Brad Meltzer (2:58)

Basically, you're screwed is what you're saying.

Jordan Harbinger (3:00)

Well, I'm going to squander most of the opportunity. Not even scratching the surface of your written work, because I love the commencement speech that you gave at our alma mater here at the University of Michigan. I'd love to talk about that. It became your book Make Magic, which we'll link in the show notes. Now your publicist is happy and we can talk about whatever we want. So how did this happen? Tom Brady obviously was too expensive. What else?

Brad Meltzer (3:18)

The truth was, is you got to get nominated for it. And I went to Michigan. You went to Michigan, Right. We. And they asked me to do it. And when I went to go do it, there are 70,000 people in the stadium. I'm focused on one because my son was graduating that day and he was in the 14th row and I could see him. And when I told him that I was going to be the speaker at Michigan for his commencement, he was like, why'd they pick you? He said, Tom Brady wanted to get him. And then he said to me, I'll never forget, said, it's like a 13th seed winning March Madness. And I was like, you know what?

Jordan Harbinger (3:49)

Deep cut.

Brad Meltzer (3:50)

Proud to be the 13th seed on behalf of all of those who root for the 13th seed. And it was just the kind of speech of a lifetime. You got to get nominated to do it. And I got nominated, and it was one of those life changing things. Because when I was done giving it, all I cared about again was one review, which was my kid. And he loved it, to my surprise, because nothing I really do. Usually he reads my books. And I'll be like, dad, this one's actually good. And I'm like, actually, what about the rest? Yeah, what's wrong with the rest? But all these people started asking me for the content of the speech. They were like, give me the text of that speech. They tracked down my sister, who has an unlisted phone number, and they found her number and said, I was in a stadium today. I saw your brother. You don't know me, but I want the text of that speech because it inspired me so much. And I've been doing this 25 years. No one's ever asked me for the text of anything I've ever said. And I think the Michigan, you know, Legion. And just, you know, people, I think, are starving for inspiration right now. And so that was a bit of magic for me.

Jordan Harbinger (4:44)

Your son probably thought, okay, this is going to be good, because he might embarrass himself and it'll be worth it. Like, I'm kind of trying to get his mindset, being there with his friends.

Brad Meltzer (4:52)

Yeah, him and his friends got there early, and I think they literally, like, either he's going to fail and we're going to have the best. Like, look at dad. Be a dope, or. And I think he was hoping for it to be great. And, you know, the speech was about magic. And obviously, real magic doesn't exist, but there are things we can't explain. And when you talk to magicians, there are only four types of magic tricks. You put aside illusions and escapes. There's only four types of tricks. One, you make something appear. Two, you make something disappear. Three is you take two things, you make them switch places. And the fourth magic trick is take one thing and you turn it into something else. The hardest trick of all, transformation. And I went through each one, and we could talk about, you know, what you make appear and what you make disappear. It was the third magic trick that I said, you know, was making two things switch places. And I said, here, let's talk about empathy. Because that's what empathy is, right? It's switching places with someone else and putting yourself in their shoes. And I told this story that I've never told before. Jordan. Even my wife was like, I never heard that story. And it was that When I was 13 years old, my dad lost his job, lost everything, and we had nothing left. He had no money, and we had to move in with my grandparents in Florida. So he moved to Florida just because it was a free place to live. He had twelve hundred dollars to his name. Couldn't even afford the security deposit. And it was six of us. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself and my two grandparents in a one bedroom apartment. And it was a disaster. We're sleeping on the floor. And not just for like a weekend or a week. It was a month. And everyone in the building was trying to get us evicted because they're like, you can't have six people in a one bedroom apartment. And everyone was trying to get us kicked out. And this one neighbor across the hall from my grandmother, she saw what was happening to us and she said, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna move out for a couple months. You're gonna take my apartment so your family can have some peace. So we won't be evicted. It was the nicest thing, to this day anyone's ever done for me and my family. Yeah, and I remember her name as Mercy. But as a kid, I always heard it as Mercy. And make no mistake, mercy and empathy is what she was showing us. And today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with has become sport in our culture. Yeah, but cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of we weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is being kind and showing empathy. And I said those words as part of the speech. And you, you've done enough talking. You know when like a good joke you hope is going to hit or when you think they're going to laugh in an audience. I didn't know it was brand new story never told before. And the audience just reacted in a way that 70,000 people. I felt that energy coming off them and I was like, what was that? And I think as a culture, we're just starving for kindness right now. We're starving for empathy. And I don't say that proudly. I say it's sad to me. And I think make magic as a concept, you know, the book is all the magic tricks, and it's just a book of inspiration you can just put on your desk and you need it. It's like $10. I mean, it's just a beautiful little book. And we said we want to give people a little bit of magic and teach them how to be magicians these days.

Jordan Harbinger (7:48)

Why do you think people are so starving for kindness? I mean, obviously because of the lack of kindness. But what this might be just too far out of field but what do you think has caused that? Because I remember when I was younger, people being. And this could just be, you know, one of those cognitive biases of time passing, but I do remember people being nicer. Maybe September 11th helped with that or something, but it was like the year 2000 through the year 2010 or 15 or so, people were just nicer. I lived in New York, too. It's not exactly known for people being super friendly. And I thought I had that experience.

Brad Meltzer (8:21)

No, 100%. Listen, when you were. I remember I was in D.C. for 9, 11. I remember if you saw anybody wearing a uniform, and I'm not talking about just soldiers, but I'm talking about the fire department or police officer, you'd be like, thank you, ma' am. Thank you, sir. You'd thank people, shake their hands. And not that we need a disaster to be kind. We certainly were in that. I think what's happened is I don't want to blame everything on social media. I mean, some of it is obviously, you know, look around and just see when leaders are just screaming at you every day. Social media is designed for one thing. It's designed to make us celebrate it, or at least the loudest people. So people who write in all caps and triple exclamation points, their stuff rises to the top. I am tired of people writing in all caps and triple exclamation points. The most sophisticated and smartest people I know are those who know there's always more to learn. But I think what social media does is it allows people to give opinions really quickly. We've become a culture of opinion, and we've lost the ability to actually take action. We think that, like, you know, I retweeted something, I've solved the problem. You haven't done anything. You haven't done anything. And I think what we've lost in that social media vacuum is that ability just to actually realize that everyone out there, even that miserable person who writes that, you know, on my social media, every once in a while there'll be someone who'll just be like, write some snarky comment to me. And I'll always write them back privately. Or they'll write to me as an email and say, I hated that book, or, I love this book, but I hated this one, or whatever they write. I always write back to them and say, listen, thank you for reading the book. Sorry you didn't like it, but I appreciate you giving it a chance. And Jordan, 99% of people will write me back immediately and go, I'm so sorry. I didn't even realize you were a person. And I've seen that so many times. I think that's the answer to your question is we've stopped treating each other as people. And so when we treat, you know, social media, we've treated as if we're communicating with people. But social media is just, as someone said, it's so brilliant. Is just like the wall in a stall in a bathroom stall. Writing on the wall in the bathroom stall that you don't put great thoughts up there. You just put out, like, whatever quick garbage you can put out. And if you would give credence to something written on the wall in the stall, you're a fool. And why give credence to what you see online? But we do, and I think it's just messed us up.

Jordan Harbinger (10:26)

I think you're right. I'm curious how writing a speech for a specific audience, like graduates, differs from your other writing projects. Because you write kids books, historical books, you know, the fiction. But writing a speech is a totally different thing. I wonder if it's intimidating or if you're just chomping at the bit for something different.

Brad Meltzer (10:44)

The first speech I ever wrote, actually was for this guy who hired me at AmeriCorps, America's national service program, Peace Corps for the United States. This guy, Eli Siegel, brought me in, and he wanted. The first speech he ever gave me was the University of Michigan. He was giving the commencement address at the law school. And I wrote my heart out and, you know, put everything into it. And I eventually got asked to do the commencement address at the law school, too. And I went back and read the speech because I was like, what did I do when I was 24 years old? Like, what did I write then first where I am now? At the very end of the speech, it said this. It said, one day, one of you will be up here giving that speech, and whoever that lucky person is, you will be just that, but lucky. And I was like, oh, crap, I'm the person. I was, like, speaking to myself 20 years later.

Jordan Harbinger (11:34)

That's pretty cool.

Brad Meltzer (11:34)

Which was crazy. And then I got to write. My second speech was to write for President Clinton when he took office that wanted to know about AmeriCorps. And so we had to write a speech for the White House. They asked you for the speech? And I wrote my heart into that speech. I, like, researched old speeches, looked at Teddy Roosevelt and presidents like Lincoln that I admire. And when you write for the president, you throw yourself into it. And back then to really date myself the president's speech would come by a fax the next morning. It would fax you all of his letter language. And I raced in like seven in the morning because I knew that's when they came to see what words that I wrote came out of the president's mouth.

Jordan Harbinger (12:08)

Oh, wow.

