JRE MMA Show #170 with Michael "Venom" Page

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience MMA Show #170 – Michael "Venom" Page

Date: October 3, 2025
Guests: Joe Rogan (host), Michael 'Venom' Page (MVP), Jamie (producer/sidekick)

---

Episode Overview

This episode features UFC welterweight/middleweight contender Michael "Venom" Page ("MVP"), who joins Joe Rogan for an in-depth, free-flowing conversation about his unique journey in MMA, the intricacies of his unorthodox style, the mental and physical hurdles of elite combat sports, lessons from both victory and defeat, the business and art of self-promotion, and much more. With candid stories and signature banter, MVP and Joe explore how point fighting has transformed MMA, the psychology of fighters, modern training, athlete branding, and what it takes to thrive—and survive—at the highest level of combat.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Influence and Challenges of MVP’s Unorthodox Style (00:14–06:54)

• Gratitude for Support: MVP opens by thanking Joe for championing his style even when critics dismissed him. Joe recognizes that MVP and other "point fighters" like Wonderboy Thompson filled a vital gap in MMA.
  • “What’s missing is point fighters...they have that skill of closing distance and being elusive. It’s not like any other sport.” – Joe Rogan [01:08]
• Point Fighting vs. KO Power: The duo breaks down how MVP’s karate-style movement and elusiveness disrupt the rhythm of typical power-strikers and flat-footed fighters.
  • “Power only means something if you land. My whole element is not being touched.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [05:12]
• Psychological Warfare: MVP’s strategies, including mind games mid-fight (“calm down, calm down”), add to opponents’ frustration and fuel his critics, many of whom accuse him of "fighting cans."
  • “I’m just making it seem a lot less difficult than it actually is. These guys are super talented fighters.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [06:29]

2. The Famous Cyborg KO and Dealing with Fame (06:54–10:48)

• MVP recounts the infamous KO against Evangelista 'Cyborg' Santos and the public’s morbid fascination with the injury.
  • “That was the most gruesome injury I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of broken bones. I've never seen someone with a caved-in head.” – Joe Rogan [07:34]
• The emotional aftermath—meeting Cyborg again years later is described as “awkward” and emotionally heavy.
• Discusses the duality of entertainment and violence, with MVP acknowledging the weight of having hurt fellow fighters.

3. The Path to MMA: From Points Champion to Caged Pro (11:04–16:52)

• MVP details his boredom with repetitive matchups in point kickboxing and lack of recognition/sponsorship in that world, which led him to try MMA.
  • “I know I want to compete for a living. I just didn’t know what in what. So then I said to myself, okay, cool, I need to take a step away from this.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [12:05]
• Recounts his initial plans to train in the U.S. but ultimately falling in love with London Shootfighters when he visited.
• Details his humble beginnings in grappling, being “twisted up into a pretzel” and loving the challenge.

4. Early Struggles and Breakthroughs: Confidence and Childhood Lessons (17:47–30:05)

• Siblings and Humility: MVP describes years of losing to his siblings, which instilled resilience and a capacity for relentless learning.
• How a grueling, multi-fight day at age 12 "clicked" something in him—suddenly, the beaten kid became an unstoppable champion.
  • “All the kicks I’d walk into, face first, I was like, oh, actually I can do this.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [23:16]
• Rapid progression leads MVP to fight and beat 18+ "seniors" as a young teen.
• Joe and MVP discuss the power of exposure—observing elite athletes raises expectations and abilities.

5. The Art of Fighting and the Importance of Novelty (30:05–33:33)

• Conversation on “pattern recognition” in MMA and how MVP’s unpredictable, bladed stance breaks those patterns, forcing opponents to improvise in real time.
  • “You don’t have normal patterns. It’s such an advantage.” – Joe Rogan [30:39]
• The rarity of point-fighter stylists in MMA and how most never experience it until fight night.
• The blessings and curses of his unique approach—hard to find sparring partners, hard for others to justify cross-training against his rare style.

6. Conditioning, Training, and Weight Cutting Realities (41:07–46:55)

• MVP and Joe compare weight cut strategies, with MVP advocating for minimal, healthy cuts and expressing distaste for extreme weight loss culture.
• Laments that being big at 170/185 puts him at a structural disadvantage if opponents are rehydrating massively, but a necessity due to modern standards.
  • “If you don’t join in, you’re fighting monsters.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [113:16]
• Advocates for fighting nearer to ‘true’ body weight and discusses a vision for better regulations.

7. The Business of Fighting: Branding, Marketability, and Career Strategy (49:30–53:57)

• On Self-Promotion: MVP reveals that he studied promo masters like The Rock and Chael Sonnen, mapping out catch phrases, celebrations, and entrances to create a memorable brand.
  • “I studied this… your five seconds after the fight on the mic… what message is going to land?” – Michael 'Venom' Page [52:20]
• Discusses why skill alone doesn’t always get athletes the big fights or the audience, and how fighters "need to be able to market yourself."
  • “You are the product.” – Joe Rogan [67:30]

8. Inside the UFC: Level of Competition and the Mental Game (55:00–63:51)

• MVP describes initial UFC nerves, especially feeling the weight of expectations as a name from Bellator, but after a few fights, regaining his familiar confidence.
• Both men emphasize that the current level of talent is off-the-charts, due to the new generation growing up immersed in MMA (see: 61:16–61:41).
• The importance of mentality and composure in dictating outcomes at the top tier.

9. On Strategy and Rule Sets in MMA (68:01–74:25)

• Discussion on the “problem” of dominant positional wrestlers who do just enough to win by the rules—Joe contends this is reality, MVP pushes for more active finishing attempts.
  • “Try to finish the fight. Don’t just take me down and just…” – Michael 'Venom' Page [71:25]
• The role of evolving rules and fan perceptions in shaping fighting styles.

10. Weight Cutting and the Case for Reform (112:16–119:59)

• Joe and MVP dig into extreme weight cutting as "legalized cheating,” listing notorious examples and dangerous consequences.
• The case for more stringent and random weight checks and hydrated weigh-ins.
  • “If we started calling dehydrating cheating like PEDs…maybe people would stop.” – Joe Rogan [116:03]

11. Resilience, Loss, and How Competition Builds Character (93:01–101:23)

• Strong emphasis on the vital role of losing, hard competition, and familial/sibling challenges in building a competitive mind.
• Critiques trends in modern childhood (“no picking teams…everyone gets a trophy”), warning how it softens future adults and removes the lessons of adversity.
  • “The feeling of bad from losing is actually good for you.” – Joe Rogan [100:12]
  • “I got destroyed for four or five years...something clicked.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [18:35]

12. Injuries, Setbacks, and Realities of the Fight Game (131:39–135:26)

• Both discuss fighting through serious injuries—MVP reveals entering a UFC fight barely able to walk on his foot, still refusing to pull out (“It’s not happening”).
• Joe underscores that fans rarely appreciate how banged-up most athletes are come fight night.

13. Future Plans: Beyond Fighting (149:20–151:49)

• MVP discusses his foray into film production, short films on athlete mentality and anxiety, as well as entrepreneurial ventures like his beef jerky company ("Snap Down Snacks") and a restaurant.
• The creative impulse and need to "paint pictures" carries from martial arts to the arts—MVP wants to retire knowing he’s built something beyond the cage.

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On MVP’s Innovations:
  “This is what I’m saying. This is crazy. You can’t even hit them.” – Joe Rogan [31:08]

• On Psychological Warfare:
  “Calm down, calm down.” – Michael ‘Venom’ Page (on in-fight mind games) [05:30]

• On Learning from Loss:
  “I used to get my ass kicked everywhere we went…for four or five years. And then something clicked.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [18:35]

• On Self-Promotion in MMA:
  “You are the product.” – Joe Rogan [67:30] “What are you going to say? What message is going to land?” – Michael 'Venom' Page [52:23]

• On Overcoming Anxiety:
  “Anytime I feel slightly stressed, you might see me dance...it’s not for the other person, sometimes it’s just to stay chill.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [91:17]

• On Resilience:
  “Can you do it when it counts? Can you do it when the lights are on?...That’s when it counts.” – Michael 'Venom' Page [82:44]

---

Notable Fight and Fighter Coverage

• Evangelista “Cyborg” Santos KO and aftermath ([06:54]–[10:48])
• Early point fighting and inspiration from Wonderboy Thompson and Raymond Daniels ([02:09])
• Musings on Tom Aspinall, Francis Ngannou, Jon Jones legacy, and heavyweight movement ([33:09]–[35:51])
• Bellator vs. UFC, cross-promotion, and market forces ([54:27]–[56:29])
• Homage to Demetrious Johnson, Alex Pereira, and branding via walkouts or personal interests ([64:28]–[67:22])
• Injuries: TJ Dillashaw’s career cut short by shoulder injuries ([127:45]–[128:20])
• Stories of underappreciated gym superstars who can’t perform on fight night ([82:59]–[87:00])

---

Important Timestamps for Reference

• 00:14 – MVP thanks Joe; discussion on criticism and point fighting
• 06:54 – The infamous Cyborg KO story
• 11:04 – Journey from kickboxing to finding MMA and grappling
• 18:35 – Childhood losses and learning from defeat
• 30:40 – How MVP’s unpredictability gives him an advantage
• 41:20–46:00 – Training, weight cutting, and athlete health
• 52:23–53:57 – The art of athlete self-marketing
• 61:07–61:41 – The new generation: talent influx in MMA
• 91:17 – Coping mechanisms, fun, and handling fight nerves
• 113:16–119:59 – Weight cutting as “legalized cheating”—calls for reform
• 131:39 – Fighting injured and the realities behind the scenes
• 149:20 – MVP’s movie projects, post-fighting career vision

---

Closing Thoughts

This episode showcases MVP not just as a martial artist, but as a thinker and entrepreneur, highlighting his approach to combat as both art and science. Joe and MVP's rapport offers listeners an authentic look at the philosophy, psychology, hardships, and joys behind martial arts mastery—and what it takes to stand out in the rapidly evolving world of mixed martial arts.

For fans and fighters alike, the conversation is a vital blueprint for success, resilience, and self-expression in and out of the cage.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Jamie]

We're up.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. MVP in the house. The most enigmatic, difficult dude to solve in all of mma. That's you, man.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Bro, you know what? I. I always. I want to start simply because you. What you have done for me specifically, I get a lot of criticism, a lot of hate, and especially, obviously, jumping. When I first got into the. Into the MMA world, new to me, you know, I'm just like, okay, let me just be myself, do my thing. First fight goes well. Landis crazy kick goes viral, and I get nothing but, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. But then having prominent figures like yourself that are constantly. Have been Champion, my style. Champion. Championing the, like, the points element of things. I just appreciate you for that.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my pleasure, brother. I appreciate you. It's almost like we called for you because there was a time in the early days of MMA, like in the early 2000s, where I was like, this is what's missing. This is what there's. What's missing is point fighters. And people would, like, mock me. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I've sparred with these dudes. You can't hit them. It's a different thing. I'm like, they have a very specific skill, that skill of closing distance and being elusive. It's not like any other sport. It's almost like fencing and MMA combined or. And martial arts combined.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I always tell people that, like most of the combat sports, in terms of kickboxing, the full contact side of things is more to do with the. There's a fixation on power knocking, whereas our element is just the speed element.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Getting in and getting out.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

In touch, like you said, the tag. Tag kind of feel, fencing, similar kind of footwork and. Yeah. Just not many people had decided to cross over to any kind of full contact world, really. And you had the likes of Wonder.

[Joe Rogan]

Boy Thompson, Raymond Daniels.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Raymond Daniels.

[Joe Rogan]

You and Raymond were the most prominent ones in him and Glory, of course, you.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Well, he did a little bit mma, a little bit.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're more prominent in mma.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

The point was that this was an element that when I remember when I was doing Taekwondo and I would fight in tournaments, I would occasionally fight in point fighting tournaments. And if I'd fight a guy like Mafia Holloway or one of these guys that were really good, like, this is crazy. This is such a crazy skill.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Very different.

[Joe Rogan]

And when I saw MMA Where a lot of guys were just like, like real flat footed and waiting. I'm like, there's a giant opening here.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you came along and you really were the proof of concept. And I was like, okay, this is it. You get a world champion at that, who figures all the other stuff out, because essentially striking is striking. You know, you can learn throwing leg kicks differently, you can learn, you know, different stances and movements. The grappling is the big heat. That's the big hurdle.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But once you can solve the takedown defense and some of the grappling hurdles and you've got, actually got some mission victories, then you got a real problem. Because every fight starts standing up.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Every fight starts standing up with a big ass fucking cage. It's a big ass cage. And I see guys like Kevin Holland, like, he's like, what the fuck do I do with this guy?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He hated every moment of it. I could feel it. But that's just part of my style. Is that kind of frustrating people because it's just so unfamiliar. For someone like yourself, you would kind of being there, whether you're successful or not, you'd understand what's happening and you, you'd be calm enough still to be like, okay, I need to know how to figure this out, because I've experienced this before.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

For someone that's never experienced and because there's few of us in the MMA world, who do you go to to train?

[Joe Rogan]

There's very few people that are really good at that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And like I said, Wonderboy Thompson. Yeah, he, you know, friend of mine, obviously meeting him and, you know, just us getting on. And he's even said people have contacted him like, oh, yeah, I'm fighting mvp. Like, I want to train with you. He's like, I want MVP to win. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Can'T help you, bro.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Can't do anything.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's, it's good for the sport. Yeah, it really is. Because, you know, like, think about, there's certain techniques just come along, like the calf kick, and all of a sudden, like, how is this. People been kicking legs for so long. How is this kicking a different spot on the leg kind of revolution. Yeah, yeah, we need to see that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I think the introduction of you is going to make a lot of these guys that are like high level point guys go, there's a, there's a spot there.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because the open look, there's always an advantage in the fact that every round starts standing up. As long as you have takedown defense, every Round starts in your realm, and your realm is different than all the other stand up realms. It's totally different. And if a guy is a plotting guy and he thinks, oh, this is my world, like, yeah, that's how your world.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not your, it's your world against someone who agrees to fight the way you fight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

100.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I always say that is because I, you know, I've come up against guys and was like, man, he can. He's got big, big hit with a big punch on him. And I agree. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But power only means something if you land.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And my whole element is like, not being touched.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also with people's heads.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

One of the, one of the things.

[Joe Rogan]

He did during the Jarrett Canonier fight, after you hit him, you like, calm down, calm down. I was like, oh, no. Cuz you imagine just getting popped, your eyes are runny, your nose hurts, and this dude's standing in front of you going, calm down, calm down. Like, no, he didn't. Oh, no. But that's a psychological warfare.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But that's the end. That's obviously, that's kind of like part of my personality coming out and the entertaining side of me. And a lot obviously added to the criticism that I would get, which because of how I would make my opponents feel in terms of their frustration and then obviously the antics on top of it. So many people, the, the, the, the main term that came with me was like, oh, he's fighting cans. He's fighting cans. My whole career was nice fighting cans. Like, he can't. But I always say to people is, I'm just making it seem a lot less difficult than it actually is. These guys are super talented fighters.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm just not fighting on the same wavelength and timing as them. As you said, these guys that plot around, they're so used to it. So when they're fighting other people, it looks very even. And when they're fighting somebody that they just can't get their hands on.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And they're getting frustrated on top of that. So there's the mental side, the physical.

[Joe Rogan]

Side, and you have a lot of power. So there's consequences.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, there's consequences.

[Joe Rogan]

Not like you're tip, you know, tippy, tappy patting them.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Every now and then. Like, the cyborg fight was one of the craziest knockouts in all of MMA history.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You know, one thing actually wanted to do, actually brought some gifts for you, but one of the things actually wanted to bring for you.

[Joe Rogan]

Don't tell me you brought a piece of his head.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He wouldn't let me have that, so I had to leave it. Actually wanted to.

[Jamie]

We.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

We basically had a poker ball come. It's very specific one, and they messed up on delivery, but I'm gonna get it to you in Vegas.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So when we go over to Vegas, I'm just making sure I. I get that to you because, again, it's something that you've spoken about with me, and it's a big. It's a big part of my. My history in mma. Just that. That cyborg fight. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that was the most gruesome injury I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of broken bones. I've never seen someone with a caved in head.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

The doctors were saying that what we were hearing back from. They said he's only ever seen that in a car accident, never in. Yeah, that's me. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That is so crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And that was his last fight. And I know after the fight, he was like, we're gonna fight again. The doctor's like, hey, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Because I think he was. I'm. Someone sent me something where he was supposed to fight again. And then I'm not sure what happened there, but, yeah, he did. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

How could you fight again after that?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

What made it. I felt very bad, obviously, at the time as well, but then I didn't see him for another two years. Boom.

[Joe Rogan]

That was just.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And the sound. The sound that was. It's only when I watched it.

[Joe Rogan]

Sound. Give me the sound, Jamie. It's hard to breathe. So just about everything you need in a fight, you lose off the liver shot. It sounds like a baseball bat on a pumpkin.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I mean, just. What?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was different. Thing is, I didn't know. I keep telling everybody I didn't know what happened because obviously they're like, you celebrated, like, threw the pokeball at him afterwards. I did not know you thought it.

[Joe Rogan]

Was just a knockout.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. And obviously cost. From kicking his legs, I'm assuming maybe I broke his nose or. Because I can see he's not out, but he's in pain. It must have. Must be something like that. It's only the next day that I found out. But, yeah, it was. It was a bad one.

[Joe Rogan]

That was a bad one.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, it was a very bad one. And the thing is, like I said, I met him. I want to say, like two. Two and a half years later down the line, obviously, this clip's just been going, going crazy online and so on and so forth. I just, I felt awkward. I didn't want to. But also he had come over for another MMA show, but with one of his students. But one of his students was fighting one of my teammates. And at the beginning, my coaches were like, oh, do you want to, you know, go and at some point go and see him and say hello? I was like, yeah, please. Like, I'd love to, because that's the last time I saw him. The fight happens and my teammate is known for his leg locks and breaks his, his student's leg. So I'm like, fuck sake.

