JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

Summary

JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven – Podcast Summary

Date: August 4, 2026
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Rico Verhoeven (kickboxing legend, heavyweight boxer, actor)
Main Theme: A deep dive into Rico's career, his controversial boxing match against Oleksandr Usyk, combat sports judging, athlete legacy, fighting in multiple disciplines, and the future of combat sports.

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Episode Overview

This episode re-unites Joe Rogan and Rico Verhoeven for the first time in nearly a decade. At the heart lies Rico's breakout boxing match with Oleksandr Usyk—a fight both electrifying and controversial—prompting rich discussion on judging, legacy, the mechanics and future of combat sports, and the personal journey and mindset of an elite striker. The episode also explores the crossover between kickboxing, boxing, MMA, and entertainment, as well as profound moments from Rico’s life, resilience in adversity, and thoughts on what’s next.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Catching Up After Years Apart

• The two reminisce about their last podcast together, almost 10 years prior.
• Joe refers to Rico as “arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time”.

“You have a fight with arguably the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever… And you won 10 fucking rounds, man.”
— Joe Rogan (01:07)

2. Rico’s Boxing Match with Oleksandr Usyk

The Fight & The Controversy

• Joe hails Rico’s performance as one of the wildest moments he’s seen, especially as a dominant kickboxer transitioning to elite boxing.
• Disagreement with official scoring: all experts, trainers, commentators saw Rico as leading, but judges’ scorecards reflected otherwise.
• Referee Stoppage: Both agree the fight was stopped prematurely, especially given Rico’s history of weathering adversity.
• Rematch discussion: Media attention, but official channels remain noncommittal.

“If that went to scorecards and somehow you lost that decision, that would have been a crime. A crime.”
— Joe Rogan (01:38)

“It felt so unjust.”
— Rico Verhoeven (01:46)

The Need for Judging Reform

• Rogan proposes more judges (like Glory’s 5 instead of boxing’s 3), digital expert panels, and open scoring.
• Broad discussion on fighting judging injustices, transparency, and drawing from soccer's VAR system.

“If you have someone who’s judging a fight, which is the most pivotal fight of your career… and it doesn’t make any sense… that’s not fair.”
— Joe Rogan (03:19)

"There should be people or a situation where… ‘Hey, sorry ref, but you made a mistake. This wasn't the right call, so we can overturn it in a split of a second.’"
— Rico Verhoeven (05:34)

Emotional Fallout and Personal Toll

• Rico admits the outcome stings—“still hurts,” watched it back for first time six weeks later.
• Refuses to dwell on “robbery,” but sees the lesson in self-responsibility and “the one mistake” that left him vulnerable.

“I gave them the opportunity to pull this card. That's how it feels for me.”
— Rico Verhoeven (32:44)

Game Plan and Preparation

• Detailed insight into how Rico strategized for Usyk: using size, aggression, movement, and outworking Usyk where others tried to “outbox” him.
• Preparation story: got the fight through friend Jason Statham after a chance conversation.

“We did something that he has not seen before.”
— Rico Verhoeven (14:00)

“So Jason said… ‘You gotta be in here, you gotta kill these guys.’… [That’s] how it started.”
— Rico Verhoeven (14:52)

3. Kickboxing’s Status and The Combat Sports Business

• Joe laments that kickboxing, despite being fan-friendly, didn’t catch on in America.
• Both agree storytelling and promotion (as UFC does for MMA) is key to building stars and pulling in casual fans.

“Kickboxing should be huge in America. It should be. It really should be.”
— Joe Rogan (23:30)

"The strength is... storytelling. Where does this guy come from? What's his background?"
— Rico Verhoeven (24:12)

• Notable moment: Both praise Glory, but say it lacked narrative depth.

4. Transitioning Disciplines – Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing

• Rico explains his decision to vacate his Glory title for new challenges (“I did it all”), interest in MMA, acting, and the colossal challenge of boxing the world’s best.
• Reveals previous near-signing for a Derrick Lewis UFC fight, and why the UFC and MMA are less attractive financially compared to boxing.

"I think, in my opinion, I am one of the baddest men on the planet. So it made sense to do it."
— Rico Verhoeven (27:39)

“I believe that. That the gap is even bigger now… it doesn't make sense to [fight in UFC].”
— Rico Verhoeven (91:00)

5. On Being a Free Agent and Next Steps

• After Usyk, Rico’s getting offers from top orgs worldwide.
• Examines the complexities of boxing rematch clauses, options for crossover fights (Francis Ngannou, Anthony Joshua).
• Timing, legacy, and selectivity matter most as he sees himself "in the winter of my career.”

"For me, I don't want a rematch just to have the rematch. I would like the rematch because it makes sense. There's a story within this rematch."
— Rico Verhoeven (10:10)

• Usyk's future: uncertain, possibly prioritizing easier money fights (e.g., Deontay Wilder).

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Deep Dives

A. Training, Cardio, and Conditioning for a Heavyweight

• Rico details his unique strength/endurance programming: full-body, high-intensity, minimal rest, treadmill running with weight support to protect joints, focus on outlasting and outworking opponents.

"At the top… everybody works hard. What separates you is how you cope with fatigue in your mind."
— Rico Verhoeven (70:21)

B. Life Events and Their Impact

• During the Usyk camp, Rico’s mother passed away; he reflects on using grief as fuel, compartmentalization, and the challenges of emotional balance versus athletic obsession.

“I had the same thing with my father… I just take it and continue, because what I do, I take it and… use it as fuel.”
— Rico Verhoeven (81:00)

• Insightful discussion about transitioning to acting, using real emotion for performance, and planning for post-fighting life.

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Combat Sports Landscape

1. Kickboxing’s Legacy in Holland

• Deep dive into why Holland became kickboxing’s Mecca: small country, high-level competition, cross-pollination in gyms, plus early pioneers like Ramon Deckers.
• Largest sport after football; stadiums fill up, but pay-per-view culture never took root due to proximity.

2. Crossover & Future of Combat Sports

• Praise for Turki Al-Sheikh for making “impossible” crossover fights happen and putting real money behind them (e.g., Ngannou vs. Fury, Crawford vs. Canelo).
• Joe wishes Zuffa would invest similarly to grow kickboxing and Muay Thai in the U.S.

"If someone figured out kickboxing promotion in America, it'd be gigantic."
— Joe Rogan (23:51)

• Media, athlete options, and competition (PFL, One FC, UFC, boxing), plus the need for fighters to receive more equitable compensation and legacy-building opportunities.

3. Rules & Technique Debates

• Talk of safety and rules in MMA: calf kicks, oblique kicks, knees to grounded opponents, the pros/cons of rings vs. cages.

“That’s a kick I don’t like. It’s a career ender.”
— Rico Verhoeven (128:03)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

Most Memorable Quotes

• “It really almost was the biggest upset in boxing history.” – Joe Rogan (13:45)
• “I can only look at that one mistake… Why did I do that?” – Rico Verhoeven (33:13)
• “When I feel I’m getting tired, I know my opponent is fucked.” – Rico Verhoeven (71:02)
• “You have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece.” – Rico Verhoeven (135:20)
• “You should be proud… Greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time.” – Joe Rogan (138:00)

Notable Stories

• Jason Statham helped broker Rico’s boxing jump (15:00–20:00)
• Fighting in front of the pyramids in Egypt, a career full-circle moment connected to photos of his late mother (58:14–59:55)
• Emotional cost of high-stakes losses, watching the fight back weeks later (29:14–29:40)

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Timestamps for Important Topics

• 00:37–02:54 — Immediate deep dive into the Usyk fight, controversy, emotions about the result.
• 04:39–06:41 — Combat sports judging reform, open scoring, parallels to soccer's VAR.
• 09:25–14:00 — Usyk fight build-up, the story of landing the opportunity, strategy explained.
• 24:08–26:10 — Kickboxing vs. MMA/Boxing status in America.
• 34:00–36:10 — Reflections on mistakes, learning from adversity.
• 56:08–57:53 — Why boxing (heavyweight) is now Rico’s focus.
• 58:14–61:55 — Significance and emotion of fighting at the Pyramids.
• 81:00–84:18 — Coping with grief, the double-edged sword of turning pain into athletic performance.
• 105:39–106:40 — Explosive growth and potential of combat sports.
• 112:41–114:24 — Physical risks and the need for fairer compensation/judging in combat sports.
• 130:02–131:51 — MMA rules, cage vs ring debate.
• 134:25–135:20 — The art of boxing vs. the brutality and pace of kickboxing.

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Tone & Vibe

• Honest, open, emotional, and technically rich.
• Rico is humble, hungry, and grateful but candid about pain and frustration.
• Joe exudes passionate fandom and deep technical knowledge, but is also playful, sometimes incredulous, always reverential toward Rico’s achievements.

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Conclusion

This episode serves as both celebration and critique—a testament to Rico Verhoeven’s exceptional combat journey; a call for better judging and athlete welfare; an insider's look at how world-class fighters think, train, and make career-decisions; and a meditation on legacy, transition, and what makes combat so powerful for practitioner and fan alike. The future—whether a Usyk rematch, boxing glory, cinematic stardom, or all of the above—is wide open, and the seeds for change in combat sports may well have been planted here.

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Highlight for Newcomers:
Even if you missed the fight or are new to Rico’s career, this conversation brings you into the heart of high-level athlete experience, the business and art of fighting, and the emotional stakes at play.

For Combat Sports Fans:
A must-listen masterclass in tactics, training, combat sports history and culture—plus a timely discussion on athlete pay, the power of promotion, and the unique magic of kickboxing as both sport and spectacle.

Transcript

[A]

Joe rogan podcast. Check it out. The joe rogan experience.

[B]

Train my day.

[A]

Joe rogan podcast by night, all day.

[B]

Good to see you, champ.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

We were just trying to figure out how long it's been. How, what year? When was the last one we did together? I think it was 2017. Almost 10 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or maybe might have been 16.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Yes.

[B]

Was it really? No.

[A]

71.

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Yeah. He has the data. He's got it.

[B]

Like,

[A]

maybe we just got punched to the head a little bit too.

[B]

A little bit. Well, listen, man, I want to tell you that that fight with Usyk was one of the craziest things that I've ever seen in my life. Never in my life did I think a guy who. Who would go straight from kickboxing. Did you have any professional boxing matches?

[A]

One.

[B]

One. One professional.

[A]

I've been boxing for 15 years.

[B]

Of course. Well, also, you're arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that.

[B]

And you have a fight with arguably the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. He's in the conversation 100%. 100% in the conversation of the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. And you won 10 fucking rounds, man. You won 10 rounds.

[A]

Close to that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't give a fuck what those judges were saying. Those judges are trying to say it was close. Like, it was almost like you were up. I think one of them had you up by one round and the other ones had a draw.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's.

[B]

That's a crime. If that went to scorecards and somehow you lost that decision, that would have been a crime. A crime.

[A]

I know. And I gotta be honest, I think, like, we're straight jumping into it, so. And, like, I think that's. That's the hard part of it. Like, I don't like losing, but I don't. If it happens, it happens. But I think that's the part that. That makes it even harder that I've. It felt so unjust and it felt unjust.

[B]

The stoppage felt unjust. It didn't seem like it made sense. No, but they were looking for a way to stop the.

[A]

Exactly. But next to that, like, you say this as a combat sports commentator for years and pray you've been in the sport for so many years, and all other professional boxers and commentators, etcetera, they all see the fight a certain way. Like, you saw it, like, how I experienced it. And then when we look at the scorecards, we get like, a totally different fight. Like, what is going on there. And that is, for me, where the toughness is of the whole experience.

[B]

Right. It's very difficult to accept. And if you had lost by decision, it would have been insanity. And we've seen those insane decisions before, and I never know what's going on. You know, I don't want to think it's corruption, but it's almost worse if it's incompetence. If you have someone who's judging a fight, which is, like, the most pivotal fight, arguably, of your career, you think about how long you've been reigning as a heavyweight champion of kickboxing for, like, a decade, which is crazy. At the highest level, especially at the heavyweight division, it is so hard to stay at the top. Nobody does. Everybody's like. Even in the ufc, it's like, one, two fights, and then. Then they fall off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For you to be the heavyweight champion and have fucking wars like Jamal, Ben, Sadiq, that fight, like, some of these fights, if you had wars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to come out on top every single fucking time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you have this enormous fight, and you have terrible judging. Terrible judging. And it's like, it's almost worse if it's incompetence, because if you've got these people that don't know what they're watching and they're calling, like, their eyes, their decision makes a difference about whether it's a W or an L, and it doesn't make any sense. It's not fair. It's not right. I think at this point in time, they should really seriously consider having alternative scoring. I think there should be more. One of the things I like about glory is that glory has more than three judges. What do they have, four or five? Five, I believe five. I think five's the right number. I think three is too few, because you could have two people fuck it up and one person gets it right, but if you had two more judges, the odds are they're gonna get it right, too. Usually the people that fuck it up, it's the minority.

[A]

Yeah. But if you ask me, like, next to us as athletes, putting our health on the line, which makes it very, very hard thing to cope with. But also for the people watching the fight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like, like you said, it feels unjust. And I definitely feel like, especially in the time that we're in now, everybody wants transparency. If we look at the World cup that just finished, like, even there, when something happens, the referee is still a person. He can make, like, a mistake. He can look at the foul, and he's like, I saw it this way, but now what they're doing, they're looking at the var, they're looking at the cameras, and multiple people are looking at it and like, hey, we can interpret the rules like this, because this happened, we can see this and. And this is wrong. So even it's going to be a card or it's going to be a penalty or whatever. This is what's happening. But within this situation, it's just like, if you ask me, and it's still possible, it's a human being, the referee made a mistake, and that is possible, but there should be people or a situation where it's like, hey, sorry, ref, but you made a mistake. This wasn't the right call, so we can overturn it in a split of a second.

[B]

The only thing that's really hard to do with that subjectively, is fight stoppages. Because sometimes, at least in mma, a referee sees things in a fighter that you might not see things watching on television or sitting at my seat as a commentator, a referee will see a guy's eyes roll back in his head. He'll see something that I don't see and I'll go, oh, I thought that was a little quick. And then. But they're right on top of it. They see certain things that you might not be able to see.

[A]

Yeah, but that's the thing. I appealed it, I appealed it and everything we appealed upon, they said, like, you guys were right, we got stopped after the bell. Yes, right after the stoppage, the doctor came. I wasn't disorientated, didn't have no concussion or whatever symptoms. So everything, everything we got, they're like, no, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[B]

But they never overturned, they never overturned nothing. Also, how would they overturn it? Would they go to the judges scorecards? And if they did go to the judges scorecards, what would it be? A majority draw. Because if you are down or you're even on both cards and then up on one, and then did they count the knockdowns in the final round? Because if they did, you might have lost that fight, which is even crazier.

[A]

Yeah, but then you have something like, hey, guys, let's look at the scoring cards again. And like other people, other judges look at the scorecards and look at the fight and score it again.

