1185: Coffee | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1185: Coffee | Skeptical Sunday

Release Date: July 20, 2025

Hosts:

• Jordan Harbinger – Host of The Jordan Harbinger Show
• Jessica Wynn – Co-host, writer, researcher, and fellow coffee enthusiast

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Introduction: Coffee in Our Daily Lives

In this episode of Skeptical Sunday, Jordan Harbinger and Jessica Wynn delve deep into the world of coffee, exploring its pervasive presence in our lives, its impact on health, the environment, and the ethical concerns surrounding its production. The conversation is both enlightening and provocative, challenging listeners to reconsider their relationship with their morning brew.

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The Ubiquity of Coffee Consumption

Jessica Wynn opens the discussion by highlighting the staggering statistics of global coffee consumption:

"400 billion cups of coffee are consumed each year around the globe, and over 450 million of those cups are drunk in the US every day." (04:34)

Jordan Harbinger remarks on the cultural significance:

"Coffee is culture, or lack thereof in the case of gas station coffee." (04:34)

The hosts emphasize that coffee is more than just a beverage; it’s a social ritual ingrained in daily routines worldwide.

---

Caffeine: The World's Most Consumed Psychoactive Drug

Jessica Wynn asserts caffeine's status:

"Caffeine is absolutely a drug. It's the most widely consumed psychoactive drug on the planet." (05:44)

Jordan Harbinger reflects on its societal acceptance:

"It's the world's most, like, polite addiction." (06:20)

They discuss how caffeine alters brain chemistry by blocking adenosine, a neurotransmitter responsible for signaling fatigue:

"Coffee doesn't give you energy. It just turns off the part of your brain that knows you're tired." (07:16)

The conversation highlights the fine line between moderate consumption and dependence, noting:

"If you need three cups just to feel normal, I mean, that's not wellness, that's dependence." (06:49)

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Health Impacts of Coffee: Benefits and Drawbacks

Jessica Wynn explores the dual nature of coffee's health effects:

"Caffeine blocks adenosine but also elevates our cortisol levels, which messes with our sleep and actually causes fatigue." (07:48)

Notable Quotes:

• "Moderate coffee intake, which is like one to three cups a day, can offer some benefits." (26:14)
• "Caffeine is an antioxidant, but there's just many other ways to get dietary antioxidants." (57:38)

Positive Effects:

• Antioxidants: Potential liver protection and reduced inflammation (26:14-27:12).
• Cognitive Boost: Temporary enhancement in alertness (26:14).

Negative Effects:

• Anxiety and Heart Rate: High doses can lead to increased anxiety, heart palpitations, and disrupted sleep (07:40-07:52).
• Digestive Issues: Natural acidity can cause heartburn, indigestion, and acid reflux (13:33-14:05).
• Caffeine Crash: The temporary mask of tiredness leads to a sudden realization of fatigue once effects wear off (17:04-17:30).

The hosts critically examine the notion of coffee as a productivity aid, suggesting it might be more of a "motivational band-aid."

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Environmental Impact of Coffee Production

The environmental toll of coffee farming is a significant focus:

Jessica Wynn explains the resource-intensive process:

"One cup in the morning takes 140 liters of water to produce." (37:18)

Jordan Harbinger reacts with disbelief:

"36 gallons of water. That's like a 20-minute long shower." (37:19)

Key Environmental Concerns:

• Deforestation: Coffee farming leads to significant forest clearing, reducing biodiversity and disrupting migratory patterns. (35:33-35:47)
• Monoculture: Growing only one type of plant decreases biodiversity and increases vulnerability to diseases. (35:57-36:22)
• Water Pollution: Wet milling processes contaminate water sources, harming aquatic life. (37:07-38:13)

The discussion underscores the "ExxonMobil of beverages" analogy to describe coffee's environmental footprint.

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Ethical and Labor Issues in the Coffee Industry

A deeply unsettling aspect of coffee production is the exploitation of labor:

Jessica Wynn highlights the prevalence of bonded labor and child labor:

"Bonded labor is where someone pledges their services as a security for the repayment of a debt... It's horribly exploitative." (45:02-45:30)

Notable Cases:

• Thai Workers in Hawaii: Forced labor where passports were confiscated, and workers were threatened with deportation. (46:22-46:53)
• Child Labor in Guatemala: Children under 13 working on farms supplying major brands like Starbucks and Nespresso. (44:12-45:02)

Jordan Harbinger expresses moral outrage:

"Here I was drinking a little joe to get the old engine started in the morning, and apparently I'm contributing to the demise of the planet and the basic human rights of my fellow man." (47:07-47:27)

Efforts to Address Issues:

• Fair Trade Certifications: Labels like Fair Trade USA, Fair Trade International, and Rainforest Alliance aim to ensure ethical practices, though they fall short of addressing all environmental and labor issues. (48:26-50:35)
• Direct Trade Models: Encouraging closer relationships between roasters and farmers for better compensation and ethical standards. (50:35-50:58)

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Alternatives to Coffee: Exploring Other Options

The hosts discuss potential substitutes for traditional coffee:

Jessica Wynn mentions various alternatives:

• Decaf Coffee: Offers some benefits without the high caffeine content but doesn't resolve ethical concerns.
• Poor Man’s Coffee (Chicory): A traditional substitute with a nutty and earthy flavor, though less satisfying for caffeine lovers. (53:04-53:18)
• Mushroom Brews and Tea: Other trendy alternatives lacking the same ethical and health profile.
• Natural Options: Simply eating an apple for sustained energy without the drawbacks of caffeine. (53:59-54:02)

Jordan Harbinger humorously dismisses some alternatives:

"I wish naps would catch on, but it's impossible for most of our lifestyles." (54:33-54:48)

Recommendations:

• Read Labels: Choose brands with ethical certifications.
• Moderation: If continuing to drink coffee, do so mindfully.
• Seek Alternatives: Consider reducing dependence or exploring healthier substitutes.

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Concluding Thoughts: Awareness and Responsibility

Jessica Wynn sums up the ethical dilemma:

"My advice is read up on the brands you buy. Research the production standards of your favorite suppliers." (58:11)

Jordan Harbinger adds a personal touch:

"We're not saying give it up. We're saying wake up to what's waking you up. Drink what you want, but know what you're drinking." (59:05)

The episode closes with a poignant reminder of the hidden costs of our daily coffee ritual and a call to action for listeners to make informed choices.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Caffeine as a Drug:
  "Caffeine is absolutely a drug. It's the most widely consumed psychoactive drug on the planet." – Jessica Wynn (05:44)

• On Coffee’s Environmental Impact:
  "One cup in the morning takes 140 liters of water to produce." – Jessica Wynn (37:18)

• On Ethical Concerns:
  "Bonded labor is... horribly exploitative." – Jessica Wynn (45:02)

• On Health Benefits and Drawbacks:
  "Moderate coffee intake... can offer some benefits." – Jessica Wynn (26:14)

• On Withdrawal and Dependence:
  "You can experience mood swings... It's dependency with good branding." – Jessica Wynn (30:11)

• On Alternatives to Coffee:
  "Studies show an apple in the morning is a better wake me up." – Jessica Wynn (53:59)

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Final Takeaways

1. Awareness is Key: Understanding what’s in your cup and the broader implications of your coffee consumption is crucial.
2. Mindful Consumption: Moderation can help mitigate some health risks associated with caffeine.
3. Ethical Choices: Supporting fair trade and direct trade coffee brands can contribute to better labor practices and environmental sustainability.
4. Explore Alternatives: Reducing dependency on caffeine through natural energy sources like fruits or adopting better sleep habits can enhance overall well-being.
5. Environmental Responsibility: Being conscious of the environmental footprint of coffee encourages more sustainable practices and consumer choices.

