1203: Veganism | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show, Ep. 1203: Veganism | Skeptical Sunday (Aug 31, 2025)

Main Theme:
Jordan Harbinger and co-host Jessica Wynn take a deep dive into veganism—its definitions, ethics, health implications, societal perceptions, and challenges—through a critical, humorous, and highly practical lens. The episode aims to bust myths, clarify confusion, and address strong opinions around veganism, both from inside and outside the movement.

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1. Setting the Stage: Veganism Unpacked

[01:18 - 03:29]

• Skeptical Sunday episodes focus on breaking down misunderstood topics. Today: veganism—as salvation to some, a “social cult” to others.
• Jessica Wynn, a decades-long vegan, shares her personal background: “I was the little kid, you know, feeding my steak to the dog and only eating the fries for my Happy Meal.” [03:29]
• Veganism is presented upfront as a lifestyle with varied motivations: ethics, health, and psychology.

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2. Definitions and Dietary Labels

[05:15 - 06:32]

• Veganism = “No animal products, period. No dairy, no eggs, no leather. If it moves, clucks, squirts milk, or it's tested on a bunny. I'm not buying it.” – Jessica [05:40]
• Differentiations: vegetarians, lacto/ovo-vegetarians, pescetarians. Jessica notes the nuance: “It's sort of a personal definition, but it can be really simple.” [05:31]
• Microplastics, seafood, and unavoidable contamination in modern life get a shoutout.

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3. Social Perceptions, Stigma, and Personal Stories

[07:24 - 10:47]

• Jordan critiques why veganism elicits such strong reactions: “It's not a terrorist cell. It doesn't really hurt me.”
• Jessica notes, “Vegans are just looked down on by some people. Literally. While I was writing this, I was listening to a Phillies game and the commentator had to get a vegan dig in.” [07:24]
• Anecdotes on being ostracized, family resistance, and the “Midwestern grandma” approach to sneaking in meat.

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4. Motivations for Veganism (Ethics and Personal Experience)

[10:05 - 14:48]

• For Jessica, “it's psychological. First, I can't separate the murder from my plate... As an adult, I don't think I could choke down a burger with a gun to my head. It's not politics. It's just who I am.” [10:10]
• The hypocrisy debate: Jordan admits, “If you're eating meat at some level, you kind of have to just accept that level of hypocrisy.” [11:30]
• Broader drivers: health, genetics, and especially ethics per Peter Singer’s philosophy: “You shouldn't ask if animals can reason. You should ask if they can suffer.” [13:47]

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5. Is Veganism Healthy? Myths, Nutrient Deficiencies & Processed Foods

[14:48 - 18:58]

• Not all vegan food is “healthy”: “Oreos, technically vegan. French fries are vegan. Most vodka is vegan. It doesn't mean any of that is good for you.” – Jessica [14:48]
• Importance of reading labels and self-education: “It's not just food. It's clothes, it's makeup, it's beauty products.” [18:00]
• Unexpected animal by-products (e.g., guanine from fish scales in cosmetics).

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6. Navigating Modern Veganism – Convenience vs. Health

[16:28 - 18:58]

• Veganism is much easier today but more processed: “Veganism got less healthy as it got popular because big food companies cornered the market and pushed processed junk.” – Jessica [17:21]
• “Now you can be a junk food vegan.” [17:36]

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7. The Dairy Debate

[25:19 - 28:54]

• “We’re not meant to consume animal milk... In fact, it's linked to higher risks of cancers and heart disease.” – Jessica [25:27]
• Jordan’s counter: “Milk builds strong bones so we can grow up and look like Olympians on the Wheaties box. That's what the commercials promise, right?” [27:04]
• Discussion on the power of dairy industry marketing and ethical considerations.
• “Keeping mammals in constant lactation for mozzarella sticks, I don't think there's a good reason.” – Jessica [28:15]

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8. Vegan Substitutes & Realistic Expectations

[29:44 - 32:25]

• Vegan ice cream and cheese fall short: “Store bought vegan ice cream, it's just kind of a sugary, expensive lie... Expecting substitutes, that's a myth.” – Jessica [29:52]
• Instead, “throw some peeled bananas and berries in the freezer ... that's a pretty good dessert.”
• The main point: Expecting perfect plant-based replacements is a recipe for disappointment.

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9. “How Do You Get Your Protein?” and Nutrient Challenges

[36:57 - 41:15 & 61:43 - 65:10]

• On B12: “To get the necessary amount of B12 from nature, you'd have to eat so much algae and seaweed it would be unpleasant... if you're Vegan, take a B12 supplement. No exceptions.” – Jessica [37:03]
• Iron, calcium, omega 3s, vitamin D: All manageable but require education, food variety, sometimes supplements.
• “Plant-based protein is everywhere… Elephants, horses, giraffes, rhinos, they're all giant jacked vegans.” – Jessica [62:52]
• Plant proteins require higher volume: “You just have to eat so much more.” [63:24]
• Jordan: “Beans and broccoli can make you swole, eh?” Jessica: “Yeah, I mean, eat enough of them. Yes.” [63:55]

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10. Kids, Pregnancy, and Veganism

[55:36 - 60:33]

• Can kids and pregnant people thrive vegan? “Absolutely, if you plan right. It's really hard, though... A vegan diet needs to be managed so carefully.” – Jessica [55:36]
• Animal diets for pets are non-negotiable; forcing veganism on carnivorous animals is unethical.
• Some research shows vegan kids might be a little shorter, but no critical deficiencies noted if the diet is managed.
• Jessica’s advice: “...if my hypothetical toddler wanted pizza and cake at a birthday party, I don't think that should be an issue.” [60:03]

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11. Mental Health, Orthorexia & Extreme Diets

[48:22 - 52:38]

• Veganism and depression: “Some studies link vegan diets to a higher rate of depression and anxiety, but the data... is all over the place.” – Jessica [48:40]
• Orthorexia (obsessive clean eating) can impact both vegans and meat-centric dieters: “Any extreme diet that triggers problems including veganism or meat only diets.” [50:50]
• Extreme restriction, not veganism itself, leads to health issues (see: Steve Jobs’ disastrous all-carrot diet).

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12. The Processed Food Trap & Food Industry Influence

[31:40 - 48:22]

• Ultra-processed vegan products are common but not healthy: “Those fake meats are kind of gross.” [47:09]
• “Corporations saw the profit loss from people ditching meat and they flooded shelves with ultra processed vegan junk.” – Jessica [31:40]
• The need for nutrition education and label literacy.

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13. Animal Ethics, Ag-Gag Laws, and Environmental Impact

[66:10 - 73:07]

• Factory farming, animal ethics, and the often-hidden cruelty of industrial agriculture.
• Ag-gag laws “make it illegal to film what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses,” defending industry secrecy. [67:06]
• “Factory farming is unethical no matter what your package says. Animals feel pain, they feel pleasure. They fear joy. And ethical vegans believe that they deserve moral consideration.” – Jessica [69:17]
• Environmental perspective: Plant farming uses less water, land, and causes less pollution than livestock. Jessica calls out the dairy industry for promoting “scare” campaigns against almonds.

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14. Lifestyle or Diet? Final Thoughts and Advice

[73:10 - End]

• Jessica: “Veganism is a lifestyle too... It's not about being perfect, it's about being conscious.”
• Even one “vegan” meal a day or reducing meat/convenience food makes a difference.
• “Stick to the perimeter of the grocery store. That's where the fresh fruits, vegetables and yes, fresh fish and meats are. And they are better than anything you're going to buy down an aisle.” – Jessica [73:54]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Nobody's trying to confiscate your brisket.” – Jessica [08:01]
• “Got Milk? Is what the villain says right before the laser Beam fires in your indie movie.” – Jordan [28:41]
• “Our bodies are amazing. And our cravings tell us what we are deficient in. So chocolate... is high in iron and magnesium. And those monthly chocolate cravings women get, that's just your body asking for what you're losing.” – Jessica [41:03]
• “I just want the guy that's eating Cheez-it crusted hot dog casserole who can't make it up a flight of steps without wheezing to stop lecturing vegans.” – Jessica [73:17]
• “It shouldn't be a big deal, but the way vegans probably see meat eaters is the way a meat eater sees someone gnawing on a chicken foot.” – Jordan [33:36]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Definitions and Misconceptions [05:15 - 06:32]
• Social Perception & Stigma [07:24 - 10:47]
• Ethical Motivation/Early Life [10:05 - 14:48]
• Veganism & Health Myths (B12, Iron, etc.) [36:57 - 41:15]
• Dairy Debate [25:19 - 28:54]
• Kids, Pregnancy, and the Vegan Diet [55:36 - 60:33]
• Ethics and Ag-Gag Laws [66:10 - 73:07]
• Wrap-up and Practical Advice [73:10 - end]

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Tone and Language

• The conversation deftly balances expertise, skepticism, humor, and personal anecdotes.
• Jordan uses self-deprecating humor and admits his own dietary hypocrisies.
• Jessica is pragmatic and non-dogmatic, emphasizing listening to one’s body, the importance of nutrition, and the realities of navigating veganism in a “meat-centric” world.

