← The Jordan Harbinger Show
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- [00:00]
Jordan Harbinger
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
- [00:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in.
- [00:07]
Jordan Harbinger
A reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a.
- [00:10]
Ryan Reynolds
Thing Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless how many? Better get 30. 30. Better get 30. Better get 2020 20. Better get 2020 better to get 151515 15.
- [00:17]
Jordan Harbinger
Just 15 bucks a month.
- [00:19]
Ryan Reynolds
Sold.
- [00:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network spizzy. Taxes and fees extra.
- [00:29]
Audible Advertisement
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- [01:19]
Ryan Reynolds
Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger.
- [01:21]
Charlamagne Tha God
Show, when you go from the ambitious part, that's the first part to the success part, that's when you really start to see what kind of demon ego can be. Especially if you have a wounded ego. Especially if you've got a lot of trauma that you haven't dealt with. Because success money doesn't change you, it just amplifies whatever you already are.
- [01:47]
Ryan Reynolds
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional mafia enforcer, gold smuggler, national security advisor, or legendary Hollywood actor. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do that, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation Psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started real quick before we dive in. Gabriel, if you're listening, skip ahead at least one minute. I'm serious. Once again, don't listen to the next minute. All right, so Gabriel Mizrahi, our velvet voiced co host, unlike my voice, right now, something's going on. He's heading off on a new adventure abroad. Don't worry, he's not leaving the show. But we are putting together a surprise video montage to send him off in style. Big thanks to Amanda for the idea. If Gabriel has ever made you laugh, think or feel seen, record a short video, 30 seconds or less and, well, hopefully much less, upload it to jordanharbinger.com Gabe G A B E Submissions have already been trickling in and we've been watching them behind the scenes. Some are super touching. Others are totally hilarious. Shout out to the listeners who dog popped a balloon on camera. That was pretty cool. We can't wait to stitch them together and surprise Gabe. And remember, this is a secret. No tagging, no spoilers. Thank you for helping us pull this off. You all seriously rock. And he's gonna love it. Today on the show, Charlamagne the God is back. Now, this is funny. I was doing this one live in person in New York, I should say. And there's a studio in Manhattan that I use. There's a few. And this one happened to have a vacant property on the ground floor. So there's this homeless guy who sleeps in the doorway. And I'd been in the studio every day for a week for most days, and this guy was always in the doorway and he was always asleep. I never saw him awake at all. And I'm on my way back to studio. I went to 711 to get a protein shake. Meathead phase. And this homeless guy is awake standing up, and he's on a phone. I guess he has a cell phone. And I knew that Charlamagne had arrived to studio because this homeless guy was yelling into the phone, charlemagne, the God is here. Charlamagne, the God. Charlemagne, the God is here. That's how I knew he made it to studio because there was some talk about he might have to cancel. There's a family thing going on. The studio wasn't cancelable. So I found out half a block away because that homeless guy started losing his mind. That Charlemagne the God was in studio. And indeed we had a great conversation. It was a hell of a lot of fun. I really enjoy talking to this guy. I know you'll enjoy this conversation as well. It's all about success, career, mental health, rapport with others, relationships, and we dive into some pop culture stuff, as it were. I think it's a really fun and interesting conversation that is not full of small talk. And I think you'll enjoy it as well. Now here we go with Charlamagne Tha God.
- [04:47]
Jordan Harbinger
You start the new book talking about Kanye. I'm gonna guess you're a little bit sick of this guy by now. I think a lot of people are sick of this guy by now. You're the one person that I feel like I can ask this because you have some experience with him. How can a black dude be a white supremacist? I don't get it.
- [05:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
You asking me? I have no idea either. I think that's one of the most confusing things that we've ever witnessed. Think about it like this. It's so confusing that the only time we ever even saw that premise was on Dave Chappelle when he did Clayton Bigsby and when Aaron Magruder did the Boondocks with Uncle Ruckus. So it was done in satire. So, like, to see it really play out in real life to the extremes. Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, you've always had what people call coons or sambos, right? But for him to be walking around with a KKK uniform on and it's all black or like the White Lives Matter shirt, You're only doing that to agitate people who are screaming black Lives Matter. So you go out of your way to piss off the black community and to say things that you know will cause the black community to get in an uproar. Like, you know when he was on Drink Champs and he was talking about George Floyd and he was repeating all of the right wing conservative talking points about how they feel George Floyd passed away. Cause he had fentanyl in his system and stuff like that. So for you to go out of your way to be a black white supremacist is actually insane. It's almost like he's like an Oreo supremacist. Is that what you would call that? What would you call that? It's just strange.
- [06:15]
Jordan Harbinger
I shouldn't laugh, but I guess it's just so ridiculous. Like, it's so over the top and yet it's not even Meant as a joke. Like, it's not like he's tongue in cheek with it. He's totally serious.
- [06:23]
Charlamagne Tha God
But you shouldn't take it personal, because Kanye is one of those people that has tried everything to offend folks. I mean, he's literally. He's been anti Semitic.
- [06:29]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [06:30]
Charlamagne Tha God
He's been a black white supremacist. I've never seen somebody crave attention the way that he has. This guy literally went, from my mom, God bless the dead, was a lesbian one week that didn't get the pop he wanted. So, hey, guess what, y' all. I sucked my cousin's dick Till I was 14. Literally, the very next week, I sucked my cousin's dick till I was 14. Like, so you're just trying on gay now? You're cos gay now. Like, literally just because you're looking for a certain level of attention. I don't want that. I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm craving attention that much.
- [07:04]
Jordan Harbinger
No healthy person does, though. And it's interesting because you talk a lot about therapy, and one of our last shows was all about therapy and mental health. This is a guy who either doesn't understand or craves it so much that he doesn't care. He just goes, negative attention, easier to get. I get more of it. I'm going to do that. Like most of us, positive attention, I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but it's okay. Negative attention, I avoid that because that's.
- [07:25]
Ryan Reynolds
What normal people do.
- [07:26]
Jordan Harbinger
And he's just like, nah, I don't care.
- [07:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know, man, it's hard for me to have empathy for Kanye, and I'll tell you why. Because I've heard him talk about his perceived struggles with mental health before, but then he plays hokey pokey with it. He'll tell you, oh, I got bipolar. I'm dealing with depression. Right. But then he'll, no, I'm not. You're aware, first of all, you're aware that something may be going on, and you have every single resource. You have access to the best resources to get the help that you claim you needed at one point.
- [08:00]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, you could hire the best therapist in the world.
- [08:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
The best. Like, you know, I saw him complaining about being 5151 time by the Kardashian Jenners. I don't know if that was true or not, but even if it's not to that extreme, you can go get some type of healing if you want it. You're choosing not to. And what you're doing now is you're projecting whatever hurt and trauma you have onto everybody else. It's hard for me to feel sorry for a person like that because in a lot of ways, and I'm not here to diagnose nobody, but it's just in a lot of ways, I'm like, if you're that self aware and you're that strategic and methodical about how you choose to fuck with people, how mentally ill are you really?
- [08:41]
Jordan Harbinger
You're right, I'm not a doctor. I don't know much about it. 5150 for those who don't know is what, like, involuntarily committed? Basically like a psych hold.
- [08:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
They call people on you and they come lock you up. But like I said, I'm not trying to diagnose. If that brother needs to, I really, truly hope he gets it. But it's hard for me to have any type of empathy when I've heard him talk about his mental health struggles. But he's not actually going out there to do the work to try to get better. Like, you're choosing, you're consciously choosing, intentionally choosing to with people when you could be consciously and intentionally choosing to go get some healing.
- [09:13]
Jordan Harbinger
It's probably a hell of a lot harder to go, I gotta look in the mirror every day with a therapist for an hour and get to the bottom of all my trauma. It's probably harder to do that than to be like, you know what? I can get my publicist to make this blow up, and then I can deal with the fallout of that, and I can ignore the fallout of that, and I can blame my ex wife for this.
- [09:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's right.
- [09:29]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm good.
- [09:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's easier to me, it's way easier to go get help, go get on your healing journey than it is to constantly come up with new ways to garner attention. Yeah, I don't know where you go after. I suck my cousin's dick until I was 14 years old. I don't even understand the context of what he was trying to say. Like, it's just strange.
- [09:47]
Jordan Harbinger
It makes no sense. Like, some African Americans, they. They hate Jews or whatever. And I'm used to that. I've met a lot of when I worked in Detroit. There was these Nation of Islam guys or something like that, and they kept telling me how much they hated Jews. And I was like, you know, my mom's Jewish and they're like, well, that makes you a Jew. And then they treated me different. I didn't like it as like my first experience with I guess racism, anti Semitism.
- [10:04]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know what's interesting? My father was a Jehovah Witness. And, you know, he got into Islam and the Nation. So I've been around the Nation literally my whole life. You know, one of the first books that my dad gave me was the Autobiography of Malcolm X. I love that book because it shows that Malcolm Little can evolve to be someone like Malcolm X. And the thing I love about the Nation is they have always taken those of us who have submitted to the worst in us. It made us raise up and submit to the best of us. A lot of people submit to the devil in them. But the Nation of Islam makes you submit to God. And one thing that I've always loved because the Autobiography of Malcolm X led me to read Message to the Black man by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, who I think is just one of the greatest humans to ever walk the face of the earth just because of the community he built, called the Nation of Islam. But you know what? The Honorable Elijah Muhammad would always say, learn from Jewish people. Study Jewish people. They practice unity and group operations. So I didn't grow up with the hate Jew thing. I don't know. I don't know where that came from. And I think that's a narrative that I know for a fact a lot of people in the Nation do not carry. And I think the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan gets a lot of flack. Because if you listen to the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, which I have been for my whole life the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan calls out everybody. He's not saying all Jewish people are bad just like he doesn't say all black people are bad. He calls out the people in the black community he feels are holding us back. And he calls out people in the Jewish community who he feels are holding progress back. Rabbis and people come to the mosque all the time and, you know, build with the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan.
