1191: Digital Nomads | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1191: Digital Nomads | Skeptical Sunday

Introduction

In Episode 1191 of The Jordan Harbinger Show, titled "Digital Nomads | Skeptical Sunday," host Jordan Harbinger engages in a deep dive into the burgeoning lifestyle of digital nomadism. Joined by co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynn, they dissect the allure, reality, and repercussions of the digital nomad movement. This episode aims to peel back the glossy veneer often portrayed on social media and uncover the substantive truths behind the digital nomad mythos.

Defining Digital Nomadism

The conversation begins with clarifying who digital nomads are. Jessica Wynn explains that a digital nomad is someone who works remotely while traveling and residing in various locations, relying primarily on Wi-Fi to perform their jobs. Unlike remote workers who maintain a fixed home base, digital nomads embrace a lifestyle of constant movement.

Notable Quote:

"Digital nomads are often developers, designers, writers, or running some form of content-based businesses, which sometimes is just talking and posting about being a digital nomad." – [04:39]

Historical Context and Growth

Jessica traces the origin of the term "digital nomad" back to 1997, highlighting how technological advancements have enabled this lifestyle. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 acted as a catalyst, massively increasing the number of individuals adopting remote work, thereby fueling the digital nomad trend.

Notable Quote:

"As of 2023, over 17 million Americans call themselves digital nomads. Yeah, that's up 130% just from 2019." – [06:48]

Demographics and Lifestyle

Contrary to the stereotype of young, carefree wanderers, the average digital nomad is 39 years old, with about 70% engaging in nomadism full-time. The majority are straight, white Americans, predominantly from the U.S., U.K., Russia, Canada, and Germany. Interestingly, a significant portion—around 25%—travel with their families, challenging the notion that this lifestyle is exclusive to single individuals.

Notable Quote:

"Over 90% have some form of higher education, and more than half have a bachelor's. It's more of an MBA with a yoga mat." – [09:03]

Motivations Behind the Movement

Digital nomads are driven by a desire for freedom, the pursuit of travel and exploration, and the financial benefit of living in countries with a lower cost of living while earning in stronger currencies. However, Jessica points out that this often results in a financial reshuffling rather than true financial freedom.

Notable Quote:

"The pitch is that digital nomads value the freedom to work from anywhere and choose their lifestyle. The most common claims are the pursuit of travel and stretching your income by living affordably." – [11:15]

Challenges and Realities

Despite the enticing portrayal, the digital nomad lifestyle comes with profound challenges:

1. Connectivity Issues:

   • Reliable internet is paramount, yet often inconsistent, leading to productivity issues and security risks.
   • Notable Quote:

     "Logging in from a different public Wi-Fi network with crap security is a great way to get hacked." – [12:04]

2. Visa and Legal Complications:

   • Navigating various visa requirements is a bureaucratic nightmare, especially for individuals from countries with less powerful passports.
   • Notable Quote:

     "Playing a never-ending game of where in the world can I legally exist without getting deported." – [17:40]

3. Financial Strain:

   • Contrary to popular belief, living as a digital nomad isn't necessarily cheaper. Costs like short-term housing, travel, co-working spaces, and higher-priced amenities can add up.
   • Notable Quote:

     "Constantly paying for short-term housing, rentals, travel costs, co-working fees... it's not financial freedom." – [16:49]

4. Isolation and Mental Health:

   • The lack of a stable community leads to loneliness and emotional stress, exacerbated by the transient nature of interactions.
   • Notable Quote:

     "Loneliness is a big negative of the nomadic lifestyle." – [38:18]

5. Impact on Work-life Balance:

   • Managing work across time zones and maintaining a consistent income is exhausting and often leads to burnout.
   • Notable Quote:

     "You're still working hard, just with more sand and less stability." – [12:04]

Impact on Local Economies and Communities

The influx of digital nomads can strain local infrastructures, drive up living costs, and displace local residents. Popular destinations like Puerto Escondido, Mexico, and Bali have witnessed rapid gentrification, leading to resentment among locals and a loss of cultural authenticity.

Notable Quote:

"When digital nomads roll into town and overpay for smoothies and clothes and snatch up rentals, it warps the economy for the people who actually live there." – [44:29]

The Rise of Digital Nomadism Enterprises

To cater to this growing demographic, businesses are emerging that offer specialized services such as digital nomad visas, co-living spaces, and borderless banking solutions. Companies like Outsight and Roam are developing infrastructure in hotspots to attract and accommodate nomadic professionals.

Notable Quote:

"Developers in New York City are building common goods rooms in apartment buildings... you can rent a vacuum, rent a printer, rent a lamp." – [54:17]

Scams and the Digital Nomad Course Industrial Complex

A significant concern highlighted is the proliferation of dubious courses that promise easy pathways to becoming a digital nomad. These often operate as pyramid schemes, preying on individuals' desires for freedom and financial success without delivering substantive value.

Notable Quote:

"These courses are only selling pretty beach pics and testimonials. Behind the scenes, people who fall for it are broke and burned out." – [30:26]

Sustainable Practices and Community Responsibility

Jessica emphasizes the importance of responsible tourism and sustainable practices. Digital nomads are encouraged to support local economies by avoiding over-reliance on tourist-centric services, learning local languages, reducing waste, and respecting cultural norms.

Notable Quote:

"Go off the beaten path, stop crowding the same handful of hotspots, and contribute to the local economy." – [53:14]

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a sobering reflection on the digital nomad lifestyle. While it offers undeniable freedoms and experiences, the associated challenges and impacts are substantial. Jordan and Jessica advocate for a more informed and responsible approach to digital nomadism, urging aspirants to weigh the realities against the romanticized portrayals and to contribute positively to the communities they join.

Final Thought:

"Freedom might not be somewhere else. It might just be redefining your home." – [57:32]

Key Takeaways:

• Digital Nomad Definition: Remote workers who travel frequently without a fixed home base.
• Demographics: Predominantly middle-aged, educated Americans, with a significant portion traveling with families.
• Motivations: Desire for freedom, travel, and financial benefits through location arbitrage.
• Challenges: Connectivity issues, visa complications, financial strains, isolation, and burnout.
• Impact on Host Communities: Strain on local economies, gentrification, and cultural displacement.
• Scams: Proliferation of misleading courses promising easy digital nomadism.
• Sustainability: Emphasis on responsible tourism and supporting local economies.

This episode serves as a critical examination of the digital nomad movement, balancing its enticing aspects with its underlying complexities and consequences.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jessica Wynn]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jessica Wynn]

Oh what you eating?

[Jordan Harbinger]

The new banana split cookie from AM pm. All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors. That sounds amazing.