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Summary Takeaways

• Veganism is complex, personal, and not always “healthy by default.”
• Ethical considerations and the impacts on animals and environment are core for many, but motivations vary.
• It is easier than ever to be vegan—but the processed food trap is real.
• Deficiencies are avoidable but require education and planning, especially for kids and pregnancy.
• Veganism is less about “perfection” and more about conscious choice and balance.
• Criticism of veganism is often based in culture, marketing, or personal discomfort—rather than fact.
• Eating fewer animal products, even occasionally, helps—veganism isn’t all-or-nothing.

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For Those New to Veganism:
This episode provides a grounded, nuanced, and practical guide to the realities (and pitfalls) of going vegan—without dogma, with plenty of humor, and with an emphasis on critical thinking.

Transcript

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Jessica Wynn on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker and during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. On Sundays though, is Skeptical Sunday a rotating guest co host and I will break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions. Topics such as banned foods, GMOs, toothpaste, crystal healing, diet pills, bottled water, energy drinks. If you're new to the show or you're looking for a way to tell your friends about it. And of course, I always appreciate it when you do that. I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on Skeptical Sunday, we're going beyond the kale. That's right. We're discussing all things vegan. To some, it's salvation. To others, it's a social cult with nutritional gaps. But there's no. And you'll. You'll be able to guess which one. Which one I think it is. There's no denying it's a popular lifestyle. So what does it get right? What does it get wrong? And why would some people rather punch a vegan than give up cheese? We'll find out. With someone living the life, writer, researcher, decades long, vegan, Jessica Wynn. Welcome back, Jess.

[Jessica Wynn]

Hey, Jordan. I promise, no tofu lectures unless provoked.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Unless provoked. Fair enough. You know, I just realized there's a fair percentage of my team that's vegan, actually, because there's you, there's Gabe, and there's a couple of people I gotta check on. But, like, two out of six, one third of the team is vegan. That's like.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. What's it. What is it about you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

If we had. Or maybe there's seven or eight of us now, whatever, I've lost count. But if we had an office, I would be forced to offer vegan options, which is one, just one of many reasons why that's never gonna happen. Look, a tofu lecture sounds like something I'd have to hear in a yurt holding a meditation gong or a sound bowl. So let's start with your deal. You're not just plant curious, you're full vegan.

[Jessica Wynn]

I am. And I understand veganism is not for everyone. I'm not interested in converting people here today, nor do I believe every person is built for a vegan lifestyle. But I was the little kid, you know, feeding my steak to the dog and only eating the fries for my Happy Meal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oof.

[Jessica Wynn]

By the time I graduated high school, I was dishing out lentils with food not bombs like a good little vegan teenage punk rocker.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Food not. But what. When you were in high school, what were we bombing? I mean, I don't even anything in particular or just generally food not bombs was.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I guess it was. They only serve vegan food, and it was just to feed homeless communities in inner cities.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. So we weren't even bombing anything? You weren't like, stop the war. You were just like. If you were thinking about bombing something. How about. No, just. Here's some lentice.

[Jessica Wynn]

It was just a clever name, I guess. But yeah, got it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. I mean, to be fair, the branding works most of the time for the United States.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right? I know. Terrifying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Wow. So you just never liked meat. That must have been difficult because growing up, you know, if you don't like mushrooms, your mom's like, fine, I guess I won't make. But if you're vegan, your mom's like, well, I'm not playing that game. You're eating this.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. Especially back then in the 90s, vegan wasn't cute. It definitely wasn't convenient. You had to find a health food store, scoop nutritional yeast from a bin, and learn to cook everything from scratch.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Wynn]

I didn't grow up in a supportive household. My bacon and eggs family thought I joined a cult. So Thanksgiving in particular was this anxiety producing nightmare that left me hungry. Quietly crying over my plate of cranberry sauce.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, cranberry sauce. And vegan tears, though that is the saddest charcuterie board. To clarify this for me, what exactly is veganism? Because vegetarian eat mostly or all vegetables, but vegan, some people don't eat honey. It's like all confusing for us normies.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, it does get confusing, and I think it's a sort of a personal definition, but it can be really simple. Vegan is no animal products, period.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

No dairy, no eggs, no leather. If it moves, clucks, squirts milk, or it's tested on a bunny. I'm not buying it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Got it. And that's way different from vegetarians. They're just kind of like meat light. They'll eat animal products maybe. Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, there's so many labels and definitions. Right. There's lacto vegetarians that eat dairy with their plant based diet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, Lacto ovo I've heard of.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right. And they eat eggs. And then pescatarians eat animals from the sea, which unfortunately these days, anything from the sea, even salt, is complicated because of all the microplastics.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right, yeah. Nothing says healthy eating like a side of microplastics. Although that's in everything now. I don't know if you even being vegan, you can avoid that.

[Jessica Wynn]

We're probably breathing them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, not much we can do about that seasoning. I suppose. So.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. In fact, you are breathing it, because I remember I did an episode on micro nanoplastics a while ago. And one of the biggest offenders is the clothes. You know, when you wear, like joggers, which I wear every day, basically every time you take a Step. These microscopic plastic fibers are flaking off those things as they wear. And it's flying through.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah. I think they're coming out of our dryer. Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then. And then your dryer is just like a blower, right? Like a jet engine blasting microplastics and nanoplastics out great. Into the air. Anyway, that's not what this episode's about. So here's. Here's the thing. No, it's about something else that's depressing, guys, don't worry. Here's the thing. I eat meat, but I don't really understand why veganism freaks people out. It's not a terrorist cell. It doesn't really hurt me. Maybe once in my life I've run into a vegan that's like, hey, eating meat is really unethical and you shouldn't do it. But even that wasn't while I was eating a steak. So what's the. Who cares?

[Jessica Wynn]

I know vegans are just looked down on by some people. Literally. While I was writing this, I was listening to a Phillies game and the commentator had to get a vegan dig in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If I ever become a vegan, would you just punch me in the face as hard as you can? Man, Crock is hilarious, but, man, let people eat their salad in peace. Just don't evangelize to me through a quinoa bowl. By the way, some things that vegans eat, I can't stand. Quinoa is one of those things. But, like, oh, well, you don't eat steak. I don't eat quinoa. Yeah, don't even come at me with that. That's another skeptical Sunday superfood. It's a food, and just because you think it's super doesn't mean it has any special qualities. Continue.

[Jessica Wynn]

I'm not sure why any diet offends anyone else, but they do. And for all kinds of reasons. Like, calm down, John Kruk. Nobody's trying to confiscate your brisket. A farmer once aggressively poked me, saying, I and all vegans are the root of all the world's problems.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a. That's a deep. I would love to see how he supports that one. Right? Like, it's definitely not Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine or like Kim Jong Un and his nuclear program, or, you know, the United States napalming Vietnam. It's those vegans, man. It's those non meat eaters.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I went to grad school in Iowa. It was tough eating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I could see that. So I went on a vegan Food tour. This is way premature. I probably should have saved this for later in the show, but I don't care. I went on a vegan food tour in Peru that this guy had sort of tricked all of us in going on to. He was a yoga guy, and he's like, we're going on a food tour, and he was vegan. So I assumed it might be something like that. Anyway, we did a vegan food tour, so we would have, like, steak frites, except it would just be the frites. And we were like, this is a joke, right? And then it was a bunch of alcohol, and we were like, wait. And he's like, I'm sorry, guys. I humbly apologize. This is the worst food tour, vegan or otherwise, that I've ever been on my whole life. Because they just took all the meat dishes, which was everything in Peru, which is so meat heavy, and they just took the meat out. So it'd be like a plate of salad, of lettuce, of cabbage, and, like, fries. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I triple. I'm never becoming vegan again, especially if I live anywhere like this.

