1220: Andrew Bustamante | A Spy's Guide to Our Dangerous World Part One

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show
Episode 1220: Andrew Bustamante | A Spy's Guide to Our Dangerous World, Part One
Release Date: October 7, 2025

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Overview

In this engaging episode, former CIA operative Andrew Bustamante returns to the show to discuss the real world of espionage, covert communications, disinformation, the realities of modern spycraft, and why so many wealthy Americans are considering leaving the United States. Jordan and Andrew dive into Cold War tradecraft that remains effective today (like number stations and one-time pads), the shifting global landscape, Ukraine, surveillance states, the Mossad, and more—balancing deep intelligence insights with practical takeaways for the audience. The conversation covers not just the technicalities of being a spy but the mindset, real-world consequences, and cultural implications of global instability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cold War Tradecraft that Still Works Today

Number Stations and One-Time Pads

• What are Number Stations?

  • Shortwave radio broadcasts in which anonymous voices read out number sequences; historically and currently used to transmit encrypted messages to spies in the field.
  • “On shortwave radio there are these radio stations that are basically just like a disembodied voice that’s 1-14-72-45… it just goes forever… no one’s ever claimed responsibility.” – Jordan [04:04]

• Why Are They Still Used?

  • Government-run (not pirates) because of the cost and power needed to broadcast worldwide.
  • Extremely difficult to trace who is receiving the messages, giving plausible deniability and recipient anonymity.
  • The cryptography is essentially unbreakable due to the one-time pad system.
  • Shortwave radios remain valuable as resilient, hard-to-jam fallback systems—still carried as part of intelligence “resilience kits.”
    “All you need is a shortwave receiver and the one-time pad. Even if NSA can’t break the message, they also can’t tell who’s receiving it.” – Andrew [11:02]

• Spy Life: Receiving Messages

  • Spies like Jack Barsky would spend hours decoding messages that could be mundane (“All is okay. Moscow sends its regards”) yet risked their lives for safe communication.
    “He would just go and sit in his home office, lock himself in every Thursday night... it would be like, ‘all is okay, nothing to report,’ but it took four hours.” – Jordan [12:31]

Who Uses These Methods Today?

• Countries with limited technological resources (Nigeria, Pakistan, Malaysia), states evading Western surveillance, even covert communications between allied or adversarial nations.
• “It sounds silly to us as wealthy Americans... but if you’re in an under-resourced intelligence service, it’s incredibly effective.” – Andrew [14:11]

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The Wealthy’s Flight from America & Dual Citizenship Strategy

Why are Rich Americans Preparing to Leave?

• Andrew’s personal plan: his family is preparing to relocate (by “spring of 2027”) for a second citizenship and security reasons.
• He cites data that “53% of wealthy Americans—defined as net worth of $5M or more—have already left the US in terms of investment or dual citizenship.” [17:44]

Motivations:

• Security, instability, and economic uncertainty in the US.
• A desire for their children to learn a second language, gain alternative citizenship, and develop a global outlook.
• “Our main driving force... is to get them a second citizenship, not just residency, so they can choose for the rest of their lives.” – Andrew [16:48]
• Wealthy Americans see diversification not just of funds but personal status/passports as essential “escape strategy, growth strategy, or something else.” [18:10]

Practical Tips:

• Even non-wealthy people can pursue other citizenship through ancestry or employment abroad; small steps can open doors internationally.
• “If my kids have a Taiwan passport and a US passport, then they marry someone French or Spanish... my grandkids are Moroccan, Spanish, Taiwanese Americans—it opens so many doors.” – Jordan [29:36]
• “You can apply to become a teacher in South Korea and start on the path to a second passport that way…” – Andrew [32:09]

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The Realities of Exiting the CIA

Leaving Is Hard by Design

• “CIA is a little bit like the mafia or a cult. They make it very hard for you to leave… They want you to go out, fail, and come crawling back.” [33:05]
• No transition support; ex-staff face a ‘resume gap’ with fake jobs as cover that are unverifiable and hinder employment elsewhere.
• Overt officers (analysts, tech, etc.) can list their CIA work, but covert officers cannot; this makes post-CIA life uniquely challenging.

Business Afterlife:

• Networks of CIA alumni help each other due to these shared difficulties.
• “The real world is a very difficult place to be. When you're inside... your life is dangerous at times, but otherwise, it's pretty good.” – Andrew [37:01]
• Attempts to create “CIA alumni” consultancies often fail because most lack business experience, expecting a government-like structure even in business.

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The "American Abroad" Advantage (and Perceptual Hazards)

Cultural Realities

• Americans overseas, especially in pro-American countries, are often treated better and afforded more opportunities compared to locals.
• In anti-American cultures, the opposite is true.
  “People are going to help you find an apartment, job, or business just because you’re American… That does not happen here in the US.” – Andrew [25:00]

Personal Anecdotes:

• Jordan shares stories about being in Serbia and meeting Russians in the US, highlighting the mix of foe/friend perceptions.
• “If you think about it, what would happen in Missouri if a Cuban moved in? Some would be wary, but many would invite them over—simply because they’re different.” – Andrew [26:34]
• They offer survival tips for dealing with corrupt or authoritarian states—“duck into any fancy hotel or business, and local police will usually leave you alone.” [58:17]

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The Modern World: Proxy Conflicts and What Counts as 'World War'

World War III: Already Started?

• Andrew argues that by today’s definition, “world war” is happening now.
  “There are 161 active conflicts globally—most involving multiple countries, not just local actors. That makes this a world war.” [48:36]
• Modern world wars involve proxy conflicts, cyber war, and economic warfare—versus battlefield clashes.

Ukraine: Who's Really Winning?

• Despite Western perceptions, Andrew thinks Putin is winning in Ukraine:
  “If anybody thinks Putin’s not winning in Ukraine, I’d love to hear your logic.” – Andrew [52:21]
• Russia has maintained control of 17%-20% of Ukrainian territory. The US and Europe’s support is waning.
• Ukraine conflict is a proving ground for new technologies (e.g., drones) and for learning lessons in modern warfare.
• Both Russia and the West are expecting lucrative reconstruction/capital contracts when fighting ends.
• “We want to be able to rebuild Ukraine when the war ends… have American businesses win the rebuilding contracts… Likewise, Putin knows he’s going to boost his economy by rebuilding Eastern Ukraine.” – Andrew [59:49]

Shifting Tactics and Dangers

• Use of drones, EW, and cyber means make the battlefield more dynamic.
• The line between local and global conflict blurs as more states and non-state actors gain access to advanced tech.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Cold War Craft

• “Shortwave radio and number stations are still more resilient than any digital comms—no metadata, no receiver attribution. That’s why they haven’t gone away.” – Andrew [10:03]

On Dual Citizenship and the American Experience

• “We want our children to live, breathe, and see what it’s like abroad so they can come to truly appreciate why it is worth the fight to stay a free America.” – Andrew [20:07]

On Ukraine

• “The conflict is a sunk cost for us… We paid to learn about drone warfare without getting hit ourselves. Now we want the contracts when it’s time to rebuild.” – Andrew [59:49]
• “Putin has always said he just doesn’t want Ukraine in NATO. Four years later, we look back and that’s still his position. That consistency plays into Western logic.” – Andrew [61:33]

On the CIA

• “CIA is a little bit like the mafia. They make it very hard for you to leave, and put you in ‘leave without pay’ so it’s easier to bring you back if you fail.” – Andrew [33:05]
• “If you were a middle manager for a tire company for eight years in Dubai… try explaining that on your resume when nobody can verify it.” – Andrew [36:02]

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Other Important Segments & Timestamps

• Discussion start / Number stations: [02:55] – [15:25]
• Shortwave radios in modern espionage: [06:23], [08:54]
• Andrew’s personal relocation plans & wealthy Americans’ exodus: [16:18] – [20:30]
• Benefits and challenges of living abroad: [24:56] – [32:31]
• Life after the CIA: [32:31] – [44:23]
• World War III / modern conflicts: [48:19] – [54:07]
• The Ukraine situation and Western interests: [54:08] – [62:12]
• Corruption in Ukraine: [56:05] – [57:28]
• Pro tips for travelers under authoritarian regimes: [57:45] – [59:19]
• US allies, unpredictability, and global finance: [62:04] – [63:34]

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Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, peppered with dark humor, real-world anecdotes, and practical advice, blending intelligence lingo with relatable stories. Jordan's curiosity and self-effacing jokes balance Andrew's direct, insightful takes, making heavy geopolitical realities more accessible.

