The Rapture, The Antichrist, & The Mark of the Beast w/ Rick Renner

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Rapture, The Antichrist, & The Mark of the Beast w/ Rick Renner
The John Bevere Podcast | April 3, 2026
Host: John Bevere (Messenger International)
Guest: Rick Renner (Author, Pastor, Greek Scholar)

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Overview

In this episode, John Bevere hosts acclaimed pastor and Greek scholar Rick Renner for an in-depth conversation about end-times theology, inspired by Renner's recent book The Rapture, the Antichrist, and the Tribulation. Together, they tackle common questions and misconceptions about the end of the age, the identity and timing of the Antichrist, the mark of the beast, and the implications of current events for believers today. The episode oscillates between biblical exegesis, personal testimony, and a pastoral call to wakefulness and faithfulness in a spiritually complacent age.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Decline of Eschatological Teaching in the Church

• Renner laments the diminishing focus on end-times teaching ("this has almost disappeared from the American church" [00:00]).
• John Bevere agrees, estimating that many avoid the topic due to its divisiveness and fear-inducing reputation ([05:02]).

2. Personal Backgrounds and Hesitations

• Rick Renner shares how childhood exposure to “scary” rapture preaching led him to avoid the topic for 40 years ([03:49–05:02]).
• John Bevere echoes this sentiment, admitting he would openly say from the pulpit that he didn’t preach on the second coming ([05:02]).

3. Clarifying the “Rapture”

• Origins of the Word: Renner explains the Latin and Greek origins—‘rapture’ comes from the Latin translation of the Greek harpazo, meaning “to catch away, to seize abruptly” ([07:16]).
  • “It describes something very, very abrupt.” —Rick Renner [07:26]
• Biblical Precedent: Not only the Church, but figures throughout scripture (Enoch, Elijah, Jesus) have been “raptured.”
  • “It’s not a new concept.” —Rick Renner [08:10]

4. The Purifying Power of End-Time Teaching

• Bevere underlines how awareness of Christ’s return refines and untethers believers from worldly attachments ([08:34]).

5. Who Will Be Raptured?—Exploring “Alive” and “Remain”

• Paul’s Language (1 Thessalonians): The Greek words for “alive” (zao) and “remain” carry deep meaning ([11:30]).
  • Alive: “Those that are really on fire, really alive.”
  • Remain: A “remnant,” likened to fabric leftovers or soldiers who stayed to the end.
  • “He’s coming for those that are engaged. It’s probably not going to be a very big group.” —Rick Renner [13:56]
• Implication: Being counted as part of the rapture is closely linked to spiritual vibrancy and endurance, not just nominal faith.

6. The Vitality (or Lack Thereof) in the Church

• Bevere highlights Jesus’ warning to the church at Sardis: a reputation for life can mask spiritual death ([14:28]).
• Renner unpacks the difference:
  • The Thessalonians were alive (new, fervent, foundational teaching), while Sardis was coasting on its past ([17:06]).
  • “They had already lost the life... living on the reputation of what they once were.” —Rick Renner [17:20]

7. Eternal Perspective and Discipleship

• Bevere shares a story from Brazil, contrasting eternal focus in non-American churches with the “70 or 80 year perspective” he finds in the US church ([19:20–22:39]).
• Core foundations like resurrection, rewards, and judgment are often neglected in American discipleship, leading to spiritual immaturity.

8. Pastoral Responsibility and Biblical Literacy

• Renner asserts that pastors’ reluctance to teach eschatology has left a “gaping hole” in believers’ lives ([22:49]).
  • “It's like an art form that nobody even knows.” —Rick Renner [23:33]
• Expository teaching is called for: “We are to speak on behalf of the Lord and the verse by verse teaching...” —Rick Renner [23:18]

9. Who (or What) Is the Antichrist and the Restrainer?

• Debunking Myths: The vaccine, digital IDs, and other modern phenomena are not the “mark of the beast”—the Bible is clear on the sequence ([25:16–26:00]).
• Falling Away (Apostasy): “Describes a mutinous attitude or a rebellion...the world’s going to begin to throw away the law of God.” —Rick Renner [26:00]
• The Restrainer: “Can only be the Church.” Not the Holy Spirit, Roman Senate, or other historical guesses ([29:18–31:13]).
  • “The Holy Spirit will always be here, the only one that’s going to be removed...can only be the church.” —Rick Renner [30:13]

10. When Will the Antichrist Be Revealed?

• After the Rapture: “The Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is...the curtain’s going to pull back...the whole world will know.” —Rick Renner [27:58]

11. Conjecture: The World’s Explanation for the Rapture

• “Probably...they’re going to think...the universe has evaporated those people that are standing in the way of progress, or...UFOs have evacuated all these people.” —Rick Renner [33:28]

12. Distinguishing Tribulation and Tribulation Saints

• The Church removed: Persecution during the tribulation relates to “those that are saved during the tribulation” and possibly Israel ([36:01]).
  • “That’s a different time period. That’s not you and me.” —Rick Renner [36:20]

13. Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Interpretations

• “If it’s post-trib, what if it’s at the end of the seven years? Well then, we were all wrong by just a few years. Big deal. The fact is Jesus is coming.” —Rick Renner [36:56]
• It will get so dark before the rapture that “you’re gonna feel like you’re living in the tribulation.” [36:57]

