hanging out. It says it's. I've probably in the same area they're meeting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pictures of them like in the same tree.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I think this is that right river.

[B]

They want figs out of these trees.

[C]

Yeah, but friends with benefits.

[A]

Generally benefits are.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I was looking for wording that got to what you're getting at, but you

[C]

don't really say that with like, you're like, why do you, why do you go to dinner with Bob? Well, we're friends with benefits. Oh, you're Bob?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Why don't you start Bob, man?

[A]

No, no, no. We just like figs, both of us.

[B]

The chimpanzees, though, they caught them beating their chest, which is only something gorillas have ever.

[C]

Yeah, they're.

[A]

They're imitating mimicking each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I'm sure you've seen that one documentary. I think it's called Relentless Enemies, where there's a particular pride of lions that grew enormous because they're only eating water buffaloes. They got trapped on an island because the river Changed paths.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I remember what you're talking about. I don't know the documentary, but yeah. They're eating Cape buffalo. Yeah, exclusively. And the lions are just getting bigger and beefier and they're all fat and like. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[C]

Well, they have to get bigger. The females are doing all the killing. So they're as big as male lions in other places. Jacked.

[A]

And they don't have a choice because otherwise they're going to die while trying to hunt the. The Cape buffalo.

[C]

Right. But so we're watching natural selection in real time because they just keep getting bigger and stronger.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you know, like, these buffalo are enormous, man. They're jumping on these things and hanging on them and trying to drag them down to the ground.

[A]

The black death. That's what they call the Cape buffalo. Yeah.

[C]

Those are so scary.

[A]

So mean. So scary. Yeah. And they'll charge so unprepared, provoked, like they'll just turn and come anytime. But it's. It's crazy how you have that basically insular dwarfism and insular gigantism throughout animals, no matter, like. Yeah, animals stuck on an island, they're either going to get big or they're going to get small.

[C]

Well, lizards usually get big on an island.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or tortoises. Right. Like the Galapagos or the Seychelles. Yeah.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Why do they get bigger?

[A]

No predators. Unlimited resources. Yeah. So all of a sudden, you know, you're a little torture tortoise that's this big, and every time you get to this big, something spots you from the air and eats you or whatever it happens to be. But now you're stuck on an island with all the grass and fruit you could ever eat and nobody wants to eat you. So you just get bigger and bigger to out compete.

[C]

Look at each other face.

[A]

Yeah. Look at those guys.

[C]

Just imagine that's the only thing you can eat, is something three times bigger than you and it can kill you.

[A]

That kills a lot of lions, by the way.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, it kick you in the face when you're trying to take them out and then that's it. Your jaw's broken and you never eat again. Yep. And you starve to death slowly.

[A]

I love the little. The little cub there covered in blood. Look at that.

[C]

It's a really cool documentary. It seems so weird when you're looking at the size of the females. They just look exaggerated to the point where they. They look fake. They look like Hulk lions.

[A]

It's awesome.

[C]

It's very cool. Very, very cool nature is such a wild thing, man. I mean, such an amazing, fascinating, endless, rich resource of just cool to see.

[A]

And our understanding of it changes all the time. Every animal theory we've ever had evolves and changes as we learn more, which is what makes it so fun because it's so dynamic. It's not a static thing.

[C]

What's just crazy that we keep finding new things like the new primate all the time. We find that little new monkey that

[A]

they found with the orange lips.

[C]

He's really cool. He's in the Congo. Well, the Congo is another place.

[B]

Place.

[C]

It's like, what? Yeah, I've seen. Sure you've seen that BBC documentary on the Congo from God. It was like the early 2000s. But look at him. What a weird looking guy. So cool, so strange.

[A]

There's a few lost primates out there too. Like species that we've seen once or twice that have never been seen since that.

[C]

Like what?

[A]

Ms. Waldron's red Colobus is one that comes to mind.

[C]

It's called Ms. Waldron's Red Colobat.