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For those interested in espionage, international affairs, expat life, or just how the world really works, this episode is packed with intelligence (in every sense of the word).

Transcript

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to the show i'm jordan harbinger on the jordan harbinger show we decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You can use to impact your own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Life and those around you our mission is to help you become a better informed more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to ceo's athletes authors thinkers and performers even the occasional arms dealer former jihadi gold smuggler money laundering expert or russian spy and if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show i suggest our episode starter packs these are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation psychology and geopolitics disinformation china north korea crime and cults and more to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show just visit jordanharbinger dot com start or search for us in your spotify app to get started today once again back on the show for another round is andrew bustamante of everyday spy former cia tradecraft teacher of spy school and the guy who can make number stations and one time pads sound downright cozy we're ripping into covert communications disinformation campaigns deepfakes and why millions of wealthy americans are whispering about leaving the country we'll talk ukraine iran surveillance states the mossad epstein's intelligence ties what spies actually look for in a story and the that still works in a digital world here we go with andrew bustamante man every time i see you you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Got more hair more hair it's almost like it grows out of your head.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

It won't happen much longer though now.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You'Re going to get rid of it.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Yes donating it to charity oh okay.

[Andrew Bustamante]

That'S cool you went from silent operative to sideshow bob sideshow bob that's exactly.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

What it feels like oh good this.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Is a weird way to start the show but you're one of the only people who might know about this have you heard of number stations yes yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Can you explain it actually or is.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

It'S a british phenomenon i'm pretty sure.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It'S actually international this is fascinating and feel free to chime in where possible i found this and i was like i got to include this even if it's not that relevant because it's fricking interesting so on shortwave radio there are these radio stations that are basically just like a disembodied voice that's one fourteen seventy two forty five and it just goes for forever and then it'll stop after i don't know half an hour an hour ninety minutes whatever and it goes like bing bong and then it'll just start again with the same sequence of numbers and it does that and then it changes like a week later or something and there's no call sign nobody's ever claimed responsibility for them and people think that they're international because you can hear sometimes people have an accent sometimes it's in spanish sometimes it's in russian british accent whatever it is and on shortwave for people who don't know because we're in the digital age i'm going to get this wrong probably but the radio waves they bounce off the ionosphere so they can go around the earth they don't just go straight like am fm radio and they can go really far and i used to listen to these up at my cottage up north cause we didn't have much radio it was like rural area so you had like a crappy blurry fm one wwj which is like my dad's news radio ninety five or nine hundred fifty whatever and then you had shortwave and i got this shortwave like a garage sale and it's creepy right and you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Could listen to like international music but.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Then the other stations that have numbers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On there so when i was older i was like i wonder if i can find what those were because back.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Then you had no clue but now we got the internet i'll google it this is amazing so first of all i thought maybe it was pirate radio.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But then the government really tries to.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Find pirate radio stations so how are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They not finding closing down these number.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Stations if it's pirate radio okay so it's not pirate radio but no one knows who they are and there's no.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Call sign isn't that illegal so the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Only person who could run that is the government or a foreign government and turned out that's what they are so big time nerds found out where they were coming from because they're super expensive to run a powerful radio station that goes around the world is not something you could run at least in the eighties seventies eighties from like your backyard not going to happen that was tens of thousands of dollars hundreds of thousands of dollars millions of dollars to run something like that and they were also coming from cuba the soviet union the us uk australia and places like warsaw stuff like that and it turns out that this is a cryptography pattern so this is where you come in right this is a cryptography pattern called a one time pad do you know much.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

About these absolutely yeah so what you're getting at is really exciting not just for nerds but for operators too because you're hitting on multiple really cool tradecraft elements that are genuine not like the movies there's a movie called number station.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Oh okay never heard of it that's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

How popular the movie was right but the point is when you have actual encryption and cryptography an element of one time use meaning the code is only valid once there's one time pads that relate to books pages and books words on certain pages and books there's also one time pads that relate to radio broadcasts and what it means is that when something happens you'll have literally imagine a pad of paper and that pad of paper says something like january first eleven o' clock on the first of january at eleven o' clock whatever number comes from the channel that you're listening to correlates to an instruction in a separate manual and then you rip that page out and you throw it away.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Yeah or burn it for dramatic effect.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Then february second at two o' clock there's going to be another number and if you get that number at that time then you know it correlates to the instruction if you don't get that number at that time you still tear out the page and you throw it away it's very similar in the nuclear missile silos they don't have a pad but they do have a literal ream of paper with punches in it and you feed the punched paper into the actual machine and anything that happens for twenty four hours it basically is dictated by the holes in that encryption i.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Remember in the hunt for red october i think i remember gene hackman in denzel washington maybe or something like that.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

I can see the face but i don't remember the name either way they.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Were going through the thing and they.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Cracked open these plastic containers that looked really cool in the eighties cause you're like oh you can't just make that yourself of course you can now but you know they cracked it open they looked at the thing and that was like the code that they had to type in and so this one time pad it can't be cracked because it's only used once and then never again.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Unless you have a copy of the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Pad but like i couldn't just get that sheet and then reverse engineer the code and read future messages it's only used for that one message and that's probably a really basic way of explaining it but i thought all right shortwave we don't use that anymore we have digital encryption and it turns out that's not true either they still use shortwave radio which is amazing i thought this doesn't even exist anymore who would use this in the age of the internet.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

So there are a couple of things that we fired off that are not fully accurate first shortwave radio and pirate radio aren't always the same thing pirate radio is when like an fm station or even an am station gets pirated and is used it's just an illegal broadcast where shortwave radio is actually controlled by a whole different set of governing rules pirate radio that the government tries to crack down on versus number station or even i don't know even dissenting shortwave radio the government's gonna have a very hard time intercepting and finding the location of a shortwave dissenting radio station.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Yeah well what i meant by that was simply that if there's an illegal shortwave radio station you can be discovered easily the government and the fcc in the united states goes and finds that and it's easy to find but also no one's gonna have a million dollar broadcast antenna set up for a pirate station so that's why people were confused about these because wait this is from and it's crystal clear in spanish this is not some dude on a beach in cuba screwing around this is a government installation same ones from the united.

[Jordan Harbinger]

States and most shortwave radio was just.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Like it's like bbc or something and you can just hear the news from the uk in the us before the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Internet and still not so they still use this now and it doesn't really.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Matter where it comes from right because you know the russian one comes from the soviet union during the cold war.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

You actually don't know that that's what makes it so scary that's what makes it so powerful russians can send propagandists to canada and broadcast from canada and now you can have a stronger signal carrying a russian message from even an allied country because it's very hard to identify the source of that shortwave transmission.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Oh really i heard that it was totally easy to find the source of a shortwave transmission it depends on the.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Strength of the transmission how many resources you're putting into it but essentially the reason that this is so useful even still to operators today is because a communicator can carry a shortwave radio in a pack and then anywhere you are if you have primary secondary and tertiary systems all fail satellites fail or they get jammed primary vhf signals get jammed or fail batteries fail or there's some kind of problem some other way you can always pull out a shortwave radio and you can always bounce it off the moon bounce it off the ionosphere bounce it in a direction where somebody knows to pick it up and now all of a sudden you have a very resilient form of communication that's why it's so useful and so cheap and as soon as you pack up that radio and walk again next signals from.