[Jessica Wynn]

Can I have a bite?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sorry but no. But you can't split the banana split. Not even a little. Not even a crumb. What if no, please. Mine when it's too legit to split. That's cravenience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app AM PM too much good stuff plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Jessica Wynn on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays, though, it's Skeptical Sunday, a rotating guest co host and I are going to break down a topic that you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions. Topics such as why expiration dates on food and medication are kind of nonsense. Acupuncture, astrology, recycling, homeopathy, hypnosis, Internet porn, diet pills and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, crime and cults, and more. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on Skeptical Sunday, we drag the buzz phrase digital nomads out of its beach hammock and see if there's any substance under all the sand on the surface. Digital nomads are the ultimate fantasy remote workers untethered from cubicles, jet setting to sip iced coffee in Bali, and then they work from a rooftop bar in Lisbon, making passive income along the way. But what is behind the Instagram posts and YouTube clips of perfect sunsets and exotic locations? Is it freedom? Is it fraud? Is it a cultural shift? Or just a new way to burn out? But with better weather. Joining me today is writer and researcher Jessica Wynn Suggests first, what is a digital nomad in the first place? And more importantly, how's the weather in Bora Bora?

[Jessica Wynn]

I wish I knew, but it's. It's pretty nice here in Southern California, so no complaints. I mean, in theory, a digital nomad is someone who works remotely while traveling and living in different locations. So all they need is wi fi and they can do their job anywhere. A beach, a hostel, a weird co working space in Croatia with beanbag chairs and bad coffee.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It sounds nice. I'll take it.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, does it, you know, I like my own bed, I like my own shower. Coming home from a trip is part of the joy of traveling for me. Like, oh, when you lay down on your fresh pillow, you know?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

So the nomadic life is deep. Definitely not for everyone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, traveling for work can be cool, but constantly on a working vacation, it kind of sounds like, well, one not a vacation. And it kind of sounds like a headache with questionable accommodations involved. Yeah, right.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, just because you answer slack messages from an Airbnb sometimes doesn't make you a digital nomad. It's not a job title as much as a lifestyle choice and honestly a brand.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So is being a digital nomad? Is this a career path? I don't, I mean, I've never seen a dropdown list that says digital nomad. It's not on any job application I've ever seen.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's not a job title or an escape from work. Digital nomads do work and they work a lot, just not in stereotypical fixed locations.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When did this become a thing? It seems pretty new.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's new ish, but it's older than you might guess. The term digital nomad was coined in 1997 by Sugio Makamoto and David Manners. So they looked into the future in their book called Digital Nomad where they laid out the idea that technology will allow people to work from anywhere. And then Fast forward to 2020 when Covid hits remote work explodes and suddenly everyone's booking one way tickets to exotic locations.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And to live this so called dream, you still need a way to make money. So what, you need a decent wi fi signal too? I guess.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Digital nomads are often developers, designers, writers, or running some form of content based businesses, which sometimes is just talking and posting about being a digital nomad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, sure, but you and I travel the world and meet remotely. But we don't. I mean, I'm not a nomad, you're not a nomad, so what's the difference?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, totally. Because you and I have fixed home bases.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

And we're not making money filming tiktoks from infinity pools in Bangkok.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That sounds awesome, but.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that does sound awesome. But the digital nomad title, it. It can be self proclaimed, so the term does get a bit blurry. You know, remote workers, expats, telecommuters, freelancers. It can all overlap and the Venn diagram will get a bit messy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, there's a big difference between a digital nomad and an expat though, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Absolutely. For one, you have to live in another country, usually gain citizenship to be an expat. Expats don't usually work remotely without homes. The similarity is that they both leave their home country to work abroad. But digital nomads work entirely remotely and are often freelancers. So this enables them to travel from country to country while working.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So remote workers aren't digital nomads, but digital nomads are remote workers. Okay, so this is like a new caste system for people with MacBooks and personal branding and weird job titles? I guess. So what about just getting a remote job and traveling whenever you want? Is that what's the difference?

[Jessica Wynn]

That's not nomadic, you know, that's just a lucky duck with no debt, I hope.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, hopefully no debt indeed. Yeah. So who's actually doing the nomad thing? Can we search job sites for digital nomad wanted? I'm guessing not. Or is it. Is it under hip job titles like vibe architect?

[Jessica Wynn]

Vibe architect? What is that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. No one knows actually.

[Jessica Wynn]

You. You won't find it at job search. So digital nomads, they do all kinds of jobs. Programmers, marketers, anything that lets you email someone from a hammock and call it productivity.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so there seems to be a lot of people trying this out. Or is that actually an illusion caused by my social media feed?

[Jessica Wynn]

There's actually a lot more than I expected. I was surprised to find that as of 2023, over 17 million Americans call themselves digital nomads.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that's up 130% just from 2019. Which tells us people realize during the pandemic that they hate going to the office. And so the wi fi in places like Tulum must be under some serious stress at this point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Is this a trend among 20 somethings? Trying to figure it all out. This sounds like something I would do in my 20s for sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I assume that too. But also surprising it's not. The average age for a Digital Nomad is 39, and about 70% of them do this full time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so it's a midlife crisis thing more than a 20s thing. Got it. So middle aged LinkedIn warriors are just out there flexing those we work memberships?

[Jessica Wynn]

Pretty much. I mean, the demographics break down to around 75% of digital nomads are straight, white and overwhelmingly American. With nearly half of the world's digital nomads being from the U.S. the rest are mostly from the U.K. russia, Canada and Germany, with a sprinkling from around the rest of the globe. Men comprise like 56% of digital nomads, women 43% and non binary 1%.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sort of shocked those stats even exist, but yeah, that tracks. I could never fall into this. I've got a wife, I've got kids. I just don't think it's possible.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, of American digital nomads polled in 2020, 23, about 25% of them travel with their kids and partner.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. About 15% of them travel with pets.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, come on.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, right? Nothing screams location independence like trying to manage a toddler in a schnauzer in a foreign Airbnb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Man, I can't even wrap my head around constantly traveling with my little ones. And also to have a dog with you, it's just. Oh, no, my God. It's not homeschooling if there's no home, I guess. I don't know. Nomadic schooling? That sounds like a major pain in the butt with a pet. I can't believe it.

[Jessica Wynn]

That statistic I'm unclear of. So from what I read, how the kids are educated, I'm not quite sure, but of digital nomads themselves, over 90% have some form of higher education, and more than half have a bachelor's. Okay, so this isn't exactly a dropout crowd, right? It's more of an MBA with a yoga mat. Will travel.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that tracks. With people I know that are digital nomads. They're almost all like Deloitte grads, you know, I was a consultant and then I realized my whole life was ticking away. And now I'm 40 and oh my God, I gotta get outta L. A. Like my producer Gabriel, for example. A top of the line laptop seems necessary. You gotta have what, a USB powered fan and some Beats by Dre as well.

