Transcript

Dr. Carolyn Fleck (0:00)

Searching for a romantic summer getaway escape with Rich Girl Summer, the new Audible original from Lily Chiu, the exquisitely talented Philippa Hsu. Returning to narrate her fifth Lily Chu title. This time Philippa is joined by her real life husband Steven pasquale. Set in Toronto's wealthy cottage country, a.k.a. the Hamptons of Canada, Rich Girl Summer follows the story of Valerie, a down on her luck event planner posing as a socialite's long lost daughter while piecing together the secrets surrounding a mysterious family and falling deeper and deeper in love with the impossibly hard to read and infuriatingly handsome family assistant, Nico. Caught between pretending to belong and unexpectedly finding where she truly fits in, Valerie learns her summer is about to get far more complicated than she ever planned. She's in over her head and head over heels. Listen to Rich Girl Summer now on audible. Go to audible.com richgirlsomer Foreign.

Jordan Harbinger (0:58)

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional astronaut, hacker, real life pirate or special operator. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our Episode Starter Packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiations, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. I never thought anyone would try to break down the science of validation, but it turns out this isn't just some therapist trick. It it's a skill that can make you more influential, improve your relationships, lower conflict, even change people's behavior for the better. Today, Dr. Carolyn Fleck joins us to explain how validation actually works from a tactical level. From building rapport in our personal lives or in the office to getting through to teenagers, defusing conflict, even how interrogators use this set of skills when questioning terrorists. We'll explore why invalidating someone can shut down their recall and problem solving abilities. We'll uncover how to develop your own validation skills and use them in practice and the mistakes most of us make when we try. And yes, we'll clear up the difference between empathy and sympathy. And why. Validation has nothing to do with chasing likes on Instagram and social media. So if you've ever wanted to connect more deeply, resolve conflicts faster, and be the person that others open up to, stick around. This conversation's gonna change the way that you listen and react. This is a highly practical episode, full of techniques you'll be able to use right out of the box.

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show Episode 1198: Caroline Fleck | Harnessing Validation to Deepen Human Connection

Date: August 19, 2025
Guest: Dr. Caroline Fleck, psychologist and author

Episode Overview

In this highly practical, insight-rich episode, Dr. Caroline Fleck joins Jordan Harbinger to unpack the science and art of validation—a transformative communication skill that can improve relationships, build influence, lower conflict, and even foster behavior change. Drawing on her professional work as a therapist and psychological research, as well as personal stories, Dr. Fleck explains how validation works, why it matters, and how anyone can learn and use it. The discussion covers tactical strategies, mistakes to avoid, and the crucial differences between validation, praise, empathy, and sympathy.

Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. What Is Validation? (10:16)

Definition: Validation is communicating that you are mindful, you understand, and you empathize with some part of what someone’s telling you, thereby accepting it as valid.
Effect: “It is a signal of acceptance that culminates in the other person feeling seen.”
— Dr. Fleck [10:39]
Contrast with Praise: Praise is judgmental (“I like the way you look/performed”). Validation is about accepting someone as they are, independently of performance or appearance.
— [13:06]

2. The Psychological and Social Power of Validation (12:32, 15:08, 16:50)

Receiving validation increases pain tolerance (studied scientifically), enhances resilience, and motivates people to try harder, both physically and emotionally.
“People were willing to endure more pain, literally, if they had been validated.”
— Dr. Fleck [16:16]
Validation also features in high-stakes situations like medical care and even interrogations of suspected terrorists, where it’s used to build rapport and elicit reliable information without coercion.
— [18:31]

3. Why Invalidating Hurts: Cognitive Impact (19:56, 20:17)

Invalidating responses (dismissing, judging) shut down people’s recall, problem-solving, and reasoning abilities.
“[Validation] cools the sympathetic nervous system so higher cognitive functioning...comes back online.”
— Dr. Fleck [20:54]
Applies in heated conflicts, especially with couples and teens. Validation opens the door to actual conversation; invalidation keeps both parties locked in their corners.

4. Empathy vs. Sympathy vs. Validation (28:04)

Empathy: Feeling with someone.
Sympathy: Feeling for someone.
Validation: Combines emotional understanding (“I know how that feels”) and rational recognition (“It makes sense that you feel that way. I see the logic in this.”).
“Validation has this quality of understanding as well...emotional and rational.”
— Dr. Fleck [28:06]

5. Boundaries & Self-Validation (29:05, 80:16)

Practical warning: Don’t attempt to validate everything or lose all boundaries—know your emotional limits.
Self-validation uses the same skills directed inward, and most people are surprisingly bad at it.
“I didn’t realize how bad I was at validating myself until I mastered validating other people.”
— Dr. Fleck [80:16]

6. Misconceptions: Seeking Validation Online = Validation? (12:32)

Chasing “likes” or praise on social media is a pursuit of praise, not true validation.
The more we rely on external approval, the less authentic connection and acceptance we feel.

The Validation Ladder: Tactical Breakdown

Dr. Fleck’s approach to teaching validation skills is structured and practical, comprising an “eight-rung ladder” that trains people progressively.

Structure of the Ladder

First 2 rungs: Signaling mindfulness (attention, presence)
Next 3: Conveying understanding (logic, rationale)
Final 3: Demonstrating empathy (emotional resonance)
Each skill can be learned and applied independently or woven together, depending on context.