- [11:42]
Jordan Harbinger
I never understood, I don't know, a lot of the teachings that. I'm glad to hear you say this because I thought it was surprising because I'm not super Jewish. But you always grow up hearing that we are, like, really closely related as Semitic people. And I know that's different with Nation of Islam, but it doesn't matter. So it was surprising. And also, I didn't understand what that was based on. Of course, I didn't know anything about the Arab Israeli conflict when I was 17 years old. So it was very odd. And I remember, like, they wouldn't let their wives talk to Me. And then, even though we worked together, it was like this weird thing where I had to talk to them. Yeah, they were like, my wife's not allowed to talk to you. And I was like, all right. So, like, I had to talk to them to tell their wife something. And my boss ended up being like, this is a huge pain in the ass. I was a manager at one point, and, like, he needs to be able to tell you what to do. You can't be, like, telling her husband, who's not at the same site or whatever to tell you to do. Like, it doesn't work. And then I ran into those, like, what are they called? Like, Black Israelites. Yeah, that was next level. Because I was like, oh, hey, this is cool. You guys are Jews. And they were like, this is not cool, buddy. Like, I was like, oh, never mind. I thought we were going to.
- [12:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
But, you know, interesting with that, too, because I feel like a lot of individuals feel that if we say, hey, we're the real Jewish people, then all of the great things that Jewish people have been able to accomplish automatically, magically just gets transferred to you. Because, like, I really. I'm serious. I really think that's people's mentality.
- [13:01]
Jordan Harbinger
That's interesting.
- [13:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think that's where a lot of folks frustration comes into play. But this is what I always say, man. It's like, don't generalize a whole group of people because you might have had a bad experience or have a false narrative of one person. Like, if one black person robs you, that don't mean all black people are robbers. Right. You know what I'm saying? If you had one bad experience with a Jewish person, that don't mean all Jewish people are evil. And I have to get you. And I really do not like the broad generalization, but that right there is something I've thought about. I really feel like a lot of black people feel like, hey, if we are the real Jews are the real black Israelites, we should have the benefits that Jewish people have. I really think they think it's just some, like, magical transfer.
- [13:42]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it's weird. I never understood it. I think a lot of Jews agree our numbers are small. We can. If you want to join the club, just come join the club, man. But probably don't be like, that's what I love, though. Huge assholes about everything.
- [13:52]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'll be the first to tell you, when I look at the number of Jewish people in this country and what Jewish people have been able to accomplish, it's inspiring to me. I don't know what to tell folks. You know, like, I believe what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said. Study Jewish people. They practice unity and group operation. I used to live in a Jewish neighborhood in New Jersey, and it was so peaceful on Saturday. It was so peaceful. There's just certain things I just respect. I like observing other cultures and seeing how other people move. And you cannot make me believe that a whole group of people are terrible just because of a narrative. Cause I wouldn't want nobody to look at black people like that.
- [14:28]
Jordan Harbinger
For sure. That does make a lot of sense. Whenever I talk about this on my show, it's pretty rare. I mean, I've done it, like, once or twice. I'll get a lot of show fans.
- [14:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
Who are from the Nation of Islam.
- [14:35]
Jordan Harbinger
They're from the Nation of Islam. They'll be like, I don't even know if I believe it or they'll be like, this is rare. And I've heard that so many times that I believe it. Because those people have no incentive to lie to me. I mean, but they're tweeting at me or something.
- [14:45]
Charlamagne Tha God
I know they don't. I think that is one of the greatest false narratives about the Nation of Islam, that they hate Jewish people. I'm telling you, it's the exact opposite.
- [14:53]
Jordan Harbinger
This was, like, one chapter in Detroit that was just spreading that stuff for sure. Because I met all those folks, and they really all had the same narrative, but they all went to the same, I guess, mosque or whatever.
- [15:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah.
- [15:03]
Jordan Harbinger
So it's just one place.
- [15:05]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's definitely a social media thing. Right. But it's like, I've been to the mosque several times. I never heard that. I go back to what I was always originally taught. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, learn from Jewish people, study Jewish people. They pool their resources. They practice unity and group operation. They operate as a community, literally. The Nation of Islam was modeled off of that.
- [15:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. I mean, look, as long as it's not like a dog whistle for Jews control the world, fine. Because sometimes people use it as, like, a little code. Like, yeah, see, they do group operations. And it's like, oh, that's good. Or it's like, they. Group operations, huh? They're all secret network, you know?
- [15:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, we had Jonathan Greeblatt, the head of adl, on the Breakfast Club a couple of times, and we had those conversations like, yo, where does the narrative come that Jews control Hollywood? There is history behind that. Right. But it's because nobody wanted to be in Hollywood. Like, literally, Jewish people went out to California and established this industry. That nobody wanted to be a part of. But as far as they're controlling the media and they're controlling all of the images that people see and, you know, all the negative narratives about everybody, they are because of these wicked Jewish puppet mathers. Like, it's like, all right, come on, man.
- [16:11]
Jordan Harbinger
It is definitely a bridge too far. I mean, a lot of cultures. I can only really speak for the Jewish part that I know about. But one of the reasons the Jews became bankers was because it was against certain religions in those areas at that time to lend money for interest. And the Jews were like, oh, we'll do it because there's a gap in the market. And then it was like, oh, look at them loaning money predatorily. And it's like, you're the one borrowing it. It's against your religion. You need us to do this. Or, like, look at their international trade. Yeah, because you won't let us have other jobs.
- [16:37]
Charlamagne Tha God
I remember the first time I heard that story, and I was like, so you're upset because they did good business? Yes, exactly. What? That's kind of just. It's just strange to me, man.
- [16:49]
Jordan Harbinger
I had a buddy who was kind of anti Semitic for a while, and then he stopped, and I said, what made you change your mind? And he said, I realized all the reason I didn't like Jews was all the reasons that you should actually just admire Jews. Like, they do good business, they operate as a group. He's like, all these things that made me angry, I realized were like, I should probably be doing that.
- [17:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yo, do you know, I got in. I'm not gonna say trouble. Cause it wasn't in no real trouble. But there was a. There was a backlash about maybe like five. It was whenever Nick Cannon had got into his situation.
- [17:16]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [17:16]
Charlamagne Tha God
I remember. You know, he got let go from wilding out for a brief moment. And I remember I was on Breakfast Club and I said, man, this was around the time of Breonna Taylor.
- [17:24]
Jordan Harbinger
She was the one who got shot by the police while sleeping with her boyfriend. Right. They just kicked her door, shot her.
- [17:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
It was Breonna Taylor. And it was another case that was going on. It might have been the brother that was running through the neighborhood. I don't remember. But I was on the radio and I said, man, I mean. Cause Nick Cannon got fired, like, quick.
- [17:38]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [17:39]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I remember saying, man, this just proves how much power Jewish people have. And I can't wait until we get that kind of power, meaning black people, because we can't even get the People who kill us fired. Talking about the police officers.
- [17:55]
Jordan Harbinger
I know. I find that also completely insane.
- [17:57]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know, there's all of these different Jewish outlets, and they were like Charlemagne. The God is anti Semitic propaganda, you know, saying the Jews have power. I'm like, that was a compliment. I wasn't trying. I wasn't saying that to console nobody. I was saying that I cannot wait until we can have that kind of power to where we can get the people who kill us fired.
- [18:16]
Jordan Harbinger
It's hard to disagree with that. Look, there's people who believe all cops are bastards or whatever that the saying is, if these people are out there murdering people in disproportionate numbers, we all need the power to get people who are abusing authority fired. Just that it's very hard to do if you are African American right now. Like, that's the way it is. So I understand what you're saying. I feel like they spun that deliberately to get clicks. That's some bullshit.
- [18:37]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's why I say it wasn't really anything that there was any backlash over. It was just like, wait a minute. But also, that's how me and Jonathan started talking. Me and Jonathan. I'm like, you gotta explain to me why this is bad.
- [18:48]
Jordan Harbinger
What did I step in and did I really step in?
- [18:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, but he explained it. He was like, you know, that reinforces a lot of negative tropes about Jewish people. I just don't like generalizations, man, because I'm a person who has had the beauty of growing up around a lot of different individuals. Growing up in Montgomery, South Carolina, I grew up on a dirt road, and all my friends on the left were black. And then my first white friend, who's still my friend to this day, Thomas Evans and his family was on the right. And my dad and Thomas would literally be outside drinking their beer. And if somebody came down the road, like one of the big pickup trucks in the Confederate flag, both of them, Jimbo was white and my dad was black. Both of them would be like, look at them crackers.
- [19:30]
Jordan Harbinger
Right?
- [19:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know what I'm saying? So it was like it never was about anything other than the environment that we were in. It was a class thing, man. I've had the luxury and I guess the privilege of, like, having so many different people help me throughout my life. You know, the first person who ever hired me in radio, literally gave me a paying job, was a gay black man named Haji Jenkins in Charleston, South Carolina. Right. And me and Haji would be together all of the time, you know? Cause I Was in the promotion department. He was the head of promotions. I didn't care. He was gay. If you grow in the business, the people that you meet who see things in you that you may not see in yourself and want to help you get to that next level. They're white, they're Jewish, they're black men, they're black women. It doesn't matter. I like energy. You know, what's your energy like? If me and your energy mesh. If me and your energy click, we good. Any narratives or stereotypes or generalizations? I'm not with that.
- [20:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. I mean, look, that has served you super well throughout your whole career. You write about it a lot. I always gotta laugh when I hear Moncks Corner because one, it sounds like a fake place. Like, who's. Why do they call it that?
- [20:34]
Ryan Reynolds
And then also in your.
- [20:36]
Jordan Harbinger
One of your books or one of your shows you did with me, you talk about how people would end up under the tree. And I was like, oh, that's a metaphor. And you're like, no, they literally are sitting under a tree.