[Jessica Wynn]

That probably would Help. The interviews and podcasts I've listened to sound like it takes a tech obsessed individual to flourish in the lifestyle. So you kind of have to be right if your entire livelihood depends on staying connected in multiple time zones while trying to get a VPN to load slack or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's the thing. Our boss is okay with this. I guess. I technically don't know where you are right now and it doesn't matter as long as you kind of meet the requirements.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, sure. I mean, I guess it could be anywhere. I've had to record with you away from home and my experience, it never goes well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, correct.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, Yeah, I prefer a reliable setup. And what's interesting is about half of all digital nomads, they see themselves as free agents. So they're not loyal employees. They're their own boss, which makes sense, right? Loyalty doesn't pair well with a rolling suitcase and a burner phone and a SIM card that may or may not connect that day over in Laos or wherever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, so this is more popular than I thought, man. It's not a fringe thing for lost deadheads who've been looking for a way to wander since Jerry died. Right? This is actual professionals with degrees with disposable income. Although I'm still imagining their LinkedIn bios are full of phrases like location agnostic and cloud based solutions strategist and whatnot. I guess my question is, just because all these people can be digital nomads, does it mean they actually should? Is there any data on whether this is working?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's not for everyone. A lot of folks wonder why anyone would willingly want to live out of a backpack, staring at screens at all hours and explaining to their family and friends that yes, I have a job, so should they be Living this way is debatable, I guess. But the pitch is that digital nomads value the freedom to work from anywhere and choose their lifestyle. The most common claims of why they do it are pursuit of travel, exploration. And the big one seems to be stretch your income by working from affordable places.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So some kind of location arbitrage where you make a US salary, but you got like a Vietnam slash Thailand cost of living.

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly. You're basically outsourcing your own life. You're the boss and you're the cheap labor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the promise isn't actually passive income. You take portable skills, work wherever, make enough to keep this up. It's kind of exhausting to think about this. This lifestyle sounds super fun. Don't get me wrong. I Would have loved to do this in my 20s. It wasn't possible back then from a technical standpoint. My real problem here is that the line between remote worker, like some of the folks working with us on this show and sort of wanderlust grifter, the people I've desperately tried to avoid hiring to work on the show, that line seems really thin sometimes.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And the dream it's made out to be is to ditch the soul sucking nine to five and work from the beach, achieving total freedom. But in reality, it seems like most digital nomads are glued to their laptops at expensive co working spaces. They're juggling clients in different time zones and praying the WI fi doesn't drop mid zoom. Or worse, the WI fi is so sketchy, all your data gets compromised.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hadn't thought about that. I hadn't even considered the cybersecurity element of all this. Logging in from a different public WI fi network with crap security that's never been updated every day is a great way to get hacked. And having all of your important client data potentially on a laptop that you shove into a backpack while you take a dip in the ocean, also not that much better.

[Jessica Wynn]

No, no, no. And digital nomads are at increased risk of online threats like phishing and malware, their constant reliance on technology while traveling. And think about working across time zones. You're either up at 5am or scheduling your emails to go out at midnight, hoping you've accounted for daylight savings correctly. Time zone management is a real skill when you're a digital nomad. So you need to obtain the freedom to have a client in New York whose emails you can answer timely from a hostile bunk in Vietnam.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Oh my God, I didn't even think about this. But one of the major issues that I would have is if you are in a remote area, like maybe, okay, you're not in Bangkok or something, you're in an island in Thailand. If your stuff breaks, gets wet, gets stolen, your business is at a screeching halt. I couldn't afford to do that. I would almost have to have like a backup laptop somewhere else that's safer than where I currently am.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right, it's like the equivalent of your business burning down or something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, like if I'm in Bangkok, I run to the Apple store and restore everything from the cloud and then, you know, pray that other people have stuff on our drive. But if somebody jacks my laptop and I'm four hours hours away from a, or eight hours away from an Apple Store, I'm in trouble. I'm in actual trouble. That's.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's a nightmare.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When I travel, the whole time zone thing is almost always a pain. I do wonder where these people keep their stuff because it would stretch not just their computers, but their stuff stuff. It would stress me out not to have my own towels, let alone my desk and all. I've got all these little comforts of the modern world that I guess I didn't need in my twenties with that I can't live without now. Maybe this is how I know I'm getting old and cranky. I don't know.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I know. Like without being able to stock my decoy snack drawer to fool my boyfriend, you know, I'd be miserable. But they don't have stuff, right? That's the point. Minimalism. So you have to own little and travel light with one, carry on two pairs of pants. And keep listening to that TED talk that reminds you to prioritize experiences over possessions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All of which is fine, but I couldn't do it. But let's be clear, a lot of this minimalist wisdom is people couch surfing because they don't have a home to keep their stuff. Right? There's an old George Carlin bit about the need for a place to keep all of our stuff. That's the whole meaning of life, isn't it? Trying to find a place for your stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's all your house is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your house is just a place for your stuff. If you didn't have so much goddamn stuff, you wouldn't need a house. You could just walk around all the time. What do you bring now? You just bring the things you know you're gonna need. Money, keys, comb, wallet, lighter, hanky, pens, cigarettes, contraceptives, Vaseline, whips, chains, whistles, dildos, and a book.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, yeah. I doubt Carlin would be into nomadism and he'd make jokes about keeping their stuff just in the cloud or something, you know? Yes, but nomadism is not cheap and storage is a part of that. So on the surface there's this weird myth that digital nomads are saving tons of money by living in quote unquote affordable countries. But from what I've researched, the math doesn't really. Math, right? Like you're constantly paying for short term housing like hotels, hostels, Airbnbs, there's rental cars, travel costs, co working fees, eating out all the time, storage costs for many, and those $8 cappuccinos you have to buy to access Wi Fi in a cafe that probably doesn't want you There all day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So this doesn't sound like financial freedom for a lot of these folks. Just financial reshuffling. You're still working and you're working hard, just with more sand and less stability. And it can't be easy. It doesn't seem like you can just pick up and start doing this. How do you become a digital nomad? What's the process like here?

[Jessica Wynn]

You start by developing remote work skills.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

That can be tech stuff, writing, design, whatever you can do from a laptop.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Then you have to be savvy enough to build a network, connect with other digital nomads, build professional relationships, plan and research destinations, obsess over WI fi, speed tests, and hunt for the right visas.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's right. It must be challenging to manage visas. I hadn't really thought of that. As an American, we kind of. This is always an afterthought, Right, right. Is that the bureaucratic nightmare that it sounds?

