1127: Chaotic Kin Has You Rethinking Children | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show - Episode 1127: Chaotic Kin Has You Rethinking Children | Feedback Friday

Release Date: March 14, 2025
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Producer: Gabriel Mizrahi

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show, host Jordan Harbinger and producer Gabriel Mizrahi delve into listener-submitted dilemmas during their segment, Feedback Friday. The discussions focus on complex family dynamics, mental health challenges, potential grooming in friendships, and coping with grief alongside professional stress. Harbinger and Mizrahi provide compassionate, practical advice to help listeners navigate these difficult situations.

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1. Protecting Future Children from a Dangerous Uncle

Listener's Concern:
The first letter, signed "protecting our offspring when Steve belongs in a psych wing" ([03:00]–[12:44]), details a distressing situation involving the listener's fiancé's grandparents and their son, Steve. While Steve has not been violent towards the couple directly, his history is alarming. He has a violent past, including holding the family at gunpoint and attempting to attack a transgender child with a chainsaw ([04:42]). Additionally, Steve has created a hit list that includes the listener’s fiancé due to perceived grievances like financial success and insufficient attention ([05:07]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger ([05:27]): "This is like a John Wayne movie or something."
• Gabriel Mizrahi ([11:03]): "This guy is a lunatic, okay? If I had a family member like this, I would never go over there."

Advice Given:
Harbinger and Mizrahi strongly advise against visiting Steve’s grandparents' home, highlighting the imminent danger Steve poses. They recommend:

• Cutting off contact with Steve to ensure safety.
• Investing in security measures to protect the household.
• Seeking professional help and possibly reporting Steve’s behaviors to authorities.
• Prioritizing personal and familial safety over maintaining toxic family relationships.

Conclusion:
The hosts underscore the importance of not compromising on safety, urging the listener to prioritize their future children’s well-being over familial obligations.

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2. Encouraging an Adult Daughter to Gain Independence

Listener's Concern:
The second letter, signed "a hamstrung dad" ([18:10]–[34:00]), describes a father struggling with his 27-year-old daughter who refuses to move out despite holding a master’s degree. The daughter exhibits traits of hoarding and OCD, becomes emotionally dependent on her parents, and her nightly emotional outbursts are straining the parents' marriage ([23:03]–[33:50]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger ([22:35]): "You’ve helped create the conditions for her to not have to separate."
• Gabriel Mizrahi ([32:09]): "I just want you guys to see that your love can take a few different forms here."

Advice Given:
Harbinger and Mizrahi recommend the following steps:

• Setting firm boundaries to encourage independence.
• Engaging in open conversations about the importance of her moving out and gaining autonomy.
• Involving a therapist or counselor to mediate and support both the parents and the daughter.
• Gradually reducing enabling behaviors to help her develop self-sufficiency.
• Prioritizing the parents’ needs and marriage to restore their relationship.

Conclusion:
The hosts emphasize the necessity of balancing compassion with firmness, ensuring that the daughter receives the support needed to become independent while addressing the parents' well-being.

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3. Assessing a Potentially Predatory Friendship

Listener's Concern:
The third letter, signed "seeking the right response to this probable nonce" ([34:41]–[43:44]), involves a couple questioning their friendship with Mark and Mia. Mark, a 30-year-old from Europe, met Mia when she was 14, and he was 23. The initial meeting led to Mark being deported due to inappropriate actions, but Mia continues to maintain a relationship with him as an adult ([35:21]–[38:44]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger ([35:38]): "This is bad. That is creepy. Illegal behavior."
• Gabriel Mizrahi ([38:26]): "I would not remain friends with a probable child predator just because..."

Advice Given:
Harbinger and Mizrahi advise:

• Reevaluating the friendship due to Mark’s history of inappropriate behavior with a minor.
• Prioritizing the ethical implications over the convenience of having couple friends.
• Setting boundaries or ceasing the friendship entirely if Mark's behavior continues to raise red flags.
• Supporting Mia by keeping the door open for her to seek help if she realizes the unhealthy nature of her relationship with Mark.

Conclusion:
The hosts stress the importance of distancing from individuals who exhibit predatory behaviors to protect oneself and others from potential harm.

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4. Coping with Grief and Professional Stress

Listener's Concern:
The fourth letter, signed "going through the motions while treading water in this ocean" ([43:44]–[74:53]), is from a single mother grappling with the sudden death of her close friend Raquel from breast cancer. She faces overwhelming grief alongside job stress, compounded by rigid workplace policies and personal responsibilities, including caring for elderly parents and multiple pets ([45:20]–[60:16]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger ([67:00]): "Give yourself some grace here and be patient."
• Gabriel Mizrahi ([72:05]): "Keep putting dots on the board."

Advice Given:
Harbinger and Mizrahi offer the following guidance:

• Allowing oneself to grieve without rushing the healing process.
• Seeking therapy to manage emotions and navigate grief.
• Communicating with the employer about the need for flexibility to accommodate grieving.
• Focusing on small, manageable tasks to maintain productivity without overwhelming oneself.
• Exploring new job opportunities that offer better support and flexibility.
• Taking time to honor the loss, engaging in activities that provide emotional relief, such as journaling or yoga.

Conclusion:
The hosts validate the listener’s feelings, encouraging self-compassion and practical steps to balance grief with professional responsibilities, while advocating for seeking support systems.

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5. Listener’s Recommendations and Show Interaction

Throughout the episode, listeners also share their thoughts on recommendations and interact with the hosts humorously:

• Gabriel's Hat Bribing Joke ([06:30]–[08:04]): A humorous exchange about gifting a cowboy hat to de-escalate a tense situation.
• Documentary Recommendation ([60:45]–[62:29]): A listener recommends Instruments of a Beating Heart, a poignant documentary about a young girl's struggle with a demanding school project in Japan.

Notable Quotes:

• Unknown ([07:00]): "Never underestimate the power of a well delivered Stetson."
• Jordan Harbinger ([74:03]): "We rise by lifting others."

Conclusion:
The episode blends serious advice with light-hearted moments, fostering a supportive community where listeners can seek help and share meaningful recommendations.

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Overall Themes and Insights

• Mental Health and Safety: Emphasizing the importance of recognizing and addressing mental health issues within family and social circles to ensure safety and well-being.

• Parental Boundaries: Highlighting the delicate balance parents must maintain between supporting their children and encouraging independence.

• Ethical Friendships: Underscoring the need to critically assess friendships to prevent association with potentially harmful individuals.

• Grief Management: Providing compassionate strategies for coping with profound loss while managing professional obligations.

• Support Systems: Encouraging the use of therapy and professional guidance to navigate complex personal challenges.

Final Thought:
The Jordan Harbinger Show Episode 1127 offers a blend of empathy, practical advice, and community support, empowering listeners to make informed and compassionate decisions in their personal lives.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. You know how those big wireless companies always find a way to squeeze every last dime out of you? Like, hey, here's your bill and surprise, there's an extra fee for existing. It's ridiculous. That's one reason we finally tried Mint Mobile. The other reason is because they paid us handsomely to do so. But Mint Mobile starts at just 15 bucks a month, so you won't have.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Unknown]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Unknown]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Producer Gabriel Mizrahi ol 50 Shades of Gabe over here.

[Unknown]

Nice. I like that one.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Not that you don't know what that's a reference to, but maybe you don't know why I'm saying it.

[Unknown]

I don't actually. What is this?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So a bunch of people in the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Subreddit are like, oh, Gabe should narrate erotic novels.

[Unknown]

Oh, okay, got it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's something to consider if the whole.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Podcasting thing doesn't work out. You know, it's hard to make a living podcasting.

[Unknown]

I'm gonna add that to my LinkedIn. Looking for work?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, just not specifying W E R K. That's right. I don't even know why it's funny to say we R K, but it just is. Everybody knows what I mean and everybody knows.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't understand. Everybody knows but me, and I'm the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

One that said it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You can use to impact your own life and those around you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Former cult members, astronauts, Cold case homicide investigators, Russian spies.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This week we had Richard Reeves, president.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of the American Institute for Boys and Men, on the struggles that men are having these days. I know a lot of people are probably gonna say, what are you talking about? What about women?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Turns out there's a massive gender gap.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's just actually the other way around.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which I found surprising. We also had a skeptical Sunday on Bananas.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, the fruit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and cannonball right into this warm pool of do's and drums. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Unknown]

Hey, guys. I'm getting married this fall and am beyond excited about it. I really love my fiance, and while our relationship is far from perfect, we've come out of our struggles stronger than before. We're starting premarital counseling as well, which we both agreed is something that we need to make sure our marriage starts on the strongest foot possible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's a good idea.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like it.

[Unknown]

However, there's a growing issue with my fiance's grandparents, who live 20 minutes away from us. For background, my fiance's mother passed away 10 years ago. She was the glue that held the family together, and when she passed, things started going downhill. Her father, my fiance's grandpa, abused his children while they were growing up. I've heard stories of the police being called because grandpa held the family at gunpoint.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, yeah, that's totally reasonable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's psycho. That's not what I expected at. Wow.

