1145: Rwanda 2025 | Out of the Loop

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show - Episode 1145: "Rwanda 2025 | Out of the Loop" Summary

Release Date: April 27, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show, host Jordan Harbinger engages in a deep and urgent conversation with experts Nathan Paul Southern and Lindsey Kennedy. The discussion delves into the harrowing realities of cyber slavery, human trafficking within scam call centers, and the escalating conflict between Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) over mineral resources. This episode unravels the intricate connections between organized crime, international corporations, and geopolitical tensions, painting a stark picture of modern-day exploitation and its global implications.

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1. Unveiling Cyber Slavery and Scam Call Centers

Phnom Penh's Dark Underbelly The conversation begins with an update on scam call centers in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, highlighting the grim reality that many workers are coerced into labor under dire conditions. Lindsey Kennedy describes the environment:

"We're seeing loads and loads of young, mostly guys every day arriving from like India, Pakistan, Nepal... looking frightened and then sort of getting upstairs to the dorm rooms to work for scams." [05:28]

Magnitude of the Issue Nathan Paul Southern estimates the scale of cyber slavery, asserting that Cambodia alone harbors tens of thousands of forced laborers:

"A general estimate of tens and tens of thousands of people in Cambodia alone... is a fair representation of full on objective forced labor." [07:00]

Kennedy adds that the proliferation of scam compounds is overwhelming:

"There's just so many people arriving every day and we never see anyone leave." [09:52]

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2. The Nexus of Organized Crime

Global Crime Networks The episode explores the symbiotic relationships between scam call centers and international organized crime groups, including North Korea, Yakuza, Chinese triads, and the Russian mafia. Southern emphasizes the complexity:

"Criminal groups don't care about diplomatic ties. And if you're making money, you're making money." [30:18]

Funding Through Scams The trio discusses how these scams are not only exploitative but also serve as significant funding sources for these criminal organizations:

"This industry is indirectly helping to fund North Korea as well, sometimes directly funding North Korea." [27:53]

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3. Rwanda and Congo: A Battle Over Minerals

Historical Context Lindsey Kennedy provides a background on the Rwandan genocide and the formation of the M23 militia, which has devastated regions in the DRC:

"The M23 was storming refugee camps of ethnic Hutu people... committing mass rape as a weapon of war, murdering indiscriminately, and then taking over mines." [39:48]

Misappropriation of Funds A significant revelation is the misuse of UK funds intended for refugee resettlement in Rwanda, which instead empowered the M23 militia:

"At the exact moment when the UK signed this deal with Rwanda... is the exact moment when the M23 suddenly reappear and start massacring people again." [36:33]

Current Conflict Dynamics The ongoing conflict has led to the capture of mineral-rich territories, exacerbating the humanitarian crisis and fueling further violence:

"Six weeks ago... they took North Kivu... now they have access to a lot of the world's cobalt, gold, and various other minerals." [55:48]

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4. Corporate Greed and Government Complicity

Ethical Dilemmas in Mineral Sourcing The episode critically examines how major corporations like Apple and Tesla are complicit in unethical mineral sourcing from the DRC:

"There's no such thing as ethical cobalt. The cobalt that we need... there's no possible way for companies like Tesla or Apple to claim there's no such thing." [47:33]

Private Military Contractors and Neo-Colonialism Private military entities, such as those led by Erik Prince, are implicated in securing these resources, aligning with both Russian and Chinese interests:

"Erik Prince has met with the President of the Congo. It's likely that Trump won't want to put his own troops on the ground, but could offer private military contractors." [57:33]

Influence of Tech Giants The introduction of Starlink by Elon Musk into conflict zones like the DRC symbolizes the intertwining of technology and exploitation:

"Starlink receivers doing your Internet, then you don't need to worry about anyone bringing them down." [10:14]

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5. Implications for U.S. National Security

Oligarchic Control Southern argues that corporate oligarchs are increasingly influencing U.S. national security, posing a threat akin to what traditional state actors like Russia and China represent:

"Oligarchs are running the most powerful country and the most powerful military in the world." [68:51]

Fragmented Domestic Unity The conversation shifts to internal U.S. divisions, which adversaries exploit to weaken national security:

"They think that, hey, you can't even empathize... It's a real tragedy." [71:19]

Future Conflicts Harbinger speculates on potential conflicts driven by resource wars, emphasizing the role of AI and drone warfare:

"What's almost certainly going to happen is some sort of conflict with China. And that conflict is going to involve a lot of AI and drone warfare." [60:24]

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6. Conclusion: A Call to Awareness and Action

The episode culminates in a sobering reflection on the intertwined nature of global exploitation, organized crime, and corporate interests, urging listeners to recognize and address these pervasive threats.

"It's like a proxy colonialist war in the making to get these elements so that we can make AI chips, basically." [58:55]

"Oligarchs are running the most powerful country and the most powerful military in the world." [68:51]

Harbinger commends Southern and Kennedy for their courageous reporting and underscores the urgency of the issues discussed, highlighting the need for informed action and systemic change.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cyber Slavery: Tens of thousands are trapped in scam call centers in Cambodia, often under duress and connected to global crime syndicates.

• Organized Crime: Scam operations fund powerful groups like North Korea’s cyber factions, Yakuza, Chinese triads, and the Russian mafia, perpetuating global insecurity.

• Rwanda-Congo Conflict: Misappropriated funds intended for refugee resettlement have empowered militias like M23, exacerbating violence over control of vital minerals.

• Corporate Complicity: Major tech companies unknowingly or knowingly rely on unethical mineral sources, perpetuating cycles of exploitation and conflict.

• National Security Threats: The rise of corporate oligarchs influencing U.S. national security mirrors traditional geopolitical threats, highlighting vulnerabilities within domestic unity.

• Future Conflicts: Resource-driven conflicts involving advanced technologies like AI and drones are imminent, driven by unchecked corporate and oligarchic ambitions.

This episode serves as a critical exposé on the dark intersections of human trafficking, organized crime, and global resource conflicts, urging listeners to stay informed and advocate for meaningful reforms.

Notable Quotes:

• "There is no real way of figuring this out that's really accurate. But one of the big anti-scam organizations recently calculated that they think that around a trillion dollars a year is stolen through scams." – Jordan Harbinger [10:14]

• "We've got to stop it... these oligarchs are running the most powerful country and the most powerful military in the world." – Nathan Paul Southern [68:51]

• "There is no such thing as ethical cobalt. The cobalt that we need inside lithium batteries to recharge, there's no such thing." – Lindsey Kennedy [47:33]

• "This industry is indirectly helping to fund North Korea as well, sometimes directly funding North Korea." – Nathan Paul Southern [27:53]

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For more insights and detailed information, listeners are encouraged to visit the show notes at jordanharbinger.com and explore additional resources linked within the episode.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Nathan Paul Southern]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Lindsey Kennedy]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Lindsey Kennedy]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional organized crime figure, arms dealer, drug trafficker or former jihadi. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, an out of the loop episode with our friends Nathan Paul Southern and Lindsey Kennedy. They were on earlier a few years ago cracking open these scam call centers and how many of them are actually run by human traffickers and slave labor. So all those scam calls, scam texts you get are often by people being held against their will. And today we'll do an update on the cyber slavery thing, people being trafficked into those scam call centers. Also the connection between cyber slavery, North Korea, Yakuza, triads and other organized crime groups, as well as scam call centers. Plus an update on what the heck is going on in Rwanda and Congo. Surprisingly, they're actually connected in some ways. Congo and Rwanda are actually fighting over control of mineral resources with the help of Russian, US and other foreign private military companies. This, however, is an insane new level of conflict which not only involves governments, but also involves corporations which hire armed groups to fight one another for natural resources. Yes, it is as crazy as it sounds. So here we go, out of the loop on cyberslavery and Rwanda with Nathan, Paul Southern and Lindsey Kennedy. Every time I talk to you guys, it's a weird time over there. And yes, there's time zone stuff, but I just get the idea that your city, Phnom Penh in Cambodia is just 24 hour operation. Is that accurate?

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah. Nathan is literally sitting in a 24 hour bar next to the flats.

[Jordan Harbinger]

24 hour bar. Sounds like it could be a dangerous place. Not just for you as somebody who likes to drink a little bit, but for the type of clientele that a 24 hour bar attracts. Sounds like it could go from the backpacker all the way up to who's at a bar at 7 o'clock in the morning. That's basically the question.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Very sad. Retired men who are here to look for very young girlfriends.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Oh God.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

That's normally who you see. Or people just finishing their scam center shifts. That's also a common thing.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

I see we have had the odd Belgian pedophile.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Was that Belgian pedophiles?

