← The Jordan Harbinger Show
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- [00:00]
Jordan Harbinger
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
- [00:18]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [00:28]
Pam Dukes
See full terms@mintmobile.com craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance and far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen best sellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wonderyus that's audible.com wonderyus.
- [01:22]
Jordan Harbinger
Welcome to feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer my Dews catcher in arms, Gabriel.
- [01:30]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Mizrahi Dues Hits Person Person writes inbox Inbox Goes to show we catch Dews. We're Dueze catchers. It's just who we are.
- [01:38]
Jordan Harbinger
And if the deuce comes back within 24 hours, we have to catch it again for free.
- [01:41]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Those are the rules. This is company policy.
- [01:43]
Jordan Harbinger
If you have no idea what we're talking about, which makes perfect sense actually. Go back Was it a month ago? This is a reference to the professional bird catcher who wrote in. I kept thinking about that guy's intro. Just sup guys, I'm a bird catcher, okay? That's a thing. Oh, and with a 24 hour refund.
- [01:57]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Policy, I guess guarantee still doesn't make sense to me.
- [02:01]
Jordan Harbinger
None of it makes any sense. No, I know. And that's why he was getting abused by his employer. Because it's the only game in town where you can get paid for catching birds at Costco or whatever. All right. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from war correspondents and neuroscientists, astronauts and national security advisors. This week we had the one and only Ed Helms of the Office and the Hangover fame. His was really a lot of fun. I got to do that one in person. It was just a heck of a good time. I had a shoulder injury which was really distracting me. So I'm in kind of a different mood and he is in an awesome mood. So it's a funny episode, I thought, and a fun conversation. We also had Daniel Levitin on the power of music. I mean, I'm not a music guy, but music can heal you. It can do all kinds of really. I mean, not like woo woo. This is a real science episode about how people regain memories and music does a lot of stuff that honestly seems kind of magical. So I really enjoyed this one. And if you're a huge music fan, you're gonna love this one because it's about how music is essentially healthy for you. And if you're not into the woo woo stuff, do not worry. Again, it is completely science based. This is not like sound healing for people who like bowls or whatever. We also did an out of the loop last week on the ongoing situation in Rwanda. And because this one was with journalists Nathan Paul Southern and Lindsey Kennedy, we actually did an update on scam call centers in Cambodia. You know how a lot of people are human trafficked and put in these scam call centers. We've covered that with them earlier. Turns out they live next to two of these things now, so they've got an even closer look at how these things work. Apparently there's still kind of crazy mineral washing, rare earth metal stuff going on in Rwanda. Just the world slowly falling apart and not really that slowly. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and occasionally play way too many sound bites, which I have a feeling might happen today. We'll see. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?
- [03:56]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My childhood was characterized by being smacked by my dad and being screamed at by my mom, who occasionally got in on the smacking action.
- [04:06]
Jordan Harbinger
Also, very sorry to hear that.
- [04:08]
Gabriel Mizrahi
There were lots of good times with my two brothers of similar ages. But my memories are tainted by visions of two brothers cowering as the third took wax whilst crying their eyes out. I'm surrounded by people who say things like, didn't do you any harm, but this did do me plenty of harm. I've been angry, bitter, and occasionally violent my whole life. I've been addicted to drink and drugs and sex over the years. I've trashed every relationship I've ever had. When I read that hitting kids under 5 years old is linked to sexual dysfunction later in life, that made perfect sense too. I've never been sexually normal. I have very little real confidence. I just mask to cover up. And I would say when it comes down to it, that I despise myself.
- [04:54]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow. Okay, we gotta pause here. What this guy is describing is very painful, indescribably so. My heart just breaks for this guy. I don't know exactly what his parents did, but he's painting a very vivid picture of the legacy of abuse. And this is so sad. I also just want to say, his vulnerability here, his clarity about his trauma, his patterns, his beliefs, his. It's actually pretty remarkable. It takes a lot of courage to talk about this stuff. And of course, I assume he found this out by doing a deep dive into things that are very hard for him to even think about. So kudos to him for doing all that.
- [05:29]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah. Thank you for writing in. I've been thinking about this for decades now, and I still cannot comprehend how the person a child should trust most in the world can hit them and think it's okay. This feeling became a thousand times stronger when I had my own child, who has never had a hand laid on her in anger. I look at her and I wonder how on earth I could even consider causing her physical pain. I'm so sick of hearing people say, it was a different time then and other meaningless excuses.
- [05:56]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I totally agree. It was a different time back then. You couldn't get arrested for this. The fact that you haven't continued this cycle with your own child, which so many people do, that's also remarkable. And you sound like a solid human being then.
- [06:09]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Recently, my dad shared a screenshot in my family group chat of a news report about whether hitting was okay and wrote, I've never smacked my kids. I was dumbfounded. I asked for clarification and he confirmed he couldn't remember ever smacking any of them. I could still hear his booming voice all those years ago, screaming, move your hands. As my siblings and I tried to protect ourselves from the blows. Then we would limp off crying and be consoled by the others.
- [06:35]
Jordan Harbinger
My God, this is awful.
- [06:37]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I had tears of rage in my eyes as I realized that this fact was so unimportant to him, he doesn't even remember it.
- [06:44]
Jordan Harbinger
Uh, I strongly suspect that on some level your dad knows what he did and this is sort of him reinforcing in himself. Uh, yeah, I never did this. Right, guys?
- [06:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
That's just too distressing for him to live with.
- [06:55]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. So he somehow repressed these memories or is coming up with a story to cover them up or whatever.
- [07:00]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It's not that he doesn't remember. It might be that he remembers too.
- [07:03]
Jordan Harbinger
Well, that's my strong hunch, because how do you forget that you regularly beat all three of your sons and took other crap going on in your life out on them? Unless he's got dementia or something. Even then, I would still wonder.
- [07:16]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Now I have a dilemma. I feel I can't have my dad leave this world thinking he never laid a hand on his children and being proud of that. I want to write him a letter outlining what I felt as a child and what it's done to me since. Every emotion, the fear and the damage that followed. But my dad has a million pound business, zero debt, lots of land, and even in retirement has a few hundred grand a year rolling in. In an ideal world, I would tell him I don't want a penny from him, but unfortunately I am one of life's talent voids, free of any useful skill or trade. I work hard and always have, but I'll never be anything but a head above water type. This would mean the difference between us buying our very own home one day and never having a home of our own. We've moved nine times in the last four years due to the UK housing crisis. My daughter deserves so much more than a loser for her dad. She has one hope of ever being left anything by her mom and me, and that's my dad. A home could be hers when we're gone. My dad has threatened to write people out of his will before for far less than what I want to do. He takes any criticism of his parenting very badly, like he goes nuclear. Should I pull the pin on this grenade, say what I want to say, and almost guarantee that my inheritance gets split between my siblings and then I die in poverty? Or should I keep my mouth shut and let my father swim in the undeserved glory of being the gentlest, kindest parent in history? Signed, write this unfettered letter standing up to my begetter. Or better, to let the past settle so I don't end up a debtor.
- [08:56]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow, what a story. And what a tough question this is. Like I said, I'm so sorry you had this childhood, man. And that you're still struggling with your relationship with your father. It's truly extraordinary stuff. I can obviously hear the legacy of the trauma in your letter. The fact that you've turned out this well is a miracle. It says a lot about you. I know you say you've trashed every relationship and stuff like that, but look, you have kids. You love them. There's victory in that, buddy. So you're torn between authenticity and practicality, between speaking your truth and money, which is something all people have to deal with in various ways in their lives. I mean, this tension exists every time you want to give your boss a piece of your mind or pop off online about your true opinions or whatever. But it's especially stark in your case because the stakes are high. Gabriel, have you ever seen that show Extras with Ricky Gervais?
- [09:41]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, of course.
- [09:41]
Jordan Harbinger
So there's an episode where he's making a show or something and he wants to speak his mind because he doesn't like the way it's going. And there's this old washed up actor or creator or whatever also there, and the guy's encouraging him to, like, speak your artistic truth and say what's on your mind. And then as he looks back to the guy for courage, when he's about to speak up to the director or whatever it is, a bunch of the craft services, like the catering that they do on a film shoot, a bunch of the skittles and stuff fall out of this guy's pockets because he has just nothing and he's stealing food from craft services. And so as they bounce on the ground, Ricky's. You know what? Nevermind. I'm fine with where it's going.
- [10:18]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, exactly. That show was genius.
- [10:21]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it was genius.
- [10:22]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So good.
- [10:23]
Jordan Harbinger
It really was.
- [10:24]
Gabriel Mizrahi
That really captures it. The little skittles bouncing on the floor really captures the stage where the guy's.
- [10:28]
Jordan Harbinger
Like, standing in the corner like, go, man, go do the thing I never had the courage to do and a bunch of skittles fell out of his pocket. I gotta say, I'm sad that your father has threatened to write people out of his will for far less than confronting him with the fact that he abused his kids. He clearly can't have open, honest conversations with people. That might be difficult for him. But that also fits with a parent who has this narrative that he never hurt his children when he was apparently kind of a monster. Just reading between the lines here, I think we're hearing about a man who's highly Defended. Obviously, he's vindictive, which means he's actually quite vulnerable and scared underneath a guy who hurt his children because he must have been in a ton of pain himself. He can't even begin to acknowledge that pain now. This is a really tough father to have, even if the money were not part of the equation. And I'm just sorry that you're in this position. I don't know, man. It's a tough one, Gabe. There's a part of me going, like, hell, yeah, speak your truth. Call out your dad. Make him confront this awful stuff he did. Stop playing along with the lie. Have some integrity.