[Unknown]

He's never been violent toward us, but he's also quite up there in age and can barely get around his house without falling. So we're dealing with a different guy now. One of their sons, Steve, has lived with my fiance's grandparents for many years to help care for them. He's the reason his parents are not in an assisted living facility. But he also has what appears to be undiagnosed. Bipolar disorder with quite apparent manic and depressive episodes. And he was never able to hold down a solid job. Since becoming their caretaker, he's caused many unsettling events to occur. He's physically abused his dog, verbally threatened his father, and yelled at neighbors on multiple occasions. Then about two months ago, he ran out in front of their house with a chainsaw, attempting to attack a transgender child in their neighborhood.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Steve then retreated back into their house and found the best vantage point to set up a defense line with multiple firearms at his disposal. Luckily, no one was hurt. The police were never called about the incident. Steve also apparently created a hit list of people he plans to kill. And my fiance's name was on it because he, quote, makes too much money and doesn't spend time with him, unquote.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh my God, this is terrifying. So this guy's legitimately out of his mind and dangerous.

[Unknown]

Legitimately?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Needless to say, this freaked out my fiance, who's very level headed. So he invested in a security system for our house and wanted to buy a shotgun for home defense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I can relate.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I can relate.

[Unknown]

Same headspace as Jordan after what happened two weeks ago. He's an army veteran and owns multiple firearms, as do I. We both have our concealed carry permits. And while we're not the types to seek out violence and hope to never have to defend ourselves, we do carry firearms in certain circumstances due to the area we live in and recent events. After all that, we didn't go over to his grandparents house for quite some time. We only went over again because my fiance made sure that Steve was mentally stable by having Steve's brother Bob, who also occasionally lives with the grandparents, send us daily reports on him. Recently, my fiance brought over a new cowboy hat he had bought and gifted it to Steve as a peace offering so that Steve would hopefully take his name off of his hit list. I was quite upset that he didn't tell me about this plan beforehand. Giving away his very nice and quite expensive hat to his unstable uncle. And the fact that my fiance felt he had to do that in order to keep us safe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, at least he didn't give him a rifle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is so tense. This is like a John Wayne movie or something.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, howdy partner, I come in peace.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's the finest hat west of the Mississippi.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As you can tell, I've never seen a John Wayne movie.

[Unknown]

Or at least the finest hat I could find on Etsy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, exactly. I kindly ask you to take me off your little Hit list there, friendo.

[Unknown]

As he revs his chainsaw in the dining room.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. You know what this reminds me of, Gabe?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You remember Billy Madison? This is more my speed.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

John Wayne, Eh, Billy Madison. There's this scene where Adam Sandler calls Steve Buscemi to apologize for bullying him in high school. And he's like, hey, man, I just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did a lot of things that weren't funny. And Steve Buscemi's like, oh, yeah, no problem, all good. Just super chill about it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then once they hang up, the camera zooms out and you see this paper taped to the wall that says people to kill. And he just crosses Billy Madison's name off the list and applies lipstick and lays down on the couch.

[Unknown]

Oh my God. Yeah, this uncle is definitely Steve Buscemi in this situation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

100%.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, thanks for the hat. Oh, that hit list.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, gee, you know how it is.

[Unknown]

No big deal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

So she goes on, but ever since then, Steve has been friendly to us.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is literally what happened. Literally what I said.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it worked.

[Unknown]

Never underestimate the power of a well delivered Stetson.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, Gabe, with your growing collection of hats, you could bribe a lot of crazy uncles.

[Unknown]

Why do you think I bought them? For the aesthetic? No, this is Uncle Appeasing headgear over here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm just picturing you talking a crazy cousin off the ledge by handing him a K bonito hat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, hey, man, chill bro. It's just vibes.

[Unknown]

It's just vibes. And also maybe take some lithium. Just a thought.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, the hat is lined with lithium.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is transdermal. That's the hat that solves that problem.

[Unknown]

Transdermal lithium is something you should consider. Consider patenting. So she goes on, I want to have kids in the next few years. And we plan to stay in the area for the foreseeable future. But I worry that Steve is too unstable and violent to bring any children around.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, like the one he attacked with a chainsaw. Yeah, I might skip their house at Christmas.

[Unknown]

Jeez. And I'm not sure how to protect them without completely cutting out the extended family. My fiance's younger sister has a child, but she and her husband live eight hours away. They visit the grandparents house while Steve is there and have had no issues. But these visits only happen maybe twice a year and she has distance to separate her from the chaos. How would y'all handle the situation? If we have children, should we just keep them away from Steve completely or set firm boundaries around visits? I wouldn't trust Steve around my dogs. How am I supposed to trust him around our kids? Signed, protecting our offspring when Steve belongs in a psych wing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My God, what a situation this is. This is just bananas.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not just that you have an unstable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And apparently violent person in the family, but also this whole thing with the dog accosting the neighbors, the assault, attempted murder of a child with a chainsaw.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The literal hit list.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is a nightmare. This person belongs in prison. Gabe, I have to assume that Steve is seriously traumatized, maybe by his father.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Holding him and his family at gunpoint when they were kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know.

[Unknown]

Just a theory. Just a random theory. I don't know if it holds any water.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So grandpa, his dad was out of his tree.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This kind of violence leaves a real mark. Maybe Steve has some mental illness apart from that, because it sounds like Bob is relatively normal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But their father clearly did a number on them.

[Unknown]

On the upside, he does have a bitch. A new hat.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He does have a bitchin new hat. That's true.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So things aren't all bad. The chainsaw, though, that worries me a little bit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe just a little.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Maybe don't ask him to carve the ice sculpture at your wedding. You're gonna want to hire a vendor for that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. I mean, look, we're having a laugh, but this is actually quite terrifying.

[Unknown]

It is legitimately terrifying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This guy, the fact that he has.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A vantage point in his house and he's like, don't worry, I have access to multiple firearms. This is a tragedy waiting to happen. Whether he just kills him himself, that's almost like the best case scenario of a use of a firearm in this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Situation, is this guy's gonna shoot somebody he wants to.

[Unknown]

I'm pretty stunned that the police were not called after he attacked that kid in the neighborhood. Why didn't the kid's parents call or a neighbor call or why didn't Bob call?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know.

[Unknown]

How do you just move on from something like that? That's not just like, oh, that was a weird thing that happened.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is a super weird that. He attacked my son with a chainsaw. Man, somebody should do something about that guy. But, you know, it's lunchtime, and they're probably not gonna answer the phone. I mean, how do you not immediately dial 911 and have this.

[Unknown]

He didn't have a good hat. He didn't have a hat yet.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He didn't have a hat. I'm really at a loss here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, okay, the family's obviously protecting him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She did say that Steve is the Reason? The parents are still able to live at home, which, okay, I'm happy for them. I'm glad he's good for something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But he's also kicking his dog.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He's going after children in the neighborhood with the chainsaw. He's barricading himself in the house with an arsenal of guns. He's threatening to kill multiple people, including his nephew, because he makes too much money. Which is totally ridiculous. Understatement.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is it really worth protecting that guy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So Meemaw and Pop Pop don't have to eat frickin mashed potatoes in a nursing home?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't think so, Bob.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't think so.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, look, just to cut to the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Chase, if it's true that you wouldn't trust Steve around your dogs, you absolutely should not trust him around your children. End of story. The guy's mentally ill and dangerous. He's untreated. He's unstable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He has weapons in the house.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He has a kill list.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your fiance was on it. Why? Again, because he makes too many and he doesn't spend time with me. The guy is a lunatic, okay? If I had a family member like this, I would never go over there. It's too risky. You don't owe this person anything. This is somebody you notify the police about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In fact, if I was your fiance, I would do just that. Not just for your benefit, but for all the other people and animals this guy might hurt. He could have killed that kid easily.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a miracle he didn't. And what if he had A child would be seriously injured or dead or maimed. He'd be in prison, probably. Now, I know things have cooled down a bit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The cowboy hat did the trick.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that doesn't mean Steve's not going.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To have another episode, isn't going to come up with some new imagined grievance or wake up one day and decide.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That he's mad you guys didn't visit him on Easter or that you're making too much money again? This could happen without you guys even knowing it. That's the thing. You're lucky you knew about the kill list at all. The next time, you just might not. And you might find out when you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Walk in the door and get shotgun blasted by this psychopath.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, yeah, I'm pretty adamant about this. That house is not safe for you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's not safe for your fiance. It's certainly not safe for your future children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even if it is, it's not even worth the risk. Why would you roll the dice on this?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And if that ruffles some feathers in your fiance's family.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tough.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Kishka.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is so beyond the pale. It's insane that you're even debating whether.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To go over there. I mean, Dark Jordan's just like burn the house down.

[Unknown]

I'm a little confused why they want to go over there at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No kidding.

[Unknown]

The grandfather is a lunatic abuser. Even if he is old now and harmless. Steve is Steve. The grandma is doing apparently nothing about any of this. Bob, he sounds alright. Actually, maybe he's cool, but I can't imagine that these are super rewarding visits. These don't sound like incredibly fulfilling relationships that they need to tend. Not a fun vibe over at Chainsaw Manor is what I'm trying to say.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why is it so important they go over there? I can't really tell. It's not like he's normal 95% of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The time, but when he's sick, it's really. Everybody has to. Da da. This is like he's always, pretty much always bad. Or he's manically high and happy because we bribed him. Oh, and also abusive grandpa's there with a house full of guns.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Where's the upside?

