1170: Gareth Gore | This Vatican Cult Corrupts Courts and Sells Slaves

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show - Episode 1170: Gareth Gore | This Vatican Cult Corrupts Courts and Sells Slaves

Host: Jordan Harbinger
Guest: Gareth Gore
Release Date: June 17, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show, investigative journalist Gareth Gore delves deep into the shadowy world of Opus Dei—a century-old Catholic organization accused of systemic corruption, human trafficking, and undue influence over political and judicial institutions worldwide. Gareth Gore shares his harrowing journey of uncovering the dark underbelly of what many perceive as a devout religious group, revealing startling connections between Opus Dei, major financial collapses, and high-ranking government officials.

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I. Introduction

Jordan Harbinger sets the stage by introducing Gareth Gore and the primary focus of the episode: exposing Opus Dei's alleged corruption and its pervasive influence within the Catholic Church and global institutions.

II. The Rabbit Hole: Discovering Opus Dei [04:32]

Gareth Gore recounts how his investigation began unexpectedly during the collapse of Banco Popular, a major Spanish bank. Initially dismissing the idea as a far-fetched conspiracy, Gareth admits that his skepticism faded as he uncovered substantial evidence linking Opus Dei to the bank's downfall.

Gareth Gore [04:32]: "I began to dig and I basically fell into this rabbit hole, which I almost feel like I'm yet to emerge from."

III. Background on Opus Dei [12:15]

Gareth provides an overview of Opus Dei's origins, founded by Jose Maria Escriva in 1928. Originally intended to offer ordinary Catholics a deeper spiritual experience, Opus Dei evolved into a covert organization with ambitious plans to influence various societal sectors.

Gareth Gore [12:15]: "Opus Dei kind of means the work of God... he invented this new organization, which was for ordinary Catholics, but allowed them to go deeper into their faith."

IV. Practices and Control Mechanisms within Opus Dei

Gareth exposes the rigorous and often abusive practices enforced within Opus Dei, including corporal mortification and strict daily routines designed to control members' lives.

• Corporal Mortification: Members engage in self-punishment to emulate Christ's suffering.

  Gareth Gore [16:03]: "Corporal mortification is something that Christians have done for hundreds of years, but it's kind of fallen out of practice."

• Daily Rigidity: Members adhere to a strict schedule encompassing prayer, work, and recruitment efforts.

  Gareth Gore [18:34]: "You're expected to live in an Opus Dei residence with a Plan of Life that dictates every aspect of your day."

V. Opus Dei’s Political and Economic Influence [29:22]

Delving into Opus Dei's strategic infiltration of financial institutions, Gareth details how the organization seized control of Banco Popular, leveraging its economic power to fund global operations and expand its influence.

Gareth Gore [29:22]: "They hijacked this bank. And that, alongside the victory of Franco, was a critical moment where they suddenly took this turn and the sky's the limit."

Gareth further discusses Leonard Leo's pivotal role in the U.S. Federalist Society, highlighting Opus Dei's significant impact on the Supreme Court's composition and decisions.

Gareth Gore [41:13]: "Leonard Leo... has been single-handedly most responsible for the kind of shift of the Supreme Court over the past 10 years."

VI. Global Operations and Accusations of Human Trafficking [35:45]

Opus Dei's expansion into international territories has been marred by allegations of human trafficking, particularly through their "hospitality schools" which purportedly exploit young girls from impoverished backgrounds.

Gareth Gore [36:47]: "The girls are... working 14 hours a day for no pay, 365 days a year. They are not allowed to go out on the street unaccompanied."

VII. Resistance and Response from the Catholic Church [48:33]

As Pope Francis began addressing abuses within Opus Dei through reforms and papal decrees, the organization resisted vigorously, leading to internal conflicts and attempts to undermine Vatican authority.

Gareth Gore [50:36]: "Within hours of the Pope dying, Opus Dei cancelled... they're like, maybe we don't have to do this anymore."

VIII. Media Representations and Public Perception [64:00]

The publication of Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code inadvertently heightened Opus Dei's notoriety. Rather than distancing themselves, Opus Dei capitalized on the publicity to recruit more members by presenting a polished public image.

Gareth Gore [64:00]: "They very successfully inserted this highly polished image of Opus Dei into the media."

IX. Challenges in Exposing Opus Dei [65:43]

Gareth shares the formidable obstacles he faced while bringing Opus Dei's alleged crimes to light, including aggressive defamation campaigns and widespread disinformation.

Gareth Gore [65:43]: "They issued all of these statements saying it was all conspiracy theories, it's all lies."

X. Conclusion and Future of Opus Dei [75:14]

Looking ahead, Gareth posits that Opus Dei is now primarily focused on survival amidst increasing scrutiny from the Vatican. Despite significant financial assets and a global network, the organization's future remains uncertain as internal reforms and external pressures mount.

Gareth Gore [75:14]: "Opus Dei right now is purely focused on survival... they've got hundreds of shell companies around the world."

Gareth emphasizes the importance of public awareness and vigilance in dismantling such covert organizations that wield disproportionate power over democratic and judicial institutions.

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Key Takeaways:

• Opus Dei's Dual Facade: While presenting itself as a devout Catholic organization, Opus Dei is accused of engaging in unethical practices, including human trafficking and financial corruption.

• Political Influence: Through strategic placements in influential bodies like the Federalist Society, Opus Dei has significantly impacted judicial decisions, undermining the impartiality of institutions like the U.S. Supreme Court.

• Resistance and Reform: Despite attempts by Pope Francis to reform Opus Dei, the organization has shown resilience, adapting its strategies to maintain its influence and operational continuity.

• Media Manipulation: Opus Dei adeptly uses media representations to its advantage, turning fictional portrayals into recruitment tools and enhancing its public image.

Notable Quotes:

• “Opus Dei's response has been stick its fingers in its ears and go, la la la la la la la. This guy's a liar.”
  — Gareth Gore [69:00]

• “These chats, which are supposedly just meant to be like almost like a therapy session... Opus De's collecting information and then using that information to work out what buttons it can press.”
  — Gareth Gore [45:52]

• “Opus Dei right now is purely focused on survival... they've got hundreds of shell companies around the world.”
  — Gareth Gore [75:14]

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This episode serves as a chilling exposé on how religious organizations can intertwine with political and economic systems to exert undue influence and perpetrate systemic abuses. Gareth Gore's in-depth investigation sheds light on the covert operations of Opus Dei, urging listeners to remain vigilant against similar power structures.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gareth Gore]

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[Unknown Speaker]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger.

[Gareth Gore]

Show, most normal organizations, when confronted with like super serious allegations of like, human trafficking, grooming of kids, drugging your own members, spiritual abuse, breaking the seal of confession, they would come out and they would say, these are really serious allegations. We are going to take them very seriously. We're going to investigate them, get to the bottom of them, and if anyone needs to be brought to justice, we'll ensure that's done. Opus Dei's response has been stick its fingers in its ears and go, la la la la la la la. This guy's a liar. This guy's a liar. And I think that's really quite telling. This is an organization that has zero intentions of addressing its failures and addressing abuse inside of its ranks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of Amazing folks. From spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional national security advisor. Real life pirate or special operator. And if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, and of course I appreciate it when you do that, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, we're talking about a cult. A century plus old cult that permeates the Catholic Church, involves legislators, bankers, even justices of the Supreme Court right here in the United States. It's called Opus dei and if you've seen the Da Vinci Code, you have a bit of an introduction to it, maybe a little fictionalized introduction to it. The truth of this cult, actually, I find even stranger than the book and the movie, albeit without the murderous albino monk. Here to unwind all the craziness is investigative journalist Gareth Gore, who started investigating the downfall of a major bank and found the insanely strange rabbit hole that we're discussing here today. Alright, here we go with Gareth Gore.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thanks for coming down here, man. Tyx Studios hooking up. This place is, it's. Well, first of all, one of the nicest studios in London. But thanks for coming on down. I know we tried to do this before. I have to say, when you first pitched me this, and I'm sure that I'm not the first person to give you this reaction, I thought, okay, what kind of Looney Tune QAnon Conspiracy theory Nonsense is this? Because it just, it actually sounds too insane. And then I obviously, as our conversation continued, I realized, oh, okay, this guy brought receipts. This is not like a weird Internet meme conspiracy thing. This is a historical cult that has just not been put in check. For how long? 100 years?

[Gareth Gore]

Almost 100 years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's shocking.

[Unknown Speaker]

I read the whole book.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If I didn't read the book, I.

[Unknown Speaker]

Still probably wouldn't actually believe you. So hopefully the audience comes along for the ride here because it is one of those things where it's so ridiculous, you just think, how is this possible? What led you to investigate connections between this secretive group and the United States Supreme Court?

[Gareth Gore]

I mean, you're not alone in having that conclusion. I think even people that have been Inside Opus dei, still years later, trying to work out what the hell happened to the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, what happened.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes, exactly. But I mean, so I fell into this completely by accident. So I'm a financial reporter by background.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Gareth Gore]

And basically what happened was that in 2017, a huge bank in Spain just collapsed overnight. Which kind of, you know, in this day and age isn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

It can happen. I was there for the 2008 financial crisis. Banks collapsed.

[Gareth Gore]

Precisely. And in fact, up until that point, the previous 10 years, I'd spend a lot of time kind of traveling to Sweden, Germany, Russia, even reporting on bank failures and kind of reporting from the ground, trying to work out what happened. And at first it seemed like the same old story of like, you know, this bank, a bunch of guys, and they were almost all guys, had, you know, taken too many risks, allowed things to get out of control, and kind of were too embarrassed to admit to their mistakes. And so the whole thing crumbled into dust. It seemed like that was the story. And so I, and almost everyone else that reported this story wrote that and kind of moved on. But there was something about the story that kind of seemed a bit odd. For one, most of the shareholders that lost their money tried to sue, tried to get some of the money back, because, you know, literally those shares went from, I don't know, like €100 to zero overnight. And so they were like, what the hell? We want to get some of this back.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Gareth Gore]

So they were all suing. There were all these court cases. But the biggest shareholder of all this kind of group, which called itself the Syndicate.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not ominous at all.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. If you're gonna pick a name, then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, we wanna fly low key.

