1172: TRT & Steroids | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show - Episode 1172: TRT & Steroids | Skeptical Sunday

Overview In Episode 1172 of The Jordan Harbinger Show, host Jordan Harbinger teams up with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Nick Pell to delve deep into the controversial and multifaceted world of Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) and anabolic steroids. The episode explores the rise of TRT, its medical versus cosmetic uses, the associated risks and benefits, and the cultural influences driving its popularity today.

---

1. Introduction to TRT and Steroid Use ([01:37] - [03:27]) Jordan opens the discussion by highlighting the mainstreaming of TRT and performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs), contrasting their current ubiquity with past taboos. Nick Pell humorously touches on misconceptions about steroid side effects, setting the stage for a nuanced exploration.

Notable Quote:

• Jordan Harbinger: "Low testosterone doesn't always cause a lot of side effects, but it did in me." ([05:14])

---

2. Personal Experiences with TRT ([03:27] - [08:18]) Jordan shares his six-year journey with TRT, emphasizing its positive impact on his quality of life, including alleviating chronic insomnia, depression, and low energy levels. He candidly discusses the side effects he experiences, such as muscle growth leading to difficulty fitting into jeans and the necessity of taking aromatase inhibitors to manage estrogen levels.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger: "I took more than what most doctors would prescribe you... I was shelling out about four or five hundred bucks a month for the fertility stuff." ([09:25])
• Nick Pell: "You could potentially permanently nuke your reproductive ability." ([08:18])

---

3. The Dual Nature of TRT: Medical Need vs. Cash Grab ([09:39] - [13:49]) The conversation navigates the fine line between TRT serving legitimate medical needs and being exploited as a profitable venture. Jordan asserts that while TRT addresses genuine hormonal deficiencies, there is a prevalent trend of clinics aggressively marketing the therapy to men who may not medically require it.

Notable Quote:

• Jordan Harbinger: "If you have the same test levels as my 83-year-old dad, is that really normal?" ([12:35])

---

4. Cultural and Psychological Drivers ([13:49] - [19:23]) Nick and Ryan Reynolds discuss societal factors contributing to the surge in TRT and steroid use, including declining testosterone levels in American males, modern sedentary lifestyles, chronic stress, and the pervasive influence of social media. They explore how fear-based marketing tactics can lead individuals to perceive non-existent deficiencies, fueling unnecessary hormone treatments.

Notable Quotes:

• Nick Pell: "It's like hypochondria is applied to your endocrine system." ([21:30])
• Jordan Harbinger: "You're not faking it. But it wasn't a problem before. If you stopped thinking about it, it would go away." ([21:28])

---

5. Side Effects and Health Risks ([27:48] - [35:05]) The hosts delve into the adverse effects of TRT and anabolic steroids, including elevated cholesterol levels, blood thickening, infertility, emotional dependence, and potential liver damage from oral steroids. Jordan emphasizes the importance of medical supervision to mitigate these risks and shares personal anecdotes about managing side effects like elevated PSA levels.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger: "Elevated hemoglobin levels put you at risk of stroke." ([29:06])
• Nick Pell: "Putting shit on steroids can lead to severe depression, fatigue, libido collapse." ([66:15])

---

6. The Influence of Social Media and Fitness Industry ([51:48] - [57:24]) The episode examines how platforms like Instagram and influencers contribute to unrealistic body standards, perpetuating the use of PEDs. Jordan criticizes the glorification of steroid use without adequate disclosure of the associated risks, highlighting the deceptive nature of some fitness influencers.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger: "If you want to see the limit of what the human body is capable of without juice, look up a guy named Eric Bugenhagen." ([58:38])
• Nick Pell: "Guys are developing feelings of inadequacy from seeing these disgustingly jacked and ripped dudes." ([52:00])

---

7. SARMs: The New Frontier ([48:45] - [57:24]) The discussion shifts to Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs), often marketed as safer alternatives to traditional anabolic steroids. Jordan and Nick express skepticism about SARMs, citing the lack of long-term research and dubious efficacy, ultimately advising against their use.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger: "People have been doing TRT and D Ball since the 60s, but SARMs are a recent trend with unknown long-term effects." ([49:29])
• Nick Pell: "SARMs are like whitewashed steroids with none of the actual results." ([50:34])

---

8. Responsible Use and Medical Guidance ([67:00] - [69:07]) Jordan and Nick emphasize the importance of consulting healthcare professionals before starting TRT or any hormone-related therapies. They caution against self-medication and highlight the necessity of medical supervision to navigate the complexities and risks associated with hormone treatments.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Harbinger: "Post cycle therapy is essential when coming off testosterone to avoid severe side effects." ([66:27])
• Nick Pell: "If you're under 35, you almost certainly do not need to be messing with this stuff." ([68:35])

---

Conclusion Episode 1172 of The Jordan Harbinger Show offers a comprehensive and balanced examination of TRT and anabolic steroids, blending personal experiences with critical analysis of societal influences and medical implications. Jordan and Nick advocate for informed decision-making, emphasizing that while TRT can significantly improve quality of life for those with legitimate deficiencies, it also carries substantial risks that must be carefully managed under professional guidance.

Final Thoughts:

• Jordan Harbinger: "You don't get something for nothing, especially with anything else. There are gonna be drawbacks." ([66:54])
• Nick Pell: "Whether you're considering TRT or wondering why guys on Instagram look so jacked, this episode gives you an honest look at the realities." ([68:51])

---

References and Further Reading Listeners interested in exploring TRT and steroid use further are encouraged to consult medical professionals, review scientific literature, and seek out reputable sources to make informed decisions regarding hormone therapies.

Transcript

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Nick Pell]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Nick Pell]

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Nick Pell on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You can use to impact your own life and and those around you.

[Nick Pell]

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays though, it's Skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic. Topics like sovereign citizens, e commerce scams, banned foods, diet pills and energy drinks. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, crime and cults and more. I'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Welcome once again to Skeptical Sunday, where we take a closer look at things people take for granted, misunderstand, or get totally wrong. Now, if you're listening to this podcast, there's about 100% chance that you do in fact have Internet access. And you've probably gotten an ad for those hormone clinics at some point. That is testosterone replacement therapy, or trt. I've even talked about it a little bit here on the show. Not shilling TRT or hormones directly, but clinics that do things like that. They're kind of a dime a dozen these days and some of them are really great and life changing. We'll get to that in a little bit. This treatment, though, is almost exclusively for men, so fair warning, there's going to be a lot of dude talk in this episode. Yes, there's menopause stuff and hormone replacement for women. I feel like it warrants a separate episode entirely. So here when we talk about steroids, that's going to be shorthand for anabolic steroids, not cortisol shots or stuff you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Get in your knee from your doctor.

[Nick Pell]

When your shoulder hurts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know, whatever. Well, probably you wouldn't get anything in your knee where your shoulder hurts.

[Nick Pell]

Depends how shitty your doctor is, Nick. Your doctor works in a storage locker, so they might offer something like that. Anyway, 10 years ago, TRT, testosterone replacement therapy was this exotic thing that you might have heard about, I don't know, and like Joe Rogan and he thought.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, gosh, isn't that drugs?

[Nick Pell]

But no, now it's everywhere. And you probably already know somebody who's on trt, or test, as the cool kids call it. And it's not limited to testosterone replacement therapy either. What used to be a taboo, warned about in after school specials, roid rage or whatever, if you remember those, is now so much more widespread. I'm talking about the use of performance enhancing drugs. We'll call them peds in Hollywood. They use them in pro sports. They use them down at your local gym where people are chasing after superhero bodies and throwing caution to the wind. But why is this, and maybe more importantly, is it safe here today to help me thread the needle on the use of Peds is writer and researcher Nick Bell. Nick, are you juiced up for this episode or what?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I pinned this morning.

[Nick Pell]

So, for those of you who aren't roided out gym freaks like Nick, pinning is what they call injecting steroids. One of the reasons that I asked him to handle this episode. Is it fair to say you're a pretty loud and proud steroid user? Is that fair?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I've been on TRT for six years now, and I would very comfortably say that it saved my life.

[Nick Pell]

Meaning what? You're gonna die from a critical lack of excess body hair and testosterone or what?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, but here's the thing, and we'll get a lot deeper down this rabbit hole as we go along. Low testosterone doesn't always cause a lot of side effects, but it did in me. In fact, my issue wasn't even that my testosterone was low. It was on the high end of normal when I got my blood checked.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, you just had to throw that in, didn't you? I think a lot of people are.

