The Lie You've Been Told About Prosperity

Summary

Podcast Summary: The John Bevere Podcast
Episode Title: The Lie You’ve Been Told About Prosperity
Date: May 1, 2026
Host: John Bevere
Guest: Cap Chatfield

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Overview

This episode of The John Bevere Podcast tackles the often-misunderstood and controversial topic of prosperity in the Christian faith, specifically addressing “the lie” around what biblical prosperity really means. John Bevere and guest Cap Chatfield (pastor, content creator, and author of The Power to Prosper) share personal stories, biblical insights, and practical wisdom. Together, they confront the stigma surrounding prosperity, differentiate godly from ungodly approaches, and urge believers—especially leaders—to recover a healthy, scriptural understanding so the Church can thrive and fulfill its mission.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Breaking the Stigma: Why Talk About Prosperity?

• Prosperity as a Taboo Topic: Cap opens up about his struggle with the "prosperity gospel" label, describing how it carries a "stain" in many Christian circles (09:04-11:00).
  • “You could talk about the full counsel of God's word...and then as soon as you talk about prosperity, it's like, boom, none of that stuff matters. You're now in this category.” – Cap Chatfield (00:10)
• Godly vs. Ungodly Prosperity: Both speakers stress the vital distinction: it's not about selfish gain but enabling believers to fulfill their God-given mission (00:45, 21:27).
  • “Why does he give us the power to get wealth?...That's what distinguishes ungodly prosperity from godly prosperity.” – John Bevere (00:45, 21:27)

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2. Personal Stories: Wrestling with Calling and Provision

• Cap’s Testimony: Formerly an atheist, Cap describes how fear of poverty in ministry delayed his full surrender to God (12:00-15:00).
  • Notable story: Unable to buy his son basic T-ball equipment due to financial hardship despite tithing and part-time ministry work (13:00-14:00).
• A Turning Point: Cap recounts an honest prayer where God rebuked him for prioritizing his own plans and expecting God to bless them, instead of seeking God's will first (14:41-15:38).
  • Quote: “I'm not obligated to bless your version of my vision for your life, your ministry, or your calling.” – Cap Chatfield (reporting God’s words, 14:42)

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3. The Theology of Prosperity: What the Bible Really Teaches

• Key Scripture: Deuteronomy 8:18—God gives the power to gain wealth to establish His covenant, not for personal indulgence (20:15-21:32).
• 2 Corinthians 9: The principle of sowing and reaping (“those who give generously will reap generously”) is financial, not just spiritual (16:19-16:34).
• Definition Clarified:
  • “Biblical prosperity is having more than enough to fulfill your God-given assignment and leftovers to be a blessing to the people around you.” – Cap Chatfield (17:41)
• Distorted Teachings: John warns against teachings that present prosperity as a means for selfish gain, recounting his own swing from prosperity excess to biblically balanced stewardship (23:22-25:22).

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4. The Cost of Neglect: When the Church Ignores Prosperity

• Churches Hurt by Fear of Controversy: Many pastors avoid teaching on prosperity out of fear, leaving their congregations “destroyed for a lack of knowledge” (26:11-28:39).
  • “Evangelism without discipleship is cruelty.” – Cap Chatfield (05:36)
• Real-World Examples:
  • John shares about Indonesian churches thriving on prosperity principles—even in low-income contexts—enabling massive outreach and charity (32:00-35:12).
  • Muslims treated for free at a church-run hospital demonstrates prosperity used for Kingdom impact, not self-enrichment (33:20-34:00).

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5. Addressing Common Objections and Global Relevance

• Not an ‘American Gospel’: Biblical prosperity transcends culture and economics; it’s not about chasing the “American dream” but about God’s empowering generosity (30:38-35:12).
• Old and New Testament Patterns: From Abraham and Job to Peter and Joseph of Arimathea, biblical characters model prosperity rightly received and used (30:37-32:00).
• Satan’s Tactic: John proposes that the enemy seeks to pervert important teachings (like faith, holiness, prosperity) rather than eliminate them (36:36-41:23).
  • “Whatever is important in regard to my second coming...you're going to try to pervert it. Not eliminate it, pervert it.” – John Bevere (36:36)

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6. The Right Heart Posture: Seeking First the Kingdom

• Priority Check: True prosperity begins with seeking God’s kingdom above all, not using God’s Word for personal gain (40:39-41:44).
  • “It is a person who uses my word to execute his own will.” – John Bevere (Holy Spirit’s definition of a ‘religious spirit’, 41:24)
• Call to Boldness: Both encourage leaders to boldly preach what Scripture says, regardless of criticism, so the Church can resource global mission (36:36-39:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Evangelism without discipleship is cruelty.”
  – Cap Chatfield (05:36)

• “I'm not obligated to bless your version of my vision for your life, your ministry, or your calling.”
  – (God, to Cap Chatfield, 14:42)

• “Biblical prosperity is having more than enough to fulfill your God-given assignment and leftovers to be a blessing to the people around you.”
  – Cap Chatfield (17:41)

• “Prosperity is not a curse word. And if it were, God would have a lot of repenting to do.”
  – Cap Chatfield (25:41)

• “It is not money that’s the root of all evil, it’s the love of money.”
  – John Bevere (40:09)

• “It is a person who uses my word to execute his own will.”
  – John Bevere (Holy Spirit’s definition of a religious spirit, 41:24)

• Personal Testimony Section:

  • Miraculous healing story from an Indonesian pastor’s son, and growth of the church/hospital (35:13-36:20).
  • Cap’s leap of faith to pursue full-time ministry sparked exponential growth and provision (20:15-21:19).