[Andrew Bustamante]

A different place that's fascinating i didn't realize that the small ones could broadcast i just thought they were receivers apparently what they're still used for basically a shortwave receiver is like ten bucks on amazon if i'm your handler or something or you're trying to communicate secrets to me we could use something like signal or whatever digital encrypted communication but then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even if no one can decrypt it.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Which of course the nsa is working on all that stuff slash can do all of that they still know that's me talking to you or they'll figure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It out and that's not good if.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You'Re like a chinese dissident working in their nuclear program talking with somebody in washington dc right it's like we don't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Know what you're saying but you're probably.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Not ordering doordash so we're going to arrest you and take care of business.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But with the shortwave radios since they go all over the world even if.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You know that that signal is coming from moscow like the cia figured it out you have no idea who's listening.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To it everyone in the world is.

[Andrew Bustamante]

A candidate to be listening to this it's impossible essentially to identify the recipient.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because even if you could figure out.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Who was listening to that which you can't tens of thousands of people are listening to that because they're like screwing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Around with a shortwave radio that's only.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

If they know how to find that signal so you're exactly right and this is why it's so viable even today yes we live in a very digital signal saturated environment there's constant signals radio signals cellular signals vhf signals uhf signals line of sight signals there's just an incredible amount of noise so communicating a message is nothing more than having a receiver on the same frequency as a transmitter communicating something that makes sense to the transmitter and the receiver even better if the actual information that's being transmitted isn't the content that's really being communicated that's the problem with our encrypted signals our encrypted tools like signal or telegram or whatsapp the actual message is what's being carried over so you can crack that encryption at the source of the signal or at the source of the recipient but if you can get either encryption key you can hack the whole thing and that's assuming you don't hack some other backend process the israelis are always working on nsa is always working on gchq at the uk are always working on so when you have a literal transmission that's carrying nothing of significance because the only person who knows what it means has the one time pad.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So the cuba station cuban intelligence talking to people maybe in miami or all over the us and canada it doesn't matter and you can't tell who's getting that message they have a one time pad there's another guest from the show jack barsky former east german spy he talked about using these number stations and that was what prompted me to look into this again cause i was like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I remember those from being a kid and he would just go and sit.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In his home office lock himself in every thursday night or whatever it was it was so freaking tedious because he'd have to spend like four hours writing all the numbers wait for it to go again check all the numbers use the one time pad and it would be like all is okay your family's fine moscow sends its regards and he's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like are you fricking me you know like whatever no nothing to report like.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It'S just nothing to report but it took four hours to communicate that and used a bunch of obfuscating language because you don't want to say the same number sequence over and over when it means nothing so it's like they had to bury the lead it's not that.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Efficient but it kept him safe as an illegal russian spy inside the united states that's how effective they are it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is they still use this which i.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Thought was crazy just because one encryption pinpoints the receiver and you never want to do that and i don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess my question to you is.

[Andrew Bustamante]

What kind of content gets transmitted on a number station right now is it specific stuff for a specific person yes but what kind of instructions get communicated to people in the field using something.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Like this because it's a one time pad it means that the person who creates the pad and the person who creates the sequence that gets read can choose how many messages it carries it could carry a message at one o' clock a different message at two o' clock and a different message at three o' clock for three different people in three different parts of the world with three different messages so jack's receiving something on thursday night at four there's six other days of the week there's twenty three other hours of the day everybody could theoretically have a different one time pat it doesn't have to be thirteen people with the same one time pat.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I see that makes sense because if one person gets caught the messages from.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Everybody else are still secure exactly now when you think about the utility of something like this it sounds silly to us as wealthy americans where we have one of the world's leading intelligence services we're like why wouldn't you do something more efficient put yourself in the shoes of a nigerian intelligence service or put yourself in the shoes of a pakistani intelligence service or a malaysian intelligence service now all of a sudden you don't have the budget or enough viability to actually reach into the deep expensive tech because what you're trying to collect on is something that even your own government doesn't see as a huge priority dissidents and people who are speaking out against.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Whatever or you're trying to keep a secret from the united states and the west and you know that your satellites.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Are owned right so you also have the opportunity where countries are talking to each other myanmar could be talking to vietnam using a number station a pad between the two of them so now it's a whole different not necessarily diplomatic channel but an effective collaboration tool for something else you name it yeah that's.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Interesting it would have to be a non diplomatic channel right because otherwise you would just say oh yeah we had a transportation meeting then you just wouldn't talk not open source exactly weird show open but i've been fascinated by those for a while because i used to just listen to them and i would just listen to some guy with a rough cuban spanish accent be like uno then i like okay like what is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He doing or german or russian because look man eighties kids that was the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Only foreign language exposure that i had yeah at all for i don't know fifteen years except for like middle school french that's not very interesting it's an old lady who's telling you to sit up straight in your chair it's not cool like russian and cuban spanish and german was during the cold war because you know it would be like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is from east berlin this is pretty freaking cool man even though it could.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Have been coming from madison wisconsin could.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Have been coming from madison wisconsin yeah that's true that's true i got to look this up because i could swear that when i researched this it was just relatively trivial to find the source but it doesn't matter because if you know it's in the soviet union what are you going to do about it it's that you can't know you can't find out where it's going like the source you can find but where it's going you can't the recipient you can't.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Find and it also doesn't matter if you have twelve sources as long as they're all reading the same sequence at the same time in the same frequency.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You mentioned last time you were on which i think was twenty twenty three.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Maybe yeah it was two years ago.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You said oh i might leave america twenty twenty seven we're right on schedule are you thinking about doing that still.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Absolutely not even thinking about it that is the target spring of twenty seven is the actual it's on our calendar in our google documents that's when we.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Are wheels up where are you going to go or is that a secret.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Yeah we're not telling anybody where we're going gotcha we'll give you a list of our favorite places but first of.

[Andrew Bustamante]

All why twenty twenty seven just because of the kids schooling stuff or what.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

We were looking at twenty thirty as like our drop dead but then as the world has changed from twenty twenty three till today we've also decided to kind of increase our timeline there's a lot of things that go into it we want our children to have a second language we want our children to try to get a citizenship in a foreign country which means that we need to be cognizant of when they turn eighteen which matters and then you've got different countries with different requirements for citizenship blah blah blah blah so there's a lot of things there but the main driving force for my wife and for me related to our kids is to get them a second citizenship citizenship not residency so they have a second passport so they can choose for the rest of their life whether they want to show the blue passport or some other passport right but then simultaneously to that you also have very real security concerns in the united states there's very real economic concerns in the united states and diversity options are a benefit and that's not just for us we're actually finding that fifty three percent of wealthy americans meaning americans with a net worth of five million dollars or more fifty three percent of them have already left the united states in terms of investment or dual citizenship or golden visas i see.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Interesting so if i invest in something abroad that's considering leaving the united states.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

If you invest to an extent where you can now essentially live there half the year or live there for longer so if you buy property if you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Buy a business i might have to get that citation that sounds like a.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Lot it is a lot it's expected to hit sixty percent in the next two years one out of every two wealthy americans are already diversifying their interests outside of the united states giving themselves essentially an escape strategy growth strategy or.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Something else yeah i guess technically we fall into that because our kids have some documents from taiwan slash china even i'm like the papers are in the system or whatever and i basically have to just start paying insurance and then it's like as soon as i set foot there the clock starts going and then you get a residence and then you convert that to a passport and then china invades and you end up chinese lol right no but not really but it's possible like my friends are always joking they're like so you're just going to be a white chinese guy and i'm like it could happen happened in hong kong yeah exactly happened in hong kong and those people i think they still have hong kong passports but that's just an administrative they could phase those out tomorrow and reissue china passports where do people have it better europe is good man but there's a lot of reasons that europe is maybe not going to be super stable have you seen the defense stocks in europe are going up that's usually not going to.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Be the same thing in the united states well yeah it's important people like to throw around generalized terms like better i would argue there's no place safer where is it safer and again safer can some ways be a generic term sure so i don't want people to think of it in terms of safer or better or really anything that ends in an er it's really a question of for you individually where do you see the most opportunity for what you're trying to achieve for us if we want our children to have a second citizenship we want our children to have fluency in a second language we want our children to also understand how special the united states is because here's what's sad and depressing ninety eight percent of americans have no concept of how actually different and special the united states is.