[Unknown Speaker]

So we're calling ourselves the Syndicate. But you have to say it with a low tone and look over your shoulder before you say it. I mean, that is actually. It's comically ridiculous.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. And like so many elements of this story, you almost have to pinch yourself and you're like, is this for real?

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Gareth Gore]

It's like Dr.

[Unknown Speaker]

Evil inventing this.

[Gareth Gore]

It's just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if you're trying to run your.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cult under the radar, you guys are blowing it.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. It's not the way to do it, but. So this group seemed to be. Whilst everyone else was suing, they seemed to be kind of intent, quietly disappearing. So that piqued my interest. And so I began to dig and I basically fell into this rabbit hole, which I almost feel like I'm yet to emerge, because every time I feel like I'm kind of crawling out, I'm done with the book or whatever. Something else drags me back in. Someone contacts me or whatever, and you're like, oh, my goodness.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's either Goodfellows or the Godfather, where the guy says, every time I try.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To get out, they suck me right back in.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's one of those Mafia movies. So the cult is called Opus dei. For people who are wondering what that is. Is it O, P U S D E I.

[Gareth Gore]

Two words, which is Latin for the work.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think the audience is going to either have never heard of them, or some people will go, wait, isn't that from the Da Vinci Code? And we'll get into that in a bit. So the book starts with the collapse of this bank. It's Banco Popular or Bank Banco Popular for us Americans out there. And this is not a small bank that just went under. It's not like they just had a couple locations or they were headquartered in Madrid. This is like a. I don't. I won't say it's the JP Morgan Chase, but it's a massive bank chain, right?

[Gareth Gore]

It was one of the top five banks in Spain. They had thousands of branches across the country. It was impossible to walk around a city like Madrid or Barcelona without seeing one of these branches. So, you know, every Spaniard knew this bank? Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

What happened if your money was in the bank when it collapsed?

[Gareth Gore]

So all the shareholders lost all of the money, Right? The bondholders, they lost billions, too. So the bank was kind of sold overnight in this kind of fire sale for parts. Basically for parts, it was sold for €1 to Banco Santander, which is one of the largest banks in the world, for one euro for one euro.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, fine.

[Gareth Gore]

So as part of that deal, they acquired all of the bank's kind of assets and debts. They also acquired. And this is key to the story, and we can get into this later. They also acquired the bank's old archives, which suddenly opened up this whole story to someone like me, who came knocking on the door asking to see the receipts.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm surprised that they were willing to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Show you that stuff.

[Gareth Gore]

I suspect I still haven't asked them why, but I suspect they didn't know what they were sitting on. I think it was literally that they'd acquired this warehouse full of papers. And they were like, well, that's. It's probably, like, really boring.

[Unknown Speaker]

If you want to waste your time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Going through that stuff, go right ahead.

[Unknown Speaker]

Don't expect us to supply the coffee.

[Gareth Gore]

This mess is not out. So even if he finds something, then it's not, you know, in the right. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They bought it for one euro, and.

[Unknown Speaker]

They basically probably what, saved the depositors who had their funds in there. So they're like, we're the hero of the story. That's not going to change if he finds something that the other thing did. It just makes us look better for having not dropped the ball on all these people's funds. That's true. So I assume there's smoke, there's fire. Right. So were there any shareholders that didn't lose money because they, I don't know, liquidated their shares a couple months prior, basically? Did anybody have a heads up that this was going to happen and bail?

[Gareth Gore]

I don't think so. I mean, it was kind of a slow train wreck.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

You know, these things often are. And so the funny thing is actually the Opus DEI foundations that were benefiting from the bank and which were semi controlling it, they basically put more and more money into the bank as it started to disintegrate, because for them, it had been their cash cow for so many years, and it had been such a core part of how the cult had kind of grown. It was the access to huge amounts, the golden goal of money. It was the golden goose for many years. And so I think they lost as much as everyone else because they were desperate not to lose control of this thing. And so they just kept putting in money right until the end.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, I see. So how did the bank collapse? Because don't you kind of have to be abusively negligent with funds in order to lose that kind of business?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, I mean, the bank was, like, massively overexposed to the whole real estate sector in Spain.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

Which collapsed from post 2008. There was just kind of a very slow collapse.

[Unknown Speaker]

Never recovered. Okay, I see, I see. So before we get into what you found in those bank records, because I'm. I'm going to guess it's not nothing, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Let's do a little bit of background on Opus Day, the cult. We don't have to get too in the weeds on the history of the people who started or whatever, but it sure sounds like it started, like you said, almost 100 years ago. And it kind of just sounded like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A labor trafficking organization, for lack of a better word.

[Gareth Gore]

Okay. So Opus DEI kind of means the work of God was dreamed up, I guess you might say, by this Spanish priest called Jose Maria Escrivar. He went on retreat in 1928, and whilst on retreat, he had this, what he called a vision. He said it Was directly from God.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

For this kind of new organization, these.

[Unknown Speaker]

Guys never make business plans. They just get downloads directly from God. Right. Just sit around and make something up yourself.

[Gareth Gore]

It's interesting. You kind of. You say that because it's impossible to know for sure, but my interpretation is. So he'd come from this family that had basically fallen from grace. They were a wealthy family whose father basically whose business went bankrupt. And so they'd known the good times. They had all these servants, and then suddenly they kind of hit rock bottom. The father died, and this guy, Jose Maria, as the eldest son, I think he felt this huge weight on his shoulders of having to kind of bring the family back up to its kind of proper status. So I think he really was on the hunt for a business idea.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds like it. And he maybe didn't have the acumen to start a proper business. So he's like a cult. Why not?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. And at one stage, he trained as a priest, which is not. It wasn't that abnormal for the oldest son at that stage in Spain. In fact, my partner's uncle, who's the eldest man in the family, he. He also trained as a priest. Not Elpus dei, but didn't join a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cult, but made a hard brain.

[Gareth Gore]

She was also from that. That part of Spain. So he went on this retreat, and he got this vision, and his idea was there was a gap in the market. So if you're a Catholic, you're either kind of an everyday Catholic. You go to mass every Sunday, you confess whenever you sin or whatever. You're either that, or if you want to go a bit deeper, you become a priest or a nun. And there was nothing in between. And he's like, you know what? There's a little niche here I could carve out for myself.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure.

[Gareth Gore]

And so what he did was he invented this new organization, which was for ordinary Catholics, but allowed them to go deeper into their faith.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is like, you're not the.

[Unknown Speaker]

People who go to the gym three times a week. You're not the people who become professional athletes. You're the people who want to go to the gym every single day. Maybe you're running a triathlon. It's like, we need those Catholics.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We want the ones who want to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because they have these rituals that are serious. And I want to talk about some of these. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves here. The recruiting process for this sounds a little bit like Scientology. It's like, hey, you don't need those pesky Friends and family that aren't into this as much as you, you got to hang out with us. We're the ones who are really heads down on this and the love bombing about how great it is and how you're doing. Like you said, God's work, or they named the thing God's work. Right. And it just starts to spread among. Was it students at first? Was that.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, students initially. Well, I mean, to begin with, he really struggled to get any recruits. I mean, he became so desperate at one stage that he went kind of to sit beside this dying woman to kind of give her the last rites or whatever, and he said to her, you know what? When you get upstairs, when you get to heaven, could you maybe, like, intercede? Could you maybe kind of send down a miracle for me to help me get some followers? At another stage, he almost quit the priesthood entirely because it just wasn't working out. In the first five years, he had something like eight followers or whatever. He was getting desperate.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. But then he's like the worst influencer ever. Imagine asking a dead person, like, I just have a quick favor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When you get up there, can you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just ask God to do me a solid? It's like, I'm going to be the new guy or the new gal. I don't know how much clout I'm going to have.

[Gareth Gore]

You know what? Maybe it works because, you know, they have almost 100,000 members these days. So maybe. Maybe that chat paid off. I'm not sure. But ask.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Got to give me the blue check mark.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's basically what he's asking for.

[Gareth Gore]

But he started to hone his methods, and he very quickly came up with this kind of blueprints for recruitment. It very quickly became very culty as well. He talked about how you should never target people as a group. You should try and pick them off one by one. Never go after someone who's older than 25. Because his belief was that once you hit 25, you began to ask too many questions. You became kind of set in your ways, and it was hard to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Your prefrontal cortex is developed, and you won't fall into this nonsense anymore.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. And also, like, he. He told the people that he targeted, he told them not to tell the friends or family that they were considering joining. And so, you know, there are all of these real kind of red flags for anyone on the outside.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe cults were kind of not as widespread as they are now.

[Gareth Gore]

In some ways, he was ahead of his time. I mean, in some ways, I've got to take My hat off to him and be like, wow. I mean, this is way before Hubbard and Scientology and the rest of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

And to be fair, the last cult that really took off was Christianity. I know that's going to ruffle some feathers, but look, we're talking about the year zero. It was, by all definitions, sort of a cult. It was just maybe a little bit less creepy.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Than Opus DEI or Scientology.

[Gareth Gore]

And so once he got these guys in, they were generally expected to live in an open day residence so that, you know, they could be watched and controlled 24 hours a day. And then they were given this thing that they call the plan of life, which is basically a schedule of prayer, mortification, and all kinds of other requirements.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so what's mortification? Because this is just one of the weird practices of the members. And I think people who've seen. Is it the Da Vinci Code movie.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

They show a little bit of that there, and it's decidedly creepy.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. And there are lots of things about the DaVinci Code which are completely nonsense.

[Unknown Speaker]

You don't say. Okay, so it's not a historically accurate movie.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Darn.

[Gareth Gore]

That's. That's. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thanks for coming in. Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

But some elements are true. And so the corporal modification. Okay, what is that? It basically means hurting yourself, punishing your body. Corporal mortification is something that Christians have done for hundreds of years, but it's kind of fallen out of practice.