[Jamie]

God.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So now they're like, do you want to go and see him? I was like, yeah, yeah, I'd try. I just. I just felt like I needed to.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I kind of walked into the room. His guy's obviously upset for losing. He's like, getting sorted out by the medics. And he's sitting there, just looks at me and I'm like, hey, what do you say? Like, unlucky? Yeah, Like, I just like, hey. He's like, shook my hand. Like, I could just feel the energy wasn't right. It wasn't the right timing, but I didn't know when I would to see him again, and I haven't again since. So. Yeah, I just felt. It's just one of those things. I just felt bad. Yeah, but what do you do?

[Joe Rogan]

There's nothing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, what do you do? What do you do?

[Joe Rogan]

Guy's got a broken leg, you broke his head. It's just, just stay the away from you and your true. I mean, at least you're nice about it and friendly. It is what it is.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's such interesting because you've train with Marius, my coaches, one of my coaches, Marius, and obviously he says to say hello, tell myself. Yeah, he said he's trained with you guys. I think you guys trained for about four years with Eddie Bravo as well.

[Joe Rogan]

I've known him for 20 years.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crazy, crazy, crazy. And that's obviously, that's a big part of my, my history now with them. Them to the brothers, Alexis and Marius.

[Joe Rogan]

Were you at the gym when, When Lee. When Lee Murray was.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No, no, no, no, I was just after.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, luckily.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But interestingly though, when I was in, at the time that I. He was around, I was still very like, heavily focused on the points, fighting, kickboxing, so. But a friend of mine was training at shoot and he was like, you need to come and train with these guys. Like these Guys are serious and. But for me, MMA was just never going to be a thing that I'd ever see myself in.

[Jamie]

Really.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've always seen it as, I guess like your average fan back in the day and some fans now of like us. Brutal, man. Like, right? And again, I'm a points fighter. Like, I don't see myself being good enough to or tough enough to fight these guys.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, what changed?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Obviously, Mike had a successful career in the kickboxing, but I didn't really go anywhere in, like, you're fighting the same people over, like the amount of times me and Raymond have fought and we were like the. Some of the top two guys, like, if we're both in the competition, like, we both walk in a room, everyone was like, oh my God, are these guys gonna fight? Like, right, we were the guys. But I'm fighting the same people and it's just like everything, everyone hoping that you're gonna lose or your fans are kind of like supporting you. And then I come back to reality, come off a plane. I traveled, I fought all the, you know, the whole week or whatever, won a world title, and I've come back home and nothing. Yeah, I come back home to just me being myself. Just me being me, which I'm okay with. But there's no recognition, there was no sponsorship. I paid to do everything and I loved it. And if I could choose the route again, I'd still do it because I absolutely loved it. But there comes. I'm getting older and it comes a point where I have to. I'm now starting to. At the time I'm a kid, but now it's getting to the point where I have to work. And so now it's like, I can't do this forever. But at the same time, I know I want to compete for a living. I just didn't know what in what. So then I said to myself, okay, cool, let me. I need to take a step away from this. I know while I'm in this, this will be a distraction. I'm not going to be able to focus on things because another compet position that I'm going to want to win is going to come up and it's going to turn my attention. So I said, look, I'm going to. I said to everyone, I'm retired. I thought, let me say it to as many people as possible. So then it's hard for me to turn back on it. So I'm just like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm retiring. No, not fine again. Yeah, this is my last Fight. And I said, cool. Started to go around looking at boxing gyms, looking at full contact kickboxing, looking at MMA gyms. And the first gym actually went to was in Miami, Coconut Creek. American Top Team.

[Jamie]

Ah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Because my sister used to live in that area. Because I got siblings over in America as well, so came out there and in my head at the time, there's only few people from the UK that was doing anything in mma. So when I was like, maybe I'm going to try mma, I was like, obviously have to go to America. And I'm lucky enough to have siblings that live over there. So I'm good. So get to America, get to American Top Team. I go in there, I'm like, this is where I'm gonna start. Like I've met a couple of the coaches and just kind of just like general chit chat. I didn't tell them who I was or anything. Just kind of saw the vibe, the facilities are amazing. I was like, yeah, this is, this is going to be my new life. And then I get back to England and good friend of mine, Marvin Francis was like, just in case, just have a look at some gyms over here. You don't know just what before, because obviously I've got things to sort out before I can just make the full move. So while you're doing that, let's have a look at a couple of gyms. And we did some research. We went to a couple of the Gracie gyms, went to a few other gyms that I was around then I found London shoot fighters. I hadn't done any research and at this time, I personally wasn't watching MMA at all. The only person I knew, what year is this? So I would have been out of being what, 24? So what's that about? It's over 12, 13 years back. And I was trying to say the only guys in the UK would have been. Brad Pickett was fighting. Solid Fighter, Solid Fire. Michael Bispin was fighting, but. And nobody had like achieved anything of big quality from there. Everything, everything was in America.

[Joe Rogan]

Was Bisping still living in England or had he moved to America?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think he was sitting. I think he was still in England.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But again, I was only learning it as I got more into it. But initially I just thought I made the decision without actually researching anything, which is very much like me. I'll just jump in head first, figure, figure out afterwards. So I literally, I said to myself, okay, cool, I've got to London shoot fighters. And the only person I knew was Chuck Liddell. That's. I've actually seen. And I just was like, this guy was just knocking people out. I was like, that's. I could relate to that as like, he's a striker. Everything else I didn't really care for. I was typical fan. Like, when they got on the floor, I was like, stand up. Stand them up.

[Jamie]

So.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And never been to a show, anything but these. He's a guy that I like watching. And then I want to. I made a decision. I want to do it. Cool. Started in London, shoot fighters. And for some reason, the guys there. I don't know what, because I've had good coaching, so in my upbringing, so I can. I feel like I can hear sense when I've gone to a place. I'm. I'm hearing how they're coaching and what they're saying, and I'm like, it just makes sense to me. I was like, cool, I want to start here. I still want to go to America, but I'll start here for now and then just see where it goes. And I just fell in love with the place.

[Joe Rogan]

Was that the first time you did any grappling at all?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Any grappling at all?

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Didn't do. And I. All I was doing every day was applauding people because I was tapping every two seconds. Every two seconds.

[Joe Rogan]

Frustrating, right?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But I loved it, though.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, well. You have a good mindset. Yeah, it was.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It was weird. Like, I kind of enjoyed the fact that, like, I'm looking at this guy like, if I saw you on the street in my head.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm destroying you.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But this guy just twisted me up into a pretzel.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a humiliating feeling.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, so humiliating. But I. Again, I crave. If I go back to the point side from about like. You met my brother outside.

[Joe Rogan]

Him.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's my. He's the oldest of my siblings. Sorry. Of my. The boys. My sister's the oldest, then it's my brother. I got two other brothers then me. And at the time, we. We were fighting around, but they were winning everything. I used to get my ass kicked everywhere we went. And this is every single weekend.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. When something truly works for you, you want people to know about it. AG1 Next Gen is your daily healthy drink. Just one scoop. Combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotic, superfoods and antioxidants into one truly simple, delicious habit. I partnered with AG1 for so long because they're committed to constantly improving. And their latest clinically studied form formula features more vitamins and Minerals for more comprehensive support while still maximizing absorption in the body. And I know I've talked about AG1 for a long time, but if you haven't checked it out in a while, now's the time. AG1 has a lot going on, including new flavors. Berry, citrus and tropical that'll make showing up for your health even better. You can be an athlete, you could be a gym rat. You just be a normal person. And AG1 is going to help you feel your best. When you subscribe today, you'll get a free bottle of AG3K2 and five AG1 travel packs with your first subscription order. Just head to drink ag1.com Joe Rogan or click the link in the description. That's drink ag1.com Joe RogAN.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like, he was, for me, he was the more talented one. But I mean, like every single weekend we're driving to Birmingham, to Manchester, to Scotland. We did trips everywhere. Like, my, my dad started the gym and he was going around everywhere. And every weekend there's like three hours that way, four hours this way, this coming back. And I'm just. Got a boss lip. And they're just, the medals are just like, cling, cling, cling, cling, cling. Like they got all the medals and they're talking about how they spin kick some guy and they did this and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, cool, cool story. And I got destroyed for four or five years. And when I is. I got to a qualifiers is in Birmingham. It was an IASCA qualifiers and I managed to win that, which, that in itself was success for me. Like, I'm like, oh, man. I qualified to go to the World Championships. I've already done well. Everyone else was there, so they were supposed to do it. Like, they're good enough to have the expectation of themselves. So then I get to the World Championships and the way they seed fighters in the US was very different to the UK at the time. So I had one fight, another fight, another fight, and I'm winning and I'm like, happy. And I must be in like the finals already. And then like, okay, bring the Cedars fighters in. And there's like a shitload of fighters. Join your.

[Joe Rogan]

Your.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Your Matt. And I'm like, oh, my, my dad would tell me, he's like, yeah, I think you're in a. In the, in the semis. I think you're in the quarters. And then he was like, bro, just keep fighting. He said he couldn't work out. I don't know. Seriously, I, I genuinely don't remember, I just remember just feeling tired, and I didn't understand why this was still going on. Because in the competitions, three, four fights, you're in a final, right? And I was at least 10 fights deep and still felt like I was.

[Joe Rogan]

Fighting all in a day.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

In a day.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Jamie]

So there's a.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Again, the. I ask world champ is in Orlando, Florida. And it's. It's a. It was the big, at the time, the biggest points kickboxing competition. So there's thousands and thousands of competitors, kids, adults doing forms, doing, you know, cutters and all this stuff. And then the. You had the points fighting, the light contact fighting, and that was it. And yeah, it just. All day. And then it literally got to this, like, okay, I won a fight. And the guy was like, okay, you're in the final. Next. The referee said that to me, and I was like, oh, like, I can't believe I'm in the final. And this guy was very good. I can't remember his name. Who was young. I was. I think it's like 12 or 11 at the time. And I won the fight. I just collapsed to my, like, my back. I was just like, oh, my God. Everyone ran in there because, again, nobody expected that of me. And I remember going in there, the trophy itself was 6 foot tall. And in my head, I was like, I just want one in my house. And I managed to win that. But something that competition clicked. So all the times I was getting beaten up, all the competitions, I was getting destroyed, and it wasn't even, like, close. I was getting destroyed. I won. I won this competition. And I went back home, and every person I used to get destroyed by, I was smoking them. Like, something was different. Instantaneously, there was a weird shift that just went click. And all the kicks that I'd walk into, face first, I was like, oh, actually, I can do this.

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, wow, you entered into the matrix.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I literally. I just. I. To the point. To the point where. So when I went back home is like 12, and for the year of that circuit, I didn't lose a fight. And this is from. This is from getting what's crazy. And this is what I'm fighting. All the same guys that I grew.

[Joe Rogan]

Up, they must have been like, what the.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, what the hell's going on here? Then the. When I was 13, I asked my dad, I was like, can I please fight in the seniors? And the seniors are 18 plus. And he was like. And he said it to me. He said it to me later on. He was like, as A coach. I knew you could as your dad. I was like, hell, no. And I begged him, like, every competition go, like, please, can I fight the seniors, please? And there was a big British championship competition and I, I begged. I was like, please. He was like, you can do this one. And again, I don't think he. Remember, these guys are 18 plus, all different sizes as well. I don't think he knew I'd do well, but not as well as he. I did. So I won the. My senior division. Wow. For my weight. And like I said, these are big men. But the problem is, whoever. When you win in this competition, specifically when you win your session, you go into the grand championships. And I'm like, dad, you gotta let me go. He's like, no, that's. This is different now because they're. They're the winners of their division. This is. That was your weight division. Now these guys are the winners of their own weight. You can't do this. I begged him and I beat everybody and got to the final. And the final was really, really close. And I felt like I got robbed. And even my dad was like, he could never tell me no after that because I destroyed some of the best fighters on the in that in the UK at the time.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think it was a confidence thing of having gone through that grueling tournament and proven that you could do it and now you didn't have doubts in your mind anymore? Or was it you had just seen so many different high levels of competition that, like, maybe your own expectations had risen? Like, what. What was it that made that instantaneous shift? Because it's one thing to go and compete and do really well all of a sudden, and like, now I'm competing. But then you went and you were doing against people that were normally beating you and you're them up. That's cr.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's.

[Joe Rogan]

That's like a 50% shift. That's a giant shift.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I would say one thing. Obviously, I hated losing, as anybody would, especially as a kid. And we also, and I think as all of us, we wasn't allowed. So a lot of the kids would fight first and then the seniors would fight him. But because we all traveled down together, we stayed the whole competition until the seniors were finished. So we can drive back. A lot of the other kids were messing around when obviously we like this guys that I've spent. I've known since I was 8 years old. I'm still good friends with now because we were the kids, like playing with each other afterwards, like just being all cool but my dad was like, no, no, you represent me. You sit down and watch. So as much as we could play a little bit, like when he wasn't looking, but we have to try and get back to the mat to make sure we were watching people. And I. I feel like I'm a visual learner, and I feel like that helped me become that visual learner. As much as I was getting my ass kicked, I was also spending time watching amazing athletes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think it's an important thing to mention that at that time, there wasn't video readily available. Like, there is acting like. I remember the first time I went to the Taekwondo World cup, it was in Colorado Springs in 2000. I mean, not 2000, 1980. I think it was 86. And the first time I went, I immediately got better just by seeing. Just by seeing everybody. I just went as a spectator. Yeah, I hadn't beaten anybody to qualify for the nationals, so when I went there, the whole experience was just absorption. And I came back and I was much better. Much better. I'd never seen those guys live. But my expectations for competition, my expectations for movement and speed, everything had risen. And at the time, I was 18, so it was just. When you're 18, your brain just. You just absorb, absorb.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I think even more so when you're younger.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, when you're a little kid.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I, like, I. My first competition, I was five years old, so that is just many years again, being up.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's incredible, though, because your body develops with that. I started a little late. I started karate when I was 14, and then wrestling and taekwondo when I was 15. But I wished I started earlier because I was with these guys that were younger and their little bodies had, like, grown. Stretched, catching. They'd grown punching and kicking, like you develop into that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, well, funny you say that. I. That's where my name came from. So Venom came from when I was nine. And the only kids that was in my dad's class at the time, mainly bar a few others, because at the time we did, it was basically one class. He didn't really separate the kids and adults. It's just one class. So you're. I'm trying my best throwing everything in to hit adults. And, yeah, they're not moving, but I'm trying my best to just get some kind of reaction. And then when I started hitting people my own size, even though I was losing because they were. They just. Obviously I was tall for my age as well, so I was fighting kids slightly more Naturally developed than me. But I had a. Had a whack on me.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a great way to put it, you know?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I mean, like, even though I, I, you know, I wasn't beating these guys, these guys were just way too fast for me. But when I hit them, they felt it. And it was one of my again. Marvin was literally just like, you got some venom in you, man. And we was very into, like, kung fu movies back in the day and then. And I was very creative mind. Like, I loved just. Just even with my martial arts, I learned a job like this. And now I have to add something. Oh, I can't do things conventional. I've never, never liked to do it. If there's a. Everyone's walking that way. Like, I want to see what's over there. Like, I just. I don't know what is wrong. I don't know what's wrong with me, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Or what's right with you or what's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Right with me, But I just got that. Like, I was curious and creative. And so there's a film called the Five Deadly Venoms. Like, old school, old school kung fu classic. And he would be like, yeah, Five Deadly Venoms. Let's make a move for each, like, thing. Because he'd be like scorpion or toad. And I would make up weird moves and try to add it into. And that was always my thing. I'd see something on the. In the movies, and I'm like, I'm going to try it in there. In there. This is all while I'm still getting beaten up, by the way as well. But that never left me. So even when I started beating all these people, now I'm doing it with the style and flair of, like, what more can I do?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You know what I mean?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's. It's so perfect for martial arts, for you, for mma. Because a lot of MMA is pattern recognition. You get. You get accustomed to certain types of movements. I know this guy's gonna do this. The calf kick's gonna be available. I'm gonna faint with this, and I'm gonna throw that. I'm gonna shoot that double here because I know he's gonna come with the overhand right. All these patterns you don't have. You don't have normal patterns. So you're moving around, your hands are down, you're sideways. And they have to make up new patterns as they go along. So they have to think, they have to react. It's such an advantage.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I always tell people that, like, the first time they're actually really going to experience this style is on the night. And you have to figure it out.

[Joe Rogan]

On the night because there's not enough guys that have what you can do that also compete in mma. There's a. This might be five or six in the whole world.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is nuts. Yeah, it's kind of nuts. It's really the. I had been saying this for decades. I'm like, this is the one thing that's missing.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then when you came over, I was like, see, this is what I'm saying. This is crazy. You can't even hit them.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's weird, though, as a blessing and a curse. Blessing, obviously. Being able. Being having the advantages of a fight. But sparring headache earlier, a lot of people wanted to kind of like, let me see what this is about. Then. Word spreads quite quickly. And I struggle with sparring. I think it's starting to come back now. People are a bit more willing. But I struggled with.

[Joe Rogan]

You just couldn't get sparring.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Couldn't get sparring. Because also. And I kind of see it from other people's point of view, it's like, well, why? I'm not going to fight anybody like that, so why, why. Why am I coming over?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but if you saw that, if you. With your mindset, I'm going, you would be like, I gotta figure out what the fuck he's doing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

100. And my teammates, they're forced to, right? And a lot of them, they even say, like, I'd spar you. And then I go spy someone else. And they feel so slow because I'm. When I'm with you, my eyes are like this. Like, I'm forced to be, like, ultra alert. And then I go on. Someone's throwing a punch of ass.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the thing, too. It's exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting. Your style's exhausting because you always have to be at high alert. There's moment. Because there's so many times where you've done like. Like a shift in rhythm, and it looks like you're slowing down, and then you explode and crack people. And you've done that so successfully so many times that if they've watched any tape there, they know there's no. There's no moments where you could catch your breath. There's no moments. And you're always putting pressure on people. You're always fainting in the faints alone. See, people don't even know you're just standing there. It looks like you're just standing there, but you're standing there and a guy's fainting and you. You never know when he's going to actually launch. And you.

[Jamie]

Y.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Your whole body is constantly tense.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't breathe.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's just their energy bar that's.