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-02:10: Introduction to prosperity controversy; guest intro
• 05:36: Cap on discipleship and “evangelism without discipleship is cruelty”
• 09:10: Cap’s new book: The Power to Prosper
• 12:00-15:00: Cap’s personal struggle with calling and financial lack
• 14:42: God to Cap: “I can’t be bought off with a tithe”
• 16:19-16:34: 2 Corinthians 9: sowing and reaping explained
• 17:41: What is biblical prosperity?
• 21:27: Deuteronomy 8:18 and the purpose of wealth
• 23:22-25:22: John’s experience with prosperity teaching extremes
• 25:41: “Prosperity is not a curse word”
• 30:37-35:12: Global examples; Indonesian church and prosperity
• 36:36-41:23: Perverted teachings; what is a religious spirit?
• 41:24-41:44: Seeking God’s will vs. using His word for one’s own
• 41:45-end: Closing encouragement; where to find Cap’s book

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Final Thoughts & Call to Action

Both John Bevere and Cap Chatfield close with an urgent appeal for Christians and church leaders to reclaim a biblical vision of prosperity—one that starts with seeking the Kingdom first (Matthew 6:33), stewards resources for God’s purposes, and empowers every believer to obey their unique calling boldly and generously.

Book Mentioned:

• The Power to Prosper by Cap Chatfield ([Link provided in episode description])

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Summary prepared for those seeking practical, biblically grounded answers to the prosperity question—without the hype or distortion. The conversation is courageous, honest, and aimed at equipping believers to thrive for the glory of God and the expansion of His Kingdom.

Transcript

[Cap Chatfield]

Fraudulent pastors exploiting people's faith for their own financial gain. He literally locking these people up. Don't preach the gospel and then also

[John Bevere]

be worth $40 million.

[Cap Chatfield]

You talk about the full council of God's word. You could talk about hell, heaven, LGBT stuff. You could talk about the Rapture. And then as soon as you talk about prosperity, it's like, boom. None of that stuff matters. You're now in this category.

[John Bevere]

For us to be able to accomplish things in this world, we have to be financially prosperous.

[Cap Chatfield]

There's so many people who are willing to invest tens of thousands of dollars a year in secular and oftentimes new age and even demonic coaching to learn how to prosper cuz the church isn't teaching it. And God brought me to the Scripture. Deuteronomy 8:18. Remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the power to get wealth.

[John Bevere]

Why does he give us the power to get wealth? Bam. That's what distinguishes ungodly prosperity from godly prosperity. Hey everybody. Welcome to the John Bevere podcast. We have a special edition podcast today. As you know, every once in a while I love to interview guests and I'm really excited about today's guest. We got Cap Chatfield on who he and Joy have been married how long?

[Cap Chatfield]

10 years. In March.

[John Bevere]

In March. And you've got four kids? Yeah, four children. Two boys that are absolutely amazing and two gorgeous girls. So tell us their names, from oldest to youngest.

[Cap Chatfield]

So boy, girl, Boy, girl.

[John Bevere]

Yep.

[Cap Chatfield]

Brave. He's eight.

[John Bevere]

I love that name, by the way.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

Is that you or is that Joy?

[Cap Chatfield]

It was kind of both. It was one of those things we were praying before he was born that God would make him a brave warrior for his generation.

[John Bevere]

I love that.

[Cap Chatfield]

And then my wife turned to me and was like, what if we name him Brave? And then his middle name is Warner, which means protector of people. So Brave Warner chapter. Yeah. Raven, she's our first daughter. She's six. And she's a spitfire. She's just. She's my wife.

[John Bevere]

Cutest smile.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah, she's. She's the biggest goofball in our family too. And then Quinn, he's our four year old. And then Quinn Kairos is his middle name. And then Charlie, Charlie is our four, our fourth kiddo. Our baby girl.

[John Bevere]

So. Well, absolutely beautiful family. And now secondly, what you do, you are a producer. You've done two full length documentaries, right?

[Cap Chatfield]

Correct.

[John Bevere]

And those are acts.

[Cap Chatfield]

That was the first one I did.

[John Bevere]

Yeah.

[Cap Chatfield]

On Amazon Prime. It's really a film directed by the Holy Spirit, we. I had this vision of this woman in a village halfway across the world, and I didn't even know she existed, but I knew that the Lord was tapping me on the shoulder and saying, I want you to take a film crew and go in faith to the bush of Turkana, Kenya, to go see where this woman is, capture her story and bring it back to the United States.

[John Bevere]

It's amazing. Yeah.

[Cap Chatfield]

The fact that my lead pastor actually signed off on, it's even more amazing. But we went, we found her. Her name was Esther. And I'll save the rest of the details. People can go watch that on. On Amazon, the second film. A lot of people don't know that I did because I kept my name anonymous. And it was during the pandemic. It was like actually 2021. And I was a part of a crew, a small crew, where we were going around and interviewing doctors and nurses and people who were injured by the. You know what? If this can be on YouTube. Gotta be careful with the language I share. But we were basically showing the other side of the narrative that the mainstream media wasn't sharing in regards to the COVID 1919 pandemic. And. And I was very hesitant about putting my name on that. But I was like, I prayed, I said, lord, if you can connect me with the right people to put out this film, I know that we're in a propaganda war right now. And so that film was called the Time is Now, so people could probably.

[John Bevere]

That one on Prime.

[Cap Chatfield]

It's not. No, I don't think they'd ever put that on Prime. It's on Rumble, so you can find Rumble.