[Unknown]

I'm assuming that they're visiting largely out of obligation because the grandparents are getting up there and they don't know how much longer they have. I'm just guessing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fine. But if that is the only reason they're going over there, that's even less reason to put themselves at risk.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's no upside. Also, I'm not sure I agree that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You have to completely cut out the extended family if you don't go over there anymore.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You might not be able to get.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A ton of one on one time with the grandfather if Steve's always around. Although again, why you'd want to spend a ton of time with that guy who held his family at gunpoint. Unclear to me. Maybe we're missing something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Unless the whole family is firmly behind.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Steve, which maybe they are. Maybe that's why no one's calling the cops or intervening here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I can't imagine that anyone in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Their right mind would be on Team Steve.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I don't see why you'd need.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To cut them all off.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can still have dinner with these.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Grandparents at a restaurant.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can invite them over to your house.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just make sure you install a metal detector at the front door.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can plan get togethers without Steve. And if everyone is on Team Steve, if you can't stay away from him without alienating everyone else again, I Am.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Not sure that that's such a big loss.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If your entire family is lunatics that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Don'T find this to be problematic, then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They are also lunatics who are problematic. That's my take. Maybe your fiance's family handles things differently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe they have a higher threshold for violence and dysfunction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't think you should, though. Especially not if you become a parent.

[Unknown]

Also, you mentioned that you're starting premarital counseling. I would run this by your counselor, see what they say about it. I'm just curious. Maybe they have another perspective or they have more detail on your family. But yeah, get another opinion here. See what a third party thinks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Hopefully that person has an objective opinion. If they know the family or they're involved in the community, that might bias them a bit. But honestly, I cannot imagine that any counselor worth their salt would advise soon to be parents to bring a child into an environment like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Stay away.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's my advice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You have so little to gain by.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Having contact with any of these people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And so much to lose.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you might have to give up another hat.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right.

[Unknown]

How many hats are you going to give to this guy just to stay alive?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Take care of yourselves.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Stay strapped.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Now I'm going to take a chainsaw to the prices on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nobody I know has it together all the time. Society glorifies this whole I can do it all myself mentality.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But every great leader, every successful person you admire, they've had mentors, coaches, support systems.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They know when to ask for help.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even my 5 year old has a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hard time with this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But we're teaching him that leaning on people is not a sign of weakness. It's one of the smartest things you can do. Therapy is great for navigating whatever life throws at you. I highly recommend BetterHelp. It is completely online. You don't have to worry about commuting, sitting in waiting rooms, dealing with the hassle of finding the right fit. With over 30,000 licensed therapists covering a ton of different specialties, you can be sure to find somebody who actually gets you. And if it's not the right match, you can switch therapists anytime, no extra cost. Whether you're dealing with stress, relationships, career struggles, or just trying to be the best version of yourself, therapy is one of the most valuable investments that you can make.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And with BetterHelp, it's more accessible and.

[Unknown]

Convenient than Ever build your support system with better help? Visit betterhelp.comjordan to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.comjordan this episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

First of all, thank you so much.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If you sent us a kind message of concern about the home break in we experienced a few weeks ago.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some of you joked about how we made up the story to sell simply safe. It's all true, folks. I even have video footage which by the way, I tried to post and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It wouldn't let me on Instagram because it's too long, yada yada. I'm gonna have to figure that out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We find it honestly hard to believe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That it even happened to us.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I think a lot of us.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Don'T think that something like this would ever happen.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We live in one of those safe neighborhoods, the kind of place you don't worry about security beyond locking the doors at night.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And if you haven't heard, a few.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Weeks ago three masked intruders shattered that illusion literally by kicking in the glass door of the room I was in, trying to force their way into the house.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So glad that we had Simplisafe installed because in the chaos of me screaming for Jen to call the police and rushing these guys like some sort of psychopathic bear, she couldn't find her phone. But she remembered that we had panic buttons installed around the house.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She hit one instantly, sirens blaring, emergency.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Response dispatched, the guys took off. We were left shaken obviously, but safe. Standing outside in my underwear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was a much needed wake up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Call on what we need to reinforce. More glass break sensors locking the outdoor gates.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The things you don't think about until.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Something like this happens.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's easy to feel safe until you are not.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And bottom line, SimpliSafe had our back when it mattered most. If you want 24. 7 professional monitoring and an easy no contract setup, check them out. It's not just about peace of mind, it's about actual security.

[Unknown]

Get started [e-mail] Jordan for 50% off your new system with professional monitoring and your first month free.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast. They're searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Alright, back to Feedback Friday.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, next up.

[Unknown]

Hey Jordan and Gabe. I'm struggling with my 27 year old daughter she's an adult with a master's degree, but she won't move out of our house. She also has no interest in dating or being with people, and she's a bit of a hoarder and OCD personality. The lack of alone time, connection and intimacy with my wife as a result is now driving a wedge between us. I've tried to talk to my daughter about this in the past, but our conversations have sometimes been heated. Her feeling is that this is her safe place, the only place she's ever lived that she has her bedroom and her older sister's room as an office. Her older, married, self sufficient sister, by the way, that all her deceased pets are buried in the backyard and her current cat wouldn't or couldn't live somewhere else, and that she's the caretaker of the house when my wife and I leave. She's a sweet person who struggles with her emotions nightly. She sits on the end of our bed and just emotes, talking about the good and the bad, her life, work, her cat. We've always had this openness and connection, but the nightly conversations have ramped up recently and they can be lengthy. She doesn't cry on a regular basis, but there's sadness in her demeanor. This is not the life she wants. It's not all suffering. She does have good times too, but it definitely pulls on my heart when she cries. And I realize that we are not only her parents, but also the closest thing she has to friends.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh man, that's sad and hard for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You to hear as well.

[Unknown]

I'm sure she won't see a counselor and is smart enough to see the psychology coming when we try to use it. My wife and I have talked openly about going to therapy ourselves, how it's been a big help in our lives. She has a stigma around mental health issues and believes that someday she might work in law enforcement. She's currently in a related field. I don't know if this is true because I certainly know plenty of cops using antidepressants, which is another conversation we've had.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Meaning she's afraid if she goes to therapy, she won't be able to be a cop.

[Unknown]

That seems to be what he's saying, which not necessarily true from my understanding.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, My understanding is that it depends on what the condition is. If somebody is 5150, which is involved, voluntarily hospitalized, sure, that might show up on a criminal history check or something similar, but if you just have OCD or some other condition where you're not institutionalized, probably not going to show up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I don't believe police departments request.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Medical records from candidates. I'm not sure. I don't think they're allowed to. But they do usually make candidates do a psych evaluation, so any issues might be visible to the psychiatrist during the interview.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For me, man, I got to say, if you're disqualified from the police department.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Because you have a mental health issue.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe you should be disqualified from the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Police department because of your mental health issue.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That might be a controversial take, but.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know, man.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I also wonder if maybe that would come up in a polygraph or something. When they interview you, maybe they ask you certain questions, like, have you ever had to be hospitalized? That's another way it could maybe come up. But it really does sound like she's using this as a reason to not go to therapy, which is very interesting. I'm also wondering how real this goal actually is for her. What did he say? She believes that someday she might work in law enforcement.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, That's a funny way to put it. Is he's implying she's a little delusional about this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe.

[Unknown]

I don't know. I can't tell. I don't know if he's saying she's delusional or if it just doesn't sound like she's actively working on her application to the police academy or whatever. So this dream of hers. Yeah? Is it just a way to avoid having to work on her mental health? Sounds like it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's the vibe I'm getting. It's an easy way to just go, yeah, no, that's not an option for me.

[Unknown]

But it's hard to kick her out. I regret not putting her in student housing for school, even though she spent four years in the marching band and went to bowl games and traveled extensively. My wife will be on a trip for the next three weeks, and it's going to be just my daughter and me. I'm wondering if I should start a discussion war without my wife here or just ignore it. Any thoughts on how to push her out without breaking her? Should we spend more time bonding? And then I can use persistent persuasion. Signed, a hamstrung dad. Who wouldn't be mad to see an overgrown daughter leave the family bed?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Man, this is a tough one. I really feel for all of you here. I'm sorry that your daughter struggles in some big ways, that she's clinging to the family nest. And I'm sorry that you and your wife feel stuck and that you don't have a way of really talking to her about this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So just to state the obvious here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your daughter has some very challenging mental health stuff, perhaps debilitating. And my heart goes out to her for that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It really does.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It also sounds like she's failed to individuate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that's a real issue now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whether the ocd, the hoarding, the emotional.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Stuff, whether that's caused her to stay at home and keep her life small.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or whether failing to separate in a healthy way is contributing to all that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's an interesting question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm guessing it's kind of a feedback loop.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It also sounds in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Look, man, I say this with love, that you and your wife have in some ways participated in this dynamic with your daughter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You've helped create the conditions for her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To not have to separate, like you said, by not encouraging her to live on campus, for example, by allowing her to stay home for another five years, by cramping around certain topics when she doesn't want to talk about them. Like therapy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

By having these nightly unloading sessions.