This episode serves as a comprehensive examination of coffee, encouraging listeners to reflect on their consumption patterns and the broader impact of their daily habits.

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For more insights and discussions on critical topics, tune into The Jordan Harbinger Show and explore Skeptical Sunday’s investigative analysis on everyday subjects.

Transcript

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Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wonderypod that's audible.com wondery pod welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Jessica Wynn on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. On Sundays though, we do Skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions. Topics like why the Olympics are kind of a sham, tipping, astrology, acupuncture, crystal healing, diet pills, energy drinks, and more. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, crime and cults, and more. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today is your morning cup of Joe, a Comforting ritual? A socially accepted addiction? Or just a hot mug of lies? Or is it simply helping you limp through your over scheduled, under rested life? If skipping your daily dose of caffeine sends your whole day into chaos, well, you're not alone. Today we're diving headfirst into the jittery waters of the world's favorite drug, coffee. Here to explore this steaming cup of magical energy that most of us depend on is writer and researcher and fellow java junkie, Jessica Wynne. Hey, Jess.

[Jessica Wynn]

Hey, Jordan. Have you had your coffee today?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of course. I have some cold brew, a few espressos. I'm buzzing, by the way, when people say espresso, I just can't. But anyway, I wanted to do this episode because I looked around and realized nearly everyone I know is addicted to coffee. And I went and met a friend of mine in New York a couple weeks ago and I asked him if he wanted to go for coffee and he goes, no, I'm good. I've had 16 shots of espresso. And I laughed. I laughed because it was like 10:00am and I said 16 and he's like, no, seriously, I've had 16 shots of espresso. And like, how are you alive right now? So. Well, I'm sure, I'm sure we'll get to that. If you're listening to this while you're sipping your third $6 latte of the day, don't worry, we're not judging you. And you're never going to be quite as caffeinated as my homeboy in New York.

[Jessica Wynn]

So that's like giving me the shakes. Thinking about it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what's interesting about him, though? He's super successful, but he was a drug addict for a while and I think that now that he's quote unquote sober, I think he's just like a coffee and cigarette addict instead.

[Jessica Wynn]

That makes sense. I mean, I guess it's a better drug. I mean, look, I'm not going to smack the cup out of anyone's hand. I mean, I'm drinking coffee right now. You know, we've built our mornings, our meetings, our work breaks, our entire sense of productivity around coffee. So questioning the effects is kind of necessary.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And let's be clear, this isn't about scam coffee blends or counterfeit beans. We did that back in episode 1088. This is about the real stuff, the hard bean, the caffeine, the drug. So what is all this coffee doing to us?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, well, first, you know, we've been drinking coffee for centuries. There's Turkish coffee ceremonies, Italian espresso bars, gas station sludge that tastes like it's filtered through a carburetor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Coffee is culture, or lack thereof in the case of gas station coffee. I cannot even imagine how much coffee we drink as a species. Do you have any idea?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's wild. 400 billion with a B. Billion cups of coffee are consumed each year around the globe, and over 450 million of those cups are drunk in the US every day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

And it's not like ice cream where you go, oh, I'll. I'll have a little coffee treat. More than half of adult Americans drink coffee every single day at an average of about three and a half cups each.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's good news for Dunkin and Starbucks for sure. Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

Sure. Sure. And for just the global industry, I mean, there's over 25 million farmers that work in coffee production. It's across 50 countries, mostly developing countries. Coffee is the second most valuable export for developing nations, right. After oil.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

And the global coffee market, it's insanely huge. In 2023, it was estimated to be worth about 500 billion. And it's growing, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's gotta be a drug with that kind of street value. That's crazy, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Caffeine is absolutely a drug. It's the most widely consumed psychoactive drug on the planet. You know, you might have guessed it would be cocaine, but caffeine blows it out of the water.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's basically PG13 cocaine, so it's strong enough to change your brain chemistry, but mild enough to be sold at the mall.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To be fair, I bought my cocaine at the mall too, back in the day. But, yeah, no one's. No one's doing an intervention over it. No one's organizing coffee Holics Anonymous meetings and saying, like, we're all here because we love you and you've had six lattes today.

[Jessica Wynn]

Maybe your friend needs that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, he. He does. I used to suck dick for coke. I seen him. That's an addiction, man. You ever suck some dick for coffee? No one sucked dick for coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, right? Like, you can't have a support group without coffee. It's the world's most, like, polite addiction. But if you need three cups just to feel normal, I mean, that's not wellness, that's dependence.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

So substitute what people say about coffee with any other drug, and you'd be worried, you know, don't talk to me till I've had my meth. Doesn't look great embroidered on a pillow in you know the home decor section of Target?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Oh, yeah. But first, heroin. Not trending. Not trending on Etsy anytime soon.

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But come on, coffee is not heroin. It's not destroying people's lives. It's like a healthy addiction, right? It's a healthy one. It's fine.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, sort of. You know what caffeine does is it blocks adenosine, which is a neurotransmitter that tells your body when it's tired. Okay, so coffee doesn't give you energy. It just turns off the part of your brain that knows you're tired. Like, that's the whole trick.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so it's basically gaslighting my body. It's kind of like my ex girlfriend. It's still better. It's still better than other drugs, though, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Of course. But let's not pretend it's harmless. You know, high doses, that jacks up your anxiety, spikes your heart rate, messes with your sleep, it triggers heartburn. And that's just the short list. It's not nothing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it makes us a little jittery. Seems worth it as I sit here biting my nails because I've had one cup too much.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, sure. I mean, until your heart's doing the tango and you can't sleep, it might seem worth it, but. Yeah, People don't realize that their normal stress and exhaustion might actually be caffeine withdrawal or side effects of too much caffeine.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's like the OG Emotional Support Stimulant. Well, maybe not the oj. I mean, I don't know. Tobacco might be, but how did we get so hooked on the stuff in the first place?

[Jessica Wynn]

The history of coffee shows how deep the obsession goes. So it might be older than tobacco? I'm not. I'm not exactly sure, but ancient Mesopotamians used coffee plants medicinally around 7,000 BC Ethiopia gets credit as the first society to drink it for pleasure. Thousands of years ago. But coffee as we know it hit the Western world in the 1500s, and it was so popular so fast throughout Europe that the Catholic Church freaked out, and they called it, quote, the bitter invention of Satan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, that's so ridiculous. Yes. Forgive me, Father, for I have Frappuccino'd.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't drink coffee, sir.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't drink hot liquids of any kind. That's the devil's temperature. Classic overreaction by the Church, I think, though. Come on, it's just coffee, man.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, the story goes that in the 1590s, Pope Clement VIII was pressured to forbid Catholics from drinking coffee. But he decided to try it first. And just after a few sips, he blessed coffee, declaring, quote, this Satan's drink is so delicious that it would be a pity to let the infidels have exclusive use of it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. That's the most Catholic thing I've heard over there. Count Chocula. But it's sort of ridiculous because that's. First of all. That was before the caffeine even kicked in. If you liked it after a few sips. So, like, you. You just. Just wait. Just wait. Clement viii. Is it evil? Yeah. As he starts sweating in his robes. Yeah. Is it evil? Maybe. Is it tasty? Absolutely. We're keeping it. I mean, and thus Catholics were allowed to drink coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

Amazing. I mean, you can literally buy a brand called Catholic coffee today.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, branding never sleeps. It's like those Trappist monks that just make beer and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, pray or something. But this ale is making us millions of dollars completely.