[B]

Because, well, here's where, you know, it

[A]

doesn't make any sense.

[B]

Here's what you know, it's crazy. It was the most competitive fight of Usyk's career. As a heavyweight champion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're not even talking at all about a rematch. No, that's kind of. This episode is presented by Manscape. Guys, if you need grooming gear, this is the week to do it. Manscape's week of shaving sale is live right now. 20% off everything. Beard trimmers, head shavers, body groomers, all of it. Check out manscape.com before it's over. Sale ends on August 11th. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Identity theft costs more than you think. That's why LifeLock is backed by the million dollar protection package, which covers up to $3 million for the most comprehensive plan. So if your money is stolen due to identity theft, if you have personal expenses while resolving it, like paying for extra childcare or need coverage for lost wages because work also had to take a backseat, LifeLock has your back. Plus there's coverage if you need to pay fees for law and experts to resolve your case. Don't face the burden of identity theft alone. Protect your future and finances with LifeLock. Visit lifelock.com jre and save up to 30% your first year. That's lifelock.com jre for 30% off. Terms apply. Crazy, right? Isn't that kind of crazy? They're saying Deontay Wilder, which all love to deontay. Yeah, but Deontay is not Deontay Wilder of 2019. No, he's a different guy now.

[A]

That's a good. That's a good thing that you just brought that up because before this fight, you heard the whole conversation. Okay, we're gonna do rico. After that, I'm gonna fight the winner of Dubois Awardley. And after that, I want to fight Tyson Fury again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The other two are not in the conversation anymore. So without taking too much credit for it, I think, like, with this fight, he saw, like, this was a little harder than I expected. So let's take it. Let's take a different route. And for me, I don't want a rematch, just to have the rematch. I would like the rematch because it makes sense. There's a story within this rematch.

[B]

It's huge.

[A]

And it's something that. It is unfinished business.

[B]

Yes. And it's a Rocky store. A real, live Rocky store.

[A]

100%. And that's why for me, where I'm looking at now, I'm like in the fall of my. Or maybe in the winter of my career as an athlete, and I just want to do big fights that make sense. And then you're like, oh, this is what I Want to see.

[B]

Not only that, as a promoter, what makes more sense than that fight? Yeah, the Deontay Wilder fight. Again, all respect to Deontay. I love that guy. He's one of the greatest knockouts in the history of the heavyweight division. He's not the same guy. No, he's not the same guy. For whatever reason, it happens to everybody. Right. I think he's 40 now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It happens to everybody. You just got off of a crazy performance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the whole world got to see it. If any fight warrants a rematch, it's that fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That fucking rematch would be gigantic. It would be so huge. It's the ultimate Rocky story. I was watching that fight on the edge of my seat, because the fight starts, I'm like, how's this going to go down? How's this going to go down? I'm like, whoa. First of all, I'm like, holy shit. Rico's fucking huge. He realized how big you are. And you know, Usyk is a cruiserweight. He's a cruiserweight to put on weights. He could still make cruiser if he wanted to. If he wanted to get really lean, he could still make cruiser easily. You're way bigger than him. I'm like, that's a giant factor. And then it's your experience, your world championship level experience. You've been in so many big fights, you look so calm and so relaxed and so in the moment. And I was like, holy shit, he might pull it off. And then it got into like the third, fourth and fifth round. I'm like, I don't see this changing. I'm like, this is crazy.

[A]

So funny. If you hear the commentators, they were like, okay, Rico's moving a lot and he's fainting and he's doing this and he's doing that. But how long can he keep this up?

[B]

Well, they don't know about your cardio. Exactly.

[A]

There was one commentator that also commentated for Glory.

[B]

Well, Alistair. Alistair was there.

[A]

Yeah, he was also there. He was also there. But the commentator for Glory that he knew like that cardio wise, I live in the gym, that's what. And you know as well, like, I love this, so I don't. I'm never going to lose on cardio because then I lose for myself.

[B]

So you're an anomaly in terms of like 260 pound men. There's very few guys that are as big as you that push a pace like you did. So I wasn't. When they were saying that, I was like, you guys, you know, you guys don't understand what you're seeing here. He's going to be able to do this all night long.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, credit to Usyk for finally catching you and rocking you. But the fight was stopped too quickly. It just was 100% and you were still okay. You got in a world championship fight. That's that close. If it just not even really that close. You were that far ahead. You got to give someone a chance.

[A]

Yeah, but let's, let's, let's reverse it. Let's reverse what? If he was in this position, there

[B]

was no way they would stop that fight. No way. Look, it's either incompetence or corruption. And I tend to think corruption. This is what I, I think these guys want to keep judging fights and they want the favor of the promoters. And the money is in Usyk. Usyk is a huge name. He's a. He's their big star in the heavyweight division.

[A]

They don't. They don't want, like a guy coming in from a different sport, one professional boxer. Exactly. And making the biggest. Making the biggest upset in boxing history. That would be.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

That would be pretty crazy.

[B]

It really almost was the biggest upset in boxing history. I mean, it was crazy. It was really crazy to watch, man. But you were the perfect guy to do it because of the pace thing, because of the fact that you are so big and you can push that insane pace and keep it up for the 12 rounds.

[A]

And also, game plan wise, we were so smart on the game plan, we did something that he has not seen before, that he has not experienced before, even though he. He fought the best boxers in the world. But all the boxers, what they were trying to do is outbox the heavyweight boxers were trying to outbox a cruiserweight. How in the hell are you gonna do that? He's lighter, he's smaller, and he's faster. So how are you gonna.

[B]

He's super technical.

[A]

Exactly. So how are you gonna outbox him? You just gotta have a super strong game plan. And that's what we had.

[B]

So when you looked at it, when you first got the offer, first of all, how far out did you get the offer? How far out away from the fight? How much time did you have to prepare?

[A]

Well, did, did you, did you. Do you know the story, how I got into this whole thing?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. No, it's a crazy story. Okay, let me tell you. So it all started with the Canelo Crawford fight. And Jason Statham is a good friend of mine, and I saw he was in Vegas for that fight. So I Texted him. He was like, yo, you were there for that fight. Oh, my God. Yeah, this is gonna be crazy. So we went back and forth. It's like, yeah, bro. So he told me, brother, you need to be in boxing. Because he was at the tournament when I did the eight man tournament a few years ago. And so he comes to my fights and he's like, oh, you gotta be in here. You gotta kill these guys. I said, yeah, yeah, I think I could do pretty good. He's like, you know what? I'm gonna throw it out there and let's see what happens. Okay, so that was. Let me see. There was Vegas time during the day, so Amsterdam time. It was nighttime. So the next morning, I'm on the treadmill, I'm running. The phone rang. Jason said, yo, bro, I'm on the treadmill. Let me call you back. Listen, I put your name out there, I showed your videos, and they're going crazy. They want you. I jumped off. I was like, what do you mean? They said, they want to do something, they're gonna call you. I gave them your contact. Like, okay. So that's how it started. A few days later, they called me, Rico, we want you to fight. Blah, blah. We love what you do, and we want you to fight Anthony Joshua. So I'm like, okay, let's go. I'm ready for this opportunity. But I was on the set of Roadhouse 2. So it was like, oh, shit. Now we gotta combine everything. I have my trainer coming in, like, during. Yeah, during takes. And like, okay, we do some pad work. And then finally we were supposed to fight in February, so I think the deal came around October. October, November. So I had, like, around 10 good weeks to train. And then finally I finish off the movie in December, and. And he. But in between, Joshua got the offer to fight Jake Paul for a crazy amount of money. So he was like, of course I'm gonna do that. And then after that, I'm gonna. Gonna do the Rico fight. Perfect. Okay. He does the Jake Paul fight. Well, that went, like, how it went. And then they reached out, like, can we push the fight a little bit instead of February to March? Like, I'm good. The more time I get, the better to train to transition into boxing. So that happened. And then the end of the year, like, two weeks later, that tragic accident happens. So there was.

[B]

Yeah, we're talking about Anthony Joshua. He was in Africa. Terrible car accident. Killed two of his friends.

[A]

Yeah, terrible. So that derailed that whole situation. But I had a whole training plan scheduled. I was Going to Spain to train there for a month. But I didn't know what was going to happen, so I just did what I had to do and I just continued training. So I was in Spain, training, training, training. And then at the end of that training camp, they. We were talking about it and they said, like, yeah, we don't think. Also with. With. With this manager, Eddie Hearn. Like, I don't know if he's going to be back soon. So what do you want to do? You want to wait or you want to fight? Like, I'm already training, so I would like to fight somebody, but we don't know what makes sense. No, let's think about it. So we thought about. We thought about it. They thought about it.

[B]

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[A]

And then we were talking about, hey, what about. What about usyk? Does that make sense?

[B]

Was it your idea?

[A]

Yeah, it was our idea. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Why not? Because he's the. He's the top dog. It's like, Undisputed Kickboxing Champion versus the Undisputed Boxing Champion. Like, there's a story there. Yeah, it's like, let's just throw it out there. Let's see what they say. Okay, pick up the phone, call them. Yo, yo, guys. Yeah, we have an idea. So I pitched him the whole idea. Undisputed versus Undisputed. Silence. Oh, my God, what did I just do? Then the first thing I hear back, we love it. Whoa. I said, okay, what does that mean? What does that mean? So. So they said, you know what? We're going to talk to Usyk's team and we're going to come back to you. And then in two weeks, they went to Usyk. USYK loved the idea as well. So again, big shout out to him for taking that fight as well, because he had hundreds of options and he took this fight outside the box. So I love it. Also to His Excellency Turki Elishaik for setting this whole thing up.

[B]

Oh, he has set up so many great fights. He's so important to box, fighting super

[A]

super much respect for both of them. And thankful also to Jason, of course, for setting this whole thing up.

[B]

Thank you, Jason.

[A]

Yeah, and getting me into. Yeah, getting me into the conversation. And then like, so that was after two weeks. And then two weeks later, we. We were on a FaceTime call for like a minute. And yeah, after that they got it done. And then, and then afterwards they said, like, oh, it's going to be a title fight. And then the whole world went crazy, of course. Like, oh, my God, how is this guy going to go for a world title fight? It doesn't make any sense. I was just like, let's go, we're gonna shock the world.

[B]

Well, you know, it's not like you hadn't had a lifetime of striking. It's only the difference is removing the kicks. That's.

[A]

Yeah, but the thing is, like, the boxing fans, the straight up boxing fans, they're not too much into mma and they're definitely not into kickboxing. So they had no clue, Right. They had no clue of like, right, right. Who is this guy? What did he do? And that's why also the wbc, they also have their Muay Thai department. So for them it made sense. It's like, hey, Rico, with his credentials and what he did in kickboxing, it makes sense to make it a world championship fight. But we just have to tell the

[B]

people, well, you know, it drives me nuts as a fan of combat sports, as also a giant fan of kickboxing, that kickboxing does not get the love that it deserves. In America. It doesn't make any sense because in mma, the casual fans love stand up and when fights go to the ground, they boo. So like, makes no sense to me how you have boxing. Huge. Yeah, mma, huge. Kickboxing, almost non existent in America. There's no big kickboxing leagues.

[A]

No. But maybe because they. They want to see. Yeah. Their own people win, maybe.

[B]

No, no, it just hasn't been promoted. Right. It doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense because their own people don't win. In mma, I mean, there's very few American champions. There's Justin Gaethje and Sean Strickland. Yeah.

[A]

But at least they're really competitive and in kickboxing they're right.

[B]

That's true. But we don't care, honestly. In the. In mma. No. I mean, Alex Pereira was the biggest star in the sport. Yeah, exactly. But Brazilian doesn't speak English at all. Only speaks Portuguese and whatever other language is tribal language. And so then you have Islam, Makhachev, Was fighting next weekend, huge star, you know, from Dagestan.

[A]

No.

[B]

1 in America, all they care are you the baddest motherfucker on earth. That's all they care. And I really genuinely believe that. If someone came along, like, I really wish Zufa would do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're doing it with boxing, they should do it with kickboxing. Because kickboxing or Muay Thai, whichever they decide, you know, I think is the most exciting stand up sport in the world. I don't think it's even close.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I love glory. I fucking watch it all the time. I watch all the events. Yeah, it's so exciting, man. It's so fun. And the fights are so chaotic. And if you're a fan of brutal. Brutal and technical at the same time, I mean, some of the most amazing fights, I mean, that's how I knew about Pereira, is because I was such a huge fan of Glory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I, when he came over to the ufc, I was like, everyone's fucked. I'm like, you don't understand. Everyone's fucked. This guy's different, man.

[A]

Yeah, he is.

[B]

He's different.

[A]

He's amazing.

[B]

But it was because I knew him so much from kickboxing and he was so exciting in kickboxing. Like, kickboxing should be huge in America. It should be. It really should be.

[A]

Yeah. 100%. 100%. And it's. It's a part of MMA. So I think a lot of guys.

[B]

A giant part of mma. The most exciting part of MMA is the kickboxing, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. 100%. 100%.

[B]

Makes no sense. It's a, it's a. It is an untapped market that if somebody figured it out and dove in and made it, it would be gigantic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It would have to be like the ufc, though, because you have to have the kind of publicity machine, the kind of media machine that the UFC has.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To build up the stories and show these gu. And show, like all the champions.

[A]

100%. But I think that's in every big fight and every big organization is where the strength is. Is the storytelling.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That is where I think. Where. And also, if you ask me, like, when I was in Glory, where it lacked on experience, like the storytelling, where does this guy come from? What is his background? And like, you want to get to know the person instead of just like the guy that throws punches and kicks.

[B]

Exactly. The UFC does an awesome job with that. They have a whole series called Embedded. So, like, next week, when the Ian Gary Islamic fight Takes place. They're going to have one on Monday. So you get up on Monday morning, it'll be there on. On YouTube and everybody will watch it. And they're like, oh, shit. You watch that one, then you watch the one on Tuesday. You see them training, see him eating, see him in a sauna, cutting weight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You see him doing all their press stuff. You see him and you get hyped, man.

[A]

You get hyped, but you get drawn into like, oh, yeah, this is the guy exactly behind the fighter.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I think that's so much more interesting.

[B]

And then they have the countdown show, which is an hour countdown shows, like, highly produced and all this different stuff. Interviews and conversations with their family. It's fucking amazing. And it just gets you so jazzed up for the fight. If the UFC did something like that with kickboxing, I think it would be gigantic. You know, they tried glory in America for a while and he was doing pretty good on Spike tv, remember?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like they had the Last Man Standing tournament in Los Angeles. Angeles, Yeah. I went to that. It was awesome. It's just. It just never caught on.

[A]

No, you know, it was. It was hard. It was. Yeah. It's too bad. And so. And then after the last few years, we were just in Europe more in the Netherlands. That's where we. Yeah.

[B]

One is doing a good job with kickboxing. One fc. And I don't know. You don't know them?

[A]

No. Yeah. And I know about them, but I don't know.