[Unknown Speaker]

So mortification mortified now means embarrassed. But I suppose before it means like some sort of degradation, essentially. Yeah, Just like carrying the heavy wooden cross on your back kind of.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. It's bringing yourself closer to Christ by kind of feeling the pain, I guess, that he felt on the cross. And. Yeah, people do that in various different ways. The two ways, in Elper's day, there are two kind of primary methods. There are other smaller things, but the two main ones, they have these two devices. One is called the silis, which is like a barbed wire that you wear around a part of your body, normally the thigh. So you attach it to the thigh, and these kind of claws dig into your thigh. You wear it for like two hours a day.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's like a dog collar, one of those pinchy dog collars.

[Gareth Gore]

It's kind of like a chain. It's kind of like a. It's a wire.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like a spiky barbed wire chain with.

[Gareth Gore]

These spikes that kind of go onto the inside. So whenever you sit down, you wear this under your trousers or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, under your pants.

[Gareth Gore]

Whenever you sit down, it digs into your leg.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why would you sit down?

[Gareth Gore]

Why would you do anything?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, why would you put that thing on in the first place? Asking the real question.

[Gareth Gore]

But you can wear it around other parts of your body. So, for example, the founder of Opus dei, this guy called Escrivar, he was kind of obsessed with his weight, and so he wore this thing around his waist, possibly as punishment also for his kind of gluttonous habits.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cheers.

[Gareth Gore]

So one thing is to sillist this kind of chain. The other thing is called the discipline, which is basically a whip. Normally it's a rope, maybe three, four, five, six strands. And you take off your shirts, sometimes you take off your pants as well, and you whip yourself over your shoulder. The founder of Upper Stay took this to a whole new level. So he would attach razor blades to the end of the rope. So whenever he hit himself on the back, the razor blades would cut into his skin. And, you know, his followers would write about going to the room after he'd been doing this. And there'd be blood, like spattered.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, my gosh.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, Pretty.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's gnarly. It started out like something they do at Pride Parade in San Francisco and ended up like a Japanese horror movie. That's really gross, man.

[Gareth Gore]

It is really gross. And, you know, like, these practices go on today as well.

[Unknown Speaker]

So people are still whipping themselves with the cat of five tails or whatever this guy had.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. People are still doing this. In fact, there are different kinds of members of obviously. But if you're kind of one of the elite members, these so called numeries, you're expected to wear the silas for two hours every single day without fail. And you're meant to do the discipline once a week on Saturdays. So, yeah, it's kind of all part of the plan of life.

[Unknown Speaker]

You can't pick your own flogging methods.

[Gareth Gore]

I guess life is so prescribed. So, you know, you get up at a certain time every day. The first thing you do is you get out of bed. You're not allowed to kind of dawdle for even a second. It's called the heroic minute. You get out of bed, you kiss the floor, and the first word you say is serviam, which means I serve God.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so you're like a robot at this point.

[Gareth Gore]

You're kind of like a robot. And then you have a whole day of mass, you say like 15 different prayers. You've got these corporal mortification things to do. And you're also meant to go out to work and recruit people as well.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow. So they're super pious. But somehow they're also thieves that ended up bankrupting a bank. Somehow. I mean, is that a fair assessment at all?

[Gareth Gore]

Well, I mean, there's this whole culture inside of Opus dei, which is that you should do whatever's necessary to basically expand the movement and to. So Escrival called. He saw his followers as part of this kind of hidden militia that would infiltrate society and use their positions there to basically push society in the right direction.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's extra creepy, right? That's the part where it's like, you go from, hey, let people do what they want. If they're gonna be religious fanatics. We have religious freedom in this country. Let them do what they want. They're not hurting anybody but themselves. And then it's like, oh, actually, they're seeking to control. It's ironic because I'm guessing these are the same people that spread conspiracies about Jews controlling the world, and they're like, no, really, though. We're trying to do that.

[Gareth Gore]

Well, you know what? Escrival was something of a conspiracy theorist himself.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

And there was quite a big evolution. So initially, when it started out that the group was in the kind of late 20s, early 30s, like I said before, it was basically this kind of elite organization to help Catholics. Just to kind of go a bit deeper. Like, the backdrop here is super important because. So this is Spain, early 1930s, a country on the brink of civil war. Like, the workers have literally risen up, overthrown the monarchy, and they're beginning to turn their backs on things like the Church. So the Church, for centuries, had controlled large parts of society, not least education. And so people were like, what the hell? We don't want this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like you said, civil war.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sorry to interrupt. This is civil war. So that's like the Communists versus. Or am I too early for that?

[Gareth Gore]

I mean, there were some Communist elements, but it was more generally. I mean, it was kind of a coalition of the left. I mean, literally, the workers rose up and were like, we were sick of the old order. So they kicked out the monarchy.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

And the socialists and a coalition took over, and they started to unpick the Church's dominance over society. They secularized education, this kind of stuff, things which are quite common these days. So Esquivar sees what's happening around him, and he's absolutely horrified. And so he begins to transform this group that he's begun to grow. And his writings become really quite aggressive. He thinks there's a massive conspiracy going on. He thinks the Jews, the Communists, and the Masons are teaming up to, like, overthrow Christianity.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. Meanwhile, the Jews are just like, leave us alone. Yeah, come on.

[Gareth Gore]

No. And so he kind of rethinks the whole idea of obvious DEI and he turns it into basically a kind of a political organization. He sees his followers as this kind of militia, and he literally tasks them with infiltrating government business, the world of education, becoming journalists, and kind of using their positions there to be this kind of guerrilla reactionary force that will fight back against these conspiracy.

[Unknown Speaker]

But is it domestic only at this time, or are they trying to Christianize the whole planet?

[Gareth Gore]

He sees what's happening in Spain as part of this global battle. He calls it the rechristianisation of the world.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm guessing that kind of thing doesn't happen peacefully.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes, well, no. He talks about, you know, people fighting, and he very much sees it as a battle between his followers and what he calls the enemies of Christ. Anyone that isn't part of Opus DEI is an enemy of Christ. So, yes, at this stage, it's just in Spain, but in the 1940s, it begins to go international.

[Unknown Speaker]

What does the Pope think about all this at this point? Is this like, oh, okay, those are the hardcore Catholics, or is the. Do they. Are they secret and the Pope doesn't know about it at first?

[Gareth Gore]

They kind of not really on the Vatican's radar. Escrivar is expanding the kind of the organization diocese by diocese. So he goes into each diocese, which is kind of for non Catholics or just kind of a local area.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, like a county, but for Catholics.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, yeah, kind of, yeah. And he gets the bishop in charge there and says, hey, would you mind if we set up a residence? And we kind of, you know, we're doing good work here, you know, whatever. But some bishops are kind of a bit suspicious. So he decides at some stage, you know what? I need authorization from the Vatican itself, because then we can go anywhere and we don't have to ask permission. And in, I think it's 46, he gets permission from the Vatican to do his work wherever. And that kind of opens up the horizons. And very quickly they start to expand to Portugal, across Europe, and even to the States.

[Unknown Speaker]

So who's leading Spain at this time? Is this already the time of Franco, like a military dictator? Is that fair?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Escrivar, this supposedly deeply Christian guys, has absolutely no qualms about cozying up to this brutal dictator.

[Unknown Speaker]

To be fair, that was de rigueur for the. Wasn't the Vatican sort of turning a blind eye to the Holocaust during this period of time as well. It's not like the highest moral standing the Catholics ever had.

[Gareth Gore]

That's true. But I mean, actually, the victory of Franco in the Civil War is like a critical moment for the group. Before the war, you know, he had all these grand ideas, but he really struggled to recruit. He comes back into Madrid in, I think it's March 39. He literally rides into Madrid on the back of this military truck alongside all these Francoist troops. And he arrives in this city that's been absolutely decimated. Hunger is everywhere. You've got kids kind of like hunting through garbage piles, potato skins. They want something to eat. Women are selling their bodies because it's the only way to get money, get some food. You've got all these diseases that have not been seen since the medieval times kind of coming back. So here's a good Catholic, Christian priest. He arrives back and sees all this and what does he do? Does he go out and help the people? No, no. He sets about making money and expanding his business, this thing he calls a family business. And very quickly he starts cozying up to the regime, offering Opus DEI services. He basically offers to kind of go into team up with the regime. And he offers Opus DEI as a service to basically hunt out any kind of subversive groups out there in factories and on the farms, and to kind of help to kind of damp down any kind of political uprisings or whatever. He also sets up all of these residences and Franco, like, for people that don't know much about the Franco years, he was an absolutely brutal dictator. Even after the war. Obviously, both sides committed atrocities during the war, but during peacetime, after the ceasefire, he murdered tens of thousands of his political opponents. He pushed like hundreds of thousands of people into concentration camps. He was sending left wing people to the Nazis to be experimented on.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, wow.

[Gareth Gore]

And meanwhile, Escrivar, the founder of Opus dei, is offering Opus DEI services to help this guy. Escrivar is hosting private retreats for Franco and his wife at the palace outside of Madrid. You know, it's incredible just how much of a blind eye he turns, you know.