[Unknown]

I gotta say, fascinating ritual.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, it is fascinating. Look, on the one hand it's sweet, right? They're close. She opens up to her parents. There's a real bond there. I'm glad she has them at least. On the other hand, this nightly routine raises a lot of alarm bells for me.

[Unknown]

It does for me as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm hearing a grown woman who's relying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Emotionally on her parents way too much. She's dumping on them a lot and more and more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How did he put it? Nightly, she sits at the end of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Their bed and she just emotes.

[Unknown]

Emotes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That's quite a picture, isn't it?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It. And again, I have compassion for their daughter because she's clearly struggling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She's very isolated, she doesn't have any friends.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her parents are her whole world.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Her parents and her cat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But this is something you kind of might expect from like a 15 year old girl. Not even. A lot of 15 year olds don't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Want to talk to their parents this much.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm just picturing mom and dad sitting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Up against the pillows in awkward silence while their daughter goes on a 90 minute rant about how lonely she is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

About her boss at work, about how.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Cute her cat is, what steroid the cat's on for his IBS or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And they're just thinking, man, this is bad, but we can't talk about what's really going on here. Look, I don't mean to sound like I'm making light of any of this. These are all Legitimate things to talk about. She obviously deserves support.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But when you're 27 years old and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You'Re doing this with your parents every.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Night for a while, and she's clearly sad, this is not the life she wants. Yeah, something is very wrong with this picture.

[Unknown]

And as you said, this is not fair to you or your wife either. It's very important for a child to individuate, but it's also very important for parents to complete the cycle of caring for their children, seeing them off into the world, entering a new phase of their own where, yeah, they get to be together, enjoy their freedom, and turn their attention to new goals and other relationships. You guys are stuck here, too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The thing is, your daughter is making that very difficult.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She's throwing up defenses, smoke screens, really, left and right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You talk about moving out and she's like, oh, this is my safe space.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have my room.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fluffy and Trixie are buried in the backyard.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm actually doing you guys a favor by taking care of the house when you guys are gone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You talk about going to therapy and she says, no way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I want to work for the sheriff's department one day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is going to ruin my career. Which, again, not necessarily true. If that even is a real dream of hers.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We're not even sure about that, Gabe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm kind of marveling at all the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ways this young woman has found of not having to face her life and not having to work on herself from the outside.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's so obvious. I just wonder how much she knows.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The corner that she's backed herself into.

[Unknown]

It's an interesting question. We can't know for sure, but yeah, she might totally know what she's doing and have her parents wrapped around her finger. Right? Or maybe she's blind to these defenses and rationalizations.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's probably a bit of both, I would imagine. But it's obvious that the reason she's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Doing all this is that she is embarrassed.

[Unknown]

That's the thing, right? She's ashamed of how much she's struggling and how isolated she is. Like our friend here said, she feels this stigma around mental health, so on some level, she must know that something isn't right. But until she's willing to sit with that shame or her parents are willing to call it out, I don't see how this situation is going to change.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They need to stop tap dancing around this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But how do you do that? I feel for these parents is a scary conversation to have.

[Unknown]

Oh, very scary. Like you said, things have gotten heated when they've tried to Go near this in the past, and I'm sure it's even scarier. After years of colluding with their daughter in various ways to keep her safe, to say, actually, something is not right here, and we actually feel differently. Let's talk about some other ways we could deal with this. I imagine that would feel like pulling the rug out from under their daughter, maybe provoking her. Kind of like kicking the hornet's nest. What are we going to get back? It might even feel like they're being a little cruel to her by doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That, but it's not.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I get it. It's going to suck for her to hear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But they're also being cruel to her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

By playing along, even though I get why they're doing it.

[Unknown]

Right. No, totally. I agree with that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My fear is that they're enabling her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They have been enabling her for years, for reasons I can absolutely understand.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But, like, five more years go by. 10. She's 37. She still lives in her childhood bedroom.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Because the fridge is always stocked and she doesn't want to live more than 10 yards from where her childhood cat is buried.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At what point does this become regressed and is frankly tragic, because I worry that that's where this is heading. So this conversation is coming one way or another.

[Unknown]

That's right. And what you're really getting at is, in a way, are they prioritizing themselves by trying to protect her because they don't want to, as he put it, go to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I thought it was telling when he said, it definitely pulls on my heart when she cries. And I realize that we're not only her parents, but the closest thing she has to friends. That is objectively sad.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that really. That kind of killed me, that line. And I get it. I do not envy them for having to confront this. I also have so much empathy for a woman who is struggling with ocd. He said she has some hoarding tendencies. We don't know the full story there, but generally that does speak to some theme of control feeling like you need to control your surroundings. So I'm guessing she's very scared, very anxious. But it's an interesting question. Is their daughter actively tugging at their heartstrings, or are they allowing their heartstrings to be tugged by her?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whoever's doing the tugging, it almost doesn't matter. What matters is can you guys allow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yourselves to be sad, anxious, scared, whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your daughter brings up for you in order to help her grow? And my sense is that right now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They can't actually do that.

[Unknown]

This conversation only becomes possible once they're willing to tolerate that discomfort. Right? That discomfort of acknowledging the reality of their daughter's situation with her and saying, honey, I hear you that you don't want to move out. I hear you that you don't want to talk to somebody. But here is what we are seeing, and we're very concerned about you, and we love you, and we want you to flourish. And we don't think that living here and avoiding all of this stuff is serving you very well anymore.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's basically the message.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But then the question is, what happens.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If she refuses to engage?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because I could see their daughter having.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A meltdown about this or lashing out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At them or locking herself in her childhood bedroom and refusing to come out for a week.

[Unknown]

Yeah, she might. Yeah, she might do that. Exactly. Which might mean not doing very much at all for a little while, just, again, bearing the discomfort of rewriting this script and allowing their daughters to have whatever feelings she's going to have. But in this conversation and ongoingly, I would tell your daughter, look, we love you. We are here for you. We believe in you. But part of loving you is helping you see certain things that might be a little hard to see sometimes. And I know that this might be hard to hear. Trust me. It's hard for us to say, but what we're seeing is that you're suffering quite a bit in these ways. You're clinging to what's familiar, which we can understand. You're very isolated, which worries us. The ocd, the hoarding, they are becoming real challenges. You're making it impossible to explore any of this and get better. And until you're willing to at least talk about some of this stuff, starting with us, if you want to, and just be open to trying things in a new way, we just don't see how things are going to get better. And that is all we want, for you to chart your own course, chase your goals, be happy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if she throws up the usual.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Smoke screens, you gotta have some responses ready.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe you tell her that talking to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A therapist won't disqualify her from a career in law enforcement.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not on its own, anyway. And if she's like, I'm not going to therapy, I'm not that bad, maybe say, honey, I think you're struggling in some profound ways, and that's okay, we understand. But it's very clear to us that you're dodging this because it's scary or.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Embarrassing or just too overwhelming.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And maybe you literally ask her, how do you want to Handle all this. Do you want to handle this? How do you see your life unfolding.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

From here on out?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because I'm not sure this is it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, these are all great questions, and yes, probably very scary questions. And so while you ask them, I would definitely encourage you to keep making it safer to talk. Don't move too quickly or be too intense. But these are precisely the questions that I would ask. And really, it's this balance of offering love to your daughter and also challenging her, which is probably a new language for you. But look, daring to have this conversation at all also means daring to fail, right? Your daughter might reject everything you say, or she might take it in and then not really do anything with it. So the point of having this conversation with her might not necessarily be to convince her of your opinion. It might actually be to just go on record as saying, hey, we're concerned. We're not willing to play along in the way we have in the past. We're ready to support you in a different way and then to live in that reality, whatever that is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, the reality where she's not doing a total 180 and throwing herself into.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Getting better, but they're no longer colluding with her.

[Unknown]

Yes, I think even that would be a powerful step forward for them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

At which point they might need to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Consider taking a stronger tack here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I do think there's a timeline where they lovingly push their daughter out of the nest.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If six months go by a year.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And nothing has changed, I think there's a point where they're allowed to say, hey, look, honey, we love you, but it's time for both of us.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Let's find you an apartment. Let's find you a therapist and a psychiatrist. Let's see what it's like for you to become a little more independent. And maybe she takes to that, maybe she doesn't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But that's not on you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She's 27 years old. This might be a situation where she's mad at you for a while, and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Then one day she wakes up in her own apartment and feeds her cat and looks around and goes, oh, got it. I'm responsible for me. If I want to have friends, I got to work on that. If I want to make a career change, I have to get on top of my mental health. I'm going to have to start applying to jobs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that might be the beginning of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A very profound process for her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And to be clear, I'm not saying you should jump straight to kicking her out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I actually think it's crucial.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She feels loved and supported, even while you're giving her some tough news. I just want you to see that your love can take a few different forms here. Love isn't just sitting on the bed.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

While your child emotes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sometimes love means being firm, saying the uncomfortable thing appropriately, holding your child's feet to the fire, staying connected with them even when they're angry at you. And if you're unsuccessful, remembering that you and your wife are adults too, with your own goals and needs. And at her age, you're allowed to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Factor in your own interests too. Let's not lose sight of the fact that your marriage is now suffering as.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A result of all this, which is an equally important symptom here and something.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you and your wife need to acknowledge as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I wish you and your wife the courage to have these conversations with your daughter, and I hope your daughter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Taps into her own courage and vulnerability to take it all in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This won't be easy, but it is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Obviously very necessary and it could be one of the best things to ever happen to all of you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And good luck. You can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise, Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your friend violated their professional ethics.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

By having an affair with an unstable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Patient, a skeezy businessman might be using.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The church next to your house to engage in human trafficking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or your 105-year-old great aunt has been.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hidden away by a dodgy family member.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. And by the way, it doesn't have.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To be nearly as crazy as all that stuff. We like the boring questions too. Air quotes Boring.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hit us up [e-mail] we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser is a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox once a week. Lot of wisdom in these thousand plus episodes and we relate some principles there to shows that you've heard or maybe you haven't heard yet. It's a great companion to the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You can sign [e-mail] News all right, what's next?

