Jordan Harbinger (1:46)

It does.

Gabriel Mizrahi (1:46)

By the way, not a huge pastel de nata guy.

Jordan Harbinger (1:49)

No, me neither. Everyone's like, eat 10 of these things. For me, they're so good. I had one, I was like, okay, it's an egg tart.

Gabriel Mizrahi (1:54)

It's fine.

Jordan Harbinger (1:54)

Yeah, it's fine. They love them here. I tried a lot of Portuguese food. I have to say, it's amazing how thin everyone is for how heavy the food is. It's got to be portion control, because.

Gabriel Mizrahi (2:03)

Portion control or just walking everywhere.

Jordan Harbinger (2:05)

Well, I had a sandwich that was like thick bread. A steak. Literally a steak was on it. Then they're like, we need to add ham on the steak and then they put sausage on top of the ham. And then they put.

Gabriel Mizrahi (2:16)

Don't they just dump cheese on it?

Jordan Harbinger (2:18)

There's sausage in there. Yeah, there's another slice of bread. Then they put cheese on it. I don't mean like a slice of cheese. I mean the thing is covered in melted cheese. And then they dump a sauce on there. Which in my case, since I had it at some like basic bitch place, was ketchup.

Gabriel Mizrahi (2:30)

It's more like cheese magma coming out of the volcano of the sandwich.

Jordan Harbinger (2:33)

Yes. And it's also huge. It's not like a small. It's not like a croque monsieur where you're like, okay. It's like a family meal. So, yeah, everyone's thin. They walk everywhere. Portion control, chain smoke, cigarettes.

Gabriel Mizrahi (2:43)

Oh, yeah, don't forget that part.

Jordan Harbinger (2:44)

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi (2:45)

All part of a balanced European diet.

Jordan Harbinger (2:46)

That's right. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Undercover agents, former jihadis CEOs, rocket scientists. This week we had journalist Chris Dalby on crime and sports, gambling, human trafficking. Chris is a journalist who investigates criminal activity in the sports world. So match fixing, human trafficking, and soccer, which I didn't realize was a thing. But that explains why you see Brazilians playing for like a Division 6 team in Slovakia. Stuff you've never thought about. Super interesting conversation. Also done live in Portugal. On Fridays though, we share because I had to write this trip off, so I had to do, you know. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play silly sound bites, and occasionally meet up in various international locales to take a dude cruise together live and in person. Because if you can't tell, I'm here in Porto visiting Gabe on his last week in Portugal.

Gabriel Mizrahi (3:45)

Ben Vindo.

Jordan Harbinger (3:46)

Mano. Obrigado. Homizao. Homy Sal.

Gabriel Mizrahi (3:51)

Homizao.

Jordan Harbinger (3:51)

Obrigado. Homiza. Hey, everybody, it's producer Jace here. Just wanted to point out that if you want to skip to the first question and Ms. Jordan and Gabe's story, you can do so by skipping to 12 minutes and 30 seconds. Enjoy the show.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:07)

Dude. It's been a minute since we've traveled together. I'm used to seeing your kata on My computer.

Jordan Harbinger (4:12)

That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:12)

I'm looking at it in person.

Jordan Harbinger (4:13)

Three dimensional. Smell o vision. Yeah, it's fun. I gotta fly halfway around the world to make it happen, but it's fun when we can do this.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:19)

Oh, I'm so sorry for dragging you to this paradise.

Jordan Harbinger (4:22)

Well, now you know why I love it here so much. By the way, when I got off the plan, I was like, oh, we got to take the red line to go to Porto from Lisbon. And the red line, I guess the word for red is vermilion or some sort of Portuguese. And I was like, how appropriate is it that we need to take the vermilion line to go meet Gabriel and Porto?

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:41)

Because it's so funny.

Jordan Harbinger (4:42)

Just in case people are not familiar, Gabriel was the proud owner of a vermilion blouse.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:47)

Yeah, I like that. You need to explain that at this point.

Jordan Harbinger (4:49)

Yeah, I don't think anybody.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:50)

The red line. That's right. They call it Vermelho.

Jordan Harbinger (4:53)

Yeah. I had to tell the joke to Jen. It's somehow not as funny if you don't have the background of the whole show. By the way, great space you got.

Gabriel Mizrahi (4:59)

Yeah. Not bad, right?

Jordan Harbinger (5:00)

Yeah, very. It's a brand new studio. We're just in a brand new studio that no one's ever used. So I had the pleasure of setting up all their equipment for them.

Gabriel Mizrahi (5:07)

We're actually recording live from the Social Hub, which is my new favorite place in Porto.

Jordan Harbinger (5:12)

Yeah, the place is great. I feel like they took three or four genres of hospitality and combined them into one place. So there's a coffee shop and like a hotel.

Gabriel Mizrahi (5:19)

I would describe it as if a coworking space, a hotel, a resident residential apartment building, and like a members only club. Had a baby. That would be the Social Hub.

Jordan Harbinger (5:28)

Yeah, it's exactly. It's like Soho House, except you can wear flip flops without feeling like a schlub and having someone come talk to you about appropriate attire.

Gabriel Mizrahi (5:35)

That's right. You don't need to wear a leather jacket here. Soho House meets early Facebook. That's the general vibe.

Jordan Harbinger (5:40)

Yes, I'm a fan. I walk in to meet you. I see this beautiful breakfast spread. In the restaurant, there's a ping pong table, which I would never use, but Jen wanted to play it. Then I see all these people working on laptops. There's a gym. Now we're sitting in a soundproof studio. I'm impressed.

Gabriel Mizrahi (5:52)

They also have a rooftop with a pool that overlooks the city. So almost every night I go up there and I write while the sun goes down. Pretty great spot.

Jordan Harbinger (5:59)

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like having a place like this when you're traveling is so clutch because you don't have an office. You don't want to be stuck in your apartment all day or some Airbnb. And when you're solo traveling, it's just nice to be around other people, even if they're not really your friends.

Gabriel Mizrahi (6:10)

Of course. Also, the people who work here are so nice.

Jordan Harbinger (6:13)

Yeah, I noticed that. I got a good vibe from the woman at the front desk. It's not like, remember back in the day staying at youth hostels and everyone's just exhausted to see you and they just don't care. You're, like, excited to be there and they're like, whatever, and I'm never going to see you again.

Gabriel Mizrahi (6:25)

No, the people here are cool. Also, they have locations in tons of cities. Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin, Paris. So I might just keep joining for a month.

Jordan Harbinger (6:33)

Wherever I go, fully endorse that one. I was actually thinking on my way over here, the last time we did an international trip together was what, China and North Korea, literally.

Gabriel Mizrahi (6:41)

I guess so. Yeah. This is better than North Korea.

Jordan Harbinger (6:44)

Yeah, it is. It's just a little bit. It's just a couple notches above that open air prison. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi (6:48)

The breakfast spread is slightly nicer than the one in Pyongyang.

Jordan Harbinger (6:51)

Yes, I agree. Remember the coffee in Pyongyang where they were just like, no, have. No.

Gabriel Mizrahi (6:57)

Did you say, do you remember the coffee that didn't exist?

Jordan Harbinger (6:59)

Well, they would. If you were the first 10 people you would get. They'd make like one filter coffee that was supposed to be like, for a cup of coffee and they would use it for a hundred people. So by the end it was just water with like a hint of coffee smell. But then the taste, it wasn't there. And they were just like, nope, we don't have any more. Anyway, yesterday was hilarious, dude. So basically Jen and my cousin Lindsay and I all came here together. Our editor, our sound engineer, Jace, who lives in somewhere in the rural Czech Republic, he flew in to meet us all as well. And we've been running around Porto, checking out the sites, trying Portuguese food, playing games, doing walking tours. Then yesterday we go to this vineyard and, you know, it's like wine tasting and port and a boat ride. And Gabe decided he didn't want to go because wine makes him sad, which is the opposite effect.

Gabriel Mizrahi (7:39)

It does. Does it not do that to you? I drink of a glass and I get very tired and I get slightly sad. And then the Next day I feel like I'm at 50% battery.