[John Bevere]

Okay. The time is now.

[Cap Chatfield]

The time is now.

[John Bevere]

Okay. Yep. And now the other thing you do you do a lot of content creating?

[Cap Chatfield]

Yes, I do. I do too much content, but that's big part of what I do.

[John Bevere]

And, and, and if you're not following him on Instagram, he has such good posts, so it'd be really worthwhile.

[Cap Chatfield]

Appreciate.

[John Bevere]

And the other thing that you do that is very important is that you help pastor the Love Church in Omaha, Nebraska.

[Cap Chatfield]

Correct? Yes.

[John Bevere]

And what's your role by helping to pastor? Are you so teaching past?

[Cap Chatfield]

I am. I'm on our teaching team. We have a teaching team. I get in rotation every six to eight weeks. But then I'm also the online pastor, so that's like my main role of overseeing. Here's the goal. We believe that behind every screen is a soul that Jesus paid a high price for. And so how do we turn viewers into disciples? So with my platform and then collaborating with the church's platform, how do we get people who are watching church to actually be a part of a covenant relationship with a body of believers, even if it's remote? And what we've seen is we take this for granted. At least I do, that we are part of a Bible believing, Holy Spirit filled church that's local. There's a lot of people that don't even know if there's a church trustworthy near them. And so we prefer that people are planted in a local church, but if we can be the bridge for the time being of them getting connected with a more local presence, you know, that's what we want to serve them with.

[John Bevere]

You know, I'm just so glad people are waking up. Leaders are waking up to how important discipleship is. And discipleship doesn't happen in a big auditorium. 5,000. Now, I believe that you've got to have big, big churches, because big, big churches can make massive impacts in community. But within that big, big church, you better have a way of making sure everybody's cared for, being discipled and because, you know, converts can be lost so easily.

[Cap Chatfield]

Oh, for sure.

[John Bevere]

And disciples are going to make more disciples, right?

[Cap Chatfield]

Well, what we say is we took this from Pastor Greg Lori, but it's, it's become a mantra within our church culture. Evangelism without discipleship is cruelty.

[John Bevere]

Wow, that's.

[Cap Chatfield]

You see what I'm saying? Because you have like the, you think of the four soils, you have the second soil, which is the tree that doesn't bear deep roots. And then it just gets scorched up by the sun. And so many believers are just fireworks, unfortunately, that catch fire. It's big, it's loud, it's beautiful. And then they fizzle away. And Jesus called us to make, to bear fruit that lasts. So that's our desire.

[John Bevere]

There was a couple that they release as a my heroes. And, and I can't, I'm not even going to say their name because most people your age wouldn't even know who they are. But they were probably the most impactful evangelists in the world. In the 1980s, when we almost, we, we almost went to work for them. I mean, I wanted to, they wanted us to work for them. But after a lot of praying, a lot of discussion, we realized it just wasn't God's will. I remember he looked at us and said, we all love each other so much. We just felt like this was a natural fit. But we feel the check of the Holy Spirit just as you And Lisa do, because we were three weeks away from moving up there. And I remember I said, lisa, something's wrong. And I called him and I said, something's just not settling right. And, but anyway, still one of my great heroes at, at in 1987, at that time they had led 62 million people to Jesus. Now most of it was their mass crusades they did in Africa. They would have anywhere from 200,000 to 500,000 in a one night crusade. So towards the end of his life, he went back to Africa to one of the places he did one of his original crusades in. Right. And he discovered the local Christians there were incorporating local witch doctor practices into their Christianity. And he said to a very close friend of mine, he didn't say it to me and I want to say he said it to a very close friend who was a pastor. He said, my wife's. And I only regret is that we didn't set up training schools for the new believers to be able to disciple them in every single place we did our crusade. So you're right, it is almost cruelty if you lead somebody. Now don't get me wrong, I mean Philip leads the Ethiopian eunuch to Jesus. Sure. And then God has him disappear for sure. So it's not like, you know, you don't want to put bondage on people and say, hey, if you're out there and you lead somebody on an airplane to Jesus, like, oh my gosh, I'm. I'm being cruel by, by not discipling them.

[Cap Chatfield]

No, you're right.

[John Bevere]

Cap's not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. But it is important to disciple people and even tell that person on the plane, find a good church, find a good home group that's meeting. But.

[Cap Chatfield]

Right.

[John Bevere]

I don't want to lose any more time because you're writing a book and you're. Your book in my book actually launched the same day. Okay. So every author that writes a full blown book knows it's like birthing a baby. So it's like your birthday, right? Yeah. March 3rd was, was the day our books launched. And I love what you're writing about because I have seen this. So I'm just going to open it up. This is your first book. We're going to, we're going to dress this elephant in the room.

[Cap Chatfield]

Okay, let's do it.

[John Bevere]

Is your first book. Why on earth did you pick this topic? I mean, if you'd written 10, 12 books, but man, the bravery. I am so proud of you, your age. I'm so proud of you.

[Cap Chatfield]

Thank you.

[John Bevere]

So that's why I'm so excited to talk about this. Let's go. What's the title of the book, first of all, so everybody knows.

[Cap Chatfield]

The title is the Power to Prosper.

[John Bevere]

Okay. Don't turn it off and listen. Okay. Because this is really godly and scriptural what you're about to hear. Go ahead.