Brad Meltzer (12:08)

And Jordan, not a single word or verb or adjective was the same. Like, they had trashed the whole thing. But to answer your question for my speeches, I think they're no different than when I write my books. They're just more personal. When I'm writing myself to you, there's a part of the speech that I wrote a story that I never get to tell. And this is for the magic trick. It's about making stuff disappear. And I was like. I struggled with that. I was like, what do I make disappear? Everyone's like, make your fear disappear. Make these other things. And I didn't. I couldn't think of anything. And my wife finally said, stop trying to write a good speech and this will reveal my process more than anything is she said, just write your best advice for your kid.

Jordan Harbinger (12:44)

Yeah, nice.

Brad Meltzer (12:45)

And I was like, oh, that's great advice. So I went and told this story is that I said, this is true. When I was in high school, I used to work scooping ice cream at Haagen Dazs in the mall.

Jordan Harbinger (12:54)

That's such a high school job, too.

Brad Meltzer (12:56)

Everyone anyone scoops ice cream, right? And Haagen Dazs in particular. Like, 50 people were like, I worked at Haagen Dazs. Yeah. But this one woman comes up, starts snapping her fingers at me. She's screaming at me. She says, I want you to serve me right now. I said, ma' am, I'll be right with you. I'm helping another customer. She goes, no, you need to serve me now. I said to her, ma' am, I'm not serving you. Take your business elsewhere. I'll never forget. She screamed in my face, you're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. And I said to her, very calmly, I said, ma' am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. Right? And I used to laugh at that story, being like that woman never bothered me. But because of my wife, I had to admit and realize myself, it totally bothered me.

Jordan Harbinger (13:41)

Of course. Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (13:42)

That woman haunted. I carry that woman with me for 20 years because my dad struggled financially. And I thought, I'm going to have that life. I'm going to struggle, too. And I told that story. I said, don't make your fear disappear. Use your fear. Harness it. That woman was like rocket fuel to me. She drove me, she fueled me. I said, don't vanquish your critics. Prove them wrong. It wasn't me going, oh, how do I write a speech versus writing a book? I was just like, that's just the best advice I have for my kid is like, vanquish your critics and prove them wrong.

Jordan Harbinger (14:10)

You're right. Proving somebody wrong requires you to really go through all the steps to actually achieve something, as long as it's something you actually want to do. I suppose you could get caught in that trap, too. But it seems like a good way to harness this, because you're right. That woman lived rent free in your head for quite a while. She's probably been dead for decades. I mean, anybody that miserable doesn't have a.

Brad Meltzer (14:28)

It still bothered me.

Jordan Harbinger (14:28)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (14:29)

The thing is, if you look at the social science behind it, when it comes to people telling you and criticizing you, telling you you can't do it, this is what the social science says. Because I looked it up. I was like, I want to know if it's just my experience or something bigger. And here's what social science says. If someone tells you you're not good at something, as long as you don't think, as long as they're not someone you respect, it will actually be better for you because you will try to prove them wrong. If it's a mentor or someone you believe in and they say you're not good at it, it crushes you. It's why people on a football team, like the Michigan football team, right? The moment everyone says that team, count them out. Oh, my gosh. That's why we win. Because you're like, this is it. Let's go. And that's what that woman was. She was that woman who I didn't respect her. I didn't know her. I didn't think anything of her. So when she told me no, it just became the thing that lifted me up. And I think, to me, the social science behind this stuff is what we have to look at, like, for empathy. As an example, I looked up the social science behind empathy. We were talking about, how do you have more empathy? Here's the secret. Empathy is malleable. So if you want to have more empathy, you just have to want to have more empathy. And I know it sounds crazy, but think of your freshman year of college. It's when you made the most amount of Friends? Why? Because you were open to making the most amount of friends. You decided, I'm going to do it. The problem is what we do right now is when we see bad news or we see something that bothers us on our feet, we shut down. The news is so bad, we shut down. Oh, that's another bad thing. On my feet. I'm going to shut it down. Don't shut down. If you think to yourself, I want to actually be helpful. I want to actually be out there for other people. People will come into your life. It is just the social science of it. It's amazing.

Jordan Harbinger (16:04)

I've thought about this a lot because when you're in college, you really take that for granted. I remember sitting in my dorm in South Quad in University of Michigan, and the first week or so you'll get a knock on your door every 10 minutes because all these people who get how to be social and popular are knocking on every door of the entire dorm, maybe even all the dorms, and they're introducing themselves to everyone and they're like, hey, my name's Jenny. I'm on the swim team. I grew up in Ohio. And you're just like, okay, cool. And then you see that person for four years and you're like, I know that person. And they probably have 10,000 friends. And I just remember thinking, I should have done that, but I was just too shy and too lazy. And I remember going to eat and guys would be like, hey, I'm in 426. Why don't you stop by sometime? And if you did, you became friends with them for like four straight years or for the rest of your life. And if you didn't, you just never talk to them again. It's one of those opportunities that's so artificial in our lives and so fleeting. So anybody who's in a position to take advantage of that, I really think you really should. And there's all kinds of people listening to this who are like, yep, didn't do that. What do I do now? And I've got some questions about that that I think we can get to later. But you're right. These sort of pivotal moments in our lives, we almost don't recognize them until it's too late, unfortunately.

Brad Meltzer (17:12)

Yeah. And listen, those pivotal moments are. You know, I didn't even think we were going to go into it, but, like, the first magic trick in the book is what you make appear. And this is exactly what you just said. You have to make the best version of you appear. We're all chameleons we act one way with our parents. We act one way with our friends. But there's those people that you're just your pure, honest, true self with. Those people who love you. No matter what you say, who you are, they got you. And you gotta surround yourself with those people. But the way to do that, it's amazing, is you have to listen and find those people who love you for your true self. And I can tell you, when I started writing, my first book got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers, and I got 24 rejection letters, which means some people wrote me twice to make sure I got the point.

Jordan Harbinger (17:58)

We're not sure if you opened it because we didn't hear from you. So we just wanna make double sure that you're not gonna.

Brad Meltzer (18:02)

We sent you a second one.

Jordan Harbinger (18:03)

Yeah, that's funny.

Brad Meltzer (18:04)

But my girlfriend at the time, she was like, yeah, you can do this. You're gonna. You're a writer. You're gonna write another book. She didn't laugh, right? She didn't say, you can't do it. She said, you can. And that's why I married her, by the way. But there's a Michigan social scientist. It's called the Reflected Best Self Portrait. And the idea is that when someone tells you that you can be a great version of yourself, you will become that version of yourself. You will literally see the best version. And you think of it with someone who is the first person who told you you were good at something, that first person who, like, you lock on that. And those people who see you in that south quad dorm when they come and say, like, hey, I'm on the swim team. Nice to meet you. That kindness they're seeing, they're radiating something at you that you do not forget. So I wasn't one of those people who had, you know, was going around shaking hands with everyone. I was like, that's not my style. But, boy, when I got it from a teacher or from that girlfriend, I was like, I want to be that person they see me as.

Jordan Harbinger (18:59)

Yeah, wow.

Brad Meltzer (19:00)

And you got to make that version of you appear.

Jordan Harbinger (19:02)

That's really good. It also. It seems like one of the best things you can do for somebody else is reflect their best version of them onto them. Not just accept it for yourself. But if you see somebody who maybe doesn't believe they can do something or live a certain type of life, there's a couple of people I know that are trying to move away from Russia where there's no opportunity. And they're like, it's just too hard, you know, it's just too hard. I don't know any other languages and I don't know what I'm going to do. And I have my family here. And I've just said, when I was your age, I packed up and moved to this place and I learned Spanish or whatever. And they're like, wow.

Brad Meltzer (19:32)

And.

Jordan Harbinger (19:33)

And one of them is moving. And I just. One of the things that he said was, well, if other people can do it, and you told me that you did it, I feel like maybe it's possible.

Brad Meltzer (19:41)

That's it. And listen, you're being. You know, every great magician has an assistant, right? But the key is, like, you need to be that assistant for your friends when they want to be the magician. You have to reflect that to other people. You can't just be the one taking it from everyone. And I love the fact that, like my college roommate who wanted to be a cartoonist, I was always. I wasn't because I was a good person, but I was like, you're going to be a cartoonist. Because why? Because he was my best friend there. The whole reason I became a writer is my 9th grade English teacher is a woman named Sheila Spicer. She was this amazing black woman who loved Prince and would play Prince all the time for us in English class. But what she said to me, she changed my life with three words. She said, you can write. And I was like, well, everyone can write. And she said, no, no. You know what you're doing. She tried to put me in an honors class. I had some conflict. She said, here's what we're going to do. You're going to sit in the corner for the entire year. Ignore everything I do on the blackboard. Ignore everything. Homework assignment, I give. You're going to do the honors work and thank me later. And a decade later, my very first book was published. And I went to her classroom with it. I knocked on the door. She said, can I help you? I said, my name is Brad Meltzer. I wrote this book and it's for you. And she starts crying. And I said, why are you crying? And she said, because I was going to retire this year. She said, because I didn't think I was having an impact anymore.

Jordan Harbinger (20:53)

Wow.