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah, it was a 12 year old or a 10 year old boy that he was with and he was like 15. Yeah, yeah, gross.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

But we tweeted about it at the time when the Belgian embassy got in touch within minutes and said, can you give us all his details? And we're going to try and get him on the way out of the country.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So they did take it seriously. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's interesting. That's good to hear. Because you think, oh, hey, there's a pedophile here. It's not in our country. Yeah, he's holding one of our passports. But what are we to do? But they were just kind of like, oh, this is making us look bad. Let's arrest this guy.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

As much as we're about to really dump on the Belgians for like decades and decades of some of the most horrific abuse in the Congo, pretty much everywhere they go, one thing they're really good at is they've got a really good global anti pedophile division and they really pursue it. That's their line. Global pedophiles, they do try to stop and they make calls. That's one thing the Belgians really have going for them. So, yeah, good for them on that. They made an arrest, which is quite cool. And also very rare in general in Cambodia.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You guys are in the thick of it. The reason that this is relevant is because you guys are not just like, oh, I've read a book about this, or I've researched this. It's your neighbors are literally the people that you cover. Which is somewhat uncomfortable, I would imagine.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah, it's a bit nuts because. Yeah. So a lot of our work is on the scam industry and we often write about how whole kind of towns have been taken over and turned into kind of scam hubs. But in cities like Phnom Penh, you also have these kind of mini scam compounds that go more under the radar. And on either side of the building we live in, there are new ish Indian restaurants that are very much fronts for scam compounds. Upstairs you just see loads and loads of young, mostly guys every day arriving from like India, Pakistan, Nepal, like very much the Indian subcontinent, looking frightened and then sort of getting upstairs to the dorm rooms to work for scams. And it's horrible to see for a start, because some of those guys are allowed out and seem to be more middle management. Some of them, we know aren't allowed out, but from a purely practical point of view, all night sometimes we can hear them building, like almost like over our building. They're like expanding and building the construction over the top of us. It also just continually jams the Internet and phone signal. So just the sheer effort of trying to write about scam centers is currently being interfered with by the building of the scam centers on either side of us, which is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's crazy.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Horrible ironing. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How many people do you think are in the buildings that are near you? Because I know last time you were on the show we covered the scam centers because I was trying to get behind the pig butchering scam and how it works. And you had said, hey, by the way, a lot of these people are tricked into it, trafficked into it. It's interesting. Now, I see this is almost common knowledge. People go, oh, you know, these people are trafficked into it. Before you had told me this a couple years ago, I hadn't heard about it anywhere. I couldn't find coverage on it anywhere. So it was almost like you guys sort of broke this. And now everybody's saying, hey, these people are trafficked. They're victims. You see some crackdowns. But I'm curious how many people you think are working in a scam center adjacent to where you live, if you had to guess.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

So I think there's this new wave of justification of what's happening, where there was an acceptance, like you said there was, okay, this is happening. There's huge amounts of forced labor happening around the world. And now it's become such a difficult issue to deal with. But I think the new narrative, and it's often adopted by various embassies that are trying to smooth over relations with certain countries in the region that actually most of these people come here willingly and then that's just not true. There are people who come here willingly and there's people who very much don't. The Indian, Sri Lankan, Pakistani contingent. They're still an area of the world that you can recruit people directly to Cambodia and they don't know the risks. So if you're recruiting someone from Vietnam, then they know not to go to Cambodia. They know that they'd only take a tech job in Thailand and then they would cross them over the border in a car. But with the South Asian people, that's not being spread as well, a message. So they're coming straight into the airport and we see basically the Chinese gangsters behind border control, like where they should not be taking their passports directly off them. I tell them, they tell the cops, hey, man, these guys are getting trafficked. I've been pushed back by the cops as they do it. So with these guys, I've spoken to them and they say, yeah, look, we're doing crypto that turns in online gambling scams. They admit that. They say it all. And then I say, well, who can leave? And like for us, it is 50 50. The marketing guys, they're allowed to leave, but the workers are the operators. They have different little names for them. They can't leave until they earn enough points. And then we see it for the city, there's these different levels. There's thousands and thousands of people just in prompt who just fundamentally can't leave and are still tortured with tasers and the most horrific ways you can imagine. And then there's so many people though, that then get rescued or leave, that have so much shame. And that's like horrible psychological barrier of what they've been forced to do for two years. So they see themselves as that. So they can't return home to the Philippines or to Uganda or to the Congo because they're worried their families going to know what they do. Then they enter it back into it willingly. But then that still is part of Human trafficking, because even though they enter willingly, then their freedoms are again removed. So even if you enter into criminality and your passport's taken off you and you're tased or you're beaten, or you're tortured and you're not allowed to leave because you're not hitting numbers, then you're still forced into it. So anyone that claims to know the numbers of who's forced and who's not, they're just lying. You would know. But a general estimate of tens and tens of thousands of people in Cambodia alone, and again in Myanmar and a little bit less in Laos is a fair representation of full on objective forced labor. And then there's a lot of gray area within that as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So on each side of our building, I think there's probably about maybe six, seven floors. And I would say there's like maybe a couple of hundred people in each one of those. And then you multiply that across the city and you think how many there are. Just in some small buildings, like, we're not quite entirely sure how many people are squeezed into each room, but there must be at least hundreds on either side of us because we see so many people arrive every day and we never see anyone leave. If you go to the larger areas, the last couple of weeks, we've been doing a bit of a recce of some of the major scam hubs around the country that we've talked about before. At the weekend we went back to Boca Mountain, which used to be a big tourist attraction in Cambodia. It was quite almost like a religious place for a lot of Cambodian people. And they're building a new casino, which is just basically a massive scam compound. Quite clearly, you just count the floors sometimes. And if you're basing it on an average of six to 10 people in a room, you're like, oh, there's gonna be tens of thousands of people just in that one building.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

And down in Kokong right now, you're like, oh, you can probably get. We're counting the floors and we're like, okay, you could probably get maybe 5,000 people in that building. And then you see that they're building 20 of them in a row. And that's just again, one small strip of real estate. So, yeah, a couple of years ago, that was an estimate that came out in Cambodia that said about 120,000. It's probably a lot more than that now, really.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. That's a metropolis of just crime.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah. And I know that this number has been contested because there is no real way of figuring this out that's really accurate. But one of the big anti scam organizations recently calculated that they think that around a trillion dollars a year is stolen through scams. A trillion dollars, that is nearly 1% of the world's wealth every year going in through scams. So the scale is just enormous.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah, a generally accepted figure just for the US would be about $50 billion being stolen each year. And I'll be a big underestimate because most people don't report it, but just 50 billion just from the US alone is like a reasonably accepted number of like a minimum. But to give you a bit of context on what some of these places look like now, okay, we have the dodgy Indian restaurants when they have cell towers that they build on the roof, which is really helpful for us to work out where something's going on because there's a huge cell tower on top of a small Indian or Chinese restaurant, so that really helps. But then you go to some of these places and they are full cities. Nothing else is operating. Part scan Lindsey mentioned Kokong and one of the few people that have been sanctions on the Cambodia side is a guy called Leon Pat. He was sanctioned last year by the US and by the UK and lately around the world. And what he's done is he's went hard on it since. So he owns a bunch of casinos, huge properties, thousands of people. We went back to go Kong since the sanctions and he just started blowing up mountains. He is blowing up mountains everywhere so that he can build more and more scam compounds. And these are like Hilton size kind of buildings and there's 20 of them. The Boker Mountain that Lindsay was saying being a tourist site. Have you an idea of that? It's like you drive up in a little scooter and there's monkeys and it's beautiful. And there's like a haunted Catholic church where there was a massacre from the Khmer Rouge, but it's still like a tourist spot. And then you go to like the old Boker palace again, shelled out and stuff but interesting to see and some shrines and things. It's covered in mist so it's really atmospheric anyway. But now you go up and if you look just beyond the mist, you still see all backpackers taking selfies. They don't realize that those 30 buildings behind them in the selfie are scam compounds. They didn't exist two years ago and they're absolutely everywhere.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

There's been a huge shift in the last few months. There's been an Enormous push towards recruitment from people from East Africa, especially Burundi, Rwanda and the drc, which coincided with the conflict escalating in that region. It's really depressing because every time you start to see another explosion of war, any kind of conflict or genocide, all of this stuff, this flooding of people into scam centers because they are so easy to recruit, because they're desperate, right? It's like an early warning sign sometimes that you know how bad things are getting when you see who's being recruited. And this also means there's a larger Francophone, French speaking population here that can target French victims around the world as well.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