- [11:26]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You're the old guy in the meeting telling teacher Vaes to stand up. That's right.
- [11:29]
Jordan Harbinger
But then there's another part of me going, he's not going to take that in. He's not going to change. What's done is done. You need to make peace with these feelings so you can enjoy this inheritance.
- [11:37]
Gabriel Mizrahi
As the emotional skittles rattle across the floor.
- [11:39]
Jordan Harbinger
That's right. I do have an early Dark Jordan pitch that. I wasn't going to say anything, but this is probably the wrong time, but I don't care. Convince your siblings to do it. That way, when they're cut out of the will, you get more money. And he's confronted, problem solved.
- [11:54]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Some of your finest work.
- [11:56]
Jordan Harbinger
I mean, it's not a terrible idea. You do get everything. And look, you don't even have to feel that bad because then you can give that sibling some of your money.
- [12:04]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But not as much.
- [12:07]
Jordan Harbinger
You can give him some of the stuff. You don't have to give him a fair share.
- [12:10]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You come out looking like the hero.
- [12:11]
Jordan Harbinger
That's right.
- [12:12]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You win in so many ways.
- [12:13]
Jordan Harbinger
Correct. Anyway, no. All jokes aside, not convincing your siblings to do it, but not confronting your dad, it's not a selfish, callous move on your part. You have a daughter to think about. And the inheritance, given the kind of person his father is, it might actually be the best thing, the only thing that his dad can give him that's positive at this point. Really? Maybe. I'm trying to rationalize this, but if he protects his inheritance, he might actually be protecting the only gift that his otherwise very flawed father can offer him. And maybe that's also a way to appreciate the one thing that his dad did right, which is making a bunch of money over his lifetime. I'm sure that he would trade it all for a loving childhood, but in this timeline where he did not have a loving childhood, the assets are something that will change him and his daughter's life. So maybe in a weird way, he can think of them like emotional reparations. It's one thing he can thank his father for.
- [13:05]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I hear that this money is obviously very fraught for him. It represents his father's hard work and planning. Yes, maybe these emotional reparations you're talking about, but it also represents the cost of not listening to his inner voice. Oh, man. I'm with you, Jordan. It is hard to know what to do here because even if setting the record straight with his dad is the quote, unquote, right thing to do, and it's an interesting question how you define right in a situation like this, even if that's the morally correct thing to do, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to lead to meaningful change, either on his dad's part or for himself. I think it's highly unlikely that it's going to make his dad suddenly wake up and go, oh, my God, I was telling myself a story. I did do all these awful things. I'm so sorry I didn't own up to it. Like, how can I make this right? I don't know.
- [13:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it's never going to happen.
- [13:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It might be satisfying and it might be enlivening for our friend here to give his father a piece of his mind. I get that it's really hard to feel inauthentic, but also, he doesn't know what this conversation would do for him. He might say these things to his father and find that a huge weight has been lifted, some anger has been discharged. That can be very powerful. He might also say these things and find that he is still left with a lot of difficult feelings and wounds. And who knows, they might even feel worse if his dad doesn't respond the way he hopes.
- [14:21]
Jordan Harbinger
Exactly. Plus, man, in that scenario where it doesn't really help, he might be written out of the will, and then he really just has nothing. No resolution and no stability.
- [14:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So I don't know the answer, to be honest.
- [14:34]
Jordan Harbinger
Honestly, Gabe, I know we're treading lightly here and there are some good reasons to speak up, but my gut is telling me, don't bring this to your dad. Keep the money. Because you're almost certainly not going to get the response you're hoping for. Gabe, I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which he's, dad, I just want to tell you, you did a lot of bad stuff. And his dad's going to be like you, little C. Because that's how British people talk, apparently, when they're angry and.
- [14:56]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Flawless accent, by the way.
- [14:57]
Jordan Harbinger
He's going to. Yeah, he's going to write him out of the will and he's just going to be pissed off or he's going to write everybody out. Who knows? It's just. He's not going to go. You know what, son? You're absolutely right. I'm so sorry, Kry sesh. Because if he was going to do that, he would keep you in the will.
- [15:12]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I think we need to talk about another part of his story and maybe that'll help answer the question too. In his letter he called himself one of life's talent voids, free of any useful skill or trade. He said that he works hard, always has, but he'll never be anything but a head above water type. And then later he said that his daughter. And this really broke my heart. He said his daughter deserves so much more than a loser for a dad.
- [15:33]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, that made me really sad. That was hard to hear.
- [15:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It's very sad and it sounds like he's struggled a decent amount in his life. He said that they've moved a bunch because of the housing crisis. He's dealing with a lot of this internal stuff, the confidence stuff. All of this is. It's traumatizing to not feel like you can consistently keep a roof over your head. You can't always provide for your children the way you want. The thing is, these beliefs he holds about himself and maybe some of them are true for him to some degree. Maybe he doesn't at this moment have a ton of useful skills, maybe he isn't always the most ambitious. But the belief that he's void of any talent, that he can't develop new skills, or that he's always going to be a certain kind of person, that he's always going to disappoint his daughter, whatever these feelings are, all of those thoughts must be informed by what his father did to him.
- [16:20]
Jordan Harbinger
All of that sounds like a reflection of that lack of confidence that he mentioned and that self loathing, which again just breaks my heart.
- [16:27]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Right. So for his own sake and for his daughter's sake, I would love for him to find a way to work through all of this. Of course, because these difficult feelings he has, his addiction, addiction, his pattern of damaging relationships, the sexual dysfunctionall of that is a lot to deal with, but it is not by any means fixed. He can work on this stuff with the right resources. But as it relates to this dilemma with his father specifically, these self concepts are actually extremely relevant. My sense is that because he has such A low opinion of himself. He doesn't feel he can provide for his family the way he wants. Not now, or maybe not ever. Which means that his father and the inheritance really are his only hope. Which makes the stakes of that relationship even higher, which makes this dilemma about whether to say something very intense.
- [17:13]
Jordan Harbinger
Does he bite the only hand that can feed him?
- [17:16]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Exactly. I also wonder if this conversation he wants to have with his dad, if maybe that feels like his only hope for healing as well. I can't fix any of this trauma on my own. This is just how it is. But if I just give my dad a piece of my mind, that'll fix all of this, that'll make me less angry, less bitter, more confident, more authentic, because I'll finally be righting this wrong. Now, as we've been saying, that might, in some world, be true. Owning your story, telling someone how you feel, yes, like we keep saying, undeniably powerful. But I strongly suspect that it will only be true up to a certain point, because even in a world where his father did respond really well to this confrontation, it will only be one aspect of his healing. The real work is in sorting through all of these feelings on his own and mourning the childhood he had and taking back his power and hopefully creating a new narrative for himself. So here, too, I wonder if he might be pinning a lot of his hopes on the conversation with his dad. And maybe that's why it feels so urgent. And maybe that's why he's willing to risk literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to have this conversation. But if he saw that he could make progress in other ways on his own, with other people. It's just a question. Would he still feel as compelled to have this conversation with his dad? And if he decided not to, would he still feel as inauthentic and hopeless?
- [18:33]
Jordan Harbinger
That's a good point. Because right now, confronting dad seems like his only real option for healing, just like not confronting dad seems like his only real option for making sure he and his family are financially secure. So his choice here is very binary. And I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong about either of those. Both might be true to some extent. But what you're getting at, Gabe, is what is he investing in these options? Why do they mean what they mean to him? Because that is at least somewhat under his control. That makes sense. He gets to decide what significance these decisions have for him, at least emotionally.
- [19:06]
Gabriel Mizrahi
The irony is, either way, he's giving his father a lot of power here.
- [19:10]
Jordan Harbinger
That is right. Yeah, that's ironic. He's either giving him the power to rescue him from financial insecurity and relief from being a quote unquote loser talent void, which is such a hard thing to say about yourself, dude, you should probably stop talking like that. Or he's giving him the power to resolve his anger and his sadness about the abuse, which kind of like, neither does he have the power to do that. Gabe, what do you think?
- [19:30]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Again, I want to be fair. His father does have that power to some degree, especially when it comes to the money. It's not that the money isn't real, or it's only useful to the extent that our friend here believes it's useful. I don't think that's what we're saying. There is a lot on the line here, objectively speaking. But the belief that the money will relieve him of certain feelings or responsibilities. For example, the responsibility to address what he sees as his lack of ambition and confidence, or this fear he has of being unstable or unfulfilled, that is an assumption I would really investigate because that part he does have more control over. That's something I would love for him to work on his own before he outsources all of that to his father.
- [20:08]
Jordan Harbinger
This theme of power is really important here. His father had all the power growing up physically, emotionally, all the ways and the abuse he went through that disempowered him greatly in adulthood. And I think we're hearing that. Yeah, it's fascinating. What he probably really wants deep down is to reclaim his agency in so many ways. By approaching this dilemma in such a binary way, he's undermining that power.