[Unknown Speaker]

So Franco's like a minor Hitler esque character in a way.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. And he actually wanted to. He really tried to cozy up to Hitler and offered him all kinds of things to help him. Hitler, I think, very much looked down on his hard time for this. Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Geez. My God, these are some despicable characters. So the new members of this cult, I assume eventually these students who are in Opus dei, they start to form companies and come of age and get the. Are they getting the jobs to have influence? And are they being placed now that they've sort of won the civil war and they're on the good side or the side, they're on Franco's good side, they're able to, I don't know, work in the government or something like that.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, no, totally. So what happens is that Escrivar's got this vision of his members need to infiltrate the kind of upper echelons of society in order to shape society. He's recruiting very much people from the elite, people from good families, people from money, people who've got great prospects, you know, tomorrow's leaders. He's recruiting them at university. And so like five, ten years after recruiting them, many of these people are really climbing up the ladder. By the 50s, a number of ministers in the kind of national government are members of Opus dei. And, you know, the Opus DEI network runs far and wide. Opus DEI itself has several businesses, but also many of its members are kind of deeply embedded into a really corrupt society as well. And so it's all through connection. So the closeness of Opus DEI to the regime means that a lot of its members and Opus DEI itself gets lots of favors. So they get like export deals, they get the nod to like open up this new business. And so it becomes very beneficial financially as well.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the revenue generating enterprise at this point, it's not just get the rich kids and they'll get their parents to send us money now it's we've got special sweetheart deals with the government because we're cozying up to the dictator.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's another sort of left turn into making this a little bit more evil. Right? It's like, okay, if you want to whip yourself, not, you know, we don't love it, but okay. And then it's like, no, we're trying to take over the world and we're going to do that by cozying up to this really crappy regime. And they're slowly getting more and more evil, kind of, from the sound of.

[Gareth Gore]

It, and slowly getting bigger and bigger. I mean, by the 50s, they were present in, I don't know, like something like 20 countries, including the States. They've expanded to Latin America, across Europe. They have thousands of members. And, you know, as this thing grows, the speed of expansion becomes greater because they've got more and more resources and so they can open more residences, more schools and whatever. So the recruitment method becomes much more kind of efficient.

[Unknown Speaker]

At what point do they go, hey, we need a bank. How does that come about?

[Gareth Gore]

By the early 50s, they had already had a pretty big network of companies in Spain. They had bookshops and publishers. They had, like, a film distribution company. So, like, you know, they were the equivalent of, like, minting kind of VHS cassettes kind of things, you know, for. I mean, it's kind of. But these were ways to make money. But I think they very quickly realized that there was a limit to how much this network of businesses could generate. And by getting their kind of hands on a bank, that would take them to a very different level, because suddenly you've got access to this massive pool of savings that all the depositors have put in there. Like, banks have balance sheets in the trillions of dollars.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

Of course, we're not talking that level of money back then in. In the 1950s, and certainly not in Spain. It took you from here to the ceiling. The way they got into the bank as well, it's kind of extraordinary. So I think it was the chief executive of the bank or the vice chairman or something. He found out about some dodgy deal that the chairman had done, and he, as a good Catholic, was like, this kind of is really eating at me. I need to, like, share this with someone. He was friends with someone from Opus dei, and so he decides to basically open up his heart to this Opus DEI guy, thinking that the Opus DEI guy, as another good Christian, he's going to just give him some kind of confidential advice, pat him on the back, tell him the moral thing to do. Instead, the Opus DEI goes back and informs all of his colleagues back at the center, and they come up with a plan to use this bit of information to oust the chairman and take control of the bank themselves.

[Unknown Speaker]

So it's like an intelligence network instead of a confession booth.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. And they hijacked this bank. And that alongside the victory of Franco, this is the other critical moment in open space history where they suddenly take this turn and the sky's the limit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know who's probably not involved in human trafficking? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and Nvidia. AI is everywhere now, from your inbox to your car, even how your coffee gets made. And businesses are scrambling to keep up. If you're not integrating AI into your systems, you're falling behind. Or at least that's the fear. Healthcare is no exception. In episode seven of the cybersecurity tapes, a major medical network fast tracks a generative AI system to streamline patient logistics.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers and creators every week, it is because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build your own cult. I mean network for free [e-mail] this course is about improving your relationship skills, inspiring other people to want to develop a good, positive relationship with you. It is non cringy it is down to earth. It does not involve slave labor, for better or for worse, just practical exercises that will make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer. In a few minutes a day is all it takes. And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again, it's all free [e-mail] now back to Gareth Gore.

[Unknown Speaker]

I know at some point it becomes about bringing in poor people from other countries or other parts of the country and kind of using them to serve the members. I mean, this is also sort of very. I hate to use the same example over and over. It's very Scientology, right? They do those audits on you where you have to confess things and they use it against you later. And they bring in kids from the Midwest and they basically say, oh, you're.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Going to go to Hollywood and hang.

[Unknown Speaker]

Out with Tom Cruise, and all you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have to do is work for free.

[Unknown Speaker]

Full time in our museum or whatever. I mean, it's very much a similar recipe, from the sound of it, honestly, I was going to say except for the religious thing, but Scientology has that, too.

[Gareth Gore]

The thing that makes this so much worse is that this is an organization which has been legitimized by the Catholic Church.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Gareth Gore]

It's an official part of the Catholic Church. It has the stamp of approval from the pope, from the Vatican.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

With Scientology, people are like, ah, just a minute. This is like just some crazy people. Yeah. I'm like, wait, aliens? What are you talking about?

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, right.

[Gareth Gore]

But with Opus dei, people, I think when they're first introduced to Opus dei, especially until recently when there wasn't much information about it, they just assume, well, there must be good, because they have the, you know, stamp of approval. So what they need, and I guess this is what you were alluding to, is they need workers because they need people to go out there and to find targets, to groom them and to parents to get them into the group. They have this kind of elite army, I would call them, of people called numeries. These are people who've taken. They're not quite vows, but they've basically promised their lives to Opus dei. They take these pledges of poverty, which means that they give all of their money to Opus dei. They take a pledge of chastity, which means that basically they're married to Opus dei, and they also. Which I guess is related to that, they take a pledge of Obedience. So whatever Opus DEI requires of them, they do it. This is the kind of core group, the Numeries, and they live in special, gender segregated Opus DEI residences. They have a director watching over them who tells them kind of what to do, who to target. And they're constantly under pressure to go out there and find recruits. So you have those guys, the kind of the key workers. But at one Stage in the 40s, the founder kind of realized that, I guess they were spending a lot of money on domestic servants at the residences. So they had all of these women who coming in to, like, cook and clean for the men. And normally it's gonna be men and women, but they always had these kind of servant girls who would come in. And he came up with this idea of, why don't we open up membership to these servants? But they weren't allowed to join on the same terms as the other numeries. So they kind of invented this new class, this underclass of membership called the numerary servants. And they were all women. That this is not a class opened up to men. And, you know, you were basically kind of. You would join as a servant. And in a way, it became a source of free labor for Opus dei, because once these servants became members, they were expected to hand over their paychecks back to Opus dei. So Opus DEI was paying them and then saying, you need to give that back to us. And at one stage, just didn't bother, because why bother? And the creation of this new subclass was the greatest gift that God had ever given to Opus dei. This goes on today, and soon there's going to be a trial in Argentina where Opus DEI has been formally accused of human trafficking.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that's what this is. It's slavery. It's not a gift from God. You're just enslaving people.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. And Opus DEI to this day operates this network of what it calls hospitality schools around the world.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, there's a euphemism.

[Gareth Gore]

There's a absolutely euphemism. And what they do is they go around to poor communities, they knock on the doors, they find young girls. They find girls who are like, 11, 12 years old.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, geez. Like, actually very young girls.

[Gareth Gore]

The kids, they find kids, and they say to the kids and the parents, hey, you know, like, around here, there are no prospects for your girl, but if you send her back to the big city with us, you know, over in Lagos or over in Buenos Aires or over in Mexico City, we run this amazing school where we teach the girls how to cook and Clean. And they work towards a qualification. It's a way to a better life for them. And so the girls and the parents, they're like, these guys are from the Catholic Church.

[Unknown Speaker]

How bad can it be?

[Gareth Gore]

How bad can it be? Well, yes. And the girls, only when they're kind of hundreds of miles away from their families do they perhaps realize what's happening. And they are manipulated, coerced, pushed into joining Gopus DEI as these numerary servants. It's a huge scandal and it's happening all over the world, across Latin America and Nigeria, the Philippines.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And to be clear, this is not.

[Unknown Speaker]

1950 where this is happening. This is still happening in 2025.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. So there's this trial that's about to happen in Argentina. Some women have recently come forward in Mexico, but I know for a fact, because the bank in Spain was financing the creation of all of these schools.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure. Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

So in the archives, I found all kinds of documents which basically, there's a whole network of these schools financed by the bank. I don't know exactly how many, but we're talking dozens, if not hundred of these different schools around the world.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's a great segue into what else you found in those bank archives.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because it just seems to me if.

[Unknown Speaker]

They'Re doing something so awful, they would.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have tried to get rid of the records.

[Unknown Speaker]

But then I think, okay, the Germans in the Holocaust, they used IBM machines and they tracked everything and they. Sure, they burned some stuff, but there was just too much to get rid of. Is that the same kind of situation we're dealing with here?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, the funny thing is, I mean, the collapse of the bank, whilst terrible for all of the investors, you know, was great for. Was great for me.

[Unknown Speaker]

It worked out well for you. Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

Because, I mean, like, nobody would have ever been given access to those records. They never expected in their wildest dreams that the bank would collapse.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure.

[Gareth Gore]

And then someone like me would come around, sniffing around, kind of trying to piece things together. Exactly.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

So I think there was just. Maybe it was a similar thing with the Nazis. They just didn't think they were ever going to get caught.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They didn't think they were going to lose.

[Unknown Speaker]

They didn't have any accountability. Right. If you own a bank, it's like, oh, you can keep track of this. No one's going to. It's our bank. No one's going to look at here.

[Gareth Gore]

And also a lot of these guys, you know, the founder of Opus DEI had this kind of these kind of phrases where he talked about things like holy ruthlessness and holy intransigence, which basically, the message is, anything goes. If you're doing what God wants, then it's kind of okay to cut a few corners or to do a few wrong things. He actually told one of his followers, actually the guy that was leading the bank, he said, when you look around and you see people doing bad things, don't worry too much, because you're probably going to see these guys again in heaven. It's kind of fine. God will kind of look the other way for certain things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I'm not a religious scholar, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

I feel like the religious teachings of Jesus, et cetera, were not like, you can just do whatever you want. God's on our side, it's cool. It's going to look the other way and, you know, by any means necessary. That doesn't seem like something Jesus would have said.

