The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1226: James Kimmel, Jr. – No Even Scores in the Science of Revenge
Date: October 21, 2025
Guest: Dr. James Kimmel, Jr. (Lawyer, Yale researcher, author of The Science of Revenge)
Main Theme: Revenge as an addictive neurobiological process, the societal consequences of retaliatory behavior, and practical approaches to break the cycle.

Episode Overview

In this candid, expertly researched conversation, Jordan Harbinger digs into Dr. James Kimmel’s provocative thesis: revenge is not merely an emotional outburst or a moral failing, but a form of addiction that activates the same circuits as cocaine, gambling, or social media. The episode explores the neuroscience of revenge, its impact on individuals and society, its role in violence and politics, and why forgiveness—far from being “just letting go”—is the necessary neurological antidote. Through science, personal stories, and surprising insights, Jordan and Dr. Kimmel challenge listeners to reexamine their own compulsions for payback and consider a more compassionate, effective path forward.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revenge as a Form of Addiction

• Neural Pathways: Retaliatory behavior activates pleasure and reward centers in the brain, specifically the same “addiction circuitry” involved in drug use and gambling.

  “Retaliatory behavior activates the same neural pathways as cocaine, gambling, and social media. The dopamine hits, the cravings, the withdrawal—all of it.”
  —Jordan Harbinger (03:10)

• Dopamine & Craving: The desire for revenge gives a short, intense dopamine rush—much like a hit of a drug—but leaves the person feeling worse after the high fades.

  “When we’re in pain, we feel victimized...our brain wants that pain to stop. And the most immediate way...is to get a dopamine rush...hurting the person who wronged us.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (09:13)

• Addictive Personalities: About 20% of people may become “revenge addicts,” seeking gratification through continual acts of retaliation.

2. Personal Origins: Dr. Kimmel’s Bullying and Revenge Fantasy

• Childhood Trauma: Dr. Kimmel shares his harrowing experience of rural bullying, culminating in the revenge killing of his dog and a night when he nearly retaliated with lethal violence.

  “I had come within seconds of almost committing a mass shooting.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (24:54)

• Impulse Control: He credits his decision not to pull the trigger to a split-second realization—his prefrontal cortex performing a “cost-benefit analysis.”
• Long-term Effects: The shame he felt for not “being tough enough” highlights the cultural and psychological baggage attached to revenge.

3. Societal and Evolutionary Roots of Revenge

• Historical Context: Revenge has fueled wars, terrorism, genocide, and cycles of social violence for millennia.

  “Almost every form of human violence...has at its root the perpetrator now feeling victimized first, and seeking justice in the form of revenge.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (13:41)

• Evolutionary Adaptation: Revenge once served as a deterrent in small-group societies, enforcing social norms and deterring predation. Today, these same instincts are often maladaptive and fuel never-ending cycles of violence.

4. Revenge vs. Justice, Schadenfreude, and Self-Defense

• Revenge is about actively causing pain as payback, not merely enjoying the misfortune of others (schadenfreude).
• Self-Defense vs. Revenge: Self-defense addresses threats in the present/future and activates the amygdala, while revenge is backward-looking and tied to the addiction circuitry.

  “Revenge is always looking backwards in time...chaining you to the past. Self-defense is protecting yourself in the present or future.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (42:00)

5. Warning Signs and Societal Consequences

• Warning Signs: Obsessive grievance collection, inability to let go, voiced fantasies about revenge, fixation on weapons or detailed plans—these are red flags for potential violence.

  “Start thinking about revenge attack like a heart attack—it should be why we call 911.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (54:18)

• America as a Revenge Culture: The justice system, political discourse, and media reinforce cycles of revenge and grievance, rather than emphasizing forgiveness or reconciliation.
• Social Media: Platforms amplify perceived victimization and offer instant avenues for retaliation, contributing to societal “revenge addiction.”

  “When we pay a ticket to see one of those movies, we’re buying the drug...Revenge plots and superhero movies are among the biggest-grossing forms of entertainment.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (75:09)

6. Gender Differences & Empathy

• Both men and women desire revenge, but studies suggest the male brain's empathy center goes offline during acts of retaliation; women’s does not.

  “For males, the empathy center...is dulled. For females, it remains active.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (53:23)

7. Forgiveness as Neurological Detox

• Scientific Basis: Forgiveness is not just spiritual/ethical, but a neurobiological process that deactivates pain and craving centers, offering genuine relief.