- [20:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yes. Or another way to put it is he's kind of sidestepping a lot of great territory around this decision that could put him in touch with his power.
- [20:40]
Jordan Harbinger
Which could begin by putting this conversation with his dad on hold for a moment and doing a little bit of work closer to home, and then seeing.
- [20:45]
Gabriel Mizrahi
What the conversation brings up for him.
- [20:47]
Jordan Harbinger
My strong hunch is that if he processed more of this pain and stepped into a new relationship with his past, with himself, with his career, with everything really, that itself might be the healing that he's looking for. And that would automatically change the equation when it comes to his dad. I can't tell you how you're going to feel or what you're going to need, you know best. You're going to have to find out for yourself. But I do know that the stakes of this decision about your dad, they're just going to feel very different. When you feel different, both options are legitimate. Both options are going to get you different things, although I would really take a moment to think through what they're going to get you and what your expectations are, which outcomes are more important to you. But whatever you decide, know that this conversation will never be a substitute for doing this important work yourself. And I'm really sorry that you've been through all this, but it's very tragic, very intense. But I also know that this difficult childhood has brought you to this moment. You're kind of on the brink of discovering some really profound stuff yourself and potentially charting a new course. So I would lean into that and I know you'll make the right call, sending you and your daughter a big hug and wishing you all the best. And if you end up getting cut out of the will, then you'll definitely need the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by no Story Lost. Ever thought of turning your parents or loved ones incredible stories into a stunning coffee table book? Meet no Story Lost. This is not a run of the mill DIY project. We tried it out for my mom and I have to say I am blown away. And I don't say that about many things. This is like the Rolls Royce of a personal storybook creation. No need to nag your folks to jot down their memories. No Story Lost lays out the red carpet. They handle interviewing them with a professional writer. They write really well, they edit it really well, they organize family photos and they bind everything into a gorgeous hardcover book. They don't just like sort of print it off. It's customized with your color scheme of choice. Watching my mom pore over her life story, her eyes wide, big smile on her face, reliving all those precious moments, she actually said, I'm excited to read this. Who knew I was so interesting? I mean, really, this is priceless. She even joked that she likes herself even more now that she's read it. And I really just she meant it. It was amazing. And the best part is no Story Lost can create a book in just three months. This is not a heavy lift, especially for your loved one. They're so confident you'll adore it that they back it up with a solid guarantee that you fall in love with the book or they make it right or give you your money back. How was that for top notch service?
- [23:16]
Pam Dukes
Go to nostorylost.com and use code JORDAN for two extra copies of your book and a free upgrade to video interviews. A $350 value. That's Nostorylost.com Code Jordan this episode is.
- [23:27]
Jordan Harbinger
Also sponsored by Aura Frames. We all know the number one thing your mom wants is for you to call her. And yeah, you should call her. But this Mother's Day, step it up a little bit with a perfect gift. Before my parents moved to live across the street from us, they were out in Michigan and we got them an Aura frame. It's the perfect gift. You snap a pic, you hit send and it pops up on their frame. It's like a screen in the kitchen or wherever. No dealing with how do I download this? You don't get the text or the call for that. It made them feel like they were still part of our day to day lives. So no wonder Wirecutter called it the best digital photo frame and it landed on almost 500 gift guides last year. Moms love this thing. Grandmas love this thing. Way better than sending another world's best mom mug that she's going to use for pension.
- [24:06]
Pam Dukes
Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Jordan Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
- [24:24]
Jordan Harbinger
Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discounts and ways to support the podcast are all searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Ok, what's next?
- [24:40]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm the head of technology for a fast growing business. Six months ago I championed a vendor partnership that I genuinely believed was the right move. I invested deeply in the relationship, pushed hard for it internally, and gave this vendor the benefit of the doubt more than once. But recently it's become clear that they misrepresented key elements of their offering, including system ownership and cost transparency. I now see that I place the business in a position where our flexibility is limited, our costs are rising, and our long term control over critical infrastructure is uncertain. The hardest part is we might still need to stay with this vendor for the next three to five years. I know this is a commercial decision that involved multiple factors, but emotionally it feels like I failed. I let my team and my company down. I feel shame and guilt and I'm worried about how I can continue leading this project and staying positive for my team and my clients for the next few years without affecting my mental health. I'm normally proud of my work, but for the first time in my 30 year career, I dread project meetings and even coming into work knowing that I have to deal with these people who strategically misdirected and ruined any trust I had in them. The CEO and the board are super supportive, and we've retrospectively analyzed all the business decisions that led to this and devised methods to prevent it from happening again. I love my job, I believe in the company, and I want to be the kind of leader who owns mistakes and grows from them. But when I look to the future, my stomach is tied in knots having to recover from this mistake. How do I move forward from this? How can I stay engaged and effective when every day might remind me of where I got it wrong? Signed, keeping my head high and vying not to be mortified as this mistake multiplies.
- [26:32]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Wow, this is a tough situation. First of all, I'm really sorry this vendor screwed you. It sounds like a mistake any number of smart people could make. And maybe, sure, you overlooked some things, but it really does sound like these partners deliberately misrepresented themselves and now you're essentially left to pick up the pieces. But I've been there. And yeah, it hurts. All the thoughts and the feelings that you describe, they make perfect sense. But let's start by acknowledging a few bright spots in all this. You sound like a good leader, thoughtful, conscientious, responsible. You're also clearly invested in the mission of your company and well regarded by your colleagues. And I can see why you strike me as a solid person. Also, this partnership has already gone wrong. You didn't get fired, you didn't even get punished. That's a really good sign. And the CEO and the board are being super supportive. That is a great sign as well. If they didn't have your back or this mistake were truly as severe as maybe you feel it is, they probably would have sacked you immediately or at least put you on hard notice. And the fact that they're going, okay, this happened, let's figure out how we got here. Let's make sure it never happens again. Not only is that a very encouraging signal, it's also a very positive way to manage a company. So I gotta say, I really like what I'm hearing about your team and your company. So the first thing you gotta do here, and you're already doing this, is. But it might be an ongoing process. You got to fully accept this mistake, and you have to forgive yourself accepting it. Fully means not indulging that part of your brain that wants to go, oh, but if I only did this, or, well, if I could have just done this, then that wouldn't have been so bad. What's done is done, man. If there are ways out of this partnership or ways to mitigate the downsides, hey, great, pursue those. But if any part of you is still resisting reality here, you got to make peace with it inside of yourself. And at the same time, you have to make peace with the fact that you were capable of making a decision that didn't turn out well. Obviously, this is how we learn. We can't be perfect. If someone as responsible as you can make this mistake, and if the company is confirming that you made good decisions leading up to this, that there was no massive oversight or reckless failure on your part, then anyone could have made this mistake. And by the way, that's compatible with doing the forensics and figuring out what happened and how to avoid this in the future as well. The second thing you need to do is fully acknowledge and own this mistake with your team. And again, you're probably already doing this, but I can't tell from your letter just how transparent you're being with your CEO, your other bosses, your peers about what you're struggling with right now. I wouldn't blame you for wanting to put on a brave face, cover your tracks, not draw any more attention than necessary to the fact that you had a hand in this decision. But those are precisely the conditions for guilt and shame to grow. Especially shame. And I wonder what would happen if you went to your CEO or your direct boss or your peers, whoever's involved in this, and just said, hey, guys, this whole vendor debacle is really doing a number on me. I feel I did everything right leading up to the decision, but it turned out poorly. And I feel that just ultimately reflects on me. I'm taking ownership of that fully, and I'm committed to making sure this never happens again. But I gotta tell you, I feel like I failed here. I'm feeling guilty. I'm embarrassed by how it's played out, how you guys might be viewing me right now. And I'm a little worried about how I can continue leading this project and stay positive knowing that we're stuck with these people for three to five years. And I just. I want to share that with you because this is where I am right now, and I could use your help in dealing with this, learning from it, showing up as the best possible colleague right now. Look, not every person wants to Be that vulnerable at work. It depends on your personality, your relationships at this place, the culture, your company. If you worked in a super cutthroat environment or if your bosses did not have your back the way that it sounds like they do, I probably would not tell you to do this. I'd probably say, hey, find your own ways of working through the guilt and shame. Show no weakness. Focus on solutions. No mercy. What is it? Strike first. Cobra Kai. Right. But because you have their support and this wasn't an epic level screw up, I think a script like that, it might just be the beginning of a really great conversation with your team. And I have a feeling that it'll also be a massive relief for you.
- [30:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I love that, Jordan. That combination of vulnerability and accountability is very powerful. Not a lot of leaders have the courage to do that.
- [30:45]
Jordan Harbinger
Exactly. Part of me wonders if really owning this mistake might even help his reputation. It's funny how that works sometimes, right? I guess that's that Jocko Willink extreme ownership principle.
- [30:54]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But whether you end up having this conversation or not, I would also keep an eye on the pieces of this that are yours to work on and nobody else's. Look, you might be the kind of person who does feel this outsized sense of responsibility. You might have a tendency to beat yourself up for things. Very common tendencies, by the way, for great leaders. This is kind of a superpower in a way. But it can also become a fatal flaw. In which case, again, there might be some work for you to do in figuring out why these responses come naturally for you. Get to the roots of that. Decide just how much of this you should take on, whether this guilt really does all fall on you, or whether it maybe should be distributed a little bit among your team, which it sounds like the case, and just how best to work through all of these feelings. There is a process here that is yours alone.