[Joe Rogan]

Doing this without anything happening, without any.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Kicks, landing no punch. Which is actually why I'm actually a big fan of like, Tom Aspinall as well. Oh, yeah, you don't really see that anywhere, full stop. But definitely not in a heavyweight division.

[Joe Rogan]

No heavyweight moves like him.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No one moves at the end.

[Joe Rogan]

He moves like a 185er.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's crazy. With that kind of explosive and that power.

[Joe Rogan]

It's crazy, crazy speed for a heavyweight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crazy spend.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's why when the Jon Jones thing was being, you know, John is one of the, if not the greatest fighter of all time, but he's not the fastest guy in the world. Yeah, he hasn't. He's just so complete. And his fight IQ is off the charts. Off the charts.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like very well rounded.

[Joe Rogan]

Very, very well. And Wild, you know, opens up his world title fight with Shogun with a flying knee.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, crazy wild.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, just. Just believes in himself, goes, confidence, goes for it. I thought that was a complicated matchup for him.

[Jamie]

It is, it is.

[Joe Rogan]

Because that guy's not easy to get to the ground. And Aspinall, and he's fast as. And he's big. Yeah, he's a legit £250, natural not, you know. No, he doesn't need anything. There's no way he can make 205 ever.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's big.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've got to train with him. And I went down there, I was like, this guy, he's a. He's a tank.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a tank. So that's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem. When you're not really a heavyweight, as great as John is.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I think John beats most heavyweights that ever existed.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a. That guy's a prop. Francis is another problem. That's another problem because you're dealing with a power real 265 pounds, solid natural, grew up in the sand mines, literally.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

His story is crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

His story is.

[Joe Rogan]

He told it on the podcast. He told the whole story of him going to Morocco and getting to Europe.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a movie, man.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm surprised nobody has jumped on that.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm surprised too. Someone needs to.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Nuts.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, that. We'll do it. We'll do it with it.

[Joe Rogan]

But when him, he was a child, working, digging sand in Cameroon. Crazy, you know, Incredible. And then you, you have incredible genetics.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you have just this fierce mindset from all the shit that guy's been through. Yeah, that. That was, that was another one. So there was two fights that I was really interested in with John at heavyweight once he won the titles like, God, bring back Francis, please. I just don't see that sort out your difference. I wish I was running shit. I feel like I'm gonna. Me and him get along great.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I just feel like. I don't know. I think sometimes it's the executives and the fighters and Dana generally gets along with people, you know, like most fighters he gets along with. But him and Francis, it didn't work.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

I love the guy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've never, I've never got the privilege of meeting him, but he just seems very sweet. Like a Big Friendly Giant outside of the cage.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Big Friendly Giant.

[Joe Rogan]

This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. We all know ultra processed food isn't good for us as humans. Why would it be any different for our dogs? The farmer's dog is real fresh food for dogs. And their recipe goes beyond just using good ingredients. It's all about how they use them. Unlike most pet food, they always use real meat and vegetables and gently cook them to retain vital nutrients without any of the bad stuff that comes from ultra processing. Their food is developed by a team of on staff board certified vet nutritionists who make sure it's all complete and balanced. And it's backed by research and made to human grade safety standards. It's portioned for your dog, making it easy to manage their weight. And they label each pack with your dog's name. That lets you know that this food is truly packed for them. Plus, they have 24, 7 customer support, so you can chat with real dog people who care about your dog anytime. The farmer's dog says good ingredients matter, but the best recipes call for so much more. Head to the farmersdog.com rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. This offer is for new customers only. It's a great guy.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

For what? Mike? I'm always saying my experiences with him, but as a fighter, make it happen. Keep him around. You gotta.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's more important.

[Joe Rogan]

It's extra extraordinary gem.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you want to talk about sellability, you want to talk about marketability. What's more marketable than a giant man who destroys everyone?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's the guy yeah, so true.

[Joe Rogan]

Drove me nuts.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I know. I think everybody. And I think that's added to people's frustrations with the Tom Aspinall fight not happening then after as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that was not on the UFC's side or on Tom's side. That was all John. Yeah. Look, John's a wizard. He knows how to play all games. And one of the games he plays. I'm retiring. No.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm bad.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But now I'm hunting after. It doesn't matter for him. He's gonna get the same amount of money. He's still Jon Jones. Like, it's all. It's all mind. Like, keep you guessing. And meanwhile, John's deadlifting every day.

[Jamie]

You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

And partying. He's just so wild. But it's like that. That fight would have been amazing to see, but to me.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So that means it probably could still happen, though.

[Joe Rogan]

I hope so.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I genuinely hope so. You know, they were talking about doing it at the White House.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Dana's like, I can't trust John to show up and be fine.

[Jamie]

Which is fair.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Which is fair.

[Joe Rogan]

There's been a few times.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Fair enough.

[Joe Rogan]

However, it would be.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It would be great.

[Joe Rogan]

Do it on a card where you have 12 other fights. Yeah, that's what I say. Who gives a. Let's see if it happens. If it doesn't happen. Doesn't happen.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's true.

[Joe Rogan]

That's. I would be. Let's go crazy. Let's go.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think what I. I guess what would happen is it that fight overshadows many fights. So if it doesn't happen, even though the fights are amazing still, people are like, it does.

[Joe Rogan]

But so what? Yeah, I mean, you know, you get. I don't know who you would do. Eliot Toporia vs. Justin Gaethje or something like that. Something crazy like that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You'd have a few other fights. It depends on what happens this weekend with Pereira. It depends on what happens with Marab and Corey Sandhagen. Those are two very complicated fights.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Beast.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Very beast, man. Such a beast.

[Joe Rogan]

Dude, he was talking to. I forgot who he was talking to. He did an interview. Oh, he was on Mighty Mouse's podcast.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

No sauna, no cold plunge, no stretching.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Doesn't do any of that.

[Joe Rogan]

Doesn't do any of that. Just no warm up. Shows up. I just show up, start to train. Just shows up, shows up and fucking hits the gas. He stays up to 12 o' clock in the morning.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just.

[Joe Rogan]

Just like his whole routine is totally Contrary to everything that you've heard before, and this is how he weight cuts. I stop eating. He just stops eating. He stops eating on Tuesday. He just stops eating, stops drinking water, keeps working out. The man's mind is a giant factor that I think a lot of people are looking at his cardio, which is a insane weapon, of course.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But the man's mind. Yeah, the toughness, the mental tough, that is Fort Knox.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You ain't getting in there. You ain't getting in there. Remember that time? Who was it? He was mounted. I forget who got him, but he got him in a mounted guillotine and he didn't. I think it might have been Ricky Simone and he. Or it was. Was. It was. Somebody else had him and he got out and then he won the fight, but he was. He was being choked unconscious for like two minutes.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he's like.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he's, like kicking his legs. There's no quitting that guy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You have to put him out.

[Joe Rogan]

Zero quit.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

In the Marlon Moraes fight, he was basically out on his feet the first round.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Just came back and stopped him. He's a monster.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's a beast. He's a beast.

[Joe Rogan]

And he keeps getting better.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, when a guy, you know, you feel like, oh, guy like that is so good. Look how good he is. He's better than everybody. No, no, no, no, no. He's still getting better.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, he's not done.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a project.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He's like, what can the human mind force the human body?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And how young is he now?

[Joe Rogan]

He's like 34, I believe so. Which is in that lightweight class. Yeah, yeah. It's a little bit more of a problem in the heavier weight classes, but I don't see anything.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like you said, his mind is.

[Joe Rogan]

His mind is a fucking steel trap.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But it's funny you say that because I don't. I don't really have structure either. So the weight cut, I do, but that's because I came in with no understanding of weight cut. And London, she was like, you do this.

[Joe Rogan]

You look so big for 170. How the fuck did you do that? How much are you cutting when you went to 170?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So even, like, now. I'm massive now.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, you look like. Let me guess, 220. What do you weigh?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Right about. Yeah, it's about two. Yeah, about 215.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Because I'm gonna do it in kg, so.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, okay. But, yeah, we never adopted so stupid. It's a way better system.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But yeah, it's. But I've never struggled to get down though, because again, I was just told. I guess it's ignorance as well, but I was just told to do these things and it's like, okay, you do.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it like? What you, when you start, like, say you get a call from the UFC eight weeks out. Okay, well, so you're not going to accept any two week fights?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No, you know, well, it depends on the fight and it depends where I'm always training.

[Joe Rogan]

But middleweight, maybe you would.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Middleweight. Yeah, middleweight.

[Joe Rogan]

You have taken some short notes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, sure.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

For, for middleweight, which was the first one. I was the first one or the second one. I did the last fight maybe, but I would take short notice fight. It's depending on where I am in training, in training. But even I just like to have a rough idea. Right. Even right now it's like trying to get. And I'm like, I'm bugging people because I've come from a circuit where we fight weekends. Right. Every weekend. We're somewhere.

[Joe Rogan]

It keeps you sharp.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then this is probably the most frustrating thing for me, obviously, starting in the Bellator and you're training all the time and then you have a fight and then you're training. I'm just like. And a lot of my fights I don't get take too much damage. So I'm like, I'm ready now. Like, yeah, give me a week off and I can come back. And then it's months and months. I'm like, who am I fighting? Who's this?

[Joe Rogan]

And the problem is you're a hard sell.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know when people get a call.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Flat dude, like, shit, I'm gonna have to learn how to dance in six weeks. Fuck.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's the thing. So I'm here and I assume, assumed wrongly, that when I get to the UFC that is gonna disperse, everyone's gonna be gunning for me. Like, yeah, I wanna, I'm gonna show everybody that this guy is, is, is a can. Like he only fought people that weren't his level.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This is still the same, I think. And obviously the more I fight, the less people are putting their hands up. I think even Whitaker said, which I respect, to be fair. He came out, I don't even wait, somebody sent me something, but he had said, like, yeah, would it be interesting? They cannot fight.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He's just like, his career, that's just a setback waiting to happen. Yeah, it's not. And his style is Very similar.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly. Yeah. I'm a massive fan of his as well. Like, I love his. Obviously, he can tie in the. The wrestling way better and just. Yeah, I. I love his style.

[Joe Rogan]

I do, too. No, and. And you got to realize, like, that guy, he's take. He's been in it for a long time. He had two wars with Yoel Romero when Yoel Romero was made out of metal.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That guy. He's still fighting.

[Joe Rogan]

Still.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

48 years old. People up, looking like he's 30.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'd swap buddies.

[Joe Rogan]

Who wouldn't? Bro, when he was in here, he was. He came in the studio. It was the most amazing thing, because Joey Diaz translated for him. So it's him and Joey Diaz going back and forth. And, you know, Joey's Cuban as well, of course. And so when. When he was here, he had to be 230 pounds.

[Jamie]

He.

[Joe Rogan]

His neck starts at the top of his ears. And one of the things that he said, man, he was talking about the Cuban system. He goes, you have to be a machine. Because he was talking about the system of, like, you get more food if you're at a higher caliber of athlete. So the.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just to get more food.

[Joe Rogan]

He's like, athletes. Yeah, man. The athletes that are the lower caliber, they eat twice a day.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

In his caliber, he's eaten three times a day. He's like. So every day. Every day, they're coming for you. You have to be on my chin. And I was like, oh, my God. And you have to look in his eyes, man. We're so soft in the West. We're so soft in the West.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

What the hell is.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't. I'm not a fan of communism. I don't believe in it, but damn, it creates a beast. Alexander Karelin. I mean, I don't know if you get. There's two things you don't get that with there's, like, substances.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

With for sure. Taking place. And then there's also. There's a regiment that they have both the Cuban system and the Russian system where they had figured out the balance between unbelievable hard work, but technical ability and recovery.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They didn't go meathead style.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

In America, we went meathead style and we burnt a lot of dudes out. But the dudes who survived were just the killers of the killers. But they probably could have made more killers like the Russians did if they did it more technically, bro, it's the same.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So again, shoots. They've been okay. They're the first MMA gym in the UK, I think, like, 95, 97.

[Joe Rogan]

I got a T shirt. I got a London Shoe Fighters t shirt from 2003.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

I couldn't find it. I was looking forward to that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crazy. So, like I said, they've been around. Yeah, I'm gonna tell them. I'm gonna tell him. They've been around a long time, and obviously they've fought with everybody. I think they fought of every. Every major competition that's ever been out. They've done boxing with the likes of, like, David Hay, Derek Chisora. Now even Dylan White did a kickboxing fight with them. You know, myself, Lee Murray, John Hathaway, even, like, Carlos Romola was the first Czech guy before Yuri to be in the ufc. That was them guys, they'd done a lot. But they're the meathead style. Yeah, they are. Like, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Everybody will anything that produce Lee Murray.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, you got that guy in your gym, it's a problem. Just the echoes of that guy's style will permeate through that gym for decades.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That guy's just an angry man.

[Joe Rogan]

He was an angry man.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But then at the same time, you needed somebody, like, because my coaches are beasts. Like, you needed that kind of militant force to be able to manage that.

[Joe Rogan]

And cope with that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's what my coaches, they are. They like, yeah, people used to come to our gym and we're just like, yeah, who's ready? And if you don't do, I'll do it myself. That's one thing I always respected about them. Even with the machines that, the fitness machines that we had to do, the scores are crazy. Like, I see people in other gyms posting their scores. I'm like, is that it? And they're celebrating it. And I'm like, we're forced to do this. The hell is that? But he'd push you. But he'd also do it himself. Like, he'd jump on a machine versus climber. Yeah, Smoke it. Fight like five fives back to back, and then running and this and that. Like, and we're doing. We have to do all of it because he's doing it and he's not doing. He hasn't got a fight.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the way you lead.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he, he.

[Joe Rogan]

Especially with killers.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the problem.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

They demand respect.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And they have to know that you're real.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Otherwise you're just some pontificator on the sidelines with a fucking clipboard. Fuck off, bitch.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Which is more nowadays, like, I'm seeing A lot of like. And to be fair, I'm a fan of a lot of these guys, like the Fighting Nerds. And again, I'm hearing that they had, I forget like a data analyst or something that's in. And he does like this, you know, he studies this and I think that's cool. Like, I feel like we, we should have like add elements of these things as well. But obviously I've just grown up by this iron. Sharp's iron.

[Joe Rogan]

It does, it's undeniable. Iron sharpens iron.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you know, there's outliers. There's a guy who will come out of a gym with nobody and he's a monster. There's just a few of those guys that exist in the.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But for the most part, like if you look at a gym like American Top Team, for example, look at how many animals have come out of that gym.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So many.

[Joe Rogan]

Pantosia, who I think does not get enough credit. He deserves. I think Pantoja is one of the greatest ever.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Guy's a monster. When that, that Japanese cat came over from Rising and he just like, like ragdolled him like he had no business. And then the, the Kaikara France rematch. Like you see the difference between when they first fought and now the difference between like a dominant all time world champion.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Y people like when he's on a card, like, people don't freak out. I'm like, God damn it. Just because he's 125 pounds. Get that out of your head. You're watching one of the greatest ever.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, but that's the thing. That's. It's the marketability of people. This is what I knew I had to get right as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And a lot of I say that to my teammates as well. I'm like, do you know how you're going to market yourself? You know, if I beat people up, it's like it doesn't always just unfortunately it should, but it doesn't. That's not what's gonna get you. If I have to, as a promotion owner and the person managing everything, I'm either gonna pick you that's beating everybody but nobody cares about or this guy that's, you know, it's pretty decent. But everyone's making noise about gonna pick that guy. So you need to be able to market yourself. And I, I knew that from the jump. And this is before really social media was massive. Massive is a thing. But I said to myself, okay, I need to look in. How am I going to market myself? Because we don't have that much time. Like, on the mic, the interviews at the time, I don't feel like people got the recognition. People just cared about the fight. They just want to watch the fight. I didn't care what you said beforehand. Unless you're arguing or shouting, you know, there's. There's beef.

[Joe Rogan]

Unless you grab that mic and go crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta go crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Chael Sonnet was the first.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, he's the best. Yeah, he was.

[Joe Rogan]

He figured it out before.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Anderson Silva, you absolutely, absolutely suck. He's the best fighter, but he's still.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This is why he's on the mic now.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, but it was.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's the best.

[Joe Rogan]

Perfect. Yeah, it was perfect, but there was balance with that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

There was. For me, there's perfect balance. Like, it. It wasn't too far. It was exactly what you wanted, right? Exactly what you need to. To market a fight and to promote himself.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, yes, I agree with you, but.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Well, yeah, again, it's weird, though, because I think authenticity is important when you do that as well, though. And Conor McGregor kind of is the next person for me that's kind of delivered that.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, 100. He took it to a whole nother level.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

A whole nother level. Every time this guy's on the mic, he'll say one line and I'm like, t shirts, easy.

[Joe Rogan]

Jeremy Stevens is yelling at him, and he goes, who the is that guy?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You can't beat this guy. I'm just like, why did you even open your mouth, bro?

[Joe Rogan]

So funny, man. It's so funny.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But you. And you need to be able to do that. Like, I. Before I even had my first fight, I would. I spent hours. I was a big WWE fan, and I felt like the Rock, you know, Dwayne Johnson, for out of all of them, was the best at marketing himself. He had the crowd in the palm of his hands. Every word that he said, and it was simple sayings. And I was like, yeah, I studied here. Studied this. Like, okay, okay. And even, like, his stances, he'd come up, like, jump on the ropes and put his hand up and just stand there. Just like, look around. You know what I mean? Like, he just. He just demanded eyes. So again, I just came to, okay, what. What could I do? What could I. So I was like, okay, you know Venom, you know, the snake. I relate to a snake. Okay. Like, okay, yeah, let me. Let me do this. Okay, okay, okay, that's check. I got stance that I can do. Okay. I need a saying. Okay, like, what can I say? Cuz. Again, I used to listen to people on after fighting fights and I didn't hear anything they said. They're like, yeah, I'm. Because, yeah, beat that guy. Yeah. Thank you for my sponsors. Who, who were your sponsors? Didn't hear anything. So I'm like, it has to be like, concise. I have to say specific words and just, I write this stuff down. But again, I speak to my team. It's like, bro, what are you guys doing? You need to do this kind of stuff and understand that this is a part of your game. You've got five seconds after the fight on the mic, if that. What are you, what are you going to say? What message is going to land? What is going to make you memorable? And I do things on my walk ins as well. I need people to remember There's. They're watching 16 fights on the night. Why do they remember me? Yes. My, my style is exciting. That's cool. Yeah, there's this weird guy, does some weird stuff with his arms and that is quite cool. But they're not going to remember my name. I need other things to keep them coming back. Oh, there's this guy in the Wayans. He stood above this guy, put his snake hand up and then, oh, that's the same guy that did the dance. Because now you're getting it from different places. That's the guy that threw the Pokeball. Oh, what's his name? What's his name? The more times you keep hitting them with different things, the more times they're more likely kind of really buy into you. I think this is why I was able to create a big enough brand before even touching the ufc, just because I paid attention to that.