[Nick Pell]

On the low end of normal or in the middle of normal, and they still go for it. But that's not really what matters, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Naturally. But I also had very poor levels of what they call free test.

[Nick Pell]

So free test for our listeners is the amount of testosterone that your body.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I'm going to oversimplify this.

[Nick Pell]

The amount of testosterone your body can actually utilize. So if your testosterone is through the roof, but you don't have enough free testosterone floating around, you're gonna have a bad time. So the short version is that total testosterone is what you have, and free testosterone is what you're actually using. Think about. You could have a million dollars in the bank, but maybe they give you a $500 withdrawal limit. That's your free test. That's the bottleneck. Okay, so what were the symptoms for you, then, of low testosterone?

[Jordan Harbinger]

A little bit of background to give here. I've suffered from chronic insomnia since I was a kid, which I learned much later in life was the result of ptsd. Now, does testosterone cure ptsd? No, but it does make it easier for me to sleep, which is a common thing men report after going on testosterone. Other things related to low testosterone were depression, and I mean severe and extreme depression, which is also probably related to ptsd. But the testosterone made it both easier to deal with that and less of an issue. Generally. I had very low energy. That was the big one that I was like, I think that I am a TRT candidate. But honestly, if testosterone did nothing but clear up those problems for me and did not make me into a jack hulking freak. I probably still take it. I love being a jack hulking freak, but it's more of the other stuff that keeps me doing it.

[Nick Pell]

Any negative side effects for you?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean, we haven't hung out in a while.

[Nick Pell]

You got boobs now.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Are you bald now?

[Nick Pell]

Wearing a wig?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know. Is there anything like that?

[Nick Pell]

I know you can't wear jeans anymore. I'm not sure if that's a side effect.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I legitimately can't fit into jeans anymore because of my monster thighs.

[Ryan Reynolds]

What a flex.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, but I can't wear jeans, so I have to take something called an aromatase inhibitor every couple of months. And canary in the coal mine for that is I get really gnarly back knee. Like nasty zits on my back. But the aromatase inhibitor is an additional medication that I take to prevent nasty side effects, which are typically caused by the body turning excess testosterone into estrogen. That process is called aromatization, hence the name aromatase inhibitor, which, thankfully has nothing to do with smells.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, thank goodness for that. Yikes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So that said, major symptoms are pretty rare at the dose I'm taking, which is at the limit of what can reasonably be called testosterone replacement therapy. I take more than what most doctors would prescribe you, unless you're John Cena and you've totally wrecked your endocrine system from years of massive ped abuse. Me and my current wife have been trying for a kid for two years now, and nothing. So, fellas, especially you young bucks out there, know that if you take testosterone, you could potentially permanently nuke your reproductive ability.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yikes.

[Nick Pell]

Those raisins.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay, why is that? What's going on there?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because when you start introducing external sources of testosterone, your body stops producing it from the regular sources. That means that it stops making the stuff your body needs to produce sperm. And unfortunately, testosterone alone won't make sperm. You need other hormones for that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Young guys are unfortunately thinking, whatever, I don't even want kids. Which, yeah, you're 24.

[Nick Pell]

Of course you don't. But as you get older, you might change your mind, like 90.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Whatever percent of the population. And then if you're taking tons of testosterone and other stuff, it might be too late.

[Nick Pell]

And I do think, Nick, it's a little ironic that a lot of guys, maybe not every guy, but a lot.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Of guys, take this stuff so they can land a girlfriend or a wife, and then when they finally succeed, they find out that they're shooting blanks as a result of shooting all this stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So there's things you can do to reverse that, but they might not work and they're expensive. My startup cost for the regimen that I'm on now was, I think, $4,000. And I am shelling out less now because I found another source. But I was shelling out about four.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Or five hundred bucks a month for the fertility stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For the fertility stuff, yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Gotcha. Yeah. And there's operations and stuff, but let's.

[Nick Pell]

Just say the things that they can do. If your raisins are switched off, that hurts a lot more than the kinkiest.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Stuff that you are able to pull off with your new friends due to all your big muscles over there.

[Nick Pell]

I don't want to get too deep.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Into the weeds on the side effects. Let's come back to this later.

[Nick Pell]

I guess the big question on my mind is, are these drugs meeting a legitimate medical need or is it kind.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Of like, hey, medical need, but it's a vanity play and a cash grab when you take the dressing off.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it's honestly both. I don't think it's an either or thing. If you look at testosterone levels in the average American male, they've dropped considerably over the last few decades. I think that there are some pretty clear reasons for this. We actually have an episode coming up all about it, about xenoestrogens and endocrine disruptors. They're everywhere. They're in the water you drink.

[Nick Pell]

So the water I drink is making.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Me into less of a man.

[Nick Pell]

I guess that shouldn't surprise me. The label on the bottle is French.

[Ryan Reynolds]

For crying out loud. So.

[Nick Pell]

Should have seen that one coming.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's estrogen in the tap water and this is not Alex Jones the frogs are gay paranoia. You're drinking estrogen every time you drink tap water. Not making this up. You check the show notes. I don't like them putting chemicals in the water that turn the friggin frogs gay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Just in case anybody was missing that reference. I love that soundbite.

[Nick Pell]

That's probably one of my most used soundbites, even though it never fits in the conte that I use it in. So I'm glad that it actually slid right in there. Ok, I will defer to the show.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Notes on this one. Plus I'm reading the notes for the next episode.

[Nick Pell]

I have heard that we drink birth control hormones because they come out of people's urine and they aren't filtered out.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Which is crazy to think about.

[Nick Pell]

What are some other reasons for this?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I Mean, it can't just be all esoteric hormone pee in the tap water stuff, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, it's not. There's obesity, there's sedentary lifestyles, chronic stress, which leads to much higher cortisol levels, which nukes your testosterone levels. And there's kind of a feedback loop that develops where one starts causing the others and then they reinforce each other.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay, meaning what exactly? Show me the loop here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you have chronic stress because you sit on your butt all day, which makes you more stressed out, which makes you want to sit on your butt more.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ah, okay. So it's kind of like hashtag, modern life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's the crux of it. The modern Western lifestyle is very conducive to reducing low testosterone levels.

[Nick Pell]

So assume that there is an actual.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Crisis of testosterone levels among American males.

[Nick Pell]

Which is so funny because whenever you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Look at old photos of people, men and women both look way older. You find out they're like 29. And you're like, why does this person look 45 in this photo?

[Nick Pell]

And then also, maybe this is just.

[Ryan Reynolds]

A weird cognitive bias of mine, but.

[Nick Pell]

When I look at pictures of men.

[Ryan Reynolds]

From like the 60s and 70s, they look way more. And again, this could just be like style and aesthetic.

[Nick Pell]

They look way more manly than guys do in 2025. Again, I'm open to just.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is like anecdotal my observation over the last few days before this episode. So could be nonsense, but that's kind of how I feel about it.

[Nick Pell]

Telling me that testosterone levels have gone down in the past few decades. It just completely tracks somehow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, Sean connery is like 30 years old when he's playing James Bond and he looks like a 50 year old today.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, in the photos you mean.

[Nick Pell]

OK, and what about the cash grab part? If there's a serious problem, is it a cash grab at all or does.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It just go over the line at one point?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So in one sense, yeah, I think they're addressing an actual issue. In another sense, guys come to me all the time like, oh, should I go on testosterone? Because I'm the guy they know who talks about being on testosterone. And I have very few opinions about how another grown man should live his life. I figure people more or less know what works best for them. But the first thing I ask them is, how do you feel? Because a blood test reading of your testosterone can tell you a lot. But you can more definitively answer this question by answering questions like, how are your energy levels? Do you have a sex drive? Are you depressed? And I get different Answers. Some guys say, oh, I feel fine, but my blood work says I have low tests. And I'm just like, bro, who cares? You feel fine. Who cares what the number on a piece of paper says? And I get the opposite. My numbers are fine, but I feel terrible. Okay, so a number on a piece of paper is fine. So you have to suffer. Just go talk to your doctor, man.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, okay.

[Nick Pell]

So do you think that many of.