Brad Meltzer (20:54)

And I said, are you kidding me? I said, you have 3:30 students. We have one teacher. But that woman saw that thing in me again. I carried that around with me for a decade because that's why I was a writer. Like, here's the first person who said, you can do this. And, man, I'LL never forget that. So when I see people who are doing their thing, I'm like, I was just talking to about writing, and I said, they said they got three rejection letters last week. I said, I don't care. I got 24. Keep going. And those are easy words for me, but I hope that it can carry that in it, you know? I see it, man.

Jordan Harbinger (21:23)

Yeah. Wow. She must have been really, really happy. And also, way to ruin that class for sure.

Brad Meltzer (21:30)

Yeah. 100%. We were like, what an awesome class. We're doing nothing today.

Jordan Harbinger (21:34)

So did she end up retiring? I feel like you ruined her early retirement.

Brad Meltzer (21:38)

So she lasted 13 years after I went back to thank her.

Jordan Harbinger (21:43)

Wow.

Brad Meltzer (21:43)

So I highly encourage anyone listening. Let me tell you this. Think of the person who told you you were good at something for the first time. Think of someone who, like, raised you up. After you're done listening to this podcast, go thank them. You will not believe what comes from it. You will not believe. So I went back. She lasted 13 years after I went to say thank you to her, and they told me I got a phone call that said, she's finally retiring. And I was like, okay. Well, they said, you want to surprise her? I said, absolutely. The woman changed my life. I'm going to be at her surprise party, her retirement party. So I go to the thing. It's a Friday night, it's late in the day, and all she's got to do is accept the little crystal award they give her. Say, I hated half of you. I love half of you, and have a nice life. Right? Like, that's all she's got to do. And she doesn't know I'm there. I'm literally hiding behind a pillar so she can't see me. She gets up in front of everyone on this Friday afternoon and says, listen, for those of you who have said that kids have changed, that teaching is harder, that it's much harder than it used to be, it's not them. It's you. You're giving up. Do not give up on these kids. Do not give up on these kids. She gives a rallying cry like the end of Braveheart. Like, I mean, it was just like a Rocky movie. It was crazy. I was like, I wanted to pull a sword and sign up to be a teacher right there. And I'm like. And I was so nervous because I'm like, what if I go into this moment and she's not as good as I remember right then? I risked the whole memory, but she was better than I ever remembered. And she. Thirteen years later, after my thank you, she finally retired. She still gets a free book. Every book I publish, she gets for free. I send it to her house.

Jordan Harbinger (23:07)

She must love that. That must be like Christmas unwrapping something like this. You told the kid he could write. Now he's a. Now she's bread melted.

Brad Meltzer (23:14)

She surprised me at one event. They didn't tell me she was there. And she. One of my early events, they were like. I was telling them, they're like, talk about Ms. Spicer. I was like, how do you even know about Ms. Spicer? So I tell the story and they're like, well, what if she's here right now? And I went like a little curse into the microphone. I felt really bad. And she came out and she ran and hugged me. And it was like. It was the greatest book signing of all time. It's like, there's that person from ninth grade, you know, the very first person who ever told me I can write and you know, again, go say thank you. You will not believe what comes from it, I promise you that. And by the way, if they're dead, the person who inspired fired you find their kid. Because when my parents died, I can tell you that people would call me and tell me, hey, I remember this about your dad. And on those days, I get the greatest thing that I ever will get that year, which is a new story about my dead parents. And that's a gift. So don't let that hold you back.

Jordan Harbinger (24:01)

All right, folks, time to support our sponsors so my producer Gabriel can feed his crippling heroin addiction. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Constant Contact. When I started the show, it was because I wanted to follow my curiosity and have deep, meaningful conversations. What I didn't realize, I'd suddenly be the host, the booking agent, the business developer, and surprise, the marketing department. And marketing is a full time job on its own. That's why I recommend Constant Contact. Constant Contact is like having a mini marketing team in your pocket. Their platform is super intuitive. You can build and manage email campaigns, text messages, social media posts, landing pages, even event invites, all in one plays. Their AI content generator helps you go from idea to polished message fast. Add in customizable templates, automated sending, real time reporting with tools that actually help drive sales, and you got a system that works with you, not against you. It's also priced based on your contact list, so you're only paying for what you actually use. And with a 97% deliverability rate, your messages are landing in inboxes, not spam folders. Plus, their customer support is human. Like real people you can call if you're stuck. I've used Constant contact and I get why over half a million small businesses trust them to grow, stay top of mind and stay ahead of the curve. Get a free 30 day trial when you go to Constant Contact.com. try Constant Contact. Free for 30 days at Constant Contact.com Constant Contact.com this episode is also sponsored by Fay Nutrition. Let's have a little talk about nutrition. Not just dieting. I'm talking about how you actually fuel your body every day. Knowing what to eat is not always the hard part. It's doing it. Real life gets in the way. Kids, work, travel, whatever. If you want to know, hey, should I eat more protein, less carbs? It's best to ask somebody who actually knows what they're doing. And that is where Fey Nutrition comes in. Fey Nutrition connects you with an actual registered dietitian. You know, a real human who knows about this stuff to help you figure out what your body actually needs. And here's the part that really blew my mind. They take insurance. So over 95% of people pay $0. Yes. Actually zero. I checked out Feyne Nutrition. I love what they're doing. They matched me with a dietitian who helped me with my goals. Whether you're trying to lose a few pounds, manage stress eating, deal with gut issues, Feign nutrition gives you clarity in all the noise. These folks specialize in over 30 areas from sports nutrition to postpartum PCOS, diabetes, digestive issues, all of it. Having a personalized nutritionist used to cost big bucks, but not anymore. With Faye. Listeners of the show can qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting FayNutrition.com Jordan that's Fay Nutrition.com Jordan one last time. That's Fay Nutrition.com Jordan and make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. I know you're not booking for a podcast, probably. But look, this course is about improving your relationship skills as a whole. Building a circle around you that can help you in your career. I know a lot of you are like, I'm retired. I don't need this. The science shows that relationships are what make us happy. Live longer, healthier the course does all of this in a very systemized but very non cringed and easy down to earth way. Nothing awkward, nothing cheesy, very practical. It'll make you a better connector. It'll make you better at work. It'll make you better if you're gardening all day. Six minutes a day is all it takes. And hey, many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to that course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again, all free. No shenanigans@6minute networking.com. all right, now back to Brad Meltzer. It's funny, on my to do list is calling my middle school foreign language teacher who was also the football coach. He taught French, which I didn't love, but I started to realize languages were something I could maybe do. And then. And he taught Spanish. And I was not good at either of them, but I was good at football, which is shocking to most people, I'm sure. But I was the strongest kid in middle school, which is hilarious to think about now, by the way.

Brad Meltzer (27:41)

The strongest kid in middle school you've just conjured for everyone listening has. That's like saying the kid who used to drive their bike over like a little bike ramp to jump something. There's always the most dangerous kid. There's the craziest kid, there's the strongest kid. Like those are iconic moments.

Jordan Harbinger (27:55)

Yes. The strongest kid in middle school. And then you get to high school and you realize that it's not even close because everybody.

Brad Meltzer (27:59)

Right. Because there are grown men there.

Jordan Harbinger (28:02)

Yeah. There says full grown men there. So. Yeah. And I remember he was our football coach, so he spoke really frankly even when we were in class and he said something like, you know what, you're kind of dumb, but you're not stupid. Because I was always doing dumb things, you know, like dumb kid things and go, you know, that was dumb. But you're not stupid. I remember being like, oh. Because you know, in middle school you don't really know if you're dumb or stupid or smart or anything. Like you don't really necessarily know anything about who you are at that point. I also remember when I left middle school, we graduated in eighth grade and we're walking out the door on the last day and all the teachers are saying goodbye and you're, they're shaking your hand. I was like peak doing dumb shit at this point in my life. Like, I'm gonna do this and hang out with the. I didn't shoplift. But like my friends were doing that or like, they were doing vandalism. And I didn't do that stuff, but I did other dumb stuff, especially in school, like order pizza for everyone from a payphone and, like, just getting in trouble with, like, big time stuff. And I remember he looked at me very concerned and he goes, take care of yourself, man. And I was like, the concern in his voice was so alarming, by the way.

Brad Meltzer (29:05)

That is that. That's the parental equivalent of like, I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. That is a much worse weapon. Like, I remember my buddy Howie Robinson may rest in peace. We took his car for a joyride in high school. We were like, whatever, he's asleep. It was the first party someone threw where everyone was drinking and so everyone was passed out. So the people who hadn't weren't drunk at the time. The kid that was the driver, I came up with a great idea that said, let's go do donuts in the mall parking lot. I don't know why that was a good idea, but that seemed like a good idea. As we're racing around the mall, like, we're going full speed. I'm like, we're not going to make this turn. It's rain, pouring rain. And I'm like, we're not going to make this upcoming term. We're going too fast. And Howie had a. He was the first one that had, I'll never forget, a digital dashboard. Like the digital speedometer, which is so obvious now, like from Back to the Future. Yeah, it looked like Back to the Future. And so it. So it always read zero. So you couldn't tell how fast you were going, but I could tell. I'm like, we're going too fast for this turn. And my friend Doug was driving, is like, no, we're fine. I'm like, we're going too fast. And this kid, Smitty, because every group needs a Smitty, leans forward. It's 3 o' clock in the morning, goes, take it. And the car, as we go around the turn, the wheels slide. It just locks on the water. And we just start, like, astroplaning. And we hit the curb. We smash the curb. We get out of the car. We start now heading to a ditch that is a canal. I'm like, we're gonna go in this canal and die. And the car stops right before the canal. We get out. We're like, okay, the car's fine. It just has a little dent. We're okay.

