1211: Conspiracy Theories | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1211: "Conspiracy Theories | Skeptical Sunday"

Date: September 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This Feedback Friday edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show features Jordan Harbinger, Jen Harbinger (producer), and co-host Gabriel Mizrahi sharing updates on life, listener stories, audience interactions, and dispensing advice on challenging listener questions. The episode mixes travel anecdotes, reflections on relationships, and listener dilemmas—ranging from career setbacks to traumatic family experiences and social commentary. The signature tone is warm, candid, and lightly irreverent, blending humor and empathy.

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Table of Contents

• Opening Banter and German Adventures (01:16–23:20)
• Listener Questions and Advice:
  • Broken Promotion Promises in Nursing (24:43–34:20)
  • Friendship and Romantic Boundaries (34:21–47:03)
  • Family Recovery After Trauma (47:54–64:52)
  • Listener Gripes: Oversharing/Humblebrags & Social Justice (71:46–83:16)
• Reflection: Spontaneity and Planning (68:35–71:44)
• Community and Wrap-Up (71:23 to End)

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I. Opening Banter and German Adventures (01:16–23:20)

1. Lighthearted Banter and European Experiences

• The crew jokes about the word “apothecary” and German pharmacy culture—“Apotheke”—with witty, self-effacing chit-chat.
• Gabriel discusses his rejuvenating, loosely planned central European road trip, praising the spontaneity:

  "Every morning, I would book the hotel for that night or the Airbnb for that night. And I just knew I wanted to end up in Munich. But aside from that, I was kind of open to whatever came up along the way, so it was amazing." (06:22)

Memorable Quotes:

• "I'm just slandering them—Feedback Friday menagerie." —Gabriel (16:23)
• "If Wedding Cake were a city, it would be Vienna." —Gabriel (21:13)

2. Reflections on Germany’s Past

• Jen shares vivid recollections of post-reunification East Germany, from mistrust and Stasi files to cultural habits.
• Discussion of differences between East and West, and cautious attitudes toward learning English and Russian.

Notable Moment:

• Jen on Stasi files:

  “You’d find out that, like, your wife was spying on you...and you'd have to emotionally deal with this right now.” (08:09)

3. Audience Connections

• Gabriel, Jen, and Jordan share heartfelt, humorous stories about meeting listeners worldwide, emphasizing the tight-knit listener community.
• Jordan encourages fans not to be shy when spotting him out and about:

  “Please, even if I’m wearing my headphones...tell me that you know about the show. Because it always makes my day.” (19:23)

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II. Listener Questions and Advice

A. Broken Promotion Promises in Nursing (24:43–34:20)

Context: A registered nurse returns to work, lands a school position, is promised a big promotion if she gains her Bachelor’s, but after enrolling in a “grueling” program, learns the job was given to someone else.

Key Discussion Points

• Jordan and Jen express clear empathy for the listener’s frustration after being strung along:

  “The stakes were super high—between the money and the benefits and the reward for all of this hard work...you had pretty good reason to be excited.” —Jordan (27:06)

• They urge her to grieve and process her anger, but highlight the importance of adapting, recovering, and staying open to new opportunities:

  “The more you allow yourself to grieve and accept, the more you open yourself up to an unexpected timeline—the more quickly you get to the part where you go, man, that really sucked, but...I ended up somewhere way better.” —Jordan (29:13)

• Jordan raises a tough-love question: Did the listener’s delay in signing up signal a lack of motivation, possibly affecting her boss’s decision?

  “Part of me is going: did your boss get frustrated with the timeline and then choose someone else?” (30:10)

• Ultimately, they encourage her to finish her degree—which will serve her regardless.

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B. Friendship and Romantic Boundaries (34:21–47:03)

Context: A female listener dates a man her friend “Jess” once unsuccessfully asked out a year prior. Jess reacts with hurt and guilt-tripping.

Key Discussion Points

• The team unanimously agrees Jess’s reaction is disproportionate and not rooted in healthy boundaries:

  "She asked him out over a year ago...To assume the guy's off-limits is absurd. Selfish and absurd...If they were in a relationship and they dated...that would be one thing. This is not that at all." —Jordan (38:46)

• They discuss the etiquette of notifying friends about romantic interests, suggesting a heads-up is thoughtful, but that mature adults should move on.
• Gabe offers psychological insights:

  “When rejection gets refracted through that prism [of wounds and insecurities], it can put someone in touch with inadequacy, shame, low self-worth... sometimes they feel almost fatal.” (43:30)

• Advice: The listener didn’t “mess up”—but can learn to lean into hard conversations instead of avoiding them.

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C. Family Recovery After Trauma (47:54–64:52)

Context: A mother flees Uganda to Canada with her daughters after learning they were abused by a school principal; facing financial, legal, and emotional hardship, she asks for direction.

Key Discussion Points

• The hosts react with compassion and horror at the extent of abuse and betrayal.

  “It’s one of the worst things I can imagine learning as a parent.” —Jen (48:52)

• Jordan and Jen emphasize the dual task she faces: fighting for her children’s safety, healing, and basic needs, but also surrendering to the ongoing, long-term nature of trauma recovery.
• Practical advice:
  • Build relationships in the new community (“Win those people over—your neighbor, church, support group...”) (54:05)
  • Leverage storytelling ability for advocacy, justice, and finding resources.
• Justice: Suggest reaching out to legal aid, nonprofits, and journalists for accountability in Uganda, but prioritize urgent needs (income, housing) and her children’s stability.
• Healing: Recognize the journey may not be linear, and self-forgiveness must come with time—surrendering doesn’t mean giving up.

Memorable Moment:

• “Surrendering does not mean giving up. There’s a difference... You have to give yourself over to these feelings without trying to change them too much.” —Gabriel (62:51)

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D. Listener Gripes: Oversharing, Humblebrags & Social Justice at Every Turn (71:46–83:16)

Context: A listener complains about excessive details and “social justice” topics in letters/readings, suggesting some share irrelevant info or use identity as a humblebrag. She’s also annoyed at pressure for “performative” identity—revealed at end to be a gay woman herself.

Key Discussion Points

• The team debates whether personal context or details in letters (“my neurodivergent child,” “my amazing spouse”) are self-indulgent or essential.

  “If someone’s like, my amazing husband is great in all these ways, our marriage has been incredible, but I think he might be cheating—I actually think that is super relevant.” —Jordan (75:20)

• They agree that personal details enrich stories, provide necessary context, foster connection—even if not always “practical.”
• On social justice topics:

  “What I don't think is cool, and I think I'm on her side on this, is people lecturing you about what your relationship with this stuff should be, how vocal you should be...That’s up to you.” —Jordan (79:35)

• They suggest cherishing individual boundaries regarding when, how, and if social issues enter private life, but also encourage openness to nuance and others’ ways of expressing identity.

Notable Quotes:

• “We can only empathize with other people to the extent that we relate to ourselves.” —Jordan (82:26)

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III. Reflection: Spontaneity and Planning (68:35–71:44)

Gabriel’s Recommendation of the Week:

• Embracing minimal planning when traveling or making decisions; book one thing and let the rest fall in place.
• This mindset generalizes to creative projects and life, fostering adaptability and anticipation.

  “You don't have to do the other 10 [steps], you can just do them as you go.” (69:39)

• Jordan notes the importance of increasing one's comfort with uncertainty, which yields positive outcomes and growth.

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IV. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Listener Community:
  “The Feedback Friday bond runs very deep. Much deeper even than I knew.” —Gabriel, 24:18
• On Past Trauma:
  “There are some stories that are just so awful, so painful, there are no good words.” —Jordan, 51:43
• On Difficult Decisions:
  “Being upset is just part of this process... When you’re ready, you zoom out—and you’ll be amazed at what you find.” —Jordan, 29:28
• On Identity Context:
  “Just look at our friend here’s letter. We thought she was one kind of person...and then she tells us she’s gay. It makes her questions so much more interesting.” —Gabriel, 76:36

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V. Community, Resources, and Wrap-Up

• Listeners encouraged to join the show’s subreddit for deeper conversations and polite debates.
• The show’s ongoing focus remains on practical, compassionate, actionable advice—whether navigating trauma or everyday frustrations.

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Key Takeaway

Empathy, nuance, and adaptability are central. Deep context isn't self-indulgence—it's core to understanding and relating to others. In hardship, progress requires both courage and surrender. And life's best experiences may come from loosening plans and embracing uncertainty.

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End of summary. Timestamps provided correspond to transcript timepoints for each segment or quote.

Transcript

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday.

[Jen Harbinger]

Producer, the Apothecary, helping me concoct these.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Mysterious potions of life wisdom. Gabriel Mizrahi.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I love that word apothecary. Such a good word.

[Jen Harbinger]

First of all, it sounds so, like, medieval.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jen Harbinger]

It gives me Shakespeare vibes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And it's, you know, what they call pharmacies here in Germany, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, that's right. Apotheke.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's probably a really old word.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Apotheke.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

How funny is that? Every time I pass one, I'm like, what tinctures and poultices are you guys cooking up in here? But really, it's just the CVS of Germany.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It sounds so much cooler.

[Jen Harbinger]

Imagine, I mean, in the States, if.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You'Re like, I'm running to the apothecary, bro.

[Jen Harbinger]

Need anything?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Band aids? Gatorade?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Something to poison yourself if you cannot be with your one true love.

[Jen Harbinger]

Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Give me two Elizabethan tinctures and some.

[Jen Harbinger]

Icy Hot and, oh, a bunion wrap, please.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What is that? Wow, you really are. If anybody had any doubts that you.

[Jen Harbinger]

Were really in Europe, there it is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You heard that? The siren.

[Jen Harbinger]

The World War II era siren.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's the soundtrack I sleep to every night. I don't know why, but especially on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights, the sirens all night long in my neighborhood. And I wonder what they're dealing with. Like, I live in, like a. Not a bad neighborhood, but it's a little mixed company in the midst of gentrifying, I would say. Yeah, mixed code. Yeah. So are they just driving to overdoses and bar fights? I don't know what's happening.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah. Overdose is probably primarily injuries.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe they're responding to, like, various luften injuries. Are you familiar?

[Jen Harbinger]

Luften, I mean, it means like winds.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or breezy or airs maybe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's basically the practice of leaving your windows open so that you get a nice draft in the apartment or in the house.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's gotta be like a West German thing, you think? I don't feel like we had that in East Germany.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, but then again, I lived in a house.

[Jen Harbinger]

I didn't live in an apartment, so.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Did you guys not have windows in East Germany?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, you're trying to keep out the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Lead acetate from the chemical factory adjacent to the neighborhood. No, of course.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I don't remember it being specifically a thing. You know what, though? Actually, now that you mention it, my.

[Jen Harbinger]

Host mother, she did open the window. You know how they have those slanty windows that open at the top? She would do that in the morning.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it's a good idea. Cause, you know, you got a teenager sleeping in a bedroom, that bedroom stinks.

[Jen Harbinger]

In the morning, period.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It seems like a good policy wherever you live, but the Germans have really elevated Lufton to like, a life philosophy. And actually, one of my friends was telling me that the landlords write it into the rental agreements like they require the tenants to open the windows.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, probably keeps the mold at bay.

[Jen Harbinger]

If you've got fresh air.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's a mold thing.

[Jen Harbinger]

Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's exactly it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. No one cares. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's best.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Why do we always get onto windows at the top of the show?

[Jen Harbinger]

It's not me doing it. I'm not.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's not.