Jordan Harbinger (7:48)

Yeah, that's. I mean, drinking is not good for you generally. You decide you need to get out of the city for a day.

Gabriel Mizrahi (7:53)

I did.

Jordan Harbinger (7:53)

So the vineyard thing was fun. I'm not a wine guy at all, but like is a bunch of middle aged women and me and then like a couple of younger folks and they just got trashed.

Gabriel Mizrahi (8:03)

Trashed on the vineyard tour.

Jordan Harbinger (8:04)

Yeah. And then we had a boat ride and then the guys who run the boat were like, let's play Village People and like Spice Girls.

Gabriel Mizrahi (8:11)

Which is, by the way, the things that these tour guides have seen in the Dodo Valley. I can only imagine they've seen all genres of trash from foreigners, I think.

Jordan Harbinger (8:20)

So they said we were the most fun group they've had in a while. And I don't think they were kidding because they were up dancing with us and laughing and they were like, what do you guys want to hear next? They were super enthusiast.

Gabriel Mizrahi (8:28)

That sounds lit. Sorry I missed this.

Jordan Harbinger (8:30)

And the other boats weren't doing anything but taking videos of our boat because we were the drums with a cool boat. Yeah. And it's funny because it wasn't like I was with the obviously fun people. I was with this guy who was like a coach for Duke, like a collegiate Duke sports team. I won't say which, but he was like a serious guy, like an athletic. And he was high AF on champagne and just lit like doing the Titanic thing off the front of the boat with his wife who was like also a hardcore athlete. And then a bunch, a bunch of retired like librarian looking women who were just like, play Bob Seger.

Gabriel Mizrahi (9:03)

That's the target demo. Vineyard tourism.

Jordan Harbinger (9:05)

Yeah, for sure. And then Jen and me and my cousin who were like rapping to Spice Girls and just going nuts. Anyway, you didn't do that. You hung out with Jace and you had a little adventure of your own.

Gabriel Mizrahi (9:17)

I did. So I've been wanting to do a day trip for a minute and I just kept running into reasons to not do it. I would have an appointment or I had to go to another hot yoga class or whatever. And finally I was like, I really want to do this day trip. And then Jace had the day before he had to fly home. He couldn't go on your vineyard tour. So I was like, why don't we go together and do a little road trip? So our plan is we're going to drive to this national park that's in the north northeast of Porto, near the border with Spain. And on the way you have to drive through this town called Braga. So we get to Braga, it's like 40 minutes away, very quiet town, really beautiful. One of those towns though, where you're like, what do you do in Braga? And it's like, you can go to this church, you can go to this church, you can go to this church. You can go to 19 churches. And we're like, got it. So we saw one or two churches. They're stunning. It's very well preserved, baroque architecture. But really we're just there to get coffee and some breakfast before we go on our big hike. So I parked the rental car in the only available spot I can find and we walk to the restaurant. I put a little bit of money in the meter and I knew when I put the money in the meter, like, this probably isn't enough time. But this town is so sleepy. And nothing happens in Portugal before like 9:30 in the morning. So I'm convinced that we'll just. It's fine. Nothing bad's gonna happen. Go to the restaurant, we have a nice leisurely breakfast, we walk back to the car. And when I get back to the car, there is a gaggle of cops.

Jordan Harbinger (10:34)

So half the police department, like half.

Gabriel Mizrahi (10:35)

The police department in this small town is hanging out and there's a tow truck. It's like a whole scene on the street. And I'm like, oh, I wonder what happened. Someone did something. It was an accident. I start to climb into the car and the cops walk up to me and they're like, is this your car? They're speaking Portuguese.

Jordan Harbinger (10:48)

Sir, is this your vehicle?

Gabriel Mizrahi (10:49)

Yes.

Jordan Harbinger (10:50)

And you're like.

Gabriel Mizrahi (10:50)

And I was like, yeah. And I'm not sure, I don't know if you've ever dealt with this when you're traveling, but I wasn't sure whether to speak Portuguese and kind of like be agreeable or fake or fake that I don't. Because then they'll just be like, oh, I'll give.

Jordan Harbinger (11:03)

Hopefully, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi (11:04)

So I kind of leaned into that and I was just speaking English, hoping that they would just be like, oh, he's American. This is going to be triple the amount of paperwork, whatever this is, and I don't want to deal with it. You can just go. But they're not giving up. And they're like, they can't really explain to me what the problem is. But there's a ticket on my windshield. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't put enough money in the machine. We must have just overstayed. But what's the big deal? And they're like, our chief wants to talk to you. You need to come down to the station. I look at Jace and he looks at me like, what's going on? I'm like, I have no idea.

Jordan Harbinger (11:30)

Human trafficking.

Gabriel Mizrahi (11:31)

And we've done nothing wrong other than not put enough money in the machine. So I'm not panicking. Mostly I was actually kind of excited. This is the most exciting thing happening in Braga at the moment, for sure. So one of the cops escorts us to the police department, which is about two blocks away. And the whole time we're just like, what is about to happen in here? And when I get to the station, which is the smallest police station I've ever seen in my life, there are these two admin people, a man and a woman behind a plexiglass screen and another couple cops standing around. And they explain to me that I've parked in a disabled parking space.

Jordan Harbinger (12:05)

Sounds like a fairly big emergency for that guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi (12:07)

It's like a 10 out of 10 in bright. Yeah. So basically I just had to pay a fine and a citation. But it was a whole production. Took like 30 minutes for them to type up my details into the computer. And then I paid. They're like, it's going to be €60 and then you can go and you just have to show the rental car company that you paid the ticket. So I did. And at the end we were all laughing and we're all friends and then we walked back to the car and we went on our way. But it was such a bizarre detour in this small town. It was so funny. Definitely the most action they've seen in this town for a while.

Jordan Harbinger (12:33)

Exactly. It's one of those things where they could not wait to give a foreigner a ticket. Like we have to file a supplemental form because he doesn't have a passport.

Gabriel Mizrahi (12:41)

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger (12:42)

A national ID card.

Gabriel Mizrahi (12:43)

They seem to enjoy it. So maybe they just don't have enough to do.

Jordan Harbinger (12:46)

That could be it. That's small town life for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi (12:48)

But that ate up like an hour. And I had to drop Jace off at the airport back in Porto at 5 o'. Clock. So we did not have a lot of time. So we haul ass to this national park. We're asking all these people along the way like, hey, where's this waterfall? We've heard about this beautiful waterfall. And people are like, I think it's here, I think it's there, but it's unclear where it is. And finally we find this tiny little section of this Tiny little town. One of those towns where you can't drive on the roads past a certain point because they're so narrow. So we leave the car in a parking lot and we hike into the national park. And we hike down this trail, which is stunning, one of the most beautiful places I've seen in Portugal. And we finally found this mythical place, which turned out to not be a waterfall at all, at least not at this time of year. But it was one of those clear water pools, and we had the greatest swim of my life. And I can't tell if it was because the pool was great or we just had to go through so much drama.

Jordan Harbinger (13:35)

Yeah, yeah, you had to earn it.

Gabriel Mizrahi (13:37)

But it was so nice. So that's what we were doing while you guys were on the vineyard tour. It was pretty great.

Jordan Harbinger (13:42)

Well, your life is nice. My life is nice. Let's talk to some people whose lives are falling apart, shall we? What is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi (13:50)

Hey, Jordan and gabe. Sometime between 2015 and 2017, I did an online erotic role play with somebody that I didn't know was underage at the time. We never shared any images or videos at all, just texting as characters. I was unaware that the person was a decade younger than me and told the person sometime after that we should never do this again. Time passed and things were fine until a few days ago when the person I roleplayed with in a private server told the story about what we did and everyone started calling me a groomer. I never intended to hurt this person and I was disgusted. Looking back on what we did years ago, I felt like killing myself after thinking about my actions. I blame the miner's parents for not looking after her, as she shouldn't have been online at a very young age. I wanted to speak to the victim and tell my side, but a friend told me that that would make it worse. What should I do? Signed, trying to scramble to clear my handle amid this unfortunate scandal.