- [31:40]
Jordan Harbinger
Totally. And I'll also throw in there why it might be hard for him to really take in his boss's support.
- [31:45]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, good point. I do get the sense that there's something else going on here besides I picked a vendor who ended up screwing us. Your bosses are saying, hey, it's okay. We've got you and you're going, I don't know if I can keep showing up to work. Maybe it's hard to believe that your bosses really do forgive you, that they really do support you even after you made a mistake, which, again, all of you guys made. So it is an interesting question. Why is that? Is it hard to internalize the support of the people around you, perhaps that would be interesting to get to the bottom of, too.
- [32:14]
Jordan Harbinger
Agreed. And if he does that, I think this question of how do I stay engaged when every day might remind me of where I got it wrong? I think that question might go away, too, because right now, every day is a reminder of where he got it wrong. As long as he approaches his colleagues and internalizes this decision in a certain way. But if he invites them in, if he starts to view this whole thing as a learning opportunity, not just a liability, every day won't actually be a reminder of where he got it wrong. Every day might be an opportunity to get it right, which is really a growth mindset. That is the shift that I hope you make here.
- [32:46]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You know, one very tactical thing he could do to show that he's really turning a corner is if they turn this mistake with this vendor into a kind of case study internally in the company. And maybe he writes it up as a white paper, he puts together a presentation or whatever, and he's like, look, here's what we went through with this vendor. Here's what they told us. Here's what we missed. Here's the mistake I made when I was in charge of this, and here's what we've learned since. And we now have this framework for assessing vendors that is designed to make sure that we never end up in a situation like this again. And he sends it around to everybody, like, hey, look what I've learned. I want to make sure that nobody else in the company makes that same mistake. That would send a really great signal to everybody. I mean, he can't change the past at this point. To your point, Jordan, he needs to make peace with that. But what he can do is, A, find meaning in it, and B, try to be of service to everybody else. If somebody on my team did that, I would be like, this guy's a keeper. This guy's a leader. This is exactly what you're supposed to do when you make a mistake. So maybe that's an idea he could play with.
- [33:41]
Jordan Harbinger
I like that idea. So you have some great work to do here. I promise you, one day soon you'll look back on this with a very different lens. So keep showing up as your best self. Have the conversations you need to have, and I know you'll get there soon. Good luck. You can reach us@Fridayordanharbinger.com Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox? You just found out your partner doesn't want children and you do. Or you're debating whether to track down your estranged grandson after your son ruined your life by falsely accusing you of a number of heinous crimes. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up fridayordanharbinger.com we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser is a bite sized gem almost every Wednesday. It's very practical, something you can apply right away. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out and you can sign up@jordanharbinger.com news all right, what's next?
- [34:37]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Hello magnificent duo. I'm 32 years old, based in Italy and have been investing in the stock market since I was 23. My dollar cost averaging strategy has worked well over the years, helping me achieve financial stability and now allowing me to purchase my second home supported by a stable income from my 9 to 5 and my investments.
- [34:57]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow. Incredible. Hey, well done man.
- [35:00]
Gabriel Mizrahi
A few years ago, in an effort to diversify my portfolio, I allocated funds to a couple of real estate crowdfunding platforms, including a specific one whose name, by the way, we're just going to leave out. And recently I noticed that my five investments in properties on the platform have not paid out dividends for a long time. I wasn't overly concerned initially as delays and project holds had occurred before on the other platform I've used, but upon further investigation I discovered that this platform has completely ceased communication with investors before each project detailed the investment payment schedule, potential delays and exit options, and customer service was accessible via email. Now all of that has disappeared. I've tried to contact the platform through multiple channels but have received no response whatsoever. Reading online, I found that many other investors are facing the same issue, some as far back as 2022. It appears the company is now insolvent. In addition to withholding dividends, they're not refunding invested capital and several investors have reported unsuccessful withdrawal attempts even for their non invested funds. Practically speaking, the amount displayed on the accounts doesn't really exist. It is shocking. I've always considered myself a cautious and well informed investor and I take great pride in my financial journey. So I feel incredibly frustrated and dumb for not realizing all of this sooner. While the amount of my investment won't significantly impact me, I cannot accept the idea of leaving it in the hands of this company's shameful and dishonest. CEO, what are my realistic options for recovering at least part of my investment, which is around €8,000? Do you think there's any chance, however small, of retrieving part of my money? Are there any legitimate debt collection services I could use? And would there be any way to unite affected investors, given that we're spread across different countries? Signed. Thought I was astute for the pursuit of this clever route. Now I'm trying to recover my loot. Is the answer a dispute, or is this all just moot because this platform was, at its root, a total crapshoot?
- [37:06]
Jordan Harbinger
My God, that's. You're going hard in the pain today.
- [37:09]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, I figured this guy lost like 10 grand. Maybe a few extra rhymes would lift his spirits.
- [37:14]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Yeah, that's what he needs.
- [37:16]
Gabriel Mizrahi
A poem and an attorney.
- [37:17]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, seriously, we'll get into all that. So, yeah, man, this is infuriating. And I'm sorry this happened to you.
- [37:23]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Sucks.
- [37:24]
Jordan Harbinger
I know how much it hurts to get screwed by a shady company. My God, do I know. Although I guess that's also the risk you take when you invest in these sort of speculative, experimental financial companies that might go belly up or turn out to be scams from the start. Crypto funds. Need I say more? We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to Aaron Hoskins, bankruptcy attorney and friend of the show. And the first thing Aaron said was she understands that this situation is super frustrating, especially given that the company seems to still be taking investments from people, which, that is crazy. So she had a few ideas. First, this company has a financial institution license from Estonia, and the company is governed by the European Union. So Aaron said that it might be possible to submit a complaint against the company with the relevant licensing entity, maybe both in Estonia and at the EU level. The problem is, after that complaint is submitted, any action is then at the discretion of that agency. Now, if other investors also file complaints, it could lead to an investigation. And even if the money's gone, the company would likely lose its license and be subject to other consequences. Another option Aaron shared. Look into involuntary insolvency proceedings. This would probably need to happen in Estonia, and Aaron knows nothing about Estonia's insolvency laws or processes. And of course, neither do we. But here's how this works in the U.S. basically, three creditors can petition a bankruptcy court to put a debtor into an involuntary bankruptcy case. So instead of me being broke and declaring bankruptcy, which makes me want to sample the office, instead of doing that you can say, hey, this guy owes me money. And if enough people do that, then the bankruptcy court says, oh, okay, well, you got to pay these people. Oh, you can't. All right? You're bankrupt whether I agree to it or not. Whether I walk out of my office and scream at everybody else that I'm bankrupt or not. So there's a process that would allow the potential debtor to respond to the petition. But if the creditors succeed, a trustee would then be appointed to investigate and liquidate the debtor's assets. And that would include looking into any wrongdoing by the officers, the corporate debtor. So if Estonia has a similar process, and they probably do, the whole EU probably does, you could pursue that if there are other creditors willing to join you, and I assume the other investors would be if you could round some of them up. By the way, we did some very quick reading up on this. It does seem that Estonia's bankruptcy act, the Pankratis Seyadas. So, hey, Estonians. How close was I?
- [39:41]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Every Estonian listener right now is cringing.
- [39:43]
Jordan Harbinger
In their car, their ears just. Yeah. Ringing.
- [39:46]
Gabriel Mizrahi
What was it? Pankrotiss.
- [39:47]
Jordan Harbinger
Pankrotisseadus.
- [39:48]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Okay, that sounds like a Greek crouton or something.
- [39:52]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it does. Estonian language is related to, I think, Finnish, which is related to Hungarian, which is related to Basque.
- [39:59]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, I did not know this.
- [40:00]
Jordan Harbinger
And then every other language around is not related to them at all.
- [40:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It's like a melting pot of so many different European languages.
- [40:06]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I don't know enough about it, but I do know that pankrotisseadus is really hard to say, and I'm not doing it correctly. But anyway, Aaron said that this could be a relatively cost effective way to proceed because you guys would only need to pay an attorney to file the petition and adjudicate the potential debtor as insolvent. And so once that's occurred, the trustee would hire counsel to recover assets, if there are any.
- [40:28]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Pay that man his money. Now, hold up. That's John Malkovich from Rounders.
- [40:35]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. When he's like, no, he beat me. Straight up.
- [40:38]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Straight up.
- [40:40]
Jordan Harbinger
His fake Russian accent in that movie is worse than my pronunciation of Pankrotisseadus.
- [40:44]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But it's so bad, and it's also so good at the same time. That's an incredible performance.
- [40:51]
Jordan Harbinger
He's a great actor. But you gotta wonder why they weren't like, hey, take five minutes of accent training.
- [40:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah. Hire a dialect coach. Malkovich. What is the other thing he says in that movie that always makes me laugh? Oh, yeah. When Matt Damon goes all in on the pot or whatever and he's like very agriasive. The worst.
- [41:13]
Jordan Harbinger
Like any Russian that's that fluent in English will not talk like that. Maybe. I don't know.