[Cap Chatfield]

Thank you. And so it's funny because the first chapter in the book, it's like the introduction, it says the book I didn't want to write. And so I. I. The story of even how this came about. I got connected with my publisher, Charisma House, and they had seen my content. They'd seen just the consistency of what I've been doing online. And I told them that in 2025, I was interested in writing my first book. So we put together a contract. I didn't even really have a plan of what the book was going to be. It's probably similar to you. Like, you got 20 books still in you that are still needing to come out. That's how I felt. There's, like. There's so much content I'd love to put out there, but the more that I prayed about it, the more the Lord was just stirring in my heart. I want you to talk about financial prosperity. And I was almost like, no, not that, because, I mean, it's almost like I've only been a believer for about 13 years now, I think. 13 years. So I was an atheist in high school. I'm not. I don't have, like, the. I don't have a connection to the evangelical church ever since my upbringing. But even in the short period of time that I've been walking with the Lord, I've seen that being marked with the label of prosperity gospel, prosperity, preacher. It's almost like a stain on your reputation, and it puts you in a certain category. And it's really amazing, John, because you could talk about every. You could talk about the full counsel of God's word. You could talk about hell, Heaven. You could talk about LGBT stuff. You could talk about the Rapture. And then as soon as you talk about prosperity, it's like, boom, none of that stuff matters. You're now in this category. And I was kind of afraid for my own reputation, right. As somebody who's actually built a brand, talking about some of the most culturally controversial things, even making a documentary that could have. Who knows what could have happened with that documentary that I made? I was really hesitant about this one. But there's. There's A, there's this thing that I'm learning to really trust the Lord with. And if you're feeling that hesitation and you're feeling like you know that the pushback is going to be there, it's probably because you're over the target. And it's probably because God actually has a really big assignment there. And so the book chronicles a little bit of my own personal testimony. And in my testimony, I have been called by God to be a minister ever since I got saved. It's probably before I was even born. But I was hesitant on that calling because I was literally asking the question, God, I want to do it, but do you pay well enough? I know that's pretty blunt. It's great. But the thing is that all I've ever seen was this mindset that pursuing God's call in your life, especially for ministry, is a pathway to poverty. And for me, it's not that I need nice things. I don't need an extravagant lifestyle. I'm not against it, but for me it was. I just didn't want to have to worry about money. I wanted to be able to buy my kids braces without thinking about it. I wanted to be able to take my wife on vacation. I didn't want. I have a story, actually. I was in the midst of me kicking against the goads and not stepping into my. My true calling of being a preacher. I was building a business on the side, hoping that God would bless it. I was trying to do it the right way, do it in an honorable way. But it wasn't what God was inviting me into, wasn't the thing he was calling me to focus on. And while the business was failing, I remember a few really distinct moments. One of the moments that really frustrated me. My son Brave was 3 at the time and he, he was interested in playing T ball. So we joined this, this little like rec T ball team. I couldn't even afford a used T ball bat or a T ball helmet from like Facebook Marketplace. And to avoid him feeling the embarrassment of me having him ask his friends at 3 years old to borrow their baseball bat or their helmet because all these kids are decked out. They got the helmet, they got the visors, they got the pit viper glasses and he doesn't have any of that stuff. So I'm having these conversations with the dads privately if I could borrow their helmet and their glove and their kids bat that they provided for their kids. And I'm thinking like, okay, first of all, as a dad, this is just like, it's such a gut punch. I'm supposed to be the one providing for my kids. Can't at the level that I want to. And then as a minister, someone who's like a bold preacher of the gospel, because I was serving in as a lay pastor of the church at the time, I'm thinking, who on earth would want to follow my God if I'm like, God's going to take care of these areas of your life? And for me, like, the fruit of my life was looking like everything but that. So none of these things were adding up. And then in 2022, when everything came to a head, my business was a dumpster fire. My wife went through a really horrific health situation that I wasn't able. I didn't have health insurance. I was paying for literally all of her insulin, all of her treatments. She had four or five autoimmune diseases like that. And I had no idea what to do. So I'm paying for all of her stuff on a credit card while my business is taking on debt to keep my employees employed. And I cry out. I'm on my face in my office, and I cry out to God. You talk about being bold. I've learned that the best place to be raw about how you feel is in the presence of God.

[John Bevere]

Yes.

[Cap Chatfield]

And I just wrestled with him and I said, God, what gives? Here I am trying to serve your people in a church. Here I am trying to build a business the right way, tithing off of the gross revenue of my business, which a lot of business owners who love God, they won't even do that. It's like, I'll do it after taxes. I'll do it with the net. I was doing it with the gross. And I said, is this how you treat your servants? And then God spoke, and that's when everything. I got really humbled. And he said. He said, cap, first of all, I can't be bought off with a tithe. I was like, I'm gonna see my way out of this office. And he was like, no, no, you stay here. I got a lot of things I gotta deal with with you. And he said, I'm not obligated to bless your version of my vision for your life, your ministry, or your calling. He said, you had Matthew 6:33 backwards, which, you know, it says, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all of these things will be added unto you.

[John Bevere]

Yeah.

[Cap Chatfield]

He said, you've been seeking first after all these other things, trying to get your ducks in a row once the business gets to this place. Once I make enough money, once we have enough clients, then I will have earned the right to focus on my, my calling of what I was put on the earth to do. Said I'm not obligated to bless that. It's not what the word says. But if you were to seek first my kingdom and my righteousness, everything else would fall into place, like all the material stuff that is necessary for my assignment. Let me clarify. When I talk about prosperity, my definition, what I think is biblical. When we see in 2nd Corinthians 9 about prosperity, Paul's exhorting the church and he says, those who sow sparingly will reap sparingly. Those who sow bountifully.