14. The Need for Uncompromised Leadership in the Church

• Renner and Bevere agree: the Church needs leaders, not politicians.
  • “Politicians are concerned about what people think. Leaders are concerned about what God’s saying.” —John Bevere [41:44]
  • “We’ve already been there and done that, tried to build popularity...Now let’s do what’s important.” —Rick Renner [42:20]

15. A Prayer for a Faithful Generation

• Both men close in heartfelt prayer, asking for bold, truth-telling leaders, and for a church marked by true, Spirit-led engagement, not popularity ([43:00–44:52]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [07:26] Rick Renner: "It describes something very, very abrupt. For example, the kingdom of God is advancing, and the violent do what? Take it by force. That's the word harpazo translated rapture."
• [13:56] Rick Renner: "He's coming for those that are engaged. And it's probably not going to be a very big group."
• [19:20] John Bevere: "...the American church has a 70 or 80 year perspective. He said, our people have an eternal perspective..."
• [22:49] Rick Renner: "This has almost disappeared from the American church. I believe it's one of the greatest problems."
• [27:58] Rick Renner: "When the Rapture occurs, when the church is evacuated, the Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is because the curtains are closed. But the moment the church is revealed, in that precise moment, the curtains are going to pull back..."
• [30:13] Rick Renner: "The Holy Spirit will always be here, the only one that's going to be removed from the middle of everything, it can only be the Church."
• [36:56] Rick Renner: "We believe in a pre trib rapture. However, it's gonna get so dark before the rapture happens, you're gonna feel like you're living in the tribulation. And that's a pretty safe answer. And I believe that is the truth."
• [41:44] John Bevere: "We need leaders, not politicians. Politicians are concerned about what people think. Leaders are concerned about what God's saying."
• [43:29] Rick Renner: "...you help us to speak the truth with such an anointing that people will say, wow, that hurts, but that feels good. I needed that."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – The American church’s neglect of end-times teaching
• 03:49 – Renner’s personal avoidance of the Rapture topic
• 07:16 – Explanation of ‘rapture’ and harpazo
• 11:12 – Bevere introduces “alive and remain” language
• 13:56 – Only the engaged and enduring will be raptured?
• 14:28 – Sardis: A reputation for life but spiritually dead churches
• 19:20 – Story of the Brazilian church’s eternal perspective
• 22:49 – The gaping hole left by the absence of end-times teaching
• 25:16 – Clarifying Antichrist, restrainer, and the mark of the beast
• 27:58 – The Antichrist revealed after the Rapture
• 31:13 – The “restrainer” is the church, not the Holy Spirit
• 33:28 – How might the world explain the Rapture?
• 36:01 – Difference between Church and Tribulation saints
• 36:56 – Pre-tribulation or post-tribulation debates (“Big deal, Jesus is coming.”)
• 41:44 – On the need for leaders, not politicians
• 43:00–44:52 – Closing prayers for a pure, bold Church

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Final Encouragement & Call to Action

• [45:17] Rick Renner: “Let’s just be faithful.”
• [45:23] John Bevere: “What Jesus? Jesus said, what I say to you, Peter, I say to all: watch.”
• [46:03] – Endorsement of Renner’s book as a resource for believers wanting to keep their spiritual lamps burning bright.

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Summary in a Sentence

Rick Renner and John Bevere urge the Church to regain its biblical foundation and anticipation of Christ’s return, warning that only those who remain spiritually vibrant and faithful will be raptured, and that now more than ever, the Church must raise up unafraid leaders rooted in eternal truth amid growing end-times confusion and deception.

Transcript

[Rick Renner]

You look right now at what's going on in the Middle east, all these peace treaties, it's a little scary. This has almost disappeared from the American church. That's. I believe that's one of the greatest problems. Pastors themselves are not established in truth about end time events. They are afraid to touch those events. There is a great big gapping hole in our life.

[John Bevere]

You mentioned something that I found to be quite interesting. People thought that the vaccine was the, the beast. Now they're Talking about digital IDs being the mark of the beast. I want you to address and talk about this guy called the Antichrist.

[Rick Renner]

What would happen if suddenly there was no church? And the Bible then says in verse eight, and then that evil one shall be revealed. When the Rapture occurs, when the church is evacuated, the Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is because the curtains are closed. But the moment the church is revealed, in that precise moment, the curtains are going to pull back and that's when this potlight is going to fall on him and the whole world will know his identity. We are getting really close now. You and I haven't talked about this, so I don't know if I'm. Maybe I'm treading on bad ground.

[John Bevere]

Hey everyone. Welcome to the John Bevere podcast. We have a very special podcast today. As you can see, Arden's not on with me and that's because I'm joined by my long time friend who I admire so much. I mean, this is amazing. He is a friend. We have shopped together, we have eaten and talked and. But yet I have so much respect for this man of God that I actually get a little giddy, a little starstruck when I'm around him. And that is because this man of God has done so much for the body of Christ. I remember when I was in my church, just driving guest speakers around, he was already well known in the body of Christ. And that is none other than Rick Renner, who moved to Moscow in the early 90s, late 80s, realizing that he might be martyred for his faith. But I have, I know no one who has studied the word of God asking the Holy Spirit's help more completely and soundly. He is a Greek theologian. I know he pro. That's probably not his formal title, but anytime I have questions on the Greek, I go to Rick. But Rick, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to have you on the podcast. Our family loves Rick and Denise and your entire family so very much. We're so Grateful for what you've done for the body of Christ. Welcome to the jamba of your podcast.