[Jessica Wynn]

Is it absolutely is. Imagine playing a never ending game of where in the world can I legally exist without getting deported?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

The rules change every month and with every country. And visas can cost you around $300 a pop.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This has got to be especially hard for people from non western countries or places where you don't have a great passport. Look, it's probably super easy. You're Japanese, you're German, you're Swiss, you're American, whatever. You got to go work in a place like Vietnam. You just got to show up. But if you're from Russia or Belarus or something like that, your options are probably a lot more limited and the hassle factor just has to go through the roof.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the reality is that passport power plays a crucial role in accessibility. So strong passports from places like you mentioned, like Japan or Germany, they definitely allow for greater freedom of movement and fewer bureaucratic hurdles. You're just booking flights and chasing WI fi compared to, say, those passports from Belarus or Nepal, which is more like a part time job in international paperwork and embassy websites.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Aren't there digital nomad visas, though? I swear I've heard of this. Or is that just a tourist visa with extra headaches?

[Jessica Wynn]

Digital nomad visas do exist in some places. There are visa documents that give someone the legal right to be in a country while working remotely from a job that's based out of that country.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's like a tourist visa kind of, but it allows you to earn an income quietly. You know, different visas mean different things. In 2015, for example, I worked in Ireland and I had a work visa, but every six weeks or so I had to leave the country for at least 24 hours and then return to reset the clock. It was a drag, but like a fun one, because fortunately Ireland's surrounded by cheap flights and ferries, and I didn't mind spending a weekend in England or Malta or the Isle of Man or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But no kidding.

[Jessica Wynn]

The big difference is I wasn't taking my work with me and I was on the Irish payroll, so I wouldn't qualify as a digital nomad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right everybody, before your beachfront Wi Fi craps out for the third time, check out the amazing deals from the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and amd. You know that feeling when everything's going according to plan and then one small stupid mistake blows it all up? That's exactly what happens in the latest episode of the Cybersecurity Tapes called Box Office Bomb, a billion dollar film franchise. We're talking Jack smash 10 is days from its premiere when the studio gets hit with ransomware, skip the VPN and boom. The final cut of the movie is in hacker hands. Now, most of us don't run movie studios, but we all live in a digital world where these kind of slip ups can destroy reputations, careers, and even companies. That's what makes this story so compelling. It's a real world reminder of how fragile our digital security is. And here's the the hack didn't come from some shady character in a dark basement. It came from someone on the inside. Hence a malicious insider. If you want to hear how it all unfolds and how something like this could happen to anyone, plus what you can actually do to avoid the same mistakes, listen to the cybersecurity tapes presented by Dell and amd. Episode eight is out now, wherever you get your podcasts, this episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Summer winding down is always bittersweet, but lately we've been hosting more regular gatherings at our place. Which means our furniture needs to step up to help us entertain. And Wayfair has become our go to spot for getting ready to host friends and family. They literally have everything you need. Furniture, linens, decor, some seriously cool stuff to level up your entertaining game. We recently found these awesome side tables that swivel open to reveal a hidden cooler full of drinks. Pretty cool kind of a conversation starter. They're sleek, practical, honestly, just kind of fun to use. And best of all, Wayfair made it super easy. Their delivery was lightning fast, hassle free didn't cost extra even for big stuff like furniture. Whether you're refreshing your living room, getting the kitchen ready for regular family dinners, or just organizing your space, Wayfair makes it effortless. They have endless inspiration and options to fit every style and budget. Head over to Wayfair and get your home ready to host and entertain this season. Get organized, refreshed, and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Check out our newsletter. It is a great companion to the show. A lot of you love replying to this. When we write it, it's a two minute read. It's very practical. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. All right, back to Skeptical Sunday. I do travel for work, but it's mostly kind of willingly. You know, I'm going, I'm planning this. I almost always just say I'm going to a convention or I'm a tourist on vacation or something. I try not to make things too complicated. I know this is like illegal in some places, but yes. I mean, yeah, no one listens to this. I figure nobody is really gonna know or even care, frankly, if I record a podcast from China or Taiwan. But getting a work visa for China or Taiwan for a company not located in those countries? First of all, I'm not even sure that exists. I might be breaking a couple of laws somehow, technically, but I just, I don't see how me renting a studio for a podcast or to record some better help ad spots for the show, I don't see how that's much different from somebody else taking a zoom call and doing 50 emails from a hotel lobby while their kids are at the pool. How much are they going to bother to enforce this crap, is my question.

[Jessica Wynn]

I guess very technically it's questionable, but morally you're fine. So you're not like running a black market dental clinic, right? You're just editing audio near a volcano?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think international law has caught up to podcasting yet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if it does, half the hotel lobbies in the world are going to be full of felons or criminals anyway. Because I know I'm not the only one who's like, yeah, I'm in Taiwan and my, my family's here and I'm on a tourist visa. But I'm cranking out a couple of emails and taking a zoom call and making sure this is done because I don't want to go home to a giant pile of work.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, come on, how can you monitor that? Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What are you going to do? Send the police? Like you said you weren't going to work while you were here For a company that's not in the country, who cares? Do many countries offer digital nomad visas? Because I know this is so new, but it's like, is this a thing that one place has and it never gets issued?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, more than I expected, that's for sure. As of 2025, over 50 countries offer some kind of remote work visa.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

And it's places you might not expect, like Eston, the Bahamas, Colombia, Croatia, the list goes on. Some countries are kind of fun about it, but others bury you in paperwork, fingerprint scans, and tax confusion.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a good point. It must be frustrating to have to adjust to the new rules every time you cross a border. People probably just don't bother.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, and it varies wildly. Like the Bahamas offers a thing called Beats by Dre. Nothing to do with headphones. It's their extended access travel stay policy. And It'll cost you $525 US for a one year remote work permit. But you must provide solid documents and proof you won't just become a beach bum.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So a beach bum with a laptop is okay, right? Thinking about it though, this does make sense. They don't want to have to spend their own resources taking care of you or deporting you or whatever if your remote work turns out to be a flailing onlyfans or no real work at all. It sounds like the costs can add up if you go to a lot of different places and you run things actually by the book, which I assume kind of nobody's really doing.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, there's not much incentive to go buy the book. So if you're a company with employees, the Dominican Republic will give you what they call a discount. $800 a year for the first employee and then the bargain of $500 for each additional one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Groupon for bureaucrats.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, why would you want to do that? So, you know, other countries go all in though, welcoming digital nomads with open arms. So there's some places like Albania, Belize, Greece, among others, they have pretty easy digital nomad visas that aren't as expensive. Other countries like Dubai and Ecuador have very remote friendly visas, but all of them seem to involve tons of paperwork and a reasonable fear of immigration offices.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my God. Can you get one of these visas to be a digital nomad in the United States? Does that exist here?