[Jen Harbinger]

Not really me doing it. I'm just gonna.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just gonna throw that out there. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own.

[Jen Harbinger]

Life and those around you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form.

[Jen Harbinger]

Conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Astronauts, investigative journalists, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This week we had Dr. Mike Isratel back on the show, PhD in exercise science. Super popular YouTuber. This time we talked about roid rage, GLP1 drugs, associated health and fitness topics.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like what AI and future drugs are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Going to do to and for our bodies. He's irreverent, a little bit controversial as usual. We had a lot of fun on Fridays though. We share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and indulge weird asides about Germany's specific rental agreements. Apparently, Gabe, you seem totally exhausted, but on the other hand, weirdly glowing, rejuvenated in some way. Hello there, it's producer Jason here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just a quick note.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you'd like to skip to this week's first question and miss out Jordan.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And Gabe's story here, you can do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So by skipping to 23 minutes and 20 seconds. Now, enjoy the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am so tired, my dude. Yeah, well, I'm so depleted it's not even funny. But I had the best couple of weeks I've had in a very long time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did you get some new cashew butter.

[Jen Harbinger]

Based face cream from the Appleteca or is this just. Is the road trip through central Europe what did it to you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Definitely the road trip. It was one of the best things I've ever done.

[Jen Harbinger]

I texted you because I was like, I want to be in a car pulling into Prague right now. As I was like in the dental chair getting a cleaning.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Although that I know you would rather you wanted to switch places with me actually.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh my God, which one would I rather do? What a conundrum.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like you're pulling into Prague to get a croissant and some coffee and I'm.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, I wish I was there. And I'm like, I have somebody scraping plaque off of my animal incisors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And you're like, ah, gels.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Cut to me at a palace in Prague Googling a local dentist.

[Jen Harbinger]

That is your happy place.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

One of my favorite things. That's right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For those who don't know, is it fair to say one of your favorite.

[Jen Harbinger]

Things is getting your teeth cleaned? Is that fair?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. I look forward to it. In fact, I just rescheduled my appointment for when I'm coming back to the States for three weeks so I can do it while I'm in la because I haven't been able to do it here.

[Jen Harbinger]

Oh my gosh.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anyway, yes, you texted me with your FOMO and I understood it.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was so cool, man. I just rented a car and I did it. It was just so spontaneous and it just came together in the best way And I just. I didn't even plan anything. I just put one foot in front of the other. No fixed plan. Looked at the map in the morning. Every morning, I would book the hotel for that night or the Airbnb for that night. And I just knew I wanted to end up in Munich. But aside from that, I was kind of open to whatever came up along the way, so it was amazing. First stop was Leipzig. Saw the epic Battle of the nations monument there. I don't know if you've ever seen that.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, so I actually, when I was an exchange student, I went to high school in Halle, which is, like, adjacent to the world, so they call it Halle Leipzig. It's kind of like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, it's one of those things that.

[Jen Harbinger]

Is two cities, but they're so close together and that they're starting to bleed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Into each other almost.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's like a metro area.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was thinking about you because I saw it on all the street signs, and I was wondering how close it was. Yeah. Now I understand the East Germany thing that you've been talking about for so long.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Even though integration has happened, has been happening for decades. It really does feel like another universe. It's so different.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Look, it's been 35 years or something.

[Jen Harbinger]

Since reunification, which is. Imagine a person who was born then is now 35, has their own kids.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But when I was there, it was.

[Jen Harbinger]

The 90s, and it was kind of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, for somebody who was, let's say.

[Jen Harbinger]

40, it was kind of like, yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A few years ago, this was a.

[Jen Harbinger]

Communist country that had secret police so that you would get shot if you tried to leave illegally.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wild.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, like, all my teachers and stuff were kind of like, I guess we're like a free country now.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, it was almost like they didn't even. Almost believe it, really. And I remember talking with people. This is a whole show. But I remember talking with my host father and being like, so did you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ever look at your Stasi file?

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, your secret police file? And he's like, nah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can you access this?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can, but they have counselors upstairs.

[Jen Harbinger]

In the same building.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because you'd go in and you'd be like, I want to see my Stasi file.

[Jen Harbinger]

And you'd find out that, like, your wife was spying on you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, wow.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'd be like, oh, I need to, like, emotionally deal with this right now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Damn. So some people just didn't even want to look at the file.

[Jen Harbinger]

No. Because imagine, like, you had a hunch that your kids were spying on you, and you have a good relationship with them now. And you're like, do I want to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, know that my kids were rolling.

[Jen Harbinger]

Over on me or my wife or my best friend was, and the reason he did it was because they had.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some dirt on him and he was screwing my wife. Like, you don't want to stir the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Pot because now you're like, that regime is over and nobody's going to get shot for being a collaborator. Let's let sleeping dogs lie. A lot of people had that mentality.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, we have German listeners.

[Jen Harbinger]

I would love to hear their perspective in my email about this. Actually, I find it endlessly fascinating driving through.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Obviously, I couldn't feel that kind of stuff, but you definitely feel the influence of that East German planning. Like, the cities are not designed for cars. And driving in Leipzig was a nightmare. It was so stressful.

[Jen Harbinger]

Leipzig is an old city, which, I.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don'T know, was it completely flattened during World War II? Probably.

[Jen Harbinger]

So the Soviets were just like, hey, let's build this. There's only going to be 100 cars in the whole city for officials, so we don't really need, like, major roads or anything.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That was my son's. Yeah, it was really designed for bicycles. Everyone's biking, but when you're driving, you're, like, sandwiched in between cars and then also driving alongside the tram and having to figure out when to drive and when to cross the track so you don't get hit by a tram.

[Jen Harbinger]

Right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was very intense. Oh, this just reminded me I had such a funny conversation in Weimar. Have you ever been to this town called Weimar?

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, I mean, it was like an old capital, I believe, of Germany. Really old, wasn't it?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's in between Leipzig and Nuremberg, and as far as I know, it's only famous for being the home of Goethe for a time and also being the birthplace of the constitution for the Weimar Repub, which I happen to love.

[Jen Harbinger]

I take it back. Weimar, by the way, was not the capital of Germany.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's the temporary meeting place for the.

[Jen Harbinger]

National assembly after World War I.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, that makes more sense.

[Jen Harbinger]

Since there was a civil war and unrest, they didn't convene in Berlin. It was too unstable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, interesting.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, didn't know that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I pulled into Weimar because there was a little pit stop on the way to Nuremberg and I had the car. And as you know, it's kind of a nightmare to park in a lot of these cities. And so I pull into this real vampirey town. I mean, beautiful, but just, you know, there might be vampires in this town. And it's all cobblestone, and there's a beautiful church and cute little shops. Like, the main part of town is maybe two or three blocks, and I find the one parking spot in this town. I got really excited.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know, man.

[Jen Harbinger]

You and parking spots in other cities, never really a good idea.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That was on my mind while I parked. And I'm glad you brought that up, because I was like, is this going to happen? I've got to read the signs very carefully. I took a picture of all the signs when I parked and put them into chatgpt to make sure that I was understanding them correctly because I didn't need a repeat of what happened in Portugal. So I pull into this spot, and I had to pee so badly. Like, I was like, I can't wait to run into the nearest restaurant. Just use the bathroom. I park, but I'm like, well, I don't know if the parking is okay. And I can't find the parking sign on this block. So just at that moment, a woman and her daughter were passing by, walking their bicycles down the sidewalk. And I asked them, sorry, excuse me, do you speak English? Yes, of course. And I was like, oh, cool. Is it okay to park here? And they looked at me very somberly like, no, no. And I was like, oh, okay. And they're like, this is for. I'm not going to attempt to do the dialect so as to not alienate our European fans. But they were like, no, this is for residents only. And I was like, cool. And I start nodding, like, doing the math in my head, like, am I really going to keep driving around looking for a spot, or am I going to risk it because I have to pee so badly? And then I was like, okay, how would I have known that? Because I can't find the sign. And they're like, well, there's a sign at the other end of the block. Whatever. They explain. And I'm like. And then without my asking, the mother goes, okay, here's what you have to do. And she starts giving me directions, like, the most detailed. Go 400 meters this way. Make your first right. Make your first left. Go another 200 meters. You're going to find a park. Make a left. And when you get to the. And she turns to her daughter and goes, schloss. How do you say schloss? And she goes, castle. And she's like, yeah, yeah, at the castle, make a left. And I just. I had to fight down laughter because I was like, these are the most European directions I have ever had. You Would never have that conversation in the States. If someone were giving you directions, they'd be like, go down a couple blocks that way. Make a right at the Burger King. When you get to the guy doing fentanyl under the bridge, he's always there. Make a left. Those are our landmarks. It was just. And the daughter looked at me, and she could see that I was about to laugh. And then she started almost laughing, and we were both trying not to laugh while her mom is still going on about the directions. And finally she ends and she's like, and then there will be free parking. I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To be fair to mom, 100 meters.

[Jen Harbinger]

Is not really 100 meters. That just means one block.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it's not that bad for people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Who are like 100 meters. Oh, my God, that's 300ft.

[Jen Harbinger]

Shoot, how long is that? It doesn't matter. It's just the block.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Those are fair directions. But you're right, Germans can give very.

[Jen Harbinger]

Precise directions for their own neighborhood. Like, they will be like, I remember my host father would be like, avoid the pothole where the drain sticks up by turning right. I'm like, people know that, dad. You know, like, they're not gonna just like, bottom out the car on the cobblestone street because they don't know to turn around the drain.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I just like these hyper specific landmarks that people are choosing. But yeah, at the end of it, I was like, thank you for the most German directions I've ever received in my entire life. And they both started laughing and just went on their way. And I did not move the car. I left it there, ran into the cafe. Of course, the woman who owned the cafe got kind of mad at me. And then I ordered a coffee, of course, just to make it okay.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then I ran back to my car, and everyone was looking at me like, did you really leave the car? We heard the whole conversation with the mom.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's another thing that's changed about East.

[Jen Harbinger]

Germany, though, dude, is if you had said, I ran into Americans once or twice during my year there. And I remember they were like, oh, my God, no one speaks English. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's the big lie.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Everyone in Germany speaks English. No, no, no, no, darling.

[Jen Harbinger]

Everyone in West Germany spoke English in the 90s.

[Jordan Harbinger]

East Germany spoke German, maybe Russian, if they were, like, a good student, but that's it. Their Russian was like our Spanish, where you're like, I'll donde esta el banyo?

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, that was it. And they didn't like Russians because they were occupiers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it was like, yeah, we speak.

[Jen Harbinger]

Russian because they make us learn it in school, but we secretly hate it, a lot of us. And so the fact that, quote unquote, everyone would speak English and they would.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Say, of course we speak English.

[Jen Harbinger]

That never happened to me one single time when I was in East Germany. Never.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That makes sense. Most people spoke at least some English, but much less than in Berlin, of course. Anyway, after that, I went to Nuremberg, which was stunning, and I don't have enough time to talk about it, but.

[Jen Harbinger]

My God, cool Nazi stuff there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know that's a controversial take.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, I mean, that's why I went. I wanted to go to the courthouse where they did the trials, and I wanted to go to the. What do they call it, the rally grounds, where they had all the meetings and stuff.

[Jen Harbinger]

I should say anti Nazi stuff, not cool Nazi stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Cool Nazi related stuff. Correct. 100% clear, folks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I'm glad you set the record straight. Just in case anyone listening is wondering if we're secret Nazis.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jordan thinks Nazis are cool. I knew it was more than just a haircut.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You did that to yourself, bro.