[Gareth Gore]

And also, like, Catholicism has this kind of unique, kind of get out of jail free card as well. If you confess and you repent, it's all fine. Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, this is coming to you from the people who are like, hey.

[Unknown Speaker]

Your relative is in the seventh circle of hell. And if you want to get them up a few notches, just give us a bunch of money. The corruption in this particular organization is not brand new.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

Jeez. Oh, my goodness.

[Gareth Gore]

But, yeah, I mean. I mean, like. Because they didn't think they were ever going to get caught. I mean, this kind of stuff I found. I mean, there was one incident where one of the bank's employees, an Opus DEI member, had been sent to Venezuela with a suitcase full of money. And we don't know exactly what it was for, but it was probably to start up a new Alpus DEI school there. Anyway, he got arrested because actually, the Venezuelan police thought he was a communist. And it caused this big kind of diplomatic incident.

[Unknown Speaker]

This is before they loved communists in Venezuela.

[Gareth Gore]

This is in the 60s, actually, when Venezuela was like, kind of oil boom, kind of got it. And the. This guy gets caught. There's this whole diplomatic incident and all these negotiations. He gets sent back to Spain, and when he comes back to Spain, he's collected at the airport by a bunch of Opus DEI minders who then put him into this mental asylum because they're worried that he's kind of going to crack and he's going to tell everyone what he was really up to and where the money came from and all this stuff, and then he basically disappears. Now, this whole story is kind of documented in the bank's Archives. And you know, like so many times in researching the book, you kind of come across something and you're like, what? Like you almost can't believe what you're reading. Yeah, but it's there in black and white. You back it up with other evidence and you almost have to pinch yourself. Yeah, there's some incredible stories like that in the book.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, there are quite a few stories like that in the book as well. It seems like the group Opus DEI begins to ask Catholics to essentially exert their influence in professional and political spheres. There's a Supreme Court justice in the United States that's in this cult, Correct?

[Gareth Gore]

We don't know because membership of upper state is completely private. But we do know that in the early 2000s, maybe your listeners will have heard of this thing called the Federalist Society.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, we had a branch at my law school.

[Gareth Gore]

Oh, really? And how was that?

[Unknown Speaker]

I just remember they were conservative and a couple of my friends were in it and they're like, you should join. It's right up your alley. But I don't really know much else.

[Gareth Gore]

So. I mean, one of the most powerful guys inside the Federalist Society is a guy called Leonard Leo, who is a huge fan of Opus Dei. He's given a huge amount of money to Opus Dei. He sent his kids to the Opus Dei schools in Washington, D.C. he sits on the board of directors at the Opus DEI center in Central Washington. I mean, he has been the person who's probably single handedly most responsible for the kind of shift of the Supreme Court over the past 10 years or whatever. In the early 2000s, there was this incident at a party which this only came out recently, where a boss from the Federalist Society, and maybe that was Leo, maybe it was someone else. There was this incident where, at a party where I think Chief Justice Roberts had either just been appointed to the court or was about to be appointed, and this big boss from the Federalist Society said, don't worry, he attends Opus Day Evenings of Recollection kind of once a week. He's one of us. You don't need to worry about him. Whether or not that means he's a member or not, I'm not sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow. Okay. Well, that's really kind of scary.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Can you provide any sort of overview of methods or tactics that the groups use to influence political or maybe judicial decisions in any way?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I was talking kind of recently to a numeratory from Spain. So what happens once they've found people to recruit? The way that Opus DEI operates is that, of course, you're expected to kind of whip yourself and do the rest of it and go to Mass and confession and the rest. But they also have this additional requirement, which is called. They call the chats. Sounds nice and friendly, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whenever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Whenever it sounds that innocent, it's always horrific, right?

[Gareth Gore]

And this thing is, like, it's meant to be done every week or every two weeks, and basically, a numerary comes out to you and sits with you, and you open up your heart and you tell them everything about your life, your sex life, your professional life, whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's incredibly awkward to think about.

[Gareth Gore]

And they give you guidance. This. Yeah, this celibate guy that you don't really know, kind of giving you guidance about your sex life.

[Unknown Speaker]

A 40 year older than me, celibate man is gonna tell me what to do with my sex life?

[Gareth Gore]

Sounds great. I'm pretty sure that the. The kind of sex life advice is always the same, which is, like, you only have sex to procreate, and you should be having as many kids as possible. So, I mean, that's basically all of the advice they need to give.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm starting to think I'm not a good fit Opus dei, Gareth.

[Gareth Gore]

But these. I mean, these chats. Chats kind of over the years have been used to kind of collect information and have been used also to abuse the kind of relationship, the confidence that the member puts into Opus dei. So, for example, I mean, one of the guys I was talking to recently, a guy from Mexico, was telling me about every time he got back to the center after doing one of these chats, he had to put together this report card. Now, because they didn't want to have a paper trail, the report card, and this was even in the 2000s, was put together on a typewriter with kind of a carbon copy underneath. So you're typing out all of these intimate details about this guy you've just sat with, about, I don't know, like, trouble he's having at work or, like, marital problems. You're typing it all up into a record. One copy gets kept at the center, put into a safe there or whatever, and the other copy gets sent to the regional headquarters of Opus dei.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

So for years, they literally had all of these files with compromising information. And, you know, they would read this and work out ways of using this information to further their agenda. I mean, okay, I should, at this stage, disavow people of the notion that there's some guy sat in Rome, head of Opus dei, issuing orders down to, like, Leonard Leo or whatever. That's not the way it works.

[Unknown Speaker]

The U.S. supreme Court.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. That's not the way it works. The way it works is that they use these chat sessions to gently push people into the right direction. And often that oversteps the mark. So they might be told about how to think about a certain political issue and kind of. They misuse Catholic teachings to push them in a certain direction. I've heard stories about senior judges as well, members of Obus DEI being given certain books and articles to read on cases that they're currently kind of sitting on as a way of, like, pushing them to make the right decision on certain things.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

So these chats, which are supposedly just meant to be like almost like a therapy session, helping you to be a better Catholic. Opus De's collecting information and then using that information to work out what buttons it can press to maybe get you to give some more money or to team up with some other members of Opus DEI to further this anti abortion group or agenda or whatever it might be.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was going to ask about that because, of course, the abortion cases, Roe v. Wade in the United States, it's front and center, has been for a while. And you get these justices on there and it's like, okay, if your whole mantra is by any means necessary and God's okay with our plan and isn't subject to the laws of man, how.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Do we know you're making impartial judgments.

[Unknown Speaker]

With respect to something like Roe v. Wade? And the answer is you're almost certainly not doing that. And you're being nudged to do what the Church wants, which is completely inappropriate.

[Gareth Gore]

And actually not just what the Church wants, because, I mean, the kind of Catholicism that Opus DEI has been pushing has been not the same as what Pope Francis was pushing during his papacy. And it's too early to talk about Pope Leo, but these are not accepted Catholic teachings. And this is not what the Vatican is pushing. This is a very perverted reading of Catholicism. It's a very conservative, reactionary reading of Catholicism where they pick bits of the Bible to support what is really a kind of ultra conservative agenda. It's using scripture to push back on anything progressive and for anything kind of left leaning. And it's a misuse of religion. Really?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

So is it safe to say that these people are more conservative than the Pope?

[Gareth Gore]

Certainly more conservative than the current Pope and the last Pope. Whether they were more conservative than John Paul ii, who was pretty conservative, and Benedict, I'm not sure. I mean, actually John Paul II saw Opus DEI as a great ally. Yeah, he gave them this kind of special status, which effectively allowed them to operate outside of the normal hierarchy of the Church. He saw them as like his special army.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was gonna say as like Catholic special forces.

[Gareth Gore]

Precisely. I mean, so when he became Pope in the late 70s, the church, I mean, as it is today, was kind of deeply divided. He didn't really know how Rome worked properly. He was worried about bishops in, you know, far flung places like the States and Latin America, who were maybe left leaning and who weren't listening to his edicts. And so I think he literally gave Opus DEI this special status because he wanted them to be his special forces. He would dispatch them to certain countries that were causing trouble and say, go do your thing. And so he would basically kind of subvert and undercut the existing church structure in those countries in order to push his conservative agenda. Opus De were very happy to do that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure. Of course. Do you think it's going to. I'm sure it's really hard for you to say, but if they got special status under that previous Pope, do you think there's a world in which the current Pope is like, hey, by the way, this is ridiculous and a perversion of the religion. We should probably reel these guys in?

[Gareth Gore]

That already started to happen under Francis. I see Opus Dei's been riddled with accusations of abuse for decades.

[Unknown Speaker]

Labor trafficking. What else?

[Gareth Gore]

Labor trafficking. I mean, grooming of children. It's kind of.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, that's on brand.

[Gareth Gore]

I mean, the ranks, the numerary ranks, because of all the pressures on them, those ranks are absolutely riddled with mental illness. And what Opus DEI does is it covers that up by heavy use of prescription drugs. So they have these Opus DEI doctors which prescribe drugs for, you know, enumerate, is having a hard time, is sent to the Opus DEI doctor, comes back with this kind of long prescription of drugs they're meant to take. You know, many of them, I've spoken to people who've come out the other side, they leave Opus DEI and they go and see a proper doctor. And the doctor is like, why the hell are you on this long list of drugs? This is doing nothing for you and is making you worse. So, yeah, there's kind of drug abuse, all kinds of. Kind of financial fraud and kind of spiritual fraud as well that we're talking about before with the chats. So in the late 2010s, Pope Francis became aware of some pretty horrendous abuses inside of Opus Dei, and he decided to take action. And in 2022, the Pope issued this thing called a multu propio, which is basically a papal decree. It's like this is an order coming from the Pope, and he basically ordered them to get their act in order. He said, like, you guys, you now have to rip up your statutes and start again. You've got to kind of basically redraw your constitution because it's fucked up. He maybe didn't use those words.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, he might not.

[Gareth Gore]

He spoke in Spanish, of course.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sounds nicer.