[Jessica Wynn]

Not a chance. The US Offers zero Digital nomad specific visas. So if you're a foreigner working remotely for a non US company, you have no legal path to live here and work from your laptop. Okay, we probably shouldn't step too far into this topic given the current climate. But I do think it's ironic considering America kind of invented the laptop and quote, unquote, the grind in the first place. But it's not just the US that doesn't welcome this kind of visitor. There's a lot of countries that don't have systems in place. So digital nomads put together a patchwork of tourist visas, residence loopholes, and just spend a lot of time filling out paperwork.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is it easier within the eu or does every country have its own visa rules?

[Jessica Wynn]

If you're an EU citizen, you've got it made. You have freedom of movement throughout all of the European Union, so you can bounce around. But for non EU citizens, it's a logistical circus. On top of managing finances, you have to research each country's visa timelines, proof of income requirements, health insurance coverage, and just constantly watching the clock tick down on your legal stay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So in between the advertised sunrise yoga and fancy cafes, you're just buried in freaking paperwork. What a drag.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it seems like unnecessary stress. Yeah, just with changing scenery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly.

[Jessica Wynn]

I've read so many articles and blogs, I've listened to a bunch of podcasts, and over and over digital nomads say the same thing. They're stressed about money, worried about visas, and eventually most of them burn out. Which leads a lot of desperate digital nomads to this dark underbelly of this lifestyle. The digital Nomad course industrial complex.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I've seen the Instagram ads that are selling learn to make six figures while traveling the world as a digital nomad. And it really just sounds like the multi level marketing of remote work. But every ad somehow involves a drone shot of somebody typing on a beach in linen pants. So I don't know, man, I'm kind of on the fence.

[Jessica Wynn]

Have you ever taken your laptop to the beach?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's the worst experience. It's the worst experience. I can't see the screen. And if you get a single grain of sand in your keyboard, like on the F key, it's just you hear it and you're like, that's going to. This is destroyed. Now I have to throw this in the garbage. Yeah, it's a nightmare.

[Jessica Wynn]

We already know not to believe what we see on social media, especially with people with their laptops on the beach. But these courses Prey on people who feel stuck in their lives, their jobs, their cities. And of course to you, me and most people listening, it's full of all the red flags of a classic scam. Yeah, especially if they're sharing their digital nomads secrets with you. For a price.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? For the low price of $99.99, I'll tell you how to make money online. And the secret is to send that same message to more vulnerable people. And boom, now you're a guru. You just need photos.

[Jessica Wynn]

But to be clear, this is just an unwanted symptom of digital nomadism. This has nothing to do with the people successfully living this way, which does exist, but unfortunately it's now associated with a whole ecosystem of scammers who live teaching others how to become digital nomads. So if you want to become a digital nomad and you're considering paying for a course, a nomad school, or a coaching session, please keep listening to this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know we are diving into the classic pyramid structure, but now with wi fi.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean you nailed it. You know, when you look at the courses full of content, it's pages of fluff with stuff you could just Google in five minutes. Yeah, get on Coursera for 20 bucks or this podcast for free. So a lot of those so called courses provide outdated, recycled AI generated information that's often just wrong.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If the SEO blog to passive income model was actually possible slash really easy, we would all be millionaires lounging on a lazy river in Costa Rica. It's just not. Not a thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, wouldn't that be nice? But instead, 95% of digital nomads are grinding it out in co working spaces for 70 plus hours a week in Thailand because it's cheap to be nomadic there. In my research I found the majority of people selling the courses aren't even digital nomads.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really.

[Jessica Wynn]

They might have traveled a bit, they couldn't make it work. And now their full time gig is selling these courses about their individual experience, making it seem like they were successful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right, so their actual business is teaching people how to teach people how to be a digital nomad. That is. That is so rich.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. So meta. Right? And it's. It's pretty bleak. I mean, yeah, only a handful of digital nomads make real money, so technically it is possible. But a lot depends on having a squad of affiliate students shilling the course and exchange for kickbacks. You know, that's why it's pyramid scheme territory.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I feel like this is a good time to remind ourselves that being A digital nomad is not the actual job. Right? That's a descriptor for the lifestyle. And you need a good job to make the lifestyle work. Right? I mean, any. Can anyone really teach you how to be a digital nomad? I mean, if I work remotely for Apple, I still have to be in the office at a certain time. I mean, I don't. I don't need skills for this, really.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right. I mean, I can teach you how to do it. It's simple.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay?

[Jessica Wynn]

Get a remote job, start 100% online business, buy a plane ticket, and then book an Airbnb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay?

[Jessica Wynn]

That's it. I saved you thousands in course fees. You're welcome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know? Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, the most important point here is that being a digital nomad literally means living life with no fixed residence, traveling the world, working remotely. But you have to have a job, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what are these courses actually teaching? I still don't get it. What's in the damn course?

[Jessica Wynn]

Nothing. Period. Look, I'm not against travel. I'm not against remote work, but this particular brand of snake oil, teaching people to be digital nomads, it's cruel and it targets people's despair, and it sells them a lifestyle that for most is financially unsustainable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

And emotionally exhausting. You know, it's like punk rock or a standup. It just can't be taught. You know, Larry David would back me up here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

People, like, if they want to be an actor or they. Or a comedian, and they. They take it so seriously, like they're a. There's no class.

[Jessica Wynn]

You can't. There's nothing to learn. You either you can do it or you can't, I think.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. I agree. Either you can do it or you can't do it. And as somebody who works my butt off running my own business, building a brand, it kind of infuriates me. Instead of these innocent people marketing their actual talents or products, they basically bought a dream, and then their business dies. And the courses don't help. They just drain people of the very resources they need to survive. I know a lot of people who teach business and online business, and they don't sell the lifestyle of, like, you can work remotely, you can work. They're like, I just know how to create an online business. I don't know, you know, how much it's going to take you a lot of time. You're going to have a lot of things you have to do. And some of my friends do run their businesses remotely most of the time, but they're not teaching other people how to do the same thing. It's kind of weird to sell a lifestyle instead of just business skills, but I get that that's the marketing. I just think it's really shady.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's so shady. And it's takes away from the fact that these people have training and education and qualifications to work this way. It's just a choice of where they're doing it. And the thing is, spending your money on Instagram ads for a legitimate business instead of giving your money to an ad scam would be a better investment to keep your company afloat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's not just Instagram ads, though. It's all the posts that promote the fantasy, right? It's the drone shots.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I know, it's. It's. You look at posts of ocean views and smoothies and gratitude quotes. But digital nomads selling courses to other rubes Forget to mention the moldy Airbnb shared with six strangers in a co living villa. Or the $10 bank fees every time you buy something and crying in a wework bathroom. Social media does this kind of in general, right? It's not just for digital nomads.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It just fools us. That's right. But that's the game that really pisses me off. Selling hope is easier than building something real. We can't advertise cigarettes like we used to. We shouldn't be able to advertise pyramid schemes and empty promises and all that other bs.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean completely. And that's so much of our feeds. And. And it's not just bad advice. People are sinking 25 bucks into. This is selling a fantasy economy built on the idea that you don't need to work hard. These courses are only selling pretty beach pics and testimonials. But behind the scenes, people who fall for it, they're broke, they're burned out, they're moving back in with their parents. And that being said, I want to say again, like, there are successful digital nomads, but none of them are selling scammy courses.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, anyone selling the digital nomad lifestyle as a cure for your current situation in life, they're not offering you a solution. They're selling you a repackaged lie in an Insta filter. Our video guy, Ian, he's gonna be mad if he hears this. Probably, maybe. Maybe medium mad. He's a digital nomad. He's from Canada. He's always all over the place, but he is the only digital nomad that I've hired who gets the job done. He communicates like, hey, my Internet might be a little bit bad next week. Can you get me all the resources I need so I can still work offline? Blah, blah, blah. He's great, but he's not in the coarse bullshit ecosystem. And I actually, as a policy, will not hire DNS. Let's use the abbreviation here because the hit rate of getting an Ian like my video guy who gets it done is like 1 in 51 in 100. Ain't nobody got time for that. I don't need to figure out if you can do your actual job while traveling. I gotta figure out if you're good enough at your actual job while you are at home with stable Internet. I don't need the litany of excuses about why you couldn't even show up in the first place.