[Jessica Wynn]

And. And then in 1645, 50 years after the Pope's blessing of coffee, the first real coffee house opened in Rome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Coffee shops are. I get it. They're a sacred place. The counter is the altar. You line up, you confess your indulgent order to the barista, and you stand there waiting for them to call Gordon. So I can get my morning. My morning salvation in a cup of.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, that's the norm for most people, coffee. It gets you out of bed. But here's the scam. Coffee isn't really fuel. It's a symptom.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what is it a symptom of? Because if it's not, caffeine's not actually giving me the energy. It's masking something. So what is it a symptom of?

[Jessica Wynn]

It's a symptom of just being totally wiped. You know, we're overstimulated, we're under rested, and we substitute coffee for meals. A lot of us, coffee's the cause of, and then also the solution to all these problems. It just kind of slaps a smiley face sticker over the check engine light when we really just need rest and recovery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, there's this thing called intermittent fasting, and it's basically like people swear by it. And sure, there can be some benefits here and there, but mostly it's a fancy way to skip breakfast. But you're allowed to drink black coffee, so people drink like a bunch of black coffee and it's like, yeah, you're just drinking caffeine instead of breakfast so that you're not tired and you're not hungry, but you're actually still tired and hungry. You just aren't feeling.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, you're probably still not sleeping.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sleeping well, right? Or fine. But like, you. You aren't popping up the day like you would be if you, you know, had some food. So it's a motivational band aid. But what's the harm with little pep in our mugs?

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, I mean, in addition to the caffeine blocking, the adenosine, that neurotransmitter that tells you when you're tired, it also elevates our cortisol levels. And cortisol is the hormone that gets released by our adrenal glands in response to stress.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see.

[Jessica Wynn]

So when coffee messes with that over time, it messes with our sleep and it actually causes fatigue. So you're not. Not tired, you're just chemically unaware of how tired you really are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Okay. Just to make it through your inbox. Caffeine is so rude.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And like any drug, your tolerance to caffeine, it builds up. You feel tired, so you reach for more coffee and you. You get caught in this vicious caffeine loop drinking it all day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I will say I definitely do not understand people who have coffee late at night. You ever go to dinner and they're like, can I offer you anything? Dessert? Espresso. I'm like, my brother In Christ, it's 9:30pm Nobody wants espresso. And meanwhile, the old guy next to me orders three.

[Jessica Wynn]

Three? Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

Are you just going to be up all night? I mean, that's. That's some intense tolerance.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I literally saw an older guy order an espresso shot some kind of other coffee drink, which might have been for the person who wasn't at the table. Fine. But then he had some sort of coffee ice cream that also had a shot over it. And I was like, do you just go to bed at 2am or are you.

[Jessica Wynn]

So he's just been drinking it since he was nine?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Or have you been drinking coffee since you were nine years old and now you can drink this and immediately go pass out on your couch? I don't understand that. I can't do. If I have coffee at 4pm it's over, man.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, it's just masking the problems that are actually making us tired. You know, sometimes we need sleep. Not a double espresso. Plus it does quite a number on our stomach lining, like literally dissolving it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah. It's a digestive bully especially. I've experienced a little bit of this when I drink it on an empty stomach. I didn't know it dissolved the stomach lining. That is. Well, that's kind of gross. Yeah, that's all there is.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, but it does gross things. So let's talk guts. You know, coffee is naturally acidic, which irritates your stomach lining, so it actually stimulates the production of acid, which lowers your stomach's PH level, and boom. That's what gives you the heartburn, the indigestion and acid reflux some people get.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it's so good for breakfast, though.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, I know. It's so good. But we pair it with a croissant and we just kind of hope for the best. Yeah, but again, it's just right. But it's just masking bad with bad. The acidity, caffeine and carb combo, it moves fast through your digestive tract, which for a lot of people leads to bloating, gas and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the polite thing to say here? It gets things moving, creates a. An urgent restroom situation for most of us. Sure, the smell of coffee will do that for me. I don't even need to drink it.

[Jessica Wynn]

It just triggers it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'll be right back.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, some studies show that moderate coffee drinking can promote some good bacteria in our guts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

But the rate most of us drink it, it's just disrupting the balance of our gut microbiome, which is why things move it. It's called gastrocolic reflex, which is the urge to poop after drinking coffee or some other foods do it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it's just a reflex? It doesn't maybe happen after every cup?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it depends what else is in our stomach for sure, or what type of coffee we're drinking. So coffee can trigger the release of hormones like gastrin, and that increases muscle contractions in our digestive system, which gets our colon excited to rock and roll. Especially in the morning when our colon's already more active.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, got it. So coffee wakes us up all over, so to speak.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, and it does vary from person to person and day to day for a lot of us. Some people are really sensitive to stimulants. And some people, like that old guy you saw drinking the espresso at 9:30. Yeah, they don't experience any effects.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So everyone just metabolizes it differently.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's highly individualized. There's genetics involved, sleep, stress levels, that all matters. So some people metabolize caffeine slowly, and for them, it's basically a legalized anxiety drug. Others, coffee can exasperate anxiety and stress and give us those caffeine, you know, shakes. Some folks sip a cup, they feel like Beyonce, others drink it and enter a full blown existential crisis before 10:00am, you know, so it's like. Yeah, it also affects our health. Like gastrointestinal conditions like ibs, GERD or IBD worsen with drinking coffee.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What are all those letters?

[Jessica Wynn]

So they're pretty self explanatory, right? It's irritable bowel syndrome, gastroesophageal reflux disease, and inflammatory bowel disease. They're all pretty much different levels of diarrhea.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Stop, all right? I don't need more details. I mean, I'm going to get more details, but for coffee drinkers, this is all worth it. Still, probably. I mean, do you think it's like productivity theater? Convincing us we need caffeine to get stuff done? I don't know. I'm pretty convinced though, it's.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you grab a cup of coffee, you open 12 tabs on the computer, you get another cop you off a slack message. You know, it can warp your sense of progress. Like it's like a placebo for motivation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And then my quote unquote favorite, the crash midday post lunch, need another cup. What causes the crash? What's that all about? If it's not fuel, why am I crashing?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, that's just the chemistry when the caffeine from coffee wears off, that a deno scene comes flooding back and suddenly you feel how tired you really are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's the crash. So some of that is increased for those who take their coffee with sugar. Because you're having the sugar crash too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. Because I often don't get a crash, but I also sleep really well. So I. When people are like, oh, I'm having a caffeine crash, I only get that kind of like. Well, candidly it's like, well, I'm in Vegas and I slept three hours and then I had three lattes and then, yeah, then I have a 2pm crash because I'm actually exhausted. I've just been masking it. But normally once my coffee wears off, I'm kind of fine. So we're just fooling ourselves with unsustainable focus. And that makes sense. The double crash from sugar and caffeine in our mocha. So, okay, some coffee is just more unhealthy than others. Is that accurate or did I misunderstand you earlier?