[A]

Or maybe it's just Waldron's red colobus, but it's a colobus. One monkey that. There's like three or four museum specimens and no live specimens. Yeah.

[B]

Really? Huh?

[A]

There's a few of Those, yeah. Oh, Ms. Waldron's. Yeah. Red colobus.

[C]

Why is it called Ms. Waldron?

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Who's that lady?

[B]

Good question.

[C]

What do you have to do with this monkey lady?

[A]

To West Africa, previously described as subspecies, not been sighted since. Oh, I saw it for a second.

[C]

And what's crazy is a lot of these animals, especially primates, and essentially anything that lives in the Congo is in a place that's so scary and so dangerous to visit, that is not a lot of research being done.

[A]

Well, that's always what I tell people when they're like, oh, well, you know, find these animals, find that animals. Nobody's looking. It's too hard. The local people know they're there. Like these lost species are species that the people that hunt and eat them know they're there, but they have no communication to the outside or the scientific world. And. And you know, for you or I to go into that part of the Congo is probably a death sentence. Yeah, yeah. But there's a lot of cool stuff out there.

[C]

Are there any other animals that might be real that people think they've seen?

[A]

As far as like cryptids?

[C]

Could still be real weird ones.

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

Like the giant sloth or something? Like that.

[A]

I mean, there's that whole, like, the dinosaur in the Congo thing that people always talk about. It's silly. It's not real. That one seems silly. I mean, I can't think of any. I think, you know, David Cho went

[C]

looking for that one.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that's one of your pods that I watched the whole thing. He was talking about that.

[C]

David's crazy.

[A]

Yeah, I can't think of any. But, you know, it's. It's those rumors. Like, there's a sloth. We've seen it. There's an Asian unicorn. We've seen it. That if people don't follow, you never know. It's like, you can. You can absolutely be the tinfoil hat guy. Like, I can be with the Thylac scene. But if you give up and don't look, you know, we never really know.

[C]

And if it's gonna be. It'll probably be in a place like the Amazon or like the Congo. Enormous place. Like the. Isn't the Congo as wide as the contiguous North America?

[A]

The country or the river? I think the country.

[C]

The country of the Congo. The Congo. The jungle of the Congo, I think, is almost as big as America.

[A]

I did not know it was that large.

[C]

Africa's fucking huge.

[A]

It's huge. Huge. If you see. Because United States imposed on Africa, you're like, oh, my God. The concept of Africa is enormous.

[C]

Well, that's what's squirrely about maps. Right. Especially, like, when you look at the globe, like, everything's so distorted.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which I don't understand why they do that. No, I've never had that explained to me in a way that, like. Oh, I get it.

[A]

Or timelines. Have you ever looked at how, like, time lines are drawn on the globe? Like. Like, you know, like the time zone.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

So, weirdly, jigsaw puzzles. And you're like, why is that island in this time zone that's three slots over? Like, it makes no sense to me.

[C]

Doesn't make any sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But, like, see if you can find the size of the Congo. Like, if you see the size of the Congo versus. I think it's almost as big as the United States in terms of.

[A]

I didn't realize that. It's the same. Yeah. There are. There are these. There's so many of these incredible remote

[C]

areas thousands of miles wide. Okay. So if you took that and you shoved it. Why doesn't. Why doesn't it put it over.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The bottom one. There is a better one. Bottom one. That one's better. So not Quite.

[A]

Yeah. But it's still enormous.

[C]

Yeah, it's like 35%.

[A]

Yeah. And there's more political unrest there now, which means stuff shuts down.

[C]

I mean, that's crazy. That's an enormous piece of. Look how big that is. You get all of India, all of Eastern Europe, the United States, China. Fucking crazy. France, Spain. Look at that.

[A]

It's a big place.

[C]

And the cradle of civilization.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

The cradle of humanity. And then also Egypt, that's. That's also part of Africa.

[A]

You know about the eclipse coming up there?