[Rick Renner]

Well, I'm glad to be with you and everything you said about me, I could say about you, I love you. And by the way, I think you and Arden are doing a great job. I love, I love what you're doing together.

[John Bevere]

The reason we are on today is we're here to talk about Rick's brand new book. Now it's a couple months old. I, I was a little late because I was so busy writing a book that we kept scheduling this and rescheduling it. But it's the Rapture, the Antichrist and the Tribulation. I just want to say that I have gone through a good section of this book. It is the most comprehensive scripturally sound books that I have seen on the second coming of Jesus in particularly the catching away of the church, the Antichrist and the Tribulation. Rick, I just want you to go. I'm going to interject. I'm going to ask questions. I might bring some, some of the things that God is dealing with me about in it. But tell me, how does this progress? You have Rapture, you have Antichrist, you have tribulation. Talk to our viewers right now about where we are in God's time clock.

[Rick Renner]

Can I begin by telling you about my personal experience with this subject?

[John Bevere]

Yes.

[Rick Renner]

Well, I grew up as a Southern Baptist, and every year we had revival meetings in our church, usually twice a year. And usually one of the nights the evangelist would preach on the Rapture and John would scare the wits out of me. I mean, it would make me question my salvation, make me wonder if I was really saved. And it seemed like the whole subject of the Rapture was so scary. And the Bible says you're supposed to comfort one another when you talk about the Rapture. Well, I didn't find it comforting at all. And then when I came to the university and I was studying journalism and I was studying classical Greek, a book came out that kind of debunked the Rapture and tried to say that it was a creation that took place in the 1900s and the 1800s, that it really wasn't apostolic teaching and people were dividing over the subject of the Rapture. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to stay away from this subject. I don't want to lose anybody I could reach. And it seems like it scares people or it's a lightning rod that divides people. And John, I ran from this subject for 40 years.

[John Bevere]

I did the exact Same thing. I used to brag about how I wouldn't preach a message on the second coming. I would even say it from the pulpit. I don't talk about this because I saw the way it divided people and it was a trigger. But go ahead. I just find that amazing, but go ahead.

[Rick Renner]

Well, then during COVID I began to listen to what people were saying, and I heard somebody say, somebody that I love and respect very much, but they said, you need to be careful because the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Well, if people don't want to take the vaccine, fine. I mean, that's their choice, but it's not the mark of the beast. And I thought, you know, people are so confused about end time things. And I felt like maybe it's finally time for me to step into this arena. And John, you and I are almost the same age. I'm a little bit older than you. But, you know, when you finally reach a certain age, you kind of, you have a platform where you can address a subject. And we're not trying to garner an audience. We're not trying to get likes. We're just trying to speak as God's spokesman to address an issue that needs to be addressed. And so that's why I decided to step into this arena. And I begin, first of all, to address the argument that the word rapture does not appear in the Bible, because that's a big argument. People say, oh, that word's not even in the Bible. So where does the word rapture come from? Well, it is a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo. So St. Jerome, who crawled up in a cave in Bethlehem right next to the place where Jesus was born. And for 23 years, Jerome created the first translation of the Holy Scriptures into the Latin language. The first. And when he came to that word harpazo, which means to catch away, he translated it as the Latin word rapture. Well, his work was so monumental, it ruled for a thousand years. And so that word rapture found its way into vocabulary, and it stuck. But it's actually a translation of a Greek word which means to be abducted, to be caught up, to violently seize. It describes something very, very abrupt. And I document in that book how Jesus used the word rapture, the Greek word harpazo, 12 or 13 times in the Gospels. And it always means the very same thing. For example, the kingdom of God is advancing, and the violent do what? Take it by force. That's the word harpazo translated rapture. And so it really describes a moment when Jesus is going to descend into the lower atmosphere. Paul describes this in First Thessalonians, chapter 14. There's going to be the sound of a trumpet. There's going to be the voice of the archangel, and Jesus is going to Harpazo. He's going to seize his. His church and literally evacuate us from planet Earth. Now, there are people who say that's a pipe dream, that's a fantasy. But John, they don't know the Bible because the Bible is filled with raptures. Enoch was raptured, Elijah was raptured. Jesus was raptured. It's not a new concept. But for God to do it with one or to do it with all of us at one time, it's not a big feat for the Lord. But that really is coming in the near future, and that's probably the next big event. What do you think?