- [20:44]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. My dad would say, if you don't change your lifestyle, you will end up in jail, dead or broke. Sitting under the tree.
- [20:49]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [20:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
And those are things that I saw early on that made me realize, like, oh, my dad is right. There was people around me that was really going to jail. I went to jail myself. There was people really dying around me. And there was people that I used to look up to that was literally broke sitting under the tree. So I'm like, oh, that ain't generalizing. This shit is literally happening. Right?
- [21:09]
Jordan Harbinger
This is real. Real potential consequence. I know you're a huge Judy Blume fan. Which people might be like, what? Tell us who that is. Because I know she's an author, but I can't remember. Isn't that Judy, you goddess? Me, Margaret.
- [21:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yes. Judy Blum is the greatest young adult author ever. The only person that's even close to me is Beverly, clearly.
- [21:27]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, yeah.
- [21:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
But Judy Blume wrote Are youe There? God Is Me, Margaret. She wrote Blubber. She wrote Forever. She wrote Super Fudge.
- [21:35]
Ryan Reynolds
Super Fudge, that's right.
- [21:37]
Jordan Harbinger
I remember reading that.
- [21:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing like Judy has written so many fantastic books. One of my favorite Judy Blume book is Iggy's House. But the reason I got into Judy Blume is because my mother was an English teacher in South Carolina. And so we also had the Book IT program. So you had to read four books to get a free pizza. You get your four stars and, you know, you can get your pizza. And so I used to run through books. And the best advice my mom ever gave me that stuck with me even past literature, was when she said, read things that don't pertain to you. Because we all tend to do that, right? Like, we all grow up in our bubbles. We all grow up in our echo chambers. And so we only kind of, like, stick to the things that are in that box. And she would always tell me, read things that don't pertain to me. So that's what made me get outside of my box, to not only communicate with other people who don't come from the same environment I come from or who may not be the same color I am or gender, whatever. And so I started reading Beverly clearly and Judy Bloom, because when I would be in the library, the opposite of me was these little white girls and these little white boys that was on these books. And so I would read everything. And the thing that made me fall in love with Judy Bloom was her storytelling ability. That's what I'm into, Jordan. Like, I like storytelling. That's the reason I love hip hop. That's the reason I love country music. That's the reason I love movies. Like, I love books, because of the storytelling aspect. You know, I have sang Judy Blume's praises for as long as I can remember, to the point where one Christmas, she sent me and my daughter an autographed copy of Are youe There, God? It's me, Margaret. And I thought it was my team with me. Yeah, Yeah. I was like, come on. She didn't sign this, like. Cause it's two autographed copies. And then the movie came out. Well, the movie was coming out, and they were having a screening for it in New York, and they was like, hey, Judy would like for you to come see her. I'm like, why y' all fucking with me? And they was like, no, you right. We want you to come see. Judy wants you to come see her. So I went and I met Judy, and, you know, I met her lovely husband and her son, and it's just like, we've developed a relationship since then. I've flown down to Key West a couple of times and, you know, had dinner, me and my wife, with, you know, her and her husband, and we've, you know, I went down to the premiere in Key west of Are you there, Goddess me, Margaret. We communicate. Like, you know, we did. When Simon and schuster had their 100th centennial event. Me and Judy did an event together on stage. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's just like we have a relationship.
- [23:52]
Jordan Harbinger
It's unexpected. I don't think a lot of people would see like middle aged black dude, hip hop show and is like, yeah, I love Judy Bloom of everyone love Judy Bloom.
- [24:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
She's a great. I look at Judy Bloom the same way I look at Jay Z. I look at Judy Bloom the same way I look at Killer Mike, Scarface. She's just a great storyteller. I'm telling you, my favorite Judy Bloom book is Iggy's House. I want to bring Iggy's house to like the big screen or something. Like, have you ever read Iggy's House? Iggy's House was like her first book. And you know, she asked me all the time, she, you don't think this book is. Could be taken wrong now in 2025?
- [24:22]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm like, no, I don't even know what that's about. What is she worried about?
- [24:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
Iggy's House was about a young girl named Winnie who lives in a neighborhood in Michigan. And her best friend's name was Iggy. But Iggy moved and so the neighborhood was anticipating who was going to be moving in this new house. Iggy's family never told anybody because they wanted it to be a surprise. And it was a black family. And so this black family moves into this neighborhood and they are experiencing a lot of racism from a lot of people in the neighborhood. And Iggy is like the white ally before there was white allyship. Like, she's like, she's the person who was like standing up for this family and supporting this family. And then she had the people. One of the brothers in the family was like, get out of here with your white savior complex. Like, it's just a rich. Wow. Judy was so ahead of her time. Yeah. Oh my God. She was so ahead of her time because, you know, Winnie was woke, right? She was what you would call a woke, you know, liberal person, like railing against her father and. Cause her father had racist. I don't wanna say he was completely racist, but he had racist tendencies. He had a little sprinkle of racism. He don't have a problem living in the neighborhood, but y' all stay over here. So I love Iggy's House. I think it's a fantastic book. But yes, I love Judy, man. It's been a pleasure to be able to build a relationship with her and call her a friend.
- [25:39]
Jordan Harbinger
I know you had social anxiety when you were a kid and I guess a lot of people probably don't see how that is possible because of who you are now. What did that look like when you were growing up?
- [25:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's interesting that you asked that question because of who I am now. You know, I created that character Charlamagne, the God, to protect Leonard, because Lenard was the person dealing with all the social anxiety and, you know, the bouts of depression. Lenard was the person who was just trying to fit in when he was in sixth, seventh grade because he was tired of getting bullied by his older cousins.
- [26:08]
Jordan Harbinger
Right.
- [26:09]
Charlamagne Tha God
Because he wasn't the tough guy. And it got to a point where it's like, yo, if you can't beat him, join them. It literally was like a villain origin story. Like they used to bully me so much, my glasses used to always fall off. And one day the glasses just fell and hit the ground and just broke. And so I just squinted my way through Thug Life, right? I was like, you know what? If I can't beat him, join them. And so the character that was created when I was 17 was what I wanted people to see me as. So if I created this character, it'll distract you from the guy with these anxiety and these bouts of depression and insecurities. You know what I mean? And so what has been one of the great joys of my life in recent years is allowing Lenard, who's gone on this journey, this healing journey since 2016, going to therapy and plant based medicines and doing all of these different things to fix a lot of that unhealed trauma. It's been a pleasure to watch that person and Charlemagne actually meet each other.
- [27:03]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, yeah. The alter ego is blending in with the real identity or whatever.
- [27:08]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like Smart Hulk. It's when Bruce Banner and the Hulk.
- [27:10]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [27:11]
Charlamagne Tha God
Finally combined.
- [27:12]
Jordan Harbinger
Last time we hung out 2021, you told me you were getting rid of Twitter and other social media. That was episode 171, which is kind of funny because this is probably like 1371 or something. See Instagram here and there.
- [27:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
But yeah, I get on Instagram. I don't do Twitter at all.
- [27:25]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, that was pure negativity.
- [27:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
Whatever Twitter evolved into, I don't want either one of them. Right. And it's like I knew back then even before it was an Elon Musk and he opened the floodgates. It just wasn't good for my mental health because I just feel like nobody should have access to that much opinion about them.
- [27:45]
Jordan Harbinger
That's a good point.
- [27:45]
Charlamagne Tha God
I always say we're in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones. By choice.
- [27:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, by choice.
- [27:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
I would literally get on social media and tweet out, thank you, God for blessing me with another day of life. And there'd be people saying, man, I was wishing you'd die. I was praying you die. I'm like, Jesus, why am I subjecting myself to that? And another thing too, as a media personality, it became such an echo chamber. And you would be talking to people and you would be like, you got that from Twitter. That's not even your original thought on the situation. You don't even really feel like that. You're literally just parroting what you see. People on social media say, I don't want people to tell me what to think. I don't want people to tell me what to believe. I was at the University of Chicago yesterday with David Axelrod and I was talking to the students and I told him this. One of them guys asked me a very brilliant question. He said, what is broken in the media ecosystem? Because he felt like the media ecosystem is broken because these clips and everything are creating these narratives. And I go, the media ecosystem isn't broken at all. The way we consume content is because a two minute clip of Jordan and Charlamagne can go viral. Somebody might take me just saying something.
- [28:54]
Jordan Harbinger
About Jews, whatever, a Jew, you know what I'm saying?
- [28:56]
Charlamagne Tha God
But somebody could take that one little clip, 10 seconds, put it online, and I'm like, I didn't even say that. So you as a person have to challenge yourself. When you get a 30 second clip or a minute clip or a two minute clip, you gotta go challenge yourself to watch the whole context of the conversation.
- [29:12]
Jordan Harbinger
So that's like a part time job, right? So you might as well avoid the whole thing. If you're have to do an hour of fact checking to make sure this thing someone sent you is real, would.
- [29:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
You rather have that be a part or would you rather just be lazy and do a half ass job?
- [29:25]
Jordan Harbinger
I would just avoid it altogether. Like, I don't even want the drum. I don't want the little clip or the big clip. I just want to play Legos with my kids or something.
- [29:32]
Charlamagne Tha God
By the way, that's a good way to handle it. But most people don't. They see that little clip and then they form a whole narrative about it, they form a whole opinion around it. And now people hate Charlamagne or they hate Jordan because of a 30, 45 second clip. I don't like that guy based off a 45 second clip. You hate his whole life. That's right, because of a 45 second or a minute long clip. So the media ecosystem isn't broken. The way we consume content is.