[B]

What?

[A]

Biggest one in history. 2027.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So in 2027, I want to say April, there'll be a six minute total blackout in Egypt. It'll be the longest one in 100 and something or maybe 80 something years years over the Red Sea in Egypt.

[C]

Oh, that's when you want to go see the pyramids.

[A]

Can you imagine when the aliens are going to return? That's what I'm saying, dude. Can you imagine being at the pyramids and seeing a 6 minute long, 6 minute 22 second?

[C]

That's what it's going to look like.

[A]

And it's in a place that never has clouds. So you're going to see it. I mean they do, but not that time of year. So. Yeah, total solar eclipse for six and a half minutes.

[C]

So we had one here. Yeah, yeah, two years ago. Two years ago, Jamie. Yeah, it was really cool.

[A]

How long did that last? I wasn't.

[C]

But yeah, a couple. Yeah, a couple of minutes. What was really cool about it though was that all the animals got oddly silent before it happened. Yeah, yeah, it was really weird.

[A]

Like they know something's coming.

[C]

So we were outside waiting for it and as the, you know, as the eclipse starts taking place, everything went quiet. Yeah, it was really wild.

[A]

So crazy.

[C]

And then while it's happening like, whoa. And you, you imagine like, imagine living like thousands of years ago before anybody understood what the was going on. And thinking like some wild magical moment had happened and we entered into a new timeline or something. You'd have all crazy theories.

[A]

I'd like grab somebody. We got to sacrifice them right away. Something's going on here.

[C]

Get them to the pyramid, cut their heart out.

[A]

Yeah, straight away.

[C]

It's also, it's like so weird that the sun and the moon are the exact right distance that when they cross the moon just completely outlines where the, I mean, just fills in everything. Yeah, but, but the light around the outside the edges, it's bizarre. How is it perfectly sized like that?

[A]

Have you seen. Oh, sorry. Go Ahead.

[C]

No, it's just, it's an incredible coincidence that it's the right distance and the right size because obviously the moon is so much smaller than the sun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But perfectly distanced the scale. So that when the sun and the moon is there, it's like boom. It's like the right side size, not like half of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's perfect.

[A]

Yeah, perfect.

[C]

It just sits right in there.

[A]

Yeah, it's like an Oreo and the cream. It's amazing.

[C]

The really screwball theories are that the moon is fake.

[A]

I've never heard that one.

[C]

Yeah, the panda. The panda. Fake. Has nothing on the moon being fake.

[A]

The moon is fake.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. They think the moon is artificial and then it was like put here by aliens and it's hollow.

[A]

You're kidding.

[C]

Oh no, no, no.

[A]

That's a good one.

[C]

And that it was put here in order to sustain life on Earth, to give us a stable orbit.

[A]

I mean it does do that.

[C]

It does do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Cuz imagine like how fragile life is on. Like we're really concerned about climate change. Like oh my God, the climate changes. Well, guess what? If the moon wasn't there, you'd be doomed.

[A]

Oh, there's nothing.

[C]

There's no way. Yeah, you need a big moon too.

[A]

Controls all of our oceans and a

[C]

quarter of the size of the Earth. Yeah, it's a weird moon.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I don't think there's another moon on. On in our entire solar system that's comparable in terms of like the size and the relationship to the other planet.

[A]

The planet itself, I think it's way

[C]

bigger than every other moon on. Let's find that out.

[A]

Because that is, that's pretty sure formulates the conspiracy theories. Yeah, it was brought in. Oh yeah. Interesting.

[C]

There's also. We did something, some sort of experiment, we shot something at the moon and it rang like a bell for like a long time, which is really weird.

[A]

That's wild.