[Unknown]

Hi Gabe and Jordan. My fiance and I have been friends with another couple for approximately two years. Let's call them Mark and Mia. Mark is 30 years old and from Europe and Mia is 21 years old and from the US. Mia goes back and forth to Europe to be with Mark and we all live in the Same city here in Europe. After a few months of knowing them, we came to learn that they met online when Mia was 14 and waited until she was 18 to meet in real life. A while later, they told us that they met once in the US when she was 17. Then recently, we found out that they met in real life when she was actually 14.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, that's concerning. You're making me do math. I don't like it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, how old was Mark when she was 14?

[Unknown]

So he's nine years older. So he was 23 when she was 14.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's gross. Flying across the world to meet up with a 14 year old girl you met online.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That dude is lucky Chris Hansen wasn't waiting for him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, why don't you have a seat over there?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is bad. That is creepy. Illegal behavior.

[Unknown]

Oh, boy. A friend of Mia's back then called the cops and Mark was deported from.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The U.S. yeah, okay, so it sounds.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like Homeland Security agreed that this was creepy too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And they were like, hey, go back to Amsterdam, bro.

[Unknown]

Yeah, sounds like it. I've tried to talk with Mia about the age difference, but she just tries to convince me it's fine and that she was the one who made the first move on him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, just to state the obvious, even if that's true, that doesn't make it okay. He's the adult. She was a child.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She can't consent. She can't make moves on you. End of story.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But man, it's so interesting that Mia.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pushes back on this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So either she genuinely does not experience.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This as problematic, which, this is creepy, whether she feels it was or not.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or she knows it was dodgy and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She'S just doubling down because she doesn't want to face it or get him into trouble.

[Unknown]

The dilemma for my fiance and me now is whether we should continue being friends with them. Our relationship with them has been quite good, mostly, and we don't really have any other couple to hang out with. It's also quite hard to find friends who are couples in general. But we both feel a bit weird about him probably grooming her since she was 14. What should we do? Signed seeking the right response to this probable nonce.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is uncomfortable. So Mark almost certainly groomed Mia when she was 14.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I honestly can't imagine another explanation. If they met online and he flew out to visit her at that age, it's not like they just happened to meet through mutual friends or family or whatever, and then years later, they took.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Their relationship in a different direction. This is not Celine Dion.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right? And her husband. Although I don't know all the details there, so maybe it is. Although even that would raise eyebrows for me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is very sus. And the fact that they told you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Guys a different version of events at.

[Jordan Harbinger]

First and that Mark got deported. Come on. It tells me they know. This all sounds so bad.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In fact, it probably was.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But as you're finding out, I'm not.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly sure what you're supposed to do about it. Mia's an adult now, legally speaking, anyway.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She's choosing to be with this guy. She might be kind of messed up by all this. We don't know what her experience is, what's going through her head, but on some level, she is choosing to stay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With this guy now that she's 21.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I don't think anybody can stop her. As for your friendship with them. Look, if you have real concerns about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mark based on what he did with Mia back then or how he's behaving.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Now, and that doesn't feel like something you guys can talk about openly if you're not getting any indication that this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is something he's worked through or is open to discussing with you, and if.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That doesn't sit well with you, which it clearly doesn't, I would not stay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In this friendship just because you don't have any other couples to hang out with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hear you that it's hard to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Make couple friends, but it is not impossible. And I personally would not remain friends.

[Jordan Harbinger]

With a probable child predator just because.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It'S slim pickings out there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Especially because I'm not getting the sense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you and your fiance are head.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Over heels with Mark and Mia. Maybe you are, and you just didn't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Include that in your letter. It's not like you guys are family, and you gotta have some kind of relationship with them and figure it all out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not hearing that Mark is this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Really amazing friend who did this questionable thing a really long time ago, or that Mia is your best friend.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It sounds like you kind of could take him or leave him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And if that's the case, you have two reasons to reconsider this friendship.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I agree. My thoughts exactly. Also, he said our friendship with them has mostly been great, which makes me wonder what else has come up. Was there some other problem, or are there other red flags that are coming up in the relationship? But. But, yeah. Overall, I just cannot tell how deep their friendship with Mark and Mia actually is. There's a huge elephant in the room. A very disturbing, criminal elephant. And when you try to go near it with Mia, it sounds like she pretty much shuts it down either because it is really painful for her or because she knows that people will judge them for this and she just doesn't want to deal with that. It's hard, man. I don't know. Part of me feels like Mia deserves a safe friend she can talk to about this. So I want you guys to stay close. Jordan, I hate to recommend that they just drop these people, and then Mia is left alone in a potentially troubling relationship, or at least a troubling past with no one to turn to, but I don't know what to do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, but then if she's not even opening up about any of this.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's the thing. Then the conversation isn't even possible. I guess I would want to know how you've tried to broach this with Mia. Have you approached her in a way that made her feel okay about opening up to you about how she met Mark and how their relationship is now these days? I don't know. I can't really tell. It does sound like you've genuinely tried. And at a certain point, you can't make somebody talk about something they don't want to talk about. So either way, I guess I'm back to my question. Is this actually a meaningful friendship or is this just company to pass the time and not feel lonely? If it's the latter and the friendship doesn't have the potential to become something more than that, then that's even less reason to stay close with these people, in my view.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. I think that's what this letter is about, too. Not just what to do about Mark and Mia, but really how they choose their friends, what they look for, foreign people, what kind of relationships they want to have.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My feeling is if you're spending time with people because you feel you can't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do better or because it's too hard.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To make other friends, or you just.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Want another couple to drink wine and play cards against humanity with or whatever, that's not the best reason to stay close.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This might be a sign that it's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Time to branch out, get invested in some hobbies communities that put you in touch with other people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And maybe they don't need to be other couples.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe that's another criterion to look at. Maybe you're missing out on other great friends who are single. Something else to consider.

[Jordan Harbinger]

As for Mark and Mia, it's up to you to decide whether you want to stay close with them. I'm not hearing that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's something super compelling about them. I am hearing that there's one potentially very worrisome thing about them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Although how worrisome? It's a complicated question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think that comes down to how Mark and Mia make sense of this unusual part of their story and how they share it with other people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, even if you pull away, I would definitely try to keep the door open to Mia because if she ever decides that she needs a friend to talk to, I'd love for her to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Be able to reach out. I mean, she might eventually realize how weird this all is and have to process it. And you don't want her to be alone for that weird story.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hope Mia's okay. And good luck. You know what? You won't get deported for putting your hands on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by the Defender. We all have those big goals that seem just out of reach, right? But the truth is, that's what keeps us moving forward. For the people who embrace challenges and explore their way, there's the Defender. The Defender is built to handle whatever comes its way with legendary capability on road or off. It's engineered with a tough, rigid body, tested to the extreme and built with durable, lightweight architecture for strength and confidence. But it's not just about ruggedness. It's an icon reimagined with a design that feels modern yet honors its adventurous roots. Plus, there's a Defender for every kind of Explorer, from the Defender 90 to the 110, and even the 130, which seats up to eight people. So whether it's just you or the whole family, there's a model for your journey. If you're ready to embrace the impossible, the Defender is your perfect partner. Beyond capable and ready to go wherever you're headed. Next. Build your defender@land roverusa.com I've got Homes.com.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

And what makes a home is more than just the house or property.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com. we've done your homework. This episode is sponsored in part by the Disorder Podcast. You ever scroll through the news and think, did the world always feel this chaotic or is it just me? Why do global crises keep piling up? AI, climate change, corruption, shady politicians. That's exactly what the Disorder Podcast unpacks. Hosted by Jason Pak alongside former ambassadors and top think tankers, this show takes a deep dive into why global cooperation is broken and how things like kleptocracy, populism and even AI are all tangled up in today's chaos. And this isn't just some guy ranting on a mic. It's backed by the Royal United Services Institute, the world's oldest defense and security think tank. So yeah, these guys know their stuff. They've had guests like Bill Browder, who's been on the show, and Anne Applebaum, who've also been on the show, and Jonathan Powell, who has yet to come. And right now they've got an episode with George Monbiot on neoliberalism and the modern oligarchy, AKA how a handful of people somehow always end up hoarding all the power. So if you've ever wondered why everything feels like a never ending crisis and you want to hear smart people actually explain it, check out the Disorder Podcast, available wherever you're listening now. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And clickable on the [e-mail] deals. Our AI chatbot can help you surface.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Codes and if that doesn't work, email us and we'll dig up the code for you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is that important that you support those who support the show. Alright, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[Unknown]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 51 year old single mom of a 15 year old daughter. Let's call her Jane. Jane is a freshman in high school, we live in Arizona and her father Bob lives in California. Bob and I dated for a year and a half before I discovered that he was married with two kids. Around the same time I found out I was pregnant.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Damn, that is A lot to happen all at once. Geez. Living a double life for a year and a half.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Crazy. I could never handle the stress of this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'll never understand these guys.