- [29:54]
Ryan Reynolds
Since I don't want to end up broke under a tree, I need you to support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and amd. What would you do if your company's big product launch got hijacked not by competitors, but by a hacker? That's exactly what happens in this latest episode of the Cybersecurity Tapes, a podcast from Dell Technologies and amd. This is not your typical tech talk podcast. These are fictionalized stories based on real world cyber threats and they're crafted to pull you in like a thriller. But each episode is packed with insights to help you stay protected. In episode six, a CEO steps on stage to unveil a breakthrough AI powered finance app and everything unravels in front of a live audience. Wrong slides. Glitched teleprompter? Was it a man in the middle attack, a targeted exploit, or something worse? In a world where AI is accelerating everything, including cybercrime, these dramatized stories show you what's possible, how the attacks unfold, and most importantly, what you can do to protect yourself, your team and your data. Because today's cyber threats aren't just a tech problem, they're a business problem. And no one is immune. Subscribe to the cyber security tapes wherever you get your podcasts and hear how it all goes down when security fails in real time. This episode is also sponsored by Uplift. If you work at a desk all day like I do, you know how easy it is to spend way too much time sitting, which is horrible for my hip flexors. That's why I love my Uplift desk. Now I can stand and stretch while I'm working. I'm way more alert and focused because of it. What's great is Uplift desk isn't just a desk, it is fully customizable. I got the walnut top wire management underneath to keep things clean and my favorite add on is the balance board. It keeps me subtly moving all day which is huge for circulation and energy. And here's something wild. Your calves are sometimes called the second heart because they help pump blood back up to the rest of your body. Standing and moving throughout the day actually supports your vascular system. I didn't realize how much better I could feel until I built this setup. So if you want to feel better, work better. Actually enjoy your workspace. Give your body a desk it deserves.
- [31:42]
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- [32:05]
Ryan Reynolds
Uplift Desk this episode is also sponsored in part by Progressive. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for free over@sixminetworking.com. i know what you're thinking. I network fine. I don't need this. Maybe that's true, but I just got done teaching this to the three letter agencies that keep us all safe around here and I feel like they got a bunch of value out of it. In fact, they told me they did. So maybe you can learn a thing or two. And the course, by the way, it's very easy. It's non cringe, it's not awkward, it's not cheesy. It's just practical stuff that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better peer at work. Personal, whatever it is, in six minutes a day is all it takes. Many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course. Again, it's free over@sixminutenetworking.com all right, now back to Charlamagne the God.
- [33:19]
Jordan Harbinger
When I interviewed Kobe a long time ago, about two, three months before he passed away, I'd asked him what kind of music he likes and I thought it would be funny if you had a Taylor Swift CD in your car. And he goes, oh, I love Taylor Swift. That went viral, but people were looking at me like, oh, he must not like Taylor Swift. He was making fun of Taylor Swift. He thought Kobe was going to bite on that. And people were like, they came after me. It was like Jordan, he tried to shit Talk Taylor Swift. I didn't even think about that. I just thought it would be funny if Kobe Bryant had Taylor Swift in his car because he has daughters. He did have Taylor Swift in his car because he has daughters and he loves Taylor Swift. It was so wholesome, Honestly. People wanted to find the negative part of this wholesome clip of Kobe talking up Taylor and how she's a legend, a killer. He called her a killer. And that went viral. And people were like, this Jordan guy sucks. I got so much hate from that. And I had a little glimpse into being, like, an actual famous person for, like, two seconds because it got, like, 28 million views on TikTok. I had to stop reading the comments because I started to hate myself. These people hated me.
- [34:11]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm actually surprised that don't happen to you more because of the fact that you've had this huge platform for so long and, like, we talk for a living.
- [34:18]
Jordan Harbinger
Like, yeah.
- [34:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, there's so many things people can take out of context.
- [34:21]
Jordan Harbinger
You know what it is? I ignore TikTok. My team doesn't make social media clips that are, like, for viral appeal. I think other people do it. I don't even know how they make money doing it, but they'll do it. But then they don't tag me in it, right? Because they want that. They don't say, like, oh, Jordan Harbinger did that. They're like, this is motivational Instagram under hyphen ignore. So the comments that are negative about me are on accounts that I never see at all. Yeah, they're out there. I just. You have to look for them. And I'm like, why am I going to do that to myself? You wouldn't do that to yourself.
- [34:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's really a choice.
- [34:49]
Jordan Harbinger
It is a choice.
- [34:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
I literally. You can be riding in a car or be at home. Let me go on YouTube and see what they're saying about me. I can guarantee you they ain't saying nothing good. Like, they ain't saying a motherfucking thing good about you. So why would you go subject yourself to that level of abuse? For what? And by the way, show me the place where people are actually saying positive things about a person on social media. Like, those moments are so few and far between. That's the reason I like Instagram. You can mute words and block certain words and you curate your content to where you do have, like, this community where it's like, you and the people you actually follow. And most of the people that follow you, if they're following you, is because they like you. Right?
- [35:27]
Jordan Harbinger
Except for the psychos, but.
- [35:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, except for the psychos, but you.
- [35:30]
Jordan Harbinger
Can block those people.
- [35:30]
Charlamagne Tha God
Those people are insane. That's a form of insanity. Insanity is doing. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So why are you following me every day? Why are you leaving comments if you don't like what I do? But, you know, there was a theory back in the day. Howard Stern. They said either twice or three times. The people. When it came to his ratings, the people who didn't like him listened three times as much than the people who actually did.
- [35:55]
Jordan Harbinger
That's so weird to me. I don't think I consume anything from anybody that I don't like. I don't know why you would do that. Hey, people like to be outraged.
- [36:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
Or they do. But guess what? The algorithm don't know the difference, Jo. Like, literally, if you start trending right now, it's probably somebody who don't like you taking a clip out of contact. But the people who do, like you will be defending you. Like, you got to listen to the whole pod, you idiot. And it just creates this tsunami on social media. Algorithm don't know. Algorithm just knows. Jordan Harbinger has been mentioned 10,000 times in the last 25 minutes.
- [36:23]
Jordan Harbinger
What do you think of Taylor Swift?
- [36:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't. I'm honest with you. I don't mean that I don't. I did a social experiment about Taylor. One time when I was on a the Beer and Idiots podcast with my guy, Andrew Schultz, I did a social experiment while I. We were debating about who was bigger, Beyonce or Taylor Swift. And I made up this whole lie called the Michael Jackson Law, where I said beyonce's so big, she can't even go eat at restaurants in public because it'll cause, like, a stampede. A stampede and a riot.
- [36:51]
Jordan Harbinger
I see.
- [36:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
And she'll get charged for that. And I go, but I'm lying. And I want y' all to know that I'm lying. But it doesn't matter that I'm lying, because somebody's gonna still take that clip and post it online and run with it. Guess what? They did, Joy. They took that clip and posted it online and ran with it. Charlamagne, the God, said that Beyonce can't go out in public because of the Michael Jackson Law. I literally told y' all I was lying. That's why one of my favorite books is Brian Holiday. Trust me, I'm lying. I say that all the time. You should believe me, even when I'm lying, because I know nobody cares about the Truth when the lie is more entertaining.
- [37:22]
Jordan Harbinger
It's true.
- [37:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, people don't care about the true period nowadays. They just want to be entertained.
- [37:27]
Jordan Harbinger
I hate that you wrote in the book we sink to the lowest common denominator. We avoid the big questions by filling our minds with fluff, nonsense that delays action and learning. That's pretty insightful. Tell me what you mean by this.
- [37:40]
Charlamagne Tha God
The book you're talking about is my new book, get on us a die line. Why? Small talk sucks. And I think, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about. Like, digging for the truth is hard. Actually searching for facts is hard. Having your opinion or narrative challenged by truth and facts is hard because there is comfort in what you want to believe. That's what it's saying. Ignorance is bliss. Comes from if you don't know, you can just remain happy. And that thing that you don't know will keep you happy. But then when somebody challenges you or tells you the truth and makes you change your mind, now you questioning yourself. But you shouldn't. Like, you're a human being. And intelligent human beings, wise human beings, they have no problem changing their mind when presented with new information. So I think, you know, people have a hard time dealing with the reality of situations. That's another reason I hate small talk. Because, you know, you might come up to me and you have a goal, you have an intention with the conversation you actually want to have with me, but you start taking me down this other timeline of nonsense. Charlamagne, have you been working out? I like your jean jacket. Oh, your head is so shiny. Like, whatever. Like, like, bro, what do you want? Yeah, yeah, don't hit me with all the fluff and everything.
- [38:52]
Jordan Harbinger
That's right.
- [38:53]
Charlamagne Tha God
Let's get right to it. We know what we're here for. What do you want?
- [38:56]
Jordan Harbinger
Well, you probably didn't even see these, but I get these pictures that are, like, clearly written by AI with the like. I loved your latest episode on Charlemagne. The God get honest or die Lying. And then there's a paragraph of shit. And I'm like, what are you selling me? And then as you get to the bottom of the three paragraphs, it's like.
- [39:10]
Ryan Reynolds
My new book on financial management for.
- [39:13]
Jordan Harbinger
People who live in Canada would be a great fit. And it's like, no, just start with that and I'll delete this early and I won't be mad at you for pitching because, you know, shoot your shot.
- [39:21]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's right.
- [39:21]
Jordan Harbinger
But now I'm mad at you because I had to read three paragraphs. About my show of you trying to butter me up with chat. Gpd.
- [39:26]
Charlamagne Tha God
You don't have to get this out of here. You don't have to do that. And another thing is, like, small talk is also when somebody come up to you and be like, so, Jordan, how are you?
- [39:33]
Jordan Harbinger
Like, the shallow version? Yeah.
- [39:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
Cause they don't really care. They don't care because either hit them with this. Either tell them exactly what's really going on. Yeah, you have an. Oh, I love that.
- [39:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I just had a vasectomy. My left nut is super swollen and infected. It barely fits in these joggers, dude.
- [39:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
Exactly.
- [39:47]
Jordan Harbinger
Okay. I just wanted to know what you.
- [39:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, you didn't. You actually didn't want to know at all, because now you're just forced to actually listen to me. And so I felt like this since COVID and I think Covid taught us this a little bit. Don't ask people how they're doing if you're not ready for a real answer.