[Jessica Wynn]

No, of course. Coffee has become this fancy drink vehicle delivering milks and sugars and syrups. I mean, I like black coffee. And when I see people ordering those complicated drinks, I always think, I don't think you like the bitter taste of coffee. You just like sweets. But you want it in this caffeine boat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, caffeine boat. Exactly, exactly. Plus, those caramel macchiatos are basically milkshakes. And I've never had one of those, candidly, because it hurts my teeth. It hurts your teeth? That's such a funny thing to say, because I get it. I hate the way my teeth feel after I have something like that. Starbucks once sponsored the show and they were like, you can have all of these drinks. We're gonna send you boxes of different kinds of drinks. And they send us, like, coffee and beans and mugs and stuff. And then they sent us some of these frappuccinos, which were really like, I'll say this, a lot of people love those. I gave them away at a party, but I kind of can't do that because I can only assume there's like 400 calories in something like that.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's probably more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yo. Really? Oh, my God. Yikes.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, they're just. They're desserts in a cardboard cup and have your name misspelled on it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. Get with Gordon written on it. Yes, exactly.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right. You know, blended frappuccinos, caramel swirl lattes with extra whip and sprinkles of fudge covered bacon or whatever the hell people are ordering. I mean, yeah, they're not doing anything. Good for your health. And also, I mean, that's not coffee.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. You know, I wonder if it's like people say, oh, I just need to go get coffee. It's like a weird way you're lying to yourself when you're going to get a milkshake for sure. If you go to Starbucks and get coffee and you end up with a Frappuccino, you can kind of lie to yourself and say that it's healthy. I don't. Or that it's not. At least that it's not a milkshake. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, this whole thing is kind of gross. It's kind of like somebody looks at a cupcake and says, yeah, let's liquefy this bish with a shot of espresso and just call it breakfast.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's not. Not really a wellness elixir, for sure. People are drinking these. All I have was coffee today. Don't understand why I'm not losing weight.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, right.

[Jessica Wynn]

Those drinks pack in hundreds of calories. Mountains of sugar, unhealthy fats. So any potential benefit of the coffee itself gets buried under this landslide of syrup and branding.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, so drinking our coffee black is healthier. That makes sense. Excuse me, I happen to be passing. I thought you'd might like some coffee. Oh, that's very nice of you. Thank you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Cream?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, thank you. I take it black like my men.

[Jessica Wynn]

Classic. I mean, the. The joke, the coffee joke I know is I take my men like I take my coffee. Nice and quiet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ooh, brutal. There's almost. Well, I'm not even gonna finish that. Sent.

[Jessica Wynn]

I'm sure there's more we can hear about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, there's more.

[Jessica Wynn]

But I was actually surprised to come across studies that say people who drink their coffee black and without sugar, they show higher levels of self discipline and perseverance. So apparently a taste for bitterness correlates with stoic personality traits.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, I have to say one thing on the whole, I like my and like, I like my coffee thing. So my buddy, I mean, he's a sweet man. He never says anything like this, which made it even funnier. But he had a girlfriend who cheated on him, and we were like, oh, are you, you know what's gonna happen? You know, you probably shouldn't take her back for reasons. Cause he was sort of debating that. And then a week or two later I was like, hey, how are you doing? And he's like, you know, I realized I like my coffee like I like my women. And I was thinking what everyone else is thinking, which is like, oh, he's gonna start dating African American women. And he goes without someone else's dick in it.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, my God. Genius.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So no update on that, but anyway, yeah. The best part of waking up are the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. When I started this podcast, I thought the hard part would be the interviews. It turns out running a small business means wearing like 12 hats. No idea how to do any of those jobs. Starting with something new. Whether it's a show, a side hustle, or a full blown business that can feel really intimidating. And unless you got a business partner who's also a designer and a copywriter and a marketer and a logistics expert all rolled into one, you're kind of on your own. Unless you have Spotify. Shopify is basically the business partner that you wish you had on day one. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses from brands, you know, like Gymshark, and Mattel to new ventures just getting off the ground. And it's not just a sell your stuff platform. Shopify helps you build a gorgeous online store with ready to use templates so your brand actually looks like a brand, even if you have zero design experience. It's also packed with AI tools, easy to launch email campaigns, social posts, managing inventory to shipping across the globe and handling returns. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Jordan go to shopify.com Jordan shopify.com Jordan this episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Here's the deal with home security, you can't wait until after something sketchy happens to start thinking about it. We had an attempted break in earlier this year while we were home. No one got in, thankfully. But man, that feeling. Someone tried to. It just rattled us. And since then I've been all about proactive security, stopping the threat before it becomes a real problem. That's why we recommend SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe gives us serious peace of mind. When I'm traveling or knocked out cold at 2am, I know somebody's watching over the house and our two little kids. SimpliSafe's new Active Guard Outdoor Protection has live monitoring agents that will actually talk to intruders in real time, flip on spotlights, call the police if needed. There are no contracts, no sneaky fees. Monitoring plans start at about a dollar a day and they back it all with a 60 day money back guarantee. CNET even named Simplisafe the best home security system of 2025. Not too shabby. So if you've been procrastinating on locking down your home, this is your sign. Head to SimpliSafe.com Jordan to get 50% off your new system. With professional monitoring and your first month free, that's 50% [e-mail] Jordan there's no safe like SimpliSafe. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every week, it's because of my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I know you're not booking for a podcast, but I think it will help you as well in your work life, in your personal life. Even if you're retired, you still need this stuff. The relationship science we talk about in the show shows the people who have a lot of friends, large networks, they Live longer, they live happier. And the course is free. There's no shenanigans. I don't need your credit card number. The course is not cheesy. It's very bingeable. Takes a few minutes a day. And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to this course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find it all for [e-mail] all right, now back to Skeptical Sunday. So, all right, back to stoicism. So people who drink black coffee are gritty badasses, and people who drink vanilla lattes are what, like fragile little hedonists like me?