  “Forgiveness...shuts down the pain...It’s like a wonder drug superpower that anyone can use.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (73:10)

• Practical Tools: Dr. Kimmel outlines (in his book) a “Non-Justice System” role-play that allows people to process grudges, experience the urge for punishment, and then choose forgiveness—resulting in measurable declines in revenge desires.
• Opportunity for Change: Teaching forgiveness and self-regulation from childhood may be society’s best shot at curbing cycles of violence.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why revenge is sweet:

  “We do it because it makes us feel better, just the way drugs or alcohol make us feel better.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (09:01)

• On impulse control and life-changing moments:

  “What stood between me and being the convicted version of myself...was that microsecond decision—that cost-benefit analysis in my prefrontal cortex.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (26:23)

• On cultural context:

  “In some cultures where you don’t retaliate, your whole family’s in danger...In mine, they thank god I’m not dumb enough to get into a fight over it.”
  —Jordan (33:55)

• On gender and revenge:

  “Men's empathy center goes offline—women’s doesn’t. That might help explain why men carry [revenge] out to a more excessive degree.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (53:23)

• On the media and movies:

  “Hollywood is feeding this...for 20% it’s reinforcing addictive loops, and for the rest, it’s not as dangerous, but there’s no way to distinguish.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (74:34)

• On collective revenge:

  “When you have police forces and justice systems that do not respond, you’re more likely to need to resort to street justice.”
  —Dr. Kimmel (34:12)

• On practical forgiveness:

  “You don’t need to be Jesus or Gandhi in order to forgive people for serious offenses.”
  —Jordan (82:53)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:56] – Kimmel’s opening on prevalence of revenge fantasies
• [17:53] – Dr. Kimmel’s personal “villain origin story” and near-revenge act
• [25:00] – Neuroscience of addiction and revenge decision-making
• [33:55] – Cultural and societal differences in responding to threats
• [35:30] – Detailed neurobiology of revenge
• [42:00] – Cost of revenge addiction on relationships and happiness
• [54:18] – Warning signs of revenge “attacks” and public health implications
• [60:21] – On manipulative suicide threats as revenge in relationships
• [66:06] – Is revenge a real addiction, or just a natural drive?
• [73:10] – Forgiveness as a neurological antidote, not just “letting go”
• [76:20] – America as a revenge-addicted nation; restorative possibilities

Practical Takeaways & Solutions

• Recognize Revenge as an Addiction: Understand that the craving for revenge is a neurobiological addiction—and treat it as such.
• Identify the Warning Signs: Rumination, escalating grievances, verbalizations of revenge, acquisition of weapons—these are emergencies, not just “venting.”
• Forgiveness as Treatment: Practice (and teach) forgiveness as an empowering act that short-circuits the revenge craving circuit.
• Non-Justice System Exercise: Use Dr. Kimmel’s role-play process (outlined in his book) to process grievances and achieve the psychological benefit of being “heard,” then consciously choose forgiveness.
• Teach Self-Regulation Early: Instill tools to manage revenge cravings in children to break cycles of violence—both individual and collective.
• Media Literacy: Be aware of how entertainment and social media reinforce addictive revenge cycles, and cultivate critical awareness.

Final Thoughts

Jordan and Dr. Kimmel deliver a sobering yet hopeful message: The craving for revenge is universal, it’s addictive, and—left unchecked—it’s catastrophic. But we are not doomed. By understanding the science, recognizing the cycle, and arming ourselves (and our communities) with tools of forgiveness and regulation, we can rewire both our brains and our societies to seek healing rather than retribution.

Recommended:
Check Dr. Kimmel’s The Science of Revenge for actionable frameworks and deeper history; visit savingcain.org for warning signs.
If you or someone you know struggles with impulses toward revenge or is in a cycle of grudges, consider seeking resources or professional guidance.

Selected Quotes:

• “Almost anyone can be provoked to the point of committing an act of violence...Almost anyone can become a revenge addict.” —Dr. Kimmel (48:36)
• “Forgiveness...it’s not pious or soft. It’s the ultimate neurological superpower.” —Dr. Kimmel (73:35)
• “Revenge feels amazing right up until the part where you torch your life.” —Jordan Harbinger (29:32)

Supporting resources, detailed show notes, and further reading available at jordanharbinger.com