[B]

I don't know if they're doing good or not in the lighter weight divisions because they get a lot of guys from Thailand and a lot of guys from Japan.

[A]

Yeah, they're more Asian based. Right? They're not.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. More Asian based. But they have a lot of stand up fights now. A lot of like either they have Muay Thai with MMA gloves on. Yeah. In a cage. Brutal. And then they're also having kickboxing in a cage and kickboxing in a ring. They mix it up between rings.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I personally think the ring is better. I really do. Because I think that there's a lot of weird stuff with the cage, you know, like the cage, especially with mma. I don't like it because it. You could. You could use it to get back up. Yeah, you could, like, get your back against it and pull yourself back up. You could also use it to take people down. It's harder to take people down with the ring.

[A]

Yeah. I believe 100. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

But that's why it's good for me now. Like, I. Yeah, well, I know there was a talk. Free agent.

[B]

Yeah, there was a talk about you fighting Derrick Lewis. Yeah, I remember that. And then you got this, the offer to box, and it was so much money.

[A]

Yeah, the Joshua fight.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, that's right.

[A]

That's where it started. So, yeah, so we were in talks because I was a free agent. I vacated the belt.

[B]

How many MMA fights you have? You. At least one.

[A]

Yeah, just one. I did some grappling years ago, but I just have one professional MMA fight. So after that, vacating my belt, I was a free agent. So we were like, okay, let's dip our toes in different water. Let's see what's on the landscape now.

[B]

Why did you decide to vacate the belt? Because you had done everything you needed

[A]

to do it all.

[B]

You cleaned out the division.

[A]

I did it all. So I was like. I wanted. I wanted it to make sense. And first we talked within the organization of, like, hey, I'm looking to do big stuff, different stuff. So, like, crossover events. Because that was getting more and more talked about, like, the big crossover events. And I think, yeah, in my opinion, I am one of the baddest men on the planet. So it made sense to do it. But then, yeah, within the organization, management. Wrong management. Like, we just. Yeah, didn't get it. We just didn't get to a place where it works out. So I was like, okay, let me just leave it then. So I left it, and then we talked with UFC to see. Yeah, what was going on there. But then, yeah, I got the other offer, and it made more sense now.

[B]

Was the other offer a one contract fight? A one fight contract. So you're free.

[A]

I'm a free agent again.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So. And that's why.

[B]

Was there any conversation at all about a rematch?

[A]

Yeah. Right away, His Excellency came into the ring and he said, you're gonna fight this guy again. That's the first thing he said. But Caballao also came into the ring. Ajit Kabao, the WBC interim champion and now the champion because Usyk vacated the belt as well. So he also wanted his shot. So there was, like, a lot of talk. And, like, at that moment, I was there, but it was just like, I don't know.

[B]

Chaos.

[A]

Yeah, chaos. And for me, I was just like, wow, did this.

[B]

They just fucked you.

[A]

Yeah, this really just happened. And it took me, like, at least six weeks before I watched the fight back for the very first time after the fight.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because it still hurts.

[B]

So.

[A]

So, yeah. So now I'm like a free agent. And we got so many, we got so many offers. No.

[B]

What is it like watching it and watching the fight get stopped after the bell?

[A]

It still hurts. It still hurts. I'm like, wow, what, what did you, what did you want me to do? You want me to move around? Did you want me to, to punch back or whatever? For me, like, you know, I've been in, in trouble multiple times within my world title kickboxing fights. I was behind multiple times and I still came out on top. So there was, for me, there's no conversation in like, okay, could he continue? Is he gonna continue? I never stop.

[B]

They don't know. You know, the thing is the conditioning thing, like, your conditioning is so good. You bounce back so quick. And there's been so many times where guys try to empty the tank to put you out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're not going nowhere.

[A]

No. And it's, it was just a few seconds and a referee should know that. So next to that, like, with all the experience, you know, that I have within the combat sports, like, it's just a few seconds. Let it go and let me at least give me the opportunity and give the fans the opportunity to see that 12 round, right? So.

[B]

Oh, it would have been so exciting.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. But also looking now, looking back at it because there was also open scoring and I love open scoring, because within that gives you the right position and gives the fighters the position like, okay, where are we standing within this fight? But now looking back at the fight after eight rounds, because after every four rounds, we hear what the scoring is after eight rounds. My trainer, Peter Fury, says, okay, we gotta really start winning these rounds now. I was like, I was like, am I hearing this right? I feel like I'm already winning these rounds. He said, no, we're equal. We're equal on the scorecards after eight rounds. So I was like, okay. So in the ninth round, even the

[B]

commentators were like, what?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. But then I really started pushing even more. But I was pushing already. But if you know you're like eight or seven rounds head and you feel like you're getting tired, the last two or three rounds just move around. Yeah, tip tap. And maybe you lose it, maybe it's a draw, whatever. And then still you win because you were like five rounds ahead, then it doesn't make any sense. But now we had to keep pushing and then. Oh, it's like walking straight into that uppercut. Like, still. It still gets me. Oh, When I look back at it, it's like, oh, and then that last part, that's what I find so hard. And I feel like I need to work on that as a human being, for myself, as a person. I can only look at that. At that one mistake I felt I made at the end because I gave them the opportunity to pull this card. That's how it feels for me.

[B]

Mistake being that you push too hard

[A]

or mistake you have the mistake. Like, there was one mistake that I made running into that uppercut, like, walking straight in, swinging. And we said in the. In the. In the whole prep, I tried that a few times, like, oh, that's dangerous. Don't do that with Usyk. And still, for whatever reason, I did that at that exact moment. And that. That's what. What frustrates me if I look back at it, because I'm only. I'm not looking at what he did well, because that uppercut was amazing. I'm just looking at what I. What I'm responsible for, and I'm responsible for myself. And I gave them now this opportunity by making that mistake. And that's like, oh, so hard to get over that for myself. But I need to work on that because I had the same with the Jamal Ben Sadiq fight with the Eye. Everybody's like, oh, Rico, you showed them you're never giving up. But I know I got that. I know I got that from the inside. But I never have to show that because the skill set is so, so big that I don't get in. I don't get in trouble. So I don't have to show that I can continue and never giving up. But I can only look at that. Oh, that one mistake. Why did I do that? Then I get the eye. Like, you're so stupid. So I can only look at that. Yeah, it's.

[B]

And that guy fucking punches hard. Yeah. And he's a big fella.

[A]

Yeah, he's bigger than I am.

[B]

Jamal Ben Sadiq is huge. Powerful, powerful.

[A]

So it's. It. That's. That. That's harmful. But I got to work on that before myself. Like.

[B]

Yeah, but that's also why you're great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you have to. You have to hate mistakes. Hate them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like they're poison.

[A]

Yeah, they are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, but you got. Yeah. Yeah. You should have seen me after the fight. Like, I was. I was like a big baby. I was crying in my. My hotel room like a big, big baby. I was like, oh, my God. I was so close, like, shocking the world. And now this happened. It was like, oh, it hurts so bad. It still hurts to a certain extent,

[B]

but at least you could laugh at it a little bit now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can only imagine, to me, watching it as a fan of yours, I was like, oh my God, he's gonna fuck it. Pull it off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was on the edge of my seat, and when we're going into the 9th and 10th rounds, I was like, I don't see how Usyk can win. And then when they started talking about the scorecards, I was like, what the fuck are they watching? This is crazy.

[A]

They're looking at a different fight. But that's so.

[B]

But for me, either corrupt or incompetent.

[A]

Yeah. If I look at it now, and for us talking about it and for you being so long into combat sports and being a commentator and doing it yourself, wouldn't it be something? Wouldn't you be maybe a spokesman or a part? Could you be a part of a way how we can make this whole judging thing and this whole transparency better?

[B]

Well, I think one way to do it is to have more judges, like Lori does. I think five is probably the right number. And I think another thing to do is maybe have a bunch of people online that are recognized experts, like top trainers, top commentators, people that really understand the sport. And maybe they get an app, maybe there's like a special app that those guys can judge on. So you have a collective expert opinion and you get to look at that as well.

[A]

But that's what we had. Now, like, if you look, the professionals, the trainers, the commentators, they all saw the fight a certain way, but the judges saw something totally. They were looking at a different fight for some kind of reason.

[B]

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[A]

That's.

[B]

That.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

A problem like we talked about, it's either incompetence or it's corruption. And I think it might be a little bit of both.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think maybe the corruption isn't even conscious, but it's like they know who the promoter wants to win. They want USYK to win. Because USYK is where you can get the next Tyson Fury fight. Or the Anthony Joshua. Well, not Anthony Joshua, but whoever he would decide to fight, you know, again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now it's going to be Deontay Wilder, which nobody's calling for.

[A]

I don't know if it's going to happen.

[B]

Where is that signed? Can you please find out if the Anthony Joshua or, excuse me, the Deontay Wilder Alexander Usyk fight is signed? Because people were talking about that being. I think they were saying, like, December or something.

[A]

They were trying for it. At least I know that's what I. That's what they were trying for. But for me, like, that's why, for

[B]

now, it's not officially signed yet. Okay. Plea to His Excellency Turkey Al Sheik. This is the fight. But here's the question. Does Usyk want that fight? That's the question.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

A really tough fight like that fight, and then, you know, they ask you to do it again. This is your last time out. I mean, this is. He's calling. This is his last fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If this is his last fight and he almost lost to you and he has the potential of losing again, they'd have to entice him. They'd have to fucking. Pull out that paper.

[A]

Pull out that paper. Then he's like, big bag. Then he's like, okay, if I lose, it is what it is. Exactly. But that's why it's so good for me now to be in this position. I'm a free agent. We got offers from the biggest organizations across the world, like, after this fight, and I'm just, like, taking my time.

[B]

What offers have they given you? That's exciting. Can you talk about them?

[A]

Not really.

[B]

No.

[A]

Not really.

[B]

Tell me afterwards. Yeah, I know a lot of people talked about you possibly boxing Francis Ngannou or having an MMA fight with Francis Ngannou. Was that on the table?

[A]

Yeah. No. So to be honest, like, two weeks before the USYK fight, there was the MVP card.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then they approached me, like, weeks before, MVP to mma versus Francis. And then I was also, like, right on the edge of, like, closing the deal with Usyk. And so I had the two options on the table. And. And yeah, to be honest, like, the other, the MMA deal, like, they kept on, like, stacking up, stacking up. Like, Rico, it's like, okay, what if we give you the okay? But what if you give me the okay? Let me look at this option again. But then, yeah, I just look myself in the mirror. Like, I respect His Excellency and Jason gave his word and His Excellency gave his word that they were going to do it. And if I look at myself, I'm looking at legacy. And that Francis Nagano fight is still going to be there after the Usyk fight. But how crazy is that as a kickboxer coming in fighting for a world championship within boxing and potentially winning? Because that's how I. I only have one, one plan, and that's winning. So that's how I went into that fight. And. And we saw how that went. And there was.

[B]

Didn't you wish you could kick him?

[A]

No, not really. Not at all. No.

[B]

Didn't you wish you could Just a

[A]

few low kicks because he's definitely not gonna make it to the end. No, but that was so funny because everybody's like, rico, you've been kickboxing for so long. Like, what happens if you head kick him? Like, just like, don't you have that feeling? Like, guys, like, I've been boxing next to doing kickboxing, like, for 15 years or something. I've been working with Peter Fury for so long, and I'm used to this. But I know for. I think that's what made me such a good kickboxer as well, that I was into boxing.

[B]

But there's a giant difference between working with a kickboxer and even being a kickboxer and fighting arguably the greatest heavyweight

[A]

of all time, 100%. But the crazy thing was, I think. I think it was. Was around five or six. I was like, he was jabbing me. I was just taking it away. And I was like, I'm like talking to myself in the fight. I'm like, am I out jabbing the champ? This is crazy. And then my trainer. You're training my trainer, Dennis Rico. Just keep doing what you're doing. You're winning this fight. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Because he also didn't want me to take too many risks. Okay, you won this round. And then continue from there. Because that's how they were experiencing it the fight and the rounds on the side.

[B]

Well, let me ask you this. When you first started formulating a game plan, did you watch a bunch. I'm sure you're already a fan of Usyk. You watch his fights, but did you re watch them and try to find patterns? How did you formulate this game plan?

[A]

Of course, with my trainer, Peter Fury. With. He's. Yeah, he's crazy. He's the very, very, very bad best at what he does. And we were just, like, analyzing these fights, like, so first, he already had the thing in his mind, and he asked me, like, what do you see all these boxers do and what they shouldn't be doing, and what do you think they should do? So I look at it, I look at it, I look at it. And I think it basically started with, if somebody is a South Pole, why would you stay right in front of them? That's one thing. And because you cannot go. If somebody's orthodox, you move to the right, but you cannot move to the right with a South Pole because you're walking straight into a left hand. So why is nobody moving to the left? Because then as soon as you move to the left, you're walking away from that strong arm, I think. And that's where he's at. Exactly.

[B]

Which is crazy. It's just so many people are so stuck in their patterns. The way they like to move. They like to move to their right. Yeah, that's what they like. They feel good. They want to move to their right and throw a right hand, but you're just running into that power hand. It's just crazy that. It's not just that, too. It's also the size difference. Like, that was one thing. It's like you were so big in that ring that you were smothering him and you were on top of him and you were throwing those shots in tight.

[A]

But the combination of those two getting him out of that position took away so many of his tools. And then, like you said, smothering and getting into him and using my size, because if you ask me, like, all the guys he fought are way, they're my size. They're way bigger than him, but. Because the way they fought, they couldn't use their size on him. But the way I did it, I could.

[B]

Tyson Fury did a lot. He used his size a lot, you know, and he's a different kind of big, though. He's big and long where you're fucking thick, you know, it's a different thing. You're very lean and huge. Is A different. It's like the mass of you. When you were on top of him, pushing him, you could see that it was a factor. He was recognizing it.

[A]

But it's so hard. Like, if you look at that fight that you just mentioned is how are you gonna get. He tried to use his size, but how are you gonna get close to him, walking straight into it? Because he's. Then he's just gonna keep moving, right? Because he's so fast on his feet. But that's what we tried to do. We try to be fast up on our feet and move to the side and then get into it and then get close. Because then as soon as you. He's a softball, you keep moving this way and just keep getting closer somewhere. You're gonna. You're gonna be there, you're gonna reach him. Yeah, but it takes. It takes some time. And I didn't think, if you look at the heavyweights, what they all want to do is they want to. Bam. They want to hit maybe. Boom, boom. One, two, versus the very of. Arguably one of the best to have ever done it. And then, especially in a cruiserweight, how are you gonna hit him in step A, right? It's gonna be at least step B, C or D. When you're gonna hit him, you gotta have multiple plans. Like, for me, I was just throwing, throw, throw, throw, throw. And I know I'm gonna.

[B]

I was the.

