The Jordan Harbinger Show: Science vs. Religion | Skeptical Sunday

Episode 1200 | Air Date: August 24, 2025
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-Host: Michael Roggio

Episode Overview

This Skeptical Sunday episode dives into the long-standing and often contentious relationship between science and religion, with a particular focus on how Christian fundamentalism has conflicted with scientific inquiry and progress—especially in the United States. Jordan and Michael trace the roots of this intellectual “cage match” from the days of ancient philosophers through the Inquisition, to Darwin, the Scopes “Monkey Trial,” and modern-day debates over intelligent design, climate change, and public health. Their conversation aims to dissect, provoke thought, and clarify misconceptions, all while keeping the discussion relevant, nuanced, and entertaining.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: What Are We Really Debating?

[02:38]

• Jordan and Michael clarify they’re not attacking all Christians—many have contributed to scientific progress. The focus is on branches that treat the Bible as literal truth and oppose scientific ideas like evolution and an ancient Earth.
• Michael Roggio: “We’re going to talk about people standing in the way of science and scientific progress... branches of Christianity that see the Bible as literally true and believe in a seven day creation and a 6,000 year old earth.”

2. Ancient Roots: Socrates and Science as Rebellion

[08:12]–[11:38]

• Socrates as the “gadfly” whose annoying questions and logical reasoning led to his execution for “corrupting the youth” and “not acknowledging the gods.”
• The birth of science in the Ionian Enlightenment—thinkers like Thales, Anaximander, and Heraclitus tried to explain the world with observation, not mythology.
• Jordan Harbinger: “Some say that [the Socratic method] was the beginning of the scientific method.”

3. Religion versus Reason Throughout History

[13:26]–[16:06]

• The Inquisition and the price of heresy: Giordano Bruno burned at the stake for suggesting an infinite universe; Galileo forced to recant heliocentrism and put under house arrest.
• Galileo wasn’t cleared by the Church until 1992.
• Jordan: “Contradict religious scripture and you are in big trouble.”

4. Religion Guiding AND Restricting Science

[16:06]

• Irony: The father of the Big Bang theory, Georges Lemaître, was a Catholic priest.
• Lemaître himself separated religious faith (“why”) from science (“how”), showing that the two don’t have to be irreconcilably opposed.

5. Darwin and the Evolution Backlash

[23:10]–[27:03]

• Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace presented the theory of evolution, igniting fierce opposition, much of it religious.
• They carefully avoided outright theological confrontation in their writing, omitting discussion of human origins from "On the Origin of Species."
• Michael: “He left completely out of the book, the Origin of the Human Species altogether. He just skipped it.”

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Original Sin and Knowledge
  Michael [04:51]: “The Bible basically starts with a warning against critical thinking. Don’t go asking too many questions or you’ll end up naked in a bush with a snake.”

• On the Scientific Legacy of Socrates
  Jordan [10:10]: “Turns out, not great for job security [to make powerful people feel dumb].”

• On Church Opposition to Scientific Revolution
  Michael [14:56]: “Bruno questioned the centrality of Earth in God’s master plan...the Church said, yeah, that’s not gonna fly. And promptly roasted him in 1600.”

• On Religion’s Real-World Impact
  Michael [06:53]: “Fundamentalist Christians have real power in this country. They dictate what children are taught...the entire reason stem cell research has been hampered comes from extreme conservative Christians.”

• On Courts Meddling in Science Education
  Michael [28:18]: “They set up the court limbed stage. People were selling monkey themed souvenirs out front of the courthouse.”

• On the Evolution of Creationism
  Michael [31:45]: “Creationism evolves again, this time into the even sexier brand of intelligent design.”

• On Intelligent Design’s Argument
  Michael [37:10]: “Irreducible complexity...If we can’t currently explain it, it must be a designer...That is what we call in the biz the God of the gaps argument.”

Crucial Historical Case Studies

The Scopes Monkey Trial

[27:03]–[29:39]

• John Scopes, Dayton, Tennessee, 1925: prosecuted for teaching evolution, violating the Butler Act (outlawed teaching anything but divine creation).
• Media circus and national ridicule; city vs. rural values.
• Law remained on the books until 1967.

Supreme Court and School Science

[29:39]–[31:11]

• 1968: Supreme Court declares bans on teaching evolution unconstitutional (Epperson v. Arkansas).
• Creationism morphs into "creation science," and later “intelligent design,” as a way to circumvent legal hurdles.

Intelligent Design in the Modern Classroom

[39:56]

• Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005): Parents sue to prevent teaching intelligent design in biology class.
• Michael: “Supreme Court ruled that intelligent design was a form of creationism and violated… the establishment clause of the first amendment.”

Modern Clashes: Science Denial in Public Life

Education & Policy

[06:53]–[09:16]; [41:35]–[42:21]

• Religious advocacy against stem cell research, sex ed, and evolution.
• Creation science and intelligent design as strategic rebrands to anchor religious ideas in law and curricula.

Climate Change & COVID-19

[44:02]

• Many religious communities, particularly in U.S. evangelical circles, reject scientific consensus on climate change and public health measures like vaccines.
• Michael: “Many Christian leaders still say God is in control, we don’t need to worry. Or…‘the Earth is ours to use. God gave it to us.’ That’s dominion theology.”

Social Issues: Conversion Therapy

[49:44]

• Continued existence of “pray the gay away” and other conversion therapies opposed by every major medical association, yet justified in some Christian circles.

Data and Research

[42:21]:

• 2018 study: Higher religiosity predicts lower science literacy and more negative attitudes toward science.
• Parental beliefs carry influence over children’s science attitudes decades later.

Reflections on Coexistence and Boundaries

Can Science and Religion Be Friends?

[53:16]–[54:37]

• Many religious scientists exist; the friction comes when faith is literal and inflexible.

• Science self-corrects; religion, especially fundamentalist forms, often resists change.

• Jordan: “You can have your own beliefs, but not your own facts.”

• Michael: “Truth shouldn’t fear investigation. God, if he does exist, shouldn’t need protection from telescopes or test tubes.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:28 – Ads, banter, show’s mission
• 02:33 – Introducing the episode (“Science vs. Religion”)
• 03:42–06:53 – What is Young Earth Creationism?
• 08:12–12:19 – Socrates & the birth of scientific inquiry
• 14:01 – Religious persecution of scientific ideas: Bruno, Galileo
• 16:06–17:14 – The Big Bang and a priest’s contribution
• 23:10–27:03 – The evolution debate: Darwin, Wallace, and how it shook society
• 27:03–31:11 – Scopes Trial and school science wars
• 31:45–41:04 – Creation science, intelligent design, Dover case
• 41:24–44:37 – Why faith and science clash on facts and policy
• 44:02–46:46 – COVID-19, climate change, and evangelical responses
• 46:56–49:00 – Dominion theology, stem cell debates
• 49:44–52:01 – Conversion therapy and the harm of faith-based pseudoscience
• 52:09–54:41 – Drawing the line between belief and public impact
• 54:41–end – Wrap-up, calls to action

Conclusion

The episode offers a lively, balanced, and historically grounded examination of the recurring battle lines between faith and science. Jordan and Michael stress the importance of scientific literacy and policy guided by evidence, not faith-based dogma, while acknowledging that religious belief and scientific inquiry can coexist—so long as dogma doesn’t dictate laws, education, and health policy. They finish with a call for critical thinking, and a reminder: “Truth shouldn’t fear investigation. God, if he does exist, shouldn’t need protection from telescopes or test tubes.”