[John Bevere]

Language everybody understands. Those who plant sparingly will harvest good sparingly. Yeah.

[Cap Chatfield]

Those who give generously is really what it's saying. Those who give sparingly will reap sparingly and those who give generously will.

[John Bevere]

That's exactly what Paul is saying.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yes.

[John Bevere]

Act. He is absolutely talking about financial gifts in that chapter.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yep.

[John Bevere]

And he is talking about how financial gifts, God will multiply them just as seed gets multiplied when you plant it in the ground.

[Cap Chatfield]

Correct.

[John Bevere]

So for somebody to knock on prosperity, they're knocking on what Paul is actually writing about here to the most carnal church, the Corinthian church that he wrote to. Okay, so I just want to make sure. That's great. It's great because this story, I want to hear the rest of this office thing. God saying, no, you're not leaving my office. You're going to listen to me.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah, it became his office real quickly. It was my office.

[John Bevere]

I love that.

[Cap Chatfield]

Boom. I was like, okay, I'm a little over my skis here. But then. Then what? So the, the definition of prosperity. So in that chapter, Paul says, and all the.

[John Bevere]

God is able to make all grace.

[Cap Chatfield]

God is. Yes. God is all able to make all grace abound towards you. That you would have all sufficiency in all things and have an abundance left over to meet every occasion for generosity.

[John Bevere]

Correct.

[Cap Chatfield]

So the idea is prosperity. Biblical prosperity is having more than enough to fulfill your God given assignment and leftovers to be a blessing to the people around you. It's not about selfishness or greed. It's about sufficiency and generosity. And so but the thing for me was that I was tithing. I was. And there's probably people listening right now, John, who have tithed faithfully but not with expectation. And they've also perhaps tithed but not. Are not in alignment with God's will in some other areas of their life. And that was me. I was not in alignment with my God given assignment. And so God was basically saying to me, cap, I want to be your only client. Would that be nice? I was like, that'd be amazing. I would love to have no other name pop up on my phone other than yours because it'd be so easy to work for you. But what I also had to realize was if he was going to employ me to do his work, I needed to do exactly what he was calling me to do. Because you got an amazing team here. If there's people on your team, let's say you got a video, a video editor on your team. Your video editor came to you and said, Mr. Bevere, I, you know, I appreciate you hiring me to edit this video for the podcast that's coming out this Friday. I didn't do that. But I want you to check out this spreadsheet. I was working really hard on this spreadsheet, blah, blah, blah, blah. Maybe you'd be impressed, but mostly you'd probably be very annoyed, probably because that wasn't what you hired them to do the job for. And then you have a deadline you're trying to meet. And so that's what God revealed to me is, cap, I'm a better master than the world is. I'm a better master master than Pharaoh, King Nebuchadnezzar, the Antichrist. I'm a better master. And I want my people to understand this and I want you to understand this, but I'm not obligated to bless a work that I never called you to do. Or at least 98% of it being correct, but 2% being off. So then in 2023, I turned to my wife with four months of savings and a call from God, no income coming in, no following on social media. And I said, hey, babe, I don't know what to tell you, but I think God is telling me to go all in on creating content for him online. And I'm just asking that you'd have my back for four months. And if it doesn't work after four months, I'll go get a normal job, I'll go get health insurance, but I'm just asking that you bet on me for four months. And she said, I love it, but how are you going to make money doing this? We have a mortgage, we got three kids at the time when this happened. And I said, I don't know, but I'm tired of trying to figure that out on my Own. And I just want to trust God in this area of my life.

[John Bevere]

I love that.

[Cap Chatfield]

And she said, all right, well, if anyone can do it, it's you. I got your back. Four months. YouTube channel grew. It was grueling four months, but my YouTube channel grew from a thousand to 10,000 subscribers. And then after that, it grew from 10,000 to 100,000 in 28 days. And then there it went from 100,000 to 200,000 in 10 days and then hit a million subscribers that same year in December. And then let's just say that the financial part just completely took care of itself. But it was because I came into full alignment. And I think that's the reason why God wanted me to write this book, was because what was keeping me from stepping in fully to my God given assignment was a fear of lack and a trust in myself more than a trust in God. A trust in another employer more than a trust in God. And God brought me to the scripture, Deuteronomy 8:18, which says, Remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the power to get wealth. Not your mom, not your dad, not your boss, not the pastor, not the government. It is God.

[John Bevere]

But there's a continuation of that. Oh, yeah, okay, go ahead. Because I'm very familiar with the scripture. Why does he give us the power to get wealth?

[Cap Chatfield]

That he may establish his covenant.

[John Bevere]

Bam.

[Cap Chatfield]

That he has made with our spiritual forefathers.

[John Bevere]

That's what distinguishes ungodly prosperity from godly prosperity. That he may establish his covenant.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah, go ahead.

[John Bevere]

I didn't mean to interrupt.

[Cap Chatfield]

No, it's great you have total permission.