[C]

It's like it echoed like way longer than we thought. Which of course could just be. They didn't know what it would do because they've never done it before.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And they don't even know like fifth largest. The fifth largest moon in the solar system with a diameter of the width of the continuous United States. While it's dwarfed by Jupiter and Saturn's largest moons, it's uniquely massive compared to its parent planet. Yeah, that's what it is. Making the Earth moon system more like a double planet. Yeah. So in relationship to the planet, like it's so Jupiter and Saturn have huge moons, but Jupiter obviously is massive. Way bigger than us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Well you look at the size of Jupiter in comparison to the size of Earth.

[A]

Yeah. So it's the scale of the moon to this to the Earth. Yeah. Interesting. That is a wild conspiracy theory. Imagine just being the guy who's like, you know what, why don't we shoot at the moon? Let's give that a whirl, see what happens.

[C]

Yeah, they did something, I think, I don't know what they shot it with. I think they sent a rocket to the movie moon and just to measure the sound like see what would happen. And it was odd. They found it odd the way it rang. It rang like a bell.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

But you know, it's like they've never done that before, like. And also who knows what the center of the moon's made out of?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Who knows where you hit it?

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[C]

Maybe it's weird. You got some caves in there. It's hollow. Apollo experiments and the ringing effect. The phrase moon rang like a bell comes from Apollo 12. In 1969, November, NASA deliberately crashed the lunar modules ascent stage onto the moon seism seismometers recorded a long lasting vibrations for nearly an hour. This description is a metaphor for how dry, cold lunar rock reverberates without water to dampen the shot.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, but and dorks say, oh it's hollow, it's made by aliens. And there's also people that think that, you know, there's stuff there that like there's a model.

[A]

Oh, the cities on the moon and all that. Yeah.

[C]

On the other side that we can't see.

[A]

Yeah man bases. Reddit's a wild place, huh?

[C]

This is not even Reddit. This is like you got to go to like weird message boards.

[A]

Crazy people go, it's deep crazy.

[C]

Yeah, people that of on wiki. What's that hollow moon there? The hollow moon closely related to spaceship moon. Ah, that's the one. Our pseudo scientific hypothesis that propose the Earth's moon is either wholly hollow or otherwise contains a substantial interior space. No scientific evidence exists to support the idea. Let's go go to spaceship moon because that seems even more interesting. Yeah, spaceship moon. Come on baby. The all these pseudo scientific. The moon spaceship includes historical. Oh no, no, yeah.

[B]

It's not. I didn't know what, what that means.

[C]

Spaceship moon theory.

[B]

Okay,

[C]

try that theory. A pseudoscientific hypothesis proposing that Earth's moon is an artificial hollowed out satellite constructed by an alien civilization.

[A]

Oh boy. See, it's like the Death Star.

[C]

There you go, bro. Well, you need to get into, like, space is fake. That's even better. Space is fake is popular, popularized in 1970 by two Soviet scientists, Mikhail Vasin and Alexander. How about that word?

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Who suggested the moon was reinforced by an armored titanium hull to survive impact.

[A]

Oh, man. People need more to do.

[C]

No, they don't.

[A]

You like this?

[C]

I love the kookier the better. Yeah, like, hashtag, space is fake is one of my favorite things to look up because there's a whole community of people out there that think space is fake. But I also think that a lot of these people. What you're getting is there's been some. There's been some people who develop fake theories in order to see if people bite. And then. And then they put them out there, like on Reddit or somewhere on. On 4chan. 4chan's a great place, stuff like that. Because you got a lot of schizophrenics that like to visit those places. And then they'll put it out there and see if people run with it, and then they'll do it to see if, just for fun.

[A]

And he gives you a community. Right. It's like, oh, yeah, I have this group of Flat Earthers that I hang out with on Saturdays, and we talk about how the Earth's not round. You know what I mean? It's like, I have a. I made my own lunatic community.

[C]

Bigfoot Hunters. Same thing.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

Unfuckable.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Unfugible. White guys, look. Looking for cryptids.

[A]

Something to do.

[C]

Are there any other cryptids that are even remotely interesting to me?