And because Phnom Penh is this hub that's just not being touched. There's been like some crackdowns on Thai, Myanmar border. But again, they're pretty superficial at best. And there's reasons for that we could go into, but 7,000 people have been rescued and there's like maybe 200,000 people there. So it's very much a push. Now you get Chinese, private military contractors have taken over the region and loads more casinos have opened up doing the same thing, just further down the border. But no one is talking about Cambodia. No one's looking at Cambodia. So now you've got this really weird situation where I always call like a chamber of commerce for organized crime. But we'll sit in a bar, it could be this fine 24 hour one, or it could be in the main like cocktail like district area of Phnom Penh where backpackers and expats and middle class Cambodians will all go and have espresso martinis and have a little dance. But at the same time, you start looking around, you realize the nationalities have grown a lot from what they were a few years ago. And now we start talking to people in those bars and they could be from the Congo, they could be from Russia, Ukraine, they could be from Uganda, they could be from Vietnam, they could be from the Philippines. And almost so much of the time we start talking, say, so what do you do? Our mates are out with us and we see the eye roll, like, come on, we're just trying to have a normal night in some beers and you guys are about to go into a 10 hour harrowing story like with this person's life story. Or some person has just been rescued from a compound and doesn't want to go home. Or it's some really bored Chinese or Japanese gangster tatted up completely with full body tats. And like they just want to like boast and talk about their life because no one listens to them. And actually, gangsters are quite lonely. So they just want to sit there and say, like, oh, yeah, I work in, like, it watches crypto. Actually, I make this. Actually, I don't. Like, people leave and they just keep talking and talking because no one's listening to them and they're lonely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, look, this sounds like a pretty miserable life, by the way, for people who want to do a deep dive on this episode 833 with both of you, where we talked about sourcing cyberslavery and how it all works in a deep dive level. So these gangsters are essentially tricking people into coming to work in these scam centers. They say there's a tech job in Thailand or whatever. Then they trick them into coming across the border. They get trapped in these prison fake casino call center things where they can't leave, and they have to text people and say, hi, this is Sherry. Is this Don Great dinner party last week or whatever. Crypto scam. These gangsters, they live there. It seems like a pretty miserable existence. Right? Because, yes, you're not a cyber slave, but you still work in this prison casino. And what you look forward to is going getting drunk at night and then waking up and doing it all over again. I mean, those people are also not living a great life if their only outlet is talking to journalists about how they rob people. No offense.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah, and that's the luckiest ones. We got talking to someone a few weeks ago, a Filipino guy who had been told he had a job in a casino. And I don't think he really realized online gambling is illegal in Cambodia now because it was legal at the time in the Philippines, and only when he arrived realized he's working for this very dodgy crypto platform. That didn't really sink in for a while that it was a scam. And a lot of these places, they recruit people who you work in marketing, and they use marketing language. It's very kind of Wolf of Wall Street. You replicate a real business. People feel like they're working for a real business, so they can almost, like, have a double think until they can't. And so for this guy, it was only really when they did the first rug pull and said, oh, we're shutting down the crypto platform, and then we start a new one and everyone loses their money, that he really clicked at, oh, this is just a scam. And then he hated himself, but he couldn't leave. He knew he couldn't leave. They'd made that very clear. And then when he eventually did say, look, I really can't do this anymore. I feel like a terrible person. I want to leave. He was gang raped by the guards and they continued to gang rape him for a year until he finally found a reason for them to let him go. And so even the threat of violence and the knowledge that it can happen for people is often enough to keep them in line, right? As well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, of course. Geez. So by the way, the rug pull, for people who don't really understand what this is, this is where they create a fake crypto platform. They trick you into putting your money in. They make it look like your money's growing, but you can't really take your money out. And then eventually, when enough people are onto them or the site starts getting blocked by who knows, whatever, certain firewalls, or there's enough negative reviews online about how it's a scam, et cetera, they just close it down and they make a new one with new branding, a new URL. And that's the rug pull where even people who are in the middle of the scam who might think it's working, they just can't log in because it's gone. And that's the end of that.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Just to quickly jump back to what you were saying, though, Jordan, about it's a rough life for the perbie gangsters. And, like, it depends where you are, right? Like, you can be in one of the war torn parts of Myanmar where your movement's really, really restricted, or you can be in Trompeh. It's okay. There's a lot of people who just love here because it's like a fun, nice place too. But we go into these places usually when they've been cleared out briefly and see what they're like. And you can see the massive efforts they go to, like, give the gangsters, like a nice happy time. And that usually means the most depressing casino that you can imagine is like a bunch of very sad, heavily tattooed Chinese dudes just like, smoking and just like gambling away everything that they've just earned upstairs. And it's in the same room. And then they've got like barbershops, they've got bars, they've got karaoke bars, they've got girls and drugs on tap and you see all of this. And then they can get their Ferrari, they can get the Rolls Royce, and this developing country is absolutely full of these cars and they can drive up and down in them. But yeah, eventually it just starts to feel pretty dull in like, why are we doing this? But that's why some of these places. Now there's a new place that's really developed near the Vietnam border in Cambodia called Svetan. And there it's like these big terrifying scam compounds. But they've also recently built a lovely promenade that goes over the war. Just looking over Vietnam and now you see all that. The gangsters are coming out and their families are moving out. It's like a family posting now. So they're starting to see this as a long term investment as a new crime type. So they want to get people in who know what they're doing and keep them for longer than six months. So some places are going to efforts to make this nicer for the criminal syndicates as well. Certain levels of the syndicates, yeah, for certain levels, yeah. The low level people were still getting tortured in horrific conditions. But for the top triads and Yakuza and Russian mafia and whatever, they're getting prominent.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

And unfortunately it's going to get a lot worse now because Trump's executive order extravaganza canceled funding for pretty much any form of investigation in this part of the world. Shut down usip, which was the biggest organization in the world that was actually trying to track and investigate and prevent these groups from growing and from targeting Americans. That organization was. He shut down RFA and voa, two of the only free press newspapers that are funded by the US and left in the region. The day that it was shut down, the leaders of Cambodia and China celebrated publicly and thanked Trump for shutting down the newspapers that had been criticizing them and exposing corruption in their countries, which is great, but also shut down funding for things like any form of support for trafficking victims. There have been safe houses in Phnom Penh that we know have been shut down because they partially had American funding and they were shut down overnight. So now even if you want out of a place, your options are more and more limited. And it's just like a massive own goal for the US because in trying to be like, why should we fund the world's problems? We live in a world where you can't escape from the fact that those problems are coming back to bite you. If you stop trying to stop overseas crime, it's going to end up harming you in your own country.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was just going to say the counter to this that people are screaming at their iPhone right now is why should we pay our tax money to help fund to free Filipino trafficking victims or Ugandan trafficking victims trafficked by Chinese gangsters? Why should the US tax dollar go to that and the answer is because they're targeting Americans with this and it costs more in losses that way.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I think there's a general acceptance that Trump's very happy to go against the drug trade. Right. Like Mexican cartels and organized crime that way. Those cartels are very linked up with same groups here in terms of money laundering now as well. It's very linked. But yeah, by just simply by cutting this stuff down internationally, people don't understand. Then you just open it up to allowing so much more pain on U.S. citizens. Taking your pension fund, taking all of your money, all of your savings, huge capital outflow, which is ending up a lot of the time in China, ends up as bit of a power for China as well. And you know, Chinese espionage groups loving the power that they're having over this. And North Korea has increasing interest within this field. And at the same time, you have all these organizations shutting down. You have Starlink in SpaceX coming into Cambodia and declaring a priority investment country. Now the one thing that has happened in Thailand, Cambodia, every now and then the Thais come over to Myanmar and to Cambodia and they bring the cell towers down. Bringing a cell tower down does actually stop a scam compound for days or weeks until you build another one or you move. But you can have Starlink receivers doing your Internet, then you don't need to worry about anyone bringing them down. So now we have destroyed the mediums that people are reporting on this. So Americans are going to know about it less, it's going to happen more, and then it's going to be close to impossible to actually stop them if they do start using Musk's Starlink receivers. And when Musk says the reason they may be interested in Cambodia is the developing country to provide Internet, Internet in Cambodia is fantastic. Most parts of the country are going to be better connection than we get in a lot of Europe. Definitely in the UK they do not require it.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