[John Bevere]

I couldn't agree more with what you've said. And it's interesting that our paths have been the same. I felt an absolute urge of the Holy Spirit to start talking about the Second Coming. What I found out is that it makes us purer. It keeps us untethered from the world. It keeps us with the awareness that we are strangers, pilgrims and sojourners passing through this world and that our real home is with Jesus. Where he is. That's where we will be. He actually said that. We're going to take a break in the conversation. I will get right back to it quickly. But I want to talk to you about how I study my Bible. I mean, for decades I've used Logos, and in fact, for this podcast, I actually was in using the AI feature. Arden, talk about it. Yeah, I mean, Logos will just take your Bible study just so much deeper. It will give you the amazing context, the understanding. And they have actually have two offers. Number one is it is completely free for any of our listeners that are listening. They can sign up and get free for up to 60 days. Then the other offer is you. If you already have Logos, they have a massive resource bundle that actually includes a lot of our resources that they're selling for 90% off. And so they can find all of this information over at Logos Bevere. And I want to make sure all of you understand the AI does not pull from the Internet. It pulls only from your books that you have in your library on Logos. So when I say I used it, I asked it the question and it gave me the scripture references and what the commentary say on it really quickly. I didn't use it to do my outline of my notes. I used it to be able to enhance what I was already going to say to you. So this is where it will greatly help you. If you're doing personal studies or if you're teaching a small group, I encourage you, Please go to logos.com forward/, bevere, and sign up today. And so I. I am, first of all amazed at how many people make light of it, mock it, make fun of it. And Peter told us this would happen. There would actually be scoffers and mockers say, come on, everything's remained the same since the fathers fell asleep. That. And, and what I find that is interesting is Peter said, most importantly, I want you to remember, first of all, they're going to come along. And second of all, a day with the Lord is a thousand years. But, Rick, in your book, you talk about something that really caught my attention, something that I haven't heard anybody else discuss.

[Rick Renner]

Well, what was it?

[John Bevere]

It's where Paul writes two times, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with the Lord, the word alive and the word remain. Could you amplify that for our viewers?

[Rick Renner]

I will. And, John, it really took me off guard because I did not know what those words meant. And when you read them in the Greek, they are verbatim word for word, repeated twice. Well, you know that when something's repeated twice in a very fast sequence, you need to stand up and really pay attention.

[John Bevere]

Right.

[Rick Renner]

The word alive is a form of the word zao, which means to be filled with gust, zest, life, vibrancy. And it's plural. And it really describes the living ones, the vibrant ones, those that are really engaged, really spiritually alive. It's not just those that are alive at this time, but it's the living ones, the ones that are really on fire, really alive. Then when you come to those that remain, it's kind of an explanation about the vibrant ones. That word remain is the Greek word which describes a small piece of fabric. It's really the word for a remnant leftover from the greater amount of material. So the bigger amount's gone, it's been lost, it's been used up for some reason. It's been thrown away, and now a little remnant remains. And it's also a word that was used militarily to describe a group of soldiers who lasted longer than anybody else. When everybody else bailed out and ran away, this was the group who stayed on the front lines to the very end. And so when you put these two words together, which Paul repeats twice, it really means the living ones, those that are spiritually engaged and are vibrant. I'm talking about the ones that will still be remaining who have lived through it all, not surrendered and have remained engaged to the very end, the remnant at the very end. And John, it really implies that it might be a remnant. And for me, this really brought light on what Jesus said about, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth? And that worked fine. Is the Greek word eu risco. It describes a real serious investigative search. It means that when Jesus comes, he's going to have to really look for living faith. And if you put that together with what Paul said, he's coming for those that are spiritually engaged and it might be a small remnant. It looks like it's going to be a smaller group than maybe what I previously thought. Now, John, this scares a lot of people. They say immediately, well, does that mean that every Christian is not going to go in the rapture? John, I cannot answer that question based on, based on those verses. My answer has to be, I don't know. But I do know what it says. He's coming for those that are engaged. And it's probably not going to be a very big group.

[John Bevere]

There's another scripture. I mean, there's so much that comes to mind as you talk about this. First of all, I noticed this church called Sardis. Jesus says in the new living translation, you have a reputation for being alive, but you're dead. I'm like, whoa, he's not talking to the city, he's talking to this church. So what gives a person a reputation for being alive? They have cutting edge music, they have cutting edge, you know, services. People are flocking in, yet they have this reputation of being alive, but they're dead. But then Jesus makes this very interesting statement. He says, if you don't change, you don't change. I'm going to come to you as a thief in the night. Then I go over to when Paul writes the Thessalonian Church, and he says, this day is not going to surprise you because you're sons and daughters of the light. Then I also think about the 10 virgins. Five of them have enough oil in their vessels to make it to the end. The other five have enough oil in their. Have enough oil to get along for a time period, but at the end, they don't have enough. Kind of adds to what Jesus says to him, who endures the end shall be saved. Now, I'm going to say all of that before I turn this back over to you is I don't believe in A fear based eschatology. I believe in a faith based eschatology. I personally find that there are people, and I believe this about the unwise virgins. They're going to do whatever they think is required to be saved because maybe they possibly don't have a passionate heart that's in love with Jesus. And I look at the virgins that do have enough oil and could it be that they lay down their lives because Jesus is saying to churches, buy from me gold refined in fire, buy from me white garment. And so I know I've just said a lot, but I want to throw a lot on the table for you to work with because I, and I want to end it with this. I want to end it with the fact that how can the Thessalonians church, how can Paul write to them and say, but it won't happen as a thief in the night for you. You won't be taken by surprise because you're children of the light. And how can Jesus say to a church, I'm going to come to you as a thief if you don't change any thoughts on this?