Jordan Harbinger (14:47)

Oof. Yeah. What a stressful situation. I'm sorry this happened for both of you. I suppose it just sucks that you didn't know who you were chatting with and she did. Or at least she knew how old she was, and that put you in a very compromising position. The good news is, once you knew she was a minor, you drew a line and you stopped. And that was the right thing to do. And confirms for me, sort of, based on what you've shared anyway, that you're a decent person, as per usual, to get a good handle on your legal Options here, we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. The first thing Corbyn said was that the laws on sexually inappropriate conduct are notoriously vague and broad. They're written that way to enable law enforcement to cast as wide a net as possible in charging people. And Corbyn doesn't know if you broke the law or you could be charged with a crime. He said, that depends largely on where you and this person are located, the individual law enforcement officers who might or might not be involved, the individual prosecutors who might or might not be involved. And that's just too many variables for him to feel comfortable saying you wouldn't be prosecuted. Now, taking everything you shared with us at face value, Corbin doesn't think you broke the law because you didn't know she was a minor. That could be used in your favor, but, I mean, he'd rather it never come to that. And prosecutors, victim advocacy groups, law enforcement, they have successfully lobbied most state legislatures to make it easier to convict somebody in situations like this by making it easier to establish intent for purposes of a conviction. Also, Corbyn's experience is that juries, of course, hate child exploitation. A competent prosecutor can tell a compelling story about what happened here and generally gross a jury out enough that they convict on general grossness. I'm not saying you're gross. He just knows plenty of prosecutors who would happily make arguments along these lines and just think nothing of it. So Corbyn's take is let this one go. Don't contact this person, don't defend your actions, don't explain it to anyone. Just move on.

Gabriel Mizrahi (16:31)

And not just legally, but emotionally. Corbin pointed out that the fact that this minor was engaging in this behavior, I mean, who knows what this person was going through, what her life was like, all of that, but it might be indicative of some difficult things going on in her life, some potentially unhealthy things going on in her life. Could be loneliness, could be social anxiety, could be something more serious. You know, maybe she was seeking some kind of escape. Whatever it is, she's talking about this with other people, and she's trying to grapple with her life and process certain things that she's done. And unfortunately, that is casting you in a bad light. And that might be unfair, but Corbin would respectfully suggest that this probably isn't about you. It's largely about her. And Corbin doesn't think that you'll help yourself by trying to defend yourself to her or to an audience of total strangers who do not seem to be very interested in the nuances or the details here, but you also might not even need to do that. So Corbyn was pretty emphatic on this point. He sees no upside and he sees a potential for tremendous downside.

Jordan Harbinger (17:28)

Also, it's been between eight and 10 years since this happened, and yet no one's knocked on your door. Corbyn said that where a possible criminal charge of abuse or exploitation of a child is concerned, you can't really count on statutes of limitations to save your bacon, but with a civil suit, you might be safer. That's also state specific. However, he said the time period does help. The statute of limitations might not apply, but we still have important rights related to speedy trials, the ability to access best evidence. The longer the time period between the alleged crime and the arrest and the charge, the more a defendant can argue that the delay in bringing it has prejudiced them. And that's true of both civil and criminal cases. So Corbyn would take some comfort in that, but he still wouldn't kick the hornet's nest here. So Corbyn's last piece of advice in the future, if you or anyone listening right now wants to engage in online role playing with somebody, ask them to confirm that they're at least 18. I don't know how you do that, but maybe do it with somebody you trust. They might lie, of course, but Corbin said that can really help with future issues. I'm really sorry things played out this way, but it's a good cautionary tale, one you've probably learned without paying a significant price, and one everyone else can learn from, too. The Internet's a crazy place. There's a ton of informational asymmetry out there. People surprise, surprise, often not who they say they are online. And when it comes to sexual stuff, you just have to take extra precautions to protect yourself and to protect others, too. So watch where you step, or where you hop on the good foot and do the bad. I don't know. This metaphor totally fell apart, you know what I mean? Don't rub one out without knowing what the other person's about. How's that for a Feedback Friday chestnut?

Gabriel Mizrahi (18:57)

Get their deets before you skeet.

Jordan Harbinger (18:59)

Yeah, there you go, Skeets. Yada, yada, yada, yada. As the ancient wisdom foretold. You know, it's always legal to take advantage of Gabriel, a relationship where the only minor is the hit to your bank account. Stick around while we skeet some criminally good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

Gabriel Mizrahi (19:17)

So gross.

Jordan Harbinger (19:18)

Yep. We'll be right back after we wash our hands. This episode is sponsored in part by Headway. You know that stack of books that you keep meaning to read, but somehow they've been meaning to read for years? Headway is the app that makes sure those ideas don't just gather dust. It's your daily growth companion, distilling the best ideas from the world's top nonfiction books into 15 minute summaries you can read or listen to anywhere. The 48 Laws of Power, Thinking Fast and Slow, the lean startup plus about 1800 others across. Productivity, money, happiness, health. All in your pocket. It's not about replacing books, it's about making sure you actually get the takeaways you can use even when you're busy. Put one on during your commute, workout, walk, or while making dinner and you'll finish smarter than when you started. Headways, personalized to your goals, tracks your progress and helps you stick with it without feeling like homework. That's why over 50 million people use it. 2 million every month, and it's ranked number one in education on the App Store. Stop waiting for one day to magically appear and start growing today. Go to makeheadway.com jordan and use code jordan to get 25% off. This episode is also sponsored by Shopify. When I started this podcast, I had to wear every single hat at once. Writer, producer, tech guy, marketer, logo designer, whatever you name it. It got overwhelming real quick. If I were starting another business now, I'd want to have something like Shopify because it's basically like having a business partner who actually knows what they're doing. Shopify is the platform behind millions of businesses worldwide and about 10% of all E commerce in the US powering everyone from huge names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands that are just getting off the ground. Shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful online store that looks like your brand, not just a cookie cutter website. And when it comes to content, they packed in helpful AI tools that crank out product descriptions, headlines, even level up your product photography, marketing covered Shopify makes it easy to create email campaigns and social posts that feel like you've got a whole team working behind the scenes and and when it comes to the nuts and bolts of running a business inventory, international shipping, processing returns. Shopify has a world class experience built right in. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify.

Sponsor Voice (21:11)

Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Jordan go to shopify.com Jordan shopify.com Jordan thank you for.

Jordan Harbinger (21:27)

Listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here in Porto. All of the deals and discounts and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. All right, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi (21:46)

Hi Jordan and gabe.

Jordan Harbinger (21:47)

Hello.

Gabriel Mizrahi (21:48)

I'm 50, live in Switzerland and am the godmother to my friend's 8 year old son. Since her divorce a year ago, she's been parenting from a place of guilt, overcompensating with toys and giving the kids free reign. Her son is rude, doesn't listen, and is especially disrespectful to her. He constantly argues about anything and everything and pulls her into long tantrumy debates that often end with him getting his way. He also butts in during adult conversations and shouts at his mom when she ignores him. Last week she warned him that if he continued, I would probably want to break off my visit and go home, not realizing that that's exactly what he wants. Her three year old daughter is now copying her brother. Their dad is in the picture and also spoils the kids rotten with him. They get whatever they want when they want it. She also has a live in nanny who is a complete pushover. Though I don't have kids of my own, I've helped raise lots of kids so I'm not unfamiliar with the chaos, but this is something else. I've tried gently talking to her about setting limits and while she agrees in theory, she always reverts to blaming the divorce and spoiling the kids. I dread spending time with them, which feels awful to admit as a godmother, but it's the truth. How do I talk to her about this in a way that doesn't blow up the friendship? And is it okay to say that I don't want to spend time with the kids even though she knows that I'm great with kids in general? Signed A frustrated godmother looking for a buffer against this tyrannical little brother when every intervention just seems to require another.