[A]

Not really. I mean, I always enjoy the fun of it, like, when we chat about it, but as far as, like, the reality of it, I don't think so. You know, I know it's a boring answer, but I think that.

[C]

Well, you would know. I mean, that's why I'm asking you. You're a guy who actually goes these places.

[A]

I mean, goes looking for stuff. I love when you hear about something like a borrowing stuff snake, and everybody's like, that's not real. It doesn't exist. And then turns out somebody finds this weird snake, and it's not really a cryptid, but it's something that nobody's been looking for, because why would you. Right. Nobody's digging in the earth, in the center of the Congo to find a mud snake, you know, or whatever it happens to be. And I think those are the things that they end up being cryptids in small communities. You know, like, you hear from the village about the snake. I'm making the snake up, but about the snake that lives under the mud and only bites when people dig their crops or whatever it happens to to be. And it creates this generational legend that becomes a cryptid. But the truth is there is a snake that lives under the crops in the mud. It's just nobody ever goes looking for it because why would you?

[C]

Well, there is a weird arrogance that we have in 2026 because we have uncovered so much in comparison to people that lived two or 300 years ago. Oh, for sure. That we have this maybe arrogant assumption that we have an accurate, accurate audit of all the animals on the planet.

[A]

And it's such a human thing to do is to be like we've quantified it all, we have the answers. You know, it's like we put a finite on something and then you have all these guys, especially in the scientific community, which is, that's a whole story for itself. But they're now like, okay, I need funding so I'm going to speciate a bunch of stuff. So I'm going to go look at four things that are exactly the same, except one lives on one side of the creek and one lives on the side other other. And now I'm going to make it its own species because that'll fund more work for me. So now you have the speciation race.

[C]

Yeah, there's no gatekeeping on that where

[A]

someone goes, hey, I mean there are certain criteria that you have to meet, but they're pretty easy to meet. Do you know what I mean? You have to say it looks different, it has some kind of genetic anomaly, it has some kind of physical anomaly. There's a population of it. Okay, now, now I've named my own species and that makes noise and I can publish a paper and now my research is funded and it's just like it's not, you know, is it a species? Do we. Did we need this one frog to be split into four different groups because they live on, you know, four different patches of the mountain? Not really, you know, and it sort of lessens the conservation for that frog in general because now all of a sudden it's like, well, there's four different kinds of them, so who cares if one of them gets extinct, you know what I mean? So it's sort of like it's a weird thing that's going on in the sciences where there's this race to do speciation and pull apart everything into more and more and more and then it sort of lessens the value of them, in my opinion.

[C]

Mm, that's interesting. So there's this reward thing that happens that encourages people to do these things.

[A]

Dude, I'm writing a whole book on this right now. It's coming out next year. Because it's just the scientific system in wildlife and conservation is so broken because it's very. First of all, the first of all, if you're an animal guy, you're probably not a great people person to begin with. Right. Myself included.

[C]

You're not a bad people person.

[A]

Thanks. But for the most part, the people that get into the sciences probably are. Don't have the best.

[B]

Awkward.

[A]

Yeah, they're awkward. They don't have the best human social skills. Right. So then those people become professors and heads of parties and academics and all these things. And again, I'm generalizing. There are great people that I work with too. But just a picture of the system. So now you have all these socially awkward, somewhat introverted people studying animals. Now there's this tiny little resource pool of money and everybody that's socially awkward, that's already somewhat arrogant because they've made it to the top of their field or close to the top of their field, is competing for this tiny little pool of money. So now they're putting out anything that's headline worthy. And a headline worthy could be as simple as speciating a frog on a mountain or it could be discovering something. Something. But basically you have to just publish something to show that you are accomplishing something to then pull from that tiny little pool of money. So now a system like say you, me and Jamie here should all be working towards saving this guy right here, this metal chimpanzee. Well, we're not. We're all fighting because there's this tiny little pool of money that we all want. And we're all saying that each other are wrong because we need to prove that we're right so that we're funded because you two. Because all three of us can't be funded to save that space species. Does that make sense? So now we're all fighting each other to save the thing that we all care about because the resource pool is so small.