[Gareth Gore]

But he basically put them on notice saying, you guys need to clean up. So since 2022, Opus Dei has basically dragged its feet. Now, what's interesting about current events is that just before he died on Easter Monday, Pope Francis had been on the cusp of signing into law this huge reform of Opus dei. So he'd all been kind of agreed with the Vatican. A week later, Opus DEI was meant to have his big vote to approve it internally, and then it would get sent back to the Pope, he'd sign it off and the reforms would be done. So within hours of the Pope dying, Opus DEI cancelled. They're like, maybe we don't have to do this anymore.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Gareth Gore]

And actually then there was this huge campaign started to lobby about for who was going to be the lobby.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was going to say, what if they probably, if their enemy is no longer in power, maybe they can get their own guy in there.

[Gareth Gore]

Well, there was this extraordinary situation as well, where for a time, Pope Francis body was lying in State in St. Peter's Cathedral. Members of the public and cardinals were all kind of lining up to pay their respects. This one Opus DEI cardinal turns up and is photographed standing over the Pope's dead body wearing his cardinal robes. Now, what's interesting about that is that a couple of years earlier, Pope Francis had banned this guy because of all of these sexual abuse allegations. He'd banned him from wearing his cardinal robes.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

And banned him from making any public statements. He then starts to use his time in Rome. He's lobbying alongside a bunch of other kind of conservative forces within the Church for a hardline conservative Pope. They didn't get what they wanted.

[Unknown Speaker]

That was my next question. Is Pope Leo a hardline conservative or no?

[Gareth Gore]

See, with Pope Leo, they clearly didn't get what they wanted. And what's interesting is that Pope Leo, one of his very first acts, one of his very first audiences, he summoned the head of Opus DEI to come and see him and basically demanded an update about worthy reforms.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Where were we at with that thing?

[Unknown Speaker]

We were supposed to Sign on Friday.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, yeah. You remember that thing?

[Unknown Speaker]

What thing? I don't remember. Oh, really? Let me refresh your memory. This is interesting.

[Gareth Gore]

I mean, for me, that's a very clear signal that this Pope sounds like it's a priority. Absolutely. Literally, day one, his first set of meetings, Opus DEI guy is brought in. Where are we with cleaning up the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mess that you've been making for the last century?

[Gareth Gore]

And there are signals coming from the Vatican. I've been hearing from sources that, you know, the messages to victims. You aren't going to be disappointed. There's going to be some big reforms coming out. So, I mean, we will see.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. It's all a bit up in the air.

[Unknown Speaker]

Are there any specific cases, let's say, in the United States under the Supreme Court, that you believe were influenced by Opus dei, besides Roe v. Wade?

[Gareth Gore]

I think the way to think about it. Okay, so Opus dei, it's not just the Supreme Court. Like, Opus DEI has spent years inserting itself into the very fabric of Washington, D.C. and conservatives are quite. And so, yeah, a bunch of people will be members of Opus dei, but I think the best way to think about Opus DEI is as a network. Some people will be members, other people just have kind of brushes with members or with the network. And so it's about creating a culture, it's about informing that culture and creating kind of an ecosystem of people like us. So that when Trump's looking to appoint the right person to head up, I don't know, Department of Education or whatever it might be, there are a bunch of candidates here who are well versed in Catholic teachings or in kind of conservative Catholic teachings, who can be relied on to push through the right kinds of policies and rulings.

[Unknown Speaker]

What are the implications of this for the future of, let's say, democracy and judicial independence, especially in the United States? Because if there's all these people sort of waiting in the wings and the rest of the folks are highly suggesting that they be appointed to specific positions. The whole Illuminati, you know, the Jews control the world conspiracy that they've been projecting onto Jews, but it's actually happening with them.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, I mean, there was actually this One priest in D.C. quite a famous Opus Dei priest, called C.J. mcCloskey, and he didn't mince his words. He talked about this great battle coming and the potential for war and how good Catholic should expect to kind of go into battle with progressives. And, you know, there may well be blood or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, like a real war?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, like, absolutely. Like a real and, you know, he very much kind of advocated for a kind of theocracy, because a theocracy, I think my understanding of it is that it's. It's kind of literally, you have priests in charge who kind of take messages from God. And I don't think they quite see that happening. But I think, and we're kind of starting to see this to a certain extent with Trump, it's about having our guys in charge, people who we can trust, people who are like us, who believe the same kinds of things, who have a very similar outlook on Western civilization and what a family should look like and what schooling should look like and what society should look like. It's more about that than an Illuminati of, like, a group of guys getting in a room together. And it's about a culture. And Opus DEI is they have all of these plans in the US to expand. I mean, what. They've very successfully inserted themselves into the Washington, D.C. kind of circles. I mean, one stat I kind of like to talk about is as a Catholic organization, you'd expect the opusdin membership in the States to be concentrated in predominantly Catholic cities. So, like, places like Boston, Chicago, New York, Miami these days, I guess, with the large Hispanic population, but the largest open state community in the states is Washington, D.C. and that's because that's where they focus their recruitment efforts and that. Because that's where you need to be to influence society. So having, I guess, cracked the political judicial worlds, the next stage that they see is they really want to crack the education sphere. So they have these big plans to expand the Opus DEI school networks across the country. They're already present at all of the Ivy League universities, but they have these big plans to, again, expand their presence there to influence the kinds of debates that are happening on campus, to try to kind of shift them to insert more conservative talking points. But also they're recruiting tomorrow's elite as well. They've already got today's elite. It's about grooming the next generation of leaders to make sure they're also on the same page.

[Unknown Speaker]

I guess they're not really hidden because you know about it, but it seems like they don't maybe really advertise this particular thing. I mean, they're recruiting, but they're not necessarily advertising how much power that they're trying to exert over specific cultural moments.

[Gareth Gore]

This is because, I mean, they very much like to keep kind of all of these things at arm's length because it gives them plausible denial.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure, yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

But also, what's interesting is what marks Opus DEI out from the rest of the church is that for the rest of the Catholic Church, anybody's welcome to join, whereas Opus DEI is by invitation only. You can't go onto the Opus DEI website, punch in your details and get like a pamphlet in the post or brochure or whatever, exclusive. It's a club, you know, they literally choose you as a member. They decide who they want, they decide whether that person's pliable, whether that person will be beneficial to the. To the group, and then you're invited in. So it's absolutely by invitation on me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are they true believers, all these people.

[Unknown Speaker]

You think, or is it kind of like a power structure like any other?

[Gareth Gore]

That's a great question. I think it depends how advanced Opus DEI is in that country. I think here in the uk, for example, Opus DEI is relatively small. And I think the people that join it here do it because they're really serious Catholics and they're looking for something Catholicism, kind of pro or whatever. But I think Opus DEI in some parts of the world has so successfully inserted itself into society, particularly into kind of the political and business circles. So in places like Spain, for example, and across Latin America, I think being part of Opus DEI and being part of the network can be extremely beneficial to you. Kind of if you're starting a business, you kind of. You might get a few connections or a few deals through your pals in Opus dei. It very much works like that in Spain.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sort of like Scientology. I mean, I don't know that many other cults, so I'm constantly harping on this. But yeah, a lot of people, they join when they want to become an actor because it's like, oh, well, all the producers in this town are in there. Not all, but many. And the casting people are in here and they're kind of going to pick you over the other people. If you join and you're like, it's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kind of a club and it's got.

[Unknown Speaker]

The self help element. And then after you're in it for a while, you're like, oh, aliens, huh? You know, whatever the next few levels of this thing are. And it sort of sounds like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, yeah, I'm Catholic, I'll go a little hardcore.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why not? It's kind of cool. I'm into it already. Yeah, look, I but got promoted at the bank because one of the directors is Opus DEI and I kind of came to him for some career advice. Look, I'm on the partner track now or whatever, and then it's like that you're in the club, you don't want to relinquish that for no good reason.

[Gareth Gore]

I see Opus dei. In my mind, it's a kind of politicized club. It's kind of like a boys club, although women are admitted as well. But with this kind of weird veil of spirituality, which does a couple of things. I mean, it kind of. It means that people who are considering joining kind of drop their guard because they're like, oh, it's just part of the Catholic Church, it's kind of fine. But that spirituality element is also used to control people. It's also used, I think, especially in the world of politics as a way of like you've got a priest patting you on the back saying, oh, yeah, your ultra right wing view on this, it's kind of justified in the Bible. So it's kind of fine. It's almost like a reassurance kind of thing.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. So it serves a bunch of purposes, but yeah, I mean, I'm under no doubt. It's kind of a deeply reactionary political network that uses this kind of veil of spirituality basically to entice people in and to keep them in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you want to support this show, all you need to do is flay the skin on your back, open with a whip or support the amazing sponsors that make this show possible. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Oura Ring. So here's a question. How you feeling today? And a better one. Why do you feel that way? Well, you don't know, probably. I used to think I slept okay. 7ish hours. I didn't wake up groggy. It's all fine. But then I tried the Oura Ring and it was like, hey, your deep sleep is garbage. And that's the part that really matters for recovery energy, brain function, basically everything keeping you together. Once I saw that, I made a few tweaks, cut screens earlier, cool the room down, dial in my evening routine. Boom. My deep sleep went way up. I feel way better. And all of that insight from a ring that looks like a ring. No screens, it's not a clunky wrist gadget. Just clean, stylish, smart as hell. And with eight days of battery life, I don't have to babysit this thing. It just works. Plus there's this thing called circles. You can compare your sleep scores with friends or your partner or your family. Jen and I are always comparing scores. Oh, you got an 89. I got a 94.

[Unknown Speaker]

I wish.

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

The show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment support the amazing sponsors. They make the show possible. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code. Shoot us an email. We are more than happy to surface codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Gareth Gore.

[Unknown Speaker]

So Dan Brown writes the Da Vinci Code. Did this cause ruckus inside Opus dei because no group wants their thing fictionalized to be like a massive hit and make them look crazy and psycho?