[Andrew Bustamante]

No of course not you can see the discourse online i'm going to move.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To north korea my brother in christ go for it please spend a week.

[Andrew Bustamante]

There and don't run swimming back to.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

The united states people don't understand how special it is here and you can't explain it and you can't define it and you can't watch it in a movie and be like oh i really appreciate being american you have to live it you have to live it you have to see it and we want that for our children we want them to live breathe see feel what it's like to be even just abroad for an extended period of time so they can come to truly appreciate why it is worth the fight to stay a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Free america thinking about fleeing the country here in twenty twenty seven at least stick around through this ad break first we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by drip drop people who know me know i'm big on.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Staying hydrated sure it means i'm running to the bathroom a bunch of times.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A day but honestly it's one of the simplest healthiest things i can do for myself but here's the thing water alone isn't enough when you sweat when.

[Andrew Bustamante]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Managed to book all of these great authors thinkers and creators every week it.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Is because of my network the circle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of people i know like and trust something i've actually taught to spies before.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Now that i think about it i'm.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking dot com comma you're probably not recruiting foreign intelligence assets but hey what do i know the course really is about improving your relationship building skills in very practical down to earth non cringy ways i taught this here in the united states to three letter agencies and to other agencies in other countries that i probably shouldn't even mention anyway six minutes a day is all it takes and many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course come join us you'll be in smart company where you belong you can find the course again for free at sixminutenetworking dot com now back to andrew bustamante.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I'M curious what your perspective is on the middle east i wouldn't move there i don't want to live under an authoritarian regime of any kind and i don't know if you can find a place in the middle east that's not really touched by.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

That or don't tell them that yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante]

No of course of course not but also i have a little girl and i want to subject her to a lot of that stuff and i think that's going to offend people but i.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don'T know if i care is it controversial that women don't have the same kind of treatment in the middle east as they do in the united states.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

You have an american girl yeah she's fine if you are born a muslim arabic girl that's a different story well yeah especially if you're born a poor muslim arabic girl that's completely different than a wealthy arabic muslim girl so you're.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Saying that since i'm a foreigner we're outsiders we would be there's leeway when it comes to that kind of thing.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

That'S a super important distinction man because when people try to make the argument like oh where are you going to find this better than the united states if you're an american there are lots of options where you have more opportunities than you do in the united states an american living abroad in spain has better opportunities than any spaniard and better opportunities than any american in the united.

[Andrew Bustamante]

States say more about that because i think a lot of people are not.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Sure how that works so when you're an american abroad depending on what community you land in they may already have a preferential opinion of the united states and they're going to bend over backwards to help you support you become your friend you're going to find people more interested in helping and and supporting your business your family your job hunt et cetera just because you are american whereas here in the united states you're just another american so why the f would anybody try to help you where abroad they want to help you because of course they want to be friends with an american they want access to the american dollar they want access to your network they might just think that you're super rich because to them you are super rich even though you make thirty five thousand dollars a year who knows right so that opens up opportunities immediately just because of a passport that you're carrying people are going to help you find an apartment they're going to help you furnish it they're going to help you find everything you can think of that does not happen here in the united states now simultaneously if you go to a anti american country you can expect the opposite you can expect immediate criticism immediate bias you can expect people to bully you or push you around and that's your choice if that's what you want to do or if you're an american traveling on a canadian passport you can hide that you know what.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Though i will say i wanted to go to a place that was anti american so i went to serbia in two thousand four i was like we just bombed this place surely everyone hates americans you know what there was a lot of that but it was also.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like pretty cool man you're from the united states i've never been there we.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Hate you guys but you're cool i.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Mean it's fine tell me more about where you grew up people were like you're the enemy but also never met an american before the only american i.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Met was a guy we took prisoner in bosnia and we didn't get to talk to him very much people actually.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Told me that it's funny i mean if you think about it what would happen honestly put yourself anywhere in missouri or minnesota and a cuban moves in there's going to be plenty of people who are like there's a cuban down the street but there's going to be even more people who are like i've.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Never met a cuban that's right let's.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Invite him over for dinner let's invite.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Him over for dinner but like three other people moved into the neighborhood why are you inviting the fucking cuban guy because he's a cuban guy exactly right i want to learn their music i've always wondered about plantains who knows why but they're going to get extra attention just because they're different man when he.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It was probably nineteen eighty nine my neighbor had a russian guy come and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Stay at his house and i was.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Like a russian guy my parents were.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like really wow what is he like.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And i was like he has offensively strong body odor and i was a little kid so he seemed like a giant he had like a huge beard and i remember being like this guy has not had a bath in a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really really long time he was super.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Nice guy super friendly guy and i remember him just being blown away we had a computer in the house and he was like what is this machine because he'd never seen one before computers were relatively new then anyway and he had never seen one and then he.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Was like i can't believe that everybody has a car he's like i don't.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Even know anybody who has a car in the soviet union i don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A single person that has one there's.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Taxis that's it those are the things i remember him telling us because the english was pretty limited but yeah we were fascinated by this guy he broadened.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Your understanding of life even if it wasn't light years he broadened you more than the average person who couldn't even conceptualize the idea of somebody not an adult not having a car although i.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Will say that stereotype that all the russians were like big strong bears we were like that part's true i remember his hands were so huge they like eclipse again i was a kid but you know i've shaken an adult hand this guy was like really strong and he would pick us up and throw.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Us around because that was another thing that he wasn't afraid to wrestle around.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And throw us around the house was fun and he was less gentle i think than a lot of other people and you could tell he like loved kids and was just a fun dude but he couldn't speak so he had to do a lot more of that anyway you're right the whole like oh this person's an enemy it doesn't really hold up at the cultural level it's more of like a policy level kind.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Of thing so when we talk about that more opportunity thing because that's how we got on that right more opportunities if you're an american living abroad in a pro american state but then when you start thinking about your children when you start thinking about your own kind of long term maybe health or well being my wife's not secret dream is that our children will meet and fall in love with non american children or non american fiances or spouses or whatever right and then immediately be children of the world because they'll get married and they'll have the new citizenship that they're marrying into the citizenship that we help them receive plus their american citizenship their children will have the choice of all three and not only does that give you options than just community but it's every one of them has a different educational system every one of them has a different welfare system every one of them has a different healthcare system every one of them has different access to other countries the united states cannot go to iran if you carry a turkish passport you can walk right into iran and that's not to say that you want to go to iran but you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Might want to research it before you.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Do but you can but there's options.