[Jen Harbinger]

Technically, my barber did it, but yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I paid for it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then I went to Munich and, dude, I have to tell you something. All these years of you meeting up with listeners in other cities, I now.

[Jen Harbinger]

Know coolest thing ever.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is the coolest thing ever. So we have a lot of amazing listeners in a lot of cities who have been writing me and inviting me to come visit. And I'm so grateful for all of these invitations. We have two particularly awesome listeners in Munich, Arseni and Diana. And these two listen to Feedback Friday together, which I always love. I love hearing when couples listen to the show together and then debate how we responded to a letter or like, get in fights about who's right about the best way to handle something. I just love that. But they listened to the show and they very generously invited me to come visit in Munich. And they had an extra room and they said, if you're down to stay, I'm down. And so it's a little bit of like an out there invitation. And I wasn't sure, but I chatted with Arseni and we got along really well. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this, let's do this. And I was like, maybe I'll stay for a night, maybe two. I went there. We ended up having the greatest time, dude. So I went down there and accepted their very kind invitation. And we ended up having a threesome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sorry, I can't.

[Jen Harbinger]

I gotta get my mind out of the gutter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We had a great threesome. Yeah, it was a classic Feedback Friday menagerie.

[Jen Harbinger]

Sorry. These are perfectly nice people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm just slandering them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kink shaming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Honestly, it was like that. But like an emotional menagerie, Whatever that's called.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's safer.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is that just a really good hang? Yeah, yeah. No, we just had a great time. They were amazing hosts and took me around Munich a little bit more. Like just let me tag along with them, especially Arsenic. We just walked around, had a great time. He showed me some cool stuff. We worked together. I had to prep the show, he had to do some work, hung out, made dinner, ended up on my last night just watching like three or four episodes of Couples Therapy, which was the most Feedback Friday thing we could have done.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah. Right on theme.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was really one of the highlights of my time in Europe. It was just amazing. I'm very grateful. Thank you, Arseni and Diana, for the invitation and for the amazing time in Munich. I really can't thank you guys enough. But, dude, is this what you have been experiencing all these years? Like this instant family that you feel with everyone you meet? It's just the connection is so.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's phenomenal. I mean, look, I love it. I don't always do extended hangs. Cause sometimes I just see people at cafes and then I get their email and then have to go run. But like, I don't know, the other.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Weekend Jen and I went out to dinner.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's this like, reservation in advance a month in advance place that we go to. They change the menu every month. It's like a really small, two seating per night restaurant. And I always eat at the counter with the chef's cook with Jen. And there's only two other seats there. So there was another couple. And this guy was like, really outgoing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And like borderline loud. But I was like, oh, he's got so much Riz.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm here for it. Right? It's like he's really enjoying himself and the chefs are talking with him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I realize that this story sounds like it's also heading in the direction of a threesome.

[Jen Harbinger]

It does. It does.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And so it sure does. And then I'm just sitting there, minding.

[Jen Harbinger]

My own business, letting this guy sort of like run the show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And he goes, jordan Harbinger. And I was like, how did you recognize me?

[Jen Harbinger]

And he goes, I'm only looking at the side of your face. It's Perfect.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was like, oh, that's really funny. He's like, yeah, I just saw the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Show art behind this Asian lady next to me, and it turned out to be a show fan, which actually makes a lot of sense. And he was an adventure traveler. Like, he just got back from Antarctica and Taiwan, which is crazy cool. And so we ended up talking the whole time, and the restaurant staff was.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, you two know each other? Because there's not that many regulars who always sit at the counter and you.

[Jen Harbinger]

Guys just happen to know each other. And I was like, he listens to my show. And they're like, you have a show, right? Cause, like, who the hell. What are you talking about?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, yeah, no, I love it. I love doing that. And it's always so random. Look, that was in my community.

[Jen Harbinger]

But it's more random when you're in Taiwan or when you're in another country.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And someone's like, are you that guy from that thing? It's like, yeah, this is pretty cool because it often happens when I'm alone too.

[Jen Harbinger]

And it's like, you know, you're kind of homesick and you don't know anyone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And someone's like, are you Jordan Harbinger? And you're like, this is really cool.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's like someone delivering a slice of home or friendship to you when you're just sitting at an airport lounge and it's like, this is the most welcome thing ever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I know sometimes people hesitate to say hi.

[Jen Harbinger]

Cause they're like, oh, he's probably busy. This happens all the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Please, even if I'm wearing my headphones.

[Jen Harbinger]

Tell me that you know about the show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because it always makes my day.

[Jen Harbinger]

And I know. I see people hesitate for, like, three hours at an airport lounge.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I'm like, why'd you take so long?

[Jen Harbinger]

Oh, you were listening to something or you were on a call.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't care.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Jordan is thirsty for throuple today.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thirsty for validation. What happened after Munich?

[Jen Harbinger]

I know you headed down to. Was it Vienna?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Vienna, yeah, that's right. Where I met up with two other listeners, Minna and Lena, who were both amazing. Also, Minna took me to lunch and then this amazing Japanese matcha place, which is so funny. She planned this based on what she knows about me from the show.

[Jen Harbinger]

Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, this man needs matcha. She took me to this very authentic, intense Japanese matcha place, where I stayed up until 4 in the morning. The matcha was so strong. It was so intense. We explored city center a bit. And then Lena took me on this insane Walking tour of Vienna. I've never done a tour like this. She was so cool about it too. She didn't let on that she had done her homework. But she did so much good homework. I think one of her many careers in a past life. She's an artist, very talented artist. But she worked as a tour guide at one point, I think in Peru. So she was very good. And she took me through incredible architecture and through these Nazi Germany towers that they've since integrated into these stunning parks. In Vienna, we went to the Sigmund Freud Museum, which was the one that was my contribution. It was the only thing I really knew I wanted to do in Vienna. Had to go visit the OG of course, we grabbed dinner and then we went to an amusement park where they had some of the weirdest rides I have ever seen. We didn't ride any of the rides, but we just walked around to look at the artwork because they have the statues that were incredible. That was another highlight of Vienna.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did you wear your pink Freud shirt?

[Jen Harbinger]

Pink Freud. Dark side of your mom.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dark side of your mom. No, I didn't pack that. I didn't pack that one. I should have. How funny would I be? Roll up to the museum with that T shirt. Damn, I really wish I had packed that now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, too late now. Vienna is stunning. It's got like a small, small town vibe, but it's a capital city.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's very odd.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Very show juxtaposition. It is too beautiful though. Man, if Wedding Cake were a city, it would be Vienna.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the whole city does look like.

[Jen Harbinger]

Frosting in the winter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was like, how can you have so many stunning things here and then people just live here. I see people jogging past the palaces, like in this open air museum. Blows my mind.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You need psychotic kings and dictators to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Get that kind of architecture.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, you just don't produce that kind.

[Jen Harbinger]

Of stuff in a democracy, especially a new one.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, you do not. Just freeway interchanges and CVS and free elections. Apatika chains.

[Jen Harbinger]

Free election.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Toss up. Which one's more useful? No, it would be nice if we had some fricking palaces in this country. But be careful what you wish for, because they might be the White House doesn't hold a candle to some of.

[Jen Harbinger]

The stuff you see in Europe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it's not too late.

[Jen Harbinger]

He's got three more years to build himself a palace.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's true. And every president does do a bit of decorating. But the White House will always look like the guest house.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The guest house of the third gardener in line for the throne.

[Jen Harbinger]

No kidding.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some of these places, that's where they.

[Jen Harbinger]

Make the family live with the people they don't like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, oh, you get the lame palace, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's so much I'm not telling you. Like so many other good things. Like we saw Marionette theater. These tiny puppets done by one of the oldest marionette troops in the world. Like, stunning. So cool. It was one of the dopest things I've ever done. Just a million things like that. And then I drove to Prague because I needed a halfway point between Vienna and Berlin. It's like an eight hour drive. So I stopped in Prague for one night and then I did one day there and it was. Have you been to Prague?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I went to Prague recently, actually.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, okay. Yeah, amazing. Central Europe, very spooky. Talk about vampire vibes, like, but beautiful place. And yeah, I'm definitely gonna go back. Cause I need some more time there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like Prague. I don't know what it is about that place, but I feel a little bit like a hot chick. When I go to Prague.

[Jen Harbinger]

I get a ton of attention from women there. I don't know why.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I must have a look that looks.

[Jen Harbinger]

Good in the Czech Republic.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, you do famously do well in Central Europe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's one of those things. Like, I remember I went with my.

[Jen Harbinger]

Parents several years ago to Prague on a tour. And I'd be on a bus with my parents and they'd go. My mom would go, so did you notice that the women were just staring at you? And I was like, yeah, what was that? She's like, I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it's not the haircut, it's not the fasci. That's a recent addition. And I was like, yeah, there were just three women that were not with.

[Jen Harbinger]

Each other just staring at me on the bus, like just the whole ride. And I remember that happening on multiple occasions. I'd walk down the street and like teenage girls would yell something at me in check. And I would not understand. And I'd be like, what? And they'd come up and talk to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Me and be like, oh my God, you're foreigner.

[Jen Harbinger]

And then like, they would just talk.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To me and it was so odd. And so, yeah, I don't know who doesn't like that?

[Jen Harbinger]

Maybe, maybe it gets old if you live there. But it's great to know that, as you said before, Papa's still got it. That's kind of nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

With the girls my own age, typically.

[Jen Harbinger]

A Little bit more rewarding and way less creepy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm going to stop talking now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Get thee to an apoteca, my friend.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Get the. Get thee to it.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yes. Anyway, dude, so epic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The people are everything.

[Jen Harbinger]

Our show Family is very special. Every time I meet up with somebody who listens to the podcast, I just think we have the best audience ever. I always have a blast.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, the Feedback Friday bond runs very deep. Much deeper even than I knew. I just feel like we're all very connected and I'm so grateful to be a part of it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Once you hop on the Dudes cruise.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Re family for life. All the drama just brings us closer together.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I love that you're now a traveling brand ambassador for Feedback Friday on the show. Again, a little envious, not gonna lie.

[Jen Harbinger]

And a little worried that our European.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Listeners are gonna be horribly disappointed when they eventually meet me. It's all downhill from here, folks. All right, Gabe, what is the first.

[Jen Harbinger]

Thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a licensed registered nurse who took off several years to stay home to raise my two children. Three years ago, I was hired by my child's school as a teacher's assistant and quickly gained a lot of close work relationships and rapport with the students. I wanted to work a job that kept me close to my kids as we have no family nearby and my husband works crazy hours in public safety, making me the primary parent. So when a health clerk position opened, I was highly encouraged to interview for it due to my background in nursing. It was a natural fit and I learned the job within just a few weeks. My job is full time and very intense. I serve a population of 800 students and staff alone. I'm the point of contact for all emergencies and I see upwards of 50 students in my office daily where I treat injuries and illnesses, contact parents, document office visits, keep records for all immunizations, and so much more. But I make $19,000 a year with zero benefits.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's insane for that amount of work. That is absolutely nuts.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm surprised to hear that. Yeah. After two months, my boss, the nurse manager, told me that my talents as an RN are entirely wasted in this role and said they had an open third nurse manager position they would hold for me. The promotion would land me $75,000 a year and full benefits.