[Jessica Wynn]

I think one in a hundred is probably being generous. You know, a lot of people who rush into the lifestyle after investing in courses, find themselves and. And this was a word that was new to me, a beg packer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Love it.

[Jessica Wynn]

So there's people who don't have the skills or the job required to make a living and they end up holding a cardboard sign in Bali asking strangers to fund their journey back home.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If making money were so easy, we'd all be drinking mojitos at exclusive resorts, wouldn't we? Instead, I'm in the home that I own, recording a podcast with no pants on, as is tradition for a Thursday.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, I'm sorry. So, so grateful to know that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, you got it.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, I get to record this in my own home with my books, my records, my three plants and my memories without having to explain what I do for work to new people every 48 hours.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh yeah, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, let's be real. Constantly moving. Sounds exciting in theory, especially for younger folks. But in practice, I travel a bit, and when I travel for an extended period of time, it would suck to always have to be saying goodbye. I cannot imagine not even having a home to get back to, or never putting down roots or constantly reintroducing yourself every month or every couple of weeks, whatever your job, your whole deal, again and again and again, and you just don't even see these people again. Right? Everything's temporary. That would just drive me nuts.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, I know. And the funny thing I found researching the lifestyle is that digital nomads love to talk about community. Like they hype up co working spaces and slack groups and beach meetups. There's even a full blown digital nomad cruise. No, but honestly, it feels like they're just overcompensating for how disconnected they actually are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. We're all getting norovirus together on this boat. Isn't it, Isn't it awesome? Life changing. Yeah. It's got to be deeply isolating. You're always new. Everybody and everything is temporary. Everybody you meet is in that circle. It's also temporary. So they have the same outlook as you. I might never see you again, whatever. And even the place you're in probably not going to be your home for much longer. So it's not even just people. It's like your favorite cafe. You moved. Okay, well, now you need a new one. And it's. It just. That would just get old real fast. Doing it for a couple months, fine. Doing it for any longer than that, it would just start to suck so hard.

[Jessica Wynn]

Totally. I mean, and loneliness is a big negative of the nomadic lifestyle, so. And let's not forget that working remotely in paradise, it doesn't erase the pressure of bills of deadlines and social fomo. You're not ever on vacation. You're just working from a place where everyone else is on vacation. So you're still working hard just without this tangible community, without that one barista who knows your drink as soon as you walk in and asks how your kids are doing. You know, many digital nomads express that it can be lonely as hell. I actually have a cousin, her and her husband, instead of buying a house, they spent all that money on this really crazy tricked out rv. But they call themselves digital nomads. But they're always going to the same campsites and in the winter they, they're stable in one like RV community in Florida. So that's one of those blurry things. Like, are they digital nomads? Like, they still kind of have home bases and they have a place for all their stuff. Right. So they don't really experience loneliness because they sort of have a system of where they're driving to all the communities in different places. Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It does bum me out to think that people think this is the solution to their problems or the key to happiness. It's more kind of wherever you go, there you are. I spent a lot of years being like in Israel. I'm going to be happier when I move to Germany. I'm going to be happier when I move to Ukraine. I'm going to be happier. Like, I did that so much. Mexico, Serbia. Right. It was always like Panama. This is the place where I'm really going to open up and shine. And I grew in each little place. But it wasn't sort of like I kind of just brought my own issues there and then was like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

You're still you, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Damn it. Still trying to work on that one.

[Jessica Wynn]

If you're unhappy with your life, your job, your city, whatever, becoming a digital nomad might hit reset, but it's not going to guarantee you peace or fulfillment. You're still you. You're just jet lagged. And there are real documented mental health costs like isolation, financial stress, emotional stress. I mean, it can take a toll fast.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Speaking of dubious financial decisions, now's a great time to hear from the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. Guess they're back in the game folks. Finding great candidates to hire can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. You end up with a mountain of resumes, but somehow hardly any match the skills or experience are actually looking for. Who wants to waste valuable time sorting through irrelevant applications? Not with ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Jordan ZipRecruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. Right after you post your job, ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology kicks in and immediately starts showing you qualified candidates. Even better, ZipRecruiter lets you reach out directly to top talent with their pre written invite to apply message. It makes connecting with your favorite candidates incredibly easy and helps encourage them to apply right away. Ditch the other hiring sites and let ZipRecruiter find what you're looking for. The Needle in the haystack four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address. Ziprecruiter.com Jordan Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Jordan ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire I've got Homes.com is a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home it's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here in our grass hut on the beach here in Indonesia. To learn more and get links to all the ways to support the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. For me, always having to find a quiet place to work would make me freaking miserable. Having no home base would not feel like freedom to me. Further, it seems really hard to generate reliable income that way. It's already hard enough to run a business. Now I have to find a new place to do it every few weeks. Or like, oh, the Internet's down today for the city. Or there's no power. It's like, that's not fun at a certain point.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that would drive me nuts too. I mean, there are a small percentage of digital nomads who've made the lifestyle work for me a decade or maybe a little bit more. But I don't think it's as sustainable as the fantasy wants us to believe. So there are programs like AdSense that do legitimately bring in money, but you need to have a massive audience to make anything meaningful. And then you have to maintain that audience, which would just be endless algorithm anxiety that can take well over 40 hours a week. And the average income for those working really hard is just $2,500 a month. That's not going far. After travel, housing, visas, and work spaces, all those costs are covered.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a good point. And the success with those programs like AdSense, it depends on timing. And you got to be lucky being at the right place in the right time, the right niche. So how are so many people doing this? Are they all just kind of like trust fund kids or they just got super lucky? Whatever.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's one of the first things I researched. And surprisingly, no. There's an insignificant significant percentage of trust funders. So digital nomads are hardworking. They're crafty individuals who understand the advantage of spending strong currencies like the US Dollar, the pound or the euro in economies where that's going to go a long way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All this has to have some effect on local economies, right? I mean, you can't just all go live in the same small town.