[Jessica Wynn]

But some meat eaters in that situation would get so emotional about that. Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, I definitely went through my militant vegan phase as, like, an angsty teenager, but I've grown up, I've chilled. So stop trying to sneak meat on my plate and call it a treat, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Calling meat a little treat, though, is exact. That's the exact energy of every Midwestern grandma ever. That's like, oh, she doesn't eat meat because she thinks it's bad for you. Well, you know what? I won't tell anyone. Here's a little filet. It's like, that's not.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, we'll sneak some stock into.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, let's. Let's get to the meat of it, shall we? Why go vegan in the first place? What's the impetus?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, for me and many vegans, it's psychological. First, I can't separate the murder from my plate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

As a kid, I even hated the zoo. You know, more than once, I cried while being forced to finish pork chops. And as an adult, I don't think I could choke down a burger with a gun to my head. It's not politics. It's just who I am. It's how I'm built. But there's also science and ethics behind it, and I want to stress that you have to listen to your body. The same diet isn't right your entire life, and the same Diet is not right for everyone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's weird hearing this because my daughter's a picky eater, and I don't force or threaten my kids to eat stuff. I just. They're little, so maybe when they're a teenager, I'll get more sick of them not eating things. But I don't know. It seems like when we were growing up, if you made food and your kid didn't eat it, parents were like, I'm gonna take this personally. And it's like, what are you doing? They don't. They don't want to eat it. Who? It's not like an indictment of you as a mother, right? It's a pork chop. Calm down. Dad will eat it tomorrow. It's really not a big deal. And when I talked to my vegan friends, like, Gabriel, you. I've got a friend Jackie, who's a vegan. We went hiking and stuff. I was like, I just kind of have to accept that I'm hypocritical. Right. I would never eat my dog. I would never eat anybody's dog, for that matter. Right. Except for the time I tried dog in North Korea. Don't judge me. I had to do it once, but, like, I would never do that. So why am I comfortable with somebody raising a cow, killing it, cutting up that cow into pieces, and then I me eating it? It's just, you have to. If you're eating meat at some level, you kind of have to just accept that level of hypocrisy. And when you do that, it's a little bit uncomfortable because, well, you're admitting that you are a hypocrite in certain ways. But, like, I don't know why. Then you get mad at vegans for, like, highlighting that part of you that's not their fault.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't know, because I think you' offending people's culture in a way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Who cares? Like, don't take it personally. I don't know. Am I thicker skinned than I thought? I didn't think that was me, but here we are. All right, so most people don't swear off steak because of zoo animal nightmares. So what's the bigger picture here? You are clearly sensitive, but maybe there's other reasons people are vegan.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, there's tons of reasons people are vegan. And for some, there's even a genetic component which I think is part of why I'm vegan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Because different bodies tolerate different diets. Some folks thrive on Paleo, others feel like they're digesting gravel. Some feel more energetic. Some get meat sweats and feel like they've just climbed 50 flights of stairs. And your diet can shift over time, too. So the food you eat affects how you feel and sometimes dramatically.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

So learning to listen to your body, that's the most important thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is a fair point.

[Jessica Wynn]

Not what other people think, you know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That'S a fair point. Point. As a meat eater, I was talking to Jen and we were like, oh, we haven't been to this place in a while. It's one of our favorite lunch spots. And she goes, every time I eat there, it's Indian food and it's really good. And she's like, every time I eat there, I feel really heavy and lethargic for the rest of the day. So we basically stopped going there, except on maybe a Friday where we're just like the afternoon. We're not doing anything because I can't even work. And then it's like your stomach kind of hurts because it's just super heavy, spicy, buttery, oily meat. And again, delicious, but just too much. So it would be really crazy for me to think I can't eat that. But, like, you should be able to eat meat and not have the exact same effect that I get from that restaurant. Right. It's not comfortable. And if you were doing that two or three meals a day, it would just be a lifestyle decrease. Like it would be. It would materially affect your well being throughout the day.

[Jessica Wynn]

Absolutely. Being vegan, it goes beyond health and genetics. There's also, like, you were talking about the dogs. There's also ethics as a huge driver towards veganism. Peter Singer, the Princeton professor of bioethics and animal rights, he's kind of a legend in the vegan community. He wrote a book called animal liberation in 1975, and he argued, you shouldn't ask if animals can reason. You should ask if they can suffer. Because if they can suffer, they matter full stop. And that's what matters to some people. Other people don't care.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well, this is where the hypocrisy thing I mentioned earlier comes in. Right? Because I do care. And yet I'm like, well, I don't want to see it or hear about it or know about it. Which is like, is that solving the problem? Like, that's as blatant as it gets. So you're kind of tugging on my humanity here, but feed my cynicism. If veganism is so magical, why do I hear about so many vegans basically fainting on their Yoga mats from nutrient deficiencies.

[Jessica Wynn]

Because people think vegan means healthy and it doesn't. Oreos, technically vegan french fries are vegan. Most vodka is vegan. It doesn't mean any of that is good for you. So if you skip your B12 and your iron, you're gonna crash no matter what your diet is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. So being vegan means you're morally superior and low in iron. Got it. Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, only if you're doing it wrong. Done right, a vegan diet is complete and healthy and sustainable. But it takes some homework.

[Jordan Harbinger]

David Smalley, who used to do Skeptical Sundays with me, early on in the show, we were. I can't remember what topic this was, but he was like, I stopped being vegan. And one of the reasons was he told me that when he was on tour. He's a touring comedian. When he was on tour, a lot of the only vegan food he could find, you know, outside of like Albuquerque or whatever or wherever he was, was Skittles. And he's like, so I, I ate a bag of Skittles for dinner and I'm just like, I don't know if you're doing the vegan thing right, dude. I'm not a pundit on this one, but, like, something tells me that that' not really how this goes.

[Jessica Wynn]

Ideally, one, I question if Skittles are actually vegan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

Two, I mean, even gas stations and 711 have fruit for sale. It might not look that appetizing, but it's there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, you could have had like three bananas and an apple, bro. So, okay, so homework is required, basically, is where I'm going with this. It's easier to be vegan now, I would imagine, in 2025 than it was in, say, 1995. You can even go to a fast food joint and there's probably something plant based or close to it.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's sort of easier. It's that. Is it better? Probably not. I see back in the day you didn't have impossible burgers and vegan cheese. That sweats in the package. I mean, I learned to cook really young. You know, I made stocks. I made my own tofu cheeses. I would make seitan from scratch. Being vegan meant cooking a lot. It actually led me to study health based cooking at the Natural Gourmet Institute for Health and Culinary Arts in New York City. And it was a program that taught cooking for all kinds of health conditions. You learned how to convert any recipe into a vegan dish. And it was meant to pump out a lot of private chefs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you went from punk squatter kitchens to celebrity chef school. That's kind of like an indie movie waiting to happen. Vegans 11.

[Jessica Wynn]

It turned out I was really good with those lentils. But ironically, veganism got less healthy as it got popular because big food companies cornered the market and pushed processed junk.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see.

[Jessica Wynn]

So the convenience definitely comes at a price. Now you can be a junk food vegan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

Which works against the health reasons of ditching meat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That didn't even occur to me. Right. Because back in the 90s or the 80s, if you were vegan, it's like, okay, go buy a bunch of farm fresh vegetables and stuff and start learning how to make it. And now it's like, nah, just go to Burger King and get the impossible Whopper. And it's like, it's not the same. Obviously.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And this points to a common problem today because a key ingredient to being vegan is reading labels. Our food labels are full of complicated language. So you've got to educate yourself. And it's not just food. It's clothes, it's makeup, it's beauty products. Oh, you can eat a vegan diet, but if you're eating those skittles on your leather couch and buying mascara made with fish flakes, you're kind of a walking contradiction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I forgot. It's not just about food.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So. But wait, fish flakes and mascara. Tell me about that.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's called guanine. It gives a shimmer to many cosmetics and nail polish, and it's derived from fish scales.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

There's a weird myth. I actually believed for a long time that it comes from bat droppings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's guano.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that's guano. I mean, either way, gross.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what, though? I will say I'm glad it's fish scales. And not like we put nanoplastics in here that are shiny to make it have a shimmer.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's like, yeah, that's true, that's true.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. So you're not just reading food labels. You're basically, you got to do like a CSI investigative Nightline, Dateline NBC every time you go to Sephora.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And enhance that shimmer. Zoom in on the fish guts. Like, this is such a pain in the ass, man.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, it is kind of. I don't do gel manicures because of the tallow. And there's animal byproducts I don't buy honey. Some vegans do. I mean, I don't consider myself militant. I'm open to what everybody's into. I used to live on St. Croix, and the connection the locals there have to their food, that actually led me to sort of step out of my vegan comfort zone, try things out of my character. I knew a beekeeper on the island, and when he pulled this hot honeycomb from one of his hives, I mean, I chewed it like gum. And, I mean, I still remember it as one of the greatest treats I've ever had. There was a Rasta on the island who. He was more fascinated with my veganism than I was with his Rasta lifestyle. And he introduced me to animals by name. He took me through the process of how they honor, kill and quarter their animals before feeding essentially the whole town. I tried to eat that flesh after it was cooked, and I did barf, but I tried. That's just not what's happening in most of our communities, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. The honey thing. Explain that to me, though, because we used to be beekeepers. Nerd alert. Jen especially. And you can take a bunch of that stuff away from the bees and it doesn't hurt them. Like, there's no material issue with taking a little bit of honeycomb or a little bit of honey from the beehive. You give them plenty. They don't even use it all. I mean, it's just like they make more than they need. It's really not an issue for me.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's not about the ethics of. I don't think bees are being harmed. I get that. That's the process for me. It's. And we've talked about this on other shows. It's that I think any honey you're buying, and I don't. I just don't trust it. I don't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah, you're right not to trust honey in.