[Ryan Reynolds]

These clinics are pushing treatments on men that they maybe don't need? Like the guy who feels fine, but he supposedly has low test and now he's just shooting stuff up every three days?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I think the clinics probably do this. They're also stupid expensive. My totally reputable and legal clinic that only accepts Bitcoin as payment and only communicates via ProtonMail, charges something like 35 bucks for a bottle of Tessie that lasts me like, two months. And some of these clinics are getting like 200 bucks a month or more for the same bottle. Now, granted, they're providing additional services on that, but they'll be, oh, we'll send you the needles. It's like a box of needles is like 12 bucks.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, it is interesting. One, they figure you can't get it anywhere else. Two, yeah, they send you the needles. And three, they're like, we're monitoring your blood work. And it's like, well, okay, depending on the clinic. It really does depend. Like, my clinic, by the way. I'm happy to refer anybody to mine. I don't take testosterone, but I take other stuff.

[Nick Pell]

And they're super responsible with it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But, yeah, you hear about these clinics where, like, the doctor looks at your stuff annually and is like, yeah, you're not dead yet. Give me 12,000 more dollars and I'll send you a pallet of testosterone or whatever and another pallet full of needles.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I've totally had that experience, by the way. Whereas, like, I had elevated PSA levels, which is prostate stuff, and it was like, yo, I have elevated PSAs. We need to talk about this. It took me, like, two weeks to get somebody on the phone, and then they were like, did you have a bladder infection recently? Yes, I did. Okay, well, then you're probably fine. We'll monitor it. Nothing to be worried about now. But it's like, okay, well, I just spent two weeks thinking I had cancer.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's super scary. That's like, phone call that day or the next day or text me back, did you have a bladder infection?

[Nick Pell]

Okay, it's probably that, but we'll still.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Have you talk to the doctor in a week, but it's probably that, so relax.

[Nick Pell]

That would have gone a long way. That would have scared me.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That would have probably been a deal breaker for me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was a deal. That's why I stopped working with that clinic.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah. It sounds like you have a very serious board certified clinic you use that does not violate any laws or federal regulations whatsoever these days.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, indeed.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For the record, I do have an endocrinologist and we do discuss my blood work levels, dosage. He's.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do.

[Nick Pell]

I like that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because I'm sure as a doctor, he's like, I have to obligatorily tell you not to buy your stuff from the.

[Nick Pell]

Internet, but your blood work looks this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Way and that way. Like, he still. He didn't refuse to do his job because you're not buying the stuff from him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The thing I said about after I get my wife pregnant, I may want to blast again, which will explain what that means later. And they were like, oh, no, it's cool. We got pro athletes. We get it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, they get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's harm reduction. That's it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's a good way to put it.

[Nick Pell]

To circle back a bit, you said.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That testosterone saved your life, which is.

[Nick Pell]

A pretty bold claim. And I know you don't really say.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Stuff like that unless you mean it.

[Nick Pell]

So everyone should be on testosterone.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You're not saying that, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. Like I said, I don't know what you listening to this podcast or some stranger should do. That's a medical decision for you in consultation with a doctor and whatever personal research you do. It's not a decision for me to make. Maybe it's great for you, maybe it's not. I don't know.

[Nick Pell]

Fair enough. Let's say that I've decided I want.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To go on TRT and I want to not pay for it with bitcoin and get the kind of medication somebody produces in a storage locker off a highway exit on the outskirts of Tempe.

[Nick Pell]

How easy is it then to get it legitimately?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's pretty easy, especially if you're willing to shop around. You walk into your local male enhancement clinic and tell them you want to go on testosterone, they're going to oblige.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, that's the cash grab part then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Being a libertarian, like, I think they're just meeting a market need. If a guy wants testosterone, like, sure, I don't even care if he actually needs it. It's his body. He can put whatever he wants. He could sell his kidneys for fent for all I care. But you're right, it is the cash grab part. If you look long and hard enough, you're going to find a place that totally doesn't care if you actually need testosterone or not. And chances are good that you're not going to have to search very hard or very long to find a place willing to accommodate you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is there actual evidence for this? Are you kind of just guessing?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know if there's any statistical evidence for it, but anecdotally, I've never ever met a guy who says, oh, yeah, they turned me down because my testosterone was too high. I don't see why there's any stigma around taking it anyway. If you feel like shit because you're getting old, take testosterone if it makes sense to you. No one's giving out prizes for being depressed and having low energy. And I honestly just hate the kind of doctor who responds to these complaints with, hey, well, you know, we're all getting older, it sucks.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, it's. Look, I'm not saying everybody should go on testosterone, but I am saying everybody should get their hormones checked. Because one of the most common complaints I get just from my friends, but also in the Feedback Friday inbox is.

[Nick Pell]

Like, man, I turned 42 and I just. Not the same person.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And it's not.

[Nick Pell]

Is this just midlife stuff? And it's like, have you heard your hormones checked? And most of the time they haven't.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Or it's been like five years, or they can't remember the last time, or.

[Nick Pell]

It was two years ago. And then I go get a full blood panel, get your hormones checked.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And when your doctor says you're in the normal range, don't just say, okay, bro. I'm curious what the number is because.

[Nick Pell]

Guys will come back and go, I'm.

[Ryan Reynolds]

In the normal range. And it's like, okay, you're 35 and you have, I don't know, 250 or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I was gonna say like 250 or something. Right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Nick Pell]

And look, maybe that's normal, maybe that's what your body wants.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But I'm 45 and mine is 1100 and something.

[Nick Pell]

So you're in the normal range and I'm in the normal range. But I am gonna say that there's probably a fundamental difference in how much.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Free testosterone I have, what testosterone is doing to me, my brain, my body.

[Nick Pell]

And it's just very different. Like, oh, yeah, you're in the normal range. So is my 83 year old dad. So if you have the same test levels as my 83 year old dad.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And you're 35.

[Nick Pell]

Is that really normal? And like you said earlier about having.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Symptoms even though you're in the normal.

[Nick Pell]

Range, I just think that there's this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Massive normal ban and blah, blah. Well, anyway, I'm going off on a.

[Nick Pell]

Tangent, but this is one of my pet peeves about a lot of doctors, especially general practitioners. Not all doctors.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I very much am a guy that follows my doctor's advice. I consult many doctors, but many sort.

[Nick Pell]

Of old school guys and gals. They just seem to refuse to realize.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The fact that a lot of symptoms of aging can be mitigated with medication.

[Nick Pell]

Or exercise or lifestyle. Usually it's all three.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exercise, lifestyle and medication.

[Nick Pell]

But doctors either go straight to medication or they just kind of go, eh, nothing you can do about that. And it's like, no, you can definitely build bone density. You just have to start jumping rope and lifting heavy weights or medium heavy weights. And yes, you can turn back the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Cardiovascular age that you have and make your heart healthier even if you're 60.

[Nick Pell]

You don't have to run a marathon, but you have to stop watching Murder.

[Ryan Reynolds]

She Wrote all day or whatever the hell you're doing now.

[Nick Pell]

So anyway, cut me off, Nick, before.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I continue down this rant hole.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, and I think it is partly a generational thing. I think younger doctors tend to be much more progressive and forward thinking on these types of issues than older doctors. But back to the cash grab, it's so super aggressively marketed. Like guys who maybe don't even have any of these issues see an ad and they're not imagining it. But your mind is pretty amazing in that it can create realities that don't otherwise exist if you pay attention to certain things and not other things. So you start reading about TRT and low testosterone and all of a sudden you have symptoms, quote unquote, that you didn't have before because you focus on and lean into the negative and you didn't even notice it before.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, so this kind of like hypochondria.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is applied to your endocrine system.

[Nick Pell]

Like, oh, I slept a little bit.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Later this week, I'm tired now. You're. Maybe I do have depression.

[Nick Pell]

I'm kind of sad about the lions.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Losing, you know, whatever.

[Nick Pell]

And you're not doing it so you can get drugs specifically in some conscious.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Way, but your brain's just doing this to you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. You're not faking it. But it wasn't a problem before. And if you stopped thinking about it, it would go away. A lot of these places use very fear based marketing. Do you have low tired of being fat or really vague language about regaining your vitality?

[Nick Pell]

That's when they show the gray haired couple and the guy's like smiling at.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The wife and she's smiling back and it's.

[Nick Pell]

You're supposed to read between the lines like they're about to go have sex somewhere because he can still do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Or it's like a 75 year old dude who's super jacked and has an eight pack and it's. That guy is not on TRT, my friend. He's got some additional supplements that we're going to talk about a little further.