Jordan Harbinger (30:36)

No way.

Brad Meltzer (30:37)

Okay. So now we repair the broken. The flat tires that are in the front. The tires blew. And we just think we're gonna tell everyone that they bumped into the car and that's it. And the car comes back, and there's $2,000 worth of damage. And Howie's mom says, tell me the real truth of what happened. No one backed into that car. The whole chassis of the car broke. Shattered. The car was six inches lower than you even realized. You dummies got into, like, a clown car. And the point of the story is, I go to my father, and now I need money, because we can't. We gotta pay for this. We have to take responsibility. I said, dad, I don't have $500 divided between the four of us. And my dad said to me, I'll never forget, like your coach said, I did far dumber things when I was your age. Just don't tell your mother. And that was it. And that was it. And if he would have screamed at me, I would have been like, whatever, old man. But the fact he was just like, you're not stupid, but you're dumb. Like, man, that hit me right in the chest.

Jordan Harbinger (31:29)

Yeah. But I listened, actually, to. To this guy. And it's funny, because I never really thought about any of that stuff until I was older. Now I'm 45. Right. So this is, like, more than 30 years ago kind of stuff, which is why I'm sure he's retired now. But, yeah, he was in pretty good shape as a football coach back then. He was an old guy to us, but he was probably, like, 35.

Brad Meltzer (31:48)

Oh, he's younger than you are now, Guaranteed younger than you are now. 100.

Jordan Harbinger (31:52)

Or you might have even. Not. Not even been 35 at that point.

Brad Meltzer (31:55)

Right. He was probably, like, 27 years old. And you were like, old man.

Jordan Harbinger (32:00)

I was like, this guy has whiskers. I mean, come on, people. Yeah, it's. That's so funny. It's so funny. And now that I think about it, none of those male teachers were married and stuff. They were probably too young.

Brad Meltzer (32:12)

Yeah, no, we. We had a teacher who was like. He was 22. He graduated from UNC, I remember, and I think he turned 23 when he was with us. And even we knew her. Like, you're a little young, aren't you? You know that? But anything above that is old. Yeah, it's a quick dividing line.

Jordan Harbinger (32:27)

Yeah, it's funny. So, yeah, I'm gonna call my middle school, which still exists.

Brad Meltzer (32:31)

Gotta call them. You've gotta track them down.

Jordan Harbinger (32:33)

Yeah, I think it'd be a lot of fun. It'd be a hell of a lot of fun. Tell me about this hall of Mirrors analogy where you see all versions of yourself. I love this in the book.

Brad Meltzer (32:40)

Yeah. This is the fourth magic trick. So in Make Magic, the fourth magic, so you make yourself appear, is the best version of yourself. What you make disappear is your fear. You harness your fear. The third magic trick is you switch place and find empathy. But the fourth magic trick is taking one thing and turn it into something else, which is transformation, the hardest one. And to me, when I was little, growing up, I loved the hall of mirrors. Some people love the hall of mirrors because they love seeing kids smack into the mirror. I loved it because I had hair back then, and it was glorious, first of all. But also I loved that in the hall of Mirrors, you can turn your head just slightly and all those versions of you would appear. I thought that was just the coolest thing ever. And to me, what we do, especially as you get older, is you start seeing the world like you're always right about things. And when you do that, then the world becomes hard and brittle and it gets static. What's far more important is to always be changing, always be evolving. Don't write in pen, write in pencil. And be unafraid to use the eraser again. The smartest people in the room are the ones who know there's always more to learn. And for me, I think that the only immutable fact is you should never be immutable. That's the key. And as long as you're doing that, like right now, you know, when you graduate college, think back when you were in South Quad. Those days, those early college days, you were open to the whole world. But as we get older, we just don't do that. And things calcify. And so I think the way to truly transform is to never stop transforming. Never think you know it all. Never think you have all the answers. You gotta always see yourself in the hall of mirrors.

Jordan Harbinger (34:16)

Endless possibilities, man, you're the king of metaphors, dude. You should consider being a writer. But that metaphor is really good. I love that. I mean, there's so much. Maybe I'm going through a midlife crisis or something, because all this stuff seems to really hit. And I don't know, maybe when you hear this from a commencement speech in college, you're like, okay, fine. But then when you're 45, you're like, oh, my gosh. It hits hard. A lot of people write to me. In fact, somebody just wrote in earlier this morning and said something along the lines of, I worked so hard during my school years to get into college. Then I worked so hard in college to get a good job. Then I worked a ton to get solid in my career. Now I'm. I forget how old this guy was. It was like 30 or 35. Some people that write in with very similar things are 40, whatever, and they feel like they haven't really lived their life for themselves in many ways, right? They were like, I'm. I didn't party, and I didn't go after girls, and I didn't go do the things that I wanted to do because I needed to get all these other things done. And they're kind of going through.

Brad Meltzer (35:11)

That's midlife crisis, man.

Jordan Harbinger (35:12)

That's a midlife crisis. Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (35:14)

That setup you just painted of, you know, I was in high school, and if I work here, I'll get a good college. If I work in college, you get a good job. I get a good job. For our lives. For so much of our lives, we think that life is an escalator, right? You're going to do that thing, and then you're going to move up the escalator and get a little higher. And then you do up and get a little higher, get a better job, get, you know, good college, get a good this, get the good house, get the good thing. But it's all bullshit. Life is not an escalator. Life is a trapeze. And sometimes you have to leap. It's not a meritocracy just because you do those things. That may be the path to get you into a good college. That may be the path to get you your first job. But after you do that, there is no escalator anymore. The escalator's gone. I believe this to my core. This is the advice I gave to my son. It's what's in make magic. It's what the whole thing is, is that you are the magician now. To do actual magic takes you. You're the one that matters. It takes time and intentionality. Things don't just appear and disappear by themselves. Doing magic, and this is the important part to remember, is not even something you do for yourself. It's a gift you give other people. If I can give you one gift, to that person who wrote in, you're the magician. That's it. You're the one Abracadabra. That's it. That's what we put at the end of the book. And to me, the only people who see magic are the ones who look for it. But if you keep just looking for, like, the new job or the new pellet or the new thing. That's not happiness. That's not joy. If the sentence starts, if I just got X, I will be happy, that's not happiness. That is not happiness in any way. That's just another thing you're going to try to acquire. What the happiness is is finding that best version of you. What the happiness is is putting your fears away and putting your critics away. What's happiness is showing some kindness and empathy. What's happiness is evolving and moving forward and always changing. That's all you got to achieve. And that's the advice I give my son. It's the advice I give him because it's the advice I need. I need.

Jordan Harbinger (37:05)

There's something to this, right? Because the acquisition of things and experiences is not going to make you happy. I mean, you're. Most people are constantly chasing happiness, but you're right, it's more about. I wish I could tell these guys in real time if you're 31 or 35 or however old this person was and you have a good job and you've achieved a bunch of stuff, and the thing you're missing out on is having lived your youth, which you still have, by the way, if you're 31, 35, whatever, how old this guy was. You have already proved most of your critics wrong by that point. Right? Like all the teachers that thought, like, oh, this guy, they're wrong because you have a good job and you have a good career. All those people who thought, oh, you weren't going to be able to make anything of yourself. All these people who thought you weren't going to make it this far. I mean, they're all wrong. It's actually perfect positioning. And at age 45, I'm starting to think that you have this feeling that you didn't do enough in your youth. You probably have that feeling no matter what. Unless maybe there's some people that have only lived their whole lives for themselves or their lives, like 45, no kids, they live 20 years abroad, bumming around Southeast Asia. But then they. They have other regrets, like the fact that they have no money and no home and, you know, their circle of friends is sort of ever changing and they've got no. No place that's really home for them. I mean, that maybe those people have other regrets at that point. I'm not sure, but I think it's just something that happens when you're this age. This is totally off your beat, but why do you think this happens to people at age 40, 35, 40, whatever it is. What is going on in our lives where this happens?