But also in areas where you don't have the Internet, where people are too poor, in areas that are underserved by WI fi, there is like really good phone coverage with really cheap data. The people who pay for that can't afford to pay for Starlink connections. They can't afford to pay four grand a year when they earn one grand a year. Like that's not going to happen. The only people who are going to be buying Starlink are going to be scam centers. That's the only people here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Slave labor and call centers. No, thank you. Slave labor. Making the fine products and services that support this show. Now that's something I can get behind. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by tonal. Fitness is a huge priority in my life, and if it is for you too, I know the struggle of keeping consistent. Finding time to work out when you got a million things going on is tough, but tonal can help. Tonal is a smart gym that lives on your wall. It is so smart how they're able to fit a full strength training setup into a sleek, compact unit that adjusts to you in real time. With Tonal 2, they've leveled it up even more. The adaptive weight now goes up to 250 pounds and adjusts in 1 pound increments. So it is constant learning and challenging you. It's like having a personal trainer built into your wall. And the new smart view camera gives you real time feedback on your form. What I really love is how tonal tells you what weight to use. It tracks your progress, even knows when your muscles are starting to fatigue. Then it'll automatically adjust the weight mid set, which is pretty damn cool. Tonal also added aero hiit workouts, which are perfect if you want that combo of cardio and strength in one go. So if you're serious about getting stronger, feeling better, saving time, check out tonal. Right now, tonal is offering our listeners $200 off your Tonal purchase with promo code Jordan. That's Tonal.com and use promo code Jordan for $200 off your purchase. That's T-O-N-A-L.com promo code Jordan for $200 off. This episode is also sponsored by simplisafe. So we had a break in a couple months ago while we were home. Yeah, nothing like waking up to find out somebody snooping around your house uninvited and banging in your window. So the whole neighborhood was on edge. We were on edge, obviously. Naturally, our very sweet and suddenly very organized neighbors jumped into action. Next thing you know, we got an official neighborhood watch. There's a neighborhood watch sign up. Now there's a group chat. I even attended the neighborhood watch meeting, which included very passionate retirees grilling a young, very patient cop with questions like, what's the legal protocol for tackling porch pirates like a small town sitcom? But one thing that did come out of that chaos was a solid reminder. If you don't already have a home security system, what is stopping you? That's where simplisafe comes in. No installers, no drilling into walls, no tech degree required. Jen set ours up in an afternoon you get everything, cameras, sensors, 247 monitoring. And you can keep tabs on your home right from your phone, whether you're out running errands or halfway across the country. And after what we went through, that sense of security is priceless. But right now, it's actually priced pretty nicely. Head to SimpliSafe.com Jordan to get 50% off a new system with professional monitoring plus your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com Jordan there's no safe like Simplisafe. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators, investigative journalists every single week, it's because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. And of course Lindsey and Nathan. They rely on these types of skills to do their job. And we're teaching you how to build your network for free [e-mail] this course is about improving your relationship building skills. Whether it's for source if you're a journalist, booking guests if you're a podcaster, or just to build your social circle in your professional circle. The course does all of that in a super easy, non cringe, down to earth way. No awkward strategies, no cheesy tactics in a few minutes a day. And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the [e-mail] all right, now back to Nathan, Paul Southern and Lindsey Kennedy. It's interesting to mention North Korea because I always thought, how come North Korea is not in on this? Because there's a lot of pressure being put on Cambodia, there's pressure being put on Myanmar. The ties are going in and cutting down the cell towers. North Korea can just build their own infrastructure, use their own Internet infrastructure or Chinese Internet infrastructure and nobody could ever go in there and rescue people. Pressure people. Write about it. You can't live next to the scam center. I mean, they could create a special economic zone, build 100 scam centers and generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year for the regime. I feel bad giving them this idea, but I'm sure they have it already. And it sounds like they're already on the move.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

They're making a lot more money, I think out of selling the technology at the moment. They make a lot of the technology used to scam like the basic platforms, North Korea and they sell them mostly. Yeah. So this is a bit of strange system like so in Japan and Korea. The Yakuza, like, which is like the kind of the largest mafia group in Japan. A huge proportion of the Yakuza are actually ethnic Korean. For like historical reasons, Korean people, especially of North Korean descent, were treated really badly in Japan. And one of the only sources of support and of Korean language education in Japan for a long time was provided by an organization called the Chongron, which is a North Korean organization. And they're still allowed to operate in Japan. They provide very pro North Korean language education programs and schooling to a huge number of people in Japan. So a huge number of the Yakuza are ethnic Korean and they also then spread into South Korea itself, which means you have basically a very powerful crime group which contains a number of people who are loyal to North Korea. And they've been partnering more with Chinese triads as well. We see it here all the time as there's more and more collaboration. So that was one link in. But also North Korea has been shown without a doubt now to be using quite a lot of the financial systems owned by scam company owners here who have developed their own banking systems and payment platforms. They're using those to move money from some of their massive heists. A couple of weeks ago there was the world's biggest heist when North Korea stole $1.5 billion in one day or something like.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah, from Ethereum.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

It was a Dubai based crypto exchange and they'd been moving that money partly through Cambodian scam center owners. Like financial platform. That's not in doubt, that's just the fact. Yeah, so like North Korea is very wired into this and it makes sense. Yeah, it's very much in their wheelhouse. So this is something else that we've been trying to scream from the rooftops is that this industry is indirectly helping to fund North Korea as well, sometimes directly funding North Korea.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So we're funding organized crime, but also we're funding states that want to threaten with weapons and war other countries in the region or even the United States. Yes, that is wild, that money.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Because North Korea is very good at cyber attacks, ransomware and theft proudly so much as scams. Like we said, they sell a tech for that on that theft. The group that they gave it to will just call them out. They're called wyon and they're a Cambodian financial platform that's been called the biggest criminal platform in history. So about 60 to 70 billion dollars went through it last year and we are desperately trying to get it sanctioned by the US Government because that is facilitating not only North Korean movement of money, but also probably a predominant amount of US Money scams coming out here. I think in the New York Times actually just recently covered huayongpei. And interestingly, again, we're not sanctioning and we believe that there is maybe a link between people like Elon Musk having financial interests here that mean that we're not actually protecting, say, U.S. citizens, if you just want to make it simple. And again, I think that kind of Elon Musk link and the billionaire link, like, I think that is something. What they're doing abroad is not being discussed in the same level. What's happening internally. And that's probably what would bring us well into the Congo is talking about those exact same billionaires and their interest there and why there is an enormous conflict right now that nobody is talking about, but some of America's top billionaires are getting ready to make an enormous amount of cash and also potentially collaborate with China quietly as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is quite wildly off what we had planned to talk about, but so interesting.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Sorry. Everything leads back to scams. I'm sorry, it does.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I love it. I'm here for it. That's one reason why I love you guys on the show. You did try to segue before. I didn't bite on it. But I have one last question before we do transition to Congo and Rwanda, which is if the Yakuza, the Russian mob, and the Chinese triads, probably, among others, are all in the same industry in the same area, do they have conflicts with one another? Because traditionally, it seems like those guys wouldn't all want to hang out and then do business in the same place.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

I have literally walked into a bar in Cambodia and seen a Russian guy, a Ukrainian guy, and a Polish guy who all work together to develop some of the tech platforms that they sell to Chinese triads to run these scams. This is what's amazing is that criminal groups don't care about diplomatic ties. And if you're making money, you're making money, right? Unless you're super, super nationalistic, if anything. To be honest. One of the really fascinating things about, like, the scam industry is that the Taiwanese mafia is massive in this. And one of the reasons they managed to become so massive so quickly is because obviously China doesn't recognize Taiwan as a separate state. And they get very upset if other countries deal with the Taiwanese police. But the Taiwanese, like, senior police, they don't want to go through China either, because they see themselves as a separate state. So what it means is Taiwan gets left out of so Many discussions and so much knowledge sharing. So they can't give intelligence to other governments about Taiwanese gangsters moving into their area and starting scam centers because they're not allowed to talk to them directly without going through China. So for a long time Taiwan just got bigger and bigger. And these Taiwanese gangsters don't mind working with the gangsters from Fujian on the Chinese mainland. They're quite happy to do that, but it's just their governments that won't talk to each other. So often when there's like problems between governments, it actually helps these different groups to forge connections.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the Taiwanese government is not recognized by China and the Chinese government. And of course Taiwan, depending on their relations at the moment, usually not talking to Beijing either. So the Taiwanese mafia can grow and grow. And if let's say Cambodia says, hey, we've got this problem with the Taiwanese mafia, they can tell Taiwan, but Taiwan's not going to turn around and tell China. China's not going to turn around and share with Taiwan. So basically these groups have this information black hole or this giant firewall and they can just take advantage of that by operating with impunity.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