- [41:19]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I also love. He wears like a red zip up tracksuit in the movie. Yeah, it's so good.
- [41:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Right on the nose.
- [41:24]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yes, that part's pretty perfect. Anyway, sorry, that was amazing. Just distracted by that rounders quote.
- [41:30]
Jordan Harbinger
Now this could end up with you receiving nothing. Even if you hire counsel and the trustee goes to recover the assets and the assets are all gone. Or if you do recover your money, the process could take literally years. But you might have the satisfaction of shutting this company down and having the people behind it investigated. And if they've done illegal stuff, then they could be punished for it. Potentially.
- [41:49]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Aaron's other idea for you, you and other shareholders, investors could look into bringing what's called a derivative action lawsuit or a class action lawsuit against the company. Now, a derivative action case, that's a lawsuit brought by a shareholder or sometimes a member of a company on behalf of the company, not on their own behalf. So basically, if executives have harmed the company through misconduct, a shareholder can step in and basically sue to force accountability. A class action lawsuit, as you probably know, that's when a small group of people sues on behalf of a larger group of people who all have similar problems with the same company. Know again, Erin doesn't know Estonian law, so she wasn't sure whether these options are available. We did do a little homework here too, and it looks like Estonia does have these two options, but they are more limited and they're more structured compared to how it works here in the U.S. aaron did say that it might be possible to bring a class action against this company in another country, since you live in Italy, but probably only if investors from Italy were also harmed.
- [42:48]
Jordan Harbinger
Also, my legal knowledge is rusty, but here in the States, if a derivative action lawsuit succeeds, the damages go to the company, not directly to the shareholder.
- [42:57]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, interesting.
- [42:58]
Jordan Harbinger
So that approach wouldn't necessarily or directly benefit you.
- [43:02]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And class action lawsuits, as we all know, they're usually pretty expensive. It's only worth doing if there are a substantial number of people harmed and there are definitely funds available to recover, which based on what you shared. Not holding my breath there, yeah, this.
- [43:15]
Jordan Harbinger
Might be a small platform where somebody's just absconded with the funds and is hoping people deposit more so they can abscond with those. On the flip side, if a class action is viable, then a lawyer will usually Take the case on a contingency basis, meaning they fund the costs and then they take a portion of any judgment. So that would be a way for investors to sue without having to bear the risk and the cost. Obviously, you'd need to talk to a civil litigation attorney, ideally somebody who's done consumer fraud and finance cases before.
- [43:43]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So Aaron's take is that you probably don't want to go this route. This company seems to be misusing investor funds, so even if some of the money is left, there's probably not enough to make you guys whole and therefore not enough for an attorney to be willing to take the case. Now, about the idea to go with a debt collector. Debt collectors usually buy a lot of accounts receivables from companies, usually for pennies on the dollar, and then they basically hound the people who owe to see what they can get. The debts are usually pretty old. They're harder to collect. Erin said that some law firms do debt collection work, so you could see if there's somebody who might be willing to put in some effort to get a response. But she's not sure whether a debt collector would be willing to purchase this particular obligation, given that it's just one from an individual. And there's probably not much more than that.
- [44:27]
Jordan Harbinger
Also, to your point about how shady these companies can be, Aaron said to be careful. Debt collectors. Not generally known for their ethics, as we all know, and God knows what they're like in Estonia.
- [44:37]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I'm picturing a lot of red tracksuits.
- [44:39]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm just saying. Yes, exactly. And they probably just walk up to the person that they find that owes the debt and say, pay debt. Man his money. But if you do end up working with one, Aaron's advice, Get any agreement in writing and try to make sure that the money is transferred before signing over rights. Although the agency might not agree, because this business in general leads to a lot of risk.
- [45:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So Erin was pretty direct with you. She said that unfortunately, there just aren't a whole lot of good options here. She said if you were a friend of hers and you could afford it, which it does seem like you can, she would probably encourage you to just let this investment go. Sadly, it would probably cost more to shut this company down and protect any future investors than to try and recover your piece of the money. But I would definitely look into filing those complaints and try to get as many other people who have also been bilked out of their money to do the same. You might not recover your funds, but you can still try to hold this Company accountable.
- [45:35]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. And look, it's not impossible. I invested in a crypto fund years ago. It was through reputable folks, and the fund itself got scammed. And the fund owner was like, hey, man, we have a massive loss. It looks like it's fraud. We're going to try to recover it. And I was like, kiss that money goodbye. And I've been following up for years. And just this month they were like, hey, we do actually have an update for you. We have recovered almost all of the money for everybody in this whole fraud. Very unexpected. But I think what happened was they were paying attention to their investments because that is their job. They caught the fraud, reported it, and then whatever platforms or transfer banking, whatevers were in charge of this, they basically just froze everything. And so there's something called the receiver, which can then say, you can release this money. So they're like, we have your money. And once the receiver authorizes the release of the funds, I'm just gonna get my money back now. There's no return on it. So it's been sitting there doing nothing for, I don't know how long, four years or something like that, or three. But I didn't lose my money. So, look, if the EU takes action, there's a world where they recover some funds and you might get some or all of your money back. It might take half a decade. But are you really going to put in a ton of time and energy trying to get that for the next five years? I would not do that. I'm lucky because they have to recover the money because it's their duty to their shareholders. You might just do a ton of work where you could just earn way more than the amount of money you've lost with the time you spend on this. I would not spend too much time on this. I would file these complaints, forget about it. And if you ever see a dime of it, hey, it's just gravy, you.
- [47:09]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Know, I'm just realizing that there's an interesting theme on today's episode. The guy we just heard from who hired that shady vendor and is struggling to go to work is feeling really wounded by that mistake. And I think our friend here is also feeling wounded. Like he said, he's so proud of himself, he considers himself a savvy investor, and then he goes through something like this. And I think it's in addition to the pain of losing the money, there's that sting of, am I really as smart as I thought I was? Am I really as good of an investor as I thought I was. And I think the same advice applies here, that the best thing you can do is when you take the L, try to learn from it and just apply that to everything else you do from now on. What else are you going to do? You can't change the past, you can't change this. But I just think it's really interesting sometimes when you make a mistake, you can just sit with that mistake and it's just a mistake. It just hurts over and over again. But if you do something with it, then it starts to feel a lot different.
- [47:59]
Jordan Harbinger
Totally. Because listen, this stuff happens to all investors at some point. Basically, there's a saying in investing, timing the market is less important than time in the market. So this is also a terrific lesson for you as an investor and a relatively low stakes one. You're doing all of the macro stuff, right, your dollar cost averaging. You started investing early. Don't sweat the micro stuff too much. You're not wildly gambling out there trying to regain your losses. You're doing all of the right stuff and you've hit a little speed bump at 5 mph too quickly. Not a big deal in the scheme of things. This is not going to be like now, I can't retire at age 65. That's not going to happen to you. So take the L, the very light L. Figure out what you got wrong. Learn, don't make this mistake next time and I know you'll continue to succeed. Love that you're into taking such good care of yourself as well. And good luck. One thing I learned, I did all kinds of crypto investments and funds and real estate and da da, da. And then I just was like, you know what? Screw it index funds, man. Because when you really compare all this stuff, if you are not hyper interested and you don't have a financial manager, it's just better to get rid of all of this fancy stuff and invest in index funds. By the way, this is not financial advice. This is just a little thing I've embraced in my own life. Set it and forget it. Don't spend your life thinking about how you can get a 0.1% higher return on whatever. Just don't make big mistakes, have a good credit score so your mortgage isn't super high interest. Stuff like that is going to be way better than trying to eke out an extra half percent return on a risky real estate platform that only exists online in Estonia. And I think he's learned that lesson. But for everybody else out there, there's a reason that investment advice is generally put this in A S&P 500 and then go about your day and do it again every month for the rest of your life until you retire. That's good advice because it actually works. The returns are about as good as it gets. The end. You know who doesn't need our sponsor codes? The shady bastards who stole your money. You, on the other hand, could probably use some of the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Skims. Underwear is not something most guys think about until there's a problem. But for me, I hate it when they ride up or the waistband rolls. I'll leave it there. So when I heard Skims was making underwear for men, I was definitely curious. Jen's been buying skims for a while. She's always going on, oh, this is so comfortable. So I figured, all right, if they're bringing that magic over to the men's side, I am in. And man, they delivered. I tried the Skims cotton three inch boxer briefs first. Right away. Felt like they solved a lot of the complaints I've had about underwear without overcomplicating it. Perfect weight, super soft cotton, simple, clean design. It's not flashy. I'm not a flashy underwear guy. Surprise, surprise. Nothing weird. Just solid, comfortable, everyday gear that actually fits right. Doesn't stick, you know. You know what I'm saying? It actually holds up when I'm working out, not rolling up into a nightmare situation. So if your underwear drawer is looking a little little college era, it's time. Skims Men's is absolutely worth it. Replace that old stretched out stuff or see through stuff that you've been holding onto.
- [50:58]
Pam Dukes
Shop skims men@skims.com and Skims stores. Let them know we sent you. After you place your order, select podcast in the survey and select the Jordan Harbinger show in the drop down menu that follows. Skims is the official underwear partner of the NBA, WNBA and USA Basketball.