[Jessica Wynn]

Sure, I guess, I guess that's one way to frame it. I mean, I think the science is less judgy. It just says, bitter taste, stronger will.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so let's say I ditched the sugar, I ditch the frothy milk, whatever. What does the research say about the health benefits of drinking coffee? Because I know that there are some. There's antioxidants or something in there, yada, yada. I don't know.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's kind of crazy to sort through all of the, the beneficial information.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Because there's just a lot of billion dollar products and coffees. Science gets tangled up in all this corporate sponsorship.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It does seem like every week there's new headlines that are often that kind of conflict, like, coffee causes dementia. Coffee prevents cancer. Coffee makes you immortal. If you're a juggling Virgo with type AB negative blood, what is going on with all of that? That, that always to me seems like industry sponsored stuff. Whenever there's just an influx of crazy headlines like, this is so good for you. You should drink it all the time.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah. I mean, the science is held hostage by the coffee industrial complex. You know, I mean, the problem with the research I've gone through is that the coffee industry funds a lot of the positive research. So you've got these billion dollar brands. Yeah, they're selling the idea that you're not productive unless you're caffeinated. But more than half of the studies I read are sponsored by companies with names like beantech or Roastcore. I mean, they're actual names. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Oh, that sounds like dystopia version. No, those are the actual names. That's really funny. I just imagine researchers typing up their findings with the shakiest caffeine fueled hands, like, no, no, no, no. It's so good for you guys. Trust me, trust me.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know the bean lobby is Strong. So it's. It's complicated, but it seems that moderate coffee intake, which is like one to three cups a day, can offer some benefits. So coffee, it does have antioxidants, and it's shown to provide some liver protection. Depending how you look at it, that cognitive boost can be listed in the benefits column too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So coffee is actually good for your liver. That's weird. Why?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, weirdly, Yeah. I mean, it appears to be. Caffeine is shown to slow liver scarring and reduce inflammation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Maybe even help prevent liver cancer, according to some research. That's not proven, but there's some things that point to that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How, though? I mean, I thought coffee was good for my health because it keeps me from dozing off in traffic.

[Jessica Wynn]

But it turns out that adenosine receptor coffee blocks it, contributes to fibrosis, which is the liver scarring, and blocking it can slow down the progression of it. So the antioxidants in coffee, they do have the potential to help your liver fight off the fatty buildup by breaking down glucose. And there's other chemicals in coffee, like cafestol and Kahwal, that may have cancer fighting properties. But the research is really mixed. The acid is shown to have the potential to fight hepatitis.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's actually incredible because that's a really gnarly disease. And you can. I think it's uncurable. Some versions of it are.

[Jessica Wynn]

Anyway, potential is the word we have to lean in on there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure, sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it sounds like it can be really incredible, but there are more efficient ways to help out our livers without drinking pots and pots of coffee. So moderation is key. And some individuals may experience adverse effects from coffee, like increased cholesterol. Dave Grohl was famously rushed to the hospital several years ago because he was so addicted to coffee, he suffered these, like, unwanted effects of too much caffeine.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jesus. Was he mainlining the. The fresh pots? How much coffee do you need to go to the er?

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. I mean, how many gallons was he drinking? The FDA estimates that 10 to 14,000 milligrams can be a lethal dosage, and that's a lot. So as long as you don't slam, like 30 cups of coffee in a short am of time, you'll be good. But I think that's what he was doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, my buddy who had 16 shots of espresso is at least halfway there.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, he had to be close.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I have to say, it's the lamest rock star Affliction, but it's a pretty good argument to watch how many cups you drink throughout the day. Then again, I mean, he's not going to die of a heroin overdose drinking coffee. So you got that going for you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, he's just addicted to caffeine. And coffee is caffeine delivery, full stop. And high doses, which would be 12 cups or more, will interrupt normal sleep patterns. So when you drink in excess, it's raising your blood pressure and it can lead to heart palpitations. So, I mean, I've definitely felt the sweats from a strong cup.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Coffee is the kind of addiction that's disguised as routine. It's like an addiction nobody wants to name. Do people withdraw? I guess they must if you stop drinking coffee. Eh.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh yeah. I mean, have you ever been out a coffee for in the morning? What happens?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. I have back in my sort of super monster energy drink coffee, every time, every morning, days. I used to get a headache if I waited too long to start drinking that stuff in the morning. It doesn't happen anymore though. I'm just way down on all that stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it just sounds like you really are in moderation of how much you drink. But I mean, it doesn't happen to everyone. And when it does happen, it is withdrawal. So your head pounds, you feel fatigue, you might be depressed. I mean, that's not enjoyment, that's dependency with good branding. So if it were any other substance, we'd stage an intervention. Right. But because it's in a cute mug, we call it self care. It's kind of ugly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

You know, more studies claim coffee isn't healthy. It's just a common, socially acceptable addiction and no one really wants to say it because everyone's in on the fix, you know?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. Yeah. It's socially acceptable. It's kind of like alcohol is totally fine until you start committing crimes or beating people up or something. Right. It's. Coffee doesn't do that. So you think like, oh, what's the harm? It's socially accepted because we all needed to tolerate each other's company. It's the opiate of the middle class, I suppose.

[Jessica Wynn]

Or it's the speedball of the middle class.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Okay, so the ritual, the taste, the $7 latte with a flower drawn in the foam are all part of the fact that most people just need it to function. So besides messing with my sleep and digestion, I suppose so. Okay, hypothetical. What if we all just stopped? What if we all quit coffee cold turkey? Collective Global detox.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, we'd crash and we'd crash hard, I think. There'd be weeping in the streets, office mutinies, full blown adult tantrums.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sounds like LA on a Tuesday.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right.

[Jessica Wynn]

But then, I mean, maybe we'd rest. Maybe we'd look around and realize we don't hate mornings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That would take a lot of convincing in some people. What's the good in quitting?

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, improved sleep is the most noticeable, so anxiety and blood pressure will lower when we detox from coffee and caffeine. And because caffeine interferes with the absorption of certain nutrients like calcium and iron, quitting coffee improves those levels. So for a lot of people, it also alleviates heartburn and acid reflux. And an overlooked benefit. Your teeth get whiter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Well, of course, I guess that makes sense. Are there drawbacks then to quitting coffee?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, and they happen real quick. So when you quit caffeine, you can experience headaches, fatigues, irritability, like we talked about. I mean, a lot of people rely on caffeine to boost their energy. So quitting it makes you feel really fatigued at first. I mean, I brew a pot of coffee in the morning and I finish it throughout the day, so that's about 12 cups. I might not put as many grounds as some people in, but regardless, I did this research, I'm like, I'm gonna see what happens. It was about day four or five. All of a sudden I was having a lot of green tea, so I'm just getting my caffeine from somewhere else. And then after a week, ran to the grocery store to buy a bag of grounds because I had, I was like an addict. I had to have that taste. I had to have that coffee. So.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

You can experience mood swings. You can deny yourself the little pleasure of your morning ritual. And it, it's. You're losing an aspect of your routine and that's really hard to replace is what I found. So it's kind of similar to quitting any drug, except everybody thinks it seems crazy to quit this one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

You know, there's like cultural resistance. And one motivator to help at least cut back is you'd be helping the environment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Based on the amount of coffee we drink, are the environmental effects just out of control?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, coffee's. It's pretty harsh on the environment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of course it is. So how do the beans make it to my grinder, dare I ask?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. The life of a coffee bean. It starts in tropical soil. It takes about three to four years for A coffee bean to grow into the trees that produce these small, all cherry like fruits.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whoa. So coffee's a fruit, like a fruit salad fruit?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, I don't recommend throwing it in a fruit salad, but okay. It comes from a fruit called the coffee cherry. And within those red cherries are seeds we call beans, and that's what we use to brew coffee. So farmers pick the ripe fruit, they dry the beans inside. Once they're dried, they get skinned, sorted, shipped around the world as unroasted coffee beans, also known as green coffee because they're literally green. Then they're roasted, ground, and brewed into the $8 drink you sip.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So do we drink green coffee? I don't think I've ever seen that. All my beans are roasted and brown.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, you can, but the brew tastes like lawn clippings that were soaked in hot water. So it's really bitter and really grassy. It's everything I've read. It sounds pretty unpleasant.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Yum. Artisanal flavors of. Of mowed grasses, and somehow we've industrialized the hell out of it. I mean, coffee is pretty affordable for something that passes through a ton of hands and ships across the world, so everybody can feel more awake at 7:00am I mean, that's pretty incredible that it's only whatever amount you pay.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know we complain about the price, but it's. Yeah, it's wild what it goes through. And the whole process, though, it's really brutal on the environment. It's basically the ExxonMobil of beverages. So to meet the global demand, a lot of coffee farmers, they clear cut forest so that the coffee plants grow in plenty of sun, because the more sun, the faster growth, the more beans. But that also means fewer trees, less biodiversity, and confused migratory birds.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So there's a very clear link between coffee and deforestation.