[Joe Rogan]

You were the one of the first guys to make a name for yourself in Bellator because Bellator, it was hard to break out. Yeah, there was some wild fights in Bellator that never got recognized. How about the Eddie Alvarez, Michael Chandler beast? Crazy. And I feel like those guys left a lot of who they are in there.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, unfortunately.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we got them kind of after.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And Chandler's still remarkably durable, but that's just a discipline thing and a hard work day.

[Jamie]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think he's just accustomed to, like you said, he's been, he's trained a certain way his whole life. He's always gonna have that kind of athleticism.

[Joe Rogan]

But he's, you know, 30 now. I mean, it's like you can only. I wished he had not been in Bellator. Look, I, I'm all for competition. I think competition's Important. I don't think there should be a monopoly in the MMA business. I think it's bad for the athletes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, definitely.

[Joe Rogan]

I love the fact that PFL overpays.

[Jamie]

People keep doing it.

[Joe Rogan]

I like it. Give them a million dollars. Everybody get a million dollars. Everybody gets a car. I wish there was more organizations.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I hope one FC succeeds.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You know, it does help.

[Jamie]

It help.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That helped me as well. Even in my negotiation.

[Joe Rogan]

Everything.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

However.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a caliber of athlete.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That I feel like should only be in the ufc.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you're one of those guys.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

I appreciate it.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a caliber of athlete where, like, I want to see how good they really are, you know, like some guy like Patchy Mitch.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Patchy Mix is a beast. He's a bad. But so's Mario Bautista. Mario Bautista had the perfect game plan to up his party, but that dude, when he was in Bellator, was of that caliber. I was like, I want to see him over here, man.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I. I personally, and obviously, because I've experienced it, for me, the first time I got nervous in an MMA fight was my first fight in the ufc. No, my first fight ever. And then after that, I was like, oh, yeah, this is the same as when I was fighting the kickboxing one. I'm cool. I didn't have any. I didn't get them nerves again. The first time again, since then was the first. No, sorry. Weird enough. The second fight in the UFC against Ian Gary. Now, the first fight, I don't know why, I just. I don't know what it was, but I was quite relaxed. And then the second fight, I was like, oh, it's something a reality hit me of, like, oh, you're in the ufc, the people are going to demand a certain thing from you, and you've got a reputation of before, of the knockouts, of the celebrations, of the walk ins, of the this, of the that, and then I just let that put a weight on me.

[Jamie]

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy that it was the second fight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I. I can't even explain as to why it was the second fight and not the first one. And then even the third fight, I still had that kind of, oh, man, I'm not performing the way I want, and I felt like I'm eager to impress, and I never felt like that in bed at all. But at the ufc, I'm like, I'm trying my best.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, it's the same thing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's the same thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Cage, cameras, people, same thing, same thing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But I just. The magnitude of it, I don't know. I. I'm guessing it's what we all grew up with. It's what everyone grows up with. It's like, this is where, like I said, there was always question marks around my name. I was. Jump, jump knees and this and that. Always question marks around my name still. But then now I'm here. It's like, oh, actually, I can. These guys can respect me now. Actually respect me now because I'm here.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then I'll just, like, trying too hard, trying too hard. Trying too hard. The last fight was the first time I was like, you're back. I'm back. And this is why I just keep getting me back in the cage, because I swear to you, this, that I got. I'm back to where I used to be and how I used to feel.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just an issue of getting guys that are willing to fight you that are of a certain caliber.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Because, you know, obviously right now you're pretty big, so for you to get down to 170 again would be a real problem. Are you committed to 185 or are you. No, no, you open either one.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I want 170. I can see a clear pathway. Even after my last fight, I messaged Hunter and I literally like, look. Oh, let me fight. It was Morales.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I was like, look, another undefeated guy. Perfect fight. Like, he's a beast. Like, I'm. I'm ready. Let me take him then. And I said what I could do after that is in, like, December, I think I said, or no, March next year. I was like, yeah, give me that for November. Like, March next year. Usually come back to the uk. Let me fight the winner of Leon, Edwards and Pratas. I was like, another great fight there.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then you've got July card. Obviously, everyone's going to put their hand up to be on that, but I said, if you guys want me to be on that again, I'll fight for whoever you want. And in that top range, pick. I don't care who it is. Pick somebody. I'll fight them. And then I want a title shot or you give me the title there. Like, yeah, but I'm like, I can see a clear path to where. What I want. And it's just everything seems slow, which I did. Like I said, I didn't expect coming to the ufc. I thought.

[Joe Rogan]

I think there's just too many athletes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

There is a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

I think they. They have on contract more than 500.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Damn.

[Joe Rogan]

How many athletes does the UFC have under contract. Throw that into.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But then also, they're.

[Jamie]

They're.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think. And, you know, obviously, I'm managed by a paradigm with Audi. And he said he feels like the Paramount deal is they're having to integrate that now as well. And I'm like, I didn't think about that. But every time Bellator. Because Bellator kept getting new partnerships, it did slow things down a little bit.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, that would make sense. So, yeah, that doesn't start until January.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But obviously they're sorting out contracts and things from now, and then they obviously have to try and align the shows. And I'm guessing, obviously. I don't know, but I'm just saying it just feels even slower than before. And I'm like, I was.

[Joe Rogan]

That sucks.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I'm like, I just want to be back out there. I don't care. Just. And this is why I'm happy to take 674.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

674 fighters under contract, and they don't have fights every week. They have fights almost every week, but not every week that. I mean, just think about that. So you have 52 weeks. You have all these fighters. Fighters want to fight multiple times a year.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I appreciate that, but I'm mvp, man.

[Jamie]

Let's go.

[Joe Rogan]

I am with you. I'm with you. I always say that I wish I was a matchmaker, but I don't.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's the hardest job.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I talked to Joe Silva back in the day, when he did it, he hated it. Dealing with everybody and managers and. And people flake out.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Fail drug tests. Like, God damn it. And these guys, you know, would. What they're doing right now is very difficult because what. What Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby are dealing with is the volume is so much greater.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's so. And there's so many more really good guys, like, in almost every division, like, guys are coming in from the Contender series. That guy looks like a world championship caliber fighter. Talent's off the charts right now, and it's because they get to watch.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, these are the kids that are growing up watching Anderson Silva. They're growing up watching Jon Jones first fight. They're growing up watching the early Chuck Liddell fights.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it's normal.

[Joe Rogan]

It's totally different.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They, like, when they're play fighting with their friends, they're in stances that look right. You know, they know what they're.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

They know the names of every submission. And this is so true.

[Joe Rogan]

They're calf kicking each other in the fucking schoolyard. It's a totally different world.

[Jamie]

Very true.

[Joe Rogan]

And those kids are going to grow up and that's going to be integrated their neuromuscular system.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they're going to learn. There's guys coming along that are like elite black belt level jiu jitsu, elite stand up elite wrestling, takedown defense, cardio off the charts. And they're 22. And you're like, this is nuts.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Now it's just about whether you can compete.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Whether you could pull it off and keep your head together on fighting.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Which is again, I think is something that people don't speak about enough.

[Joe Rogan]

Listen, it's. Aaron Pico is as talented as they come. Right. That dude is a vicious boxer. Incredible wrestling gold chip prospect from the very. But lerone Murphy is another guy. Was not. I was saying before that this is the guy that's not getting the credit he deserves because you got all these loud killers at 145, but you got this one dude that does everything perfect.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he's beating everybody. He's beating everything etching away.

[Joe Rogan]

And he doesn't take damage and he's clever and he's slick and he does things. And every technique is perfect.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He doesn't.

[Joe Rogan]

And there's no fat on anything. There's no wild winging punches. Everything's tight. That spinning elbow was a work of art. He just knew Aaron Pico's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That was a crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's the difference between someone who can compete at the highest level.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And someone's accustomed to it, right?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the knowing when to hit the gas, when not. To Pico, it's just all gas, no brakes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like you said. It's like similar to Michael Chandler again.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just like in that rage mode all the time.

[Joe Rogan]

All gas, no breaks. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Take your time.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's a wrestler thing too. They always want to break people because in wrestling you can do that. You can have that mentality where you constantly in the gas because you're not going to get knocked out with a flying knee.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

True, true, true. Changes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Because you get that. That's how you compete. You get this mindset of I'm gonna dominate. I know what I did in training for this. My gas tank's off the charts. My aggression's off the charts. I'm a killer. I'm gonna dominate. I'm moving forward.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

The problem is with a guy like Laron is like, you think he's Backing up.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's coming forward. Oh, that was amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, the timing, it was just like.

[Jamie]

Oh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But Pico even stepped right into the elbow.

[Joe Rogan]

It was ruthless.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It made it ten times worse.

[Joe Rogan]

Ruthless.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's, that's my thing, the car crash effect when you create those collision.

[Joe Rogan]

So for a guy like Laron, who's not a big marketing guy, not a big, like, doesn't say wild on the microphone, just steady, professional does his job. He needs to do that, right? He needs like this spectacular thing where all of a sudden everybody goes, yeah, he needs to fight Alexander Volkanovsky. And that looks like that's what's going to happen now because of that one performance, which is.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm so happy for him. He's a cool guy, man. I'm so happy for him. But this is why I tell people, if he had just a little bit, a little bit of chat, a little bit of show your personality or something. Give me something.

[Joe Rogan]

You have that?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No, but you know what it is? I always say, like, everyone, like Demetrius Johnson for me is. Is one of the greatest of all time. All time.

[Joe Rogan]

Of all time. Another underappreciated guy because of his size.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But I feel like underappreciated because you can't market him in the exact same way as you'd market like a Conor McGregor or somebody else like that. But he's a gamer. I'm like, shed a light on. There's a massive. Yeah. Massive community of gaming. That industry is billion dollars deep. Market this guy because he's on. He goes back home and he's just.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, yeah, he's one of them.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's one of those guys.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But again, we didn't see. I don't feel like we saw any of that until afterwards when he was kind of like doing his own thing. When he's on now, obviously doing a lot of these YouTube time. I'm happy. I'm so happy that he's, you know, he's getting redirected kind of when he.

[Joe Rogan]

Went to one that he started doing more of the game and stuff online.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But he. No, he had been doing it, though.

[Joe Rogan]

He had been doing it.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But again, it's just more.

[Joe Rogan]

I guess they didn't capitalize.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, that's what I mean how certain people, you have to like, what is your thing? Right. Not everybody is just the fighting. They have things, like, things to kind of release, like wind down and. You know what I mean?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Find that out. He's killing everybody anyway, so how else can we Market. Instead of being like, ah, can't market him the same. He doesn't talk, he doesn't do. Say anything. There must be something there. There has to be something else there we could look into.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's. It's interesting because some guys, their personality is no personality. Like Pereira.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

His personality. Stone face. Yeah, yeah, Just stone face. Destroyer, Death machine. Here he comes. Amazon warrior. Like literal, actual Amazon warrior. Yeah, like not. Not a faker. His family comes from a tribe in the Amazon.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But then that's what he markets, though.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I guess that's what they market. But it was.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He markets that.

[Joe Rogan]

Markets.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He works out that. That walk out.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, that's true, bro.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I do it myself. When he's walking out, I'm just waiting for him.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, that's true.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's what I mean, though. I mean, like, that's.

[Jamie]

You. He.

[Joe Rogan]

You.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You're telling. You're selling your story with just something so simple.

[Joe Rogan]

A very good point that I didn't even think of. Yeah, his walk out, his walk out, his walkout gives you the best in the sport.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that's what I'm trying to say.

[Joe Rogan]

Music.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Jungle music behind you. Just to walk just like this Amazon warrior.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's simple. Everyone can relate to it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's consistent. So I'm always gonna. Oh, that's the guy.

[Joe Rogan]

And you see kids in the audience throw the 1, 2.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, they do it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like I said, I' I'm a big wrestling fan. I see. It's those moments that everybody will remember and everybody will do.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. When Stylebender came into the Undertaker.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, beast. But that's what I'm trying to say is those kind of things that people just don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I'm talking the fighters themselves, obviously. I feel the UFC can do their bit as well, but technically, you're already on the platform. That's going to show you to everybody. So then it's your job to figure it out as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Another aspect of the game.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like strength and conditioning. Like all these different things.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly. Just think about it. You're.

[Joe Rogan]

You're professional. Figure out how to market yourself. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You are the product.

[Joe Rogan]

The problem is, though, it does lead to, like, cringe moments or something. It's your personality. And some guys try it. It's like, yikes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You gotta take the risk. Because if it goes well. It goes well. Yeah, it goes well. So, like, as you said about Alex Burke, technically, we wouldn't care if he walked out of that and got knocked out we wouldn't give a. Yeah, but he's a killer.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. That fight this weekend is very, very interesting.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because so here's the downside to fighting all the time. Fighting all the time with your style is a very different thing because you take so little damage, which is another huge element. Like, I kind of would tell people that if you have a kid and your kid wants to learn martial arts and they want to eventually be an MMA fighter, I would say two things. Number one, wrestling. Take that kid and teach him how to wrestle. Because if you could just develop takedown defense and understanding of grappling, at least you have a base from the time you're real.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That should be your base.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's the most important aspect of the fight if you can't grapple.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

A guy can take you down and you can hold you down. You can't do about it. Number two, learn how to point fight.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Learn how to point fight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Learn distance control.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a different thing that you guys are doing if you got like. Like people think of Billy Banks as Taebo.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You got to go back and watch Billy Blanks when he was a karate wizard. Dude.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

He was a wizard. And he was hitting people where you couldn't hit him.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, although the old school guys were all like light on the feet, bladed style, and they had this leap in ability that if you're used to a guy standing in front of, it's a giant problem and you don't have the timing to solve it. You could go two, three rounds deep before you start actually landing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't do anything to them.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a giant problem. And I would say you want to be the person giving the other person that problem.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Then you can learn all the other stuff, too. Learn your. Your boxing fundamentals and Muay Thai and knees and elbows. But. But if they're nowhere near you and you can hit them, you can close that gap. You have a blitz.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So, I mean, understanding that distance control.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. And also the feints, the stutter steps.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Those things change the game.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. There's so much movement in that style of fighting that just keeps. Gets lost when people are plotting and just keeping each other in the stomach and kicking the legs.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But it's funny, people always used to go on about me and Wonder Boy Thompson fighting, and I'd always say, like, it won't be as exciting as you think for us. Like, me and him. There'll be moments where we're bouncing, faking. And we'll laugh at each other because we saw what would have happened if one of us went. But the crowd's like the is going fight. The are you guys doing smiling at each other like they don't get the fight that's going on right in the moment. And I say it's not as exciting. Two pluses don't always give you that plus.

[Joe Rogan]

Not always. But you still want to see it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Of course. People always want to, just never.

[Joe Rogan]

It's also like fighting doesn't have to always be ultimate excitement. You have to like. That's why I say no stand ups ever. When a guy takes the guy down, that person on the bottom does not want to be on the bottom. They want to be up. If they can't get up, up, tough. It's only five rounds. Every fight starts, ends it up which is a giant advantage for a striker because otherwise they wouldn't be able to get themselves up.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So none of that. See it's got, it's got to be pure, it's got to be real. You can't have like ways that a guy won only because the rules set it up for him to get to a better position. I agree.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

The only, the only thing that I find slightly frustrating in those in that element is I don't mind the rest of. I think the wrestling is a beautiful art and is like you said, one of the most important arts to dictate where you want the fight to go. But if you're taking me down, try to kill me.

[Joe Rogan]

I agree.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Try to try to finish the fight. Don't just take me down and just.

[Joe Rogan]

I agree.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've had people like grabbing my legs and looking at the clock.

[Joe Rogan]

Here's the thing. If they're not good enough to kill either you.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

What if they're good enough to take you down and hold you down, but then they just have to be real defensive afterwards and they'll throw a little pity P. I know, I know.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's the only element that I just.

[Joe Rogan]

But here's the thing. They're not good enough to do more. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like, but you must be though.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe only good enough. Like you're so good and they're just good enough to hold you down. But if they've rained up and started range and then you framed off, I get back. You got the half guard, you got back up to your feet. All of a sudden we're dealing with this again. But stay on top I don't take any chances now you can't do.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I agree.

[Joe Rogan]

It just boring as.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it's not for me, it's not even a boring element of it. Like I still enjoyed that aspect. If I was watching only during that aspect because I know what I'm looking at now. Like I'm like, oh, he's. He's got. Okay. Like he's got the. He's grabbed his wrist egg. Okay. I can see what he's trying to work to. Okay. No, he didn't get it. Okay. I can. I'm still in the fight.

[Joe Rogan]

Fight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Whereas some people, I guess the people. If you don't get into grappling, you're not going to know what's happening other than they're just lying there. So I get it for them but for me still, it's just that the aim of this game is for me to beat you. And I mean like take. Knock you out, put you to sleep. So I'm trying to show you that I am the stronger man as a warrior. And that's not by holding you. Right. That's not by holding you down. Holding you down to get you to position to land his elbow and hold you down to get the position to land his body.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But just to.