Brad Meltzer (38:25)

I think it's just the life cycle, right? I had this fascinating conversation with the dean of the graduate school because I was asking a similar question to them and they said, think of your high school reunion, think of your college reunion, whatever they said, all reunions, this is what we see. Because I have to manage these reunions every year, the five and ten year reunion. Everyone's there to impress everybody else. Look what I got. Here's my hot wife, here's my hot husband, here's a picture of our house, like, here's the stuff we got. And then they say at the 20 and the 25 year reunion, people have been through some crap, right? You don't get to your 25 year reunion without like having some major loss in your life, whatever it might be. It may be a parent sick, it may be a parent's dead, but you've been through some stuff. And then you get to like the 35, 40 year reunion and you're like, you know what, I'm chill now because I realized all of that stuff I was worried about in those previous unions doesn't matter. And he said, at the 50 year reunion, they're just happy to be there because so few people are there. And I was like, this dean just dropped some knowledge on me. I firmly believe to my core that in life you make the same mistakes over and over. And it's like, whatever you believe in, God, Buddha, whatever you believe in is just checking to see, are you ever going to learn from it? You're going to make the same mistakes over and over in life. And we're just waiting to see, do you learn from it? And I think for a while we get caught up in the, you know, again, we're going to acquire, acquire, acquire. And then we say, like, no, I'm not fulfilled with that, so it must be that I haven't acquired enough. And then you finally get to the point where you're like, it doesn't matter, that's not what happiness is. And I think we have to get to that point as a culture where we stop looking, you know. And I think in many ways, like you and I were talking offline about jfk. Like JFK was like the first celebrity president and every president's famous, but JFK was the first one who like had the beautiful wife and the beautiful life and the multiple houses, and he was rich and he was famous in that Hollywood famous way. And I Think as a culture, the way we've gone since the 60s is we've been trying to kind of like, cosplay that role. And for some people, it's like the Reagan's. For some people, it's the Obamas. For some people, it's the Trumps. Right? It's like that famous thing, but they're all just cosplaying jfk. And the reason is because Camelot and that perfect light, it's not real. It's totally shiny on the outside, but it's not at all real. It's fake inside. It's a sign of maturity to finally realize what really matters. And it's never the thing. It's never the thing ever. I remember I spent a lot of time being like, if I can just get this. And it never made me happy. What made me happy was, like, when I was true to myself, when I was honest. If you look at my early interviews, I'm just like, there's no honest answers. I'm just, like, trying to hold on to what I got. And now I'm like, no, I was scared. I was terrified. I didn't know if the book was going to work. The second book failed. I'm not afraid. I'll show you all the stuff that's bad. My 24 rejection list, I'll hold them all out for you to see. And all those stories I've told you today are all things I would have never said in the beginning because I'm like, did they make me look weak? And I realize now that those are the best things that ever happened to me because they made me who I am.

Jordan Harbinger (41:26)

Do you ever fear irrelevance? Not just as a creator, author, but just as, like a human? I think that's where the midlife crisis comes from. From so many people, right? They think like, oh, my gosh, it's all downhill from here. I'm going to die soon. Even if they're like 30 years old. And it's not true. I think a lot of it comes from that fear. Like, there's just. There's no round two.

Brad Meltzer (41:44)

No. That's a profound question. Not to get all nihilist about it, but no one's going to remember anybody.

Jordan Harbinger (41:49)

That's for sure true.

Brad Meltzer (41:50)

I tell my kids, president Carter just passed away. And they're like, who's President Carter?

Jordan Harbinger (41:55)

Right.

Brad Meltzer (41:55)

Who's President Reagan? Like, anything that I love, the most famous person when you were a kid will be forgotten. The most famous person in the culture right now will be forgotten. It's like mentioning a 1920s film star, it's not that long ago, but they're gone. We sweep the clean. And what you have to realize is the only thing to me that matters and the only relevance that matters is how you make people feel. Your opinion doesn't matter. What you do matters. Like, what your emotion is, is whatever. You can feel whatever you want. But when you do that kind thing for someone else, like for Ms. Spicer, her impact on me is forever. And we know, like, you have an impact on your family and you can have an impact on your friend, but you don't even realize the impact you have on your community. You, Jordan, don't realize how many people right now, they know your name. You will never know their name. You'll never know who they are, but something they heard on your show will. Absolutely. They're carrying with them as that good piece of advice, that golden rule advice that they hold in their heart. You don't know who they are, but they're going to carry with them for 30 years. And you have to realize that's a hell of an accomplishment. And that means that everyone out there listening, there's someone that you've affected or that you were kind to or hopefully are going to be kind to, that they're going to carry that around with them. That is, to me, the far bigger legacy than the look what I got.

Jordan Harbinger (43:14)

I think it's tough because a lot of people are worried about the tangibles instead of the intangibles. But you're right, it's kind of that intangible stuff that makes you feel complete.

Brad Meltzer (43:21)

I come from a family where money was. I knew you don't answer the door at the end of the month because my sister would say that's when the rent was due and we didn't have it. I knew you didn't pick up the phone at the end of the month because that's when the bill collectors called. It's not intangible.

Jordan Harbinger (43:36)

Right. It's not unimportant. Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (43:37)

That is important shit that, you know, I remember dealing and worrying about the safety of our family and can we afford that and all those things. But I can tell you, my parents never, ever to the day they died, ever got out of money issues. But eventually they also realized that, like, us as their kids and the kindness and the things that they gave us were the most valuable things they ever were going to have in their life. It was never going to be about the money. They were never going to require, no matter how much I would give them or Help them or do anything, they would blow it. It just wasn't their thing. But eventually, even my dad had to make peace with, like, you know what? I raised a kid with the right values, and maybe that's the thing that I should have been realizing was the real gift. I do think, though, the core of it is you gotta love yourself for who you are and not be focused on what you don't have. And I struggle with that myself. Like, it took me a long time to love myself just for who I was and not trying to be someone else. My lesson that I used to do over and over in life was I would always be chasing these things I couldn't have. Right. I'd be like, oh, I want to be in that group that doesn't. Oh, they don't want me. I'm going to try and get in there. Or I want to. I want to be liked by that well known person. I'm like, I don't care anymore. Like, now when I get invited to all these things, I'm like, I don't want to go. That's a night away from being with my.

Jordan Harbinger (44:49)

I can relate, man. Yeah. People will say, you're leaving money on the table. And I go, good. I want to leave money on the table because that means I'm spending more time playing Legos on the table.

Brad Meltzer (44:58)

Yeah, dude. I mean, I could. There's a Lego 1966, Lego Batmobile and LEGO space thing that's right beyond where this camera is. And my son and I building the LEGO Death Star in my kitchen, like, those hours are far more priceless to me than anything. And it cost me $30 at Walmart. Not the LEGO Death Star. That sucker was expensive.

Jordan Harbinger (45:18)

The LEGO Death star was not $30 at Walmart. No, that was $380.

Brad Meltzer (45:21)

Let me tell you, by the way, let me tell you the best LEGO Death Star story is my son wanted the LEGO Death Star when he was really little. And I'm like, yeah, everyone wants a LEGO Death Star. You're not getting the LEGO Death Star. That's like a $300 set. And I said, you save for it and you could buy the LEGO Death Star. I'll buy the smallest set, but you have to save for that. I want to teach him the value of money. So the kid saves for three years for the LEGO Death Star. And he finally. He used every birthday, every holiday gift. He just puts it in the bank. He has this little Darth Vader piggy bank and he puts it in the Darth Vader head and he finally is like, dad, I got the $300 or $400 for the Lego Death Star. In the three years that it took him to save for the LEGO Death Star, the LEGO Death Star actually was retired.

Jordan Harbinger (45:58)

Yeah, I was going to say it's a retired product. Year into his own product, how much this thing costs?

Brad Meltzer (46:03)

Oh, I know, because a year later, I had. Right as it retired, I had to buy it on eBay for $100 more than the asking price was, which I didn't pass on to my son. That was on me. So now, here's the best part is I. I'm in Houston, Texas. I win the auction, so I have to pay now $400 for it. And I see that the username for the ebay guy is like, houston Lego guy. And I'm like, houston? I'm in Houston. And it's like $50 to ship. I'm like, you buy this hotel? He's like, oh, I live right by that hotel. I'll drop it off at your hotel. So he drops the LEGO Death Star at my hotel. I don't realize how big a box it is. It is gigantic. And I have to fly home with a full LEGO Death Star. And if I could give you one piece of advice of everything that I've said here today, I highly recommend flying with a LEGO Death Star because everyone is nice to you. Like, TSA is like, oh, right this way. They're like, put it in first class. Everyone wants to be your friend because you're holding the entire LEGO Death Star in a box that is the size of a small human.

Jordan Harbinger (46:58)

Oh, my God.

Brad Meltzer (46:59)

So I highly recommend traveling with a LEGO Death Star. It was the greatest trip I ever.

Jordan Harbinger (47:02)

Took, I got to tell you. I'm looking at this, and there's a lot of them that are. Are used, and some of them are like, $1,000.

Brad Meltzer (47:08)

Oh, yeah. No, because now. Well, now they made a new LEGO Death Star, right? There's a new version you can buy, but people now, of course, want the old one because it's gone.

Jordan Harbinger (47:16)

Lego Death Star 2025. Let's see. Let's see what we got.

Brad Meltzer (47:18)

You can find the 2025. The 2024, I think it is version. You can find that. The old one. Good luck.

Jordan Harbinger (47:24)

Yeah, this is still, like, $1,200.

Brad Meltzer (47:26)

$1,200 for the new one?

Jordan Harbinger (47:28)

No, the new One is, like, $3,400 on some of these websites.