[Jessica Wynn]

Definitely. In fact, the World Wildlife Fund found that of the 50 countries in the world with the highest deforestation rates, 37 of them are coffee producing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yikes.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, yeah. Coffee farmers, they. They also focus more and more on monoculture. We've talked about monoculture before. I think when we discussed in the banana episode.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, right, right. That's growing like one thing. Is that what you said?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, exactly. You. It's the practice of growing only one type of a plant, and it cranks out the volume. But monoculture, it decreases biodiversity, It. It interferes with animals migratory patterns, and it increases the chance of disease and infestation. So one plant gets a disease, they all get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right, right, right. Because if The I forget like these boll weevily looking things are like some sort of rot.

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If it only attacks one kind of thing. But that's all you're growing for miles and miles and miles. Everything can get it right. Okay, so because we start our days with a cafe au lait, birds can't find their way south in the winter and plants have a higher chance of dying. I don't. The bird thing is interesting.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, well, when you' trees, that's a big problem of deforestation. They don't have, I don't know exactly the biology of it, but yeah, it messes with their patterns.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would imagine if they can't rest in large numbers anymore in that area, they just have to go somewhere else. But what if there's nowhere else to go because you have a giant barrier of coffee plantations in the, in the area? Man, talk about a butterfly effect. Coffee's making me bitter and I'm not even drinking it right now, you know.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well then you're definitely not gonna like hearing about what it does to water. Like one cup in the morning takes 140 liters of water to produce.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Get out of here. That's insane.

[Jessica Wynn]

One cup? Yeah. That's over 36 gallons of water for your one mug.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. That is fricking ridiculous. I would not have guessed that. Should I feel worse about a pot of coffee or a long shower? I think 36 gallons of water. Coffee, 36 gallons of water. That's like a 20 minute long shower. And that's a ridiculous amount of time to spend in the shower. That's so it's basically two showers worth of water to drink a cup of coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

I think that's about right. And know it's just not the amount of water required to grow the plants. It's what happens to the water along the way too. So a part of the coffee process is called wet milling, which it's pretty much steeping the fruits in water, which often is cut with sulfur and that softens them so it makes it easier to get the beans out. That wastewater ends up in rivers and streams, contaminating the water. It kills fish, it kills plants. And once the coffee reaches us, there's even more problems.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What more pro. How much worse can it get?

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, think about it. You know, every year billions and billions of coffee cups are thrown away just by Americans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right, that makes sense.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Most of those cups you get in Starbucks, you know, they can't be recycled because of that sneaky plastic lining that keeps it insulated so it doesn't burn our hands.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

So they end up in landfills, oceans, international waterways. These compostable and reusable coffee cups, they can help. But disposable cups and those single use coffee pods for the Keurig and things, they are widely used. So it's. It's just a major issue.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. The pods, always. They seem wasteful, right? They're made out of aluminum and they're covered with foil and you use it to make one cup of coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know they're horrible and you can buy reusable pods, but they're gross and a mess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it's the message.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's just easier to pop one in. I mean, I get it. You're not thinking of. Holy shit. If everybody's doing this. What Waste it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

Environmental catastrophe, though, that's just some of the fun. Like, wait till we talk about the labor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I was going to ask about this. I know where this probably ends. Slave coffee, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, you nailed it. Coffee production exploits workers. There's child labor issues, and in some cases, literal slavery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have you ever heard of coffee enemas? Well, here's something else you can put up your butt. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Saily. Traveling soon. Do not make the mistake I made in China and Taiwan. I begged family and friends to help me set up esims to get data. Total headache. Then people were calling and texting me on my US number and I couldn't get it. It was such a huge pain. That's why I switched to Saily. It's an ESIM app made by the folks behind NordVPN. So you already know they take privacy and performance pretty seriously. And I'm telling you so easy. Download the app, tell them what country you're headed to. They cover over 190 countries. No more hunting for local SIM cards. And the plan's way more affordable than what you get from your carrier. So whether you're hopping regions or you just need reliable data for a quick trip, Saily makes it easy to find something that fits your travel plans and your budget. Plus, since it's built by the NORDVPN crew, it comes with built in security features most other ESIMs don't even touch. Like ad blocking, virtual location changes, web protection while you browse. That means you're not just connected, you're actually protected. I've already got Saily set up for my upcoming trip to Portugal. It'll automatically activate as soon as I land and save me a bunch of money. So if you travel internationally, definitely download Saily before your next trip. Get an exclusive 15% discount on saily data plans. Use code Jordan Harbinger at checkout. Download the Saily app or go to saly.comjordanharbinger today. That's S A I L Y.comjordanharbinger I've got Homes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the ho. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com Deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. So I was prepared to hear that coffee farm workers have it pretty rough. But so yours. Actual slavery, like, not exaggerated, not like, oh, really low wages, but like human trafficking level slavery.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, people are just trapped on some of these farms and a lot of adults do work for some money, but it's like 1 to 10% of the final retail price. They work insanely long hours, usually in the hot sun. They're exposed to extreme weather and pesticides. It's. It's awful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, but even when the economics get bad, farm workers, they still got to meet their quotas. I read something where I can't remember where this was, but these workers were essentially lured, slash trafficked in to. I don't even want to say where because it was like Hawaii or was it Thailand or was it Colombia? I can't remember. But they basically got there and found out that they weren't going to be able to leave because the passports were confiscated.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that definitely happens as, as well as is. It doesn't matter about economics. People need their coffee in the morning. And so to meet those quotas, they often bring their kids along to the coffee farm to work.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh yeah. It seems like a lot of this labor intensive farming that takes place in developing countries does include child labor. I've heard that before. I remember that from the chocolate episode, the bananas episodes. Episodes I've done about human trafficking. Kids are making like bricks and stuff like that. It's.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's sad, but it's true. You know, these kids, they're not, not officially employees and they're not getting paid. They just need the extra hands and they work the same brutal long days alongside their family. You know, heavy manual labor, the toxic chemicals, the industrial machines, the crazy heat. Kids shouldn't be around.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And I guess it's not like they're there because they love coffee farming or.