[Jessica Wynn]

I think it's other things that is going on with that. It's not necessarily the animal rights for me with the honey. It's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see.

[Jessica Wynn]

I think that's just fructose.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're getting high fructose corn syrup in that little bear that you're. Kroger. Yeah, exactly.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And speaking of Kroger, I don't know if they're also thanking the animals by name before they throw the meat on the scale. That's. That's not a thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think so. But, hey, we all have to eat, right? And, you know, if I'm At a non vegan restaurant, I'm not interrogating the waiter about the ingredients in the free bread basket. You know, you can't be too uptight about it, especially in public. As long as you don't have allergies. You just make informed, quiet choices and you skip what's questionable. I will say one thing that does drive me nuts at animal based restaurants though is how many salad menus don't have a vegan option.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's kind of funny. I never thought about that. It's like you're so close to having a vegan option. Just don't put steak in it or blue cheese crumbles or something.

[Jessica Wynn]

Egg. It's crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's got to be frustrating. And it's also fair that nothing would scream lame dinner guests like somebody holding a black light over the dinner rolls. Look, I might not be giving up cheese anytime soon, but I will take a break here to talk about something way more digestible, the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Constant Contact. Running your own thing is volatile. AI shifts weekly. Costs are up. The only move is to keep growing. For me, the hardest part is marketing. Always. I can prep 15 hours for an interview, but marketing was in the past an Achilles heel. That's why I recommend Constant Contact. It's an award winning all in one platform that lets you spin up email social events, landing pages in just a few clicks. No tool juggling. Their AI content generator turns rough ideas into ready to send messages fast. And hundreds of templates keep everything on brand. You get automated sending, real time reporting and tools that actually drive sales. So you're not just broadcasting, you're growing. Pricing is transparent based on your contact list. Deliverability is 97% not in the spam dungeon and friendly phone support is included. That's why over half a million small businesses trust Constant Contact. If marketing feels endless, Constant Contact is the mini team on your desktop keeping you moving forward. Constant Contact helping the small stand tall. Get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact.com try constant contact free for 30 [e-mail] this episode is also sponsored by Brain FM Focus the struggle for you. Try Brain FM, an app built for anybody who wants to boost productivity with science backed music that syncs brain patterns so you can focus better, relax deeper, sleep easier. I open it, I hit deep work. Within a few minutes I'm dialed in, man. No lyric distractions, no playlist tinkering. When I'M in focused mode, answering emails, prepping for interviews. I rotate deep work, creative motivation. There's even turbo mode for ADHD support. We'll say at night flip to the relax and sleep stuff for a little power down. Brain FM is the only music company supported by a National Science foundation grant to improve people's focus. They recently published a study in the nature journal Communications Biology showing their patented music tech increases activity and attentional networks. Networks doubles neurosynchrony at focus related brainwave frequencies and improves attentional task performance in people with ADHD symptomology. You know what else does that? Methamphetamine. But Brain FM won't ruin your entire life. Probably. They're gonna love this ad. Their mission is simple. Help people around the world focus with an easy tool, especially folks who need it most. Unlock your brain's full potential. Free for 30 days by going to Brain FM. Jordan, that's Brain FMJordan for 30 days free. Don't forget about our newsletter. Wee bit Wiser. It is practical. It is a two minute read or less every Wednesday. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. It's a great companion to the show. A lot of you love to engage with it there. You can always hit reply and talk to us again. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. So what about dairy? Would you dabble in like farm fresh cheese? Or is it like, hey, the cow is suffering by being here?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, personally I'd rather eat meat than an animal's eggs. Or milk.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh no, I love milk. It's so good. And eggs for that matter.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it probably tastes really good. But we're not meant to consume animal milk. Not cow's milk, not even human milk. Beyond a certain point. I mean, ask a breastfeeding woman for a sip of her milk and you're.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A monster all the time. Oh, I mean, I've never done that.

[Jessica Wynn]

But somehow the cow we forced to lactate, that's totally fine. It's just super duper weird. And science agrees. So many studies show that there is no biological reason for drinking other species milk. In fact, it's linked to higher risks of cancers and heart disease.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just do it for the protein, man. But every time I chug a whole milk latte, do you just think I'm a monster? I mean, what if I milk the cow myself? Well, that might even be worse.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, yeah, I'll just let Apu from the Simpsons answer that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't eat any food that comes from an animal. Oh, then you must think I'm a monster. Yes, indeed, I do think that. Wow. I've been apude.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, honestly, look, I think you can eat whatever you want. But here's the thing. Every other mammal stops drinking milk after weaning, except humans. And then we go and treat lactose intolerance like a medical flaw when it's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Actually the biological norm, so people's digestive systems are actually fine. It's the latte that's weird.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's more than weird. It's potentially risky. Dairy is full of casin, and there's some studies that show it might promote tumor growth. If it does, that can lead to cancer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I know that. The first of all, tumors gross. A lot of the problem with this stuff, though, is I think it's like animal studies. But also, you can't really promote tumor growth in humans, ethically. So I don't know, it scares me when it's an animal study because it's like, well, this isn't in humans. And it's like, yeah, but if the pig got a bunch of tumors when being exposed to this and other things, that freaks me out. So, yeah, okay. Milk builds strong bones so we can grow up and look like Olympians on the Wheaties box. That's what the commercials promise, right? So I need that, I need the protein.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's the marketing. But I mean, look around, you know, I don't think that's really working. You know, in reality, we have to look at who's funding these studies, because if the studies funded by the dairy industry, it might not be showing us the link to prostate cancer. And just by the way, as an aside, my PSA here, fellas. Get your PSA levels checked.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Noted. I actually do this every time I get blood work because prostate cancer is no joke. A lot of men get it. So check your prostate specific antigen levels regularly. Nothing will ruin your latte more than prostate cancer, really.

[Jessica Wynn]

And then aside from all these iffy studies on dairy, ethically, dairy can be seen as cruel. Keeping mammals in constant lactation for mozzarella sticks, I don't think there's a good reason. And those Got Milk ads, they kind of come across to me as less of a question and more of a threat. But the dairy industry is powerful and it gets its udders in us at a really young age.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. It is a little chilling. It's kind of dystopian chilling. Like, Got milk? Is what the villain says right before the laser Beam fires in your indie movie. So veganism is less diet and more like a moral operating system?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, it can be just about food, but for many vegans, it's about the lifestyle. It's how you shop, dress, how you clean your house, how you moisturize and just basically show up in the world. It's not about being perfect, it's about being conscious. And yes, that might mean giving up ice cream.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Mm. Yeah. By the way, milk is linked to prostate cancer. It's just not causal. But it's like, well, if you're drinking a lot of this stuff and make sure you're checking your PSA levels. I just want to be clear about that. This is one of those topics where it's really hard to say this causes that. And the links can be there or they can be not there, or they could be there and then, hey, the dairy industry who funded this study wants to say that they're not there. I don't know, it's confusing. I'm not gonna give up my milk, but I'm definitely gonna check my PSA levels at least once, maybe twice per year or maybe more because I drank a ton of milk.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anyway, yeah. So you're the monster. A life without ice cream sounds cruel and unusual. Is there a substitute? Don't tell me I gotta eat like cashew ice cream.

[Jessica Wynn]

Ugh. I mean, I don't think there's any substitute out there that's worth my time. But that vegan Ben and Jerry's will help ice cream cravings for some people. But store bought vegan ice cream, it's just kind of a sugary, expensive lie. Yeah, I mean, my advice, throw some peeled bananas and berries in the freezer and then throw them in the blender with a little water or plant based milk and. And that's a pretty good dessert. But expecting substitutes, that's a myth. Same for those vegan cheeses, vegan chickens. It's all just kind of over processed disappointment. And sometimes you just have to give things up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For people who are upset about this, I want to say the paleo keto diet people have to do this too, right? The people who are doing the opposite of veganism that are only the carnivore diet people, it's like they can't have pizza, right? Because it has bread in it or whatever. So they're like, here's Paleo pizza and the crust is, I don't even know, whatever, animal skin, I have no clue. But it's like, stop trying to make something that substitutes Another thing that's bad for you, just have a different thing or give up that thing. And that's harsh, but fair. A lot of non vegans, they don't want to contend with giving up anything. We got the food pyramid drilled into our heads in kindergarten. A little everything, including a lot of animal protein. Do you all have your own food pyramid?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, of course there is, but I don't think anybody, vegan or not, needs a visual chart to eat well and stay healthy. It should be simple. Eat whole foods. Fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, some homemade trail mix if you're feeling crunchy. I mean, that's it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So basically, don't eat like a raccoon in a gas station. The benefits, the benefits of eating whole foods, even without veganism are pretty well documented.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the problem is corporations saw the profit loss from people ditching meat and they flooded the shelves with ultra processed vegan junk. They make eating well complicated so they can sell solutions. I mean, if I don't want to eat animals, why would I want to eat something shaped like a chicken wing?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's true. My daughter likes those dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets and it's like they, you know, they're disgusting, but she doesn't want the regular shaped ones. I don't know why that reminded me of the. All right, so not. Here's the problem. Not all of us can get a culinary PhD in lentils like you have.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right? I mean, that's totally fair. But nutrition should be a bigger part of our basic education in school.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I agree. Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

And I get it. Some people love that primal feeling of tearing flesh off bone. But I mean, even if you eat meat, you need to eat fruits, vegetables, and healthy fats. It's the balance that matters.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. You know, it's funny, when I met Jen, if this is our first date, second date, I don't know, third date, whatever. I ate a chicken wing and I put it down on the plate and she's like, you're not done with that, are you? And I was like, yeah, I ate the chicken off of it. And she's like, oh no. And she proceeds to like gnaw all these little like bits of meat off the thing. And like, she's, will you marry me? Now the cartilage is on there and she's like crunching it. And I was like, I don't know if I'm in love or totally disgusted. I have. We have to keep dating before I make a decision on that because I've never seen anything like this in my life.