I've been told by people in the know of this that sometimes when Taiwanese senior police actually want to go and talk to their colleagues in other countries and have like proper sit down meetings to talk about the threat, they have to come in on like tourist visas and meet secretly and they can't just go and have a proper meeting because that would piss off China so much that it would damage that country's diplomatic relations. So this is how stupid the situation is that it's all just vanity.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

There's also like a much bigger level is still usually the Chinese gangs that are the bosses of this. So if they collaborate with other groups, they are still usually the heads. Not always, but predominantly. And most of those Chinese criminal bosses have some kind of relationship going back to Beijing. And that may have been when Xi Jinping, that is big crackdown on corruption. And a lot of it was like a soft word to some of these big gangsters saying, listen, you can continue what you're doing and we're not going to throw you in jail, but stop bringing it through China. So that may be stop peddling meth or guns through China or don't do scams or whatever illegal activity. So they went places that you would be accepted. So you go to Cambodia. But what they do is they come in and become these nationalistic gangsters. The views of the Chinese Communist Party abroad, they start business networks where they push, like the one China policy where they promote Belt and Road initiative ideas. And then a lot of these guys have such weird convoluted relationships with the state, sometimes are wanted by them, sometimes are not with China, that essentially they can act as almost as agents of the Chinese state by exerting influence when they need. So by Chinese organized crime groups being the top dogs across Asia and now increasingly getting involved in Latin America, as well as the money laundering groups and also moving fentanyl, that creates an enormous amount of is it soft or is it hard? It's some kind of power for China, and that's something that as well is like a direct threat to the United States national security interest. But it's a hard thing to explain. These guys like Zhou Wei, who owns the King's Romans Golden Triangle Special Economic Zone, he's got these weird relationships with the Chinese government. Several people here, like Dong Luciang in Cambodia, the Prince Group organization here, they all have these back and forth weird relationships with China. And the worry is that actually they are semi acting as agents of espionage the Chinese state, which is allowing them to also do their big mafia stuff. So they make a bunch of money and China reins them in when they want. And when they want to do a little bit of pushing influence on the government, China doesn't need to do that direct. They've got guys with tattoos and guns that they can do in these countries instead. Wow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's like a proxy organized crime group. That's really interesting. Man. We could talk about this for hours. I remember King's Roman's casino. We talked about this a long time ago. And I did an episode on wildlife trafficking where that casino made a cameo. Our guest on episode 545, Rachel Newer, she went undercover there and was seeing people ordering, I don't know, like bear paws and pangolins and stuff at King's Roman's Casino. I can't imagine being around all that. All right, let's transition to the drc. So Congo and Rwanda. And Lindsay, you mentioned that these are connected because the conflict in the Congo, Rwanda, is creating more refugees, and some of those refugees end up getting trafficked to scam centers in Cambodia or wherever. Burma, Myanmar, whatever. So let's start from the top because we haven't covered Congo at all on this show or really Rwanda on this show. What is the latest with this? Because I know that those two countries, they sort of border each other. Rwanda has invaded Congo a couple of times. I don't actually know why. What's the overview of this.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So we were there just over a year ago. We actually went for two reasons. First of all, because we were quite curious to see whether or not there had been French speaking scan centers in that region, which it turned out that we didn't really find much evidence of at the time. Turns out they were all being sent over this way instead. But what the other thing we were looking at is this is probably not as familiar to listeners from outside the uk, but the UK developed this incredibly controversial refugee resettlement plan called the Rwanda. The Rwanda Refugee Plan. And the idea was that the UK was going to start sending all of its refugees to Rwanda for processing, which meant that it had to announce that Rwanda was a safe country and our government had to change, like all of its own advice on Rwanda and its own policy on torture in prisons and media freedom and all this stuff. I had to play it all down to say that Rwanda was a safe country.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

The whole thing was ridiculous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Let me pause you for a second. So refugees that are going to the UK were going to be sent to Rwanda for processing?

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yes, that was the plan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah. So it was essentially modeled after the Australian idea of offshore refugee resettlement. So anyone who they say came here illegally, but that's not a thing. If you arrive in your claim asylum, there's no other legal way to do it unless you're from like two countries. So the idea was that they started saying that Rwanda is a safe country. There's always been a UK government kind of closeness to Kagame and Rwanda after the genocides. So they set up this deal, they said it was a super safe place to be, they can send refugees there and there wouldn't be a problem. The Home Secretary at the time, she went out once and seen this lovely housing development in Kigali, the capital of Rwanda, and said, look how lovely this is. This is delightful. I want the name of the interior decorator. But the only journalists allowed to go were from these kind of selected government friendly right wing rags. Gb News, Telegraph, Daily Mail. So me and Lindsey thought we want to go out and actually understand this refugee policy from the perspective of what's happening on the ground in Rwanda.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So, yeah, I mean, the big thing for us was there'd been lots of argument about the ethics of it, like the morality of it, but we were like, wherever you land on whether it's ethical, we're like, where has the money gone? Because by this point, the UK had sent about a quarter of a billion pounds to Rwanda and not a single person had been resettled. And There was no sign of where the money had gone. And the money just kept being sent and kept being sent. And everyone was incredibly cagey about where the actual money was going. So we were like, okay, well, we want to go there and we want to see where this money is being spent. And the only clue that anyone had were that these homes had been built called Buiza, where the Home Secretary gave this speech. So we started there and we went to Buisa. We arrived at the same time as a couple of very nice middle class Rwandan families who were looking for a starter home. And it became very apparent very quickly that this was a housing development for starter homes for middle class families. And we were so confused. And they were showing us around and we just said, I'm a little bit confused because we're from the uk and we were told that this development was going to be homes for resettled refugees. And the guy just went, oh, my God. Like that woman, she just turned up here. They were having like a kind of like passing out ceremony for people who'd finished this construction training thing. And she rocked up as if she was going to be there for that and then just started giving a speech. Apparently, this is what he told us about how the UK had funded this for refugees and just completely made it up. Completely made it up. And it was reported on by friendly press who'd gone with her as if it was true. And it was a complete fuss. No money from the UK government had ever gone to this. And they eventually admitted that no money from the UK government had ever gone to this. So then we're like, okay, well, where did the money go? Where did the money go? It wouldn't have cost anything like that kind of money to build places for refugees to be held. It wouldn't have cost anything like that money to process people. The UK was already going to have to pay for all the flights for people. We were like, where has all this money gone? Then we were told that there was a special fund that would be administered by Rwanda for development. That's where the money went. So we were like, can you give us one example? We asked so many people, can you give us one example? One single example of one project that has been paid for out of this? And no one could give us a single example.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Then we basically looked at the timeline and we realized that the M23, which is an incredibly brutal militia, been Rwanda backed. It initially began years and years ago. And around 2013, it was sanctioned by most of the world. It was conducting horrific massacres in The Congo. The origins of it are that following the genocide in Rwanda, some of the people who had orchestrated that genocide fled to the Congo. This group initially said that its purpose was to hunt down people who had been responsible for murders in Rwanda of the Hutu majority who'd fled to Rwanda, and kill them. But it became very quickly about most people left in refugee camps in the Congo now who are of Hutu origin are children. So they certainly weren't alive at the time of the Rwandan genocide. So it very quickly became that the M23 was sweeping through mostly refugee camps and areas where they were very valuable mines, clearing everybody out, committing mass rape as a weapon of war, murdering indiscriminately, and then taking over mines, because Rwanda doesn't really have any of its own, like coltan mines and stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Let me stop you for a second, because I don't think people know what coltan is or necessarily about this history. So for people who are not as familiar with the Rwandan genocide. So tell us briefly what that is. And then M23, this militia, decides to pursue the perpetrators of this into the Congo. But that's not exactly what worked out.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah. So very briefly. So rwanda borders the DRC, right? The Congo. And in the mid-90s, there was a really horrific genocide where the majority ethnic group, the Hutus, massacred the minority group, the Tutsis. It was really horrific. Some of the people who'd been involved in committing mass murders against the Tutsis fled across the border into the Congo. So at the time, some Rwandan soldiers followed across and tried to hunt these people down. And then this group called the M23 formed quite a few years later. One of their purposes, they said, was to hunt down people who had never faced justice for what they did in Rwanda. The problem was that very quickly it became clear that this group was not pursuing any kind of moral objective. It was storming refugee camps of ethnic Hutu people who'd been displaced by war, most of whom were kids and had nothing to do with the genocide and just massacring people and trying to clear them out of areas where they were valuable mines, basically. Rwanda is a very tiny country. It recently announced that it has all these mines full of very valuable things like coltan and cobalt, basically, things that go in electric cars and batteries, things that the whole world is after right now. It doesn't have any of these. There's absolutely no indication that it genuinely has any of these things. But what it has been doing for about 20 years is stealing a lot of this Stuff from mines on the other side of the border in the DRC in Congo, bringing them across the border and then saying they come from rwanda. So the M23s were instrumental.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Now celebrate the fact that you're not imprisoned in a North Korean scam call center run by Chinese triads by treating yourself to some of the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by flykit. If you travel internationally a lot, jet lag is basically the enemy. We got back from China and Taiwan a couple days ago and the kids are a disaster. At least for me. I follow FlyKit and it makes a huge difference each time. FlyKit is an algorithm based scheduling tailored to your trip details that tells you when to eat, when to sleep and how long and when to take the supplements that you'll receive in the mail. It's like having a personal travel health assistant in your pocket. I've tested it on multiple time zone busting trips and it works every single time. Flykit is of course rooted in Navy SEAL research, bro. And it was initially designed for fighter pilots and athletes to combat the inflammation that flying causes. I was a massive skeptic and I actually was like really annoyed when I found out about this and paid for it. And it was just vitamins and I asked for a refund and it was my friend's company and then he's like, just keep it and try it. And I tried it and I ended up being like, ah, here's your money. Because it worked so well. FlyKit uses AI to time everything from light exposure to meals, all tailored to your specific travel itinerary. And I became an immediate lifelong fan after that. Now I use it on every trip that involves more than a couple time zones. So if you're tired of losing precious days of your life to jet lag, you gotta check out flykit. It's got everything you need in one small organized packet and the app walks you through every step of the way. Go to flykitwith2t's.com so that's f l y K-I-T-T.com to get a flykit for 15% off with code Jordan F L Y k I t t.com promo code jordan. Try it out on your next trip and hit me up. I really want to know what you think. I want to know if it works for everyone as well. I think it's amazing and it's just a must have. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode homes.com knows what when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. This episode is also sponsored in part by Rivero. Rivero is one of the few things I've come across that tackles chronic health issues in a way that actually makes sense. If you or someone in your life is dealing with stuff like diabetes, autoimmune issues, stubborn weight, or that constant something's not right feeling, you know how frustrating it can be. Rivero is an online clinic that treats chronic disease at the root cause. Not with more pills that mask the symptoms, but by dialing in. Usually a high protein diet that's designed to repair your gut, lower inflammation, help your body work the way it's supposed to. And this is not guesswork. They build a personalized plan just for you. The Rivero app gives you everything. Access to your care team, daily coaching, biomarker, tracking a full roadmap to actually start feeling better. And here's the kicker. Most people start to see changes fast. Some are even reducing their meds within weeks. Rivero might be the thing that finally helps you get your energy and your life back on track. Right now, Revero is offering 10% off your first month. Go to Revero.com Jordan to sign up. That's R E V E-R-O.com Jordan here's a little inside scoop you might not be aware of. When you use our promo codes, you're not just scoring a discount, you're also giving the show a big boost. So we don't earn commissions directly from sales and stuff like that, but when companies see that listeners are engaging with an ad on the show, it encourages them to keep supporting us. So if you're planning to sign up for something, please use our codes. They're all [e-mail] deals. It is a win win. You get an awesome deal and you help keep the show going strong. We really appreciate your support. Now back to out of the loop. Apple and Tesla can buy. I mean, I'm not just throwing shade on them. Companies like Apple and Tesla can go and say, look, we got conflict free minerals, they're from Rwanda, but really it's mined by slave kids in the DRC that are being forced by the M23 militia to deliver this stuff or whatever and mine it.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah. Or it's all been cleared off that the people who live there have all been murdered so that the M23s can take over and steal it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