[Jessica Wynn]

Sure, yeah. When digital nomads roll into town and overpay for smoothies and clothes and snatch up rentals, it warps the economy for the people who actually live there. Living costs rise, infrastructure is strained, and locals can be displaced because they're priced out of their own neighborhoods.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's not ideal. So both the locals and the nomads are under financial stress at that point.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, and for the nomads themselves, you know, freelance jobs fall through, clients disappear, currency exchange fees eat into your income. You know, you have to juggle inconsistent payments across five platforms, all the time zones, multiple, multiple languages.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And we haven't even considered taxes yet. I know this has got to be just outrageously complicated. How the hell do you handle that?

[Jessica Wynn]

It's unpleasant if you follow the law. I mean, yeah, digital nomads usually owe taxes to wherever they are legally a resident. For US citizens at least you file taxes no matter what, even if you haven't stepped foot in this country all year. But the rest of it is like a labyrinth to me. If you keep money in a foreign bank account, there's, there's just different rules everywhere. And back in the U.S. each state has different laws for foreign earnings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I thought I had to track everything. This sounds like that movie Brazil. Just awful paperwork. Couldn't stand the paperwork.

[Jessica Wynn]

Listen, this whole system of yours could be on fire. And I couldn't even turn on a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kitchen tap without filling out a 27B stroke.

[Jessica Wynn]

Six bloody paperwork. Yeah, like most De Niro films, that movie holds up so many forms and there, there's also a 183 day rule in most countries which is if you spend more than half the year in one country, you owe them taxes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right?

[Jessica Wynn]

And there's tax treaties that can play naughty or nice depending on the relationship between countries.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For as wistful and chill as the ads make it out to be, this requires a serious business person. Another cost is hiring a great accountant who knows international tax law, especially in the places you're going to be or have been in the past fiscal year.

[Jessica Wynn]

But even with an accountant, all the paperwork and rules, that seems like another full time job on top of your actual job. So working from a poolside cafe in the Mediterranean is most certainly amazing. But you better have good tax advisors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. This financial freedom lifestyle sounding more and more Like a complicated and unstable full time job with. With none of the benefits. I'm low key, panicking, thinking about all the Google sheets you even need to have to be compliant here.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's impressive that some people make it work for years, but they are not the majority. Yeah, and here's the twist. Many nomads do settle down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

Usually when they find affordable property or what seems to be the biggest reason they fall in love.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's actually kind of sweet. What do you call that? Like, hobo love. How did you two meet? Well, he was a homeless vagabond sleeping in a hammock outside the hostel down the street. And I sold him coconut every day so he didn't die of dehydration.

[Jessica Wynn]

Aw, what a me. Cute. Yeah, these wanderers meet a local or a non nomad on vacation, and all of a sudden they rethink their wandering ways. So they have to decide between their lifestyle and their heart.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not a bad game plan either. Honestly. Getting married can certainly smooth out the visa situation. And then you can explore another place after your divorce.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh. I mean, then you really see the world when you're dividing assets in different countries, like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, the statistics are vague, like there's no solid data. But anecdotally, this love and relocation thing, it seems to happen most in Spain and Turkey.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, Romance hotspots. So if you're looking for love, check out those parts of the world. For some reason, they're like digital hunter gatherers who find a beach with coconuts, decent wi fi, and, I don't know, a guy who owns a scooter, and they're like, all right, fine, this beach will do. I'm staying. We could reboot a classic with a modern twist and just call it Eat Love, Put down a deposit.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think I'd watch that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Eat Love. Pray your relationship doesn't implode.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right, right. It does seem like a large portion of those who live this lifestyle are doing it to an end. They're searching for something. There's groups that travel together, picking up and leaving members along the way. And then they eventually put roots down in one of the digital nomads, Big five hubs, which are Spain, Portugal, Mexico, Thailand, and Indonesia.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, wow, that's funny. My producer Gabriel just moved to Portugal. So are these big five spots supportive of this kind of immigration? Or is it like we tolerate it because you put money in, but everybody else hates it?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I don't think so, but it depends on what the specific city's tourist Economy is like. There's this guy, Nick Hilden. He was an early adopter of the digital nomad lifestyle, and he wrote an article in 2024 about where he was writing from at the time, which was Puerto Escondido, Mexico. The piece was published everywhere from Al Jazeera to the LA Times. And then that city exploded, like, overflowing with remote workers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so booming the local economy. Great. Except homeboy Dunn ruined his own city for himself. And everyone else, though. Puerto Notso Escondido. Am I right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, God. I mean, it took less than a year. And locals are displaced because rents there have skyrocketed. Yeah, the power grid's wheezing. The plumbing is like, please, no more smoothies. Locals are getting priced out of their own neighborhoods because the infrastructure just isn't built for a crazy influx of people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, this is like an Airbnb apocalypse type situation.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. And there's already rapid signs of gentrification and just general resentment from the locals there. And it's not just Puerto Escondido. It's happening in cities all over the world. Medellin, Colombia, Ubit, Bali, Mexico City, and on and on. So when enough nomads land in one place, it stops being charming and it just becomes disruptive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's a big planet, folks. You don't all need to be in the same three neighborhoods.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right, Right. But some companies are investing in digital nomad hubs. So there's real estate companies like Outsight and Roam that have built out infrastructure already in Bali and Bulgaria to lure in this new class of nomadic professionals. And then several countries like Croatia and Portugal, they're investing in development projects and visa programs to attract nomads.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's so strange to invest in transients. Digital nomads should not be thinking, where can I go? But instead, do I have any business setting up camp there at all?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean. Exactly. But digital nomads show up with dollars and laptops. Yeah, but then they hang around too long and they pass this. This, like, weird torch that turns whole neighborhoods into overpriced Instagram backdrops. Like, think the average wage in Mexico is about $45 a day. But digital nomads come and they. They're dropping five times that on beach view Airbnbs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And they probably don't speak the language half the time, which I guess is good because no one can tell them how much they're being ripped off.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right. And the language barrier means they most likely don't follow local customs and may treat Places like amusement parks, you know, like one local wrote, puerto Escondido is not Disneyland. Bali is not Burning Man. You know, to be fair, not all digital nomads come with ignorance, but unfortunately that's not the majority in many of these places. So there's growing awareness about sustainable tourism and groups have popped up like SOS Puerto, which is fighting to preserve their community.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what should aspiring nomads try to do better? Because it sounds like they're intent is a little bit harmless, but their side effect is they end up ruining these, these nice cities and communities.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, I think the most logical is go off the beaten path, you know, stop crowding the same handful of hotspots. You're just being different like everyone else. Yeah, I mean, don't shop at chains when you're abroad, you know, instead opt for the bodega in town so you're contributing to the local economy. And then basic things like reducing your waste, flying when only absolutely necessary, learn the language just a little and just generally don't be an asshole.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay?