[Rick Renner]

Well, I think one was alive and one was sleeping. You know the Thessalonian Church, when Paul wrote to them, they were still new believers. And you know what, John? Scholars believe that when Paul was in Thessalonica, he was not with them more than eight weeks. That's not very long.

[John Bevere]

No, it's not.

[Rick Renner]

And in eight weeks, you would think that he would just deal with the very basics of salvation. But when he wrote to them in second Thessalonians, he said, you already know about all this eschatology because I told you about all of it when I was there.

[John Bevere]

Wow.

[Rick Renner]

So if Paul did that with new believers in eight weeks, we need to be doing this. But when you come to the church of Sardis, that's a completely different question. Because they had a reputation that they were alive. They were living on a past reputation. But Jesus said, in reality, you're dead. And the word dead is the word for a corpse. You're as dead as a corpse. You're just a cadaver. So they had already lost the life, they had lost what they once had. And now they were living on the reputation of what they once were. And I think that our faith has to be engaged. And I'll give you an example from my life. Just recently there were many predictions, as you're well aware, that Jesus was going to come during the Feast of trumpets sometime between September 23rd and the 25th. Well, I do not Believe in date setting, but every broken clock is correct twice a day. So if you make a prediction Jesus is coming, eventually somebody is going to be right along the way. So I thought, all right, well, what if they are right? What if Jesus is going to come on September 23rd, 24th through 25th? And you know what, as I begin to think about that, I began to think, you know, if I really had a date that I thought that he was coming, I think that I would just straighten up in a lot of areas of my life. It would affect my prayer life. I couldn't think of anybody I needed to forgive. But if I needed to, I certainly would have done it. I mean, I would want to be vibrant when he is coming. And I think the church of Thessalonica was vibrant. I mean, in eight weeks, Paul pounded that theology into them that Jesus was coming very quickly and they were living for that. Whereas the church of Sardis. Thirty years had passed, Jesus hadn't come, and they were kind of living on the fumes of a past movement.

[John Bevere]

Wow.

[Rick Renner]

Isn't that amazing?

[John Bevere]

Yes, it is. You know, when I was In Brazil in 2016, I was asked to speak to 12,000 pastors and leaders of a church movement. The church movement has over 300,000 people. And I remember when I walked in to that arena with just the pastors and home group leaders and there was 12,000 of them and they were blowing the roof off the arena. I mean, you talk about alive. So the next day I'm having lunch with eight of the top pastors and we're talking. And I said, guys, I just need to ask how many people are in your churches? And they said, well, over 300,000. We don't even know. But we do know for sure it's over 300,000. I said, so when did this movement begin? I said, did it begin like 120 years ago? Who's the founder? And they said, oh, well, you met the founder last night. Pastor Aloysu is his name. And he said he couldn't be at this lunch because he had another appointment, but he started this entire church network 16 years ago with just his family and Rick. I literally put down my fork and I said, how in the world do you build a church network of over 300,000 people in a country, a first world country, in just 16 years? And the pastor was sitting across the table. He spoke the best English, and he said, without even hesitating, he goes, it's because we teach our people on eternal rewards and losses, the resurrection of the dead, and Our positions in the millennial kingdom. I said, wait a minute. What? What? And he goes, john, look. He said, I go to a lot American conferences because I speak good English. I get asked to speak English at these conferences. He said, I've noticed something different about the American church. And Archer, he said, the American church has a 70 or 80 year perspective. He said, our people have an eternal perspective because we put that in them. And I remember thinking to myself, the resurrection of the dead, eternal rewards and judgment is number five and six of the foundations of our faith. And I thought, it's the elementary teaching. And what do you get in elementary school? How to read, write, add, subtract. Right. How do we build our life, okay, Build our educational life of high school and college without knowing how to read, write, add or subtract. So if you're a church that's 30 years old and you've been building for 30 years, not knowing how to read, write, add or subtract in the spirit, because you're avoiding maybe one of the most important, important things. I mean, it's a foundation of our faith. Maybe that's the big difference between Thessalonica and Sardis, and maybe that's the big difference between the American church and the Iranian church, the Brazilian church, is that we're not emphasizing the second coming of Jesus as much. And what's your thoughts on that? I mean, it shocked me, Rick. It really did.

[Rick Renner]

John. This has almost disappeared from the American church.

[John Bevere]

Yes, I know.

[Rick Renner]

I believe it's one of the greatest problems. If you walked into a classroom and you saw a man that was 60 years old sitting at a little tiny desk in a room of first graders and found out he had been sitting in that little chair for 40, 50 years, you would not think that's cute. You would think that's sad. That's the condition of the American church. They're still in first grade, They've not been taught. And I'm a pastor and I love pastors, so I am not knocking pastors. But John, your ministry is messenger. We are God's messengers. We are to speak on behalf of the Lord and the verse by verse teaching of the scripture, which you do so well. And I want to say thank you for what you do. It has almost disappeared from the church. It's like an art form that nobody even knows. And I believe that one of the problems is that pastors themselves are not established in truth, about end time events. They are afraid to touch those events. I think a lot of pastors are afraid that if they do touch those events. They might lose some people from their church or they might scare somebody. And so they've kind of backed off on this when in fact John says in First John, chapter three, that when you have this hope in you, it purifies you. It purifies you. And when we don't have the verse by verse teaching of the Scripture and when we're not established in end time events, there's a great big gapping hole in our life. And right now I'm addressing this subject. You're about to address it in one of your new books. And I'm so glad about your book that you're going to be releasing about this. And you want those that are addressing the Rapture, the second coming, end time events. Right now there's a flood of people coming to us because they want somebody to address these questions and they want it to be somebody they can trust and they're foundational.