[John Bevere]

The reason I'm so in awe right now is you and I have such similar stories and you probably don't even know it, but when I'm a. I'm. I'm in school studying mechanical engineering. And it took a year and a half for me to say yes to God. And finally one day he came on me and he said, I, I've called you to preach. What are you going to do about it? Well, what I struggled with is I grew up in a little town of 2800 people. We were not a suburb of a big city. Well, 2800 people on the west coast of Michigan. The only two preachers I knew were my Catholic priest who didn't get married, and the other one was a pastor of a small church in our town who had two kids around my age. And I went into their house and it was so smelly and so disorganized and so impoverished that I Had to hold my breath. And I said, I got to get out of here. So my image of being a ministry was having a very filthy house with weird kids. They were a little strange. Or ending up in Africa in a shack or not getting married. That's my image of ministry.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

So when God came down on me and said, I've called you to preach. What are you going to do about it? I said, I don't care if I end up in Africa in a shack. I don't care if I have a house and smelly, smelly and weird kids. I said, I'll preach. And I'm studying engineering. And that was the thing to study then, because engineers could go into anything. I was going to go into corporate America. I was going to make a lot of money because I was going to go to Harvard. My professor was already planning that. I was going to go to Harvard, get my mba, and I was going to go way up in the corporate ladder. I was going to make a lot of money. I was going to tie to my church and have a wife and take three vacations a year. So God comes on me and says that. And Cap, I said, I'm going to follow you no matter what.

[Cap Chatfield]

Thank you, Lord.

[John Bevere]

Now, the thing that happened to us is we went into a prosperity that would give a very negative. What's the word I'm looking for a negative image to everybody out here. Our church was off balance. We saw the reason people were giving was to get the cars, to get the houses. And we saw the flaw, we saw the error. Because people were basically all excited about giving because of what they were going to harvest.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

And it wasn't about establishing the kingdom. And so when Lisa and I left that church, we went, we swung the pendulum. But then all of a sudden one day, God deals with me. You have basically, you've gone away from my word. I'm the one that. That started this because I saw 2nd Corinthians 9. I really saw it without the help of somebody teaching it with the slant of giving to get.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

I started seeing Deuteronomy differently. I started seeing the whole scripture and that's when it swung back to a healthy realization is God understands for us to be able to accomplish things in this world, we have to be financially prosperous. I look at the fact that at messenger, we've given away over 65.5 million resources to pastors and leaders in 243 nations of the world. 45 million of those are physical resources. 20 million are digital. We developed this app this app costs. We've put $40 million into it. When you look at all the translations. Right. How am I supposed to tell the people that give to our ministry, you know, prosperity is wicked when, if they don't prosper in what they're called to do in the marketplace or whatever, how in the world are we reaching? Because we get these testimonies. I mean, we've put over 4 million just in Iran alone. So how do we continue to do this work while telling people that prosperity is evil? It's not evil.

[Cap Chatfield]

Right.

[John Bevere]

It is evil when we view it incorrectly. This is all about me. It's not about me. It's about establishing his kingdom, his covenant. Right. I didn't mean to take your. The sale out. Your win. But I'm just saying that I am so on the same page with you.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

It's about being effective in changing lives. Yeah.

[Cap Chatfield]

You've lived it. Well, I'll go into the problem around the thing a little bit more because in the book, you'll see one of the chapters is literally titled Prosperity is not a curse word. And if it were, God would have a lot of repenting to do. Because when you look at the, the whole counsel of God's word from the Old Testament all the way to the New Testament, from the Garden of Eden all the way to the millennial kingdom that Jesus establishes, there's this pattern of prosperity all the way throughout.

[John Bevere]

Oh, yes.

[Cap Chatfield]

And then, but then there's this other problem that I've noticed too, John, where this, the same tension that I felt where I felt like, okay, if I'm going to do this, it's a pathway to poverty. I think a lot of other pastors have fallen into that trap as well. And by the way, in the book, right away, I address some of the, the grievous errors that ministers have made in regards to the false promises and, and just flash over faithfulness, et cetera. But I think, I think most ministers are so afraid of dealing with the same kickback that I was afraid of dealing with, that they don't teach it properly to their church. So then the church is destroyed for a lack of knowledge. So a lot of believers don't know how to prosper according to God's will. So now they're trying to figure out how it according to the world. I mean, I just talked to somebody on your team in regards to the coaching world. There's so many people who are willing to invest tens of thousands of dollars a year in worldly, secular, and oftentimes new age and even demonic coaching to learn how to prosper because the church isn't teaching it. So then these people don't know how to tap into God's economy. They don't know proper the the principles and laws around tithes, offerings, alms, etc, they don't. Then the church, the ministry begins to suffer. The minister becomes burnt out, has to be bivocational, not by choice, but out of necessity. And then they put their kids on the altar of ministry to make the whole thing work. The kids grow up resenting ministry and then the crazy cycle continues. And so for me it's like this is an issue that we need to flip around because there's a better way God has. So in his word we see a better way where the prosperity is not limited just to the preacher making all the money. And then the people, he's like fleecing the sheep. It's this like photosynthesis style economy where the people of God give to the work of the Lord. And that's just part of the system. There's other components too. But they give faithfully to the work of the Lord. They are rewarded for it, as Jesus promised. Seek first the kingdom. The measure that you give will be given back to you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The ministry is able to thrive. The ministers are being paid for materially for the spiritual impact that they're creating. And then the cycle goes in and an energizing, prosperous cycle. So that was really the desire was like, how do we get, how do we unbrainwash the church to just see God's word plainly? And once you see it, it's like you can't unsee it. It's all over the place.