[Joe Rogan]

I completely agree. However, even though I'm a fan of yours, if a wrestler who had that boring style took you down and held you down for three rounds and won a decision, I'd be like, damn, he did it. Yeah, he did it because he can't do it any other way. If he can't stand up with you, he's going to get up and he can take you down anytime. Why would he ever let you up? And if losing position is dangerous. So like if you're very explosive and you're very good at grappling, you're very good on the bottom. You've got submissions off the bottom. If a guy reigns up and starts throwing shots but he feels like his base is gone and he just wants to clinch and hold on and maintain position and he maintains position with this kind of, you know, doing this kind of just little movements like he's still getting away with that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I just.

[Joe Rogan]

Cuz that might be his only pat right for you. He's. But the thing is he's not good enough.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Where then you have guys like Khabib. Khabib gets you down. You're getting up and you're getting.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Everybody loves that. Everybody loved it. He's talking to you. He's creating that space, but still pinning you.

[Joe Rogan]

He's crushing your legs. Legs.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he's trying to choke you down on you. That I can appreciate all day, every day.

[Joe Rogan]

I can too. But some guys aren't good enough.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They're still fighting.

[Jamie]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

They're in there. They're not good enough. There's guys at a world class level that are not going to be world champions. But they might be able to beat a guy who could be a world champion if they can do that thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It just.

[Joe Rogan]

It sucks.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I know, I know.

[Jamie]

It's just hard.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's hard to class you as a world championship fighter. Then I think you're a world champion.

[Joe Rogan]

Khamzat then.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Dricus Du Pussy is a perfect example of that. You got an elite grappler who dominated the fight without. With very little damage.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. In. When I dominated it to the point where you're. You're in the worst position you could be in in mma. You're in a crucifix position over and.

[Joe Rogan]

Over again every round over and over again.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And you.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't do about it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You let him just.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't do about it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But so do you think that is. He's worried about his. Him exploding? Because in my head I'm like, the fight ends if I keep. If I elbow the shit out of you right now.

[Joe Rogan]

Whether worried about the chaos and Drake is getting back to his feet and you know, they wanted to just win. This is the whole thing. Because he came back to his corner apparently. And this was told to me secondhand. But I'm pretty sure it's true.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

By a reliable source that he was saying can I box now? Is like, no.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Not his team was like take him down. He can't. Look, if you got that clear of.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

A dominance I still agree with though, as the coach is saying no, get take him down. But I'm saying once you are in that position.

[Joe Rogan]

Smash. Smash.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Your whole thing is smash.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Smash the out this.

[Joe Rogan]

What the hell? Like I think they just wanted that win no matter what. You know? Cuz it's like it's such a big deal. Hamzat finally got a shot at the title. Like, just like what is the clearest, most intelligent. You're betting a billion dollars on this fight. What's the best way to victory? Yeah, just take him down.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You can take him down anytime you want to hold him down. Punch him a few times.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Make sure in dominant position so you're not going to get stood back up.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

If the referee starts talking to you and telling you to. Got it. Start a little bit of this, do a little bit of that, fake a submission, don't throw all your gas into it, you know, do whatever the you got to do, but get that goddamn title title.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And then, then you know there's going to be some guys that he can't do that too.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's where things get interesting.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But who would you say that is, though? Because he's. That his wrestling style is just crazy.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's.

[Joe Rogan]

So Brandon Schaub had been to his training camp, okay. And he called me up. He goes, he goes, bro, we gotta talk. He goes, I just got back watching Hamza train. He goes, I've never seen anything like that in my life. He's like, dude, when I'm telling you, he's mopping the floor with like division one, All Americans, world class grapplers, jiu jitsu, black belts. He goes, he's mopping the floor with people. He goes, it's nuts.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because they asked me if I want to spar with him. Shop goes, you. He's like, fuck you, I'm not going in there. He goes, he was mauling people on the ground. He goes, I never seen anything like it. He goes, it was, it was crazy. He goes, he's so high level.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I had the privilege of going to the gym and in Dubai guy and train alongside him and sort of myself. And it's.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, it's a shocking level of grappling.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And when you can achieve that shocking level of grappling on world class MMA fighters, why wouldn't you do it? This is, this is my thing, my take on it. Like, if you just want to win and make as much money as possible and keep doing that, I mean, you should finish guys whenever you can.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you don't think you can in the path to victories, grab the. This is still a sport.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

If it wasn't a sport, there'd still be headbutts.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Stamps.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Soccer kicks, all the wild that used to be. You'd still be able to wear shoes. Who gives a. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's a sport. So if it's a sport, we've got some rules.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I just don't think, I don't think there's anything wrong with winning by the rules. It's not my favorite style. My favorite style is either a knockout artist or a submission artist. I like a guy who just finishes everything.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oliveira, when he was.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

When he's in his prime.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

His prime. Just kidding.

[Joe Rogan]

Catching triangles and Dar's. Oh, my God, he was a monster. He was so good. Those guys. Like, when you watch a guy who's like an elite world class submission artist and the fight goes to the ground, it's just a totally different thing, you know, you're in real. Like Fabricio Verdum when he was in his prime, when he caught Fedor with that triangle.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Bro, that's.

[Joe Rogan]

Catching Fedor with a triangle is crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Just if you know how explosive that guy is and how fast he is and strong and what a great grappler he is.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Fabricio Verdum's another guy who doesn't get his due. When you think about all time goats.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You think about Nogueira, you think about Fedor and you think about Minotauro and Fabricio Verdum tapped them all.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He tapped all the greats.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Very true.

[Joe Rogan]

All of them.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Tapped them.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Tapped them all the greats. Didn't just win by a decision.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Didn't just hold down Fedor.

[Joe Rogan]

When Fedor was Fedor, people like, whoa, that's crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Fatal's a beast, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

He was a monster, stoic warrior.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

From Russia. Not. No expression.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And his.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's the earliest of his time. Oh, way ahead of his first of his time.

[Joe Rogan]

Way ahead of his time. His ability to catch submissions off his back with lightning speed. He had a lightning fast arm bar.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And power on the feet.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

He walked down Crocop.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Crazy. Was standup.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crocod's head kicks were insane.

[Joe Rogan]

Did every kick, every kick. But, like, Fedor was blocking them so intelligently, too. He was using that high block with the knee way up like that to catch that left kick. And he caught it. They caught it shin to shin many times. It was. That was a crazy fight. But Fedor in his prime was so good, man, because he was the first guy other than Minotauro Minaro. But he was more dangerous on the feet than Minotauro. But Minotauro on the ground was like one of the first guys, like, super dangerous. Off his back.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Just super, super lethal guard. Like when he beat Bob Sapp. That was the nuttiest fight in the history of MMA. That was the nutty. Bob Sapp was 350 pounds with ass.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I was gonna say he's like. He's kind of like your. Your Nganu nowadays, babe, but way bigger.

[Joe Rogan]

And way bigger, but not as Skin.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Knowing it, he's gotten.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Francis's improvement because in his earlier stages, I was just like, yeah, he's got power, but he's technically like.

[Joe Rogan]

Francis basically beat Tyson Fury in a boxing match.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Crazy, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Basically because I, I scored it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I scored it for him. 100.

[Jamie]

They did.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

They just couldn't, they could not let that happen.

[Joe Rogan]

He dropped Tyson Fury with a left hook and then danced in front of him. I mean, that's, that's that skill. I mean, he wasn't ready for Anthony Joshua because Anthony Joshua would. Was a different thing. Yeah, he's got more. One shot knockout.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It was bad game. I know he likes the switching, but again, this is where the boxing is. If you don't have that kind of intellect in the box and that footwork and foot positioning is put your foot on one side, you're gonna get killed. You're putting the foot on the other side. Yeah, you're, you're, you're safe. You can kind of manage, manage the power and, and see the punches coming. But he was. Kept switching stances by just putting and leaving himself in just the wrong positions.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he wasn't ready.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Wasn't ready. He wasn't ready. There was a lot of hype off the Fury fight also.

[Joe Rogan]

Joshua got to watch him box in the Fury fight. See some patterns. Fury, I think, probably took him lightly.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yes, I think so.

[Joe Rogan]

It's one of the greatest of all time. This guy's never had a boxing match. At the beginning of the fight, he's like, time to go to school. Like, oh, really?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then he probably got stunned. He just got stunned. And that was it. He's now working.

[Joe Rogan]

You talk to any fighter, they will tell you the worst times of their life is when they, they thought that a guy was nothing.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then in the middle of the fight, they realized, oh, my God, I'm losing.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

They took a guy lightly and they didn't get up for the fight. And then they went in there and that dude was fired up and ready to go.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, you got.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But that's saying you can't take anybody lightly, though.

[Joe Rogan]

No. Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, another perfect.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, yeah. 100.

[Joe Rogan]

No one.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This guy was partying every day.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly. He did not take it seriously.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He did not take it seriously at all. You got big. The biggest respect for Buster Douglas on that one, though. That was.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God. It was one of the greatest performances of any heavyweight title fight.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

To want to walk in and do that as well.

[Joe Rogan]

The fact that that guy could do that the whole time, but only did it against. Mike Tyson is nuts, because he was one of those guys and we all know them that is super talented and just never realizes their full potential. Like Jim. You know guys in the gym, they're like, you'd see him sparring.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I talk about this all the time. Like, I've had so many people, obviously, I've got to see over the years that are talented, and again, it's the same thing. But can you do it when it counts? Can you do it when the lights are on? Can you do it when there's pressure and it means something to you? That's you, your friends, your family, money, Money.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Can you still do it? Yeah, that's when it counts. But I've seen guys that are. There's a guy, actually, and I always talk about him just because he was super unique and weird enough he got to the UFC for. On a short stint galore. Buffondo, I don't know if you ever remember him. He only did. He only had two fights, but he fought Charlie Ward, and I. I call it Hadouken. He just grabbed him and, like, threw his head into the floor.

[Jamie]

Oh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it was a ko. And I don't. He actually never got the bonus for that. I don't know how he didn't, because I've never seen anybody just throw someone's head down. You need to watch it.

[Jamie]

Oh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Boom. There you go. And if you. If you keep it going and you see how he finishes, look, he's like, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And if you see the finish, look at. This is how athletic this guy was. Just watching. Watch light work. Just landed just a little. Perfect spider stance. Yeah. Perfect landing. Now, I had to deal with this every day.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And that was nothing. He's super explosive. But again, he's a striker. Very weird striker. Like, kicks. His kicks are like his hands. He can. For ages.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I was sparring him one time, and me and him, like, I'm the guy with him. When he steps in, my eyes do this, and I'm like, okay. I have to make sure I'm. Because a kick will come from anywhere. And we're sparring, going back, going back and forth, and I'm in my element, and everything slows down for me. And I see his head drop down, and alarm bells are going off, and I'm like, he doesn't shoot. He doesn't go for takedowns. But I'm feeling alarm bells going on, like something's gone wrong. I don't Know why this felt this slow? Something is wrong. And I've never done this block in my life. And I went like this. X block. I've never done this in my life. Never been taught this. My body said, throw your hands. He did that and did a cartwheel kick, front flip.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, geez.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Landed on his foot and axe kicked me. If I didn't do that, I'd be sitting here in thousand two two right now talking to you about the story that I once used to do mma and this guy split me in half.

[Jamie]

He.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he's Front flip action. He's done a front flip ax kick on his Instagram. I don't know if you'll find it, but on his Instagram there's clips of him doing it on a bag. And he literally flips, lands on his foot, hits the bag, and he's just standing. But he did it. I've blocked it now. Even that alone, because I've now blocked it. You should fall off. Balance sense. He took his foot off and carried on sparring. Everyone in the gym was like, what the.

[Joe Rogan]

What the hell was that? I never even thought anyone could do that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's another person that in the cage, he never showed this stuff. I've seen him somewhat on a single leg, and he's run up the cage and slipped up the single leg and kicked off the cage and landed behind the person and started. Always when I talk about this, it sounds like I'm exaggerating him. He used to do stuff that I've net. It's only in games.

[Joe Rogan]

And this is why everyone watching him do that flip. I believe every word you're saying.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's.

[Joe Rogan]

Because that was crazy. The landing was crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. Like, it was like this.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

No, he landed softly on one knee.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, he was insane, but just never showed it.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Never retired. Yeah, he's like. He just. He teaches and stuff now, but he just. And it's a shame. And he was a fun character. Like I said, an amazing person to train with because he made me better. Because he's. And he's got the few people that in the gym that could actually kick me in the head and wow. And catch me. Because I usually. I'm good at seeing. I got good eyes. And he's just. Yeah, it was just something else crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

That you knew it. Like you had intuition.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't know what happened, but something said, if you don't do this, you're going to die today.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. That's crazy that you recognize that. Of all movements.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. But again, he's because, like, he never shoots. He's a striker. He'll sprawl and then start doing his jiu jitsu from there. Never really shoots. And he just went like this. And I'm like, what's going on here?

[Joe Rogan]

There's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't feel like sprawling. Something's wrong, but I don't feel like sprawling. Oh, here you go. Here you go.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He does one. He does one.

[Jamie]

And he lands.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He does one. He lands it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. That is so crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Imagine doing that during sparring. It doesn't make sense. And he's. He's. I'm talking. He's hitting the bag.

[Joe Rogan]

Boom.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Look.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I tell people. People feel like you're talking rubbish. You can hear that.

[Jamie]

Oh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

If that hit me.

[Joe Rogan]

That is. Is so wild.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I wish he was able to show this stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

Illusion, you have to. Have to pull that off. The amount of force you generate.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And who would see that coming? I don't. I still don't to this day know how I saw it coming. But wow. If he did that and again he goes into. He went into these fights and he would. It would be relatively basic. It would. He wouldn't show all of this kind of stuff. Stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

So he would tighten up in fights.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, he just tighten up a little bit and just wouldn't express himself in the same way.

[Joe Rogan]

Did anybody at that time work with, like, a mental coach?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No, not. I wouldn't. From our gym. The only person I I know did it from our gym was actually Alex Reed. And. But he is a weird character anyway. Funny guy, lovely guy. But he used to have, like, therapists come and do this kind of stuff. And at the time, he.

[Joe Rogan]

He.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I feel like I didn't care for it because he just made it seem lame. It's just because it was from him. But I understand more so as over my time the importance of the mental aspect of things as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe if someone could explain to him or if you could have a conversation about what goes wrong when he competes.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like what. What are the thought process when he competes and what could be done different. Different to change that thought, like, to combat them when they. Those thoughts come up.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

To have a tool.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Have a mental toolbox. We go, no, no.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

We're not going to entertain this kind of negativity. We're going to stay positive. We're going to stay Zen.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, the most important things. Don't ever give in. Anxiety. Don't let it get to you don't let it fall. You're positive, you're breathing, you're moving, you're a killer. Keep moving. And just have someone with him maybe initially to coach him through those movements.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I wish there was some again. But again, also maybe the, the gym that he's in with us at London. Shoot, that's. That was, that's not a thing. It's right. We beast like, we're just gonna. And the thing is, he was, he, he still look amazing up until the fight. He'd get to the fight and you'd be like, bro, I can't wait for people to see this.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And he'd get there and you're like, what are you doing, man?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it was just, it was frustrating because he's still super, super, still super talented. He's still, you know, he won one, I think he lost the next one, and then that was it. But even his previous fights before that, he's got some exceptional fights, but just.

[Joe Rogan]

Not what he's capable of doing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've never seen what I've seen in the gym, on stage.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Never seen. And he still got signed to the UFC just because he was still talented. But. And obviously somebody saw his talent was like, yeah, I want that, but. And nobody's ever seen what I've seen this guy do. And all of our teammates are like, if you go seeing that, this. Yeah. Everybody would be throwing money at this guy. Just make sure he's on the next card. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's really crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it seems to be like that in almost every sport.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But in fighting in particular.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's the biggest mental hurdle. You know, there's. There's no team to fall back on. There's no. I guess we lost tonight, boys. No. You got up in front of the whole world and that's the sport that you're in. You're in the sport with the highest highs and the lowest lows. So that pressure is just, just. It's unexplainable to the average person.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I. You can't explain it, really. This is why I try my best to focus on the element of fun. Cuz I feel like when I'm in, When I'm dancing, smiling, laughing, joking, everything slows down and everything's enjoyable. There's no stress. And anytime I feel slightly stressed, you might see me dance. Which is interesting because people just think I'm just doing it for the other person to mock the other person. And sometimes it's just, ah, just stay Chill, man. You're here, you're here. Like, you don't need to do anything more than this, right? If I feel like a little bit like, oh, that was a bit. And my mind starts going, no, no, no, no, let's shake it off. Get into this. Get into your mode again and then go back to enjoying yourself. That's my. But I know some people need to be in this angry state and this, you know, psych themselves into it. And I don't even need to be angry at my opponent. And I think that comes from the fact that I used to have to fight my siblings. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

It's never.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's not based on anger. I love them. Like, but my dad is. You say, like, yeah, that's not your sibling on the map. But straight afterwards, make sure you pick that person up, make sure they're good. And again, my brother would beat me up, other brother beat me up, my sister would beat me up, everybody. But I still had love for them. So I don't. I never need to. Needed anger to thing. And. And the fact that my family did this thing and even my nephews and stuff now, we still. They still. It's generational, just something that keeps us all together and we're so close. It's not based on being angry, just based on learning something, enjoying something, and doing it with people that you love. So I can. That's why I can make it fun. Everyone. Everyone loves this whole, like, tense, like. And I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

I think what a lot of people don't understand, too, is the hardest part of it is the day of the fight. It's not the fight. Once a fight starts happening.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, yeah, you're in there, you're in.

[Joe Rogan]

It, you're in it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not scary.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Unless you're, you know, unless you're getting up. You know when you're getting up and you know, like, the end is near.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

There's like. Like, you want to see ultimate bravery. Khalil Roundtree in the last round with Pereira. Yeah, Pereira's putting it on him. That's ultimate bravery because he knows he's getting up, he knows time. There's nowhere out. His skill set is all in stand up. I mean, he can take gu ground, but at this point, that's not.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's not happening.

[Joe Rogan]

And his face is broken up and Pereira is doing that cobra thing where he gets cobra style.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Beautiful.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it was terrifying. But that's. That, that kind of bravery in front of the whole world. A lot of people, they're not sure if they have that.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Fair.