[Andrew Bustamante]

No it's true i've done the math on this before and it's okay if my kids have a taiwan passport or chinese passport and us passport and then they marry somebody who has a french passport and a spanish passport or a moroccan passport then my grandkids will be moroccan spanish taiwanese americans now what makes.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

You even go down that path do you see what i mean it's just.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Interesting also healthcare system like my insurance policy is if i get debilitating cancer kaiser permanente is like oh see that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Line forty eight of page three hundred.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Six sorry i'm like well i'm going to taipei because i've been paying dollar thirty a month for health insurance for twenty years i'm going to have them cure my cancer and it's a big better healthcare system in the united states.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Anyways and right there demonstrates to me that wealthy way of thinking you can put thirty dollars a month into something that you don't even see and then the idea of relocating your whole house not to another state but to another country on the other side of the world that is clearly in the crosshairs of a nearby neighbor even when you do all that you're still like yeah we can do that we'll drop fifteen thousand dollars or seven thousand dollars or however much to fly everybody and relocate there in a heartbeat the average household can't even conceptualize it they can try they can ask and borrow money from friends they can take a loan they can sell their car and have ten thousand dollars in cash tomorrow but they don't even think of it that is literally a mindset of the wealthy because the wealthy are always trying to protect.

[Andrew Bustamante]

The assets they have i think also partly i've always been this way right i was an exchange student in high school that got me thinking internationally from an early age then i studied abroad because i was like hey you don't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have to take accounting one hundred one.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In calculus you can get other credits you screw around in like this place and then they caught onto that and they're like no we're going to make people take those classes there and i'm.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like what if i go to a.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Place that doesn't have an official university of michigan study abroad program they're like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We have it in thirty two countries.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And i'm like what about ukraine and they're like no can i go there yeah but we have to approve it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay fine i'm taking russian and ukraine.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Which i did and they were like fine i feel like half of my life's achievements were reluctantly handed me like here you go you son of a bitch i'm watching you you technically what's it called malicious compliance where you're like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'M going to follow this to the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

T to your own detriment and even though that's not what you intended you know make your own concentration study abroad in a place that they didn't approve but they said their hands are tied they have to anyway you're right a lot of people don't conceptualize this but i think this show i try to help people do that because you don't have to be a millionaire to get a second passport you just have to go my grandpa was irish and then.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You got to mail in some forms.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And three hundred bucks and suddenly you're irish too or whatever you can apply.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

To become a teacher in south korea and then once you go to south korea as a teacher and then once you're there you can flip your visa and you can be like i'd like to work towards residency now and you can still teach so now you're getting paid to live somewhere else to work towards a second passport you're learning a second language on your own right so there's all sorts of opportunities all over the world if like you said someone can open your eyes to them just.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Pay attention to those things switching gears a little bit i'm wondering what kind of guidelines slash training that you can talk about that the cia gives you after you leave because i know you probably can't associate with certain people it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Seems like you can't even probably go.

[Andrew Bustamante]

To certain places and talk about certain things even inside your own house because i think it's like okay we know andrew worked in the middle east and his wife also we're going to monitor them you can't just be like remember.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That time we did that thing in.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Dubai it's like you can't do that you still have to almost pretend like you're still in the game yeah it's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

A great question there's no training that they give you after you leave when you leave cia cia is a little bit like the mafia i was going.

[Andrew Bustamante]

To say so the mafia are a.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Cult yeah so they make it very hard for you to leave they put as many disincentives as possible into the process of leaving they don't help you find a job they don't clear your background they don't help you with your resume they don't give you any kind of transition assistance which is what you get in the military they want you to go out they want you to fail and they want you to come crawling back i know when my wife and i left we were two of five people in our peer group meaning the group that started with us in two thousand seven by twenty fourteen when we left we knew of three other people who had left in the same year that we left two of the five came back within six months within.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Six months because they just couldn't get.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

A job because they couldn't make it work one of them was a finance guy who was like oh fuck this i'm done with this because i can go make a bunch of money in finance turns out that once he got out there the finance guy went out there got a job right away and the job was like a finance job it was fifteen hours a day thirteen hours a day no weekends off no freedom like he made a shit ton of money but he had actual responsibility so then he was like i want to come back to cia where i leave my work in the office and i really only have to work like government hours yeah i get to see my kids again yeah so my wife and i we did not go back we struggled for a long time because that's how we ended up forming our own business was because we couldn't find a way to get a job another.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Way the resume gap what were you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Doing for fourteen years you would at least be able to say i was in the cia and then nothing else.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

You can't you can't even say that so depending on your cover you have different gaps in resume there are a lot of what's known as an overt cia officers overt cia officers aren't undercover so there is no technical resume gap they are employed by cia in a certain year and then when they write their resume they claim it oh so.

[Andrew Bustamante]

They say like i was a russia analyst for the central intelligence agency for the last eight years correct their tax.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Records pay them they have a history with the irs their mortgage says that they're cia employees they're not covert so overt people have no break in resume which is part of the reason why cia saw such a huge exodus with the first trump administration because they lost analysts and cartographers and creatives and alias docs people and you name logisticians tech people because they were overt and they could immediately make the jump to google or openai or whatever else but covert officers when they sign up they sign a secrecy agreement they sign two different secrecy agreements that are specifically related to the release of information related to their operational activity your cover is part of your operational activity so when you are a covert cia intelligence officer which is about ten percent of the whole body of cia now cia controls everything so they can tell you what can and can't be put on your resume they can literally line out certain words that you use in your resume and when the time comes that you leave they essentially provide your exit resume which with your cover identity still in the resume because they need to go through a cover rollback period where they review your operational background before they can clear it.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So it says like fry cook for.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Seven years in dubai and you can no shit dude oh my you can laugh all you want but that's terrible literally there's a you're a middle manager for a tire company and here are your references and here's all your accomplishments and it's all fake so that when anybody calls your references there's no answer when they email the company there's no response and so nobody can verify or validate what you did for those three seven twelve fifteen years do you want.

[Andrew Bustamante]

To explain this and you're like i can't and then they're like all right weirdo who is probably in prison thanks.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

For coming in who's lying about their resume exactly right and that's something that cia puts out there because when you leave they don't put you in a terminated status they put you in a leave without pay status so that it's that much easier to process you when you come crawling back in turns out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I can't get a job oh really.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Oh that's so sad luckily i just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Happen to have your desk already set up we still have that cat thing that does the arm wave on your desk it's still it's still cranking you might have to reset the clock that's.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Crazy to me man it's brilliant it's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Brilliant right they make it so hard they put so much money into training you they don't want to lose you and they also understand that when you're inside cia you don't know how the real world works and that's something that's important to the real world is a very difficult place to be and when you are part of an elite unit like a clandestine cia officer your life is dangerous at times but otherwise it's pretty good you're paid a government salary you never take work home you can't really work on the weekends they can't call you in on the weekends unless it's going to look really suspicious so you end up looking like a normal person and that's if you're not in some sort of privileged cover position like a coo or a cfo or an investor or an innovator where you're driving nice cars staying in excellent hotel flying first class everywhere if you're in a really privileged position life is super easy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For you that's what i wonder because.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I'M like okay he's got a law degree let's make him a corporate lawyer let's put him in like a oil and gas related industry in the united.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Arab emirates okay so my cover is.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I'M a multimillionaire attorney with a bunch of cars a driver a chef an assistant a full office backup and i fly on our company this is like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'M not going any no i want.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

To be a real corporate lawyer where.

[Andrew Bustamante]

My boss gives me shit every day and calls me in at eleven pm on a sunday to wait for a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fax nobody's ever going to do that.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

And that's a big part of why cia wants us to have just enough space to hang ourselves you want to leave you can leave go see what the real world is like go see how hard it is to find a.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Job it's like amish people you know how they have roomspringer where they're like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No no no you want to leave the community and go experience the world for four years go ahead and then.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Guys are like i'm going to meet so many girls and then it's like mom i'm coming home you know like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They have a couple beers and they.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Where'S my assigned wife yeah they're like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is pretty hard there's a lot.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Of bad shit going on out here even driving is tough most of them come back home obviously what's in the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

President'S daily brief you have any idea.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

So the president's daily brief it's interesting there is such a cool process behind the pdb what we call the pdb the president's daily brief where you've got specific people who come in early to coalesce the intel the raw intel from the night before and then they prioritize it for specific briefers because the pdb is actually briefed to the president it is a document but the document comes with a handful of dedicated pdb presenters.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This sounds like the coolest thing like i would love to show up and be like tell me what's going on.