[A]

The first I was gonna hit him was maybe in Punch 6 or whatever, because then the distance is going to be closer. So I didn't even think about trying to knock his head off. That's what I said. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to try and knock his head off. Of course I'm going to tell him that, because that this is definitely not what we're going to do. I was just going to get close and keep working, keep working volume. And then finally, when you're there, that's the moment you're gonna put in some power. But that's like maybe punch seven or eight, but the first three, four, you're not even gonna hit this. Gonna. You just. You're just hitting air. Because he's too fast, right?

[B]

Yeah. He's like a giant Lomachenko.

[A]

Exactly. That's how we thought about it. Don't try and hit him in the first two or three punches. Throw them so he has something to look at and something to think about. And then we're gonna get there. And as soon as you get there, you smother him. Boom. Punch him in the body.

[B]

What heavyweight boxers have you worked with over the years?

[A]

All the top fighters, of course. That's how I got with Petey Fury. I started with Tyson Fury. I trained with Ajit Kabalyau because he was also in that camp back then. Huey Fury, Peter Sun, I think he's also. He's been going up and down because of his health, but he's definitely one of the best. And he. We're gonna see more of him because, yeah, he's such a good competitor, such a good boxer as well. Great skill set. So there's been a bunch of fighters that we work with.

[B]

That's so massive because, you know, sharing all that gym time with elite guys like Tyson Fury. Yeah, you know, and Colby, having that kind of experience in the gym must have also been a huge confidence boost.

[A]

100. Especially now in this whole last thing is trying to get like good South Pole fighters. Oh, my God. That's the hardest thing. The hardest thing. And then we had one big guy and we had one, One smaller guy. It was. It was so hard. And then mixing that up. So we started off with first, the first six with the big guy, Moses Jolly, and an amazing boxer, but he's big, he's big, he's heavy. He's not an Usyk. He's like twice as big as Usyk, but he's a southpaw, so he has that power and we could really compete. And then after that, we jumped in with James Branch and he's like 90, 90 kilo, South Pole. So he's like, he's like throwing rapid fire punches like so. And that change within sparring, so doing first six with one and then six with the other. Oh, my God, that was. It was next level. It was like six months of pure hard work.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But it was so cool. It was so cool. And, yeah, it just opened up my mind to a whole different. To a whole different world. And it's for being in combat sports since I was six and after all these years saying, like, okay, this kickboxing chapter within the book is. I think that's done. Let's start a new chapter.

[B]

Well, there's no big kickboxing fight that can compare with what you just did.

[A]

No.

[B]

Exactly. How old are you now? 38.

[A]

37.

[B]

37. Yeah. So at that age, like, you've gotta. You gotta like, look at what you've already accomplished. Yeah. In kickboxing, there's no fight that everyone's calling out for, like, oh, yeah, you know, it's not like badr Hari's at the, in the prime. It's not like one big fight.

[A]

No, no. So there was like, hey, especially with the whole crossover fights being at the biggest attention right now is like, hey, I think this is something we got to look at.

[B]

So after the fight is done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Turkey Alisheek comes into the ring, says, you guys gonna fight again? And it's been a couple months now. So what has happened? What, what, do you talk to anybody? Has your management talked?

[A]

Yeah, they talked because it's been crazy. Like all the, the biggest organizations reached out. Hey, we were looking at this fight, we're looking at that fight. But what about what makes sense for us? And that's where I'm looking at now because like I said, I mean, I believe I'm in the winter of my career, so I'm just looking at big fights.

[B]

Do you have a timeline when you want to get out?

[A]

No, it's not set in stone. But let's, let's see, let's see. But like I said, I feel like I'm so excited. I'm so, I'm so happy and I'm so grateful to be in this position right now. So let's. Yeah. Make history.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's all about legacy, right?

[B]

They you over, but you did win. You got a big win out of it in that you performed way better than anybody expected. And, and then there's also this element where people are rooting for you because they do think you got fucked over.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

They think you were getting fucked over in the scoring and they got. You got fucked with a stoppage. And so it's very marketable. And so what my question though, what I'm asking is, has anybody talked about the rematch other than that one time?

[A]

I knew, I knew this was going to come. So what I want to know is. Oh, he's talking about the rematch.

[B]

That is the fight that is. That's one of the biggest fights in heavyweight boxing right now.

[A]

I know 100%.

[B]

If not though, it's got to be other than Tyson. Fury vs Anthony Joshua is going to be big for England. Right. For them. That's an all time, two of the all time greats in England. Two of the greatest British heavyweight champions ever. A little bit late, but it's a little late. Especially after Anthony Joshua's last fight. That was a scary one. I was like, whoa.

[A]

Yeah. But both of them, yes, both of the fights they, they did, yes. Yeah.

[B]

It's not, they're not the same guys.

[A]

No.

[B]

But Still.

[A]

It's still super excited. Exactly. They're legends. And it's a huge fight that finally got made.

[B]

Other than that, the fight is a rematch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You and Usyk is the fight. That is the fight in the heavyweight division right now. There's no one else out there that's like, you know, there's Moses Aama, who people don't really know about enough.

[A]

Not yet. Yeah, but he's the future. 100%.

[B]

That guy's good.

[A]

Dynamite.

[B]

Dynamite.

[A]

Dynamite. Yeah.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's so slick in how he moves in and out.

[A]

No, that's. That's the next generation. Yeah, he's the future.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he's like our generation's Mike Tyson.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you watch him, he's 21 years old, he's coming up, and you're like, holy shit. He's like, but other than. I mean. But he doesn't have enough experience yet and doesn't have enough name yet for what he really is and what his potential is.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

One day will happen. But for you and for Usyk, that. And for heavyweight boxing, that's the vibe.

[A]

100%. 100%.

[B]

I wish I was a promoter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe we'll get Dana White to get Zufa involved.

[A]

That would be crazy.

[B]

I don't know what is. Does. Does. Is there some sort of a deal that Usyk has with anybody?

[A]

I don't think so, because I believe that is one of the reasons as well why he vacated those belts.

[B]

Because he doesn't want to deal with anybody else.

[A]

No, because when you have those belts, you get forced into fights like, okay, you're mandatory to fight this guy. And that was the. I think for him, the position that he was in fighting me, he could. Like, that was a voluntary defense. And he decided, like, hey, I would love to do this on my terms versus another guy. And I think they looked at it like, this maybe gonna be an easier fight. So this is nice to do. That didn't go the way his plan, but still, I think that's where his mind is at now. Like, he. Like, he's like, I just want to do what I want to do. Which makes so much sense after what he has accomplished.

[B]

After what he's accomplished, he should be able to call his own shots. And I want him to make the most money possible because he is a legend.

[A]

But that's this. That's like you said, this is the fight.

[B]

But the problem is it might be too hard. Yeah, it might be too hard. It might be one of those Ones, which is why maybe, you know, no disrespect to Deontay, but he might be looking at Deontay, thinking Deontay's a little softer.

[A]

Yeah. And we're gonna ride into the sunset.

[B]

Yeah. Go out of a spectacular knockout.

[A]

Yeah. But it's also, then like you said, it's not gonna be the. The big money grab that. Because if you ask me, a lot

[B]

of people gonna pay for that fight.

[A]

No, exactly. They're not gonna be paid that crazy money for it.

[B]

It's not a big pay per view fight. That's the thing. It's like, people will watch it just because he's an all time great. And anytime Usyk fights, people are gonna watch. And Deontay still, he's still the greatest one punch knockout artist in the history of sport.

[A]

Because you never know what's gonna happen

[B]

when he fights is the power. His power is fucking crazy.

[A]

Yeah, he's geeky. Finish you in the 10th.

[B]

Yeah. With one shot coming out of nowhere, he hit Ortiz on the top of the head and put him out. I was like, that is nuts, man.

[A]

Yeah, he's a level of power.

[B]

Different level of power, but again, 40 years old. It's twilight of his career. And this hasn't looked good in the last last few years. But for Usyk to want that fight signals to me that he just, you know, let's just go out with one more payday and that's it. And I don't know if that was his choice, that fight. Maybe that's just the Internet talking. Yeah, maybe that's Deontay Wilder's team wants that fight.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either. But like I said, I got. I got all the options. They gave me all the options, like, hey, you want to fight this guy? I want to fight that.

[B]

So if they talk to you about MMA as well. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I'm keeping the options open.

[B]

But you're leaning towards boxing.

[A]

Yeah, because I've been in the boxing game now and I've enjoyed it so much. And that's like, for me, like I just said, like, I came from kickboxing, from being 6 years old and doing it for over 30 years, and then now getting really into boxing. I was always boxing, but I was boxing to kickboxing. That's a totally different game. I had to rewire everything that was in there. So now that I did it and I performed the way that I performed, I was like, yeah, this was fun.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp you've probably heard about BetterHelp before, but maybe you haven't heard from those who have actually used BetterHelp. That feedback can tell you everything you need to know. Go to betterhelp.com reviews and check out the feedback from hundreds of people saying how much they love this service. It's easy to see why. To get started, all you have to do is answer a few questions. You'll get matched up with a therapist based on your needs, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if better help is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com jre that's better. H E L P

[A]

I really enjoyed that also.

[B]

That is the glory division, no pun intended, of the heavyweight division is the heavyweight division, or of. Of boxing, rather, is the heavyweight division. The heavyweight division is where the real money's at. Always. Yeah, that is the baddest.

[A]

It's always been there.

[B]

It's always been that way. And for you, after that performance, I gotta think there's a lot of options for you.

[A]

Yeah, like I said, we. They threw so many stuff at us, but we're like, hey, we take our time, look at the different options. And of course, still His Excellency has our first preference because they gave us the opportunity right when. Yeah, we had, we had.

[B]

What was it like to fight in front of the pyramids? That's crazy.

[A]

Too insane. Outside, it was insane. Joe. It's like, let me tell you another story. So that happened also while I was in this camp. It's not a nice, nice thing to say, but my mother passed away during the moment I was in camp for this fight. And well, that happened. It was, it was hard. And then we had to clean out her house and then finally doing that and cleaning everything. And then we come by a bunch of pictures and yeah, you can see it on my Instagram. And then I see the pictures of my mother 30 years prior being in front of the pyramids. It's like, wow, why do I see these pictures now knowing that this fight is in front of the pyramids? It was mind blowing. And so for me, it was like full circle going back. I, like, literally made the same pictures my mother made 30 years prior before the fight, in front of the swings, in front of the pyramids. And that was like goosebumps. So for me, having that whole experience being in front of the pyramids, doing that was like full circle.

[B]

When did they come up with that idea to have you Guys fight in front of the pyramids.

[A]

Well.

[B]

Well, the way they look at that. Yeah, that's crazy. That really is crazy. Wow.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

That really is wild.

[A]

Yeah. Still. I don't know. Still, like, of course, of course.

[B]

Yeah. So when did they come up with the idea of having a heavyweight title fight in front of the pyramids?

[A]

Yeah. So the communication is always, like, really, like, straightforward, and they don't say too much. So the way it began, like, the first thing I got was just like a WhatsApp picture. We're thinking about this location. That was the thing. Because first I saw the picture, I opened it. Oh, it's the pyramids. Nice. And then after that, I looked at it, we're thinking about this location. I'm like, okay, but how are you gonna do that? Like, to me, it didn't make too much sense. And then afterwards I said, like, they sent me a video, like, yeah, we're gonna do. Gonna be outside. And it's like, oh, my God, it's gonna be outside in front of the pyramids. It's, like, mind blowing. And that was also a thing. That's what I said. Like, it was like the Rumble in the Jungle, right? But then with that being said, what people thought, like, what. What is this guy talking about? Is he putting himself in the same category as. As. As Ali and Foreman or whatever? What. What is he. No, that's not what I'm saying. I mean, about the location. I never put myself in that. Everybody that knows me, like, I'm. I'm super humble, so I never would. Would say something like that. But that's what I meant. Like, it was something like the rumbling in the jungle. Because we're talking about the location, right?

[B]

Like, the location was a part of the experience.

[A]

Exactly. It was. It was insane, Joe. Like, like. And then for me, they asked me, like, rico, can we ask you to do, like, a certain choreography? Okay. I don't want to do too much. I want to focus on fighting Usyk. So. Okay. Only thing you got to do is, like, punch the ground, and then the ground is going to crack open. And then we're going to, like, for the first time that evening, boom. We're going to turn on the pyramids. That's cool. That sounds good. I'll do that. So I did that. So I punched the ground. I turn around, and for the first time, we see, like, the ground cracking open and the lights shine onto the pyramids. Wow. Wow. It was a goosebump moment.

[B]

Was that your first time being at the pyramids?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So that's why this whole picture and this whole thing was for me was like a full circle. Like, wow. It was such a special moment, such a special event. And then. Okay, then I turn around. Then my whole theme song comes up, you know. You know how I run to the ring, but. But that wasn't like a real catwalk. And during the day, I already went to see, like, what they expected from me and like, how I'm gonna. And there was like some small steps, like down like five or six. But then I hear my song, I do my thing, and I do. And I run to the ring. But I was like, walking straight onto these steps. I'm like, am I gonna take these steps fast? I'm like, no, him. I'll just jump down. I just decided that at the moment. And then I landed. It was like, oh, this was higher than I expected. And I just kept on running. It's like, just think about, like, maybe I just like sprained my ankle or something, like jumping from the crazy. Like that. Oh, my God. It was so funny because afterwards the cameraman. You woke up to me, he's like, I almost missed you. You were jumping down. Like I was looking at you, looking at you, like, whoa, you were gone.

[B]

That was wild.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was wild. It was outside and it was. The temperature was actually was pretty good.

[B]

What was the temperature?

[A]

I think it was like 20. 20 degrees.

[B]

So that's Celsius. What is that? It's like 70 something.

[A]

It's real swirly in that.

[B]

In the real mid part. What's that, Jamie? I mean, 100, you know, is boiling and 212 is boiling for Fahrenheit, but like 0 and 30.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, somewhere in the middle. Put it in the. I will. Here, I'll do it right here. Have this on the screen.

[A]

I can't.

[B]

What is 20 degrees Celsius in Fahrenheit? 68. Oh, perfect.

[A]

So that was. That was nice. So you're like, ah. And I run and then, whoop. I just jumped down.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

No, it was so cool.

[B]

Did it feel any different than any other fight you've had before? No, no, we've had so much. What is. How many kickboxing fights have you had?

[A]

75 something.

[B]

75. That's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy.

[A]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was.

[B]

That's a giant, huge advantage of having so much combat sports experience.

[A]

Yeah, but. But where everybody was leaning towards was like, like, this guy has won professional boxing fight. What is he doing there? This doesn't make any sense. Like, guys, I've been in and around the ring for quite a while.

[B]

I have a bunch of friends of mine that are just boxing fans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were talking all kinds of

[A]

like, you know, also, I had so many apologies. I had so many rico, so many famous boxers. And I be like, I didn't know what you were capable of, but damn, this was crazy. Like, oh, thank you. Appreciate that.