[Nick Pell]

And his penis is inflatable. Now the last time that man had a natural erection was the Clinton administration. All right, so that raises an important question. Are men actually optimizing or is this kind of like Botox for dudes?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it depends on the guy. I think it's mostly optimizing. But there's probably a fair amount of Botox for dudes. Myself as an example, there's absolutely no way that I need to be taking. And people who know are about to be like, you're taking What? I take 250 a week. I believe it's milligrams. I just fill the needle up to the five. Two fifty a week is not TRT. It is drug use. And guys are taking this much and lying to themselves about what they're doing because it came from a doctor. So did the stuff that killed Elvis.

[Nick Pell]

Get juiced up for the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show? We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Simplisafe. Home security should be non negotiable. Don't be the low hanging fruit in the neighborhood. If someone's walking around looking for an easy target, your place has no cameras, no signs, nothing. That's the one they're picking. And think about it. What is more important than the safety of your family? That's why I use Simplisafe.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's not just a reactive system that.

[Nick Pell]

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[Audible]

Go to simplisafe.com jordan to get 50% off your system with professional monitoring and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com jordan there's no safe like simplisafe.

[Nick Pell]

This episode is also sponsored by Shopify. When I started this podcast 18 years ago, I had all the doubts most people have. Starting something new. What if nobody listens? What if I can't make it sustainable? And that's just part of the deal. Those what ifs come with the territory. But here's the thing. Dreams don't become reality by staying comfortable.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You gotta take the leap.

[Nick Pell]

It's exactly what Shopify helps you do. Take your idea and turn it into something real. Whether you're launching a full on brand or finally selling that side hustle you've been sitting on, Shopify makes it possible. They power millions of businesses from household.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Names to folks just getting started.

[Nick Pell]

You don't need to be a designer. Shopify's got clean ready made templates. Need help writing product descriptions, enhancing images, setting up promo. Their built in AI tools have your back. Don't know how to find customers? Shopify makes email and social campaigns easy and if you ever get stuck, their 247 support team is there no business degree required. So if you've got an idea that won't leave you alone, turn those what ifs into why nots with Shopify.

[Audible]

Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Jordan go to shopify.com Jordan shopify.com Jordan.

[Nick Pell]

If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every week, it is because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free over at our 6 minute networking course [e-mail] it is non cringey. It is not awkward. It's not going to make you look like a jerk. It's not going to make other people feel bad.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's important to say I think because.

[Nick Pell]

It'S just practical stuff, very bingeable. That'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend and it just takes a few minutes A day. Many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong once again for free [e-mail] now back to Skeptical Sunday. So quickly. Earlier in the episode, you said, I'm.

[Ryan Reynolds]

At the top range of what could be considered trt, and now you're saying.

[Nick Pell]

This is not trt, it's drug use.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So which is it?

[Nick Pell]

Are you in, like, a gray band of.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You're admitting it, but other people would maybe not admit it at the same dose.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the euphemism for this is sport trt. I'm not on trt. I mean, I am, but I'm not.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's definitely like anything above 200 is a little questionable, but most guys who have a legitimate TRT need. It's like 125. Yeah, it's like about half what I'm taking.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Gotcha.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I feel good. So it's like, who cares? I feel good. Which is the point.

[Nick Pell]

Taking it as long as your doctor's.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Monitoring it, it's kind of like, all right, you're making those choices yourself.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We'll watch your blood and watch your diet.

[Nick Pell]

There's longevity.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Stuff that goes along with this I think we're going to get into in a little bit.

[Nick Pell]

But I do agree that I think a lot of the danger here, not.

[Ryan Reynolds]

With your particular use, but I just mean using it in general is a.

[Nick Pell]

Lot of this stuff. They will take 250 a week or 500 a week or whatever they're doing. And it's all kind of like whitewashed because, hey, it's from a doctor. And thing too about optimization is you're not even talking about treating a deficiency anymore.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Like, with 125, you're talking about a.

[Nick Pell]

Way to have an edge in life. So even if a guy doesn't go.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To the gym, he's optimizing and trying.

[Nick Pell]

To be more driven than the other.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Guys at the office.

[Nick Pell]

Do you see that as a problem at all?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, not really. Whatever. He's probably lying to himself about it. But beyond that, I don't think there's really an issue with it. Like you said, is your doctor okay with it, and are you going to a real doctor? But other than that, no. I mean, if guy wants an edge and testosterone gives it to him, sure, why not?

[Nick Pell]

We talked a little bit about the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Side effects earlier, but I think this is a good opportunity to jump into the downsides of all this because you're.

[Nick Pell]

Not just going to get a magic.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Serum that makes you the ultimate superman or gives you that edge without any risk.

[Nick Pell]

So what are the risks?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's an important point to bring up. One biggest one is what it does to your blood. My lipid profile is not great.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay, what does that mean?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's your fat, your cholesterol levels. I think I'm naturally predisposed to bad cholesterol. I'm pretty sure that my old man has bad cholesterol. No matter what I do, no matter how clean I eat, I always have elevated LDL and triglycerides and low hdl.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. And I remember used to be a vegan. If I can out you on that. So if you had bad cholesterol, then genetics are often the culprit at play.

[Nick Pell]

For those who aren't blood work nerds.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Like Nick and I. He's saying that he has high bad.

[Nick Pell]

Cholesterol and low good cholesterol.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And take a statin already, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, look at me. I'm Jordan. I'm a millionaire. Who can afford doctors?

[Nick Pell]

Don't you have insurance?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. Thanks, Obama.

[Nick Pell]

Moving on. What are some other side effects that are a serious issue as opposed to.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Like, zits on your back?

[Nick Pell]

That's gnarly, but okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You go out in the sun for the afternoon every Saturday and it's like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Manageable blood thickening, which is an issue for me or has been an issue for me.

[Nick Pell]

That sounds, one, gross and two, super dangerous.

[Ryan Reynolds]

What is blood thickening?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's pretty much exactly what it sounds like, but the process is that your blood gets more iron than it's supposed to, so it gets thicker and puts you at risk of stroke.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Please tell me there's something you can do about that and that you are also doing that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So some guys, maybe me, maybe not, go to the blood drive every other month. And definitely don't lie on the forums about whether or not they're there to dump blood and leave them with a pint of blood. Yeah, it's called blood dumping. I didn't know about it for two years after I went on test and I was talking to this dude at the gym who was like, you've been on test for two years and you haven't dumped blood? You need to go to the clinic, like, now.

[Nick Pell]

Intense. So what do they do with the blood then?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Apparently it gets flagged for elevated hemoglobin levels, and then they either throw it out or they send it away for research. So I see. Maybe these guys are helping with blood research.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is it like the whole vat of blood or like, just your pint of blood?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, it's just the individual donation. They test all that stuff before they do anything. But if the hemoglobin levels are fine, they just use it for transfusion. The only reason that you're not supposed to do it, I think, is twofold. One, they don't want every guy on gear showing up and using them as a free phlebotomist. And the other one is that you fail all of the, like, do you use needles? Questions. I'm not like, sharing a dirty needle at a trap house.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, yeah. They're like, do you use needles? And it's, yeah, but not like what you mean in this question in the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Same way that a diabetic does.

[Nick Pell]

Like, yes, I use needles for insulin.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Not because I'm mixing up fentanyl or whatever that.

[Nick Pell]

What's the one where you melt it in a spoon?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It used to be heroin, but that all got chased off the market by fent, so probably nothing now.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see. So anyway, it's not like you're gonna accidentally kill someone with your thick blood or they're gonna have to toss out a huge vat of otherwise healthy blood or something, because I was about to let you have it for that blood dumping.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, there's literally nothing wrong with elevated tests in your blood other than possibly elevated hemoglobin levels, in which case, yeah, they're gonna throw it out or send it to a lab.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see. So what else do guys on high doses of testosterone have to worry about?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I mentioned infertility, which is a byproduct of your body stopping producing testosterone once you start introducing it from an outside source. It's called exogenous testosterone. For people who, like, have the New York Times Sunday crossword puzzle. The blood thickening and the bad lipids put a strain on your cardiovascular system. And I think the. Probably the biggest one is the emotional dependence. If I miss a day or two, like, people around me are going to notice mood swings. Body dysmorphia is correlated to it, but I very much doubt it's caused by it. I think it's more the type of dude who's. I have horrible body dysmorphia, and I think that's just a function of how many meatheads are on test. Does a bro culture influencer, Dom Mazzetti, who you apparently do know from my new haircut.

[Nick Pell]

Girls love my new haircut.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Everybody who's 40 plus remembers being emailed this video on a fax. Machine or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And everybody who grew up from South Jersey to Revere, Mass. Remembers the guy. The day you started lifting is the day you became forever small because you're never going to be big enough is the thing he says. It's true.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You're doing good with the downsides, though.