Jordan Harbinger (23:19)

Ah man, this is a tough one. Gabe, there's this general category of letter we receive that I would call having to tell a person the really hard thing. Yeah, in some ways these are the toughest letters for me because I think, as I said last week, I can pitch a good script all day long for a stranger, but these Conversations make me sweaty in my own life, too.

Gabriel Mizrahi (23:36)

I know what you mean. It's really hard to tell somebody you're close with that they need to look at something difficult. But especially in this department, especially.

Jordan Harbinger (23:43)

Yeah, especially when that something difficult is their children and how they're raising them. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi (23:48)

Bit of a minefield.

Jordan Harbinger (23:49)

I don't know if you can have this conversation with someone without risking some difficult feelings. So my first question for our friend here is, is this important enough to risk those feelings? Is there truly no authentic way to move forward in the relationship without saying something about her parenting? And it sounds like the answer is no, which I totally understand. Especially because you guys are pretty close. You're this kid's godmother. It's not like this is some random friend you hang out with occasionally at work whose parenting you can completely ignore and still have a functional relationship. But it's also possible that this friendship is in the process of evolving. If you and this friend have fundamentally different values around parenting, for example, or more importantly, around giving and receiving feedback, then maybe you guys just can't be as close.

Gabriel Mizrahi (24:30)

And, you know, maybe that's okay too, in this case.

Jordan Harbinger (24:33)

True. Maybe this is someone you stay connected to, but you don't go near certain topics like her parenting, or you only hang out with her without the kids. That is an option. And that might not require you to have the full on hey, you're a bad mother and you're raising two monsters conversation, but your relationship will suffer as a result. In a different way, you'll be less close. You might feel a little bit like you're holding your tongue, inauthentic. Whatever word you want to put on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi (24:55)

So maybe the question is, which kind of weaker relationship do you want? Do you want a relationship where you guys stay connected but you aren't as close because you are cramping around this topic? Or do you want a relationship where you guys might become closer or at least more honest with each other, but you might go through a fight or a bit of a tough period?

Jordan Harbinger (25:13)

Good question. For me, this comes down to the quality of the friend and our history together.

Gabriel Mizrahi (25:17)

Although history is a funny thing, right? In a way, it means you owe someone more honesty. But in another way, history can make it harder to really speak up and tell somebody the truth.

Jordan Harbinger (25:26)

So true. Because you have all those years of not saying things something, and of them thinking you hold one opinion, and then it's like, bam, surprise. I actually feel this way, which can be scary. Although I gotta be honest, the friend probably knows I'M kind of going through this crap with my kids. They're being kind of crappy. I mean, she even said, if you don't stop, so and so is going to leave. Like, she knows. So you're not going to shock her by saying, by the way, I think your kids are spoiled.

Gabriel Mizrahi (25:50)

That's a good point. It's not like she's been telling her she's an amazing mother all this time. She has.

Jordan Harbinger (25:54)

Look how well behaved they are. No, like, they know and it's the elephant in the room and they're actually talking about it. She's mentioning it. She's just being a little bit opaque with it. And this. Our friend here hasn't said what everybody else knows, which is, your kids are crappy.

Gabriel Mizrahi (26:07)

But the challenging thing is, in our friend here's case, she's already tried gently talking to her about setting limits. And her friend is like, no, I know, you're right. But then she just goes back to spoiling her kids.

Jordan Harbinger (26:15)

True. Yeah. So on top of everything we're talking about, she also has some evidence that this friend just can't take this feedback in or can't act on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi (26:23)

That might be true. It might also be true that she owes her one final try.

Jordan Harbinger (26:26)

Okay, you want to pitch a script? She said, I do.

Gabriel Mizrahi (26:28)

I'll give it a go. So maybe you say, listen, I know we've talked about the divorce and the kids a lot recently. I know it's been hard to understand how best to parent them after the split. Maybe this is the way you want to parent them and that's your choice, of course. But I'm your friend. I'm godmother to your son. And I feel I owe it to you and to our friendship to tell you that I'm worried about the impact that this kind of parenting is going to have on your kids. I'm seeing this thing. I'm noticing that I would mention a couple specifics, not to be, you know, like, petty and mean, but just so she really remembers what's actually happening. And maybe you say candidly, I'm sorry to say this, it's a hard thing to say, but it is making me not want to spend as much time with them, which breaks my heart. That's how bad this has gotten. And you know that I love kids, so for it to get to this point must be a real problem. Now, I understand the position you're in. You're dealing with a lot of guilt from the divorce. You want the kids to feel loved. You want them to love you and maybe this seems like the best way to do it. It and also they're getting the same thing from their dad. But I gotta tell you, this is not the way to do it because play this out. They're 10, 15, 25, 45. What kind of people do you think they're going to become? How do you think they're going to treat other people? How are they going to deal with things when they don't get their way right?

Jordan Harbinger (27:38)

How is this serving them?

Gabriel Mizrahi (27:39)

Honestly, I've been afraid to bring this up because part of me is worried that it might mean the end of our friendship. And I'm really hoping that that is not the case. And I am not here to make you feel bad. I'm just here to help you notice a blind spot. And if you're open to it, maybe we can talk this out and find some new ways of responding to your kids. But I'm going to follow your lead here. You know where I stand. How is this landing with you? Do you see things in the same way? Are you open to talking about this? What is this like?

Jordan Harbinger (28:03)

Nice again, a script. I'd probably be nervous to say myself, but that's exactly the right approach. My hunch is that this friend is so consumed with guilt and she's so terrified of her own children that she can't stand up to them, which is a real problem. Yeah, but it comes from some deep seated stuff in her. So if she engages with you, she's willing to talk about this. I think you're gonna have to get into that stuff in order to make progress. Why is she so racked with guilt after the divorce? Why is she so afraid to set limits with her kids if she needs to be liked by them? Which I get. Of course. All parents have that to some degree. It's not insane to want your kids to love you. But if your main agenda is getting your kids to like you and forgive you, what the heck is that about?

Gabriel Mizrahi (28:39)

That is a really interesting observation. Because we all know that parents have to risk disappointing and frustrating their children sometimes, right? But if her central need is to be liked and approved of by them, then by spoiling them in this way, she's actually not necessarily doing this to make them feel better. She's doing it to make herself feel better, to fulfill this need that she has to avoid.

Jordan Harbinger (29:00)

The opposite feeling, to avoid having to feel unliked or punished or confirmed as.

Gabriel Mizrahi (29:05)

Bad somehow is even more problematic somehow. Because another part of being a parent is being able to hold those difficult feelings and then still love your children, right. To bear the feeling of, you know, like, I'm so mad at you, mom, or I'm not talking to you, dad, or whatever positions kids can get into when they're young but still stay connected to them, which is actually very crucial for children to feel. But if this woman can't do that, then she has a lot of work to do and that work is probably a lot deeper than a friend can.

Jordan Harbinger (29:29)

Help her with, right? Probably the kind of work best done in therapy, probably.

Gabriel Mizrahi (29:34)

But that's up to her to decide if she wants to go there. So you don't have to have this conversation. But I think it is probably the right thing to do. And the thing we keep coming back to is all big conversations have the potential to shake a relationship. And some people, unfortunately can be so shaken or so wounded or so ashamed or so angry, whatever it is, that they can't sustain the relationship anymore. But these conversations also have the potential to deepen those relationships.

Jordan Harbinger (30:00)

Right? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, so to speak.