[Joe Rogan]

And so there's just that, the pressure of that in front of the whole.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

World, like, so maybe like they're in there. It's like, just do enough. Just do enough.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. They're scared, which shrinks you. And sometimes super duper talented people are the most scared. Scared because it kind of came too easy for them. There's a thing about super duper talented people that for some reason, like that gift comes with a curse. And that curse is that it came to you too easily. So you never really developed on the grind. Yeah. The real will and drive to, like, overcome just make these little tiny wins every day to pile onto a skill set. You're just a lightning bolt.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, you're a lightning bolt. And then you know when it's time to actually fight, you're like, you don't know if you've been tested.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't know who you are yet.

[Jamie]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think I get that a lot though, as in, like, people always like, he's just naturally talented. And only when I tell people that I used to get my ass handed to me.

[Joe Rogan]

But this is the thing that I've always said, Guys who grow up with brothers, especially older brothers who can kick their ass, they're ready to fight at all times because they're fighting in their house. They're ready to fight with guys who can beat them up their whole life.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Just that alone, like, sets you up for competition in a different way than someone. Like, I grew up with my sister. We didn't fight.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It's like nobody beat me up at all.

[Joe Rogan]

It's totally different.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because you. You're accustomed to being around hostile males who are dominating.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Was it older or younger, though?

[Joe Rogan]

Younger sister.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Okay.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Because my older sister was still beating out.

[Joe Rogan]

My sister never got into martial arts. I was the only one in the family got into it.

[Jamie]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Joe Rogan]

But if I did, if I grew up with a bunch of brothers, I'm sure we'd be beating the out of each other.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Weird enough we had to do it there one thing again, he'd always say, you can't. No, this is not for out here. This is for in there. If you got an issue, verbalize it. And if you still have an issue, we can sort it out in there. But yeah, I'd be annoyed at my brother. We'd have fights every now and again.

[Joe Rogan]

But nothing crazy, but it's just the accustomed. Being accustomed to just constant back and forth how about you?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like. It's in your house. It's in your house else. And I'm.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I was the wind up.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But I couldn't fight, so I had to have to do it some other way.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Be a little tougher because you're the smaller one.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Joe Rogan]

That's part of the thing. You know what's crazy about Jon Jones is his, his brother.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's got two older guys.

[Joe Rogan]

No. Well, I think one of them is younger. Isn't Chandler younger? But they're all beasts.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, of course.

[Joe Rogan]

So you're growing up in an NFL.

[Jamie]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So you're growing up in a house of beasts. Like, you better look, you better be ready for some host. You got to be ready for some aggression. There's like, there's a giant benefit of that, as in far as, as far as mindset, because the mindset you're accustomed to hostility. I mean, all his brothers are super freaks, just giant athletes. And so, you know, he's in this house with highly competitive males his whole life.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So you're totally accustomed to competition. Whereas with some people, competition is. Is like super overwhelming. And it's this. It's a test you don't want to take. You almost don't want to find out if you're good enough.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think school, even the school system has like, they slowly, over the years, they slowly taken out certain things that allows. Challenges people in a way that gives them that gift of being competitive. And especially in the uk, I don't, I'm not sure about in the States, but in the uk, we, they, they changed the rules. This was just after I would have left to not allowed to pick teams because, you know, because then people feel bad. I'm like, if you're. I'm not picking, you get better at. You get. This is real life.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, that's how it works in real life. And that, that bad feeling of getting picked last.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Lionel Richie was talking about that yesterday.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, serious?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. Lionel Richard, before he was in a band, it was always like he was the last one to get picked for this last one. He was talking about that openly. But look, that's what created Lionel Richard 100. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And again, I think we. Or again over there, I'm not sure here. But we model Molly color. Like, yes. The kids. And then they think that they do you. You surround them in cotton wool.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then the real life hits them and they're just like.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the opposite of yoel. Romero.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, yeah, exactly. You big.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the opposite. It's the opposite.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think I was talking to my. My brother as well earlier about. About how they say. Was it a comment? I forget the saying. It's like, tough men create good times. Good times and that. The whole cycle of that. And it's.

[Joe Rogan]

Very true, though.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

We're creating too much good times for people. And everybody's complaining about everything.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. When things are really good, the problem is whatever is bad, even mildly, becomes a giant thing. Then you're dealing with, like, microaggressions. People get crazy. They look for all of kinds. Kinds of grievances everywhere they. They go.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

When you're. When you are involved in, like, hard competition, you're not interested in any of that stuff at all, because it's just a giant distraction. The real thing is so difficult. And that's why I think, even though it's uncomfortable for kids, I think, like, wrestling in high school, any kind of competitive sports in high school. Martial arts, especially valuable for you.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

For ages, I've been saying this, like.

[Joe Rogan]

Just, it's okay to lose.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's okay to lose.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's actually good for you.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Very good for you. And you need to learn this kind of stuff. Like I said, as soon as you. As soon as they're out of your care, they have to experience that anyway. You can't. You're not. You're. And I used to do this even in. When I was teaching. We're teaching a jab or something. Teaching a jab. And we're doing slipping drills, and you're jabbing like this. I was like, you're not helping anybody by jabbing away from their face. Face. Because now this guy thinks he's amazing at slipping punches.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then we make him spar, and he's like, move your head. I'm doing what I usually do.

[Jamie]

Douche.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So I'm like, it's better that you hit him in the gym. So then when they go out into the real world or they go into a competition and whatever, they can actually. They're actually good at these drills that I'm giving you. Not. You're not helping by trying to be helpful.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You don't have to hit hard, but be accurate.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Get them used to it. And slowly speed up. Yeah. And. And, bro, I say this all the time, but it's exactly the same thing. People need to go through those actual trials and tribulations in certain areas so that then they can be ready for it later on.

[Joe Rogan]

100% and this idea of protecting them and every gets. Everybody gets a participation trophy.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so bad for. It's that feeling of bad from losing is beneficial. It's just like the feeling of being tired after you work out. That's how you get in shape.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's all good.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly. It's all good for you.

[Joe Rogan]

You're getting into a emotional shape.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But this is why I feel a lot of people are trying to take shortcuts for everything. Nobody really wants to do world.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Nobody wants to do the hard work. And, and I get it. If it's, if you're, if it's really excessive, you let you get, get to a certain point.

[Joe Rogan]

Point.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it's like, okay, you need to at least some help to get to a certain point to then work out. But you need to work.

[Joe Rogan]

You need to work and it's good for your brain. Your brain is. We have, for whatever reason, a whole series of human reward systems that are built into our brains from the times that we were all living in tribes thousands and thousands of years ago. And in this brain, it requires tasks. There's things it's like enforced in your brain that if you go out and you make arrowheads and you hunt the deer, you have food.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Your family survives, so you have tasks. So they're whittling the stick and you're. You're into it. And you better be into it.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because if you're not into it, you're not gonna eat.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So if you have a life where there's none of those things and you're sitting there in front of Netflix, of course you're depressed.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, of course you're depressed. Your body's not getting any of the stuff that it needs. Your mind isn't getting any of the tactics, masks that it needs.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Someone was telling me, like, it's the. Was it the reptilian mind set that looks for dangers or seeks dangers? Because we're not in a society that has those dangers. We look at danger. Our dangers are now this person looked at me funny. Or this person like.

[Joe Rogan]

Or you're even worse. Your phone.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Your phone. Yeah, it's even. It's even easier now. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

People are commenting on. Oh, the haters.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. To be fair, it's funny. The first time, this was still earlier, so. Oh, my comments were from YouTube. Initially I had an Instagram, but I didn't really use it like that. So after my first fight, I was super pumped. I'm like. Because like I said to you, I was so nervous after my first fight. And I always say. I always say, look, if you watch, all of my walkouts are being like, yeah, Vibes.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm just happy to be here. My first fight. How's that?

[Joe Rogan]

This.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I was dying inside Joe. Just like, what? In my head, literally, I was like, why did I decide to do this? I'm sorry, why am I here?

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

What? I was stressed. The whole walk was the most. The longest walk, and you'd never seen me so tense. And then the second I got in there and the bell rang, I was like, oh, yeah, same thing. Okay. Then I started to feel myself and, you know, the vibe, like, my energy started. Like, the MVP that we obviously come to know now came out. And that was. For me, that was just like. That was great. But in terms of. I just lost. Raoul, go ahead.

[Joe Rogan]

You lost what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, no worries. All the time. So. But that was interesting that then the second fight was the one that. It really overwhelmed you.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That was in the second fight in the. In the ufc. Overwhelmed on me.

[Joe Rogan]

But. So the first fight you ever had.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Was when you walked out was when I walked out.

[Joe Rogan]

The first fight you ever.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So that was me against. Is me versus. No, not. You see, me versus Dishman. And I just walked out. And seriously, I just had nothing but fear inside me.

[Joe Rogan]

And what kind of. What kind of a athlete was he? What did he do?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'm not sure. He's a kickboxer or something. Didn't seem as. First fight we had, I had did like, I think three pull outs before I got to that fight. Like, probably like the three weeks before, like, three different people. And at the. At that level, it happens all the time.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I had fights online, so my coach was like, can you. Are you able to take these down? I'm like, they've randomly filmed from so many random people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So, like, I wouldn't even know how to. Where to begin to find out to try and get them taken down. So I just. If anybody did research, they would see that I've got. I had like a 720 kick.

[Jamie]

So.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It made sense why people was pulling out.

[Joe Rogan]

For people that don't understand what that means, that's not a 363, 60 degree kick.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This is one of them. This was even the first time I did it.

[Joe Rogan]

Where is it?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it coming?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It'll be after this. Off a little bit further.

[Jamie]

Okay. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Okay. It's gonna be.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I said just before this. Just before this.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. That's such a crazy kid. That dude is sitting there going, how the did he hit me with that? He put his hands on his knees and everything. Like, how the. Did he pull that off?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So I understand why, like, people would look at that and be like, no, no. Yeah, but this guy stepped in and yeah, like, I just. I felt so bad. Negative going forward, walking in. But then once I was in there. But yeah, if you see the walk out. Oh, this one doesn't have it. But even. Even how I'm even here. I'm super tight. Sensed like, it was only until I started bouncing that it was even a thing.

[Joe Rogan]

What was the thing that was bothering you the most about doing this?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just. Just my decision. Like, why did I do. I don't know specifically.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, but once you got loose.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Once I. Yeah, once I got in there, I was like, oh, cool.

[Joe Rogan]

He had an obvious game.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He was trying to take me down.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He wasn't strong, so I was like, yeah, just push off. Like, felt I was feeling good. And I think after he felt my strength, he was like, okay. He kind of stood back.

[Joe Rogan]

That style. Such a problem. It's such a problem. I'm watching you move here and I'm thinking, like, what do you do? Oh, you can't do anything. You can't do anything because he's so far away from you and you like that when you try to close a distance on him and. Or when rather he tries to close the distance on you and he just can't. Can't. He just can't get close. Like, look at that. That's just nuts. That's a terrible puzzle to try to solve in real life.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow, look at that dive. That's pretty good, though. You got a hold of your ankle. I mean, that's. That shows you how much he wanted that takedown.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Until this happens.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, boy. The best part is just the standing there.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

Look at. This is amazing. That's amazing. That's the best not walk off KO Ever. Right? That's a standoff ko. Like, you realize that's crazy. You didn't even look at him. That's amazing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's funny when I. When people ask me, like, why did you stand there? Like, what if he came back? I was like, I landed the kick and I stood still. And I was thinking he might come back. So I go to spin the other way and land another kick. That was. That was the game. And then when he just. The referee stepped in, I was like, perfect.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, this looks good.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This Looks good.

[Joe Rogan]

It did look good. It looks. But that's the thing.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I went, okay, that's where I remember I was going. I went crazy viral for that. Everyone's like, who's this guy? And I was. I was like. Because of the relief that I had because of how tense I was, I was like, oh, my God. Like, that was for me, ticking the box that I can actually do this. I can actually make a career of this. Because, yeah, I wasn't sure.

[Jamie]

Sure.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And got home. What did you jump online? Like, I wanna. I want to see, like, I'm seeing a video. Like, crazy. Thousands of, like, comments and this. And I like, okay, yeah, maybe the next comment. Maybe the next one. Nope. Yeah, people don't like me.

[Joe Rogan]

They didn't like you for that video.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I felt like I had murdered someone's.

[Joe Rogan]

Child for that video.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, okay.

[Joe Rogan]

It just. Just shows you why you shouldn't read comments. No. 100. Because you're only getting the opinions of the dumbest alive if you just saw that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So let me tell you my thought when I saw that, because when that clip went viral, I went, finally.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, this is proof of what I've been saying for a long time. Like, there they have a different thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, the really elite point fighters have a totally different thing. And you can't even get close to hitting them. And we're seeing that.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That was the beginning of it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because even though Raymond had really good success in glory.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, he was amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he did a great success in glory, but it was different, Right. Because you're in a small ring, it's roped off, and he wasn't accustomed to leg kicks yet. He had that one spectacular jumping side spin back kick to the face.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, he nearly hit me. He nearly hit me with one of those. He was very famous for his double back kick.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then every now and again, he would hook it and it was just like, he's not. People out in the points game for it. Everyone's seen it, like. And I remember the. I think it's the first time I fought him. And I was young, but I had a reputation. He's the. He was the guy, like, over in America, I had a reputation. And, you know, we've. We've collided. I was. I don't care who this guy is, man. I'm just. I was feeling myself. I was killing everybody for ages. I remember faking, like, moving, moving, moving around, moving around. Faking, faking. Got him in the corner. I was like, oh, Perfect.

[Jamie]

Boom.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Blitz. Same thing. I was like, something's off. Boom. Did this. But both. Normally the first kick is light. Both stamps. I was like, shit. Not only was that fast, but that was powerful as well. And that just got into my head. This threw me. Threw me right off. I didn't want to commit to any of my strikes. And it just happened. It just from the first. From the first moment he let that.

[Joe Rogan]

Go, I was just like, yeah, he was very dangerous.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Dangerous.

[Joe Rogan]

Very dangerous.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Dangerous, dangerous.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was another guy that, like, you know, proved that point, that, yeah, this is a completely different skill set. And if you don't know how to deal with that, you're in real. They took the elite guys, took like, the Nikki Holtzkins and the Joseph, those guys to figures.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Nikki was beast.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, just chop the legs.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And Nikki was so technical.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Tight.

[Joe Rogan]

Hands up high.

[Jamie]

Chop.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He was a beast.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Chopping the legs, man, is a totally different ball game.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

As soon as the legs start getting chopped, you're like, it's hard.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You can't bounce anymore. But that's the thing. It's weird because I started to utilize that as a way to win fights. Weird. Not, obviously taking the leg kicks, but only giving you that option.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So everyone's like, yeah, but that's an awkward style. I was like, yeah, but when I stand in front of you like that, you don't think to do a punch, because I feel way too far away. So you're not doing a punch. You're not. The only thing you have is what's in front of you is a kick. So it's like, I got used to timing kicks as you're. As you're kicking. Collision. Going in or just. Just pulling. Just off and then putting my foot in slightly deeper. And then just put it off and put my foot in slightly deeper. Now I know I can pull this trigger when I'm ready already. And you're. You're getting more and more demoralized because you're not landing. You're throwing a kick. He's swinging around like, oh.

[Joe Rogan]

And there's only one thing available.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And there's only one thing available.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So I have to keep pressing that same button.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And the idea of you shooting on it feels far.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Too far.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Feels very far.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's the Hamzat thing. It's like Hamzat shoots from the middle of the Octagon. That. That guy's got a crazy shot. That shot he hit Whitaker with and the one he went with. Who is it? Oh, the leech. When he picked up the leech, he picked him up, carried him over the data.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's like, I kill everybody. Like, whoa, this is nuts. He was another guy. They're like, how the. Are you making 170?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's a big. He's a big.

[Joe Rogan]

When I first met him, I was like, what are you talking about, 170?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Big boy.

[Joe Rogan]

I hate the weight cutting. I hate it. I hate it with a passion. I hate it more than anything in the sport. I think it should be eliminated, but it's too late. Yeah, I don't think. I think people should get down to a healthy weight and fight the healthiest weight, whatever the hell that is.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Do you think there would be a way to combat that? Because obviously in boxing, they got the. You have to weigh in multiple times now.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, some fighters make you do that. Like Gervonta Davis. He made Ryan Garcia do that. He wanted to make sure that Ryan Garcia didn't rehydrate.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Mayweather did that to Canelo, too.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just a G move.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's very small us. When you're near the A side, you're the smaller.

[Joe Rogan]

You're the. The A side. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I'll fight you, but you gotta wait 43 when you get in that ring.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Guys will take that fight for that, you know, big paycheck. But it's not a good move. Yeah, but I just think that it's legalized cheating. I just think that it's cheating. You're not like, if you're 155 pound champion, but you weigh 190 pounds. That's kind of crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I agree. And if I didn't have to wait. Weight cut. Because if you don't join in, you're fighting monsters.

[Joe Rogan]

That's true. But they would have to fight monsters, too. Everybody would have to fight a person that weighs what they actually weigh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No, I. I agree with that, but I'm just saying, with the fact that people are weight cutting.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

When I got to this arena, I'd prefer to just report what I weighed at.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But because everyone's weight cut and I.

[Joe Rogan]

Was like, you have to.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You have to.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You have to do it because you look like when you were fighting at 170. For people that understand I'm short, that's £30 less than me.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. That's crazy. Like, that's just a giant advantage that you can't give up. And when you're doing that across every Single weight class and every single world championship. The last guy that I know that didn't cut weight was Frankie Edgar when he was 155 pound champ. When Frankie Edgar was a 155 pound champ, he weighed 155 and he moved like a ghost. He was all over the place. He was fighting fast as he had great endurance. His, his recovery was incredible because he could take a great shot because he wasn't dehydrated like everybody else was.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's the thing. I actually feel great at middleweight.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, you definitely have the size for it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I, I'm, I'm naturally that way. But it's weird though because people's body types, because they are cutting, they're still slightly stocky, not necessarily as frame wise as big as me, but they're just slightly stockier. And obviously as you say, the guys that want to come in and just go, go.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they just want to clinch and get you down. It's a giant advantage.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's an advantage if they're going to be that much heavier than me as well. Moving people like even when in my last fight, when I got taken down in, in that, in that last round, trying to, against Cannonier trying to move him, I was just like, Jesus, this caner is huge. He's a big, he's a big boy.