[B]

Quite honestly, I didn't know what you're gonna be capable of either, because I knew you as a kickboxer were one of the greatest of all time. But as a boxer, I hadn't seen. I'm like, you're taking away one of his biggest weapons, which is the low kicks. I mean, your low kicks are phenomenal. You have tree trunk legs, you know, So I was like, that's a giant weapon that's removed from him. Like, we'll see. He's also fighting one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest boxer of all time in the heavyweight division. But to have that kind of a performance and to do it the way you did it, it's like, man, it was. It was amazing to watch. It was to. As a person who likes watching combat sports, is one of the most exciting things I'd ever watched.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. But for me, I think what worked in my advantage the most was if you look at kickboxing and it's logical, like, physically, it's like you're so square on. And everybody thought that was what I was gonna do.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

But I was boxing always to kickbox. So Peter Fury has been telling me to do get more on the side for years. But how, as a kickboxer, am I gonna be more on the side? They're gonna kick my leg off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I can't block anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was constantly trying to find the balance within that. And now Peter was super happy because now, finally, he could teach me boxing to box right.

[B]

Proper stance every time.

[A]

Go more to the side. More to the side because you're too square on. Go back. So I needed the six months. So much hard work we had to put into that.

[B]

Did you find yourself, like, having to correct it it mentally, or did it get to a point where it was instinctive? The stance and the positioning, we had to.

[A]

I had to definitely correct, and they had to tell me.

[B]

But were you correcting in the fight? In the fight, was it down? Was it instinctive?

[A]

It was.

[B]

You got in it.

[A]

We got it down. But in within the whole prep, it was.

[B]

So you really do need the six months for that.

[A]

100%. 100%. So for me, this whole experience of getting into boxing, like, it was perfect. It was perfect for everybody around it. It was. It was really terrible, of course, where Anthony Joshua went through and everything, so that the most horrific thing ever. But for me, getting into the transition to boxing, I needed that time to get like a clean transition. And that's why I was super happy with the six months and, and the change of fights. I believe, like, the Anthony Georgia fight is still a big fight that we could do. But, yeah, getting the opportunity to fight for a boxing heavyweight title is on another level. Big, of course.

[B]

Oh, yeah, it's gigantic. And also, I've got to think that from that experience, you're even better now.

[A]

100%.

[B]

You have to be better. You just. We're in there with the best guy ever.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. But the funny thing is like. Like, that's why I made the meme of Jim Carrey, because everybody was like, he's moving pretty strange. What is he doing? But we knew that that thing would work versus Usyk. But we got so many more tools in the toolbox that we can pull out, because in another fight versus a different fighter, we're gonna show a whole different Rico again. But if we're gonna fight Usyk again, it's gonna be slightly different, but it's still like, basically the strategy works well.

[B]

You gave him so many things to think about constantly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was no time to set.

[A]

No.

[B]

There was always chaos. There was always hands moving. There was always, your body's moving, you're moving forward, you're shuffling around. It was so much activity that his mind has to constantly process all these different things.

[A]

But normally that is what he does.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's. If you look at the whole heavyweight division, all his previous fights, he was in control. He was showing them so much. And if you have something to look at the whole time, it's like, it keeps you. It gets your mind out of what you want to do because you're constantly anticipating what your opponent is doing. So that's what we try to do. We try to take that from him.

[B]

What were you doing for conditioning? I just want to know what your conditioning is like in general, because you are such a big guy and to be that big and have that kind of cardio is very extraordinary.

[A]

Do I agree? Do I agree? Maybe partially. I agree with that because to be honest, at the top, Joe, everybody works hard, right? That's What I do, I just work incredibly hard. But I believe that mentally, when you get tired or when your body gives signals of starting to feel tired, how do you cope with that in your mind? That's where I think the biggest difference is. Because if at the moment I feel I'm getting tired, then I know my opponent is feeling fucked.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Because I know how hard I work to be fit and to do everything possible to be in the best shape ever. Because if you look at training schedules or whatever, from my schedule versus another guy's schedule, I find it hard to believe that I'm training so much harder than all the other top guys. Yeah, that's my opinion. I find that hard to believe. Leave. So, for me, it's just like a mental thing. As soon as I start feeling it, like, okay, now the fight starts.

[B]

Well, there's certain. Certain people have genetics that lean towards better cardio and conditioning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like in the ufc, Cain Velasquez was famous for that.

[A]

He's a monster.

[B]

He just had insane cardio for a heavyweight. But for you, are you what I'm getting at that. How much time are you spending on strength and conditioning versus skill work?

[A]

I think it's pretty balanced. It's pretty balanced. But for example, everything I do is based on endurance. So even the power, I don't have to do £300 bench press. Right. I don't care. I know I'm already big and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm, I'm. I. I know I'm not the hardest puncher within the game. I don't have to be the hardest puncher in the game. But as soon as I hit, I'm still heavyweight, still like 260 pounds behind it. So when I hit you, you're gonna feel it. So that's how we approach it. Just lean into what works for you. I'm not the strongest puncher. I also don't believe I'm the most skillful, but I'm definitely the hardest worker. And that's what we try to emphasize, like, just keep working, keep working hard. So we, yeah, the pace is high. We can show a lot. We can do a lot.

[B]

Do you have a guy that's just a strength and conditioning guy? So what kind of work were you doing? What kind of things are you doing?

[A]

You want to know it all, right? Yeah, I want to know it all. I do a full body. Full body workout three times a week. And just a lot of reps. A lot of reps.

[B]

So this is more strength than conditioning, or is it both? At the same time.

[A]

It's both at the same time, because what we do is we have a. For example, we do chest, and I do like, 20 reps. Just the beginning 20 reps. Then we get to another exercise, and then again, I do 20. 20 reps. So we do 40 reps each. And those reps are going to go up the closer we get to the fight. But the rest between the exercises is just 30 seconds. And then we change exercise. We go to a different muscle group, and then we go back to chest, and then again we do 20, 20, 30 seconds. Okay. We go to a different muscle group, then again, 30 seconds. So it's. The pace is incredibly high, and I think that whole Training takes maybe 35, 40 minutes max.

[B]

Yeah, that's got to be a giant factor because I don't know how many people are doing that that way. You know, a lot of guys are doing strength and or conditioning. They're running, they're hitting the bag, they're doing different things.

[A]

Yeah. But for me, like, I'm not focusing on. When I'm focusing on strength, I don't want to be big. I feel like I'm already pretty big. And the more muscles I have, I have to just carry them with me. And all those muscles, they want and they need oxygen. So then my heart is going to be, like, pumping just to get that oxygen there. No, I just focus on that. Boom. And then I start with 20, and then I get to 22s, and then I get to 24s, and then with the same exact weight. So you get so much stronger at the same time. You get so much fitter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that combination just. I don't know, it's just. It's just been working for us throughout the years.

[B]

So are you using apps and heart rate monitors and things along those lines? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

These heart rate monitors, the running in different. Different ways. We do the interval running. We do the endurance running. Sometimes you just run for an hour, and then you do the interval running.

[B]

Is this mostly treadmill work?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, my. My body's. Yeah. Been through a lot.

[B]

Right. So running on the concrete, running outside, rough on the knees.

[A]

No, it's. Yeah, I don't believe it's smart. So I have this special treadmill, which I'm. I can take some of my own weight off, so I have this big balloon around me.

[B]

Oh, okay. I know what you're talking about. I've seen those before.

[A]

Yeah. So I got that since I had the ACL surgery on the knee, and ever since I've just been using it and I love it. I love it. So I can do the. The run here. Running experience. And because I love running because it's so hard. It's so heavy on the body. And mentally it's so hard. But then I don't have the full force on my joints, like.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

Just like. Yeah, it's not good.

[B]

Well, I mean, you gotta think of all those years of leg kicks, leg

[A]

kicks and oh, my God, especially when I got the acl. I was like, oh, my God, how

[B]

long ago did that happen?

[A]

Happened three years ago.

[B]

Three years ago?

[A]

Yeah. I thought. I thought I was done. So much pain. So much pain. I was like, why? I'm like, getting close to the end of my career now. This happens, like. And then getting back from that within six months, that was like. Because I had a bucket handle meniscus. And at the age of acl, I

[B]

had exactly the same thing.

[A]

Yeah, it was terrible.

[B]

Did they remove the meniscus? No, no, they just stitched it up, stitch it back.

[A]

So the first.

[B]

They know that now.

[A]

Yeah, but the first six weeks you're not allowed to put too much pressure on it.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

But, oh, my God, they used to

[B]

think that you should cut the meniscus out. Now they've done studies and they find that there's no benefit to that. Of course not.

[A]

Because it's your meniscus right between the bones or else it's just bone on bone.

[B]

It's exactly.

[A]

They said, especially with me being so heavy and so big, like within 10 years, you're gonna have trouble if we're gonna take it out.

[B]

Yeah, I have trouble on my left leg because that very reason they took a big piece of it out when I had the bucket handle tear. And it just. That that area hurts all the time. Yeah, just. It is what it is. They do cadaver grafts will take a cadaver meniscus and put it in place. Yeah, they take a piece of meniscus out of a dead guy, but it's. It doesn't always work. And, you know, you really have to be young for it to work more effectively. I guess they say that, but that also could be dependent upon what you're doing with it. Like, are you using peptides? Are you using stem cells? Are you using hyperbaric chamber? Are you using red light therapy? Are you using all the different modalities that could help you heal quicker? But yeah, they do. I know a guy who got it done.

[A]

You definitely use everything because you haven't Aged a day since we did the last show.

[B]

I use everything, bro.

[A]

I don't know how you do it, so. But after the show, you gotta give me the recipe.

[B]

Well, I probably do a lot of the things you do, because I know you do cold plunge every day.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I do that every morning and I do a lot of sauna work, but I do a lot of red light therapy. I do that at least four or five times a week. I try to do it. I have a hyperbaric chamber. I do that a lot. I try to do that as many days a week as I've done that two days in a row now. I like to do it three, four days a week. If when I'm really feeling better is when I'm doing it three or four days a week. And just constantly training like you have to. Can't get out of shape.

[A]

You do it. All right. You do.

[B]

Yeah. You can't get out of there. You get out of shape, you can't get back in shape. But if you stay in shape, it's remarkable how much you could keep it going. Look at Bernard Hopkins. I mean, he was performing at a world class, world championship level at 50 years old as a boxer, which is nuts.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

And it's just because of his discipline, you know, never got fat, never got out of shape, always stayed in the gym. Gym. Never ate bad food.

[A]

Also, mentally, it keeps you just imbalance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just being bad. Because that's what I believe. Why just training in general for everybody is so good? Because that's me time.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's the time that you're working on what is good for you and for your mental health. And you're not thinking about, hey, I'm. I'm at work, I'm making money to provide for the family, or I'm doing groceries for this. No, I'm in the gym. Gym. And I'm working on me. I can turn your phone off.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Listen to some music and just, like, work on your body and your mental health. It's. It's so good.

[B]

And the effects of it afterwards, the alleviation of anxiety and pressure and just how good you feel. The endorphins.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just wish people that don't do it could understand that. Because so many people, they just have an aversion to the hard work. They have an aversion to, like, getting there. They just like, oh, I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it. But if you just do it, you'll feel so much better. And then everybody wants to talk about discipline. And discipline is very important. It's the most important thing, probably. But almost equally important is momentum. And once you have a few good days in a row, the discipline is not as hard anymore. Now you have momentum.

[A]

Yeah, 100%, you're right. But the thing is, what happens same with the cold plunge that we do multiple times a week or almost every day is like, some days the same as going to work or whatever. You just wake up and you just do not feel like doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then the discipline comes in. Like, I do not feel like doing it, but I am going to do it. Because if I can do it on the days that I do not feel like doing it, every other day is going to be easy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's the. For me, what I felt like. Like I was just sharing with you, like, what I find so hard, for example, with. With the losing and that. That the. The mistakes that I made. That's what I've been doing, like, to be honest, my whole life. That's what I'm trying to work on now. It's like everything that happened in my life, like, it's been some crazy. Like, my mother passed away within this preparation, and I do not take the time to really take that. Take it in, take it in. Like, what just happened. And I had the same thing with my father was like, right before the Ben Siddiq fight. And I just take it and I continue, because what I do, I take it and it's a certain emotional pain, and I use that to put it in physical pain so I can use it as fuel for what I do in the ring and whatever, for. As my job. But I feel like personally, in relationships and just in general, in just living, I think that's not the way to cope with it. So that's what I'm trying to say.

[B]

So it's very difficult to be balanced if you also want to be excellent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you want to be the best, you know, if you want to be and accomplish what you've accomplished, you have to be obsessed. And if you have to be obsessed, it's almost impossible to be balanced. It's almost impossible to have a balanced life and also be obsessed on a goal.

[A]

No. 100%. But I don't feel like it's so much about the balance, but it's just not the way to. To cope with life in general. Next to being an athlete and being a fighter, which is a big part of what you do. But just like, in general, like, okay, how do you cope with things, especially now with this, for example, with this loss? It's like, how do I find a way to give this loss and a way of, like, okay, that I can work with it without, like, feeling frustrated or like, oh, I got robbed, or whatever. Right. So. And I feel like that's getting better. So I watched my mom's funeral back, like, I think, like, four or five weeks ago for the very first time. So she passed away in February. That's when I watched it back for the first time, just to take it all in again and again. I went, like, all the way through it, and I'm like, okay, I need to. To do that more to get. I don't know if it's balanced or just. I don't know, just to get, like, a way of feeling like, yeah, I can. I can take that. That emotion in, because now I just. Every time, I'm just pushing that emotion away and just using it as fuel to be a fighter and be the best version of me within the ring. But, like, as a. As a person, I don't feel like it's a healthy way to just, like, keep pushing everything. No, certainly pushing it down.

[B]

Well, it's great that you recognize that, though, and that will definitely help you as you transition from being a fighter to being a retired fighter and doing whatever else you want to do. You have so much time left in your life to do anything.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Recognizing that that is an issue is huge for you, for your ability to move on, to do other things.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

That's a giant struggle for a lot of fighters. The struggle, especially fighters that have competed at your level, you know, the glory, the excitement, the chaos of it all is so huge that to step away from that, it's very, very difficult for a lot of guys.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I'm so happy. And I also believe that what gave me this is that I found my new passion within acting. But so being on. On set with Jake Gyllenhaal, with Dave Bautista, with Eldis Hodge, and those guys being so excellent at what they're doing as actors, and they're just talking with them about this, I think that also gave me more and more that realization of, hey, instead of just, like, pushing it away, I can use those emotions and that feeling to be an actor at a certain point. So. And I always said, like, I just. Oh, just kept pushing it away. I don't want to feel it. I don't want to feel it. As soon as I feel it I turn it into physical pain. So I know I get to be a better version of me within the ring. I hear what you're saying, but if you want to get into acting, it's good to feel because as soon as you feel it's even better, it's going to transition even better on camera because then we see that you're feeling something and if it comes out of your own experience, it's even better. It hurts still, but you can turn it into something positive. And that's where I'm really happy about, like, after being a fighter, I really found my new passion within acting because it's so much fun. That's great. So much fun being on set and. Yeah. Being great at something else.