- [40:02]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Yeah, I like that.
- [40:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Because Covid was the moment where everybody had to be still. Covid is the moment where a lot of us felt very alone. Covid is the moment where a lot of us looked in the mirror and didn't necessarily like what we saw. So if you ask somebody how they are, most people couldn't wait to tell you. Because we hadn't been no human contacts. You'd go to the store. Remember when all of us was going to the store at certain hours with the mask on, and you would see somebody, and you'd be talking six feet away and be like, how are you? You couldn't wait to tell that person what you were really feeling. That's right. Because we didn't have no human contact. Yo, all of that stuff, man, it's just like. Yo, be intentional with what you want to say to people. You know what I mean? Like. Like, have a goal. Like, don't just come to me bullshitting me, because that's exactly what small talk is. It's just bullshit. Let's just get to the meat of the conversation.
- [40:48]
Jordan Harbinger
You mentioned some categories of small talk. Maybe I'm confused, but you say small talk about God, small talk about dreams, small talk about our kids. But those are real topics. But I guess what you're saying is, don't come at it in a fluffy way. Those are real topics. Go deep immediately.
- [41:01]
Charlamagne Tha God
Have real conversation.
- [41:02]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
That book is literally designed for people who don't know what the larger conversation is they want to talk about. Because I really do feel like we live in A world where we make micros macros. Like, man, the week we're recording this, there's been more conversation about can 100 men beat a gorilla?
- [41:22]
Ryan Reynolds
Why do I keep seeing this?
- [41:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Why do I keep seeing that? I don't get it.
- [41:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
There's just been more conversation around can 100 men beat a gorilla? Than it has been about a president saying they don't know whether they should have to uphold the Constitution.
- [41:34]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Charlamagne Tha God
You understand what I'm saying? Like, we don't know how to discuss macro issues.
- [41:39]
Jordan Harbinger
That's a good point.
- [41:39]
Charlamagne Tha God
We really make micros macros. And it is so strange to me. And I don't know if it's because I go back to what I said earlier. People are trying to avoid the reality.
- [41:49]
Jordan Harbinger
I think that's it.
- [41:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's much easier to talk about can a hundred men beat a monkey? Than it is to talk about issues that are really impacting us as a society or could impact us as a society.
- [42:00]
Jordan Harbinger
That's a good point. It's less scary to talk about could a hundred men beat a gorilla? Than it is to be like, hey, do you think if we go to war, your kids are going to get drafted?
- [42:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's scary. But those are the things that we should be talking about.
- [42:10]
Jordan Harbinger
I agree with you.
- [42:11]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. Because the same vigor that we use to have those conversations on social media, we should be having to, you know, I guess protect the Constitution.
- [42:21]
Jordan Harbinger
Probably a good idea. Yeah.
- [42:23]
Charlamagne Tha God
Right. To protect democracy. Like, and I'm not even saying it on like, no. Democrat, Republican.
- [42:28]
Jordan Harbinger
No. Just as a person who wants rights at some point in the country.
- [42:32]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's it. That's that. Literally. Far as I knew my whole life, that piece of paper was what made America America. Yeah. So if people are just wiping their ass with that piece of paper, then what are we now?
- [42:41]
Jordan Harbinger
I remember learning that that was like the immutable document that was bulletproof. And now it's like maybe we're just going to ignore it. That scares me. That freaks me out, man.
- [42:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
And, man, you know what I hate? I watch all the networks. Right? Oh, that's my biggest problem is I'm curious.
- [42:55]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, that's my biggest issue. I'm curious. So I watch everything. I watch fox, I watch cnn, I watch msnbc. I watch Young Turks, I watch pvd. I watch all of the different platforms. Right. CNN pisses me off the most.
- [43:06]
Jordan Harbinger
Why is that?
- [43:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
Even though I love it, it's so entertaining, but they ask answers.
- [43:10]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, yeah, yeah. I've seen this, like on 60 Minutes. Well, they'll just throw the question in and be like, does Donald Trump have.
- [43:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
To uphold the Constitution? Yes. He's the President of the United States of America. You know that. Why are you even asking this? Can Donald Trump run for a third term? You know he can't. But guess what? The average person doesn't. Yeah, so that's a good point. The average person is watching CNN and watching y' all debate something that actually has an answer. But being that they're watching you debate it now they don't know, now they're questioning it, now they're calling the radio station, seeing me in the street and telling me, I don't know what I'm talking about. You can run for a third term as president.
- [43:48]
Jordan Harbinger
That's crazy to me. I learned that in like sixth grade. Now I get why you got a security guard. You got people being telling you stupid shit all day. Choke that guy out and let me eat my lunch.
- [43:57]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's what it is.
- [43:59]
Jordan Harbinger
One line hit me hard from the book. I really feel this. You said our lives get smaller and smaller as we get older.
- [44:04]
Charlamagne Tha God
Our lives get smaller and smaller as we get older. Because you know, if you're doing this life thing right, you really start to realize what's important. You stop being a people pleaser and you stop just trying to have a whole bunch of people around you just to make yourself feel better. Like, you know who you can really trust, you know who you really love. Like, you're very cognizant of who makes your energy go up and who makes your energy go down. And those people who make your energy go down, you really try to stay away from them. Your circle gets so small that it becomes a dot.
- [44:34]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. A little bit of a prison, I think. I know you put some thought into this for me. Like my social circle will get smaller and I'm constantly fighting routine. But I don't feel like my whole life has gotten smaller just because I've got kids trying new hobbies, make new friends. But man, you gotta really put energy into that or I don't know about you. Making friends as a middle aged man is not easy. It's hard to go up to somebody and be like, hey, that was a fun conversation, we should hang out again. Because it's like vulnerable and other people are busy.
- [45:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
What's wrong being vulnerable?
- [45:01]
Jordan Harbinger
Nothing. But it's not how we're raised. It's something you gotta put energy into kind of to swim upstream and make it a habit. I don't think it's natural for most guys our age. Do you?
- [45:10]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yes, I do think it's natural. And the reason I tell you why I think it's natural. I think it's natural because, you know, when you make your circle smaller intentionally, the universe naturally, God, naturally brings people around you that should be around you. I truly believe that I'm aware of who I'm sharing space with. I'm intentional about who I'm sharing space with. I wake up in the morning, I go to breakfast Club. I'm intentional about who that space is. I know who all of those people are in that room. These are the people that I choose to be around. I like having them around. The energy that isn't good for us, we try to eliminate. I'm not just out and about. Like, of course, when you're going out and about in your everyday life, you're going to run into people. But I'm not just hanging out. I'm leaving the station, I'm getting in my car, I'm going home. I know that me and my wife going to work out. I'm going to be around my kids, I'm going to be around my family. And any place I choose to go, I pay attention to the people that I meet in those moments I'm talking about. It could be the person sitting next to me on the plane. Me and that person are sharing space, whatever period of time. And if it's meant for us to have a conversation and that might turn into something else, then it naturally will. But you have to be aware of the spaces that you're in and know that everybody you're meeting, you're probably meeting for a reason. Especially if you have trimmed the fat and you're intentional about where you go, who you share space with.
- [46:32]
Jordan Harbinger
I think it sounds like we're kind of saying the same thing. I'm just saying you got to put energy into it. I personally have to put energy into it because my default nature was just to maybe not pay attention to that. But as I got older, I was like, this is gonna get lonely if I don't pay attention to this.
- [46:44]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. And if it's organic and if it's meant to be, it'd be effortless. It won't feel like you're spending no energy. Like the relationships that you have that you feel like, God damn, you pulling teeth or you spending a lot of energy to try to connect and make happen. That's probably not the relationship for you.
- [46:57]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, you're right.
- [46:58]
Charlamagne Tha God
We don't pay attention to our energy enough. Jordan. Like, I am very aware and cognizant of who and what makes my energy go up and who and what makes my energy go down. And the things that make my energy go down, I don't have time for. At 46, almost 47 years old.
- [47:12]
Jordan Harbinger
I can absolutely relate to that. You're almost 47?
- [47:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'll be 47 June 29th.
- [47:16]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow. Oh, wow. Happy birthday. And that's coming right up.
- [47:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah.
- [47:19]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Nice. Do you feel old? I don't feel old. I'm 45.
- [47:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
I feel old.
- [47:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Do you feel older or do you just feel more accomplished? Like, do you feel.
- [47:26]
Charlamagne Tha God
I do feel older, man. It's still crazy. I feel so mature, but then so immature at the same time.
- [47:32]
Jordan Harbinger
I can relate, man. I get it.
- [47:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know what I mean? This age, like. And that's why I, like, you know, kicking the shit with, like, my guys like Andrew Schultz and my homegirls, who really just understand that life is about laughing. Even in the most serious of situations, like me and my wife. It's like, the older we get, the more immature we get. I don't know. Because we got kids and we, like.
- [47:53]
Jordan Harbinger
That'S part of it, I think. Yeah.
- [47:55]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't know what it is, but just like, the older I get, the more mature I get. More responsibilities we have that make us feel like adults, but I feel very immature. Me and my wife say that all the time. We were just having that conversation, like, yo, we really adults? We've been together since we was kids. We've been together for 27 years. I'm like, yo, we're really adults. We got four kids. Like, my oldest daughter is doing college visits now.
- [48:17]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, that's gotta make me feel older.
- [48:18]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know what I'm saying? She's driving. To answer your question, do I feel older? Yes. I feel more mature, but I feel more immature too.
- [48:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I can relate. It's hard to explain, but it's definitely. I think it's definitely because of kids. Because before I had kids, my kids are young, 5 and 3. I definitely was like, I'm not really an adult yet. And then I had kids, and I was like, nope. This is the final frontier of, like, you have the ultimate responsibility now. Yeah. You don't just have a mortgage, which you could shrug off. And if you wanted to screw up your life, like, now you got kids, you don't have the option of screwing up anymore.
