Summary of "The Jordan Harbinger Show" Episode 1140: Mark Follman | How to Stop Mass Shootings in America

Title: The Jordan Harbinger Show
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Guest: Mark Follman
Episode Number: 1140
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Description: In this episode, Jordan Harbinger engages in a deep and thoughtful conversation with Mark Follman about the pervasive issue of mass shootings in America. They explore the underlying causes, debunk common myths, and discuss proactive measures to prevent such tragedies.

Introduction to the Issue

Jordan Harbinger opens the episode by acknowledging the gravity of the topic—mass shootings—and his initial hesitance to delve into it due to its depressing nature. However, he emphasizes the importance of discussing it constructively to explore solutions rather than merely lamenting the problem.

Quote:
Jordan Harbinger (00:58): "What we can look for, what we can do about it, not just lament the problem because that's all they do on the news anyways."

Understanding Mass Shootings: Beyond Gun Control

Mark Follman introduces the concept that gun control alone isn't the solution to mass shootings. He highlights the emergence of the field of behavioral threat assessment, which focuses on understanding and mitigating the human behaviors that lead to such violence.

Key Points:

• Behavioral Threat Assessment: A proactive approach to identifying and intervening with individuals exhibiting warning signs of planned violence.
• Emulation Behavior: Perpetrators often seek inspiration and tactical ideas from previous shooters, aiming for notoriety and significance.

Quote:
Mark Follman (00:36): "Shooters look to previous shooters for inspiration and sometimes for tactical ideas too? What I call in the book emulation behavior."

Debunking Myths: Mass Shootings Are Not Just an American Problem

While acknowledging that the United States has a higher incidence of mass shootings compared to countries like Australia or the Czech Republic, Follman clarifies that mass shootings do occur elsewhere, though less frequently.

Key Points:

• The U.S. has a unique combination of high firearm availability and behavioral factors contributing to the frequency of mass shootings.
• Other countries have implemented effective gun control measures, reducing the incidence of such events.

Quote:
Mark Follman (04:41): "We have a much larger number of firearms and they're very easy to get in most places. So therefore it makes sense on a very fundamental level that we have more mass shootings."

The Role of Mental Health: A Complex Relationship

Follman emphasizes that while mental health issues are prevalent among perpetrators, they are not the sole cause of mass shootings. The majority of individuals with mental illnesses are not violent, and attributing mass shootings solely to mental health stigmatizes this population.

Key Points:

• Less than 5% of mass shooters exhibit severe mental illnesses like psychosis or schizophrenia.
• Many shooters make conscious decisions fueled by anger, isolation, and a desire for notoriety.
• Suicidal Homicidal Attacks: Perpetrators often intend to kill themselves alongside others, complicating prevention efforts.

Quotes:
Mark Follman (06:51): "No, that's not quite right. That number, actually that was the number of approximate annual gun deaths in America at the time that the book was published."

Jordan Harbinger (14:30): "Quarterly reminder that most mentally ill people are not dangerous in any way."

Case Study: Elliot Rodger and the Incel Movement

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Elliot Rodger, whose 2014 massacre in Isla Vista became a pivotal case in understanding mass shootings. Follman delves into Rodger's background, highlighting his meticulous planning, behavioral signs, and online activities that signaled his intent.

Key Points:

• Planning and Preparation: Rodger acquired firearms 18 months prior, conducted surveillance, and expressed grievances online.
• Online Footprint: His involvement in incel forums provided him with a narrative to justify his actions.
• Intervention Opportunities: Despite warning signs, intervention failed due to Rodger's ability to conceal his intentions effectively.

Quotes:
Mark Follman (17:56): "He was planning that attack for years in some form. I mean, it was more nascent, I would say two years ahead. But he already had the violent ideation going about attacking in that community."

Mark Follman (22:58): "He had grievances against women, as he perceived that no women ever paid any attention to him. And he developed this, like, kind of delusional loathing about them."

Media Coverage and Its Impact

Follman discusses the role of media in shaping the narrative around mass shooters. He argues for responsible reporting that focuses on identifying the perpetrator and understanding their motivations without sensationalizing their actions, which can inadvertently inspire copycats.

Key Points:

• No Notoriety Movement: A push for media to minimize attention on shooters to reduce their motivation for fame.
• Balanced Reporting: Essential for public understanding and preventing misinformation or conspiracy theories.

Quote:
Mark Follman (33:42): "I do think it's very important to have good, solid, dispassionate reporting on what's happening. Follow the evidence, tell the story."