I give a special shout out to Siddharth Kara and his book Cobalt Red, which really dives into the mineral exploitation in the drc. And the huge amount of child slavery is essentially happening.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Episode 807 of this show with Siddharth Kara. If you want a deep dive on the blood of the Congo powers our lives.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

He's amazing guy.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah. And essentially like, he'll explain it very well. But there is no such thing as ethical cobalt. The cobalt that we need inside lithium batteries to recharge, there's no such thing. Some estimates say up to 95% of it comes from the DRC. But even the stuff that doesn't, there's some in Australia, there's some in Kazakhstan. It's mostly all owned by Chinese companies that then refine it all together. So there's no possible way for companies like Tesla or Apple to claim there's no such thing as ethical cobalt. So what's been happening for the last 10 years, quite quietly, is that Rowanda has been smuggling this over the river in boats at dark. They might have small amounts of mining of some materials, but cobalt and gold is coming over from the DRC and then they're claiming it. So this happens at the same time that the UK really cleans up their image by saying that they're a safe country to do that. And at the same time, the European Union offers them 900 million euros and develop their own mining processes to extract these. So everyone gets to pretend that it's from a safe country that's not got child labor, that isn't war minerals, but in actual fact it is. We're stealing it. And Apple knows that, Tesla knows that, everyone knows that.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

But what was so damning about this is the M23, they are essentially, they're a terrorist militia. And back in 2013, Rwanda at that time was enormously reliant on international aid to survive. It was rebuilding after a horrific genocide. In 2013, pretty much the whole world said Rwanda denied. And still occasionally does it flips back and forward. Whether or not it is the M23 or BAX M22. It pretty obviously is. Back in 2013, the UK was one of the countries that said, we're going to cut off all aid to you if the M23s don't go away, basically. And the M23s completely disappeared. Everyone thought that they had gone disbanded.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Overnight, basically, pretty much overnight.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

The minute that the UK said, they.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Stopped taking new territory.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Yeah.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

But they also went really quiet. No one heard them. And then the UK government internally warned itself, like some departments of the UK government warned the leadership at the time in the UK that if they started working with Rwanda, if they started saying Rwanda was a safe country, that it would put them in a dangerous position because they would then be expected to save face, basically deny atrocities, and that there were risks, that if Rwanda started doing stuff like this again, that they would have to take Rwanda side, otherwise it would be too embarrassing, basically. So we knew this as a country, that this was a risk. But what we realized when we got to Rwanda and we started talking to people and we started matching up the timeline, is that at the exact moment when the UK signed this deal with Rwanda, saying, we're going to send you a ton of money to start this refugee resettlement program, is the exact moment when the M23 suddenly reappear after 10 years of silence and start massacring people again. And they shot down like a UN helicopter, they started taking territory. And then the UK just keeps giving them money and giving them money and giving them money, giving Rwanda money. And all of a sudden the M23 has money. And it was pretty obvious that's where all the money was going. It wasn't going anywhere else. And when we asked the UK government about this, they freaked out. They were very careful not to actually deny anything, but they freaked out completely. When we asked the Congolese embassy in London if they were sending money that was meant to be for the resettlement program to the M23s, their reply was, basically, they deserve it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Like, basically, the Congolese deserve it. They didn't deny it either. So by this point, we were like, it was pretty obvious that this money is being used to conduct a genocide. Apart from the fact that this is obviously horrific. One of the great ironies of the situation is, at that time, I think we had a backlog about 90,000 refugees in the UK that needed processing. Within six months, the M23 had created a million internally displaced refugees in the DRC. Meanwhile, as we only found out when we went to Rwanda, inside Rwanda itself, there were already about 700,000 refugees still from the last war with the Congo who had never been able to leave refugee camps and never been processed. And they had been told by the government the only hope of them ever leaving these internal refugee camps in Rwanda is if another country like the UK took them. And when you looked at the fine print of this ridiculous deal the UK made with Rwanda, it actually said that they could also send Congolese refugees to the uk. Now, that entire plan was scrapped when we had a change of government. But had it gone through? In theory, in return for us giving them a quarter of a billion, in theory, for this stupid refugee program, they never took one refugee. They could have, in theory, sent us over a million refugees that they had created using our money. So even outside of the horrors of the war and the genocide that they were committing, the whole thing was just absolutely insane.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

So that's what then took us from Rwanda, around the region. And we started looking at some other groups as well that the Rwandans were funding. There's also a group called the Red Tabara that kind of operates in the drc, but also launches attacks in Burundi. So we went to the Burundi DRC border. We actually kind of got briefly arrested there and detained by the military and the accused of being spies. But we got out of that and then we got to the DRC and then we just seen the destruction of this conflict and it was horrific. But one of the things that really hit us quite quickly, it was opposite our Airbnb. There's not many places to stay in Goma.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

There was one Airbnb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

One Airbnb. Oh my God, that's funny.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

We were in it in North Kyivu, the most war torn part of the Congo. Yeah, it was opposite what was seen to be an Eastern European mercenary base. So we just see all these big white dudes walking around with Valaclavas AK47s and one of them didn't have a Labrador.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wait, did you say Eastern European mercenary base?