- [48:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I think, you know, because thank God, all praise is due to God for having success. When you have success and you don't have to worry about certain things, like, you know, Certain things are taken care of, like bills and stuff like that. You don't really have those stressors. So literally, a lot of your stress only comes from having to deal with other people and their problems. That's a good point, because you've created these boundaries and protected your peace in a way to where you're good. But then people will always try to make their problems your problem. I think that when you don't have those type of stressors, it's easy to really explore, like, who you are. And who I am at the core is a very immature mother. You know what I'm saying? Who just likes to laugh, who has a very dark sense of humor, who really doesn't probably take as much things serious as I should, and it's actually fun to be in that space.
- [49:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Actually, on that note, you mentioned in the book that your anxiety is so bad. You said, I'm wearing a heart monitor right now while you were writing the book. I don't know if you're still doing that, because I'm convinced I'm gonna give myself a heart attack. You know that stress causes heart attacks, right? You always seemed cool as a cucumber. You're kind of. You're fooling everyone, I suppose.
- [49:57]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't know if it's fooling or if I had a little bit of sociopathic tendencies.
- [50:02]
Moby
Really?
- [50:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. You know, growing up, my favorite superhero was Wolverine. Like, I got a tattoo of Wolverine on my arm when I was, like, 18, 19, when, like, tattoos in South Carolina were illegal. And the thing I used to always.
- [50:12]
Jordan Harbinger
Like about illegal, I didn't know. It's crazy.
- [50:13]
Charlamagne Tha God
They were illegal back then, back in that day. And it's like, I got that tattoo because I always liked Wolverine's loner mentality, but he could be a part of a team if he wanted to. And I liked his healing powers. And I always thought to myself, like, man, that would be so cool. Like, I know Wolverine's healing powers are physical, but it would be so cool if just, like, emotionally and mentally, you could just heal from everything that bothered you. And I conditioned myself when I was very young to just not let things out of my control bother me. And you know the serenity prayer, right? Like, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Like, I always felt like I just stay focused. Whatever bad is happening to me in my life in this moment was just part of a process. Right? That process is just helping me become who I'm Supposed to be. I've always kind of had that mentality of, like, things aren't as bad as they seem to be, or things aren't happening to you, they're happening for you. Like, I've always bought into all of that. So when you say I'm just cool as a cucumber, it's like, whatever's going on in that moment, I'm gonna deal with it. Now, I might break down when I'm alone, Right? You know, whatever's happening to me in that moment, I'm gonna deal with it, man. When I was young, my anxiety used to be so bad that I would go hide in the woods for no reason.
- [51:32]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I guess not for no reason, but yeah. To be alone, right? To get away from stress.
- [51:35]
Charlamagne Tha God
I would just be having these panic attacks. I didn't know what they were. I didn't know what a panic attack was until 2010, and I had gotten fired from radio for the fourth time. I was back living at home with my mother in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. I was like, 31, 32. My daughter was, like, 1 or 2 years old, and I was collecting unemployment checks. Oh, damn. And I was driving down I26 in South Carolina, and you just get that feeling. Everything Eminem rapped about on Lose Yourself. Palms are sweaty, knees, weak arms, spaghetti. Like, you know, and then you got that crazy heartbeat, and you, like, you taking deep breaths. You're pulling over to the gas station, drink water. You're like, God, if I'm, you know, about to have a heart attack, please just let me get to the hospital. And so you go to the doctor. And the doctor told me the same thing he's always told me, like, your heart is fine. You got an athlete's heart. He literally said that to me. You got an athlete's heart. But then he said to me, he was like, you suffer from anxiety. I'm like, what is that? And he's like, anxiety? It sounds like what you were describing was a panic attack. I'm like, I don't know what that is. And he was like, are you stressed out about anything? I'm like, hell, yeah. What you talking about? I'm back living at home with my mom, and I got fired four times. You know, I'm collecting unemployment checks. I don't know what I'm gonna do next with my life. I was up here in New York working with Wendy Williams, and I had my own morning show in Philly. Now I'm back at home living with my mom. So I didn't know what was going on in my life at the time. So in my mind I'm like, okay, so all I gotta do is get another job, get back in position. Everything will be fine. Breakfast club comes December 2010. We start breakfast Club later that year. Literally the last week, I collect an unemployment check. I start on Breakfast Clubs next week. Literally. I had a year of unemployment because I've been fired four times and I had too much pride. My ego wouldn't allow me to go down to the unemployment office.
- [53:19]
Jordan Harbinger
I see.
- [53:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
So when I ended up getting fired for that fourth time, I had all of these years of back pay that I was able to get. So I was getting like, I was getting like $1,100 a week for like a whole, whole year. And literally that last week, I ended up on Breakfast Club the next week. But fast forward from 2010 to 2016. I'm having more success that I've ever experienced in my whole life. More money than I've ever made in my whole life. And guess what? I'm not happy. Guess what? The bouts of depression are still there. So it turns out the money didn't fix any of that. Turns out this success didn't fix any of that. Right. I had to do a lot of internal work. I just didn't like who I was. I didn't like who I was. I had a lot of unhealed trauma that I didn't deal with. I was becoming my father. And I love my father. I'm not sitting here acting like I don't love my father, but I. My father had a lot of bad habits and he had a lot of things that I didn't like, especially the way he treated my mom in regards to infidelity. And I was becoming that. I'm the hip hop radio star, Right? I remember there was a superstar comedian who shall remain nameless who told me one time that all superheroes one day test out their superpowers because you've never been this version of yourself.
- [54:27]
Jordan Harbinger
I see.
- [54:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
So I never had been that version of Charlamagne who's getting write ups in Rolling Stone magazine, who's making appearances on television. You got a New York Times bestselling book. It's like, okay, I had never been that version of myself. You partaking in the lifestyle in a lot of ways. And I knew that lifestyle was ultimately going to cause me to lose my marriage and cause me to lose the greatest things to me, which is my wife and my kids. So I had to go do some internal work as a man to say I Don't want to be that. And whatever it cost me in the future, meaning, like, you know, whatever this new version of me that I pray emerges from this work that I'm gonna do, whatever it cost me, I'm willing to let it go. And that's exactly what I did. I went out there and I did that work. And, you know, there was a lot of people who didn't like the change. They didn't like this new version. They didn't like me talking about therapy all the time. They still don't. In a lot of ways. They don't really. Yeah.
- [55:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Who complains about it? I mean, not your friends.
- [55:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
Nobody that matters.
- [55:25]
Jordan Harbinger
Nobody that matters.
- [55:26]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Nobody that matters. Because what I'm doing now is actually my life's work. What I'm doing now actually gives me purpose, you know? And now I know why I got this Wolverine tattoo on my arm when I was 18 years old. Now I know why I loved Wolverine's healing power. Because. And Wolverine is holding a microphone in his hand on my arm as well, too. So it's because I thought I was going to make it being a rapper.
- [55:49]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, I thought maybe you added it later, like, all right, take the cross, turn into a mic.
- [55:52]
Charlamagne Tha God
No, I got Wolverine holding a mic because I thought I was going to make it as a rapper. Because when you young and, you know, you growing up in the environment that I grew up in, the people you saw that was successful, especially when you black, were usually in entertainment or athletics. So I thought I was gonna be a rapper. Cause that's how everybody was getting out of the hood at that point. And so I got Wolverine holding a mic in his hand. But turned out it was these kind of microphones that I'm talking into now that changed my life. Not rap. Cause I sucked. And then the healing power was I put myself on a healing journey, started talking about that healing journey, which allowed other people to feel free enough to go on their own healing journeys as well. So I feel like my life work now, especially with my organization, my nonprofit, the Mental Wealth Alliance. My job is to help people, especially black people, Black men in particular, get on their healing journey so we can show up and be the best versions of ourselves for our wives and our sisters and our daughters and our friends and family and just our communities, Period.
- [56:47]
Ryan Reynolds
Now for a word from our sponsors, including Kanye's Nazi T shirt Emporium. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by the Defender. You ever meet somebody and instantly know they've been places that calm and chaos. I've driven through a storm and found the sunrise kind of energy that's the Defender in vehicle form. It's not just a car, it's a statement, a nod to the ones who don't wait around for life to hand them an adventure. They go and get it. And whether you're a seasoned trailblazer or just figuring out how to swap city limits for treelines, the Defender is built to back you up. It's capable of great things just like you. It's a celebration of grit, curiosity and pushing past the usual. So if you've been waiting for a sign to finally take that trip, forge.
- [57:25]
Jordan Harbinger
That new path, or just see what.
- [57:26]
Ryan Reynolds
You'Re made of, this is it. The Defenders Ready when you are. To learn more, visit destinationdefenderusa.com this episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. A while back, Jen and I decided to become Airbnb hosts. Not just guests, but full on hosts. And hosting actually ended up being a really cool, surprisingly meaningful experience. We actually designed our home in the Silicon Valley Bay area with a separate guest suite and private entrance. And that idea came from staying in so many great Airbnbs ourselves and thinking, hey, we could do this too, maybe do it even better. And we didn't go over the top with it, but we made it comfy and added thoughtful little touches. Stuff we'd want if we were staying there. Like a little snacks, a couple bottles of water, sometimes even sample products from our show sponsors, which is kind of funny. We also left a local guide with our favorite coffee shops, noodle spots, hidden gem pizza place, you know, stuff you're not going to find on TripAdvisor or whatever. One of the best parts of hosting is honestly the people. We've had amazing guests over the years. One woman came from China on a long term contract job. She was so sweet, super respectful. Later even helped us track down some stuff we wanted from China. So kind of a cool global connection there. If you've ever thought about hosting, I say try it. Find out more@airbnb.com Host this episode is sponsored in part by Audible. People always ask me how I managed.
- [58:37]
Jordan Harbinger
To get through so much content, especially since I prep for every interview. I'm talking two to three books a week and it's all thanks to Audible.