[C]

What's the solution to that?

[A]

Well, it needs to become more mainstream. And I think there's a lot of bullshit science, you know, to be honest with you. Like there's a lot of this speciation and publishing and all this stuff that's just sort of making noise that isn't really helping. And I think the solution is, well, one, once it becomes more Mainstream. Here's the short answer. Conservation is incredibly easy to measure. We try and make it very difficult and complicated. Are there animals now? After your work, are there more? Have you fixed the problem? That's all conservation is, right? Are there more or less than when you started? If. When you started there are less and now there are more. And this is very black and white and every system is different, but if you had 1000 frogs and then you worked on the project and now you have 2000 frogs, you're doing conservation, right? As long as the ecosystem supports, as long as the prey is there, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's all conservation is. We try and make it so complicated and so in depth and require all these papers and this publishing and this information that is sort of an information overload, that the common person doesn't care about it. I mean, when's the last time you read a paper on frogs? Probably never, right? Me neither. Because they're boring. Because I don't want care about it. But I would care if you just came out and said, look, these frogs need a home. We're gonna fight chytrid fungus, which is this big widespread fungus that's killing all amphibians by building frog hotels. And if we build which are these little brick hotel things that frogs go in to incubate to kill fungus, and if we build enough frog hotels, then there's gonna be more frogs. That's good conservation. So instead of fighting over that, make that popular and mainstream, don't make it so complicated so that nobody understands. I'm not saying don't publish papers and things, those still very much so have their place in their home important, but focus on the messaging to the common person. So the common person now cares, then there becomes more funding and resources. Then we don't all have to fight over this tiny little pool of resources to publish things that aren't actually accomplishing things.

[C]

Well, this is actually the value of getting into a crocodile cage.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Because you get people actually interested in animals.

[A]

That's why I do YouTube. That's why I do all these things. I hope that it helps people care. I don't need to get funded by it. Like, it's great when my YouTube does well and I make money, but, like, I just want people to care about these things because if you care about them, then that resource pool widens.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's. You got to make things interesting to people. Right. And this is where, like, David Attenborough was so amazing because. Absolutely right. Because he developed these documentaries and he so. And the voice that he had is explaining these things.

[A]

Mind blowing.

[C]

He was the first guy to document chimpanzees eating monkeys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that.

[A]

Incredible, incredible. All this stuff. He's the goat, literally.

[C]

But you kind of. That's another thing about being a wildlife biologist. You kind of have to get your hands dirty. You have to, you got to get in there.

[A]

And the other part of the system that's so broken is a lot of these world leading experts have never touched, seen anything with a living one of these animals. I worked with a person and I don't want to say her name because she's a lovely person. Person who's a world leading expert on a certain type of shark. And we're like, great, you're the world's leading authority. You're perfect to come with us on this trip to study these sharks. We fly to the opposite side of the planet. I don't want to give too many details. It's not fair to her. She's a very nice person. We fly to the opposite side of the planet. She's published 50 papers on this species of shark. And we get there and I'm like, all right, day one, let's gear up, let's hop in the water and look for this thing. She's like, I don't know how to swim. Like, what do you mean? She's like, I've never been in the ocean before. Like, you're the world's leading authority on this type of shark. And she's like, yeah, yeah, I don't dive, I don't snorkel, I don't know how to swim. I'm like, well, how are you the world's leading authority on the shark? She's like, well, I've never seen one alive. I've dissected them, I've published all these papers. I can tell you about the tooth count, but I've actually never seen one alive. I'm like, you're the world's leading authority and you've never seen one of these animals alive to study it? The guy who fishes and eats it in the village next door is more of an authority than this person. Do you know what I mean? Right, but that's the scientific. The world's leading authority because they've published the most papers on something that sits in a pickle jar.