Mindfulness Rungs

Attending ([42:32])
- Nonverbal presence: Nodding, leaning in, gestures; “throwing someone a bone” to show you’re listening [43:13].
- Mental game: Try to reconstruct the other person’s point in your head, making it as clear as possible.
Copying ([45:39])
- Subtle mirroring of body language and repeating adjectives/short phrases (not parroting or mocking).
- “We are biologically designed to mimic other people...it was nature’s way of building in this super effective way of connecting.”
  — Dr. Fleck [46:14]

Understanding Rungs

Contextualize ([52:36])
- Place someone’s behavior in the context or environment where it made sense—even if it's ineffective now (e.g., fighting as self-protection in a dangerous neighborhood).
Equalize ([59:27])
- Make it clear anyone would feel this way: “Anyone in your shoes would do the same.”
- “I’d get a second opinion too. You were right to bring them in. I would have done the same.”
  — Dr. Fleck [59:54]
Propose ([61:12])
- Advanced skill: Float what you think the other person might be thinking or feeling, based on what they’ve told you.
- “Were you silent, or were you silenced?”
  — Oprah (as example) [62:56]
- Best done as a question to reduce risk: “Maybe you’re feeling X?”

Empathy Rungs

Take Action ([65:00])
- Go beyond words. Show understanding/empathy through direct action (e.g., support, intervention, tangible help).
- Powerful but must be used judiciously to avoid codependency or undermining autonomy.
Emoting ([66:51])
- Show genuine emotion or reaction. If uncomfortable, at least state or allude to your feelings in your own language (“You’ve got to be kidding me” as an expression of shock/sadness) [68:25].
- “If that’s not your language, you can just imply it—‘Are you freaking kidding me?’...That expresses emotion.”
  — Dr. Fleck [67:18]
Disclosure ([69:36])
- Vulnerability: Disclose your own struggles or feelings to establish connection.
- “What disclosure does and why it’s such a powerful validation skill is it says, I see myself in you.”
  — Dr. Fleck [72:19]
- Caution: Disclosure should not become self-centered; always return focus to the other person.

Bonus: Shaping and Reinforcement ([74:15])

Shaping is about reinforcing positive moves toward desired behaviors, rather than punishing the negative. Used both in therapy and in dating scenarios.

Practical Applications & Memorable Techniques

Parenting & Teens: Validation for kids looks different as they get older—what feels supportive for a seven-year-old can feel condescending to a teenager [21:54].
Medical/Hospital Settings: The difference between a validating doctor and an invalidating one can affect your actual willingness to “fight” disease [16:50].
Conflict: In relationships, “pivoting” to validation is like “putting an adorable cat filter on your face” during a fight, dissolving tension [20:54].
Changing Minds: You cannot persuade, influence, or teach someone unless they feel seen and safe. Validation is the prerequisite for all change [37:26].

Notable Quotes & Moments

The Mask and Social Media:
“The more we rely on the mask, it actually blows up in our face because the likes matter less and less...It’s a less authentic version of ourselves.”
— Jordan Harbinger [14:02]
Physical Power of Validation:
“People were willing to endure more pain, literally, if they had been validated.”
— Dr. Fleck [16:16]
On High-Emotion Arguments:
“You cannot reason with somebody in that condition...Validation decreases sympathetic arousal so higher cognitive functioning...comes back online.”
— Dr. Fleck [20:54]
On Self-Validation:
“I have yet to meet anybody in my corporate work...yet to meet anybody who was impressively good at self-validation. It’s a missing skill set.”
— Dr. Fleck [81:02]
On Empathy and Persuasion:
“If you want them to listen to you and your data...you better find a way to help them feel seen and safe...Otherwise you stand no chance of affecting change.”
— Dr. Fleck [37:26]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[10:16] What is validation?
[12:32] Validation vs. praise, Instagram likes, and the “mask”
[15:08] Pain study: How validation affects endurance
[16:50] Real-life examples: medical context
[18:31] Validation in terrorist interrogations
[20:54] Validation, de-escalation, and cognitive function
[21:54] Validating teens vs. kids
[28:04] Empathy vs. sympathy vs. validation
[42:32] Validation ladder introduction
[43:13] Attending: signaling presence/nonverbals
[45:39] Copying: mirroring words and behaviors
[52:36] Contextualizing behavior
[59:27] Equalizing: normalizing someone’s reaction
[61:12] Proposing: mind reading as validation
[65:00] Take Action: validating with deeds, not just words
[66:51] Emoting: showing your real response
[69:36] Disclosure: sharing your vulnerability appropriately
[74:15] Shaping: reinforcing behavior change
[80:16] Practicing self-validation

Final Takeaways

Validation is Learnable: Anyone can build the skill, not just therapists.
Balance Is Key: True validation is distinct from praise or enabling; it’s about seeing the kernel of truth in thoughts, behaviors, and emotions, while still setting boundaries and encouraging change where necessary.
Use the Ladder: Practice one rung at a time, integrating it into your relationships for deeper connection.
Self-Validation Matters: As you get better at validating others, you’ll improve how you relate to yourself—a critical, rare, and overlooked skill.

For More

Dr. Fleck’s validation ladder cheat sheet is available via the episode show notes.
Her book offers a structured program for mastering each rung over 8 weeks, with practice exercises and real-life scenarios.
Visit jordanharbinger.com for all sponsor codes, show notes, and the free relationship-building course “Six Minute Networking.”

“If you want to connect more deeply, resolve conflicts faster, and be the person others open up to—validation is your secret weapon.”
— Jordan Harbinger [Intro]