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What outfit is this? Is this like Wagner or something else?

[Lindsey Kennedy]

We thought they were Wagner. And everyone kept calling them the Russians. Every kind of like white foreigner, especially of Eastern European descent. Like in the Congo, everyone just calls.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Them the Russians, whether they're Russian or not.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So For a while we thought they were Russian.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, gotcha.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

And then we realized quite quickly that actually they weren't Russian. They were mostly either a French Bulgarian outfit that mostly hires Bulgarians, or this Romanian guy called Horatio Potra, who is very good friends with Erik Prince, who founded Blackwater, famously. And he was in the French Legion. So this is another mad European thing, Right. The French Legion is basically almost like a mercenary force in France that anyone in the world can join, so long as they can pass the physical. So you can go and basically fight.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're talking about the French Foreign Legion, right?

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah, it's absolutely insane situation. This particular group of mercenaries, they're mostly Romanian and they claim to have been the kind of Romanian contingent of the French Foreign Legion. And that's how they started. So you had the Romanians there, you had the Bulgarians there. And then you also had Erik Prince hanging around. And the UN accused him at the time we were there of having actively tried to stir up misinformation about the UN peacekeeping forces to try and create riots that would get the UN kicked out so that he could sell his mercenary forces in. In this then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

So when we were there over a year ago, we started to get really concerned that, because also a lot of these guys also do have links to Wagner. But the Congo at the time had almost signed a bunch of contracts with the Russians because they were running out of options to push back the M23s. But they really didn't want to burn all their bridges with the US and with Europe. And so when the full scale invasion of Ukraine began and sanctions started being put on Russian banks and stuff, they agreed basically to pull back and not use Russian help. But then they were a bit stuck because no one else was really helping them. So they're using all these different small mercenary groups. At the time we were like really concerned that this was going to turn into a kind of proxy war between countries. Exactly. After the fall of Kiva and Goma.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah. You know, essentially there was very much a reason that these guys were reaching out to various mercenary groups. The Congolese forces couldn't fight what was essentially a very well financed, very well armed Rwanda army, which is essentially what M23 was. He couldn't fight it. They had to reach out for help. And these mercenary groups from Eastern Europe were happy to fill in and they were necessary. The UMP Cuban forces were leading Congolese forces, couldn't fight them. So they were needed. And like when they said they held back on going Sudan, Central African Republic and the Sahel countries have with sending over field control to Wagner because he didn't want to lose that US relationship. But then Rwandan M23 got stronger and about six weeks ago from now they took North Kiva.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is a part of the Congo.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Yeah. So this is the kind of most war torn part of the DRC where M23 have been operating for decades. But just in like the last year of offensive, they've now managed to take most of that province. And that province now has access to a lot of the world's cobalt gold, also 10 various other minerals. And now they don't need to sneak over the border for ferries and on the river. Now they can actually use the capital city of the region, Goma, and they can bring it right over the land border into Rwanda. Now what this is really reminiscent of, and it's fascinating that no one's talking about it, is it's essentially exactly what happened with Russia and Ukraine in 2014 when Russia denied they were actually invading Ukraine, the eastern part, exactly what Rwanda said and that kind of lies continued. But everyone knows that it's really them and sometimes they do accept responsibility. Now they've taken most of that problem, so they've actually frightened to take much, much more of the country as well. And since then, things have gotten incredibly more complicated. So actually the Rwandans ended up rounding up all of these Eastern European mercenaries. And there's some fascinating photos of these Romanians getting handcuffed and then sent over the border to Rwanda where they were sent back. And now the DRC government, instead of reaching out to mercenary groups like the smaller ones that we're discussing, they're directly reaching out to Trump and they're directly saying to Trump, please come in, we will give you a deal like you want in Ukraine. We'll give you 50% of our minerals, which are worth about $27 trillion, if you can offer security guarantees for the combo. And then since then, Donald Trump seems to be in consideration with it. Erik Prince has met with the President of the Congo. It's likely that Trump won't want to put his own troops on the ground, but could offer private military contractors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

And Starlink Elon Musk have already been in the DRC to discuss potential expansion there. At the same time, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos backed New AI company has already started to make arrangements in one part of the DRC to divvy up control of mines between them and the Chinese. So you essentially have this new great game colonialism of Africa. But the actual the Chinese and The Americans are quietly collaborating and just billions will be extracted from the drc.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's what I was going to say. I'm not a very like everything goes back to colonialism kind of guy, but this is almost new colonialism, where, oh yeah, you've got a Rwandan backed invasion that's funded by the uk. Whether the UK meant to do that or not. Sounds like they did. And then the US may be hiring Blackwater or whatever it's called, Academy, whatever. Zay, I don't know what the name is. This week, Erik Prince's fsg. Private military contractors to go into the Congo to protect these mines alongside the Chinese who are going to then exploit the crap out of these resources in exchange for maybe pushing back the. Not Russians or sometimes Russians, but sometimes French Foreign Legion, but sometimes whatever private military contractor is floating around in there. So it's almost like a proxy colonialist war in the making to get these elements so that we can make AI chips, basically.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

It really, really is. And the scariest thing about it is it's not geopolitical, it's company driven. It's almost like we were talking about earlier with criminal groups dividing up countries and taking the resources. This is essentially that. But with billion dollar companies like Erik Prince. Actually since he left Blackwater has worked directly with the Chinese government and private military contracting groups. Various ones. He's still a very, very close ally of Trump. And what he's done is he has facilitated the safe movement of Chinese mining companies throughout Africa. Now you have a situation where it might be Erie Prince is organizing security for the Congo in partnership possibly with Chinese companies, where Elon Musk, who absolutely desperately needs the supplies inside the drc.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Elon Musk, who was also named directly like a spokesperson for the Congolese government when they basically sent a begging letter to the US saying, Please just help us push Lydia23 out. We will at this point hand over access to our minds if you will do that and help protect them. They mentioned Tesla by name as one of the companies that would benefit from this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure. Because it's a massive US company. Yeah, I'm sure when they wrote to the Chinese, they probably mentioned BYD and other Chinese companies. Wow.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Exactly. But I guess what I mean is that there's no pretense anymore that it's not just a commercial interaction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, I see. Yeah, there's no like, free our people. It's, hey, do you want some of these minerals? Fight these other guys who want our minerals. Oh, yeah, there's people there too. But whatever.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Erik Prince, historically, FSG and FRG is slightly different. FSG was like Frontis group, which apparently he officially stepped down from a few years ago that was majority owned by the Chinese government. So he was basically working for the Chinese government for many years. And he has advocated at various times and got in trouble for it, for the US to collaborate with Wagner in Africa as a mercenary force, basically to allow him to collaborate with Russian forces. He has a lot of connections with Russian forces. Musk, meanwhile, obviously has a lot of connections with China, especially when it comes to production. And so what this looks like to us is that you have three empires that are obsessed with expanding their size of their empires. Russia is literally trying to expand its territory. China's obsessed with expanding. The US has now started saying things like they're going to invade Greenland and whatever. They're actually literally talking about expanding whether or not they're going to do it. And you have these three neocolonial empires basically saying, how do we carve up Africa between us? It's like 1850 all over again. It's like, how do we carve this up between us and figure out who owns what?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is so crazy.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