[Jessica Wynn]

Wow, that's awesome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was just straight caveman. I was like, oh, my God. Thankfully, she didn't do this on one of our first dates, but later, I think we went to China. She ate a chicken foot. Like, literally a chicken foot.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I remember telling her. I was like, if you had done that within, I don't know, the first, like, four months of us dating, we would not be together right now.

[Jessica Wynn]

Do I want to kiss that? Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Like, as a guy who eats meat, it shouldn't be a big deal, but. But I'm trying to, I think, explain that the way vegans probably see meat eaters is the way a meat eater sees somebody gnawing on a chicken foot. And they're just like, oh, my God, I can't. No, I can't do that.

[Jessica Wynn]

Or those. When you put the live. I know it's popular in South Korea. You put those live. Are they like small octopus or something? That there's suction the inside of your mouth.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I had that. I had that in South Korea. Yeah, it's a live squid, I think, or octopus. And they cut it and it's moving around on the plate, and you put it in your mouth, you dip it in the sauce and you put in your mouth. And you have to swallow it quickly because it can get stuck in your throat. And it does kill people because it'll get stuck in your windpipe because it's.

[Jessica Wynn]

Fighting for its life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's really, really, really extra gross. I think I put a video of it up on my Instagram.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, really?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Where it's like moving in the chopsticks and you see me eat it and I'm like, never again wild. Yeah, it's. It's absolutely insane. And yeah, a certain amount of people die every single year eating that because they choke.

[Jessica Wynn]

And some people love it. But does loving something mean you should do it? You know?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, not necessarily.

[Jessica Wynn]

Plus, if all you eat is meat, you quickly become deficient in fiber, vitamins, and certain minerals. And there's studies that show these meat heavy diets are raising the risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, possibly cancers, and a variety of other health conditions. This doesn't happen with a balanced diet, vegan or not. I just can't stress how much the balance matters. And on the other side of that, an all carrot diet that'll turn your skin orange and cause all kinds of health problems. Ask Steve Jobs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wait, so Steve Jobs only ate carrots? Like billionaire Bugs Bunny for a while.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, he only ate carrots.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

He turned orange, literally ended up in the hospital. He believed in fruitarianism and long fasts would detox his body, but it caused him all kinds of problems. So extreme diets, vegan or otherwise, they're just terrible ideas.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That brings us to the stereotype though, that vegans are deficient in everything. Are they just slow rolling towards collapse or what?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, only if you're doing it wrong, like your buddy eating all those Skittles. You can't live on french fries and vegan mayo. A healthy vegan diet takes thought like any diet, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do see vegans get treated like it's some sort of death sentence and get made fun of by meatheads like me.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, and it's frustrating because non vegans have health problems too. Well, yeah, but vegans have to defend their diet to people who are eating McDonald's and frozen meatloaf and hormone laced meat injected with carbon monoxide to keep it looking red. I've been ridiculed for decades for eating from my garden, by family, by friends, and most of them are now obese, diabetic or dead. Society just isn't built for vegans. But any optimal diet starts with fresh produce and healthy fats. This maintains healthy gut flora, which is crucial to avoiding inflammatory disorders, which is the root of a lot of our health issues.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, okay, but there are problems with a vegan diet. Let's start with B12. Vitamin B12. That's a big one, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's huge. B12 is critical for blood and brain function. To get the necessary amount of B12 from nature, you'd have to eat so much algae and seaweed it would be unpleasant. Yeah, and low B12 is super problematic and can cause things like anemia. It's primarily found in animal products. So if you're Vegan, take a B12 supplement. No exceptions. Nutritional, yeast and fortified foods help. But bottom line, take that B12 pill.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if you don't eat meat, you kind of have to fake it with a pill. At least with that, it just kind of sounds like an argument that we are designed to eat meat.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's just like meat eaters need to take fiber. You know, everybody's supplementing something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true.

[Jessica Wynn]

And it's like saying, hey, we're not designed to fly. Don't get on that plane. You know, we've made it to the top of the food chain. And Louis CK points out hilariously that we don't fully appreciate that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know if we Fully appreciate the fact that we got out of the food chain. For every other living thing, life ends by being eaten. Every life ends like this. Animals just, they go, let's do this together, man. You chase the parents away, I'm gonna eat the kid and you circle back. That's why they do it like that. And I'm eating babies. This is bullshit. Louis CK Tearing it up as usual. Okay, but another red flag is the frequent vegan iron deficiency argument. Another supplement. To go vegan, do you have to take 50 pills a day?

[Jessica Wynn]

No, B12 is the only tricky one. I mean, that said iron is essential for the production of red blood cells. And plant based iron is absorbed differently than iron from animals. The trick is to pair plant iron with vitamin C. So broccoli plus lemon juice, that's a vegan's best friend. Add beans, nuts, figs, dark greens, and you're good with the iron and you have a little tasty meal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I have to supplement iron, which is weird because I eat a ton of meat. It just doesn't make any sense. But here we are. And the iron comes with vitamin C in the pill because of absorption or something along those lines, Right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's your genetics. Like, you need that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. The blood work was pretty obvious. And it was like, you're low on ferritin. And I was like, I thought men usually had too much iron. They're like, are you vegan? I was like, absolutely not. And they're like, all right, well, your body's using a ton of iron somehow. The fiber thing was surprising. I did a recommendation of the week a couple months ago to eat chia seed pudding because I was getting, I did the math. I log everything I eat. I was getting like, I don't know, 10 grams of fiber per day or something on a lot of days, which is not enough. It's like a third of what you need. And then I started eating chia seed pudding, which gives me like all my days fiber in one sitting.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, that's great.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was great. Yeah, Chia seeds are like where it's at. And my cholesterol went down like 30%.

[Jessica Wynn]

What?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

Now that's amazing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's not gonna happen to everybody. That was just. My body was probably like, oh, we're trying to get rid of this cholesterol, bad cholesterol, whatever, triglyceride stuff, but we can't because this idiot's not eating enough fiber. And then as soon as I hit that lever, it was like, oh, good, we can dump this stuff. So now my cholesterol is crazy good.

[Jessica Wynn]

Our bodies are amazing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bodies are amazing. But it just goes to show you that, like, oh, fiber. What's the big deal? I'm pooping. Fine. It's like, well, that's not all it is.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's more than that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's not all it is. Your body needs the soluble fiber, not just the insoluble fiber, et cetera, et cetera. It's true that women need more iron than men, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Usually. I don't know about you, but. But usually that's the case. And that's because of our periods. When we lose blood, we lose iron and magnesium, and our bodies are amazing. And our cravings tell us what we are deficient in. So chocolate. It's high in iron and magnesium. And those monthly chocolate cravings women get, that's just your body asking for what you're losing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's crazy.

[Jessica Wynn]

The uterus is like, hey, can I get some of those minerals over here?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I got some minerals for you. All right. Anyway, so my body is screaming for a Whopper, is actually saying, what? Give me processed beans.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, I mean, interpretation of those cravings is key. Yeah, so instead of a Whopper, have some collard greens with those beans. Because animal blood is so high in iron, there's a misconception that vegans don't get enough. But iron's not a problem for the vegan diet. If you're supplementing it the right way, if you're eating the right things, you'll get the same exact answer about zinc. But, I mean, you just have to eat the real stuff. Not vegan hot dogs, not vegan Doritos, not Skittles. Eat legumes, nuts, and seeds.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, what about calcium? That's milk's whole sales pitch.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's another Myth. Calcium and omega 3s are really easy to get from plants, but numerous studies show vegans just aren't getting enough calcium or vitamin D, which can lead to a higher risk of bone fractures. It doesn't mean vegans miss out on those things. They're just not eating enough of it. So calcium is needed to maintain our healthy bones and teeth. So vegans have to make sure they're eating tons of dark leafy greens. Broccoli, cabbage, bok choy, tofu, soy milk. These are all great sources. If you're only buying those frozen vegan chicken tenders, you're missing out. If you live in the UK Though, by law, they fortify the flour, so your toast is basically a vitamin which is kind of cool.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

But the one thing to be mindful of is spinach that actually blocks calcium absorption. So plan accordingly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Spinach is lying to us. Popeye, you fraud. Maybe the produce section should actually. This is not even a joke. Maybe the produce section should actually have nutrition labels, too. Or warning labels. Like, this spinach will ghost your calcium. Because, one, I had no idea. And two, if you think about it, natural stuff should also have a label showing what's in it.