- [51:14]
Jordan Harbinger
This episode is sponsored in part by the Defender. Picture this. You're standing at the edge of a dirt trail that disappears into the mountains. No phone signal, no traffic, no spreadsheets. No zoom meetings. Now imagine you got the keys to a Defender in your hand. This isn't your run of the mill suv. The Defender is what happens when you take decades of off road legacy and redesign it for people who don't just talk about adventure, they live it. It's got the capability to help you embrace the impossible. Engineered to meet challenges head on, whether there's a river crossing or a chaotic school drop off on a rainy Tuesday. Either way, you're rolling in a machine that was built to take the hits and keep charging forward. And get this Destination Defender is back this May 16th through the 18th in Port Jervis, New York. It's a full on festival for people who love the outdoors, who love the Defender, and who aren't afraid to get a little dirty. We're talking off road driving courses, live music, chef tastings, and the kind of vibe that makes you want to just dust off your hiking boots and write a new story. To learn more, visit destinationdefenderusa.com this episode is sponsored in part by Nomadic Mat. If you've ever thought I'd love to travel more, but I don't have the money for it. My buddy Matt Kepnes, AKA Nomadicmat, I've known him forever, wrote this super practical guide called how to Travel the world on $50 a day. I know there are a million travel books out there. This one is actually useful. Matt has been everywhere man. Inside the book. He breaks down how to save for your trip even if you're not raking it in right now. So no, you don't need a friggin trust fund or moonlight as a crypto bro to pull this off. He gets into all the ways you can score free accommodation and if you're like me, you nerd out on points and miles and all that stuff. There's a whole section on how to master travel hacking so you can basically fly for free. Plus he teaches you how to actually meet locals instead of just bouncing from tourist trap to tourist trap so you get these real experiences. And there's insider tips, stuff like where to eat, save on activities, what not to waste your money on, all the things you probably wish you knew after you got home. And so yeah, if you've been dreaming of traveling more but you thought it was out of reach, go ahead and grab a copy of his updated book nomadicmat.com how to travel the world. Grab a copy@nomadicmat.com we'll link it of course in the show notes as well. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals. If that doesn't work, always email us jordanordanharbinger.com, we're happy to dig up the codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up, hello Jordan and Gabe.
- [53:35]
Gabriel Mizrahi
My mom is 70 and lives alone. She's always been a fiercely independent person. She raised my sister and me alone from the ages of 8 and 5 respectively, and she's always lived in the same small town in rural Canada that she grew up in, like most of our family has. I now live with my husband in Florida. I don't get home as often as I used to, but I do visit one to two times a year and I get her down here about the same. After Covid, though, we do see each other a little less often, maybe once a year because it's expensive and I need to take a chunk of time off to make the expense worth it. Over the past few years, my mom has had some warning signs of possible memory loss. She's also exhibited some behavioral changes, including avoidance of getting something taken care of like her well water not working and living off of water bottles, a lack of awareness about how severe a situation is, like getting an oil spill in her basement from having backflow into her oil tank, or losing home insurance because of a forgotten payment, being oblivious like having a flight delayed and not calling or texting to let me know that she would arrive another day, just to name a few. She's also had diagnosed seasonal affective disorder for years, as well as insomnia, and she's been on many medications for them for decades.
- [54:52]
Jordan Harbinger
Man, a lot going on a lot to keep track of.
- [54:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
These weird moments or behaviors seem fleeting and vague. So up until now, my sister, who lives nearby and I have been keeping an eye out. But recently my sister called me frantic one night because my mom had miraculously been found driving her car in the wrong direction about 40 minutes away from home. She's been driving at night and left my sister's house after dropping her off, but must have taken a wrong turn or two and not looked at signs. She actually almost hit another car turning on a narrow road. She can't tell us how she ended up there and doesn't seem fazed by the fact that somebody had to drive her home.
- [55:30]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, that's alarming.
- [55:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
To be fair, these are back roads in the country with no street lights in the winter and these signs could be obscured by snowbanks. But I worry that this is the beginning of her decline and how to manage her if things change. She's not owning up to what happened. If she Even acknowledges the issue at all, which is also concerning. I don't want my mom to lose her license, which gives her freedom, but I also don't want her to hurt others while driving. Also, government assistance and programs in her rural area are hard to come by. I can't financially support her or pay for a home and she still has a mortgage to pay off. But she does have a job now I can see her bank account and she's doing well financially. But I live hundreds of miles from home and can't really watch her. And my sister has two young kids and a full time job. I also don't know if I can push for her healthcare team or psychiatrist to reevaluate her and her meds. Are there any legal ways I can keep her safe, like getting power of attorney or conservatorship? How much should I intervene here and put my foot down about certain things like driving and what are the basic measures and best practices for caring for an aging parent in decline? Signed, trying to do my best as my mother sunsets.
- [56:45]
Jordan Harbinger
Great question. This has actually been on my mind a lot lately because I'm also watching my parents get up there. And that's part of the reason they moved out to California. Now they live across the street from us. I know that's not possible for everyone, of course. So I really, I feel for you. Living so far away from a parent in another country no less, is just really challenging. And watching your parents start to slow down, especially in dramatic ways like this driving thing, that's gotta be very stressful. I'd be freaking out if they found my mom driving around in the country the wrong direction like this. The bright spot is you have your sister nearby, which is wonderful. I'm confident you guys can find some ways to make sure your mom is staying safe. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this, so we reached out to Pam Dukes, expert in senior issues and friend of the show. Pam regulated senior services in South Carolina for the majority of her career. And she was also an executive director of a nonprofit for many years that provided senior services where she often spoke with family members in the exact same situation as you. And the first thing Pam said was, this is such a familiar story to many who are helping with aging loved ones, the issues that you're raising. She felt that they were concerning. She also felt that it's important to know that it's probably only the tip of the iceberg. You only know what your mother tells you or what you and your sister observe. Okay. And Pam said That this isn't uncommon. Elderly people, they sometimes forget things that happen. Sometimes they intentionally hide things that happen because they know their loved ones are going to be like, oh, crap, this is serious. This is worrisome. And maybe they'll limit their independence. Nobody wants to say, oh, I forgot where I was going, but I drove in the wrong direction. You should take away my car keys so that I can't function. They're going, oh, that was weird. Yeah, never mind. Not going to think about that anymore. Or another common scenario. An older person loses the cognitive ability to even recognize these issues. Or they forget about them. Or they don't recognize the significance of something which sounds like is happening to your mom. Oh, don't you think it's weird somebody had to drive you home from a random place because you were going in the wrong direction on the wrong side of the road? Yeah, no, whatever. What's for lunch? You know, that's even more alarming than the initial problem, in my opinion. Pam's thought for you. It's important that your mom be assessed by a physician. A doctor can determine for sure whether she's truly declining cognitively or whether it might be due to some other medical condition. And ideally, this would be a gerontologist, but a family physician can also work. Pam said it's also really important that you or your sister have access to that doctor. The easiest way to do that, of course, is to go to her appointment with her. And if your mom pushes back on that, remind her that she sometimes forgets things and that one of you wants to be with her to pass along what the doctor says to the other. Pam also recommends going to that appointment with a list of concerning things that have happened recently. That way you can ensure the doctor has all of the information and your mom's not. Yep, nope. Nothing. Totally fine. Definitely not driving around the country by myself alone at night, forgetting that I left the stove on and the front door open. You also want to make sure that your mom allows you to access her medical information. That probably means having her sign a form at the doctor's office that says you can communicate with my daughters concerning my care. Pretty standard HIPAA stuff. Now, it's interesting that your mom has a job that's kind of amazing. Also pretty unusual. Pam said that cognitive declines are usually noticed at work. So you might want to ask her how work is going, what kind of feedback her boss is giving her, that type of thing. If she answers you honestly, that'll tell you if they're aware of what's going on. And if you happen to have a relationship with any of her colleagues, her boss, if it's appropriate, I might call them and ask how she's doing there, what they're seeing, see if there's any cause for concern. Now, assuming that your mom is declining cognitively, Pam said that there are other steps you can take to ensure her safety and well being. First, most areas, even rural areas with few services, they should offer some kind of senior services. She might be eligible for home delivered meals, if not daily, maybe weekly frozen, something like that. The people who offer this service, by the way, they often use the delivery appointment as an opportunity to check in with the senior and if something isn't right, they can contact you guys. Pam said that some providers even offer a daily or weekly call service where they just call, just check in to see how someone's doing. Many areas also operate senior centers and provide transport for socialization meals, stuff like that. Again, even in rural areas, Pam also recommends signing her up for automatic bill payments for as many services as possible. That way she doesn't have to remember to pay her bills every month. And some utilities have a feature where the company will call you if the bill goes unpaid. Or you and your sister could take over bill payments. Pam said you could actually ease her into this by telling your mom that you want her to show you what bills she has, how she goes about paying them, just so you know, in case there's an emergency one day and if she's having trouble explaining the bills to you or you do this with her a couple of times and she finally gets comfortable, at some point you just go, hey mom, why don't I just take over all this for you? You don't even have to worry about it. She might just go, oh, you know what, that sounds nice. Thanks.