Gabriel Mizrahi (30:02)

Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger (30:03)

You're also going to have to adjust your expectations here because even if you get through to her, you can't parent her kids for her. You can't be there every second of the day. You can't change her fundamentally. Even some progress would be a win here, but it might not look exactly like what you would do in her shoes. I hope your friend can take in what you have to say, or at least I hope you can make peace with a different level of closeness with her. And good luck. You can reach us Friday@jordanharbinger.com, please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If your ex is weaponizing the legal system against you in a bid for manipulation and control, you're trying to help your friend flee the Sri Lankan mafia or your mother in law is insisting on bringing a sex offender around your children. Whatever's got you sweating lately, hit us up Friday@jordanharbinger.com, we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. We Bit Wiser. This is a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read. Even less if you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show. I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up@jordanharbinger.com News all right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi (31:08)

Hi Jordan and gabe I'm a 25 year old guy from the UK and I live across the country from my family. My 21 year old brother recently moved back in with our mother after living with our dad for a couple of years. We knew he was in a bad place mentally and I had hoped that moving back in with my mom would give him a more supportive environment and a chance to turn things around. I recently met up with my mom and came to learn that things are a lot worse than originally suspected. He's depressed, refuses to leave the house or do basic adult things like going to the bank because he's too anxious and outright refuses to try engaging with therapy or any sort of helpline. He's also apparently been getting involved with a questionable person online, someone who's previously been in trouble with the police, but he won't share any more information about what or why, just that it quote unquote wasn't a big deal and quote unquote wasn't his fault. He claims he doesn't even know this person's name, that whatever messaging service they use has people use codenames so they can't get each other in trouble if anything were to happen. This raises so sketchy man, so dark, right? What discord server are they hanging out in?

Jordan Harbinger (32:14)

Or like shady crazy dark web telegram esque nonsense?

Gabriel Mizrahi (32:19)

I don't want to know where they're hanging out and what they're talking about. But it can't be good, right?

Jordan Harbinger (32:23)

No code names so you can't get each other in trouble. Like not codenames because it's the Internet and it's the 90s codenames so that you have plausible deniability for talking to a criminal who's planning a criminal action and you can't out your co conspirators.

Gabriel Mizrahi (32:37)

Come on, it's the same platform as the guy from question one.

Jordan Harbinger (32:40)

I mean this is. There's no good can come of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi (32:43)

This raises a lot of red flags. But he won't stop talking to this person as they're the only one who understands him, unquote. I knew my brother had previously seen a psychotherapist, so when I asked my mom if he was currently speaking to anybody, my mom revealed that the previous therapist informed her that they had to speak to the police about my brother, although they wouldn't disclose what it was about. There's obviously something illegal in the mix, but we don't know what. And the most concerning thing is that he said that the only reason he didn't act on whatever this Is is because he doesn't want to go to jail.

Jordan Harbinger (33:15)

Yeah, that's worrisome. I wonder what happened there. But just to be clear, this shady person he's talking to online in this incident with the police, those are two different things, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi (33:23)

It sounds like it, but I'm not totally sure. Either way, it sounds like he's involved with some shady stuff with some questionable people.

Jordan Harbinger (33:30)

Well, yeah. Things have to be pretty bad for a therapist to be like, okay, well, I have to call the police. I'm a mandated reporter. That's not merely suicidal ideation. Cause I think then they have to call. That's like a psychiatrical thing probably. This is like he was talking about killing someone or hurting someone or. It can't even just be a regular old crime. It has to be hurting someone else. I believe so.

Gabriel Mizrahi (33:53)

Unless the laws in the uk, that's different.

Jordan Harbinger (33:55)

Maybe it's different there, but probably similar, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi (33:58)

I would be so worried if this were my sibling. It's actually worse that they don't know exactly what happened.

Jordan Harbinger (34:02)

I agree.

Gabriel Mizrahi (34:02)

Now they have to just wonder and speculate.

Jordan Harbinger (34:04)

Yeah. Or the mom knows and is like, because he would have been a minor then, Right? You're not going to tell your adult patient's mom something. So the mom probably knows and is just like, I'm not going to share this because it's too dark and I don't want to admit that this actually happened.

Gabriel Mizrahi (34:18)

Oh man, that's possible. But it's also possible that the therapist couldn't tell her and she truly has no idea. But then the question is, why are you not in a dialogue with your own child about what they're really doing?

Jordan Harbinger (34:27)

Yes. Why did the police come over, ask you a bunch of questions? Because you told your therapist, the son.

Gabriel Mizrahi (34:32)

Is like, I don't have to tell you. I don't want to tell you. I just didn't do it because I don't want to go to jail. It's like, no, you're going to explain to me what is going on.

Jordan Harbinger (34:38)

You're living in the basement with no job, talking online to criminals all day.

Gabriel Mizrahi (34:41)

You owe me an explanation.

Jordan Harbinger (34:42)

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi (34:43)

Due to the aforementioned mental health issues, he's also been self harming and is possibly suicidal. And there's concern that if he were to lose access to these online outlets, even if they're toxic and harmful, he might not cope. I get the impression that he's so deep in this pit of misery that it's become familiar and safe. I've had a history of real mental health issues myself, so I can absolutely understand what that's like. But we have very different approaches to life and our challenges, and I've given all the advice I can think of in this area, and he seems to only sink deeper. My mother lives with her partner now, and they have a great relationship. But because my brother never tried to form any sort of relationship with him, it results in a challenging dynamic. I think my mom's partner can see the situation more objectively. So when my brother acts out, he's more likely to draw a firm line than my mom. I know he just wants the best for her, but when the best thing for her may be drawing a strict boundary with my brother, the situation becomes a lot more difficult. My mom shared that she feels stuck, that she doesn't want my brother to drive her and her partner apart, but she feels like she has to choose between them and that as a family, she has an obligation to be loyal to my brother. Since my mom met her partner, she's been so much happier and more fulfilled, and I would be deeply upset if my brother's issues were to break them apart. She's had a difficult life and absolutely deserves happiness, especially as she's getting closer to retirement age. How do you help somebody who doesn't want to be helped? What's the line between being compassionate and enabling? How do you do what's right, even when it might be painful? And how can my mom navigate wanting to do what's best for my brother without compromising her own, well, being in relationships? Signed, Spotting some trouble and totally puzzled by the way my brother struggles with his mubble fubbles.

Jordan Harbinger (36:26)

Oh, man, what a sad story. This is pretty intense. First of all, as you can tell, my heart aches for your brother. He's clearly troubled. He's going through some very painful stuff, and he's very hard to reach right now. I'd imagine it's pretty tough to be him, but my heart really aches for you and your mom. You obviously love him a lot, you want to help, and you're just hitting wall after wall while also learning some very disturbing stuff. You guys are in a really tough place. Once again, we wanted to talk to an expert about all this, so we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I am also known to the people who know me the best as the doctor, and we started by asking her this really big question you've posed. How do you help someone who just does not want to be helped? And Dr. Margolis was pretty honest with us. She said the short answer is, you don't, because you can't. Your question comes from a place of love and also of anxiety, wanting to exert some control over a situation that is out of control. But sadly, as much as we want to, we just cannot control other people, and the discomfort of that can be very overwhelming. Dr. Margolis actually shifted the question a little bit. She said that what you're actually probably contending with here is what you'd have to feel within you if you stopped trying to do the impossible, or at least tried to stop someone who in so many ways is saying, yeah, I don't want your help. I'm not ready to work on these things. Now I know how tough that is. You don't just want to ditch your brother. He's suffering. It's so hard. But you're also suffering by trying so hard to help someone who clearly does not want to take any advice. So Dr. Margolis's feeling was you might want to sit with that and just see what comes up. When you let go of the idea of trying to save your brother on your own, would you feel like a failure? Would you feel like you're not being a supportive brother? What does it mean to be a supportive brother? Would you feel like you're not holding up your family responsibility? Those questions might be the real work you need to do right now. As we talk about all the time, there's probably going to be some grief around your brother going through this period. Grief that you might, in fact, be staving off by working so hard to help him when he isn't ready to help himself. Dr. Margolis pointed out that if you let go, you'd probably have to grieve the possibility that your brother might continue to struggle and grieve the consequences of what that might look like, even if the consequences become severe. I really hope it doesn't come to that. I'm not saying you can't intervene if things get serious. Like, if he's gonna harm himself, maybe you have grounds to have him hospitalized. But you also have to understand that that would not be your fault. And even then, he'd still have to build on that support and make the lasting changes himself. And she says that knowing how difficult this is to do, how painful it is to watch someone you love suffer and not be able to do much for them. But to quote her here, sometimes trying so hard to control someone else's behavior, trying so hard to help when somebody isn't open enough to receive that help, that can sometimes be a distraction, a way for us to avoid dealing with our own feelings and ultimately finding some acceptance around what this person has chosen to do with their life.