[Jessica Wynn]

I totally agree.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe it does. I mean, I never go shopping, but I don't think so. I don't think the protozyle has any such thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

No, I don't think so. That would be a great idea because I think it would really help people, because spinach, it's kind of the Benedict Arnold of greens. You know, it looks healthy, but it's kind of betraying your bones.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Huh.

[Jessica Wynn]

And your body needs vitamin D to regulate calcium. So you have to eat those other greens and eat them in the sun to make sure that you're getting enough calcium and vitamin D. And eating a ton of mushrooms helps mushrooms.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that's the plan. So my skeleton depends on the pizza topping that nobody besides me actually wants?

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, you'd have to eat a ton of them to get enough vitamin D3, but they definitely help. The only other supplement I take aside from B12 is D3, so taking a vitamin D supplement, it's a healthy idea, vegan or not. Especially in winter months or if you're just not an outdoorsy person because so many of us just don't get enough sun.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's funny. When I was a kid, I used to house mushrooms. They were coated in ranch dressing. I don't know if that's exactly the same thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

It still counts, but yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great. Add that to the list of things I'm deficient in. Write in right underneath hope. Don't vegans need to eat fish to get omega 3s in their diet, too? I take a ton of Omega 3 and I eat a ton of fish. And I'm still. I was still deficient in a bunch of stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, omega 3 fatty acids are important for a heart healthy diet, and they're found in oily fish, but they're also found in nuts and seeds. There's evidence that shows plant sources of omega 3s don't reduce heart disease like those in oily fish. But if you're living a vegan lifestyle, chances are you don't smoke, you're probably more active, and that helps your heart health too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, but nuts and seeds aren't for everyone. A lot of allergies out there. Plus, you ever pay for pine nuts? I had to refinance my car.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, God, it's true. They're so expensive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[Jessica Wynn]

But if you're allergic, supplements or fortified foods work. You know, the real challenge isn't nutrition. It's navigating the marketing minefield of fake.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Health food claims that I can get behind. Even meat eaters have to admit that the amount of meat we now consume with an insane level of ease and convenience, vastly different from what even a generation ago. My parents never. They would be like, oh, Fridays, we get to eat meat or whatever in our house. Right? Because it was like the day that they splurged on dinner so nobody would miss it. My understanding is that ancient man especially, maybe they ate meat once a week if there was a big hunt. And then for a lot of humanity, they never got it right because they were poorer or they got it rarely. Imagine explaining a drive through double Baconator to a caveman. He'd be like, what? Why does the cheese glow?

[Jessica Wynn]

Right? I mean, I think that's a big misconception that our ancestors were just chomping on meat constantly. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Surviving off of the mammoth.

[Jessica Wynn]

They ate plenty of fruits and vegg, you know, and we need that. We need fiber, we need less saturated fat. These are all good ideas for everyone. And what's complicating all of this is the food industry because they figured out vegans have wallets too. And they jumped in with all that ultra processed fake meat stuff, which is, by the way, loaded with sodium. I avoid beyond impossible. I honestly. Sorry. Impossible. I know you're trying to do a great thing, but I feel like crap if I eat that stuff and other brands like it that are popping up because the sodium level of those products, they're just out of control. And many people agree with me, those fake meats are kind of gross. So I took a vegan cooking class.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And my new thing is Fakin. It's like real bacon, except for the look, the texture and the taste. Maybe the store bought kind, but I.

[Jessica Wynn]

Make my own, so it's not even real Fakin. It's faux faken Folkin.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Folkin.

[Konstantin Samoylov]

Disgusting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can't tell the difference.

[Jessica Wynn]

And guess which one's the real.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That one. That one Still. That one? Yeah. Those plant based meats, they're like salt licks. I gotta say, I always had a hunch those were gonna shake out really bad for us because it's Highly processed stuff. Right. I mean, that's just how it always ends up. And it's one of those like, hey, it's the Skittles are vegan of meat.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And it's like, what's better, the factory farming or sodium? I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. It's just kind of like, skip the meat thing. Don't try and like make something that sort of tastes like meat but isn' because you're going to have to process the crap out of something else. And real bacon is what makes bacon taste so good. So sorry, Vegans, fine.

[Jessica Wynn]

But again, it's all about that balance. We're sort of lucky that in the western world we get to base what we eat on taste and carbs. Personally, for me, and I know this is blasphemous, the smell of bacon is nauseating, but that's in my head because food doesn't just affect our physical health, it impacts our mental health.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because you're depressed, you can't have a steak or a cheeseburger.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think that's why. I mean, maybe it's from getting roasted for ordering salads with dressing on the side. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So is vegan depression real or is that a conspiracy from Big Meat, coincidentally, my nickname in high school?

[Jessica Wynn]

I still call you that. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit of both. You know, some studies link vegan diets to a higher rate of depression and anxiety, but the data, again, it's all over the place. There's funding bias, there's bad sample sizes. Plus they lump in salad eaters with those cap and crunch vegans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, Captain Crunch is so good. I just bought some recently.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's vegan, I think.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fan of who? Yeah. But also, who cares? Fantastic. It's. But now, now that I'm an adult, I have one handful and I'm like, okay, enough of this candy flavored bread. Like, how did I eat a whole bowl of that and then reload? That's my question.

[Jessica Wynn]

How are we giving that stuff for breakfast first?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also, how is that allow. Exactly. So if I go, by the way, peanut butter cap and crunch. Even better. Slash. More disgusting. So. So if I go vegan and I feel sad, it might be the Oreos, not the almond milk.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, depression knows no diet. I reviewed 18 studies comparing 150,000 meat eaters.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

To 9,000 meat abstainers. 45% showed worse mental health for the plant based crowd. A few were inconclusive and then about half showed better outcomes for the plant Based. There's just so many variables. It's hard to know how much diet alone plays a role. It's just, it's really messy science.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's really. That's gotta be really hard to study. I wonder if vegans over index for depression because they tend to be people who think about this stuff a lot more and maybe they're more sensitive or they're more empathetic, which is not, you know, that's going to be tough in today's world. Meanwhile, the guy shotgunning corn dogs, not exactly journaling about climate change most of the time.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it cuts both ways. But there are significantly less studies on the mental health of just meat eaters. You know, you're not going to see a headline saying steak causes sadness. Like that would be bad for business.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I guess if you're broke and living with a mean roommate, a filet is not going to fix your serotonin. So chicken or egg? Does food mess with the brain or does brain mess with food?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it seems both. Extreme eating can spiral into a condition called orthorexia, which is an eating disorder caused with this unhealthy obsession with clean eating. This would describe what we said about Steve Jobs extremes. But it's any extreme diet that triggers problems including veganism or meat only diets.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, we had a Feedback Friday question come in. I don't know if we took this one because it was kind of like a simple go see a therapist answer or maybe it's pending, whatever. But it was a guy. A woman wrote in and said that she found a bowl in the bathroom and she kept moving the bowl and like putting it in the sink. And then one time she's like, are you eating in the bathroom? To her boyfriend. And he got like really weird about it. And then she found the bowl again and again and again. And he was like hiding the bowl. And she's like, okay, what's the deal with the bowl? And he had to admit that he was weighing his poop.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh my God.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In a bowl, right? So he was like pooping in a bowl and then putting it in the toilet and then flushing it after weighing it. And it's like, why are you doing that? Just weigh yourself before and after you poop. And he's like, it's not as accurate. And that turned out to be our opinion was that this is like an orthorexia. Right. He's got like a crazy diet and he like is so caught up in the numbers that being off by half an ounce is not Acceptable to him. Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

Wow. That. But people go through that. I will say the Squatty Potty Company makes those toilet seats that weigh your poop for you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I did not know that. Well, now I have. Thanks a lot. Another thing I gotta go buy. Geez. Wow. Okay, so the extreme Joe Rogan diet of like elk, bacon and more elk, that would be considered an eating disorder, I guess.

[Jessica Wynn]

Definitely. Definitely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

A meat only diet is a one way trip to constipation, vitamin deficiencies, inflammation and organ stress. Studies from Harvard Health, Stanford, Oxford and many others show it can actually take 10 to 15 years off your life if you're going hard on red meat and you're skipping that fiber.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, like I said, man, fiber was kind of an unsexy hero for me when it came to cholesterol.