[Andrew Bustamante]

With that weird coup in nepal and someone's like well i've spent the last ten years analyzing nepal and this is my area and i'm going to explain.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It to you like you're five years.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Old from the beginning to the end i want to do that all day.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Ah because that would be way cooler.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That would be way cooler in fact.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

What it is is it's some middle management analyst who's trying to get the next checkbox on their promotion becomes the dedicated briefer they don't actually have a deep expertise they probably have a deep expertise in one thing kissing the president's ass but the experts the expertise is not what dictates what they brief on okay here's like your northern hemisphere briefer here's your eastern hemisphere briefer etcetera etc here's your imminent threat briefer and these briefers all show up every day to brief the president but the president only has a limited amount of time so you might show up at work at two o' clock in the morning to start prepping for a seven am delivery to the president only to then not actually get your time but you still log off at two o' clock that'd.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Be a bummer but i guess you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Still show up and stand there in case he asks any questions you still.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Make the commute from langley to the white house every day like you you go through all the motions as long.

[Andrew Bustamante]

As they give you bagels it's fine government pay put white house bagels though white house bagels i don't know west wing bagels yeah that's a shop right.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

There somebody needs to come up with that west wing bagels i would go.

[Andrew Bustamante]

There it probably exists already we're have to google that i should have asked this earlier how come you can talk about being a former clandestine operative in the cia but other people who come straight out can't do that there's obviously.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Some kind of so we were talking just a few minutes ago about how you have to have your cover rolled back when your cover is rolled back you are made an overt employee because they basically clear what you can and can't talk about from your operational history and then also give you the bureaucratic check mark that takes you out of the COVID category and into the overt category now in twenty fourteen when my wife and i left it was very rare that people would leave they were seeing an increase in people leaving but like i said in the entire year from our peer group we only knew of three other people total attrition in cia in the year that we left in twenty fourteen was less than one and a half percent so they were losing like one undercover officer a month on average for a year and the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Classes of these are not huge right.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

They were big during the war on terror i mean you're talking about two to three hundred person classes that are being cleared multiple times you're losing twelve.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Guys a year that's a lot it's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

About under ten percent of your clandestine core but that attrition is agency wide all overt and all retirees i mean it's not many people that are leaving the first year of donald trump when donald trump became the executive and cia falls under the executive branch then they saw a massive attrition to the point where i think at its peak it was thirty officers per month that were leaving so in twenty fourteen when my wife and i left we put in our resignation we got our leave without pay status they told us it'd be six months of leave without pay if we changed our mind and then they would start the COVID rollback process and it would take an estimated two years it took exactly two years so in twenty sixteen early spring of twenty sixteen we got our official rollback letter it took them two years to review us everybody who left after that became part of a wait list i know people right now who left in twenty seventeen who are still waiting on a cover rollback and that's what's created this incredible network of we call ourselves alumni this incredible alumni network of cia former cia all around the world where we know what each other can do and we also know the difficulties of being able to document it so people are always trying to help each other there's entire linkedin networks dedicated to cia alumni who are trying to help each other i.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Assume many of these people have had the idea to start a company where you just hire former agents because everyone if everyone's desperate for a job and they're highly qualified but they can't talk about it except with other people who have clearance then you could clean up if you were hiring arguably yeah you.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Know it's funny because this idea has actually started a few times people have tried to do this but what ends up happening is everybody's a f cking government employee and they have no concept of how business works so you might start a business and you might understand how business works and you're like oh this is going to be great i'll get all these qualified former cia people and then we'll all create a consultancy and we'll go in together they don't know how salaries are determined and they don't have any concept of profitability and they don't have any concept of operating cost versus fixed cost and long term growth and what a growth rate is an investor payback the employees just don't know that so you might start a company and you're like this is going to be great and then your first handful of cia officers come in for the first two months they're happy to have a job but then after that they're like why the are you paying me one hundred thousand dollars a year but you take home three hundred thousand dollars a year i want to raise and they're like no no you don't understand i'm the business owner i take the risk and they're like no you're cia i'm cia i don't see the difference and this is not just a cia phenomena this is former navy seals this is former marsoc raiders this is former nsa when they come out they just they don't have any concept of meritocracy real meritocracy they don't have any concept of profitability so they can't speak business that is unfortunate because otherwise they.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Would clean up yeah all you have to do is you do a good job for a while and you start to earn a lot more money instead of just looking for the next best.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thing all right we're talking about cold war vibes number stations and deep fakes but first a word from a company that definitely probably maybe won't sell your ip address to a hostile actor stay tuned we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by grammarly here's some real talk whether people admit it or not they judge you by how you write you send an email with sloppy grammar typos and boom people subconsciously.

[Andrew Bustamante]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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Guy was a little bit smarter all that stuff it adds up especially with.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

That'S why i use grammarly it's not.

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That you want smart confident professional all those things that i'm not but want to appear as in an email it takes you from rough draft to polished final version all in one place whether.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It'S emails proposals presentations grammarly gives you real time feedback that makes your writing land better i've had grammarly save me on a tone when i didn't want.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To come across as too stiff or.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Too casual it's helped me brainstorm when i was stuck and most of all it is a time saver ninety percent.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Podcast this episode is sponsored in part by airbnb we just booked our very first cruise with the kids and we could not be more excited seriously can spring break get here any faster the kids are already bouncing off the walls and honestly i will too once i see those water slides and all the onboard activities it's basically a floating adventure playground and it feels like the perfect mix of relaxation for us and exploration for them but here's the thing while we're out at sea our home back on land just sitting empty and that's what it hit me why let it sit unused when i could actually have it work for us by hosting it on airbnb with their co host network you can even hire a local pro to help take care of everything from guest messages to check ins so you're not trying to juggle it all from the middle of the ocean and here's the best part we get to enjoy the cruise create these family memories and know that our place was earning a little extra while we were away so if you've got a spot that just sits empty while you're away why not let it work for you find a co host at airbnb dot com host this episode is also sponsored in part by ag one i've had my morning routine down with ag one for a while now but lately i've been paying more attention to how i end the day too because a good morning really starts with the night before that's where agz comes in it's a nightly drink.

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Like that it gives me an easy way to get more magnesium into my diet it's been a nice addition to.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Jordan if you like this episode of the show i invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do that is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible all of the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger dot com deals if you can't remember the name of a code you can't find the code please email us the team would love to help you out with this we are happy to surface codes for you jordanordanharbinger dot com will reach somebody here it is that important that you support those who support the show now for the rest of part one with andrew bustamante i know.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You and a few folks like ryan macbeth i don't know if you know him you've said world war iii has already started you still think that yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

I don't think world war iii looks like world war two but i do believe that whatever we are referring to when we talk about a world war it seems to me like we have more indicators that we are in a world war rather than we are not in a world war what are you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Looking at indication wise i look at.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

The number of active conflicts around the world right now in the united states we're very focused on two or three conflicts we're focused on israel we're focused on ukraine and afghanistan russia and then sometimes we're focused on something else like china drug cartels whatever yeah maybe it's mexico maybe it's china encroaching on us whatever but that's what we think conflict is there's actually one hundred sixty one active conflicts around the world right now one hundred sixty one different conflict zones where bullets are being fired and explosions are going off the oldest conflict zone is actually colombia out of all those one hundred sixty one and nobody even thinks about conflict in colombia when you look at each of those conflicts it's not just one group against another group in the same country or even across a state boundary it's multiple countries engaged in supporting one side or another side of the concept proxies yeah and that proxy conflict is unique proxy conflict didn't really exist prior to maybe twenty twenty five years ago everything before that was basically either interstate or intrastate what about.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Vietnam and stuff like that i mean that was a proxy conflict that was.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