Gabriel Mizrahi (39:16)

Oof. Yeah, just a. That's a banger of a Dr. Margolis quote right there. Now you're asking another great question. Also a Feedback Friday motif, which is where is the line between being supportive and enabling?

Jordan Harbinger (39:27)

Yeah. One of my favorites.

Gabriel Mizrahi (39:28)

Always confusing. Right? Dr. Margolis's take was, there's no hard and fast rule about this. Every situation is different. But based on what you've shared with us, she did feel that most of what you and your mom are doing for your brother these days, although it comes from a very good place, it does sound like enabling. For the simple reason that your brother basically doesn't have to do anything to change for your mom to continue taking care of him. Now, if your mom were like, okay, you can live here at home, but you have to go to therapy, you have to see a doctor, you got to get a job. You can't just stay in your room chatting with people online for hours about probably criminal activity that the police are now getting involved in. And if you don't do those things, here are the consequences, and I'm ready to stand by those consequences. That would not be enabling, but it sounds to me like she's given him a perpetual soft landing without really having to be accountable or change in any meaningful way.

Jordan Harbinger (40:18)

Right. That's less support and it's more of. It's coddling. Is that too strong a word? No, no, she's coddling.

Gabriel Mizrahi (40:23)

In a way, she is coddling him. But here's the thing. I'm sure that mom is going process parallel to our friend of wanting to love her son, wanting to stabilize him, not wanting to abandon him, probably freaking out that if she doesn't do things this way, he might hurt himself or end up in jail or whatever. And this seems like the only way to do it. But as a result, he's not really experiencing any consequences or healthy pressure. No consequences to neglecting his mental health or to engaging in this sketchy stuff online.

Jordan Harbinger (40:51)

I'm still so curious about that whole thing, but anyway, I'm just not sure what they're supposed to do about who the brother talks to online.

Gabriel Mizrahi (40:57)

I would hope that that experience with the police spooked enough to not engage with people like that on the Internet, but who knows?

Jordan Harbinger (41:03)

It doesn't sound like it. I mean, they're still talking.

Gabriel Mizrahi (41:05)

Just one more thing that they can't control in this situation. I mean, short of canceling their Vodafone service and stealing his iPhone or.

Jordan Harbinger (41:11)

Right. Not going to happen. It's an adult.

Gabriel Mizrahi (41:13)

Yeah. Which again, so hard to sit with that. On the flip side, though, I will say it does sound like he's hungry for connection and community and he's finding it with the wrong people. But in a way, that might be a good sign that he does want relationship.

Jordan Harbinger (41:25)

That's true. But I also wonder if this is part of why he's resisting therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi (41:29)

Oh, you mean because the last therapist had to report him?

Jordan Harbinger (41:31)

Yeah. We can't know for sure. I just wonder if maybe the brother doesn't trust therapists now after the last one called the cops. It's. Look, that's no excuse for not going, of course, but it might explain his resistance.

Gabriel Mizrahi (41:41)

Bottom line, we all feel that it's not your job alone to save your brother, to save your family. The best thing you can do is support your brother appropriately and support your mother while she goes through this.

Jordan Harbinger (41:50)

For sure. Yeah. This is her house. This is her son. She needs to find her own way with him. God, I feel bad for the guy she's dating. He wants to sort of become a father figure to this guy and can't do it. And she's just. He's just watching his girlfriend, his partner's kid, flush himself down the toilet.

Gabriel Mizrahi (42:04)

It's interesting. He's kind of handling the son better than anybody.

Jordan Harbinger (42:07)

Yeah, he's the only. Sorry. He's the only response, like, parent who's acting appropriately in this situation.

Gabriel Mizrahi (42:13)

But, you know, so much easier for him to.

Jordan Harbinger (42:15)

Well, it is easier.

Gabriel Mizrahi (42:16)

He doesn't have this lifetime of caring for this kid, of.

Jordan Harbinger (42:18)

He's not visualizing a little baby that mother had in his arms, which is what she's doing. He's like, you're a grown ass man. Get out of here and get a freaking job.

Gabriel Mizrahi (42:26)

Look, the best way to support everybody, everybody, is to just listen and be present and acknowledge what your mom is going through. You can validate how hard it is for her to know how to help your brother. And then maybe when the time is right, you can gently encourage her to consider some new approaches, maybe some new policies, maybe some new ways to balance this responsibility she feels for your brother with her responsibility to herself. And same with your brother, you know? I'm so sorry, bro. I know you're going through it. It hurts me to see you suffering like this. What is this like for you right now? I can't fix this for you. But if you want to talk this out. If you want to find some new ways forward, I am here for that.

Jordan Harbinger (43:00)

Exactly. He really does need to go back to basics here. As for your mom and her own well being, her own relationship, that's raising the stakes on all this. But it's interesting here, too. You might be taking on more than you should. Dr. Margolis said if you were her client, the question she'd be asking is, why is your mom's struggle your problem to solve? Where does that sense of responsibility come from? Look, I get caring about your mom. I get wanting her to be happy, to enjoy her relationship. I love that you want those things for her. It's super sweet, but again, I don't mean to repeat myself, but if those things matter to her, which I assume they do, then she has to learn how to prioritize them. How to make sure all of her relationships are aligned in a way that makes them possible and honors her own needs. I'm also wondering, where is dad in all this? You said your brother was living with him. Now it sounds like he's your mom's problem because dad kind of gave up. Maybe. I don't know if it's Dad's responsibility to solve either, but I'm just curious to know why all of this seems to fall on you guys anyway. We all get it. You want to help your family. Of course you want to see everyone happy. Of course you want to see them succeed. But you can't do this for your brother, and you can't do this for your mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi (44:03)

Yeah. That is the theme Dr. Mergle has kept coming back to. She actually shared a little gem she really likes with us. She said there's an important difference between caring about and caring on behalf of. Caring about. Looks like I really want my mom to be happy. I don't want her to compromise a relationship for my brother. I'm worried about her. I want the best for her. I'm here to listen and, you know, gently support up to a point. Caring on behalf of is different. That's. I want my brother to stop suffering. I want my mom to do what's best for her. So I'm going to get involved. I'm going to take on these feelings myself. I'm going to change my behavior to help other people manage their outcomes. Obviously, that second form of caring, that's when you get sucked into the suffering yourself. And I think it might potentially be part of an enmeshment in your family. And that is rarely, if ever, truly effective. So Dr. Margolis's general take is the answer you're looking for here is really just new boundaries, externally with your mom and brother, to know when and how and how much to help them, and also internally with yourself to keep an eye on this impulse to get overly involved. And all the templates and history and feelings that are informing that impulse, those internal boundaries, are probably the most important. That's the line that's going to help you go, okay, this is really sad. This is really distressing. I feel this urge to jump in and save everyone, but that's probably going to prolong the situation. It's going to cause me more suffering. So I'm going to recognize that urge, but I'm not going to act on it.

Jordan Harbinger (45:27)

But here's the good news. You're asking how do you do what's right even when it might be painful? Which tells me that you know that encouraging your mom to set some higher standards, drawing some boundaries, that's the right thing to do. And Dr. Margolis pointed out that it might in fact be the path to helping, even if it feels more passive, because then your brother might be motivated to get help. As Dr. Margolis put it, sometimes we have to shift our definition of what it means to help. Sometimes just listening, validating, being present with that person in their experience, sitting with them and making space for their pain is actually helping. It doesn't always feel productive, so we don't think of it as helpful. But sometimes it's the most helpful stance that you can take. I'm sorry you and your mom are going through this. My heart goes out to your brother. I hope he gets to a place where he's ready to seek out some help and really engage with it, sending you and your family a big hug and wishing you all the best. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach@draronmargolis.com speaking of dodgy online personalities trying to seduce you into their schemes. Now a word from our criminally generous sponsors. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. So when life throws you a curveball, who do you turn to? Your mom? Strangers on Reddit? Look, I love my friends, but while they may be good to vent and for some emotional support here and there, I'm looking for actual help. That's where a therapist is different. These are licensed, clinically trained professionals who know how to help you sort through the noise and actually move forward. I've done therapy myself. I could tell you it's not about lying on the couch and talk about your childhood for an hour. It's about having someone in your corner who's trained to listen, ask the right questions, help you work through stuff in a real structured way. That's what I like about BetterHelp. They've been doing this for over 10 years. They have more than 30,000 licensed therapists, the largest online therapy platform in the world. They've served over 5 million people globally. And with more than 1.7 million session reviews, they got a 4.9 out of 5 rating. The best part, they make the matching process easy. You fill out a quick questionnaire. They help pair you with someone who fits your needs. If the match isn't working out, you can switch therapists anytime, no extra cost. It's fully online, totally flexible, and you can pause your subscription whenever you want. Sessions are just a click away. You can literally fit therapy into your lunch break if you need to. So if you're ready to get some expert help, give BetterHelp a try.

