The Jordan Harbinger Show: Greg Lukianoff | Failing Arguments Against Free Speech

Episode 1216 | Released September 30, 2025

Episode Overview

In this timely conversation, host Jordan Harbinger speaks with Greg Lukianoff—president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) and co-author of The Canceling of the American Mind—about the most common arguments used against free speech today, why they fail, and the real dangers posed when society accepts censorship. Sparked by a high-profile case of comedian Jimmy Kimmel’s firing and current events, this episode delves into cancel culture, government overreach, campus shout-downs, online threats, hate speech, and free expression’s precarious position in both the U.S. and worldwide.

The discussion is urgent, critical, and peppered with practical examples, memorable history lessons, and cautionary tales about the cost of silencing unpopular speech—even for the best intentions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Jimmy Kimmel Firing & What Counts as ‘Cancel Culture’

[04:25], [05:54], [14:47]

• The episode opens with the breaking news that comedian Jimmy Kimmel has been fired/suspended “over jokes he made”—prompting debate about whether this is genuine accountability or a failure of free speech.
• Lukianoff notes the difference between real-time firing by a private company and government pressure—a phenomenon termed “jawboning,” where regulators like the FCC push networks to remove personalities they don’t like.

"If comedians and talk show hosts aren’t safe, who is? And what’s more dangerous—bad jokes or a society that can’t tolerate them?"
— Jordan Harbinger [02:38]

• Lukianoff explains the true definition of cancel culture as a post-2014 campaign (from the left and right) to get people fired or expelled for legally protected speech, resulting in broad climate of fear.
• In Kimmel’s case, Lukianoff highlights state intervention (FCC and Trump administration threats about licensure and mergers) as what separates this from “just business.”

"This is totally like, nice business you got there. Wouldn't want anything to happen to it."
— Greg Lukianoff [17:47]

2. The Chilling Effect: Why Self-Censorship Is a Bigger Problem

[12:40], [13:43], [21:50]

• Both agree: When having an opinion costs your job, society has gone off the rails. Self-censorship is prevalent; people increasingly feel they “can have an opinion or a job, but not both.”
• Lukianoff: “If you live in a society where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both, that’s what it was starting to look like back in 2020.” [12:40]

Notable Example:

• The “marketplace of ideas” breaks down when people are too scared to speak—even about matters of policy, science, or social concern.

3. When the Censors Change Sides: Political Hypocrisy

[10:55], [18:39], [20:37], [21:16]

• The episode explores how arguments justifying censorship shift with political power—what was “consequence culture" on the left is now "consequence culture" on the right.
• Both administrations (Biden and Trump) have sought to pressure social platforms and media outlets:
  • Biden’s push against COVID 'misinformation'
  • Trump’s pressure on networks to silence critics
• Supreme Court’s reticence to intervene (e.g., Murthy v. Missouri) leaves the legal terrain unsettled and dangerous.

4. Free Speech Absolutism & Its Limits

[23:17], [24:20], [25:06]

• Lukianoff distinguishes himself as an "opinion absolutist":
  • "There is a value in knowing what people really think, full stop... you're not safer for knowing less about what people really think." [24:53]
• Free speech always has legal limits (incitement, defamation, true threats, obscenity), but Lukianoff and Harbinger argue the cultural value is in tolerating unpopular opinions.
• It’s better for bigotry to be out in the open than driven underground.

5. Campus Climate, Mob Censorship & Rising Intolerance for Dissent

[31:18] – [33:52], [34:05]

• FIRE’s research: Both left and right have become more willing to condone violence as a response to speech they don’t like (over 1 in 3 students, and >50% at some campuses: [31:18])
• Shutting down speakers (“shoutdowns”) and mob censorship on campuses undermines the foundation of academic freedom.
• Harbinger tie-in: The normalization of such tactics makes actual violence more likely and erodes any shared standard of open debate.

"That's mob censorship —the oldest form of censorship in the book."
— Greg Lukianoff [32:07]

6. Myths about Hate Speech & Legal Protections

[34:05] – [36:26]

• Common misconception: “Hate speech isn’t free speech.” Under U.S. law, it almost always is, unless it crosses into harassment or true threat.
• Lukianoff stresses the importance of high standards for harassment (severe, pervasive conduct) to prevent suppressing unpopular speech under vague accusations.

7. The Censorship Trap: History, International Context, and the Weimar Fallacy

[38:41], [40:51]

• Silencing bad ideas does not eradicate them—history (e.g., Nazi Germany, Europe’s hate speech laws) shows that driving hate speech underground can radicalize and code-ify bigots; they become “martyrs” rather than socially isolated.
• The “Weimar Fallacy”: Believing stricter hate speech laws would have stopped Hitler is historically wrong; there were such laws, and Nazis exploited censorship for PR.