A proxy conflict that originated as an intra state conflict that was inside north and south vietnam initiating on their own and then everybody else coming to the table whereas many of the conflicts that we see now are instigated by external.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Factors i see what you mean there's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

An economic benefit that's what first world countries have learned there's a massive economic benefit to war where you are supporting it but not engaged in it yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Definitely this is russia's game initially it's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

The united states game too a lot.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Of people thought world war iii was going to look like another world war two but it kind of looks like the cold war instead at least as far as like proxy conflict we always.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Try to find a way to frame something coming up with something we understand from the past of course that's what history's for yeah yeah but it's very difficult to do that like modern weapons the battle lines in ukraine look more like world war one than they look like world war two with the trenches.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You mean and all that stuff except.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

For the drones and the drones are different but now the drones look more like balloons right remember the balloons transformed the world war one landscape dropping bombs from gliders transformed world war one and then that's what gave us the idea for actual bomber jets and bomber planes in world war two and now we've got drones dropping grenades drones acting as kamikazes it's a whole different evolving landscape and that's what we need to understand when people think world war three the common misconception is that a nuclear weapon must be used if you're waiting for a nuclear weapon to go off that's not going to be world war three if a nuclear weapon goes off we just entered a whole new the end of world war three of nuclear conflict and i don't think our chances of a nuclear weapon going off are getting less each year i actually think they're getting to be more each year but i don't know why people think it's going to look like a thermonuclear weapon being launched from a missile silo and going off in the middle of a first world country that's not what it's going to look like it's going to look like a tactical nuke or international waters you could imagine seeing a dirty bomb or a tactical weapon being used who knows and the attribution of that weapon being unclear is that even possible.

[Andrew Bustamante]

To deploy a tactical nuke and not.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Get caught doing it i didn't say they wouldn't get caught the attribution of the weapon oh you'd see who launched.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It but maybe not who provided it.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Correct so just basic thought experiment a nuclear weapon that's put into a grenade launcher like a shoulder mounted grenade launcher makes its way from russia to belarus and then from belarus it's actually used in kiev who's responsible for that the russians or the belarusians or the cutout that the belarusians handed it to that actually used it inside the country of.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Ukraine sure now those are just little green men they're not ours i heard you say in other interviews that you think or maybe thought putin was winning in ukraine or in terms of ukraine do you still hold the same opinion.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Absolutely if anybody thinks putin's not winning in ukraine i would love to understand.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Your logic there's i thought ukraine would be done for the most part by fall twenty twenty two and that the east the south et cetera would be.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Taken by then only reason that didn't happen was because of the counteroffensive that was supported and mounted by the west in august of twenty twenty two and nobody really saw that coming and there was a big feint like predominant intelligence at the time both overt and covert said russia wants to go south russia wants to connect a land bridge that goes all the way to odessa so they can basically close off the black sea and they own everything ukrainian that's strategically sound that's what many analysts said and then the counteroffensive feigned an attack in the south but actually was a counter offensive in the north which made sense for them because it it ensured that they could harden their nation's capital and they could push back very thinly stretched russians but that whole southern corridor never really got closed off the lines of conflict in the south have barely moved when we had this conversation in twenty twenty three twenty percent of ukraine was controlled by russia now seventeen to eighteen percent is still controlled by russia and russia keeps on pushing gaining fractions a day fractions a week whatever you want to call it and the us is no longer supporting ukraine significantly europe is struggling to support ukraine ukraine's built their own drone business they're trying to essentially pay for their own war moving forward like it's a completely different world but the one consistent factor has been russia's ongoing self funded self initiated efforts now yes they've joined forces with iran and china to gain some benefits but it's not like china or iran has been pulled into this conflict and they're.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Not cutting a check really for the the arms or anything like that what.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Do you think of the drones hitting.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Poland from belarus and russia because belarus news says we warned the poles this is an electronic warfare thing the navigation failed and i'm like they're just testing nato's defense in response what do you think the truth is i think it's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Somewhere in between we've also seen where ukrainian anti rocket efforts have deflected russian rockets into poland we've seen that happen too war has collateral damage war has things that don't happen in nice boxes so it doesn't surprise me that we're seeing drones crashing in a nato country it also doesn't surprise me that poland of all countries would exercise i think it was article four of the nato agreement where all countries have to come together and have a joint conversation about what they're going to do should we make sure that's article four i think it's article four i think article five is the joint defense article where they have to come to defend each other oh yeah okay but they initiated one article and the other article the more severe article is still on standby but it's not surprising to me that it happened i think what's surprising to me is it hasn't happened more i also.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Agree i thought that was surprising because my friends in poland i have a bunch of friends in poland and they're like everybody's worried i just canceled my vacation because you don't want to be outside the country if we have to emergency get back or you know we're stuck something like that i don't know about the logic there i feel like if you were going to sri lanka now's a good time to maybe stay there for a while but whatever poland.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Is also the most culturally opposed to russia of almost anybody else in nato like they're the most paranoid they're the most secure they're the most aggressive rhetoric so it's kind of a hard temperature.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Gauge i would not screw with poland if you think ukraine's shown remarkable resilience and toughness poland is going to i mean they have a lot more weapons they're way better armed and they're like you said more scared and they have their crap together way more than way less way less corrupt than ukraine and they have what three plus years of notice of seeing what happens when russia says don't worry it's just a military exercise and they've been next to belarus forever and that's always been like kind of a well russian funny how we're.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Just now we just touch on ukraine's corruption now like the rhetoric in twenty twenty three twenty twenty two was that ukraine wasn't corrupt as somebody who lived.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In ukraine i'm like excuse me i got robbed at the airport by customs so i never believed that crap i'm.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Just saying you are internationally traveled enough to have known the truth but the average american person believed we were fighting in ukraine because ukraine was a democracy we were fighting for ukraine because ukraine was a democracy and we were defending democracy and nobody would touch the corruption there until two years later when zelenskyy himself just to re win favor from europe had to root out corruption he was like hey guys we've been corrupt for a long time we lost a bunch of money so we're gonna get rid of all these generals and ministry.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Leaders yeah look i'm not no shade on the ukrainian people they're brave resilient i loved ukraine i just got robbed by the cops one of the things they multiple times one of the main things that all of my ukrainian friends told me was if the police talk to you just ignore them pretend you don't speak russian and i was like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That doesn't sound from an american perspective that sounds like a really bad idea what do i do they're like walk.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Or run away and i'm like that's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So un american yeah and then they were like whatever you do don't get.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In the car and other like older americans who were there who were like importing tractors they were like just don't get in a police car i'm like.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay why do people keep saying that and they're like because they're going to.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Extort you they can lock you in there and you have to dig out your wallet and pay to get out so another american guy he's like any.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Advice i was like hey you're new here i'll tell you what everybody told me if a cop talks to you don't talk to him and don't get.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In the car and he's oh okay and then a week later he's dude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I didn't follow your advice a cop.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Talked to me and i got in the car and then he locked me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In there until i emptied my wallet and i was like oh so it does happen all right and i remember.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Cops talking to me too and i was just like sorry no russian no rushing and just like duck into a hotel here's a pro tip if you're.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In an authoritarian country duck into a.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Nice fancy hotel or business duck into.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Any business owned by a really rich person that's nice because rich people are above the police and the police are not going to go into the equivalent.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Of the four seasons in odessa ukraine and start screwing around with the people who are staying there because those people are the clients of the oligarch that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Owns the property chain not somebody that.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You want to mess with if you're a cop who is trying to get lunch money so that was always my trick it was like if someone's messing with me i'm like let me just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Go in my hotel and grab it.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Real quick and i'm just i'm not coming out i'm sitting there talking to the concierge i remember talking to the concierge at a five star hotel in odessa or maybe whatever it was a city in ukraine wherever i was and i said the cops are outside and he goes oh you can just stay here you want some coffee i was like yeah sure and the cop eventually sort of like wandered in to look and the concierge i didn't understand what he said but it was basically the equivalent of get out of here right now or i'm going to call my boss who's going to call his boss who's going to call your boss's boss and you're going to be outside with a empty pot collecting change after this because that cop was basically like this and then just sort of like oh you know like one of the hands in the air shuffle away kind of things and i remember seeing that cop because he would always screw around in the cyber cafe he didn't have internet at home and i remember being like he was just like oh i'm not going to screw with that guy because he's staying at the whatever and i just remember being like wow that's a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Solid pro tip works yeah it's a.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Pro tip duck into any hotel duck into any any restaurant any probably it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Probably unless if state security is chasing you that's different they have cause but if it's a traffic cop that wants.