[Jessica Wynn]

Locals are not resort staff. They live there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a really good point. I do see videos all the time online, like on Reddit, where it's like a Thai person being like, there's a montage of tourists beating up police or getting punched, or like beating up people or throwing food around and they're like, this is not a resort for you. This is our country. You're a guest here. And it's very common to see videos like this. I suppose digital nomad etiquette is something that should be taught for free. There's a global economic shift as life in the west makes it harder to find housing, harder to find job security, harder to survive. The cost of living is going through the roof. People are naturally going to opt out. And I feel like we should just try to do that as gently as possible.

[Jessica Wynn]

But don't take all that entitlement with you. So your video goes viral, you know, I mean, researchers call it liquid life. So you're renting over buying, flexibility over stability, which all sounds modern and sleek until cities are completely reinvented for this wandering class. Brands are already catching on, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What do you mean brands are catching on?

[Jessica Wynn]

There's developers in New York City that are building common goods rooms in apartment buildings. So they're rooms like, like think vending machines, but they hold vacuums, printers, lamps. In the UK there's a library of things, startup that's feeding off this liquid life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You mean I can rent a vacuum, rent a printer, Rent a lamp and then just put it back later when I move to, like, Chile or whatever.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that's what they're for. So you don't own stuff anymore, you're just renting your lifestyle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's fascinating. It's a little dystopian somehow as an 80s kid. Cities built not on belonging, but on borrowing things temporarily. The whole thing is temporary.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And Japan Airlines now lets travelers rent clothes at their destination. Whoa. So no packing, no checked bag. It lowers the plane's weight and turns packing a suitcase into a service job.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And there's tons of furnished apartment rentals I see. Catering to remote workers. They're nomad ready by design. I've seen that a bunch, actually.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, and there's other things popping up too. Estonia also has an E residency program, so no matter where you legally live, your business can live there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it sounds like it could get sketchy, but I'm guessing that they're trying to stay ahead of the game.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, this is all so new, right? So there. People are figuring it out, Countries are figuring it out. But healthcare is another big issue for the lifestyle. 78 countries have universal healthcare. Go them. That's a bonus for American nomads. But. But depending where you are, that healthcare, the quality of it might not be what you're used to. But digital nomads, they need global coverage. So now there's new insurance plans popping up to fill in those gaps.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's helpful, though. As an American, I really just need healthcare where I don't lose my house if I get sick or hit by a car. I imagine someday people will be covered all over the globe. Except Americans, maybe. But what a future this is turning out to be. My goodness.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And then there's banks like Wise and Monzo, and they're leading the way with borderless banking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I've used that.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. There's no foreign transaction fees and it's just online everything.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I've gotten paid by a regular bank. And they were like, yeah, it's a $2,000 conversion and transfer and this, that, the other thing, fee. And then I used Wyze and they were like, yeah, it's 25 bucks for the same amount of money. I was like, okay, okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Because they don't have brick and mortar.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. We use WISE to pay people who work for the show. Because it was like, it's either going to cost you hundreds of dollars every time and weird fees and exchange things and this and that and the other thing. Or wise, which is like, all right, it's. It's just a completely different system. You're right. No brick and mortar. But also they're like, we're going to beat banks in this particular niche. And they do. What a sign of the changing times. If it gets easier to make a steady income, every aspect of life, I guess that's why they call it liquid life or whatever, becomes more fluid.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, for now, it's definitely the alternative, right? It's not always affordable, it's not always sustainable. This lifestyle is completely romanticized, but people are working on improving all that. I mean, I couldn't do it, but I do get it. You know, if you're going to struggle anyway, a lot of people would rather do it in the sun.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess the fixed life is romanticized too. I mean, a lot of people are just scraping by. If only it were as simple as those Instagram ads, eh?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, right. I mean, if you want to be a digital nomad, great, but you need a real job with reliable income and you need to have a solid plan. Like, you can't just show up somewhere. I mean, don't fall for the affiliate core scams or the fantasy that all your problems will dissolve when you delete your permanent address. So maybe start small, like redecorate. Get a new throw rug, man. Yeah, maybe clean your disgusting apartment and see if that shakes things up a bit without torching your whole life. So freedom might not be somewhere else. It might just be redefining your home.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. So, yeah, buy a recliner, buy a freaking salt lamp, not a one way ticket to Cambodia. And don't fall for the sunny beach bullshit. Well, I have never felt less desire to travel in my life. Jessica, thank you for keeping us grounded. Welcome and thanks everyone for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to [e-mail] advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show [e-mail] deals. I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica Wynn on her substacks between the lines and where shadows linger. And we'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlauskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we Rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What happens when a billion dollar platform is built on exploitation and no one's held accountable? On episode 1143 of the Jordan Harbinger Show, Layla Micklewait reveals how she took on pornhub, exposing how the site ignored abuse, evaded responsibility and profited from real victims.

[C]

Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. How in the world was this happening on pornhub? Thinking about that, the idea that we're all assuming that this is legal, vetted, consensual material because that was what they presented to the world and they spent millions of dollars on their PR campaigns. Victims were reaching out and begging them to take these videos down. This is destroying their life. Course of trafficking is force, fraud, coercion. If you're under the age of 18 and you're used in a commercial sex act, so if you're making money on that sex act that was induced by force or fraud or coercion, it's automatically trafficking. It was shocking. Why are you still doing business with a company that distributes rape videos to the world? Pornhub is Jeffrey Epstein Thompson times a thousand. They have the ability to stop it, to age, verify, to make sure that somebody had to show an id, to show their face, to consent, verify before they could upload and they chose not to. And I still feel that justice fully served in this case. Looks like pornhub does get shut down, so they have had to take down 91% of the entire website. When we're fighting trafficking, we have to increase risk, we have to eliminate profitability. But we also want to see policy put in place to make sure this doesn't happen again. The thing is that I think people have to hear it and you actually have the power to stop it. Now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The most chilling part isn't just what she uncovered, it's the lengths they went to to try and silence her. Don't miss episode 1143 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.