Sponsor Voice (47:34)

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Jordan Harbinger (47:51)

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Jordan Harbinger (48:54)

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate and probably very good looking listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors, all of which you can find on the website@jordanharbinger.com deals. If that doesn't work, email us. We're happy to dig up codes for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi (49:19)

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I had an unconventional childhood. My parents split when I was 6 and the fallout impacted my family and me for many years. My mom, a talented artist, struggled with alcohol, work and relationships and still has a difficult relationship with money and work. My dad is an entrepreneur whose career was very chaotic when I was younger, but who ultimately succeeded and is a master at his craft. I remember feeling scared about money all the time and like I didn't have a safe home or even a safe person to talk to.

Jordan Harbinger (49:50)

Yeah, that's tough. I'm sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi (49:52)

When I was younger, I dreamed of starting my own business and I thought I would write books, so I studied creative writing, but I haven't ever really felt able to commit. I met my ex when I was 18 and he was 20 and I took it on myself to steer the ship, making decisions about where we would live and always trying to get a good job to steady us. I was floundering though and struggled with my mental health in my 20s right up to last year. Then my 17 year relationship, which felt like the only achievement in my life, broke down last year. Since then, I've been rebuilding my mental, emotional and physical health.

Jordan Harbinger (50:26)

Health.

Gabriel Mizrahi (50:27)

I've spent many years in therapy. I feel worlds away from the traumatized person I once was and now I think I'm really ready to work on this. I'm seeing an amazing new partner, I started a new job and I'm doing so much better than I was. But I can't avoid the fact that my career never really took off and at 37 the stakes feel incredibly high. To now get this right, I've had over 30 jobs in my life. I freelanced, blogged, worked in marketing, hospitality and higher education and have a BA and an MA in Creative Writing, I've gone fairly wide, but not deep. My current role blends a lot of my skills in an industry I feel passionate about and I'm enjoying managing more people than before. But I worry about the long term trajectory of this line of work, whether it's lucrative, work, life balance, whether jobs are plentiful. It's work that I'm passionate about, but it can be stressful and there's a lot of churn. After feeling unfulfilled in my last workplace, I'm still grappling with so much self doubt and any setbacks can have me questioning this role and where it's taking me. I desperately wish I had a steady, stable, fulfilling role that felt like it was building on what I've done before towards something meaningful. I see people who are older than me, who are confident, self assured and financially secure. I also see people who are struggling in what should be their golden years and this fills me with dread. When I'm 70, I would like to be able to talk about the work I've done with pride. I would like to spend the rest of my working life deepening skills, experience and expertise. I would also like to be financially independent and secure and responsible with money. There's also so much I want to do aside from work. I'd like to write books, grow a garden, continue to nurture my relationships, learn languages, travel. In short, I would like to thrive. But how can I do these things without the money and security that a steady career would bring? How do I choose a career? And what if I make a bad choice? How do I forgive myself for not resolving this issue sooner? And how do I stop the shame and fear that I feel around this from impacting my progress, my new relationship and all my relationships, including the one with myself, signed, moving my career along when all I do is prolong because I'm still embarrassed that it took me this long.

Jordan Harbinger (52:41)

First of all, thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us. I gotta say, your grasp of what led you here, your childhood, your needs, these decisions, this urgency, the shame, all of it. It's really impressive. I can hear that you've done a lot of work. I know that you feel like you're behind, but we're all dealing with different challenges. We all need to go through our own process to get where we're going, even if it takes longer than we'd like. So I know it's trite, but as much as possible, I would trust that you're exactly where you're supposed to be. And anyway, even if you can't. That's the only place you can begin. So might as well accept and forgive yourself so you can focus. So my first thought is, I know this childhood did a number on you. The traumas and templates that get created when we're young, they can be pretty hard to shake. The fear you describe is pretty real. Obviously, I'm sorry you didn't feel safe. I'm sure that's playing a big role in all this, But I want to share a couple things with you. First, the traumas and patterns, they can be healed. They can be rewritten. There might not be a day where you feel completely free of them, but you do not have to be held back by them in the same way forever. And second, this one's a little more controversial, but whatever Here Goes shows it's really important to have a good handle on your story. It's also important to not hold onto it too strongly, to not allow yourself to be defined by it. In other words, to not move through the world with this dominant narrative of, like, my mom was like this and my dad was like that. So these are the only ways I have of managing my life, and these are the only two opportunities available to me. You know, we're big fans of getting to the roots of things, but you gotta walk that line. The second thing I want to talk about is this theme of commitment, of feeling confident enough to go, okay, this is what I want. I'm ready. I'm going for it. It. Look, I totally get wanting to feel ready to make the leap and choose a path that you stick with, especially at this stage where the stakes feel higher, you have less time to play around. But I also wonder if wanting to feel able to commit before you really explore something, if that might be just one more way to avoid having to commit. Like, I'll commit when I feel ready to commit. And then you wait and you wait for that feeling, but it just never fully comes because in reality, this is my experience anyway. A lot of the feeling of being able to commit comes from, you know, actually committing, right? It's in the doing that we find our. Our life force and our conviction, right? Our excitement, the feeling that we're on the right path. It's hard to feel that in advance, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi (54:49)

Are we ever truly ready for anything? I mean, at a certain point, you just gotta decide to jump in and learn as you go and deal with the highs and lows. Which also means risking feeling frustrated, being challenged, being scared, being confused, all of the things that come with picking something and Sticking with it. So. So I also wonder if waiting to feel ready to commit might also be a way to avoid those feelings.

Jordan Harbinger (55:12)

Yeah, man, 100%. That would be another thing to keep an eye on, not inadvertently creating yet another obstacle by waiting for a time when you just magically feel totally ready. I'm also interested in what came up in your relationship, although I'm not sure exactly how that played a role. I just find it interesting that you were the steady, responsible one in that relationship, even though you were struggling yourself. And it sounds like you kept you and your partner stable. That was really important to you. To be fair, I think we'd need to know so much more to understand what to make of that. And it's not exactly what you're writing in about.

Gabriel Mizrahi (55:42)

It's not. But also, maybe it is.

Jordan Harbinger (55:44)

Yeah, maybe it is. I mean, look, I do hear some glimmers of your childhood in that relationship, but I. Look, I'm sure she's taking care of all that in therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi (55:51)

The other interesting detail in her letter is this thing about how any setback can have her questioning her role and where it's taking her. When I hold that alongside that thing we just talked about, how waiting to feel ready to commit might have been a way to avoid being in touch with certain feelings. Feelings. Feelings, by the way, engendered by certain wounds, I would imagine. I also wonder if maybe adversity is a little hard for her sometimes. You know, when things are humming along, she's okay, she's good. When she hits a roadblock, though, it might bring up some difficult thoughts, like, why am I even doing this? You know, where is it taking me? Is this really my path?

Jordan Harbinger (56:25)

Those might be legitimate questions, though, right? Maybe this isn't her path. Maybe when things get hard, she realizes she's struggling with something she just doesn't truly care about.

