The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1221: Andrew Bustamante | A Spy's Guide to Our Dangerous World Part Two

Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Guest: Andrew Bustamante (ex-CIA officer, founder of Everyday Spy, author of Shadow Cell)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode—part two of Jordan Harbinger’s conversation with former CIA covert officer Andrew Bustamante—dives into modern espionage, the practical realities and ethics of surveillance, disinformation, complex global conflicts (including Epstein, Israel/Palestine, and Iran), and essential spycraft skills the average person can use. The conversation is refreshingly candid, mixing real-world intelligence insights, dark humor, and grounded takes on hot-button geopolitical topics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life in Surveillance States (UAE, China, North Korea)

• Bustamante describes living in the UAE as a “surveillance state,” noting the mix of safety and loss of privacy:
  • "There's a lot of conveniences that come from living in a surveillance state... it’s so convenient, it's so safe, it's so efficient." – Andrew Bustamante, [01:09]
  • Every person has a national ID, integrated with bank accounts, passports, and driver's licenses.
  • Speeding tickets get processed and paid instantly through linked systems.
• Contrast with other states:
  • North Korea: Less of a real surveillance state due to limited infrastructure, more “tattletale state.” ([03:02])
  • China: Foreigners often experience the best conveniences, but rural citizens face much harsher realities.

2. Deep Dive: Epstein, Intelligence Assets, and Blackmail

• Terms clarified:
  • Officers (work for agencies), Assets (source information, often outside formal government ranks). ([04:14])
• Epstein's likely role:
  • Despite rumors, Bustamante asserts Epstein was not a CIA officer or asset. Legal barriers make it nearly impossible for CIA to use Americans involved in crimes as assets.
  • Suggests Epstein was probably an FBI informant:
    • "He would have a letter... that says he's allowed to do all these things in the best interest of this FBI investigation against 55 other people." ([06:04])
    • Immunity agreements protect informants—even posthumously—so the FBI avoids exposing them to maintain credibility with other sources.
  • On Epstein’s crimes: “There's no way to sugarcoat that. You can't get a letter that allows you to do that from the FBI. Theoretically.” – Jordan Harbinger, [07:32]
• Popular obsession with blackmail:
  • Blackmail is “the weakest form of persuasion... People believe it's such a big deal because of movies and television.” – Andrew Bustamante, [10:05]
  • In the age of deepfakes and instant denials, blackmail becomes less effective, especially at international levels.

3. The Nature of Secrets and Public Amnesia

• "Memory hole" concept:
  • The government often outlasts public outrage; controversial stories fade quickly. ([11:43])
  • “People just completely forget... the government understands the memory hole. People don't pay attention long enough.” – Andrew Bustamante, [11:43]

4. Government Power and the Reality of Rights

• Passports as government property:
  • Many Americans mistakenly believe personal documents (like passports) are their property.
  • “That is not yours. The government… owns that document.” – Jordan Harbinger, [12:26]
  • Anecdote: Stickers or unsigned passports can lead to trouble at borders.

5. Everyday Spy Skills

• Spycraft’s daily applications:
  • Influence, persuasion, human behavior analysis—skills used in business and everyday life.
  • “The process of creating an asset ... that process is age-old. It's predictable human behavior. It's nothing more than building the experience of an intimate relationship that's artificial.” – Andrew Bustamante, [13:56]
• Example: Bustamante built his business, Everyday Spy, by applying these principles to real life.

6. Cover Identities in the CIA

• Post-9/11 changes:
  • Covers became benign and boring by design to reduce the risk of operational exposure. ([15:33])
  • Officers rarely have input on their official cover; the most sustainable story is the least interesting.

7. Social Media and Information Warfare

• Weaponizing platforms:
  • Social media is “not a battleground, it's a mosh pit”—all offense, no coordinated defense. ([18:49])
  • State actors (e.g., Russia, China) use cheap, chaotic influence campaigns to drain adversaries’ resources.
  • “It's an active weaponization.” – Andrew Bustamante, [18:46]
• Cost asymmetry:
  • Disinformation campaigns are cheap to run but expensive for others to counter.

8. Clumsy and Sophisticated State Influence

• China vs. Russia operatives:
  • Chinese efforts often “bull in a china shop”—messy but intentionally overwhelming, exploiting their own perceived omnipresence to distract from higher-level operations. ([24:20])
  • Russian operations: Clandestine, leave as little evidence as possible—sometimes using false-flag tactics for deeper cover.
  • "Russia is the opposite. Russia doesn't want anybody to know they were there." – Andrew Bustamante, [25:27]

9. Israeli/Palestinian Conflict and Why the US Backs Israel

• Realpolitik rationale:
  • "Israel is good for us. ... Israel serves as almost like a watchdog that keeps Iran and all the threats from the Middle East over there first." – Andrew Bustamante, [27:23]
  • US support is about strategic security; Israel’s regional moves benefit both America and its Gulf allies, especially Saudi Arabia.
  • On Qatar: Critical node for both US presence and Islamic extremist financing. ([29:32])
• Public messaging vs. diplomatic reality:
  • "They will 100% continue to support the Israeli government, even if it means Netanyahu has to fall at some point in the future." ([32:24])

10. Hostage Situations & The Reality of Leverage

• Hostage cases are highly situational; leverage remains as long as hope of the hostage being alive exists.
• “Hostages don’t live. And when they don’t live, ... they lose their value as leverage.” – Andrew Bustamante, [32:40]