[Nick Pell]

Because I love the real talk.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't like to glorify something that has real downsides. Tell me more about the body dysmorphia.

[Nick Pell]

I want to do, like, a whole show about body dysmorphia in men and.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Then another one about women, because I feel like this is the other silent epidemic. Women will get eating disorders and stuff. I want to talk about that.

[Nick Pell]

But guys do this. I mean, I guess it is an eating disorder. If you're eating 400 grams of protein.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Per day because you want to gain 25 pounds every year until you're 30, like, that's also disordered eating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a whole other episode. And I have opinions on the exact specific thing you just said, and you should have me on for that.

[Nick Pell]

Sure. Orthorexia. That's what it's called.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Guys are wearing their poop on a scale in the morning, Weird stuff like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So I definitely have body dysmorphia.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Dr. Mike talked about it on his episode. Dr. Mike Israel.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sure that much like me. Dr. Mike Israel looks in the mirror every morning and thinks, man, I'm such a small, skinny, fat sack of shit. That's it. I'm like 2:25. I've got, like, 15% body fat. Teenagers come up to me at the park and at the gym and stuff and are like, how do I get big? How do I get big muscles?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right. And you're like, why are you asking me, of all people, here at the dog park? Yeah. That's interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I got a wife who's constantly telling me how hot I am and how big I am and how great I look, and none of it connects. I just am like, well, I could be leaner, and when I get leaner, I look smaller. And, you know, your wife is the.

[Nick Pell]

Last person you can trust about how good you look. She's either the top choice or the last choice of who you can trust about your body.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She's the only choice. Honestly, that's the right answer.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Interesting, man. This is super fascinating.

[Nick Pell]

It's also insane to me, but I.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Don'T mean that in a derogatory way. I obviously believe you. I've seen it everywhere.

[Nick Pell]

All right, so with all the downsides why inject testosterone in the first place? Unless you have some super serious deficiency?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Body dysmorphia aside, if you didn't have that, would you be doing it? I don't know. I guess that's probably a separate question than the one I just asked.

[Nick Pell]

But why inject it if you don't.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Have some super serious deficiency in the first place?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Everything in life is a calculated risk. You can mitigate most of these symptoms and you're not necessarily going to have any or all of them. I'm not doing the better to live a day as a lion than a lifetime as a lamb thing, because go find someone on their deathbed and ask them if they think that's true. They probably don't. But do I take more than I should? Maybe to be the most stacked and jacked dude at the gym? Yeah. Can I imagine my life without test? Not really. I was miserable.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Nick Pell]

To be fair, I've seen you pretty miserable while on testosterone as well. So it is something you do occasionally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well, life circumstances matter a lot. And I think that the point, at least in my specific case, and this will probably resonate with other people, it definitely makes being miserable easier to deal with.

[Nick Pell]

So when does therapeutic TRT turn into doing drugs?

[Ryan Reynolds]

As I believe you said earlier?

[Nick Pell]

What's the line?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I meant to ask you this and forgot.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think probably 200. 200 milligrams is probably like the line above that. You're taking a dose. If you've ever blasted. That's meathead lingo. For 500 or more in a week. That's not that much.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The guys at Westside Barbell do their. Do the what? They want a total at the Powerlifting meet in a week. Like, that's nuts. But yeah, if you've ever done a blast. 500 or more in a week, you're doing drugs.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Nick Pell]

That's wild. So you talked to me about the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Whole blasting cruise thing. So for those who don't know, this is when you spend several weeks taking a huge dose, which is a blast.

[Nick Pell]

Then you taper it down to the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Semi normal dose, which is a Cruise.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm 100% on a cruise dose.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I'm fine with admitting that. That's kind of one of my things about it is I'm not gonna lie to myself about it. I'm on a cruise dose. I've blasted in the past. I'm not sure if I would again, but ask me after I make another kid. The other thing is, if you're taking anything Other than testosterone and an aromatase inhibitor to keep your estrogen in check. You're doing drugs? We typically refer to the other stuff as orals because they're almost all taken in pill form. I mean, somebody's gonna shoot a email over about the one secondary anabolic that you inject, but they're almost always pills. HGH is injected. There's probably other ones, but I honestly, like, I don't take them, so I don't really know.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see. So Testosterone, human growth hormone, aromatase inhibitors. What else? Have you ever taken anything else?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Peptides.

[Nick Pell]

What are those again?

[Jordan Harbinger]

They're short chains of amino acids that kind of hack your body to get it to produce more of a hormone that you want to have. I'm actually on an IGF cycle right now.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Insulin, like, growth factor?

[Nick Pell]

Is that what that is?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I think that's what it is. That's like the peptide version of hgh.

[Nick Pell]

So wait, how is it different from HGH then?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So rather than just injecting hgh, I use IGF to tell my body to make more of it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see HGH again. Human growth hormone and igf, the insulin, like, growth factor tells your body, hey.

[Nick Pell]

Man, we need to pump out more.

[Ryan Reynolds]

HGH from your liver or whatever. So why do that instead of just injecting the hgh? I don't get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's supposedly safer, and I choose to believe that so that I can have traps in my ears. But supposedly it's safer. That's what they say. The experts, the doctors. And I don't honestly know if this is true or not of HGH, but you can also only take IGF for, like, 912 weeks, and then your body's used to it. But what's cool about it is you keep the mass, you know?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I did check a lot of this with an endocrinologist just so people aren't like, oh, my God, this guy's just shooting from the hip. We talk casually, but we've checked this stuff. And so obviously you should talk to your own doctor. But we aren't just talking out of our butts here. I think that's important to note.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, and the thing, too, is, like, my wife, she is supportive, but, like, my wife is always. Whenever I'm like, I'm gonna do this, she just, Well, I trust you. You do your research. You're not stupid about it. You always know what you're doing when you do it. I've got a kid who I'd like to live to see, grow old and maybe meet My grandchildren one day. So I'm not just like, yolo, bro, whatever. Like I said, it's all calculated risk.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. Have you ever taken any other steroids?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Um, I have a bottle of Anavar. That's an oral that's most commonly used by women looking for that, like, CrossFit bunny look. But sometimes pro bodybuilders take it to retain muscle mass while they cut fat. It's been sitting in my medicine cabinet for like five years at this point, and the only time I ever took one was when I reached for it and thought that it was my bottle of Cialis.

[Nick Pell]

Okay, so that's a boner pill, not a steroid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Getting old sucks, kids. But I don't take orals for a few reasons. One of them is that a lot of them do have what you might call roid rage as a side effect, like testosterone. Even though I'm taking roid rage is. I think roid rage is overplayed, like, generally anyway, because not to get on too much of a tangent, but as a good example, there was a wrestler in the 80s named Dynamite Kid. He was actually Chris Benoit's hero. And Chris Benoit is probably another good example of this. Dynamite Kid's wife is. I don't want to hear about roid rage because he was always on roids. It was the CTE that made him crazy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The concussions and the brain damage.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's also what I think about. Chris Benoit is like football players and all of it. When you start talking about roid rage, it's a real thing, but it's also way overplayed when you're not factoring in the spot on the Venn diagram. That's guys taking high doses of roids and guys who basically ram their head into a brick wall 12 times a week. You have to be looking at both of those things. We've talked about this either on the show or in person, but I really suspect that there's a non trivial amount of guys who are in prison because they had a really short fuse and they started taking one of these oral steroids like Diana Ball, and they punched a cop or their sister, God knows what.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right. Yeah. As a lawyer, I usually advise my clients in the past anyway, not to assault police officers. Not because I currently advise them to do so, but because I'm not practicing.

[Nick Pell]

I should clarify that, but you're right. I know tons of guys that do steroids.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Some of them do mega doses. And it really does vary. They might have the thought, but they have impulse control.