[C]

Do you think that that is an absolute requirement though? Like, do you have to have some sort of physical contact with the world that they live in?

[A]

I think you have to have observational knowledge. You don't have to have physical contact. Like, you shouldn't have physical contact with wild chimpanzees. They'll rip your arms.

[C]

Right. But I mean, the world they live

[A]

in, I mean, I think it should be a requirement. I think if you're going to be considered an authority on that thing, you have to have observational data as well as scientific data. You can't just live in a world where you're like, I've studied them in pickled jars and I can tell you everything about them.

[C]

Well, to me, that was like one of the most fascinating aspects of Chimp Nation, you know, that these scientists had been embedded with these particular chimpanzees for more than 20 years.

[A]

That's science. Yeah, that is science.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That means you are sitting there. And that's why the best scientists are the guys that hunt and fit fish and spend their life surrounded by these animals that will never once be credited as a scientist because all they do is study the behavior of the animal. And I'm with you. Like, that is. That's the real deal. 20 years watching a troop of chimps, learning their behavior, understanding their social dynamic. I'm not saying you shouldn't also cut one open and measure its canines. You should when you get a dead one, but that doesn't make you an authority on it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My opinion.

[C]

Well, that was the thing about that particular documentary and those particular scientists was it was so unusual that they had this long history where these chimpanzees had lived and died and raised new chimps around these people. And as long as they follow this protocol, stay within, you know, 20 yards, at least 20 yards away from them, never have food around them, don't look them in the eyes, you're good.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And you got insane footage because of that.

[A]

Yeah, because there's a mutual respect. Like, they've learned to appreciate each other and you can't do that with every animal. Like, it doesn't matter how many years you spend sitting watching a crocodile, it'll still eat you at the first chance it gets. But you've earned a mutual respect with a highly intelligent creature. That, to me, as a field biologist, is science. That's incredible.

[C]

If not a respect. At the very least, you've become a part of their world to the point where they don't think of you as being an anomaly.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So they are normal, where they're not weirded out. Like, if you just show up out of nowhere and you're wearing a spacesuit, the Monkeys are going to go, hey, exactly.

[A]

Fox.

[C]

This new thing. But if there's always people with spacesuits around, they never bother them. They go, oh, it's just the spacesuit guy. Normal. I'm just gonna go eat my bananas. Like normal.

[A]

It's the same as seeing, you know, an impala and a wildebeest hang out together at a watering hole. They're used to each other. They know they're not threats to each other. But you or I walk up and both of their ears perk up and they sprint in different directions. You can have that time put in to make things calm. And it's amazing.

[C]

But, I mean, has there ever been anything other than Chimp Nation where they did that. That effectively?

[A]

I mean, the grizzly man sure tried.

[C]

Didn't work out so well.

[A]

Didn't end well.

[C]

Or did it? Yeah, it probably ended the way he wanted it to.

[A]

Honestly, there's no way he could have wanted to go out any other way.

[C]

I think that was suicide by bear.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I also think it was Werner Herzog's attempt at comedy.

[A]

You think?

[C]

Yeah. There's something about the way he edited it where I'm like, this guy's fucking with us. Because there's one time where he talking about the sheriff, and they asked the sheriff, like, what do you thought of him? And the sheriff goes, well, I thought he was retarded. And they smash cut to something else. I'm like, you're trying to make me laugh.

[A]

It's pretty funny, though.

[C]

I've wanted to try to get him on the podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's going to be one of. He probably never answer honestly because it'd probably be disrespectful to Timothy Treadwell and just.

[A]

You got it, though.

[C]

I would love to get him on just. Yeah, he's amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And also his documentary, Happy People, Life in the Tiger, is one of my favorite documentaries of all time.

[A]

Oh, really? I don't know. It. It's good.