[John Bevere]

Let me ask you this, because you mentioned something that I found to be quite interesting. People thought that the vaccine was the mark of the beast. Now they're Talking about digital IDs being the mark of the beast. I want you to address and talk about this guy called the Antichrist.

[Rick Renner]

Okay?

[John Bevere]

He's, he's only called that one time in First John, but he's called, you know, the man of lawlessness, the man of sin. I mean, we, there's so many names for him. I want you to amplify because I personally don't feel we're even going to know who he is as a, as a vibrant church. And that's why I kind of go, why are you saying this is the mark of the beast? Could you kind of expound on that?

[Rick Renner]

Well, in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, Paul says that day is not going to come until there's a falling away first. This is what you and your son recently talked about. That was so excellent. And that word falling away. Some people today are trying to say that describes the rapture of the Church. It does not. That is so silly. It's the Greek word apostasy, which always describes a mutinous attitude or a rebellion. So Paul says, you're going to know when you've come to the very end of the age because there's going to be a world modification that takes place. The world's going to begin to throw away the law of God. It's going to be modified until it's almost like in society there's a worldwide mutiny against the law of God. Well, we're living in that day. And when you go on further, Paul talks about the great restrainer. In Greek. It is the word cat echo. The word cat means down. The word echo means to hold. It's the one who holds down, the one who suppresses, the one who's stalling, putting on the brakes. And the Bible says, whoever this restrainer is, he's holding back the appearance of the Antichrist. And then when you get to 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 7, it says, the one that is restraining will continue to restrain until. Here's the clincher. He be taken out, be taken out of the way. And when you read that in the Greek text, it says, until he's removed from the midst of everything. Well, who's in the midst of everything? We are. We're in society. We're in the medical field, we're educational world. We are everywhere. But what would happen if suddenly there was no church, if there was no restrainer holding evil at bay? It would just rush in like a mighty force. And the Bible then says in verse eight, and then that evil one shall be revealed. And the word then means then at that precise moment, that evil one, not just any evil one, but that evil one. There's a definite article. The evil one will be revealed. And the word revealed is a form of the word apocalypto. It describes the pulling apart of curtains. And here's what it means.

[John Bevere]

Wow.

[Rick Renner]

It means when the Rapture occurs, when the church is evacuated, the Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is because the curtains are closed. But the moment the church is revealed, in that precise moment, the curtains are going to pull back. And that's when the spotlight's going to fall on him and the whole world will know his identity. Well, both the Antichrist and the mark of the beast, then it all follows the rapture of the church. Now, again, you and I are about the same age. So we remember growing up, people were guessing, who's the Antichrist? They thought Anwar Sadat. They were just sure that was the Antichrist. Then everybody was sure it was Gorbachev because he had that mark on, that mark on his head.

[John Bevere]

Henry Kissinger.

[Rick Renner]

Henry Kissinger. Oh, it's got to be Henry Kissinger. I mean, the list is long. And today the guessing game continues. And you know what? It's a mute point. Nobody will know who he is until the church is gone. And the moment we are removed, that curtain's going to pull apart and this man is going, okay, there's going to be.

[John Bevere]

There's going to be. Some people are going to argue with you, Rick. They're going to say, hey, in my new King James Version, it says the restrainer is he. Capital H. That's got to be the Holy Spirit. Talk about that.

[Rick Renner]

Well, that's. That's pretty. It's a mystery because when you read that text, the restrainers referred to with a masculine, a feminine and a neuter. It's amazing. But if you look at it, it can only be the church. Okay, John, in the beginning, the early church thought it was the Roman Senate that was holding back the emperor. They really believed that. Well, obviously it wasn't right. Then they thought it's Michael the Archangel because Michael the Archangel in Scripture always deals with evil. And then there was the thought that it's the preaching of the gospel. Well, we know the preaching of the gospel does drive back darkness. And then there was the thought that it's the Holy Spirit. But it can't be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is never going to be removed from the earth. There's going to be people saved during the tribulation, and you can't be saved without the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

[John Bevere]

That's what I wanted you to say.

[Rick Renner]

The Holy Spirit will always be here, the only one that's going to be removed from the middle of everything. It can only be the Church.

[John Bevere]

Think about how narcissistic society would become without the influence of the church like that. It would be. I mean, there would be no more first. First. What do you call it? A red cross. There would be no. Probably no nursing homes. Our hospitals would be like almost like places that if you're in this condition, they're just going to let you die. I mean, it is the compassion of God in the church that is, I believe, restraining the force of lawlessness. And, Rick, something you didn't say that I want to make sure everybody knows is the translators of the new King James took the liberty to put capital H. It does not read that way in the Greek. Am I correct or incorrect in what I just said? And please feel free to say, no, John, you're incorrect.

[Rick Renner]

No, you're correct. But in the riv, which is the Renner interpretive version, I call it the force that's holding it all back. It's us, John. It's us.

[John Bevere]

Because it's an entity.