[B]

Yeah, that's great that you found something else you're excited about. That's really important. Very important. So how many movies have you done?

[A]

I did a few. Did a few. I think like a handful. And I think the most recognizable things I did was Den of Thieves, Pantera, den of Thieves 2.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

With Gerard and O' Shea Jackson Jr. And the last one, Roadhouse. So. And of course I've been, I've been talking with Jason like for quite some time now to do something together. So we're looking at different, different options. Like, hey, we could do this. But he's like, he has a certain focus on what he, what he sees. Like, hey, Rico, I want you to. To do like this type of movie and I want you to be this type of character because I don't want you to die and I want you to do this. So it's. Yeah. For him being. Yeah. So experienced within that world, I just.

[B]

Well, also, him coming as an athlete as well.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

He was a world class diver, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's a, he's a martial arts fanatic. He loves it. Yeah, he loves it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So that's. Yeah, that's. That's amazing. So. And then, yeah, telling him that, like, hey, I loved X. He comes to my fight. I visit him on set. Like, hey, I just look at what he does and how he does it. It's. Yeah, it's out of this world. It's the next level.

[B]

Well, that's so good that you have something that you're really excited about as you retire, like transitioning into that and that you already have some success with that.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

100%.

[B]

You have to. Dave Bautista is another one. Like, right. Like, huge success in wwe. Went on to do that and now he's done a ton of movies.

[A]

Yeah. And he's. He's really good.

[B]

Yeah, he's really. He's really a very good actor.

[A]

Yeah, it's not just like, oh, he's an athlete that tried to do some acting. No, he's. He's a really good actor, and he showed so many different sides of himself.

[B]

He was great in that. Was it the Glass Onion? Was that what it was called? Yeah, the. What is it? Yeah, knives out. Glass onion. Right? That's what it was called. He was great in that. Yeah, he's great. He's. I mean, again, it's like, you see these big guys and you say, oh, they're big, and they're just gonna play a brute. But no, it's like he's a human. Yeah, human beings have depth. You could do a lot of different things.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So he's got a. He's losing weight now. Just, like, show.

[A]

He's like, yeah, he looks amazing now. Yeah, he's still big.

[B]

He's still 200. I mean, like, oh, he's so small. He's 240. He's huge.

[A]

No, he's huge. And he's in great shape. He's in great shape. I mean, he's the nicest guy as well.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

He's the nicest guy. So we had. No, we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. So it was such an honor to be there on set with them and on such a big production. Like, wow. He was looking at.

[B]

So how do you balance that out? Like, now that you. Like, as you said, you're in the winter of your career, Would you accept a movie role right now if you knew that. That a big fight could potentially happen?

[A]

No.

[B]

So you have to be careful right now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. For me, it's like I'm focused on finishing that. And as soon as. As I. Then I have a movie, like, okay, but then I'm not gonna do a fight that's. It's gonna be hard. So. And especially within the other one, I didn't really get the option because I was on Roadhouse, and then I got the Anthony Joshua fight. Fight. But back then, I was just the kickboxer, right? The kickboxer world champion. But that didn't really say too much. So I was in the underdog position. I was in the passenger seat. Now I show what I can do. So now I got a little more like, yo, guys, I got a movie. So can we push the fight a little bit further so I have the time to get ready for it. Right. So that's. That's better now. But. But for me, I would never blend those two together or like, hey, okay, let me finish this movie real quick and then go straight into a fight camp. That's going to be like two, two and a half months. I need a good, like, clean four months to get ready for a fight of this magnitude. Right. So

[B]

when you're talking about these different conversations that people have had with you, is the door completely closed to the ufc? Because I know that they did contact you and you were talking. They were talking about you fighting and that they were going to try to do that Derrick Lewis fight. I was excited about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the money was nowhere near, I'm sure the money.

[A]

I believe that. That the gap is even bigger now. Yeah, sure. So I think that's. That's where. That's where the actual problem is, just to be completely transparent. So for me, it doesn't make. Make any sense to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Go around the bush or whatever and go backwards. No.

[B]

Financially, yeah.

[A]

If. If they would want to do something, it really has to make sense. But, yeah, we all know that. Yeah, that's not really, like, how the UFC works, so I don't believe that that is an option.

[B]

Well, it's interesting because their heavyweight division is so. Have you ever worked with Tom Aspinall?

[A]

Of course. He's a very good friend of mine. Oh, really?

[B]

I've seen video of you guys training.

[A]

Yeah, we trained so much already for, like, I think, close to 10 years.

[B]

Man, he got a bad deal. He got really over for that, that fight. You know, the way people got upset at him for stopping the fight with those eye pokes, that, to me, that drove me crazy. Like, what do you expect the guy to do? He's defending the heavyweight title. He get poked in the eyes and he can't fucking see. And he's had two eye surgery since then.

[A]

And he's the nicest guy. He's the nicest guy, and he works incredibly hard, and he would never, never. Even though. Because I understand where it comes from, from the people to a certain extent, because they feel like, hey, Gane was doing so good in the beginning of the fight, but it was just the beginning of the fight. It was just like the first round or whatever. So it's possible that, hey, because of some ring rust, you have to get into it, and then the fight ain't over till it's over. Right. So you can have an opinion about that. The first round and I get an eye poke. Oh, now he's gonna stop because he knew he was behind or whatever. He would never, never in whatever world do that because he has.

[B]

No. That. The eye poke is not. He was knuckle deep in his eye.

[A]

Yeah. It was like Gone.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, Cyril Gone has a history of doing that. He's also.

[A]

And definitely, I truly believe, because I know Cyril as well. He's also a very nice guy. And I do not believe he's doing that intentionally to. With people or whatever.

[B]

It's just a bad instinct that keeps happening.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe it's a habit or whatever.

[B]

You. You're doing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're running right into eyeballs. It's just they. They need to stop doing it, you know, I mean, there's. There's a bunch of different conversations about how to stop it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of them is change the gloves. You don't need open fingers like that. They don't have. You don't need that for grappling. No. They could cover the tip of it like a mitten, you know, and there's. There's a way to do that where it would probably eliminate a lot of the eye pokes. Another one is there's a guy named Trevor Whitman from Onyx Sports. He's Justin Gaethje's trainer who makes a much better glove.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And his gloves glove, your hand is in this position all the time instead of the UFC glove. UFC glove, your hands like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pull it down to tighten up the fist. And this in with Trevor's gloves, it's curved like this. So this is a natural. So you would, like, when Muay Thai fighters like Cyril Gone, they frame off like that all the time. Right? You know that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when you have those UFC gloves, you're framing off like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's when you're running into eye pokes, you know, so they try to tell you, you keep your fingers up, which is great. But sometimes it doesn't work that way.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You can't if you're leaning away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I don't think Cyril Gone's a dirty fighter. I just think he's trying to finish fights. Like Alex Pereira thought he was dirty for hitting him in the back of the head. And I watched the fight over again to watch it, and what I saw is Alex is moving, Cyril's trying to hit him. And sometimes when that happens, some of the shots are going to win on

[A]

the back of the head. But is it the referee that needs to say, like, hey, stop it. Yeah, we're fighting. So you gotta try and punch whatever you get.

[B]

It's hard because you're also like. He might not have the best position to see it. Cause it's chaos. And also like, if you're trying to hit like a guy right here and then his head moves and then you hit the back of the head, whose fault is that? Is that your fault? That you're supposed to pull back? You're in the middle of a shot. It's very difficult to stop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's hard to say, but when you look at his performance in that fight against Al Pere, it was fucking extraordinary, man. He'd. We were. Is a group chat I have with a few friends of mine, Dean Thomas and Matt, Sarah and John Rollo. We do a podcast together and we were just talking about how basketball is a phenomenal base for some of these guys because. Cyril gone. I'll show you. I'll send you this video. I'll send it to James. Cyril gone can't move, man. And some of the.

[A]

He's light. Light. Feed it as well.

[B]

And he's £250.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's. The way he moves is so extraordinary. And I think some of that is because of basketball because. Yeah, well, no, it's not that one. This is a brand new video. He's playing against the NBA center here. Oh, man. There's multiple videos of it then. Because he's. I mean, he's pretty sick. Yeah, but that's one of them.

[A]

That was. I was with him. We did a little moving. Moving around together on den of Thieves 2.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

He was. He was in there. We were in a scene together. So that was fun.

[B]

It's just having a guy.

[A]

He's such a nice guy. He's like so light, so light. He moves around so like.

[B]

And so hard to hit, man. He doesn't. He's never been in trouble in the fight. I mean, he got finished by Jon Jones, but that was a submission. And Francis Ngannou just beat him by grappling. But he's never been like rocked or staggered. He hardly.

[A]

No, because his movement is so extraordinary, especially for. For a big guy. But that's why I believe. But Tom has that as well. Yes, he has that move. He is like.

[B]

Well, his blitz is extraordinary.

[A]

His.

[B]

His ability to cover distance is insane. And he's got one punch knockout power

[A]

against so explosive like, boom. He can. That's. I believe he can. But he can be a good boxer. But he can also be a good kickboxer and he's a good mma Fighter. He's so all round. Because when he. He comes to kick, when he came to kickbox, wow.

[B]

I just hate that fans reacted the way they reacted. And it's the casual ones, it's the shitheads. You know, I. For me, I was like, God, you got to give the guy some grace. He got his eye poked out. I mean, he literally was knuckle deep in his eyes. To, For. For him, to. For anyone to think that he should be fighting with one eye like that and who cares? Keep fighting. That's insane. He got fouled. It's not because of a punch. It's not because of he got kicked or an elbow. It's a foul. And so, no, the fight should have been stopped the way it was, and that's that everybody should understand that it's not his fault. It was his opponent's fault.

[A]

But how he got to this was like, because of the whole deal, he has, like. How much sense does it make for me to. To get into the ufc? Because Conor got, like, a great deal now for his last fight.

[B]

No, for you, boxing makes the most sense, especially at this point in your life financially. And, you know, for. For Tom, I mean, he. Look, he has a potential career in boxing as well. And now that Eddie Hearn is managing him, which is very exciting, because, you know, Matchroom being behind him, he's going to have a gigantic hype machine, gigantic promotion. Like, I think it's huge. And that they're at odds with the ufc. Like, for me, I care about the fighters making the most money possible.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that's how he's going to make the most money possible.

[A]

Yeah, but like you said, that's what I believe. Like, all the fighters deserve. The fighters that bring in the viewers that are exciting. Yeah. They should earn a little bit more. Right. That is. Everything should be in balance, 100%.

[B]

And that's. I mean, this is where Turkiy Al Sheikh has really ramped up the game, really raised the bar, because the. He's getting guys to fight that didn't want to fight each other.

[A]

No, exactly.

[B]

And he's like, how about this amount?

[A]

Exactly. Okay, okay, there we go. But then. But that's how we. We got the biggest fight. But next to that, with him giving me the opportunity as well, what he does is he thinks outside of the box, and that's what I love so much about what he does, because we had also the Francis Nagano Tyson Fury fight, and that was also, like, crazy, right? I don't know about that.

[B]

Zero professional boxing matches for Francis.

[A]

Exactly. So that decision was also a little bit controversial.

[B]

Very controversial.

[A]

I don't know. So. But that's why I like what he does. He thinks outside of the box, like, hey, I like this idea. Yeah. Let's just try it.

[B]

Terence Crawford versus Canelo Alvarez. That's way outside the box.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got a guy moving up two weight classes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To fight an all time great. I mean, and a lot of people thought Canelo's too big. Canelo's too big.

[A]

Wow. That was an amazing fight.

[B]

Oh, my God. Terence Crawford is one of the greatest of all time.

[A]

100%.

[B]

He is so smooth. It's so good. When he was just pap, pap, pap, pap, rip and doing that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. It was amazing to watch. To watch a guy that's that skillful and have those skills and move them up multiple weight classes.

[A]

Yeah. Incredible.

[B]

And pulled off against a guy like Canelo.

[A]

And again, everybody said, like, oh, he's not gonna. He's not gonna have a shot because Canelo is going to be too big. As soon as he. As he hit him, he's going to get rocked. And he's like, no, I think that was. That was incredible. And they were. They were all at the fight. It's pyramids, by the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was a pretty good.

[B]

Also, Terrence is very smart. And Terence prepared for that fight for like a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And put on some weight, but not too much. You know, he did a lot of weightlifting, but just enough. But just also he was healthier because he didn't have to cut so much weight. No, that's a thing to take into consideration. You got a guy who's cutting all that weight to make all the different weight classes that he was champion and all the way up to 154, and all of a sudden he doesn't have to cut weight. Well, guess what? He's probably walking around 176, 177 anyway.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

So it was probably a better performance for him physically. He probably felt much better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's also used to faster guys, and he's so light on his feet.

[A]

100%. 100%. That was so exciting. So that's what. Yeah. What he does. He makes the fights that otherwise would have been made.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. And I think I respect him for that so much, and I'm thankful for that as well. So let's see what he's gonna pull out of the hat this time for me.

[B]

Well, I mean, and for sure, now people are going to be Excited about you fighting again. And it's even more marketable, by far, than the first fight was. I just hope it's a rematch. I really do, because I think that's the just fight to have. That's the correct fight to have a rematch. When a fight is that close and ends that controversially and then the judging is the scoring is that bad, the right thing to do is to have a rematch.

[A]

Yeah. And then in a different. Like I said, in a different environment, in a different situation.

[B]

Vegas or Madison Square Garden?

[A]

I gotta be honest, Joe, they're both still on the bucket list. Yeah, I fought in New York, but it was like in, I don't know, in a ballroom, something. I don't even remember what it was, but It's, I think, 2012 or something. So, yeah, Madison's great. Garden and Vegas are still on the bucket list.

[B]

Look, Vegas is great, but mad. Madison Square Garden is iconic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's something about being in that building. Every time we have fights, we do a UFC in that building. It's like, wow, we're in the Garden. Like that. That is a special place to be.

[A]

There's so many things that happened there. Concerts and basketball, everything. Yeah.

[B]

So many concerts, so many fights, so many everything. It's just. And it's also in New York City. And as much as New York City is crazy, and it's like, it's beep beep and Hong Kong and you. It's still New York City. And to have a great world championship fight in New York City is something special. There's something. You feel different. When they say live from Madison Square

[A]

Garden, you're like, oh, yeah. You feel it. Yeah.

[B]

You know, when you're in the room, when we have fights there, being in the room feels different.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. But that's also one of the things. Things that he did a fight on Times Square. I know who thinks of that. And the thing is, for him, I believe that when you hear something and you say, nah, that's not possible, I think that's the right trigger. That's exactly the trigger he needs. Like, I'll make it possible. I'll make it happen. That's the same with the pyramids and then with the Times Square. He's like, nah, I don't think that's gonna happen.

[B]

Well, they have a bottomless bank account.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the things. Like, they could just.

[A]

They make things possible.