[John Bevere]

I had so many encounters with this when we first started ministry. But one of them I remember is it was back in the 90s and I went to a conference and probably the church building sat 4 or 500. And you know, I remember the pastor got up on the first night of the conference and almost apologized, taking the offering. And the next night I walked in and I said, why are you hurting your people so bad? He was like, what? I said, why are you hurting your people? I said, you're building no faith in them to receive from heaven so that they can continue to build the kingdom of God. I said, you're basically apologizing for taking this. You think you're being humble, but you're really hurting your the people in your church. Y He was like, I never thought of it like that. I said, it takes faith, it takes Faith. Faith is hearing the word of God. You said nothing to them about a farmer who sows a seed. I said, I said this is literally what you're doing. You're expecting them to plant seed in the ground and then they're walking away and watching that seed grow up and rot on the vine. I said, the farmer has faith. That's why he plants the seed in the ground, because he knows he's going to get a harvest, because he can plant more seed. But then I'll have food for people so that they won't starve. Yes, that's investing the seed into the ground so that you can feed your community. When you invest into the kingdom of God, you realize that Jesus is the one that says give and it will be given to you again. Press down, good, shaken together, running over. Men will give into your bosom. That's not just people giving you money. That is God giving you creative ideas so that now all of a sudden men will be attracted to what it is your God has called you to do. And then all of a sudden now you've got the ability to do more, Right? And it's, it's, it's so clear in scripture, right?

[Cap Chatfield]

It is. And the thing, the thing that blows my mind the most is, oh, gosh, we could, we could do a five part series on this.

[John Bevere]

Oh, I know, but one of the

[Cap Chatfield]

things that sticks out to me the most because let's, let's just think about some of the objections. One of the objections that people would make is this is you're talking about the American gospel. That's not, that's not the biblical gospel. You're talking about this Americanized American dream. White picket fence, the whole nine yards. But what's so crazy is you look all the way back to the Garden of Eden. You look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Boaz, Solomon, even Job. People look at Job and they're like, what about Job? I'm like, well, what about job 42? Because we talk about all the loss that Job had. But then at the very end of Job, God restored all that Satan took from him, by the way, and then brought it back double to what he had before. And so you see consistently, well, what about Jesus? Well, how about Jesus blessing Peter's business when Peter's business was he was fishing all night long, didn't catch a single thing. The fish represented income for what he was supposed to do. Jesus comes on the shore and tells him, hey, why don't you cast out your net on the other side? Peter brings in A catch so great that the nets begin to burst, the boat begins to sink, and he has to bring in other partners, other fishermen to help bring the catch in. Is that not biblical prosperity? When Peter has to pay taxes and Jesus turns to Peter and says, go fishing again and watch. I'm going to send a fish your way. It's going to have two gold coins in its mouth. It's just everywhere.

[John Bevere]

What about Joseph of Arimathea? He's a rich disciple of Jesus who has the guts, the faith to go to Pilate. He could have lost his life, but he was. The Bible literally says there was a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph who went to Pilate. So. And it said he's a disciple. Let me, let me tell you something. This is not an American gospel. There's a church. I'm thinking I could go on and on and on. So as you know, I've been to 61 nations, right? So Indonesia. When I first started going to Indonesia back in the 90s, Indonesia was 1% Christian and 99% Muslim. Do you know that Indonesia is the most Muslim and still today the most Muslim nation in the, in the world?

[Cap Chatfield]

Did not know that.

[John Bevere]

Yes, number one in the world. Okay. As far as population goes now, today they're only 10. They're only 90% Muslim. They're 10% Christian. So that's, that's the advancement of the church.

[Cap Chatfield]

Wow.

[John Bevere]

There is a church that I went to that on their, their auditorium set. 35,000 people. Our NBA stadiums have 19,000 people. This pastor built a church of 35,000. Do you know what the average income is for a person in Indonesia? 99 of the people in Indonesia, do you know what their income is a month? 15.

[Cap Chatfield]

I was gonna say a dollar a day. So it's less.

[John Bevere]

15.

[Cap Chatfield]

50 cents a day.

[John Bevere]

Okay. So now he teaches them on prosperity because he understands it's scriptural. And how are my people going to be lights in their world? And literally they have this 35,000-seed auditorium which they fill four times a day. And that was, that was when I was there, I think about 13 years ago. So they built a hospital right next to the auditorium. The church owns the hospital. I walk into the hospital. Do you know who most of the people that were in there getting kidney dialysis and all this?

[Cap Chatfield]

Muslims.

[John Bevere]

Muslims. Do you know? He told me, he said, yeah, you know, I've built two mosques in within a mile, within a kilometer of our church. And I was like, I'm sorry, I don't understand the wisdom. He Said John, listen, they, they put, they put death threats out on my life when we first started the church. And I thought, you know what? Why not just build their building for them? Because I'm going to win all of them. They're all going to end up here. And he, he's. He was like, we're getting so many. They're getting, they're getting. Wow. Tons of Muslims saved every, every single week. And he's like, I'll build it because they're going to end up here. I'm like, okay, I didn't. I still don't comprehend that one. But I literally saw a man who, because of his preaching and not be, not, not. So it's not an American gospel. No, he literally. Lives were being changed, transformed. People were prospering in their businesses, their small business, because of the principle of sowing and harvesting in regard to the kingdom, they were putting the kingdom first. They were doing what God called them to do, whether it was having a shop, whether it was being a street vendor, and they were greatly prospering. And he pays for a 35, 000 seat auditorium. Cash, cash, cash.

[Cap Chatfield]

That's another thing.

[John Bevere]

It's paid for. The hospital is paid for. And I'm like, this is remarkable. I could not stop talking. I'm. Can I go a little further, please? His one son was born with the cord around his neck. And because they didn't have the proper equipment, they said, we're so sorry. Your son will have a point 0.02 IQ for the rest of his life. 0.02 IQ. He will never walk. He will never talk. So he was so distraught. And he said, lord, what. What do I do? What do I do? And the Holy Spirit asked him, he said, where do I live? The Lord said to him, where do I live? What's my address? And he said, heaven. You're in heaven. He said, no, I live inside you. He said, I want you to speak my word and speak a creative brain into your son, like I spoke when I created the world. So he said, every day I just start speaking. You have the mind of Christ, right? He said, at three years old, he started talking. He said. Then I started speaking over his legs and his mind and in his nervous system. At six years old, he walked. You ready for this? I'm ready for this.