[Jessica Wynn]

But we should make fiber sexy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Jessica Wynn]

Gut, health, mood immunity, all kept happy by fiber. And you only get it from plants. The carnivore diet might look alpha, but skip plants and your colon's basically left on its own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some people skip meat, some people skip carbs. You don't skip these ads. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and Nvidia. These days, everything runs on tech. Your flights, your bags, your boarding pass, your sandwich order. So what happens when one piece of that invisible digital puzzle breaks in? Episode 9 of the Cybersecurity Tapes presented by Nvidia, we get a front row seat to a full scale airline meltdown. Not turbulence, not a snowstorm, A cyber attack. An AI system meant to streamline everything accidentally opens the door to chaos. Flights disappear, passengers vanish from the system and nobody can figure out what's real anymore. The threat didn't sneak through in some dramatic exploitation. It walked in disguised as a normal system update. Something called slop squatting. And trust me, you don't want to learn that term the hard way. If you want to understand how these systems we rely on every day can fail and how to stop them from failing, check out the cybersecurity tapes. Episode nine is live now. Listen before your next flight, or maybe after. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com. we've done your homework. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. All right, speaking of pains in my colon, let's talk about kids. You eliminated animal products Pretty young, but can you really raise a kid vegan without them turning into, like, a calcium deficient goblin?

[Jessica Wynn]

Absolutely, if you plan right. It's really hard, though. I just want to make that really clear. Vegan kids, teens, and pregnant women all have higher nutritional demands. So again, nailing that balance is crucial. A vegan diet needs to be managed so carefully.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. If my kids don't have their daily quota of string cheese, there's gonna be a problem. And possibly a 911 call. It seems like it might be kind of a high risk to put a kid on a vegan diet, to say nothing of pets. You know, those people are trying to make their dog vegan.

[Jessica Wynn]

I am really proud of my vegan lifestyle, and I think it's cruel to do that to pets. They're not built that way. They're not thinking that way. I've had pets through the years. They are carnivores because that's what they want, you know? Yeah, we could talk about that more, but I sort of think that's a full stop. I think that's like giving your animal orthorexia. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, you're. You're sort of forcing a diet on an animal that's not gonna adapt.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that's ethically questionable for a whole different reasons. But there are dozens of studies that show vegan and vegetarian kids grow up just fine, sometimes even healthier. But their diets just need to be planned really carefully, especially regarding B12 and calcium. Same with vegan pregnancies, because the nutrients in your body become your baby's building blocks. So if you skip One, there's risk, and that risk comes from doing it wrong. As always, it's important to look at who's funding the studies about this, though, because it's easy to find research that says both things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It seems like it would be stressful to have a vegan pregnancy.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, not at all. Depending on who you are. Many women do it, and it can be totally healthy. The bigger issue is most doctors don't know about vegan nutrition. And that can lead to issues like low birth weight, poor fat reserves, which is important if you're breastfeeding, and other deficiencies. And this continues if a vegan mommy breastfeeds. So many vegan moms choose non traditional births because traditional hospitals, they make it hard. Hospitals just aren't vegan friendly. But vegan pregnancies should be studied because there's actually data suggesting there's less postpartum depression among vegans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are pediatricians educated in vegan nutrition to help kids at all? I mean, it seems very niche.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, not really. And it's also kind of rare. It's not a really common thing, although it's done. It's not that common. There was a recent study that compared like 150 vegetarians, 115 vegans, and I think it was 137 omnivore kids. The vegetarians and vegans ate more carbs. The omnivores ate more protein. But when it came to all other vitamins and minerals, there were no differences. And the researchers concluded there were no specific nutrient deficiencies in any of those groups. But this was just one study. And there's so many factors not accounted for. And it's worth noting, it is rare. It's rare to be born and raised a vegan. And we don't keep track of those statistics. And it's not. The pediatricians aren't educated for that lifestyle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It seems like such a huge gap in the medical community. So there's no difference in development based on what kids are eating. And I don't know. That's hard to believe. Yeah, that's tough.

[Jessica Wynn]

I did find a study that pointed to children born and raised vegan come out slightly shorter than omnivore kids.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Aha. Just kidding.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. But I don't know if that's such a flex because it's like, well, yeah, our GMO tomatoes are bigger than natural tomatoes. So I don't know why. It might be the hormones that the non vegan kids are eating that are making them taller. So, I mean, that's the biggest difference. I'VE come across, though, is the height. So the designs of all these studies, they're really easy to poke holes in. And of course, there's cases of malnourished vegans, but I see toddlers at McDonald's too, so. I mean, is anybody doing this right? I don't have kids. Gross. But if I did, I'd be fine raising them vegan at home. That said, if my hypothetical toddler wanted pizza and cake at a birthday party, I don't think that should be an issue.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you'd let your hypothetical kid eat pizza? What a hypocrite. Look at you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Look, as long as there's no allergies involved, everyone, even kids, should try any food they want. And social development matters here too. You know, food policing can traumatize kids.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Jessica Wynn]

Plus, it's pizza. Like, let's be real. I don't care what kind of vegan cheese wizardry you make. It sucks. I've been vegan for over 30 years. I've never found a good substitute for mammal based cheese.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, raising kids without animal products is safe. Okay, vegan pizza is gross. Yes, McDonald's every day is a bad idea. Bold take. Fine.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, definitely. Like, do you remember Morgan Spurlock, the super size we got?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do. It's funny, I was just thinking about that earlier.

[Jessica Wynn]

He gained £25, right? He wrecked his liver, he got depressed, he lost his sex drive. All from one month of just eating McDonald's. Wow. He died at 53 years old from cancer. I mean, we can't say it was the McDonald's, but I don't think that could have helped.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe. But I've also read he started abusing alcohol at the age of 13 and continued that through his fast food experiments. I mean, if he's drinking like a bottle of vodka per day, is it the Big Macs, though? Morgan, was it really? You know, Come on, man.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, his partner. Actually, she was not in my class, but she attended that same health program I did at Natural Gourmet. And I have heard lots of stories about that guy. But regardless of his checkered past, he provided a lot of evidence with how quick junk food, specifically McDonald's, can change our bodies for the worse.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, fast food for sport is not a long term health strategy. But hey, at least he was getting his protein, right? We haven't mentioned. We haven't really mentioned it. That's kind of one of the big things that people throw at vegans is where do you get your protein? I know. I don't think this is a secret, but producer Gabriel, who is a vegan, one of the issues he always has is not getting enough protein. And I think also he just. If you're willing to eat a larger volume of food, it's probably easier. But you know, he eats like a normal person. When I go to his house and he makes these huge bowls of oatmeal and like protein stuff that's probably gonna last him like two meals. I house the whole thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

And you're still hungry?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, no, I'm not, but I. Well, maybe an hour later. But yeah, it's. Getting enough protein is not easy for vegans. It's just there's. It can be tough.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't know this protein controversy. It's asked constantly, but I think, and Gabe, I hope you're listening. I think it can be a total non issue protein panic as far as. At least personally for me is a myth. I think it's silly. I mean, look around at nature. Elephants, horses, giraffes, rhinos, they're all giant jacked vegans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true.

[Jessica Wynn]

Plant based protein is everywhere.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don't they also spend most of the day eating though?

[Jessica Wynn]

Eating? Yeah. I mean, that's it, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So getting enough protein as a vegan is fine. You just have to spend 8 out of your 10 waking hours eating bamboo, whatever.

[Jessica Wynn]

There's a great vegan meme that shows two separate images and chose like a burger and fries in one stomach and okay, that's enough protein and then the other stomach is like 10 times that amount of fruits and vegetables. You just have to eat so much more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, my friend was vegan. She came home, you know those party trays, not the big ones, but the medium party tray of vegetables. I was like, what is that? She's like, this is my lunch. And I thought she was kidding. And I sat there with her for 90 minutes while she just non stop ate every vegetable in this party tray. Yeah, I think that was her lunch.

[Jessica Wynn]

Problem too is we're so trained for three meals a day. When I think especially if you're vegan, it's sort of eat little and often. You know, that's probably eat seven times a day for vegans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. But beans and broccoli can make you swole, eh?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, eat enough of them. Yes. You know, there's a long list of vegan bodybuilders, Olympians and NFL stars. Cam Newton, really famous football player, does not want his roast beef Boston fans to know. Sorry to call you out, Cam. That he credits his veganism with his speed and recovery times, because half an avocado, 2 grams of protein, a cup of lentils, 18 grams of protein, throw in tofu, tempeh, quinoa, nuts, it can start adding up really fast.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So we're just bamboozled. The protein myth thing is a bunch of nonsense?

[Jessica Wynn]

I think so. And maybe food shamed, like you think you're eating too much, but if you're not, not eating meat and dairy, it's okay to eat a bigger portion. You know, there's a lot of myths that are born from a kernel of truth. Plant proteins are less digestible than animal proteins. But that doesn't mean vegans don't absorb any protein. It's not a flaw, it's just how we're designed. So vegans need to eat more. The bonus is more fiber and better digestion. So, so eat more salad, you sweat less, you poop better, everybody wins.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so meat eaters need to relax and stop acting like vegans are about to collapse mid sentence, basically.