[Andrew Bustamante]

A bribe and you're in i don't know bosnia go back to a five star hotel or any business that's internet you know a nice one and they are just not going to screw with you generally no guarantees don't at me if this gets you beat up it's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Better than getting beat up you probably.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Won'T get beat up if you're inside the hotel or inside the business very.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Unlikely right exactly so what do we think is going to happen in ukraine i mean they're kind of a pawn at a table according to pretty much.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Everybody they've always been a pawn at a table i believe that what trump understands about ukraine is that in business terms we are a sunk cost into ukraine and we've sunk this cost in order to advance our weapons knowledge and our weapons capabilities and as a result of the conflict in ukraine we realized the importance of drones and we were able to start developing and creating new military style drones in the us and we were only five or seven years behind china who had been doing it for a longer period of time so we got those benefits from ukraine and to a certain extent the money that we paid was to help us get that experience without having to get it at the receiving end of bullets and bombs but the other side is we want to be able to rebuild ukraine when the war ends we want to be able to send out loans and lease agreements we want to be able to have american businesses that win the rebuilding contracts for western ukraine when all this is over likewise putin knows that he's gonna boost his economy by rebuilding eastern ukraine that's part of how the game works but we need the conflict to end before then it looks to.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Me a little bit like germany i'm.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not saying the ukrainians are nazi germany.

[Andrew Bustamante]

In world war two but i just mean it's gonna potentially be divided up.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

And that's what we were saying putin is a master manipulator putin is an excellent misinformation and disinformation propagandist but to a certain extent what he has done is he has made limited claims from the very beginning that now four years later we look back on and we're like putin always said that he didn't really want to take all of ukraine and he always said he didn't want to threaten its sovereignty all he said is that he didn't want them to become part of nato so now because he's been so consistent for so long now we have that as our own justification for putin has been saying the same thing for four years so we might as well trust him now that's not how he works but that's how.

[Andrew Bustamante]

He knows logic works russia needs agriculture resources that are located in ukraine the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

West basically just needs contracts like you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Said and ukraine is a buffer from russia for the rest of europe that's.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Just what europe needs that's not even.

[Andrew Bustamante]

What we need yeah yeah that's true.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

If anything i think the united states and i think donald trump knows this too if the united states does pull out of nato and if they don't have a buffer against russia they're going to have that much more of an impetus to continue increasing the defense spending and guess who's the world's number one.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Weapons exporter yeah it's going to be.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

The us it's the united states yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Depending on if we blow it because right now they are afraid to buy weapons from us because we can turn off the spigot so they're re engaging their own domestic defense industry that's the.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Missteps that the united states and this is the problem with our current political climate swinging so far left and so far right it's unpredictable it's totally unpredictable not just to us to all of our allies and our allies are not just our allies because they're democracies they're our allies because they buy our weapons they buy our tech they run their money through our financial systems they trade in us dollars that's what makes them allies when china watches us freeze billions of dollars in russian assets china's like shit we're taking our money out of the us dollar and that's exactly what you saw in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four they freedom took all of their resources out which really helped exacerbate our own inflation they didn't do it to create inflation they did it because they saw that if their money's tied up in new york it's going to get frozen but if it's tied up in dubai it won't they still.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Own a ton of american bonds i'll have to look this up seven hundred fifty billion to eight hundred billion in us treasury securities ask what the percentage.

[Andrew Bustamante's Wife]

Of us bonds owned by foreign or owned by china kind of thing because i did this research not too long ago and i was surprised by how little the number was in terms of.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Percentage two point one percent of the us national debt is owned by china sounds like a little and it is a little but it's also a lot ton of money yeah an outrageous sum billions yes oh yeah at least.

[Audible Announcer]

If.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You'Re looking for another episode of the jordan harbinger show to check out here's a trailer of our interview with jack barski former kgb spy who posed as an american in a truer than life version of a hollywood movie this is one of our most popular episodes of the show jack not only dodged the fbi for decades but also defected from the soviet union secretly becoming a real american we'll learn how spies were recruited and trained during the cold war and what skills jack used to assimilate seamlessly into american culture i was untouchable i.

[Jack Barsky]

Was above the law i was always bypassing customs and passport control so a young person that really feels good because i never liked rules how did you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Flip to eventually becoming full american i.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Know they tried to call you home can you take us through that they.

[Jack Barsky]

Called me back as an emergency departure they have done this in the past to call back an agent and as soon as they step on soviet soil they are jailed or even executed i was stalling the soviets and then one day they send one of their resident agents and he said to me you gotta come home or else you're dead it was a threat i decided i would defy them and tell them that i'm not returning i will not betray any secrets and please give the money on my account to my german family.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow tell us how you got caught.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Because this story is just not complete until you like you said had to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Face your past i was stopped on.

[Jack Barsky]

The other side of a toll gate that was was a state trooper just like to check your license and registration and could you step out of the car i stepped out of the car still not having a clue what was going on out of the corner of my eye somebody approaching me from the back the fellow introduced himself he says joe riley fbi and he showed me this badge we would like to talk with you the first question i asked am i under arrest and the answer was no then i said what took.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You so long for more from jack barski including how jack was finally caught by the fbi and what happened after that check out episode two hundred eighty five of the jordan harbinger show that's it for part one part two out in a few days if it's not already all things andrew bustamante will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger dot com advertisers deals and discount codes ways to support this podcast all at jordanharbinger dot com deals please consider supporting those who support the show also our newsletter wee bitwiser very practical very specific rubber meets the road it's almost every wednesday and it's an under two minute read nothing heavy duty if you haven't signed up yet i invite you to come check it out it really is a great companion to the show jordanharbinger dot com news is where you can find it don't forget about six minute networking as well over at sixminutenetworking dot com i'm ordanharbinger on twitter and instagram you can also connect with me on linkedin love to see you there this show it's created in association with podcast one my team is jen harbinger jace sanderson robert fogarty tata sidlauskis ian baird and gabriel mizrahi remember we rise by lifting others the fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about if you know somebody who's interested in espionage tradecraft the mossad epstein iran or ukraine definitely share this episode with them in the meantime i hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time this episode is sponsored in part by what was that like podcast what does it feel like to watch your house burn down be attacked by an alligator or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you if you're dying to know then what was that like is the podcast for you what was that like is filled with real stories about the most surreal experiences of people's lives on the show host scott johnson dives deep with his guests into the unbelievable situations they found themselves in animal attacks plane crashes winning the price is right and more this show brings you tons of completely surreal completely true stories all told through the lens of the person who experienced it check out some of these wild and gripping stories to gain some insight on what it was like to lose a leg to a shark attack and what it was like to be a professional bridesmaid totally fascinating episodes so if you want to hear some disturbing and inspiring firsthand stories you need to check out what was that like every story is thoroughly researched and fact checked so you know even the most bizarre.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Tales are someone's reality listen to what.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Was that like on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.