[Jessica Wynn]

They chose the job, not survival for them and their families. They don't have options or bargaining power. I mean, imagine your kids try and negotiate health insurance or a lunch break, you know, like, hey, sorry boss, if you don't pay me more, I'm off to the plantation across the street. It has free snacks, right? Yeah, that doesn't happen.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Plantation down the road has a micro kitchen. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. It's wild that this is part of a product that most of us drink every single day. But this only happens with coffee from. Hopefully with coffee from shady java salesmen in the Congo or something. Right? Right. Or is this everywhere?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, no. Sadly, in fact, earlier this year, Starbucks and Nespresso were both caught up in child labor controversies after an investigation found that children under 13 were working on farms in Guatemala that supply both of those coffee companies with their beans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Starbucks, the place that sells Sarah McLaughlin CDs by the register. And don't even get me started on Nespresso. You know how many hours I've spent in those doors sipping Because I drink it at the store. Sipping. Delicious, somewhat, but barely banana flavored coffee with hints of cocoa and hazelnut out of those teeny tiny little cups. Come on.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And it's not just the children who are exploited for that pretentious moment. You can have.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Jessica Wynn]

So what you were describing earlier with people getting stuck on these farms, sometimes it's called bonded labor and it's rampant in the coffee biz. So bonded labor is where someone pledges their services as a security for the repayment of a debt and the terms of repayment are often unclear, and the person holding the debt has all this control over the laborer in question. Which is probably what you were thinking of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, that's right. Right. Okay, so this is like, if you agreed to pay off your student loans by working 12 hours a day in a factory owned by Wells Fargo, you can start to begin to imagine what being a bonded laborer feels like. You show up and you go, okay, I got $64,000 in student loans. And they're like, well, $64,000 plus interest. And you're like, cool, let me see the spreadsheet with that on it. And they're like, nah, we'll tell you when you've paid it off. Go work.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Sallie Mae's like, no, I have these.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tasks for you to do for the next 20 years.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, tragically, bonded labor is just a huge part of the global coffee industry. Back in 2011, for example, the U.S. equal Employment Opportunity Commission, they filed a lawsuit against eight different farms in Hawaii and Washington State for forcing hundreds of Thai men to work in their fields between 2003 and 2007.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think this is the thing I was thinking of. Yeah. It was Thai men who were trafficked to Hawaii, of all places. To America. Yes. Like, what? Yeah, that was shocking for me.

[Jessica Wynn]

And they legally entered the US and they paid recruitment fees, so they were promised decent salaries. But then when they arrived, their employers confiscated the passports. They forced them to live in cramped facilities. They would threaten them with deportation. I mean, the case was awful. They physically assaulted some of them, starved them as they worked off their debt.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Wynn]

It happened in America.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is deeply disturbing. Especially I've been to a coffee farm, now that I think about it, in Hawaii, and now I'm like, was it one of the ones with human trafficking?

[Jessica Wynn]

I came and I thought it was so beautiful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Now I feel that, yeah, it was. And you're like, oh, look at this international crew of people just out here in paradise. And they're just like, take, you know, sending. Slipping you a note with your latte that says, help me. I mean, this is all. Why are you laughing? You're terrible person. Jessica, this is. This is all deeply disturbing. Here I was drinking a little joe to get the old engine started in the morning, and apparently I'm contributing to the demise of the planet and the basic human rights of my fellow man. Cool.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, real cool. Real cool. I mean, yeah. Once coffee companies realized how effed up the coffee. Coffee production actually is, they. Some of them started paying Certification organizations to create standards and oversee compliance within the supply chains.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. So those labels tell us more about the workers quality of life than the quality of the product. We've looked at this in several. I think there was. We might have even done a whole episode about fair trade. But we've looked at this in several episodes. Fair trade does not mean ethical and everybody's happy and peachy.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right.

[Jessica Wynn]

But it does mean that some organizations and businesses are trying at least. So the most. Yeah, the most prominent one that people are probably familiar with is Fair Trade usa. There's Fair Trade International, there's Rainforest alliance, there's UTS certified. Starbucks actually has its own certification called Cafe C A F E which it does the same thing as others, but makes Starbucks feel even more special, I guess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And also it's like, well, we've certified ourselves and we feel good about that. For those who don't know, when you buy Fair Trade coffee or a similar certified brand, it's showing you they're doing the work to pay farmers a minimum price and give them basic labor rights without contributing to child labor. And that hopefully can be. Yeah, hopefully. And that can be sort of flexible, I suppose, but it's better than nothing. And I do go for that stuff because I really don't want my coffee brewed in ecological ruin and human suffering because it's gross to think about. And basically the label's like shorthand for not being a total dick to the people who grow your coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, pretty much. And, and sellers that want to grow their coffee even more sustainably, they can partner with a certifier like the Rainforest Alliance. What they do is a little extra. They ensure that the seller is conserving biodiversity, avoiding the deforestation practices and actually reforesting non productive farms. So Kenco and Costa, they're two brands that signed on to this program, but they're not readily available in the States.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. I did cry at the end of Avatar. So these brands sound like my, my cup of tea. That is indeed somewhat comforting.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, not that comforting though. I mean the problem is that Fair Trade, it doesn't address the environmental impacts of coffee. And so the additional cost to farmers for complying with these standards by avoiding the child labor, providing pesticide safety suits, doing extra paperwork, pretty much, it can really offset the higher selling prices they get.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Gotta love the paradoxes of capitalism, I suppose.

[Jessica Wynn]

The system does not work perfectly. And unlike with organic food, there's no government agency to oversee the ethical certification of specifically coffee. So there are brands like just Us Peace Coffee, which is actually in a lot of stores and a couple more. These are more conscientious brands trying to enforce policies that allow workers and farmers to form co ops that advocate for their rights and concerns.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What about streamlining the supply chain or something?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it's hard, right? I mean you can buy direct trade coffee, which is coffee roasters, directly purchasing from farmers and so they earn a higher premium for their product. But it's a lot of work for the consumer. You have to start asking your favorite coffee shop where they source their beans if you want to start buying ethically.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's not like Starbucks is going to slap a label on your Frappuccino saying enjoy this tasty beverage. A farmer with heatstroke and his hardworking, malnourished 10 year old son made it all possible. I mean, the human costs of the supply chain are very remote and very well hidden and obviously by design.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And when you're just in a rush to grab a cup of coffee, you're not really thinking of all of these horrible conditions. Of course there is something well hidden that you, you might like about coffee. So throughout Africa and Asia, there's this small nocturnal cat and it's called the civet cat. And these cats are naturally drawn to the best ripest fruits on the coffee plant and they eat the fruit whole. They also expel the beans whole. So the logic is if they're eating the best beans, then no.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my gosh. Tell me people are not drinking cat poop coffee.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, Jordan cat coffee beans, they're like $20 an ounce or around $300 a pound. And there's even a brewery that uses the beans to make a really expensive coffee port.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Imagine your job is to follow this cat around all night and pick up its poop and then get the beans out. My God.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Talk about working conditions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, I am out. Are there, are there alternatives to coffee?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean there's decaf coffee, right? And it seems to have the same potential protective effects on your liver. And decaf coffee is a better option for those sensitive to caffeine.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But yeah, but decaf is for quitters. And I think drinking that would make me feel even worse because you're still getting all the exploitability, farming and labor and stuff. And then it's just all in vain because you do all that. You don't even get a caffeine buzz. So it's like, eh, what's the point? Aren't there any sort of real alternatives? I'M always seeing ads for coffee, like drinks that aren't actually coffee. We've even advertised some on the show. There's various forms of other things that get ground up and made into coffee. Ish things.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, sure. There's a. There's a popular thing. It's called poor man's coffee, which is just chicory. That's just like that woody plant with the blue and white flowers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's been used as a coffee substitute in Europe since 1766 when Frederick the Great of Prussia, he restricted coffee imports, so Prussians just started brewing up chicory instead.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is chicory any good? I. I mean, probably not because nobody's heard of this or at least I haven't.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think it, it would be your. Be your thing. You might find it in some crunchy like vegan cafes maybe, but it's caffeine free and it tastes kind of nutty and earthy. It's got maybe a coffee like flavor if you really close your eyes. It's just not as bitter as regular coffee. I've actually had really yummy mushroom brews. And of course there's tea.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think they're any healthier or more ethical though, you know, and it's just. There's nothing like the real thing. But the healthiest alternative that actually gets you energized in the morning is an apple.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So just brew an apple.