[Unknown]

No. Me either. What a mental emotional burden that would be.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right?

[Unknown]

And lying on top of it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They've got to be wired in such a way where they just don't care.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They just don't care about getting caught. Because I would be nervous the whole time. It would preclude any enjoyment I would get out of something weird like this.

[Unknown]

Do you have to be wired a certain way in order to enjoy the relationship? Knowing you're deceiving the person so profoundly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And your family and your kids, I mean. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And you're putting so much at risk.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It's crazy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think so.

[Unknown]

When I told Bob, he offered to take care of it, meaning pay for an abortion, which I refused. I cut off contact and my pregnancy ended up being high risk. Jane was born and spent two weeks in the nicu. Bob's then wife didn't allow him to have any contact with Jane, so he didn't meet her until she was 8, even though he had fought my move to Arizona. He's a textbook narcissist. He's called me names in court, referred to my parents as racist despite having barely met them, and sent me abusive texts, which is why I cut off all communication with him except for the necessary logistics. Custody and child support are still handled through the California courts. Jane began traveling as an unaccompanied minor to visit Bob at age 8, per the court order. Jane doesn't like him much and their relationship has been strained, though she loves her half brothers and other members of his family. But I've always said that Jane is better off knowing Bob than not, especially because he's black and there are cultural aspects of her identity that I can't fully contribute to. But now that Jane is in high school and becoming more independent, she wants more control over where and how she spends her time. She's extremely mature for her age. She's been managing theater stage crews of 60 plus kids for three years. She's involved in professional theater and she's in all honors and AP classes with straight A's. She knows what she wants and right now she doesn't want to spend the 75 court order days per year with her dad, especially not 90% of her summer, which she wants to spend working a job and volunteering. He's extremely controlling. He doesn't support her taking online summer school, which she wants to do. And won't let her go out alone. He's been known to take away her phone or restrict Internet access, preventing her from contacting me or her friends while she's with him. I support Jane in deciding how much time to spend with her dad. Some have suggested letting her make the choice, and if Bob takes us back to court, a judge would likely rule in her favor. But if we follow her wishes, I will be in contempt of court and I can't afford to hire a lawyer in California to change the order. I hate that this causes Jane stress. While I know Bob loves her, his actions like withholding flight information, not paying child support on time, and ignoring her extracurricular needs are often aimed at hurting me, not her. Unfortunately, she interprets this as him not caring about her as much as he does his other kids. On another note, your show has encouraged me to seek out therapy to work through all of these emotions. I'm the stereotypical overachieving single mom who does everything for her kid and puts herself on the back burner. This past year has been especially difficult as my elderly parents are in decline with dementia and we just moved them into an independent living facility. On top of that, I have a challenging job with a lot of travel and seven pets to care for and I'm exhausted. I'm trying to minimize my emotional churn, but I haven't been able to find the balance and I'm hopeful that therapy will help with that. So thank you for encouraging that aspect of self care.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Alright, pause. That is a lot to handle my friend. I'm tempted to say maybe a little too much, but anyway, I'm so glad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You'Re looking at how you've been handling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All this, carving out time for yourself. I'm glad we could play a role in that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Therapy is so key, especially when your.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Life is as full as yours and brings up a lot of intense feelings. So proud of you for that.

[Unknown]

Am I crazy for allowing my daughter to choose how much time she spends with her dad? Or should I stick with the official court agreement even though it seems to be doing more harm than good? Signed tempting the court to thwart and cut short this excessive support for all this transport to a parent who only distorts and falls short.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Man, what a challenging co parent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bob sounds like a tricky person to put it lightly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm sorry he lied to you when you were together that he's been hurtful in all these ways. I'm also sorry that he hasn't been the most loving father to Jane, although.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also hear you that he probably does love her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He just might not know how to show that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if he's actually a narcissist, he.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Has all kinds of other mental issues that he's dealing with. It's a challenging situation all around. I'm not sure there's a perfect answer here. So, look, I share your view that Jane is old enough now to start asserting herself more and deciding where she spends her time. She's 15.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She's very mature. I absolutely agree.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She should have a say in how often she sees her dad and what.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The rules are when she's at his house. But my fear is that if you guys ignore the custody agreement, Bob is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Going to make things really difficult for you. You said again, he's a narcissist. He's controlling. He's been aggressive and abusive in court. I said he's a tricky person. It really sounds like he's a trashy, a hole. And I'm going to imagine that he's going to do all this stuff all over again just to make your life harder. He has no problem hurting your daughter to get to you also.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And now, look, it might be harder.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For him to drag you back to court, given that you guys live in different states. The court system, at least here in California, is pretty backed up. Who knows, it could be months, a year or more before you finally get a date. In the meantime, Jane could enjoy more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Freedom and pursue all these awesome things.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That she wants to do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And when you guys do have that hearing, Jane will be 16, even older.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Even more equipped to advocate for herself. That could help.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that doesn't mean you won't face legal consequences for violating a custody agreement.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

See, you do have to consider the cost.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My understanding is that could include fines, loss of custody rights. Being required to attend counseling or parenting classes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In extreme cases could result in jail time, although I think that's probably very unlikely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is a very real risk here. On the other hand, my understanding is that the court tries to prioritize a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Child'S best interest in these hearings. They often take a child's wishes into account, especially when that child is 15, 16 years old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if they hear from you and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Bob and maybe even Jane, they might.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Modify the custody arrangement, reduce Bob's visitation time, give Jane more of a say in all this. Now, that probably means you're going to need to hire a lawyer.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I know you said you can't afford it right now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also don't know if you can avoid it. Not if you plan to deliberately ignore.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The custody agreement, and definitely not if you plan to actively revisit it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My feeling there is you just have.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To find a way to pay for an attorney, period.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It might not be as expensive as you think. The heavy lifting of the custody order is already done. I wonder if a lawyer might help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You modify it or plan ahead for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not a huge amount of money. And if you need to do a GoFundMe or ask for family support, I think it's worth it. There are also pro bono, low cost, sliding scale legal services out there, and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would definitely look into that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At a minimum, I would book a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Consultation with a family attorney and talk to them about your options. Ask them what would happen if you ignored the custody agreement. Ask them what it would take to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Modify it, how much Jane's preferences would play a role in the court's decision. I would not make big decisions like.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This without a lawyer's guidance.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You do have some other options, though. You could work with Jane to get her dad to reconsider how much time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He demands with her, how he treats.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her when she's there, what he allows her to do. Maybe there's no reasonable conversation to be had with Bob.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe that's why you feel your only choice is just to ignore the custody agreement.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But if Jane sits down with him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Looks him in the eye, this super.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Mature, thoughtful, driven, 15 year old person, and she's like, dad, I'm glad we have a relationship.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I appreciate that you want to spend time with me. I know our situation is complicated, but I also have some big goals that I want to achieve.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Summer school, a job, volunteer work. And I just can't achieve them with this schedule.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I either need to spend more time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At home or I need you to ease up when I'm under your roof.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know you love me. I know you want to see me succeed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So can we talk about what that would look like? And I might even throw in a little sugar here. If he's really a narcissist, you can.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Explain to him how this is going.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To make him look like such a great dad.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

How she's gonna have a summer that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Puts her ahead of everybody else, thanks to him. And I'm guessing that hearing this from.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Her as opposed to you would be more impactful. Although he might fight you guys either way. Who knows?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it's worth a shot. And maybe she tries first and then you call and gently back her up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So he knows this isn't just you pulling the strings and putting words in her mouth. Although I realize I literally just put words in her mouth by giving you that script.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But, you know, we like giving you some language to work with. The point is, this should come from Jane in her own words, based on what she really wants.