[Joe Rogan]

He's one of the only guys that's got KOs in three different weight classes from heavyweight, heavyweight, light heavyweight and middleweight. Yeah, Beast, he's huge for 185, but it's another perfect example. And I think, look, there's something to be said for the ritual of doing it. For a lot of fighters it means a lot and you could choose to cut less so that you're more healthy the day of the fight, but everyone kind of concedes that you have to cut something.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I just don't think that's smart. 24 hours before a fight in a cage. Why would you deplete your body purposely? Because it's basically like getting drunk. Yeah, it really is. Like you're dehydrated out of your body.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Seeing people just look, look a mess.

[Joe Rogan]

And you only have 3, 5, 40 hours to rehydrate between the weigh ins and the time you're actually gonna fight. If you're lucky of 40 hours. Yeah, that's not enough time.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I, I can do it. I don't care to do it. I can do it. I just, I agree with you and I just, it would.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

If everybody, if everybody was like, okay, let's all just do it our way. Weights or.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, imagine if people did dehydrate and rehydrated and we started calling it cheating. You know what I mean? I mean, it would be if people got caught and they looked at it the same way people look at people getting caught with steroids.

[Jamie]

Fair, fair, fair.

[Joe Rogan]

Because this, the reality is right now you can't do it because of the weight class limitations. There's too many weight classes where, like where you're at, so 85 to 205. That's nuts. That's £20.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's so.

[Joe Rogan]

And for maybe people who've never grappled, they don't know what that means. Or never been punched, they don't know what that means. But that's a giant amount of horsepower. Gravity on top of you. And so if you're, if you've got weight classes at a reasonable space, like, I feel like 10 pounds is good. I feel like every 10 pounds you get 45, 55, 65, 75. And if you're in between, you, you either add muscle or you lose weight.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You stop lifting as much weights and do more cardio, you'll get down to that, right?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's what you are, what you actually are. And if we did that, there would have to be some sort of a hydration thing where they just show up and weigh you.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, you know, like people show up and drug test, you know, like drug free sport. They'll just knock on your door. Hey, Venom, what's up?

[Jamie]

Yeah, can you pee in this?

[Joe Rogan]

Let's, let's about talk. Talk.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, that, that makes sense to me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, just show up. What do you weigh? Get on the scale.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you get on 190. Yeah, bro, you're a bantam weight. This is crazy because there's dudes that are out there doing that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, no. 100%.

[Joe Rogan]

We always talk about glace and T bow. When glace and t bow was 155 pounders, he looked like a bodybuilder. He looked like he weighed 200 pounds when he got into the cage. It was nuts.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

The rehydration. I've seen people cut ridiculous amounts and then. Yeah, like I said, the way they rehearsed.

[Jamie]

Hydrate.

[Joe Rogan]

It's terrible, but it's also a lie. You're not 155 pounds. You're 200 pounds.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what you actually weigh. And I understand why you do it. I understand why everybody does it, but there's got to Be a better way.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

The worst I ever saw was Travis Luder when he fought Anderson Silva.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't remember that one.

[Joe Rogan]

He lost, but he had Anderson down. Travis Luder was an elite black belt.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was in the Ultimate Fighter.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wins the Ultimate Fighter. I mean, dominates. Everybody dominates people on the ground. Everybody I talked to trained with him. Like guys on a whole nother level as far as jiu jitsu.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And the day of the weigh in, he can't make the weight, man. And he's. He's so dehydrated that his lips are cracked and he's not walking to the scale. He's shuffling. He's just. And I'm watching him and he missed the first time. And then this is like one of the second or third time that he tried to make weight and they eventually didn't make weight. So even if he beat Anderson, he wouldn't have won the title. But, bro, he had him down and he was on top of him in the beginning of the round. And for anybody that's ever rolled with Travis, if he was healthy and he has you down on the ground, like that's. You're in. You're still. Yeah, that guy's good. Yeah, he was really good, but it was just the weight was way too much. He was just drained.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Then 24 hours later, he's supposed to fight.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

One of the greatest fighters of all time.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it depletes your. Your liquid around your. Your brain as well. So taking a shot. So you're not going to take it as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. Tackling.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I agree.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You're tired.

[Joe Rogan]

Your endurance sucks. Everything's all up. Yeah, everything's all up.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But that's why I get down very close to my weight because I On fight week, I'm very low.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, what do you weigh if you're fighting 185? What are you wearing?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Fight week 185 is easier, though. So 190.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's great.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like, I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

What about 170? When you're at 170?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I get down to probably about, about 182. 183.

[Joe Rogan]

Not that bad.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Not that bad. And then cut. And then cut down from there.

[Joe Rogan]

That's not that bad.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I don't, I don't. Again, I don't like to over stress myself.

[Joe Rogan]

Pereira weighed in at 185 and fought it 220.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Massive.

[Joe Rogan]

Fought at 220.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Weighed in at 85, fought at 220.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like you said. That's. That's a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

That's insane.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

That's insane.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so much work. Wait, and what does that do to you?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I've seen people. I can't even remember what fires is in Bellator. And his. He was banging the sauna to get out and his coach was holding the door.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh God.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You need five more minutes. When a guy is kicking the door, like bump. He's like, yes. I'm never doing that. I don't ever want to feel like that.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen people passing out and stuff.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Brian Ortega was just in an interview talking about that.

[Jamie]

That.

[Joe Rogan]

So he essentially like, almost like. How did he describe it? It was like 30 minutes where he was like in real trouble. Oh, for his last weight cut.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He's like. It's just. He just got really wrecked. People blacked out before.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's the lady that fell off the stage. I fell off the scales, wasn't it? She. She stepped back off the scales and then just her legs just went.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I don't remember. 30 minute coma.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, she Sugar.

[Joe Rogan]

Due to his weight cut for Al Jermaine Sterling. Holy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But he missed. He keeps.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

This is too much for. I don't know why. Why doesn't he just go up?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's the problem is the guys at 55 are jacked. I think he just, he dialed in his diet though. He looks a lot thinner now.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like he showed. Pull up some of those photos he's got on his Instagram. He's been taking photos lately. Like he just. He realized like he can never do that again. He's lost a lot of body.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, that's good.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So I think sometimes that is. Is the, the discipline of it as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Look at.

[Jamie]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Look at him now.

[Jamie]

Way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Way leaner. Big difference.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's where he had that in ages.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's where he needs to be 100%, you know, likes to live that good life.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Same. Even when you said about like having like random weight checks. Make me consider certain burgers sometimes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But they would have to give you.

[Joe Rogan]

An out of shape claws.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, like give you like 10, 15 pounds in between fights.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But then once you start training, they should be able to randomly show up during those six weeks ago. All right, Michael, get on the scale.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

174. Okay, good.

[Jamie]

Good to go.

[Joe Rogan]

Good to go. We're inside of six pounds. Because what you actually cut, what you're saying at 85 is perfect in my opinion.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I don't, I don't go. I don't like to be.

[Joe Rogan]

Five pounds is just a good weight sauna session. Yeah, it's not that much. You're not losing a ton of weight. You're not killing yourself. Yeah, yeah, maybe you ride the bike for half hour. Like what do you do?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I literally do a 30 minute jog. It's like really low with a sauna suit on. Straight away, I take that off, go straight into the sauna. 15 minutes, then wrap. 15 minutes and wrap and I'm done.

[Joe Rogan]

See, that's perfect. Yeah, that's actually probably therapeutic.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not, it's not, it's not bad for you at all. That's probably actually very good for you because you're giving your body all this recovery from the sauna and you're getting a nice little cardiovascular workout, but nothing crazy. You're giving yourself a lot of heat shock proteins. You're not killing yourself. Yeah, but there's guys, man, I've seen them and they look like, okay, here's the worst one. The worst one. Other than. Other than Travis. Travis was the worst because I watched him shuffle backstage. But the visuals is TJ Dilshaw when he went down to flyweight. He fought Henry Cejudo at flyweight and he looked like a dead man. He looked.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yes, I remember this.

[Joe Rogan]

He looked like a hostage that had just gotten released and had.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, just fed for ages.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, he was looked.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Cuz he gets quite jacked as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he up. Yeah, he up. Look at, look at what he looked like on the left. That's crazy. That picture.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's quite big there.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? But that one, that picture, that picture is crazy. That's a prisoner of war. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's not a guy. Look at what he looks like. Yeah, well, now he's tank. Now he's a tank. That's a. The one on the right is not fair because that's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, that's, that's. Yeah, he's finished now, but Yeah, a buck 65.

[Joe Rogan]

Now he's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Jeez, he's massive.

[Joe Rogan]

But he was. Here's another guy that doesn't get the credit that he deserves when he fought Hen and Barral.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I love this style.

[Joe Rogan]

Pure flow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, it's pure flow, but it's the, it's the level changes of the up and you don't Know where he's attacking. It's not. It's not linear. It's not just, I'm going here or I'm going here.

[Joe Rogan]

Switching stances constantly.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I used to love watching his style.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you ever talked to Ludwig?

[Jamie]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, you should meet. Meet Dwayne, bang Ludwig.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

And talk to him, because Dwayne is the one who coached him in that style.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Dwayne, who was an elite kickboxer himself and fought in the UFC at one point in time, had the fastest ever knockout in the UFC at a. I think it was a five or six second knockout in the ufc. He was one of the fastest ever. Just step back, one right hand plan. But Dwayne was a beast, but maybe even better than he is as a fighter. He is as a coach, and he doesn't have that style. This is what's crazy. He devised that style. So this is Dwayne. Watch this. There it is.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Nice.

[Joe Rogan]

So they call it six seconds. I don't even think it was six. I don't even think it was six. But the point is, Dwayne's style, like, he learned from Boss Rutin and, you know, it's like Dutch kickboxing style. But he realized, like, Dwayne is like this consummate studier of fighting, and he realized that the best way to fight is to overwhelm them with possibilities and options, but have a whole system of how to do that. So his system is all about switching stances and combinations while you're switching and turning and moving and. But he's got it mapped out.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Nice, nice, nice.

[Joe Rogan]

The dude came over to my place with like a binder, like this thick binder of techniques, and he's full on egghead with this. And TJ and him just locked up. And the fruits of that labor was the Hen and Barao fight. Go to that fight, Jamie. So. Because I feel like this was one of the finest championship performances at the time, I thought it was the best I had ever seen of a guy who was an underdog going into a fight. Hen and Barao at that time, a lot of people thought was the pound for pound best. It was him and Jose Aldo. They were talking about those two guys together, and TJ just went in there and worked them.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, it was like a sparring match. He went in there super loose and just moving around and started cracking them.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It's a fun watched all.

[Joe Rogan]

Just get me in there.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So this is like Ken and Baral was the boogeyman. Everybody was Scared of this dude. He was so fun.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Look how he starts, look how he starts.

[Joe Rogan]

Stepping with an uppercut. Just movement, constant movement, overwhelming you. And look, always on the tips of his toes, moving around. He didn't back up at all and never gave Hen and Baral the chance to get some momentum going. And at the end when he eventually stopped him, I mean, was just a ruthless combination when he took him out of there. But like, if you knew how difficult it is to be. Look at that right hand right off the bat in the first round. At this point, Hannibal's like, oh no, I'm in problems. Yeah. Because nobody had thought that TJ was going to be capable of doing this. Tj, you know, was a really good up and cominging fighter, a really good contender, but this was his finest performance and it was in a world championship fight against a guy that everybody thought was, was the man. TJ just beat that ass. And if you go like further, see if you can go to the actual stoppage. Jamie, it's like further in the fight when he like at this point in time, TJ's just styling on him, just standing right in front of him and popping job, not getting hit, staying right in range, dropping down, head movement. Oh, look at that head kick. Oh my goodness.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Beautiful.

[Jamie]

Look at this.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean it's, and it's artistic. It's fucking beautiful, man.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I love it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a beautiful stoppage. Like one of the best championship winning performances in the history of the sport.

[Jamie]

Yeah, easy.

[Joe Rogan]

In the history of the sport.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[Joe Rogan]

Woo. But that dude unfortunately had two bum shoulders.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, is that what it was?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, forever. He had, even when he won the title, his shoulders were fucked. He had torn super spinatuses in both of his shoulders.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I've done one on this side.

[Joe Rogan]

It got to the point where he never got it fixed. So it got to the point where they're just popping out. So by the time he fought Al Jermaine Sterling, just like he told the, the, the referee in the locker room, my shoulder's going to go out of socket.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's crazy to, to go in there knowing that that's.

[Joe Rogan]

So now he's, he had to retire and he had multiple operations on his shoulder and he can't even reach over his head. He gets his arm that far, like that's how fucked he is.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Three months ago.

[Joe Rogan]

He's got to get another one.

[Jamie]

Oh.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh yeah, you can see. Geez.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh my God. Get another soldiering. They're going to cut off the head of my humerus and turn the head into a plastic plunger.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That sounds like. Sounds like a bit too much. I hate doing this, like, surgery for anything.

[Joe Rogan]

He has the worst shoulder injuries I've ever seen. I know there's been a lot like, you're from before. It was from wrestling. I think it's just from having torn shoulders and just trying to rehab them and not getting them surgically fixed. Like, if you. You can have some things loose in there and strengthen everything else up and kind of be functional, but not if you're going to be a world championship fighter. And the problem with a lot of those things is once it tears and pulls back, you can't get it back in place.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So then you have really complicated surgeries where they have to take a piece of your hamstring and stick it up there or some other part of your body and reconstruct what was supposed to be there. And then you have to slowly build range of motion and do it. Like he got to the point where he was too tough.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

For the injuries that he had where he should have probably got him fixed immediately and maybe he could have prolonged.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I feel like it just sounds like he just. Just. He went back in. In terms of getting back into training a bit too quickly. So I feel like the rehab can work. I know you. Obviously there's certain things you're going to need surgery for, but there's a lot of my stuff I've managed to bring it back. And even I don't think he had.

[Joe Rogan]

Surgery until after he was done fighting.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, so he even had surgery.

[Joe Rogan]

No, he know he had surgery on one of his knees because he blew his knee out in the Sanhagen fight. Or I should say Sanhagen. After talking with Sandhagen about what happens in that 50. 50% position. Sanhagen blew his knee out.

[Jamie]

Okay. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

So he. He put him in a position where if TJ didn't give in. Yeah, he was going to get his knee up. And he got. He chose to get his knee up, but that was Corey putting him in that position. So he had to get an ACL reconstruction. So that. But I don't think he got the shoulder surgeries until after he was done fighting. He might have gotten one and then tried to fight again. Yeah, but the problem is, like, his shoulders were. Man, they were really.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But that doesn't look fixed. Well, for you to be he having to.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't look fixed, but I think that's all they could do with it. I Think it was that bad? I think it was that bad. I'm looking an article from right after that fight. It says his third shoulder surgery since 2019. Okay, so that's when he started getting them. And when was that fight? When was the last fight that he had? That was like 2023. The Aljo fight, I think is 22.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

UFC 280, is it 2022. That's when this article. Okay, so he had those shoulder surgeries. Surgeries. And then I know he's had a ton since. And since, you know, like, you look on his Instagram page, like every few months, it's him in a sling.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Well, yeah, I know guys that are like, surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery. And they. It never seems to. I've never. Unless I forced to. I don't ever really go down a surgery route. I always try and figure out a different way. Like, I've had, weird enough, it was both my shoulders, but one was superspinatus, the other one was rotator cuff and kind of like some lat injury as well, but just slowly but to the point where I couldn't do a push up. When in my last couple of. Is it Bellator fights? Yeah, my last few Bellator fights, I couldn't do a push up. I could still hit in certain, so certain angles. I was fine, but I had no strength in that direction.

[Joe Rogan]

While you were fighting?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

While I was fighting?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Oh, no.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So literally trying to get that my arms would just start shaking. I couldn't.

[Joe Rogan]

Why didn't you. You do something about that?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I was doing. I was doing, like, rehab. I was like, as long as I can hit you, I'm fine. Like.

[Joe Rogan]

That'S so crazy going into a fight with that kind of a major handicap.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I. I've had worse.

[Joe Rogan]

But what's the worst?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't, I don't say as an excuse, so. But the. The day before my Ian Gary fight, I couldn't stand on my left foot.

[Joe Rogan]

Why not?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I, I, up till today, I don't understand it. I had the, the ufcpi working everything. They did shock therapy, they did acupuncture, they were doing everything. And I literally, I had it. I had a. If you see the fight, I literally had ankle supports on. And they said, you're allowed the ankle supports. You can't really have it taped. But I had it taped under the ankle support. But obviously if I, I couldn't just do one ankle to do both of them, so I have to do both of them. And yeah, just the day before the fight, I'm not sure if I did anything when I was cutting weight, like twinged it or something, but I don't remember anything distinct happening. But couldn't walk on my foot.

[Joe Rogan]

So it was your ankle you twisted?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

It was my ankle or something. And they were working on. Literally I was trying. I was in.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't have a single instance where it went.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't remember anything.

[Joe Rogan]

All of a sudden it just hurt going.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You started. It hurt the night before. It hurt the night before. So on the weigh in, it hurt. And I was walking around and I was like, it's hurt, but it didn't feel like anything drastic. And overnight it just got worse and worse and worse and worse.

[Joe Rogan]

Probably exaggerated by the weight cut, right?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Maybe, yeah. And then. And literally the next day in the morning, we had to go to the PI. I was. My coach, like, bro, if we. You can't bounce here now I'm gonna have to pull you fat. There's no way I can get pulled from this fight. It's not happening. I was like, it's not happening.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I went out there, he's like bouncing off, trying to adjust myself and. And bounce. And he had it. They. They did the tape that it was. He was gonna use for the fight. And he said he'll come in and do it again just before the fight. And yeah, it was. I was just like adjusted adjusting. And I obviously I had a.