[Cap Chatfield]

I don't know if I'm ready. Honestly.

[John Bevere]

I played crazy. I played golf with him, with the son. He's married with two children. Okay. I played golf with him. And so, you know, I'm. I'm sitting here and I'm going, this is why I looked at that pastor. I said, you are robbing your people right now.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yeah.

[John Bevere]

Is there. I watch this pastor in Indonesia who preaches the word of God, who's not ashamed of the word of God, who doesn't allow naysayers and doubters and Pharisees to. To alter what he preaches, because I might lose followers. 100. Can I tell you, sir, I'm. I'm a little older than you. I'm 67 this year. Okay. I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of you for listening to God. Because I remember when God told me to write a book back in the year 2000. I said, God, I write this book, everybody's going to persecute me. And I remember it was called thus sayeth the Lord, question mark. And all the people were giving personal prophecies back in the turn of the millennium. And I remember, boy, I got a lot of persecution. But, you know, God really blessed that book because so many lives were absolutely. People were writing in saying, oh, my gosh, this happened. And this happened. This happened because of your obedience. And my life has been turned around. And so I believe what's going to happen, Cap, is so many people are in. In your age group, the millennials, the Gen X's, Gen Z's, Gen X's, whatever, they're going to get this message and they're going to realize, hey, we've bought into a lie. It's a religious lie. And yes, it was perverted, but this is what God told me. And I want you to remember what I'm about to say. He said, son, if you're. He said, think like, Think like the devil, whatever is important in regard to my second coming. What are you going to do? You're going to try to pervert it? Not eliminate it, pervert it. So look at faith. Yeah, without faith, it's impossible to please God, right? So what does the enemy do? He raises up a bunch of faith teachers and make faith all about what I can get. So now people go, oh, you're a faith teacher, right? Yes, I am, because I want to please God. I'm not an unbelievable teacher, okay? I'm not an unbelief. But, but, but, but, but you cannot believe in the early 2000s, oh, you're a faith teacher. And. And so he perverted that. What do you do with holiness? Jesus? The only description of the church Jesus come back for is the holy church. You raise up a bunch of legalistic preachers who make holiness into a bunch of rules and regulations to control people. Instead of holiness is the doorway into intimacy with God, which it is. And now they've been stung by this legalistic holiness. And so you mention the word holy and they, they, they, they run, okay? Prosperity for us to accomplish the great commission of Jesus Christ. I got news for you. You know, when we print these, these millions of books, they don't say to us in all these countries, oh, you guys are printing the word of God. Are you kidding? We're printing these books in countries that persecute believers.

[Cap Chatfield]

Wow.

[John Bevere]

Okay. They don't go, oh, you're. You're preaching the word of God. Do you know, they actually told me I met with the Iran. It was two years ago. Lisa and I were in Yavan, Armenia, and the people from Iran said, hey, this is the border control for Iran. They said, see the book up there? Or see that book hanging on the wall over. It was all the chairs, you know, the people go in, right? I said, yeah. He said, that's your book, Beta Satan. The Iranian government put it on the wall saying, these books are being illegally distributed in this nation because we put over 4 million resources in Iran. We love the Persian people. And so I said, I guess I can't go to Iran, can I? And they laughed and said, no way. But, but see, how could I have. How could we have ever put all those resources into Iran, man, if our preaching said prosperity was evil? And it's not money that's the root of all evil. It's the love of money.

[Cap Chatfield]

Right?

[John Bevere]

And, Cap, I'm proud of you.

[Cap Chatfield]

Thank you.

[John Bevere]

Thank you for writing this book. Okay. Power to prosper. And it's Cap Chatfield. Go to Amazon, click the button because you're probably a prime member, and get it sent to you so you can get the word of God, what God says about this and not what religious people are trying to stop you from doing. But here's the most important thing. Heard you say the whole program, you get you started seeking first.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yes.

[John Bevere]

The kingdom of God. That is where we got it backwards.

[Cap Chatfield]

Y.

[John Bevere]

We saw. Because. Because I'm. I'm. I'm going to close it with this. Listen to me carefully. I'm. I'm. I'm in worship in a conference. And the Holy Spirit asked me, he said, son, do you know what a religious spirit is? I said, I've written on it, I've preached on it. I've heard other people preach on it. But, God, I know you don't ask questions to get information. So obviously, because you're asking me this. I obviously don't know what a religious spirit is. I said, so what is a religious spirit? And the Holy Spirit spoke to me so clear, he said, it is a person who uses my word to execute his own will.

[Cap Chatfield]

Oh, wow.

[John Bevere]

So here's what the prosperity teaching that turn people off did. It was telling people how to use God's word to get their lustful desires, where you and I are just trying to say, God wants you to prosper so we can reach the world.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yes.

[John Bevere]

And make disciples of all nations.

[Cap Chatfield]

Yep.

[John Bevere]

Cap, I'm so proud of you.

[Cap Chatfield]

Thank you, man.

[John Bevere]

Thank you for coming on again. Cap Chatfield. The Power to Prosper. That's the title of the book. And you know what? We got a link for you right in the description. You can just click on it and you'll be able to buy the book. This has been the Jamba Veer podcast. I'm so honored to have you on. And until next time, stay in the will of God and stay in the word of God.