Gabriel Mizrahi (56:33)

Could totally be the case. It could also be the case that those thoughts are a way to flee the feeling of struggling in general, and she would find a version of that struggle in anything she does.

Jordan Harbinger (56:45)

Yeah, that's a good point. So, like, instead of going, man, things are hard right now. This is part of the process. Let me work through it. Her brain might be going, man, things are hard right now. This can't possibly be my path. I need to make a change, and then I won't have to deal with this feeling.

Gabriel Mizrahi (56:56)

Exactly. The tricky thing is that it might be both. She might, in fact, be in the wrong career for her, and she might struggle to stay connected to her work and maintain her confidence when she's challenged, as so many of us do, me included, that is something she's going to have to parse for herself. You know, when is it an authentic voice telling her, okay, it's time to make a change? And when is it a form of denial or avoidance?

Jordan Harbinger (57:18)

You're also touching on something else I want her to know, which is that her true path. Right. Another job, writing, learning languages, even gardening. That's. It's not going to solve this problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi (57:26)

No, it is not. Good point. And in fact, pursuing something you truly care about, take it from me, I've done it. And we've talked about this on the show, it can sometimes make these setbacks feel even worse.

Jordan Harbinger (57:35)

Yeah, right. Because it's not just some job you're doing to survive. It's your love, it's your calling. It's not entirely healthy, but we do tend to identify with this kind of work even more. Right. I'm a podcaster. I'm not a guy who works as a barista and then also does all these other things that I care about more. Right. So it's part of my identity. I'm not. Look, I'm not trying to stress you out further. I just don't want you to pin all your hopes of never feeling self doubt or confusion or anxiety or demoralization on the perfect job, because no job can give you that. I'll tell you, man, what, when I started doing podcasting as a job, it was awesome. And it still is. But you know what? It's also a job. There's a lot of stuff I do and I go, I don't like this part of the thing that I have to do. It just happens. Yeah. And it's never going to go away. And it's actually like part of the whole thing that makes the other stuff that's good feel good. But that's a different subject. This is more about continuing to do the great work you're doing while you work through the dips and challenges of your career, using your job to shine a light on those parts of your personality that are being exposed when things get to tough. So my question for you there is, what is it specifically about these setbacks that are throwing you for a loop? Is it that they make you go, screw this. Why am I putting up with this for something I don't even care about? Or is it that they make you go, the feeling of struggling or being blocked feels so bad, I just want out. So let me try to answer your questions directly here. It's hard to make art and garden and learn fricking Italian or whatever and travel without some degree of money and security. So if all these things are calling to you, you're gonna have to get your career in order. Okay. Also, you don't need to pursue all of them to be happy. And actually this is just occurring to me. I wonder if wanting to do so many different things, and not only wanting to do them, but thrive, which is great, a little abstract, if maybe that's another version of the whole I'll commit when I feel like I'm ready to commit thing. Yes, another way to make it hard to commit because there are so many things you want to do and that's paralyzing for anybody, even somebody who's already got every, you know, all their security BL or whatever together. I'm not saying you can't enjoy all these things if you really want to, but the reality is you can't work a full time job and learn Portuguese and garden and write the great American novel and travel the world as a digital nomad or whatever the hell your dreams are. Super exciting. I love that you want to explore all these things, but practically speaking, you can only do one thing at a time. At least well enough to really enjoy it. Okay? So if this desire to do all these things is keeping you stuck, stuck. It's time to find a new relationship with them. Prune your list.

Gabriel Mizrahi (60:03)

See what I did there? A little gardening humor for a good one, Papa.

Jordan Harbinger (60:06)

Yeah. Thank you. Just choose one thing for now. Hit pause on all the hobbies and put most of your energy into the job search. As for choosing a career, the best thing you could do right now. Well, is two things. First, pay attention to the parts of jobs that you've had in the past. You've had what, 30? Pay attention to the parts that you actually liked that lit you up. Get clear on which responsibilities and experiences and problems you genuinely enjoyed being a part of of. Second, start talking to as many people as possible. Make the conversations fact finding missions, brainstorming sessions. Involve other people in your search. 6 Minute Networking Course Talks about reaching out to people, getting, you know, informational interviews. 6minutenetworking.com. It's a free course, no shenanigans. Dive into that stuff. You can binge it. People are going to be your best portal to new opportunities. Having a North Star, that is great. So you're not just throwing darts in every direction. But there's also some value in being open and curious about other things. And the second part of your question, what if I make A bad choice. Well, if you invest in yourself and you really consider this decision, you probably can't make a terrible choice. And if you choose a job that isn't ultimately for you, you make a change. That's okay. People do it all the time. But I think that question is also meaningful in context. You're putting enormous pressure on yourself to get this right. I appreciate the stakes, but this can be very paralyzing if you're hoping to get into a career you can do for the next 30 years. This is going to be nerve wracking.

Gabriel Mizrahi (61:28)

Yeah, it's a good point. There might be a glimmer of that fantasy we were just talking about in this idea too. Like if she can just make the right choice, then she won't have to deal with being dissatisfied or restless or confused or having to go through this chapter again where she's reconsidering things. But the reality is that you probably will no matter which path you choose. And that might reduce the pressure on making the perfect choice, whatever the perfect choice may means.

Jordan Harbinger (61:51)

As for forgiving yourself for not resolving the issue sooner, I don't have a quick fix here. We all beat ourselves up for various things we did, various things we didn't do. Welcome. Your midlife crisis is starting early. Look, you're ahead of the game. I think forgiveness gets easier when you're working on the issue honestly, when you're in a process. Because then those quote unquote mistakes, they just start to feel like necessary stepping stones on the way to your true path. They are the path. And then you can have more compassion for yourself. But look, if you can't forgive yourself, at least try to accept yourself. Self forgiveness is really tricky. I find that I go in and out of it as well. But acceptance, hey, that I can do acceptance, that just means, okay, this is where I am right now. This is what I'm working with. That might actually be all you need. So my overall thought for you is the shame you feel, the fear you feel. These layers of self consciousness, they're perfectly normal. And you need to let go of the idea that you need to fix them or you need to stop them before you can act. Nobody's totally free from fear and shame, dude. They act anyway. They build up their capacity to feel those feelings and still make choices. That's it. That's the big secret. So I hope that gives you some new ways to move through this transition. Analysis is part of it for sure. But don't let your analysis delay you even further. You'll learn far more about yourself by taking action and playing and exploring, knowing there's no such thing as a perfect choice that will help you avoid any setbacks or confusion going forward. Process over destination. That's the name of the game sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Chris Dalby on Crime and Sports if you haven't done so yet. Show notes and transcripts on the website. But you know what else is on the website? Advertisers, discounts and ways to support the show, namely@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram. Abriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian B. Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And big thanks to the Social Hub for hosting us today. You can learn more about the Social Hub and check out their locations around the world. World at TheSocialHub Co Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if the next 20 years bring more change than the last 200 and we're not remotely ready for it? Jamie Metzl joins me to unpack the mind blowing collision of AI, biotech and genetics that's already reshaping what it means to be human.

Jamie Metzl (64:45)

If you look at all of the scientific progress of the last hundred years and you compare that to the hundred years before that and 100 years before that, we see this rapid acceleration because these systems are so complex, we need a language and understanding, the language of biology which already exists. For us to understand it, we need these capabilities and AI with all these other technologies will be that. And as we as humans and as our machines learn more about how to learn more learning becomes possible. Acceleration begets acceleration. If we think this is a conversation about technology we're going to get lost. This is a conversation about humanity and it's a conversation about values. It's about who are we as we guide these revolutions. But humans have co evolved with our technologies for thousands of years and more likely tens of thousands of years. So it's not us versus our technology, our technology is us. And the question is what's the best way for us to co evolve in a healthy sustainable way. But we need to know what we're trying to achieve. Every single person has a role in deciding how these technologies are used or not used as individuals and as a community and that needs to guide us going forward. This is about all of our future.

Jordan Harbinger (66:13)

To hear more about the breakthroughs coming faster than we can comprehend and why we urgently need to figure out how to steer the ship, Check out episode 1014 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.