[Jen Harbinger]

Great.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jen Harbinger]

Finally getting paid what you're worth.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The only problem? I don't have my Bachelor's. When I mentioned this, my boss told me that my name was already on the position and pestered me for months to start online school. I finally did and now I'm 8 months into a 12 month BSN program. Then yesterday I learned that they went ahead and hired another nurse outside of the district to fill the role that they had promised me. I was blindsided. Had they not goaded me, I wouldn't have gone back to school for a grueling program without having something lined up on the other side of graduation. So now here I sit going through a costly and time consuming program that I thought would be for a promotion and all I got was disappointment and a flippant sorry from my boss. I know nothing is guaranteed, but I can't help but feel let down and unsure where to go from here. My motivation to continue in my current role is diminished. I don't want to have a knee jerk reaction because my feelings are hurt. But I also know that I'm worth much more. Where do I go from here? Signed trying to hatch a play after my dream was snatched away.

[Jen Harbinger]

First of all, I'm really sorry things went this way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your boss got your hopes up. You put in a ton of work to satisfy the requirements for this role. The stakes were super high. Between the money and the benefits and the reward for all of this hard.

[Jen Harbinger]

Work and the pressure on you to provide and be the primary parent man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You had pretty good reason to be excited.

[Jen Harbinger]

And it really, yeah, it sucks that this didn't go your way. It sucks. I mean, you are going to make like four times the money.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And the fact that your boss wasn't.

[Jen Harbinger]

More apologetic that they didn't break this news, more kindly help you understand maybe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why they made the decision, maybe help find other opportunities for you.

[Jen Harbinger]

It just kind of makes everything worse.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So where do you go from here? Well, I think you need to go through the phase that you're in now where you're angry and you're sad and.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Re stunned and you're hurt and you kind of feel like the wind's gone out of your sails.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're mourning this job and everything that would have come with it. Of course you were looking at the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Vacations you were going to take, the debt you were going to pay off, the car you were going to buy, all that stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The next phase is really going to be about coming to terms with this, easing into a new reality where you're two thirds of the way through this degree, you're not getting your job. Maybe you don't have a game plan yet, but you've settled into this timeline.

[Jen Harbinger]

And it doesn't hurt as much.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that might take a few weeks or a month or more, I don't know.

[Jen Harbinger]

But it'll kind of happen on its own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But once you get to that point of acceptance, and maybe you're already getting there, that's where things get interesting. Because that's when you can start to look around and go, what do I want to do? What's my new goal? Do I want to apply for the same job in another school district? Do I want to apply for a different role? Are there any new opportunities popping up? Maybe ones that are even better than this position I thought was mine? Do I want to pivot to a new field? Only you can answer those questions, and it might take some time. But what I want you to make room for is the idea that not getting what you want sucks.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's devastating, and it's unfair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it's also going to open up.

[Jen Harbinger]

New opportunities for you, because that's how life works always.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know this firsthand. Also, you can make life work that way more and more in the way.

[Jen Harbinger]

That you process and respond to these setbacks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The more you allow yourself to grieve.

[Jen Harbinger]

And accept, the more you open yourself up to an unexpected timeline, the more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Quickly you get to the part where you go, man, that really sucked. But it's also so funny, because then.

[Jen Harbinger]

This happened, and then I met that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Person, and then I had time to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Pursue that opportunity, and you end up somewhere way better and with more appreciation, too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just want to be clear. I'm not telling you how to feel.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm not saying you're wrong for being upset.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kind of the opposite, actually. Being upset is just part of this process. What I'm saying, when you're ready, you zoom out.

[Jen Harbinger]

And I think you'll be amazed at what you find.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But you know, Gabe, I. I want.

[Jen Harbinger]

To point out something that might be important for her to see.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her boss promised her this great role. It's a huge pay raise, a much better position. She had lots of good reasons to take it. This is just stuck in my craw, though. She said she took months to start.

[Jen Harbinger]

The program, the college, the bachelor's thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that it was only after her boss pestered her to do it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ah, good point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Cause if I'm in her shoes, I'm signing up for online school that evening.

[Jen Harbinger]

When I get home from work. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Why did she drag her feet on that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't get it. So part of me is going, did your boss get frustrated with the timeline and then choose someone else? Cause you were dragging ass. Did they Think you didn't want the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Role very much and they just found somebody who did? Did they not have a lot of loyalty to you because they didn't see your commitment? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know. That might explain her boss's flippin sorry with no explanation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe the guy's an a hole, but.

[Jen Harbinger]

Maybe he's like, okay, I had to beg you to do the prereq just to get the job.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The rest of that sentence might have.

[Jen Harbinger]

Been instead of just sorry, it might.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have been, sorry you weren't motivated enough.

[Jen Harbinger]

To grab this opportunity that I stuck my neck out to get it and then hold for you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And look, I realize I am speculating a bit here. I could be totally wrong.

[Jen Harbinger]

And I'm sure we'll get an email that says you don't know what you're talking about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But when somebody offers you an opportunity.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like this, you gotta meet that opportunity with enthusiasm and gratitude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Follow through. You really have to honor it.

[Jen Harbinger]

You gotta meet it with the right attitude. I know this isn't fun to hear. Again, I'm speculating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I just feel like I'd be.

[Jen Harbinger]

Remiss if I didn't point this out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because whether that's the reason you didn't get this job or not, there's a part of you that wants to drag your feet. And that tendency is not going to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Serve you well in the future.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The good news is, hey, this kind.

[Jen Harbinger]

Of crap is how you learn.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And now that you're aware of this.

[Jen Harbinger]

You will never make this mistake again.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And you'll have a Bachelor's anyways. And you can start to rewrite that tendency now by finishing the program that you started, despite the demotivating situation that.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Ve run into here and meeting all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of your future opportunities with the right spirit. And look, you got this. You're already 70% of the way there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good luck.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And now we're going to immunize you against paying way too much for the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by BuyOptimizers. Most people think sleep is all about how many hours you log. But the real game changer is deep.

[Jen Harbinger]

Sleep, where I get like five minutes per night.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But whatever. That's when your body does the heavy lifting. Repairing tissue, balancing hormones, recharging your brain. That explains a lot. Miss out on it and you pay the price. Groggy mornings, sugar cravings, low energy, just feeling off all day. One of the biggest culprits is not Getting Enough Magnesium Nearly half of adults fall short on magnesium from diet alone.

[Jen Harbinger]

I was one of those people, according to my blood work a while ago.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Since magnesium is key for calming your nervous system and dialing down stress, low levels can make quality sleep hard to come by. And the problem is most supplements, they throw in one, maybe two basic forms of magnesium. Magnesium Breakthrough from BIOptimizers combines all seven forms so your body actually absorbs and uses it. The difference is quite noticeable. You fall asleep faster, you stay asleep longer, you wake up refreshed. Not just theory either. Jen noticed during pregnancy she'd get leg cramps unless she took magnesium. That's how critical this mineral really can be.

[Advertiser]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is also sponsored by Bolan Branch we spend about a third of our lives in bed and sleep is one of the most important things for our health. The quality of your sleep has a lot to do with what you're sleeping on. And that starts with sheets that are actually comfortable. Not scratchy, not too thin. That's why I love Ball and Branch. Their sheets feel incredible. The Signer sheets are buttery soft right out of the box and they actually get softer with every wash. And if you're somebody who runs hot at night, their percale sheets are cool, crisp and breathable so you're not tossing and turning. We have both. We love them. The difference is obvious as soon as.

[Jen Harbinger]

You slide into bed. They're made with the finest, the finest.

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jen Harbinger]

Well, that sounds very fancy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They even come with a 30 night worry free guarantee. But once you sleep in them, you won't want to give them up.

[Advertiser]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Lights on around here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All of the deals, discounts and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over on the [e-mail] deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday.

[Jen Harbinger]

Okay, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 42 year old single female and I met my main friend in my friend group, let's call her Jess, back in 2005. And I know what Jordan is going to say. Yes, she chose the name Jess. No, we did not come up with that name. Do not write us angry emails about always going with Jess. I could see it on his face and I'm just going to spare him.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, just cringing, clenching sphincters.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Last summer, while on a group trip that I was unable to attend, Jess told a friend of ours that she thought another guy in the group, Nick, was cute and that she was going to ask about. She's told me this story two or three times as recently as a few weeks ago, and each time her retelling was always the same. That she asked him out and that he said he wasn't interested. Each time she told it. My takeaway was how affronted she seemed that he said no to her. They never hung out or texted. Then two weeks ago, Nick asked me out via text while Jess was overseas on vacation. Before responding to him, I immediately thought I should run it by Jessica, but she was on vacation and I was unsure about how it would affect her. So I decided to call a mutual friend in the group to ask whether I would be a total a hole for accepting Nick's invitation to hang out. My friend who was with Jess on that trip last year and knew of the exchange between Jess and Nick described the situation as Jess shot her shot and Nick said he wasn't interested. That's it. She also went on to say that Nick and Jess don't have many things in common, but that she thought he and I definitely do and I should definitely go for it and I wouldn't be an A hole at all for doing so and that she doubted Jess would make a big deal about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Famous last word. So let me guess. Jess totally understood and was so happy.

[Jen Harbinger]

For you guys and there was no drama as a result.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep, that's the end of the story.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then they went to the apoteca to get ice cream.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Perfect.

[Jen Harbinger]

Perfect.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Granted, this was the answer that I wanted to hear because I was interested in him as well. So I decided to oblige him. We ended up hanging out three times in one week and have both exchanged the same sentiments. That we really like each other and would like to see where things go. When I texted Jess, I told her I Just wanted to give her a heads up that Nick had asked me out and that we'd hung out a couple of times and I wanted to let her know even though they never connected. She said that the time to tell her would have been before we hung out. I explained that I didn't do that because she was on vacation, and I didn't think it would have been the right time. When I asked her what would have been different if I told her the day he asked me out as opposed to a few days later, she didn't answer.

[Jen Harbinger]

Okay. So, yeah, nothing would have changed. That's the answer.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's basically the story. Yeah. And when I asked if she had feelings for Nick, she said that she didn't. But she did have feelings about, quote, someone she introduced into this friend group going out with a guy she was interested in and felt shitty about being rejected by and not saying a word until they'd been hanging out.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah. No. Ridiculous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What a petty stance to take. I brought you into this group, and.

[Jen Harbinger]

This is how you repay me? By going out with a guy you really click with? Who turned me down a year ago.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A year ago?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's not even lame. That's actually insane. Like, I'm still hurt by this one red flag.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, weird two.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you can't do anything because you're rubbing it in to, like, my ego hurts even more.

[Jen Harbinger]

I don't care if you like him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I. This is very weird.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That response really upset me. Yeah, I felt it was a low blow for her to bring up that she brought me into this friend group as though I'm on some condition probationary period, and I've somehow committed an infraction against her and the group.

[Jen Harbinger]

Exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I told her I was gonna go because I wasn't in the headspace to respond to what she just said. I understand why she feels how she feels about what I did. Of course I do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, I'm not sure I do, but.

[Jen Harbinger]

Okay, you're just a better person than me. No surprise.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But she asked him out over a year ago.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, this is what I'm saying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We seem to be all the same page.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If they were in a relationship and.

[Jen Harbinger]

They dated for a while, that would be okay. Like, I don't really want my friend dating my ex.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is not that at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I understand feelings of rejection and embarrassment, but I didn't know that she still felt that way now. Yeah, I'm hoping that she just spoke in anger and needed some time to cool off, but it's been a few days. And I haven't heard from her. The more I think about it, the more I feel this was largely a miscommunication and a misunderstanding of where her head was. Now I'm struggling with what to do and worrying that she sees me as an untrustworthy person and that our friendship is ruined. Did I seriously mess up here? Signed, having major regrets. And try not to fret after sending that text.