[Nick Pell]

You're right. A lot of people with poor impulse control do end up in prison. And if they have poor impulse control and then they add steroids on top.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Of it, now they're aggressive and they have poor impulse control, so that's a pretty bad combination.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And there are orals that are specifically designed to make you more aggressive.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Check drops trend, right? Is that one?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, trend is just to, like, put tons of lean meat on your frame. I think check drops is specifically like boxers and MMA guys to like, make them like, super.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, there was something Tyson was taking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah, Tyson. I didn't want to say because I didn't want to put him on blast. But yeah, Tyson was on check drops.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think he talked about it, so I think it's okay. And if not, then I'm wrong and I apologize. I'm not trying to slander somebody, but I could almost swear I heard him talking about this particular thing on a podcast.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the most common beginner cycle for guys who are, like, getting serious about it is testosterone and D ball, which is the cool kid name for Diana Ball, that in combination with each other, is going to give you that kind of like, puffy, bloated, but also super massive 80s pro wrestler look. I thought about taking it and a guy I know who competes in strongman and takes a ton of it basically said, if you're a little temperamental, it's a really bad idea. And I took him as word because I definitely can have a short fuse and was like, I'm not cutting this fuse any shorter than it already is. Orals almost always result in liver damage. And perhaps more importantly for a man with a lustrous and leonine head of hair, such as myself, hair loss. You take orals, you're almost certainly going to go bald. Ah. And that was a deal breaker for me too.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, there's longevity issues we should link.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To anybody who's thinking about doing this. Gotta get down on that Dr. Mike YouTube channel.

[Nick Pell]

This is a man who's taken steroids and is, don't do it unless you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Know what you're doing, and you probably don't. He sort of readily admits, like, your longevity is going to be cut short because of it, but he does it for other reasons.

[Nick Pell]

If you want to live till you're.

[Ryan Reynolds]

95 and stuff like that, then this might hinder that. It's hard to say. The problem is it's hard to run a study for someone's entire life when they do this. But a lot of guys who really do a ton of this stuff have heart Problems and whatnot.

[Nick Pell]

But what's the upside then? Other than you get to look like.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hulk Hogan joined a biker gang like you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

To be honest, looking like the Road warriors would be pretty cool. But competition. You need to assume that all competitive strength and physique sports like strongman, weightlifting, powerlifting, powerlift, are filled with drug addicts. I mean, this is why Mark Henry left Olympic weightlifting, because he was tired of competing against guys on drugs.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see.

[Nick Pell]

So what about drug free competitions?

[Jordan Harbinger]

First of all, there's no such thing as a drug free competition. There are drug tested competitions. My old man had to take random drug tests for his job as an iron worker for years and he never failed one. He smoked pot every day of his life. Life. He tell me how he would pass them. If a random iron worker in Boston can pass them, then you know, a guy on the U.S. olympic Weightlifting Team can do it. Obviously there's somebody out there, but Russia got banned. Russia's not making a lot of friends in the world in general. But a bunch of these competitions aren't tested. Most of them are. You can go do a novice class strongman for funsies. I registered to compete in one before COVID hit and then it got canceled. But if you plan to compete in any serious level in an untested sport like strongman or powerlifting, if you're not doing drugs, you're going to lose. Chris Bell's documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster does a good job of exploring this topic and was produced by a guy I went to high school with. Shout out to Leland Anderson if you're out there.

[Nick Pell]

Nice.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I also remember Dr. Mike Isretel again, episode 1109. He told us that even if you.

[Nick Pell]

Take drugs and then stop because you have a competition, your body is still.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Getting an advantage from those drugs years later in the form of muscle memory.

[Nick Pell]

Because I was like, well, what happens if you take steroids in your 30s and then you don't lift weights for 10 years?

[Ryan Reynolds]

And then you're like, ah, midlife crisis and you get back in the gym. Do you get the muscle memory? Do you get the all the advantages of having built a ridiculous physique from those steroids? And he's like, yeah, there's definitely, I don't know what you would call it, like a afterglow that just stays with you because your body's like, yeah, I.

[Nick Pell]

Remember when I used to have giant ripped pecs and abs and shoulders. Maybe you won't get all the way.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There because your hormones are now at a normal level. I don't know how muscle memory works or whatever, but that stuff is still there somewhere.

[Nick Pell]

So guys are using hardcore steroids to win the local strongman competition at the county fair. That just seems kind of dumb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is. It absolutely is. Arnold Schwarzenegger talks about how steroids are a fact of life if you plan on competing, but he also says don't do them unless you're absolutely certain you're going to make a career out of your sport. Which I think is good advice for younger guys. I cannot stress enough that there is literally zero upside to taking drugs, to be the gnarliest looking dude at the gym and being able to swing your dick on social media about how strong you are when you're 25 years old.

[Nick Pell]

Alright, now a word from our sponsors, including Nicholas Pell's sketchy storage locker hormone emporium biz. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by the Defender. You ever meet somebody and instantly know they've been places that calm and chaos? I've driven through a storm and found the sunrise kind of energy that's the Defender in vehicle form. It's not just a car, it's a statement, a nod to the ones who don't wait around for life to hand them an adventure. They go and get it. And whether you're a seasoned trailblazer or just figuring out how to swap city limits for tree lines, the Defender is built to back you up. It's capable of great things just like you. It's a celebration of grit, curiosity and pushing past the usual. So if you've been waiting for a sign to finally take that trip, forge that new path or just see what you're made of, this is it. The Defender's ready when you are. To learn more, visit destinationdefenderusa.com this episode is also sponsored by Progressive. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice and Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive Car Insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. I've Got Homes.com is a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Shopping, it's not never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes.

[Nick Pell]

And what makes a home is More than just the house or property, it's.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The location, it's the neighborhood. If you got kids. It's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options.

[Nick Pell]

That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide.

[Nick Pell]

They also have details about local schools.

[Ryan Reynolds]

With test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratios. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.

[Nick Pell]

So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. Thank you all for listening and supporting the show. All of the deals and discounts and ways to support this podcast are all searchable and clickable on the deals page. Jordanharbinger.com deals if you can't find a code, email us. We'll happily give it to you. Because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. What about, what is it called? Sarms. For those who don't know, those are quasi level baby steroids. I guess they become more popular with the TikTok generation.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They're touted as a safer alternative to anabolic steroids.

[Nick Pell]

What are these?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is there any truth to that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, you know, it's all the danger with none of the actual results. Okay, SARM stands for selective androgen receptor modulators. So here's the thing with the SARMS versus steroids debate, and this is literally like what I tell every 16 year old kid who wants to know. Oh, I can go get SARMS at the supplement store. Should I do that? No. And you know why? Because if I want to run a cycle of testosterone and D ball, I know exactly what the risks are. Remember we talk about calculated risk. I know exactly what the risks are. I can calculate the risk. Guys have been doing this since at least the late 60s, probably earlier. Guys used to like drink tiger piss to get more testosterone.

[Nick Pell]

Get outta here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, for sure. Really, it was a thing in like the 30s, before they had synthetic anabolics. Guys have always been looking for some kind of an edge. But test and D ball guys have been doing since at least the 60s, probably the 50s, maybe the 40s. There's a massive body of existing scientific literature that studies at least 60 years of the long term effects of testosterone and D ball. Those Two specific ones, because those are the two granddaddies and the most commonly used. I know what it's going to do. I can calculate the risk. People have been doing SARMs for 20 years and we don't know what the long term effects are. And from what I've seen personally, I don't see the results. There's a term SARMS goblin. Because you look like a scrawny little goblin on this stuff. Who cares? What's the point? You're going to risk. You don't even know what you're risking. You don't even know what you're risking to look like what?

[Ryan Reynolds]

To get less results.

[Nick Pell]

It's like risks, black box results.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Definitely less. Why make that trade? That's kind of what you're saying. I see.

[Nick Pell]

Ok, so this isn't a sarm, but I remember back in my college days.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There was something called andro and I can't remember what it was, but it was like this over the counter crap you could get at gnc, which I.

[Nick Pell]

Remember asking guys that knew about this kind of stuff and I was like.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh yeah, is this good?

[Nick Pell]

And they were like, no, we sell it like crazy and it's flying off the shelves. But no, it raises your Testosterone for.

[Ryan Reynolds]

About 20 minutes, which is long enough for them to do a lab test and then claim it raises your testosterone.

[Nick Pell]

And then it has, by the way, all the side effects of using real steroids. But it really doesn't do anything for muscle building. But again, it's $80 a bottle and.

[Ryan Reynolds]

People can't buy enough of it because it's, it's quote unquote legal and it's supplement.

[Nick Pell]

So it's just the dumbest trade ever. And that kind of reminds me of this SARMS thing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I doubt anyone takes andro anymore because it's useless.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't think you can even get it anymore. I know a guy who he has boobs from taking Andro.

[Nick Pell]

Oh, gross.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They don't go away unless you get surgery.

[Nick Pell]

So yeah, that's called gynomastia or something.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yep. Yeah, you have to have the fat removed from under your nipples.

[Nick Pell]

Ouch.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That sounds brutal.