Brad Meltzer (47:31)

Oh, my gosh. When we were building it, the very first version was. It was a LEGO Death Star. So it was perfectly round. There was nothing to brace it. So if you're a kid and you're playing with your Lego Death Star, you want to play. And so we had built half of it, and he's playing with it even though it's half built. My wife and I are watching a movie because we had put in a couple hours building, and all of a sudden we hear this scream that is only the sound that a young child makes when his Lego Death Star top. And we are crash. That is like a thousand Lego pieces, right? And I went in and my son was hysterical, crying. It was like the real Death Star. It just was. Boom. It was shattered to nothing. And I said to him, we, we can rebuild it. Like, he couldn't even speak. He was just like, no, we, no. And I'm like, listen, we just got to do it. I pull this, like, one hunk. I'm like, let's just start going from here. And I start going. And maybe 10, 15 minutes in, he finally is like, here, dad, here's this piece. And I do believe that moment is the metaphor of any gift I gave my kid is the. Here's the disaster. I know it's bad, but, like, it's a brick at a time, man. It's the only way out. It's a brick at a time.

Jordan Harbinger (48:34)

There's a lot of lessons in building Legos with people who are under the age of 10, for sure.

Brad Meltzer (48:38)

Or under the age of 50.

Jordan Harbinger (48:40)

Or under the age of 50. Exactly.

Brad Meltzer (48:42)

We'll take it.

Jordan Harbinger (48:43)

Well, unlike Brad Meltzer, I have to purchase my children's love, and I can't do that unless you support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. A while back, Jen and I decided to become Airbnb hosts. Not just guests, but full on hosts. And hosting actually ended up being a really cool, surprisingly meaningful experience. We actually designed our home in the Silicon Valley Bay area with a separate guest suite and private entrance. And that idea came from staying in so many great Airbnbs ourselves and thinking, hey, we could do this too. Maybe do it even better. And we didn't go over the top with it, but we made it comfy and added thoughtful little touches, stuff we'd want if we were staying there. Like little snacks, a couple bottles of water, sometimes even sample products from our show sponsors, which is kind of funny. We also left a local guide with our favorite coffee shops, noodle spots, hidden gem pizza place, you know, stuff you're not going to find on TripAdvisor or whatever. One of the best parts of hosting is honestly the people. We've had amazing guests over the years. One woman came from China on a long term contract job. She was so sweet, super respectful. Later even helped us track down some stuff we wanted from China. So kind of a cool global connection there. If you've ever thought about hosting, I say try it. Find out more@airbnb.com Host this episode is also sponsored by NordVPN. I'm online a lot. I mean, who isn't nowadays? My digital life could be an open buffet if I'm not careful. That's why Jen and I have been using NORDVPN for a long time now. It's like a digital invisibility cloak. Whether I'm checking my bank account on airport WI fi or just trying to watch a show that's not available in my region, NordVPN keeps everything locked down and smooth. No lag, no buffering, it's fast, there's secure browsing. And here's the cool part, you can switch your virtual location with a couple clicks, so suddenly you're watching sports in the uk. If you're into that, you're getting flight deals from Argentina. You're scoring a cheaper streaming plan. Like you live in another country. You can save just by changing your digital zip code. And I might even go as far as to say that I've saved more money than I've spent on the VPN by doing that. They've even got this threat protection feature that blocks malware, sketchy websites, phishing attempts. So it's not just privacy, it's full on Internet hygiene. One account covers up to 10 devices, so you can protect your phone, laptop, tablet, your partner, stuff, whatever. The best part costs less than a cup of coffee a month. And like I said, if you get cheaper streaming plans by changing your zip code, it sort of ends up paying for itself and then some. To get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com jordanharbinger Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. The link is also in the podcast episode description box. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood if you got kids. It's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com. we've done your homework. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. They make this show possible. All of the deals and discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code. Email me jordanordanharbinger.com I'm happy to surface codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Thank you so much now for the rest of my conversation with Brad Meltzer. You've seen a lot of success, man. I'm wondering how you define success. Now, I know it's a cliche question, but you've kind of solved the money problem. I mean, I don't have your bank balance in front of me, but if you can afford the Lego Death Star, you're doing all right.

Brad Meltzer (52:42)

I mean, pretty much to me. If you can afford Lego Death Star, you're done. Yeah, but success for me, you know, it's funny, I think in the beginning I definitely was, you know, the money thing was my measure of just because I just wanted to get out of the struggle that my family was in.

Jordan Harbinger (52:53)

Right.

Brad Meltzer (52:54)

I will say very quickly, I owe it to the wise soul who bought my first book. My agent, Jill Near. May she rest in peace. She just passed away two years ago, but she built in me that idea of, like, I remember when my first book came out, I went to Amazon. Amazon had just started. I was in Seattle for a book event and Amazon said to me, listen, we have this thing on Amazon where you can write a review of a product after you use it. It was all new to us. And they said, you know, you're not. You don't sell the Most books here, but you have more reviews than anybody.

Jordan Harbinger (53:23)

Oh. He's like, thanks for rubbing that in. Thanks, Bezos. I didn't need to know that. I knew that already.

Brad Meltzer (53:27)

Right. And they handed me again, just to show you the time, they handed me a file folder of printed out reviews that was like this thick.

Jordan Harbinger (53:33)

Oh, wow.

Brad Meltzer (53:34)

And it was because I was like 24 years old, 27 years old. So all my readers were in their 20s. So we were the first adapters of like the new technology.

Jordan Harbinger (53:42)

Right? Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (53:43)

And if you looked at the reviews of what I did and my very first book, this wasn't the book that got 24 rejection letters. This was the second book I wrote. That first book never got published. It sits on my shelf behind me. But what you saw is the first person would say like, this is the best book I've ever read. And then some would say, this is the worst book in creation. And then it would say, I'm the greatest writer of literature. And this is that I'm single handedly reporting the downfall of literature. And my agent said to me, the worst thing you could ever be is when you put something out. And everyone goes like that. They don't care. But if you are eliciting anger and love, you are touching something deep in there. And it's my way of saying that's how I've kind of seen success. And I don't talk about the reviews, but for me is like, if I think it's good. Those people that said I was the best were totally wrong. Those people that said it was the worst, I give it equally as silly. Like neither of them are right. But what mattered at the end is am I proud of that product? And that's, I truly think, how I measure success. I spent a long time trying to chase that thing, but I never got caught up in the bestseller list. That never mattered to me. And how many weeks or how many books I sold. If you asked me now how many, I'm like, I couldn't tell you. I don't care. Because if I learn that then, and it's a big number, then I'm becoming a jerk off. I'm just obnoxious. And at the worst, I worry that it's not big enough. Then I become crazy over it. I don't want to be either of those things. So the one thing for me is, do I love what I'm doing and that's successful. It's my wife's advice to me, writing the speech. It's like, don't get caught up in the other stuff, just do the best you can. And I know it sounds almost cliche, but if you love it, it shows on the page. And if you don't, it shows on the page. And I do believe that.

Jordan Harbinger (55:19)

Was there a moment in your career where you think, okay, I'm making it, or I've made it, because the first book didn't do well. The second book, I mean, was that when you're like, okay, I can actually do this.

Brad Meltzer (55:29)

The first book came out of the gate and did well. The second book, like, bottomed out. So I had, like, this graph that was like this. And the third book, I remember, was coming out. You know, after the second book came out, I was devastated. My publisher shut down. I thought, this is the end. This is where it's all gonna go away.

Jordan Harbinger (55:44)

Like, your book sold so poorly that.

Brad Meltzer (55:47)

I raided the whole public. I mean, truly, they got bought out, and they were shutting down the imprint.

Jordan Harbinger (55:53)

Wow.

Brad Meltzer (55:53)

It was crazy. And I remember thinking, like, I'm done. This is the end of my career. I called my mother. My mother who never went to college and was dyslexic and only read at that point in her life, two books. My two books. That's all she ever read. And I called my mother, panicking, I'll never forget it. And my mother said to me, I'd love you if you were a garbage man. And she wasn't taking a crack at garbage. Clearly, my uncle was a garbage man. But what she was saying was, I love you no matter what you got. And I'll never forget the very first time. This is a decade later, the very first time we ever hit the number one spot on the bestseller list. I called my mom and my wife knew because they called her first to track me down. And I called my mom to tell her, and she starts sobbing. And because she's crying, I'm getting emotional. And I say I'm worried that she's driving. I don't know where she is. I'm like, are you driving? I don't want you to crash the car. Crying, crying. I said, where are you? And she said, I'm at Marshall's. And I'm like, of course my mom's at Marshall's. Like, we're the best spot and the best sellers. My mom's still trying to buy, like, two for one irregular socks. And it was like. And that moment was the greatest lesson for me, which is like, don't ever think this stuff should ever change. You never stop being who you are at your Corey. I mean, I don't have many skills, but I do think my love of history has made me not forget where I came from and never think that any of those other nonsense stuff mattered. Like, I'm more excited by my son liking my commencement address than the fact that, like, people started sharing it all across the Internet saying this was the greatest thing, whatever, since, whatever. I care less about that. But my son being like, dad, you did right. I was like, I'll take that any day.

Jordan Harbinger (57:30)

It's funny, I was talking to my producer and I was like, yeah, I don't do XYZ on the show. Cause years from now, when my kids hear it, they're gonna think this. And my producer goes, it is so funny that you think your kids are gonna listen to this podcast in 20 years.