[Jen Harbinger]

No, you did not seriously mess up here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You assumed like a rational person that your friend had moved on from this rejection after a freaking year and that she wouldn't take it as a personal offense if you went out with this.

[Jen Harbinger]

Guy that you have so much in common with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The fact that she's treating this like.

[Jen Harbinger]

A betrayal of your friendship, that she's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Lording over you, the fact that she brought you into the friend group and.

[Jen Harbinger]

She'S assuming that this guy's offline limits because she couldn't be with him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is absurd. Selfish and absurd. Totally unwarranted. Where I would say, okay, maybe you did screw up a little.

[Jen Harbinger]

And I think you already know. This was in putting off sending that text before you hung out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not so much because you needed her permission to accept Nick's invitation.

[Jen Harbinger]

You guys are adults. He asked you out. They never even hung out. Their plotline literally went nowhere.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But on a practical level, and maybe.

[Jen Harbinger]

As a matter of basic respect, cya.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It might have been wise to send her a text saying, hey, sorry to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Bother you with this while you're on vacation, but Nick asked me out. I know you were interested in him at one point. I'm assuming that's all in the rear view mirror.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just wanted to tell you before we hang out so there's no misunderstanding or weirdness.

[Jen Harbinger]

If you have any feelings about this, I'm happy to talk. Just let me know where you are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Something like that. Less asking for permission, more getting out.

[Jen Harbinger]

Ahead of a potential problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're not saying, are you cool with it?

[Jen Harbinger]

You're saying this is what's happening. Just so you know, I'm happy to hear your thoughts on this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Honestly, with a more well adjusted person, this wouldn't even be a problem.

[Jen Harbinger]

You probably wouldn't even need to send a text like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude, I'm trying to put myself in her shoes. Gabriel, if we were both single and.

[Jen Harbinger]

I asked out a girl a year ago, and she was like, oh, sorry, no, you know, not like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'd be like, okay. And I might be bummed, but I don't think a year later I'd be like. And Then Julie ignored me.

[Jen Harbinger]

She had the gall to say, not, I don't like you like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just.

[Jen Harbinger]

Just wouldn't think about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then a year later, you're like, hey, that girl's sort of, like, interested in me. I would just be like, oh, cool, she's cool.

[Jen Harbinger]

I tried to ask her out and she wasn't into it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, I just don't. I can't imagine the universe where I would give two shits about that. Like, it's always nice to signal to a friend, hey, I care about you. I want to do this thoughtfully. Like, if you had said, like, hey, Julie asked me out, I would be like, oh, I appreciate that. I don't think it would be super necessary, though. It's just. It's thoughtful.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, totally. The fact that you didn't send that text, I know you said it was because she was on vacation, but I think you were also probably avoiding that conversation because you suspected that it would not go well. So you sort of knew that in advance.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, because she knew this was a minefield for Jess's ego based on the way she told the story multiple times.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. Because she was so affronted by Nick turning her down. So there's that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She was like, yeah, I don't want.

[Jen Harbinger]

To create an obstacle I don't want to deal with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm just going to kick the can.

[Jen Harbinger]

Down the road and hope this isn't as bad as I think. Which I understand that impulse for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You know, one of the things that I've learned as I've gotten a little older, whenever you feel that tug, like, oh, I probably should have a chat with this person, you know, especially when your first instinct is like, no, I'm just going to push that off as long as possible and hope that it doesn't go as badly as I think it will.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You have the chat, you have the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Chat, you send the text. Those are signals that the chat is probably necessary, but it's going to be hard, so you're trying to avoid it.

[Jen Harbinger]

And she knows that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I appreciated her honesty when she said, granted.

[Jen Harbinger]

When my friend told me I had nothing to worry about, that was the answer I wanted to hear. I.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's 2020 hindsight, I assume, but sometimes.

[Jen Harbinger]

We need to listen to that gut instinct there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So it's an interesting thing that happened here. Jess is clearly a tricky person. Sometimes she sounds very tender in this department, her ego is vulnerable. Our friend here said that she understands feelings of rejection and embarrassment, but I'm not sure that she does fully. Not With a person like this, Turning Jess down wasn't just hurtful or embarrassing. That's how a normal person would process that rejection. It sounds like it was kind of an injury, a narcissistic injury, a real blow to her sense of self.

[Jen Harbinger]

The fact that her main takeaway was how affronted she was that he said no to her and that she's still telling the story as recently as a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Few weeks ago is actually a little scary. Dude, I'm thinking about.

[Jen Harbinger]

And granted, these are not people in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My friendship circle, Gabriel, but I'm thinking.

[Jen Harbinger]

About when I was on my 20s and 30s, like, mission to get good with women. Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Rejection was such a fact of life, of that process, hundreds of women were.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like, no, thank you, or not returning my time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I never was like, can you believe this bitch? Never. Because otherwise, I would have nothing. I would have no free time at all. My life would be consumed with this. And she's telling the story a year later. It's like a little mentally ill sounding a little alarming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. So you have a very different lens on this kind of experience. But just imagine the collection of feelings and life experiences, wounds, self, concepts that would create a response like the one Jess had. When rejection gets refracted through that prism, it can be more than just hurtful or disappointing. It can put somebody in touch with inadequacy, shame, low self worth. You know, those are tough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I suppose those can sometimes feel almost fatal. Sometimes for certain people.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's a good word. And that's when the defenses kick in. Right. And it sounds like Jess defense is probably a few different things, but one of them is kind of grandiosity.

[Jen Harbinger]

Right, Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He doesn't know what he's missing.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm actually offended that he said no.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What an idiot.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And also, I invited you into this friend group. How dare you go out with a guy I was interested in?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, what she says is she views this whole thing as a status game. Like, well, you've put yourself above me.

[Jen Harbinger]

In this group, and I'm supposed to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Be above you in this group.

[Jen Harbinger]

And it's like other people aren't really thinking about that. Like, that. Making yourself feel powerful, devaluing somebody, superiority.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Stuff, that's just all.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's all nonsense for insecure people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If I can't get the guy, I can at least be queen bee.

[Jen Harbinger]

Ah. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anyway, sorry for this long tangent. We're psychoanalyzing your annoying friend. I didn't mean to go down that rabbit hole. But my point just. I think you probably underestimated just how fragile your friend really is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Although, come on, does that mean that.

[Jen Harbinger]

It'S our friend here's fault?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, sorry, I didn't realize your ego.

[Jen Harbinger]

Was so fragile and you were so hypersensitive that you were going to overreact?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, it's not her fault at all. These are Jess feelings to deal with. She might have stirred them up, but that doesn't mean she's responsible for them.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, okay, I feel the same.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But our friend here, on some level, intuited this fragility in Jess, even if she didn't appreciate how severe it actually is. And then she cramped around it by not sending the text, which was both to spare Jess on her vacation, but also to spare herself for reasons that would also be really good for her to understand, but that gave Jess ammunition to confirm to herself. Oh, yeah, this actually was a betrayal because she only told me afterward, which only reinforces the lens that made her experience Nick's rejection as a near fatal offense. Right, so that's what I find interesting. How two friends, one of them largely blameless and well meaning, even if maybe a little avoidant in this instance, how two friends can inadvertently create a conflict like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the next time she's in this.

[Jen Harbinger]

Situation, maybe she can notice this tendency to spare, slash, protect other people and herself and just choose to lean into it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's it. And to be clear, it's no guarantee that Jess would have been completely okay with this. I think it's very likely that she still would have blown up at her.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's what I'm getting hung up on, man. Like, what would satisfy this woman if she's still nursing a rejection from a year ago?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So the goal isn't so much to satisfy the Jesses of the world. The goal is to communicate and conduct yourself in a way that gives everybody the information that they probably deserve at the best possible moment so that you can know that you're on solid ground. And then if Jess or any other Jess in your life ever does have a difficult reaction, it's a lot clearer. What's Jess's stuff and what's our friend here stuff? And it just avoids the messy emotional math of a semi conscious dynamic playing out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just playing devil's advocate here. Is there a world where she is.

[Jen Harbinger]

Choosing a guy over her friend here?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I appreciate you bringing it up because it is interesting to imagine it from another angle, but given the facts, I don't know if I see it that way. I think it's more accurate to say that Jess is putting this guy between the two of them by insisting that she has some claim on him that really doesn't exist.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a good point. But also, to be fair to Jess.

[Jen Harbinger]

Who does deserve one good chance to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Try this a different way, she might want to go to Jess and try.

[Jen Harbinger]

To work through this and help her see that she's not trying to hurt.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her by dating Nick and that this.

[Jen Harbinger]

Doesn'T need to to be the choice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, if I were Jess, I'd want to be asking myself, why does this hurt so much? Who am I really angry at? Are these expectations really fair? Why am I standing in the way.

[Jen Harbinger]

Of my friend's happiness?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why does that happiness have to come at my expense? That's really her work to do. Your work is in the way you responded to her and also enjoying this relationship with Nick. That's more W e R K than.

[Jen Harbinger]

W O R K. So go get it girl.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it sounds like a fun and potentially promising relationship. And if Jess can't see that, sadly she might not be a true friend to you at all. So good luck. You can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise.

[Jen Harbinger]

Try to use descriptive subject lines.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, or live ones for that matter, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your sister's dating a mooching member of a 1% outlaw motorcycle.

[Jen Harbinger]

Gang, whatever's got you staying up at.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Night lately, hit us up [e-mail] we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. We Bit Wiser. It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. It is a great companion to the show. Very practical two minute read. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it.

[Jen Harbinger]

All right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, so just a heads up that this question deals with some very intense stuff. Pretty dark in case you're, I don't know, blasting this episode on a on a Bluetooth speaker at a children's birthday party or something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Famously how most people listen to the show, right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just listening on a Bose Flex sound while a clown does animal balloons in the background. Okay, let's get to the letter. Dear Jordan and Gabe, for years my 15 year old experienced numerous health problems In September 2023, I discovered the source. She finally told her psychiatrist here in Uganda that her Sunday school principal at our church, a 40 something year old woman, had been sexually abusing her since she was 9.

[Jen Harbinger]

I hate this already.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

More recently, she had subjected my child to gang rapes by her relatives and numerous strangers. This involved choking, burning her with lighters, urinating on her and severe beatings.

[Jen Harbinger]

My God. I've already read this letter by the way, and I am just speechless all over again because it's one of the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's one of the worst things I.

[Jen Harbinger]

Can imagine learning as a parent.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is beyond comprehension. We reported this to the police. The case was not investigated. Instead we got death threats. My daughter told me that she had kept quiet because they had threatened to do the same to her younger sister. My eldest daughter lives in Canada and I'm fortunate to have gotten visitor visas for all of us. When the threats escalated, we flew to Canada and are now refugee claimants. My child now suffers from serious PTSD and even had psychogenic non epileptic seizures. She continued to get death threats from her abuser and I was relieved when the doctors here in Canada stopped her from accessing her phone. She's been in and out of different mental hospitals since September 2024. The flashbacks are brutal to witness. The suicide attempts are frequent, even in Hospital under 24 hour guard.

[Jen Harbinger]

Your poor daughter. It's just so unspeakably sad. I'm so sorry to hear this. I hate it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Then this week she called me from the hospital and wailed for several minutes as she told me that the princ had also sexually abused my youngest child. This explains why my now 12 year old has bad anxiety, is very clingy and was scared of English lessons at their school.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just can't even imagine both your daughters.