[Nick Pell]

What role does the fitness industry play in all this? Guys are again, they're on Instagram for.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Six hours a day looking at these disgustingly jacked and ripped dudes and they're.

[Nick Pell]

Developing feelings of inadequacy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No surprise, because they don't look like those guys just like guys who watch too much porn. They're like, my dick is small. I mean, you never hear the end of that.

[Nick Pell]

Do you think that the Instagram stuff, social media stuff, contributes to this in any way?

[Ryan Reynolds]

This dysmorphia that causes steroid use?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Probably. You've probably seen more ripped dudes today than most people who've ever lived saw in their entire life. I don't think it's the only factor, but I think it's definitely there. Here's the thing. There's this guy whose whole thing on YouTube is exposing fake natties. These are guys who say that they're natural, but they're definitely on gear juice, steroids, whatever. And he asked somebody at some event if he was natty or not. And the guy said, is anyone in our industry? And that's kind of it. None of these guys are natural. Yes, even your favorite who swears up and down that he is. You are not ridiculously jacked and ridiculously lean all year long and not on drugs. Just doesn't happen. You can be one or the other at any given time, but you're not going to be both at the same time all year round. Go right now and Google pictures of Arnold during his peak when he's off season. He has the body of a furniture mover. He's a big hulking hunk of man, but he's not ripped or shredded at all. He didn't have to be. He needed to look that way for an hour on stage. And now with Instagram, these guys got to look like this all year round.

[Nick Pell]

How much do you think social media.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is really driving all this stuff then?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it's a little overblown. I think the sheer amount of dudes that you have to look any given day, the scale matters. But I grew up in the 80s and I was super into, I was like obsessed with professional wrestling. I loved Hulk Hogan. I loved the Road Warriors. I love Bruce Beefcake. I loved all these big dudes. And like every other kid in the 80s, I loved Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was the biggest movie star of the era.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So Sly Stallone looked ridiculous in the Rocky movies too. It was like there was just veins on top of the veins on his.

[Nick Pell]

Abs and stuff with the crazy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I just wild greased up tan too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, he looks nuts in the, especially the third and fourth Rocky movies. But the whole phenomenon of guys looking at roided out freaks and wishing they had their bodies like, that's not new. You might see more of them in a given day, but that's not a new thing.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, we had action figures we were.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Supposed to look like and they all had Crazy apps.

[Nick Pell]

Bust out any GI Joe.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They were all like shirtless dudes with eight packs or whatever. It's totally ridiculous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was a He man kid, so.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, there you go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think people can really overstate this crisis of male image stuff. There's a YouTube fitness influencer, Alexander Bromley, and he has a really good video about it on YouTube that I recommend people go watch because he has a really balanced take on it. I think most of these takes are just clickbaity nonsense. Are there people who are experiencing serious mental health crisis because of what they see on social media? Probably. I think most statements that brought are true of somebody. But is there like a serious public health crisis that needs addressing because guys are bummed out that they don't look like somebody on Instagram? Like, no, I don't think so.

[Nick Pell]

Do you feel like people should be more honest about their steroid use?

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is a complicated one, Right. Because on the one hand you should.

[Nick Pell]

Be responsible, but on the other hand then you might encourage it. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're right, it is complicated. So let's take a guy like the Rock. He does not look natural to me. Yeah, but not remotely. He's huge. He's giant. He's got peat genetics. I'm not denying that. Like he's an incredible specimen of man. But you know, he comes out and says that he's on steroids. Every 16 year old gym rat on planet Earth is going to be buying steroids off sketchy guys my age in the gym locker room. And I think on a certain level, the responsible and ethical thing for him or somebody else in his position to do is to lie about it, which is probably what he's doing now.

[Nick Pell]

The Jordan Harbinger show does not take any position on Dwayne Johnson's alleged steroid use.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, he supposedly had to take months off WWE to get his gyno boobs cut off. So there's that.

[Nick Pell]

The Jordan Harbinger show also does not take any position on Dwayne Johnson's alleged steroid use nor his alleged breast reduction surgery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, okay. If he's on drugs, he absolutely should lie about it. I would hope he would do that.

[Nick Pell]

That's an interesting point. So I'm a little torn. I think I agree, but I don't know if I agree. I genuinely don't know.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I haven't given it enough thought. But I see your point about how.

[Nick Pell]

Guys in the position of the Rock or whoever do have some kind of responsibility and a lot of people go like, they didn't ask for that. Yeah, you kind of did when you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Became a wrestler for kids, which is what it is. And then you became a movie star.

[Nick Pell]

Like, you don't get to choose if you want responsibility.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When you're an A list celebrity. You just have fame and thereby responsibility.

[Nick Pell]

But do you feel the same way.

[Ryan Reynolds]

About Johnny Meathead on Instagram who's just look at me, I can do a handstand on this cliff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think that people who aren't the Rock should let their conscience be their guide in this respect, but also should take into account what we said about the Rock. The main thing is that I think people who are following these guys on Instagram or TikTok or whatever need to be a little more savvy and not be so surprised when they find out that the Liver King is on the sauce.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, y' all have seen the Liver King. He's the most ridiculous person on Instagram. He's got muscles on muscles.

[Nick Pell]

He's all bright red and he's got.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The beard and he's always like biting into, I don't know, a cow's raw liver. The dude's like 50% parasites basically by now.

[Nick Pell]

But yeah, he didn't get jacked merely.

[Ryan Reynolds]

By using the line of supplements that.

[Nick Pell]

He himself sells for a living. So again, this is the guy who.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Claimed that he was gigantic and lean enough for 8 pack ABS with veins.

[Nick Pell]

On them because, oh, I'm just eating all this organ meat.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And somehow people believed him and then he got rich AF off of a supplement line which is supposed to be like organ meat powder, whatever.

[Nick Pell]

Of course, his emails were later leaked.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And he's on enough steroids to kill an elephant. And he kind of did this like fake apology and then was like, you know what, nevermind, I'm just a con man. Here we go.

[Nick Pell]

Go.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's kind of where he is now, allegedly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think that there's this kind of combination of ignorance and wishful thinking. Ignorance, because I think that people just don't really know what's possible and what's not possible without the juice. If you want to see the limit of what the human body is capable of without juice, this is peak human genetics. I. E. Not you. You need to look up a guy named Eric Bugenhagen.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know who that is, but I'm googling. And he's an absolutely massive, you're right.

[Nick Pell]

Pro wrestler looking dude.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Just absolutely gigantic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And he's definitely not. Oh, I could look like this guy with enough hard work. No, you can't. He's a genetic freak. You would not look like him. No matter how much you lift, no matter what you eat, and probably not even if you do all you have the world's perfect drug regimen. It's genetic. I've been trying to look like him for years. I am never going to be as big as Eric Bugenhagen, no matter what I do.

[Nick Pell]

So people saw Liver King and wanted.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To think that if they just put in enough hard work and dialed in their diet that they were going to look like that.

[Nick Pell]

And it's kind of like, well, no, dude, you're not even going to look like that even if you did take steroids.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because genetics still play a role.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And there are some influencers that are a little more candid about their PED use. I think that's honestly a step in the right direction, provided that it's coupled with the negative side of things. And I wanted to give Dr. Mike a shout out because he's honest about it in a way that includes, like, these are the trade offs. There's other guys who are just like, yeah, I'm on steroids. But he's good about this, is the balanced reality of it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. Again, he was on episode 1109. He's coming back on the show. I do think he does a good job walking the line. He's like, I will die younger because of this. I made the choice to do that. I'm a professional and you shouldn't do it. And then he shows things like, here's.

[Nick Pell]

Me getting surgery to remove skin.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And the changes that have happened to his body, good and bad, it's really.

[Nick Pell]

He's a really good person.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Actually, you know him, I just watch his content. He has really good energy. And to be honest, Soviet Jews are some of the most awesome people I've ever met. And he's one of them.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, it's funny that you should say that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good. Dude backed hard. Yeah. They're a wonderful contribution to our country just as a group, but especially Dr. Mike. So to circle back to the fake natty thing, which is guys pretending that they're natural when they're not. There's this other phenomenon of movie stars getting just ridiculously, insanely jack and spread it out of nowhere. If a guy gets insanely shredded, just lean and muscular, that could just be diet and exercise. If a guy is super jacked after the age of 30 and also has like striated shoulders and an eight pack all year round, there's a chance he's on juice that approaches total Certainty. This is not a thing people do without chemical enhancement.