"You told all the anti-Semites that they can only talk to other anti-Semites."
— Greg Lukianoff [39:49]

• Europe’s current “right to be forgotten” and hate speech criminalization underscore the danger to both innovation and liberty [67:40].

8. Speech as Violence, Incitement, and Real Harm

[47:09] – [48:06]

• Lukianoff: We must retire the argument that “speech IS violence.” While actual incitement and true threats are illegal, the threshold is and should be high.
• Allowing speech to be equated with violence justifies actual violence in response—creating an endless spiral.
• Campuses should be “safe physically, but very dangerous intellectually.” [48:06]

9. The Digital Age, Platform Moderation, and Government Pressure

[57:02] – [62:46]

• Private platforms aren’t legally required to host speech, but when governments pressure or regulate them, it opens the door to real abuse.
• Lukianoff: Competition and a diversity of platforms ("free market of ideas") provides more protection than government mandates.
• Social media’s lax enforcement on true threats has fostered public confusion about what is and isn't protected.

10. The Future of Free Speech—Why It Matters

[63:12] – [66:22]

• The consequences of weakening free speech reverberate beyond politics to all aspects of society—loss of innovation, transparency, and ability to challenge the powerful.
• Censors always believe they’re acting for “the greater good”—but history shows this always goes awry, and today’s technology vastly increases the scale of potential harm.
• Despite current pessimism, polling shows deep American support for free speech, and the societal (and economic) benefits are compelling.

"Free speech is how you know what problems you have in your society...it’s how you innovate, it’s how you actually make money, how you actually know things scientifically."
— Greg Lukianoff [65:00]

11. International Threats to Free Expression

[66:36] – [70:58]

• While Americans perceive free speech threats as a domestic issue, Lukianoff provides striking statistics:
  • UK: ~12,000 people arrested each year for speech, plus hundreds of thousands of “non-crime hate incidents” on record.
  • EU: “Right to be forgotten” allows the erasure of public crime records, stifling transparency.
  • Canada: Recent proposals allow life sentences for some speech-related offenses.
  • Iran/China: AI and tech dramatically enhance capacity for state surveillance and punishment.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's like the fire extinguisher business. When they're getting used a lot, that's a bad sign." — Jordan [04:25]
• "If you respond to speakers on campus with shout downs or, God forbid, respond with violence...that should get you punished, at minimum, expelled, and in some cases, probably arrested." — Greg [33:12]
• "Censorship doesn't change anyone's opinion. It teaches them: hey, since you can get in trouble, talk to people who already agree with you." — Greg [39:25]
• "There is not a moment in censorship history where the censor didn't think they were doing something very good." — Greg [63:27]

Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:37 | Greg - “Value in knowing what people really think...democratic value” | | 04:59 | Defining “cancel culture” and government 'jawboning' | | 07:19 | Charlie Kirk shooting, threats to open expression | | 10:55 | Both sides weaponizing 'consequence culture' | | 13:43 | Job vs. opinion—'culture of free speech' | | 14:47 | Jimmy Kimmel’s firing—live news update & legal implications | | 20:37 | Murthy v. Missouri, government pressure on social platforms | | 24:53 | “Opinion absolutist” and value of real beliefs | | 31:18 | Student survey: 30–52% justify violence for objectionable speech| | 34:05 | Hate speech is protected in the US except when true harassment | | 38:41 | Knowing bigots’ identities is valuable; Europe’s censorship failures| | 40:51 | The Weimar Fallacy & Nazi history lesson | | 47:09 | “Speech is violence” rhetoric and danger of escalating cycles | | 57:02 | Platform moderation, government overreach, the free market | | 62:46 | Personal threats, underenforcement of real abuse | | 63:27 | Good intentions of censors are always present—why that’s dangerous| | 66:36 | International perspective: UK, EU, Canada, China, and surveillance threats| | 71:27 | Comedy as a bellwether for free speech |

Tone & Style

• Candid, slightly irreverent, and intellectually rigorous, with both host and guest actively pushing to clarify debates, avoid partisanship, and dig into the real-world consequences of speech suppression.
• Humor appears throughout (e.g., “My inbox is a war crime” [25:40]), but the conversation returns repeatedly to the underlying seriousness of the theme.

Conclusion

This episode is a compelling, clear-eyed tour of the free speech landscape—in law, culture, and everyday life. Greg Lukianoff untangles legal misconceptions, exposes political hypocrisy, and issues a sharp warning: when society, its institutions, or its leaders grow too comfortable with censorship, everyone’s voice is at risk, and the repercussions are both immediate and generational.

For anyone concerned about the future of open discourse, this episode is essential listening.

Further resources:

• Greg Lukianoff’s book: The War on Words
• FIRE’s campus free speech rankings & research

If you found this episode relevant, consider sharing it with friends interested in free speech, academic freedom, or civil liberties.

(For show links, sponsor info, and resources, visit [jordanharbinger.com].)