[Jen Harbinger]

This principal is obviously a psychopath and a monster. This is the kind of thing that makes me just. If I could personally hunt this woman down and vigilante, take vigilante justice, I would do that. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I mean, it's unbelievable. It makes you wish for somebody to do terrible things to these people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's just horrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Makes you want to go full Liam Neeson on this woman. I know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Absolutely.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

John Wick.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We are all in therapy, including a DBT parenting group. For me, my PTSD girl has yet to start trauma treatment because she is chronically suicidal. Guys, this has been a terrible couple of years. I spent all of my retirement savings relocating us from Uganda and was able to Live off of these. For almost a year, I've been unable to work because of the chaos and my own trauma. I hope to start freelance writing and editing soon. We get Ontario Works government assistance basically and use the food bank, but I can't afford the rent. I manage to get a house by paying 10 months rent in advance to make up for not having the requisite references and credit history or pay stubs. In the meantime, I am completely broke, stuck in pain and scared. But I am a woman of faith and believe that God will bring healing to all of us. What can I do to earn an income knowing that complex PTSD is a long term issue? What can I do to get justice for my daughter while in Canada and get international authorities to investigate this school and the principal? And how can I ever heal from the pain of knowing this was going on under my nose? The betrayal and broken trust. Signed a brokenhearted mom trying to get on after this massive bomb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There are some stories that are just.

[Jen Harbinger]

So awful and so painful that there are no good words. Yeah, as a parent, as an advice show host, whatever. As a human being, my heart just breaks for you and your daughters. I just can't even believe that this happened.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I can't believe they were abused and trafficked by this woman, the principal at their Sunday school. It's like this is straight out of a horror movie. It's a crime.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's a betrayal. Absolutely disgusting and despicable. Evil, frankly. Thing to do to two young girls.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Furious doesn't cut it.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm angry at the police for not investigating. How useless of a human are you? If you're a cop and you're like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Nah, I just, I don't.

[Jen Harbinger]

I can't relate. I'm heartbroken for you. I really.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just don't have enough words to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Express my sadness for what you and your girls have been through.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So where to begin? I guess I want to start by.

[Jen Harbinger]

Saying these awful things that your daughters and you frankly, have been through. Tragically, they've happened. They've clearly had an impact on them. Your oldest especially.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it sounds like no matter what you do or how hard you work.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Re gonna have to accept that all three of you are now in a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Very intense, very complicated process. And it's not gonna be easy for a while. It'll take time.

[Jen Harbinger]

It might be very bumpy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I say that not to pile on. I say that because I don't want.

[Jen Harbinger]

To gloss over the reality of what is happening to them by diving right into practical solutions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's a Huge piece of this problem.

[Jen Harbinger]

That doesn't have a practical solution.

[Jordan Harbinger]

As a mother having no control at this point over what happened, I think.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Re gonna have to hold two truths in your mind at the same time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

One truth is that your daughters desperately.

[Jen Harbinger]

Need your love, your hard work, your intervention. You gotta fight like hell for them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The other truth is that you cannot heal them overnight.

[Jen Harbinger]

You cannot undo what has been done to them. You cannot make this okay. It's not okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you're probably going to be in.

[Jen Harbinger]

An ongoing process of acceptance and grief and chaos for some time, maybe even a long time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I want to make room for that because I'm sure you're going to come up against the limits of your ability many times. And there will be moments where you.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'll have to say to yourself, this is horrible. This is heartbreaking. This is terrifying. And I have to accept that this is what's happening. I have to let my daughters process.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This however they will.

[Jen Harbinger]

I have to make peace with this pain. I have to surrender.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also imagine your faith will play a big role in that.

[Jen Harbinger]

And if so, I say great.

[Jordan Harbinger]

As long as that faith is compatible.

[Jen Harbinger]

With action, which it sounds like it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So let's talk about action. You need a job. You need to be able to financially support your daughters. Your best strategy, and this won't be a surprise to you, will be to start cultivating relationships wherever you go, all the time. The person behind the desk at the food bank, at the employment center. These have to become your new allies. Win those people over your neighbor who's lived in Ontario longer than you have. Make them your new bff. The stranger sitting next to you at church in your DBT support group. Turn to those people, introduce yourself, talk about the service, the support group.

[Jen Harbinger]

Get to know them on a personal level.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And by the way, well done on getting yourself to that support group in the first place. I'm so glad you're surrounding yourself with these resources, these people. That is excellent. And to be clear, I don't mean this in a cynical way. I'm not telling you to just view everyone you meet as a tool for employment. But there is a practical aspect to relationship building. The more you meet and get to know people, the more goodwill you build, the more dots you can put on.

[Jen Harbinger]

The board to connect up, the sooner you're going to land a decent job.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And obviously, you have to do all the other things. Apply for jobs, invest in your skills. Figure out how you can be most useful to people. Pick up the phone, call organizations, Pitch yourself. Maybe you volunteer at your church fundraiser or whatever, all of that. I love that you're already exploring writing and editing.

[Jen Harbinger]

It sounds like you have real skills.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That will be valuable to a lot.

[Jen Harbinger]

Of different people, which is terrific.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But the glue, the fuel, it's always going to be the quality of your relationships. And Obviously, I gotta plug 6minutenetworking.sixminutenetworking.com I've said this before.

[Jen Harbinger]

This stuff is not just about landing a job. It's about building a life that's supported.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And organized by your relationships. This stuff is just as crucial for.

[Jen Harbinger]

An asylum seeker as it is for an executive who's trying to rise up. And obviously, I probably don't have to say that it's free, but it's free. So please take advantage of six Minute Networking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Now, about getting justice. That's a much more complicated question, Gabe. I'm a little bit at a loss on this one.

[Jen Harbinger]

They're in Canada now, thank God.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The police in Uganda either didn't take it seriously or just refused to do anything about it because corruption, possibly. I don't know.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm not. I'm not even sure why the police.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Would even start now doing anything. So is getting justice even the right thing to focus on at this point? At all?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a fair thing to want to focus on. Her daughters have been victimized. They deserve justice. And also other victims. There must be others. They deserve protection, too, so I get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, for sure. I just mean, with all of this turbulence and pain and the more pressing.

[Jen Harbinger]

Issue of earning enough money, should she.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also be spending her precious time and.

[Jen Harbinger]

Energy trying to get justice for what happened back home?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No. Right. Yeah, fair point. And it's a good question. Only she can really answer that. But I do agree that her number one priority needs to be getting a career that will stabilize them, take care of them. I imagine it's going to be hard to fight the good fight on the justice front without, you know, having a secure roof over their heads and food in the fridge and knowing that her daughter is not immediately at risk of suicide and all of that. But when you're ready, and I think you'll know when it's time, I would consider reaching out to some people who can help you draw some attention to your case. I'm thinking legal aid organizations, I'm thinking religious nonprofits that focus on community support. You know, maybe folks that focus on holding people in the church world accountable. I'm also thinking journalists in Uganda and maybe also in Canada who cover Crimes like this or religious abuse or police corruption or failures of justice more broadly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or refugees who come to Canada seeking.

[Jen Harbinger]

Asylum and what, they're fleeing back home just to throw another angle in there, because maybe they're like, well, we can't do anything about this, but we can show why people come to Canada, what they're. The desperation that they face back home.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Great idea. You write these people with your beautiful writing skills and you say, hi, I'm so and so. I've been following your work in this area. Thank you for what you do. Here's what happened to my daughters at this school. Here's how the system failed us. I want justice. I need guidance. And I would be very grateful to partner with you on bringing this to light and holding these people accountable. I think if you're going to get the right people to pay attention in Uganda at this point, it's probably going to be because a lawyer takes up your case or your daughter's story appears in a major newspaper or something, and the article says, these girls were trafficked and abused and the mother went to the police and the police did nothing. And someone from on high reads that and goes, oh, shit, this is a problem now we gotta look into this or it's gonna look even worse.

[Jen Harbinger]

Totally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, it shouldn't work this way, but.

[Jen Harbinger]

Sadly, it often does.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It often does. And this isn't always successful, but it can be. It's going to take a lot of work, but you might be amazed by the people you will connect with. And that kind of support can really snowball and it can make a real difference.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's interesting, Gabe, both of her questions.

[Jen Harbinger]

How do I make money and how do I get justice in a big way? They both come down to how she tells her story. Thank goodness she's a writer, right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You took the words right out of my mouth. She has to become a storyteller now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, I'm sure the last thing she wants to do is tell a stranger.

[Jen Harbinger]

At a job fair or whatever, hey, my daughters were horrifically abused by their Sunday school principal. I desperately need a job to pay for their therapy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not that she's even the type of.

[Jen Harbinger]

Person who would do that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No. But doing that in the right way, I do think that needs to be part of her strategy here for sure.

[Jen Harbinger]

Absolutely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Again, I'm not encouraging her to be cynical about this.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm not saying, you know, trot out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your tale of woe to curry favor.

[Jen Harbinger]

With everyone you meet so they'll have pity on you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But this story, it's so Heartbreaking. And it's extremely powerful because of that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally. I'm watching her movie. I am invested in that story.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Jen Harbinger]

She needs people to invest in her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whether it's asking someone to introduce her to hiring managers or getting a therapist.

[Jen Harbinger]

To give her an affordable rate or getting a landlord to lower the rent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whatever it is that she needs. So I'll let you decide how and.

[Jen Harbinger]

When to tell your story. It's your story. I can't tell you how to talk about something this personal, but I do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Want to encourage you to get comfortable with the idea of sharing these parts of your story with people, just as you did with us. As difficult as it must be, you have to give people a window into your life. You have to give them a reason to care. And when they hear what you've been going through and they see how hard.

[Jen Harbinger]

You'Re working, not just waiting for somebody to save you, I think you might.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Be shocked by how much people show up for you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I totally agree. Before we wrap up here, let's talk about what healing might look like. I'm with Jordan. This is going to be a long road. I imagine it's not going to be linear. Obviously, therapy is going to be a huge component. And again, kudos to you for getting your daughters and yourself into treatment, into hospitals, when necessary, into the support group. I commend you so much for that. And I really hope you in the hospitals can help stabilize your oldest daughter. It sounds like she's in a lot of pain. I can't even imagine how hard that must be to watch. And I'm just so sorry. The other big form of healing is going to come through your friendships, your family, your connection to God, to finding meaning in suffering, and also just the love that you and your daughters give one another. I think you know that. But what you're wrestling with specifically is the pain of knowing that this abuse is going on under your nose, so to speak, of being betrayed by a trusted person who was in a position of authority. And that is a very unique pain. I don't have any easy answers there. Your anger, your hurt, they are real. They're appropriate. I'm not sure how you're supposed to immediately convert those feelings into something else or heal them overnight. And honestly, I'm not sure that you should.