[Nick Pell]

I feel like to a certain degree.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It'S become a lot more normalized. Thanks in part to. I hesitate to say this, but like the Joe Rogan and company who's just another one of these guys who are super loud and proud about the fact that they use testosterone and I think also human growth hormone, for better or for worse, right? He didn't want to lie to people, but it's okay. Does this encourage other people to do it? And it's like he's stuck between a rock and a hard place with that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, even if he hadn't admitted to using human growth hormone. That dude's head on news radio versus Today.

[Ryan Reynolds]

His head?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, man. His noggin. John Travolta is another one. Man. You just don't grow two full hat sizes when you're 45 years old. Hgh.

[Nick Pell]

Yeah, John Travolta does have a huge head. Good call.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And he didn't used to have a huge head, did he?

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's an interesting point. You're. The dude is half forehead.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Go watch Staying Alive. It's a wonderful film that everybody hates for some reason. But anyway, HGH grows everything in your body, including your organs, which is one of the reasons why it's so dangerous. But you know, Joe Rogan is Oprah for dudes under 50, so I would say he endorses it. But like you said, he's very open about his TRT and HGH use, which I think the transparency part of that is very cool. I also think that there's definitely an aspect of human psychology that sees someone else doing something and then feels like they've been given permission to do it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

100% agree with that.

[Nick Pell]

How does this tie into the overall.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Anti aging thing that we see all over the place now? I mean, that sounds like another episode of Skeptical Sunday.

[Nick Pell]

From blood boys to drugs to supplements.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Man, what the hell?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I don't know that it's going to make you either appear younger or be what they call biologically younger. I suspect it's going to do the opposite in both cases, but I don't know. But my friend Jack Donovan wrote a book called the Way of Men. You may have heard of him. He once called TRT vampire life, meaning that you're going to feel 19 until you're 60 years old, which is great. At a certain point, you do have to stop taking it, or at least highly advisable, because your body might be able to handle having blood the consistency of used motor oil at 55. But you know, you approach retirement age, it's going to get a little older.

[Nick Pell]

Ugh, that sounds gross.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The thick blood thing freaks me out too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Man, you should see my blood bag when I go to the. Anyway, you might have some increased vitality and feel young again, but I don't know any evidence that exists that it actually makes you younger in any meaningful way.

[Ryan Reynolds]

How is this all different from women taking hormones during menopause, for example? Again, we got to do a whole show about that, but about menopause.

[Nick Pell]

But how is the TRT thing different.

[Ryan Reynolds]

From hrt, menopause stuff?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't think it really is in any significant way, though. Like you said, that's an episode for another time. But also, like you said earlier, there's a whole school of thought among certain doctors that, well, getting old sucks. You just need to deal with it. And in my opinion, TRT is no different from women taking hormones to deal with menopause or even diabetics taking insulin.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see. What about all the side effects we talked about? Doesn't that make it different?

[Nick Pell]

Insulin doesn't have physical and mental side.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Effects that can negatively affect your life and your longevity and stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, here's the thing. If a drug doesn't have side effects, it's not a drug, it's a snake oil. All drugs have side effects. And consumers and medical professionals make decisions about whether or not the benefits of the drug outweigh the side effects. Some people don't have any. Some people have sides that are pretty minor that they barely notice. Some people have side effects that are so bad they start looking for alternatives to solve their problems. But all drugs have side effects.

[Nick Pell]

I think that's a pretty fair assessment, honestly. You're not just going to get something.

[Ryan Reynolds]

For nothing in nature, especially so.

[Nick Pell]

You've pushed TRT on me in the past.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I say that tongue in cheek.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I have. Absolutely not.

[Nick Pell]

That's true.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You haven't pushed it on me. That's fair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've simply told you things I probably shouldn't repeat on our family friendly podcast about what it's done for my life.

[Nick Pell]

But you are pretty balanced about trt.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Even in private conversation, I should say. But ultimately I've just decided the downsides are not worth it for me.

[Nick Pell]

Especially the part where you're basically a steroid addict. I was about to pull the trigger on this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I was like, oh, I should probably get trt, blah, blah, blah. I can't even remember why. It was one of the many dumb reasons that everyone has oh, my levels are a little bit lower, even though.

[Nick Pell]

I totally feel fine.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And then my brother in law showed me a Dr. Mike video. This is years ago about why you should not do trt. And this is the first I'd ever seen him. This is a couple years ago. And not only did that make me a Dr. Mike fan, but it also.

[Nick Pell]

Scared me well away from from trt, at least for the time being.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a big one. We haven't talked about the steroid addict aspect. Coming off of testosterone is like coming off of heroin or SSRIs, you know, like Prozac and its cousins. You can't just randomly decide you don't want to take it anymore and then throw your gear in the trash. You need medical supervision to start coming off, and if you don't, bad things are going to happen. And that's definitely something to consider if you've just decided on the basis of this episode that TRT is the answer to all your problems.

[Nick Pell]

When you come off testosterone, you need.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To do what's called post cycle therapy or you're going to suffer from severe depression, fatigue, libido collapse, which is as.

[Nick Pell]

Horrible as it sounds.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It could be months actually before your normal testosterone levels resume, if they ever do at all.

[Nick Pell]

It depends on your age and your genetics.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's super scary. And the thing is, post cycle therapy might not even work.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Especially if you've been on Juice for years and years, right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's right. I think the biggest takeaway here is that TRT could potentially improve your quality of life. But also you don't get something for nothing in the natural world, especially anything else. There's gonna be drawbacks, and one of.

[Nick Pell]

The drawbacks is that once you pop.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You kind of can't stop because your body's not just gonna pick up the slack.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, you don't get something for nothing is just like a general guiding principle of reality.

[Nick Pell]

So where can our listeners find out.

[Ryan Reynolds]

More about testosterone, whether they need more of it?

[Nick Pell]

I'm happy to refer people to the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Clinic that I use where they don't just like hardcore push stuff on you. Again, I don't take testosterone, but I take other stuff. And they've got real doctors there.

[Nick Pell]

So if anybody's interested in this, just.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Email me jordanordanharbinger.com, but what do you recommend? If people just want to research more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

About this, there's information everywhere. It's worth talking to your doctor about. But like I said, a lot of them just don't care that you're slowing down as you get older, but an increasing number of especially younger doctors are more open to the idea of people using trt, even if it's just for what we've called optimization. Talk to your doctor if you don't get the answer you want for a clinic. A lot of these clinics are fine, by the way. I use one for my endocrinologist and I have zero complaints about it. I wouldn't be able to advise anyone on where to find a good clinic or how to tell a bad one, but.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So where did you find your good clinic?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I used your affiliate code.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Dude, nice. I don't even know if I have a code. I think I just have to introduce people to them. And again, I'm happy to do that for people because finding a bad one is. Yeah, can be really bad.

[Nick Pell]

And people can simply again, email me. I'll point them in the right direction.

[Ryan Reynolds]

FYI, again, I am not taking testosterone. The clinic does offer that if that's what you're after or that's what you need. I use other things to help keep my testosterone and hormone levels up that are not testosterone. I don't really want to get into the details on that because most people don't care.

[Nick Pell]

And by the way, if you're under 35, you almost certainly do not need.

[Ryan Reynolds]

To be messing with this stuff at.

[Nick Pell]

All because when you're like 15 to 35, your body is a testosterone mega factory anyways. Would you agree with that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. If there's any teenagers listening to this.

[Nick Pell]

Like, for the love of God, stay off the juice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just don't I get asked. Kids asking me about this all the time at the gym don't. Yeah, you're 16 years old.

[Nick Pell]

It basically won't do anything and you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Get all the negative side effects and it's expensive and it can hurt you.

[Nick Pell]

So whether you're considering trt, you know somebody who is, or you're just wondering.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Why it seems like every guy on Instagram looks like he's been airbrushed onto a protein tub.

[Nick Pell]

We hope this episode gives you a clearer, more honest look at what's really going on.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And thanks to Nick for helping me.

[Nick Pell]

Inject some clarity into a super complex topic with a lot of cultural baggage. Thanks, Nick.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Pleasure to be here.

[Nick Pell]

Thanks, everyone for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes, straight to me. Jordanordanharbinger.com show notes on the website, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer and sure as heck not a doctor. So do your own research before implementing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Anything you hear on the show.

[Nick Pell]

Consult your doctors before you start taking stuff you bought from a storage unit.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Off the side of the road in Tempe.

[Nick Pell]

And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Here.

[The Zebra]

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