Behavioral Threat Assessment in Practice

Follman elaborates on how threat assessment teams operate within communities, particularly schools, to identify and intervene with individuals showing warning signs of potential violence.

Key Points:

• Warning Signs: Include threatening communications, behavioral changes, social isolation, interest in violent content, and triggering life events.
• Intervention Strategies: Counseling, academic support, family involvement, and ensuring restricted access to firearms.
• Community Involvement: Encouraging "see something, say something" to empower bystanders to report concerns.

Quote:
Mark Follman (67:46): "If you're concerned about someone in a way that maybe they're becoming dangerous, either to themselves or others, that's the point at which you should seek help."

The Importance of Prevention Over Reaction

Follman advocates for shifting resources toward prevention rather than solely relying on reactive measures like lockdown drills and physical security enhancements, which have limited efficacy in stopping mass shootings.

Key Points:

• Prevention Focus: Addressing the root behavioral and social factors that lead individuals toward violence.
• Resource Allocation: Training and empowering threat assessment teams within educational and community settings.
• Effectiveness of Prevention: Potentially more impactful in reducing the incidence of mass shootings compared to reactive measures.

Quote:
Mark Follman (82:13): "Why aren't we talking about stopping this before it happened? So it's the prevention versus reaction equation that I think is still very out of balance."

Practical Steps for Communities and Individuals

The conversation highlights actionable steps that communities and individuals can take to aid in preventing mass shootings:

1. Recognize Warning Signs: Be vigilant about changes in behavior, expressions of anger or frustration, and threatening communications.
2. Report Concerns: Utilize the "see something, say something" approach to inform authorities or threat assessment teams.
3. Support Systems: Foster strong social connections and provide access to mental health resources.
4. Restrict Access to Firearms: Implement safe storage practices and consider policies that limit easy access to guns for high-risk individuals.

Quote:
Mark Follman (87:37): "If you're worried about someone, trust that feeling and reach out for help."

Conclusion: A Path Forward

Jordan Harbinger and Mark Follman conclude the episode with a reaffirmation of the potential to mitigate mass shootings through a multifaceted approach that prioritizes behavioral assessment, community intervention, and responsible media reporting. Follman expresses hope that by addressing the human behaviors underpinning these tragedies, progress can be made toward significantly reducing their occurrence.

Quote:
Mark Follman (95:55): "I saw it as very hopefully, because it's another way to look at the problem, another way to try to think about solving it."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mark Follman (00:36): "Shooters look to previous shooters for inspiration and sometimes for tactical ideas too? What I call in the book emulation behavior."
• Mark Follman (04:41): "We have a much larger number of firearms and they're very easy to get in most places. So therefore it makes sense on a very fundamental level that we have more mass shootings."
• Mark Follman (14:30): "There are millions of people who suffer from clinically diagnosable mental illnesses. And there are decades of studies showing there is no meaningful correlation that is predictive in any way of violence."
• Mark Follman (17:56): "He was planning that attack for years in some form. I mean, it was more nascent, I would say two years ahead. But he already had the violent ideation going about attacking in that community."
• Jordan Harbinger (14:34): "I always have to do that because whenever we talk about mental illness and we talk about crime associated with anything like this, we get emails from people who are like, hey, my life's hard enough without you guys painting with this hugely broad brush that says schizophrenic people or people who have bipolar disorder are potential mass shooters."
• Mark Follman (33:42): "I do think it's very important to have good, solid, dispassionate reporting on what's happening. Follow the evidence, tell the story."
• Mark Follman (67:46): "If you're concerned about someone in a way that maybe they're becoming dangerous, either to themselves or others, that's the point at which you should seek help."
• Mark Follman (82:13): "Why aren't we talking about stopping this before it happened? So it's the prevention versus reaction equation that I think is still very out of balance."
• Mark Follman (95:55): "I saw it as very hopefully, because it's another way to look at the problem, another way to try to think about solving it."

Final Thoughts

This episode with Mark Follman provides a comprehensive exploration of mass shootings in America, emphasizing the need for a behavioral and preventative approach over purely reactive or punitive measures. By understanding the complex interplay of factors that lead individuals to commit such acts, communities can better position themselves to identify and intervene before tragedies occur.

Note: For more insights and detailed discussions, listeners are encouraged to read Mark Follman's book "Trigger Points," where he delves deeper into the strategies and methodologies of behavioral threat assessment.