[Jen Harbinger]

I mean, that anger might end up being quite useful when she channels it into the job search, into reaching out to people about sharing her story.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's a form of healing, too. But look at the beginning of the segment, Jordan, you said that she's gonna have to move between these two ideas, that she needs to fight like hell and she needs to surrender.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I think that this is one area where she probably needs to surrender for the moment. The pain that she's in is unavoidable. It can't be undone. I do hope in time that it eases up, maybe it'll evolve, but. But she can't fast forward through that. She can only sit with it and yeah, use it as motivation, follow it into relationships and opportunities that can help her and her family. Of course. But all of that will still involve self forgiveness and it will require a lot of acceptance. It kind of pains me to leave you with that thought because, you know, what do I know about a pain like this? I don't. And if I were in your shoes, I would want to get rid of the feeling too. I would want to heal as soon as possible. I guess I'll just offer you two things. One is surrendering does not mean giving up. There's a difference. And two, how do I put this exactly? It's such a big concept, but so much of life is uncontrollable, right? Uncontrollable and non negotiable. A lot of things just happen. They happen to us and sometimes they are really bad things. And they leave us with very intense, very complicated feelings that just have no easy remedies. And I think they push us to a place that the mind cannot do anything about on its own. It seems to me that you're in one of those situations now and you're going to find your own way through it. And I'm confident that the answers and the relief that you're looking for, they will come in time. But until they do, I do think you're going to have to give yourself over to these feelings without trying to change them too much. So if you can't forgive yourself, then maybe try accepting. And if you can't accept, then, you know, just allow. And if even that is difficult, then maybe just observe, you know, I don't think that this is a mental experience anymore. It's really, it's a spiritual one.

[Jen Harbinger]

This is so intense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I 100% understand why she's struggling.

[Jen Harbinger]

As a parent, it's your duty to protect your children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even though stories like this show that.

[Jen Harbinger]

You can't always do that and you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Feel like you failed if you don't. If I were in her shoes, I.

[Jen Harbinger]

Don'T think I'd be handling this half as well, as she is, honestly. And, I mean, she moved to another country. The whole thing is kind of impressive and amazing, but still, I would encourage.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You to not turn this rage you.

[Jen Harbinger]

Feel against yourself too much.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Although I completely understand why this happens.

[Jen Harbinger]

You've entrusted this educator with your children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which virtually all parents do all the time, and she violated that trust. She took that responsibility, which is a sacred one, and she did literally the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Worst thing she could have done with it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I know I said this at.

[Jen Harbinger]

The top, but this woman, these men.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They deserve to, at the very least.

[Jen Harbinger]

Rot in prison for life for what they did to your children and God knows how many other children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is monstrous. And I have to believe that some.

[Jen Harbinger]

Form of justice is coming for her. People like this are a disease on humanity.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I am so deeply sorry that.

[Jen Harbinger]

Your family crossed paths with somebody like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's terrifying to me that they're the principal of a Sunday school. I mean, this is like what you hear from Keweenon, except it's real life.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's absolutely insane.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But listen, you're doing so much right here.

[Jen Harbinger]

The immigrant journey is not an easy one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There will be very tough periods.

[Jen Harbinger]

You're incredibly courageous to make this transition. And I know it might not seem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like it, but your daughters are lucky to have a mother who's creating a new home for them, who's working hard to support them through this, and who's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Taking care of herself, which is equally important, by the way. I'm glad you touched on that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. You're in your own recovery process, too, and that's essential for your daughter's healing. I'm so impressed with what you've accomplished so far.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm very proud of how you're showing up to this frankly, unimaginable situation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sending you and your daughters a big.

[Jen Harbinger]

Hug and wishing you all the best.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know who won't make a tasteless ad pivot after a letter like that? Oh, my gosh. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Brain fm. You ever sit down to get work done? Suddenly, everything else seems urgent.

[Jen Harbinger]

I open my laptop. I gotta prep for an interview.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I get sidetracked. I started using Brain fm. It's an app with music that's scientifically.

[Jen Harbinger]

Designed to help you focus, relax, or sleep.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The first time I tried their deep work mode, I was like, oh, cool. Different. It locked me in focus.

[Jen Harbinger]

I wasn't tempted to check my phone every five minutes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Could be placebo, but I don't care. They got different modes. Creative motivation, even Turbo if you need.

[Jen Harbinger]

A little extra help staying on task.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And what's wild is this isn't just like cool marketing. Brain FM is the only music company.

[Jen Harbinger]

With a National Science foundation grant to improve focus.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They even published a study in Nature's Communications Biology, which is a journal showing.

[Jen Harbinger]

Their patented music tech literally increases brain activity linked to focus, which is pretty cool.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And hey, it's not just for work. Throw on the sleep mode at night to shut your brain off. It beats lying in bed running through tomorrow's to do list. So if you're like me and you.

[Jen Harbinger]

Get distracted by pretty much everything, Brain.

[Jordan Harbinger]

FM gives you that edge to get into the zone and maybe actually stay there.

[Advertiser]

Unlock your brain's full potential. Free for 30 days by going to Brain FM Jordan. That's Brain FM Jordan for 30 days. Free.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. We all run into challenges in life and in relationships. That's just part of being human. What makes the difference is how you manage those challenges. For us, therapy has become part of that routine.

[Jen Harbinger]

We use BetterHelp every week, and it's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Something we look forward to. It's a reset, a chance to work through things with somebody who's trained to help. BetterHelp makes that process easy. They've been around for over 10 years, with more than 30,000 licensed therapists helping over 6 million people.

[Jen Harbinger]

Their matching system is great. You fill out a short questionnaire. They connect you with a therapist who fits your needs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime, no extra cost. And the convenience is really hard to beat. It's all online, so you can fit.

[Jen Harbinger]

A session into your life at the click of a button.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's why BetterHelp has a 4.9 rating from over 1.7 million reviews. We all face challenges, but you don't.

[Jen Harbinger]

Have to face them alone. BetterHelp can help you find your match.

[Advertiser]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Is sponsored in part by the Defender. We all have those big goals that seem just out of reach, right? But the truth is, that's what keeps us moving forward. For the people who embrace challenges and explore their way, there's the Defender. The Defender is built to handle whatever comes its way with legendary capability. On road or off. It's engineered with a tough, rigid body, tested to the extreme and built with durable, lightweight architecture for strength and confidence. But it's not just about ruggedness. It's an icon, reimagined with a design that feels modern yet honors its adventurous roots. Plus, there's a Defender for every kind of Explorer, from the Defender 90 to the 110, and even the 130, which seats up to eight people. So whether it's just you or the whole family, there's a model for your journey. If you're ready to embrace the impossible, the Defender is your perfect partner, beyond capable and ready to go wherever you're headed next. Build your defender@land roverusa.com if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals if that doesn't work, you can email us jordanordanharbinger.com we are happy to surface codes for you because it's that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, and now for the recommendation of the week.

[Jen Harbinger]

I am addicted to Litvilla.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So at the top of the episode, I mentioned that I just got back from this amazing road trip. And I think part of the reason it was so amazing is that I did much, much less planning for this trip than I have ever done. I didn't have a set return date. I didn't have a detailed itinerary. I just kind of booked one day at a time, maybe two days, sometimes not even knowing where I was going to sleep that very night. And it all started because I just booked the rental car and that was it. I was like, oh, well, now I have to do it because I already have to go to Avis in the morning and get the car, right? And then I booked my Airbnb for the first night in the car on the way to Avis, and I just kind of managed the whole trip like that with just a couple, you know, guiding lights to give the trip a little bit of shape. And it's been the best part of my time in Europe so far. The whole experience reminded me just how little planning and how little certainty we actually need to have a really great time or just to do something awesome. All you have to do really is take one step toward the thing you want, just one, and Sometimes you kind of have to force yourself to do it. I was a little bit in that mindset. I was like, when am I going to do it? Should I do it this week? Maybe I can do it next week? I was like, you know what?

[Jen Harbinger]

What?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now is my moment. I'm going to go book the reservation at Avis and then I'm committed. But it's interesting because, like, the mind does not like having one step done and not the other 10 already at least mapped out. But you usually don't have to do the other 10. You can just do them as you go and it's better.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally.

[Jen Harbinger]

Or you won't even end up needing to do them at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, exactly. So this applies to something small, like a road trip. It also applies to bigger things. Career goals, creative projects, you know, big habits you want to develop, whatever. When I made my short film a couple years ago, my first big step was writing the script and then asking my friend Brenna to be my producer. And then after that, it was like a wave got created and I can't even take credit for it. She brought the project to a production company. They brought all their expertise. Before I knew it, we had a great DP and bigger actors and more budget and better locations and better post production. And the whole thing just had its own logic, it's had its own momentum. And all I had to do was kind of guide it and make the most of it. And that's how the best things are in life, I think so. So my recommendation of the week is not having everything planned out before you begin something. Just taking the first step and then see what happens. I'm a big fan of this. I'm going to do more travels in this spirit.

[Jen Harbinger]

Amen to all that, Gabe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I would add, living this way can be a little nerve wracking, can.

[Jen Harbinger]

Be hard if you run a little anxious because like you said, it does involve a degree of uncertainty.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's also what I love about.

[Jen Harbinger]

Doing stuff this way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It kind of forces you to increase your capacity for that uncertainty. And to me, there's a very fine.

[Jen Harbinger]

Line between uncertainty and anticipation. The uncertainty actually heightens the fun because you're constantly surprised and you don't know exactly what's gonna happen next.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you're also retraining your brain to experience uncertainty in a new way.

[Jen Harbinger]

And that can change how you navigate so many things in life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hey, solid rec. Also, in case y' all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with.

[Jen Harbinger]

Other listeners about specific episodes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If there was an episode you really liked, an episode you really didn't like.

[Jen Harbinger]

Or you want to share some additional thoughts or learn more from other people in the show. Fam Definitely. Check it out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's really some fun conversations happening in there.

[Jen Harbinger]

A lot of venting and like back and forth. Good faith debates that are polite.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can find that in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All right, next up, hello Jordan and Gabe. My girlfriend and I listen to Feedback Friday weekly and something we've noticed becoming more common is letter writers going overboard in adding redundant, useless or smarmy information in their inquiries. For example, my amazing, smart, handsome, funny, professional underwater basket weaving husband and I have been together for five wonderful, fulfilling, amazing and exciting years. However, I think he's cheating on me, or he isn't communicating with me, or he's lying to me, etc. Or my 8 year old child who's neurodivergent, at the top of their game and crushing it in life is being bullied by the mean HOA for breaking rules that I, as his parent, agreed to abide by. What does being neurodivergent have to do with this question? Is this a parent or a spouse humble bragging or trying to talk themselves into something that they don't believe in their heart?

[Jen Harbinger]

Wow, okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is really getting under their skin, eh? I mean, it's an interesting question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I suppose that underwater basket weaving comment is kind of funny though. I will give them that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a nice touch. Personally, I love knowing what weird hobbies people's spouses are into, I suppose.

[Jen Harbinger]

But look, I see what they're getting at. I already have thoughts, obviously, but keep going.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Here's another gripe. This one isn't as common on your show, thankfully, but it has still been sprinkled in here and there. The belief that social injustices should be at the forefront of every conversation and social situation. No, I'm not going to have these conversations when going to family gatherings, attending social meetups, or visiting my friend in the hospital after having a major surgery. Why are people expecting these things to take over our lives?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not sure who people are.

[Jen Harbinger]

I don't think everyone is doing this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But clearly these topics are a part.

[Jen Harbinger]

Of the conversation now more than ever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And people have different feelings about them, different interests in talking about this stuff.

[Jen Harbinger]

And that's fair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I am a little puzzled by your frustration that this happens on the show sometimes though.

[Jen Harbinger]

I mean, if somebody brings up some social injustice in a letter it's usually because it's somewhat relevant to their story. Right. It doesn't mean they're trying to shoehorn a conversation about racism or whatever into a story about cheating. I think maybe I just keep jumping the gun. I'll let you finish.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm a gay woman and I dislike when I'm told I need to acknowledge these things better or that I'm, quote, doing my people a disservice by not putting them at the forefront of my, especially by self appointed allies. Does it ever stop? Dum vivimus vivamus. What say you? Signed. Feeling the time is ripe to share a couple of gripes.