[Joe Rogan]

Still had a great performance.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I had to. I had my. So my guy, my videographer for Kishan, he filmed. He was. We're doing a documentary, so he's filmed all of it as well. I was kind of like, I'll wait till it comes out as normal, but not again. Not even to say as an excuse because I was able to. Adrenaline just. I'm. I'm in it now and fight. But there were certain things I was being cautious of and not not wanting to do. But yeah, it was just irritating. But I've had. That's. That's probably the worst in terms of how close. Close to the fight it was because it's the day before. But I've had injuries in the build up and I'm like, if as long as I can throw a punch and throw a kick, I'm just make it happen. He just.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the thing that people don't understand when they watch fights. Like sometimes. Guys, this is one of the things about the rematch this weekend. Uncle I have versus Pereira is that Pereira supposedly had a up left hand and rotavirus.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Before the Last fight, I believe it. He looked off.

[Joe Rogan]

He looked off.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He definitely didn't look himself, but.

[Joe Rogan]

But Uncle, I have looked really good.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

100%.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I don't know. I don't want to take anything away.

[Joe Rogan]

From when someone looks off. I'm always like, it's like, Roy Jones.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like people go, roy Jones didn't fight anybody. No, no, no. Roy Jones fought everybody, but he made him look like there were nobody because they were fighting Roy Jones.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like. So is that what's going on? Like, is Ankala of that good? And so we don't know. We got to see him fight again.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I'd only say no, just because towards the fifth round, it looked like Per could do something. Some stuff like. It's like, okay, you're actually now landing that, that calf kick a bit more now you're actually starting to do. It's like, why didn't you start like that?

[Joe Rogan]

He didn't have the gas.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So if you've got rotavirus, your gas is very low and you probably. Your energy level feels very.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So he's trying to be. He's conserved, he's conserving energy and so. So this is what makes this one, this fight so much more interesting because hopefully he's had the camp. He is ankle. I've hopefully comes in looking exactly the same way he did that last fight.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Or better.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Or better.

[Joe Rogan]

He's going to be better because he's going to be the champion. When you. I think there's a thing that happens and Daniel Cormier has expressed this too, like a 30 bump. When you become the champion, you just got. You got 30. You know, like when you were talking about when you won that tournament.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, yeah, I think there's that.

[Joe Rogan]

When you get the championship, hopefully you're going to get to experience.

[Jamie]

Yes, yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You'll get to experience that bump.

[Joe Rogan]

But this is, you know, I feel like that's just. We're going to have to see. And it's a very intriguing one because Pereira, if he heard his left hand. That's the doom punch.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

That left hook is.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's massive.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's the one. That's the one. If you look at his highlight reel, there's so many left.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

When he catches people with that. Even when he grazed like Jamal Hill. Yeah, it was a. I, I still don't get it now. He grazed him.

[Joe Rogan]

He's got a hell of a punch on him, man.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

The Yuri Prohaska one. At the end of the first round, Yuri Yeah. Yo, and then he head kicks him in the beginning of the second.

[Jamie]

Second.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he's got ferocious power.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Fast. Yeah, I think it was fast as well.

[Joe Rogan]

Boy, I hope he's healthy. But I heard, I heard he's super heavy coming into this week.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh, is it?

[Joe Rogan]

I heard he's like 230 going into this week. Yeah, for, for him, I guess he's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Got a lot to cut.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, some guys can do it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know what the.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Well, I guess if he was able to get to middleweight. Yeah, well, yeah, but also sometimes it makes you, you lazier as well, like oh, I can do that, I need this. And then. Yeah, and then you get close to the time, like a bit of work now.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he has talked about moving up, but again yeah, and so is Uncle Lyle.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Oh yeah, actually he has, yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Uncle I have just said that recently that he wants to defend the title a couple of times then move up to heavyweight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think it's a bit too small.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe but if you put size on and he gives himself enough time, he's got the skill set and Aspinall is going to need some challenge.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But then does. Yeah, fair.

[Joe Rogan]

Unless Cyril gone beats him.

[Jamie]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But then does he need, you know, does it. I always say that the time that Jon Jones took off to get too heavyweight, does he need that kind of time? Because it takes a while to put on size like that naturally takes ages.

[Joe Rogan]

Not when you're over in Russia there.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Enough said.

[Joe Rogan]

Real difficult drug testing guys on a planet plane. If they do, everybody knows when they're landing. Good luck going into the bathroom while those guys pee.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You will accept glass of urine. I will hand it to Vitali, he handles as do you. This is clean urine. I'm not accusing him of doing that, but I know, you know, listen, I mean that was always like the joke about guys going over to Thailand. Like why are they going over the Thailand? It was good training and also really hard to get those USADA guys on a flight.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Ah yeah, A lot of speculation to that kind of stuff. Like I just don't, I just don't care enough because again it's like, like I said, I don't really have like a schedule for anything. Even when I'm. Even the good stuff like the things you're supposed to be doing, I'm just like eh, I'll just, I'll do it.

[Joe Rogan]

So you're not like a supplement guy at all?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I, I don't take protein shakes at all. Nothing, Nothing, nothing.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

None of that.

[Jamie]

None of that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Never, never been into it. Multivitamins, vitamins.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But again, I just forget to take them seriously. ADHD mind. I'm just like, you should have someone.

[Joe Rogan]

Who makes like a little packet for you.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So I'm gonna get my wife to do it soon because she's very into that. She's very into her fitness and stuff. She's a Pilates instructor. She's got her own Pilates app and stuff. And she's. She smartly. Well, I don't even know if she even intended it that way, but she kind of blew up over Covid because she set up her app at that time and now everyone's at home.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, perfect.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I mean, it's just perfect timing. And she just blew up. Her apps are called Cloud9 Collective and she does Pilates for women. But have you ever done Pilates yourself?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, I have, bro.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I. I did a video with her and she got her to train some mma and then she's like, okay, you come and do this for lies. She killed me.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a lot more difficult than I thought.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So much. But I didn't.

[Joe Rogan]

Weird muscles.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It inside of your leg.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But that's what's actually helped with a lot of my. The rehab side because it's. It's those muscles that we. We bypass. We go to the big muscles. Yeah. We want to work these muscles and it's all those little ones that are not getting worked and those are the ones that injured.

[Joe Rogan]

Stabilizers.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Stabilizers.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I didn't know that. That it was a man. I forget his first name, but called something Pilates, who started it for men in war to help recover guys in war to get them back out to war. But it's become such a female led sport.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that goes to speak about what I was talking about with the Russians and being technical. You know who was really into Pilates? Kovalev. Kovalev was the light heavyweight champion. The Crusher was fucking everybody up. He was big in the bigger. He was doing Pilates all the time. And I was like, wait a minute, what that guy?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

The strength from. You can get from anywhere. Because like I said, those smaller muscles that help facilitate the bigger muscles, like, yeah, it's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the same people that like look down on yoga, like, bitch, go to a 90 minute hot yoga class.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Okay, I did that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Hard.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go to a yoga. A hot yoga. You know, I was more thinking, just, it's nice to kind of get the sweat going and stuff. I remember the lady, she's like, oh, yeah, go to. If you go to that side of the room, it's a bit. It's quite hot. So, you know, if you're new to it, just go to this side of the room. And I was like, this woman, whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

Man, get all that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Let me go to that hot side. And she's like, oh, you know, if you feel, if you ever feel faint at all, you don't have to continue. You can kind of just sit down. I'm just like, what's she talking about? It's not that hot in here.

[Joe Rogan]

Google me, lady, bro.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I think like three moves later, I slowly, like, just like move the mat. Like, I didn't want to go too far. I didn't want to, but I moved from the hot side of the room to like the middle ish. Closer to that side. And then there was one move. I was just stretching and like, I literally just got lightheaded. I was like, she's. This is real. It's real, it's real.

[Joe Rogan]

You see all those little old ladies in there and you think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's difficult.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But my. So my wife is strong as hell and I'm just like, yes, it has to be fine from that. Like she. And then when I do this, I did a session with her this morning because she does some great sessions. Like when I do sessions with her, like she, she kills it. And she's. I have to say she's smart in his. In how she's done it as well. Because actually something I didn't know because she's on her app. She's done a cycle sinking specifically for women. I didn't realize that women have a. Obviously I knew women 28 day cycle and men have a 20, 24 day cycle, 24 hours, and they have 28 days. So there's specific times that they should be training us harder than they shouldn't be training or they should be doing this and should be doing that based on biometrics, based on just them as time of the cycle, time of the cycle, of the month. But again, in my head I'm like, there's girls that are training our class and they have to train and do everything that we do. But we, we don't, don't we forget that we're just doing it based on that. Men can kind of just keep going.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, women should think about that when they're scheduling fights.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

100. That should be a thing. And as I said, she did it for plies. When she and I looked into it, and I was like, oh, there's actually. This is like, even down to ice baths. Great for you. Not for women, though, really. Not all the time, but if you look into it. So there's specific times, it's okay for them, but they shouldn't put their body under that kind of stress in the same way that we can.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So there's loads of. When I started looking at certain. There's loads of things that we forget that a lot of times it's done from a male point of view.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Forgetting that we're just different.

[Joe Rogan]

I never would have thought about that in terms of their menstrual cycle and fighting.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

But of course, of course, of course.

[Joe Rogan]

Of course, of course.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So, yeah, she's put it on so individuals can actually be like her. It was scheduled and say, look, you're good. Specifically for you. You are good to train intensely today. Or. No, you need a very relaxed session. And these videos. Actually got hundreds of videos on her thing that will come up and be like, this is for you. This was for you. This was for you. But again, it just made me think about the women in mma, like you said. Yeah, it's the same thing. Scheduling, even down to. For them, weight cutting, you know, at a certain time, going through the loot of your phase, they holding weight.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like, it's just. It's just different.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

We don't have any of those issues. Issues to worry about, but we get them to do the same structure as we would do.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a very good point.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You know, I mean, that it's. It. They. They should be more information about that, even for the female fighters.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they should actually be like, their coaches should be setting fights entirely based on. I wonder, like, how many fights they would have won that they.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

They could go.

[Joe Rogan]

Couldn't really train. Right.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because they're cramping up.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Which is different. Different.

[Joe Rogan]

When you. I've seen some videos of you. You do a lot of plyometric stuff as well.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And is that something you've always done?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Well, it kind of comes with just. This is why I feel like I can bounce on my cars for ages just because of that constant. And it seems to be a thing now. I didn't really understand it well enough. It was just kind of how I trained. And now.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you train like that from the beginning?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, just because of the points. Fighting style is. It's a lot of that shifting.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right. But did you, but back then when you were doing that, were you just doing the martial arts training or were.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You doing martial arts training?

[Joe Rogan]

Plyometrics.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

With plyometrics. The reason why we did plyometrics more so is because we were also doing a lot of our caters. We did Marshall gymnastics. So the forms, ah. So I had to learn how to do these crazy kicks and stuff in which I would. Then this is why I would try 720s. Not because like, like I just randomly decided to, to just throw it out today. It's cuz we were drilling them just for Cata though. And I was like, well if I can do it for Cat, then I could surely I can find the time to throw it when I'm fighting and I would be like brave enough to try and attempt these things in, in the points fighting world. And yeah, that's that there's a couple kicks I keep telling people there's a couple kicks that even for me I haven't even shown you what I can actually do yet. Like there's a couple kicks that I know know I can land and it's you usually it's easier on people that are well trained. So usually the better fighter is actually easier to hit them just because they are very traditional, they're very well trained. They have patterns that I can pick up on them like ah, you're gonna step this way and you're gonna do that. And I always tell people I call it attaching strings. The first minute of the fight. Not too much happens for me me because I'm faking this, that, that. But every time I'm faking something, you twitch. I'm like, ah, this means. Yeah, you twitch. This means this, this. And I just attaching strings to you. So now I'm moving you. You just became Pinocchio. But that, and that's important. This is why like you said all those fakes. But those fakes mean something.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

You know, I mean I want, I'm getting, I'm like I said, I'm getting that information from you. Okay. Okay. Yeah, he wants that. If I do this, he wants that. Okay, I see it. Okay, perfect. Now I got it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's what's so important for a casual fan to understand.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That there's a whole game taking place. That if you could play it, you would understand what he's doing.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're just seeing movement, random movement. You're like, hit him.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, hit him.

[Joe Rogan]

Why don't you hit him? Meanwhile, if you knew you'd Be watching something beautiful.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

You're watching, you know, a dance.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Snake charming.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That is.

[Jamie]

That's it.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just part of the identity, man. It's part of the identity. Well, I try to tell people, though, but, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you know when you're fighting again? Have they given you any kind of an idea?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like I said, I pushed out information. I keep chasing up to try and find out, and I haven't really heard too much back.

[Joe Rogan]

They're announcing some fights now.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

That's what I'm saying. It feels like things are slowly starting to happen. Still waiting.

[Joe Rogan]

So Protest is going to fight leon Edwards.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So 170, which is what you're looking at the most, right?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, I want to. I want to get back. I know I'm big now, but you.

[Jamie]

Can make it, though.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I can make it. I can make it. I want to get back down.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I want to get back down to 170. Just because, like I said, I. I feel like I think JDM's a great. An amazing fighter. I just film. Stylistically, I can beat that, but I can beat him.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's a very good style for stand up for you. Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, he's very complete.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Very complete.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he's very, very.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, very complete. I really like his style. And very smart. You can tell he's very smart. Smart, like as in specific to the opponent. He's like, okay, yeah, but like I said, that's one of the advantages. It's like, you're not gonna have. It's gonna be very difficult for you, even as smart as you are, to figure that out.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's why it's exciting for you with any stand up fighter. As soon as you're fighting a guy who likes to stand up, it's like, are you sure?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you sure you like to stand up?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I tell people. I tell people this all the time.

[Joe Rogan]

New thing that you've never experienced before.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I make these guys wrestlers, man. I make all these stand up guys wrestlers, and they yours. Everyone's all gonna strike with you.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, listen, brother, I can't wait to see you in there again. I'm a Giant fan. I'm so happy you're at the UFC now and I know you do a lot of stuff online, so tell people how to find you.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And yeah, so again, it's all the social media, Michael Venom page, everything. Instagram, you know, I don't really do Twitter as much or X. Sorry. My Facebook, YouTube. I'm doing a lot of stuff itm actually I'm doing a film company. I always try to set myself up for the next stage. My creative mind won't stop even when I make movies. I'm making movies I've already made. I've already made two short movies.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And again the same.

[Joe Rogan]

Congratulations.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

That's awesome.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Thank you. Thank you. And I want to get acting as well.

[Joe Rogan]

What are they about?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

So the first one was actually about an athlete's mindset. One thing that I find with films, I think people are lazy watchers nowadays. They find just exploding, explosion, explosion, action, action, action and crap storyline. But I want stories telling, telling again. And this one is just more about an athlete's mindset. I did it through the eyes of a runner just because it's slightly different. I didn't want to just go down the same lane as MMA did it for you as a runner and just how toxic you'll want and your need to be the best. How it can look like. And again it's. I'll go go into that one. I'll let people watch that one. That one's just called Run Runner. The next one's called Wait. And it's. It's kind of about what anxiety can look like from a position of waiting for good news and a position of waiting for bad news and how the parallels work. And look I almost identical. So you're literally watching Two Point of Views. So these two.

[Joe Rogan]

So this dude's just freaking out waiting for.

[Jamie]

Yeah, he's.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

He's.

[Joe Rogan]

That's cool. Doing things like that.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Thank you man. Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

Very cool.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Like I said, I'm a creative mind. I need to express it in some way. And I know when I leave leave, I'm not going to be one of those guys that retire and want to come back. Every time I want to come back, if I say I'm done, then I'm done.

[Joe Rogan]

Well that's great.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I need something else to go into.

[Joe Rogan]

Nothing better.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Having something you look forward to that you actually enjoy and love outside of it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's hard. It's very hard for guys to end. It becomes your identity. 100 and the thrill, you know, more than anybody, the thrill of doing that is above and beyond almost anything else you'll experience in the life.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

My thrill is usually for me anyway it comes from expressing art and I. We call it martial artists. As much as people see the. The sometimes the blood, the knockouts and stuff, it's art. Like we just watched TJ Delisha that was art. Art. That was pure, pure art. Like, yeah, people don't appreciate that outside of it. And I'm. I love to paint pictures. And I'm like, how can I continue painting pictures after this stage of my life? I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. Movies.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, listen, man, if you make movies, movies like you can fight, I'm in.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Trust me. Yeah, we're doing. I believe you got my camera guy, Kishan Lekaney. He's. It just worked. The synergies just work. He's directing films. Like he's done it for 20 years and he's just unbelievable. So that's awesome. We're gonna do some magical things.

[Joe Rogan]

I love hearing stuff like that. I really do. I really do.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And I got. So like I said, I got a gift for you anyway. What do you like, red or red or black? You can have both of you if you want.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Just a T shirt.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, nice.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And it just. It represents who we are, hands down, martial arts. There guys that do this and everyone mocks all the time, but it's obviously my brand, so. Extra large.

[Joe Rogan]

Large. Large, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Let me see.

[Jamie]

Large here. Large.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you very much.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And then I'm also. I got. Again, I'm into everything, but I got a beef jerky company called Snapdragon Snacks for snapping people wrestling, snapping them down. Snap down snacks or snack down. And some snap down.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you. All right, fantastic. Yes.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Enjoy. Let me know what you think.

[Joe Rogan]

How do people find that company? Is it a website?

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Yeah, just snap down on snap down snacks. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Excellent fuel.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

And when you. When you're. If you're in the UK next, or when you're in the UK next, let me know. I got a Mexican restaurant as well. Ixo. Wow, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's great. You're invested in all kinds.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

We actually had a Kendall. Kendall Jenner's 818 tequila featured in there. We're gonna have Jason Momoa coming end of this month with his vodka Melee. Vodka.

[Joe Rogan]

So look at you.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah. We.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

We're everywhere.

[Jamie]

Everywhere.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, man. I'll see you this weekend. Yes. Thank you for doing this.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Thank you, man.

[Joe Rogan]

My pleasure.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

I really enjoyed it.

[Joe Rogan]

I. I did too.

[Jamie]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

Bye, everybody.

[Michael 'Venom' Page]

Sam.