[Jessica Wynn]

That would be really nice. But it does sell steak, right? Like death can be manly and it distracts from what they're depriving themselves of, like that fiber antioxidants meat eaters lose out on and not becoming obese by 30 and dying from heart disease at 57.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Obesity, obviously a real problem in the western world, especially ozempic sales, kind of prove that, I suppose.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh my gosh. I know, we should do an episode on that because now that people have been on it so long, we're starting to see how horrible it is. But anyway, what's worse is the food industry pushing these ultra processed options. You know, I bet General Mills isn't making vegan yogurts and plant based jerky because it's so considerate of our different eating habits. It's not about health, it's about their market share.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So veganism is just what you eat or what you don't eat.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's that lifestyle too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

There's research showing vegans have a longer life expectancy because the lifestyle matters. Vegans, on average, they drink less, they smoke less, they're more active. I mean, still, these studies are messy because of who funds them. And a study funded by the dairy industry will have really different results than one funded by PETA.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? Yeah, of course. They both have their entrenched interests. Slash are going to be extreme.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, exactly. PETA is extreme. And they are definitely militant. And sometimes I think their tactics backfire. I think they're coming from a good place. But if you Watch the footage that they've accessed. You would probably get outraged too. You know, we have ag gag laws for a reason and they're laws that make it illegal to film what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's crazy to me. Imagine having a law that says like, hey, you can't film anything that happens in school. You'd be like, what's happening in school that I'm not supposed to see? What the hell? I'd pull my kids out of that school immediately. I've heard about this. I know sometimes footage gets leaked or whistleblowers come out with horrific stories and it's. I think I've seen a documentary with a little bit of leaked slaughterhouse footage and it's. There are no words. I mean, it's just absolutely revolting.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, you don't really see Instagram reels from the killing floor because the USDA actually recommends no windows in slaughterhouses for this reason.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my gosh.

[Jessica Wynn]

And those ag gag laws are anti whistleblower and apply to just our animal agriculture. Like it's literally a gag rule on what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses is. Moby recently teamed up with PETA. They made. It's actually a great short about all of this, but we can put a link. But I will warn you, it's very depressing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So Moby loves. Yeah, he loves putting all this stuff. It's like, here's an even more depressing thing than I posted last time.

[Jessica Wynn]

He's a big vegan activist.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He is, yeah. I don't really want to see any of that. But it will be linked in the show notes.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, and then in the 90s, this all came from the Animal Liberation Front movement in the 90s, which scared the agricultural business. So laws were passed banning journalists from farms and slaughterhouses. What they wanted to do was bring the horrors of the meat and dairy industry to the public eye. And the government was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that. We make a ton of money off of this animal suffering. I mean, we could do a whole episode on ag gag. But those PETA videos of free range chickens, what their reality is, they get censored online all the time because this truth is hard to swallow. And when you see those cage free and free range and things, what that actually is definitionally is probably not as comfortable and happy as you think. The ethics like this, they're a core reason for many vegans.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what's the case for animal ethics? Not that I disagree with this in principle, obviously, but I'm curious.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, like we talked about earlier, you wouldn't let a dog suffer to save a dollar. So why do we tolerate this cow's suffering? You know, this is where the lecture part kind of starts and people bury their heads. But factory farming is unethical no matter what your package says. Animals feel pain, they feel pleasure. They fear joy. And ethical vegans believe that they deserve moral consideration.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's heavy. And sometimes veganism is cultural or religious as well. Right, right.

[Jessica Wynn]

Of course. Hinduism, some Buddhism. There's other groups that discourage or prohibit animal consumption. And for many other vegans, it's also about the planet. Veganism uses less land, less water, and produces fewer greenhouse gases.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That makes sense, but there's still some footprint.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, of course. But livestock farming leaves a much bigger one. It just has really good pr. There was a few years ago, I don't know if you remember, it was this whole campaign about almond trees need so much water.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was like we did a show about almonds and how bad they were for the environment here in California.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, I think that was just. I mean, my understanding is that was just a smear campaign from the dairy industry. Big dairy was trying to kneecap almond milk because their sales were going down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see.

[Jessica Wynn]

It takes way more water to farm cows than almond trees. I mean, look, any tree needs a lot of water. That's just. Just the fact. But more water is needed for farming animals. Plus, you're skipping the toxic runoff, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Our argument wasn't, hey, they should put cows here. Our argument was, hey, they should not be growing almonds in a desert. This is a terrible, terrible idea.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was like doing all this stuff to the aquifer. This is one of those things where it's like, dairy can be really bad for the environment, and almonds probably shouldn't grow in the desert. I don't know. I'll have to revisit that episode. Farming anything is in the desert with a ton of water.

[Jessica Wynn]

Remember we did bananas? That was really bad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, exactly. So, okay, almond farming does produce less water pollution. I did not know that. But that makes sense.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, big time. Because animal waste contaminates groundwater in rivers. So if you shift to just plants, you. You cut that drastically.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You still have to grow tons of soy for vegans, though, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, you do? I mean, it's probably less than you think. Think a shift toward veganism. It would actually reduce the demand for crops like soy, which are often grown on Deforested lands, that's another bonus. But most soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Like raising livestock demands much more water and there's countless studies about this that show meat production consumes far more water than plant based food production. So cut out the animals, you cut out a lot of the soy fields. I'm not saying there's, there's no bad environmental outcomes, but it's just a lot less.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I had not thought about the fact that a lot of that soy was grown not for people, but for animals. That had not occurred to me. People really defend their diets, man. It seems impossible to live a completely animal free life.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, look, vegans take medicines that have been tested on animals because, well, life's complicated and that, that's just how scientific research works to save lives sometimes. Of course I'm going to take that medicine if I need to. But shampoo that's tested on animals, that seems like an unnecessary evil to me. I mean, I might buy a chapstick that contains an animal product over one that's petroleum based because, you know, you start asking yourself like, what's more important here, animal welfare or the environment? It starts to become somewhat of a Sophie's Choice when you get out of just thinking about your veggie burger.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some people won't ever choose a veggie burger, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, people love eating meat or some people love eating meat. It's just different. People are wired for different diets and that's okay. You know, research can't perfectly isolate veganism's effects, but there is plenty of evidence that it's better in a lot of ways. At the very least, you know, be mindful of what you're eating. Maybe be vegan once a day or you don't have to have meat every meal. I just want the guy that's eating Cheez it crusted hot dog casserole who can't make it up a flight of steps without wheezing to stop lecturing vegans. Give vegans a break. Maybe skip some flesh every now and then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dang, shots fire. Who's a militant vegan now?

[Jessica Wynn]

Sorry, I'm not saying give up meat. I'm not. I'm just saying shop smart. I always like to tell people, stick to the perimeter of the grocery store. That's where the fresh fruits, vegetables and yes, fresh fish and meats are. And they are better than anything you're going to buy down an aisle. That's just the facts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I don't think I'm ready to give up the meats? Not yet. But no matter what your diet, I think we should all be thinking more about what we're putting in our bodies and the cost of the environment. And to our little furry or not so little furry friends as well. Thanks, Jessica.

[Jessica Wynn]

You're welcome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thanks everyone for listening. Topic Suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to [e-mail] Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her substacks. That's multiple substacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Of course we try to get these episodes as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it is fact checked, so consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What happens when you speak out against Vladimir Putin and the KGB starts showing up in your life outside of Russia? Konstantin Samoylov didn't just flee his homeland to avoid conscription. He's now exposing the regime from abroad with a target on his back.

[Konstantin Samoylov]

I was growing up under impression that the USA was the cradle of all evil in the world. Okay, it was bad. And then the world started opening up and I understood that the commies were lying. Imagine for 70 years you're told that nothing good for people in the west. It's darkness there. None in Russia thought that we could invade Ukraine. And then I was absolutely caught off guarded. It's unbelievable. The Russian state didn't care about what was being said about it on the outside. All they cared was on the inside. But now the focus has shifted on telling the truth about Russia, how things are and my YouTube channel started growing. The numbers exploded because everyone wanted to be a part of a community a support group, and I think that I'm becoming a bigger and bigger danger to them. So they're trying to neutralize me one way or another. Knowing that I am on the radar is one thing, but when you see actually an agent in real life, that's different. Ball game. I'm not stopping. I keep on talking because I was silent for 15 years. I was looking at my country going down to hell, and I wasn't doing anything about it. So there's no way they're gonna shut me up, even if I put myself into more danger. I think that's more important right now. To tell the truth of what's really happening in Russia. If not me, then who?

[Jordan Harbinger]

To hear more about life under dictatorship, the myths of Russian strength, and what it really costs to tell the truth, Check out episode 1021 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.