[B]

They just throw so much money at guys, like. And that is exciting. I mean, that's something that boxing has needed because It's. Look, it took so long to get Floyd Mayweather to fight Manny Pacquiao. Yeah, right. That was a gigantic fight. It took forever, and arguably Manny was past his prime when they wound up actually fighting again, which. Which pissed a lot of people off. If they had been around back then, if Turkey Alisha had been around back then, they. In Riyadh season has been around. Had been around back then, they probably would have made that happen when they're in their prime.

[A]

100%, that's what.

[B]

That's what boxing needs. That's what MMA needs. That's what everybody needs. The UFC does that in mma. They kind of force guys to fight. You can't get away from it.

[A]

No, only the payday is different, but.

[B]

Yes, but. But, you know, at the highest levels, guys like Conor, they're making similar money, but it's just that that needs to change in terms of. It has to be like, it has to be enticing enough that you're going to get the best athletes that realize, like, hey, I don't have to go into basketball. I don't have to go. What I really like is fighting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, and the. And there's enough money in fighting now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like everything else.

[A]

But that's the problem, like we just talked about, we started off with, with the whole kickboxing. See, there's no money to be made. Right.

[B]

That is the problem.

[A]

So.

[B]

Well, I mean, figure that out because, you know, they're. They're dedicated to entering into the MMA space now and they just merged with the pfl.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I think is very exciting because I think competition is good. Competition is great. And the more competition, the better. And definitely better for the fighters to have options.

[A]

100.

[B]

And they've got guys over there in the PFL now that are world class, man. They've got some world class fighters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's exciting. It's exciting to have it.

[A]

Just.

[B]

They just need to get bigger in terms of the public's recognition.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So right now everybody thinks of UFC being mma. Ufc. And it's like PFL for the average casuals. Like what? Who's that?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. What do they do? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think, to be honest, Joe, if we look at 10 years ago, combat sports is at its all time high. Boxing, mma, kickboxing, everything is like going through the roof.

[B]

Everything is bigger now.

[A]

I think we're in it. We're in a very blessed position.

[B]

Well, 20 years ago, nobody even knew what MMA was. 21 years ago was the first Ultimate Fighter season one 2005.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was really when MMA kind of made it onto the map in terms of the general public understanding of it from the Ultimate Fighter and that Stefan Bonner, Forest Griffin fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you could see a world where kickboxing could enter into that, you know, 10 years from now be in the same, a similar category. And I think it should be, I really do.

[A]

And it's just because of the, the modern day world, because of social media and so many different people coming into the sport and people can say and have an opinion about it, but for example, with, with, with Jake Paul and etc and all the influencers, but they bring in a lot of new eyes to the combat sport, to boxing, to

[B]

a lot of new eyes.

[A]

So I think, could you, could you

[B]

imagine if an organization got behind a guy like Ramon Deckers and showed him to the American public when he was in his prime, he would be like, who is this guy? Yeah, this monster, this animal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This technical animal, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's the thing, that's the thing about where you come from too. Like, for people that don't know kickboxing in Holland, that is the epicenter of world championship kickboxing. I mean, Rob Kamen, Ernesto Hughes, you, I mean, so Peter, oh my God, you could go on and on and on and on and on, on. So many of the greatest kickboxers, of course, Ramon Deckers, but so many of the greatest kickboxers of all time came from Holland, 100%. You know, I mean, we mentioned Badar Hari. I mean, so many of these great Melvin Manhoof, so many of these great guys, 100% came out of Holland. Yeah, it's kind of nuts if you really think about it.

[A]

Yeah, that was such a small country, but. And everybody exchanges their intelligence with each other. And I believe that because we're such a small country, that's what increases the level so much. Everybody trains also with each other. Go there, we go sparring with them, we go sparring with them, we go sparring with them. And then you learn this from that guy, you learn that from that guy. And if you do that, for example, in the US you want to train with somebody out from New York, you got to fly all the way there. You're not going to stay there too long. I think it just takes too much time and because in our country we can just drive anywhere. But it's also one of the reasons why pay per view never worked there, because if they wanted to visit an event, just drive there. Like, I'm not gonna Stay home and pay for it. That doesn't make any sense. I'll just drive there and just go watch it live.

[B]

Well, that's also why the crowds are so huge. You guys got massive crowd crowds for

[A]

some of those kickboxing out arenas and.

[B]

Yeah. People don't know in America. They don't know how big kickboxing is in Holland, in the Netherlands. It's gigantic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's like, I think number two sport.

[B]

That's crazy. Isn't that funny? Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy if you think about it. It's such a small. How many people even live in Holland?

[A]

60, 70 million?

[B]

Yeah, that's nuts. It's a small country with the greatest kickboxers of all time. It's like, it's an anomaly. It's very weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very weird how it happened.

[A]

Yeah. And also like, I think this now for the last. I think after like last 10 years, it's. We've been so good in kickboxing for the last 25 years or even longer. But now since the last 10 years, it's been recognized as well for the public. You've always been good at it, but it's always been like, I don't know, a little bit shady or whatever. And now since the last 10 years, since me and Botter, like put it on the map just exploded and everybody just, yeah. Went behind it. Like, wow. Oh, this is cool. This is cool to watch. We're good at this. We're, we're, we're the best in the world at this sport.

[B]

Are there gyms all over the place in Holland?

[A]

It was crazy. At a certain point he went. It was so crazy that every random guy could become a kickboxing teacher. So now, because it's. Because it became so big and so public, they started to do it like, okay, you got, you gotta get like an, like a diploma and a certificate to become a kickboxing trainer. You cannot just random say like, hey, I'm a kickboxing trainer. Start a kickboxing teaching people. But at a certain point that was, that was the case.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it was crazy. But it.

[B]

So what happened? How did Holland become so big in kickboxing?

[A]

I think they, yeah. With Ramon Deckers and everything. They went to, yeah. To Thailand and just like sucked all the information out of that. And we had. Yeah. Fighters, trainers going there, there. And they took like the Muay Thai of it and they took that to the, to the Netherlands. And then like exchange, like I said, because the country is so small, they Exchange everything with each other. Like, this guy learned that, that guy learned that. And if you exchange that with. With each other, you just get better and you get smarter.

[B]

But it also has to be something about the culture, maybe mentality of the heart. Yeah, we're pretty big people.

[A]

Pretty big people.

[B]

But Rob, can. I mean, excuse me. Ramon Deckers was not.

[A]

No, he was not. Not big. He was not big.

[B]

Which was one of the most extraordinary parts of his career was that he was competing against ties, but in Muay Thai. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Yeah, that was. That was insane. With elbows and it was brutal.

[B]

But his boxing, too, was a giant factor.

[A]

So explosive.

[B]

So explosive. And his style was so aggressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, he was like, just kept on going. He was feral. He was just like. And people who haven't seen, please go to YouTube and watch Ramon Decker's highlights.

[A]

Yeah. Whoo. Yeah, it is.

[B]

Oh, my God. Some of the highlights of his. His knockout highlights, like, holy, man.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

Everything was designed to kill you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every shot, every leg kick, every liver shot, every punch to the face. Everything was just with full speed ahead.

[A]

Power, explosion.

[B]

Smash.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His ankle was so fucked up that his doctor told him, like, you can't keep kicking with that thing. Like, you're gonna, like, lose your ankle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fucking taped it up, still blasting people like a kid.

[A]

And I was watching these. These fights, like, oh, my God, it was. And then with him being so explosive and then kicking on a. On a block, on a knee or

[B]

on an elbow, she, like, just right

[A]

in, just like, oh, it's just bone on bone.

[B]

Oh, just.

[A]

Just by looking at it just hurts.

[B]

Just destroyed his ankle because of that. I mean, in his later fights, later in his years, like when he fought Dwayne Ludwig, I mean, he had to have his ankle taped all over the place. Big thing was, like, hanging on by a thread.

[A]

But that's. That's what. What we were talking about, like, earlier. It's like we as. As fighters putting our health on the line for entertainment.

[B]

I mean, forever. He died young.

[A]

Yeah, he died young. But okay, that. That happens. You do. You do that because you love the sport. But then, yeah, everything needs to be transparent and it needs to be safe and with the judging. Yeah, it needs to be. It needs to be in better. So money wise and with the judging and everything just needs to be. Yeah. Needs to be right. Because what we do is out of this world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's not just kickboxing, it's boxing. It's mma. That's what all. That's what we do.

[B]

That's the reason why it's so exciting. It's part of the reason why it's so exciting is we know how dangerous it is.

[A]

Exactly. But. And that's why I feel like it has to be. It has to be fair and it needs to be compensated the right way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So everybody's like, oh, he's making so much money in. Okay. But you can only. He can't do that till he's 65 or whatever. So. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's such a small window, which is one of the things that's so extraordinary about your career that you've managed to stay on top for so long. Because generally when we look at world class fighters, there's a rule that a lot of experts supposedly have said is that it's about nine years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can only really compete in your prime for nine years. You've shown yourself to be an exception to that rule because you've been competing in your prime for a lot longer than that. Yeah. And you, you're not dropping off at all. And you weren't dropping off. You're still dominating kickboxing when you decided to step away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, even though you are an outlier and that you've been able to extend it longer than anybody, it's still. There's a window. You're not gonna be able to do this where you're 50, you know, you're not gonna be able to do this when you're 60. It's like you have a small window where you can compete. And it's. The people are paying to see you. They're not paying to see the promoter, they're not paying to see anything else. They're not paying to hear the commentators. They're paying to see the fighters perform at the very highest level of the most exciting sport on earth.

[A]

Yeah. But that's why I'm saying this because it's, it's not as much for me anymore because I'm close to being finished. You know, like we said, I'm in the winner of my career. But it's for the next generation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The next generation should be excited to get into combat sports and feel like, hey, I want to do this because I can. And it is fair, it is transparent, and I'm fighting, but I can make a very good living out of this and I could, like build like generational wealth with it.

[B]

Well, that's what's really good about, like this MVP PFL merger and having a bunch of hype on that. Like the More competition, the better. The more it's. The more eyes on the sport, the more people watch the sport, the more money will be in the sport, and then the more. The fighters will have options for who to fight for.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the best thing. Like, you just said, like, options.

[B]

Yeah. No, it's phenomenal.

[A]

If you have options, that's the best thing ever, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, hey, we got this, we got that. And it's not that you gotta, like, play them out against each other, but still, it's. It is a good thing, because if you just have one option, it's like, hey, take it or leave it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

This is what it is. And if you get like, ah, the other guy's saying this, so let me go there.

[B]

Reality is, we could use one more, you know, not just mvp, but also another. I wish one was doing better. You know, if one was doing better and they were a viable option as well. Well, because I know some guys did go over there with great success. Like Mighty Mouse went over there with great success. We need more. We need more options for fighters. And, you know, it's. It's unusual in that. In boxing, for instance, what's really important is the name of the fighters. That's what's important. You know, if Dimitri B. Val is fighting, it's. It's. People are going to. They don't give a who the promoter is. They want to see B. Vol fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if it's Art or better Beef, they want to see him fight. That's all. That's all everybody gives a. About in mma. It's ufc.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the only. The exception to that was, of course, this last MVP card where Ronda Rousey fought. So everybody's like, oh, my God, she's a legend. She's fighting and that. And Francis and G was on the card, so a lot of eyeballs got on that. So we need more of that. More of that is good for everybody.

[A]

Like, build like. Like we just talked about. Build stories around those people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who are those people next to being fighters?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're incredibly amazing at what they do in the ring or in the octagon or whatever. Okay. But who is the person behind. Okay. Oh, he's a father. Oh, really? He has two. I never knew.

[B]

I used to play chess.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So that gives them so much more depth. And I also believe that that makes them more human.

[B]

Yes, for sure. Seeing their family, seeing them interact with

[A]

their kids gets, like, closer to, oh, wow, this guy could be my neighbor.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Because he also has kids. Oh, he brings his kids to school and whatever.

[B]

You're invested in him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you like him. You want to win 100. I mean, that's a big part of it and that's something that they need to do and that. I think you're right about Glory. They really never did that. That was not really a part of the Glory promotion.

[A]

No, they're just like put up fights, put the best versus the best.

[B]

Listen, for me, I don't care. It was great.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I'm a giant Glory fan, man. Every time there's a card, I can't wait. But I watch it and people like, what are you watching? I'm like, glory's on. Like is Glory.

[A]

Yeah. I never heard about that.

[B]

It's like even my friends in, in MMA don't, Don't understand.

[A]

No. Wow. The real. The people that, the trainers and everybody, they. A lot of times they get like the Glory fighters in. To prepare their fighters to, to get into ufc.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or for big fights or whatever because like, hey, they know their standup is on level.

[B]

Yeah. Elite. I mean, and like I said, one FC has a lot of elite fighters, especially at the lighter weight classes. There's a lot of real. Jonathan Haggerty, he just beat Yukiosa, who's another guy. This guy from Japan is a Kyokushin guy who fucks up people's legs. He's really good. And then there's this guy from Dagestan who might be the best striker alive. Azadullah Iman Ghazaliev. This dude, he's really tall and he fights at 135 pounds and he's nasty, man. He's so technical. Undefeated. And he's from Dagestan. There's so many savages that are coming out of Dagestan, Just straight up killers, man. There's a dude who just won in the pfl, Magomenoff who just won in the PFL this past weekend. Another guy, he fights like Imam Ghazaliev.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Real similar. Both guys from Dagestown then. Similar styles, man.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Question mark. Kicks and elite stabbing front kicks and just real slick standup, you know. But in One fc they're having these guys fighting and you know, they're. It's really big in Asia, but it just has not caught on in America.

[A]

No. And I, I think that's also where, where the problem is. I think with them, but also with, with Glory, they just like pouring your money, pouring in money at a Certain moment. It's like, I also understand, like, the one that's investing into, like, how much money am I gonna need to pour in this right before it's gonna do something?

[B]

You know, they asked me to be. They. They asked me to be a part of that. At one point in time, they wanted me to be like the Dana White of glory. I'm like, I don't have that kind of time. I don't have that kind of time.

[A]

Exactly. Because if you were gonna say, I don't have that type of money, I'm not gonna look at you like, come

[B]

on, it's the time. It's. It would be the time.

[A]

You're so busy. You're so cool.

[B]

You would have. I know how hard Dana works. Dana works all day, every day. That guy's always doing something. He's always got deals going. He's always on the phone. He's always meetings and the headaches and canceled fights and this, that, and trying to make things happen and promotions and press conferences and it's like, yeah, they want to change. I would never half ass something like that. And you can't do that. To be a promoter is a lot. That is a full time job.

[A]

It's a full time job.

[B]

Yeah, you gotta go there and, you know, Dana set the bar very, very high. And he's the best ever. I think. I think he's the greatest promoter of all time. And to me, for me to do that, like, I couldn't. There's no way.

[A]

No. That's why it's so cool that he jumps into boxing now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That he's gonna give that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very excited try and. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I mean, there's people who are, you know, always nervous when a new guy steps into sport, but I think

[A]

it's only better, especially with his reputation.