[Rick Renner]

It's an entity. But you know what? We are getting really close now. You and I haven't talked about this, so I don't know if maybe I'm treading on bad Ground. But if you look right now at what's going on in the Middle east, all these peace treaties, it's a little scary. Ay, ay, yai. And the Bible says, when everybody says peace and safety, beware peace and safety, because destruction is right on the heels. And I believe we're living, John. We are living right on the very cusp of all this stuff taking place. And the truth is, you know, you can cook a frog and he doesn't know he's being cooked. I think we're probably living in the very depths of it already that we don't realize it because we're just in it every day. And we become numb to the reality of what we're experiencing. But we are really living the fulfillment of. Of what prophets prophesied. And think how privileged we are that God is allowing us to be the ones to be here. When I was growing up, we played tag. Did you ever play tag? Yes, I loved to play it until I got tagged. But, you know, somebody has to be the last generation. And God has tagged us. He said, tag. You're it. You're going to play the game at the end of the age. And that's us. That is us.

[John Bevere]

All right, let's talk about Harpazo. Okay, so the dead in Christ are going to be raised. Then we together with them are going to be caught up with the Lord in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. How is the world going to respond now? I'm getting into kind of conjecture territory right now. Okay, how's the world gonna answer the people that if that, you know, tens of millions of people have suddenly disappeared, they're gone. How's the world gonna handle that? Do you any insight on that? And I realize this is pure conjecture right now?

[Rick Renner]

Well, second, Thessalonians 2 says that God's going to send them a spirit of delusion. Well, when you're deluded, you can't see things straight. So probably in a deluded state, they're going to think that somehow the universe has evaporated. Those people that are standing in the way of progress, or a lot of people are even speculating that there will be the story that UFOs have evacuated all these people. John. I don't know. I mean, there are so many possibilities. But the fact is we're going to be evacuated. We really are correct. And those who scoff at us for believing that don't realize they're fulfilling scripture every time they scoff. Because in the Last days mockers shall come. Every time they mock at us, they're fulfilling. Second Peter, chapter three. But John, I'm so glad we won't be here during that time.

[John Bevere]

Okay, so Jesus said, the gates of hell shall not conquer overcome the church. I mean, I look at the assassination of Charlie Kirk. A seed went into the ground. Rick, you may not know this, but there were 1500 of his Turning Point USA chapters in schools when he was shot, the day he was shot. You know, now there's over 80,000, 80,000 chapters of Turning Point USA. The church cannot be stopped. There are, I mean, more people being martyred in this generation than ever before. And it's probably because there are more people on the earth. But there is tribulation that the saints are going through. It's not the tribulation because the tribulation is the wrath of God. However, I look at what's happening in the earth right now and the church can't be conquered. But yet we're told this guy, this man of sin is going to be able to conquer and he's going to be given permission by heaven to literally destroy whatever he wants to destroy. And he's going to destroy the saints. Now people are going to argue. They're going to say, well see, the saints are going to be here and we're going to be, you know, having to hide and he's going to be annihilating people. How do you explain that?

[Rick Renner]

It's talking about tribulation Saints. It's those that are saved during the tribulation. It's a completely different subject. The church is already gone. Those are the people that are going to save during the tribulation. And it could also refer to Israel. The Bible says he's going to wear them down. I mean he's really going to wage war against them because they don't take the mark of the beast, they don't swear their allegiance to him, so he's all out after them. But that's a different time period. That's not you and me. But you know what John? Some people say, well okay Rick, you believe in a pre trib rapture. What if it's post trib? What if it's at the end of the seven years? Well then we were all wrong by just a few years. Big deal. It's no big deal. We're talking seven years or three and a half years if you're a mid tribber, who cares? The fact is Jesus is coming and

[John Bevere]

you know, that's so good.

[Rick Renner]

The man who trained Me in ministry. He said, rick, here's the way you answer. People say it like this. We believe in a pre trib rapture. However, it's gonna get so dark before the rapture happens, you're gonna feel like you're living in the tribulation. And that's a pretty safe answer. And I believe that is the truth.

[John Bevere]

I do too.

[Rick Renner]

You know, I was listening to you the other day and I was thinking, boy, John is really swimming upstream against the current. Because there's a lot of talk that, you know, it's just life is gonna get better and the church is gonna get better and there is gonna be a visitation. We know that. And there currently is a visitation. But you're really talking about how society is also going to get dark as we go forward. And John, we need to keep our head on straight. I mean, we need to pay attention to what the Bible says and we need to really undergird ourselves for what's coming in the days to come.

[John Bevere]

Well, the thing that you said earlier, you know, we're both about the same age. You just, you don't care about clicks, you don't care about how many followers, you care about the truth being declared and you care about people. I know when, before I was 50, what I would look at first when I went to a conference is how many people are attending, or if I went to a church, how many people attend this church. It's so funny when Sometime in my 50s, first thing I looked at is how well loved is the pastor's wife. What are, what are his children like? And I started realizing the more important things. And you just, you kind of get something that only age gives you when you walk with God consistently for years, decades, right?

[Rick Renner]

Yep.