Brad Meltzer (57:42)

Oh, that is 100% true. I mean, my kid finally read one of my books and I was terrified. Like, I've been interviewed in the, you know, reviewed in the New York Times, Entertainment, we like, People magazine, Vanity Fair, you name it. But I was more terrified of this 17 year old reading my book than any harsh reviewer of all time. I remember watching him and he, and he finally said to me, he's like, he noticed, like, whatever. I use like the name of our dog, or I'll use the name of our street, or I'll use the name of our, you know, aunt or so. And he's like, all you do is take from our lives and you put it in there. I'm like, no, crap. Yes. Everything I do is channeled through you. Like, what do you think I'm doing? You could see that he was like, why do I care about your crap? Like, it was such a great humbling and no, and you know what? It shouldn't be any other way. No kid should be impressed with their parent. I wasn't with mine. I don't want my kids to be impressed with anything I do.

Jordan Harbinger (58:30)

I guess I don't need my kids to be impressed. But it would be, it would be nice to know that they thought that this wasn't terrible. But then again, why do I care?

Brad Meltzer (58:37)

Yeah, I've gotten a couple hints here and there. The commencement is for the first time my daughter and my daughter's ruthless. First time, I think she ever said anything I did wasn't a bust. She goes, let me read it. When she wanted to read it. I was like, oh, she's listening now. She was studying it and I got that one little thing in 19 years and I loved it. But I learned more from my kids than they ever will. Learn from me. I firmly believe that.

Jordan Harbinger (59:03)

Looking ahead, hopefully far ahead, what do you want your legacy to be, both as a writer and as a person? You know, what do you hope people take away from maybe your body of work years from now? Like you said, nobody's gonna remember us in a hundred years. My friends have told me that too. When I'm like, oh, I gotta work on the show, they're like, nah, man, no one's gonna care in a hundred years. That's true. But what do you want people to take away? Maybe in the next few after you retire. How's that?

Brad Meltzer (59:26)

I can tell you this, you know, our kids books that we do, I love writing my thrillers and I love writing the nonfiction adult stuff we do. But I love these kids books that we do because they're my core belief. And this is what I hope people remember me about. Remember about me is my core belief is I don't care where you went to school, I don't care how much money you made. That is nonsense to me. I believe in regular people and their ability to affect change in this world. I believe ordinary people change the world. And that idea runs through everything I do not by because it's some kind of thing for me. It's just who I am. And I hope if you take anything from my work or even this interview, is that you realize that anything I say doesn't matter. But I hope it unlocks something to tell you that. Anyone we've talked about, whether it's jfk, the highest person in the office, to me is the same as the garbage man my mom was talking about. We're all scared, we're all nervous. Anyone I've talked about has moments where they're terrified, where they think they can't go on, and they do one Lego piece at a time. And my goal in life is not I'm going to sell the most books, but it's to just remind people of their power and remind people that your impact is far bigger than you think it is. Here's the best way I could say it. This is a decade ago. I'm in an airport bathroom and there's a janitor who's cleaning up in the bathroom. Worst job. One of the worst job as far as I'm concerned on the planet. And this guy at the urinal next to me as we're leaving wash our hands, he walks past the janitor and says, thanks for keeping it clean. And I just thought to myself, that's the nicest thing you can say to the janitor. In the airport.

Jordan Harbinger (61:00)

Classy move.

Brad Meltzer (61:01)

And for a decade, maybe two decades now, I have been saying in every public bathroom I go into, I say to every single janitor, thank you for keeping it clean. And that stranger, who I don't know, I have no idea who they were, I couldn't tell you anything about them, had as much impact on me as the frigging President of the United States. More impact on me in my actual actions. And that's what I feel. If I can just put a little bit of that out in the universe. If you take nothing from this interview, it's like you go in the next time you see a janitor and say, thanks for keeping it clean. My work's done, man. That's it. World's a little bit a hair fractional better. That, to me, is the great success. That's what I hope to unlock these.

Jordan Harbinger (61:44)

Little powers of kindness. You know, calling your old teacher. I think everybody should do that. Thanking the janitor. I love that kind of thing. I know we've got a few minutes left. I'm curious about this JFK stuff. It's sort of trending lately. My YouTube team's like, ask him about JFK. It's going to be amazing. You spent a long time digging into history's biggest secrets. I mean, it's kind of one of the things that you do in your. In a lot of your books. What is something about the JFK assassination that maybe still doesn't sit right with you? Because you. I assume you went through that trove of documents.

Brad Meltzer (62:11)

Yeah, no, listen, I'm on the board of the National Archives Foundation. I was, like, on there all the time being like, when are they out? I want them. Let's see them. And listen, I wrote a book called the JFK Conspiracy, about a secret plot to kill JFK three years before Oswald.

Jordan Harbinger (62:24)

Wow.

Brad Meltzer (62:24)

It's a crazy story. It's a Sunday morning in Palm Beach, Florida, and JFK comes out of his house on his way to church. And what he doesn't know is that across the street there's a disgruntled postal worker named Richard Pavlik who has a car filled with seven sticks of dynamite. And he's followed JFK to Florida because he thinks his security is weakest there, which he's right about. And as JFK is leaving the house, all this guy has to do, this assassin has to do is wait for JFK to get right to the end of the block and then hit the little trigger mechanism and boom, go the dynamite. And what saves JFK's? Life that day. I won't ruin the. I just ruined chapter one of the JFK conspiracy. That's chapter one. But when we were researching the book, I, of course, became obsessed with what happened three years later with Lee Harvey Oswald. And we tell the whole story, and we end the book, the JFK conspiracy, with the actual assassination. And my obsession with it is still. And even after everything that's come out, and I've obviously been still poring through documents, there are good questions that still need to be answered. And this is what I was hoping was in there. It's like, what is Lee Harvey Oswald, who's a Marine, no longer Marine, but is a Marine doing in Russia at the height of the Cold War? And you're telling me nobody knows about that? That seems cre. Like, how does Jack Ruby get past an entire police station full of cops to pull that trigger? Those are fair questions to ask, right? The kooky questions of, like, I'll tell you where I feel on the kooky. This is perfect. Like, so you want to know who killed JFK? Here's who killed JFK? If you look in the 60s, when JFK is actually killed, who do we initially blame it on? We blamed it on. It was the height of the Cold War, our great enemies at the time. We blamed it on the Russians, we blamed it on the Cubans. If you look in the 70s, as Watergate happens and we start mistrusting the government and have less trust for the government, who killed JFK? It was an inside job. CIA did it, LBJ did it.

Jordan Harbinger (64:13)

Sure.

Brad Meltzer (64:14)

If you look in the 80s, as the Godfather movies peak, who killed JFK? It's the mob.

Jordan Harbinger (64:18)

The Mafia. Yeah. Okay.

Brad Meltzer (64:20)

So if you want to know who killed jfk, it's whoever, decade by decades, whoever America's most afraid of at that moment in time. And the reason is, is because that's what all conspiracies are.

Jordan Harbinger (64:29)

I see.

Brad Meltzer (64:30)

They're mirrors of your fears. And so you show me your favorite conspiracy, and I'll show you not only who you are, but what you're afraid of.

Jordan Harbinger (64:38)

So now I'm waiting for it to be China killed jfk, Mao did it.

Brad Meltzer (64:41)

And by the way. And now it's ufo. Now they're like. I was going to say aliens and all that stuff. It's all. It's all. Now, if you look JFK and aliens, that is the number one thing right now. Why? Because we're seeing all these drone attacks. So it's just a fascinating thing to me, but I think there are good questions to be asked, but I think that it's so revealing. JFK is like this. He's the perfect metaphor. I looked, actually, when I was researching the book. This is so perfect to everything we've been talking about. I love you for this. You know, they used to call JFK's Eric Camelot, named after King Arthur, the perfect place. In the JFK conspiracy book. We show JFK's marriage, we show you how he cheats on his wife. We show you what a bad husband he is, and also what a good, amazing World War II hero he is and how great he is at unlocking idealism. But as I'm reading through, you know, when his wife goes into labor, she's hemorrhaging, he's nowhere to be found. He's on a plane to Florida. Like, my wife would kill me if I was on a plane when she's, like, giving birth.

Jordan Harbinger (65:33)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (65:33)

And I kept thinking to myself, why do they call this Camelot? Where's Camelot come from? And then I discovered this. Is that the word Camelot is never used with JFK until after he dies? It's after his actual assassination that Jackie Kennedy grants one interview, she said Life magazine, she invites the reporter to his house and tells him this exclusive story. She says that when JFK was still alive, that back in the White House, and they were trying to go to bed at night, when he couldn't fall asleep, she would put on a record of one of his favorite songs from a play about a place called Camelot. And we forget that Jackie, originally the start of her career, was an actual reporter. She was a member of the press. She was hounded by the press. But make no mistake, she was a master of the press. She's the one who put that word, Camelot, into the lexicon. She's the one who first wrote it there. Writing JFK's legacy before anyone else could. And that's why we call it Camelot today. She's the mastermind behind it all. And I love that detail. And to me, it's like everything we've said. We can chase all the superficial nonsense, give me the car, give me the house, give me the money, give me the things. But it's all like Camelot again, Super shiny on the outside, but none of it exists and none of it matters. What matters are the more personal things that you bring to your family, to your friends, to your community, to your strangers and people you're never even going to meet.