[B]

Yeah, it's only. Yeah. With much. With, you know, like, and the amount of money they're throwing at the boxers. The MMA guys are like, hey, what are you doing? Where's that money for us?

[A]

But, yeah, but they still need to build up.

[B]

It's all good for everybody. The more money there is in the sport, the more attention, the more excitement. It's better for everybody.

[A]

But how cool would that be if there would be a world where MMA fighters, UFC fighters would also be able to get into Zufa and like, hey, you're a good boxer. We see, like, maybe there's something.

[B]

It's possible that they would do that, but right now they're not concentrating on that. They're just concentrating on that.

[A]

They first need to position themselves as. But, like, for the future, it would be.

[B]

But then if you got a big star, like, say if you take a guy like Max Holloway or something like that, and he decides he wants a box for a while, that means he's not going to be able to fight in MMA fights. So that would, like, cut off their own access to him as an MMA fighter. And he's a huge star.

[A]

Yeah. But maybe then he attracts different. Different eyeballs.

[B]

Yeah. But to do it right, you got to do it, like, kind of like when Conor did it with Floyd, he took a whole year off and he was just boxing. I mean, really, really concentrated on that.

[A]

You can't get, like, go back into MMA again.

[B]

Because then kind of messed him up. It kind of messed him up going back in MMA again. He didn't have the same momentum. It wasn't the same amount of training. Training lost with grappling and especially with kickboxing, you know, like, oh, you're only doing boxing. That training lost. Like, you have to recalibrate your whole break forever.

[A]

Yeah. And I was just. It was just excitement.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Put it out there.

[B]

But listen, for some guys, it might be a good option, you know, and for some guys, especially after knee injuries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, where boxing is not as hard on the knees. You know, you could say that. Especially when it comes to grappling and. And leg kicks. Especially like those guys that throw those side kicks to the knee. Oh, my God.

[A]

And those calf kicks. Wow.

[B]

I know. Crazy.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Oh, it's crazy. But they also, after that, after we. They saw that within UFC with an MMA kickboxing, they also started trying doing that.

[B]

Isn't it nuts that it took forever for the calf kick to be a potent weapon like that?

[A]

But it's so dangerous. It's. It's also dangerous because if you hit the shin, it's like, oh, it's the last kick you throw.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if you do it right.

[B]

Yeah, if you do it right, like, Alex Pereira destroys people's legs. Destroys them.

[A]

I don't even know how it looks like he kicks him with the foot, with the side of the. It's not even really like a low kick or whatever.

[B]

It's weird. He does it weird. And he does it with no tell. No tell. No switching of the hips at all. He just throws the leg out there. And. And it only takes a couple. Yeah, it takes a couple. And then your leg's. And then you see guy switches, dances, moving funny.

[A]

Then it's over.

[B]

That kid That I was talking about in Japan. Yukio, he's phenomenal at that. Man, his calf kicks are insane. He's just. In every exchange, every exchange he's kicking the caps inside and outside. Kyokushin guy. So it's, it's just all just hard style. Inside, outside, inside, outside.

[A]

What is, what is your opinion on that? Because me and my trainer, we were debating the calf kick because next with being super effective, it's also a long, long term injury when you get put out by calf kicks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that injury stays there for quite a while.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's brutal.

[B]

It's brutal.

[A]

So do you think, like it's a

[B]

thing that should stare these 100% it's effective.

[A]

I mean, it's really.

[B]

Listen, if you can, if you can knee bar a guy, you could heel hook a guy, you could rip his knee apart. You've got to be able to calf kick. You know, this is, it's a weapon to take away that weapon when we know how effective it is. You got guys who are always used to standing heavy on that front leg. Now all of a sudden they can't do that anymore. Like Conor. Perfect example. In the window between Conor taking time off fighting Floyd, Mayweather, getting fighting Khabib and then getting back in mma, then the calf kick came along. He never fought with. There was no calf kicks before Dustin Poirier destroyed his leg in that first round. By the time the second round was rolling around in their second fight, he was already wobbling on that front leg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crazy. Yeah, Crazy that it took so long for that one technique.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's just the thing you see, like, hey, that's effective. And everybody started doing it.

[B]

But again, dangerous, like you said, you go, I mean, this how Chris Weidman broke his leg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, he threw a really hard low kick and he caught the knee, caught the shin right below the knee and snapped his leg in half. If it gets checked and you've. And you've hit it the wrong way, especially you hit the low part of yours and the high part of his where it's thick and dense.

[A]

Yeah, that's the hardest part.

[B]

Yeah. But it's so effective. It has to stay the thing that

[A]

bothers me more than. Okay, I'm happy.

[B]

I like the sidekicks to the knee box. Bother me more.

[A]

Oh, that's. Yeah.

[B]

Did you ever see Khalil Roundtree and Modestus Bacascus? You ever see that? Oh, it's the worst one of all time. You see the leg like it turned sideways. He threw A sidekick caught him on the front leg and just turned his whole leg sideways and he screamed and the fight was over.

[A]

Rip everything apart.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He had a surgery. Had to have surgery after the fight. His leg was destroyed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When Jon Jones fought Thiago Santos, I think it was Tao Santos, I think it was.

[A]

Was.

[B]

Yeah. Thiago Santos. He blew out both his legs. He had to have knee surgery on both legs after the fight. Both legs.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Crazy because just throwing those oblique kicks and the sidekick to the knee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Blew out both his knees.

[A]

Yeah, That's. That's a kick I don't like.

[B]

When Ian Gary fought Shavkat, Shavkat Rachmanov, who's a top welterweight guy, one of the top contenders, he hit him with an oblique kick in his left knee and his knee's been ever since. And he had to have surgery at a second surgery and he's still out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's what bothers me about that, is that you might not ever recover if your knee gets stripped to shreds. Your meniscus gets torn apart, your ACL MCL gets blown out. So this is the. This is Khalil Rountry. Watch this.

[A]

Oh, oh.

[B]

Oh. Yeah. Watch it from this angle. Look at how. Oh, man, it screams. Horrible. Horrible. I wonder about that one.

[A]

Look at that. Oh.

[B]

Because I feel like that one maybe is too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's just like.

[A]

It's just career. A career end.

[B]

A career ender. Yeah. I mean, if we're. I don't know, I'm torn because on one side, one hand, it's like it doesn't happen that often, and you should be able to defend against it, and you should. Knowing it exists. You have to be able to defend against it. But the thing is, one kick could change and you're out for a year. Like we said, a fighter really only has X amount of years to compete, and one whole year gone from one kick is kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah. By the way, that's pretty extraordinary how you do that, how you know all those names and fights from, I don't know how long ago and you're just

[B]

like, yeah, but I don't remember a lot of other things. My memory is really, really, really good, but also kind of unreliable with some things.

[A]

It's just focused on.

[B]

Focus on the things I care about, which is a lot of it is combat sports. But the. The knee one, that's the only one that really bothers me. That, and I think knees to the head to a grounded opponent.

[A]

I Don't know. That's not. No, that's.

[B]

You don't think they should be able to do that? No, I don't think you should be

[A]

able to turn, even stomp on somebody's head, but they're not allowed to do that anymore.

[B]

You can't stomp, but you can. But they, like, rising allows.

[A]

Yeah, like back in the day, they did. They did that.

[B]

Yep. They used to be able to stomp and soccer kick, but. Yeah, the. Think when a guy shoots on your legs and just curls up in a fetal position, it just holds on. You shouldn't be able to do that. You should be able to knee that guy in the head because he doesn't have to hold on to that. If your knee is free and he could knee you in the. You should have to adjust. Yeah, that should. That's a. It's too legitimate of a technique. Yeah, you know, it's. It's hard if somebody's on the ground. The problem also is the cage versus the ring, because in a ring, soccer kicks make more sense and knees to the head make more sense because you can move around and you can get away from it because you could go under the rope. Like, if a knee's coming to your head, there's movement, whereas the cage is right there. I think that that's another element of the fight. That's an unnecessary element. I think maybe even what. What karate combat's doing might be the best way to do it.

[A]

Those. Those.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What is it? It's a bowl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It looks nice.

[B]

I think that might be the best way to do it. The only problem with that is when you get to the edge, you're stumbling because you're, You're.

[A]

It's. It's like half. You fall over it and.

[B]

Yeah. But. But learn how to adjust to that. And that's better than a cage, because a cage is just a physical wall. Yeah. So the thing about the ramp, the bowl, that doesn't help you get up at all.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like, if somebody takes you down against that, that's. You're not. That doesn't help you. Where a wall helps you. And there's guys that are doing workouts now where they put their back up against a wall and they're doing kettlebell get ups where they're just to feel like. Yes, they're lifting up heavy kettlebells and they're doing it in stages, getting up from the ground just to emulate that position. But it's a.

[A]

A.

[B]

It's an element.

[A]

Yeah, but that's where I feel like everything has. The ring has certain things, because I feel like if you do MMA in a ring and somebody shoots or whatever, then maybe they go through the ropes. They shoot.

[B]

That's true, too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's.

[A]

That's dangerous. But.

[B]

And then boxing, like when Bernard Hopkins fought Joe Smith Jr. And he went through the ropes and fell and landed on his head.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's how the fight ended. Like, there's. There's. But I think that was just shitty planning. I think they should have pads around the ring, and they should. You know, in case someone fall. You shouldn't just hope they don. They don't fall. Have some. Or have a larger apron, too. Yeah, that's. You could. You could fix a lot with a much larger apron where the guy falls out. There's something around the edge of the ring, but I think a cage. The problem is, in most people's eyes, UFC equals cage. Like, you fight in a cage, and

[A]

the mindset of it is pretty cool. Yeah, because you get locked up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, you're not going nowhere.

[B]

Yeah. There's something to be said for that.

[A]

Yeah. So it has something. But. Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but like we just talked about. Everything has.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's pros and its cons.

[B]

Everything has its pros and its cons, and everything is exciting in its own way. Like boxing on its own. Like, there's elements of boxing that you would not see if they were allowed to do leg kicks and elbows and all that. So there's something beautiful about just pure elite boxing, and there's something pure about elite kickboxing, and then there's something pure about elite Muay Thai. And then there's something pure about MMA, about watching it all together, and Jiu Jitsu as well. See, that's the other thing the UFC is doing. Ufc? Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So they have these big UFC jiu Jitsu matches.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. So, like, kickboxing?

[A]

Yeah, let's try it.

[B]

It's right there. It's right there. Guys. I keep sending Dana White fights. I send him fights because I'm trying to get him to do this. I'm like, you should get involved. I think he's too busy. Yeah, he's too busy. He's also got that slap fight, so he's doing that.

[A]

Crazy. Yeah, it's fun to watch, but it's

[B]

like, oh, my God, it's fun.

[A]

Like, well, why just stand there and just take a punch? I just like Try to move around and just slip and slide. You know, you just stand there with

[B]

your hands behind your back, holding onto a thing, just take it on the face. Like, fuck that.

[A]

Yeah, you're pretty. You're a pretty big animal. If you do that, you're. Yeah, that's why, for me, that, like, now experiencing boxing, I really. I can really genuinely say that I see boxing as an art.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

And kickboxing is. It's been my life. It's brought me everything. So it's so much fun, but it's. It's more intense, it's more brutal, and it's quick. It's like the pace is so fast. And in the championship, fights were just five rounds. Right. So if you lose one round, you're like, oh, and now it's like. Like I said, it's. It's an art. You have 12 rounds, and I saw the. The. The Bevo better be a fight. And then for the first so many rounds, better be it for so much better. And then later in the round, and then Bivol still got the. Got the win. Like, wow, how cool is that? Well, if you look at the fight, you think, oh, this is not gonna go well. And then he adjusts and it changes. So it's. Like I said, I really feel like boxing is so much of an art and you have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I know it's.

[B]

And if you appreciate that art form, if you really understand it and appreciate it's beautiful to watch. Like, it's beautiful to watch. Like, Floyd, when he was in his prime, 100% would barely get hit. And Floyd, unlike anybody else, was standing right in front of everybody. He was barely getting hit. He was standing right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He wasn't running away and moving around. He was right in front of guys and they couldn't hit him. Extraordinary.

[A]

And that's what I also liked or still like about Canelo, because after that fight, you saw the whole transition Canelo made, and he took. So I think, I truly believe that he took so much from that fight with Mayweather, because then he started applying it himself.

[B]

Unquestionably.

[A]

He did say, oh, I love that.

[B]

Yes, unquestionably. Yeah. His head movement got much better after that fight. I mean, that's the thing that happens when you fight the elite. You get. Daniel Cormier always has. You get the rub. Like, you fight an elite guy, win, lose or draw, you get the rub. You. You. Some of it rubs off on you.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So that's why I'm Excited to see you fight again too.

[A]

I'm so excited to compete again, but let's see who it's going to be.

[B]

Well, let's hope this podcast gets the wheels turning.

[A]

We planted some seeds.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe his Excellency will hear this and he'll decide that it's time to go.

[A]

I'll call you right after your joke. It happened. Thanks. We did.

[B]

That would be make me very happy if we somehow or another motivated them to get back to the negotiation table.

[A]

Because let's make an agreement now. Let's just make sure you're gonna be there then.

[B]

What was the last conversation you guys had about it?

[A]

I think a week. A week ago. A week and a half ago. It was more of a general conversation. Hey, we're looking at what's next.

[B]

And what did you say to them? Did you say rematch?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And what did they say?

[A]

Like, yeah, yeah, but yeah, you need to. You need two parties for that said. I know. Make it happen.

[B]

Yeah, you gotta roll up to Usyk's house with the Brinks truck. Just back that thing up.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Get the arm guards. Yeah, show them all the gold.

[A]

That's maybe my name and my face on it.

[B]

Like,

[A]

okay, put it in first.

[B]

I think that's the fight. And I hope you get it. I really do. But either way, your performance was extraordinary. And you've had a fucking incredible career, man. You should be proud. Really incredible career in kickboxing. Greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time.

[A]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And it's not just for me being here, sitting here now, because I've been. Been seeing you and hearing you talk about it for. Yeah, for years already. So like I said, it is a. It really, really, really means the world coming from you because you're an expert. You. You look everything. You look at everything, you see everything. The different organizations, so you know where to place certain guys and from history and from now. So it means the world. Thank you so much.

[B]

My pleasure, brother. It's honor. An honor to have you.

[A]

And again, thank you so much again for, for. For being here.

[B]

So it's.

[A]

It's been a while, but we're back.

[B]

Well, I had to reach out after the fight. I was like, oh, my God, we gotta do this, we gotta talk. I was like, holy shit, man. I reached out immediately. I was like, what the fuck? You had it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I saw the. The episode you guys did about it. You were talking about it. I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

I know, it was incredible. But listen, brother, congratulations. On everything. And I really, really, really hope you get that rematch.

[A]

Good seeing you, brother.

[B]

Good seeing too, sir. Thank you very much, man.

[A]

Thanks, sir.

[B]

Thank you, everybody. Bye.