[John Bevere]

And I, I, I'm not interested in people. I mean, Lisa just came up to me and said, do you realize that your son had about 10 people that came up to him at this conference recently and said they didn't like what you were saying on your pod? I said, no, I didn't know that. And I had to just say to myself, I don't care because I love people enough to tell them the truth. And I know you love people enough to tell them the truth. And Rick, what really intrigued me when you started talking about this, because you did about a two years ago, I noticed and I've listened to you so many times now as I thought Rick couldn't care less if he loses followers. He couldn't care less because his love for humanity is so much greater than his love for Having followers. And I wish all the leaders in the body of Christ would get a love for humanity that's greater than the love for how many are following us. I don't find a lot of people following Jeremiah. I don't find a lot of people really adhering to and sticking close with John the Baptist. I find them coming out to listen because there's an anointing on them. But I, I just, I just hope and pray and this is my prayer when I'm praying. God, raise up leaders who all they care about is what you say. I don't care about what people say. They love people enough to tell them the truth. And it's, it's. I, it. It's what I think a lot about. I think a lot about the fact that Jesus talks about deception so much right before his second coming that the love of many are going to grow cold because lawlessness is going to bound and love the word, love being agape. I'm so concerned about a church, an American church right now that's been lulled to sleep and with all my heart I want to see him woken up. I don't want to see him entertained. I don't want to see them comforted when there is no comfort. Because God said to Jeremiah, you say peace, peace. When there is no peace, you are healing their wounds superficially. We have got to start speaking the word of God. That may cut, that may operate. I'm sure everybody that goes under the knife when a surgeon takes out what's going to kill them doesn't like it at the time. But boy, five months later, they're so pleased with what that surgeon did to lengthen their life on earth. And I just want to. I just want you to pray because I carry this burden so heavily for our American church that God would give us leaders. Rick, you moved over there knowing that you'd probably be martyred. You could be martyred, you may not be. I believe you're going to be raptured personally. But we need leaders, not politicians. Politicians are concerned about what people think. Leaders are concerned about what God's saying. And they're concerned about the people because the people are more important to them than whether they're received or not received, whether they're popular or not popular. Will you pray for us that God would give us leaders in this country? You know, John, with hearts like that,

[Rick Renner]

it's not about me and it's not about you. It's not about us. It's about the people. It's about the people we're speaking to.

[John Bevere]

Yes, it is.

[Rick Renner]

And it's about being accountable to say what God tells us to say. You know, we've already been there and done that, tried to build our ministry, build popularity, do this, do that, already been there, already done that, and this. I think it's one value of age. You kind of learn we've already done that. Now let's do what's important. Let's hear what God has to say and let's do our best to represent exactly what he says and not to say anything else. And that's what I so appreciate about you. But yes, I will pray. Father, I thank you in the name of Jesus. First of all, for John and Lisa. I thank you for their boys or their family is so much like my family. Thank you for Denise. I thank you for my boys. Father, thank you that you've given us the privilege to speak the word of God. Help us, Lord, to live this season of our life, the best season, to faithfully speak what people need to hear.

[John Bevere]

Yes.

[Rick Renner]

And Holy Spirit, you come with your anointing and you don't butcher anybody. Even when you bring a hard word, you bring such an anointing that they can receive it. We pray that you help us to speak the truth with such an anointing that people will say, wow, that hurts, but that feels good. I needed that. Help us, Lord. I thank you for that, Father. And again, Lord, I say thank you for John. I pray, Lord, that you would magnify his voice because he's speaking truth in the name of Jesus. Amen.

[John Bevere]

And Father, I just thank you for Rick, Denise and their boys and their ministry. Lord, they are impacting the Russian world, the Russian speaking world in such a profound way. I'm asking that you would continue to amplify and magnify their voice in that nation, in that world of the Russian speaking, beautiful Slavic people. I'm also asking that you would magnify and amplify his voice in this nation, the United States. And Father, we just ask, give us leaders, give us shepherds that have hearts after you, that will speak the word of God faithfully and declare the truth because they love people more than they love themselves. And Father, we agree on this and we thank you for it. In the mighty name of Jesus.

[Rick Renner]

Amen.

[John Bevere]

Amen.

[Rick Renner]

Amen.

[John Bevere]

All right, so we can get this book on Amazon, correct?

[Rick Renner]

Correct.

[John Bevere]

Hit the link in the description. That's going to get you to the book. I want you to get this book. Rick, can I tell you we're out of time? I know you had a certain amount of time that you could talk. We could talk for hours and hours and hours. There were actually questions I wanted to ask that I didn't even get to. But any final words before we close?

[Rick Renner]

Let's just be faithful. Let's just.

[John Bevere]

Well said.

[Rick Renner]

Just be faithful.

[John Bevere]

What Jesus? Jesus said, what I say to you, Peter, I say to all watch, which watch means we remain in a state of readiness prayer. And we're busy and we're active about what God has called us to do in our worlds of influence. I love it. Rick, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this book, by the way, everybody, thank you. There are so many beautiful illustrations and pictures and just study aids in here. It is a world of wealth, a wealth that I believe is going to keep you. Keep your lamps burning brightly so that when the king comes, as John the Apostle said, we won't be ashamed at his appearing, but we will have confidence. Amen.

[Rick Renner]

Amen.

[John Bevere]

Rick. Love you. God bless you. Have a great day, sir.

[Rick Renner]

Love you, John.