[Gareth Gore]

I remember during the kind of research for the book, I spent some time in New York and I, I spoke to the guy there, the Opus DEI spokesperson who discovered that whole thing. Part of his job was to kind of read Publishers Weekly, which for those people who aren't into the publishing world, is basically an industry magazine which tells you like, the latest titles that are about to be launched or whatever. And he was kind of flicking through this, kind of on the lookout for anything that might be about Opus dei, and he just comes across this crazy novel by this guy called Dan Brown who'd had a couple of like minor hits before this, but he wasn't really well known at this stage. This is like 2003 or whatever. And he finds out that this book, basically one of the main characters is an Opus DEI nunri, an albino monk. There are no albino monk.

[Unknown Speaker]

I forgot about that. Yeah, right, right, right.

[Gareth Gore]

Who goes around killing people to keep church's secret secret. And yeah, so obviously all of that kind of bit is like made up already. But I think at first they were like really like, we're kind of going to be a kind of a group of that's ridiculed or whatever. But they, I think they very quickly realized that they could turn it to their advantage.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're so famous. We got parodied by this hit novel. Look, Tom Hanks is in this mov.

[Gareth Gore]

And so they ran with it. So they basically inserted themselves into the news cycle as like, hey, you want. You've heard about the Da Vinci Code, now come meet the real. The real Opus dei, which is this kind of highly polished public relations side of the organization. They don't tell you about the human trafficking or the drugging or the grooming of children. They kept that secret. But they told me that basically it was a turning point for them in the States. Suddenly, they had a lot more members because people were like, ah. They very successfully inserted this highly polished image of Opus DEI into the media. And so, you know, you have pieces in, like, Time magazine, the New York Times, that we're talking about the real Opus dei, which was anything but.

[Unknown Speaker]

I suppose they also would attract people who go, oh, I'm cool, being a little bit evil and justifying it with religion. So they probably get the contingent of those people as well, who are kind of like, I have no qualms abusing power. Where do I get some?

[Gareth Gore]

And there is that. There is that. And actually, I, you know, I get a lot of trolls on social media.

[Unknown Speaker]

I can imagine there are a lot.

[Gareth Gore]

Of people that fall into that category of, like, I'm going to support these guys because they're the bad guys.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, Right.

[Gareth Gore]

Because. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why not?

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was going to ask if you feel like you maybe got a little bit of a target on your back exposing this, or have you faced any resistance or danger in exposing this? Because a lot of times these groups don't love it when investigative journalists go through their archives and find a bunch of dirt.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. I mean, it was kind of odd because the Opus DEI were helpful, but not helpful through the process.

[Unknown Speaker]

Surprise, surprise.

[Gareth Gore]

Because they were like, oh, we're totally transparent. We've got nothing to hide. And I was like, great, show me that. Let's go with this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, we're not. We're not that transparent.

[Gareth Gore]

So, to their credit, you know, they arranged many interviews for me. They invited me into a bunch of their centers. I didn't just take their word for it. I also, like, did my homework and I met, you know, I arranged my own interviews, met former members, did a huge amount of digging in the archives, whatever. But to answer your question about do I. I mean, it's kind of been a weird experience. I mean, I fell into this story by accident. So I didn't set out to write something about Opus dei, So I think they've kind of struggled a bit with that element because it's kind of easy. If someone comes and writes a book who has an agenda, then you get.

[Unknown Speaker]

The albino monk after you.

[Gareth Gore]

Well, yeah. Or someone who's like, for maybe like a dude, disgruntled former member who writes a book. It's kind of easy to dismiss that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but.

[Gareth Gore]

Because I fell into accident. But they've tried. I mean, like, before the book came out, we had a few difficult months where Opus De hired an extremely expensive and extremely aggressive defamation firm.

[Unknown Speaker]

And especially in the uk, that's tough, right? Because.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. Well, actually, this was in the U.S. oh, it was.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because I know in the UK, defamation is so much easier to harass people.

[Gareth Gore]

Yes, yes, I think. But because the main publisher was American, Simon Schuster.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

They kind, you know, they came after us, the. And they sent a lot of kind of aggressive letters, basically. I mean, I think the intention was to make Simon and Schuster think twice about publishing this, but crap, he cashed.

[Unknown Speaker]

His advance check, so we kind of have to.

[Gareth Gore]

I think they were, like, trying to send the message, you know, like, you know, maybe you've paid this guy in advance, but, hey, there could be a lot more trouble. I mean, why don't you just kind of like, quietly make this book go away? But to Simon and Chester's credit, they stood by me the whole way.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that's impressive.

[Gareth Gore]

You know, like, it's really impressive. And, you know, I thank them and my, you know, hats off to them. But that wasn't the end of the kind of campaign. You know, before the book even came out, before they'd even had a chance to read a page of the book, they issued all of these statements saying it was all conspiracy theories, it's all lies. I mean, like, how can you say something's lies if you don't even know what. What's written. What's written in there, like, that's true. And then we're gonna assume it's all lies. Yeah. And once the book came out, they launched this whole kind of disinformation campaign. They tried to do this whole character assassination. I've had all this kind of army of trolls online trying to take me down, and I'm waiting for the emails.

[Unknown Speaker]

That say, like, oh, he took you for a ride. Everything he said was false. Yeah, I have this other guy on and hear the truth. I get that every time I do something like this. Here's another guy. He'll show you the truth, and you look the guy up, and it's going to be like, a guy who's a lifelong priest from the Spanish church, lives in Texas now. It's going to be somebody like that.

[Gareth Gore]

Absolutely. I mean, I think the most interesting thing for me is that most normal organizations, when confronted with, like, super serious allegations of, like, human trafficking, grooming of kids, drugging your own members, spiritual abuse, breaking the seal of confession, they would come out and they would say, these are really serious allegations. We are going to take them very seriously. We're going to investigate them, get to the bottom of them, and if anyone needs to be brought to justice, we'll ensure that's done. Opus Dei's response has been stick its fingers in its ears and go, la.

[Unknown Speaker]

La, la, la, la, la.

[Gareth Gore]

This guy's a liar. This guy's a liar. And I think that's really quite telling. This is an organization that has zero intentions of addressing its failures and addressing abuse inside of its ranks. Because the founder said the vision for Opus DEI came from God, and because the founder wrote this vision down in meticulous amounts of detail, to challenge anything that the founder wrote down is to challenge the whole foundation that this group is built upon is to challenge this notion that it's an idea from God. And so they're trapped. They can't question anything about the way it runs, because that's kind of what the founder said. And the founder said it came from God, so how can we challenge God? So they've kind of got themselves into this kind of vicious circle, I think.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were there any specific moments during your investigation that really shocked or deeply disturbed you? I mean, again, it's going to be hard to pick one with the labor trafficking and all this stuff, but anything stand out?

[Gareth Gore]

I went out to Argentina to meet. There's a group of 42 women there who were recruited as kids and basically enslaved by Opus dei. And, you know, meeting with many of those women, hearing their stories, was just absolutely horrendous. I mean, can you. I mean, I've got three daughters. Two of them are that age where these girls, you know, and it's just to think of these poor kids being enticed with this kind of carrot of a better life and then ending up being kind of led into this horrendous life of servitude. I mean, they were literally working 14 hours a day for no pay, 365 days a year. They were not allowed to go out onto the street on their own unaccompanied. I mean, it's like the Handmaid's Tale.

[Unknown Speaker]

It really sounds like it.

[Gareth Gore]

In real life, one of the most uncomfortable moments was, you know, Opus DEI said it didn't have anything to hide. And so I said, look, I'd love to come into one of these schools that still exists in Argentina these days. And I said, look, here's a school I found. I know it was directly financed by the bank, so there's a direct link to what I'm investigating. And they're like, ah, but it's all fine. All the girls are happy there. I was like, well, fine, let me come in, let me talk to somebody. And this went on for days, like, whilst I'm like, look, I've got, I'm leaving tomorrow. If I don't speak to them tomorrow, then that's it. And I. We'll try, we'll try. And then I get a call like in a few hours before I'm leaving. I'm afraid they've had a vote inside the school and the girls have voted that they don't want to.

[Unknown Speaker]

These people who are enslaved and have no. Aren't allowed to go out on their own, have voted to not allow anyone to vote.

[Gareth Gore]

They voted no. They said they don't want you in because they might be uncomfortable having a guy around and journalist. But they've nominated two people to come and be kind of spokespeople for the group. You know, they'll meet you at the upper state office or whatever. So I was like, okay, well, it's not ideal because I kind of, you know, but fine. And so I went off and had coffee with these two young women and I was like, yeah, so I heard that there was. You guys had a vote. And they were like, what are you talking about? And so I'm like, you know, it's just so many moments. Didn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

Didn't even get the lie straight. Forgot to brief them on the. That they gave you on the phone call.

[Gareth Gore]

My gosh, so many moments like that where, you know, they feed you what's hands like a plausible excuse or explanation or lie, and then you dig into it and you find out it's just all horseshit.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like well orchestrated horseshit. Yeah, right.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hey, when you go there, he's going to ask about the vote. We told him we all voted and that you're the spokespeople. They just show up totally unprepared.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's so.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's comically ridiculous.

[Gareth Gore]

I had another thing where, you know, basically I was asking about what had happened at the Vatican with Pope Francis and this clampdown. And, you know, this one senior guy in El Paso was telling me how it was all nonsense. I, you know, what really happened was this. And then the more I dug into the story and the more I asked him like, well, how can you say that. How do you know this? And it became apparent that he was just making the whole thing up.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, sure.

[Gareth Gore]

But I think the reason they've got away with it for so long is because it's complicated. Journalists don't have a huge amount of time. You know, they're under pressure to kind of get the next story, generally.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

And so it's been, I think, quite easy for them over the years to brush people off. Off with kind of these explanations about whatever. And I only fell into this by accident. If the bank hadn't collapsed, then much of this story might have remained untold, I think.

[Unknown Speaker]

So what's this about hiring retired FBI agents to investigate people? You want to comment on that?