[Unknown]

And if Bob absolutely refuses to budge, which, unfortunately, I guess that is a strong possibility, and there's really no way to ignore the court order without getting into trouble, then I would work with Jane to come up with a plan to make it through the next two years, two and a half years, whatever it is, of this agreement, until she's 18, at which point she'll be free and she can decide how much she wants to see Bob herself. Your daughter has so much going for her. She has such a bright future. The stakes very thankfully are high here. So she needs to find clever ways to work around her dad's crazy rules. She needs to keep fighting for as much autonomy as possible. She cannot let the schedule get in the way of her future. So if she needs to sneak an iPad to Arizona so she can do online summer school under the covers at night, great. Do that. If she needs a burner phone to stay in touch with you and her friends when he takes her phone away, fine. If she can get creative and find a job or maybe a volunteer position in Arizona near her dad, I would look into that. I think she might need to get creative here so that her dad doesn't inadvertently hold her back. Although now that I'm saying this, I wonder if she should make that clear to her dad when she talks to him. Kind of like in the way Jordan was just pitching. And if he's like, no way. You're a kid. You're my kid. You do what I say when you're under my roof or whatever, then I would encourage Jane to tell him what that actually means for her. She could say, dad, if you keep treating me this way, you're going to start getting in the way of my dreams, and it's going to be really hard to keep up my grades. I might not get into the colleges that I want to go to. I'm not going to be able to do theater, which I love. Is that really what you want? Is that what you want from me as my dad and put it back on him and press the issue again? Bob might be so narcissistic and controlling and, yeah, who knows, maybe determined to get back at you that he's not going to be swayed by that. But at least you guys will be forcing him to go on record as saying, yes. It is more important to me that I make you play by my rules than that you're happy and successful. And that will tell you a lot about whether Bob deserves his relationship with Jane. It might also give you guys more ammunition in any custody hearing down the line. You know, this could be potentially compelling evidence for why Jane should have more time with you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Agreed. All around.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So no, you're not crazy for wanting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To allow Jane to choose how much time she spends with her dad. Any rational, healthy parent would start to listen to a mature 15 year old's wishes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that doesn't mean there aren't some.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good reasons to stick with the court order, even if it's doing some harm. But that's why you guys need to get creative and explore every other option here. Talk to a lawyer. I would also run all of this by your therapist. See what they say. They might have some great ideas for how to help Jane cope with her dad assert herself. They might also know certain things about how much you can push the law.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And definitely keep going to therapy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It sounds like a really important space for you personally in all of this.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And on that note, I just want to say I love that you recognize how much responsibility you tend to take on and apparently how that often comes at your expense. That's a very important insight. I'm so glad you're working on it. But I also can't stop thinking about the seven pets in your house.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a lot of dogs in a cat. Look, I hope there's some fish in there, a hamster, just lighten the load a little bit.

[Unknown]

Something tells me that this is six rescue dogs and an agoraphobic cat that lives in fear of everyone else 24 7. But that's a lot. Especially when you're caring for elderly parents with dementia and a teenage daughter and you're working your ass off. I guess I just want to know, like, how do you end up with seven pets when you're dealing with all of that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

She must have chosen them, right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They weren't just strays who wandered in the house and stuck around. I'm guessing she went to the shelter.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Clearly she's already onto this. So I'm not trying to pile on here, but I'm just wondering if she might be going out of her way a little bit to take on so much responsibility. And I guess I wonder what functioned that impulse to care for so many other people's lives. Apparently animals lives as well. What that is serving for her, Whether it's just because she has a lot of love to give, which I do believe or whether there might be a pattern here of giving a lot, maybe a little too much, to others for a reason. That would be very important for her to know. Because it seems to me that part of your job as a great mom to Jane is being very disciplined about where else you spend your time and your energy. And just to be clear, I'm not saying you should go take four of the pets back to the shelter or anything. I love that you have animals in your life that you want animals in your house. It's beautiful. But if there are other areas where you might be tempted to take on more responsibility, just maybe keep an eye on that. And, yeah, definitely keep bringing it into therapy. Because this quality might also show up in how you care for Jane, how you balance Bob's wishes and all this, and also just this whole decision about whether to actually follow the custody agreement.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, good point. I'm sure this responsibility thing comes from a good place, but even she knows that it might be a bit of a fatal flaw. Which again, is why I'm glad that you're talking about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whatever you do, make sure it's in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Service of empowering Jane and setting her up for as much success as possible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She sounds like an extraordinary kid. She's going places.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She deserves as many advantages and as much love as possible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sending you guys a big hug and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wishing you all the best.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's concerning Gabriel. I get it. He's controlling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He doesn't let her go out at night. Maybe he's a product of his environment when he was growing up, not wanting her to do extra school online from home. Something about that sits very poorly with me because the disadvantages are none. And the advantages are she gets ahead in her education. And it's like, like. Okay, now I'm not convinced that you have your daughter's best wishes in mind at all. I feel like you just want to say no to things.

[Unknown]

Either you just want to say no to things, or you resent that's going to be time she doesn't spend with you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, interesting.

[Unknown]

But then doing what? Like, how are you spending that time? Is it meaningful time? Are you supporting her dreams? Is she excited to hang out with you? And if not, why?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that whole thing just does not sit right with me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It would be different if she wanted to go away to camp for two.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Out of the two and a half months.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, then you're not gonna see your dad. But if my kid says, hey, I.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Gotta spend three or four hours a day on the iPad doing homework, I'm.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thrilled that I have a go getter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Kid not whining about how you're not paying attention to me. He maybe really is like a actual narcissist to the point where he's only looking at what she does for him and her source of narcissistic supply for her dad, which is not a good situation for a child to be in at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler.

[Unknown]

My recommendation this week is a documentary called Instruments of a Beating Heart. So this is one of the most moving and fascinating things I have seen this year. It was directed by Emma Ryan Yamazaki, who is a very talented British Japanese director. I don't want to give too much away. I want you guys to go watch this. But this short doc is basically about a young girl. I think she's 7 years old, and she gets chosen in her Japanese school to do this group performance of a Beethoven piece. And this project ends up pushing this little girl to the brink. And she basically has to figure out how to nail her part in the performance while serving the larger class and leaning on her friends and teachers and working through all of these big emotions that this performance brings up for her. The film is only about 20 minutes, but. But you go on a huge moving journey with this little girl. And in the process, the film really captures the beauty and also the darkness of Japanese culture and their education system and just how it, like, teaches kids to be super responsible and thoughtful and dedicated, but also how it can push them in ways that are honestly heartbreaking to watch. This film was nominated for best documentary Short film at the Academy Awards this year. I see why it's brilliant. I went to a screening of it this week and I was in the audience. I laughed, I cried. I thought it was fantastic. I can't stop thinking about it. I think you'll enjoy it too. And you can find a link to it in the show notes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In case you don't know, there's a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Subreddit for our show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific things here on the show, like you want to tell Gabriel to stop recommending Netflix series that are 12 hours long and recommend more 20 minute films, I can get behind that. I will upvote that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can find that on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Yeah, Gabe, it's like, I'm like, hey, buy this UV detector to keep from getting a sunburn. And you're like, watch 27 hours about the history of Japanese flower arranging on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Netflix and I'm just like, just buy the thing.

[Unknown]

Literally never recommended that. This is blasphemous. This is libel, actually, is what this is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is slander.

[Unknown]

But some of my reqs are. They're dank wrecks, but they sometimes they take a little bit of an investment. This one, you can watch it on your lunch break.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are you single and unemployed? Take Gabriel's recommendations and binge all of those things.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You have nothing else to do.

[Unknown]

You know what this is, by the way, Jordan, I just want to point out these are from the people who want me to narrate a 14 hour erotic novel. I think they have the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are erotic novels that long?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, get to the point, for God's sake. Geez, maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.

[Unknown]

Well, when I narrate them, they will be all right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Speaking of narration, what's next out of the mailbag?

[Unknown]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been working at my current job for six months and overall I enjoy the work I'm doing and the people I work with. But the workload has steadily increased over time with no support for my ever growing task list. And now I can't manage. I consistently feel like I'm set up to fail. Still, I've been able to get by working late and powering through. But almost two years ago, one of my best friends, Raquel, got diagnosed with breast cancer. She underwent aggressive treatments, receiving top notch care, and it worked. She announced that she was cancer free later that year. We were all relieved and she and her fiance were ready to put that chapter behind them. They had their wedding in October 2024 and it was such a celebration of life and hope. Everyone came together to celebrate her and her husband after all they'd been through. That was the last time I saw her. Looking so beautiful and so full of life. On January 8, four days before her 31st birthday, I got the message telling me the news of her passing. It was shocking and it broke me. I immediately took off of work and made arrangements to go to her services.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh man, I am so sorry, friend.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is truly awful. 31 years old, three months after you get married.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's so sad, man. Cancer is just, just brutal. Evil.

[Unknown]

My boss was nice early on when everything happened. No pushback on me taking off to go to the funeral, even though friends don't technically qualify for bereavement leave. But that was just two weeks ago. Now it's back to business as usual, back to normal. But I don't feel normal I'm still grieving the loss of my friend. I've had trouble focusing on work. Everything I'm doing seems so trivial and unimportant. And my list of responsibilities only continues to grow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of course. Yeah, I get that. What could be more normal? I'd feel the same way.