[C]

It's all about these people that live in Siberia.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

And they have, like, no mental illness, and all they do is they live a subsistence lifestyle. They're just hunting and fishing and trapping, and they ride around on snowmobiles and they make these huts and they live up there with their dogs and they have these extended periods of time where they're alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And all they're doing is, like, taking their snowmobiles to different traps and. And gas, gathering wood for fire and fish to eat. It's. And they're all happy and they're drinking and Laughing and they're like. It's weird because he, he documents it and it's called Happy People. That's what the documentary.

[A]

Yeah, it's called.

[C]

And it's like, with his, like the way he describes these people living in Siberia.

[A]

Nice Siberian.

[C]

Amazing. Oh, that's amazing. It's amazing documentary. I think he's incredible.

[A]

I have said forever. You don't. Look, mental illness is a real thing. I'm not gonna pretend it's not. But if you spend a lot of time outside and in nature and especially by yourself, the noise goes away. I don't care who you are, I don't care what your history is, drug history, anything. You're much more present when you're alone in nature. And mental illness, I have no experience in this. This is just opinion. But mental illness comes from when you're wrapped up in your own being. Right. When you're thinking about all the problems and this, that and the other thing. But when you're alone in nature, you have to think about your surroundings and what you're doing and you don't have time to sit and manifest on these things that create depression and anxiety and all of those types of things.

[C]

There's also no comparison. You're not comparing yourself to anyone else because you're living in a community that are assistance lifestyle. All these people are doing the same thing you're doing.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

What are you going to do? You're going to have the biggest fish. Like nobody gives a.

[A]

Nobody cares.

[C]

It's all hunting, Fishing.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Living off the land. That's. They all do it and they're all like sharing and drinking together and having fun. It's really wild when you watch it. You God boiled down to like the most simplistic, community driven ways that people exist. Like this, like seems to be the best way for people to live.

[A]

But like you said earlier, you have to have both sides right of the coin. It's like the red and blue in Texas because you have have innovators and overthinkers and workers or he wouldn't be a society or they.

[C]

And by the way, they wouldn't exist because they use snowmobiles. And not one of those is going to invent a snowmobile.

[A]

Exactly. So you got to have the red and the blue. You got to have both sides.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

That's awesome.

[C]

Well, hey brother, it's always good to talk to you. This is really fun.

[A]

Really fun.

[C]

What is this? You and the crocodile. Oh my God, dude, you had. He didn't tell Me? He put meat all around the outside of it.

[A]

Told you I was an idiot. Look at this. We made that cage, by the way, and I am no engineer.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Look at this cave. Looks so flimsy. That thing looks so flimsy. And you're just hanging by a thread.

[A]

Literally. Like this cable that we sourced from a village and hoped it would hold up. I mean, we tested it as far as put some rocks in it and tested it and empty cage.

[C]

But this is a terrible idea.

[A]

It was dumb. It was dumb.

[C]

Look at these things doing death rolls.

[A]

But people are going to watch this, Joe, and they're going to learn about crops. Great thing. You filmed it, right?

[C]

That's insane.

[A]

That was fun.

[C]

That cage looks way too flimsy. Don't do that again.

[A]

I'm not doing it again, I promise.

[C]

Yeah, tell people how they can see that, where they can find all your stuff.

[A]

Dude, it's Shark Week. We got an awesome show coming out this week. Alien Sharks Untamed America. Looking at some incredible sharks celebrating America's birthday. Our craziest, weirdest sharks.

[C]

How long is Shark Week has been going on? Since then.

[A]

80s. 39 years old. Same age as me. Yeah, it's been around my whole life.

[C]

That is so crazy.

[A]

Yeah, it's an institution.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Plus, we got the YouTube channel. That's where I'm doing most of my stuff now. I hope people check that. I know you watch some videos. Yes, I've heard you comment. I appreciate that.

[C]

Oh, I appreciate you. I appreciate you doing that stuff.

[A]

Thanks for having me, dude.

[C]

Always a blast. Always great to see you. All right, bye, everybody. Yeah, Sam.