[Gareth Gore]

Yes. I mean, so that was so. I mean, a lot of people inside Elba's day have been unhappy about Pope Francis and the way he was pushing the Church in a slightly more progressive direction. And so they had this campaign going, kind of thinking, well, this papacy is kind of lost, but we can try to make sure the next guy is one of us. And so they started this campaign, and they hired a bunch of former FBI agents, former CIA agents, to collect dirt on potential candidates for the next Pope. And they did this in the end. So when, ahead of the conclave that has just happened, they published this website and published this book with all of this kind of dossier inside on each of the potential candidates. The idea being that they were gonna smear a few of them and try to get one of their guys elected.

[Unknown Speaker]

It failed. Wow. I'm sure that Wyatt Failed is probably a whole separate book, but it's interesting because you would think that if there's an actual real life conspiracy going on inside the Church, with all these levers of power, they probably had a pretty good chance of getting their own guy in. And there's other people who were not interested in that.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, I mean, the Conclave is literally like 130 guys who get to vote in secret. And so, I guess, kind of trying to push that election one way or another. No one will ever know how many votes Poplio got or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it could have been close.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah. I mean, like, so, yeah, I mean, there was every chance they might get their guy in and, you know, leaking the right information. He's not linked to Opus dei, as far as I know. But this. The nominated ambassador to the Vatican, this guy called Brian Birch, he's linked to a website that put out this crazy story about one of the leading candidates for Pope just hours before the Conclave, about how this Guy had collapsed and all these ambulances had to be brought. I mean, clearly. And they had to. They pulled the story in the end. I mean, it was part of this wider campaign to smear the liberal progressive candidates with the hope of getting a more conservative pope.

[Unknown Speaker]

So what do you think Opus Dei's goals are now? I mean, back in the day, it was re. Christianize the whole world. Do you think they're maybe shifting it up a little bit? Or are they still kind of like, nah, we want the whole world to be.

[Gareth Gore]

I think Opus DEI right now is purely focused on survival. It's pretty clear that Francis wanted to bring them down or to, you know, push them to massively clean up. It looks like Leo wants to go the same way. So I think right now it's about trying to save as much of it as they can. I'm sure there are a bunch of die hards inside Opus DEI that are like, whatever the PUP does, a bunch of us will carry on. This is an organization that has hundreds of kind of shell companies around the world. They have assets in the billions in the US Alone. I totted up something like a hundred nonprofits that are linked to OBO's DEI.

[Unknown Speaker]

Really? So this is almost like a parallel Vatican in some ways.

[Gareth Gore]

Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, after Pope Francis began to clamp down, they started to sell off some of the properties. You know, they had this Tiffany mansion in Boston. They had this 16th century castle on the banks of Lake Como in Italy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow.

[Gareth Gore]

You know, they start selling this stuff off.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why?

[Gareth Gore]

I think it's to have liquidity, to have money in the right places, just in case Opus DEI is closed down. Because these nonprofits officially have nothing to do with Opus dei. So even if Opus DEI is closed down, they'll continue to kind of exist. And I think it's a way of restarting the project in another name.

[Unknown Speaker]

I see.

[Gareth Gore]

So I think there's still this kind of die hard core who, no matter what happens with the Vatican, even if the Vatican closes it down, they'll still seek to kind of further the agenda. They'll seek to carry out God's work and the teachings of the founder, Jose Mario Escriva. No matter what.

[Unknown Speaker]

I am so curious what my Christian and especially my Catholic listeners think of this. I'm sure that somebody who's listening to this is in Opus DEI and is going to be like, hey, this guy's got it all wrong.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because I've.

[Unknown Speaker]

Whenever I talk about Scientology, I get emails from people who are in Scientology. I don't know how high ranking they are, but they're like, you got it wrong. It's like a self help thing, blah, blah, blah. But then you talk to, I don't know, Leah Remini or somebody who's high up in Scientology, and they're like, no, this is. It's crazy.

[Gareth Gore]

I think this is a good moment, actually to say that I think the vast majority of Obtain members are probably good people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, they're just really hardcore Catholics who.

[Gareth Gore]

Don'T have a clue what's going on. Like, they don't have a clue about this human trafficking and the way that, that, you know, certain members are being drugged and all of these abuses going on. I think they would be absolutely horrified to find out what is going on inside the organization. I mean, obviously I want them to read my book. Go read my book. You'd have to buy it. Go and get it from the library if you, like, buy it.

[Unknown Speaker]

But maybe hide it under your couch.

[Gareth Gore]

Well, yes, or, you know, like, I'm on Twitter and feel, you know, if you want to DM me, I'm happy to enter into conversation or whatever, but I haven't made this stuff up. There are several other places you can go. I mean, in the 90s in the US there was a website set up by former members called the Opus DEI Awareness Network. It's kind of fallen into disuse. There's a Spanish language kind of community called Opus Libros on Reddit. There's an Opus DEI community these days, an Opus DEI exposed community. There are lots of former members out there. So, you know, if you are a member of Opus DEI or you don't believe me for what, you know, you think this guy's got skin in the game. He just wants to sell his book, go speak to these other people and like, find out what's really going on. There's an excellent documentary on HBO Max, which came out recently called How I left Opus Dei, which is the. I think it's 13 women former members of Opus Dei. Some of them are these numerary servants from all over the world. You know, it's not just Argentina or Spain or whatever. They're from all over the world who talk about their experience. It's not just me saying this. This is. Yeah, this is a widespread problem.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. It's so interesting. In your opinion, what is the best way for the public at large to remain vigilant against these kinds of sort of hidden influences or groups? Or is it just more like be aware that if you're joining a hardcore religious organization, that maybe there's a shady side to it. I don't know.

[Gareth Gore]

What do you think my advice with Opus DEI would be? To steer clear. You can't stay far enough away from this organization because once it gets its clutches into you, it will really rip your part and take advantage of you completely. I mean, my opinions on. I'm not religious myself, but I mean, my opinions on Catholicism and religion more generally are like, if that rocks your boat, it does something for you. Religion can be a very positive thing. Fine. But Opus Day is not a positive thing and in my opinion, should be completely eradicated.

[Unknown Speaker]

What do you think can be done to safeguard institutions like, for example, the Supreme Court or just the judicial branch in general? What can we do to safeguard them from external manipulation by groups like Opus dei?

[Gareth Gore]

I don't know. And I kind of hesitate as non American giving you guys advice about what to do.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think that maybe you should rethink that position. I think we could use a little external expertise.

[Gareth Gore]

We tried to give you our advice like, 200 years ago.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, we weren't good at. We didn't take that, did we? Didn't take that well.

[Gareth Gore]

But I mean, it's kind of odd for me as a British, looking at the way the judiciary works in the US over here, being a judge is like being a doctor. It's not a politicized position. You don't get kind of Democrat doctors and Republican doctors. So why should you have that in the judiciary? It just kind of seems very odd.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's a really good point. Yeah.

[Gareth Gore]

Like, I mean, certainly here. So, like, judges appoint each other and it's kind of seen as a professional guild almost. They're not political appointees. There are no elections or whatever. And when I look across the pond and see how things are done there and how it's so politicized and how your stance on certain issues can mean the difference between you getting a position on the bench or not. I find that extraordinary.

[Unknown Speaker]

Extraordinary is a good word for it. Sure.

[Gareth Gore]

I mean, especially since the judiciary is meant to be kind of the third pillar.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that's the point.

[Gareth Gore]

You have the executive and you have the legislator. And this is meant to be a different thing that's kind of removed from those other two legs of government, but clearly it's not because, you know, you have people who are. The Republican president is appointing Republican judges who are approved by Republican Senate, and it just seems very strange. And the UK judiciary is not perfect either, but. Yeah. What's with the Whigs?

[Unknown Speaker]

That's my question.

[Gareth Gore]

Well, you know what, as a guy with.

[Unknown Speaker]

You could use one. Yeah, sure.

[Gareth Gore]

I could use a wig. Yeah. Maybe I'm in the wrong job.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's right, go to law school and you can pick up a win. Gareth, thank you so much, man. Really interesting. We'll link to the book, of course, in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on. Glad we were finally able to do it.

[Gareth Gore]

Thanks Jordan, for having me on. Been a pleasure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Join us as Adam Gamal, a Muslim, Arab American and former Egyptian refugee, recounts his rise to become a key operative of one of the US's most secretive military units in this two part podcast series. In part one, Adam delves into the high stakes world of counterterrorism and covert operations, revealing the personal and ethical complexities of fighting terrorism from within the shadows.

[Unknown Speaker]

I came to the US to give me the right to dream. In Egypt you don't have that option. It's not cliche. I'm not trying to recruit people to join the army.

But I was like, here is a.

Key actually to be as American as anybody can argue with you. And it was joining the military. You end up there by pure determination, by having grit and by being a bit lucky. So we were basically getting our tasks from Secretary of Defense level, joining Special Operation Command in charge of three main missions, counter narcotic, counterterrorism and hostage rescue. I believe myself if my dad did not push me towards like getting the right education, then maybe I would have went in the wrong direction. So education going to help people prosper, they're going to help people actually critically analyze the information they are receiving. So when somebody's bullshitting them about, hey, if you go to the bathroom with your right foot, not your left foot, you're going to hell. If you have an educated person going to look at him and say, you know what man, this doesn't make any fucking sense. And then I believe to educating women is crucial because they are raising us. A lot of people spend more time with their moms than with their dad because they nurture us and they do all of these things. So if we have a population of educated women in the Middle east or in any of these countries, I think these countries will prosper and it will be harder to convince these guys to become terrorists. Business is war and business is good. When we give people the proper education, we all live a better life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tune in to uncover his unique journey and critical insights only he can provide. On episode 978 of the Jordan Harbinger.

[Unknown Speaker]

Show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All things Gareth Gore will be in the show. [e-mail] advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser. The idea is to give you something specific and practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. Over at 6minutenetworking.com I'm Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also of course hit me up on LinkedIn in this show. It's created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tata Sidlauskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends. When you find something useful or interesting, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's interested in cults, political influence and the like, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

[Unknown Speaker]

It.