- [61:35]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, I like that. All sound advice. Now, regarding the driving, Pam said that this is very concerning and yeah, clearly we strongly agree. Pam said that driving is perhaps one of the most difficult issues for aging seniors and their families to deal with because of course, giving up driving is often the beginning of a loss of independence. So she really gets it. But you obviously don't want something to happen to your mom or something to happen to somebody else because of your mom, just because nobody wants to really take this issue on. So Pam did have a few great ideas here. First of all, I had never heard of this, but several of the larger auto insurance companies apparently have these senior driver evaluation programs and apparently some healthcare systems with geriatric practices also offer a similar type of program. Now, these programs are independent, and they basically assess a person's ability to drive safely by going out with them and observing them driving. And Pam said that sometimes a senior is more likely to listen to someone from one of these organizations than their child who's going, mom, no more driving for you. Sorry, you have to give it up.
- [62:36]
Jordan Harbinger
That was a mailman, not a speed bump. Mom, hand over the keys.
- [62:39]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Exactly. Also, when you tell her physician about what's been going on, they might go, okay, absolutely, no more driving. You have to give up your driver's license. Not safe. And if so, Pam's advice is just let the doctor be the bad guy, and you and your sister enforce that decision.
- [62:54]
Jordan Harbinger
Pam actually pitched a dark Jordan idea here. I guess it's a dark Pam idea, which I did not see coming from Pam, so it really made me chuckle. But either way, sound bite worthy. So what Pam said was she knows people whose parents shouldn't be driving, but they wouldn't give up the keys. So they sabotage the the car. They punctured two tires, then the car has to be towed. They disconnect the battery, cable, stuff like that. Then the car disappears for repairs, and it just never comes back. Now, obviously, that's a lot of work for something that I hope your mom just collaborates with you on, but there's a little dark approach to tuck in your back pocket if she really fights you on this. What you don't want is your mom killing someone or hurting herself and then she loses her keys because she's in prison for something like that. That happens a lot. All you need to do is look online. There's so many videos of somebody at a gas station getting run over three by an old guy who turns into the street. It's really terrible. In fact, my dad's uncle, before he passed, my dad went over to visit him and was like, oh, my God, your car is in terrible condition. And he was just like, I don't know. And the neighbor comes out and goes, your uncle has hit my house twice. Pulling back into the driveway.
- [64:04]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, my God.
- [64:05]
Jordan Harbinger
And so my dad was like, give me the keys to the car.
- [64:07]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Wow.
- [64:08]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [64:08]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And then Pam threw out a bunch of other good ideas for aging parents. If your mom declines physically, you could get her a device to wear, you know, like one of those Life Alert products, something like that. If she falls, she just pushes a button, and that'll call you and emergency services in one go. Kind of. Great. I've fallen and I can't get up. Just took me back to 1993.
- [64:29]
Jordan Harbinger
Watching TV at home, 1987 or whatever.
- [64:32]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Was it earlier than that?
- [64:32]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, man, definitely. There are also GPS monitors or even something like an Apple watch, a device that would allow you to locate her at any time, obviously. Look, this stuff, not a substitute for adequate supervision if somebody with dementia is prone to wandering or driving around, but it can certainly help.
- [64:49]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And if your mom forgets to take her medication, Pam said that there are these automatic medication dispensers that'll contact you if her medication is not taken, or at least if it doesn't leave the dispenser, which is kind of amazing. I'd never heard of this. You can also ask her physician if they can tell from the exam whether it looks like she's been taking her medications consistently.
- [65:06]
Jordan Harbinger
Bottom line, it sounds like it's time to plan for your mother's future care and Pam's advice. Find an attorney who specializes in elder law and go with your sister and talk with them about your options. Then bring your mom into the conversation. This attorney can advise you on power of attorney, living wills, estate planning, future care, all of that. Pam was very clear on this point. It is really important that you have these conversations with your mom now, not later. Now, Pam told us that when her sister got frustrated by their mom at this stage, she told their mom that these decisions will be made and that she could make them now while she still has the ability to give input, or they would make them later for her when she would have no input. So Pam's mom chose to make these choices herself, which is probably ideal, but not every mom is going to be open to that.
- [65:52]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And by the way, this is another reason that it's important to get a formal assessment by a doctor because that will help you know what she needs and it'll inform all of the planning for her future. I just want to quote Pam here. She said something really important. You're entering a phase of your mom's life that can sometimes be fraught with difficulty. So good luck and just keep your mom's best interests at heart. That will ensure that you're making the best decisions.
- [66:16]
Jordan Harbinger
Agreed. Your mom is lucky to have you and your sister looking out for her, sending you and your mom a big hug and wishing you the best. Big thanks to Pam for her wisdom and experience here. Pam now provides consulting services primarily to assisted living facilities. We're going to include her LinkedIn profile in the show notes if you want to connect with her. Gabe, I got to say, I find it so helpful and reassuring to talk to somebody who's a couple of life stages ahead of me and has seen a lot of this firsthand. Yeah, it's so wild watching your parents age. It's such a role reversal. But it's nice to know that there are some best practices and examples to follow. I'm not there yet. Right. My parents are both fine, but it's.
- [66:51]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Kind of a matter of time to look ahead. Yeah, totally.
- [66:54]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. All right. And now for the recommendation of the week.
- [66:58]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I am addicted to lip filler.
- [67:00]
Jordan Harbinger
By the way, Gabe, I don't know if you saw this. A show fan's child drew a graphic that says, I am addicted to lip fillers.
- [67:07]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, yeah, I saw this in our slack. That was so funny.
- [67:09]
Jordan Harbinger
It's a giant pair of lips. She said, I listened to the show so much that my kid drew this in art class. So funny.
- [67:18]
Gabriel Mizrahi
We should send that to the guy who said this clip. And what show is this again? Botched.
- [67:21]
Jordan Harbinger
It's called Botched. And the guy's name is Jordan, so I can remember it really easily. His name's Jordan.
- [67:25]
Gabriel Mizrahi
We should find that.
- [67:26]
Jordan Harbinger
It's hilarious. And I'm just so glad that this meme is so strong that the kid hears it in the car, draws it at school. Just ridiculous. My recommendation of the week this is, speaking of ridiculous is rippedbody.com this sounds insane. It's my friend's company. He's coming on the show, actually, and I always make fun of him because his Instagram handle is Andy Rippedbody. So whenever we meet people, I'm like, tell her your Instagram handle. And he's like, shut up, dude. He's like, it's a brand, not a descriptor. But it's the website and content that I used to lose 40 pounds of fat and learn how to count calories. And he has these really amazing books on nutrition and calorie counting and macros and stuff, because that stuff was always really confusing for me and seemed to be just a whole lot of trouble and too precise and blah, blah, blah. So I grabbed the books from him. There's two books I recommend, the Diet Adjustments Manual and the Nutrition Setup Guide. They're both very reasonably priced@rippedbody.com they're really easy to read. There's drawings in there. All the concepts are really easy. Tells you the stuff that's important. And then he's like, here's how all this other stuff works. Basically, you can forget about it, worry about this one or two things. And so I did that, and like I said, I lost 40 pounds of fat and I gained 10 or 20 pounds of muscle over the time that I was dieting. And I reread these books every year. I skim them and if I'm gaining weight, I read that part and if I'm losing weight, I reread that part and I sent them to Jen and she read them and she's like, wow, I actually understand nutrition for the first time in my life. So I highly recommend that if you're gonna try to gain muscle or you're trying to lose weight, start@rippedbody.com, he offers coaching and stuff too, but honestly, just grab the books. It'll be a massively educational experience for you, even if you already lift weights all the time. It's not about weightlifting, it's about the food that you eat and how it all works in your body and why your body loses weight and loses muscle and keeps muscle. It's really interesting. And that's it. Riptobody.com, we'll link to it in the show notes. Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or whatever, if there was an episode you liked, an episode you didn't like, a lot of episode specific conversations happening there. There's also memes and funny stuff and just general conversation that I think is really cool. It's all on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, next up.
- [69:42]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Dear Jordan and Gabe, two years ago I went through the most traumatic experience I could imagine. My wife of 15 years cheated on me and left me for another man. I watched her fall in love with this guy right in front of my face, all while she blamed literally everything on me. She took no accountability for her actions. To say that I was devastated would be an understatement. My self esteem was gone and I thought the world would be better off without me. I wrote a suicide note to each of my children and my parents. Then one day when they were all out of the house, I loaded my pistol, turned the safety off and held the gun to my head as I screamed at my reflection in the mirror.
- [70:25]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh my God. My heart is racing hearing this. Oh my God.
- [70:29]
Gabriel Mizrahi
After a few minutes and further breaking down, I called a friend, gave him my pistol to hold onto and went to visit my grandma four hours away, who at the time was dying of cancer.
- [70:41]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm so glad that you did that man. Way to listen to that voice telling you to stay alive. What a miracle. I Am very proud of you and I'm glad that you're with us. I'm sorry about your grandma.
- [70:51]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Since then I have gone to so much therapy, made new friends and gotten new hobbies and my relationship with my kids is better than it's ever been. I've accepted that I'm not the terrible person my ex wife made me out to be. I'm truly living the best life I've ever lived.
- [71:08]
Jordan Harbinger
Incredible. What a journey you've been on.