[Unknown]

Since the start of the year, my workplace has cracked down on working from home and reiterated our old school rigid rules. Hey, kids, don't forget you can only take lunch between these times. Stuff like that. I feel suffocated by this lack of flexibility. I dread going to work, and I'm so drained by the end of the day. Even though I've stopped working late, I feel like I have no freedom and just have to phone it in and muddle through even when a wave of grief hits and I'm unproductive and unfocused. I've been looking for new jobs with more flexibility and hybrid roles, but haven't had much success yet. I'm just not sure how to proceed. I feel stuck, frustrated, helpless. I just want to quit and go get any other job. Is there any way to talk to my boss about this in a way that doesn't put a target on my back? What should I do? How do I work through this grief? Signed, going through the motions while treading water in this ocean.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, man, this is a really sad letter. Damn.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, like I said, I'm so very.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sorry that you had to say goodbye to Raquel. Losing a best friend, especially so young, especially after fighting a battle like that, after her wedding, just devastating. There's no other word for it. What you're going through right now, what her husband must be going through, that poor guy. It's extremely intense. And it might be intense for a while.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So honestly, it makes sense that you're feeling drained.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It makes sense that you're struggling to focus, finding work annoying and meaningless. These are all classic symptoms of grief. And you were already feeling demoralized before all of this happened. So my first thought for you, and I know this sounds obvious, but it's important.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Give yourself some grace here and be patient. You're in a role that's demanding a lot of you. You say you don't have a lot.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of support, that you're set up to fail, and now you're grieving a huge loss on top of it. And I think any work is probably.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Going to feel pretty meaningless in light of what you just went through. And I would argue that it should.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Feel a little meaningless in a way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because one of the functions of loss.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is to remind us what really matters. And 90% of the stuff we have to deal with in this modern world.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just does not matter. It matters in terms of getting a paycheck and keeping a roof over your head, sure, but it doesn't matter philosophically or existentially. I'm sure Raquel's death is bringing up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A lot of things for you. One of them might be a new awareness of how precious life is, how nothing is guaranteed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which in a way, that's terrifying. And in a way, right. It's beautiful. It's profound. Grief brings a certain clarity to certain things. And that clarity is a gift. It can be really enlivening. It can also feel super frustrating and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Burdensome when it butts up against a to do list that's a mile long or some dumb 45 minute lunch break.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that's part of the process of healing from grief, keeping a foot in those two realities, that so much of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Our lives is trivial and ridiculous and that we have to take care of that stuff and play along to some degree.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And over time, as the grief settles, I promise it will become easier to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Integrate these two perspectives, to participate in the two halves of life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's going to take a little time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And you just have to kind of allow that process to unfold on its own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But on a practical level, yeah, you got to give yourself permission to feel.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The waves of morning when they come on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or just that persistent low grade meh feeling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, you have to accept that work's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just gonna feel different for a while. You might perform differently for a while.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that is normal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And in two, five, 10 years, whatever the minutia or minutiae of what you're.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dealing with at work right now, you probably won't even remember them.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Now, about your boss, you mentioned that they were supportive when you needed time off to go to the funeral. That's cool. It's a great sign. It sounds like your boss gets it and has their priorities largely in the right place. I'm curious to know what specifically you want to talk to them about. Is it accommodations you need right now while you go through this? Is it about these larger frustrations with corporate policies? It sounds like maybe both. My advice there, first of all, maybe take a beat and see if you really do need to talk to them, because you're still in the very early stages of this grief. So all of this is probably way more intense right now than it will be in even a month or two months. You're still Settling into this weird new reality. Maybe just see how that goes before you start asking for too much. But also, you might jump ship to another job really soon and all of this will just be moot. But if you do feel the need to talk to your boss, my advice is frame that conversation around your productivity as much as possible. So maybe you tell them, look, I want to do my best work, but as you know, I am struggling right now to be as effective as I usually am. I'm still reeling from my friend. It's doing a real number on me. I know it's going to get better, but I could use a little more flexibility while I get back to my normal level of performance. So is there any way we could find some adjustments? Can I maybe do an occasional work from home day here and there? Can I have a little more flexibility in my schedule? Can I get some support for these projects that you're asking me to tackle? Because just a few of these small changes would really help me be at my best for you, for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I like that. I think it's smart to keep the conversation focused on solutions rather than your emotions and feelings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because even though your feelings are legit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It can be hard for a company to make exceptions based on them. And it's your job to take care of yourself.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But performance, productivity, effectiveness, that's a language your boss definitely speaks. I would also find ways to create.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A few habits and systems that will allow you to do your job well even when you don't feel emotionally invested.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Routines, email templates, standing meetings, shortcuts, daily check ins with people, little work sprints you do with yourself. These things really do make a job.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A lot more doable, even if you aren't mourning a loss.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I also find it's easier to service the architecture of a job.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

These routines, the systems and commitments, when.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The substance isn't doing much for you. Powering through the meaninglessness, that's hard. But if you're just feeding the system.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not saying it's going to be super fulfilling, but it can be doable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it can prevent you from falling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Below a certain level of performance, which is key.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On a related note, when it's hard.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To get invested in what you're doing, I find it helpful to focus on really small things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what's one thing you could do well today? What's one way you could make your life easier tomorrow? One conversation that'll move something forward. You'll be amazed by what a handful of just tiny wins can do for you. They really Will keep you in the game. And while you do that, I'd keep.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Looking for jobs, I'd keep scheduling conversations.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It can take a while to find a job you're really excited about, so you have to play the long game.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You got to keep applying, you got.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To keep doing the six minute networking stuff, Keep looking for opportunities to connect.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With people in your industry.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just keep putting dots on the board.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And you can connect them backward later on.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. But also, just given where you are right now, like Jordan said, it's possible that no work is going to be very meaningful to you in this period. And who knows how this loss might affect how you show up in interviews or how excited you're able to get about these goals. I know you feel stuck, and if there's a way out of it, great, go take it. I'm all for it. But it's also possible that you need to just be in this stage for a little while before you land a new job. In addition to everything we've been talking about, please also just give yourself some time and space to really grieve your friend. Your main job right now might just be to cry and think about Raquel and journal and talk about her and. And yeah, that might be more important than writing cover letters. Maybe you need to go to yoga and sleep a couple extra hours every night and honor the weird rhythms of grief more than you need to be booking coffee meetings with people. And I am not saying you can't do both. If you're up for it, if you feel like you can handle it, if you need to get out of this job, go for it. And who knows? Look, for some people, grief can be really galvanizing. It might even end up fueling your job search in some way. But I think what Jordan was getting at earlier is losing someone close to you. It reminds you that you're a human being first and you're a professional second. Reorients the whole universe as it should. So do what feels right. But also don't miss this crucial stage that you're in, because it is profound and it's also a way to take care of yourself and to honor Raquel. And I think that is really important as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, good point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This might be a parallel process, but also it might not be. And that's okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But whatever you do, invite the grief in. There are no shortcuts here. This phase you're in at work, whether you stay or leave, it won't be forever. Everything evolves, everything shifts. Until then, the best thing you can do is be intentional about your grief.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

About what you need from your boss, about how you spend your time, what.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kind of job you look for next. And like I said, that's the one big gift of a loss.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This big. It really does have a way of making us realize what matters.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So take this time to get clear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

On what that means to you. Talk about it with friends, with a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Therapist, with family, journal about it, whatever that looks like.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I promise it'll all start to make sense. Hang in there my friend.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We're sending you a huge hug thinking about Raquel and we're rooting for you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As you chart your next move.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Go back and check out Richard Reeves as well as our Skeptical Sunday on Bananas. I mentioned it before, I'll say it again.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sixminutenetworking.com it is a relationship development course. It takes a few minutes a day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them in non cringy, non gross ways.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sixminutenetworking.com the course is free.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You can also connect with me on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlauskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anything you hear on the show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Could use the advice we gave here today.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show about how hormonal birth control can affect a woman's personality and even influence who they pick as a partner.

[Unknown]

Hormones affect the way that our brain does its daily business, and that includes things like attraction. You know, there's a lot of research that shows that for both men and women, it's like the cues that we tend to find as sexy and beautiful in women are cues that are related to estrogen presence and Fertility, our sex hormones are part of what creates the experience of being who we are. And all of it is helping to guide our behavior in ways that are actually really adaptive and functional. Estrogen loves testosterone, and that's, you know, just kind of the way that it is. How does taking the pill change women's sexual psychology? And how does that change their sexual behavior? And I also think that there's, there is a tendency to trivialize the types of side effects that we have from the pill because, you know, when you look at some of the most frequently occurring side effects, it's things like depression, like a complete absence of sex drive. I mean, it can really change behavior in ways that can not always be necessarily what we want. They're not one size fits all, and everybody's going to respond a little bit differently. And so it's just important that you know that these things are possible so you know what to look out for them. There's, there is nothing that will derail a person's life more than an unplanned pregnancy. And this is particularly true in our current environment where women aren't able to get safe, legal abortions in many states. I am for you having all the information that you need to be able to make the decision that's right for you. Because what is the right decision for you might not be the same decision that's right for me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To HEAR More from Dr. Sarah Hill about the problems with taking birth control, check out episode 280 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Vital Proteins. I want to tell you about vital proteins. Collagen peptides.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a mouthful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a daily supplement that supports your hair, skin, nails, bones and joints all in one, in one simple step each day. Collagen makes up about a third of the protein in our bodies. But as we hit our 30s, it unfortunately starts to decline. That's when you might notice things aren't working quite like they used to. Your joints, your skin, maybe even your hair. Vital Protein steps in to help keep those areas supported so you can stay active and keep doing what you love. Vital Proteins is the number one collagen.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Peptide brand in the US So they.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Know what they're doing. It's super easy to take. Just add a serving to your coffee, smoothie, even water. It doesn't even taste like anything, so.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It blends right in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The key is consistency. Making it a daily habit is how you see the benefits.

[Unknown]

Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and enter promo code Jordan at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

At Capella University, learning the right skills could make a difference. That's why our business programs teach you relevant skills you can take from the course room to the workplace. A different future is closer than you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Think with Capella University.

[Unknown]

Learn more at Capella. Eduardo.