[Jessica Wynn]

No, no, no. You just eat it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ah.

[Jessica Wynn]

Studies show an apple in the morning is a better wake me up. Because apples provide natural sugars and that helps energize you without the jitters or crash associated with the caffeine. They also contain fiber, which slows down the release of sugar into your bloodstream, leading to more sustained energy level throughout the day. But when I did my little experiment for the week, I was trying to have an apple in the morning and I still craved that bitter taste. So yeah, it just hasn't caught on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wish naps would catch on, but it's impossible for most of our lifestyles. I think it would be, it would be amazing if the real health trend of 2025 is not some sort of weird mushroom latte or a caffeine tonic, but taking a stinking nap. We need everyone to just remember that we're allowed to rest.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I actually have coffee rules for myself. Now's probably a good time to talk about this. I have a caffeine curfew and I also use an app called hi Coffee. So I will not drink caffeine after 2 or 4pm it depends on what day it is, what I have to do the next day, usually 2pm I just won't have any caffeine after that at all. And I use an app called hi Coffee. We'll link it in the show notes. Hi, coffee. As in like, hello, coffee. H I. And you just put in like Diet Coke espresso latte from Starbucks. And it shows you if you're going to be able to sleep and at what time. And also it shows you, are you getting the max benefit from caffeine or did you just have enough caffeine throughout the day to be, like, sort of untired? I think it's called a caffeine boost or something in the app where if you have enough at once, it's like, okay, now you're kind of ready to work out. And then you should just stop drinking coffee after that. And then unless you have something else that you have to do, it's very cheap and effective and it shows you exactly how much caffeine you need so you don't drink anymore. And what I love is that sleep line where it's like, if you want to go to bed at night, you better not have any coffee right now because here's where the graph is. And you're like, okay, I'm done.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that's incredible. I mean, there are a few different caffeine tracking apps. That definitely takes discipline. So, yeah, I don't think people drinking lattes will be as into it. But I mean, you know, maybe we do just need the crash, though. So if we all did stop drinking the coffee for a week, you know, I did notice that, that, hey, you save a little bit of money when you're not drinking it every day. And. But it's just so hard. And if you're relying on apps to, like, monitor your caffeine, I mean, that really shows how addicted we all are. I mean, people love their coffee. People love coffee so much, it's in beauty products now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really?

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, coffee's incorporated into a variety of beauty regimens that there's face and body scrubs, there's masks, there's eye creams, body creams, there's even hair treatments. So the caffeine in coffee is believed by some to offer benefits like exfoliation, reduction of puffiness and dark circles, even, you know, anti cellulite effects.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So people are using coffee externally, really?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I definitely wouldn't rush to lathering up with the coffee grinds just yet, but the wellness community has decided it's a good exfoliant and good for the skin. I dug into this a little bit, and the science shows that coffee and other caffeinated drinks can actually interfere with collagen formation. And collagen's essential. It's an essential protein that gives your skin a youthful look. So by quitting caffeine, you may actually be able to slow down the development of fine lines and wrinkles and thus delay the visible signs of aging.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I thought the antioxidants in coffee help with wrinkles. What the hell?

[Jessica Wynn]

You're right. Sort of. But it's not the coffee that helps with the wrinkles. It's definitely the antioxidants in the caffeine. But there's just many other ways to get dietary antioxidants. Coffee is a good source, but it doesn't provide the same antioxidants as fruits and vegetables. So, you know, I mean, you can decide for yourself. Have a ton of coffee or, you know, a salad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so, yeah, caffeine is an antioxidant, but then also, you can get it from something else. Okay, that's probably a better idea. So what's your advice? Sure. Should we. Should we stop drinking coffee or not?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it's unfair, isn't it? You know, it's. I feel like I've kind of been scammed since I started drinking coffee at 15. There is a big part of me that thinks coffee might be the biggest con on society ever. So, I mean, my advice is read up on the brands you buy. Research the production standards of your favorite suppliers. You know, ask your barista at your local coffee shop where they get their beans. Encourage your local supermarket to carry more certified brands. You know, asking a few good questions will usually tell you most of what you need to know about the quality of your coffee. And if you have the willpower to quit coffee, then just go burn your loyalty. Punch card. Eat an apple, drink some water, take a nap. But, you know, stop pretending like your exhaustion's a badge of honor. And if you must drink coffee, admit you're hooked and move on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? So we're not saying give it up. We're saying wake up to what's waking you up. Drink what you want, but know what you're drinking. And admit it's not just about energy. Take a nap. This episode, by the way, is brought to you by Duncan. No, I'm kidding. They'd have a caffeine stroke. In fact, I'm a little bit like, gotta make sure that we don't put Starbucks ads on this one. Thank you Jessica for brewing up the bitter facts.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, my pleasure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thanks everybody so much for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me jordanordanharbinger.com show notes on the website, Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her sub stacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to those in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Masrati. Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I don't know squat about coffee, as you know from this episode. So do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show. Maybe talk to a real doctor somewhere. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with a caffeine addict who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if everything you've been told about building wealth is total bs? Scott Galloway joins me to dismantle the myths and lay out a brutally honest roadmap to financial security in today's economy.

[C]

The greatest bump in mortality for men is one when their spouse dies and two when they stop working. And when they lose their social fabric and their purpose, they get inactive, sometimes depressed. And when you get inactive and depressed, your brain kind of sends out a hormone or a message saying, oh, it's time to die. This person isn't adding any value. Supposedly for every additional year you work, your life expectancy actually goes up. So what they don't teach you is the smart thing to do is the moment you have assets, start diversifying. And here's the thing. You don't need to be a hero. You don't need to find the needle in the haystack, figure out what you're good at, find a way to save more than you spend. Realize how fast time is going to go and diversify. This is what you become passionate about, is when you get to our age, you become really passionate about taking care of your kids. You become really passionate about taking care of your parents and being able to take your spouse to really wonderful places. You become passionate about the absence of stress from your relationships that not having economic security injects into every relationship. Success in entrepreneurship is your ability to endure rejection, ability to endure failure. And entrepreneurship is really just a synonym for salespeople. Don't be in idiot. Follow these simple equations and you're going to be fine. Develop economic security for you and your family by finding something you're great at. Make some money, Save some money. Understand how fast time is going to go, and diversify.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you've ever wondered why working hard isn't enough, check out episode 1074 with Scott Galloway. Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch doesn't. McDonald's breakfast.