- [71:11]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Gosh, yeah. On the one year anniversary of the event, the friend who held my pistol for me, my brother and his wife and I, the only people who know about the suicide attempt, all went out to dinner to celebrate my new life. It was really meaningful to me. Almost like a birthday party, but far more significant.
- [71:28]
Jordan Harbinger
God, I love that man. That must have been an emotional night because I'm getting emotional just hearing this letter. Jeez.
- [71:34]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Seriously. Now we're approaching the two year anniversary and I'm wondering whether to celebrate. I don't want this to be an attention seeking thing. That's not what I'm after. It's not a celebration of the terrible event. It's a celebration of the fact that I'm alive. People love me, I love my friends and things have never been better. I don't want people to pity me for this experience. I don't need sympathy anymore. But I know that's how people tend to react to this kind of news. What do you think of celebrations like this? Should I expand this to a larger group and invite new friends I've made over the last two years and tell them how much they mean to me? Is this a weird thing to celebrate? Should I stop? Also, is there any way for me to pivot my survival into some sort of suicide prevention awareness among my friends without it feeling like I'm drawing a lot of attention to myself? Thanks for going on this journey with me the last two years, gentlemen. Take care and I'll keep tuning in every Friday. You've become something I look forward to each week. Signed, looking to embrace this complicated celebration.
- [72:37]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Wow. What a story. I'm very moved by your letter. Thank you for writing in for these super kind words. And more importantly, thank you so much for taking good care of yourself and asking for help when you needed it. That takes a lot of courage, a lot of vulnerability and look where it's gotten you. It's extraordinary. First of all, I'm so sorry that you went through all of this with your wife. I just can hear how painful that was to get to the point of wanting to commit suicide. Things must have been very dark. I can't even imagine watching that, that happen in front of your face. And then have her be so cold about it and blame me for it. When I think about this, I feel my own heart just being torn into with claws. I can only imagine what you actually felt. Anyway, I'm so glad that you didn't go through with it. You decided to work on yourself in such an amazing way. You went to therapy, you built new relationships, you reinvested in your life. You are a case study of doing the work. Man, look where it's gotten you. How close your friendships are, how grateful you are to be alive. Now your kids get to have their father and the people in your life get to have a friend. And this is just all very touching. So I think the celebration is incredible. It's meaningful to you and to your friends. If it stays meaningful over the years, I say keep doing it and keep using it as an opportunity to take stock of your life, to express your gratitude to your friends for helping keep you alive, to reflect on how far you've come. I definitely don't think it's a weird thing to celebrate. It's unconventional maybe, but it's not weird. Like I said, it's very moving. Now it's an interesting question whether to expand it to a larger group. I guess my question for you would be where is the idea to bring new people into this ritual coming from? It sounds like you want to tell the new friends you've made how much they mean to you, the profound role they've played in your life. I love that. I also don't know if you necessarily need to tell all those folks about the suicide attempt in order for them to understand how much they mean to you. You. Maybe this anniversary evolves into a more general celebration of life that only these three people, or whatever it is, know the origins of. Although sharing the full story, hey, it might make this ritual more impactful. And if you're concerned about this feeling like an attention seeking thing, maybe you literally say, I know the story I just told you is pretty intense. I worry that all this feels like a bid for sympathy or pity or attention, but it is not. I am just so grateful to be alive. And I'm alive because of all of you. My life has never been better. I want to celebrate that publicly with all of you. And I just want to thank you for being a part of my journey. If you say something like that and if you really mean it, of course I'M confident that this is going to land the right way.
- [75:09]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, I do too. That's lovely. It's a good question. Which things we're supposed to really share out loud and with which people and why? I don't know if I have a strong opinion either way. This is totally up to you to decide. But sometimes we think we need to talk about certain things in order for them to be real, in order for people to feel them, for them to be alive. That's my tendency, too. I can sometimes be very earnest and over explain. But as I get older, I'm also starting to appreciate that some really meaningful things can translate just by us being in touch with them inside of ourselves. And then they can live in whatever we do or say without necessarily talking about every single aspect of them. So, for example, if you threw this party and you gave a toast, and in your toast you talked about how much your friends mean to you and how much you've evolved over the past two years. Maybe you even say, hey, I was in a really dark place not too long ago, and things have turned around in this remarkable way, and it's because of all of you. And I just want to share that with you. If you're in touch with the intensity, the significance of that chapter, your friends are going to feel that. They're going to go, man, this guy has been through something. His heart has been cracked open. He's generous, he's kind, he's vulnerable. He's sharing this with us. They're going to be moved. So, again, nothing wrong whatsoever with telling all of these people, this larger circle, exactly what you went through, if that feels right to you. The subtext of what I'm saying is not that you should be ashamed of this suicide attempt and you should not talk about it. That's not what I'm saying. It could be a very powerful moment. But I'm just giving you another possibility here. If you decide to keep certain details private, you can also trust that we don't always need to give voice to every single detail of an experience in order for our stories to make an impact.
- [76:46]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, good point. And when it comes to a story as meaningful as this, you might also want to ask yourself what sharing it widely might do to that story. It might enrich your story, bring you closer to your friends, give this anniversary even more meaning, allow your story to help other people, which I know is your other question. It could also chip away at the sacredness of your story. It could make it feel almost like a talking point in this context. It might make you feel like you're performing a little bit. I am also, by the way, not telling you how to feel. I have no idea. Maybe you won't either until you do it. But because this story of yours is so charged and so profound and so personal, it does deserve the right treatment and the right intention, whatever you end up doing.
- [77:28]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Well, I guess this kind of gets at another interesting question, which is, what is his relationship with the story now, and where is it going? Because this is all still very new. He's coming up on just the second anniversary here. So the story he seems to be living with is, I was in a really bad place. Now I'm not. Look how far I've come. And I want people to know that which is beautiful. But now that he's on the other side of this thing, his relationship to these facts might be changing, and it'll continue to change. So, for example, this year he might think of himself as a formerly suicidal person who survived and wants everyone to know next year or the year after or, I don't know, five years from now, he might not identify with these facts in the exact same way. The way that his path is unfolding. He might be more interested in how rich and full his life continues to be. And he might not feel the need to talk about the suicide attempt with newer people as much. Just the fact that he's made all of these new friends since this happened in a big way that was informed by the suicide attempt. But in another way he formed those friendships as he was becoming a very different person. So what I'm getting at is it might be important for him that these people know what he went through, the person he was before they met. Or he might want to just allow these new friends to know him as the person he is now, which he obviously feels is a much healthier and more authentic version of himself, and that is equally part of his story that's just as valid.
- [78:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Good point. Or would that feel like hiding in some way?
- [78:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Okay, fair question. So maybe that's another thing to sit with. Would not telling your wider circle about the suicide attempt feel more like hiding from them? Like depriving them of knowing something important about you? Or would it feel more like protecting something that's very personal and being thoughtful about whom you share it with? Again, that's only something you can answer. But I think deep down we know when we're being thoughtful and when we're hiding, just like we know when we're being vulnerable and when we're looking for attention.
- [79:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Good distinction. As for your last question, I do think there's a way for you to use your survival story to help other people who might be feeling suicidal. That is really the power of a great story. But your intentions there have to be very clear too. If you're doing it to raise awareness among your friends, that's going to translate. If you're conflicted or there are some other strands in there, it might not land the way that you hope. And maybe this is a good argument for sharing your story with your friends. If they hear that you went through this and they want to talk about something similar that could really inspire them or make them feel safe coming to you. I guess it depends on how important this mission is to you.
- [79:59]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And there are lots of ways to pursue that mission. You could talk to your friends directly. You could go volunteer at a crisis hotline or a suicide hotline, which, by the way, I did in high school and it was life changing and I love it and part of me even wants to go, maybe volunteer again later in life. It's quite something. You could, I don't know, work with a mental health nonprofit or a charity where you get to tell your story or work with people directly. You could write about this experience or speak about this experience. What you went through, what you learned. There are a lot of ways to put this experience to good use. My feeling is that your story would make a huge impact in any of these roles. You're just, you're so connected to the meaning of the last two years and what it actually requires to recover from stuff like this. So I do wonder if initiatives like the ones we just mentioned might help you create even more meaning out of this. In addition to this party.
- [80:45]
Jordan Harbinger
I think it might. Wherever you tell your story, whoever you tell it to, it's going to make an impact. All you need to do is get clear on where it feels most useful and appropriate and authentic to you and stay connected to your why. And I know that you'll hit the right note again. Man, I'm so glad that you're alive. I'm so impressed by how far you've come. You are a case study in doing the work, staying connected to meaning, cultivating close relationships that can take care of you when you need it. It is honestly, it's super inspiring to hear. So keep up the amazing work and hey man, keep on thriving. Don't forget about Ed Helms and Daniel Levitin on the power of music to heal in a very non woo woo, very sciency way and are out of the loop on Rwanda and scam call centers if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust. Sounds like some of our letter writers here on Feedback Friday are feeling the same. Our course, six Minute Networking, teaches you how to build something similar for yourself. It is free. It is not schmoozy, it's not gross, it's not transactional. It's on the Thinkific platform over@sixminutenetworking.com the drills take a few minutes a day. Dig the well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them again. Sixminutenetworking.com, show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts and ways to support the show, all@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter Abemizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Aaron Hoskins and Pam Dukes. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.