[Jen Harbinger]

Wow. Well, that's a fascinating reveal. I didn't necessarily see that coming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, you didn't see that coming, did you?

[Jen Harbinger]

I 100% thought this was a white middle aged dude until the end there. Why wouldn't I? I'm a white middle aged dude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I love that she waited until.

[Jen Harbinger]

The very end to tell us that she's gay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well, I'm kind of riveted by this letter now.

[Jen Harbinger]

This just became about something much more interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dum vivimus vivamus.

[Jen Harbinger]

Obviously that's one of those Latin phrases.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I had to look this up as well. So. It means while we live, let us live.

[Jen Harbinger]

Got it. Okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Carpe diem kind of thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know, something like that. Make the most of life while you have it, I think. Enjoy the present moment.

[Jen Harbinger]

Very on brand with your recommendation of the week.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I did not plan that, but yes, totally. I'm firmly in my doom. Vivimos vivamos era.

[Jen Harbinger]

And a merry vivamos to you as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So. Okay, this is a unique one. I'm not sure we've gotten a letter like this before. A little complainy, a little philosophy, a little pretentious Latin lesson.

[Jen Harbinger]

Lots going on here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So she doesn't like it when people.

[Jen Harbinger]

Throw in extraneous details. Interesting. Look, I guess I take your point when the details aren't truly relevant to the story. I'm sure that happens from time to time. I get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also think these details usually do.

[Jen Harbinger]

Matter, maybe in ways that are not immediately apparent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For example, in that cheating example you gave, if someone's like, my amazing husband is great in all these ways, our.

[Jen Harbinger]

Marriage has been incredible, but I also think he might be cheating. I actually think that is super relevant.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because that complicates the picture. It gives us additional data. It helps us understand the bind that this person is in. If they didn't say any of that.

[Jen Harbinger]

And they just said Hey, I think my husband's cheating. It's like, okay, we can try to help, but there's way less context also.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It'S way less interesting and then there's less connection, less relation stuff happening with us and the person.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, same thing with the other example, right? If somebody mentions that their child is.

[Jen Harbinger]

Neurodivergent and being treated poorly by the HOA for selling chocolate bars to the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Neighbors in the lobby or whatever, that is also relevant because A, a neurodivergent child will experience that differently. Okay, maybe their neurodivergence is informing the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Situation in some way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And B, a parent of a neurodivergent child might need to approach their child differently, help them work through the problem differently. But again, C, even if it's not totally relevant, I still kind of like.

[Jen Harbinger]

Knowing who this particular kid is. It's not just any 8 year old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It'S a super intelligent 8 year old on the spectrum.

[Jen Harbinger]

That's the reality of that listener's situation. We love hearing about it and I think we need to hear about it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, I mean, just look at our friend here's letter. We thought she was one kind of person. We thought her letter was one kind of letter. And then she tells us that she's gay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, good point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, would she argue that that was an indulgent or extraneous detail? I mean, in a way it is. We don't need to know that she's gay in order to answer her questions, but the fact that she's gay makes her questions so much more interesting and more complex. So. So yeah, now there's an interesting contradiction or a wrinkle there. It also potentially puts her on more solid ground when she says that she doesn't need self appointed allies telling her how much to talk about issues related to her identity. Whereas if that were coming from someone else, it might mean something different.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah, if this came from a middle aged white dude, like it's just a very different question depending on who poses it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not sure I would have chosen the letter actually if it were the case.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I believe it. So are these details always self indulgent or humble, braggy or an attempt to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Talk yourself into something you don't believe in your heart? Clearly, surely not.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's interesting. Her other argument, which she kind of slipped in there, is that these personal details are irrelevant in light of certain other facts. Like it doesn't matter if your child is brilliant or neurodivergent or whatever, if they live in a building where the HOA Says you cannot sell stuff in the lobby for her. It's end of story. Who cares what kind of child your kid is.

[Jen Harbinger]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So my sense is that she's a.

[Jen Harbinger]

Very practical person, a very no nonsense person. And hey, I can respect that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I admire that quality too sometimes. But. But my feeling is that practicality misses.

[Jen Harbinger]

A lot of interesting territory and it kind of flattens the nuance of the stories we take.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Agreed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not trying to like cut her down for this.

[Jen Harbinger]

I'm sure she has good reasons for being practical and logical and there's absolutely a place for that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But if you look at the story of the autistic child selling stuff in the lobby and you go, sorry, you're autistic. Sorry your side hustle's being shut down. But the rules are the rules.

[Jen Harbinger]

None of the other stuff matters that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Shuts other things down. Then we don't get to explore what.

[Jen Harbinger]

It'S like for that kid, that parent. We don't get to talk about creative.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Solutions to their problem. We don't get to empathize with a.

[Jen Harbinger]

Kid with a unique brain. None of that. Or we just get a letter that's way more generic.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Which does tend to make our answers more generic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jen Harbinger]

So the more we talk about this, the more I feel that being neurodivergent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kind of has everything to do with the question. It is the question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Her second question is even more interesting to me, actually.

[Jen Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Honestly, I don't know if I have.

[Jen Harbinger]

A good answer there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I can appreciate where she's coming from. I don't know if every Thanksgiving dinner or hospital visit needs to end up being about police violence or apartheid or whatever. Not because these aren't topics worthy of discussion. Of course they are.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But.

[Jen Harbinger]

But there's a time and a place for everything.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And sometimes, this is my experience, sometimes these philosophical or political discussions, which by the way, are rarely true debates or conversations. Right. They're usually just people voicing their established opinions and kind of speaking past each other, which might be part of what she doesn't appreciate. But sometimes these discussions can actually eclipse the more important thing in that moment, which is we're having dinner together, we're visiting you in the hospital, we're getting to know each other, whatever it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I totally take her point there. I can also appreciate that questions of social justice, just to state the obvious, they're important. It's good that we're talking about them more. We're in touch with topics and feelings and problems now that we weren't before. And Sometimes people want to bring those into their close relationships, which is how Thanksgiving dinner can end up being about police violence or LGBT rights or whatever. What I don't think is cool, and.

[Jen Harbinger]

I think I'm on her side on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This, is people lecturing you about what.

[Jen Harbinger]

Your relationship with this stuff should be, how vocal you should be about it, how much time you should spend thinking about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I mean, that's up to her, of course.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Truly, if a straight self appointed ally has given you shit for not posting.

[Jen Harbinger]

About Pride week on Instagram, coming from them especially, that's annoying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it's presumptuous.

[Jen Harbinger]

And I get why it rubs you the wrong way. I hate to traffic in these broad stereotypes. I know not everyone is like this, but that is why people get annoyed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

With social justice warriors. This is the gay equivalent of a white person telling a black person that.

[Jen Harbinger]

They'Re letting down black people by not talking or thinking about racism the way they are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's like, eh, thanks for fighting the good fight. I'm glad you're passionate about this stuff. But who are you to tell me the very person you say you're fighting for, that I'm doing social justice wrong, that I'm letting down my people? They're not even your people. Shut your face.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is pretty presumptuous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is. And I'm getting a little sweaty talking.

[Jen Harbinger]

About this because this is not a political show and I'm not even trying to make a political point here at all. For me, it's about empathy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is about respect.

[Jen Harbinger]

It's about self awareness.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I'm with you. And it's also about a person's right to decide what relationship they want to have with their own identity. I don't know if anyone else gets to tell them that.

[Jen Harbinger]

Agreed. So does the social justice talk ever stop? I mean, I don't know. Probably not. Especially on the Internet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world where we never talk about this stuff in a responsible, respectful way. But you can decide how and when.

[Jen Harbinger]

You participate in it, who you hang out with, what you do with these feelings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It might also be interesting for you to share them with people.

[Jen Harbinger]

Like if you're in the hospital visiting a friend and someone starts talking about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Israel and Palestine, maybe say, hey, I.

[Jen Harbinger]

Love that we're all passionate about peace and human rights, guys, but we're here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because Tanya had a surgery. Let's keep the focus on her today. Do that with a smile.

[Jen Harbinger]

It might help people reflect on the best time to talk about this stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But look, this practical, no nonsense quality of yours, I think it has upsides and downsides. So while you're making some very fair points, I would also encourage you to.

[Jen Harbinger]

Make room for feelings and mindsets that are different from yours, which is exactly what you want other people to do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

With you, including this tendency for people.

[Jen Harbinger]

To include certain details about themselves in their letters.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It might be interesting to consider why these personal details rub you the wrong way. What part of you is being stirred up by other people sharing them? I do wonder if your two gripes.

[Jen Harbinger]

Are maybe two sides of the same coin.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And in the spirit of feedback Friday, I'd love to invite you to bring more curiosity to these parts of yourself.

[Jen Harbinger]

And other highfalutin sentiments.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe it's just a thought. Maybe the practical, logical part of her brain is in part a way to deal with the vulnerability and also the messiness of living with all of the facts about a person person you know, or at least a response to it, because that doesn't seem to sit very well with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a way to short circuit the.

[Jen Harbinger]

Tension of living with multiple truths.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the HOA rules might be very clear and a neurodivergent child might be.

[Jen Harbinger]

Facing a really interesting dilemma.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A marriage might be great and one.

[Jen Harbinger]

Spouse is struggling with difficult feelings.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anyway, you can't go wrong doing this.

[Jen Harbinger]

Because we can only empathize with other people to the extent that we relate to ourselves.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Go back and check out Dr. Mike Isretel if you haven't done so yet yet. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter.

[Jen Harbinger]

And Instagram where you can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlauskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer, so consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and.

[Jen Harbinger]

We'Ll see you next time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's a trailer featuring Tom Hardin once entangled in insider trading, who transformed into Tipper X, a pivotal informant instrumental in exposing major securities fraud cases for the FBI.

[Tom Hardin]

So insider trading, trading stocks on information that's material. And if you have that information before the public, you can place your long trade or your short trade if they're going to miss or beat the estimates from Wall Street. So if you were to have this information before everybody else, then you can make profitable trades. And my rationalization was, seems like everybody's doing it. Who am I hurting? The boss was looking the other way. I'll do it just this once and never do it again. I placed the trade, and it was just a few keystrokes. Years later, people said, what were you thinking? It was all a very slow, slippery slope of like, this is how I rationalized it. And I hear this guy behind me say, hey, are you Tom? Turn around. Yeah. And then there was two FBI agents. And he's like, look, man, we know about your four trades. And my first thought was, I know, I. They're here and, oh, my God, my dad's gonna kill me. Oh, my God, my wife's gonna divorce me. And then I thought, holy crap, this might impact my career. Oh, my God, I might go into prison. So it went from dad to prison. I immediately started making implicating statements. So the sentencing guidelines is based on the money my firm made just over a million. So I was looking at three years in prison. If you would have told me when I graduated from Penn, you know, a few years later, you're gonna be insider trading. I would never do that because I'm a good guy. It was also self inflicted. I did this all to my family myself. You know, for the past seven years now, pretty much every week, I get in front of a group of people, a complete group of strangers, and tell them the worst thing I've ever done.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don't miss this compelling story of a transformation and redemption on episode 918.

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The questions start early and then they start multiplying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do babies hold grudges?

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How do I know when he's full?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Logging poop comma, necessary.

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