- [58:43]
Ryan Reynolds
I've got Audible in my ears while.
- [58:45]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm getting my 10,000 steps in running errands, even doing stuff around the house, I don't mess with physical books anymore at all. Audible's just way more efficient. I listen on two or even 3x speed, which lets me cover a lot of ground without sacrificing quality. Right now I'm listening to Good Inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy.
- [59:00]
Ryan Reynolds
She's got this really down to earth.
- [59:01]
Jordan Harbinger
Way of talking about parenting that is not preachy.
- [59:04]
Ryan Reynolds
And here's what a lot of people don't realize. Audible is not just audiobooks anymore.
- [59:07]
Jordan Harbinger
You get access to thousands of titles with your membership, podcasts, Audible originals, and.
- [59:12]
Ryan Reynolds
Cool stuff like their Words and music series where artists tell their stories in their own words. The variety makes the membership way more valuable, so you never run out of great stuff to check out.
- [59:19]
Jordan Harbinger
One day I'm deep in a parenting guide, the next it's a podcast or a spy thriller. So whether into suspense, self development, or you just want to make traffic suck.
- [59:26]
Ryan Reynolds
Less, Audible's got you covered.
- [59:28]
Audible Advertisement
Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now, free for 30 days, and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com jhs or text jhs to 500 500. That's audible.com jhs or text JHS to 500 500.
- [59:45]
Ryan Reynolds
If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make the show possible. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code. Email me jordanordanharbinger.com we're happy to surface codes for you. Yeah, it's that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Charlamagne Tha God.
- [60:14]
Jordan Harbinger
Remember you said multiple times to me in different conversations that mental health is not prioritized, is de prioritized in the black community. Like you've told me that a hundred times and you've said in this I love this line. You said, I knew I had to deal with my trauma or my trauma would deal with me. And I'm wondering how you see that show up with people, the trauma dealing with them, maybe even especially in the black community.
- [60:36]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's all we're dealing with. Like we talked about Kanye at the beginning of this.
- [60:39]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh yeah, that's right.
- [60:40]
Charlamagne Tha God
All he's doing is trauma dumping.
- [60:42]
Jordan Harbinger
That's true.
- [60:42]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's all people do. People project their pain onto others. Hurt people, hurt people, healed people help Other people heal. Like, it's really just that simple. Like I can be having a conversation with somebody, black, white, green, Puerto Rican, Asian, whatever it is, I can be having a conversation with them and know, oh, this don't got nothing to do with me. This person is just projecting all of their bullshit and all their unhealed trauma that they haven't dealt with onto me. I can hear a person talking through their wounds. I can hear people talking through the, the filter of their unhealed trauma. In those moments you really gotta be real with a person and tell em, man, brother, I hope you heal. Because this don't got nothing to do with me. And I'm the person that'll tell them that. Like, look, I know that this don't have nothing to do with me. So whatever it is that you're going through, whatever it is that you're dealing with, I really hope you heal from it because I don't think it's fair to go around projecting your bullshit onto other people. And some people don't even know that they're dealing with bs.
- [61:38]
Jordan Harbinger
They really don't know that's pushed way down.
- [61:40]
Charlamagne Tha God
They've suppressed it so much. There was so many things that I was dealing with that I didn't know I was dealing with. I thought it was just anxiety and bouts of depression. But then you go to therapy and you start peeling back all them layers and you like, oh, I thought I loved my dad. I hate him, you know what I mean? But no, I actually really don't hate him. I just hate that he used to discipline me for things that he never taught me. I hate that we didn't necessarily have the relationship that I wanted growing up. But it's because he had his own issues. And that was the beauty of me starting to tell my story. Because when I started to tell my story, it helped other people to tell their story. And that's why I always say, in order to eradicate the stigma around mental health, everybody got to tell their story. 2018, man, week of Thanksgiving, I'm home in Moss Corner, South Carolina. My dad calls me, he just read my second book, which was called shook one anxiety playing tricks on Me, which is literally just everything I was learning about myself in therapy. And I got clinical correlations from my man, Dr. Ish Major in there to talk about those experiences, to give the clinical aspect of those experiences I'm talking about. My dad says to me, yo, I read your book. And it was the same week that my cousin who used to do a lot of odd jobs with my dad completed suicide. And so he was like, yo, your cousin completed suicide. And I read your book. I just want you to know that I was going to therapy two and three times a week and I was on 10 to 12 different medications throughout my life. And I tried to commit suicide 30 plus years ago, but I didn't because of you and your older sister. And I'm like, damn. And so that allowed me to give my dad so much grace. Cause I'm like, yo, he's just a man who was dealing with his own issues and he was just trying to figure it out as well. So he couldn't necessarily be the father for me that he wanted to be because he wasn't even being the man that he needed to be for himself. Himself. That allowed me to give him so much grace, man. And I have not thought anything negative about him since then. What I want to do, and I pray that I get to do this before, you know, either one of us transition. Because you never know nowadays is I just want to have that relationship and I want to learn more about my parents. Because your parents had a life before they were your parents. And like me and my dad just had a good conversation a couple weeks ago and I just learned so much and it helped me connect certain dots that's going on in my life. Because I'm like, oh, that's why I like this place. Or that's why I gravitate towards these people. Because this is kind of like things my dad passed on. Ancestry. Right. But I didn't realize, you know, that's.
- [64:07]
Jordan Harbinger
A huge awareness, especially getting that awareness for yourself and then having your own kids and break the cycle and don't pass that stuff along to your own kids.
- [64:14]
Charlamagne Tha God
If you can pass on generational trauma, then you should definitely be able to pass on generational blessings.
- [64:18]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, you would hope so. You mentioned this a little bit. You touched on this a little bit earlier. One of the first kinds of small talk you mentioned in the book is you mention hip hop rappers talking about gangster stuff that they would never do in real life. What do you think of the influence on young guys and young girls actually that the hip hop community has? Because from an outside perspective it does seem dangerous to have role models that are like violence, drugs, crime, hoes and bitches. And you're just like, I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it. But I'm like, I don't know, I wouldn't want that to be my kids role model.
- [64:46]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't think you're Overthinking it. But, you know, it is nuanced. That's why, you know, in the. In the chapter, you know, I talk about it, and I end every chapter by saying, let's discuss. Because I want to just open up the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying I'm wrong. Let's just open up the conversation. And so I think it is something to question. But I will say for every negative influence that hip hop has given me, it's given me the positive influence as well. But how many people are open to that level of balance? How many people even get to that point where they get to an age where they're mature enough and emotionally intelligent enough to understand the nuances of what gangster rap is like? Don't get me wrong, there's some of it that's just. There is no socially redeeming value to it. It is kill you, your mama, you know, Rob, your granddad. It is really that, right? We do celebrate the drug culture, and, you know, we do glorify the gang culture and a lot of the music. But, man, I think that people really are attracted to the entrepreneurial aspect of hip hop. And like I said earlier, when you are growing up in a certain environment, the only way out the hood, it feels, is to express yourself on these microphones. Like, that is a talent that a large generation of people had and they expressed it, and some great music did come out of it. But I think it is a fair conversation to have about, is this a lifestyle or a death style? And I think that in a lot of ways, if you're being honest, you gotta say a lot of it is a death style. But there's rappers that have influenced me so positively, whether it's the Chuck D's or the killer mikes, the Wu Tang clans, you know what I mean? Even the people that you think are gangster, like the Ti's and the Jeezies, if you actually listen to their records, these guys come from certain environments, and the art reflects the reality of their environment. That's what they say. Art reflects life. So you can't be mad at these individuals for talking about the things that are going on in their community. The problem I have with it is when you have these people who see the gangsters profiting, right? I see people profiting off of a life that they really did live, an environment they really did come from. But if you listen to their music, they're not necessarily glorifying it. They're just telling you what happened, and they're also telling you the consequences of it. That's why Jay Z was so dope. Jay Z had a song, you know, it was all good, just a rica go. You know, one week you balling, next week you getting hit with a RICO charge. Because those are the consequences of that lifestyle. People that paint that whole picture in its totality. Those are the great artists, the ones who are just trauma dumping, and not even trauma dumping, because they didn't even really live that shit. They're just doing it because it's profitable and they see it working for somebody else. So they're just making these murder, murder, kill, kill, slang, dope records. But you never actually did that. You're just doing that because it's the hot thing to do at the moment. Those are the people that I feel like we gotta weed out of this culture.
- [67:31]
Jordan Harbinger
That's the Vanilla Ice method.
- [67:32]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, absolutely.
- [67:33]
Jordan Harbinger
I love what you said about the lack of preparation in podcasting. Most hosts, they don't prep at all. And it drives me nuts. It creates noise. It's something we have a lot of already. I love the upside of podcasting, though, man. No gatekeepers. You talk in one of your early books, put yourself on podcasting is like the peak of that. But it's sort of easy for me to say because you and I, we rise above the noise a little bit. We're not trying to start something right now. But I love that you said that, because I almost feel like podcasters get rewarded for not prepping and just saying the dumbest shit that comes into their brain.
- [68:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, that's awful. Once again, it goes back to what is the consumer doing? Like when I talked about earlier about how you got to go out of your way to make sure you're watching the whole context of something. It's the same thing with what you choose to consume and share. Because somebody can get on a podcast and white women are better than black women, or black women are better than women, whatever it is. And people will just take that clip and throw it online. And I say this all the time. There is an economy that has been created, and that economy is engagement through enragement. So people literally make money off you being enraged. They know that shit is stupid, but they don't care. They just want to get y' all going back and forth, arguing with each other, debating with each other online, spending two or three days discussing or debating something that don't even make no motherfucking sense. Yeah, they know that. Those are the type of podcasters I don't necessarily like. I Like podcasters who I listen to and actually learn something, or I'm just extremely entertained. And the people who are the great ones are the ones that can do both. I love listening to the weekly show with Jon Stewart.