11. How Iran Projects Power & Funds Proxies

• Primary adversary is Saudi Arabia (Sunni vs. Shia power):
  • "Iran's primary point of conflict isn't even with the United States, it's with Saudi Arabia." ([36:17])
• Proxy tactics:
  • Proxies like Hezbollah are semi-funded, semi-autonomous, sustaining themselves through local criminal activity and Iranian stipends. ([37:35])
• Countering proxies:
  • Western agencies “follow the money.” Decentralized currency complicates tracking—Bustamante is skeptical of its social value. '[39:00]'
• On cryptocurrency:
  • “The primary use case for decentralized currency is criminal activity.”
  • "Thank you, Bitcoin, for making a bunch of bad guys really rich because your price is going up so much for something that people can't use in a pizza shop." ([39:00])

12. Deny, Disrupt, Destroy: CIA Counterterrorism Mantra

• Intelligence agencies prefer to monitor, not always intervene immediately.
• “Intelligence collects intelligence, very rarely ever interrupts.” ([39:37])

13. The Limits of US Intelligence in Iran

• US dependence on foreign intelligence:
  • "American insight into Iran is only as good as the assets that we have in Iran ... we don't have very good assets in Iran."[41:10]
  • As much as 40% of US intelligence may come from foreign services, creating risk of manipulation/disinformation.
• Historical cautionary tale:
  • During the Clinton administration, both key US Cuba analysts were Cuban agents; false information was fed to the President from "separate" sources. ([42:45])

14. Information Operations, Meetings & Friction

• Intelligence operational culture:
  • Israel often amplifies its own successes to project deterrence, creating psychological pressure.
  • US policy: Denial. US downplays or outright denies covert involvement even when obvious. ([50:36])
  • Soviet-era KGB actively encouraged the culture of endless meetings in the US bureaucracy as a form of sabotage:
    • "The more Americans are in meetings, the less anything is getting done." ([53:51])

15. China’s Real Strengths and Weaknesses

• China as a “perceived juggernaut”:
  • “They can’t innovate like we can innovate. ... They can’t build ideological relationships ... which makes everything they do very pragmatic.” – Andrew Bustamante, [57:47], [59:03]
• Authoritarian efficiency vs. innovation stagnation:
  • Decision-making is fast, but bad news rarely travels up, stifling meaningful reform or creativity.
• Population/infrastructure strains:
  • China joined the technological world mid-leap, skipping wired infrastructure—but this also means vulnerabilities if modern systems fail.[59:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Blackmail & Deepfakes:

  • “Blackmail is the weakest form of persuasion... As soon as it’s publicly available, the person who receives [it] is like, it’s a fake, it’s a phony.” – Andrew Bustamante, [10:05]

• On Hostages:

  • “Hostages don’t live. ... As long as you believe they’re alive, whether or not they’re alive, you have leverage.” – Andrew Bustamante, [32:40]

• On Israeli Strategy:

  • “Israel is also an information warfare machine. ... They love getting people to think that all those people were in one place because of Mossad influence.” – Andrew Bustamante, [49:49]

• On Social Media:

  • “It’s not really a battlefield. It’s just the giant lava pit... All the defenses we kind of outsource... but nobody’s trying to actively identify the fake information.” – Andrew Bustamante, [18:49]

• On Ignorance & Social Media:

  • “If there’s anything I blame, it’s the individual ignorance... in their inability to separate Hamas from Muslim, Hamas from Palestinian, and Israel from Jew.” – Andrew Bustamante, [34:38]

• On China's System:

  • "It's those [authoritarian] issues that also prevent them from being the juggernaut that we're all so afraid of." – Andrew Bustamante, [57:47]

Important Timestamps

• 01:09–03:03 Living in and understanding surveillance states
• 04:14–07:55 Epstein: Assets, officers, informants, legal barriers
• 10:05–10:52 Blackmail’s ineffectiveness, especially in the deepfake era
• 13:56–15:11 Applying spy skills to daily life and business
• 15:33–17:19 The evolution and selection of CIA “cover” stories
• 18:46–20:41 Weaponization of social media in global influence operations
• 24:20–25:27 China and Russia comparative approaches to information operations
• 27:23–32:24 US strategic rationale for supporting Israel, and the domino effect in Middle East power politics
• 32:40–35:40 Hostage dynamics and public perceptions
• 36:17–39:08 Iran’s use of proxies and funding, Western intelligence challenges, and the criminal use of crypto
• 41:10–43:29 Weak points in US intelligence, heavy reliance on foreign intel, and historical failures
• 49:49–50:43 Israeli information ops—projecting power and using narrative manipulation
• 53:51–54:45 KGB’s advice: More meetings = less US efficiency
• 57:47–60:31 China’s innovation weaknesses, authoritarian drawbacks, and long-term vulnerabilities

Additional Highlights

• Book Launch: Andrew’s memoir Shadow Cell released after three years of CIA review, featuring content the Agency initially classified. ([56:00])
• Geopolitical Reality Checks: Calls for critical thinking and nuance when interpreting international events and government actions.
• Humor & Personality: The episode is laced with dark humor, frank language, and genuine back-and-forth between guest and host, making complex topics more accessible.
• Practical Takeaways: Emphasizes that spy skills—persuasion, reading people, influence—are grounded in everyday psychology and can be used by anyone.

Conclusion

This episode illuminates the world’s underbelly—from global power games and the myth of blackmail to the “real story” behind state influence and the true vulnerabilities of authoritarian systems. Andrew Bustamante’s operational clarity and Harbinger’s skepticism make this essential listening (or reading) for anyone interested in espionage, geopolitics, or just surviving in a world built on narrative warfare.

Resources:

• Andrew Bustamante’s book: Shadow Cell
• Everyday Spy: everydayspy.com
• Jordan Harbinger: jordanharbinger.com

For further listening:

• Next episode preview: Ryan Montgomery, ethical hacker (Ep. 851)

For more clear-sighted global analysis and spycraft lessons, catch every episode at jordanharbinger.com or wherever you get your podcasts.