And I think we get lost in so much of the bluster and there's so much happening domestically in the US that I understand why people can jump into the Congo and see it as really important. But I think nowhere else represents the real dangers of what's actually happening. Whatever your politics are like taking away of the US and just there is a very strong group of billionaires with different companies. They're not even making efforts to step back from anymore. Even if they're involved the government and they are stripping apart the minerals of the drc. Like, this is like Leopold East India Trading Company. It's indistinguishable from colonialism. And I like you, I don't bring everything back to that. But this one is really hard to. The difference here is they're not talking about something that they want in the headlines. We're not talking about. We are pushing back the Russians are pushing back the Chinese. Talking about quiet deals being made by billionaires who are in the government rather than a State Department who's trying to play a bigger game of security. Actually, this is such a direct threat to the security and because it is handing billions to already very powerful people, but actually divvying up these places really quietly. And like when you've also got Bill Gates and Bezos just coming out of nowhere facilitating deals for the Chinese, Australians, the Congolese can divvy up one province between them. That is OG colonialism.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is absolutely just corporate oligarchy level colonialism. It's crazy. We are now no better or soon to be no better than Wagner in Africa just killing people, taking over gold mines and shipping the gold back to Russia for sale to fund the war in Ukraine. I mean, this is like the same thing. And I'm not a conspiracy guy or one of these sort of, oh my gosh. The next step is this crazy World War Three. But what's almost certainly going to happen is some sort of conflict with China. And that conflict is going to involve a lot of AI and drone warfare. And those types of things are going to require the resources in these areas. So we're going to have to then pay these same companies and people trillions, whatever of dollars over a certain period of time to fight each other, not only for those resources, but so that the nation states themselves that these people are from can control more of them. So it's literally like a chess piece, or at least one of the board of chess being played that will lead up to whatever conflict we have with China. It's so wild to think about that this oligarch game is going to essentially be a part of World War Three if it happens.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

It's almost like the shortsightedness of it all from the US because whenever this term ends, possibly in three years, possibly not, whatever happens in the world, like Musk, few other guys, Erik Prince, they're walking away with these enormous contracts. Those contracts don't go anywhere, right? But the US is in a state where it is not planned. It's not planned as security, it's not planned for its economy. Whereas China is making plans for decades and decades and so is Russia. And we're seeing this new kind of game across the world. It's not just in Congo, a lesser extent in Myanmar, where Chinese and Russians are cooperating and the US is starting to become weirdly interested there as well, but not to compete against them. And also in Ukraine, I mean, we were there last year and we never quite imagined this would be what we'd be talking about. But this divvying up of resources between the Russians and the Americans, and again, you just see these billion dollar companies are making these deals and then yeah, you're right. What happens when the next regime comes in, the next American president, if they're on the other side, if they aren't gearing up for a conflict? Do they trust the Elon Musk's and the Arab princes to be loyal to the U.S. we don't have a choice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anymore because these oligarchs and these companies now control the government. And even if they don't control the guy who's in power at the time, they are going to have the contracts and they're going to have the resources. We really don't have a choice. What are we going to do? Say we decided we don't need rechargeable batteries anymore? We don't have a choice anymore.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

This is the thing as well. We mentioned before about the kind of shockwaves that a lot of like cuts to aid have had in this part of the world.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

And one of the reasons that was such a shock is for a lot of people is that they had literal contracts, they had contracts that had been signed to say certain development projects would happen to have set that people would be employed for a certain amount of time. The fact that the US government could just tear up a contract and say actually we decided not to honor it was a real shock to a lot of people. And it's made a lot of countries rethink whether or not they could work with the American government. Because if you can just have someone new come in in four years and tear up a contract, you can't work with them. Russia and China, I mean Russia's its own thing, but like China might give you a really bad deal. China might tell you that you have to pay back a loan with insanely high rates or you lose your port or you lose like your railways or whatever, but you still know what the terms and conditions are when you do it. So at least they are consistent. And this is what's scary about this situation is that Russia and China have been doing this a long time. They are autocratic states that are in control and they have a long term plan. So they are not going to change in any fundamental way in the next 10, 20 years. The US might be a different country in a few years. No one knows. So the people who are making these agreements are probably going to be more likely to make them with oligarchs who are going to consistently be selfish in 10 years time and have the same goals because they are at least consistent, right? So that's not good for anyone because you can't rein them back in. So it's not like the US is becoming stronger, it's like a handful of oligarchs in the US are going to become stronger and that will end up superseding any form of democracy in the US like it's like you're basically just putting them in the same club as a bunch of autocrats. This all sounds insane to say, but.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is what's happening a little bit, but it's actually what's happening. Yeah, I was just going to say something like it does sound like we're nuts. And if you're new to the show, you're like, oh, God, this Jordan guy, he's off the deep end, man. I thought this guy was reasonable. Look at all this crap that he's letting these people sprout on the show. But you're right, it's like this is actually what is happening now. This is not weird speculation. This is the current status.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

I think that it's very irritating that the only way that possibly we're going to get more attention for what's happening in the Congo is by bringing it back to the colonial powers that are devastating it. And that's always been the way. Right. Like, for centuries this place has been absolutely decimated and it should be one of the richest countries in the world. The amazing work again, starfcar has done on, on our phones and on our cars. Unfortunately, we've not made an impact. We've not made a change on what we do for the likes of Congolese children that are forced into the most horrific conditions. So again, the number one thing here is that conflict is tearing these people apart for our interest in the West. But the thing that might make people care and just look a little bit beyond the domestic politics of the US like, just get out of that bubble of Trump signed a new MAD executive order or he renamed something, and we're going to debate that and then we're going to bring it back to some culture war thing that we're all tied up in, look a little bit beyond it and actually realize that there is nothing right now that suggests the Trump administration is interested in the security, stability and long term economic progress of the United States. And in fact, everything points to being a clear kleptocracy. It points more to Russia than to any vision or idea of what United States is apparently supposed to be. And that's like the real warning here is we're handing it to billionaire kleptocrats who have no interest in the security and stability of the United States. And we can say whether that's in the Congo or whether that's not sanctioning groups in Cambodia because you want to set up Starlink and have their own geopolitical balance with China or just make money for Elon Musk. The issue is that oligarchs are running the most powerful country and the most powerful military in the world. And we're missing that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is. A lot of people share that view. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. This is fascinating. Definitely took like several left turns from what we had originally planned talking about, but I always find that super interesting. And I know you're doing this live. People are probably like, where the hell is this from? Lindsay's in a dark cage somewhere and you're adjacent to a trafficking hub at a 24 hour bar that's open at whatever hour it is now with seemingly a shitload of traffic and customers.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Half past 1am it's busy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if you ever want to go to a place where your insomnia is not a problem, Phnom Penh seems like the place to go because you just walk outside at 3am and everything is open.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

You can always get a fried rice any time of night or day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, jet lag, doesn't matter. Just work from 11:00pm or whatever until 5:00 in the morning. And it's no different. It's just a little bit darker outside. Thanks so much guys for doing this. I know it's a weird time.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Cheers, Jordan. Thanks man.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Thanks so much, Jordan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's a Preview with the 26th National Security Advisor, General H.R. mcMaster, on the greatest threats to the United States war is this continuous interaction of opposites.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

Right.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

You and maybe multiple enemies and adversaries.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Inside of a complex environment. You have to understand strategic empathy to try to view these complex competitions from.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

The perspective of the other.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Do you think our divisions domestically right now are one of the greatest threats to our national security?

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Absolutely, Jordan, they are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And our adversaries are doing everything they can to exploit them.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

I mean, Russia is masterful at this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When we were attacked on 9 11, you know, Al Qaeda didn't target Democrats or Republicans. Right, Right.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

They targeted Americans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it's time to really demand real reforms.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

You know, and if teachers unions are an obstacle, we've got to tell them, hey, you can't strike reform anymore and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We need to demand it.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

The fact that we're driven apart from.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Each other based on these divisions in.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Our society, what social media is doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To us by driving us apart with.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

These algorithms to show you just more.

[Lindsey Kennedy]

And more extreme information based on your pre elections, the fact that, you know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you're of one political persuasion, you.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

Watch one TV network and so somebody of a different political persuasion watches a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Different one, you're creating two different realities.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

We're doing this to ourselves, Troy. We got to stop, you know, we got to stop it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So let's think about it. Let's work together to make our republic better every day.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

And there are some who don't want to do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They think that, hey, you can't even empathize.

[Nathan Paul Southern]

You're not even allowed to empathize.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a real tragedy. For more, including General H.R. mcMaster's thoughts on immigration and climate change, check out episode 410 on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All things Nathan and Lindsey will be in the show [e-mail] Thanks to Nathan and Lindsey for coming back on the show, especially at this weird hour from a bar near a scam call center. It's actually kind of dangerous for them to do this stuff because the Internet that they need is in a public ish place and they're talking about criminals who literally live and work right next to them. So it's a little bit dodgy sometimes for them to even show up and do these shows. So props to them for doing this for us. All things Nathan and Lindsay will be in the show [e-mail], advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show [e-mail] deals Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also our newsletter Wee bit wiser. The idea behind it is to give you something specific, practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes every Wednesday. Every ish Wednesday. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. Over at sixminutenetworking.com I'm ordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's interested in scam call centers, organized crime, mineral trafficking, African conflicts, I know that's quite a quite a bit there. We did go through a lot today. Definitely share this episode with him in the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.