- [69:13]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
- [69:14]
Charlamagne Tha God
I love listening to podcasts, like the 85 South show, you know, I love listening to, like, the Pivot, you know, podcast with Ryan Clark and Fred. No, oh, wait, it's two pivots. You're talking about one with K. You're talking about Kara Swisher.
- [69:26]
Jordan Harbinger
I was a little surprised. I was like, Kara Swisher fans.
- [69:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
I like Kara Tudo. I've been on. I've been on that part. I like Karen Scott, but I was talking about Ryan Clark and Fred Taylor and Channing Crowder. Only because these people are entertaining. But also the things they talk about have so much socially redeeming value. You know, like, you're going to be intellectually stimulated, like my guy, Andrew Schultz with flagrant. Like him and Akash and. And Mark Gaganon and Aaron. They're funny. But, yo, they can sit there and kick it with Pete Buttigieg for two and a half hours, and it can be some really good gyms in there. You know, they can sit there with Trump for a couple hours and it's entertaining. But it's also some gyms in there because they're challenging Trump, you know, but you gotta watch the whole interview to know that, you know, you just watch the clips, you think they're laughing and joking, but if you watch the interview, you like, they are challenging Trump on some things. Yeah. The beauty of podcasting is the people who take it serious. And I do think that there's gotta be some guidelines. Jordan, I'm a guy who has to deal with FCC rules and regulations every morning. I feel like with the way the podcasting industry is, everybody else should have to deal with that, too. YouTube should have to deal with that. If YouTube is going to be operating as some sort of news network, because there actually are news networks on there now, whether it's the Midas Touch, whether it's the Young Turks, whether it's the pbd, these people are operating as news networks.
- [70:38]
Jordan Harbinger
They are.
- [70:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. They should have to deal with the same FCC rules and regulations that we do.
- [70:42]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I tend to agree. I mean, I know we have to do it when we do ads, you know, we can't pretend that we didn't get money for showing, but I love free speech. But telling people blatant falsehoods to piss them off and make them make let's say a bad medical decision is just beyond the pale, is bad for society. We mentioned Ryan Holiday, who's a good friend of mine.
- [70:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
Love Ryan.
- [70:59]
Jordan Harbinger
Love that guy. Super smart dude and a good person. You've had some large personal ego battles, and you touched on this a little bit before, but you mentioned a concept called ego strength that I'd love to discuss. Tell me what that is.
- [71:11]
Charlamagne Tha God
Ego strength is when you have to lean into your ego for good. Like, ego can be good, ego can be bad, but sometimes you have to have just a tad bit of the right ego. I think ego is a problem when it's a wounded ego. I think what we see a lot of times when I hate to go back to Kanye, but I think a lot of that is wounded ego. I think that, you know, the ego that was good. Like when you read Ego is the Enemy, the thing I like about Ego is the Enemy. Ego is the Enemy is broken up into three parts. It's that level of ego that fuels your confidence, that lets you know you have a talent. And you feel like that talent can help you get to that next level of life. Nobody can tell you that you're not talented. Nobody can tell you that what you're doing isn't the right thing to do. You just believe in yourself that much, that good ego propels you to that next level, which helps you to get success. But when you go from the ambitious part, that's the first part, to the success part, that's when you really start to see what kind of demon ego can be. Especially if you have a wounded ego. Especially if you've got a lot of trauma that you haven't dealt with. Because success, money doesn't change you. It just amplifies whatever you are.
- [72:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Who you are already.
- [72:27]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. Scary. So if you already are hurt more, you just gonna be more of a hurt mother. Right. And so then if you don't deal with that ego, if you don't read books like Ryan Holiday, ego is the enemy. And you don't learn from other people whose ego has destroyed them, that talent will take you where your character can't sustain you. And then that's when the third part comes, Right. It's ambition, success, and then it's the failure, because the failure can come because you didn't get your ego tamed, because you didn't heal the wounds that exist in that ego. And that is what causes people to ultimately crash and burn.
- [73:04]
Jordan Harbinger
It's tough, and I can relate. You ever still get imposter syndrome?
- [73:08]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't anymore.
- [73:09]
Jordan Harbinger
No.
- [73:09]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I'll tell you, when I got to a place of worby, I got to a place of worvy. December of 2021.
- [73:17]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow. Okay, so 11 years after the Breakfast Club starts.
- [73:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. Might have been even December of 2022, but I remember exactly where I was. I was sitting in a chair in my old house, and I was sitting upstairs, and I literally just got hit with worthiness. I literally got hit with a sense of worthy, and a sense of worthy is something that I haven't been dealing with for a long time because of imposter syndrome. I had a great conversation with Bishop T.D. jakes one time, and it's public, so I don't mind saying it. And he said to me, even if you don't think you're worthy, just know that God knows your worth. And then we have some other conversations, you know, around imposter syndrome and why some of us have imposter syndrome. It literally just hit me in that moment. I'm like, yo, thank you, God. I'm in this position that I'm in because this is the position that God wants me to be in and not just even professionally. I am a husband to this beautiful wife and a father to these beautiful kids, because God feels like I'm worthy to be that for them. It just all clicked for me in that moment. And I have not dealt with imposter syndrome since then. But also, it's because I also feel like I'm walking in my purpose, too, Jordan. I'm walking in my purpose. Like, I'm not just doing radio and doing TV and the podcast and the books and getting into the film world just for my own ego. Like, I'm really of service. I really, truly feel like that. I feel like, you know, the work I do with the Mental Welf alliance are when I'm able to provide scholarships for HBCU students. I'm able to provide jobs because, you know, me and my wife invested in crystals franchises like Our. But what's that? The hamburger spot down south?
- [74:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, okay.
- [74:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
Okay. Yeah, yeah, I think I've seen that. So. But it's not even just that. It's like the Black Effect Podcast Network, you know, the company me and Kevin Hart have. We're able to employ people and provide jobs. So not only am I doing what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing, walking in my purpose, helping people heal, because I'm telling my story about healing, but also I'm able to provide opportunity and jobs for folks who may not necessarily get those opportunities anywhere else. So I feel like I'm really walking in my purpose and I'm doing exactly what God wants me to do. So therefore, I don't have no imposter syndrome from that, because I'm doing what I know God wants me to do. So if you're in the place that God wants you to be, how could you ever feel like. Like an imposter, man?
- [75:35]
Jordan Harbinger
Thank you for being so open, Joy.
- [75:37]
Charlamagne Tha God
Thank you, brother. I always. I love doing this pod man. We can't go so long without doing it.
- [75:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I appreciate that. I love that. I think it's admirable. You wear a lot of this stuff on your sleeve and you're open about it. It'd be easier for you in some ways if you hit it all. But you don't choose that easy road because I think, you know that the best road is the one that you're taking, like, the most appropriate one.
- [75:56]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I'm too dumb to hide it. Yeah, I get that. That's just the reality of the situation. I'm too dumb to cover it up. I don't have. What else would I have to talk about?
- [76:04]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah.
- [76:05]
Charlamagne Tha God
Thank you, Jordan. Thank you.
- [76:08]
Ryan Reynolds
Here's a trailer of our interview with Moby, iconic musician and producer. This was a super real conversation about creativity, fame, mental health, money, and what really makes people happy and fulfilled. Moby was really open with this one. And even if you're not a fan.
- [76:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Of the music, I guarantee you will dig this episode.
- [76:26]
Moby
I grew up in arguably the wealthiest town in the United States, Daria, Connecticut. But my mom and I were on food stamps and welfare. My first punk rock show was to an audience of one dog. And my first electronic music show was to Miles Davis.
- [76:41]
Jordan Harbinger
I wanted to stop the show and patiently explain to the movie stars and the beautiful people that they'd made a mistake. They were celebrating me, but I was a nothing. I was a kid from Connecticut who wore secondhand clothes in the front seat of his mom's car while she cried and tried to figure out where she could borrow money to buy groceries. Now. Now it was 1999. I was an insecure. Has been. But we kept playing and the celebrities kept dancing and cheering.
- [77:03]
Moby
The weird thing is, things started to go wrong when I stopped feeling that way. 1999. I thought that my career had ended. Yeah, My mom had died of cancer. I was battling substance abuse problems. I was battling panic attacks. I'd lost my record deal, and I was making this one less. I was like, okay, I'll make this album. I'll put it out. I'll move back to Connecticut. I'll get a job teaching philosophy at some community college. And then all of a sudden the world embraced me. I handled fame and wealth really disastrously. It was so humiliating. I wouldn't trade any of it for.
- [77:45]
Ryan Reynolds
More from Moby, including how he bounced back from a 400 drink per month booze habit. Check out episode 196 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I always love talking to Charlamagne. This is like his third time on the show. Smart dude, deep thinker and funny. And I think y' all probably noticed that by now. There was something he said offline after the show that I thought was quite insightful. He said, when you're poor and you're living at home and you aren't on an upward trajectory, you have a reason to be depressed that you can point to. But if you think you have it all and you're supposed to be happy, like you're wealthy and you're to supposed famous or whatever it is, but then you're still not happy, that is a lot more alarming and you can't heal what you don't reveal. So he's a big, big proponent of therapy. As you know. Better Help's one of our main sponsors. Betterhelp.com Jordan so if you are looking to reveal things so you can heal him, definitely support the sponsors that support the show, including BetterHelp. All things Charlamagne. The God will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com advertisers, deals and discount codes. Ways to support the show. All@jordanharbinger.com deals Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also our newsletter, we Bit Wiser is very practical, very specific, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions and psychology, your relationships in under two minutes. We write it almost every Wednesday. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. A lot of you hit reply and talk to me. I really enjoy that. Jordanharbinger.com news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. Over at sixminutenetworking.com I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and this show has created an association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tata Sidlauskas, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others the fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's interested in the topics we discuss here today, success, career, connecting more deeply, getting rid of small talk, definitely share this episode with them. Or maybe they're just a Charlemagne fan, go ahead and share it. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.