Jordan Harbinger (66:52)

Man, I have so many questions about this and so little It's a tangent, but also almost like a guilty pleasure because I don't really dive into these conspiracy things, but there's so many documents you've said, I think in other interviews, not everything is being made public. And I know that. Right. They're still redacted stuff even though they're declassified. What do you think they're keeping from us with this?

Brad Meltzer (67:09)

The only thing that was remaining was the last 1%. That was it. Everything else was out. 99% was out. And. And what we're finding, even as we read through it, the sad part is they redacted everything, but they redacted even people that are alive, their Social Security numbers. So, like people whose, you know, information is now put out there and that obviously shouldn't be out there, but what I'm looking for. And again, it's. There's still. I Forget, it's like 800,000 pages. So it's going to take a while for us to read through everything. Here's what was redacted and what we're waiting and what we're waiting through right now. Basically, the kind of methods that our intelligence services used to use. And when I say methods, I don't mean just like putting things on the bottom of a bus bench and how we used to do that, but I'm talking about, like, who was secretly working for us that no one knew was working for us. I can tell you that a guy who used to work in a very big acronym agency once told me about this great enemy of the United States. If I told you his name, you absolutely know who it is, this very, very famous dictator. And no one knew that his family was secretly helping us and giving us information. He was a great enemy of the United States, but he was actually secretly helping us because he had family that was sick with cancer and America was secretly helping his family. And that was a role he played. And we don't want that stuff coming out. The reason it's been hidden is because it was helpful to us to not reveal that he was secretly helping us. So we're seeing that come out. And you know what you're also seeing. And this is the other part. It's just embarrassing crap we did as a country. And you can see it. Some of it's come out. We've seen some things of, like what we were doing in Cuba to destabilize Cuba. And again, not that we shouldn't have been working to, like, you know, where we're working with Castro. Like, there were obviously things we were working on that were for the right result. But stuff that you were like, dude, that's a little fishy right now.

Jordan Harbinger (68:47)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (68:48)

But we were doing it back then because that's what the government did back then. And what we're waiting for is not. Here's the mastermind moment where we unleashed Oswald on the planet. That's not there. It's the embarrassing stuff that, like, gave us no results. What we did to another country. And we were kind of the a holes in the story. Right. If you don't know who the A hole is in the story to you, there are moments where we were doing stuff that didn't give us what we wanted. And we probably wrecked some lives in that. And that stuff's coming out too.

Jordan Harbinger (69:13)

Yeah. Wow.

Brad Meltzer (69:14)

We can say that's bad. But that's America. That's the world. That's what being human is. We're not. You know, it's like JFK himself or myself. Like, again, not at the JFK level, but, like, we're all amazing. And we're terrified and we're cowards and we're brave and we're weak and we're strong. And it just depends when you catch us. Sometimes we're all those things in the same day. Sometimes we're all those things in a couple minutes. And that's not a bad thing. It just means you're alive, man.

Jordan Harbinger (69:41)

This is probably anticlimactic, but I don't care. Who do you think did it? Is it as simple as. Oswald was a communist, and so he went for it. Because the CIA thing, it's like, I don't know. None of this stuff ever really sat well with me.

Brad Meltzer (69:52)

Yeah. And listen, again, it always has to pass the test of can a group of people keep a secret?

Jordan Harbinger (69:57)

Right.

Brad Meltzer (69:58)

And the answer is a few people can keep a secret. Giant operations cannot be kept secret. It goes back to Deep Throat. Right. Deep Throat in Watergate was the secret source that gave Woodward and Bernstein Watergate. And they said, we're not going to reveal who Deep Throat is until he's dead. That was the blood oath they took. Like, never tell anyone who it is. Woodward and Bernstein and the head of the Washington Post had to keep it secret. And they kept it secret. And then guess what happened. A guy named Mark felt on his deathbed right as he knew he was dying, said, I'm Deep Throat. It was me. Even he couldn't keep his own secret because he was dying. And he was like, I gotta tell everybody, man. It's a crazy. I want people to know it Was me.

Jordan Harbinger (70:35)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (70:35)

So that's always the test. So do I. I think that Oswald was the shooter. 100%. You know, if you watch the movie JFK, it will tell you that since Oswald, no one has ever been able to recreate the shot that killed jfk. And that to me used to be very convincing evidence. I was like, if no Marine can recreate that shot, Oswald had to have another shooter. Here's the problem. That information was completely wrong. There were totally people, plenty of people made that shot after Oswald did. A Marine buddy of mine said to me that he could make that shot today. In fact, on the training course of what you need to be a marksman, you have to basically make a shot that's a similar distance. But why did Oliver Stone put that misinformation in jfk? Because he said he wanted to offset all the other misinformation that's out there about jfk.

Jordan Harbinger (71:20)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (71:20)

And millions of people relied on that. So I think Oswald took the shot. As to who was helping him, that's the answer. I still want to know, was someone in Russia helping him? Was someone here giving the money or the thing? We don't know the motive, but you know, he took the shot.

Jordan Harbinger (71:35)

I love putting stuff like this to bed because the conspiracies to me are always so ridiculous. I mean this show is about critical thinking and things like that. So conspiracies are often just totally ridiculous. Although some turn out to be true. Lab leak theory with COVID for example. I don't know, it's not proven proven, but it's like eh, that probably happened.

Brad Meltzer (71:51)

Listen, I don't believe in conspiracies. I believe in trying to find the truth. Yeah, like I will be the first one to say I don't know if anyone else work. I want to know if I want to know as much as anyone else. Did someone else work with Oswald? But right now there's just no proof of it. And to say he didn't take the shot, that to me is where you're missing key facts like he took the shot. The question is motive, opportunity. Who funded that trip to Russia when he was there? Or did he just because he was a lunatic? There are only four people who have successfully killed US Presidents. I've studied them. And when you talk to the Secret Service about them, I said to them, what do they have in common? They said people who try to kill the President fall into two categories. There are hunters and there's howlers. And a howler makes a lot of noise, says I'm Coming to kill you. I hate you. I hate you. I'm coming to kill you. They make a lot of noise, but they rarely take action. A hunter is very different. A hunter doesn't make any noise. They just come and they take the shot. And if you look at the four men who have successfully killed US Presidents, all four of them are hunters. And Lee Harvey Oswald was a hunter. Didn't say a word. That, to me, is what I'm far more interested in, is, like, the things that are actual facts and the things that match up critically. Not just, you know, we all have an idea. We can all make up whatever we want, but that doesn't get us anywhere. Just, you know, spouting off like, show me the actual proof and show me the things that back it up.

Jordan Harbinger (73:06)

Brad Meltzer, thank you so much, man. This is fun. Long overdue. I'm glad we did it so good.

Brad Meltzer (73:10)

Love you, brother.

Jordan Harbinger (73:13)

You're about to hear a preview with James Patterson and what would make the bestselling author walk away at the top of his game.

Brad Meltzer (73:19)

It's rare that I don't write. What I discovered was that I loved doing it, and then I started writing stories, and I just loved it. I didn't know whether it was any good, but I love doing it, and I would just write, write, write, write, write. When the first book came out, Thomas Berryman Number gave Little Brown a blurb, and he said that I'm quite sure that James Patterson wrote a million words before he started this book. It was a great compliment. And then I decided I'd try novel. I'm really happy with the way that turned out. One of the things you always like to do at the end of the chapter is they must turn out that next page. That's a strength. The weaknesses, I sometimes don't go as deep as I should. Here's the secret. Hit them in the face with a cream pie, and while you have their attention, say something smart. That's it. No cream pie. They didn't even notice it. So forget about it. You're just talking to yourself. And if you don't say something smart, once you get their attention, it's irrelevant. You surprise people, which I think is important. Important for my kind of book.

Jordan Harbinger (74:21)

We need heroes.

Brad Meltzer (74:22)

And one of the things about the military, and it's very true in this book, in American Heroes, but also walking My combat boots, the military is about we, not me. And one of the things I think we need to get back to a bit more is we. And it's hard to come by now duty, honor, sacrifice. It just has to be more we rather than just me.

Jordan Harbinger (74:45)

To hear more. As James Patterson reveals the moment that changed his life and the unconventional process that's helped him sell over 400 million books, check out episode 1100 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I just love talking to that guy. Really interesting, sweet, good, human. All things Brad Meltzer will be in the show. Notes@jordanharbinger.com, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show. All@jordanharbinger.com deals Please consider supporting those who support the show. They make it possible, folks. Also our newsletter. It is always kicking around. Me and Gabe love writing this thing. You guys hit reply. We love engaging with you. The idea behind it, it's called We Bit Wiser is to give you something specific, something practical, something that you can apply right out of the box. Psychology, relationships, something from the show in under two minutes. It's not a long read and if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a really good companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. Over at 6minutenetworking.com I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram or connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tata Sidlowskis, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends. When you find something useful or interesting, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who would love a good conversation like this just needs to hear what we talked about today. Definitely share this episode with them. And hey, in the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.